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- [00:00]
Kyle Mann
Foreign.
- [00:17]
Justin Ferrier
Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Ferrier. And joining me, Rob Mahoney. J. Kyle Mann. Bright and early on this Memorial Day. Happy Memorial Day. Are you looking for some leaf blowers, Rob? Like, what do we got going on here? How are you celebrating?
- [00:32]
Rob Mahoney
Not by buying a leaf blower. You know, not all of us can flex our property owning privilege like you can, Justin. It may be nice for you out there, but the rest of us are just scraping by. We're just trying to make ends meet.
- [00:42]
Kyle Mann
I have a leaf blower, Justin. You have one as well. Are we in the club?
- [00:46]
Justin Ferrier
I bought a corded one. So when you have to plug it into the wall. And I've regretted it ever since.
- [00:51]
Kyle Mann
Well, and your yard's that small, you can probably get away with that, right? Or at least an extension cord. I tell you guys, hey, man, your money goes out here and little whenever we have more space here. I would say that. But I also am of the mind of like, you know, selling the virtues of. Of. Of life here. But also I kind of like when people talk trash because then that means they won't come here. That's what I was going to say. So I'm all about that.
- [01:13]
Rob Mahoney
Keeping Louisville.
- [01:15]
Kyle Mann
Oh, I just. When people go and on it, they're just like, oh, Louisville. I'm like, no, it's fine. Don't come. We like it. We like it chill here. We don't want to turn into Nashville. We're not interested in that. But I was gonna say Memorial Day is this funny thing. It has it in common with, you know, know, like Labor Day or fourth of July, where I go through this annual cycle of realizing I want a grill on those days and then not thinking about it the other. The rest of the year. And then. And then going a full calendar and coming back and be like, man, it'd be nice to grill today, but we'll. I don't know that we're ever going to break out of that cycle.
- [01:46]
Rob Mahoney
Well, this is the difference between you and me, Kyle, is I have reached a point in my life where I spend 80% of my waking moments wanting a grill. So it's just a. It's just a constant background thought. And today it is unfortunate that I have to confront it more overtly. But, you know, we'll figure out a way to. To get some wings or hot dogs or burgers going in our own right. It just. It may take a little maneuvering.
- [02:06]
Justin Ferrier
So what do you do instead? You got like a hot plate situation going?
- [02:09]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, I do I do have a grill pan, but it's not the same. No one can pretend it's the same.
- [02:14]
Justin Ferrier
Well, speaking of being char broiled, we got to talk about the Cleveland Cavaliers a little bit later. But first we got to talk about the big old series that is now tied two two spurs thunder. But first, let's take a break. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. The conference finals are here. Think you know how it'll go down? Take your shot with FanDuel and get closer to the action. FanDuel is the best place to bet the team's players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 plus select states 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 1-888-789777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. All right, we're broadcasting to you live to tape Monday morning after a big game four. So we have a chance now to reset. I feel like we've gotten lucky of late. Every Monday or every couple Mondays, it's been like the end of a round. We get a chance to do some variables action but right now we have a just a blank slate in Spurs Thunder, three games to decide this whole thing. Rob, how you just feeling in general about this entire series? What's like your big picture view of what's going on here?
- [03:33]
Rob Mahoney
A little bummed. I, I think as many of us are by some of the injury specifics but overall lived up to my expectations. It's been a super fun series to watch. We're seeing just like the challenging and ascendance of some of the great stars in the game. I, I don't know that you can ask a lot more of a conference final than this, especially when you flash across to the east and you see everything that sometimes the conference finals can be as far as like how, how quickly and unceremoniously some teams get dismissed.
- [04:00]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, we're seeing on the other side how bad it can be. Like Rob was saying. But there are a ton of different storylines going on. It's just fun to see this, this team, this, this defending champ be met with these problems that they're being met with, you know, the ascending Wemby, the ascend sending Stefan Castle who was, you know, we'll talk more about him who was forged in the fires of hell that guy. I, I, I was struck last night watching the speed and the athleticism of this game and it kind of flashed me Back to like 2010, 2011 OKC. That's what it most reminds me of in terms of like the, the young athleticism that's ready ahead of schedule. It's like this spurs team really does remind me of that Harden, Westbrook, Durant thing. And it's kind of a one to one analog in an interesting way. Except the Durant in this situation is 7 foot 4, 7 foot 5.
- [04:49]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, well, it's funny. Yeah. Because we don't ever have the whole like, will it be Russ or Harden with any of the guards going on with the Spurs. Perhaps we've moved along, but. Right. Maybe we just haven't gotten to that point yet. I'd like to believe that perhaps we're more evolved as a discourse, but if anything, we're probably the exact opposite. We're worse than ever before. But I have five big questions on the docket for you guys as we kind of turn the page, reset, and kind of look forward.
- [05:17]
Rob Mahoney
Justin, before we dive into the questions, I need to understand your mind. Like what to you separates a capital B, capital Q, big question from a variable.
- [05:29]
Justin Ferrier
Just the appropriate framing.
- [05:31]
Kyle Mann
It's just marketing a little bit. Wow.
- [05:34]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, No, I would say variables tend to be specific themes or bigger picture sorts of things. Things. These are just like questions that are about the series and associated questions, as we've learned along the way. One's maybe like a 10,000 foot view. One's more of like a 10 foot view.
- [05:55]
Rob Mahoney
You know, a 10 foot view. I thought we're at least getting up in the air a little bit. We're at least like a drone.
- [06:01]
Justin Ferrier
Well, for us, 10ft is a lot. We're not all 72 over here, buddy.
- [06:05]
Rob Mahoney
You know, it's a fair point.
- [06:07]
Kyle Mann
I was trying to think last night when we were watching the game because there was a play where Wimby had like a really casual dunk where he didn't jump. And I was like, what's the height of the basketball goal? Because that it would have to be for me to operate the way that Wimy does. And I was like, is I was seven foot? Because I was like, I think it's seven feet. My friend was like, dude, if you put your arms in the air, it's se like, you know you're gonna get to seven feet. And I was like, it still might be seven feet. I gotta, I don't really. Rob's bigger. I definitely had that thought process during the game last night.
- [06:37]
Justin Ferrier
He's always hanging on the, the, the, the net too. I'm always like, is that a casual.
- [06:42]
Rob Mahoney
Hang on.
- [06:42]
Kyle Mann
Hanging on the. Yeah, that was like, what on earth.
- [06:45]
Rob Mahoney
It's just a flex, you know, it's just a, you know, a little reminder that, hey, I'm out here. I am indeed this tall. This is this easy for me.
- [06:52]
Justin Ferrier
Right? He does it with the ease of someone who's like taller than someone and they put their arm over their, their head and rest on it just to like kind of big boy them.
- [07:00]
Rob Mahoney
That was me with the two of you as we did all of our group chat, like promotional photo shoots.
- [07:05]
Kyle Mann
That was an awful day. That was an awful day. I never considered the.
- [07:09]
Rob Mahoney
They asked for it. They demanded that I do that to the two of you. So maybe they big boy do more than I did.
- [07:15]
Kyle Mann
Could we not get some like forced perspective? Justin and I should have insisted on some like Peter Jackson, like, you know, let's make some make. Let's. Let's even it out a little bit. It was just. That was. I never considered the leg extension surgery until that day. That was. I thought about it briefly.
- [07:31]
Justin Ferrier
Or at least get like the De Niro shoes. Like do you remember the scenes from behind the Scenes of the Irishman? And they're all wearing like 10 foot platforms in order to be the same size. Need some of those Anyway. All right, five big questions. Big ones, not just normal ones as Rob is alluding to first and foremost, other than star power. So we're going to talk about Wemby, we're going to talk about Shay. But I'm.
- [07:52]
Rob Mahoney
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- [08:24]
Justin Ferrier
I'm talking about anything beyond that. What's kind of going to be determining this series? Like one word for it? I'm actually going to nominate myself here. Can I go first, please? Because I do think a lot about depth just in general, both with the series, but also with the Thunder in their kind of run over the past couple years. So even in this game, before it got to garbage time, they played 11 guys, and that's without J Dub, without AJ Mitchell. They have played their most used lineup this playoffs. It only has 70 minutes thus far and we're already in midway through the conference finals. It is at times like their biggest strength, and I have to wonder if we're looking for counters, which we'll do later. Like, what can Mark Dagnal go to? There are a lot of options here in order to figure things out, and so I have faith that the Thunder can figure something out still. On the other hand, this is the first game I felt like the depth just wasn't enough. And perhaps what they actually needed was some of those more traditional star qualities because they lacked J Dub, they lacked AJ Mitchell, and all of a sudden they single guard SGA and they put a little bit more emphasis on guarding some of the kickout shooters and everything else. And all those guys seemed a little bit more pedestrian. And you're wondering, where is this big old next wave going to come from? Where is the help going to come from for sga? More of a typical, like, conversation around a star who isn't meeting our expectations. And I mean, we can make this a check conversation. We can make this a bunch of different ways, Rob. But overall, I'm thinking depth. Like, will this be a strength for the Thunder or have the spurs found a way to almost play it to a point where it isn't enough because they have the horses in order to come out on top of this?
- [10:05]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I mean, I think the Thunder probably have more guys they can play just like, period, than any other team in the league. Like more good NBA players who you could throw into the playoffs and feel fine about their minutes, but do they have enough of the right things? And this kind of alludes to what you're mentioning there, Justin, where it's like, do you have this, like the sufficient ball handling and secondary creation and like the exact skill sets you're missing with J.B. dub and A.J. mitchell not out there, that's so much harder to replicate. And it's particularly hard to replicate if you don't have the kind of flow and movement and like drive and kick rhythm that the Thunder often rely on. And that's where single covering Shea, isolating him and like really zoning out a lot of those shooters and a lot of that flow that the Thunder would be getting into. I mean, it just kind of strangled the life out of what OKC was trying to do. And so I, I agree with you that there are a lot of different levers to pull, but none of them really say, like, hey, give this other guy the ball a bunch. Like, they just aren't really players who are conditioned or who are really even have the skill sets to handle that kind of thing.
- [11:03]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, I think it's the star thing, but it's exacerbated by the. The schematic stuff that that San Antonio did from games three to four. It's been talked about a lot. It's not that they stopped helping entirely on Shay. It's like, you know, Mitch talked. Mitch Johnson, we're on a first name basis. Mitch talked a lot about showing bodies but not overcommitting. And I think it was pretty apparent with the. The way that they played in the gaps in between their guys in the corner and, And Shea. I mean, in, in game three, I went through and screenshotted a bunch of these where, you know, Shea would be in, whatever. It was like a dribble handoff, and he comes around the corner and there's somebody. There's one person in the corner. Whether or not that's, you know, it would vary, obviously, because they have so many dudes, but it might be McCain, it might be Jalen and Jalen Williams, you know, Arkansas Jalen Williams, that is. But they weren't sitting. Like, there were plays where, like, Champagne would be all the way over into the gap, like, stationary, waiting for him at the elbow or be castle or whatever it was. It's like they. They were playing back a little bit more and not getting there as early. So not giving Shay that option, which is putting those guys. When you're catching the ball with a guy who's doing a shorter closeout on you, you kind of need to have more of a. Like, all right, that first shot is not there initially, and I have to kind of go have a little bit of boogie off the dribble and. And make something happen. I think that stress, that spot is where not having AJ Mitchell, not having J Dub, those are the two guys, like Kayson can give you a little bit of that. Those are the two guys that kind of have, like, multifaceted skill sets. Like, they can dribble past, shoot, make something happen. And when you have, you know, a guy, you know, some of those later guys, like a door or, or. Or a case in, you're just seeing the strain of that a little more. You're seeing, like, J, you know, Jalen Williams take shots that aren't as open. You're seeing Chat take shots that aren't as open. I think it's putting a strain on those guys who aren't there and making it obvious how much they miss. They miss those guys. As much as Jeremy McCain's been a revelation, I think, I think health has just been such a huge thing tying it to the depth for okc.
- [13:10]
Rob Mahoney
And a lot of that help you're talking about, Kyle, like that's, that's strong side corner kind of cheating into the gaps, which is, you know, historically the spot you don't want to help off of that you don't want to over commit from. And yet I think the combination of the spurs being such a good closeout team when they do gamble and edge into Shay space a little bit and also some of the shooters you're talking about not only not having the sufficient level of. Of boogie, as you put it, to, to attack the basket there, but a lot of them have a little bit of wind up to their shots too. Like Jalen Williams, J. Will is a very good shooter, but like many bigs, it takes him a sec to kind of load that thing up. And so you can, if you are champagne, you can recover back in time. Right. If you are one of these spurs help defenders you can close.
- [13:51]
Kyle Mann
Penny blocked him. Simply blocked it.
- [13:54]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, you know, Julian Cham Penny, not the best like go to stopper in the world, but man, he's had some amazing help. Side blocks at the rim, closing out to guys in the perimeter. Down to a man, the spurs are just really good at their collective managing of all of these other kind of supplementary Thunder threats on the floor.
- [14:11]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, I know everything starts with Wemby being on the floor there. And he creates so many advantages defensively for everybody else just purely by standing there in the paint. But this is the first time I was marveling at the rest of the defense and in particular Stefan Castle. Like, everything was just so frenetic and chaotic for the Thunder in a way that it hasn't been this series. And Castle in particular, just like his defense overall, just marveling at that. He just has that rare combination of physicality, but also like he marries the sort of intuitive sense he has offensively with his playmaking and his passing to his defense, to the point where it's almost like you're watching him mirror SGA and like beat him to spots. And because he's so physical and athletic, like he's able to do so much and it's just like to get that from a guy that you're counting on so much on both ends. It's just like few teams have this exam advantage. It's just like it's like watching Case and Wallace, but also having like a different player offensively out there. And so, I mean, if they're able to guard like that going forward, this seems pretty difficult.
- [15:16]
Rob Mahoney
It does seem really difficult. I mean, especially because the Thunder shooters in that alignment just were not ready for the trickle down pressure that comes with having to make shots in tighter spaces on faster timing out of their normal rhythm. And that wasn't just the borderline guys, you know, like the Lou Dort's and the Case and Wallace's who we usually talk about, even, even Chet's kind of in that category, but even their good shooters weren't hitting against that level of kind of, I want to say pressure, but that kind of implies the hard doubling. And if anything, it's more of like a stay at home philosophy that is just making it harder to get any daylight for the Thunder at all. But I suspect we're all going to circle around the same kinds of ideas as far as, like, what is the defining factor in the series going forward. To me, depth is a huge part of it. I had written down attrition just about like how these teams are dealing with who is hurt, who is limited, who is available to go and who isn't. Again, kind of a similar idea, but really the spurs capacity to have Dear and Fox out from the start of the series, steal a game while he was out, have Dylan Harper leave the series and get both of those guys back quickly enough and in time and with the confidence and quality of play that San Antonio's had every step of the way, I mean, that's a tremendous win. And then when you look at the other side of the ball, so much is going to be asked of Shay from this point forward. And having Stefan Castle not have to be the only guard on the floor where he's racking up turnover after turnover and guarding Shea for the full game has unlocked him to be an even more like full balls to the wall defender against Shay in the first place and moderate what he's doing on the other side. So it's just San Antonio has a healthier balance in part of. Because. In part because of who's available. And I don't know how the Thunder really can fix that other than, you know, A.J. mitchell's gonna be back when he's back. And J Dub seems like it might be a longer timeline.
- [17:02]
Kyle Mann
I don't know if we're gonna see J Dub again. I'm kind of wondering because of the fits and starts here. Man, it's like he came back, just went Right back out. There's a lot of J Dub stuff in terms of, like, him being a skeleton key for their lineup flexibility that we can get into. But I think we're all kind of circling the same thing, which is, Rob, you said moderate, and I think that. That, you know, the spurs have had the luxury to sort of moderate in a way where, you know, I was pulling up a one screenshot that I took here, tying into a couple different things here, like the speed of the shooting and things like that. The fact that they can toggle Devin Vassell onto Shay a little bit, too.
- [17:38]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [17:38]
Kyle Mann
Helps helps Castle at times where he's just not burning like a ton of calories. Having a guard. Shay just every single possession. There was a play where Shay is attacking the cell towards the strong side corner, and you had Jared McCain on the wing, and then you had Chet in the corner. And Castle is doing what we were talking about. He's. He's playing in kind of center field, playing free safety, and he knows that he's playing off. He's not committing to the elbow, like, just sitting there, like, showing them that kind of triangle that they were showing Shea when he would turn the corner. It'd be like a guy guarding him and then just two people at the elbows. He knows that that Chet shot is so. Is so slow that he can play off of him and close and have a longer closeout. But he was kind of. And then playing up and kind of mirroring the way that Jared McCain was playing because McCain could shoot the ball so much faster. So that's a really helpful thing for them. And then, yeah, just overall, I mean, transition, man. I mean, they just. They really, really killed them in transition with this. With this approach, because the tougher shots means that, you know, they're missing more of them, which means that. That. That they're getting out and trans. 14 more transition attempts in this game for San Antonio, and they were just. They were hellions, man. I mean, the athleticism in this game was, like, making me feel fatigued just watching it. Like, it. It really. It's something else. Like, it's one of the more athletic, like, defensive, like, performances that I can remember. I don't know about you guys, right?
- [19:03]
Justin Ferrier
And then on the flip side, if the Thunder aren't generating those transition buckets, if they're not creating turnovers, and Castle has definitely limited from the. What was it like, the NBA high of 20 over the first two games, like, it makes it a little bit tougher. And that's the problem with the Thunder overall, where it's just like you have a lot of role players that excel so much at doing the things in between all the star play. Really what they need is star play at this point if Shea is going to be limited or bottled in the way that he was in this game. And so I ultimately think this is probably circle circling us back to Chet, where it's just like, I know he's so good in so many different things, and defensively he matters so much to this team. But you really need someone to fill that J Dub void because I think Kyle is right. Like, this is typically when you would just kind of hope that he steps up. And yes, he did in last postseason. But I'm just looking for, like, where the advantage are for him offensively. It's like the three ball has completely disappeared. He was shooting well this postseason. Going into this matchup. Isn't right now. I think he's only made won the past three games at the basket just like kind of a non factor because I think he's almost like he's typically used to having certain advantages, but now Wemby's there and it's just like he has more advantage on all the things he's typically good at. And then it's like kind of like he's shell shocked a lot of the times he seems. But wouldn't you be. I guess so. If I had to play Wemby, yes, I would definitely be shell strike, but I would hope him someone who's kind of cast himself as sort of a foil to Wemby. Yeah, he would come up to this matchup, but it almost feels like he's kind of wilting in the face of consistently being like, turned away in this sort of thing. And so I don't know. I just don't really know how to get him activated because I just don't see where the advantages lie for him against Wemby at this point, especially if he's going to not have that same sort of aggression that Wemby typically meets this matchup with.
- [20:50]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, it's really tough. I mean, I think for someone like Chad, just on a mechanical level, his best way of kind of creating an advantage of creating any kind of open shot. Almost all of them depend on him, like, using a spin in some way or another. Either kind of like a half spin from like the elbow into a little turnaround or around the basket, kind of like temporarily blinding himself to go on the other side of the rim or whatever it may be. That stuff is so dangerous with Wimby and you can see Chad in his own head every time he has to turn away from where, where Victor Wembanyama is if he has any hope of getting a shot up. The combination of having the slow three point release that we've talked about, he can't get to that mid range game. He is smothered inside as you said JV and doesn't enjoy the same advantages there. It's just a really bad matchup for him and this is one area where he's, he's going to need over time some more reliable face up threat that can't be taken away by a defender like a Julian Champagne sized wing. And he doesn't really have that right now. It's one thing if you're going to be matched up with Victor on every possession and he's. That is the case often enough. But he has to have something he can go to against wings who are checking him that doesn't feel so easy to neutralize just by this level of physicality. And that's unfortunately where he is right now.
- [22:04]
Kyle Mann
Well, it's the quality of the ball. Pressure obviously is, is really, really stepping up here and you know, because if you look at a certain type of matchup like a certain type of 5 Chet does really well against the Aytons and the Oso Iguidaros, guys like that. He does well against Luke Cornette. I don't know if it's like you stagger him more with Cornette and try to get him attacking in that but against the Lakers I mean he averaged 20 and 10, one and a half steals, one and a half blocks, 60.8 field goal percentage and 38% from three. 38 and a half percent. I don't want to begrudge him that half percent there but. And there are two losses in this series though he was two for seven and three for eight. I think in general I saw a couple different instances where he could have been a more aggressive cutter. There was that 45 cut which is just for the, that the, you know, not where you do the diagonal across the elbow. Basically the 45 degree angle where he just kind of waited and would typically see that as a spot up opportunity. Maybe it just means he's more aggressive attacking those situations where the defense has shifted and there's an opening and he just applies himself more. I mean I'm assuming we all saw the, the Shay clip where there's the comically long. I had to go back and watch it to make sure that it wasn't created like because there's a lot of editing trickery on social media. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [23:16]
Justin Ferrier
At the post game press conference, like, what can you do to get Chet involved again? He kind of hemmed a nod, right?
- [23:22]
Rob Mahoney
I don't even know that he hadn't. He didn't even get to the hemming and hawing. It was just fully silent, you know, which I, I. We appreciate any player who takes a beat to, like, really think about their answer, but I think the taking of the beat is indicative of this series a bit. It's like, what do you, what do you do to tap into this almost purely off ball score in a series where all of that connectivity feels gone?
- [23:45]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, I haven't. I mean, he had three field goals made and two of them were put backs. And I think a lot of those opportunities come when Wemby gets out of position. And so, like, perhaps you could be a little bit more, like, advantageous there and, like, look for that. But it does really narrow him in a way that you would hope wouldn't be the case because he has so many other things to offer there. And so, I don't know. Kyle, do you see ways to get him involved more or. I guess to ask you the same question they asked SGA like, how do you get chat more involved?
- [24:15]
Kyle Mann
Let me answer that for Shay. No, I, I think what's. What is really problematic here is that a lot of the hypothetical things that we have gotten excited about with Chet have always been this just extra icing that has never been like, okay, Chet, we need you to do this now. Like, it's always been, if Chet does this, if you just think about the way that we've talked about the thunder the last couple of years, it's like, oh, showed a little bit. Showed a little bit of boogie off the dribble there. Got to his, you know, his spin, his turnaround, got to the rim, things like that. It's like those things never truly ascended to. We're depending on these things all the time. And I think J Dub took pressure off of him in that way in those lineups where if J. D's catching in the corner, he absolutely can flow into a pick and roll or attack or get to his dribble, pull up or get to the room, whatever it is. It's just that Chet has never, it, it's never graduated from hypothetical to be too scientific about it. Hypothetical to theoretical or, or, you know, I guess the law would be the last place to go with that. No, I just, I, I think that's part of the problem and I, I don't really know. I don't like him operating like at the elbow, like trying to create his shot. I don't think that's going to work because the spurs have great length and they're very bouncy. I don't, I don't really see like there being like a self creation button that they're going to be able to push in this series. Like I, I don't, I do you guys.
- [25:38]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, I don't, I don't. I mean Chet, like for all the reasons we've just laid out, is not a oh, he just needs to be more aggressive type of scorer. It's not what he's built to do, it's not what his primary value is, it's not what his secondary and tertiary value is. Like maybe he'll become that kind of player in time. I think the best thing they can do for him is find other ways to stress out this version of the spurs defense. Now that the Thunder kind of know what they're walking into in terms of the defenders kind of staying home on some of these shooters, what Shay is going to be seeing. How do you unlock all of your off ball movement, all of your, all like all of your kick out, all of how do you get momentum within this offense? Again, because that's where Chet scoring is going to come from. And a lot of this is like the way all of these problems compound. Right. It's like if, if Shay isn't able, if he's a little bottled up, if he's not getting into the paint and making the spurs freak out with any consistency, not only are you not getting the kick out shots to the good three point shooters that result from that, but you're not getting some of those offensive rebounding opportunities you mentioned, Justin, because Wemby doesn't have to hard commit in the first place because, because Shea is kind of stifled in the lane before that's even necessary. So you need a little bit more movement, you need a little bit of like this is where I think even having someone like Alex Caruso in the game more as a trigger man to have Shay moving off the ball, activating in different ways that may force the spurs to overreact could be really helpful for them. Case and Wallace can do some of that too. Like they have enough guys who can initiate plays so that Shay can attack counterintuitively, that hopefully you can unlock something from that.
- [27:09]
Kyle Mann
Can I attack something on that? Sure. Something. Something too though that's interesting is that they're Trying to do this thing where they're blending Shay into actions, where they're shuffling him into the deck where come. I think that an advantage the spurs have is that they're like, they're like, we know that you're just, you're just disguising something to get to the same place, essentially. So. And you saw this a couple times where you know, they're running the high post thing and using Hartenstein as the trigger guy and he's sitting there and the spurs are like, we. Can we just cut the shit. We know that you're just trying to run Shay across a dribble handoff here. And he sat there for a second and Castle back tapped him and was going the other way. It's just like, like I think that dynamism not to bring it back to J Dub again, it's just like if you're mixing in this, this approach, which this team is not somebody that. It's not a team that typically runs through the high post a whole lot the way that the Knicks want to or the way the Nuggets do or whatever it is. It's like they're missing dynamism or just options out of that. You know, it's like in the spurs clearly don't respect it and. And then you have Wimby back there who can zone off of it. So they're going to have to find ways to have more options out of that, because if they're just going to try to like run, run a dummy action, force it to Shay, that's predictable and, and that's. That's. That's tough for the Thunder.
- [28:25]
Justin Ferrier
The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA Playoffs are here and everything's on the line. Every possession matters, every bucket swings the game. And tonight is your shot to boost your bet. That's right. All customers get a profit boost tonight. So when the moment hits, your win hits bigger. And FanDuel is giving you better payouts on same game parlays all NBA playoffs long. So looking ahead to tonight's game four in Cleveland, the Knicks are down at minus two and a half. I gotta be honest, even though a sweep is unlikely at this stage of the playoffs, I don't really have much faith that the Cavs can generate enough enthusiasm in order to bounce back in this one. So just give me the Knicks -2 and a half in a sweep, and the Knicks go on to the NBA Finals. How exciting. Lock in your bets, boost your odds and make the playoffs. Pay off with Fanduel official sports betting partner of the NBA. Head to FanDuel.com RingerMBA to get started. FanDuel play your game 21 select states or 18 DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. Well, we haven't talked about Wemby, so let's talk about them now. I have down here question number two. Believe it or not, this is only the second question. Is Wemby already the best player in the league? I think it's the question we've been asking at the very least for half the season, maybe this entire season. We're going to do a new top 100 rankings at the end of the finals. And so it's something I've been thinking about, especially in this series, because I think that kind of the, the task is either Shay or Wemby at this point. And in good Thunder performances, you want to lean towards Shay just to give him that sort of nod. Obviously he won MVP and like, if you're the team on top, it's hard to go against that, right? But when Wemby has performances like this where he basically shuts down the game at halftime or just a little bit after that, and you see like the, the both sides sort of like just the way he warps things just by purely being out there, it seems kind of inarguable. I keep coming. This is the internal monologue in my head in most of these games, Rob, where it's just like, well, I want to give Shay the credence because of like all this other stuff that he's done, the resume and all this other stuff. But also Wemby's just kind of inarguable at a certain point.
- [30:51]
Rob Mahoney
I, I'm, I'm going through the same mental exercise. I think a lot of us are. I in general defer almost always to like, who are the guys we've seen do it, who have proven it beyond a shadow of a doubt, who have gone on the championship runs, who have like the true bonafides to compare it to, you know, the aspiration and the potential of the great young stars who are coming up in the league. Victor Wembanyama just like takes all of those sorts of maxims and like, throws them in the trash. Just like it's. He's a different kind of player. He's a different force to be reckoned with. And I think I'm at this point where I feel comfortable saying that he's the best player in the world. I feel, I feel pretty convinced of that fact, despite all of my misgivings, despite all of my hesitations, despite. And I feel more comfortable saying that off of game four than I would have off of game one, where it's very easy to come off of 41 and 24 and be like, holy shit, this guy's the best player in the world. I think the way you earn that title, the way you, you really wrested away from someone like Shai or Nikola Jokic or whoever you thought the best player was, is by the way you respond and the way you adjust over the course of a series to prove that you are an undeniable force versus a guy who can come out and have a great game one. Lots of, lots of young players can do that kind of thing, can be dominant for a game. What does it mean by the mid series mark where we're seeing, where we're seeing role players kind of played out of the rotation for both sides? Shay tested in ways that he wasn't out of the gate. It's just, it's already a completely different competitive enterprise by game four. And here's Wimby having yet another dominant performance and doing it in a way that like, we haven't really seen for a very long time in terms of a player who doesn't have the ball in his hands and is this good and has this profound an impact. I would think you would have to go back at least 20 something years probably, if not more, to find a player who is affecting the game this much without actually controlling the ball.
- [32:42]
Kyle Mann
I think the most. The three most dominant gravitational forces in basketball, the past three have been Shaq, you know, in the, in the 2000s and through the 90s, and then Steph and now. I think that the next plateau here is. Is Wimby. You're talking about him not having the ball. I mean, he, yeah, him just running to the rim more has an incredible impact. Yeah, he, he just, you know, we had some version of this conversation. I think when we were talking about maybe we did like an awards check in. It might have been in February. If you all remember, I had a really interesting experience where I just posited the idea that Wimby might actually be the MVP. I had a 48 hours from that one. Just turns your phone off. No, it's like, is there a difference between most impactful? Because he's definitely the most impactful there's no argument for that. I don't really feel like.
- [33:34]
Rob Mahoney
So it's like, what is quality if not impact?
- [33:37]
Kyle Mann
Yeah. So just the way that he's. And I agree, you know, we see super. About the, about the proven thing or about the, the counters thing where it's like we see a lot of guys have. I always say that, like, superstars are implied offense. It's like they have this thing that, like, okay, they have this thing that they're not going to beat themselves. