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De’Aaron Fox Becomes Wemby’s Numéro Deux. Plus, Trying to Find the Logic in the Luka Doncic Deal. | Group Chat
01:19:12
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- [00:02]
Logan Murdoch
What's poppin everybody? Logan Murdoch here from Real Ones on the Ringer NBA show and I wanted to invite you to pull up and kick it with Raja Bell, Howard Beck and myself during All Star Weekend for our live podcast. We're going to be at the historic Punchline Comedy Club in San francisco on Saturday, February 15th at 2pm pregaming all the All Star festivities and you never know who might stop by. Get your tickets now by heading over to ringer.com events. That's ringer.com events. Hope to see you there.
- [00:37]
Justin Barrier
This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. Amazon's your go to for all things hoops, game gear, snacks for the late night tip offs, you name it. And now you can shop for a Hyundai there too. Pick your model and trim from a local dealer, see transparent pricing up front and knock out most of the paperwork online. Then just head to the dealership to finalize the deal. Visit HyundaiUSA.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details. Limited availability only through participating Hyundai dealers in select markets. This program is available for the purchase of new vehicles and is not currently available for lease. This episode is brought to you by Smucker's Uncrustables. There's nothing like a snack that comes in clutch. So who's the real mvp? Uncrustables the best part of the sandwich. It's a round crimped sandwich made with soft pillowy bread filled with peanut butter and jelly. It goes straight from the freezer to your lunchbox, making it easier to pack lunch and sprint out the door. Now that's a morning win. You'll find Smucker's Uncrustables in the freezer aisle. Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney. Big Waz. I would say about this time last week we were gearing up to talk about Drew Eubanks and the cap implications of a swap of PJ Tucker to the Jazz and Eubanks going to the Clippers. A little different now, Rob.
- [02:17]
Rob Mahoney
Well, turns out there were some relevant cap implications, you know, now all of a sudden you can take Jalen Hood Schiffino now you can facilitate the biggest trade in NBA history. You know, turns out to be a pretty important precursor as things go.
- [02:29]
Big Waz
Was, hey man, I'm just grateful that insane things are still possible to happen in the NBA. I think when you do what we do, we become a little bit jaded and just like, oh, nothing surprises me like we're just so like, weathered by consuming so much of this stuff all the time and talking to people and talking about different scenarios and blah, blah, blah. Like, it's just a great feeling to realize that there's still, you know, room to be utterly shocked by what goes on in this league.
- [03:00]
Rob Mahoney
Well, so I was at home on my couch. Devout listeners of the Ringer NBA show will know that Justin was on a date when the Luka Doncic trade news broke. We can get into that if you would like. JV Waz. I want to know how you became aware of what was happening because you. You were not inside, as it were.
- [03:17]
Big Waz
No, I was distinctly outside. We had our event for Grammy weekends. Like, it was nicely well attended, was having a good time, and somebody passed me their phone and was like, yo, is this real? Immediately, and I'm like, I click it. Then I'm like, all right, it's the Verified Shams.
- [03:38]
Rob Mahoney
All right.
- [03:38]
Big Waz
It's the one with millions of followers. Wait, this. This happened. And it was a shock. And then the craziest thing is that, you know, our DJ and the mc, the Homie V Live, who shouts to DJ Night Train, somebody passed.
- [03:53]
Rob Mahoney
Shout out to DJ Nitrain.
- [03:54]
Big Waz
Somebody passed him the phone and was like, bro, this just happened. He's reading. He stops the party. Literally that clip on Bleacher and Sports Illustrated and all these people, like, that was from our event. You. He stopped the party to literally announce. Like, he announced the train. He said, I don't even know what else to say. Play me. I can't. He could. He was just so shocked, he couldn't even speak anymore. So.
- [04:19]
Justin Barrier
So you were like Devin Booker at the Portland game the other night. Yes.
- [04:24]
Big Waz
Safe to say the Lakers fans in attendance were very happy about it. Obviously people love ad, but it's Luka Doncic. Come on.
- [04:31]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, a little. A little bit different. We'll get into that. I think we're going to do some reassessments after a couple days of information has trickled out in that a lot of stuff has seen happen pretty much since that happened Saturday night. But we got to talk about the Deer and Fox trade, which happened Sunday and honestly seemed totally normal. Like a all star fringe, all NBA guy going and becoming the number two for Victor Webanyama, the presumed face of the NBA going forward. Just seems pretty normal, Rob.
- [05:03]
Rob Mahoney
I know, but.
- [05:05]
Justin Barrier
But the full trade if you needed at this point. Fox and Jordan McLaughlin go to the Spurs. Zach Levine, City Sisiko.
- [05:13]
Rob Mahoney
What are we doing here? City soco. Yeah.
- [05:16]
Justin Barrier
Okay. Don't know him. Three first round Picks three second round picks go to the Kings. Bulls get Zach Collins, Trey Jones, Kevin Herder and their own 20, 25 first round pick from the Spurs. So I want to go through each team eventually. But Rob, what's like your, your top line takeaway from this trade.
- [05:36]
Rob Mahoney
That's all it takes to get Dear and Fox. And in particular that's all it takes from the spurs to get Dear and Fox. I think San Antonio made out of this thing like bandits, frankly. Given no Stefan Castle, no Devin Vassell, not even a Jeremy Sohan, no Atlanta unprotected first or future pick swaps included in this deal at all. And one of the first that you mentioned, Justin, that they trade is basically a fake first that's going to default into two seconds very soon. So effectively Trey Jones, Zach Collins, City Sissoko, two firsts and a bunch of seconds that gets you Dear and Fox. Sign. Sign me the fuck up. That's a great deal for the Spurs.
- [06:14]
Big Waz
Yeah, I mean I. This is a no brainer, obvious move. Some people might quibble when they eventually do give this max contract extension to Fox and say, oh, is he the kind of guy who deserves a max contract? Essentially what I would say is next to Victor Wembanyama. Absolutely. Because you have a guy that's going to elevate everything that Fox does. And so it becomes worth getting into the Fox business. Right. And so, yeah, the fact that they didn't have to give up any of their young nucleus for the guy and some people might come and say, oh, him and Castle might be duplicative or blah, blah, blah, whatever, it doesn't matter. They still have all of their young guys that they've clearly been excited about for a while. Gave up, you know, modest draft assets and they get to bring in an all star, borderline fringe all star who is still in his 20s to pair with their big man. It's just amazing, honestly, on their part. And just, you know, just the idea that Zach Lavine, I guess that the league just looked at his contract as so onerous and so unattractive that the Bulls gave him away for a hill of beans, y'all, they, they're not even a hill.
- [07:24]
Rob Mahoney
A gentle pile of beans.
- [07:26]
Big Waz
Their pick was top 10 protected. They were clearly going to be in the top 10. Okay. And so this idea that like, oh, we, we get our pick back, like you were getting that pick and so just to get off of lavine for nothing, just like nobody else wanted to get into Lavine business. I find that to be shocking, honestly.
- [07:45]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, I think we need to do a whole reconsideration of where Zach Lavine is and basically like the effects of rumor mongering and just maybe fear mongering over injuries has done on his value and just to, to guys across the league. But if we're going team team here, let's go with the spurs first because that's obviously the biggest thing here. In addition to just like the pairing of Wemby and Fox, which I think is going to work very nicely, there's some nice pick and roll stats that have been circulating around about like how good Foxes and how good Wemby can be. And just to be able to unlock that end of Wemby I think is going to be fascinating. It's funny because I keep finding myself wanting to be like Victor Wembanyama hasn't played with a guy like that when it's only been a year and a half with Wembley. You just think that he's been here for six, seven years. It's just like, oh, he hasn't been with star caliber point guard, like what can he do with that? It's like, yes, he's a very new player, but like it's an exciting complimentary piece to, to pair with him for that reason. But also I think you guys kind of hit it. The fact that the spurs practically maintained all of the young core that they had for when Wemby was drafted. We got Castle, we got Vassell, we got Sohan, we got Keldon Johnson, we even have the old guard here to still rear the young guys with Barnes and CP3 just presumably moving to the bench and doing what he did in Golden State. For those sorts of guys there are options. But right now this team is suited to make a play in running. So I, I, I love what the spurs did in this.
- [09:06]
Rob Mahoney
Let's just say that right now, just so we're clear, all spurs based bets on this podcast are null and void. This, this is a, this is a.
- [09:14]
Justin Barrier
Huge part of it.
- [09:15]
Rob Mahoney
This is part of it. Yeah.
