← The Ringer NBA Show
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- [00:16]
A
Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier. Joining me, Rob Mahoney. J. Kyle, man, the conference finals, we did it. We got here. Are you excited?
- [00:26]
B
How could you not be excited? Look at these matchups on the board. Justin, how are you feeling?
- [00:29]
A
I feel great. Like, how often do we actually get the matchup everybody wants in the highest stakes environments? Kyle, I could tell you're. You're just like, course it's coursing through you, the excitement.
- [00:40]
C
Yeah. I feel like I've been on a long journey. Like, I feel like I. I don't know, maybe it's like the Oregon trail where this has been so arduous and just so I feel battle hardened and ready for what's ahead of me, you know, just hungry for this matchup that's coming up, which is going to be.
- [00:54]
B
Well, I think that's the dysentery talking.
- [00:57]
C
Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. So the story I'm not gonna go into, but not dis I could. There's nowhere to go from there. But no, yeah, these both of these series, man, I think are going to be incredible. I'm pretty one one a little more interesting than the other, but they're both going to be really good, I think.
- [01:17]
A
Well, we're going to talk about both of those. Give a little preview action to the east and the west. We're also going to talk about last night's big game seven, or at least the first half of game seven. Rob, do you want to talk about that right now?
- [01:32]
B
I would like to talk about it after this.
- [01:36]
A
The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. The Conference Finals are here. Think you know how it'll go down? Take your shot with FanDuel and get closer to the action. FanDuel is the best place to bet the team's players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action. Action after tip off. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game. 21 plus select states, 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler, call 1-888-78-9777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut.
- [02:12]
D
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- [02:49]
A
All right. Game seven, Calves Pistons. I'll say this, it was nice that the Cleveland Cavaliers big advantage in the front court, especially considering how poor Jalen Dern has played this entire postseason, finally showed up. It took seven games of the second round for it to happen. But at the half, Mobley and Allen had 27 points, Donovan Mitchell, six assists in the first half. It was actually like, oh, this is how this should have worked the whole time. It just took a while, but finally teetered over. They get the win.
- [03:21]
B
I think that's a little uncharitable. I feel like both of those guys have had great moments throughout the series. Maybe not a full half where it's like, this is it.
- [03:30]
A
We're gonna knock you out.
- [03:32]
B
It was incredibly concentrated in a way that it sometimes isn't for the Cavs. And like Evan Mobley driving through Aar Thompson's chest for a dunk, Jared Allen being an incredible rim protector. But also the second that, that, you know, the. The Pistons started trapping, he was just right there at the free throw line driving in for immediate dunks. It was like the force, it was the presence, it was the consistency. I thought both those guys were amazing in this game.
- [03:57]
C
I just want to say, really, just a portrait of toughness and, and manhood there from Jess. We're gonna knock you out.
- [04:03]
A
We're gonna get you by.
- [04:06]
C
Totally. They should play. They should play that on the Jumbotron before Blazers games. And people will be so, so lit. Yeah, women fainting, the whole deal. No, it was. It was interesting to see them. You know, we used that word geometry a lot. The Cavs upgraded their geometry at the deadline by adding hardened. Yeah, I mean, I think geometry gets brought up a lot basketball. I think, like, in terms of your.
- [04:29]
A
Yeah, that makes sense. I had to retake geometry both in the end of middle school and then to start high school.
- [04:35]
B
Did you really?
- [04:36]
C
Yeah, it was tough.
- [04:38]
A
I just. I'm so bad at math. Like, I'm legitimately dumb at math.
- [04:42]
B
Well, the finale of this season, once the finals wrap, we're going to make you do proofs on air. Just, I mean, just for shits and giggles, just for content.
- [04:49]
C
No Pressure to see what you're capable of. Wait, are we all three, Like, I mean, I guess it stands to reason. We work for the ringer and we write about basketball. None of us are math people. I feel like Rob probably overachieved though, right? I mean, right or wrong? No. Okay. Because I was, like, barely getting by with math. Mainly an effort thing, I think. But anything that was, like, memorized these facts, I was like, great. You know, I could. I could get through history and anything. Anyway, Geometry, also bad. Algebra, also bad. Love logic, though. I was philosophy major. They're kind of, you know. Anyway, there we go. Another thing to impact for another time. No, the geometry. They upgraded their. The quality of theirs at the deadline with the addition of hard, like, regardless of how you feel about them. And you could pick at him. And we have. And people enjoyed that. I could tell. But I think there are a lot of things that are true at once. I think in that game in particular, I don't know if it was necessarily that they hit on something that Detroit had been taking away. I do think their effort was overall, weirdly, way better than Detroit's or Detroit got demoralized, whatever the reason was. But the ball was humming at different points, you know, and I think maybe the. The sudden urgency of getting out to Sam, you know, Mountain West, Luca Merrill, or, you know, the bigs, just playing more aggressive. There were a lot of good things going on for the Cavs. I mean, the ball was. I had a few clips clipped out where they were making the extra pass, and it was. It was pretty. It was nice to see them kind of realize who they were or at least take advantage of it.
- [06:16]
A
Yeah, I mean, it did help that Sam Merrill, just the spirit coursing through him in that game. I also had to wonder, like, at a certain point, did the cat. Did the Pistons just, like, run out of gas and Cade in particular? So Cade, as it stands, going into the second round, played the most minutes of the entire playoffs of one individual player. Obviously they played two game sevens, and so thus they're going to play a lot of games. But he finished with 394, which was 35 more than the second most, which is Donovan Mitchell. That's like an entire game. And unlike Mitchell, like, everything rests on Cade and the fact that he didn't have it going. Tobias also didn't have it going. It's kind of like they were already dealing with such slim margins offensively. Rob, it just felt like without him, they just didn't have a shot.
- [06:58]
B
Yeah, I. I just don't think the Pistons, even the best version of the Pistons, is capable of the sort of precision we saw from the Cavs in this game. Like they can dial up their effort, they can be really intense, but they just sort of try to run through you at every opportunity. That doesn't involve Kade having to meticulously break everything down. You just can't fake that stuff. Like you either have the secondary creation and scoring or you don't. I thought the Pistons rung as much as they possibly could out of Tobias Harris on this playoff run. Overall, he didn't quite have it in this Game seven, but that felt like a real, a real squandered opportunity getting that much out of Tobias through all of these games. And yet when you get to this sort of finish line, you're just running up against it over and over and over. I think Cleveland, to their credit, is just a little bit more well conceived in the construction of that team. It has its flaws, it has its issues, but one reason why Donovan Mitchell was so fresh and so spry and I thought just play like as purposeful and direct a game as we've seen from him maybe in his entire career, was just cutting through the defense like paper spraying out to everybody. Like he was driving a lot of that ball movement that you were talking about, Kyle. But he gets to do that because he gets to share some of the burden over the course of this series in this run with James Harden, and James Harden as a part of that too, doesn't have like every kind of no show underperforming night hung around his neck in quite the same way because he's finally reached that point in his career where James Harden can be good and elevated team, but he's not so good that you throw everything out just to build an offense around him and orient your entire world around him. So it just feels like a healthier place for James Harden, for Donovan Mitchell, for the entire Cavs organization. Like they've finally gotten enough equally balanced like load bearing players to make all of this kind of make sense for their guys. It still took them seven games, but I respect the Cav survival instincts at this point. Like they may not have played a great Game 6, but they showed up in this one in such a demonstrative way.
- [08:52]
C
Well, the Cavs, you know, the. One of the hinging sort of variables for them is touch time for Harden in particular. Now you look at his stat line and it's not crazy great. It's not good at all. I mean, 2 for 10. So he didn't shoot the ball super well, but if he dominates the ball and sticks on it a whole lot and has an inefficient game like that, it hurts you a whole lot, you know, more. Whereas you can kind of afford for him maybe not to be at his best so long as he's not sticking on it so long. And then you get it to. To Mitchell, and Mitchell just seemed to get into more of a flow like you were talking about, with this connectivity and getting those bigs and good spots. And then another thing that was sort of really working for them was the Pistons. They fit this, like, very basic archetype of, you have a. You have a great primary ball handler we talked about. The Cavs have two. You've got a rim runner who was exposed in this playoffs, and you got a movement shooter, and then you got a dunker spot guy. It's really just not very dynamic. And then you've got, you know, a shot maker who's supposed to be a little bit of a pressure release into bias. And it's like that. You can, you know, you can have a whole lot of success with that if it's, like, really hitting on all cylinders. And that one mode of offense is working really well. The, you know, the. The Cavs are in a position to make a couple of tweaks here defensively. Like, you know, Jared had a great game. He was wandering and helping off the ball like he was helping, you know, tagging on the. On the weak side because he just could ignore a sar. I'm not trying to pound that over over and over again, but he was just completely ignoring him. And when you have a guy that big, that athletic defensively bothering them, I think we should give Mobley. I don't know if we're going to get into this, but Mobley now, and I think, deserve a lot of credit on offense, too. Yep.
