Howard Beck (3:07)

And.

Logan Murdoch (3:09)

This is interesting because Steve Kerr said that we had it out a little bit. He's made a decision to go back into the locker room. That's all I'm going to say about it. Everything is private. But he also said that he would not have brought Draymond Green back into the game. Draymond said temper spilled over and I thought it was best that I get out of there. I don't think it was a situation where it was going to get better. It was best to remove myself. There's a lot of thoughts here, Howard. I mean, obviously I'm in. I'm in the Bay. I'm kind of close to this. You've been close around the warriors and Draymond for the most of their dynastic run. This isn't new Draymond and Steve Kirk getting into it, but like I said, Draymond, at least last night it was the given the appearance that he quit on his team. Now, I know he got back to the bench, but that wasn't a great visual for Golden State or him or the for the backdrop of the season. What did you think when you saw this? And I don't know where the warriors go from here. This is not good. It was already bad vibes from both Draymond and the warriors throughout this season. Draymond has not been playing well over the last few weeks, and now it's kind of boiled over. I, I don't know where we go from here.

Howard Beck (4:19)

The irony of this, Logan and merry Christmas week. Mr. Mr. Murdoch, the irony of this is that Draymond struggles had been a lot about his passing, right? Like he's a really important ball handler and playmaker for this team, has been their playmaking hub for most of his career. And his turnovers had been a problem. And the turnover that preceded the blow up on the bench was Draymond's only turnover. Of the night. He was actually having a really good game all around. And look, before we get into, like, what this may mean, they won the game. They won it without Draymond for the last quarter and a half or so. They beat a very good Orlando Magic team. Granted, it's a home game for the Warriors. The Magic have been on the road a while. The Magic don't have Franz Wagner, but still, the Magic are a tough team. And the warriors, for a team that was just trying to get back to.500, which they did, that was still a pretty big and pretty important win for them. A lot went right for the Warriors. The Draymond thing, there's so many different ways to interpret this now because we've seen so many versions of this. Logan. I think the most important thing is if, you know, if I'm going to go glass half full, which you probably saw coming, they've been through way worse than this. Way worse. Steve and Draymond alone. And, you know, there was the 2016 blow up, which I cannot believe, by the way. It was February 2016. I just looked it up. Which means we're coming up on the 10 year anniversary of Draymond and Steve Kerr almost coming to blows in the locker room in Oklahoma City at halftime and Lisa Salters overhearing the whole thing from the hallway and reporting on it. That was thought to be the breaking point for them. And here we are almost 10 years later. There was the moment in 2018 or 19, whenever it was that Steve was caught on camera, and I don't remember if we caught the mic or if it was just lip reading, where he basically said, like, I'm so tired of Draymond's shit. That one is already five, six years ago, seven years ago, maybe. They've been through a ton as a team and those two individually as coach and player. Again, if you're going to go glass half full here, and I'm going to do it just for the sake of argument, because I know probably in the Bay, this is blowing up, and I'm a safe 3,000 miles away from whatever the drama is. If we. If we go back, you know, a couple years where Draymond was seemingly at his true low point, right? The Nurkic and Gobert incidents within a few weeks of each other and a long suspension, what was an indefinite suspension. He comes back, he says he's, you know, you know, done a bunch of stuff in terms of therapy and everything else. Anger management, impulse management, whatever. I did a whole story on it back then. I sat down with him. And there was a lot of understandable skepticism from people because we've seen so many versions of this from Draymond not containing himself, whether it's text, whether it's flagrants, whether it's hitting somebody. The Jordan pool incident, again, a much, much bigger and more dramatic low point and. And. And red flag than anything we saw last night. I wonder if him removing himself and going to the locker room was not. I'm. I'm bailing on this team or on this game, but more of a. This is part of the coping mechanism or part of the.

Logan Murdoch (7:34)

The.

Howard Beck (7:34)

The mechanism for. For dealing with intense conflict. Don't sit in the midst of it and keep going. Get yourself out of it. I'm interpreting there. He did not say that. And I could be completely wrong, and maybe I might be giving him too much credit. That's possible. But it did strike me that maybe because it's been a few years now or a couple years, we have not seen anything anywhere near, thankfully, the Nurkic or Jokic or Jordan Poole incidents. Did Draymond pull himself because that was the most constructive way to settle this thing down and to settle himself down, that Steve decided not to put him back in the rest of the game. Does that escalate this in terms of the tension between them, or was that just the practical thing to do in the moment? Is that punitive? That's the stuff that I don't think we'll know for another couple of days. Right. Because Steve, you know, really, you know, kept himself in check post game last night. He wasn't going to say anything. And Draymond, to his credit, met with the media, was really calm, and, you know, just matter of factly went through it all. This may end up being nothing. This may end up being something, you know, very alarming for a team that is, you know, at 500 and still struggling. I don't know how. Well, I'm very curious to hear from just your perspective, but also, like, what is happening in the Bay right now? Are people going crazy about this?

Logan Murdoch (8:58)

Oh, I mean, it's Christmas, man. Everybody's actually leaving the Bay at this point. It's not. They're going to Tahoe, they're going to sag. They're going everywhere but here. But I think my interpretation of what happened is, you know, it seems like Draymond quit. Like, it just seems like it based on the. And we can, you know, go glass half full. But this has been brewing for years, right? And there was a telling thing at the end of the of Draymond Green's presser, where. Where front of the show, Nick Friedell. I. I think believe it was Nick for. About the relationship right now, as it stands between Draymond Green and Steve Kerr. And the telling point was he didn't say. Draymond didn't say, oh, it's great. It's amazing. It was. We've won together and we've gone through things, this stuff before. You know, we've won a lot of games together. But he didn't explicitly say we're in a good place. And if you look at the relationship between Draymond and Steve Kurt, throughout the years, we've talked. You've talked about it just now, but it's been testing. It's been up and down. All right. Like, I think about 2016, what happened? Also, Steve was really pissed about. Pissed about Draymond, like, not giving full effort during the pandemic season when he was the only one left, right. Not questioning his leadership, but being disappointed in his leadership during that time also. Just like everyone else, just being completely exhausted with all of the antics. Right? And you know, Draymond goes through this cycle where he does the antic. He talks about it very candidly in a way that kind of makes him feel like a victim. Like, man, wow, you're. Maybe he's turned a corner, right? But then he'll serve the suspension, and then he'll go right back to doing everything that he has done, right? And it's. Frustrated coaches, is frustrated players a lot. Me and you texted a few. I think it was a couple years ago. It's ironic that this was. This happened against Orlando, because one of the other instances that you have, you didn't bring up. But I know we have always talked about was the instance in Orlando, I believe it was either last year or two years ago, where Draymond got an ejection and you in the. Then the camera goes to an exasperated Steph Curry. Right? And I feel like everyone is really, at this point, really exasperate, exasperated about Draymond Green, Right. It's one thing to do it in 2016 when you're winning and, you know, winning cures all wounds. But right now, this is not a good basketball team, aside from Steph and Jimmy, who probably should take up. Be taking up the mantle. But he's been complaining about the offense in the Bay Area. Everyone's been complaining about Steve Kerr's coaching. And the fact of the matter is, the roster is just terrible. But as it relates to Draymond Green, right? Now, I think this is a real turning point back. I mean, I think that this. I think that a lot of people in that building are really fed up with Draymond's antics, right? And I think that it's also telling that, you know, he didn't get necessarily his last contract with the endorsement of Steve. It was. He talked to Joe Lake of. And got his hundred million dollars. Right? Like, his alliance isn't with Steve, it's with Steph Curry and Joe Lakob. Joe Lakob looks at him like a son. And as long as Joe Lakoff is going to continue being the owner of the team, it feels like Draymond's going to be there. But the conflict there is. A lot of people in that building are really fed up with what he's doing because they're not winning, and he's not the player that he used to be. In the locker room, quite frankly, isn't the locker room that is conducive to Draymond being successful. Because when he was at his most successful with his antics, you had the Sean Livingston, you had the Andre Iguodalas, you had the David West. Those guardrails don't exist for him right now. So you get it. You. You see these things that happen, and instead of, you know, them all coming together with veteran leadership, Draymond is the veteran leadership. And now, you know, the young guys are seeing this constantly and constantly, and it's. It's really toxic right now in that locker room. And I, you know, I. I try to be optimistic, but I can't be optimistic with what I'm seeing right now, just for a variety of reasons, but Draymond's outburst, and he just got ejected two days ago against Phoenix, right? Like, whether whether it was. It was warranted or not, his antics are really tearing down this team right now. One of many reasons that are tearing this team down, like the roster, the off season, all these things. But Draymond was. Is last night was, I think, bigger than we. We give it credit for. I think it's going to be a real turning point in this season.