- [09:17]
Justin Barrier
You always have the option to do more.
- [09:20]
Rob Mahoney
I think we're have to throw that to the committee. I, I, I, I think this might breach legality on the bet.
- [09:25]
Big Waz
I think another thing about this on the spurs side is when you have somebody as young as Wembanyama is and that's as good as he's already shown himself to be, you can come into these negotiations from a position of ultimate strength. It's just like bros. You see the direction our team is going. We are not desperate to make this happen immediately. And so you can come in here and ask the world of us, we don't have to do this deal. Like, we love that Fox wants to be here with us and we think he's a good player and we're willing to give you some level of compensation to get him in here. But I think the parameters of the deal show that the spurs are just like, guys, we will be completely fine. And they can say it with credibility just from the trajectory of their season that they are completely fine standing pat and the future looks amazingly bright.
- [10:17]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, the other thing I want to do here is also do an accounting of some of the draft picks that went to the Kings and then also the Bulls got got a pick. Because I think one thing that's happening just in trade discourse overall is we're just looking at this almost as like a dick measuring contest where it's like Rudy Gobert got five picks and so Luca Donches deserves 12. And it's just like what are the actual value of these picks and like what are they actually worth? There are so many picks being swapped for swaps that are now being swap swap swapped that like it's really tough to determine which picks are actually good picks to the point where I think the tipping point was Danny Ainge basically taking his short position and then changing that for a short position on the Phoenix Suns because the Cavs future and the Wolves future looks good and so we're just like completely discombobled. Here's what I want to introduce here. Just like a system of evaluating picks, a simple A through F system. And if we're using this specific trade as an example, I have given the 2031 unprotected pick for the Minnesota Timberwolves a B because there's a chance down the road that that could get disastrous. At the very least, it's so far in the future we don't know what's going to happen. That could be a juicy pick down the road. I'll give it a B. Not an A, not a sure thing. The spurs pick that ultimately went to 2027 to the Kings, I gave it a C. You know, maybe the spurs haven't hit their stride, but more likely than not late first. But to Rob's point about the Hornets pick 1 to 14 protected this year, most likely going to be 2 seconds. That' d it's not like a complete catastrophe, but that's a D. And so.
- [11:48]
Rob Mahoney
What you ended up getting was not a first though.
- [11:51]
Justin Barrier
If you want to make it an F, I'm down to make it an F as well. If we're just saying that there's no hope that it's going to be a.
- [11:56]
Rob Mahoney
First, I don't think there's any hope that a Charlotte pick that's that protected is going to convey this year. So like that is. That is going to be a second. So seconds are perfectly fine and I think there is virtue in getting a boatload of seconds that can then facilitate other deals.
- [12:09]
Justin Barrier
It's not nothing from Charlotte, which would mean it would be high seconds.
- [12:12]
Rob Mahoney
Yes, Abs, absolutely true. It's just not, it's not quite the same thing.
- [12:16]
Justin Barrier
Okay, but that's the system I want to do going forward here because we're just like completely past the point where like we're actually even trading player for player. Part of the like the shock of Anthony Davis being traded for Luca is that it was like an old school, like almost challenge trade. Just like we're way too deep in. But that's what I would propose going forward here. Do you guys like that?
- [12:34]
Rob Mahoney
I do like it. For the record, Luke, Luka Doncic does deserve 12 first round picks and there probably should have been more stuff involved in that. We can, we can talk more about that later. But overall I agree we're. We're missing the forest for the trees in the sense that it's just about the number of picks and not the quality of picks. That's why I point out the Atlanta deal, because there's some good stuff that the spurs have that could have been involved in a trade like this that a team like Sacramento could have demanded. I, I know we're going to talk about the Kings in a second. I actually think they did perfectly well in this deal given their incentives and kind of where they are as a franchise. But this for the spurs to hold on to their best draft assets while giving up some decent ones, some. Some rolls of the dice. I, I'm totally aligned with you, Justin, that the Minnesota pick is probably the best actual draft asset that's being exchanged in this deal. But overall, like this is a perfectly reasonable pile of stuff to give up for a player of Dear and Fox's caliber. And I say that inclusive of the massive extension that is surely coming. That was alluded to in part because as we're putting everything in context, picks and otherwise, the spurs have one of the lowest payrolls in the league. They have Victor Webanyama and many of their best players on cost control deals moving forward and they will overlap with the Aaron Fox extension. So I'm not worried about the finances I'm impressed that the spurs still have so much to work with. And it was also notable to me that one thing that the spurs do still have was a pick swap. They picked up from the previous three team trade involving these three teams. The DeMar DeRozan deal where they took a 23, 20, 31 pick swap from the Kings just for taking on Harrison Barnes, who is now a good player for their team.
- [14:11]
Justin Barrier
Solid. Yeah. Well, let's talk about the Kings then. Cause I think a big part of this is that they chose Zach Levine over a big honking picks package. They got picks, but Levine is. Is the prize here was what do you think about Levine going to Sacramento? Do you like the fit of basically forming Chicago Bulls 2.0 with DeMar DeRozan in him?
- [14:28]
Big Waz
Yeah, I think it's a little strange that they're just doing the Bulls thing from the previous years that we all thought was pretty mediocre and porting it to Sacramento to reunite these two wings. Whatever, you know, it is what it is. But I think if you want to just sort of zoom out, you can, you can make the case that Zach Lavine and De'Aaron Fox are comparable players and Zach Lavine is going to get paid like max money two years after this one. And you know, if you're just like, look, this guy wanted to leave our team and we've replaced him with a comparable player and we feel satisfied with that, I think they could make that case. It just feels like, you know, nobody really got way better in this deal except for the spurs, which is just, you know, which tends to happen when you get the best player in the deal.
- [15:19]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. But for the Kings to not get way worse while also getting, getting picks, that's not a, not a bad place to end up. The Kings have a lot of motivation to be good now to try to make the playoffs, to try to compete. And yeah, Bulls west is maybe not the most impressive look in the world, but it is a competent one. And, and frankly, we should say, as that construction goes, Damona Sabonis is just a dramatically better player than Vuch is or has been, and is also this season at least a much better spacer than Vuch has been for the majority of his Bulls tenure. So those are real factors that have to be considered. And ultimately I'm. I'm pretty impressed that Sacramento made out this well given the tricky position they were put in with De'Aaron Fox.
- [16:00]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, I would go a step farther and to say this is probably the best version of the Bulls that we ever would have gotten even in the previous iteration where where Lonzo Ball and Alex Crusoe were kind of ripping and running there. Because I do like some of the guys that they have on the fringes. Not only Sabonis being a huge factor in that, but also the fact that like Malik Monk kind of coming into his own as a playmaker, currently averaging career high in assists. So I want to see him almost being the de facto point guard in this like option where like a lot of guys could be ball handling. I imagine DeRozan will be pro primary in that regard. But like Devin Carter, we have the Keegan Murray leap that we've been waiting like what was it, 19 years for at this point. They have a lot of stuff in order to play above their heads in a way that I think they're probably going to be pretty feisty the back half of this season. Probably a little bit better than you'd expect. I think long term is just the pretty typical questions. Maybe like they were always going to face those sorts of things where it's like what is our future. But you know, Levine not only with the injury risk, just kind of caps them as like probably a play in at best, especially considering the west is way more deep than than the east where the Bulls were were doing this.
- [17:08]
Rob Mahoney
What makes them sort of unlikely bedfellows in this deal though is because like the Kings I agree with you, are going to be pretty competitive and pretty good overall. They're fighting for a play in spot. The spurs are not that far behind them and a Spurs team with Darren Fox of all people is going to be dramatically better. It gives them a totally new look, a completely new element to their offense in terms of someone who can actually get downhill and we should say a guard who has a lot of familiarity playing with other point guards, other guards can work with Chris Paul in a lot of lineups that could be really interesting for San Antonio. Like I just think betting on yourself now if you're Sacramento and trying to be as good as you can now is a totally worthy direction and orientation for a deal. But you're doing it with Victor Wamanyama bringing like breathing down your neck effectively and you're helping him do it by, by contributing to this deal. So you don't get to pick where the best trade packages come from. You certainly don't get to pick them when Darren Fox is saying I want to go play for the Spurs. But something of note as we're kind of quantifying how Sacramento lands in this is that they're going to have to deal with the spurs to lock in that play in spot.
- [18:12]
Justin Barrier
And the Blazers six of seven.
- [18:14]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [18:15]
Justin Barrier
Coming up one win shy of the Spurs. We're back, baby.
