Dallas Wins the Cooper Flagg Sweepstakes. Plus, the Knicks Take a Step Closer to the Conference Finals.

Summary

The Ringer NBA Show - Episode Summary
Title: Dallas Wins the Cooper Flagg Sweepstakes. Plus, the Knicks Take a Step Closer to the Conference Finals.
Release Date: May 13, 2025
Host/Author: The Ringer

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1. NBA Lottery: Dallas Mavericks Secure Cooper Flagg

The episode kicks off with an in-depth discussion about the Dallas Mavericks clinching the number one pick in the NBA lottery, selecting Cooper Flagg. Raja Bell introduces the topic, highlighting its significance and the unexpected nature of the pick.

Raja Bell [02:21]:
“We have a great show for you today. We're going to talk about Cooper Flagg, conspiracy theories, Jason Tatum's injury, and mailbag next.”

Howard Beck shares his initial reaction to the pick, emphasizing the gut feeling that Dallas was destined to secure the top spot.

Howard Beck [02:27]:
“At least four people were sitting there with me when I said Dallas is 100% getting the number one pick. It wasn't any... I just had that feeling.”

He further elaborates on why Cooper Flagg is a strategic fit for Dallas, noting that Flagg is a winning player who will need support to elevate the franchise.

Howard Beck [03:09]:
“I think that specifically for him, Dallas being the pick was... an awesome thing for his career.”

2. Conspiracy Theories Surrounding the NBA Lottery

The conversation transitions to the rampant conspiracy theories surrounding the NBA lottery, particularly questioning the legitimacy of Dallas securing the top pick.

Raja Bell [14:08]:
“Can you tell people why they're full of shit for thinking there is a conspiracy? People like Raja, people like Cliff, who think this is a conspiracy.”

Cliff vehemently denies the existence of any rigging, breaking down the logistical impossibilities of manipulating the lottery results.

Cliff [14:25]:
“What are you seeing in this series where, like, if you've got a 64 win team with those four guys and suddenly they're just, like, completely imploding? Like... How does any of this make any sense?”

He argues that the involvement of multiple parties, including NBA security, Ernst and Young representatives, and the 30 team owners, makes any conspiracy theory implausible.

Cliff [15:32]:
“It’s not rigged. Just stop. It’s annoying.”

3. Impact of the Lottery Outcome on Mavericks and NBA Reforms

Howard Beck discusses how the lottery outcome reinforces the NBA's efforts to curtail tanking, emphasizing that the Mavericks' win is a testament to the league's reforms aimed at making the lottery more fair and less predictable.

Howard Beck [20:21]:
“I think that it's positive... It removes the incentive to tank. And this year is another good example that it can backfire on your ass.”

He reflects on previous years' lottery outcomes, noting that the reforms were intended to prevent teams from easily gaming the system, thereby maintaining competitive balance.

4. Jason Tatum’s Injury and the Celtics’ Future

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to discussing Jason Tatum’s unfortunate injury during a recent game, likely an Achilles tear, and its ramifications for both his career and the Boston Celtics.

Cliff [27:40]:
“It was awful. First and foremost for Jason Tatum, for his career and just for him individually, it's heartbreaking.”

Howard Beck reflects on the emotional impact of witnessing Tatum’s injury, comparing it to witnessing similar injuries in other star players and the uncertainty it brings to the Celtics' championship aspirations.

Howard Beck [33:30]:
“Nothing is guaranteed when you're trying to recover from injury.”

The hosts delve into how the Celtics must recalibrate their strategies, considering Tatum’s potential long-term absence and the existing payroll constraints due to NBA’s financial regulations.

5. Knicks' Unexpected Advancement Towards the Conference Finals

Raja Bell and the team shift focus to the New York Knicks, who have made a surprising run towards the Conference Finals, defying earlier expectations.

Cliff [43:13]:
“They looked and are playing like... resilient, like last year's team again. They now have Jaylen Brown, plus all those guys still right.”

Howard Beck praises the Knicks' performance, highlighting Jalen Brunson's outstanding play and the team's overall resilience and gritty playstyle.

Howard Beck [46:56]:
“What I saw from the Knicks was Brunson applied more pressure... They became really stagnant.”

Raja Bell emphasizes the strategic shift in the Knicks' gameplay, noting their ability to control both offense and defense, especially when Tatum was sidelined.

Raja Bell [51:29]:
“That’s the thing. I told you this, Roger, last episode. And that’s my thing with the Celtics, man. They’re just too finesse. ... Those are hard shots to make.”

6. Mailbag: Listener Questions and Analysis

The show transitions to the mailbag segment, where listeners submit questions ranging from Cavs' strategies if they lose to Stanley Playoff Scars.

Kevin Nye’s Question [54:03]:
“As a lifelong Cleveland sports fan, my mind is headed to a dark, albeit quite familiar place. Assuming the Cavs lose tonight, what are the Cavs options for getting better and legitimately competing for a title?”

Howard Beck provides insights into potential moves for the Cavaliers, considering their young talents and salary cap issues.

Howard Beck [55:56]:
“Well, they know that Kobe, Alan, and those guys are really smart. ... You have to peel somebody off and figure out what the right, you know, the right return on that is.”

Another listener question addresses Giannis Antetokounmpo's potential trade.

Ziad Ahmad Parker’s Question [59:22]:
“What position does he play going forward and give me the three best teams for him if he gets traded from the Bucks.”

Raja Bell humorously responds to the positional aspect and suggests Houston, San Antonio, and Oklahoma City as potential destinations, analyzing the trade dynamics and team needs.

Cliff [60:47]:
“San Antonio now has that number two overall pick to play with, too, in any potential trades. ... They could trade the players, but what's Giannis playing with if Claxton and Cam Johnson aren't there anymore?”

7. Closing Remarks and Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with light-hearted banter and final thoughts on the discussed topics, reaffirming the unpredictability and excitement of the NBA playoffs.

Raja Bell [67:40]:
“That has been another edition of Real Ones. [e-mail], ladies and gentlemen. We see you guys.”

The hosts wrap up by reinforcing key discussions and teasing future episodes, maintaining an engaging and informative tone throughout.

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Notable Quotes

• Raja Bell [02:21]:
  “We have a great show for you today. We're going to talk about Cooper Flagg, conspiracy theories, Jason Tatum's injury, and mailbag next.”

• Cliff [15:34]:
  “How does any of this make any sense?”

• Howard Beck [33:30]:
  “Nothing is guaranteed when you're trying to recover from injury.”

• Raja Bell [51:29]:
  “That’s the thing. I told you this, Roger, last episode. And that’s my thing with the Celtics, man. They’re just too finesse.”

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Conclusion

This episode of The Ringer NBA Show provides a comprehensive analysis of the latest NBA developments, from the Mavericks' strategic lottery win to the Celtics grappling with a major injury to their star player. The unexpected rise of the Knicks adds another layer of intrigue, demonstrating the ever-evolving dynamics of the league. Listener engagement through the mailbag segment offers diverse perspectives and further enriches the conversation, making this episode a must-listen for NBA enthusiasts seeking deep insights and lively discussion.

Transcript

[Logan Murdoch]

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[Raja Bell]

We have a great show for you today. We're going to talk about Cooper Flag, conspiracy theories, Jason Tatum's injury and mailbag next.

[Logan Murdoch]

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[Raja Bell]

What's poppin Real ones. Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell there, Howard Beck in the cup, Victoria on the video, Cliff on the boards. Very interesting night of NBA action and news. You know you there. There's on one hand, there's the Tatum news, which we're going to get to in a bit. There is the Dallas News, which was wild. The Knicks are somehow like finals contenders now. Let's start with the let's start with the NBA lottery. The Dallas Mavericks, who apparently Raja had on his bingo card to get the number one pick. I don't know if he's he was lying or if he's telling the truth here. Roger, what were your thoughts on that Cooper flag going to Dallas?

[Howard Beck]

I don't have any real thoughts. I definitely said you. I mean if I my wife's running around here somewhere right now.

[Raja Bell]

Who's going to vouch for you in these lies?