Howard Beck (13:48)

I think it's a completely fair interpretation of it, and it may well turn out to be that. I think the reason I'm kind of like. And look, this. This. This happened late last night. So I woke up this morning and, you know, had to play back all this stuff and say, oh, a thing happened. Um. Oh, Draymond, hey, surprise, surprise. But honestly, it was less than what I expected after seeing, like, some headlines and tweets and what?

Logan Murdoch (14:13)

Oh.

Howard Beck (14:13)

Oh, my gosh. And you know you would. You had texted the chain about it. I'm like. But I think the reason it's not phasing me is that they have been through so much worse. He himself has done so much worse. How could this be the breaking point if the Jordan pool punch wasn't. If the Nurkic choke wasn't. If the Gobert choke. Camera one. One was a punch and one was a choke or one was a. I don't know. He flailed on Nurkic and choked Gobert. There's a lot of stuff to remember. Stepped on Sabonis. This. This is so far down the list of Draymond offenses over the years. It's hard for me to believe that a Draymond Kerr. Just to quickly put a perspective, if you watch the. Like, there's a fan who got video on, like, their iPhone, right? So that's what's. What's circulating. If that had been any other coach and player, you would have been like, oh, whatever. Like a blow up in the middle of the third quarter. Coach and player yelling at each other a little bit, and then the player leaves. It's because it's Draymond that it's heightened. And that's fair. I'm not saying that we. We shouldn't say it that way. He has a history, and they have a history, but it wasn't even the biggest coach versus player argument I've ever seen on a bench was. And in the history of this team and these individuals, it doesn't even rate in the top five most intense or alarming moments. It just doesn't. So this being the breaking point, I think it would be to the other point you made Logan, which is there was a lot that this franchise was willing to endure with Draymond because they were winning and because he was really important to them. And it's always been this kind of sliding scale, right? Like, is there a breaking point? What is the breaking point? Well, we're willing to look the other way on this or absorb this or get through this because of everything he means to us. And at a time when you're 500, just barely getting back to 500 last night, that calculus may be different. So I think it's a fair point. I just don't see a scenario here where they're trading Draymond in the middle of the season.

Logan Murdoch (16:13)

Well, they literally can't. I don't think anyone wants Draymond.

Podcast Sponsor (16:16)

Right.

Logan Murdoch (16:16)

And to take on that. He has a player option next year.

Howard Beck (16:19)

You'Re not sending him home. So when we say breaking point, you're not trading him, you're not sending him home or suspending him, probably that would be. Feel like an overreaction to. To what was a. A significant. But again, in the grand scheme of things, smaller event. Like, I don't. I don't know what breaking point means at this stage. Like, what is.

Logan Murdoch (16:36)

I don't know, man. They were pissed last night. Howard, like, he, like, yes, he came on the bench, but inexplicably, he walk. Like, no matter what his reasoning is, he walked off the court and then they went on a run without him. There's a couple of things to this, though, too, right? This is on the backdrop of the terrible off season that they had, which is honestly just malpractice. You don't. That was one of the worst off seasons that I could have in recent memory for a team that is allegedly trying to contend, right? So you have. That. You have the Jimmy Butler trade that is not really. Really worked outside of that run last year. And then the Draymond of it all is, yes, this isn't the worst. Even though he walked off the court, this isn't the worst argument that they've had. But, like, it's coming on the backdrop of, like, all of these other things that we have spoken about, right? It's one thing to, like, it's coming on the back of you punching your teammate. It's all. It's coming on the back of you almost like fighting your coach at halftime of one of the biggest games of your season, when you're trying to get 73 wins, right? It's coming. It's like a comb. It's like when you keep taking this person back and they keep just doing stuff, right? And this is. It's. It's different now because of all of the things that have piled up. That's why I think that this is. This is really a. A turning point because all this stuff has also been happening behind the scenes, right? Like, this isn't like the first blow up this season behind the scenes, right? So I think that especially when you look at the pressers, Steve Kerr was not happy. Yes, he said this is. This is a private matter, but he was not happy after this.

Howard Beck (18:18)

Oh, for sure.

Logan Murdoch (18:19)

And. And he was. He's been pissed at Draymond before, but not like this, man. And also, like, he's not the player that he used to be, right. Even if you think about the last finals that they went to got played off the court, right? He hasn't played well this season offensively, or you can argue defensively. Now, he's had his moments, but Draymond, on top of the fact that he's not playing real. His work ethic has always been coming into question. I think people are just tired of him. You asked me about, like, what the mood is around the Bay Area. Honestly, I lived here my whole life. I've seen Draymond's rise. This whole dynastic run, it's been a real 180 on how people see him in the Bay Area right now. Right? Like, I think it was post Draymond, post Jordan Poole punch. Excuse me. I think the sentiment from the fan base is completely different than what it was, right? Like, he was known as one of the pillars of this dynasty, and he still will always be that. But I think the fan base is really annoyed with him. They, like, this is a weekly occurrence. Beck, he continues to do this, right? And he's not putting up the production like, people forget. And this is why, like, at home and, like, around. Around people, I always have to have the argument, you know, people say the dumbass argument, that Draymond, is he a Hall of Famer? I'm like, yes, he's a fucking hall of Famer. And. But I think his antics have overshadowed how great of a player he was and is, because he's done so much of this stuff and really put his team at risk in the biggest moments. Now, they won last night, but that was not a fun game to watch. Wasn't a fun finish because you had all of this clouded over, that win. And you know they're gonna have to reckon with this. I mean, you say there's no suspension. I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't. I'm not trying to report anything, but this was you. He walked off the court and the.

Howard Beck (20:18)

Game, and he came back.

Logan Murdoch (20:19)

He came back. He came back. He said he stretched or did something. I mean, like, guy.

Howard Beck (20:23)

Guys do. Granted, this is different. Guys do sometimes walk to the locker room in the middle of a game, usually to go to the basketball.

Logan Murdoch (20:30)

But also one. One distinction. One distinction, though, real quick. It wasn't like he was sitting on the bench, which implies Steve wanted him back on the floor. Right. Usually when you're in a. When you're in a tunnel, like a timeout tunnel, if the guy isn't sitting on the bench, he's probably out of the game. Draymond seemed like. Like, it seemed like Steve wanted him back in the game, and he just walked off the floor. Right. Like there's a, he completely ended everything.

Howard Beck (20:55)

When Steve says after the game, no, I wasn't going to put him back in that. I think that's a pretty clear message there. That, yeah, I was pissed enough that, that once he had done what he had done, whether it was the blow up itself or leaving and going to the locker room, a line had been crossed and he was, he was just not going to go back to him. Not downplaying that, that aspect at all. There's clearly an issue there that was still lingering post game. Steve was tense in his post game and terse in his post game. But I again, I just come back to the fact that these guys have been through so much worse. Like they'll, I think they'll just move on. I really do. Whether that ends up, you know, they have no choice. Well, I don't think they do. Right. By the way, they are third in defensive rating right now as a team for the season and their offense is 20th. So like defense isn't their issue, offense is their issue. Draymond has something to do with that, that low offensive rating, his turnovers, his lack of production, his in general. But without him, they're also not the third best defensive team in the NBA right now. So like they're hanging in.

Logan Murdoch (22:01)

They also don't have much, they don't also don't have much offensive scoring outside of Steph and sometimes Jimmy when he wants to play offense.