- [18:20]
Big Waz
The Blazers mouthpiece has spoken. Yeah, I think that's another part of this, is that Vivek and Sacramento's management clearly have no interest in, you know, a down to the studs rebuild. They want to remain competitive, which I think is something to be admirable, and I think they're in a decent position to do so. I don't think they're wrongheaded for thinking that. And it's funny because, you know, they do this trade involving the Bulls, who we've been killing for, like just being on this treadmill of mediocrity for just years and never committing to just like starting over and doing something. I think the Kings are just way better suited to that project than the Bulls have been over the past few years. So it makes more sense.
- [19:02]
Justin Barrier
So much experience.
- [19:04]
Rob Mahoney
Well, look, mediocrity historically for Sacramento is pretty good by, by King's historical standards, mediocrity is no problem. So yeah, the fact that they can be in the mix and fighting for something that's totally fine.
- [19:16]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, the fact that they're literally 500. Exactly 500. As we record this is pretty apropos. Before we go to the Bulls, though, I do want to take a snapshot of the playing race because we're kind of talking around it here. You now, seven through ten, Wolves, sons, Mavs, and then Kings. There's enough of a gap between Wolves and Kings. It's two and a half games that like the, the maybe the Suns, Mavs, Kings are probably on a different tier. That's probably where it starts. After that, warriors, spurs and Blazers somehow, some way still in this mix. Rob, what do you think is going to happen here? Are you. If we were to project the play in mix who are like the four teams you see in it?
- [19:55]
Rob Mahoney
Wolves are in it. Or I mean, Wolves could move up. But I think their position, as you say, is. Is a little bit different from the rest of this group. Dallas is suddenly incredibly, even more so dependent on the health of its core players. And what happens with Anthony Davis's abdominal injury? What happens with Kyrie Irving's bulging disc in his back? What happens with the supporting cast? And when can Derek Lively get back? They are such an injury question mark now that it's really hard to place them. And I think that's where a team like Sacramento all of a sudden feels somewhat dependable in this race, like, they, they may be one of the more consistent and healthier teams of this group. And for that reason alone, I kind of think they're going to end up getting in. I could see the Suns having so many variables. Who knows what's going to happen with them at the deadline. I could see Dallas going really any number of directions given how eventful their weekend has been. And overall, I just don't really trust the warriors to do anything. Clearly, their play at this point is just to say, oh, we almost got Zach Levine, just like they almost got Lowry Markin and just like they almost got Pascal Siak, just like they almost got every relevant player who's ever been on the NBA trade market that they didn't actually trade for. So I think they're going to do something pretty minor ultimately and probably not position themselves well enough. So of this group, I think the Wolves are the sturdiest. After that, the Kings might have as good an argument as anybody.
- [21:11]
Big Waz
Yeah, for sure. I know the Mavericks think they're. Or Nico Harrison, which we'll get into, thinks they're a championship contender right now, which is all fine and good. And you know, obviously their position in the standings is predicated on the fact that they didn't have their superstar player for a month and basically their, their fortunes went into the tank.
- [21:31]
Rob Mahoney
Well, they won't have to worry about that anymore.
- [21:33]
Big Waz
Yes. But now, you know, ad's gonna add his production to what they're doing and that thing will take a new form and you know, there'll be a defensive focus type of team. But to me, the spurs are ascendant, man. Like, they seem to be rising just wind underneath their sails and not just what they were already doing, but now again, a clear talent upgrade at a vital position. You gotta say the spurs are going to be in that mix. And so this is going to be a dog fight between the Suns and all these other teams. Like you said, I think the Timberwolves, just talent wise, they're on a different tier than everybody and just wins wise, like, they've got a nice little cushion against, you know, somebody like San Antonio. But the rest of this stuff is going to be fascinating to watch.
- [22:19]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, I think that the Wolves are very much in there. I completely disagree with you guys. What you guys are saying about the Mavs. I think the Mavs have a chance to be very good throughout the rest of this season. I could see them very much being in the top six as a result of this because as you mentioned, like, their issue hasn't been necessarily how they performed. It's been health. By and large. They have a lot to figure out here, but I think they could be pretty good. We'll. We'll save that for the Luca conversation. I think the spurs very much number three in that regard. And then like sons and warriors, who the fuck knows? As we're recording this, like the warriors are saying that they're out on Jimmy Butler because they won't give him an extension, or Jimmy Butler is saying he doesn't want to go there because they don't want to give it. It's hard to really track. I imagine by the time we're done recording this podcast, let alone tomor, it will be a completely different thing where they probably end up with Kevin Durant and we'll just go from there. But those are the three teams and then it's probably Suns or Warriors. Depends on who takes a step forward because that's the thing. It's like practically everybody in the west is loading up here. It's going to be kind of a dogfight at this point. So those are the four. What were you going to say, Rob? I cut you off?
- [23:17]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, just that the spurs needed this. They've really been dragging lately. Their offense has been pretty up and down all season long, getting Deer and Fox as a shot in the arm at the exact time where they needed a shot in the arm and the exact time where even a good young team can have the vibes start to turn a little bit. And so to get some fresh blood, to get some new energy, to get some momentum, I think is really important. And we should also say, as you know, in conjunction with that, this was not the structure of a deal that the spurs could get done on their own. They did not have a Zach Levine kind of player to offer the Kings. They only had picks and young talent and, you know, some veteran ballast, but no one of Zach Levine's caliber. No Star for Star, who we could credibly say is like reasonably on the level of Dear and Fox as we have, the spurs couldn't get this done on their own. And so it is only by the grace of the Bulls doing whatever the hell it is that they think that they're doing here, that this kind of trade came together.
- [24:10]
Justin Barrier
Let's talk about the Bulls. Another the last component of this trade. So again was here's what they got back for Zach LaVine, who I at least put into the All Star mix this year, you would say, I think, and everyone would agree here, probably fringe All Star at worst this season Based on how he's performed. Zach Collins, Trey Jones, Kevin Herder, who hasn't been very good lately, and their own first round pick that they gave to the spurs as a result to the DeMar DeRozan signing trade. So basically they got some flotsam and their own future back. Yeah, but that Pick is top 10 protected this year, and it is top eight, top eight the following two years. They are currently ninth worst in the NBA. So on the one hand, you do regain control of your destiny. You don't have to deal with this looming threat in the background. But they probably most likely weren't going to fork that pick over this year anyway. And their, I guess their, their reward here is peace of mind. What's going on?
- [25:10]
Big Waz
Look, it's been 18 months of them trying to move this kid and whatever, I guess to them is just like, look, we got this monkey off of our back in terms of his contract and his injury history. We get that when he's right. He's a very productive, one of the most efficient scorers in the NBA at volume. Um, however, injury history, contract combined, we sh, we look, we listen. They, they heard every offer possible for the guy. It's been that long.
- [25:41]
Rob Mahoney
Basically.
- [25:42]
Big Waz
Yo, he was on the trade block essentially once Lonzo Ball got hurt and the season started to go a different way after that year, the first year after his extension or whatever, pretty much after that. And so it's been that long. They're deeply intimate with what the realistic offers were. And to them, unprotecting their first round pick was enough. It is, it is shocking how little they got for Zach Lavine. And it's just, I don't know, it just makes me wonder, like other teams that call themselves, you know, trying to compete, trying to improve the talent, how they just didn't feel like Zach Lavine was worth the trouble. I think that that's striking to me that the rest of the league is so down on this guy.
- [26:28]
Rob Mahoney
I think it is mostly because of the relationship between how injured he often is and how many games he misses and how big his salary commitment is. Like, teams get very spooked at the idea of like $45 million of dead money. Of dead money for a season at a time, understandably. Like that's. That is a tough pill to swallow in this CAP environment.
- [26:47]
Justin Barrier
34,340 million of a supermax. Yeah, everyone just doesn't want to pay anything anymore.
- [26:52]
Rob Mahoney
Apparently not. I would say those are two quite different financial propositions. But even the Zach Levine one, if you're A team like the Warriors, I don't understand why that isn't just like something that you're willing to do, why that isn't a step that you're willing to take. I don't understand if you're Chicago, why a deal hadn't been made at some previous point in these 18 months when there were better offers on the table, when there were other deals to consider that would have brought you back more than a pick that you already would have had anyway. Because, as we said, they were going to keep it this year over the next two years. Do we really think a tanking Chicago Bulls team, which is what they are, if they're trading Zach Levine, was going to be outside of the top eight in the draft? They were probably going to keep it through both of those seasons. And so you're acquiring a primary return of a pick you probably would have had anyway, along with some perfectly okay role players for Zach lavine. I just don't think that's an acceptable outcome. Especially when the primary problem for the Bulls was that they have spent the last couple years not knowing what they wanted, not knowing what they wanted to do, not knowing what they should be targeting in a deal, not knowing what Zach Levine should be able to get them even with his complicated trade market. Just like a. A complete blunder by the Bulls.