[Howard Beck]

At least Four people were sitting there with me when I said Dallas is 100% getting the number one pick. And it wasn't any. I just had that feeling. It wasn't it. I'm not a conspiracy theorist by nature or anything like that. I just had a gut that that was going to happen. And you know why? Because in Nico, we trust. Because in Nico, this was the plan the whole time, bro. Like, y' all just got to let somebody's plan come to fruition. See, that's what we do. We jumped in, we jumped to these conclusions like we halfway home and trying to figure out whether the ride was a good ride or not. Sometimes you got to take the whole damn ride before you could say whether it was a good ride or not.

[Raja Bell]

Wow, wow, wow. Our third eyes just ain't open, huh, Howard? Right? We're just not really locked in. Our chakras aren't aligned. We are not here.

[Howard Beck]

I know. No. All jokes aside, all jokes aside, I did think they were gonna get it. I don't know. I just had a gut with that. And if you ask me, like my true reaction, I think it's a great fit for, for Cooper Flag. And people are gonna say, oh yeah. I mean, you know, most time number one picks are going to franchises that, that aren't ready to win games and so on and so forth. And I think uniquely he or him as a first pick is going to need the support. He's not your typical give him the ball and he's going to get you 30 and pull this franchise out of like, you know, oblivion type of player. He is, he is a, he is a winning player at the highest level that will need help to do that. And so I think that specifically for him, Dallas being the pick was. Or getting the pick was. Was an awesome thing for his career.

[Raja Bell]

I want to stay with Roger real quick. Top of mind right now. Me and Clifford talking about this pre pod guys that are top picks going to a ready made contender, right? Or at least a. A roster that is trying to contend for winning. We know Nico Harrison for, you know, every decision that he has made is allegedly trying to win. You know, he. And with this type of pick up until now, I mean, I mean, a little ambiguous. That's what he says. But I, I was talking to Cliff about this pre pod about guys that are put into a system so young, right. And that are top flight picks going into these types of situations. I think about Tim Duncan, right. I think about Andrew Wiggins, although he was traded away for the reason I'm about to ask you, but like how do you integrate a young player? And we talk about this all the time, Raja. Guys that have to figure out the league and figure out how to win at this level and figure out just the game switch in general. How does Cooper flag do that into this roster? Who he is going to play alongside? Anthony Davis, but Kyrie Irving is probably not going to come back until some people say estimate January, but I think it could be a little bit later than that. How does he find his game alongside everyone else and keep that team in contention the way Nico Harrison says he wants it to be?

[Howard Beck]

Well, I mean, I don't, I don't know that he keeps them in contention right away the way Nico Harrison wants him to be in contention. Like he's not going to fill the Kyrie void. Kyrie's a huge, you know, a lot of this is going to depend on what they do to, to offset, you know, Kyrie's absence until whenever he's healthy again. Because he's, you know, he's the playmaker, the guy that kind of stirs the drink offensively. And that's not what Cooper is going to be right away. So to answer your question, I think, you know, a lot of times it's not unlike young quarterbacks in the NFL or, or you know, young pitchers probably in mlb. Just young players in general. Pressure, pressure too early can, can have real negative ramifications down the road. Right? And so there is a certain amount of pressure that just comes with being the pick and having the opportunity to play. But, but you don't want to put the weight of a franchise on, on it, on someone's shoulder. That, that is as young as our number one picks are. I mean all of these guys are one year college kids, right? Cooper, Cooper reclassed up to get out. So he's a, he's, he's a real baby. Like you don't, you don't want him to have to go somewhere and say, hey man, you do all the interviews, you take all the shots, you answer all the questions. When we win and when we lose, you protect them from that. Right? So that pressure is not on him. And having ad the roster that they have, Kyrie, when he's healthy will not only protect him from the media and the circus that that can become, but also protect his game in a way that he can really develop into the true, the true, you know, player that he's supposed to be. Not everyone develops into a 30 a night guy. Not every, you know, some people, whether we like it or not, number one picks might not develop. They might develop into, you know, just phenomenal, you know, glue guys that are high, high level, 20, 22 a game, eight boards, four assists. Like he, when you watched him play at Duke, he fills up a stat sheet as well as anyone, you know, in college basketball. So maybe he develops into that type of NBA player at its highest level, but having people around you that can carry the weight allows him to do so. And so I just, you know, I think that's for any, any young player in any real sport, if you have the opportunity to protect them and bring them along, you know, at a, at a pace that, that, that you can monitor and you can then decide when they're ready to take on that weight, I think that's the appropriate, you know, that's the appropriate way to attack that.

[Raja Bell]

Howard. One of the bigger things that came out of this was the video of Nico Harrison's reaction to this pick, right? It seemed like a sigh of relief. Seemed like a guy that is just living a life of roller coasters, you know, over the last few months and we've been living this with him. Where do you think that he stayed? Where do you. What does this pick do for his future and what does he need to do with this second wind that he has gone, that he has had in the last few hours, in the last few days? How, how does, how what, what do you want to see from him? What does he need to do going forward?

[Cliff]

This is, it's so fascinating, right, because there's, you know, there's a case to be made here that anybody who believes in karma, basketball gods, any of this stuff, that stuff, that shit just got shattered because apologies to Raja, anybody who saw what happened over the last few months, the way that Mavs fans had their hearts ripped out, the way that this entire thing was handled, the messaging, the deal itself, the weird negotiation, all of it. The Mavericks as an organization deserved to suffer. Their fans don't. But the organization deserved to suffer. And they just got this massive lifeline thrown to them. And just by the luck of the lottery balls. And yes, folks, it's just luck. It's not anything else. Shut up. So that this, this massive lifeline, Patrick Dumont, off the hook for now. Nico Harrison off the hook for now. Anthony Davis and Kyrie Irving, once he gets healthy, you've now got either a stellar young stud to help bring along and also to help you in the twilights of your respective injury marred careers, or who knows, they could, they could flip him where it go, where it comes down on, on the Nico part of this is, okay, you got this lifeline. What are you going to do with it? Because you inherited a franchise that had a generational superstar and you traded him away for a sack of beans. And now you've got an opportunity to get either a, a a very highly regarded young, young stud in Cooper Flag or you could trade him. You now have to figure out what the best fit is either with him and an aging Kyrie and AD Kyrie who may not play until whatever, January, February, if he plays next season at all. Are you on a two timeline thing? Is this two, is this the warriors all over again with two timelines where you're trying to contend in the present but Cooper Flag is, is the future? Who are you building around? Nico said after he made the trade, well, we've got like a three to five year window and then Jason and I might be fired by then anyway. He said that. I don't know why he said that, but he said that, well, that that was the realistic window was like you've got a few years with Kyrie and AD in their, their early to mid-30s and then it's time for a new era. So what, what is the priority now? Is it to do everything possible to try to contend for championships with those two as your centerpieces or is it about a future revolving around Cooper Flag or are you trying to split the difference? Like that's a really fascinating conversation and I think they have to at least have the conversation too internally of not saying they should trade the pick, not saying they will, but do they at least have the conversation of hey, if we put the number one pick out there, what could we get? Maybe make a better trade this time and get actual value back? You could get Luca back and, and yeah, exactly. What could that pick net, you know, that might be more conducive to the near timeline, which is the Kyrie Irving, Anthony Davis timeline.

[Raja Bell]

Well, there's somebody right now, Howard, that is behind the scenes pump faking that, you know, maybe I might be ready to leave Milwaukee. Maybe I might be ready to trade for Roger. Shaking his head. You would trade Cooper Flag for Giannis Adeta Kumbo?

[Howard Beck]

I mean in a vacuum I would, but I don't think he's good with Anthony Davis. So I wouldn't do that if I was.

[Raja Bell]

I mean, I just feel like it's okay. I just feel like Nico, if his, if his whole deal is just accumulating assets, right? Like he's just accumulating people, defensive minded people Giannis is a defensive minded guy. He's a superstar, former Nike guy. I. It doesn't matter the fit, Raja. It just matters what? Because it just matters what Nico's gonna do. And he's very clearly proven that he will do anything to literally anything in his mind to improve a roster.

[Howard Beck]

I want to argue the basketball gods thing. I think that's interesting. Like, what if the basketball gods did smile on a fan base that felt like they had lost their savior and somebody swooped in and stole him in the middle of the night? What if that was a reward for that? What if the basketball gods. Yeah, what if the basketball. What if the basketball gods swooped in and. And. And rewarded someone for, like, having clarity of vision and what they see a team being and sticking to his guns, regardless of what all these talking heads are talking about. What if that was that? What if they swooped in and said, here you go, Nico.