Howard Beck (22:08)

Yeah, back to your point about their off season, right. Like they went out and got a, you know, 80 year old Al Horford who's, you know, hasn't played now in weeks. They're just like, they're really outside of, of Stephen, Jimmy and Draymond on his best days. There's just not a lot there like oh cool, we got a Pajemski game or oh cool, they got a Cam Spencer game. Like there's, there's just not a lot there. They need to trade Kuminga for something useful sooner than later and that's really their only, like it's not even a get out of jail free card. It's like, you know, try to squeeze between the bars of the jail card. Like I, I don't know where that's going to get them but, but that's really the only move they have left to make in season and you know, they're hanging in there. They look like they're, you know, still going to be at least a play in team. But. Yeah, I mean, what, what does Steph look like by the spring as hard as you're having to ride him because you just don't have enough offense on this roster and you don't have much of a front court.

Logan Murdoch (23:10)

Just absolute malpractice by the warriors front office. Man, I'm like, they spent all summer trying to win a negotiation and the guys that they got was GP2, Melton and Al Horford, two of which aren't even in the lineup right now. Like just, just crazy. M. We're going to look back on this as just one of the, one of the worst fall from graces. It's, it's, it's so. Just disappointing, right? A guy like Stephen, it's, it's, it's tough. It's tough. It's not what it was. But anyways, let's, let's get to the, to the Christmas matchup. Warriors versus Mavericks. Now, the Mavericks are their own level of disappointment right now, right? Like they have the Cooper flag future. They kind of just stumbled into that. It's funny. Go read the 52 best moments of the ringer. 52 moments of this year from the ringer. You wrote about the, the Mavericks backing into their. The lottery and how they were fruitful despite the fact that they just disrespected the basketball gods and trading one of the greatest players of his generation. But they're here now. They're like, seem to be a team without any North Star whatsoever. I feel like this is going to be one of the worst games of the, of the. Of the day. How do you, how do we feel about the Mavericks at this point in the season? It's pretty disappointment. It's just sadness all around. Like it's going to be sad. This is. That Chase centers. Chase. Clay's coming back, but he really should be in a Golden State uniform. It's going to be awkward. It's weird.

Howard Beck (24:45)

Yeah, it's.

Logan Murdoch (24:46)

It's not going to be fun at all.

Howard Beck (24:47)

I was looking at these games and trying to feel like, are there themes around all these, these five games on Christmas Day. This. I decided this was the angsty game of the day. There's just a lot of angst. You like, Clay's coming back, but Clay's not Clay anymore and Clay doesn't want to be. You know, Clay went there to go play with Luca and Kyrie and like there's no Luca and at the moment still no Kyrie. The warriors are going through it with Draymond. The, the, the, the Mavericks get Anthony Davis back, but they're still kind of a ho hum team. They just Lost to the Pelicans. Like, it's just. This is. This is just a seriously angsty game all the way around for both of these teams. Even the Anthony Davis part of it. Like, they've been playing better since he got back. They're 7 and 7 in the 14 games they've had Anthony Davis. It's just not a very good team, guys. That really quickly pan out for a second, though, because this is a bad. This may be the one bad game of the day. And who knows, between Cooper Flag and Steph, there may be enough, like, magical moments that this will still be a fun game.

Logan Murdoch (25:42)

Sure.

Howard Beck (25:42)

But credit to the league. Shout out to Evan Wash for the scheduling on this because they have. The top six Western Conference teams are all in action on Christmas Day and we know that the best teams are all in the west anyway. So the best six teams in the west and seven of the top eight, counting the warriors, are all playing on Christmas Day. The only kind of potentially bad game other than this one might be Cavs at Knicks. And that's not going to be the Knicks fault. It's the Cavs fault for being entirely underwhelming.

Logan Murdoch (26:09)

That's the game that's on when you're opening presents. That's literally just the game that's like.

Howard Beck (26:12)

It'S on because that's 9am that's noon here, dude. Everybody's already like, you know, halfway into their eggnog. The only teams that you could say like, the, the complaint every year is always like, well, why wasn't Team X on the Christmas Day slate? The only teams you could make an argument for. And they're good arguments. The Pistons for sure. And you could kind of see coming that the. The Pistons might have been. Might have merited this. And actually Pistons at Knicks would have been a lot more fun at this stage. Or the Celtics, but then nobody saw that coming. So, like, those are the only two, like, really good Eastern Conference teams or. Or good teams, period, that weren't scheduled. So the n. The. The league did a good job. So I just want to note that, yeah, this, this game. Mavs at Warriors. Look, at minimum, we know there's only so many more of these we're going to get with Steph on Christmas, so appreciate it while you can. Cooper Flag for all the maverick struggles, has been pretty freaking awesome in stretches and in stretches has looked like a rookie and has had too much on his plate because they don't have a point guard. But this, there's upside in this game. Logan. I'm not ready to bury Mavs at Warriors yet. I, I think, I mean, it could.

Logan Murdoch (27:22)

Be fun, but I think it also can be very depressing. Right? Like, even with its fun work to it. Right? Like, I, I remember looking at this one when the, when the schedule came out, looking at Mavericks, warriors, and I was like, that's kind of odd, right? Like, maybe there's a Warriors, Lakers. Maybe we get like LeBron and stuff on Christmas or something like that. Right? I mean, this just seemed like an odd pairing.

Howard Beck (27:45)

I, I think they already had figure, figured out the rest of the matchups, knew they wanted the warriors on, and then said, oh, we gotta get the top pick in the draft with all this hype on. So I, I guess Cooper Flag is going to. To the Bay.

Logan Murdoch (27:56)

Yeah, that's fair. I mean, what. Okay, so we're gonna also do stocking stuffers for each team. So what's your stocking stuffer for the Mavericks and the Warriors?

Howard Beck (28:04)

Yeah. Yeah. I thought we should, you know, give a little gift to all these teams that are bringing us so much joy and angst. Stocking stuffer for the Mavericks. It's either an early return by Kyrie that's still out there. They might still get a Kyrie Irving appearance at some point this season, or a Hall of draft picks for Anthony Davis. And I don't know, there's a haul, really, but a Hall of Something for Anthony Davis, that's. That's my wish for the, The Mavericks. One of those two. What do you got?

Logan Murdoch (28:35)

I think for the Mavericks? I don't know, man. I just want a whole reset for them. I just want to. I want them to trade everyone. I want them to trade every single person and get as many picks as they can and just build around Cooper Flag because they're in this weird place right now where they're not going to win a championship. Even Kyrie coming back just seems sad, too. Just wait the whole rest, like, wait for another offseason.

Cliff (28:57)

I know.

Howard Beck (28:57)

What's the point?

Logan Murdoch (28:58)

Playing for anything? What is the point? Yeah, it's just depressing because Cooper Flag is really good and you want to see him play. You kind of want to see Cooper Flag play on a bad team just so you can see Cooper Flag just kind of come into his own and figure things out. And it's weird because you have so many veterans, right? You see Clay, the only thing that's making him happy right now is Meg the Stallion right now. Right? Like, the, the, the. The play on the court is not making him happy. You know what? Stocky stuff I want Clay to get traded to a team where he just has to play 15 minutes a game tops, and then, you know, hit a couple threes and compete. Because, like, right now he, he's, I think the biggest disservice that Nico did other than the Mavs fans, like second or third, is what he did to Klay Thompson. Right? Like, Clay doesn't deserve this.

Howard Beck (29:42)

No, no, send Clay to like the Pistons or somewhere. Right? Like, get him somewhere where you just get a lot of open shots. Just do it, do it.

Logan Murdoch (29:49)

I don't even want Clay to go back to the Warriors. Right. I know there was. I don't even want that for him. I want him just to. Yeah, I want him to be in the playoffs. I want him to just be excited. He don't even got to win a title, but I want, I want good for him. So Detroit would be really fun for the Warriors. I just want harmony, you know, I just want to.

Howard Beck (30:07)

Peace, love, understanding, baby.

