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- [00:01]
David Shoemaker
Hey there Humanoids. It's the Masked Man. David Shoemaker It's a new era in.
- [00:05]
Kaz
Professional wrestling and that means a new.
- [00:07]
David Shoemaker
Era here at the Ringer Wrestling Show.
- [00:09]
Kaz
Kaz here every Monday and Thursday.
- [00:11]
David Shoemaker
Hang out with me and my guy.
- [00:12]
Kaz
Shoes on the Masked man show and Ben Cruz here. Come kick it with me, Cal and Brian on Tuesdays for Ringer Wrestling Worldwide where we hit on the most interesting headlines and even react to some of Masked Man's and even your hottest takes.
- [00:26]
David Shoemaker
Don't tap out. Tap in to the Ringer Wrestling show.
- [00:29]
Kaz
Feed now on Spotify or wherever you.
- [00:31]
David Shoemaker
Get your podcasts worldwide.
- [00:40]
Kaz
This episode is brought to you by patron 100% additive free tequila when it comes to ingredients, Patron doesn't need to play games. That's why their tequila is crafted with 100% Weber Blue Agave water and thyme. No sweeteners, no added extracts, no secrets, just 100% additive free tequila. Visit patron tequila.com to learn more. The perfect way to enjoy Patron is responsibly Copyright 2025, imported by the Petrone Spirits Company, Coral Gables, Florida. Tequila 40% alcohol by volume.
- [01:13]
Justin Varrier
This episode is supported by State Farm. Man, I remember when I first got into a car accident, it was pure frustration because I did not have State Farm. And now that I do have State Farm, it is an exclamation of pure joy. But the only words that you need to remember are like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. State Farm has options to fit your unique insurance needs, meaning you can talk to your agent to choose the coverage you need, have coverage options to protect the things you value most, file a claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and even reach a real person when you need to talk to someone. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Learn more@state farm.com.
- [02:03]
Kaz
Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varior and joining me, Rob Mahoney. Big Waz. Gentlemen, we have officially hit the stretch run in the 202425 season. 49 days left on the NBA season. About seven weeks left. Rob, how are you feeling? How are your legs? How is your wind?
- [02:24]
David Shoemaker
My wind is consistently awful, but I think stretch run might be generous. Justin, you know we got some teams that are really fighting for something I think this weekend and and the slate was indicative of where we are, which is just some absolute wallopings, some separation of the. Is it the wheat from the chaff? Is that the expression? I don't know which one. I don't know which one is the wheat and which one is the Chaff. Whichever one is the better side of things. We're starting to see, you know, some teams, like the Celtics, for example, even further distinguish themselves from the field. We're starting to see some of the, the actual contenders and actual challengers in the west finally making a name for themselves, finally making a play in the standings. It's an exciting time, but there's also, I think, going to be a lot of crummy march basketball ahead of us. So I cannot say I'm looking forward to that.
- [03:09]
Kaz
Well, how are you doing? You're, you're on the East Coast. What's the, what's the buzz there? Are people talking about the Miami Heat potentially getting out of the play in.
- [03:18]
Rob Mahoney
No, just. Although I'm in Georgia, I'm still surrounded by Knicks fans. There is panic starting to creep in about the piss poor New York Knicks defense. I think people are starting to see the writing on the wall about the problems of this team.
- [03:35]
Kaz
Well, we're going to hit that today because we are going to go through, I think, five questions we have about the new world order that we have been given gratefully by the gods at the trade deadline. Unlike previous seasons, it just feels like the NBA just shook the snow globe and there's just so much to dig in here. Even though there are only, as we mentioned, probably less than two months left on the calendar. I think we got to start in Los Angeles where Luka Doncic looks pretty good. I knew that he was back when early in the game he started barking at a referee. I was like, oh, we might be on to something there. And then he went off the rest of the game. I was like the fan after Luca hit the three, looked at him and just gave him the thumbs up. That was basically me that entire game. Rob, what did you see in that game against the Denver Nuggets this weekend?
- [04:25]
David Shoemaker
The Luca stuff is great. That, that's wonderful. I think that's kind of business as usual and more or less what we expect from Luka Doncic, especially as he rounds back into form. I find myself even more impressed with the Lakers defense, which I've been in kind of wait and see mode as they've been quietly one of the better defensive teams for the last couple months. But I, I was kind of, I, I wanted to see them prove it in games that mattered. I wanted to see, especially post ad, how they would look and what their kind of regular form would be. And this was a, a pretty reassuring statement from the Lakers that when they put their minds to it, when they have the dedicated game plan when they give a shit at at the highest possible levels, and they've been doing that for the last couple months, they can knock out a team that we're taking pretty seriously in the Denver Nuggets. I come away very impressed with what the Lakers have been able to accomplish.
- [05:13]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, so I watched the Charlotte game the other night where they were up, like, kind of controlling that game, like, 13 points up. And then they kind of just fell asleep at the wheel and found themselves in a street fight and kind of couldn't be woken up in time to save the results. And I think the main problem of that game, if you watched it was just like, Luca, you know, trying to be deferential, which often happens when, like, these superstars come together. Nobody wants to be the person sort of taking the reins and be like, oh, I'm taking. This is going to be my operation. Like, people are just, like, kind of overpassing being overly deferential. And there was a lot of that in the Charlotte game. And I think what was maybe nervous about the Charlotte game was that it felt like Luka was in quicksand. Like, he could not get by a single person. And he took so many jumps, like, he didn't take any shots in the paint. And Luka's a guy that gets to the basket. Like, if you guard him one on one, a lot of times, he's just gonna put you on his back and get to the rack. He did none of that against Charlotte. And I'm like, maybe the Cav is still an issue. And then in Denver, like, the adjustment was just basically like, let Luca control your offense. He's a walking top five offense. He's been so for five freaking years. And surprise, surprise, the Lakers look much better for it. And, yeah, I think there is something to the defense and the. The extra spring and the step of one. LeBron James, it seems like this guy is basically. Since the Luca trade, even before Luca, like, got onto the court, since they've traded for Luca. Go look at LeBron's numbers.
- [06:45]
David Shoemaker
The.
- [06:45]
Rob Mahoney
This guy has been playing differently, and he's playing, I think, all of the time are combined. Yes, exactly. He's not missing any games either.
- [06:53]
David Shoemaker
Yeah.
- [06:54]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. I thought that was kind of our game.
- [06:57]
Kaz
That's right. I thought it was kind of a bit or some sort of personal challenge he was giving to himself in the midst of the season that probably was going to end up in a finals bid. But LeBron is engaged and looks revitalized in a way that, like, he wasn't Even in the previous two seasons, the Lakers up until about a month ago were an offense only team. And it was basically Anthony Davis having to swat away whatever incoming drivers like he was Godzilla with all the planes all around him. But because there was just everything kind of just zooming around him, there was no one else to stop anybody. But they just didn't have the extra juice, the extra kick in order to knock out teams with that offense. Now the Lakers seem like we'll talk about the defense, we, we should. But it seems like they have an identity. Their identity is amplified because now they have Luka Doncic in the mix there. So when they want to just like ramp up the offense, they have that extra kick to the point where they're playing now one of the best creators in NBA basketball, pretty much an entire game. Because when LeBron, since then it's Luke and the guys and when LeBron is out there, he's orchestrating guys. So like the, the rest of the team where I might otherwise have issues with some of the spots that they have. Rui, for instance, a guy that we've kind of dinged in the past year, doesn't look as bad when LeBron is the one giving him the opportunities to make the best of his talents.
- [08:18]
David Shoemaker
Yeah, I mean, to have that kind of collective playmaking, to have the Luka LeBron dynamic not just in terms of problem solving, but LeBron as a finisher for Luka Doncic has turned out to be a pretty combination. Guess what? But also like low key. The Dorian Finney Smith trade is starting to pay off in a huge way. Right. Like, like trading some of the guards for some rangier forwards, getting Jared Vander built back. Like all of these elements kind of snapping into place while incorporating Luka Doncic is I think why the Lakers are starting to look dramatically different. Clearly there's still some things to shake out and to work out in the process. Like you don't just drop games against the Utah Jazz and not worry about it in some way. So as an every night performer, I'm not quite sure where they are right this second and I'm not sure they need to be a finished product right now. But as far as what their ceiling could be, we're starting to see some pretty good evidence that this is a really competitive team in the West. Particularly as you look around the conference and think, oh, that's a good team, but has some flaws, that's another good team, but has this kind of issue that they're dealing with, that's another good team. But they have these injuries. There is kind of a why not the Lakers thing happening. As far as a challenger to okc, I'm not saying they're going to beat the Thunder, but I think they, they could end up making a little run here.
- [09:30]
Rob Mahoney
Sorry, just one last thing about, about the Lakers and what they're sort of showing this, this at this point in the season. I was, you know, one of the foremost Darvin Ham defenders in the media. I thought he got a bit of an unfair shake and then, you know, early results in terms of the season, especially in December, where the Lakers defense completely cratered and I was like, guys like, this is what Darvin Ham was kind of like dealing with the entire season. I gotta say, the fact that JJ Redick has been able to turn this around, like the team just is responding to him in a way that they just didn't to Darvin Ham, and I think he deserves some credit for that much. To Justin various sugar.