- [28:02]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, if I were to mount a defense of the Bulls, is that they finally, after years, have come to a conclusion that they are a tanking team, that they need to bottom out in order to reset this team. Unfortunately, they've just done it in fits and starts in a way that they really haven't acquired much for the players that they've had in order to just, like, kind of prop up this. This era of mediocrity that they've been on. Man, it's been a very long time. It's practically been since Fibs left there, like a couple. What is it, probably over a decade at this point now. And so I give them credit for finally ripping the band aid and going down this path and believing in their young guys and trying to maybe play for a future superstar, but they really don't have much to show for it other than, like, if you want to hang, like, the one playoff series, I think they have one playoff win in the DeMar DeRozan, Zach Levine, Lonzo Ball era. And if you want to hang a banner, it might look a little weird next to all the Jordan titles, but by all means, I'll say this, though. I like Trey Jones. I think he's A totally solid player. Sure, I would. Honestly, if I'm a contender, if I'm like the Minnesota Timberwolves, I'd be trying to get that guy in here. Just basically do Tyus Jones 2.0 for us. He's like, he's good, but that's the best I could do for them.
- [29:20]
Rob Mahoney
Perfectly serviceable backup point guard. And as. As far as getting your own pick, back goes the one * I will put on that. That's to the Bull's benefit is because they have control of their own pick now. They're a little bit more flexible if they wanted to trade future picks for something, but they shouldn't do that because they're going to be bad. So theoretically, they are more flexible, but not in a way that's actually useful.
- [29:43]
Justin Barrier
I'm just honestly shocked that the Bulls, a market that was. Correct me if I'm wrong, guys would like to play in because it is a big metropolitan city. Like, it seems like they've just never used that to their. They're one of the biggest markets in the NBA, but they act like they're. I don't know.
- [29:58]
Big Waz
I think that's the thing. They are a huge market, an attractive market, Great American city, no doubt about it. However, you know, their ownership treats it like it's a triple A team. Their ownership is so cheap and just so, like. I don't know, like, the way they treat the team is like an afterthought. And it's like, got this rich tradition having been the team that Michael Jordan played, you know, 95% of his career at. It's just. I think that that lack of sheen of shine on the franchise is because of the ownership. And I think that's why they find themselves being rudderless all the time. Just bad management, sticking with the wrong people for way too long. Just like. Just this idea of just like, no, we're gonna, you know, be on the pedal, the sort of hamster wheel of mediocre for as long as humanly possible and, like, have to be dragged out kicking and screaming from the Jonas, you know, excuse me, from the Vucci Main era. It's like it's just so poorly ran. And I think that's what you're seeing when you don't see, like, this impetus from other people to be dying to play for the Bulls.
- [31:10]
Justin Barrier
All right. Speaking of cheap, could I actually.
- [31:12]
Rob Mahoney
I want to bring up one more thing that may be a good pivot point for us, Justin, which is when I was combing through all these picks that the spurs have come in their way as a result of all the other deals that they've done that allowed them to make this deal. There's one thing that popped up that hadn't really registered for me until today. The spurs actually have a pick swap with the Dallas Mavericks in 2030. That could be pretty juicy going forward. That could be suddenly, you know, the kind of asset that could mean something in a deal, which I did not anticipate saying a day or go two days ago, a week ago, God knows. Like I'm I'm stunned that we got here with the Mavs putting themselves in this position, but the spurs could be an ancillary beneficiary of it.
- [31:57]
Justin Barrier
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- [34:19]
Logan Murdoch
Now@Gnc.Com this episode is supported by State Farm. Man, I remember when I first got into a car accident it was pure frustration because I did not have State Farm. And now that I do have State Farm, it is an exclamation of pure joy. But the only words that you need to remember are like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. State Farm has options to fit your unique insurance needs, meaning you can talk to your agent to choose the coverage you need, have coverage options to protect the things you value most, file a claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and even reach a real person when you need to talk to someone. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Learn more@state farm.com this episode is brought to you by Rocket Money. The start of a new year is the perfect time to get organized, set goals and prioritize what matters most. For me, a top priority is financial wellness, which feels more important than ever. And that's where Rocket Money comes in. They show you all of your subscriptions right in one place and help you easily cancel the ones that you forget you've been paying for. Rocket Money also pulls together all of your spending across different accounts so you can clearly attract spending habits and where you can cut back. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spendings, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money's dashboard gives you a clear view of your expenses across all of your accounts. Easily create a personalized budget with custom categories to keep your spending on track. See your monthly spending trends in each category to know where your money is going. Get alerts if bills increase in price, there's unusual spending activity, or if you're close to going over budget. The new goals feature automatically saves money for you so you don't have to think about it. Pay off credit card debt, put away money for a house, or just build your savings. Rocket Money makes it easy. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of 500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year. When using all the app's premium features, cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Ringer today. That's RocketMoney.com Ringer let's talk about the LUCA deal.
- [36:29]
Justin Barrier
So we obviously Rob and I talked about it over the weekend. I want to start from this point and give the floor to Was because he hasn't had a chance to weigh in. This is a tweet from Igwaz on Twitter. Maybe you've heard of him. This is crazier than the decision was.
- [36:47]
Big Waz
It is just on the. Just on the surprise factor. Even with the decision, like Stephen A. Had kind of reported that it was. We knew LeBron was probably changing teams.
- [36:58]
Justin Barrier
Yes.
- [36:58]
Big Waz
You know, there was like this. And again, he was like the same age Luka is right now. Like, he was clearly the best player in the NBA. He clearly had so much room left in his prime. It was just like, this is crazy that this kind of guy is probably changing teams. But there was, you know, I know at the time I was like, ah, this is LeBron. He's like gonna do the corny thing and just stay in Cleveland and do the hometown thing. I didn't think he was actually leaving, so I was definitely shocked. But this is way crazy. Cause there's just been nothing beyond. And again. And people thought I was talking crap. Like we said this on the show. Like the Lakers, you know, part of the reason why they refused to move on from 2029 and 2031 first round picks. They've been telling people that they think they're going to play it. They've been telling people we think we got a shot at Luka Doncic. And because the Lakers have been doing this type of bluster for literally like 15 years now, where the Lakers.
- [37:54]
Rob Mahoney
That's conservative, I would say.
- [37:55]
Big Waz
Well, in the Twitter era, you know, where people are photoshopping pictures of every single superstar in the NBA at some point with a Lakers jersey on.
- [38:06]
Rob Mahoney
See you in Photoshop. I say manifesting the tides have turned in that.
- [38:10]
Big Waz
Exactly. And so, you know, there was an idea that the Lakers probably thought they could get Luka at some point in his career. It absolutely. Nobody was saying they were trading for him at the deadline. Nobody thought that. And so to see this Happen. Like, the first thing that comes to my mind is like, it's an idea that maybe they got an inkling that Luca wasn't going to sign the deal this summer. And the 355 year, 350 million five year deal again, an insane contract, supermax contract that he's already qualified for. Because just to remind folks, this Guy's already made five first team, all NBAs. He's 25 years old, okay? And so I'm like, okay, maybe there was an inkling that this kid wasn't gonna sign, not that he said he didn't eventually want to do it. That maybe they got the sniff that he didn't wanna do it this summer and they wanted to get out ahead of things. Okay, maybe that's the case then. You know, you get to talking to some people who would know when around the situation, it's like, no fam. Like, maybe Luka might have said, ah, I don't know, we'll see if we'll do it this summer. But there was no indication from his crew that he wasn't gonna do this. And the bottom line is he's losing out on $117 million because he got traded. And so I went from thinking this was a Luca, sort of, I'm not long for Dallas. Inkling that Dallas management, Nico Harrison, the Adelsons, were like, you know what? Let's get out of this right now and move on to, like, maybe. No maybe. Dallas was just straight up, like, we don't want Luka Doncic anymore, which to me is professional malpractice. Like, I. I don't. I just didn't want to jump on the cuz. I think with people in our profession because all of their contacts around the league hadn't heard it because, you know, everybody basically got scooped. Everybody's taken by surprise. There's this, like, what feels like knee jerk. Like, Nico Harrison is a complete and utter idiot. And that's the only way this could have happened without us seeing it coming, right? Which I just want to go against, like, this idea that, like, this guy's wholly incompetent. But, man, I gotta say, man, the more that I talk to people, the more that I speak to people, bro, the more it feels like, yo, this dude just straight up just did this. And, like, just the idea that you don't sign Luka first and then trade him with the cost control, even as, like, people are gonna be lining up to be down with this dude, I don't wanna hear about. And again, you know, we get this isn't like rumor mongering. You talk to anybody in the NBA, you hear about the guy's eating habits. He likes beer a lot. He does apparently smoke hookah in the off season. You know, I've heard that, you know, it's not crazy to think that the guy smoke is firing up heaters every now and again a la Vladi Divach, you know, and you know, the old Yugoslavian guys. Um, yeah, I've heard all of those things.