[Raja Bell]

I don't counterpoint or counterpoint. Light shines on a dog's ass every once in a while, right?

[Cliff]

Raja missed his calling as a White House press secretary. Whoa, that was a phenomenal spin right there. That was some great gaslighting.

[Raja Bell]

Wait, Howard, while we have you right here, could you just. You basically eviscerated Cliff pre pod. Can you just tell people why their conspiracy theories.

[Howard Beck]

I missed that?

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, you missed it. That's what you get for being six minutes late, Howard. How does he.

[Cliff]

Back up on the. On the. On the verbiage there? I did not eviscerate Cliff. I might have lectured Cliff. I might have been emphatically speaking to Cliff about this idea.

[Raja Bell]

Oh, God. But spare me, spare me, spare me. We all love Cliff. We also get all Cliff's head and, like, that's just what happened. Can you. The point is, you're pushing away from the subject I'm trying to get to. How could you. Can you tell people why they're full of shit for thinking there is a conspiracy? People like Raja, people like, like, like Cliff, who think this is a conspiracy.

[Howard Beck]

Am I catching strays? I literally said, I don't think there's a conspiracy.

[Cliff]

I can't believe you're gonna make me do this again.

[Raja Bell]

Go ahead.

[Cliff]

No, listen. It's out there, everywhere. I know. Like, that's people's gut reaction. Especially when a team has, like, a 1.8% chance or whatever leaps up. And especially given the circumstances of the mavericks. Like, I get it. I understand why people's brains go this way. It is kind of a human reaction. But it's like, you Know, it's. It's like your most primitive human reaction. People, like, sit back, take a deep breath, and think about this. For the NBA to rig the lottery. And I've been in the room. We can get to that in a minute. I've been in the room before. I was not there last night.

[Raja Bell]

Subtle flex.

[Cliff]

But for the. Zach Lowe was there last night in the room, and his podcast, which should be out by the time this pod's out, he'll be. Zach does such a phenomenal job of storytelling, like, from the room. So make sure to tune into that. Forget for a moment whether or not you quote, unquote, could rig it logistically. Right. Just think about the concept of this for a minute and why this is fucking ludicrous, batshit crazy stuff for the NBA to rig the lottery. First of all, who's the NBA? Is it Adam Silver and the people at Olympic Tower in Manhattan? Or is it the 30 owners who all spent billions to own these teams? Because you're not just perpetrating a fraud on the public. You're. You're perpetrating a fraud on your actual business partners, on the owners themselves. And now 29 of them are okay with a fraud that benefits one of them, the team that they were all just laughing at five minutes ago for trading away their franchise star. And they're going to reward him. They're all going to agree to this. And if it's not involving all those owners and it's just the league office, then the league office is perpetrating a fraud, by the way, multiple felonies involved here, I'm sure. Perpetrating a fraud on the 30 owners, the people who employ Adam Silver. Like, how does any of this make a lick of fucking sense? And then when it comes to the room itself, which, again, yes, Logan, I've been in the room. So there's a bunch of media members in there. For us to be there as neutral observers to watch this. There's a whole process, you can see, but it's presided over and administered by representatives of Ernst and Young. This, like, you know, worldwide, you know, global consulting and finance firm. Like, they. They do a lot of different things. They're highly respected. So now, is Ernst and Young. Are they complicit in it, or are they the ones who are actually doing the rigging? Like, how does this make any sense? There's NBA security in there. Of course, there's a. Representatives of all 14 lottery teams. So now if. If being in the room meant you could see it, and then you all had to keep it a secret. Great conspiracy. Like throw like three dozen people in a room and ask them all keep the same secret. Now you've got representatives of the team, the teams that are losing the lottery agreeing to cover up the, the, the. The, you know, manufactured results that are benefiting again. The team that they were all making fun of five minutes ago for trading away Luca. None of this makes a lick of sense. It's not the way it happens. I get that. People are puzzled, perplexed, annoyed, weirded out by it. Shit happens. It's a lottery for a reason. There's a bunch of ping pong balls in a hopper, they got to come out and there's like a thousand different number combinations. You can see it all. I think it's on YouTube now. They posted after the fact. It's not rigged. Just stop. It's annoying.

[Howard Beck]

I mean, or.

[Cliff]

Or, or.

[Howard Beck]

It's the basketball gods, man.

[Raja Bell]

Wow.

[Cliff]

Yeah. I want to say, Roger, just to reemphasize the basketball guys shining on Mavericks fans, I'm with. They've suffered enough. They did. They did not deserve to have their hearts ripped out by your buddy Nico Harrison, by your mans. But it's rewarding the fans. The idea that it's rewarding Mavericks management after making a catastrophic trade, I can't quite embrace.

[Raja Bell]

Very eloquent crash out by Howard Beck, ladies and gentlemen. Great job. One of the interesting things, though, about this lottery, right, is the fact that all the teams that went to go tank were not rewarded for it, right? Quite frankly, with the number one pick, you talk about the Sixers. I mean, happy for Cliff, who got his third pick and got to keep his pick. He's very, very excited about that. Right? But I think about a team like the Utah Jazz, who in the final night of the season, saw that the Washington Wizards had won a game and therefore put themselves a half game up or back or something like that in the standings in terms of draft considerations and then bench their starters to lose the game, right. To improve their odds. They were not rewarded for that. Neither were the Hornets, who were just terrible all season long. Howard, do you think in some twisted way, I'm thinking about the basketball gods here. Do you think that these reforms actually, is this a victory for the reforms that we actually have a team that, for whatever you want to say about Nico Harrison, he's trying, right? Or the team is actually trying to make the playoffs get. Get a pick like this. Is it some twisted way this helps help the argument for the reforms that have been put in place years ago?

[Cliff]

Yeah, absolutely. Positively it does. You know, the first year the reforms were in place, I'm trying to remember, I think it was like the Knicks, the Cavaliers and somebody else who were top three. And I think all three got dislodged. And then the Pelicans leapt up from whatever 9th or 10th to get, to get Zion. And immediately it was like, yeah, this is the point of the exercise. This is why you do lottery reform. The point is to try to, if not to dissuade teams from tanking, at least remove the incentive to tank. And if you see year after year after year, teams who had one of the three worst records, who then have a mere 14% chance to win it all. So 86% chance that you're not getting number one, if you see that and you see it play out year after year, where teams that were seemingly positioned to get the top to the top of the draft are falling, maybe it makes you think twice about tanking. Unfortunately, like, that hasn't been the case. Right. Teams are still like, eh, you know what? I got nothing going anyway. We're in a tear down, our team is a disaster. Our fans are already pissed off. I might as well lean into it. 14% chance is still better than 8 or 6 or 2, although apparently 1.8 is enough. So it's, it's, it's theoretically going to give teams pause about tanking because there's not an obvious payoff. And this year is another good example that it can backfire on your ass. I think people should, mo. Should broadly be happy about that. It's, it's funny though, to watch this. If you dial back 10 years, everybody, and by everybody, it was like the public, the media, us, all of us are all the hand wringing about tanking and the process and the Sixers and all this was. Well, you can't, you, the league can't do this. You can't just manipulate your way to a top pick. This is bad for the league. You shouldn't be incentivized to lose. So the league addressed it, they reformed the lottery, they changed the odds. And now that we have these new odds where teams that are terrible are falling to the middle of the pack and Washington ends up sixth and Utah ends up fifth, and now it's like hand wringing over. Oh, well, how are they supposed to get better? Well, this was the point, the whole point was you're not supposed to be able to game the system. And we just saw that vividly again last night. Tough shit. Washington and Utah, you got to find another way.

[Raja Bell]

Are you happy with that? The basketball gods do good on this, Roger, since you're in constant communication with them.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah, I mean, listen, I have offended sometimes, I. But I try to be on the right side of them. But yeah, I agree with Howard on that. Like, you know, that's what it's in place for. You know, I don't know that you'll ever get rid of teams, you know, doing whatever they can to get their 14 point whatever percent chance. But like, I like the fact that it's not an automatic. You get the number one pick. So I'm good with that.