- [10:12]
David Shoemaker
Yeah, can we get, can we get a JV check in on the JJ Redick experience? Where are you right now?
- [10:17]
Kaz
I think, as you guys will recall, I mean, you could look up the viral videos that were going around from earlier this season. I specifically wasn't necessarily critiquing JJ as a coach, but perhaps as a person, if any, anything. That sort of impulse that I don't like about him as a media member is actually what's made him a pretty good coach, which is that he's just like meticulously detailed to the point where he was up here in Portland in the pregame press conference. And you could see the other beat writers practically having to add caveat on top of caveat on top of sample size because they're just so worried because JJ's gonna come over the top and be like, well, what about this? And like the sample size of this? And like, you didn't use your banshees correctly on the, on the ghost screen and all this other stuff. It's. It's a real master class up there.
- [10:59]
David Shoemaker
Not the banshees. You got to use the banshees correctly.
- [11:02]
Kaz
You got to use those banshees. But I think that that what you're identifying there was, is, is probably where I find myself on both sides of things. On the one hand, they are more detail oriented. And I do wonder if some of the guys that they brought in over the past two years, I would say fit that mold. A guy like Rui, a guy like Dorian, Finney, Smith, they're just like able to be deployed and coachable and Versatile enough that they they fit fit the vision of what a JG Reddick team probably wants to be. The one thing I do wonder though is that it seems like they were particularly zeroed in on this game and probably the next game against Dallas. And it seems like they had almost punted some of the earlier games. Maybe they won the game in Portland, but that was a struggle. The Charlotte game looked like a mess. In order to make this game where they proved their point, the defense against Jokic might have been some of the best defense we've seen against Jokic. Whether or not the Nuggets were like fully engaged in that game, I don't know. But it seems like what they are tailored for is a playoff setting. And I do wonder in the regular season it's going to be more mixed. If anything, I think they might be a better playoff team than a regular season team.
- [12:03]
David Shoemaker
They might be, but they're still fourth place in the west as of our recording. So it's not like they're in a.
- [12:07]
Rob Mahoney
Bad spot we would not have predicted before the season started.
- [12:10]
David Shoemaker
Absolutely not.
- [12:13]
Kaz
I did say that they were in the mix. If we're going to keep looping back into my takes, you are right, you.
- [12:20]
David Shoemaker
Did say they were in the mix and they are firmly in the mix. And to you know, if that was their approach zeroing in on Denver in particular and I mean the Dallas game is going to have a life of its own, but the Denver game is important because I think this Lakers team, as they're trying to figure out how to navigate this season, need to understand where their advantages are and what are the matchups that are actually going to work for them. And this Denver one, despite the recent history of that series between the Lakers and the Nuggets, is actually looking like something that they might be able to at least make competitive if not entirely pull off. And if you were to kind of power rank what a second round series might look like for the Lakers, I think in order of preference, Memphis is probably the best potential second round opponent if the Lakers can get to the second round on the board. The Nuggets I think might be second if you're looking at kind of a top four chalky result and then I think the Thunder are actually a pretty, pretty tough matchup for them as currently constructed. We have this idea of the Lakers as oh, that's a team that can flex their guile and can out muscle the Thunder. But this is not the big imposing Lakers team that it used to be. It is a small unit. They don't really have a center. They, they don't want to play Jackson Hayes that much frankly. And if you're a small ball team, I would not want to play okc. That's kind of a nightmare scenario. So adding Luca, granted, who's kind of the boogeyman in Oklahoma City, that helps and helps shift the nature of that matchup. But overall, if they could get into an advantageous first round matchup and then find themselves against Denver or Memphis in the second round, you can now see a way through for the Lakers, which is just not something I ever imagined us saying a month ago.
- [13:54]
Kaz
So what's the ceiling? Is the question I have down here was it sounds like Rob is topping out at probably Western Conference finals. I tend to agree with him, especially the way that the matchups are kind of planning out there. Maybe they get to two or three, but most likely they'll end up somewhere where they are right now. They're currently four. So you, you're looking at a Houston Rockets first round series and then probably the Thunder right after that. Where would you slot them? Do you think that they can make it to the finals?
- [14:22]
Rob Mahoney
I think the west is so jumbled up under okc. Like if you beat okc, why do you think you can't beat any other team in the West? I guess it is matchup specific. Right. And so I think their ceiling is the Finals because I don't think OKC is some unbeatable outfit. Like I've been saying that all year. I'm not saying that I would necessarily pick the Lakers, particularly in a head to head series. But like, let's just say they avoided OKC because they were upset somewhere else in the bracket. I don't see why they would go up against Denver or Memphis. Like you guys mentioned, she was like all of these other teams and think, oh, we can't do it or somehow if Golden State went, Wink was able to get a, a little run going in the playoffs. Right. Like, I don't see why they should look at any of those teams as impossible to beat.
- [15:12]
Kaz
Yeah, the one thing that I'm tracking over the next couple weeks here for the Lakers before they even get to the playoffs, I do wonder how the crunch time just orchestration is really going to sort itself out there. I don't think LeBron and Luke are going to have any problems. They haven't had any problems pretty much from the jump. You already have LeBron doing the oh, I'm the wide receiver for the quarterback sort of quote. So it's all a Cutesy love affair going on here. I have noticed that when LeBron wants to take over late, including in that game in Portland, he does want a jack from three in the same way that Luca just by nature does. Like, you're the best advantage is Luca stepping back and hitting those moon ball threes that nobody can guard. I. It kind of puts LeBron in a situation where he almost has to be more, I wouldn't say a role player, but does have to do more physical dirty work. Like he has to set the screens, he has to be the one moving off the ball. Stuff that he can do.
- [16:00]
Rob Mahoney
But.
- [16:00]
Kaz
But I'm almost wondering at 40, is it easier actually to do that stuff, which is more physically taxing because like, and that's what he's put so many millions of dollars into his body for, rather than like gearing, like trying to be the one just driving the ball, the one like setting everything up. Because we saw in the playoffs against Denver last year, he only had like so much of that like power bar in him. And then as soon as it dropped, it was over. And so I almost wonder like, yes, there's stuff to figure out, but I almost like this version of LeBron. I almost wonder if this like actually extends, like he could extend his career beyond what even he might think he can do at this point for sure.
- [16:40]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, just think about all the times we've watched Luke in the playoffs or even some regular season games where he's destroying the team one on one matchups and they start trapping this guy basically a little bit above half court. Now imagine it's LeBron setting those screens and these teams are putting two on the ball and LeBron is getting the ball going downhill with the four on three advantage. I know, come on. Like, they're like, I, I think the crunch time stuff is going to be fine.
- [17:11]
David Shoemaker
I mean, that's the way to think about it is you have a Luka Doncic offense, ultimately is, I think, what the Lakers will end up being. And LeBron is the most overqualified version of Draymond Green we've ever seen. A 43 point shooter, an incredible driver, still great at getting to the line like he is. He is the best version of so many of the archetypes of players that Luca has already played with. He's just not save maybe like a seven foot lob finisher, but he can, you know, fight, fight for those lobs too and get pretty vertical as a threat in those situations as well. So Luca knows how to play with someone like LeBron. Even though he's barely played with LeBron. If anything, it's just going to open up new possibilities for both of them and some of that's going to come down to their willingness to play slightly different kinds of roles, try slightly different kinds of things, just kind of flesh out what already comes naturally to both of them.
- [18:02]
Kaz
Are you ready for the Rui Renaissance, Rob? You look pretty good, like guarding or at least like throwing his body in front of Jokic.
- [18:10]
David Shoemaker
Does he need a renaissance? He's been fine.
- [18:13]
Kaz
He's been pretty good, I would say.
- [18:16]
David Shoemaker
What is he Renaissance from?
- [18:18]
Kaz
Well, according to you, it was like being just an absolute dog player.
- [18:23]
David Shoemaker
That was as a Washington wizard, which as we know takes its toll on anybody. But I, I, I didn't think he was a dog player. But I do think you struck on something important, which is there are certain kinds of players who do need a level of JJ Redick style direct instruction and can really benefit it from, who do need a level of like LeBron James or Luka Doncic on court traffic control. And Rui is one of these guys like you take some of that lift off of him and help him get into his spots and help him understand his role even better and streamline things in a way that can make him really effective. And all of a sudden he turns into a big imposing forward who can do lots of different things for you. It's just a matter of putting guys in the best possible positions. And there's no question that over his time as a Laker overall, the franchise has done a very good job of that and I would say even more so potentially now that there's another great playmaker involved.
- [19:12]
Rob Mahoney
Listen, I'm, I'm old enough to have lived through the Rui in the second half against Jokic. Adjustment. Alleged adjustment.
- [19:20]
David Shoemaker
Yeah.
- [19:21]
Rob Mahoney
Chatter. I'm kind of done thinking of Rui as a defensive guy. I've like, I've had all these hopes for years that somebody with his physical profile could become a more imposing kind of defender if he's average on that end, the Lakers got plenty, right?
