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The Ringer NBA Show
Draft Lottery Winners and Losers. Plus, the Knicks Advance and More. | Group Chat
01:26:43
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Mann. Kyle, broadcasting live from Chicago, about to go to the combine. What's the buzz? What's the feeling going on down there?
- [00:30]
B
I'm just, I'm just raring and ready to deep dish on some draft scuttlebutt. Justin, that was for Rob. There's a, there's a lot of, there's a lot of chatter going on here. I mean the biggest thing going that, that I've heard so far is that we're, we are in store for major flux. Like we've talked a lot about the nil. I know we're jumping right into it here. I think the board that we are seeing it now in the, like beyond the lottery and maybe even creeping up on the lottery could be vastly different from, you know, even as high as like 12 to 30. So it's, it's a wild, wild time in the NBA draft world.
- [01:05]
C
Justin, how do you feel about flux generally?
- [01:09]
A
Like it like a little chaos. And that's why I love the NBA draft lottery. Anything can happen. And it seems like even more can happen once they flatten the odds even more. But like we got some real turnover at the top of the lottery this time.
- [01:22]
C
Some turnover, some dashed hopes. Like I feel like a lot of fans being extremely down bad this morning coming off of the draft lottery. So you hate to see it for them. And I think this is the hard part of the tanking experience, right, is like watching your team be bad all year only to see the lottery odds turn against you. And so while it's certainly interesting for teams like the Clippers, who I know we're going to talk about, I just, you know, if you're a, if you're a Nets fan, if you're a Grizzlies fan, if you're a Pacers fan, extremely rough stuff.
- [01:52]
A
Well, why don't we get into some of those winners and losers? But first we have to take an unnecessarily early AD break. So let's do that first.
- [01:59]
B
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- [02:14]
A
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B
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- [02:28]
A
The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by fanduel. It's been a wild playoff run, but it's not over yet and FanDuel wants to bring you closer to the court to make more of all the action to come. FanDuel is the best place to bet teams, players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger pace payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 plus select states 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER Call 1-888-78-9777 or visit ccpg.org ChatInCenetic all right, we're going to get into some playoff action here. Go through the four series or three after the Knicks advanced on Sunday. But first we got to do draft lottery winners and losers. Let's just start at the top here. I like to think that the draft lottery, we go into it thinking all about like the karmic value and who the gods are going to reward for this or that. If anything, it seemed like they rewarded the most aggressive, egregious tankers of the second half of the season. D.C. obviously stayed at one, but the Jazz got penalized because of how blatant their tanking was and the Grizzlies were very aggressive about that as well. So it's like yes, the top a couple teams moved down who did pretty poorly this season and intentionally did so. But then you had another wave of teams that did it just because the tanking field was so long here. So I don't know, I don't really have any like big picture like who got it right in this one.
- [03:55]
C
Well, nobody got it right because it's ping pong balls deciding the fates of many people and many, many millions of dollars and really like, I think reshaping some of the league in certain ways, right? If Oklahoma City had hit the jackpot, that would have been a disastrous thing for basically every other team in the Western Conference. If the Pacers had been able to hold on to their pick and bring in a Vita Zubots next season, that could have been really bad news for the Knicks and the Celtics and the Pistons and anyone competing in the East. So it's just, it's just randomness and the, the random number generator has struck again and we are here to make some sense of it. But I Don't know that there's any karmic balance to literally anything in the universe. Justin.
- [04:34]
B
Hate the players, hate the game. Right. Because this, the game is existing in a cold and nihilistic universe, it seems. And it seems that the people, not to be too like Cormac McCarthy about it, but the strong win and the weak, like, you know, the, the teams out there. That said, this is the structure. This is the way it works. We're going to work within the structure and do what we can because we're incentivized to get good players. Granted, this is the last year that we're going to see tanking. I think to this that it's. It's not going to look like this going forward. But you mentioned the Grizzlies earlier, Rob, as, as one of the down and out fan bases. Do you think that. I mean, I think I'd be feeling pretty good if I'm the Grizz. You end up at. At three and. Yeah.
- [05:11]
C
So yeah, sorry, I misspoke on the Grizz. I meant the Sacramento Kings. The Kings and the Nets being the ones that slid out of the top five.
- [05:17]
B
Yeah, yeah. There are definitely some fan bases at the bottom who are just like, we're used to being kicked. Kick us. We don't really feel anything anymore. And I kind of feel like that's where the Kings are at this point. And the Nets.
- [05:28]
A
Yeah, yeah. So they have to be among the biggest losers of the afternoon. Kings and Nets both jump out of the top four. Pacers, if we're going to go with losers, have to be the biggest loser of this event. So they slide to fifth, have to fork over their draft pick to the Clippers. And so the trade for Zubot ultimately ends up being Rob, the number five pick in this draft. A 2029 first because they still have an extra first on top of this one. Benedict Matherick, Isaiah Jackson, and I believe another future second on top of that.
- [05:59]
C
Yeah.
- [06:00]
A
You have Kevin Pritchard going on Twitter being like, you know, bad luck, which I think he misspoke and probably wanted to dash off something in order to like appease the fan base because he knew they were going to be mad. But basically like ascribing a 50, 50 chance of this happening to bad luck really just compounded, I think the misery on this one.
- [06:19]
C
Well, in, in defense of Kevin Pritchard, he did own it. It wasn't just bad luck. It was like, I took a calculated risk. This is my fault. I appreciate even that level of accountability, which I Mean, we just don't get from front offices, generally speaking, but this is a calamity to come out of a season this disastrous, one of, if not the most disastrous season in Pacers franchise history, with only a Vita Zubas to show for it. Because in particular you got like a little too cute with trying to have both things at once. I mean, this is a horrendous outcome for the Pacers. It's the kind of thing that if it had gone right, could have catalyzed their contention for the next like five years and in its current form could be the exact sort of move we talk about two seasons from now as a fundamental reason why, you know, their state, the state of the team has gone sideways or gone stale or they don't have the resources that they need. Like they really needed this pick to accelerate and kind of accentuate everything that they had working for them. And instead they're going to be a good team. We know that they were good enough to get to the NBA Finals, but they have to do that all over again against an east that's kind of constantly reforming, constantly improving. It's just brutal to see after historic losing streak upon historic losing streak from the Pacers in the regular season.
- [07:36]
B
Yeah, it's like even if they, you know, you come out of that night well, well, when they, when they decided what the protections were going to be, it kind of implied that they felt pretty good about, you know, a certain number of players, you know, the top four. It makes you, you know, it makes you wonder if maybe they would have reconsidered the types of protection that they, that they put on it or maybe put the screws of the Clippers a little bit more in terms of haggling, what that was, because, you know, I think the Pacers would have come out. It's not like they saw that top four and were like, that's all we want. I'm sure Pacers fans were like, we would have taken five. Instead you end up with nothing. It's like I'm. Maybe you would have protected it instead of five through nine. Just, I just change it in some way so that you come away with something like this outcome is, is just really brutal. And you were talking about Pritchard. It's like the Pacers don't really have a history of, you know, this tr. They don't really have a history of making these kinds of really high stakes gambles like this. They're not, they're. They are risk averse. You know, whether, you know, through the years and they don't really tank. They don't really. They usually. They're a team that historically kind of stays towards the middle and tries to make these moves. So I think for a franchise that has that history, you know, I'm sure that this is going to be just more trauma to push them back towards. Yeah, we. We were wrong to step out, away from our normal way of operating. Let's get back to what we do, which is, like, not take those kinds of risks, because this is what can happen if you do.
- [08:56]
A
Yeah. I think the big flaw in retrospect was why then why did they have to make that move at the trade deadline, considering that the back end of their season. I believe they only won four games. Like. Like, why did you need to make that at that point? Were you worried that Zubot would go elsewhere? I recognize that not only is he a potentially good fit with that team, but also his contract fixing their books nicely. But the fact that it's like two years really gave you a defined window, and that's why I was critical of it at the time. Even if this pick had gone back to the Pacers, just felt like they were riding too much on the now and adding too much risk on top of that. But then it's just like, if you just waited to find out where the pick was. If you land in the top three in your lottery odds, there is a pretty good floor of how far back you could jump if you ended up wherever the Kings were with the Nets were. Is it that much different of a situation than forking this over entirely? I still think you could have gotten Zubotch for something else. And so, man, this is really disappointing, and especially considering, like, every time I see Tyrese Halberton, seems like he still hasn't overcome the weight issues he's gotten from the medicine that he's been on from the shingles and stuff. And so, like, there's just a lot of bad vibes happening. And you were hoping after this year of Pacer's misery that, like, something good can come of it, but now it just seems pretty messy, which is unfortunate because we think this team could be pretty good next year.
- [10:13]
C
Yeah, they kind of needed a little bit of a cleansing. And look, there are enough pros on that team and really great competitors who I'm sure can shrug off a lot of what happened this season. But it would have been really nice to roll into next year with, like, a fresh, athletic, like, wing you could plug in to, you know, give you a different look for. For Aaron Neesmith. For example, give you just like a dramatically different element to your team than you had before. It would be nice to have the SOR problems where you're wondering in December will Rick Carlisle play this guy enough? And instead the problems they're going to have are does the roster have enough in general to keep up with the arms race in the East? And I think sub loser in this category too is just AIT Zubots himself, who now is going to have this deal hung around him in the way that, you know, Derek Queen does and the way that Mikhail Bridges does and the way that we talk about all of these kind of big swing acquisitions baked into your value and kind of the appraisal of those players is what you gave up to get them there. And this is going to be a part of that math going forward into perpetuity.
- [11:10]
A
Yeah, I want to talk about the Clippers on the flip side of this because obviously they're a huge winner in this, but let's go through like the top three teams because I think that's where a lot of the conversation is going to revolve around in terms of like who goes where. So the Wizards end up at one, the Jazz at two, the Grizzlies at three. Kyle, what's like your first BL. You published a mock today on the Ringer.com everyone should go and check that out. What's your first blush kind of thought on where the Wizards might go at one? Is it like the Bonsa above all? Or do you think there's any case for Peterson or even Boozer?