[Raja Bell]

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[Logan Murdoch]

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[Raja Bell]

This episode is brought to you by Indeed. A successful season starts with picking the right players for your team. If I were picking a team, I pick some of the greatest players of all time. Maybe I get Kareem at the 5, maybe I get Tim Duncan at the 4, LeBron at the 3, Jordan at the 2, and Kobe at the 1. Or maybe I will get Steph at the 1. Steph at the 1 will be pretty cool too. If you want to hire the best players for your business and quickly, you need Indeed. Their sponsor jobs help you stand out and reach relevant candidates faster. Plus, with Indeed sponsored jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts, and you pay for the results. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com RingerMBA that's Indeed.com RingerMBA right now and support our show by you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.comringermba Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. All right, let's just, let's talk about something we're not good with. We've been pushing this far into the episode. Just coping. Jason Tatum. Guys, I see Roger's face. His tears are coming down his eyes right now. He's really sad. Howard. Feel like we're in mourning right now. I was watching this at Chase center last night. It was a great game by the way. Knicks, Celtics will probably get to that in a minute, but and Tatum was fantastic and it just seemed you knew something was wrong the way he went down and we haven't gotten the official news, but we all know what it is like. Let's, let's be real. It's sad because you know, tatum is what, 20, 28, 27, something like that has a, theoretically has so much of his career ahead of him. And then on top of that, you think about the Celtics who are going into, or is already going into an uncertain off season, whether they were going to break the bread to be able to pay for this roster. And now this injury puts their whole shit in flux. First of all, Howard and Raja, how did you feel when you saw it? What is, what are, what were the media things that came to your mind? I'll start with Howard and where do the Celtics go from here, man, we.

[Cliff]

All know, because, you know, I mean, Raja, you've been in the game a long time. And Logan, I've been watching the game a long time. Like everybody who's a basketball fan knows the guy goes down on a non contact injury, the way he went down and immediately grabbing at that part of your leg, you're immediately thinking Achilles and your heart sinks like, just awful. And he was having a fucking awesome game. Besides, like, he was like, that was. I know they still had a hole to climb out of once again at that point, but you know, potentially one of those career defining moments where if he had led them back, tied up the series with just a dominant performance, then we'd be talking about that game for a long time. And so instead to go down with the Achilles, or, excuse me, with the injury that would appear to be an Achilles, we'll find out maybe even while we're still recording here. But it's just, it's awful. It's awful. First and foremost for Jason Tatum, for, for his career and, and just for him individually, it's heartbreaking. That was the other thing that really struck me, guys, like whatever the injury turns out to be, he knew, he knew it was bad immediately. You saw it in, in his face, in the emotions. Whether it was literally just pain or just the emotional pain and the realization that, like, this is it, I'm done like this. I'm done for this series, in this postseason, probably. And if it's an Achilles, it's a long road back. You know, it's too soon to start talking about the, you know, what happens next for him physically. But like, Kevin Durant was much older when he tore his Achilles. And Kevin Durant has had the best comeback from an Achilles we've seen in the history of the game at a much later stage of his career. So I think that that bodes well for Tatum if it's an Achilles, and I hate to assume it, but like, it, it just looks and feels like that's what it's going to be. And then the Celtics, like Logan, you, you noted it like, you know, Bobby Marks has said, our friend over to espn, like They're. They're on pace for, I think like a $500 million payroll and payroll plus luxury taxes and then the second apron stuff and all the limitations that puts on a team. You've got an ownership change coming where the Celtics going to be committed to this group long term anyway, given all of the consequences of that, I think if they won the championship, it's almost like you're obligated to run it back no matter what it costs you and no matter what the second neighborhood implications are. But if you're not winning a championship, everything's back on the table. And you also have the short term fact of, well, if Tatum is going to miss at least a season. Brown, you know, if we. If before we were thinking about, well, maybe we have to peel off a Derek White or a Drew Holiday, well, now you need them both. Now you need everybody. But you still have a payroll issue to deal with. And because of the second apron and repeater tax issues, it's harder to add talent. So you can't even, like. It'll be really hard just to pick up a minimum salaried guy just to, like, backfill if you have any more injuries. So they're in a really, really, really tough spot. If this is as bad as we.

[Raja Bell]

All believe, it's probably from a human element, though. Raja, like, as a Hooper to Hooper, what did you feel when you saw. Because like every Friday that I've talked to that have torn their Achilles, it's not a pain necessarily thing, more of a realization when you tear it because your shit goes numb, you're just on the floor. Like, we've seen people who tear their Achilles dame this season. I was in the building when Durant tore his. There was just a realization of just on the floor. It felt like Tatum, in the moment knew what it was, and that elicited the emotional reaction of like, fuck of the mountain he has to climb. But Hooper to Hooper. What did you think of what. When you saw what happened to him?

[Howard Beck]

Yeah, if I'm gonna be honest, I'm gonna be very honest with you. Like, I was sitting there with Ty and my wife, and we were watching. And when the play happens, you see the turnover and then the ball starts going the other way, right? So then you get the dunk, and then they pan back to Jayson Tatum and he's writhing, like, in pain, or would appear to be. And so our first reaction, or my first reaction is what it always is when I see someone doing that is like, what the fuck, man? It can't be that bad because, like, that's like, a rule in our house. Like, you can like it or you don't have to, but, like, you know, I don't. I don't want. You know, it's just. I don't like the kids doing that. Like, get your ass up. Let's go, man. Hobble off to the side. Like, we'll. We'll figure it out. That's just our thing. But then I saw, like, something in his. In his. In his, you know, palms in his face, and I was like, let me rewind this real quick before they even. I took it back. And as soon as I saw the move, when he took the negative step to go forward, my heart just sunk. I was like, oh, shit. He just. He just potentially tore that Achilles. And, you know, then it did dawn on me that that reaction was probably less about, you know, pain and more about just your, you know, basketball mortality flashing before your eyes. And that's what happens when you have an injury like that. Whether. Whether or not Kevin Durant has come back from it, you know, miraculously or not, when you sustain an injury like that, everything flashes before your eyes. Like, the first thought isn't, oh, I'll be back from this in a year and a half. No, that's not what goes through your mind. And so, you know, as a Hooper, I just felt. I felt awful for him, just as not just a Hooper man for anybody, you know, playing sports and stuff like that. Those Achilles. While I tend to agree with Howard, much younger than Kevin Durant, Kevin Durant, very, very similar in terms of, you know, what they. What they kind of want to do. Like, his game isn't predicated on explosion, and. And he's kind of a glider. He's long, he's athletic, but he's. It's not like it's a. It's a ferocious, like, Ja Morant or Derrick Rose type of, like, pop to his game. So those type of guys, I think, would have a much better chance of coming back and being exactly what they were. But nothing is. Nothing is.

[Raja Bell]

Is.

[Howard Beck]

Is guaranteed when you're trying to recover from injury. Like, not nothing's guaranteed. And so for all of those reasons, you just. Your heart broke. You know, for him, for the. For the Celtics, it was just terrible.

[Raja Bell]

And also, like, in rehab, it's not about just the injury recovery. It's the mental stuff, right? Like, yeah, I mean, I think about even with Clay and kd, it's the. They go to. You go to dark places, right? Like, when you're alone and you get the game taken away from you. Like, and I think that not only did Tate and I'm, you know, I don't know him and stuff like that, but I can imagine, like, you see, like you said, you see your basketball mortality, but, like, you see they were. They were on a way to. Maybe they tied a series up. You know, they're on a. They're still on a run.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah, no, yeah, no doubt.

[Raja Bell]

You know, they weren't. They're on or.

[Howard Beck]

They weren't going to tie it up.

[Raja Bell]

They weren't going to tie it up. Okay. Okay. We'll talk about the Knicks in a second. The game itself, I'm just talking about what could go through his mind.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah, I got you.

[Raja Bell]

You know, like, I'm cooking. We could, you know, still going to run. We're still defending this title. There's so many ramifications to this. Right. And it's, you know, it's just going to be tough to get back. I. And also, like Howard said, and we just alluded to the Celtics could look completely different by the time he gets back.

[Howard Beck]

They have to push pause. They have to push. No, no, no. This isn't a year on their chances to win something. They push pause for two years.