- [19:38]
Kaz
Yeah, I do think the defense will ultimately be the concern there because you saw even in that Hornets game like you could attack Luca pretty easily if there aren't other guys you can throw into the mix. It's either going to be Luca and Reeves and basically every pick and roll and every crunch time playoff series from here on out. And so like a guy like Rui, a guy like Dorian, Finney Smith like has to be your lockdown defender. I just don't know if those guys are ever going to get to that point.
- [20:02]
David Shoemaker
Maybe not. But yeah, was mentioned the quicksand that Luca was in in some of his early games. I don't know what's thicker than quicksand, but defensively against Charlotte, he was stuck in it. Like he just could not move in some of those pick and rolls. And you know, Austin Reeves has to feel pretty relieved in that way. Justin, I would think he's probably going to get targeted a little bit less, even though he still will be a target. You know, there's a pressure lifted off his shoulders in more ways than one.
- [20:24]
Kaz
I do appreciate how they've managed to work Austin Reeves into every photo of LeBron and Luca where it's like it's our new big three. Just one last thing that I have noted as I've been watching the Luca Lakers. Sorry for the belated All Star take. I know everyone is full of those things, but I almost wonder if the reason why All Star no longer works is that we literally get All Star pairings that we never thought we would in regular season basketball. Like I remember a couple years ago being like, oh, LeBron playing off of Luka. This is so incredible. Like, I finally get to see Allen Iverson passing to Michael Jordan. Whatever cockamamie fantasy situation we can cook up, it's now reality. We see these guys play together not only just like once, but like oftentimes multiple times where like James Harden has basically played with every teammate he's had for thunder like two to three times at this point.
- [21:17]
David Shoemaker
But Justin, this is a 2019 ass take. You know, the super team era is, is basically done, right? Didn't, didn't we already leave it?
- [21:24]
Kaz
I didn't. I didn't think we would get this.
- [21:26]
Rob Mahoney
This.
- [21:27]
Kaz
I know certainly this is wild.
- [21:30]
Rob Mahoney
Unless honestly, we're still calling Phoenix a super team. The error's done.
- [21:34]
David Shoemaker
Well, the results speak for themselves. You know, they're. They're really doing it every night.
- [21:39]
Kaz
Honestly, I'm getting a lot of magic and Kareem vibes from the pairing and it's, it's wild because it's almost like magic and old magic.
- [21:49]
Rob Mahoney
It's.
- [21:50]
Kaz
It's just remarkable that this exists and we get to watch this all the time. So we'll be tracking that going forward. Number two on the docket, the Golden State Warriors. Can Jimmy Butler's face melting dark arts work in the Western Conference? And was I see the floor to you because you dropped a bit of a, a spicy little meatball in our group chat the other Day.
- [22:09]
Rob Mahoney
I think the Dubs can go to the finals. I. I truly do. And it's just literally the singular greatness of their three best players, man, like Draymond and now Jimmy. Also quarterbacking the defense and telling guys where to go and dissecting off that way. I, I've. Look, Golden State hasn't played the best competition. I get that. But just watch what they're doing. I kind of thought that Jimmy would fit in perfectly because he worked in a similar offense. It's just that Miami was creating this perimeter havoc with Duncan Robinson and Tyler Herro. Now it's Steph Curry creating panic for defenses at the three point line, while Jimmy Butler just has a damn parade to the free throw line every single night. I think they're scary. I think teams out west should be worried about this team. And, you know, they're fairly deep. Like, it's not a super thin team. They, they have like, quality. Like, look, these guys aren't world beaters. We know that. But they have quality role players around.
- [23:16]
David Shoemaker
Oh, yeah.
- [23:16]
Rob Mahoney
What? Jimmy and Steph and Draymond are providing for the team. And yeah, they've just never had something like Jimmy Butler. Like, this guy lives at the free throw line. He is a threat at the basket at all times. And if teams are deploying resources to try to stop that, then that means Steph is even more freer to roam on the perimeter. They're becoming a pick your poison kind of thing. And I think more importantly, everybody's noticed it. There's just the extra pep in his step. Draymond is more inclined to bully guys now. Like, it's just like, they just feel different now that Jimmy has injected himself into this team.
- [23:54]
David Shoemaker
Well, if you think about just the psychology, if you've been on the warriors all season or even last season, you're going into these games, if you're Steph, knowing you have to save some. Some gas in the tank, because every possession that's about to explode is going to come back to you and you're going to have to figure out what to do with it. You're going to be the only thing keeping this team afloat offensively. And there's going to be a stretch of the game where because of you or Draymond or any. Anyone else involved on the roster, there's just going to be like four straight turnovers and it's going to feel like a disaster and the ground is going to come out from underneath you. That's just Golden State warriors basketball. The difference is now Steph doesn't have to save himself in that way. The low. The lows don't feel so low. The. The deficits don't feel insurmountable. Like, there's no situation where I would look at with Golden State in the middle of a game and say they can't dig their way out of this. And that is a dramatic shift from where this team has ultimately been. And I think you nailed it. Was. I think the biggest thing is just the dynamic of a Jimmy Butler who is a classic spoiler, one of the great spoilers in modern NBA history in terms of his ability to punch up and beat supposedly superior opponents and oust them from playoff series. Now, working alongside a teammate who just takes all of the attention and all of the oxygen, like Steph is such a neon sign that forces people to pay attention to him. And now Jimmy Butler just gets to coast into 20 points in the. In frankly, the easiest 20 he's probably ever had. Super efficient, despite the fact that he can't shoot anything from three yet. He's just going to be such a valuable, like, multifaceted tool for them in a way that, yeah, clearly they've never had, but also definitely makes them more formidable.
- [25:31]
Kaz
Listen, stars like to play with stars. You guys know that better than anybody. Just like, it adds it up, lifts all boats, whatever. Whatever idioms want to throw out there. But more than that, I think the warriors have lacked a pragmatic problem solver practically since Kevin Durant left. You even saw them flirting with adding a vertical spacing big like James Wiseman. But it's also like, you heard them, like, in the mix for other guys, too, just because they liked the idea of when things get tough, they could just throw it down to the big old guys and he can get a bucket for him.
- [26:04]
David Shoemaker
Jimmy, they flirted with, like, Brandon Ingram. Like, could Brandon Ingram be the pragmatic option? No, he cannot. But guess what? Jimmy Butler can.
- [26:13]
Kaz
He's averaging 9.2 free throws in the six games that he's played for the Warriors. That is would be second behind just Giannis in the NBA over the course of a full season. He is the duct tape for whenever this team needs. But it's not just that Steph can't go get you a bucket. It's just that when you need a solution, just working his way to the free throw line is such an easy way to stop all of the bleeding, to slow things down, to reset and just, like, come up with a solution. It's awesome to watch what he's been able to give to them thus far.
- [26:44]
David Shoemaker
He's just super resourceful and I think the free throws are so important and it's something that Golden State just has not had. And it's why, despite the fact that his jumper isn't really cashing yet from distance, he's basically one of the leaders in true shooting for Golden State right now. Despite that, because he gets to the line so often and so he's finishing inside, he's drawing fouls. He's such an important connector for them already. His, his chemistry with Draymond is already really good. His chemistry with Moses Moody is already really good. I just like the way he interlocks with basically every component of the roster. And what he's ultimately going to do for the rotation is just, it's worth its weight in gold. It's. This is why you make this kind of deal, to make the life of every single person, most importantly Steph Curry, significantly easier.
- [27:26]
Kaz
But what do you think about Woz's take, Rob, about warriors challenging for the Finals? Because right now they are in ninth. They are, let's see, they're only one and a half games up or excuse me, back from the Clippers in six. So they could get into that top six mix. But I think getting into like the top four would be a lot. They basically have to play like six should be there basketball the entire. Yeah, right.
- [27:50]
David Shoemaker
Six would be. Six would be great. And I think especially staying out of the play in mix and staying out of that seven, eight vortex is, is very important for them. Ultimately, I feel like I might be higher on where the Thunder are right now than you guys. And to me, I just don't see this Golden State team beating the Thunder for every. A lot of the reasons I just laid out with the Lakers. Like if you play small and this starting lineup for Golden State is real small. Right. Like they're now basically playing Draymond at the five full time. Steve Kerr has more or less committed to it. We'll see. Maybe there'll be like a random Quentin Post start in there somewhere along the line, but this is kind of who they are and how they want to play. And that style against all of those, like swatting hands with the Thunder and everyone feasting on every passing lane. I'm just imagining the wild Draymond Green passes in the second quarter and the kind of flurry that can result from that. And so that's the kind of matchup I'm worried about if I'm Golden State. Any other matchup on the board kind of feels doable Like I think they could push Memphis. I think they could be another team like the Lakers that packs the paint and surrounds Jokic and makes things really hard on him. Like the level of defensive activity that Golden State is capable of puts them into the mix against a lot of these teams that technically have more firepower than them.
- [29:01]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, for me the, the, the anti Thunder thing is just, just the team exactly like Golden State. A veteran laden team just straight up out executing them. Sure in big postseason possessions, just never making a mistake on any of the biggest possessions and just locking in.
- [29:18]
David Shoemaker
But Golden State does, they love to make a mistake on the biggest position they have.
- [29:22]
Rob Mahoney
A lot of them. They do where Steph just throws like a into the post entry and then the guy comes from like way across half court and steals it because the ball was in the air for so long. Like they do have that in them. But like I said, you know, I watched Steph and freaking Gary Brayton Jr. And Andrew Wiggins, you know, figure out how to win a championship three years ago. You know, you add Jimmy Butler to this thing, I, I just feel like maybe they just got another just out executing every single team run within them.
- [29:54]
David Shoemaker
They're clearly a Justin barrier honorary in the mix team.
- [29:57]
Kaz
There is, there's no doubt about T.M. baby. Yeah, they have Kaminga presumably coming back within the next couple of weeks. I don't know if it's a good or bad thing. I do think the athletic punch will be interesting next to Jimmy. I think he can get him evolved the ways he probably hadn't been before. Unfortunately, I think it probably cramps the spacing if we're thinking that he's going to be a long term closing five man next to Draymond and Jimmy. Because that's one thing that really hasn't come to bear yet is like Jimmy spacing is going to screw things up. He can solve problems, but he's also, when it comes to the three point math, it is going to provide some sort of a crunch there. So we'll see. He has that effect on young guys though. So maybe Kaminga plays above his head in the same way that that Pods and even Moody has been playing a little bit better. But I honestly agree with you, Rob. I think the Thunder far and away the best team in the Western Conference and if anything they might be a little underrated at this point. I, I'm starting to think to myself that the Thunder might be on a Celtics narrative from last season where it's like every statistical nar indicator is basically telling you this team could be like historically good and. But we're just like getting a little too caught up in the way things look. The fact that they're a little too young, maybe they're not as physical as they need to be. And I'm just like, I don't know. It seems like every. They have everything you would want against any team in any matchup. So.
- [31:15]
Rob Mahoney
So to me, to me, they remind me of the first warriors championship run, the 2015 warriors that ended up winning the championship. But like was extremely vulnerable. Like they could have lost to Memphis.
- [31:28]
David Shoemaker
They're all vulnerable.
- [31:31]
Rob Mahoney
You know, like, exactly what do you want to the beat down Cavs. The Cavs had no Kyrie, no Kevin Love. They look, they went down 2, 1. I think it was to those Cavs, like they ended up ultimately winning it, but they were a very vulnerable squad. Right. Because of their use, because of their inexperience. And I think that's. It wasn't because they didn't have the talent. And so that's what I think is going on with OKC here.
- [31:55]
Kaz
Yeah, OKC is not the type of team that's going to shoot, win a shootout, especially against some of these teams. But a lot of these teams in the west are a little bit more methodical in how they go about, about their offense anyway. There aren't like a real like juggernaut, knock you out of the park offense like the Knicks and the Celtics in the Eastern Conference. Here's a question.
- [32:12]
David Shoemaker
One of the things that I'm worried about with OKC and kind of thinking about now, friend of the podcast Modak Hill, kind of turned me on to this idea and got me churning about it of like, how schemable is the Thunder defense in a playoff series. Like, if you give a team time to really focus and think about and tailor their style to the way the Thunder play, how solvable is that? And I think from a size perspective you can see it. You can understand the angles. If you have some of these, they're definitely small. And I think there maybe is something too. Despite how active the Thunder are, if you know those swipes are coming and you have basically days and ultimately over the course of a series, like the better part of weeks to get used to that style of play. Can you acclimate it? Can you have better ball protection? And I think the answers to those things are going to differ wildly based on which Western Conference contender we're talking about. But I'm, I'm open to that idea that ultimately, what is a historic regular Season defense might turn out in the playoffs to be a very good defense, but one that is not unsolvable for some of these other teams that are vying for the West.
- [33:14]
Kaz
Here's one last question I have about the warriors was maybe you could take this. Do you wish they had made a follow up move after the Jimmy Butler trade? Because we talked about this around the deadline. In theory, they did have another move out there using some of the rest of their draft picks in order to make the most of this specific team. We talked about Vuch. I don't know if that would have been the, the right poll there, but someone of that caliber, you know, you, you trade away the Peyton contract, maybe the Looney contract and a pick and you have one more solid top eight rotation player, would you have liked that more?
- [33:49]
Rob Mahoney
I think for better or for worse, Golden State loves their guys. And I think Peyton Jr. Or the second is indicative of that. Like internally they absolutely love the guy. Same goes for Looney. And so first of all, these people had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the Jimmy Butler deal. Guys like, it's not as if that deal weren't there. Like they, they were trying to avoid this thing and we're just willing to watch this mediocre ass product just sail through and along. And so I'm not really that mad that they didn't make a supplementary move. You know, they'll, they'll go through the playoffs and I think this offseason they'll try to address any of the shortcomings. But I'm not surprised. I'm not mad either, especially having done this level of upgrade. Again, the guy in Jimmy Butler who two years ago took a un outmanned Miami Heat outfit and brought them to the NBA Finals. Dude, to replace Andrew Wiggins with that guy is. I'm happy about that. Like, the warriors are freaking interesting again.
- [35:02]
Kaz
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- [39:23]
Kaz
All right, let's flip to the Eastern Conference now. Seems like the top two pretty much set at this point, but unfortunately, the Knicks were a team that used to be in that mix. A team that seemed like if things just went right, if the starting lineup played just every single minute possible that they could be on the level of the Celtics and the Cavs. But unfortunately, over the past. What is it since February? So nine games, worst defense in the NBA was what? What's the read emanating from New York right now? Are people getting worried?
- [39:53]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I think people are finally, finally worried about the defense because it's not just been bet like 30th in the NBA. I'm sorry. Like that's just inexcusable, unacceptable, not going to get it done. And their offense is elite enough that they, you know, they haven't lost nine games in a row during that stretch or anything like that. They haven't fallen off a cliff. But it's that they've played some of the best teams, particularly in their conference. Got pasted by Cleveland and most of that was because the defense was piss poor. I was just watching First Take and Tim Legler said, I don't think I've ever seen an NBA game before where the first four baskets were dunks. That was the Knicks freaking defense against Cleveland the other night. And then last night or yesterday, excuse me, afternoon against the Celtics, it was more the same, just a pasting. And, you know, again, we understand, you start Jalen Brunson and Carl Anthony Towns, you're not gonna exactly be feeling like the bad boy Pistons here. Okay. You know, Bruce Bowen is not looking at this, this defense, and. And his eye is sort of like watering. No, like, this is. This is just a bad. This is. This was never going to be a very good defense, but I don't see any reason why they have to be this freaking horrible.
- [41:15]
David Shoemaker
Yeah, they just had no shot. It's becoming very clear that against offenses of a certain caliber, if you have high level pick and roll threats, if you have really sophisticated action, they just get lost and they get stretched out. And the number of possessions that are not just ending in dunks, but like, nobody even in the vicinity dunks and layups, just absolutely no chance to impact the play whatsoever to me is not just a glaring red flag, but it's a huge problem in terms of the way the team is constructed. Because you want Og Anunoby and Mikhail Bridges and Josh Hart and granted, some of those guys have been in and out of the lineup lately to complicate this, but their ability to cover ground and paper over things is why the team is set up the way that it is. Because this cannot be a full time switching defense. This has to be one that is making up for what Jalen Brunson gives up. That's making up for Kat's inability to defend the rim. Like, you have to do it collectively, and you have to do it collectively at a level that at least gets you to Waz's point. Like close to league average, close to decent, and they've had moments of that. And overall, on balance, they're not a disastrous defense this season. They just like to see them regress in this way against this caliber of opponent just makes you question their ability to compete in any kind of series of any actual magnitude in the East. Like, how could you come out of this weekend feeling great or feeling even remotely confident about the Knicks relative to the Cavs and the Celtics? Like, those are the two styles they have to be able to compete with and they can't even hang on the floor with them.
- [42:40]
Kaz
Yep. So they're now 07 against the Celtics Cavs in Thunder, which is not very good. It's tough because on the one hand, it seemed like that game was over within the first five minutes. They missed a couple of shots, the Celtics ran it back on them, and it seemed like they were down 14 immediately. They did climb back in within four. The problem is they just need so much from that starting unit. I'm not even joking. They need the starting unit to play every goddamn minute. And Tibbs would love to do that to that point. He basically killed Carl Anthony Town.
- [43:07]
David Shoemaker
I was about to say, like, Carl Anthony Towns is, like, holding his knee in place, and Tibbs, like, yeah, here's an aspirin. Get back out there the game. You're down 18 points with three minutes left, but who gives a fuck? Like, I know this is classic Tibbs stuff, but does that make it any more acceptable? Like, what are. What are we doing to Karl Anthony Towns?