- [11:40]
B
I mean the consensus among NBA people and scouts that I'm in touch with is that Devonta is considered the, I mean you and you from your couch could, could come to this conclusion too. It's just that he is a less risky proposition. He doesn't have the injury problems obviously that Peterson has had. There are people who, like myself, think that Peterson is more talented, that has a higher ceiling. Like I think that some of the things he does are just at more of an elite level than, than AJ. But AJ's going to be a two way player and he's going to be really, really good. So it's not like when you choose between Peterson and aj, you're, you're choosing a lesser thing. It's like he's going to be a really good two way player, potentially all NBA, potentially first team, all NBA. He's going to be able to guard multiple positions and projects as an offensive primary. And I think for the Jazz, the thing that you know Everybody's eyes darted to immediately was the Jazz really have had machinations in place for years going back to they got his family to go from prolific prep in Napa Valley all the way down to Utah and he spends his senior year there. And it's kind of like we don't have obvious tea leaves or notes or a paper trail that shows that, oh, Ryan Smith enrolled A.J. it was just kind of like camps were kind of moving him into that space. And then he ends up at byu, which Ryan Smith and Danny Age obviously heavily connected donors and influence at byu. They wanted him. So now you're looking at this and you're thinking, how bad do they want him? How bad do they want to have this final master plan kind of reach fruition? Because it's interesting to me because in the basketball sense, Peterson fits better with the Jazz. I think. I think right off the assembly line, he would be interesting. I don't know what you guys think about from what you've seen, basketball wise, how those two teams would look. We can get more into the Wizards, but how the Jazz would look in particular immediately.
- [13:26]
C
Yeah, I think DebonSA, the talent play is clear. I would have no qualms about taking it with the number one pick in general. But for the Wizards needs, this is a team that's going to look so different than it did this year. And you already have Trey Young and Anthony Davis as the new tent poles of the, of the organization for the near term. You have Keyshawn George, you still have Alex Sar at the four. So you're going to play like a dual big lineup. You would love someone at the two who can make like impact plays in tight spaces and also potentially be like a plus plus plus shooter for you. And DebonSA isn't really those things necessarily. Like, I think he can do well when given space, at least from what I've seen. But Kyle, I mean, are you, are you so bullish on his jump shot that you would think like of a lineup that is Trey Young, whose jumper kind of comes and goes. Keshan George is probably like the one standout shooter in that group. Can Devonsa be the second best shooter in a five man NBA like starting lineup?
- [14:18]
B
Well, it's funny because this has shifted a little bit. You know, it's shifted in college and it's shifted in the NBA where it's like we were, we were really just, you know, banging our fists on the table, screaming, shooting for years there. It's like spacing, spacing, spacing, but really ramming your head with the rim pressure, it's. It feels. I'm not saying it's tilt. We've talked about this on the show a lot lately. I feel like it's just tilted a little bit towards rim pressure lately. And. And I feel like when you look at what they project to be, I think what's really interesting is they could potentially have ball handling 1 through 4. Like, solid ball handling. You think about Trae Young, and this sweetens the deal for Trey and Anthony Davis to be like, all right, we're not joining a train wreck. Like, this is kind of fun. Like, how much does Anthony Davis want to be a part of, like, a rebuild? I don't know. But if you think about, you'd have Trey Young, you'd have Keyshawn, who could slide to the one bub, can play, can do some handling reps, and then you have AJ Even Sar, every once in a while, can attack. I think that's a pretty mobile. Are they big and tough enough?
- [15:17]
C
I don't know.
- [15:18]
B
It's a question. But there's a lot of ball handling, a lot of length, a lot of disruption on that, on that squad.
- [15:23]
A
Yeah, it's interesting that the two top teams were two that swung trades for veterans, much like the Pacers did at the trade deadline. I don't think it will impact what the Wizards do at one if they think AJ Is going to be the foundation for the franchise. I think you go out and do it because you don't know how long AD and. And even Trey, even though he's just supposed to sign an extension, are going to be there long term. Right. But the Jazz, I find it's pretty interesting. Like, do they regret all of a sudden trading for Jaren Jackson despite the price being good? Because all of a sudden, you have all of this stuff in the front court. And so I like Kyle, and it sounds like you Rob as well, like Darren Peterson. And part that's probably because I haven't been in the muck of, like, what happened this season. And so I'm just looking at him more from the player perspective. But, like, if you're the Jazz and for instance, you want to move up, you want to, like, swing a deal and say, hey, we just love AJ So much. He's our guy. We'll give you Ace Bailey and something else if you just let us go up a pick like that becomes a little bit more difficult because you still have so much mass in the front court with Kessler and Jaren and Laurie Markkanen, or if you just wanted to be different Kyle, and say, like, hey, Caleb Wilson, actually, we're going to be the guys who think about this a little differently. I know he's kind of in consideration of, like, moving up here. Like, that just becomes a little bit harder because you have so much in the front court, and unlike the Wizards, like, these are guys you expect to be around. Like, Lowry just is young enough at this point, despite wasting some of his prime over the past few years, to, like, still be a part of whatever this next wave is. And so it's really complicated for the Jazz. But do you think, like, ultimately they ended up in a good spot because, like, Peterson might be the best fit, or do you think, like, they should reconsider all of this and, like, go completely outside the box? Maybe even go with a Cam, a Caleb, or somebody else?
- [17:01]
B
I think your point about them being the. The Jazz, like, their pieces in their front court, it's like, I can't imagine they would have made those moves if they had serious skepticism about Peterson and demons of fitting in with those guys. You know what I mean? I mean, granted, they. They may have had AJ on their mind when they were thinking about Ace. I think Ace and AJ could play together. I don't see that as a problem. But when you stack Ace, aj If they ended up getting aj, you know, if you stacked Ace, AJ Marketing, and then, you know, Triple J. Yeah, that's. That's a lot of size. And if you look at the way that this. This Western Conference has kind of shaken out, I mean, physically, I think that team would be able to throw punches against some of these teams. I just think I've been Justin have. And I've had a lot of conversations about this because the draft conversation moves like weather systems. It's like you can just kind of feel the pressure kind of change. And you're like, people are like, wait a minute. Do we actually like this guy?
- [17:55]
C
You could.
- [17:56]
B
You know, we just. We look at something for so long, we're like, I'm not so sure. And then you just start enter, like, creating doubt sometimes where it's not even necessary. Doubt's good for the process, but whenever it's coming to, like, Caleb Wilson versus, I know some people want to move him to two. I can't imagine Caleb climbing to two. Me, personally, sounds like Jay Williams really
- [18:14]
C
wants to move him to two. I don't know if you've seen the comps he's been throwing out for Caleb Wilson, Giannis Jermaine o', Neill, Kevin Garnett, Leonardo da Vinci, Prime, Michael Jackson, like, I genuinely like shocking stuff. I'm like, can we. Can we please pump the brakes on the.
- [18:31]
B
Richard Pryor at his apex, stand up comedy. Just every. Every guy at their apex. He. He has a lot of, like, defensive, sort of. His. His awareness defensively, I think needs to come together in a way because people will compare him to Chad. I've heard that, like, he, like a perimeter kind of version of Chet. Chet really had his. Together defensively, like, mentally by the time he hit college. Like, he was always kind of an animal on the defensive end and was very, very smart. Caleb's still kind of like, figuring out how to. How to, like, dial that process in and like, maximize all of his tools and. But he's going to have to learn to dribble the ball if he's going to be like, you know, a threat in a driving kick kind of a sense. I have a feeling they'll probably play him as like. Like a four probably who can sometimes step out and hit a corner three because the handle is going to have to come along. But overall, circling all the way back to the way these conversations go, people have wanted to bring Peterson down. I just can't quite do it because, man, I'm just so taken by his talent and sounds like Justin is, too. Rob, I don't know where you are on Peterson, but I just think I feel like somebody's going to regret passing him because he's that good.
- [19:39]
C
I mean, I think the talent is really clear. I'm still trying to talk myself into him a little bit, and I think this is the sort of context where it just makes too much sense. Right? Like a team like the Jazz or the Wizards who have such a distinct need for these kinds of scores, you just bet on the talent and you figure out the rest later. But there. There are times with Peterson, and some of this is like, I'm pulling strictly from the college tape. Kyle versus you have, like, the high school, like, longer track record of seeing him as at his, like, athletic best that I want to see and believe in that version of Darren Peterson as much as anything. And I think the situations in both Washington and in Utah could potentially bring that out of him. There's just so much surrounding talent. There's so much surrounding defense, I think in both places that can, like, give him good cover, give him, like, a good structured roster to work with. I would be really excited about either of these places for him.
- [20:28]
A
Move to three and four now. So the Grizzlies ended up at three. The, the Bulls ended Up in four. One of the big winners for the Bulls, I think, was Tony Kucho just showing up in the. In the sunglasses, very much like divorced. I got a stylist energy going on there, which I think helps bring in this new Bulls era. With Bryson Graham taking over there, you
- [20:50]
B
think that went into his thought process for the outfit. He's like, we're new era. We're divorced from. For Ark. From Archeros.
- [20:57]
A
Something had to be happened to wear sunglasses indoors in one. But if you're Tony Ku coach doing that, I feel like it's. It's very much a stretch. So Cam, I think, is assumed to go to the Grizz at 3. I think this is where the Caleb conversation gets a little bit more interesting because the Grizzlies do have that sort of wild, untamed energy, like, and they're starting more from ground zero, as opposed to where maybe even the Bulls would be, where they act. At very least you have 10 polls in place. We'll see if Graham wants to keep, like, giddy or Bazealous or really go forward with the previous vision. But, like, if you wanted to spice things up, I think the Grizzlies could go with Caleb. Do you think that would be in play, Kyle?