[Raja Bell]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Howard Beck]

Not a year. It's not a year. A year is when he comes back. He's two years away from like that.

[Raja Bell]

He's probably out all of next season. Like, there's. That's not even hyperbole. He's. That he could probably just erase all next season for sure.

[Cliff]

Yeah.

[Raja Bell]

I mean, I mean, if, if, if.

[Cliff]

If, if it's the Achilles. Right. If it is still, we still need to at least kind of qualify them for sure.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah. I don't know. Like, I, I always. I'm thinking about all the other players that are here, and I promise we'll get to the Knicks at some point. Orange and blue skies, baby. We see you. Anyways, there's the. Also the Howard, the Jalen Brown of it. All. Right. Where he is this guy, even though that he has said publicly, like, oh, great, being alongside Tatum. And I'm not trying to spark controversy. What I'm trying to say is he is now getting, in essence, a chance at what he has always said behind the scenes, which is now this is his team for, like Roger said, at least a year and a half, two years. How big of a step is this for him and how big of an opportunity is this for him?

[Cliff]

Huge. And. Yeah, I mean, you said it. Logan going back three, four Years, there have always been, like, these rumblings, like, you know, again, the gossipy league. And it's not that people were trying to break up Brown and Tatum and all this stuff. It's like there was legitimately, you know, conversations happening. What's that?

[Raja Bell]

Tension?

[Cliff]

Yeah. Not. I don't even want to say tension. There was a very strong. You would say it's a strong vibe, or that it was actually people heard things directly or indirectly from Jaylen Brown or his people about the fact that Jaylen Brown really saw himself as the kind of guy who could be a number one and not the co star. And was that going to lead to an eventual move by him? Kind of like we saw when Kyrie decided, you know what? I'm tired of being LeBron's sidekick. Kyrie decided he wanted to go stake out his own territory in Boston. Didn't work out so well, but that happens sometimes. Like, there's nothing wrong with it. This is not casting aspersions. The idea that Jaylen Brown might have wanted his own team and to see himself as a true number one is not crazy. When you have that kind of talent, like, that's how you're supposed to see yourself. So there's no crime in that. But that had been a rumbling across the league for a while. It had kind of quieted down the last couple of years. Making the finals helps. Winning the championship helps. Not for nothing, he also was the Finals MVP and the Eastern Conference finals mvp, which was then held against Tatum in a very strange way by some people, which I thought was stupid, but I think what it demonstrated was not only are both of these guys wired to be able to be very gracious co stars with each other, this is not Shaq and Kobe. These guys like Tatum and Brown could and probably should be together for the rest of their careers, the rest of their primes. I think we're past whatever tension points there may or may not have been and the speculation around that, and now Brown has shown himself to be able to be effectively like the lead guy at the highest leverage points of the season, conference, finals, and finals. Now, that said, he had Tatum on the court with him to carry a lot of the load, too. So it's a big difference when you don't have another star next to you. And tomorrow night's going to be the first day of how does the Celtics team look as a Jalen Brown centric operation? Right, because that's what it. Again, assuming this injury is what we think it is for the foreseeable future, their. Their Fate is tied to Jaylen Brown, and that does mean a higher usage rate. It does mean more responsibility. It does mean taking on more, and not just shooting and scoring. It also means playmaking and being a great leader. And that is. That is absolutely clearly his role now in Tatum's absence. Look, we shouldn't write them off entirely. This is a defending champion that won in part because of their incredible talent and depth. Going all the way down to, like, seventh, eighth, man. Right. They now have Jaylen Brown, plus all those guys still. Right. Like, the Knicks absolutely should and probably will win this series. But there's an opportunity here for Jaylen Brown, Derrick White, Drew Holiday, Al Horford, the rest of this group to, you know, to write history in a different way. Let's see if it happens.

[Raja Bell]

What intrigues you about that? That. That. That the. The space that Jalen is in right now, Raja?

[Howard Beck]

Well, I. I mean, you know, I. Look, everyone, not everyone, but when you are that good of a player, and I would put Jaylen Brown in that category, you will always harbor somewhere deep down in you the feeling if you're not provided the opportunity, what if I had my own team? Like, those thoughts. You can't help but have those thoughts. Even if you are a gracious teammate. And you guys can share that spotlight, you and Jayson Tatum, there's always a piece of you. And probably with Jayson Tatum, too. Like, you know, this is. This is our fate, and we love each other, and we're going to work together. But, man, what if. What. Like, what would it look like if it was my own? And we're about to find out for a little while. I would. I think Jason, Jaylen Brown's awesome. I think he's fully capable. It is a very, very different animal when. When you are out there and the game plans are solely for you. Now, I know he's had. He's had stretches in his career, make no mistakes, where he was the focus of a game plan, but in most of those instances, you still had another game plan that had to deal with Jayson Tatum in that way because both of them are so good, you know, off the bounce.

[Raja Bell]

And never in a playoff context, either. We both know there's a difference in that, right?

[Howard Beck]

Yeah, they can really drill down on you in that way, especially in the playoffs. So, look, he's a fantastic player. I don't know that he will or won't, but I'm fascinated to see it, because make no mistakes. Even if he is a great, you know, teammate. Like, there's a part of him that. That. That has always wondered and probably would always wonder, like, what it would look like if it was his.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah. Now, Raja, last time we were on this program, you got up in here and said that the Knicks were cooked.

[Howard Beck]

I did not say that.

[Raja Bell]

And the Celtics can take control of the series. And you believe in the Celtics.

[Howard Beck]

Well, I did not. I definitely did not say that. What I did say was I was worried for the Knicks, and rightfully so, until Jayson Tatum got hot and then he shot them right out of the game. Like everybody. I see everybody today talking about how great of a game he fucking had. And I feel terrible saying this, because on the heels of the injury and everything like that, but I was saying it while it was happening. I almost put my little fingers out to tweet it, like, he's going to shoot them out of the fucking game. This has just become him coming down the court looking for Carl Anthony Towns in a pick and roll and shooting the fucking three. It shot him right out of the game. New York was in trouble. Now, I'm not taking anything away from the brilliant performance that was Jalen Brunson and his supporting cast, because they were awesome. They did everything they were supposed to do. They took it, but they were. For everything I said on the last pot, it was looking just like that. And then he got hot, and it was the worst thing that could have happened.

[Raja Bell]

Howard. Howard. I mean, Roger said this in a chat. Roger's very. He's participating a lot more in the group chats. It's definitely playoff time. I will say that. But. But next to the Finals, that's what. That's what. That's what Roger's saying right now. What do you think? What's up with the. What. How are the Knicks feeling? What is the vibes in New York? What's going on there? How do they feel about this team? And do you think that they really do have a very unlikely run in them? Because just like a month ago, we were like, there's no way that the Knicks are going to get this far. They're going to lose to the Celtics at some point, and that's going to be that.

[Cliff]

I mean, a month ago, Knicks fans themselves were probably saying that. Like they. It was.

[Raja Bell]

By the way and Cliff two.

[Cliff]

By the way and Cliff. No, it's been a really weird, kind of just like the emotional journey for Knicks fans, for New York over the last 12 months, because the team that went through the playoffs last spring was beloved, right? Gutty, resilient, gritty. A guy Goes down, somebody else pops up and gets 20 points and 10, whatever.

[Raja Bell]

Like.