- [10:30]
A
Yeah. I just felt like Donovan Mitchell really played a playmaking first sort of performance in this one, and I thought he was particularly good on the dump off to those bigs. Allen was forceful at the rim, but also Mobley, like, gave you those exact things you needed. He was stretching out. And, like, when you have that extra element, like, those are the things, like, the Pistons just don't have. It's one thing if you're getting into a knife fight and this is like a tit for tat sort of thing, like, they could be in those games, but when Mobley gives them that extra juice, like, there's just nothing really to counter there. And then once you had Sam Merrill going, it just like felt like it cascaded. And so I come away from this one. I feel good about the Cavs that they finally got over the hump. They're in the Eastern Conference finals. Like, that team probably would have gotten broken up if they hadn't gotten at least this far. But for the Pistons, it's really disappointing because this was probably the logical conclusion that we were expecting, expecting this entire time that they just would not have enough juice offensively. And it's one thing where it's like, if you didn't want to swing for the fences, if you didn't want to, let's just like completely make the big trade for Law remarketing or getting the shooter at the four that we all projected for multiple months. That's one thing, right? My thing is like, they just didn't have all the sort of like just basic components to make some of their combinations work. Where it's like, Asar was so brilliant defensively this entire playoff to the point where like Kenny Atkinson was outright being like our tactical adjustment after the minutes was just not going out of sar. We just avoided him at all cost. I've never seen anything like this in the NBA. He is that good and that's, it's like, that's a credit to him.
- [12:00]
B
Yep.
- [12:00]
A
But the fact that they didn't have any sort of lineup that accounted for his offensive, like just inability to affect things spatially, it just like, it's confusing. Like, why don't you just have like a stretch five on hand so you could basically play with him as your non shooter? Like, I'm just talking about like any option. Basically. That's why they had to lean on Paul Reed so much, is because he's the guy who had offensive juice to it. I'm just like, you went out, you got Duncan Robinson, you got the plug and play shooters for kid. That had an effect. Why not just get this like one thing that we all thought would work? Because this is one of your best guys. It's very disappointing.
- [12:33]
B
I think these playoffs, though, did confirm that he's one of their best guys. We all were bullish on Asar as a prospect, but he's had, you know, health issues, injury issues. Like they're trying to figure out what to do with him. Offensively, he was still kind of a mystery box player. And I come out of this run just feeling overwhelmed by his defensive potential. Like he was making just bonkers plays all around the floor, on the ball, off the ball, completely mucking things up is Clear, like a one of one sort of defensive talent. Now that you know that, like, without question, maybe you start taking some of those team building considerations even more seriously. I'm with you, though. Like, you already had a star on your team. You were banking on either him or Ron Holland or both being good. Why would you not have more front court spacing to kind of accommodate for those guys? It does seem like the Pistons shot themselves in the foot in a lot of different ways with their caution, with their unwillingness to do anything at the deadline in particular other than jettison Jaden Ivey into the sun and bring in Kevin Herder and hope that he can help you. And it just wasn't enough. They just didn't have any of the moves that the Cavs did as far as toggling their way through this series and adjusting their spacing and adjusting their flow. The Pistons just kind of are who they are right now and they need a couple of key pieces both in, whether in the starting lineup or coming off the bench to give them that, like, that kind of toggling that you need to really go on deep playoff runs.
- [13:51]
C
Yeah, I think the, the way you frame that is the, the right way to look at it, I think, because you can, you can look at the offensive stuff that, that I was pointing to and, you know, you know, wringing my hands about. But I think the defensive thing is the thing that like exposes that this problem that we knew existed, this confirms that, like, we have to go take care of this because it showed that Asar is that important on defense, that it's like we can't have that glaring disparity between those two ends of the floor. And Justin, the thing you said about a 5, I mean, I don't know if they're going to try to draft one with. I forget which of like the 20, 21st pick, 21st. There's a couple options there for them. Or I was just thinking, I, I don't have the contracts in front of me, just like a Nas Reed type. Not that there are many of those guys out there, but just a, a quick triggered guy who can kind of get in the paint. That type of a five or a four or five is, I think would be really, really invaluable for them. And granted everybody's going to watch these playoffs and know that's what they need, so I don't know how leverage comes into play on that, but I think that's the exact type of player that they need to try to go get because Assar is Just that much of a, of an ace on, on defense.
- [14:58]
B
Well, this was also one of the tensions of the series is that the Cavs bigs were so good in part because the best version of the Pistons by the end of it was playing small like Jalen Duran was accomplishing nothing. They needed Paul Reed. They needed even the, you know, the shots in the arm from Beef Stew, although he was a little bit more of a mixed bag. And then playing smaller only fed into Jared Allen as a rim protector, Evan Mobley as an all encompassing defensive force. Like the smaller you play, the more it ended up favoring the Cavs because the Pistons version of small ball isn't real small ball.
- [15:29]
C
Yeah.
- [15:29]
A
And I understand if like they thought we're so young we're still feeling things out. I don't understand how like you go through an entire season with a son and not even have the fail safe option for you.
- [15:39]
C
There's.
- [15:41]
A
But I almost feel like they waited too long in this exploratory like let's figure things out. But where they find themselves this off season is like they basically have to get everything done in one fell swoop as the rest of the east is slowly but surely getting a little bit better. Like, oh, the margins are going to get tighter going forward. Like what if the, the Magic for instance, just had a regular, just normal regular season. That's just another team that's going to be in the mix there. So this off season they need to make a decision on Jalen Duran's restrictions, free agency, which I guess silver lining is that he's probably not going to get paid what he should have paid based off of the regular season. Now maybe that contract becomes a little bit more palatable. A star's rookie extension. Tobias is a unrestricted free agent. All of a sudden looks like maybe their second most important player as opposed to yeah, yeah. And then Dan Jenkins has a team option. You assume that they'll give him like an actual real guy contract and rip that up and give him a new one. And so you really have to get a lot done on top of improving your entire fucking offense. And so I'm glad you said the thing about Asar because I have written down here like the future of this team is Kaden Asar and we could figure everything out later, I think during. Because he's going to be a little bit cheaper now. I think you have to bring him back. His value is at his nadir. You just kind of just hope that he can get past that. But like I'm looking at this as Caden Asar. Those are my two pillars. And anything else to, like, support them, that's my goal this offseason.
- [17:07]
B
Yes. And the kind of pieces they need are not just the stretch five option. But I thought it was really telling that the Cavs start Max Stru in this game and Sam Merrill also has a big game. And their revelation over the course of it that they really need to stretch those two guys as far as they possibly could. Like, they gave Cleveland a lot of that good flow. They were benefiting from where? I mean, by the end of it, the Pistons were so desperate, they were just like leaving Sam Merrill wide open in the corner. Like, didn't know how to account for all the options on the floor. Like, the Pistons have no version of that. Like, I guess they could have put like Herder and Robinson on the floor together at some points, but they can't sustain that defensively. Like, they're not built for the, like, oh, let's shift our lineup around to do this one thing that's really important for us, that will make life easier for Cade. And instead Cage has had to like, pull blood from a stone for seven straight games. After seven straight games. And that's just. It's not fair to ask that of him. He's really good. He's clearly an unbelievable reader of the floor and processor of the game. But you have to make things a little bit easier for him in the process.
- [18:07]
C
Max Stru being like a legitimate two way player. High impact.
- [18:10]
B
Yep.
- [18:11]
C
Is picking up Cade full court such a revelation? Like, I mean, I'm trying to think back because he was an off the radar prospect that like DePaul who like just shot a bunch of threes in the heat, we're like, we can, we can teach you to do that better. So they brought him in, but I don't, I never remembered him like, point of attack attacking a star. And like you were saying, that's a huge advantage versus, like what Detroit has out there. It's like Duncan Robinson, he's a little bit bigger, but he's not going to be doing that. Like, I think that was stresses. There's a lot of credit for I think swinging kind of the tonality of this series, like in the past three
- [18:45]
A
games and he's so hot on top of that.
- [18:49]
C
Knew you were gonna. I was just watching your eyes. I was like, he's waiting for the moment.
- [18:54]
A
That's true. Well, but let's get to the CAS a little bit later. Let's just polish off the Pistons before we turn to The.