Logan Murdoch (30:09)

Peace, love and understanding, man. So, like, if you got a trade cominga to get that, there's, you might have to just trade because they have like a lot of high maintenance young guys. So like just get them off the, off the roster and then just, yeah, you know, maybe get to 50 wins.

Howard Beck (30:23)

The obvious stocking stuffer for the warriors is the Kaminga trade. Right? And I was like looking at that.

Logan Murdoch (30:28)

Should have happened two and a half years ago for sure.

Howard Beck (30:30)

They, they waited way too long. But you know, that's ownership like they, you know, Lake was too attached to him as he was all do a 2 attached to Wiseman and too attached to all the young guys drafted. I, I don't know who they get. Like, can you, can you. Is. Can Kuminga get you Nick Claxton from the Nets? Can you get one of the Mavs guys? If, if we're going to tear down the Mavs, can you get Gafford or P.J. washington from the Mavericks?

Podcast Sponsor (30:55)

Could.

Howard Beck (30:55)

You know, we people have bandied about, you know, Trey Murphy or Herb Jones, but I don't know if you're prying loose any of, of the Pelicans guys. Pell's on a five game win streak, by the way.

Logan Murdoch (31:04)

Let's go, baby. We'll see.

Amazon Prime Sponsor (31:08)

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Logan Murdoch (32:45)

Stay with the Texas team, the Houston Rockets at the Los Angeles Lakers. This is going to be fun. I think this is going to be one of the best games of the slate. It is a 8pm Eastern start. Let's talk about we talk about the Lakers a lot. What do you think? What have you seen from Houston that you like and dislike right now?

Howard Beck (33:06)

First of all my my theme on this one. This is the aging rivals game of the day today.

Logan Murdoch (33:12)

Rivals.

Howard Beck (33:14)

No, look Durant versus LeBron is like we've been doing this since like the early 2000 and tens and you know when these guys went up against each other in the finals in 2012 that was a really big deal. LeBron wins that one. Durant gets his revenge in back to back years in 17 and 18 with the Warriors. We don't know how many more times we're getting KD versus LeBron. So I think savor this one again while while we've got it. The Rockets have been super impressive at this moment. 179 third best offense in the league, fourth in defense, third net rating as much as everybody was Hyped on the Rockets and Amen Thompson and, and, and Shangon breaking through and how's Durant going to look with them? Whatever. And like, you know, but then Fred Van Vlik goes down. Are they going to have enough ball handling and playmaking and what do they do in, in clutch time? Is this just going to be a my turn, your turn offense? It's all working. Everything for the most part is working.

Logan Murdoch (34:11)

Except against the Kings. I don't know what.

Howard Beck (34:15)

That was great, Great team.

Logan Murdoch (34:17)

Kings have the most random wins this season. It's crazy, complete.

Howard Beck (34:22)

I don't know if anything's more random than the Thunder only having three losses, one of which is to Portland, but.

Logan Murdoch (34:28)

But fair point plays hard, man. Portland plays really hard.

Howard Beck (34:32)

I like watching Portland play, but they're a weird team. I, I'm, I'm just super impressed by the Rockets like you. It's, you know, we talked about in the preseason, like, how was Amend Thompson going to handle playing next to, you know, an icon of the game like kd and was that going to hurt his growth somehow? Because he's going to be in his shadow. Is he going to defer too much? Like, everybody's kind of finding their place on this team and in this offense. And I, you know, I, I, I, I thought they would be just as tough as they were last year. I thought they might miss a little bit of Fred Van Vliet's just steadiness and Dylan Brooks's edge. But they have just kept marching on. And KD still looks phenomenal. Played I was the other night. Was he like, played 40 something minutes the other night? Dude is just eternal. It's great to see. So really impressed with the Rockets. We know what the Lakers have been doing. We've talked plenty about them. I, I just, I just think that for all of the Western Conference standings jockeying and everything else, it's, this game is still about. We get to see Katie and LeBron go at each other again on Christmas.

Logan Murdoch (35:42)

I'm gonna say this, man, it's really cool to see kdb, the OG of a team, like just a straight. It's like KD and the little homies. That's literally every time I watch the Rockets, it's, oh, yeah, like, KD is one of the most adaptable superstars that we've ever seen. Right? Like, he can really fit into pretty much any offense. I remember talking to, asking Amin Thompson, like, yo, what is the, what is it? What is it like playing against him? He was like, or playing with kd and he was like KD just said do me and he'll figure out the rest around me. Right? And I think that you've seen that and I think that you've seen. Whenever I watch the Rockets, they are like 10 seconds in a cloud of dust, right? Like they who? It's an equal opportunity. We don't have a point guard. Okay, Shangoon, you're just going to lead this offense and just go to the cup, right? It doesn't look great, but hey, whatever, Reed Shepherd, I mean shoot your threes, figure it out. We're just going to. It's one of the most LA fitness ass offenses I've ever seen and it works like they. What I loved about this and I said this earlier this season. Where is their offense is literally okay. We don't have Van Vlietz. So what? We're just going to put our foot on your neck? It's not going to be conventional. We're just going to go to the cup and then we're going to get opportunities outside of that. It's been really good to see. Yeah, man, I don't know. I think as a stocking stuffer though they still need a point guard. I think that's the biggest thing that they, they need even with Reed shepherd being good, he. They need someone that's going to be able to, you know, kind of settle them down. The. But the thing is I don't know which point guard is out there or if that point guard actually exists in this modern NBA, but there's a lot of times where I see their offense and I'm like, okay, if you, if, if a team just, you know, just says fuck this, we're going to just strap you down defensively, they don't necessarily have an identity other than we're just going to pass the ball to our great offensive players and see what happens. Right? It doesn't seem like there's a necessarily a plan for their offense and I do wonder if they do play a really good defensive team that they're going to strap them up because they don't necessarily have a plan, right? Like when I see Amin play point guard, he doesn't necessarily have the plan with the ball other than I'm going to go to the cup with this. So that's the thing that I would want to see them. I think that they need a point guard. For real. For real. Like I know that they've tried to push that away, but it's clearly obvious when you watch their, watch them on a night to night basis, they've played.

Howard Beck (38:08)

Well enough that I've started to believe that maybe they can get away with it. Right. But it's different in the postseason. The good news is what they're gonna.

Logan Murdoch (38:16)

Do real quick, real quick, what they're gonna do in the postseason is Durant's going to play the de facto point guard and then that's going to take away other opportunities for him offensively, right? And then on the defensive side, they're going to play, they're going to target Shangoon and they're going to target kd and that's going to be a problem.

Howard Beck (38:33)

All right. But the counter to that is like, so like I worry about a team that's like two. You know, the heliocentric offense is right where it was James Harden at his peak or even like the Knicks the last couple of years where it's like, you know, it's just going Brunson, you know, down the stretch over and over. And you can try, really try to take it out the ball out of his hands or crowd him like you. But though with the Rockets between Shangoon and Amen Thompson and KD and let's see how many more steps between now and the playoffs, Reed shepherd makes like there are a number of ways you can go so you're not, it's not quite as predictable or where you can just hone in on one guy and, and shut him down or take him out because they have other places they can go. They don't have that playmaker and that offensive organizer that we're talking about without Fred Van Vliet to kind of, of get that, all that moving and emotion. But I don't think it's just throw the ball to Katie and he's gonna ISO and then they're gonna take him out of it with like, like he can he. There are outlets there, there are release valves there. So they might be able to get away with it. My stocking stuffer for them was simply going to be Dorian Finney Smith, who was supposed to be one of the better signings of the summer and presumably was and may still be, but had left ankle surgery in June and has not played yet. There's some buzz about him possibly returning in January. And no, he's not Fred Van Vliet and he's not a point guard, but he's a super versatile plug and play front court player who can hit open threes, play D against a lot of different types of players and make them that much tougher and deeper. And in the end maybe that, you know, makes up for whatever they may be lacking on the other end.