[Cliff]

Like, they just kept coming at you until they finally ran out of bodies and ran out of gas and lost game seven at home to the Pacers. And it was. Man, if they had just had one more healthy body, they might have been in the conference finals against Boston. And then you lose a lot of that grit when Hartenstein leaves for Oklahoma, and you lose some of it when DiVincenzo gets thrown into the Randall trade for Tat. For Cat. Cat's not exactly known as being Mr. Grit. Trade for Mikhail Bridges, also not exactly Mr. Grit. And I think a lot of the season, Knicks fans were sitting there going like, yeah, this team is really good, but I. I don't see how we're getting past Boston. Like, that was. Everybody I knew was a Knicks fan was like, I hope we can beat Boston. I don't. I'm not sure we can beat Boston. And I'm not sure I love this team quite as much as I love the one that went down in the playoffs last year, because those guys were a lot of fun. And suddenly, like, this team is embodying all that again. Like. Like, you know, we're never going to confuse Kat with, I don't know, Dennis Rodman or something. Like, he's. He's. He's always going to be this highly skilled, scoring first, versatile big man who is not going to protect the rim. He's not going to block shots. He's not going to, like, throw his body in the way. But, like, he's come up with some really big defensive moments in this. This playoff run. They look and are playing like. And are resilient, like last year's team again. And ton of credit to Brunson and Hart, who still set the tone for all that. To Tibs, of course, because that's what he. How he's built and the tone he sets. You still can't do it without some things going your way. But that's every team. Like, there's always going to be some luck. And if anybody's going to chalk this one up to just like, oh, well, Celtics lost Tatum. Like, they were probably going to win that game and go up 3:1 anyway. And like, yeah, could the boss. Could the Celtics at full strength have rattled off the next three wins and still won the series? Maybe, but whatever. Like, the injuries happen every postseason. The Knicks have earned this. That they're going to the conference finals almost certainly is, I think, beyond the dreams of most Knicks fans. Certainly, as of a few Weeks ago, a month ago, couple months ago, they didn't think that this was going to happen. And then it's against the Pacers team likely again. We don't want to write off the Cavs before it's time, but it's certainly looking like a Pacers Knicks rematch, but this time in the conference finals. Like, and two teams that, that are just like that, like that, they're all grit. Like I know the paces of this high powered offense, everything. But like the, the Pacers are like, look at the way that team has been just like busting up the Cavs and look at the swagger they play with and look at like freaking Neesmith getting into guys and Mather and like stirring it up. Like this could be an incredible series. We're way ahead of ourselves now. But Nick Spacers in the conference finals, we're going to get all the 90s throwbacks. We're gonna get all the Spike Lee, Reggie Miller stuff, dude.

[Raja Bell]

Can't wait. Can't wait.

[Howard Beck]

Grew up on Knicks Pacers in the playoffs, man.

[Raja Bell]

Yes, baby. Yeah. Yo, man, also not for nothing, man, the Garden has been electric. You got Timothy Chalamet, you got our friend Ben, you got Tracy Morgan, we got Jordan woods and Kylie Jenner being friends again. Let's go, man. Let's go. Y' all don't get that. Y' all not in these, these, these streets. Yeah, we got Cardi B and Stefan Diggs, bro. We got. It's just lit out of this motherfucker, bro. But let's go back to the encore stuff because the off court stuff is great. But let's go back to the encore stuff. Roger, what have you seen from the Knicks down the stretch? Because it really felt like in game four, they really controlled the game from the stamp. From the standpoint, you referenced Tatum before, I know that he shot them out of the game, but it also felt like the Knicks were in control of this game offensive and defensively throughout the night. What have you seen from them and how have they evolved throughout this series?

[Howard Beck]

Well, they took a good punch. Derek White came out really hot and, and honestly in that first quarter, they could have got their doors blown off, but they hung in there and they kept hooping and, and when they did that, you knew, I knew they. This was going to be a game. This was going to be one of those ones that goes down to four or five minutes left in the game. And now we're talking about who, who can execute better, you know, down the stretch. I would, I just want to clarify when I say Jason Tatum shot him out of the game. I mean, he made some of those shots, and he had 42. He made some huge shots. But you have to. When you've stopped the ball moving in the way that he did, so, like, you got to make. You got to score 50 then, because the ball stopped moving, right? It was just him handling it, just searching for that pick and roll, and then you're going to shoot that deep jumper. What I saw from the Knicks was Brunson applied more pressure. Brunson did the same thing. They shot about the same amount of shots. I mean, he had 39. You know, the ball was in his hands a lot. But, you know, Ty again was sitting next to me. And there was a play late in the game, and we had watched Tatum a few times.

[Raja Bell]

This is.

[Howard Beck]

And Brunson had it on the right wing, maybe, if you will. And he was like, tween, tween, tween, tween. And, you know, you could tell he was setting his man up. And then he quickly, like, laced it to the corner real quick and somebody hit a three. And Ty said to me, he's like, yeah, I like that. Because he was looking to cook. He was like. But he realized he had take too many. He had taken too many dribbles, and so he just sprayed it. And he was doing that better than Tatum was doing it. He was getting to his bag, getting his shots, because he's the guy that makes that go. But also figuring out ways if it was. If it was too ball monopolizing to just get off of it and give someone else a quick opportunity. Those guys, when they had those opportunities, made the most of them tough shots. You know, dudes were making tough knockdown shots. Anunoby, damn, why I get all these names mixed up, man? But his Villanova teammate, oh, Miles Bridges. Yeah, Bridges on those. On those. Tough. McHale, those fucking fade away. And like, those guys made the most of those opportunities. And then, you know, you have Josh Hart and. And those guys just digging out extra possessions, digging out loose balls, like doing what they do to supplement it. And so look that it wasn't all on Tatum, but. But the Celtics and Tatum. When Tatum just started saying, when Tatum got hot, all ball movement stopped. It became that. And the rest of those guys didn't. They didn't play off of that. Well, maybe that's a Tatum issue, maybe that's a them issue. But the combination of the two was. They became really stagnant. And one shot at the rim and were out where the Knicks became an attack mode. And here's the other part. Brunson for it's. It's really crazy for the stature, the size and the athleticism. You'd give all of those to Jason Tatum, right?

[Raja Bell]

Absolutely.

[Howard Beck]

You give all of those. He checks every one of those boxes in a way that Jason Tatum doesn't check. But Jalen Brunson was making his money in the paint as much as he was making it at the three point line. And that collapses the defense, that forces rotations, that, that allows a body defensively to have to react to that, which gives his man on offense an opportunity to swoop in an offensive rebound. And Jason Tatum wasn't putting any pressure on their defense like that. He was just making phenomenal 25 to 30 foot shots.

[Raja Bell]

Probably. We'll give you that shit. It's cool. Especially a Knicks type of defense who predicates itself on physicality, on, you're not going to get any easy buckets and you're going to have to earn this shit. If you're doing step backs, who gives a shit? Those are hard shots to make.

[Howard Beck]

Logan, I swear, as soon as he got hot, as soon as he got hot, I looked and I said, this is going to be a problem because this is what they're going to do. Now he's hot and this is the shot he's going to live with for the rest of the night. Where the Knicks just kept hooping at your rim, on top of the rim. Midi make you work defensive. Like they just had a variety of offense that allowed everybody to get involved. And they execute it better down the stretch. They do that, though. Like this is what we said. If you get into a street fight with them and you take it down into the fourth quarter late and it's about who's going to close better and who's going to operate in the clutch better. They're going to beat you.

[Raja Bell]

That's the thing. I told you this, Roger, last episode. And that's my thing with the Celtics, man. They're just too finesse. And they are always susceptible to getting punched in the face and not necessarily responding. And one thing we know about the Knicks, they going to punch you in the face multiple times. No, they are ready for the fade.

[Howard Beck]

The Knicks did everything they were supposed to do and all of those guys, I mean, Brunson had 39. I'm not looking at the stats, but I think everybody else in a starting LineUp had over 20. Except for Josh Hart, they were just, they were hooping, I'm giving.

[Raja Bell]

And Josh Hart Used them fouls, too, didn't he? He used the fucking fouls. That was his stats for the night.

[Howard Beck]

I'm still telling you. There was an avenue before, Before. Before Tatum got hot and they stopped moving the ball, there was an avenue for this to be 2. 2. Going back to Boston, it was as clear as day. It was sitting right in front of anybody who knows hoops. It was right there. Knicks fans couldn't see it, but anybody who knows hoops saw it. It was right there, and they just wouldn't take it.

[Raja Bell]

How much? How. What percentage of Roger right now is a Knicks fan? Cause I know you got a lot of Knicks fans in your family. Like, are you like, 2, 5% right now?

[Howard Beck]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of anybody. It's hard for me to be a basketball fan, so I. I can't. I. I like the Knick story. I will ride with the Knicks. Yeah, I like them, but I'm not a fan of anybody.

[Raja Bell]

Also, shout out to Neftai for making his papa proud over here, saying, you know, they should have just did this, dad. They should have. What the hell are they doing?

[Howard Beck]

Those are. Those are good moments, man. I enjoy those.