- [19:01]
B
I'm sure.
- [19:02]
C
I'm sure you want to polish off a lot of them.
- [19:05]
A
I think it's going to be tough for the Pistons this offseason in part because, like, it feels like there's pressure to get something done. I also don't know necessarily, like, what's the big old attractive package that they're going to swing Something important here because it's really like, are you interested in Ron Holland first and foremost? That's probably the carrot for anything.
- [19:23]
C
Typically, no.
- [19:24]
A
Typically, no. Right. And the Pistons weren't all that interested this postseason because didn't play him at a certain point. And then just our picks, like, we got a ton of picks, right, which is like, we're gonna be a pretty good team going forward. So, like, what is it? Like, you're counting on that some team has like an. A very overpaid star, probably older, that it wants to get off. And we'll take your young stuff just to kind of turn the page, right?
- [19:48]
B
Yeah.
- [19:48]
A
But that's like, pretty tricky because then on top of that, you also need to do some other stuff. I have some names written down here. And so like, a Trey Murphy deal that everyone's been waiting. I guess that makes a certain sense because the Pelicans are perpetually in rebuilding mode. But like, Kyrie Irving, like, is Dallas interested in that? Is Jamal Murray. Like, is Denver interested in that? Probably not, as long as Jokic is going to be.
- [20:11]
C
Wait, who's. Who's outgoing for Pistons in these scenarios? In. In your. In your.
- [20:15]
A
Well, they'd have to come up with the contracts in order to do so. Luckily, they do have some expirings between. I think Lavert is expiring. And like, Duncan Robinson's is not guaranteed.
- [20:24]
B
Not guaranteed.
- [20:25]
A
Duncan Robinson is like a critical rotation players. You have to replace him on top of that. So like, I. I'm trying to like, line up like, the incentives here. Like Kawhi, I guess, to a certain extent. But that takes you in a different direction as a team or a little less cade focused. Devin Booker. I don't think Phoenix would ever do that. And so, like, I don't know, like, where's the match here? Does anything like, appeal to you guys?
- [20:47]
B
I do think it would have to be somebody who's a little distressed or just a team that's like, really up against it financially and wary of the aprons or the implications that come with it. I mean, Julius Randle sitting right there. I don't know if he accomplishes anything for them, but he is in Desperate need of a new home.
- [21:02]
C
It seems classic Tobias Funke. But it might work for us. Like that's Couldn't you see the Wolves fans want him gone? I don't know if you've like witnessed any of their it was a disaster.
- [21:14]
B
Like, he was awful. I, I, I, look, I blame myself. I talked myself into Julius Randle so many points over these last two years because he legitimately was playing incredibly well. But then just the rug gets pulled yet again and here he is and here the Pistons are. I your larger point stands, though, Justin. Of it's going to be tricky enough to amount like the salary and the offer, and then you have to go out and find the star who's at the exact right place at the exact right time to make sense for the transaction. And I just, I don't see a lot of clean fits on the board here anymore now that the bloom has come off the rose with some of
- [21:49]
C
Detroit's prospects just filtering by bigs who get threes up. So we're assuming that spacing is, is the thing here, is the premier thing that we're looking for. I mean, you can't be like a total defensive liability. Jabari Smith nailed down for the Rockets. Noah Clowney seems like somebody who's on the margins that maybe they could talk to.
- [22:09]
A
No.
- [22:12]
C
Santi Alama, Squash Banana go down through here. I mean, there's not a lot of great options. You're kind of, you're, you're dipping down into the. Maybe Utah would want to get rid of like, you know, Kyle Filipowski. Maybe now that they have all those, all that dissonance that they're forward spots.
- [22:29]
B
It can't be someone like that. It's.
- [22:31]
C
You're, I'm trying to do something.
- [22:32]
B
You're right. You're right.
- [22:33]
C
You're going to sit on your hands and get fired. Rob, I'm trying to do something.
- [22:36]
B
I'm not trying to get fired.
- [22:38]
A
Well, they also, yeah, you're right. They need to up. They need that. Plus they need like actual legitimate pop and an upgrade. Like they need what we need we thought they needed at the deadline, plus some other stuff that they didn't think they needed.
- [22:49]
B
Yeah, well, let's, let's couch this appropriately. All of this is true. And yet they were one game away from the conference finals. They're not a disaster. If they rolled, they won 60 games. They won 60 games. If they roll back into next season with more or less the same lineup, that's going to be a really good team yet again. Perhaps Prohibitively so for the sake of their future draft picks. I think that's totally fine. I think it's fine to bank on some of these young guys continuing to get better. Jalen Duran, case in point. Like, we're very down on him right now. Maybe the contract negotiations will reflect that in terms of what the optimism is around Duran, but he's so young and he could get conceivably better. And he does flash enough supplementary stuff where it's like, you know what if those, like, free throw line jumpers are a real thing for him, maybe that's something. If he's a little bit more confident and can diversify his, like, face up driving game, then all of a sudden you have something you can work with. They just need some semblance of one on one offense from someone who isn't Cade or Tobias Harris. And right now they have so little of it, they are just like gasping for air.
- [23:52]
A
LeBron, you think. You think he'll want to go to the Motor City and just start, wow, Revive the. The motor industry out there, just getting
- [23:59]
C
a car, save American coffee.
- [24:04]
B
America is honestly a pretty good bit. We should try to just get going
- [24:07]
C
on this pod that right there made him the greatest player of all time right there. No, I think I have the solution. I think I have the solution for the off season.
- [24:15]
B
Yeah.
- [24:15]
C
Little, little. Little subtle. Subtle video leaks from a little Jalen Duran. Hakeem Olajuan Little he goes to. We've seen it many times. I'm just saying it might. It might be a nice little vibe cleanse.
- [24:30]
B
Hakeem has the best racket going. Like, show up in a gym for one day, collect a giant check as a result. How do you. How do we get that job? How do we get a paid job? Consultant. Oh, he just
- [24:43]
C
40k a pop up. It's a. I'm sure he does.
- [24:46]
A
It's like maybe at a certain point, if you're like not a celebrity, like did LeBron when he went to work out with him, he's like, well, I'll get you on the backside of this. Like, I don't know.
- [24:57]
B
I think you just got to show up with the bag of cash. Like, really? This is not a free enterprise. Now when Victor Wembanyama went to go work out with Jamal Crawford, I believe that Jamal Crawford would show up in any gym in America to teach anybody anything about basketball at any time. That just might be love of the game. Hakeem also loves the game, but the man knows how to work in industry and he clearly has like an efficiency in the market that no one else can tap into.
- [25:19]
C
Head and shoulder fake Hakeem kind of points. We don't know what he's saying for a minute. You know, I'm sure, I'm sure he charged LeBron like a premium. Right. Because it's like, you know, he needed it for that.
- [25:31]
A
Higher status consultancy is where it's at. As I'm learning as an adult, like, you just know something and you just help people, but you're not like, you don't have the burden of the results actually impacting you. Like, can I just teach people how to throw to brakes going forward? Do you think I could get any cash off of that?
- [25:47]
B
I think that would put you in like the 99th percentile of consultants. Because let me tell you the secret. They don't actually know anything most of the time. It's just they're just showing up from McKinsey and being like, hey, ax 30% of your workforce and be on your way.
- [25:59]
C
It's avoiding getting them on. You know, we're not going to give them health insurance. We just need this piece of one time info from you. That's where, that's where we get in. So yeah, I think, Justin, you should aim for that.
- [26:08]
A
Yeah. Well, check this out because right now we're going to go to break the ringer. NBA show is brought to you by fanduel. Fanduel is giving you better payouts on same game parlays all NBA playoff long. With more ways to build and more value every time you play. You can stack your picks your way for every game, every matchup and every moment. From spreads to player points to threes and more, build it all into one same game parlay and go for bigger payouts. So if you're betting same game parlays this NBA postseason, bet them on FanDuel. More options, better payouts all NBA playoffs long. So we're looking ahead to the conference finals. I'm looking at the east finals MVP odds right here. I've got Carl Towns at plus 950. That's third behind Jalen Brunson, Donovan Mitchell and then you got Towns here. I feel like Townes has a good shot at it. Playing really Well, I think. 50, 40, 90, 17 points, 10 boards, almost seven assists in the two previous playoff series for the Knicks. So I think he has a good shot at it if Brunson doesn't get it. So give me Towns +9:50 to win East Finals MVP. Head to FanDuel.com ringernba to get started FanDuel Official Partner of the NBA Player Game 21 select states 18 DC, Kentucky or Wyoming gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut.
- [27:39]
B
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- [28:11]
A
the Western Conference Finals it's the one versus the two Thunder versus Spurs part five of game one. Like I just can't remember part six. That's right, because there were five regular season performances. I just like I can't think of the last time this happened. Maybe like Warriors Rockets in the west finals where it's like those are the two teams on the collision course the entire season. Everyone was excited for it and it happened and it was sick. Jalen Williams all of a sudden back. It sounds like based on some of the quotes he was given, he could have come back against the Lakers. But they're just like now we're up three out, don't worry about it. Which, like if you're a Lakers fan, it's got to hurt.
- [28:53]
B
Well, I mean maybe stop AJ Mitchell literally one time and then you can talk.
- [28:58]
A
It's tough, but it seems like we're going to have both of these teams at full strength. So I'm excited.
- [29:03]
B
Well, relatively full strength because I think there's, you know, Jalen Williams would have been healthy enough to go. And then there's welcome back to the playoffs. J Dub, you may now have to guard Victor Wembanyama. Like that's a different level of requirement that I can't wait to see what he's up for. And I just, I love not only that we've been building to this all season, but these just seem like such perfect foils for each other, right? Like the way that Wemby like neutralizes the best small ball versions of the Thunder with his pure size. The way that Shea is exactly the kind of mid range score that someone like Wimby struggles to affect individually even though They've bogged down OKC's offense over the course of the season. I just can't wait to see, like, what answers these teams have for each other, because we've seen them play five times also in every game. There's some weird caveat happening as far as Wemby was coming back from injuries. Certain guys are in and out of the lineup. Like, this is going to be the truest test yet, for obvious reasons, of what these teams are really about and what they're capable of. And I just think they're going to bring out the absolute best in each other.
- [30:03]
C
Yeah, there's a competitive element to this where, you know, it was really funny to watch Wimby his rookie year, the way he would go through each game and just the clear, like, rage, seeing red mode that he went into whenever they went against they. Whenever they went against Chet. But there, you know, you're talking about the J dub. Part of this, too, is I think we were asking similar questions when he was coming back against the Suns. We were like, well, let's see if he can kind of tap his toe to the rhythm kind of thing. And he came out and looked like Jesus, that he was a monster. You know, he looked like the best player on the floor at times, both directions. So I'm kind of. I'm kind of inclined to think that he'll be okay. We didn't even mention that Fox has been granted Fox played pretty well on a gimpy ankle. I think you get to the point where if you turn your ankles enough, it's just like they're just broken in. You know what I mean? Because if you all had ankle problems, because I know the initial one is the turns. Well, yeah, it's just like, once you've, like, broken the seal on, like, all right, I had that traumatic event, it's like each. Each subsequent sprain is just kind of like, yeah, that hurt, but I'm all right. Like, you bounce back faster. I feel like that's been my experience.
- [31:06]
B
Yeah, you have a very different relationship with turned ankles than I do, because, yeah, after you turn it the first time, you're more likely to turn it again, and pretty short order. I. I wouldn't say it feels great, Kyle, or you're loving that part of the experience.
- [31:17]
C
I basically had joints that were like. Like, I had, like, a marionette. Like, it would just, like, just turn over. Like, I. I would just be walking, and it would just be like, boop, turn. Like, I had a year and a half of that, and it was like, that hurt for a minute, and then I was back. But, you know, eventually. But no, I mean, he he looked good. And then, you know, the other thing I think that's a really big takeaway from this is I would push back a little bit on like Wimy not affecting Shea because I think he, I was re watching a lot of where he was in, you know, in the vicinity of Shay. Definitely affects Shay.
- [31:48]
B
In my opinion, effect is strong.
- [31:50]
C
Probably the fact that Shay doesn't have the easy like sleepwalking access to the mid range that he normally has. Granted he can still get there. I think the chess match between just looking at this like from the top, you're not. So let's say you're barely into basketball. The chess match between the reigning two time MVP and a guy who is ascending to potentially be the best player in the world and the way that their styles counteract each other, I think that that is going to be incredibly fascinating and I think it's going to deliver because both of these guys are going to have ways that they can counter and go at it, which I'd be curious to go into more with you guys.
- [32:28]
A
Yeah, and it's also nice that it feels like the two things, like the two variables in order to make that sort of collision course are already like they're tuned up for this. Whereas like the spurs starters have been particularly sharp in this playoffs, they're right now like the best lineup in the playoffs, going at least one that's played a lot of minutes. 107 minutes plus 28 net and 87.3 defensive rating.
- [32:50]
C
Good job.
- [32:51]
B
Jesus Christ.
- [32:52]
A
But on the other side of that, the Thunder are shooting the hell out of the ball, which is the nice little counter to Wemby. And in particular it seems like Chet has had it going there. And that's where the wrinkle starts to really get interesting. Because if Chad's not going to be a force from outside, then you can perhaps just let Victor just sit in the paint and then like deal with the rest of it. Now if he's going to step outside and you have Isaiah Hartenstein like working the handoff game, then you have perimeter threats from your bigs. And that's probably the one thing that the Thunder didn't really have going consistently when they played the spurs the first couple times. And so I wonder if Chet is going to play like this and shoot like this. That might be the little wrinkle, little counter that they're hoping for in order to have better success than they had in the regular season where they lost four of those matchups.
- [33:36]
B
Yeah, they really need Chet in this series because I would say overall to what we were talking about, Kyle, as far as how much Wemby affects Shea, Shea still got his. Like, they were not able to take shake Elchis Alexander off the board. Still an incredible impactful score basically every time these two teams played. But overall, the effect on the Thunder offense, I mean, OKC was just really bogged down by San Antonio and specifically Victor Webanyama lurking behind everything. They also kept their turnovers way down, which prevented OKC from getting all the easy stuff in transition. And they neutralized Chad, like he was almost a zero offensively in some of these games and had his moments later in the season in some of the matchups, like finally started to pop. But not in terms of, you know, volume. By the numbers. They kind of need both. Like, they need him to be making huge, impactful individual plays, but they also need him to be a big time scorer in this series in a way that he just was not in the regular season matchup. And so if they can tap into that, it completely changes a lot of what's going on. It's just a little harder to pick the spots and even to understand what OKC's best look and lineup are going to be in a series like this. Like, how big do they want to play? How small do they want to play? What can they get away with with a guy like Wemby on the floor? It's such a unique matchup that I would not be surprised at all if the spurs take Game 1 just because San Antonio is probably the biggest adjustment for any team in the league right now playing against them.
- [34:57]
C
Yeah, I think the initial way that you do anything is thrown off by. By Wimby, you know, on the, on the, on your offensive side, like the football first option. I feel like we talked about this every single time we talked about them when, when the NBA cup was going on, it was like, all right, your first thing, you've got to have some kind of. Whether it's dummy offense or you. You have these just kind of disguised actions that flow into what you do and you try to move Wimby in some way, angle him. It's a really interesting thing where, you know, he's guarding Caruso in a lot of these matchups. But I was going to say, in terms of the preparation, man, I would love to just be a fly on the wall because you can't really totally be results based in the way that you're thinking about going at these teams. A Because they haven't been complete, you know, they were missing AJ Mitchell missing just any, any combination of players. And then also, like, looking at when these teams have lost games, neither one. I mean, like, the Thunder haven't lost since April 12th. I heard Zach rattle off some crazy stat about like, they. In the last, like 50 games, the spurs have barely lost a game. It's. It's just going to be. It's going to be fascinating to see where they choose to find wrinkles that they can attack because, yeah, these teams have changed so much and matured so much, even Harper coming on. So it's. It's been. It's been up and down, but it's also been. These teams sort of like continuing to move forward in their maturation because they're young. That's the funnest part about this. This may be the first time of many times we see them play each other.
- [36:19]
A
Yeah, I just think the J Dub component here is so essential, not only because he's typically the problem solver whenever the Thunder need to, and he was last postseason in particular. It's just like those second units with AJ Mitchell playing so well become so much more dangerous with J Dub slotting in there. And we should mention, like, the spurs second units have been pretty good. Like, just the three guards plus Kelden and Cornette are a plus 24 and 37 minutes here. And so like, they've. We talked at length about Harper's come up and like, what cast in the playoffs. In the playoffs. And. And then like, but if you try to use that lineup with a J Dub at center sort of lineup with AJ Creating and playmaking off of that, considering the success he had, particularly that Lakers series, it's just like, how are you gonna win those minutes? Because all of a sudden, like, the Thunder just have this depth and it's coalescing in a way that feels seamless. We've talked in the past about, like, how they play all different sorts of lineups during the regular season. I feel like this is the prime example of that, where it's like, you could throw in Jerry McCain for 10 minutes or not play him at all all of a sudden. Like, if we see Aaron Wiggins just playing 15 minutes because he has a little bit more size to go up against some of these guards, like, they could do that. And so I do wonder if, like, the non wemby minutes could tilt pretty significantly toward the Thunder, but only if J Dub is available. And like, that seems like a pretty, like, reductive sort of like, yeah, they need their best players, but like, J Dub to me is the one that keys all of this. And, like, if he's not there, then all those advantages for the spurs just compound over time.