- [21:39]
B
I think anything's. Everything's in play. Because I don't know that they. You know, we were joking in the. In the mock draft about them with this rebuild. It's like, I don't really know that this rebuild has taken any kind of a shape yet where we're like, we're plugging in here. We're plugging in here. It's like, I always kind of start with mock dress, where I'm like, to. To be in the mindset of, like, we're thinking about fit has to be a pretty special situation. I feel like I. I feel like I'm philosophically kind of like, unless I think it's going to cause a major problem with another player that I have that. That. That I believe in, I'm going to take the best guy. So I think for them, whether they think that that's Cam or Caleb, I had. I mocked Cam. To them, my thinking there was that he's just somebody that can be this. He descends everything into order. When you put Cam Boozer on your team, because he does so many things, because he's so set, steady, because he's such a winner. And I think that, like, he. He fits them philosophically in terms of the physicality, the toughness, the way that he plays. Not that. Not that it really, you know, how many. I would ask you guys, how many, like, franchises really have a personality that they stick to? I know, like, the Nuggets are like, we run and gun because of the altitude.
- [22:47]
C
The Pistons, quickly.
- [22:48]
B
I would decide there. Yeah, Pistons historically tough. I mean, I don't know.
- [22:52]
A
Miami. Yeah, same thing.
- [22:54]
B
Yeah. So. But the other thing here is just that for them, organizationally, this feels like an opportunity to like, just do a swish and spit for the way that they're, they're. The way that their leadership culture, kind of trickle down thing has gone in the past few years. And you're just going to eradicate all of that. If you drive Kambuzer, it's just like, all right, we're. We have a quiet confidence. We're going to be good. They're going to be huge. I can't imagine dealing with him and Zach Edie if they put them next to each other. I could see him taking Caleb, but for me, I feel like the culture sort of thing that's going to spin them into. Into motion would be tanking. Kamboozer, but they can't go wrong, man. Really?
- [23:30]
C
Do y' all think the combination of, you know, the Grizz moving into the top four, and I would say specifically the Nets and the Kings bouncing out of it, does that accelerate the John Morant part of this conversation at all? Cause I would think it would be. Even though we're talking about the Grizzlies taking bigs, mostly just like a clean slate opportunity, you have two teams in Brooklyn and Sacramento that are going to be desperate to do something. The Nets don't even own their 2027 pick, and yet they don't. They're no closer to getting the one thing they distinctly need, which is like some real scoring pop outside of Michael Porter Jr. And a point guard who feels like a full time point guard, perhaps despite everyone attempting to do that there. Like, do you think we're any closer to a John Morant deal as a result of where the Grizzlies ended up?
- [24:12]
A
I would say yes, if only because the trade deadline and him barely showing up post, that I think is an indication that they probably tried to trade him and actually extracting anything of value probably is now defunct. We're probably looking at more of a Trey Young situation. And if anything, I would assume that they could even get potentially less value. Maybe they have to give up something
- [24:32]
C
because CJ McCollum just, you know, almost bailed out the Hawks. Let's put some respect on his particular playoff resume.
- [24:40]
A
Yeah, let's see if he ends up on the roster next year. But it was a nice moment for C.J. but like, he has two years on that deal, whereas Trey obviously has the option. He's going to opt into it and. But like, he has more of a longer Runway there. I think the only good thing that happened for the Grizzlies when it comes to Morant is the fact that there were some other teams that probably also didn't move up as much as they would have liked. And there's going to be a reek of desperation for someone. I mean, the Nets, first and foremost, would they be willing to take a swing just to get a star in the building and just to have something with the. The Heat, who I believe reportedly like, sniffed around Morant at the trade deadline, one more year off the contract. Maybe they don't get into Giannis. We could talk about Giannis later because it seems like that's heating up as well. Like might they want to do something and then Morant is just the guy that they could have for that reason. Maybe. But otherwise, I feel like the Grizzlies, Kyle, have almost already, like, moved on spiritually and I feel like Cam is. Might be the indication of that because he seems like the more steady Marcus Soul type that I think could be like a foundation of stability when they very much need that.
- [25:45]
C
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- [26:17]
B
it's kind of funny. You were talking about the Heat, like, sniffing around him and I was just like, why would they do that? But it's like the Heat are sort of like the Betty Ford clinic for superstars in a way where they're like, we can take whatever volatility is going on with you guys, with you. And. And you know, we. I mean, with the Jimmy Butler situation who came in with just a trail of broken hearts behind him and they were just like, we'll figure it out. And they did. So, I mean, that's an interesting. That's an interesting part there. But I mean, if, if the Grizzlies, to speak to your point, Rob I mean if the Grizzlies had fallen to four or maybe even five where they were in the position to, to like I think the fact that they got in the position to get one of these two Bigs, I don't think it's necessarily that they came in thinking like we're and I'm speaking for them as if I know this, but just based on what I understand, the fact that they got in the position to take these bigs is what changed the conversation because if they were at 5, I think that the like John Morant succession sort of conversation probably would have been in play because there are so many good guards there in our mock I. Since they did get Cam, I just was like, okay, well there's a couple more guys that are later like a book. Okorie is a guy for Stanford who I think you would get a big kick out of if you even did just a, a simple light YouTube dive on this guy. He's really, really something. He's so, so fast. I've said he's like Devin Hester playing the point guard possession position. Okay. If you put him next. Well, if you put him, if you put him next to the big long physicality that they have, I think that he would really, really be an interesting guy. But I do think I kind of agree with Justin on it seems like jaw is going to end up being just offloaded somewhere instead of. Because it's hard to imagine who the suit, the aggressive suitors who are like I think that we can port you over and just make you the center of what we're trying to do. I can't really think of many teams that would want to do that.
- [27:59]
A
Yeah. So the Bulls end up at 4. Some ethical losing finally working its way out here. So congrats to the Bulls. They love big guys who are skilled who could do a little bit of everything. They might play an entire unit of power forwards who could dribble, pass and shoot but just lucky do a little bit of everything.
- [28:16]
B
But a lot of, a lot of things they can't do. It's like a weird like they took a single. It's like they got these really weird paradox stars together. It's like how work. It's exciting but it doesn't quite work. Right.
- [28:28]
A
Like the NBA jam bars are there. To what level are each of them. Who knows. But pretty big windfall for them because what they need is just like any sort of influx of, of high end talent.
- [28:39]
C
Well and what they need is like one thing to go right. Like even that in and of itself, symbolically, I think is important for the Bulls.
- [28:47]
A
So Kyle has Caleb going there and then the draft gets pretty interesting. So we talked about the Clippers 5 is where the next tier seemingly starts. And so the Clippers are an interesting situation because they just traded for Darius Garland. You would assume that he's going to be with them for a little while here, but the next tier is practically all guards, as Kyle can attest to. Do you worry at this point, Kyle, considering that like this might be one of their last like, like top five picks for a while here, considering all the picks they have out and the fact that this team is going to be competitive as long as they keep some of the guys around. If Kawaii is going to be here, we could talk about that. But like Garland plus the stuff that they have I think is going to be pretty good regardless. Do you worry about fit with Garland or fit in general at this point or are you just thinking, let's just make the biggest play. Let's go for someone like Keaton Wagler, who might be the best talent but is going to sacrifice some defense if you're going to pair him with Darius Garland.
- [29:41]
B
I think that the first thing that I think about when I look at this roster is knowing what we know about Darius Garland. If you enter into the next few years thinking this guy's going to be a core piece of whatever it is that we're trying to do and you look at the west and how absolutely brutal like we've been watching these playoffs, are you really going to go in with that mindset? Look at what we're seeing on TV and draft. I love Keaton Wagler. I think he's a good pick in a lot of different situations with his size, his fluidity, on or off ball, shoots the shit out of the ball. I know Rob was swooning over his mechanics when he just watched him for a couple minutes, but I'm just kind of.
- [30:16]
C
He's wispy.
- [30:17]
B
I'm like, can you. A lot of these guys that you know, if you look at, but the ones that aren't defensively challenged are a little harder to find. You think about like Michael Brown, he can, he's really can move on and off the ball, can shoot it. Wispy. A defensive liability. How do you avoid drafting another defensive liability? Because to me that would be a little bit of a non starter. I went away from consensus a little bit there and said that, that I think that Braden Buries would be a good running mate for him because he can cross switch and guard point guards. He's not a liability defensively. But to me, because that dissonance exists, that suggests to me that there's going to be an even bigger move that they're going to make. And I would just throw that to you all, agree or disagree?
- [30:57]
C
I mean, they still have a lot to figure out. I do agree that in their current form, the Clippers have a lot going for them. And frankly, for a team that we put dead last in the young core rankings, speaking of flux that they've been able to cobble together over a course of months, like the number five pick, Darius Garland, Ben Matheran, who's going to be a restricted free agent, they're going to have to figure out what to do with him. Jana Kona Niederhauser has been one of the big risers over the back half of the season. All of a sudden there is like a kind of a youth movement happening there that's really important for them. But, yeah, they still need to sort out a lot of what's going on with their team. And I agree with the kind of the fundamental tension that you guys are bringing up with Garland, which is you want to rely on him, you want him to be a cornerstone of your franchise. But the combination of the fact that he can be exploited on defense and that he gets injured so frequently makes you inclined to invest in other guards to cover for you when he can't play, either literally like in a game or in a moment. And that's what gets you into like the we're going to bring in Al Horford to back up Joel Embiid kind of thinking. It's like you, you have to be duplicative because of who Darius Garland is, and yet you get punished for over investing in too many of the similar kinds of resources.
- [32:05]
A
So Darius Garland is 26 years old.
- [32:07]
C
Yep.
- [32:07]
A
Which is wild. Like, he hasn't even really hit his prime at this point and he's already in the midst of his second contract. Having said that, he only has two more years on the books after this one. Maybe they try to sign him to an extension, they go forward with him. But I'm of the mindset if you luck into this pick, especially considering all the murkiness with Kawhi at this point, we should note that this somehow we got to the draft lottery and the Clippers still have not received a punishment for all the aspiration mess. I don't know at what point this is going to fucking come down, but this is getting absolutely ridiculous. But I do wonder if you say to yourself, just maybe we think the timeline a little differently now. Maybe we actually look to repackage Garland if it comes to it. If he can't play with Wagler. And we think Waggler is like a potential star. I swing for the fences with this because like they're really only beholden to whatever timeline they decide. And I just don't know if Garland ultimately is the type of ceiling raiser that you just move heaven and earth for. I think he's a very good player who, if he ends up getting over this toe history or toe issues because he had several of them on both feet. I just don't know like what ceiling you have there because the defensive concerns are going to mount the further you get into the playoffs. And so he might be better off playing for a good team, hoping to get into the play in or just the playoff mix. And if I'm thinking long term and I have this pick, I'm like, let's, let's go for it. And I actually, I love Wagler like you guys. I don't know Kyle, if you think he could be a potential star in this league, especially considering some of the pedigree and he just all of a sudden just shot out of the rocket. So we don't have a, a ton of sample of thinking about him in these terms. If you think that I go for that, I swing for the fences and go for Wagler and, and move Kawhi and Garland if it comes to that.