Logan Murdoch (40:11)

Yeah, I mean, as impressive as the. The Rockets are, they inherently have a ceiling. You know, Like, I. I think their path to the finals is, like, avoiding Denver and OKC and. Or maybe getting them, like, later. And I don't think they're beating okc. I don't necessarily think that they're beating Denver in seven games, but put San.

Howard Beck (40:30)

Antonio in that conversation, too, by the way.

Logan Murdoch (40:33)

We're going to talk about them. We're going to talk about them next. Yeah, but I'm just saying it's a great segue. But you're right.

Howard Beck (40:38)

When we talk about who the Rockets have to get through, like, when we started the season, it was, are you good enough to beat Denver or okc? I think we got to put the spurs in that. In that question.

Logan Murdoch (40:47)

Well, let's have the conversation now. Let's talk about the Spurs. They're going to play okc. It's weird because they're playing OKC tonight. If you're listening to this podcast, you're probably going to be like, well, okay, they're going to play OKC at home tonight, and they're going to play okc, I believe, at OKC on Christmas Day. Wimby's return, you kind of saw not only the addition of WIMBY on in the NBA cup, but just uniquely how the spurs can play OKC defensively. It was. It's been a while since I seen OKC get strapped up the way they did in the NBA cup, and that was one of the greatest games this season. I want. This is. This is going to be like a budding rivalry. Right? Like, you know, OKC is supposed to be the next IT team. They are the it team, but they're the team that, you know, might be primed for a dynastic run. But it seems like Beck, San Antonio was like, wait, hold on, man. Hold on. We're here, too. Like, what have you seen from San Antonio? And, like, what do you think they can be for this back stretch of the season?

Howard Beck (41:50)

By the way, this one, the theme for this game, this is just the game of the day, period.

Logan Murdoch (41:53)

Oh, absolutely.

Howard Beck (41:54)

Forget angsty game, rivalry games, aging vets, whatever. This is just game of the day, period. I would watch these two teams play a hundred times in a row, and it's going to feel like they played 100 times in a row, because it's going to have been three times in about 10 days. Look, the rivalry is already there. Forget budding rivalry. Victor Wembanyama after they beat the Thunder in that cup game, talking about this little subtle dig where he's talking about he's just proud to be part of a team that plays ethical basketball. And like, nobody just says that without intent when the team you just beat is Oklahoma City Thunder, where they're constantly being accused, Shay specifically, of something less than ethical basketball. By the way, I clicked on a single Instagram video the other day about somebody breaking down why they don't like Shay's game and the foul drawing and all that. My entire Instagram feed is now nothing but those. Thank you, Instagram algorithm. Good Lord. A lot of people apparently don't really enjoy watching the Thunder because of Shea, but Wemby vs Chet is already a thing. Wemby and the spurs brand of basketball versus the Thunder brand, whatever. However you want to define those things. And I'm not one who's criticizing the way the Thunder play at all. I enjoy them. But that's a thing that's out there. And it is a conversation among NBA basket, NBA fans. And these two teams, based on their profile and their age, are going to be going at each other for the next five to 10 years potentially. And like that, they are matched up on Christmas. Again, credit to the league. This was a great call on the schedule. Even if we didn't have them already facing each other in the cup, which we didn't, obviously couldn't have known what was going to happen. Love it, Love it. Love all of it.

Logan Murdoch (43:49)

I gotta push back a little bit. I've seen OKC play quite a few times this season. I think they're awesome to watch. I think they're great. Like, even. I think Shay's awesome to watch. And I think he's great too. I think he's leveled up on his passing. I think that he. I mean, it takes a real skill to try to draw fouls, bro. Like, I don't, I don't know what else people are. It is what it is.

Howard Beck (44:08)

People are just being about it, frankly. It's, it's, it's a, it's a pretty annoying. Of all the, like, general themes around the NBA this season or over the last couple of years, that one's just annoying. Just stop complaining, folks. Like, we, We've seen more egregious foul baiting in NBA history and we have seen players who are more manipulative. And then this. I, I don't, I don't quite understand all the backlash toward Shay. I'm just reporting that it's out there and my entire instagram feed is now full of it because I clicked on a single video.

Logan Murdoch (44:43)

You're bad. You better click on some other videos. Do they need stocking stuffers? Do this. Do these teams need gifts?

Howard Beck (44:49)

These teams probably don't need a damn thing. I guess the spurs, if I was going to give them a stocking stuff, are like, maybe one more three and D wing. They're like, they're. They're 17th in three pointers made per game. They could use a little bit more juice there, but my gosh, they've got. They've got so much firepower as it is. They can win other ways. So, like, I. I'm reaching to even find a stocking stuffer for them. And the Thunder, like, their stocking is already, like, burst at the seams, right? Like, there's. It's. Everybody was giving them stocking stuffers of draft picks.

Logan Murdoch (45:22)

They have a stocking of draft picks.

Howard Beck (45:24)

That's all it is.

Logan Murdoch (45:25)

Just completely draft picks. They're fine.

Howard Beck (45:28)

Including, of course, we should note for the umpteenth time at this moment, they would have the Clippers pick, which is positioned fourth in the 2026 lottery. The Jazz are in eighth right now, so they would keep their pick. But if the Jazz slip to ninth or below, either by record or because of the lottery, which is still in play, I would go to them too. So. Yeah, still in play. Still in play. Insane.

Logan Murdoch (45:49)

Now let's talk about the Timberwolves and the Nuggets. Timberwolves are. Are. They're a fun team to watch. I love it. They're like my Peacock special. Every time I see them, I always seem to watch them when they come on Peacock is like the west coast game. They're fun to watch, but, like, I just feel like they have a. A bit of a ceiling around Ant because, like, I feel like every time I watch them, I'm like, damn. When it comes to the playoffs, they're just gonna. Their offense is just gonna be Ant and he's gonna get defended very well. I know Bones Highland has been playing really well this season, but I don't know if he's a playoff secondary scorer. So I feel like they're one of my favorite regular season teams that are going to give me heartbreak when the. When the postseason comes. Nuggets are. I mean, they have injuries, but the Nuggets are the Nuggets, man. As long as Jokers is on the floor, there are a. They are going to be a juggernaut, and they're so in tune with their offense and they have so many play like when, when Gordon gets back and, you know, they have their full, you know, complement of players. They're going to be fine. So I. But what do you think going into this game? This is going to be like, this is like the sneaky good, like, night game that always happens, right? You get your, when you, when you get all your presents and you're kind of like tinkering with your presence. You got the, all the lights. I used to have this when I, when I was a kid. I used to like, this is when I was sneak in a room like one of the, like my grandma's like, like man caves or whatever and just watch this last night game. This is the game that I like to watch.

Howard Beck (47:18)

Sneaky good game at 10:30 Eastern Time.

Logan Murdoch (47:23)

Yeah, but that's, y', all, that's West Coast. West coast is just fine. It's perfectly fine. It's right before we go to sleep.

Howard Beck (47:28)

This is the Red Bull game of the day. This is the Red Bull Mountain Dew and a, you know, jug of your favorite coffee.

Logan Murdoch (47:38)

I.

Howard Beck (47:40)

I just want to talk about Jamal Murray for a second because we talk so much about Jokic. This is a team that's down. Two starters. Christian Brown and Aaron Gordon are out. The Nuggets are cruising along 21 and 7 on pace for their first 60 win season. With Jokic, by the way, you realize they've never cracked 60.

Logan Murdoch (47:58)

Well, yeah, because they get lazy at the end of the year. Be fine.

Howard Beck (48:02)

Yeah, Speaking of caffeine, we should, that should be their stocking stuffers. Just like a big case of, of Red Bull or something for the late part of the season when they usually are kind of like hitting the snooze bar and like, yeah, we're some Taco Bell. Wake us up. Yeah, wake us up in late April. Do you know the last time the Nuggets as a franchise had a 60 win season? Logan Murdoch.

Logan Murdoch (48:19)

I looked this up.09.

Howard Beck (48:22)

You got to go back a lot further. They were still in the ABA.

Logan Murdoch (48:26)

Oh, wow. Okay.