- [37:51]
B
It's so cool to see a superstar's impact in that way, too. Where we're used to thinking about, oh, the minutes where Nicole Jokic is off the floor. Oh, the minutes when Steph Curry is off the floor. Like, what can you do as an opponent of those teams? And it's so much to do with, like, they're just not going to score as well during those moments. But this is like, when Wemby is off, off the floor. That is maybe the closest to daylight you're ever going to see in a series like this. And how much can you juice your offense so that in those four minutes you go on an incredibly important run that turns like, overall, the momentum of the game, that's what the spurs do to you. And I think they. They're starting to have their own psychological effect on opponents as a result. We've talked a lot about the Thunder and the way they kind of wear you down and the way they. They warp how you function offensively, but the spurs are right there. Like, a dramatically different style of defense, but a psychological battle all their own, and one that I can't wait to see the Thunder, like, try to combat and try to make sense of as they go.
- [38:45]
A
Does this feel like there's a lot riding on this for the Thunder, if only because Wemby's trajectory is so ahead of schedule? It feels like if you not only lose this, the regular season series so decisively to them, and it feels like they're just, like, building upon these advantages that only get worse as, like, some of those guards get better and better. But also, like, psychologically, if you let him, like, beat you in the playoffs ahead of schedule, like, I worry for the Thunder, they're going to be a factor for the next half decade at least, I assume. But, like, I worry if, like, that's the sort of thing where you can't come back from. If you just, like, let him get you this early in this playoffs. Like, God damn. Like, like, is it hard to recover from that?
- [39:26]
B
I think history tells us that the great ones do bounce back, right? Like, there are certainly teams that they. They have that one, really.
- [39:32]
A
But maybe that's Wemby, but it may be Wimby.
- [39:34]
B
But, like, I. I just have a hard time thinking the Thunder are going to ride off into the sunset complacent or like, big brother turned little brother by Victor Weapon Yama. Like, I think The Thunder gonna have a lot to say over maybe not even just the next half decade, but longer than that. This is a team and a construction that just is going to make sense for a long time. Shea is an unbelievable one on one score. And beyond that, there's so many wrinkles to this team that keep getting like getting turned over. The fact that they have A.J. mitchell under contract the way they do, the fact that Chet has so much in his offensive game yet to be excited explored over the next couple years. It is a huge moment. Like anytime you're this close, it's a huge moment and you can't take anything for granted as far as just being there year after year after year. But if any two teams are positioned to do it, it's these two. And so I, I kind of expect more of a back and forth over time where maybe this is the Thunders year, maybe next year's the spurs year. Like the fact that they're going to be trading off some of those advantages, but also the tactics that come with time and familiarity. That's the stuff we've been waiting for as far as like a consistent, consistent NBA rivalry in this like parody era for the league.
- [40:37]
C
Yeah, that's the flip side I guess to all of the, you know, I was praising the Thunder for having, when I said was like the most dominant talent acquisition that I can remember is the flip side to that is you have a lot of options and you know, for them to, they can't keep everybody. And I, I was trying to pull up their, their cap space, cap sheet in front of me here just to see where and when the decisions are going to have to be made. But, but let's say, Justin, what you're saying is, comes to fruition that you know, when we does get them and they're starting to think about like okay, when and where do we retool? How, you know, what are the key pieces that are going to propel this forward? Obviously I think Chet and Shea are sort of the, the place to start. Right. I think that those are the immovable things. Is that where it stops? Like is it. Or is it a threesome? You know, like. Yeah, I, I honestly think it probably is just Chet and Shea. That's where you, you, that's where you go from there. But yeah, if they, if the spurs do get them, I think that would start to play a big role because they're, you're assuming Wimby's going to be there. You're going to have to keep him in mind for whatever Whatever decisions or do you? I don't know. I'm curious what you all think about that.
- [41:44]
A
I just think about it more in terms of the stakes going into this. And I think perhaps given the rash of like, sports documentaries of late, I think about the fact that, like, how history is written by like just the. A select few, like the great ones, the great teams, all this other stuff, and we don't know that in real time that that is what's going to happen. Like, if you were to flashback to the early era Bulls, it's like, oh, can they beat the Pistons? Or like, can Michael Jordan ever win the big one? Right? And it's just like, we don't know what's going to happen. I do wonder, like, Wemby is that sort of player. Obviously injuries are going to be a concern for him. The rest of his career is going to be a concern for him. But it's just like, if you let him get ahead, like, I do wonder if he's the type of talent that could turn the page. And all of a sudden history is just him, you know? And so, like, that's what I feel going into this. Like, I feel like people should really know, like, this is an important series and it feels like that going into it.
- [42:37]
B
But what if it goes the other way? You know, like, what if. What if the Thunder are such an exercise in frustration that they have an incredible series or one in which they don't dominate, but they kind of keep the spurs at arm's distance for significant parts of it, and then it's like, oh, all that regular season shit didn't mean anything at all. Like, we thought we had an advantage in this matchup, but it turns out when the Thunder really get down to brass tacks, when they really tighten the screws, this is the kind of team they can be and this is how they can stress test us as the Spurs. I think these are two, like, they're two remarkably talented and frustrating teams to play against for a variety of reasons. And how you deal with that as a team, like, that's what dynasties are made of. That's what long term contenders are made of. It's like, what do you do with that first taste of defeat? Or the like, particularly frustrating and dispiriting kind of defeat. Maybe the series ends up being that, or maybe it ends up being the kind where it goes seven and everyone kind of shakes each other's hands and are like, man, that was just like a dog fight.
- [43:35]
C
Well, with the wolves, I think it was. This is going to Be very different. I want to make sure we give the Thunder their credit. I know we're kind of speculating about. And it's. It's so fun. You talk about the sports documentaries. It's like. Like, it's so fun to watch the ascended star be like, you know, beat the boss and sort of like go on the journey and level up and conquer everything and get validated. But it's like with the Thunder, this is a much, much different opponent than the spurs have had to pick at and sort of exploit because, you know, there isn't just one Jaden McDaniels out there that you can go get into foul trouble and then it like, changes. Like, the Thunder have incredible depth in that. In that area. Like, they have multiple guys who can kind of switch and move around and it's not like a one to one. That's their versatility on defense is. It's such an interesting juxtaposition between, like, the depth of ball handlers that the spurs have and like, the defensive versatility that the Thunder have. I think that the Thunder need to be given their. Their credit for. For what they are as. As excited as we are to kind of like see the spurs do what we hope that they could do. I mean, do you think more people are picking. Tyler and I were talking about this. You want to talk about somebody complaining about Jalen Durr and I just want to say I have never gotten more texts about. I can't believe. I can't believe. He's probably gonna kill me. I can't believe that Jelly Duran was put over Chad on. On all NBA. No, I mean, do you. Who do you think is going to be picked more? Is it the Spurs? Is there like a frogginess to pick the spurs or is it. Is it split 50, 50? I feel like most people are eyeballing. You think?
- [45:00]
A
Yeah, I think the Thunder, probably the betting odds favor them and I imagine most people would, as long as J Dub is going to be. Be healthy. Yeah.
- [45:08]
D
Yeah.
- [45:09]
A
I'm more just like trying to get into my Bob Costa state of mind where it's just like the. The Thunder dynasty perhaps in the making. But Wimy is standing in front of him hoping to blot out the sun. Like, that's. That's just me going into this. Like, there's just stakes here.
- [45:25]
B
Why do we not start every show with you doing a monologue to set the stakes, not just for what's going on in the mba, but for today on this podcast? You know, this is a moment for
- [45:35]
A
Kyle Mann I'll have to write it out, but because clearly the ascendant star. Yeah, exactly.
- [45:43]
C
The proven pedigree. Yeah.