- [43:26]
Kaz
I mean, he's going to die on his shield, so he might as well, like, make the most of this season anyway. I just, like, if you play, if you rely on the starters more in playoffs series, I could see whether they could be a little bit more competitive. The problem is that you're just wearing them down in the regular season to the point where, like, even there's somewhat deep team, at least for a Tibs team. Last year fell apart because these guys were just grinding out games in the middle of February. And so it's gotten to the point now where, as we get the day by day, Mitchell Robinson update. That seemed like the type of move, if he came back and was productive and could make them big in the front core, at least give him that option, it would push them over the top. Now it seems like it's necessary just to make do just to get by, to get us to the point where we're still the number three seed in the Eastern Conference and that. And that's a really tough place. They seem desperate at this point.
- [44:14]
Rob Mahoney
So two things about the Mitchell Robinson thing. One, they told us when training camp started to be back in January. He's now doing full contact. It's February. It's about to be March, y'all.
- [44:24]
David Shoemaker
Yep.
- [44:25]
Rob Mahoney
Okay, so there's that part of it. Two, I look, I like what Mitchell Robinson can do in the regular season in terms of shoring up the defense, like, kind of cleaning up their big man rotation between Cat and Precious, and just helping them sort of like just like just plug a couple of holes and leaks in the ship so that they're not completely drowning on that end. However. Mitchell Robinson, recipient of five ankle surgeries. He's just, he's just not the player I think is going to make you a better defense against Boston. I actually think Precious t'chua is actually way more suited to the Boston style of offense and defending that than Mitchell Robinson is. And so like I like what Mitchell Robinson is going to do in the playoffs. I mean in the in the regular season in terms of giving Cat, letting Cat play the four like he was doing last year in Minnesota. You know letting Precious come in there when he has to. Not like over overdoing his contributions but like you know when I read that 07 stat line against the three best teams in the NBA Mitchell Robinson to me does nothing to to fix the issues that have that they face when they played these elite teams.
- [45:42]
David Shoemaker
No I think he'll be helpful against some of the other run of the mill teams in the east as the Knicks are fighting for seeding and just trying to like write this thing that's helpful but in addition to everything you laid out wise when was the last time we saw Mitchell Robinson not only on the court but look like Mitchell Robinson like the last time we saw him be actually good in his usual form was November 2023. I want to say like we are a long way removed from the version of Mitchell Robinson you may remember and even in those best of times he is not a disciplined defender. He's a good rim protector, he's a good rebounder, he's a live body inside. But yeah offensive rebounder 100 and you but you put him out there guarding Chris Epsport Zingis and you think good things are going to happen like there's no place for him in some of.
- [46:27]
Kaz
These matchups and that's the issue with the way the bracket is breaking where it seems like it's going to be. CAV. Celtics, Knicks 1, 2, 3. Unless something dramatic happens. Unless the Cavs are just struck by injuries and for the Knicks to have to go through the Celtics to get to the Cavs is pretty much a non starter. They look worse against the Celtics than virtually any of these matchups. I could see where like the offense is so juiced and we should mention they are tied for third in offense with the Celtics. The offense is incredible and can be if those guys are all healthy. And I can see it where like oh they steal it against the Cavs just because they they have the stretch in order to force the Caps to play in the shootout.
- [47:02]
Rob Mahoney
I just don't see it themselves, two big lineups. They're going to give them places to, you know, excel at the Celtics enough.
- [47:11]
Kaz
Here's the other question. Like do, do we think that the Knicks can stay at the 3? Because for a while we had talked about them as part of the 1, 2, 3. But if anything, they're starting to slip farther and farther. They're four games up on the Pacers, who are fourth. But it doesn't look that far of a chasm considering the way that they've been playing for practically like what, half a month now.
- [47:31]
David Shoemaker
Yeah. And The Pacers since January 1st, one of the best teams in the NBA, like one of the best point differentials, top 10 on both sides of the ball. They've cleaned up so much in the way that they're playing. I think they're the most credible threat. If you're talking about a team that could be as good as the Knicks, competitive with the Knicks, potentially overtake them in the standings. With all due respect to Kyle Kuzma's Bucks, I don't think that they're going to make that kind of run necessarily. But a Pacers team that is back to its usual style with Halliburton playing so aggressively again, they've had to make do with and without Miles Turner. It hasn't mattered. They've been able to make it all work. Indy has like such a good deep regular season rotation that I could see them really putting up a fight here as far as who the best team or the third best team in the Eastern Conference is.
- [48:15]
Rob Mahoney
I think Indy and Milwaukee both match up better with the Celtics.
- [48:22]
David Shoemaker
Yes.
- [48:22]
Rob Mahoney
Than do the Knicks. Do I necessarily think head to head, I probably pick the Knicks over both of those teams in a head to head matchup. But like again, the matchups and the styles do make the fights in terms of who has a better chance. I just think both of those teams can credibly say they've played Boston better more competitively than the Knicks have in the past two seasons.
- [48:49]
Kaz
Yeah, Rob likes the Pacers, was likes the bucks. It's like November 2023 for us too.
- [48:56]
David Shoemaker
We're all right back.
- [48:58]
Kaz
Next up, we got to talk about awards because this is starting to become more of a conversation. We've got what, what is it like month plus left of data in order to pour over. But it seems like the MVP race is a two man race according at least to some of the straw poll action happening on ESPN and other places. I want to talk first and foremost about all NBA because one of the fallouts of Wemby's pretty tragic. What would you call it? Not an injury, just health scare.
- [49:24]
David Shoemaker
Health situation.
- [49:26]
Kaz
Situation one. One of the. One of the fallouts of Wimby's potentially tragic health situation there.
- [49:34]
David Shoemaker
Potentially tragic. May be too strong.
- [49:37]
Kaz
Too strong.
- [49:38]
David Shoemaker
I like that. That makes it sound like he's on his deathbed.
- [49:40]
Kaz
You know, you don't know that he isn't.
- [49:42]
David Shoemaker
I mean, I don't know that he.
- [49:43]
Rob Mahoney
Isn'T, but what if he never plays again? That would be a tragedy.
- [49:46]
David Shoemaker
No, that would be. But we don't have any reason to think that's what's gonna happen.
- [49:49]
Rob Mahoney
Okay, cool.
- [49:51]
Kaz
One of the fallouts of Wemby's health situation that we talked about in last week's podcast is that he is now ineligible for awards consideration. And I had probably penciled it and I hadn't really done the, the hard work yet about all NBA penciling him in in the fifth spot. And so all of a sudden that becomes open in a way that I wasn't expecting. I'm curious what you guys have in pencil right now as you're kind of queuing these things up. I think like the four first spots are pretty much set, right? It's Jokic, sga, Giannis, Tatum. Does everybody have those guys?
- [50:23]
David Shoemaker
No question.
- [50:24]
Kaz
Now that fifth spot, at least to me, seems wide open. Do you guys think that there's a clear cut guy or what are you thinking there?
- [50:31]
David Shoemaker
I don't think there's a clear cut guy. And honestly, Giannis only has I think like 5ish games to spare as well. And so if he misses any time the rest of the way, there could be two spots all of a sudden up for grabs. I don't know where you are was, I think, top of my list right now in terms of who I think will make it, regardless of what I think and the actual case that I would make. I think Donovan Mitchell will make it.
- [50:55]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, it becomes one of those things where, oh, the, you know, the Thunder have to have two all Stars because they're so clearly the best team in the west. Or, you know, it's going to be one of those cases like Donovan Mitchell has to, like the Cleveland has to be represented on the first team all NBA ballot. And I'm not, I can't say that I'm like completely against that.
- [51:17]
David Shoemaker
Yeah, it's not a bad case that Mitchell has.
- [51:20]
Rob Mahoney
It's, it's, it's not. But, you know, I think it's going to be jumbled too. Like somebody like AD the way he was playing for the Lakers before suffering this injury, somebody I've been completely fine with, like that kind of candidacy is fine for me, but I understand why people might want to be like, you know what? Donovan Mitchell is the guy.
- [51:43]
Kaz
What do we think about LeBron? He's on the short list at the very least. On the one hand, like earlier in the season, the defense was not credible enough in order to be on this sort of level, but he's picked it up on both ends at this point. The numbers are honestly a better statistical case than anybody else. He's only missed four games somehow this season, so he's going to be eligible for this. 25, 8 and 9. I didn't think I would get here at this point in the season, but he has a pretty compelling case at this point.
- [52:12]
David Shoemaker
Well, especially if you do want to stack it up. Not in a oh, the Cavs are required to have one representative kind of way, but just like his Casey and say Anthony Edwards, who Anthony Edwards, I would say is having a more exemplary production season in some ways in terms of the load he carries in generating offense. What he means to driving the Wolves like he is doing a level of night to night lifting that LeBron for everything he brings to the table for the Lakers hasn't always had to have. That's not the right. Let me take that again. He's doing a level of night to night heavy lifting that LeBron hasn't always. And so you can understand a case building for someone like Ant, but then you look in the standings and this is a case where if the Lakers end up dramatically higher than the Wolves, that's going to pull Ant's case down, it's going to lift LeBron's case up. You're just getting to a point with LeBron where overall the quality of play, the resurgent defense that you mentioned, which I would say significantly predates Luca, it's really been more of like a turn of the calendar year kind of thing, if not a little before that. In addition to just the mounting momentum for the Lakers overall, it makes a pretty decent case. I think the short list right now is Mitchell is LeBron is Jalen Brunson and Cat is Ant. And we probably need to at least have a conversation about Jaren Jackson Jr. Would you like to have that.
- [53:33]
Rob Mahoney
First team, all NBA like saying he's been one of the five best players in the NBA this year. Even when you account for or even top seven players, when you account for Luka missing all of these games and. And maybe Giannis falling off because of games missed like that seems like a far stretch to me to be like, all right, these guys who are normally penciled in, the Lucas and the Giannis's because of these new rules they're taking out and to be like Jaren Jackson has kind of been right behind him. I think that's a bit much.
- [54:06]
David Shoemaker
It is a bit much, Justin. But let me, let me make the case to you. If the Grizzlies end up as the second best team in the west, second seed in the West, Jaren Jackson Jr. Because Victor Wembanyama is now ineligible for awards, wins defensive player of the year, which seems like a real possibility, he's going to be one of the front runners for that award. If you're the defensive player of the year putting up close to 25 points a game as the first option on the number two seed in the west, aren't you a pretty viable all NBA first team candidate?
- [54:36]
Kaz
First option is a little bit of funny math there. That is not he.
- [54:40]
David Shoemaker
He is straight up the first option of the Memphis Grizzlies.
- [54:43]
Kaz
Well, but Morant is driving things when he's on the court. The problem is Branch just not there. And like he is setting up Jackson. So if we're going to say the first option is by passing to Jiren Jackson, then yes, they have devised an.
- [54:56]
David Shoemaker
Entire offense to not be reliant on John Moran doing exactly that. Like that is the structure of their team.
- [55:02]
Kaz
Now when he's in the, when he is playing, even, even when he's out.
- [55:07]
David Shoemaker
There, they, they consciously go around him and they don't run pick and roll for that reason.
- [55:11]
Kaz
I, I think you're, you're putting a little fine of a point on it. First option, I think Marin is definitely much more in the flow of what they're doing. But to say that Jiren is like the source of that. He's the steady foundation of a very good team. And so if you want to Rob.
- [55:26]
Rob Mahoney
Is making him their. Nicola Jokic and I don't like it.
- [55:31]
David Shoemaker
He is not Nicola Jokic. I'm not saying that. But like leads the team in shot attempts would lead the team in usage if not for John Morant's turnovers. Like he is that guy for them.
- [55:41]
Kaz
Well, you can't discount turnovers just because it doesn't fit the narrative that he's not doing as much. That's still part of usage.
- [55:47]
David Shoemaker
Oh, it is part of usage. I'm just saying.
- [55:49]
Kaz
Not positive usage. It's just. But he's so he's. Thus he's Doing more.
- [55:53]
David Shoemaker
He is doing a lot argument.
- [55:55]
Kaz
Yes.
- [55:55]
David Shoemaker
My argument is that John Morant is more central to the way that the Grizzlies play this season and this season only. I'm not saying past this season than John Morantis.
- [56:03]
Kaz
Yeah, sure.
- [56:04]
Rob Mahoney
But like yes, I, I get, I get you're adding the defensive player to year component. But again like for me, like I'm still, I'd still say Steph Curry is more deserving of the spot than Jaren Jackson is. And I've loved of Jaren Jackson's season. I just feel like he's more, I don't know, he's more of a complimentary kind of player to me than a first team all NBA kind of guy. But I don't think it's wholly ridiculous. But if you're adding because again these narrative cases, these narrative factors do factor into what voters choose to do and I think we're going to get into the MVP and the quote unquote closeness or not closeness of that race. And I think narrative is driving that. I understand the narrative. I just think on the floor, I don't know. He just doesn't, he doesn't feel like a first team all NBA or to me that's fair.
- [56:57]
Kaz
I'll say this, I think Jaren has completely raised the ceiling that I ever thought he would be because he has managed to blend the version he was last year when he was basically playing through mistakes and figuring out his own offense with the player he was before. He has gotten his own stuff within the flow of the offense and that's a credit to him. I didn't think he would ever get to this point where he was a regular efficient 20 points per game scorer. And so maybe he's in the mix but for a first team all NBA I think he ultimately settled into a second team all NBA. But I, I would often default to a guy like an Edwards who is driving a lot of the action over Jaren Jackson. Do you have Jaren Jackson on your short list for MVP as well? Are we getting to that point?
- [57:39]
David Shoemaker
I mean if my, my first team all NBA is not really very different from my, my top five MVP battle. Like I don't see those things as being all that distinct. So I think he's got to be on the list at least to, to make it on the back part of that ballot. Jaren Jackson Jr. Is not the MVP. It's not even close. As far as him too the actual front runners for that award maker either.
- [57:58]
Rob Mahoney
He's not, he's not on my ballot.
- [57:59]
David Shoemaker
He probably will not make the ballot. But I think you have to have the conversation. Like I think that's where it is with him. And if anything, to me that is part of a larger discussion about the 65 game rule and kind of what it is doing to things like all NBA. It's like we're going to end up with a team that may not feel all that representative. A snapshot of where the league is right now because guys like Victor Wembanyama are not eligible for it. And I don't really know how to feel about that.
- [58:25]
Kaz
Yeah, especially if someone like Giannis were to miss more games down the stretch and just miss it, then it would start to feel bad. I, I get someone more like Wemby or some of these guys that have missed large chunks of games. Jaws. Another guy, I don't think he would make it into the all NBA ballot. But like just those guys would miss so many games in a regular year that we wouldn't consider them probably anyway. But you're right, it doesn't feel like our reality that we've experienced for now a couple months. And so that dissonance is. It's really tough to square at this point. I, I don't mind the rule, but when it. You're drawing a fine line between someone like, like 65 and 62, that's when I think it's going to start to be kind of an issue here. But let's talk about MVP just quickly because as I kind of alluded to, it seems like it's a two guy race at this point. According to the ESPN straw poll that happened a couple days ago, every first place vote went to either Shea Gildrus Alexander or Nikola Jokic. I would have assumed, based on being in the Stockholm syndrome of this podcast, that Jokic was far and away the guy who got the majority of those. But Shea had 70 to Jokic's 30. Yeah, and as I'm just like hearing guys on the broadcast, just looking at what's going on in the discourse, there's just this assumption that Shea is going to win this that I personally have found shocking. Do you guys, are you picking up on the same thing?
- [59:46]
David Shoemaker
I feel like our influence is not as strong as we need it to.
- [59:49]
Rob Mahoney
Be, is what I'm hearing.
- [59:50]
Kaz
Like we need to, we need to.
- [59:52]
David Shoemaker
Get out there helping the people understand what's going on with the Denver Nuggets this season.
- [59:57]
Rob Mahoney
I, I think again the case is close enough Jokic haven't already won three of these things.
- [60:05]
David Shoemaker
Yeah.
- [60:05]
Rob Mahoney
This season not Feeling like some huge, like, I think this is his best season, but it doesn't feel like some huge leap from the previous MVP seasons. Like his own standard is not being dwarfed. It's like he's just adding on to his already insane standard. And so you add all of those narrative factors in Shay playing. Look, like, I just looked at all the numbers, man. Like, there's really no number that supports Shea Gilgames Alexander actually having a more solid season. Like the scoring efficiency, the playmaking on Jokic's part. Like, even like the defensive stats fraudulent, some people might find them. Like, Jokic has good defensive stats too. Like there's no. And I'm not talking about blocks and steals. I'm talking about like how his teams perform defensively while he's on the court. Like, there's nothing indicating that Shai has had a better season. There's no clear cut indication of this. The only case for him is that Jokic has already won three. That's it. That's his case. And this would be Shay's first. And also the team is not just number one in the west, but dominating in terms of point differential. And Shai's minutes are obviously insane. But then you look at Jokic on and off and it's like the differential is crazy too. But then you say, oh, that's because he has a whacker team behind him. Like, I just don't see the clear cut case for Shay having a better season than Jokic, but I understand why voters are just like, I'm giving it to the kid with this great story.
- [61:43]
David Shoemaker
Yeah, I think he, I think he will win. I just don't think he should win. To me, if you're the best player in the world and your team is reasonably in the mix and the Nuggets are third seed in the west, you should win. And Nicole Jokic is the best player in the world. That's no slight to Shay Gilchrist Alexander, who's awesome, but he is. He's not quite at that level. And very few players in the history of the league have been at the level that Jokic is at right now.
- [62:08]
Kaz
Yeah, it's just, it's tough to square when we have given Jokic three awards and so we clearly value what he has brought. Not just us in this room, but also the voting body at large. They value what Jokic brings. Right? And now he's doing that better than ever before. So how do you not give him another one if he's just doing what you already awarded better? It just like it logically it doesn't make sense there. It has to be butter fatigue. It has to be because of the Thunders regular season standings. But it's not like the Nuggets have performed so poorly. This isn't like one of Jokic's earlier MVPs where I believe they were like kind of lower in the standings. This isn't a Russell Westbrook, the Thunder or six in the standing where he's just bringing up everybody around him like they're squarely in the mix. They're clearly I think consensus number two team.
- [62:56]
Rob Mahoney
Also, nobody thought Russell Westbrook was the best player in the league when he like, no, like people were like, well he's doing the triple doubles and he's levels and I was one of, one of those people. But nobody's like yeah, Russ is the best player in the league easily. No, I guess I can leave that when he, when he won mvp.
- [63:10]
Kaz
Well do you value that? Because I think look at this more as like the body of the work of an individual season rather than maybe the best player in the world conversation, which is a little bit different. I might start to work in some of the FIBA stuff and just generally just what we know about these guys.
- [63:25]
David Shoemaker
I think I, I start from the place of who are the best players in the league and who are the ones who are delivering on that promise, who aren't just like, oh, I'm a great player who's coasting through the regular season. I'm a great player who isn't meeting the game's played threshold like Nikola Jokic is the best player by production. He's the best player by impact. He's the best player by what he is to Denver every night. Shea is like an amazing contributor in so many different ways. An unbelievable one on one score. Clearly the driver of OKC's offense. And if you wanted to make an argument that's kind of in the Allen Iverson, Derrick Rose mold as far as you know, Jokic is driving what Denver does well, but Shea is bailing out in some ways what OKC doesn't always do as well. Right. They are a rickety offense. At some times they do rely on the threes like they rely so much on his ability to generate clean looks for himself and other people. I'm open to that argument. I just think you have quite a mountain to climb because Jokic is doing a lot of the same things but better.
- [64:24]
Kaz
Yeah. So I was just kind of surprised because it is kind of almost like a foregone conclusion. People talk about him as the eventual MVP winner. I'm just like, what happened? I almost feel like I just. I was awakened from my slumber because I've been with you this whole time. It's just like, but the whole world has changed.
- [64:44]
Rob Mahoney
But this is. But this isn't dissimilar to Embiid's MVP case. It was like, look, he's. He's playing closer.
- [64:52]
Kaz
Not go too far here.
- [64:53]
Rob Mahoney
I'm just saying it's. It's the same thing. It's like he's playing close enough to as good as this guy. We're not trying to give him his third straight one. All right, like, somebody's close enough. Let's give it to them. Especially somebody who has never won before.
- [65:08]
David Shoemaker
Yep.
- [65:08]
Rob Mahoney
Who's had a proven track record of being an excellent NBA player. Let's give it to him. Yoki Embiid's case was like, I'm not saying like he had no K, no empirical case, but like, most of it was narrative, most of it was voter fatigue. And I think that's the same thing that's happening right now.
- [65:25]
David Shoemaker
And Shea is a perfectly worthy mvp. It's not.
- [65:28]
Rob Mahoney
I'm not gonna lose sleep over it.
- [65:30]
David Shoemaker
No, it's not gonna be the kind of thing we look back at historically, like, oh, my God, I can't believe Shay Gil just Alexander, one of the greatest one on one scorers of basically his era at this point, doesn't deserve to win this award. Of course he does.
- [65:42]
Kaz
I think Jokic, I think Embiid's case was a little bit better than what you guys are remembering, but we don't have to get down.
- [65:50]
Rob Mahoney
Is it better than Shay's right now?
- [65:52]
Kaz
I think the difference in. Yes, I think it was. I think Embiid was more dominant and he was more central to what the Sixers did than Shea is. I think Shay's team and supporting cast plays a lot into why the Thunder are successful. And their defense, as we mentioned, is partly why they're so successful and be. The whole thing was indeed was just steamrolling people. Also, he played better down the stretch, and I think people forget that Jokic just basically waved his hand, was like, I'll see you in two months. I'm going to win the. The title instead. That has to factor in anyway. Number five, last one on the board. Who has it worse? Speaking of Embiid, who has it worse at this point from going from now onto next season and beyond, Phoenix or Philly? Philly.
- [66:40]
Rob Mahoney
It's Philly.
- [66:42]
David Shoemaker
Yeah.
- [66:42]
Rob Mahoney
Phoenix. They have, I think the combination of KD and Devin Booker are better trade chips than Maxi and Embiid as a combination. So what do I mean by that? I mean, if. If either team decided to change course right now, like, and go in the complete opposite direction of what they've been pursuing for the last three years, I think Phoenix would probably come out with more stuff than what Philly does. And also, I don't think Philly is gonna do that. I think they're gonna just ride this thing out.
- [67:19]
Kaz
They're a little locked in.
- [67:21]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [67:22]
David Shoemaker
Do we think. Would you feel differently about this was if Philly does, say, lose a bunch of games to close out this season and is able to keep their first round pick and like that keeping it at minimum means it's top six, potentially could be a top three or four pick for, for the Sixers at this point.
- [67:40]
Rob Mahoney
If the Sixers end up with the sixth pick in this year's draft, like, my instinct is to think they're. They're gonna draft and Asar Thompson, Jonathan Kaminga, like, I don't know.
- [67:53]
David Shoemaker
Well, they could trade. They could trade it though. Yeah, I think it would be more.
- [67:58]
Rob Mahoney
For somebody more established.
- [68:00]
David Shoemaker
Right. I think that would be the idea.
- [68:01]
Rob Mahoney
Talking about their future being brighter, but like, yeah, I guess they could use that to, to improve upon what's happening here. I just. Man, the. The season that Paul George is having, the, the freaking. The.
- [68:17]
Kaz
The.
- [68:18]
Rob Mahoney
The knee, the. The MB knee, where it's just like there's nothing left to operate on guys. Like, it's just. It's just a degenerative ailment that he has. His knee is just getting worse and worse. That's just what the reality is of his injury. And then you combine Paul George has got three years left on the deal and he looks like a pumpkin. Then you combine the fact that EMBIID signed a three year, $190 million extension in September, which means that there's four years left on his deal after this year at about 50. An average of about 58 million or something like that. Yes. It's looking real spooky here in Philadelphia right now, I must say. Sorry, Chris Ryan.
- [69:05]
Kaz
I don't know how Daryl Morey survives this. If he were to ever try to pivot away from the current construction, which is already so difficult, as was kind of outlined there, just because of all the contracts they have in the books. Like, at the very worst case scenario, Phoenix could raise their entire team down. They would still have Devin Booker and either to have on their team or to trade away for Other stuff, people will still give a lot for that. So you could turn the page in that instance, which is still quite bad. But in comparison to Philly, is anybody signing up for Joel Embiid? Like, if we were to do the expansion draft and Embiid was eligible just because the Sixers wanted to get rid of him, he just isn't going to be able to play enough. Are the Vegas Blackjacks drafting in Bead in order to take a shot on him?
- [69:53]
David Shoemaker
Oh, you are?
- [69:53]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [69:54]
David Shoemaker
Speaking for our war room. Yeah. We're taking Joel Embiid.
- [69:57]
Rob Mahoney
We're taking it. We're taking Joel Embiid.
- [69:59]
David Shoemaker
What else you got going on?
- [70:01]
Kaz
Well, I think there's a difference between doing nothing for two to three years and, like, maybe beyond that. I think that's a lot to ask your fans if a guy on a max contract can't play for like four years. Because that's what we're talking about here. He is now, according to the reporting, basically clashing with the organization about whether he should or should not play through what he's going through. And it sounds like him playing more is doing more damage to his knee, which is going to cause obviously, longer term concerns. It's like, it's as dark as it gets.
- [70:32]
David Shoemaker
It's not great. When the language of these reports is about exploring, like, more radical treatment options. Like, that's when, you know, we've kind of gone into the deep end with this stuff.
- [70:41]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, they're gonna get like cadaver PCLs and stuff the put in them. Like, it's, it's scary, just scary stuff. I, I look again, the four years left on his deal where, look, if he didn't play, let's just say he shut down right now, immediately, got the procedure done or whatever. It's now March, training camp opens in September. That's six months from now. Is that it? Like, would he make it to training camp?
- [71:14]
David Shoemaker
The fact that we have to ask the question is not good.
- [71:16]
Kaz
The press release would say he is going to be ready for training camp. We know that. But.
- [71:21]
David Shoemaker
But here's the thing about this.
- [71:22]
Rob Mahoney
The Olympics, too.
- [71:23]
David Shoemaker
Yeah. Here's the thing about this Phoenix or Philadelphia dilemma in terms of the state we can reasonably expect these players to be in. Kevin Durant is the best player. And if you were to shift directions in any meaningful way, Devin Booker is the single most valuable player that would get you the biggest possible return of anyone on either of these rosters. And I say that not because even with Maxi.
- [71:45]
Rob Mahoney
We love Maxi.
- [71:46]
David Shoemaker
Oh, absolutely. But you can Imagine with Booker's skill set if he were to hit the market. Any team could talk themselves into Devin Booker. Like he fits basically every style. He could, you could pencil him into any lineup. He's so versatile and so flexible in that way. And we just saw it with Team USA that he can play with other stars, right? Like he can, he can fill any kind of role you need him to fill. And because of that I think the bidding war would be substantial. But you have to talk yourself into Paul George. You have to talk yourself into Joel Embiid. Tyrese Maxey has a lot of admirers around the league, is turning out to be a really great player. But I just don't think would get the kind of frothing market ultimately that Devin Booker would.