- [41:21]
Rob Mahoney
That being said, who gives a fuck?
- [41:23]
Big Waz
Come on.
- [41:24]
Rob Mahoney
Just literally, who gives?
- [41:25]
Big Waz
32, 9 and 8 in the conference finals last year. He outplayed Shay Gilgis Alexander head to head in the playoffs last year. Who everybody says if he's not number two, he's number three. Because Shay is number two in the world right now. He's 25. This is just, it's, it's, it's, it's incomprehensible that even if you wanted to move on from him.
- [41:46]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, I like the way you frame that though, because I do think the inclination is just a pile on and to not really consider the different aspects to this. And like I don't think anybody in the position of Nico Harrison is just acting completely irrational. And so like the idea that like this wasn't spurred by X, Y and Z, like at the very least we should consider those things. And to that point, when I recorded on Saturday night and we should mention up top, like probably wasn't in this state both emotionally and maybe sober wise in order to record that podcast, I basically just walked in the door, we fired up the mics and I was like, oh, this is probably just the classic NBA situation where the player wanted out, they jumped ahead of them and because they're a win now team, they went and got a wooden out player in order to supplement Kyrie Irving, all these older guys in order to do so. And I think there's like a perfectly reasonable line of thinking if that's the way they want it to go. Unfortunately it came out after the fact that it seemed like they, if anything jumped the gun on the situation and they're ones were the ones driving this. I think when you hear the first thing like Luca to la, it's like, oh, he was going to get there eventually, you know, and I think we should factor that in because it's like, oh well, why didn't they talk to Milwaukee? And all these other teams were just like, oh well, you know, he has a year left on his deal and then a player option after this one so he could be a 20, 26 free agent. Like, oh, there's like reasonable reasons why you would just go to la, because maybe he would get there eventually. But even if you're trying to think about these rationally, like you ultimately come to the conclusion that like one, they didn't even just get the best deal overall and they didn't get the best deal from the Lakers because they didn't get like the extra picks and all this other stuff.
- [43:27]
Rob Mahoney
And so God forbid Austin Reeves, God forbid Dalton connect, dude, you couldn't possibly.
- [43:32]
Big Waz
Get Dolphins sent out a second round pick.
- [43:36]
Justin Barrier
Second is, is the worst possible. Almost as if they felt it was incumbent upon them in order to facilitate this, in order to make it happen. Yeah, that's pretty bad.
- [43:46]
Rob Mahoney
They got absolutely taken in this, like, absolutely host. And I, look, I am, I'm with you guys. Like my inclination is to give people the benefit of the doubt, to try to zoom out, to try to understand it. But these are things that Nico Harrison said in the press conference after announcing this deal was. It's not just what, what you have heard and what I've also heard, that Luca did not make any gesture that he was ready to leave, that he was trying to leave, that he was trying to go to the Lakers. Nico Harrison said on the record, Luca gave no indication that he was trying to leave in free agency, that he wanted off the team, that he wanted out of Dallas. He said on the record that he talked to one team and it was the Los Angeles Lakers. Admitting that into a microphone is a fireable offense, like should be a fireable offense. That is horrific. The fact that you have, even if you decided, and I would never agree to it, that you should trade Luka Doncic, that you would not actually gauge the market for what Luka Doncic. Luka Doncic, that you couldn't even stoke enough interest within the one trade partner you have artificially selected to get more picks, more players, more things of actual value from them. And I say that with no disrespect to Anthony Davis, who is a hell of a player, but the Mavs could have and should have gotten more.
- [44:58]
Justin Barrier
Well, could, can we, can we actually take that point you said about like asking other teams there if this was a normal situation and we basically have to have two tracks of conversation where it's like the normal brain versus what actually happened. But if this is normal brain, where he only wants to get to la, I do think it matters.
- [45:14]
Rob Mahoney
But that's not what's happening, right?
- [45:17]
Justin Barrier
Well, yes, but I'm just saying in this hypothetical situation that we're saying, like, it probably would have set off alarm bells to other teams if he's. If they're fielding other offers from other teams that they wouldn't have ultimately gotten the best package that they. That they got. I think it would have been quite diminished. We would have been in a deer and fox sort of situation where it's like, let's get some stuff and some picks and that's it. And you know my feeling about picks where it's like, you know, the picks weren't good, but having said that, they ultimately, again, didn't get the best version of the offer from the Lakers. So even if you're dealing just with the Lakers, they didn't get probably equal value or even close to that.
- [45:52]
Big Waz
And there's also the part where once you declare it's open season on Luka Doncic, that's done. Like, the. Luka coming back is done. And teams, they like sharks, man, they know there's chum in the water. And if they're like, oh, you can't go back and just bring Luka back, like, now. You have to move him. And I think that affects the market. I just. I just think, even with all of that being said, man, like, this is the exact kind of player, again, that it actually makes sense to move heaven and earth for because of the age. Plus the track record, right? Like, the track record in the postseason, like, there's no holes in his track record outside of. And again, if I'm going to be charitable to Nico Harrison and these guys, they're with Luka every day. Definitely overweight to start the season. He's definitely dealing with these nagging injuries. And I talked about it on the show today, like, yo, a lot of this is like, yo, when you're not in shape, you do get these calf strains. You are, like, overusing other parts of your body that can lead to these nagging injuries. Right? There is the lack of, you know, 365 dedication to conditioning, to making yourself. And again, like, I use Jokic as an example. He's not in the best. Like, he doesn't look like all svelte and all of that stuff, but in playing shape, this guy can go out and give you 40 good minutes every night, you know, and because he's dedicated himself to that level of conditioning, like, the lack of dedication to around the clock, you know, dedicate yourself to your body and make sure you're that kind of player, you know, I get it. Of course, you know, Luka comes with his Own team, his own nutritionist, his own strength coach, his own.
- [47:45]
Justin Barrier
What are they doing, by the way? What. What is. What's going on with that nutritionist?
- [47:48]
Big Waz
Yeah, you. If Luka ever fires you, I don't know how you ever get another job in that profession.
- [47:52]
Justin Barrier
If that's the resolves, as opposed to the camels.
- [47:55]
Rob Mahoney
It's healthy.
- [47:57]
Big Waz
I just. I just can't believe you do this because you don't think you can win with Luka Doncic. I mean, that just seems insane. Like, this idea that this is like, availability, as if he's like some Zion Williams or even Embiid, who, even if you want to say he's an MB type, the Sixers is just like, who cares? We're still all in. This guy's just too good to give up. And so just.
- [48:21]
Rob Mahoney
And Luka is much better than Joel Embiid.
- [48:23]
Big Waz
He's much better.
- [48:24]
Rob Mahoney
But he has a playoff performer. Much better.
- [48:26]
Big Waz
That you don't give this guy the deal and then figure it out after. It's just, man, that is going to be something that I will have a hard time understanding forever.
- [48:35]
Rob Mahoney
It's going to haunt Nico Harrison for a long time. It's going to haunt the Mavericks franchise for a very long time. And they have pissed off a clear and established competitor who every time you light a fire under him, does something better and better and better every single time. They've traded him in the conference to a potential rival and now have to watch as he becomes his best self. Now I have to watch as he learns about Erawan for the first time. And, you know, he's eating green, he's doing well.
- [49:00]
Justin Barrier
I.