- [33:45]
C
Yeah. But is Wagler that guy? Like, everything Kyle said about the wispiness is so true. And if you just want to take it from like a 10,000 foot perspective, Darius Garland's made two all star teams. Do we think Wagler will over under two all star teams? Like where, where would you put the line for him? Is that a realistic expectation? And granted that's not talking about who he is in a playoff setting and how exploitable he is, but, but just in terms of what kind of player he can be, that would even be asking a lot.
- [34:10]
B
Yeah, Wog. I mean, they're. Wagler is ahead of Garland, I think is like a ball screen operator at the same age. But they're just kind of different because, you know, Garland just kind of slices and dices you with like dribble separation and speed. Wagler's kind of a technician and it's kind of like he's very, you know, very much about like his mechanics and his process of, of, of meticulously kind of working his way to where it's not that he's a bad athlete, but, I mean, of course, the counter to that is he, like, is six. Six, and he barely has dunked in his organized career, so maybe I'll just kind of walk that one back a little bit. But he. Can he be a superstar? It's. It's like he has the tools to. To become a pretty. A pretty tough, like, primary guy who can kind of toggle between a primary or a secondary creator. I. I struggle with Garland. I'm just kind of like, if we're trying to paint the masterpiece here, we're like, is he, again, just kind of looking at the landscape and what it is you got to beat? He's 26. You know, he's got to beat the guys that are there. Can Darius Garland be the center that. If I had skepticism about that, I would tilt more towards what Justin is saying here and just being like, let's just take the best timeline that we have. We have a chance to pivot our timeline. How often do you have a chance to do that, period? So maybe that. But maybe that would suggest that they go towards. They like Wagler, from what I understand.
- [35:28]
A
Any other winners here? Before we flip to the losers, I have Derek Queen written down because just landing the eighth spot, as opposed to one of the prime talents at the very least reflects better upon him. Now, did the Pelicans have any incentive over the back of the season to tank as aggressively some of these other ones? No. And thus they probably. They, like, they affected the outcome of this in a way that at the very least removes some of the stain. There's still some there, but, like, good for Derek Queen no longer has to deal with the fact that, like, they traded Caleb Wilson or Cam Boozer for, like, just him. Well, let's not get him.
- [36:05]
C
Let's not count our chickens. Like, whoever they take with that pick could also end up being awesome. It doesn't. They don't have to be the top five pick in a highly touted draft. It could just be a really good player that also punishes the Pelicans just with their mere existence.
- [36:19]
A
Any other winners you got here?
- [36:21]
C
I think we hit the big ones. I will say, just to circle back to the Jazz for a second, I mean, how. How good do we think they can be, like, in just, like, straight up next season, rolling in with the number two pick and the players that they've already brought in, Jared included, at the deadline? Like, is that a play in caliber team? Is that some. A team that's threatening for the six seed, like, where do you guys see the Jazz?
- [36:44]
B
It's interesting because they, The Jazz and the Wizards kind of mirror each other because they traded for experience pieces that we haven't gotten to see mesh with their young guys, and we're just kind of like, waiting like this. On paper, both of these teams project to be pretty. Pretty fun. I mean, both of them, even if they don't win a lot of games, it's like the league pass appeal. I already know I'm going to be considering them, but I kind of think so. I mean, it's Keonta, Keonte, George, speaking of which, is here. I saw him last night, but I guess he rep. Did he rep the Jazz at the draft loss? Is that right? Yeah. How much? Well, I would. I would say how much do you guys really believe in Keonte? Do we think, does he need to make another leap for this to be a serious thing? Kind of look at them. I'm like, who? Really? Do they have enough facilitators? I know we have guys that have, like, responsive skill sets that are pretty good. Like, I trust Lowry, I trust Triple J. Is the depth going to be in terms of their. Their playmakers? Like, now? Let's assume that they add Darren to that. I mean, what do you all think about that? Yeah, I mean, it's. It is. It does. I'm just kind of processing it in real time here. I mean, I. I could see it being pretty fun. Yeah.
- [37:54]
A
Yeah. I mean, if he steps in and is even, like, just reasonably good at doing that. Like, they just need as much ball handling and, like, facilitation as possible because they just have so much talent, especially in the front court. I think we're setting the bar too low with playing. Like, I think that they can easily just vault into the top six next year. Like, we all just assume, like, oh, the top six right now in the west is so good. Like, things happen, injuries happen, offseasons happen and disrupt things. I just think they not only have a lot of talent and a lot of, like, shooting talent on this roster, but they also have an identity and they have depth, like, even in the back half of the season. I just was remarking on, like, how all of these recent draft picks all of a sudden get to play because their first wave of guys are out. And so, like, if someone goes down, if they need to cycle through, if they need to load management, because we know we love to do that in Utah, like, they just have the bodies to trudge through the regular season in a way. That like a top heavy team like the Lakers are currently we'll see over the off season, like just aren't. And so like I could see them stacking wins. Would they be my pick to like make the Western Conference finals? No. But like as we've seen, the regular season is such a different battlefield and it feels like the Jazz would have the requisite arms in order to go through that and win 45, 50 win sort of season.
- [39:12]
C
I mean that's what it'll take, right? If you're talking about them as a team that could be in the top six, the bar for that is basically 50 wins in the west. And that's where it might be just like a little too steep for what they can be. But it's the kind of thing that we saw the Pistons do right. In terms of transitioning very quickly from a low win total season completely exploding. And the reason they were able to do it is because their defense was so regular season rock solid. And that's, that's kind of the question for the Jazz, who have been, I don't know, just woeful defensively. Year upon year upon year. They've had super inconsistent personnel. They've had no motivation to actually win or be good on that side of the ball. But if they can be a really good defensive team, I think that papers over a lot of the questions you might have about the collective playmaking of this group. Like then they all of a sudden have something they can hang their hat on. They can get through the season, they can rack up those wins you're talking about JV and end up with I think 45, like pretty easily given the talent that they have at their disposal.
- [40:05]
B
Well, let's draw the line here. I think that that's relevant to you, you two and your and your mid off. I mean let's draw the line at 45 over under the the sun's trailblazer. Are they better than that cluster? Are they above it or are they below it?
- [40:18]
A
I would say better. Without knowing how this is actually going to play out. We're just doing paper Tigers at this point.
- [40:25]
C
Sure. How about this win total wise Wizards or Jazz for next season?
- [40:31]
A
Interesting.
- [40:33]
C
You know, easier competition in the east perhaps, but the Jazz have a lot going for them.
- [40:39]
A
Jazz, if only I. I feel like the Wizards could take a nice little jump here, but they're still relying on way more youth than the Jazz. Like the Jazz, like most of these guys are established. Jaren Jackson has been in all star games. Like Laura Markkanen is like Incinerated for all NBA, like, just a couple of years ago. Like, there's a lot of stuff to work with here that they could just roll off the the lot and just immediately be good in the way that the Wizards can.
- [41:03]
B
Yeah, and their hypothetical is a little stronger than Washington's. Like, it's a hypothetical that we're going to see Trey and AD together. I feel like we're for sure going to see the Jazz in the form that we're speculating about. Right.
- [41:14]
C
I suspect that that's true. I mean, look, some of. Some of the absences for the Jazz have been legitimate injury, and some of them have been legitimate injuries stretched out because give Lowry market and all the time to rehab that he needs. But like, Walker Kessler's also be getting hurt pretty consistently. Like, that's a real thing that's been happening over the course of when he has played in these last couple years. Granted, now they have the new and improved Yousef Nurkic backing him up. Maybe that's not a problem. Maybe you just kind of plug and play or you move Jaren over to the five and you do whatever you can. They have those options in a way that they just never did before. So I'm. I'm with you that they feel a little more established and a little more ready. But the volatility of the Wizards, I can't lie, is very enticing to me.
- [41:53]
B
Well, I'll answer the question. I think that they could be better than the Suns and the Blazers. I think it's possible.
- [41:59]
C
But do you think it's likely?
- [42:01]
B
They have more talent, I think, than either team.
- [42:04]
A
I agree. And the Suns don't really have much of a move. We had the nice story season for the Suns. We're not going to get to the other side of that, where it's like, why are we paying Booker 60 million just to be above average? And where's the next phase of this? Unless Jalen Green just completely changes who he is as a player and is much more consistent. And all this other stuff that we've been saying for years about him, like, where's the next phase going to come from?
- [42:29]
C
And what about when the Blazers trade for Giannis? You know, isn't that going to change everything?
- [42:35]
A
We've talked about this. I want somebody else.
- [42:39]
C
Just out on Giannis.
- [42:40]
B
I want somebody else. Listen to him.
- [42:43]
C
We want somebody else.
- [42:44]
A
You know, I will say, just as a footnote to the wizard situation, like, had they not gotten the top pick, the Denny thing would have loomed over them. Pretty, pretty much their entire run here. But now it's like, oh, it's fine. We, we. This is the type of thing where we couldn't have done because we would have been too okay with Denny writing this. But now it's just like, all right, let's forget about it.
- [43:05]
C
Well, now you can. Now you can see the vision, the long term vision of the Denny Avdia deal.