[Raja Bell]

All right, it's. It's time for a mailbag. Cliff, how you doing, buddy? Congrats on the number three pick. Could have been much, much, much, much worse, man.

[Victoria]

I'm just happy I had to challenge Howard's theory on, you know, to debunk whether the ping pong balls went the right way, although Howard was in the room. So, you know, I got to respect that og. I got to respect it. But let's get to this first question here. This is from Kevin Nye, depressed Cavs fan, Logan, Roger Howard, Cliff, Victoria and all. First time, long time. As a lifelong Cleveland sports fan, my mind is headed to a dark, albeit quite familiar place. Assuming the CAVS lose tonight, May 13, what the hell are the Cavs options for getting better and legitimately competing for a title? I know that Mobley and Garland are super young and most likely continue to get better, but it seems kind of silly to run it back with a team that potentially hasn't made it past the second round in three years. Especially when you consider how expensive this team is about to become and how they might lose key role players like Ty Jerome, Dean Wade and Sam Merrill because of salary cap this summer. Is it insane to start thinking about the Cavs could get for Arlen or Allen? I'm sorry, Allen and Garland, and hoping they retool around Mitchell and Mobley. Did I play around to see if trading Garland and Strus for Giannis and the NBA trademark this morning possibly. Am I overreacting? Do I need to be more patient? Enjoy the ride. Thank you guys for providing the most immaculate banter all season long. Thanks, Kev from Hudson Valley.

[Howard Beck]

LeBron James.

[Raja Bell]

What age? LeBron of. LeBron James.

[Howard Beck]

LeBron James.

[Raja Bell]

This. This older. This. This version.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah, man, I heard it somewhere. Somebody said it. I was listening to the radio yesterday. They were like, he comes back and takes the minimum and does it include everybody?

[Raja Bell]

Everybody, though.

[Victoria]

Does he bring Bronnie?

[Howard Beck]

Yeah, I mean, Bronnie. Bronnie got to play like, bronze.

[Raja Bell]

Let Brownie.

[Howard Beck]

Like, Bronnie's got.

[Victoria]

Roger, are you saying the league fixed something? What's going.

[Raja Bell]

Huh? Well, this sounds. You know what? Honestly, this sounds like a Howard question to answer. I just say, you know, I don't know. Roger, go ahead.

[Cliff]

Yeah, just because what are you seeing in this series where, like, if you've got a 64 win team with those four guys and suddenly they're just, like, completely imploding? Like. And I know there's some injuries involved here, too, but still, like, what are you seeing?

[Howard Beck]

This is a tough one. This is a really tough one because of the injuries and the. The. The wiggle room that. That gives you in that mental space of like, maybe we were like, it's. It's tough. And you were so good and you were prolific through a regular season. It's really tough. I would bet that they don't make a move to do anything. I think that they would run it back. I would not mind exploring Garland and. And someone. I don't. I like Mobley, but no, I don't like. I like Mobley. Like, I would explore some things I would try my best to hold on to, like, the three of them being Mobley Allen and. And Donovan Mitchell. Whether that's possible or not, I don't know. What do I get back if I give up Mobley or. Yeah, I don't know, man. My names are terrible, but I think I would probably explore making a deal. I think they stay put, though, Howard.

[Cliff]

So the thing is, from the moment that they got that they traded for Donovan Mitchell, and from the moment it was clear that, like, the young guys, you know, me, Mobley and Garland, were definitely on the trajectory that you hope they'd be on, which is to become stars. Like, you can't have three max players. Plus Jared Allen is. I think he's sub max, but he's still making a lot, like, the clock is ticking on them, just as it was ticking on the Timberwolves and why they had to trade Cat just as it's ticking on the Celtics. As we have already discussed, this CBA makes it incredibly difficult to keep a bunch of high level talent together. It's the whole point of it. It's what the league wants. They want talent distributed across the league. That's how we get this incredible era of parody. And so the clock is ticking on the Cavaliers. Even if they were up in this series, even if they went to the Finals, the clock is ticking from a financial standpoint. And they know that Kobe, Altman and those guys are really smart. They know that. They know that their best case scenario is to win while you can still do it without luxury tax, repeater tax, second apron, all that kicking in. Can you now, if you lose, ownership's always going to be much less willing to pay luxury taxes anyway. And also you have to then reconsider. Well, if we don't have the right combination and we're going to start getting hamstrung by second apron limitations, maybe we should proactively get out of that before we have to put ourselves in that position. So losing maybe clarifies it or speeds things up. I hate to say that. And then it's difficult too, right? Like, all right, Donovan Mitchell is the bigger of the two stars in the backcourt, but he's also the older of the two. Garland is awesome and I'd be really reluctant to give up on him. Evan Mobley is showing signs of being incredibly awesome and a two way player and is a really rare kind of commodity. The size and the length and the athleticism and everything, all that he can do. But you know, something's got to give you. You're. I don't think you can keep all four for the next three, four, five years. So at some point you got to peel somebody off and figure out what the right, you know, the right return on that is, the better return. And yeah, now that you're down in a series 31 after winning a 64, after winning 64 games and everything else, like, you do have to consider whether the best upside is for the post postseason is, is a different combination. I don't know. It's tough. I, I wish I could tell our listener something more uplifting and positive than that. But the good news is this. You had a team that was good enough to win 64 games with four really, really good players. And even if you have to retool, it's probably only one of them. Going out the door and you're still going to have the other three and you're going to get some good stuff back. Like you're in great shape regardless. That, that's, that's the upside here, no doubt.

[Howard Beck]

I'll just say this again. The one thing I do know is that those injuries, they make it really difficult because they cloud. They just. It makes it hard to see exactly what's going on. If you needed an out, if you wanted an out, anyone in the room, you could be like, yeah, but much more clearer view of that if you were playing healthy.

[Victoria]

All right, next question. This is from Ziad Ahmad Parker. Hi guys. You are all awesome. The intro is an all time favorite of mine. Anyways, my question is about Giannis. What position does he play going forward and give me the three best teams for him if he gets traded from the Bucs. Con regards.

[Raja Bell]

What position does he play? Like what does he play on the floor?

[Victoria]

Yeah, I guess. Yeah, that's what he said.

[Raja Bell]

What position plays? Whatever the hell position he wants to play. He's Giannis. I did a kumbo. He plays, he plays Giannis ball. It doesn't matter what he's going to do. He's going to have the ball in his head. He's going to play points sometimes he's going to play into post like he's going to do whatever the hell he wants to do.

[Victoria]

The real question is the three best teams though. I think he just added that in there for sure.

[Raja Bell]

Houston obviously is in there. If they can with their young core, they're not going to trade. Amen, obviously. But Houston seems like a really intriguing place. Especially they can get Jalen Green out of there. San Antonio, maybe they have assets, but I don't think they. I don't know if they can make a deal. Consider because they just have a lot of players on rookie deals. So I don't even know how they can even get that return.

[Victoria]

They got some guys making like close to 20 mil.

[Raja Bell]

Okay.

[Victoria]

But they can make a shake.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah. Okay. So I would say Houston, San Antonio, Oklahoma City. Who is. Who might not get out of this series as a front court guy and Chet Holmgren that his cat Knoff in the, in the clutch. They could be a player too. They have a whole bunch of picks, they have a whole bunch of assets that they can give Milwaukee. So those three, I would say San Antonio, Houston in Oklahoma City.

[Howard Beck]

Go ahead, Howard.

[Cliff]

I think that that's. I think that's the right list. I think what's. What's really gotten Interesting here is that a team like San Antonio now has that number two overall pick to play with, too, in any potential trades. And when I, you know, I was thinking about this earlier today, like, if you're the Rockets and you go into a Giannis trade discussion, amends off the table. You know, you can have Jalen Green, you can have Shangoon even, you can have Tar east and whatever, but amends off the table. Now the spurs have this new trade ship.

[Raja Bell]

The.

[Cliff]

The Bucks are in a great position to be able to, like, play teams off each other, too, because they're like, oh, well, San Antonio is going to give us the number two pick in the draft and Stefan Castle, but you know what I mean? Like, it's. It changes the marketplace a little bit. And this is a theoretical marketplace, right? We are assuming who's going to be in pursuit. We're assuming that Giannis has asked out. We're assuming that the Bucks are willing to do it. We're assuming that Giannis has not already.