- [49:01]
Rob Mahoney
The more that I have sat with this trade and the more I have absorbed the information that is being put out publicly by the Mavs, the things you hear privately from sources behind the scenes, I have come to exactly one conclusion about this, which is that Dallas had something really unique. They had a singular superstar creator who processes the game in a way that we've never really seen before. One of the most accomplished 25 year olds in the history of the sport. 5 All NBA selections. As we said, a Finals run, a separate Western Conference Finals run, all of these international accolades, a scoring title, the list goes on and on. And with that, with a player of that caliber, you make certain kinds of accommodations. You make exceptions to your rules for players like that. That's what teams do for greatness. That's. You make space for it to be itself. And the Mavs decided they didn't want to do that anymore. They wanted to be ordinary. They wanted to be an ordinary ass team that's going to be probably a really good defense because they have Anthony Davis and they have other good defensive players that's going to play a pretty traditional style. I just think if Luka Doncic doesn't fit your vision for what you want your basketball team to be, you need to change your vision because it is, it's too limiting.
- [50:12]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, I almost feel like it probably comes down to the personal element of this more than we're probably used to for this. Not only because Nico Harrison is. He comes from the Nike background and so he's new to the NBA world. I'm not going to try to discredit the fact that like he has all these connections. Those connections are very valuable because look what we've seen with Rob Polinka being Kobe's Asian knowing guys. Bob Meyer, same thing. Those guys come from non traditional backgrounds, have had success in that regard. But like, even if you look at the moves that they've made that have been successful, the Kyrie Irving trade, first and foremost, where he took a risk, made a win now move in order to prioritize the present and it paid off. Even the Daniel Gafford trade, the PJ Washington trade, similar sort of logic where he prioritized what is happening now in order to make the best possible version of that. We were probably all on the other side of that thing. We're like, oh well, what about the long term effects of this? They're getting rid of all the other picks, like, oh, and it worked out. And more credit to them. They went to the NBA Finals. Awesome moves. It seems like he applied that logic and was almost emboldened by that and whatever other like personal disagreements you have with Luca, the friction that he causes for an NBA franchise and was like, I'm going to do the same fucking thing. I'm going to double down on this, this recipe for success and just like roll that in there. Get a guy in, Anthony Davis, who he clearly has a professional relationship with. Davis waved his, his trade kicker in order to be a part of the Mavs because he knows Nico Harrison back to the Nike days. And so it's like a big conglomeration of like ego plus personal relationships plus like the fact that like he is probably working from a place of strength not only because of like the past success with the trades, but also because he is now working for an ownership that probably doesn't know what the fuck they're doing because they just got an NBA team. And so like this big, like, word cloud of things has just, like, all happened in a perfect storm sort of way. And so it's like, I want to give him benefit of doubt. I'm trying to see things both sides. Ultimately, I come to the conclusion, and it doesn't make fucking sense.
- [52:07]
Rob Mahoney
No. Luka Doncic, if your framework is, let's get the best win now player we can get, Luka Doncic is a better win now player than Anthony Davis. You lost. If your goal is to be a championship contender this season, you lost. So I. I don't. I don't know where they're coming from. I look at a team now, and we talked about this some as we're kind of dissecting the Western Conference playoff picture. I think the injury risks are real, and that's why there's such a big variable. They're going to have to dramatically reimagine the way they play on the fly. That's a. A huge variable to throw into the middle of a regular season, especially in a race this tight. But ultimately, Justin, I agree with you that there is talent here. There is a structure of a team that can work on some level, and I would say work especially on defense. But the Mavs have gone from one of the most advanced playmaking teams in the league and problem solvers in the league because of Luka Doncic, to fielding what will probably be the worst passing lineups of any serious team in the league. Like, assuming the new starters are Kyrie Irving, Klay Thompson, P.J. washington, AD and whoever is healthy between Gafford and Lively, that's some of the worst passing lineups of any actually competitive team.
- [53:15]
Justin Barrier
That's the sticking point. Like, I actually think that there's a pathway that the Mavs can be very good this year. Now, let's separate that from the future. The next, like, what, 10 years of Luca probably playing for the Laker for the Lakers. The. I'm saying Luca, Lakers, basically is one thing now. It's funny. I was like. I was going through, like, the spurs stuff, and I was like, oh, Devin Fischer, like, you know, he's. He can still be better. Like, he's a good player. There's still, like, a Runway for him. He's 24 years old. And I was like, look. Look is literally one year older than this motherfucker. And I'm like, look at all this future ahead for him. But if we're just saying this season for the. For the Mavs, I see it, you know, if they're healthy and they're engaged I actually like the talent and the way that it connects. I think Kyrie has been an all star caliber player. I do think, like the basic model that they've had for a while. Plus AD Works because I think AD has suddenly become like the biggest dog shit player in the world based on how people are talking about him. He's a top 10 player.
- [54:11]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, yeah.
- [54:12]
Justin Barrier
31 years old, gonna be 32 in March, I believe. To get him back, I think, is still a boon. The problem is, again, it's always in the finer points here that they're already talking about playing him as a power forward. And we've talked about this over and over again. This motherfucker is a center. And if you're trying to do him a solid, if you're trying to bring out the best version of him, get him on your side, you're probably messaging that he's a power forward. And even in the best case scenario where he starts at power forward, finishes at center, that's still not good enough. They should be playing him at center, bringing Gafford off the bench, because why is P.J. p.J. Washington, excuse me, playing the three? He's like the perfect four to play with. Anthony Davis, you have the model where you have like the, the Nico Meritage types, the, the Ryan Anderson types that like bulky four who could stretch is actually the perfect to play next to him in the front court. I was like, oh, there's synergy there. That's great. Like, PJ Washington is going to be great for him. No, they don't want to do it.
- [55:09]
Big Waz
So here's the thing. The last time AD played with Real Centers was 2020, when they won the championship. And J Kid was on that staff. So like, you talked about the personal connections here, and I think there's a couple of things I want to hit on. One, like, yes, J Kid, him and AD Have a great relationship. Nico Harrison, you know, we mentioned he comes from Nike. He was the Kobe guy over there. But he also had a great relationship with AD in his capacity as a Nike guy. And also, you know, the clutch part of it matters. I think, like, they got in touch with clutch and it's like, yo, AD Is like more than happy to be there. Absolutely. Get it done. We won't get in the way of this at any point. And you know, probably they were. They felt like they didn't need to drive the hardest bargain because they were getting somebody who they truly really think is a great and a special player. Although, again, like, he's 31. We know what? This guy is. Yes. He's top 10. Yes. But, like, I'm sorry, like, he's not going to replace Luka Doncic's production. Whatever. Another thing about Nico Harris and the personal touches of all of this. Nico Harrison. Excuse me. Some people brought it to my attention that Dennis Lindsay was in the front office last year.
- [56:31]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [56:32]
Big Waz
And he's since gone.
- [56:33]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [56:34]
Big Waz
And you know, some people, like, look, man, like, who are we gonna give credit to these savvy deals? To the guy who has a proof and track record in his time in Utah being not just competent, a pretty damn good GM when he was over there, or the person who has absolutely zero experience and just traded Luka Doncic for Anthony Davis again? I just want people to understand all the angles here. It really does. It really does feel like management was just sick of working with Luka Doncic, which seems wholly absurd to me. It flies in the face of everything we know about the NBA. You know, like, take like Boston with Jaylen Brown, you know, a mercurial kind of guy. Definitely, you could say the contract was like, okay, this is pretty damn expensive and all of that stuff. But they was like, no, this is the nucleus of a championship situation. We're going to pay him $300 million and we'll figure out the rest later. We'll figure out what we got to do with these other guys later.
- [57:38]
Rob Mahoney
There are 25 teams out there whose general manager and coach and staff are low key, annoyed with their star at basically any given point in a couple exceptions to the rule, guys who really know how to, like, go along to get along. But by and large, these are players who make exceptional demands on a franchise, who put you in weird kind of philosophical positions as a front office and as a staff. And you. You do have to make exceptions for. And you do have to learn to live with. You know what it sounds like to me that's a you problem. Nico Harrison.
- [58:05]
Justin Barrier
I get it.
- [58:07]
Rob Mahoney
Do you?
- [58:08]
Justin Barrier
A little bit.
- [58:09]
Rob Mahoney
Just. Just you and a couple Lucas over here.
- [58:11]
Justin Barrier
But unlike Nico Harrison, you know, we. You power through and you just make do.
- [58:15]
Rob Mahoney
It's big of you. You zooming out a little bit. There is the baffling decision to trade Luka Doncic. There is the complete mismanagement of the process by which you traded him and did not pursue offers. There's the fact that you did trade him and now you have to live with the consequences of that. And then there has been the selling of that deal. And I would say, in particular the ensuing press conference where I've Already mentioned some of Nico Harrison's remarks. I will say overall too, just has the air of somebody who does not understand the magnitude of what he just did. And I say that not only professionally, but like I have become as a former citizen of Dallas, basically a full time therapist for all of the people I know who follow the Mavericks, my mother included. Mama Mahoney, I apologize for everything you've been put through over the last couple days. She's.