- [43:09]
A
There you go. All right. Why don't we take a quick break, come back, talk about some of these losers. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA playoffs are here and everything's on the line. Every possession matters, every bucket swings the game and tonight is your shot to boost your bet. That's right. All customers get a profit boost tonight. So when the moment hits, your win hits bigger and FanDuel is giving you better payouts on same game parlays all NBA playoffs long. We're looking at the slate going forward. I like the wolves in the next game getting 10 and a half against the Spurs. Wemby is going to be back in that game and so spurs are probably going to be out for revenge. I don't know, ten and a half's a lot of points. Maybe I'm a sucker, but I like those points. So give me ten and a half from the Wolves in the next game. Lock in your bets, boost your odds and make the playoffs. Pay off with FanDuel, official sports betting partner of the NBA. Head to FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to get started. FanDuel. Play your game 21 select states or 18/DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profits. Boost tokens. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 1-888-7897 777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenecticut all right, on the loser side, we kind of talked about this. Necks and kings. I think two of the biggest ones, the kings in particular, I mean they're, they just can't help themselves. You know, they just won too many games at the end there. I, I think for them to fall is low as they did in this. I just, I just don't see where the reprieve comes from for this franchise. And they, more than any other team in the league needs the help. They need the government intervention to come in and be like here, have this because you need it. Whereas the Nets, at the very least you have the market, organization and a front office that has built success from low ends of the draft. Like yes, this is bad. But like, I have some belief in the institution. The Kings just need help and they didn't get it.
- [45:07]
C
I think having belief in the Nets as an institution is giving that franchise an awful lot of credit.
- [45:12]
B
I was gonna say, wow, you belief in them, really?
- [45:16]
A
Okay. I have a belief in their ability to mine things from the back half of the first round and turn things into something that were nothing before. Jared Allen, Caris Lavert, d' Angelo Russell, even on his second deal. Like, they built a playoff team with virtually nothing, despite the fact that they were in purgatory from the KG deals. I'm not saying they're going to be anything great, which is a whole other story. And why is that franchise still there when they don't have a fan base in Brooklyn to begin with, all that other stuff. But the Kings, like, the Kings need something. They can't even do that. They're jettisoning like very good players in order to aspire to some like, toughness, sort of ethos with Doug Christie and whatnot. It's just. It doesn't make any sense.
- [45:58]
C
Yeah, I agree that I do have a little bit more faith in terms of the people making decisions for the Nets, like Sean Marks, again, whatever you may think of him and some of the mistakes that he's made identifying that sort of talent. You've pointed out, Justin, I'm with you. Jordy Fernandez. We're still kind of seeing who he can be as a developmental coach. That was his reputation coming up, the assistant ranks. Like, he clearly has like a track record of doing that. But doing it as an NBA head coach, where you get to set all the priorities is a very different thing. I think we saw like some marginal improvement from some of their rookies over the course of the year, but I wouldn't say they had any real breakouts. Like, there wasn't anybody who popped on that roster in a way that you would say that is a Kenny Atkinson era, net style success story.
- [46:39]
A
Yeah, just. Just to be clear, like, I don't think he's Greg Popovich and like, this is going to be the next Spurs. Like, I think relative to the. The Kings, like, they are on a different level.
- [46:48]
C
If the bar is the Kings, yes, we all believe in the next.
- [46:52]
B
Yeah, it's like saying, yeah, we're both in this dungeon and you know, both of us are starving, but I have a couple crumbs in my hand that I could eat. And the guy over on the other side of the cell has nothing to do with. Yeah, he's like Chewing on his hand, I guess is the difference between the Kings and the. And the Nets. I think the Nets are in the position to take a player that suits kind of what their little solar system on offense needs defensively is a whole other conversation as we talked about with the Clippers, kind of when they're thinking about it, but I have them taking a cuff here because he just feels like a natural fit. Who could. I'm lower on a cuff than other people are, but I could see where you would look at a Michael Porter Jr. And you'd look at just kind of the other pieces that they have with, with Noah Clowney and everything. He makes sense to me. So I don't know how much. Yeah, I just. But I mean, who else do they have? The thing is they drafted a bunch of like non scoring playmakers last year and I think if you put another guy who can kind of assert himself and bring some kind of balance the way they play, maybe some of those guys will make a little bit more sense. I don't know. Really. They just need like what is, what's the, what's the lowest level of like survival there or just satisfaction they're willing to accept? Like if one of those guys hits, does it make it worth it? Like, I mean what, what are we, what are we aiming for now?
- [48:09]
C
It's a good question for all of us. What is the lowest level of satisfaction in our lives we're willing to accept?
- [48:16]
A
It's pretty low, I'll be honest. I mean. Yes. To your. Your point. Yes, because a lot of those picks, like it gets derided now but like they were pretty mid to low first. I don't think a lot of like if we were just put those guys on other teams, there would be high expectations for them. But because they just, just decided to draft five guys, it was just such a weird outlier situation. I guess that is true because a lot of the past first guards that they have, Saraf and Jagor, like they're bigger and so do Acuff's defensive concerns. Are they a little bit more mass there? And so maybe that was the grand vision there. It's just like we could take a risk on a scoring guard.
- [48:54]
B
I'm. I'm not thinking a cuff is masked by Jagor and I did. I just, I think they should have just taken Jagor and Danny Wolf. I didn't like Tre Ore, I didn't like Seraf. I was, I. That they should have, they shouldn't have taken all of those guys. I thought that was kind of obvious. But no, I don't, I don't think, I don't think anybody's being like protected going into the Brooklyn defensive situation.
- [49:13]
C
I also think, frankly, granted, I am not in the Kyle levels of, of tape exploration with Darius Acuff. I don't think there's enough masking in the world that can hide that guy defensively. Like, he is a truly horrible defender and so small to a degree that. Kyle, I'm really going to need you live tweeting from the combine measurements today. If that man is 6:3, I, like, I could be convinced of anything at that point. Like, truth will truly have like crumbled into dust.
- [49:41]
B
I've stood in his vague vicinity before. Yeah, you know, you know, you know, your boy. I'm, I'm, I'm 6:1. Maybe, maybe we get some millimeters and centimeters out of that. I'm not six two. We were, I mean we were the same height.
- [49:56]
C
So I, I don't, I'm surprised that even that like I would have, I would have pegged like my concerns with him as a scorer are like, I'm just getting like big Johnny Flynn kind of vibes from this whole experience.
- [50:06]
B
He's a better, way better shooter than Johnny Flynn, but he's.
- [50:09]
C
I don't know, guys. I'm just.
- [50:10]
B
He's a great.
- [50:11]
C
Nervous. I'm very nervous about it.
- [50:13]
A
You can't measure heart, man.
- [50:15]
C
That's what they said about Johnny Flynn. This is the problem.
- [50:18]
A
Was Johnny Flynn much of a. Of a score? He was more of like a, a point guard type, I think. I just think like a scoring.
- [50:25]
C
But he was a big, like a big time shot maker in big moments in the way that a cuff is purported to be.
- [50:31]
A
Acuff's like offensive production was literally historic in college. Like it was like him and Cam Boozer like breaking efficiency records. And so like he's on a completely separate level. Are there going to be complications? Certainly. But I also think at this tier, Kyle, like, I think you're really just kind of betting on which thing like you really want to prioritize here. I think the question would be like, is Michael Brown enough of a star bet and does he have potentially the sort of package that Acuff might always have something of like, to, to work over because of the defensive concerns?
- [51:05]
B
Yeah, Mikel is another one. When I was speaking about like sort of the weather systems that kind of come. It's also sort of always. I always reference the. The girl tries kombucha meme of the like disgusted face. Maybe. No. Disgusted. I don't know. Like that's kind of been the process for Mikel Brown where I think people watched the way this. He came in and people, you know, saw him at the hoop summit. People were like, this dude's kind of like he and Nate Ament were kind of in that top five of conversation. And then he just had a weird year. He has a back injury. He came in, there was like argument about where the back injury came from. But then I think people are kind of going back and watching the tape and being like, if we can kind of figure out what's going on with that man. He's so kinetic and slinky and quick with the ball. He can make live dribble passes, he can shoot on the move. He is a. He had a growth spurt. That's another thing he's. You want to talk about guys, how they measure this will be. He put out a video of him measuring himself. Always dubious of that. But he, he's somebody that grew to 6 foot 5, at least 6 foot 4, right in that range. So he's got some size. I wouldn't be shocked if the nets took a swing at him. Also if you kind of weigh he and a cuff against each other and just think like, I don't know that there is a huge difference between these two. Mikel's a lot bigger. He's also a little bit better, like you know, creating deflections and things like that. I, I could see Mikel climbing as high as he could be in conversation for six, maybe even five. But I would say six is probably where it starts.
- [52:26]
A
Yeah, Brown's one. If we're talking about measurements, I do wonder if he like slots in. You see how big he is. And just like the creativity. If whatever messiness at Louisville existed. And the farther we get into this draft process, those things tend to like be tamped down and people start to really believe in their convictions over like certain like weird things. In college, like I would draft him over Acuff for that reason, just because of all that stuff. Stuff. But I guess we'll see. Any other losers on the board here?
- [52:54]
B
You guys want to mention Rob made Bobs and Doug nut face when I was talking about Michael Brown. He 100% had no clue what I was talking about.
- [53:02]
C
I rarely do I, to be honest with you. But I'm here, I'm here to learn.
- [53:06]
B
I'm here to let go.
- [53:08]
A
We should just start like inserting made up players just to see if anyone will catch it.
- [53:14]
C
Unfortunately, I won't you know, you're just going to embarrass me in front of all of our friends, and I don't appreciate it.
- [53:19]
A
I have as a loser playing the audio of the studio analysts over the loudspeakers when every player that they're talking about is in attendance. It was just incredibly uncomfortable.
- [53:30]
C
You don't like that.
- [53:32]
A
It just like, it reminds me of just like watching someone talk about you to you. Like, it's just like, what do you do with your hands? Luckily, all those guys were very positive. There wasn't someone being like, fuck, Caleb Wilson. Can't fucking play for shit. It was actually like, like going over the top. But, like, man, that could have been incredibly uncomfortable. If any of those guys didn't like any of the many, many prospects and people and their families in attendance there.
- [53:55]
C
Well, that's why they're pros. And also while they're comparing everyone to Giannis and Kevin Garnett, you know, it's. Hope springs eternal in that particular room. But I do think you need some kind of omniscient narrator to say, okay, because this pick went here. The Hawks get it or the Pelicans get it, or the Thunder get it or the Clippers get it. You know, like, I think you or you do need that sort of navigation in the live set setting, I think.