- [45:47]
B
Let me ask you this. Along the lines of the defensive versatility that you were mentioning, Kyle. I would say it's not only in the backcourt as far as, like, what do you do with all these ball handlers? One of the funky things about this matchup is even though we saw them play each other five times, I still don't really know what the Thunders like, preferred go to defensive strategy is against Victor Webanyama at jump because all of them had something weird going on. Wemby was coming off the bench in some of those games. Guys weren't out of the lineup. I would like to put to the two of you a little guessing game, a little trivia. Who do you think on the Thunder guarded Victor Webanyama the most this season in terms of total minutes guarding him in that matchup?
- [46:26]
A
I'll guess Hartenstein.
- [46:27]
B
It is not. It's not as a Hardenstein, who is eighth on this list? Sorry, ninth on this list.
- [46:33]
A
Okay.
- [46:33]
C
Is it Caruso?
- [46:34]
B
It is not Caruso. It's Ken Rich Williams because there was one game of like, a lot of bogus minutes in which no Thunder guys played, but also to keep going down the list. It's amazing how far you have to go to even get to Chet, to even get to Isaiah Hardenstein. And I don't know what role Isaiah Hardenstein is going to play in this series exactly, or who he's going to hang against, but I do think, like, if he's able to be a significant part of it, that's going to rely on him kind of doing his best. Rudy Gobert in the first couple games of that series, impression of, like, hanging on the floor, at least challenging, like, having to guard Victor specifically, because I don't know where else you put him at this point.
- [47:12]
A
Who do you guys got? You want to make some predictions?
- [47:16]
B
I think Thunder and seven. I don't see, like, a fatal flaw here. I don't see, like, oh, here's the one little thing that's going to be the crucial turning point. I just think the turnover margin is going to be a little more favorable to the Thunder than it was in the regular season. And I don't think the Thunder offense is going to be pretty at basically any point in the series, but I think they're going to eke out just enough between Shea and J.B. dub and A.J. mitchell, who, as we alluded to, miss a lot of this regular season series. Too. So I, I think OKC is going to squeeze it out, but I mean, this is going to be an extra incredible one.
- [47:47]
C
You said fatal flaw. Yeah, they don't really have one. The only fatal flaw they have right now is their, Their, their fortune. They have to play wimy. That's their problem. And the, the transition's really interesting because that was one thing. Both of these teams have just been slapping the. Out of people in transition. And it's like you look at the way the spurs and you were talking about their plus minus numbers too. It's like these two teams have gone through. They, they have had so many like curb stompings on their, on their journey to this where it's like their plus minus is kind of inflated, where I'm like, it's not totally even representative. I feel like in any given situation. But I want to say the Thunder in seven just to give them their respect. You know what I mean? Like, I, I'd be very surprised if it was. I got to me, that's more the question. Do you think that they can beat them in less than seven? Because I, I feel like the spurs have the options to kind of muck this up. I, I'm with you though, Rob. I mean, I, I lean towards 7 with this. With the Thunder.
- [48:45]
A
Yeah, I would go Thunder and seven, but if J Dub doesn't look right, I might flip that. I might invert that and say it's spurs and seven could be.
- [48:52]
B
I think another piece of this we didn't really talk about is like, Stefan Castle's the kind of guy who you would think OKC would be able to really bog down and they just weren't really able to do that when these teams have met so far. So it's not like the Thunder are gonna have all the answers to literally anything. Like, there's going to be a lot of breakthroughs on both sides. I don't know that there's a way to fully trap and deny a version of the spurs that is this actualized with all of its ball handlers kind of like working in concert in the way they have. They're. They're going to be awesome to watch in a series like this. And if anyone has a chance to crack through the Thunder's defense, I think it's going to be them.
- [49:25]
C
Yeah, I have a stat. Can I do a stat? This is simple. It's not overly. It's not nerdy. It's not. I don't think it's hard to understand SGA in particular, I was going Back and watching ball screens with Wimy on the floor. Thought this was an interesting stat. High pick and rolls, which is where Shay is like probably the most dominant player of the last. I don't. Well, him and Luke. It's an in we talked about in the synergy database. He's off the charts. He's destroying everybody in possession.
- [49:49]
B
You said distinctly this was not nerdy. And then you took us straight into the Synergy database.
- [49:54]
C
I think it's not. Anyway, I'm not gonna say like points per possession. This is a just a percentage.
- [49:59]
B
Okay.
- [49:59]
C
To show you how he affects the way Shay plays in high ball screens, which is where Shea likes to play most of the time. When he comes off of the screen, which is what he does most of the time, he's learned to hit that shot from three. That's been a big development. But on plays where he comes off of the screen and goes to the basket, the whole rest of the regular season, every other team, every other rep, he would go to the rim on 32.8% of those possessions. When Wimby is on the floor, that number drops to 18%. To give you an idea.
- [50:29]
B
Yeah.
- [50:29]
C
Of the way that Wimby affects Shay. And I had noticed that it wasn't always even that, like when be blocked Shay or when he gets a deflection against Shay. There were multiple possessions and I could tweet these out where Shea turns the corner. San Antonio even conceded gaps to him. They were like, hey, here's an elevator
- [50:46]
B
door where the door is not closed.
- [50:47]
C
You want to come through here? Shea would look up, see Wimby, and stop paying attention to what else was going around, going on around him. Like in a couple times, like Vassell got through the screen and blocked Shay. So that's just the impact. That's the chess game to me that I think is going to be really. That wasn't overly nerdy, was it? We're just talking percentages here, baby. It just came down a little bit.
- [51:06]
B
Just about talking percentages. Yeah.
- [51:08]
C
Yeah, man.
- [51:09]
A
So minus 20 is the big. The big number here.
- [51:14]
C
Yes, I think the. But you, you love a short wind up. I know, Justin, but yes, that was. That's the percentage drop. It's a significant thing.
- [51:24]
B
Seems like it's dramatic reads.
- [51:29]
C
All right, what do you want?
- [51:32]
A
All right, why don't we take another break? We'll come back and talk about the East. Now.
- [51:37]
D
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- [52:10]
A
All right, so the Cavs have played two straight seven game series. In between those series, they've had literally one day off. They had that going into the second round. They're going to have that again because they play again on Tuesday. They haven't had more than two days off since the start of May. It is now May 18th as we're recording this. And so they're basically dealing with a completely different set of rest than most of the rest of the playoffs because all three teams have been waiting for a little bit and the Knicks have been waiting for them after sweeping these Sixers. It's the type of thing where it's like, talk about this all the time, Rest first for us, all this other stuff. Yeah, that's like one thing, right? But I also think it matters in this series in particular because the Knicks have played like a juggernaut for the past two weeks. And so it's one thing if you just have a rest advantage. It's another thing if you compound that with the fact that one team perhaps is playing the best basketball, like, since they've come together. Like, I can't think of another stretch, Rob, where the Knicks have, have looked this good and this dialed in.
- [53:06]
B
I mean, maybe the best basketball of anybody in the league. Like, the Knicks have been so dominant on their run, different caliber of competition than, you know, if you want to compare to the Thunder of the spurs or whoever. But they feel like a totally different team. Like they, these two, these two teams have only played once since the James Harden trade. I would argue they played zero times since the Knicks became the Knicks. And so I don't know what there is to take away from the regular season matchup in particular, other than to say this feels especially messy in like a shell game matchup sort of way. There's going to be so many weird cross matches. They're going to have all of these, like, ripple effects as a result, because it's not like a. You're one through five guards there, one through five. You're going to jump up the board a little bit. You know, Josh Hart is going to guard James Harden a good portion of the time, I don't know, like what the Cavs want to do with Evan Mobley and Jared Allen, how much they want to play off Josh Hart or not. Because believe it or not, this is the one playoff run in which Josh Hart's like black magic has not worked to make him a competent three point shooter in the playoffs. And so now you can actually cheat off him a little bit. And what do you want to do with that? Do you want to treat him like a Sar Thompson? Do you want to treat him like maybe slightly more of a threat than that? There's just like a lot of options on the board for both of these teams in a way that is exciting and feels very new based on who we believe them to be. Even a month ago, I think the
- [54:20]
C
Harden acquisition affects this matchup. Granted, we didn't get to see the Celtics, it would have mattered, but I think it affects this matchup more than any other one that they've had in the playoffs. But because we saw them play one game, we saw as they, as they are currently constituted and it was just Harden landed and I mean, it wasn't that fast, but it was pretty fast after they acquired him and they rolled him out there. But the thing that jumped out to me was if they can get the Brunson part of this. When you have James Harden, I think gets really interesting because they haven't played a guy who is as multifaceted in ball screen as. As James Harden is. So if he's going to be going at Brunson a whole lot and he can shoot over Brunson and he can, you know, he's big, he's big physical player. And then the cat part of this, I, I think those two guys on the floor, having two guys who are elite, you know, pick and roll players, I think is going to be. I don't have like a long lined up stat for this one, but I think, I think Brunson, Brunson, as it pertains to Harden being out there, I think is going to be something really interesting in the shell game like you were talking about.