- [59:03]
Justin Barrier
We're sorry, Mom.
- [59:03]
Rob Mahoney
It's, it's tough times for Nico Harrison to go into that press conference hyuck hyucking like trying to crack bad jokes. I, I genuinely like don't know what planet he is living on and what planet he has been living on where collectively the NBA world. And I say this, not just Twitter, not just media, people like us, people who work in the league, do not understand how or why this happened. And that is, that's like the professional environment that you are living in where all of your peers are looking at you saying, what did you just do? And why did you do it that way? And all of Mavs fans are looking at you and saying, you traded away the player we have dedicated and like invested in over seven plus years for absolutely no discernible reason, with no cogent explanation as to why it happened. And you're up here cracking bad jokes. Like that's the tone you want to strike with this.
- [59:59]
Justin Barrier
The press conference was weird. I've only, I didn't watch it, but I've seen the dribbles of information that have come out as a result of this. And I think there's a pathway where they could have just sold this as like what we just kind of outlined where it was. Hey, Luke is going to want out eventually. We got ahead of this. We want, we are a win now team. We're going to win now. That's our future. And, and that's all you really say about it. But then he said like nine different other things and so he kind of like mixed the message where like, let's just say that wasn't even the case. He could have fucking lied. He could have. Oh, he's, he's going to get out eventually. This is why I did this. Like, I don't know what happened. Like, this is all Lucas fault. Didn't even do that. And so like, even if you want to give him credit for that regard, like he kind of blew past that because then he said a couple other things. He's like, you want to be a defensive team? Which was like, that was the worst part of this, like they were already a pretty solid defensive team. And as we've seen time and time, the Celtics are taking 53 pointers. A game like defense is a critical, critical component. But you need the creators, you need the offense.
- [60:55]
Big Waz
They lost to the Celtics, who were like an all time great offensive opponent. They didn't lose because their defense wasn't good enough. And then the idea that like how you stop a team like the Celtics from blitzing you is more bigs is a strange, just a strange hypothesis.
- [61:17]
Rob Mahoney
I would actually go as far as to say too that a huge reason they lost that series was because when they needed Kyrie Irving to create one on one, he could not do it. That is now your not only your primary creator, your only non Spencer Dinwiddie creator.
- [61:30]
Justin Barrier
I'll say this Spencer Dinwiddy been fine this year. Incredible backup point guard.
- [61:35]
Rob Mahoney
He's not Luka Doncic. I don't know what the fuck.
- [61:38]
Big Waz
And another, another thing you have to ask yourself, like what is happening with the ownership here? Because they seem to be completely asleep at the wheel and just don't care.
- [61:50]
Justin Barrier
Because they have other things going on right now.
- [61:52]
Big Waz
Yeah, I know, but like just the idea that you just let like this is, this is like $400 million, $500 million in franchise valuation. You just let walk out the door. Like, what are you doing as an ownership group that you would let Luka Doncic. Again, I can't say this enough. You can't trade Luka Doncic unless he absolutely forces you to. Period. And again, to reiterate, by all indications from everybody that I've spoken to and I've tried my hardest to be like, what, like what is happening over there?
- [62:30]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [62:31]
Big Waz
Luka Doncic was not who spearheaded this move. Guys. Nope.
- [62:35]
Justin Barrier
Just like some beer. And other guys just didn't like that about him.
- [62:38]
Rob Mahoney
I know. Imagine an NBA player who smokes and likes beer. That's crazy.
- [62:43]
Justin Barrier
No one has ever done that in the history of the game. Can we talk about the Lakers? Just as currently constructed now because we kind of went through the Mavs. Just fascinating. Just absolutely one of the most fascinating combinations that probably I have ever seen watching basketball. The fact that LeBron James, still playing at an all star level, but obviously fading into the his waning years, here is going to be married with a guy who's similar in type but like at the peak of his powers, like Rob, what do you think this year for the Lakers? There's a lot to figure out with them. They probably need lead a center, let alone like maybe like two, maybe even three. So I imagine they're going to be still pretty active here before the deadline on Thursday. What do you think about them just this season alone in terms of what they're capable of in the West?
- [63:29]
Rob Mahoney
It's really hard to say because defensively they were so reliant on AD when he was in the lineup and without him it's just been such tough sledding with those bigs like Jackson. Hayes is not a credible enough big on either side of the ball. Christian Coloko, for as much I like him as a prospect, is not the level of big you want for a Luka Doncic led team. Like the goalposts have moved in terms of what you need from your supporting players. If there is literally any downside to this move for the Lakers, and I don't really think there is one, but if there is one, the pressure and the, and the heat has turned up a little bit as far as, okay, now you need to get together a relatively even more competitive team. We should say the Lakers are fifth place in the West. They're not doing too, too shabbily at the moment, but they need to figure some things out before the deadline. I think there are a bunch of bigs on the market who could make sense for them. They were able to maintain some of their critical trade assets to make a deal like that happen. Whether you want to talk about Robert Williams, whether you're talking about Jonas Valentunas, who I don't really like the fit of, you know, Clint Capella, like there's, there's bigs out there at varying ranges of salary and health and availability who could just make sense for the Lakers to make something happen. Right now the bigger existential question they need to ask is to what extent are they still or will they be a LeBron James team? Luka is going to have the ball in his hands a ton. He's one of the best creators in the league. Is the partnership between Luka and LeBron a thing that is happening for the next couple months? Or is that something that is happening as LeBron kind of goes off into the sunset and is handing the baton not just as, you know, IR wing playmaker to, you know, upstart, like heir apparent, but as face of the Lakers to face of the Lakers?
- [65:00]
Big Waz
Yeah, I don't think they need to ask themselves if they're a LeBron James SE. They're not. It's over. They have completely moved on from being in the LeBron business. LeBron is, I don't want to say wholly irrelevant, but in terms of the decision making and the sort of overall thrust of the team, it's now all Luka dominated and you know, like, it's now just like LeBron, like, look, we're happy that you're here, but we don't need to listen to anything you have to say anymore because we now have our 25 year old superstar of the future for the next 10 years. We are set around building a winner around that guy. Now two, if you think Jeanie Buss and Rob Pelinka gonna build some competent championship contender around Luka, God bless. I don't know that I trust those people to actually execute on what they've now inherited in terms of this massive talent. But the LeBron part of this is like, yo, LeBron, like you're ancillary to what happens in this organization now. We have the younger, hotter version of you now. And that has just been made plainly clear. So even the stuff about like, oh, why are we taking a step back? Why are we doing this? Doesn't matter. When it comes to LeBron and his chirping, it's like, bro, we have Luka, bro. And that's how we're operating. We're a LUCA organization now.
- [66:23]
Justin Barrier
So what I heard from all that is you like them thick, you like the LUCA types, have a little smoke on a weekend types, you know, sir doesn't smoke all the time, but you know, when you start drinking, sir, you need to relax.
- [66:42]
Big Waz
But yeah, that's basically the direction it's going. I do wonder if getting with LeBron will have some positive effects on these off court habits that we've mentioned. If he will ever be the kind of person that gets on a LeBron type regiment when it comes to being obsessed with conditioning and being in the best shape possible. Um, I'm not worried about.
- [67:05]
Rob Mahoney
He can also be obsessed with revenge, we should say, a very powerful motivator historically.
- [67:10]
Big Waz
And that's another thing too. Like, like I know Luka has always called LeBron his idol. Um, he's one of the few NBA players who aren't Kobe, like, obsessed. And he's always been a LeBron guy. Uh, I, I, I think there's always been a relationship there and, and a mutual admiration. I think LeBron absolutely adores the guy too, and the kind of player that he is. So maybe that will help in terms of, of, you know, finding a way to get Luka into a different kind of mindset that will take that we all that I think will take his game to a different stratosphere. If this guy ever took his body seriously and on the court like LeBron and Luka, like, these are two of the smartest guys in the NBA in terms of IQ. They will fit in a basketball sense. Like they're going to make it work basketball wise.
- [67:56]
Rob Mahoney
Two of the smartest guys in NBA history.
- [67:58]
Big Waz
Yes. I just think for right now, the roster is just not very well balanced. When you think about Austin Reaves being a ball dominant guy, not very defensive minded, you know, Luka being the same. LeBron even to an extent being the same, you know, they got to balance out the roster in terms of big men and, and, and supporting guards and de emphasizing guys that need to handle because of Luka and Bron. But I mean the Lakers, like this thing is, is coming up aces. Like, come on now.