- [54:17]
B
Yeah. Not everybody is tracking all of that stuff in real time, like, the dorks are. So I think that's a help that's helpful to have that narrator doing that. But I had this idea, and there's dibs on this because I haven't done it yet. So I'm on the record. I wanted to do a thing where I sat down with a prospect and a third party, read my scouting report while we both sat there. And I had to, basically. So, like, even the negative things, and I just have to kind of sit there as they hear all the things I said and then, like, let them confront me. I really wanted to do this with Derek Queen last year, but I don't know, it's. I. I think that that could work, right? You talk about the awkward. That would really go the other way and dig in on some awkward tension, you know? Own. Own.
- [54:57]
C
Your scouting report, Kyle Man Eats would be Our most watched YouTube series of all time.
- [55:02]
B
Like, people would completely. What I wanted to call oh, out
- [55:05]
C
in scouting is nice.
- [55:06]
A
He's just giving the Dylan Harper surprise Pikachu face the entire time. Like, I can't believe I said that. All right, why don't we take one more break? Come Back talk about the NBA playoffs, which were ongoing.
- [55:21]
B
This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime.
- [55:23]
A
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Visit Amazon.comprime to find millions of items
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- [55:53]
A
All right, we're back and we're proud to say that this segment is sponsored by Ferrero. Let's go. We're gonna speed run through every series on the board here. We should probably start with the Knicks because that series is no longer on the board. The Knicks Knicks 40 advance. So they close out the Hawks Rob with 144 points. They close out the Sixers with 140. Holy shit. The Knicks are on another level.
- [56:20]
C
Yeah, the only thing keeping them from putting up I believe the three most dominant individual games of the playoffs was like garbage time wasn't interesting enough for them to actually do it. They are ridiculous. And as far if we want to spread around positives about the Knicks, like we could be here all day. I think it's been amazing to see not just how great they've been overall, but how comprehensively great. It's like every person in the rotation pretty much is hitting a really high level at basically the same time. Very exciting to see. For me in particular, watching the real version of Mikhail Bridges return right in front of our eyes has been a delight. He was amazing defensively in the series against the Sixers. We were talking all throughout about Tyrese Maxey not being able to find the right gear of assertiveness to his scoring game. Mikhail's a huge reason why that was the case. But beyond that, just seeing a version of Mikhail Bridges that is driving again and being aggressive, looking for his own offense again. He had 12 points in game four. Eight of them came off the drive. Two of them came off a cut. Two of them came off an offensive rebound. Like was not the guy standing in the corner waiting for Jalen Brunson to pass him the ball. He was actively participating in his in the rescue of his own offensive game. And I love seeing this version of Mikhail. He is just night and day from the guy we saw certainly in the last couple months of the regular season. But even the first half of that series against the Hawks. He was just lost in the wilderness and he is found once again.
- [57:41]
B
No, I think, I think the thing you said about where he's catching it and how he's catching it in relation to how Jalen Brunson is playing, that's the ding, ding, ding moment for me because I think the thing that pivoted the way that this is going and we talked a lot about how well the shot making is saving the Knicks. It's like they do kind of have this devil's on the shoulder of like they can fall into the predictability of Jaylen, go do something. And I think whenever they add that second silo of Carl Anthony Towns, not necessarily just being a, like, go get mine guy, but being a full blown fulcrum. And if, when you think about him as the. Carl's always been able to pass, if you go back to Minnesota, like he, he always had the ability to play that way. And whenever he taps into that and buys into that, I think he becomes a different player. And that has a ripple effect off to, to a Mikhail Bridges, who you mentioned the defensive thing. I mean like when, when he's playing the Sixers, he's set up to. He's such a great chaser against like guys who want to get away and you know, similar to how like Jay McDaniels was affecting, like Jamal Murray, guys can be lured into, you know, situations that bring out their strengths. For Mikhail, I think on defense, this matchup just got him into a defensive rhythm. But I also think the way that Cat has changed the way that he's playing has really been sort of the, the turning point to make the Knicks look like what we wanted them to look like, what they've on paper projected to look like. And it's why I picked them to go to the Finals. It's been really wild to, to see.
- [58:59]
A
Here's the question, I think, because I think we would all agree that they're probably the favorite to come out of the east at this point. So making the finals would be just a fucking boon for that team, for that franchise who hasn't been back for so long. Do we think that they can go even farther because they have been so absolutely gangbusters and for now like two weeks have been playing just absolutely lights out. Are you starting to level them up even from that already high bar, or does it end at Finals? Do you say like a Thunder, a Spurs? Any team that comes out the west is going to beat them regardless.
- [59:29]
C
That's where I kind of want to see what this next round looks like, I would say, especially if it's the Pistons matchup. Right. Like for one, just getting back to the fireworks of them in the playing in the playoffs against each other after last year. I'm here for it, but I want to see how this version of Kat that Kyle is talking about, who is playing the best basketball of basically his entire career at the moment. I want to see how flustered he is with a really intense defensive opponent. And that's something that the Knicks haven't really run up against yet. Right. Like, the whole idea of playing against a team like the Thunder especially is. Yeah, you may have the top down Fulcrum and Nikola Jokic, but we're going to just hound him, we're going to foul him, we're going to be incredibly physical. We're going to force him into mistakes. Towns has been just like peering down over everybody, dotting passes, making really smart plays. But what happens when the level of physicality is upped even another level? And I think that's what the Thunder and the spurs both do so well. And it's why I'm kind of like a little wait and see as far as who they might be in the NBA Finals. But they, they have earned every benefit of the doubt. They've been the single best team in the playoffs overall, even relative to the Thunder and the spurs and Cat and his Ascendants is a huge reason why. But it's also like, I just want to see like a little bit more before I start punching their ticket against the best teams in the league.
- [60:41]
B
Yeah, I think the boss battle has to. We need to see one more boss battle. I think. And I think what you're talking about like the, the, the Hawks obviously are. They're going to be in the mode of trying to add to, you know, add a defensive anchor. They still need to answer that question for their roster. They're not quite in the position to. Granted a Kong Wu is. Is more than capable, but I think the total like cohesive physicality that the Sixers have is not really going to be comparable to what the Pistons are going to throw at them. If it's the Pistons that they see. The Cavs are a whole other conversation. But yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat where I'd like to see. It does feel like there's a pretty big drop or step up to the team that whatever team that they're going to. Naturally, it's the Eastern Conference finals. This is the way it should be. But I think I want to see a little bit more of that stress test on the way. Carl has been playing before, I'm ready to say that they're ready to be in okc, because that's a tough. That's a tough bitch to play okc.
- [61:36]
A
Well, you mentioned physicality. I think that's a good segue into Spurs Wolves, which is now tied. I've watched the clip of Victor elbowing Nasrid, like, 30 times at this point. One, because, like, holy shit, he really nailed him in the neck. But then is some of the best camera work I've seen in such a long time.
- [61:57]
B
Like, did we get a good music drop over that? Did anybody pick the. What's the right song to drop over that? I mean, the shot.
- [62:04]
A
I mean, the curb little jingle would be great.
- [62:08]
C
And our guy, Jason Gallagher did the Imogen Heap hide and seek, like, SNL style or.
- [62:14]
B
I guess that's pretty good.
- [62:16]
C
Yeah, that's pretty good. I like that. I thought that was a great one.
- [62:20]
A
It's just. And he was standing there for, like. Like, before he even wound up, he was already like that. So he had to be sitting there with his mouth literally a gabe. I'm not even. Just, like, blowing that out. He was a gabe for three seconds, five seconds, just like, oh, but I guess that was all of us just watching Wemby fucking pummel Nazri.
- [62:40]
C
Let's just pull that clip of Justin's reaction right there. I think that would be useful for many occasions.
- [62:45]
B
Oh, Justin's dismay over somebody being agape for several seconds. Yeah, it's.
- [62:52]
A
Don't say it like that.
- [62:55]
B
You knew I had to. I was like, what look, really? Is that on Dylan's face? It's like. Like, shot. I mean, like, the horror of how hard that hit. Like, I don't know that I've ever been elbowed. I mean, how many times in life do you get elbowed in the neck? Because initially when I saw that, I was like, oh, he was just clearing and maybe didn't see Nas. It was like, no, he saw him. He turned and it was like, there's
- [63:16]
A
a whole beat and then a. The elbow. Yeah.
- [63:19]
B
Which speaks to something I've mentioned to you guys before, which is like, if you didn't watch Vic before he came to the NBA, is he kind of had a little bit of that, like, fly off the handle in him. Like, every once in a while, he'd lose his. He'd get flustered and kind of take himself out of the game. And that was something that they would have to deal with that's kind of the first time that I've seen him do something like that in a while, like, really, really lose it. But I guess for Dylan, it was like. I guess Dylan probably was also processing in the moment, like, oh, they got to our most important guy. This is bad also.
- [63:48]
C
Well, I mean, I think it says something when you have to, like, cross continents and get into transcendental meditation and the impermanence of all things just to quiet the voice within you.
- [63:56]
B
Like Bruce Wayne and his Dem.
- [63:59]
C
There's a lot going on in Victor Webman Yama's head and spirit, and it's part of what makes him a good basketball player. But you have to harness it. And this was like, he let that drop and it had huge consequences. Like, the spurs almost pulled out this game regardless, because their guards are pretty amazing. And I thought Luke Cornett filled in somewhat admirably, kind of like sopping up minutes, and they were able to play small ball the rest of the time and kind of make it work, but you can't do this stuff. And it was. It was so clear. I can't remember the last, like, like, immediate. I didn't even have that moment of hesitation of, oh, did he see him there? It's like, oh, that is definitely a flagrant, too. Like, unlike, unquestionably meets every possible criteria. Wind up, follow through, et cetera. Like, he was going to be thrown out of that game. And I think he was going to be thrown out of that game. He had to have known it the moment he threw that elbow.
- [64:46]
A
Right? And yet, like, looked shocked at, like, what.
- [64:51]
C
What does that mean?