[Raja Bell]

He's slow pushing it, though. He's slow pushing it.

[Cliff]

He is, he is. But, like, a lot of stuff still has to happen. And some of the things that we don't know for sure are, is Giannis going to say, but only these three teams or, you know, and. And what does Milwaukee want out of a deal, too? Because even once Giannis provides a list, if he provides a list, then Milwaukee, it's like, does Milwaukee want players who can keep them afloat right now so they don't bottom out because they have no incentive to tank? They don't have their picks. So if they want players, that's. That's different because there are teams that only have players to deal and don't have picks to deal with. There are other teams that could just give you a shit ton of picks. Like the. The Nets have a lot of picks. They could. They could trade the Bucks, but if the Bucks fall off a cliff and they're sending lottery picks to everywhere across the league because they don't have control over their picks for the next three, four years, that's kind of painful. So, like, it's. We don't know what Milwaukee wants. We don't know where Giannis wants to go. And if that is going to limit how, you know, the, the negotiation process, this. So. But yeah, Houston for sure. San Antonio for sure. You know, I proposed Atlanta when we did this exercise a week or two [e-mail] the Hawks have interesting pieces they can move, but I don't. I don't know, there's too many others. Right. Like, people are going to throw out the Lakers. I don't. The Lakers can't make that deal. I don't think the Clippers can make that deal. I don't think the warriors can make that deal. The Knicks theoretically could, but they don't have picks to add to the players. The Nets could, but they have more picks than players. And if you traded the players, then what's Giannis playing with if Claxton and Cam Johnson aren't there anymore? So I don't think the Nets have.

[Raja Bell]

The talent requisite to, like, give Giannis what he wants anyway. So.

[Cliff]

No, if the whole thing. If Giannis has gotten to the point where it's like, I got to get out of here because we don't have a championship window anymore. You can't go to a team that also does not have a championship window and doesn't have the requisite supporting players unless they have another path to get there quick. Yeah, there's no time.

[Raja Bell]

What about. What about wild card? I'm just throwing this out there. I don't even know. Toronto maybe? I don't even know. Do they have the. They only have Scotty Barnes. They have the same thing. They have the talent gap as well.

[Cliff]

Yeah. What do you get? You're getting like, RJ Barrett, Emmanuel Quickley, and I don't know, like, because. Because you're not going to run in. Yeah. Ingram. Like, you don't want to send out Scotty Barnes in that deal, Right?

[Raja Bell]

Yeah. Although I'm not as high on Scotty Barnes as a lot of people.

[Cliff]

And if. And if they were off of him, like, does. Does Giannis, plus all the guys who are left over. That good enough?

[Victoria]

I don't know.

[Raja Bell]

No, probably not. Okay, last question.

[Victoria]

Last question. But. And be free, honest. Who says no? Real quick.

[Raja Bell]

The Bucks by.

[Victoria]

And beating that number three pick for Giannis. Who says no? This. This is titled playoff scars. This is from Howard Beck's Burner count. Doug Beck. Still no relation to Howard, but a big fan. Your colleague Chris Vernon loves to talk about young teams needing playoff scars. I believe the Thunder got some scars last year and then got one early this season by getting blown out by the Bucks in the Emirates Cup. We saw a pretty crazy leap in the playoffs for the Pacers last year after they made the in season tournament final. They look to be making a return trip this year. Do we think the Emirates cup scars are actually helping younger teams in the playoffs, helping them accelerate their learning curve? Thanks, Doug. AKA Howard.

[Raja Bell]

I Think, yo, I think it helped the. Based on where the paces were at that time, I definitely think the cup helped them. I think that the. The OKC just. They just got Vegas. They didn't. I don't. I don't think you put any more stock into that. That. That cup than that. I. But I do think that the cup can be good if for a young team up and coming like no one was last year. No one was expecting Indiana to go to the postseason before that Cup. And I think it gave them, like, really good experience in terms of, like, games that matter to a certain extent and playing in front of a large audience, because I don't even think they had national television games going up before that. And it kind of just brought them to a national stage and taught them how to win on the national stage very early and showed the world that Y were a factor here. But okc, I don't think it really had any effect on them whatsoever. I think that they got Vegas as happens.

[Cliff]

As president of the NBA cup doesn't matter club. I'm not going to put a ton of stock in battle scars from a game in mid December that meant nothing. But I do think that the attention paid to those games, the way that they're marketed, the way that it's built up, the hype machine, creates an atmosphere that makes it feel bigger. So therefore, emotionally, it is bigger. So it's not. It's not nothing, you know, Are they.

[Raja Bell]

Gonna even have it next year? Like, have they even made a decision on that or where it's gonna be? Like, they've just felt like they've given up on it after two years.

[Cliff]

I don't think they've given up on it. They've given up on All Star Weekend. They're gonna, like, trash the whole thing and start from scratch again, I think. But, like, I. I don't. I don't know. Yeah, no, I think the NBA cup is here for a while at least, and probably to stay. But, no, I mean, I think the more important battle scars are the ones you get at times like now. Like, if the Thunder lose this series, they'll walk away feeling something, hopefully learning something if they win this series, like. Like these are the ones that matter. Like, having to beat a team four out of seven times in the spring is just different. Whatever stock we want to place in the cup, it's just different in the spring.

[Raja Bell]

Thoughts, Raja?

[Howard Beck]

Nope.

[Raja Bell]

Okay. Okay. Retweet. Do we have another question, or is that it?

[Victoria]

No, that was it. Yeah, that was the last one. From How's Burner account?

[Raja Bell]

Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Cliff]

Yeah. I said good job, Doug. Cup question just so I could crap.

[Howard Beck]

Just so you could go on up on the cup. I love it.

[Raja Bell]

Through the alley oop to himself. All right.

[Cliff]

I learned that from Jamal Crawford.

[Raja Bell]

Hey, hey. It's not enough. All right. Anyway, that has been another edition of Real Ones. Rogers checked out. Howard is kind of still here. I'm very tired. That was real. Was mailbag Gmail.com. realm's mailbag Gmail.com. real ones, mailbag Gmail.com. we do this every single time that me, Howard, and Raja are on the program together. So you never know when that's gonna happen.

[Howard Beck]

But just Howard Schnellenberger. Did you just program it?

[Raja Bell]

I did. Program.

[Howard Beck]

Did. All right.

[Raja Bell]

Okay, baby. All day, baby.

[Victoria]

Hey, Roz, we got a scholarship for Ty, too, by the way.

[Raja Bell]

Hey, no, by the way, hold on real quick before we go. Sorry, real quick. Sorry, real quick. This Cliff sits in the group chat about. And this was his recruiting pitch, by the way, from Temple.

[Victoria]

It was not.

[Raja Bell]

So anyway, there was an Instagram post right from Temple at this a famous. Apparently There's a famous McDonald's on campus where motherfuckers be having talent shows and a whole bunch of stuff. And he's like, this is what Ty's gonna. The. The. The tradition that Ty is going to be a part of. This is what we got to get him up in there.

[Victoria]

We needed to get Victoria on here to validate. I said, absolutely none of that. Logan is lying.

[Raja Bell]

Victoria saw it, too. It said Barry Ghetto 1 out of 10 McDonald's. This is the environment that Cliff wants Ty to go into, by the way. Raja. Just saying. I'm just saying.

[Howard Beck]

I was a big fan of Temple coming out. I'm on record. John Chaney, Dawn Staley, Legends. Yeah, yeah.

[Victoria]

Eddie Jones, Aaron McKee. You know what I'm saying?

[Howard Beck]

Eddie is just from around the way. I play golf with Eddie, man. Mark Bacon, everybody.

[Raja Bell]

Oh, my God.

[Howard Beck]

Making was so cold. Yeah, I was a big fan. The 6ams, though. The 6am's got me. The 6ams got me.

[Raja Bell]

All right. R.mailbag gmail.com, ladies and gentlemen. We'll see you guys. Me, Howard, and potentially a special guest on Friday. Tap in all the shits. Bye. Foreign, 21 years and older and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino. And 18 and older and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or visit rghelp.com call 1 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinconnectican or visit mdgamblinghelp.org In Maryland, Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-87-7-8, Hope NY or Tex Hope NY in New York.