- [68:26]
Justin Barrier
They took Luka and figured it out later, which should probably be telling something to the Mavs. Like they're basically going to reorient orient their entire team on the fly here because they were just like, we'll take him, hang up and let's fucking go. But you're right, there's a lot of work to do because even Austin Reeves, like, do you really need another ball handler? Especially if you're going to keep LeBron in the mix there. This is just, I assume kind of probably a bridge year to get to a future where Luka is playing with the exact right players that he is. And like I took some shit like for saying that the Mavs are going to be better this season than the Lakers. I think that's the most likely scenario, if only because the Lakers just have a lot to figure out. Maybe there's motivation on the Lucas side. Maybe, you know, LeBron asked for a trade. That's something that we should consider. But there's just like it's a world of possibility. But they're at ground floor right now trying to figure that out. I think the question, and that's another thing. If you're going to be pissed about this, if you're another team, it's not just the fact that you gave the Lakers Luka, it's that you also armed them with the sort of capital and resources to go out and shape the roster in the exact type of way that he needs. Like Reeves. Plus your future swaps in that 23rd, that 2031, I believe first round pick like that can get you a good player on a decent market. So there's a world of possibility here. I do want to talk about LeBron and his future specifically Though we're already starting to see dribbles out where it's like, oh, maybe the warriors, their big plan is to reform the Team USA trio. Where it's Steve, excuse me, it's, it's Stephen Curry, it's LeBron, it's Kevin Durant. What do you guys think about LeBron? Do you see him staying there long term with Luca, or do you think this is eventually going to lead to him doing something like that with the Warriors?
- [70:11]
Rob Mahoney
That's kind of what I mean as far as the transition point, because with LeBron at this point, I could see it going either way. I find that the possibility of him coming to Golden State to be quite credible to be. It makes a lot of sense for him. Makes a lot of sense for where that franchise is. I don't know about the big like also Kevin Durant element of that reunion, but LeBron and Steph have been kind of circling this and teasing this for long enough that at this point I would almost be more surprised if it doesn't happen in some way at some point. I just don't know if he's going to be in a rush to get out the door. I know LeBron only has so many really high level seasons left, which is always a dangerous thing to say with LeBron, but we've seen him slip a little bit this year in terms of his. The every night impact and effort. Effort. Effort is maybe too strong. The every night like impact and ability to shape the game isn't just. Isn't there in a way that it was even a couple years ago. And I think he would be the first to acknowledge that he is picking his spots in a way that he never has before. Playing with Steph, you can kind of do that. Playing with Luca, you can definitely do that. And you can, you can be a supplementary creator. You can take possessions where you are just spacing and letting him do his thing and being the guy on the second side who's then all of a sudden making things happen when Luka kicks the ball your way, all of those possibilities are there for him. And so for as much as I understand the Golden State impulse and maybe ultimately that's something that's more appealing to him and he wants to be, you know, with his, his peers a little bit more in terms of age rather than be the sort of mentor for Luka Doncic, not to the extent that Luke even really needs that much of a mentor as players go in terms of his on court play, I just wouldn't be shocked if LeBron decides to stick around and wants to see this thing through to whatever extent he can be a part of that.
- [71:56]
Big Waz
Yeah. You know, he already put out the statement that he's not waiving his no trade clause to leave this year.
- [72:03]
Rob Mahoney
Right.
- [72:04]
Big Waz
I. I wouldn't be surprised if over the summer, you know, as he took stock of everything and maybe decided he wanted to go do something like play with Steph maybe. But I also could see LeBron, like, he's just proven that he likes being in LA. Um, if anything, that's what we've seen. Like, he has not exercised any real leverage ever over the Lakers. Like, he's basically prioritized getting paid, being in la. And he has one more year left on his deal maybe after, like, some people think that next year is actually the retirement year. And so maybe it is just like my last year hanging out with Luka, watching him take over the team and doing that, because, like, it just hasn't seemed like getting himself into the most optimal winning situation has been at the forefront of LeBron's mind since he got to the Lakers. It feels like that, you know what I mean? And so that's why I'm like, I could see him just playing out the string, retiring as a Laker, just moving on. He's got one more year left on the deal. Or, you know, I could also see him like after next year doing the actual retirement tour, doing the whole like, my son wants to get drafted, Bryce James thing again. Like, I can see him running that playbook one more time too. But in terms of being in a rush to get out of la, I just don't see that. I don't see why he would be anyway.
- [73:25]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. So I imagine that the Lakers will probably stay intact at least with the LeBron and Luka part of this. Probably out there in the market looking for a center. I think Robert Williams makes a lot of sense for that team if you're willing to play through some of his injury concerns. He has been largely healthy this season. They actually have been putting him on ice of late, which is. Is a little curious, but like, he's the exact type of smart player, but also bouncy athlete who could protect the rim and also be a lob threat for Luka. I think, like, he's tailor made for Luca, unfortunately. I just don't know what someone like that would cost anymore because I feel like this trade also just completely upended the trade market. Like, if you're getting Luca for AD in a first, like, what is Robert Williams worth? Like a low Second, at that point.
- [74:11]
Rob Mahoney
Like a second, there's the trade market that Nico Harrison is living in, and then there's the trade market that everyone else is living in. So I think the Robert Williams thing is fascinating because the Lakers, they were kind of already in the mix for a player like Robert Williams to begin with. They've been connected with bigs all year long. But that race is heating up as teams like the Knicks have similar needs. You know, other contenders are going to be talking themselves into Robert Williams types. And now, as I mentioned earlier, like, the. Maybe the urgency for the Lakers has turned up a little bit. Maybe they have all the more reason, you know, they can approach the back half of the season as playing with house money, and I think they frankly should. But if they can do a little move to make themselves a little bit more functional in the meantime, why not do that?
- [74:52]
Justin Barrier
But where will Cam Johnson go? That's what I thought this podcast was going to be a week.
- [74:57]
Rob Mahoney
It might still be. Jimmy Butler is going to get traded on Wednesday and I'm like, barely going to look up from my phone. That's. That's the level of kind of, I.
- [75:05]
Big Waz
Don'T know, seems like it has to happen.
- [75:07]
Justin Barrier
Bradley Beal or just like, let that guy hang out in his mansion, like, down the street. Like, I might choose the mansion. You know, like the terse little jabs he's doing on social media these days. Like, I'll just turn my phone off and just like plug into Kevin Love's like, meme Tumblr thing that he's doing right now. I don't know. I wouldn't trade him if it was just the Suns. And it seems like that's what he's trying, Trying to do.
- [75:30]
Rob Mahoney
I, at this point, I'm ruling nothing out. I have no context by which to understand what is happening in the NBA anymore, which is very useful when your job is podcasting about the NBA. But I think we're all going to get through it together. I think we're going to try to make sense.
- [75:45]
Big Waz
We were just like, nothing's actually going to happen for real. Like, Jimmy probably gets moves. Oh, Fox is angling. Okay. Fox will probably get moved. These would be some big, nice deals. And then there'll be some ancillary, some. Some, you know, some cap clearing stuff like guys getting underneath the apron, getting underneath the tech luxury tax threshold. We thought it was going to be all that kind of bookkeeping and accounting dorkery instead. The biggest trade ever, ever, ever in the history of the NBA. This is crazy.
- [76:15]
Rob Mahoney
Well, it turns out it was bookkeeping. You know, a team was just so scared of playing, paying a supermax player supermax money that they had no choice but to take a low ball offer without consulting anyone else about it. So congratulations to the Mavericks for getting exactly apparently what they wanted.
- [76:30]
Justin Barrier
I'll say this, if that is the byproduct of the 90 different aprons we're now working under, is that we're going to see these like kind of nutso trades where teams are just throwing all NBA regular players to another team just to get out of paying them. Like, I don't hate it. Like, this is a fascinating trade. Like, we haven't seen anything like that there. And like, I'm so sick of just like, like going through the pick protections and all that other stuff. So for that reason, I like it, I like being here.
- [76:56]
Rob Mahoney
You're not that sick of it. You just created a whole ass taxonomy for grading draft picks. So like you're, you're here in the pit with us.
- [77:03]
Justin Barrier
I, I, yeah, I rise to the occasion. What can I say? I just love, I love talking with my friends about the trade deadline. I love being in this friend zone. You know, this is one that I can appreciate.
- [77:14]
Big Waz
God bless. Salute.
- [77:17]
Justin Barrier
There you go. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back later this week. We'll talk to you. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or 800-327-5050. For 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.