- [64:53]
A
I don't even know if I buy that. But, yeah, I don't blame him to a certain extent because obviously the note is out that you want to be physical with him and get into his body and all that. And the Wolves were particularly physical to start with. And so, I mean, they even mentioned how they'd missed a couple calls and that led to the frustration. So I get it. But that is going to be the blueprint from now on, guarding Victor in the playoffs. And he also saw the Wolves kind of turn that on its head later. The Spurs, I thought, were going to pull that out, but it felt like the Wolves played to their physical advantage down the stretch in that game. And that's the biggest worry where all of a sudden it looks like they're getting offensive rebounds that they probably shouldn't. And Julius Randle looked like unleashed, playing bully ball in a way that, like, he probably hasn't or he needs to be going forward for them to have a chance.
- [65:38]
C
He looked unleashed, but also out of his mind at various points. Like real, real seesaw stuff from Julius Randle, as it often is, is.
- [65:45]
B
But I thought seesaw could be his nickname. That could be Julius's nickname. I mean, honestly, it might as well
- [65:50]
C
be, but it did feel telling. Justin, I think you're spot on about the physicality and the size that even without Victor Webign in the game, when crunch time came, the Wolves went three bigs on the floor, and we're just, like, trying to pummel and work, like, the margins that they have at their disposal to, like, find their inroads in this particular game. And along those lines, I think Naz Reed deserves a ton of credit. This was the Anthony Edwards show in all the big, obvious ways, and he had some, like, super human plays to kind of seal this thing for Minnesota, as did Ayodesumu. But Nas Reed, like, didn't make a single three. And yet I thought walked the balance of what he's supposed to be in this game, in that the best version of Nas is the version that can both, like, work his speed advantage against bigs and his size advantage against smalls and guards. I thought he was doing that stuff perfectly. And it's one of those things that's not always the case where you'll catch Nas on the wrong night. And he plays so much like a wing that you can guard him with a wing wing. And in this one, I thought he just made himself, like, unguardable in that particular way. He was working the offensive glass. He was so aggressive driving. He was like, finding huge effort plays that basically worked as, like, actually the hammer that kind of put the Wolves over the top in the end. So I thought this is an incredible Nasri game and what's becoming a really nice Nazrit series.
- [67:05]
B
Well, we talked about it coming in that that was the on paper sort of advantage for all of the. The guard heavy and the, you know, they. With the cell and with Kelden. It's like Kelden is a. Is really a wing who is cosplaying as a four. Like, he has moments where he there and he had that game where he outworked Julius. I think the. The whole premise of the spurs sort of, you know, capitalizing on this advantage of big fours that they have is. Is for them to play downhill. It's not going to be them settling for jumpers. It's like, get into the rim, use your advantage. And I also think it's kind of funny. I Love the physicality. I love that this is where it's fun to watch. I've really enjoyed this. It is kind of funny. Is it not a little ironic that Chris Finch went on that crusade about the okc, about OKC fouling so much and everything where. Where it's like they. I mean, they. They gangstered that game away from San Antonio at one point last night during that, and it was just kind of
- [67:55]
C
like, it's the best thing about the Wolves. These dudes are fucking nasty all the time. And I love watching it. But, like, own who you are and at the same time, look, Chris Finch is playing the game just like everybody
- [68:05]
A
else, full, full circle.
- [68:06]
B
You play within the rules. If these are the. If this is what's allowable within the scope of the rules, we're going to do it. So power to them.
- [68:12]
A
Unfortunately, everyone seems to be having the same concern about the referees. I just feel like everyone seized on the Thunder, saw an opening, and now everybody is doing it to the point where you have Donovan Mitchell out there complaining. I'm like, that's not your biggest concern right now. There are other things we need to worry about. We should talk about this.
- [68:28]
B
Anybody but you.
- [68:29]
A
Yeah, anyone but you. But the Pistons Cavs, we should talk about briefly. They're going to be playing tonight, recording this Monday morning. So this is before game four. Rob, are you more bullish on the Cavs because we got Harden finally showing up in a big way, or you're more concerned because we got Harden showing up in a big way and you're probably not going to get that again?
- [68:48]
C
Yeah, I kind of don't think we're going to get that. Certainly not every game. This was an amazing James Harden showing, delivered in some of the biggest moments beyond just like his point total. Right. It was. It was about the time and score and, like the specific need of what he was able to provide to counterbalance what Donovan Mitchell was doing. All that was really great. I think what makes me more bullish about the Cavs is I thought this was as well. They played as well defensively in game three and as connected defensively as I think they've played in basically the entire postseason so far. Far, it wasn't without its blips, but overall, a little bit of a higher water mark as far as what the Cavs can be on that end of the floor. And they have to be like, they have to be imposing their will both ways. You have to rely on, you know, great shot making from your stars, but you also need to be a Little more forceful and a little more tethered in terms of your rotations. I thought. I thought the casual was so much better with that stuff.
- [69:37]
B
Yeah. I mean, if we're just leaning on the Cavs being like this, just high energy, it just takes. It takes the pressure off of their offense. Obviously, it needs to be good. We need Harden to make superstar plays, but, I mean, you can't. You can't just enter that as like, the defense is, like, just going to be good enough. Like, they need to lean into it and play. Playing with force has just been sort of like one of the. The core conversations about this group since. Since they've put it together. So, yeah, it's going to be. We've really. Speaking of seesaw, I just feel like we've gone really back and forth within this series. I don't know how much. I mean, have you all moved, like, a ton on this? Because the games one and two, I was just like, the Pistons are just too tough for them, like, and it feels like it's kind of swung the other way.
- [70:19]
A
Yeah. I mean, I have two thoughts here. One is that I feel like Cade is on another level most of the time, but then when you see the turnovers rack up, it really just undercuts it. I was ready to have a Is Cade Cunningham like a top five player in the world? Sort of conversation, because at times he can, like, wrestle control of a game in the way that the absolute best players can, but maybe, man, like, eight turnovers, like, it's just. It can't.
- [70:42]
C
Three straight in crunch time. Like, it was awful, like, and just awful, awful plays that, you know, you want to give guys like Max Drew's credit for picking them off, but you can't be doing that if you're Cade the Winter Soldier.
- [70:54]
B
Matt Max. Truce. How many playmakers in the world could deal with the spacing? Granted, Kate had some, like, just bonehead plays. They. They weren't even, like, spacing caused. But I'm just kind of wondering how many, many. How many, like, big playmakers in the world, ball screen operators could deal with the space issues that he has and not turn the ball over a lot. Like, it's like Luca. It's like three people. It's like LeBron, Luca Jokic.
- [71:18]
A
Well, I'm glad you mentioned that, because there was a critical possession late where they had to trade offensive defense. And this is what we were always worried about at the highest level with the Pistons is that some of their personnel only goes one way. And so they put in Jenkins and Duncan Robinson on offense. But then it, when it went the other way, Harden was able to pick on Robinson because there were too many sore spots. They had to take a SAR off and then when they finally got the whistle, like you would put Asar back on there. But you're right, it is more of a trade off that you'd hope for. It's the type of thing that like they've been so consistent and like it hasn't been too much of an issue. But I do think the higher level of basketball, more crunch time possessions, more final minute possessions, like you're going to have to really like ride the lightning in that regard. And like that's not the type of thing I want to trade even one possession. Discussion of.
- [72:02]
C
I get the instinct to trade the substitution patterns that way, offense and defense with a guy like a Sar especially. But I thought that choice in that moment was a very like you're treating him like he was a Sar Thompson in the Magic series and not a Sar Thompson in this series. Because I think one of the things that I would be very concerned about if I was Cleveland is game by game SAR Thompson has been really plugging into the rhythm of what he's supposed to be doing on offense and how to make himself a weapon. Like there is nothing that sequence in the fourth quarter, he is left wide open in the weak side corner as he's been throughout the playoffs, will continue to be throughout his playoff career. He's been guarded by like Evan Mobley who's sagging off, or James Harden who's just sort of chilling. He catches this pass in the weak side corner, immediately goes into like Draymond Green handoff mode with Duncan Robinson. The Cavs swarm Duncan Robinson. Assar makes himself available, cutting baseline, catches it, redirects a pass to a wide open Tobias Harris on the opposite side of the floor. And like that's how you go from trapped in the corner to completely open shot on the opposite side in so few moves. And it's all based on a Sar Thompson spacing and instinct. I feel like he's making those sorts of connecting plays all the time right now. And I think with the way he's played against Cleveland, I would trust him more in some of these even like offense only circumstances. What he's giving you right now as an offensive rebounder, as a cutter, as a connector within your offense, that stuff is valuable in a way that is hard to like bank on on a single possession basis. But I think he's kind of earned the right to stay on the Floor. In some of those moments, I'm getting
- [73:31]
B
to the point where I think the Thompson brothers are both just. They're sinners. Like I don't.
- [73:38]
A
Well, it's always me.
- [73:40]
B
Neither one of them has played next to stretch bigs or anything like that. I'm just like, I think they're sinners. Like I. That wouldn't. That's.
- [73:45]
C
I thought you were making a lot of. I thought you were making commentary about
- [73:48]
B
their sinning win and they need to repent. Their father needs to repertoire, not teach them to shoot.
- [73:54]
A
Well, that's what would make having any sort of stretch option in that front court for the Pistons so intriguing. Because if you have that option in there, I do think like he could pop in a way that a lot of smaller ball centers tend to. It's just they don't even have like a Kelly Olynic around to just like steal like two minutes of it.
- [74:09]
C
Well, they got a B ball Paul to pop in here and give him like great, really awesome minutes. Hit like Dirk one footed fades on people. But. But this is the problem. Paul Reed and Isaiah Stewart both can theoretically hit three, sometimes even at a high clip in a given season. But they're just not respected as shooters. And so they don't have the impact of the stretch even if they are theoretically stretched guys.
- [74:29]
A
Yeah. All right, last one. Lakers Thunder. When you listen to this, the Lakers might be out in Cancun, but I do wonder, Rob, is this the last game in LA for one LeBron James?
- [74:42]
C
I. I think it is. Does anyone think he's coming back?
- [74:45]
A
He's been there for eight years.
- [74:46]
C
It's been a while.
- [74:47]
B
Wow.