- [55:20]
A
Yeah, I definitely look at the guards in this one in part because of that. Obviously Brunson's going to be picked on, off defensively. But also on the flip side of this, this feels like a backdoor Evan Mobley, you got to show me something sort of series, in part because the Cavs rely so much on those guards to get things done. If Mobley isn't going to have a dramatic effect like offensively in creating and they used a little bit more of him putting it on the deck against the Pistons. It's just like they just become so much easier to guard because they have all of these other options to throw at both of those two guys like Bridges. And if OG is healthy. Yeah, heart, like, that becomes a little bit easier because then you can only force some of your bigs to match. Mobile, in terms of physicality typically isn't going to win that battle. And so, like, where is the element that's going to force the Knicks to do things that they don't want? Just, like, I haven't seen it consistently. Like, it comes in flashes, as we talked about. But, like, if you're just sick and Bridges and OG on the two big creators and that's how you're getting things done. Like, I just don't know where the Cavs advantages start. Start to, like, matriculate. Right. Like, where. Where is it happening?
- [56:27]
B
Well, I do think this is a series where they just can't really get away with the Dean Wade stuff anymore. Like, Max Struth needs to continue to start Rock. You know, I know that's rocket science coming off of Game seven where the team looked great, but for one, you just can't give Jalen Brunson somewhere that's that obvious to hide. Like, the Knicks will put Jalen Brunson on Dean Wade in the corner and just let him chill defensively, and you can't let him get away with that. You have to put him in action, even if it's just Max Drew's running around screens and make Brunson be a chaser, all of those things. But also, you need to open up the space for Mobley and Allen to do what they do offensively and to get some of that flow that you tapped into in Game seven. It's just going to be a totally different thing, though. Like, the Cavs to this point, they've had a great run. Again, I don't turn my nose up at anybody who makes it to the conference finals, especially with the responses that they've had along the way. It's been an awesome Cavs run, but they haven't had to play anything resembling this Knicks offense they have never had. They haven't had to reckon with that sort of firepower at any step so far. And so they're gonna have to figure out, yeah, how they really attack the Knicks and how they, you know, actualize Mobley and Allen as, like, real inconsistent with weapons. But they're also going to have to slow down this, like, Top down, Carl Anthony Towns in the high post, Brunson working off ball, Mikhail Bridges being himself. Again, kind of offense that to this point is just like torn through everyone that New York has played against.
- [57:47]
C
You mentioned Dean Wade. I mean, they had some success with Wade, not necessarily attacking Brunson in a switch, but just he was shooting over him. That was something they were having some luck with. The where you put OG I think is kind of an advantage, as you were alluding to. Like, he's got. He guarded Mobley this year more than he guarded James Harden. And I was kind of like that seems like if you're really going to try to stress Evan Mobley because in the, you know, in their previous series against the, the Nuggets or the Nuggets, the Pistons, he was getting in positions where he was attacking straight lines. Both of their bigs were. And I think that putting OG there, I think could be an advantage. Like you were talking about trying to stress the Cavs. I don't know. Where do you, where, where do you. I, I would probably think about putting him on, on an Evan Mobley because he can guard him. He has some experience there.
- [58:34]
B
I think that would be my assumption of where he starts. Right, Justin?
- [58:37]
A
Yeah, I mean, I guess it depends on how much you decide to go a little bit bigger in this series and how much you would sacrifice offensively from that. Like, is this going to be good shootout? Do you play Mitchell Robinson a lot more than you want to? If it's just cat in. In OG in the front court, like, you just don't have the size in order to match even that with Mobley, like, who would you stick on Mobley at that point? I just like everyone else would just get physically overwhelmed. But if you're a little bit bigger, then you have a little bit more options. But yeah, I think it goes back to what you guys were saying about overall about the bench, where it almost feels like like the, the Knicks have all of a sudden become the deeper, more consistent team, whereas the Cavs have started to resemble like the Tibsian. Like we really play seven or eight guys. And the depth, like for the Cavs, it almost feels like there's a little bit more of an either or situation where it's like, oh, if Schruss isn't there, we'll go to Wade or we'll go to Merrill Moore. Whereas like the depth for the Knicks there seems to be like the supplementary, like just more plug and play role player types that fit around everybody else where it's like the Bench is playing well and it seems like they can get consistent minutes and like a very clear need from all those guys when they need it. And so it's a very weird situation to be with the Knicks where like they're not only playing well and their best guys are playing gangbusters. Cat and Brunson in particular and OG who before the injury was playing the absolute best offense of his career. But it's also like the bench is playing well. Like, I don't know how to wrap my head around this version of the Knicks.
- [60:05]
B
Well, especially when you're thinking about what you get from those bench guys. Like Deuce McBride is going to come into the series and give the Knicks really important defensive minutes against probably Harden and Mitchell at various points, right? Like, the Cavs don't exactly have their version of that. Dennis Schroeder can be pesky, he's been pretty good by and large in these playoffs. But to me, this is also a reason why you keep Dean Wade on the bench. Is it like at least calibrates who you have positionally coming in as a reserve, right? You at least have some front court player who isn't just like an overtaxed three who can come in and like give you some real minutes at the 4. The Knicks, though, like what they've been able to do with their bench over the course of this year and developing it with throughout these playoffs, really remarkable. Like the Landry Shamit minutes continue to be really important there. It almost doesn't really matter how small they play. They'll throw out three guards together at various points without seemingly any cost at all. Like, they just have enough flow and enough energy and enough pace that they work with with those groups that they paper over a lot of different things. And the Mitch Robinson is such a unique force on the offensive glass that he kind of bends you in ways that other reserves don't. I just, I've been so impressed by the Knicks and to the point that I have a hard time like, understanding the larger Cavs case here. Like, for as good as they've been, for as many weapons as they have, for as great as we just saw Donovan Mitchell play, beating the Knicks is just going to be a really, really tall order. I don't know that Cleveland really has it in them.
- [61:27]
C
You're talking about their bench. I mean, I feel like, I feel like I would be remiss, Rob, if I didn't give you an opportunity to gloat about Tyler Kolek. I mean, you know, you got a lot of grief for that, I think we're being fair here. All is fair.
- [61:41]
B
Yeah.
- [61:41]
C
I mean, did you want to. Do you want to go ahead and just cash one in here?
- [61:45]
B
Let's take a middle ground approach here where, you know, Tyler Kolek looked really good earlier in the season. Off the tails of me saying I'm not even sure he's a real NBA player. He's a real NBA player. But the Knicks have ascended to the point where they just don't really have a use for him in games like this and in series like this. Like, he's just not up to this competitive standard, which I think says as much about the guys who do play as it does Tyler Kohlik.
- [62:08]
C
You're so gracious. Really something. Something to aspire to. Thank you.
- [62:13]
A
Anything else in this one? I. I tend to find myself in the same place as Rob, where it just feels like the Knicks have this and the Cavs, especially considering the road they've taken to get here. I just. Harden will give you a game or two. And so I could see this going six. But other than that, like, I almost feel like it's disrespectful to predict five at this point. Four used to be like the. The absolute slap in the face, but five has become that where it's like, oh, you only give him one game. No. So I. I would say Nick's in six in this one, but I. I can't go beyond that.
- [62:46]
B
Yeah, I think my head says Nixon 5, as you're mentioning Justin, but my gut says Nixon 6, basically because the Cavs just continue to find ways to survive. And so you tip your cap to them, but also to their ability to just like, scrounge games out of thin air. I think they will do that in this series at some point. They're obviously going to press the Knicks. It's not as if the Cavs don't have their own firepower. It's not as if they don't present their own problems. It's just on a matchup level. OG Being healthy is probably the wildest card on the board here because if he, like, exacerbates that injury, if he has to leave this series for a couple of games, that changes a lot. That changes how New York matches up. It changes is what they can go to. He's been amazing at just exploiting any mismatch that's in front of him, big or small or wing alike. And so he's crucial for New York. And if he. If that is, if he's not available, it changes A lot. But so long as he's out there in any functional form, I just think the Knicks have a lot of answers. I think they have a lot of counters and if anything, this has been the development of this era and this run in particular is the way they are running their offense gives them so many different ways to respond to all of these threats and tactical adjustments over the course of the series. And that's a credit to Carl Anthony Towns for the way he's been reading the floor and tapping into different elements of their offense in a way where it's not just Jalen Brunson ISO ball, which he's very good at, but maybe reaches a certain limit. It just feels like the ceiling has been blown off what the Knicks can be and I don't think the Cavs have any real way to remedy that.