Howard Beck (48:28)

They've had 260 win seasons. 74, 70.

Logan Murdoch (48:31)

Wait, that was your, that was your first year on the beat, huh?

Howard Beck (48:34)

Stop it. 74, 75. They won 65 games. They won 60 the next season, have not cracked 60 since. Their highest with Jokic was 57 wins in the 2023, 24 season. But Jamal Murray, he's having his best season. He may actually finally make the all star team and maybe even all NBA for the first time. Like he's been that guy, like best player not to Be an all star in his career of this era. 25 points a game, career high. 6.6 assists by a tad, a career high. 4.3 rebounds, career high. Shooting 40, 45.8% from three by far, career high. He's shooting career high from two. He's also got career highs and free throws attempted and free throws made. Jamal Murray's just ballin. He's been fantastic and everything gets overshadowed when you're in yic's universe. So I just wanted to. To. To note that the Nuggets have been fantastic. Every bit as good as we expected. And that's despite the fact that Aaron Gordon hasn't played in weeks and Christian Brown's been out, I think even longer than that. So. No, like this is, you know, for the. For the Timberwolves back to back years in the conference finals and they have been great and they have been one of the teams that could actually kind of mess with Yokich a little bit because of their wealth of bigs. But I feel like every time these teams meet each other, this is a barometer for the Wolves in particular. Right. I don't care how many times you've beaten the Nuggets in the past. Like, this is. This is kind of your. This is your testing ground if you're Minnesota.

Logan Murdoch (50:05)

Yeah. What are your stocking stuffers?

Howard Beck (50:11)

Fountain of youth for Mike Conley. Can we find it? I mean, it's out there somewhere. Because if it's not that, then they need a point guard. I mean, you talk about like you wanted the Rockets to get a point guard.

Logan Murdoch (50:21)

The Wolves.

Howard Beck (50:21)

The Wolves need one first.

Logan Murdoch (50:23)

But the thing is the. I think about this with the Rockets and I think about the Timberwolves. What point guard is really going to help them at this point? Right. Like there's smoke that. I forgot it was a Lou Williams or somebody said that James Harden should go back to Houston. I'm like, no, stop. Like that's not gonna help that.

Howard Beck (50:39)

Not the right fit.

Logan Murdoch (50:41)

Like, does James Harden go to Minnesota? No, that's. That doesn't seem to be a fit either. Right. Like who are the. Who are the point guards right now? Like the Celtics aren't getting up off of Derrick White who would be I think a perfect compliment. I think for in Houston. He would be similar of a compliment in Minnesota, but he's not available. Like, I just don't know.

Howard Beck (51:02)

Yeah.

Logan Murdoch (51:02)

What these two teams do in this point guard market.

Howard Beck (51:06)

This is never going to happen. In part because of. Of circumstance probably and in part just because of salary. I Looked through this a couple weeks ago, trying to figure it out. But like Drew Holiday would be perfect. Right. You're looking for like a more functional version of Mike Conley. Right. Somebody who's a consummate team player and offensive organizer. Veteran who has seen it all, done it all. Drew Holiday, multiple time champion like Drew Holiday would be perfect there. Maybe C.J. mcCollum doesn't bring the, the defensive aspect of it in the same way, but can organize your offense. Another veteran presence type. But again, salary issues and everything else. Like, I just, I don't see how you could pull it off. They've, I think, been linked. I think Jake Fisher reported today that they're among the teams that are keeping an eye on Colin Sexton in Charlotte. I don't like. Sexton's not that type of point guard. He's more of just a scorer. But you know, they do just need another guy who could just handle the ball, period, reliably. And you know, they're young guys who they've, they've taken the last couple of drafts, haven't been able to, to handle that yet. So fountain of use for Mike Conley or a younger point guard. And my stocking stuffer for the Nuggets was simply some combination of Red Bull and Xboxes. Just something to keep them entertained for the next few months while they're waiting for the playoffs. Because they do seem to get bored right around March every year.

Logan Murdoch (52:26)

You're like, they lost to who in April? Like what? They lost to the Kings without. No. And the Kings had no one. How did that happen?

Howard Beck (52:34)

Yeah.

Logan Murdoch (52:35)

Yeah. But they also, like, the thing that I think that the Denver Nuggets have is they have a chip on their shoulder this season. Right. Like, especially after the way last year went, how they lost to okc. You could see this. I haven't seen a chip on their shoulder even when they were winning titles quite like they have right now. Now. So we'll see what happens. Let's go to. Are you going to this game? Nick's Cavs?

Howard Beck (52:57)

I don't think I'll be going to that game. No.

Logan Murdoch (53:00)

Okay. Okay.

Howard Beck (53:01)

You know, I, I spent 16 years as a beat writer, Logan, as you may know, I, I spent a lot of Christmases in NBA arenas because of. It was what the schedule called for. It was what the job called for. So when you have the option to just watch from home, kind of pleasant. So, yeah, I'll be watching Cavs and Knicks from the comfort of my couch.

Logan Murdoch (53:23)

All right, I, I get that. I. The Cavs are just so disappointing this season, you know, in all, in all ways. I, I, I. What do you hope for the Cavaliers? You've seen them more than I have just being in the Eastern Conference. Like what, what do they have to do to find their mojo again? Because it seems like they've hit a ceiling and I don't know where they go from here. Right. Because I think that they need to pivot. They're the consummate great on paper team, but when it's time to actually be a great team, they always seem to fold. And now it seems like in the regular season they've just cratered. So like what gives with the Cleveland Cavaliers?

Howard Beck (54:01)

There's a lot of different ways to interpret this or spin this. There's no way to spin the record and the results. Right. You were supposed to be the best or one of the two best teams in the Eastern Conference and you are just kind of trudging along right now. 16 and 14, 10th offense, 16th in defense, 12th net rating. They're, they are the epitome of meh right now. And I think if people want to interpret it and say like maybe chemistry issues or there's been some like minor buzzing about maybe it's a, you know, have they, have they already tuned out Kenny Atkinson like that? That seems a little far fetched to me. I've heard people speculate on it, but like it's, it's way too early for that. They have been racked by injury now when they've been healthy. They've still been a little meh frankly. But look, Max Stru has yet to play. Darius Garland's played in 14 out of 30 games. Jared Allen's played in 19. Sam Merrill has played in 13. Larry Nance Jr's played in 16 last year. Their fifth, sixth and seventh players in minutes played total minutes for the season were Sam Merrill, Ty Jerome and Max Struse. Sam Merrill has been really limited. 13 games as I said. Ty Jerome of course left and hasn't played anyway and Max Truce hasn't played. So like, and those, that trio was also their third, fourth and fifth best players in three pointers made. So they've lost a lot of just rotational guys and some defense and a lot of three pointers and they are way down in three points, three point shooting this year. They're, they're shooting 34%, 22nd in the league. They were second in the NBA in three point shooting at 38% last season. So if they just got their three point shooting in order, they'd be In a lot better shape. But yeah, just a real muck of a season right now. I, I think they have to wait till they get healthy before you start thinking in extreme terms like is it time to break up that big four? They've got the highest payrol plus tax burden in the league. But before you start talking about trading Darius Garland, who's starting to play a lot better that that toe issue had been lingering for a while. Before you start talking about trading Jared Allen, like, I think you got to get healthy, get your, your big four back together and Max Druce and then see where you're at. DeAndre Hunter's shooting will rebound.

Logan Murdoch (56:19)

They are who they are though, man. Like you know, in the playoffs.

Howard Beck (56:22)

I agree. In the playoffs, I agree. Right. Like you said it classic on paper team. And then the playoffs they are they.

Logan Murdoch (56:30)

The new Atlanta Hawks? Are they like the new like 082016 Atlanta Hawks?

Howard Beck (56:36)

Their talent levels higher than those Hawks teams that you're talking about. I think that's, that's a little too disrespectful.

Logan Murdoch (56:40)

One of those hawks teams won 60 games though.