- [74:48]
A
Literally double the amount of time he's been spending on some of his other journeys. But it does feel like this is coming to an end. Although like you survey the situation and you think like the obvious candidates would be like New York, Golden State.
- [75:02]
C
Yep.
- [75:03]
A
Maybe a Miami reunion.
- [75:04]
B
Like does the Golden State thing well. Jimmy and Draymond and LeBron.
- [75:10]
C
Well, they don't have to have Jimmy and Draymond and LeBron.
- [75:13]
A
Sure. Not Draymond. So Steve Kirk comes back. I don't know. It makes some sense. I just don't know where else would be the move if he did want to move where. So if you're like giving odds for some of these teams, I feel like the Lakers have more despite the fact that it seems like everyone is on the the same level that like they've kind of both moved past each other.
- [75:30]
C
Yeah, maybe if it's Lakers versus the warriors on an odds basis, you would still say, okay, maybe he comes back to the Lakers, but if it's the Lakers versus the field, I think he's going to end up somewhere else. It just feels like the right feels like a transition point with everything that's happening with Luca and Austin reeves's rise. What LeBron is chasing at this point in his career, and if this is it for him, I mean, he's gone down in a blaze of glory in this series. It's been so fun to watch. He's been so good. I think like on an individual mismatch, creation and manipulation basis is just doing shit that no one else in the league does. And it. He finds ways out of like every sticky situation. He pries Lou Dort off of him with like a crowbar and just like works his way around screens just often enough to see some daylight and is so good at making the most of every single one of those moments. And yet when you play against the Thunder, that shit just doesn't matter that much. Like in the grand scheme of things, they are so overwhelming that LeBron thinking the game at a level no one else on the floor is, can only get you so far. And it's, it's made these games more competitive than I think a lot of people probably would have expected and certainly a lot more interesting. I just don't know that it's going to extend the series any further than this.
- [76:37]
A
Do we need to jism about AJ Mitchell real quickly?
- [76:42]
C
This is. What did you just say?
- [76:45]
A
Jism?
- [76:47]
C
Why are you like this?
- [76:48]
A
Do we need to delegate issues of A.J.
- [76:53]
C
mitchell and Chad? I want to put them both together. They've both really shown up, I think in this series in ways that they've needed them to too.
- [77:00]
A
Yeah, been great.
- [77:03]
B
Justin, I wanted to pose this question I had in the, in the. In the mock, which was I be Rob Rob's take on this? I didn't get your take on it. Are we in the middle of. Is this the most dominant talent acquisition run in the history of the NBA for the Thunder?
- [77:17]
C
Yes, it's. It's pretty impressive. I mean, you watch AJ Mitchell in particular, and I know this has been talk. Talked around and about so much this week, but he just has like all of the makings of a starting level guard and some of. Some of the makings of like actual star players just kind of like lurking within him, ready to be unleashed in these sorts of moments. And so, oh, he can be your tertiary now upgraded to secondary ball handler because J Dub is out. It's just a ridiculous level of luxury that I To your greater point here, Kyle, Like, I'm not sure any team in NBA history has quite enjoyed.
- [77:53]
A
The crazy thing is like the run isn't over yet. Like we've talked, we talk all about like how like toppage and Sorber are still like took off so we have that wave. But like a lot of their bets that they've made on the future are also starting to turn their way where like they have the future Mavs pick. It seems like after Jettison ad like they're pivoting more toward the future. And so like this isn't over. There's still like another actual wave coming here. I think the bigger conversation is going to be like, what do they do about the established players who have been so successful for them in this run that they can no longer afford to pay? I think Hartenstein coming up on a team option this offseason. What do you do with door? Like, what do you do with the established veterans that have been so good for you? Do you go and turn it over to the next wave because that's just how it has to be, or do you think feel like you're going to lose something intrinsic about those guys to go to a different version of them? That's going to be pretty fascinating to watch.
- [78:48]
C
I've been thinking about Hardenstein a lot in that respect during this playoff run because, I mean, there are games where he comes out in the first quarter and he's just like one of the most important players on the floor for OKC for five straight minutes. And it's the combination of, of the defense he's giving you with the rim protection, the little touch shots, like big to big passing that he and Chet have. That's like a really special combination. He's just so hard to replace. And I think hard in a way where if you, you know, if they do move on from Hartenstein, it will probably be something like moving Chet to the five full time and plugging in another very good player at the four, the three. That just makes you a very different team. And so even from a perspective of even if they could afford him, there's so many guys who they're trying to find time and minutes and opportunity for. Is Isaiah Hardenstein the guy you want to displace, given everything that he means to what the Thunder are right now?
- [79:35]
B
Yeah, taking it to like the broader kind of question. It's like you can go back and point to, I mean, to talk about the talent acquisition thing. You could go and point to every title team and be like, wow, wow, look at these sequences. Look. Wow, look at what Jerry Krause did to, you know, put together that team or the. I thought of the Celtics in the 80s, the way that's the only thing comparable that I could kind of think of in terms of just having an embarrassment of riches and being one step ahead of everybody. But the trading picks, sort of like 4D chess, that wasn't really in play yet. So in the modern era, I don't really know that there's anything kind of comparable to it. I wonder if Hartenstein would even take like a discount because he clearly wanted to go there. How much? How granted, I don't want to. I don't want to be speaking for anybody's money. Guys want their money. But he did want to go there pretty badly. It makes you wonder if that's in play.
- [80:23]
C
Yeah.
- [80:23]
A
Was that implied when he took such high dollar amount up front that on the back end that they would probably come to some sort of agreement that could be in play would be also cap circumvention. So maybe that would be the way to stop the Thunder.
- [80:35]
C
So allegedly you're saying.
- [80:36]
A
Not implying that 2029 Denver first. They also have. Could be pretty juicy, which is one, I believe the Nuggets traded during the finals in order to get some back end picks in order to load up on young guys to extend that window, which.
- [80:52]
C
Well, even. Even the 2029 Denver first. That's only top five protected like that could be a pretty decent pick.
- [80:58]
A
Good.
- [80:58]
B
Yeah.
- [80:58]
A
That's what I'm talking about.
- [81:00]
B
And they have two picks in this draft, I think. What? They have 12 and they have 16. 17. What is it? 12 and 17. Yeah. What are they going to. They could move. They could move up and really. And be way more flexible and be like, all right, we. We won a couple titles. You know, we still got our mvp. We keep a few of these guys, spurs it up and just go ERA to era like this is pretty unprecedented.
- [81:24]
C
Crazy.
- [81:25]
A
Just decide to move up and trade for AJ DeBonsa because they have that sort of capability.
- [81:29]
C
Why not?
- [81:31]
A
All right, let's wrap it there.
- [81:32]
C
Well, before we go, can I get a temperature check with the two of you on something that's been stuck in my craw and I can't tell if I'm being an old man about it in this series. I think we've reached a point, as we alluded to earlier, where the conversation around the Thunder's physicality has like taken on a whole life of its own and influenced basically everything about the way we talk about the NBA. But Austin Reeves's ongoing indignation about not getting like literally every foul call.
- [82:01]
A
I'm.
- [82:01]
C
I feel like I'm going insane. And you'll see him like screaming at the refs. They'll show the replay and it's like he's either barely touched or launched himself into somebody and is expecting the grift. Have the two of you had the same kind of like. Like, I have like a reflexive, like almost distaste for what Austin Reeves is doing right now. And I, I don't know if I'm overreacting or not.
- [82:21]
B
It's been a source of comedy for me. I mean, I'm not, I'm not feeling disgusted by it. I want to say shouts to Jomy with like an all time tweet with his where he took the video of Austin Reeves and said it was, you know, your. When your spouse is complaining to the. What was it to the restaurant that they got the order wrong? I, I've been more amused by it. I don't know how Justin feels.
- [82:40]
A
People have just lost their mind.
- [82:42]
C
That's what it feels like.
- [82:44]
A
Is the Thunder's grifting egregious? Yes. Is it more egregious than most superstars? Not necessarily. And so for me, it kind of just washes over me. I recognize that like chat has been overselling a lot, but at a certain point, I often feel like there's just nothing left to talk about from a broad sense, from the espn, like big picture sense with the Thunder. And so you, you just latch on to something and it has become the foul drawing. So I acknowledge it. But by and large, I kind of just feel like this is part of the game and I just don't know how to legislate it out. Unless we want to go to the Popemobile for the refs idea that I've been like caping for for several years here. I don't know why players are allowed to talk to the refs in the first place. You see what happens. Tony Brothers is out here trying to fight people. Reaves is accosting the ref after the game is just. No talking.
- [83:32]
C
Protect the refs is the stance of group chat. Yeah, I think we have thought about it. I mean, I, I just think Reeves, like the Thunder thing is what it is. And I understand that they're uniquely frustrating. I just, I'm. I'm seeing like a disproportionate level of Austin Reeves actually getting fouled and Austin Reeves being big bad about being fouled that I just, I'm trying to reconcile and understand, like, what is causing this, like, what is the source of the agitation. Beyond, it's really not fun to play against Lou Dort and Kayson Wallace and Alex Caruso for games on end.
- [84:04]
A
Reaves is real, like, considered the source situation here. Real like Blake Griffin, DeMarcus Cousins sort of situation. Yeah, like he's one of the biggest grifters in the league. And the Lakers routinely lead the league and follow drawing despite who is on the roster because they get such a happy whistle. Like they're not the ones who should be complaining about this. Everybody else should.
- [84:23]
C
And he's really good. I just think sometimes if you're a really good player and you're having a tough series shooting, maybe it's because the players you're working against are some of the best defenders in the world and not because there is a larger, you know, international conspiracy to hold you member of one of the most popular teams in the world down.
- [84:41]
A
Glad that we added this addendum just to take Austin Reeves down a pig.
- [84:46]
C
You know, I just, I needed to get it off the chest. I'm sorry.
- [84:49]
B
Kick him in the hand in the, in the abductor.
- [84:51]
A
Yeah. Rob wins the bang wars here. All right. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Wednesday. Talk to you then. 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic or visit MD Gambling Help.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York, Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.
- [85:45]
C
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B
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B
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A
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B
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