- [64:15]
C
Yeah, I think the, the perimeter defensive sort of chessboard definitely favors the Knicks because they did they just have on paper options and they've developed several of them. Like you were talking about McBride who's been good and then obviously with OG and with, with, you know, you could throw in Josh Hart novelously with the. And then Bridges, but you're talking about everything kind of. We have, we have gone into detail about how Cats, you know, schematic and also just his personal sort. Well, one feeding the other. In effect, you know, his confidence is high. If you were going to pick any kind of devil's advocate place and just prod at it, I think it's that Jared Allen and Mobley both, you know, if they go double big, that is another thing to consider for, for the Knicks if they play Mitchell Robinson. But the Cavs do have an, a little bit of an advantage there. Maybe a lot of. Bit of an advantage. I'd be curious to go back through their history and to see how he's performed against those two guys. But those are two guys that can get out and contest him. And you know, Mobley's physicality is improved. If they bother Cat or get Cat to draw, that was another thing. The Brunson picking on him part of this. But if they are able to sort of picket him on in his defense, you know, and get him into foul trouble. I think both of those things working in concert could stress Carl Anthony Towns how load bearing is his shift as a player. Let's say that they do compromise him, what's that going to do to the Knicks? To me, that's the spot. If I were, if I were going to say like there's an argument for this, could Go five, six, seven, you know. Well, six or seven, that's what it would be to me. I, but I, I'm kind of with you guys where I think it's probably going to be the Knicks and six. But that Carl part of it, I think is where you could, you could stress them.
- [65:53]
A
Town's legacy series. Is that what we're saying?
- [65:56]
B
I think we've already heard Legacy run. Like he's been unbelievable this year, but
- [66:01]
A
this like gets him like third row in the once a nick, always a nick, sort of like faction. Like he's in the back there with like the role players versus he's on the court all the time like Carmel.
- [66:13]
C
I don't even know what this. I don't even know what the standard is to get in there because it's like you're in one series, you get a seat, you know, like TV series. Let's see if Starbury didn't even play well for the Knicks. Granted, he's a native son. Yeah, it's just. I don't know what they're. They're just. They have an open door, gracious policy and I commend them for that. But I think Carl's gonna. There are no rules.
- [66:33]
A
I think Carl's gonna only policy that they're open about anything. But yes, they're very hospitable to former players and literally no other human.
- [66:41]
C
It's very true. I love that. I'm like, you only have to be in one series and it's the Sopranos. So I guess that's. You should clarify with that.
- [66:49]
A
It's true.
- [66:50]
C
It's a doozy. I'll.
- [66:51]
A
Starberry was like on the road in Atlanta. Was it sitting next to Jim Dolan and that's where the famous quote of Dolan being like, oh, yeah, I don't, I don't know about these guys. They're killing them or whatever.
- [67:05]
B
He was 40 points or whatever, you
- [67:07]
A
know, so maybe he's just like a part time roadie for the sure Shot,
- [67:12]
B
you know, I think, I think you could slap the base. I think Starbury has some chops. He's got some rhythm to him.
- [67:18]
A
All right. Anything else on this one? Yeah, any. Any big picture thoughts?
- [67:23]
B
How about a little picture thought?
- [67:25]
A
Okay.
- [67:25]
B
Is this maybe more of a Keon Ellis series than some of the previous ones?
- [67:29]
A
That's very little.
- [67:30]
B
Well, very little on purpose because of the undersized nature of New York's bench. Like there just was nowhere for Keon Ellis to play against the Pistons. But I think in a series like this, he might actually be able to give them some minutes if he can keep his head on straight and not gamble too much.
- [67:44]
C
I didn't say that.
- [67:46]
A
Do you think Kenny Atkinson knows that he's still on the team?
- [67:49]
B
It's unclear sometimes. But also, can you really blame him?
- [67:52]
A
It would be nice for them to do a little bit more. You're right. They did feel like they kind of metastasize how many players they're gonna play and you get like a couple spare minutes from here, like here and there from everybody else. But you're right, they really kind of like riding it tight. And if the minutes start to compile on some of these guys now in their third series, I could see them doing that. But especially at the start, you know,
- [68:14]
B
it's like you find out over the course of the series who can really hang and play. But game one, game two, it's a lot of like, throw people out there and see what works. And can you give us five good minutes in a way that could actually mean something in this series? I could see Keone Ellis having a game where he. Where he has that kind of impact. I don't know if it's going to last, though.
- [68:31]
C
Jalen Tyson, we. I called for him very erroneously prognosticated that this might be a Jalen Tyson series in the last one. And then he like just stopped getting in entirely. I don't know if that was. They stopped being able to trust him or whatever. Yeah. Four minutes in that closeout game.
- [68:47]
B
Well, he sort of self destructed there.
- [68:49]
C
I. Yeah, yeah, he did. Really didn't turn back from that. Yeah.
- [68:52]
B
Yeah.
- [68:54]
C
Who among us before we close out, though?
- [68:56]
B
I do want to give James Hard one more bit of credit because I feel like part of the reason the Cavs are on this run, part of what he brings to their team, is that when you have him and Mitchell out there together, it just like pulls the other team's defensive resources a little tighter. Right. It takes away some of the pressure on Mitchell, the number of defenders, the types of defenders you throw at. Donovan change when Harden is on the floor. And so, yeah, James Harden has not always covered himself in glory, but just by virtue of being on the team, he changes the way you match up with Cleveland in such a significant way. That said, I think the Knicks are a little more resistant to that than basically any other team in the Eastern Conference, certainly the elite teams of this year's class. And so because they have the ability to move, you know, a healthy OG if he is going to be that and Mikhail Bridges and Josh Hart kind of in whatever combination and alignment they want on those two. It's. That's asking a lot of those three defenders. But I think James Harden deserves some credit for the way he is sort of uniquely stressed out opponents just by like being out there and doing James Harden stuff.
- [69:56]
A
James Harden in New York with a day off in between. What can go wrong?
- [69:59]
B
What could possibly go wrong?
- [70:02]
A
Kyle, do you have any stats you want to throw out here before we go?
- [70:05]
B
Not too nerdy.
- [70:06]
C
The only. The only stat I could think of that I wanted. I had it written down that I wanted to mention to you guys is listening time to Claro. Since we joked about it.
- [70:16]
B
Sure.
- [70:16]
C
A while back. It's going up in our house, man. The Claro. It's just. I always was a fan, but it's. We turn. Do you guys use. Do you guys turn on the. This is so and so the playlist that, you know to. I'm not gonna act like I'm a greatest on Spotify, but I. I.
- [70:33]
A
Great app.
- [70:34]
B
It's an introduction. Yeah.
- [70:35]
C
It's a wonderful app if you're wanting to just dabble in something. The. The. This is Clara. We've been. We just turn it on. It's good vibes. Sunday morning we're making coffee and brunch and it's just. We got bags going. You know, it's good times.
- [70:47]
B
So you're saying you think the spurs can do it if they try.
- [70:51]
C
If.
- [70:51]
B
If. I mean, if only to say that the championship is that. Look, we're straining the lyrical metaphor, but I do think we could all stand a little more Claro in our lives.
- [70:59]
A
Yeah. The LA Twee queen. Just unrivaled.
- [71:04]
B
If you say so. I don't even know that that's accurate.
- [71:07]
A
Is she not twee? She's very. I don't think perhaps.
- [71:10]
B
No. This isn't like Belle and Sebastian, you
- [71:13]
A
know, it's not that far off.
- [71:15]
B
I think it's quite. I think it's quite far off.
- [71:17]
C
Stars of track and field.
- [71:19]
A
I guarantee, if you were to look at Claro's own Spotify, there's a lot of bell and smashing going on there.
- [71:25]
B
That may be true. I think Claro's a little more like Birkenstock than, you know, like. I'm trying to.
- [71:31]
A
Is that a band?
- [71:31]
B
No.
- [71:32]
A
Are you just talking about specifically the clogs?
- [71:34]
B
I'm talking literal clogs. I'm talking literal clogs as opposed to like Peter Pan collar, which I think is maybe more twee. Affiliated.
- [71:42]
C
Getting in there.
- [71:43]
A
All right. We're trying. All right. Tune in next time where we go through the Smith's catalog. German Be down is Rob's favorite song. All right. We'll be back on Wednesday as per usual. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Yeah, we'll talk to you next time. 21 and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18 and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050. For 24. 7 support in Massachusetts, 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York, Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.