- [72:22]
Kaz
What about this season specifically? We're talking about you have to turn on either team. You have to watch every team, every game of this one team the entire season. Season. Who has had the worst vibes, the Suns or the Phillies?
- [72:35]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, that's tough because there are. You're talking about all time terrible vibes here. But I would like to send a text, read a text from, let's just say a mutual colleague of ours who, who text me. Having been to the spurs and Suns game the other night and the quote is, was at spurs and Sons last night. I cannot believe it's not a national story how much Durant hates every person on the Suns like they stole his car. The text message thread continues cursing out Bud getting in a fight with CP3. I guess they don't like each other because the rant basically got him traded from Phoenix. This was a parenthetical not dapping up any of his teammates till the game got a little close in the fourth quarter. Stood in the far corner on the other side and end of the court during spurs free throws and basically was a decoy on Sons offense. And mind you, this was his Austin homecoming game. Forgot that Durant is a Longhorn like one Rob Mahoney.
- [73:49]
David Shoemaker
Yeah, don't forget. You cannot forget that hook em. Obviously the KD thing has become completely.
- [73:54]
Rob Mahoney
And utterly toxic over there. Toxic. It's. It's untenable. Like the idea that this guy's gonna be suited up for them after this season is laughable. He's gone and he's already gone like he's done and so you. The injuries and Paul George just. He's just so big. He was an all NBA player last year. Yeah, he's so, so bad. And the Joel just limping around and he can't Jump over a freaking dictionary. Like, it's just. Ugh. It's tough, y'all.
- [74:27]
Kaz
I know that the tick tocks and now you tell us sort of stories that come out after these sorts of instances are always a little bit baked with water, carrying, and you're not really sure, like, if you're getting the full story.
- [74:38]
Rob Mahoney
No, the thing is gonna be real.
- [74:40]
Kaz
I can't wait to read this one just to find out how we got to the point where the Suns pivoted from trading for Jimmy Butler to entertaining trades for Kevin Durant out of Phoenix. There's a real, like, call the cops, but not for me turnaround situation that happened there. It's like, I just don't understand. Did they realize that things were so bleak that that is all they had at that point that Katie was going to leave in the office? I don't know, but I want to find out because that is one of the wildest circumstances that kind of got that brushed aside as we were all, like, kind of. Our eyes were bugging out about Luca and everybody and.
- [75:18]
Rob Mahoney
And just not to hit the crazy speculation, whatever. There's already speculation out there that Nico Harrison is going to try to trade for KD in the off season. Like, all of this, like, it's. It is what it is. But the Phoenix thing, it's. It's true. Like, I think Phoenix just isn't a national obsession in the way the Sixers are. Call it east coast bias, I don't know. But, like, the Sixers thing, I mean, the. Excuse me. The KD thing is bad, y'all. It's bad. What's happening there?
- [75:49]
David Shoemaker
It is bad. A question on that front. What is it that the Mavericks are gonna trade for Kevin Durant?
- [75:55]
Rob Mahoney
I don't know.
- [75:55]
Kaz
Max Christie.
- [75:56]
David Shoemaker
Max Christie. The Lakers picks, they didn't get their own picks that they don't have. And Dante Exum. Let's go.
- [76:05]
Rob Mahoney
Well, KD's got one year left on his deal, right?
- [76:08]
David Shoemaker
Yeah.
- [76:09]
Kaz
Yeah.
- [76:10]
Rob Mahoney
Well, yeah. So it doesn't have to be that expensive for kd.
- [76:13]
Kaz
Yeah. I think he's going to pick his next team, which is going to be a little bit different than when he.
- [76:17]
Rob Mahoney
Ultimately seemed like a Jimmy Bucket situation again.
- [76:21]
Kaz
Yeah. And so maybe he'll have more of a hand. It seemed like Phoenix was just frothing at the mouth in order to get him from Brooklyn. He kind of just went along with the plan there. So, like, I don't know how much you could really ding him for, once again, picking a bad situation, but it is one of the wildest back half of a career, and it's now becoming practically half of his career. For a player who's going to go down as like, one of the, what, top 15, top 20, 20, 25, whatever you want to put KD that I can ever remember. He just, like, has been irrelevant from the broader title race outside of when they traded for James Harden. Like, they were very much a very good team there. They just never got out of the second. He hasn't been out of the second round since he left. Left Golden State in 2019. Yeah, it's wild.
- [77:04]
Rob Mahoney
I was talking to somebody who used to work with KD early on in his career, and, you know, if you guys. And he reminded me of something, he was like, yo, this guy was universally beloved amongst the fandom. And is this person's belief that, like, if KD would have managed his career a certain way, he would have been just as big, if not bigger than, like, LeBron. That's, like, the direction everything was moving towards for him in terms of his Q rating with every average fan, young fans. That OkC. OkC team was a sensation. And, like, for it to turn out the way that it has, where it's like, he's going to basically sour puss his way out of another situation. It's tough, man. It's really tough.
- [77:53]
Kaz
Yeah.
- [77:54]
David Shoemaker
I'm not defending his sour puss temperament. The problem with Phoenix is that there are so many problems with Phoenix. And so it's like, on the one hand, I get why he would be a little sour about it. I get why, if you're Kevin Durant having a pretty good Kevin Durant season, while you look around and say, like, can we really not make this work in any conceivable way? Can we not be a baseline functional NBA team? That would seem like a pretty frustrating position to find yourself in if you're a player of that caliber. But to hear that the vibes might get even worse if there is, like, a prolonged trade situation, that this could be the start of something horrendous for Phoenix and not hopefully close to the end of it is just so dispiriting. And so, like, to answer your question, Justin, I think the answer might, oddly enough, be the Sixers. And that's a team that has, like, three guys I enjoy watching and that have actually played hard.
- [78:42]
Rob Mahoney
That's. And that's crazy.
- [78:45]
Kaz
I think I might agree with Rob. I mean, Phoenix is 2 and 8 over their past 10 games. The two wins have come against Chicago, a game that went down to the Wire, which I watched because I have zero self respect for myself. And against Utah, a game that went into overtime, like they are struggling against the absolute bottom of the barrel of the NBA right now. It's very bad.
- [79:08]
David Shoemaker
I mean, they just got run off the court by the Raptors. And granted, the Sixers, the Sixers got punked by the Nets with everybody playing for them more or less. You know, no Jared McCain obviously, but Embiid, Maxi, Paul George, those guys are all out there. And you're losing to the Brooklyn Nets. The resurgent Brooklyn Nets, granted, but still the Brooklyn Nets, it's not good. Salute to Gershon Yabuzale, Salute to Kelly Oubre, salute to Quentin Grimes, and salute to absolutely nobody else.
- [79:34]
Rob Mahoney
The Sixers thing to me is ultimately more depressing because people legitimately thought they could make a run to the NBA Finals this year. Year. You know, watching how Maxi performed in the playoffs last year. Embiid being Embiid, Paul George being all NBA player. People like the sort of supporting cast that they put around them in terms of how Mory filled out the rest of the roster. Like people were excited about this team and they are headed to the bottom basement of the Eastern Conference just unceremoniously. It's, it's, it's bleak.
- [80:07]
David Shoemaker
Guys, I, I think that's a good point to bring up as we inevitably get into our off season conversations about the little moves that we like and the way these teams are rounding out their rosters. On the one hand we can be very, very wrong on paper how these team things will actually work when it comes to these, especially like veteran minimum kind of signings. But when you think about what's happened to Philly, like Eric Gordon has not been good basically the entirety of the season and has been injured. Shocker. Andre Drummond is unplayable. Right. Like all of these guys that they brought in, except for Yabuzeli. I would say on kind of bargain contracts have not worked out. They've already moved on from Caleb Martin. They've already traded Reggie Jackson. He wasn't useful for them at all. Like none of those turned out to be actual players. And you can't have that many whiffs and still be a functional team. Especially when you're as top heavy as the Sixers are.
- [80:56]
Kaz
Yep, we've been talking about it all season. It's a young man's league, you know. And looking back on it, it is odd that nobody questioned Paul George at age 35, 4, showing signs of a lack of aggression, getting a full four year max contract just right off the bat. I know he was super efficient last year. I know he is the type of guy you want around two stars like Embiid and Maxi. But like, you know, I think the fact that he's declining is totally normal. I wonder if LeBron has just completely warped our brains to think like a late 30s guy just can compete at an all star level for this long into his career.
- [81:30]
Rob Mahoney
So the thing is, the fall off from LeBron probably second, third, first best player ever to whatever the hell he was at at 35, to whatever Paul George's peak, which is decidedly not that.
- [81:45]
David Shoemaker
No.
- [81:45]
Rob Mahoney
And to what he is at 35. It's just, it's just a big. It's just a big difference. Difference, man.
- [81:52]
Kaz
All right, let's wrap it there. Thank you to Ben Cruz on production. We'll be back on Thursday as usual. Talk to you then.