Howard Beck (56:44)

Yeah, that was one of the weirdest 60 win seasons of all time. No, this, the Cavs are Donovan Mitchell's better than anybody. That was on that. That was like Jeff Teague, Paul Millsap, Al Horford, Kyle Korver. Like, come on.

Logan Murdoch (56:59)

That was the LA fitness team that just has dudes who know how to play basketball. They're not necessarily stars. They just know where their spots are. They know how to get the screens. It was, you know, that was a fun, yeah, fun team until they, you know, got beat by LeBron.

Howard Beck (57:11)

I've been skeptical of this Cavaliers team ever since that first year. So in the Donovan Mitchell era. Right. He got there in 2022 and I've been skeptical of them ever since. They just got their butts kicked by the Knicks in, in the first round of the playoffs that year and just looked like deer in headlights, especially in the games at the Garden. So I was looking this up. In the Donovan Mitchell era of the Cavs, they are 7 and 10 against the Knicks and 3 and 5 at the Garden, including the playoffs. They did win both games of the Garden last year and went 40 against the Knicks last year. I think the Cavs couldn't lose last year in the regular season, but I think it's fair to still have doubts about them as a postseason team given their flame outs the last couple of years. Yeah.

Logan Murdoch (57:58)

Let's talk quickly about the Knicks man, Mike Brown. No transformative season. Are you buying it?

Howard Beck (58:05)

Yeah, I'm buying it. I mean, transformative is too strong of a term for a team that was already one of the best in the Eastern Conference.

Logan Murdoch (58:13)

And well, they seem to be loving this, this, this change. The Knicks team seems to be loving it, right? Like, it seems like they, they are enjoying this new Mike Brown, right, who seems to. And it's early, right. Like me and you have both covered Mike Brown in different capacities, right. But it seems like he's kind of taking his foot off the gas in a good way. We'll see how long that sticks.

Howard Beck (58:33)

This is a classic and this cuts across all sports. It's the classic version of, you know, when you had the, the hard driving old school coach and you flipped to the player friendly version. And I know Mike Brown has a lot of old school qualities to him, but he is a much kinder, gentler and more jovial and communicative and enjoyable version. Like, compared to Tib. Like, Tibs was just a constant stick in the mud and there's only so much Tibs anybody wants to listen to after a while. We've seen this over and over in his various stops. Mike Brown, like, it's, it's a, it's a whole different vibe, but also fundamentally, functionally, they have diversified their offense. They like Jalen Brunson still playing a lot of minutes. He's still taking a lot of shots, he's still scoring a lot. But the, the, he is not the only one with the ball in his hands in, in critical times or throughout a game. Mikhail Bridges is getting more ball handling responsibilities. They've got a little bit better bench, so that's helped. They're playing like guys like Tyler Kolek. Kolek couldn't get off the bench last year and he was a rookie, so maybe he was just more ready this season. But Mike Brown is willing to go with a deeper bench. He's willing to, you know, the offense has more dynamism to it. There's more ball and player movement. It took them a little bit to get used to it. And I know you and Raja went deep on, on the Knicks on Friday, so we don't have to get too far into it. But like, no, I think Mike Brown has been like, Tibbs did an incredible job for them. And I, and I still don't know to this day, was it, was it the right time to, to fire Tibbs or to make a coaching change? Was it justifiable? People can argue that till the end, but the early returns on, on the Mike Brown era, I think, are really good. The Knicks are second in offensive efficiency right now, 14th in defense, fourth in net rating. They're on pace for 58 wins, which would be their highest since the early 90s. They have not cracked 55 since the 1996 last time they got 60.

Logan Murdoch (60:28)

Yeah. Or 58. Said it was in the 90s. Right.

Howard Beck (60:31)

They're on 93. They're on pace for 58. So that would be the highest since they got 57 in. I think I just said it. 96. 97.

Logan Murdoch (60:41)

All right.

Cliff (60:41)

So.

Logan Murdoch (60:41)

All right.

Howard Beck (60:42)

Their last 60 win season was. Take a guess.

Logan Murdoch (60:48)

93.

Howard Beck (60:48)

92. 93. There you go.

Logan Murdoch (60:53)

Look at me, I'm out here. Historian out here. Check me out. Okay, let's. You know what, I didn't know we were going to do this, but let's get Cliff in here for mailbag time, see if we got some questions.

Cliff (61:05)

Fellas, fellas, fellas. What's good, man? Thanks for calling me up on the bullpen. Howard. How we feeling? Logan, how we feeling? Let's get to the mailbag. Let's get to some questions. Talked to Howard back earlier today. Let's get to this first one here. This is from Kayla Liss. Kayla Liss, understanding stats in a higher scoring error. Hi, Big fan of the pod. Been listening since the first episode and haven't missed one since during the scoring boom. How should we contextualize stat lines when we compare them across errors? For example, when we say the only people to average X many points for X many games were Jordan, Oscar, and Jokic. How should we understand that stat when people are scoring more points on a regular basis? Keep it up, Kayla.

Logan Murdoch (61:49)

That's interesting. I think that you got to kind of have the context of what the game was like, right? And I think it does ebb and flow. Like Oscar's time, it was still a wide open game. It was kind of in a weird way, like the game is now, but without the three point line. And so like you were able to get more points, steals, rebounds and assists. Right. Same with Wilt Chamberlain. So you got to just kind of take it with the. The nuance of what the game was at that point and then compare contrast based on that.

Howard Beck (62:18)

It is really tough. And I think about this a lot because records are falling, it seems like all the time. Like every year you have three teams with the highest efficiency, offensive efficiency in NBA history. Right. Like those numbers just fall constantly because of the pace of the game and because of the three point explosion in the last five to ten years. Like, it. It's really hard to. Like, it was always hard to compare eras. The style of the game changes. And obviously athletes over time evolve training methods, medicine, everything. So it was already difficult. But no, like, this is a great question from Kayla because I think about this a lot. We get records, get obliterated. Guys in the modern era looked like, like just, you know, giants compared to the players of yesteryear. And I mean figuratively, not literally. It's just really hard to put anything in context anymore. I feel like we need. I don't know if anyone's created this, one of you enterprising analytics folks out there, if this does not already exist. A website that actually just like, normalized everything, right? Adjusts for everything, for pace, for era, for the three point shot and just I want to be able to compare, you know, what it meant that Oscar averaged his triple double in the early 70s versus whatever the version of today is. Like, I want to be able. Like we talk about, like, oh, people like, either go with Michael Jordan would have just like killed in this era or he would have somehow been diminished, which is, like, ludicrous. But, like, I do want. I would love to have, like, at least the statistical balancing where we could compare across the board. It still won't answer the question right, but it's a thing. Plus, we also have Basketball Reference and Stat Head, which are great tools, but which are abused constantly, especially on social media. So if you're one of those people on social media who's constantly going to Basketball Reference and Stat Head and doing the. This player is the first guy to ever, ever average exactly 21.2 points, you know, 12.3 rebounds. Like, stop doing the thing where we just set all the parameters to make the thing that your favorite player just did the first time in history stop it. It's annoying.

Logan Murdoch (64:32)

Hell yeah. Next question.

Cliff (64:34)

Let's get to another question here. This is from Kidder Lindley. Would love for you guys to each identify a player who was never any good in the NBA that you are still somewhat shocked. Never panned out as a star in the NBA. Players who got injured not included. Kidder Lindley.

Logan Murdoch (64:53)

Go ahead, Beck. I mean, I know you saw this question first. I'm thinking right now.

Howard Beck (64:58)

I saw it earlier and I'm still thinking. Shout out to Kidder, who I spoke with over the weekend. He's a senior in college working on his thesis, so we chatted a little bit. Can I. Can I go right in your backyard? Can we play the Anthony Randolph card here?

Logan Murdoch (65:14)

Oh, my goodness, bro, were you at that. Were you at that summer league?

Howard Beck (65:19)

I. I was at that summer league, but also, like, Anthony Randolph was part of, I believe, the David Lee signing trade. So he landed here in New York when I was still covering the Knicks. And like, everything about him, like, go, folks, if you don't remember Anthony Randolph, go back and look at the clips. And like, he was supposed to be another, like, Kevin Garnett type, right? He was tall, he was like whatever, 611 long range. He could handle the ball, could do every. Like, he was supposed to be one of those revolutionary unicorn type bigs, and it just never happened. But, yeah, we all believed at a certain point for a while.

Logan Murdoch (65:56)

I'm trying to think, man, like, who I was just like, this dude is going to be awesome. Like, I don't. It's tough because every, like, I don't know, I. That there are guys that exist like this, but I don't know, like, was. I don't know. You guys, are you looking?

Cliff (66:15)

No, no, I got one. I got one. Evan Turner for me.

Logan Murdoch (66:19)

I'm sorry to hear that.

Cliff (66:20)

Like, Evan Turner was like a solid NBA player. Like, not saying, you know, he was trash or nothing like that. No, but first of all, nobody's trash that makes it to the NBA. Evan Turner was a solid NBA player, but when he came to the Sixers, like, that was coming off the Ohio State the run, he was going crazy. College player of the year. And you know, he came to the Sixers, it just. It never. It never truly fit. But then they really weren't trying to win games anyway, so he was always kind of, you know, on borrowed time here. So Evan Turner, for me, you know who.

Logan Murdoch (66:47)

Somebody that, like, I was like, why isn't this person better? Because he has spurts. Marcus Thornton. Does anybody remember Marcus Thornton? Yeah, from the Kings. We're like, on random nights, he would get buckets, bro, and like, literally lead the Kings to win by himself. And this was on teams with demarcus and Tyreek Evans. And I remember watching him just like, yo, why. Why isn't he. Why am I seeing him ball out? But why isn't he one doing it consistently? And why are people seeing this? Like, Marcus Thornton is a dude right now. And he went to another team and didn't get as many shots. And it really went into the theory that Roger always says is, somebody got it. There's a. There's a finite amount of points that people got to make. And he was the one that was making all the lion's share of the points. But he Would, like, go on heaters. So Marcus Thornton would be my guy.

Howard Beck (67:35)

Tyreek Evans, who you just mentioned, would have been another one in this category, actually. Right. Beat Steph Curry and Brandon Jennings for rookie of the Year and looked awesome. Big guard, could do everything.

Cliff (67:45)

Philly.

Howard Beck (67:46)

And he flamed out quick.

Logan Murdoch (67:47)

You know what's funny? I remember being in the locker room and DeMarcus, like, he was talking to the great Marty McNeil, and he said that he pointed at himself and he pointed at Tyreek Evans. This is after a game and said, our jerseys are going to be retired here. That didn't age well. But, yeah, Tyree gave us. He was. He just. I think after that rookie year, like, remember, he had, like, the LeBron comparisons during that rookie year. And then, like, he just never got a jump shot. Got some personal issues and stuff like that. But, yeah, he had that one good year. Yeah. I'm sure Steph is kicking himself, like, damn, bro. Like, I would just play, you know, couple more games really, really well. I should have got that. But, yeah, we have one more. Is that it?

Cliff (68:35)

If y' all want to do one more. We could do one more.

Logan Murdoch (68:38)

It's Christmas. Let's do one more.

Cliff (68:40)

It is Christmas. Let's do this question here. This is from Andrew Gomez. Andrew Gomez, Day one listener. Andrew from Chicago. I'm gonna keep it simple, please. What do my Bulls have to do to be good and relevant again? I feel like they have to have a new owner in order to see a big difference. Jerry is satisfied with just being mediocre. Playing team that just sells tickets to make money, but doesn't care about the product. That is from Andrew Gomez. Shout out to Chi Town and you say shot city.

Logan Murdoch (69:10)

I don't know, man. Get lucky with a draft pick. I don't know, man. It's. It's really tough. Like, the Bulls are, like, just consistently just average now. And it sucks, man. Cause, you know, they have a. They've been living off of that Bulls run of the 90s for decades now, right? They had the Ben Gordon teams, they had the Joachim Noah teams, they had the Derrick Rose teams. I think Derrick Rose getting hurt and not really living up to his full potential really messed up a run. I don't know if they win a championship necessarily, but, like, you know that they're still recovering from that in a lot of ways. I don't know. Get lucky. Sorry. You got anything more profound?

Howard Beck (69:51)

I don't know about more profound? The first step to not being a perpetually mediocre team, by the way, I Tried. I did this exercise a few weeks back too. I was trying to figure out are the Chicago Bulls the most mediocre team of the last like decade, the most consistently in the middle. And from what I was able to figure out with just, you know, jotting down like records and rankings and everything else over the course of a 10 year span, I think that Chicago Bulls are the most average NBA franchise of the last 10. And by the way, that could be good too because there are a lot of teams that are like the most shitty NBA franchises that are perpetually just losers. They've at least been consistently in the middle. You know how to get out of the middle. Stop being satisfied with being mediocre. Like this first step to not being a perpetually mediocre team is to decide that it's okay to occasionally lose for the sake of winning later. Stop being intentionally mediocre. Chicago Bulls, this has been their agenda for the last decade. They are not just satisfied with, but seem to be actively aiming for every year to finish somewhere between 7th and 10th in the Eastern Conference, play a play in game or two and have an early summer. That's it. That's the agenda. They have signed the kind of players who trap you there. They have consistently made the kind of moves that keep you there. And congratulations Sacramento Kings, on deciding to just be the west coast version of them. I guess I will say I don't even.

Logan Murdoch (71:13)

You get. I think you disrespected the Bulls by saying that. I get what you're saying. What they have all the former Bulls, but Jesus, I'm just saying I'm not giving the Kings even that much.

Howard Beck (71:23)

And look modest. Bouzelis shows flashes and is really intriguing and a really fun player. And the, the Caruso Giddy trade has actually worked out pretty well for them. Giddy's been really good. They've got some pieces now. Kobe, White, like they've got. They've got some players but like we know in this league if you don't have a top 10 guy or a couple of top 20 guys, you're probably still going to be somewhere stuck in the middle and as good as the players. Some of the players they have are and, and are, are fun and entertaining and they can win some games and compete. They don't have the guy. They still don't have the guy. So there's only a couple of ways to get that guy. And the Bulls have decided not to use one of those tools, which is being a really bad team that's high in the lottery. They've just opted out of that entirely for so long and now the NBA is going to like institute more anti tanking rules. So the Bulls may have missed their window to actually try to game the system the way that the other teams have. Oops.

Logan Murdoch (72:23)

So sorry. Sorry. Chicago. Great town though.

Howard Beck (72:26)

I'm sorry, Andrew. That was a really depressing Christmas response.

Logan Murdoch (72:31)

And to be fair, Andrew knew the job was dangerous when he took it. Yo, just, I hope, I don't know, Cubs fan, socks fan. I don't know how they're doing but hey, you know, hey, you're wearing a.

Howard Beck (72:40)

Socks hat today, Logan. What was that?

Logan Murdoch (72:43)

I am, but that has, it's more just because like it's cool, you know, some west coast. All right.

Howard Beck (72:48)

You didn't, you didn't know Andrew was writing us today?

Logan Murdoch (72:51)

No, I don't, I, I don't be looking at the, the. I like to get surprised by the questions and then just going off vibes off that one. Anyways, we've given you guys an hour and 10 minutes. I am going to lay down because I am missing. I don't know. Let me start that over because. Let me start that over. All right, that's been another edition of Real Ones. I am Logan Murdoch. I am going to go enjoy my holiday. That is Howard Beck. He is also going to enjoy his holiday, his very cold holiday. If you want great mailbags like this, make sure you email Realms my bag@gmail.com realm.com realonesmailbag gmail.com I am not. I'm gonna miss you and Raja on Friday, but it's gonna be a dope show. Beck and Raja on Friday. Make sure you tap in with them. Maybe. Or maybe maybe you'll win. We're one of the week. We'll see. Tap in. Ah, all the shits. Bye. Must be 21 years and older and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with the Kansas Star Casino. Or 18 and older and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rghelp.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org backslash chatincenetic or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helplinema.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.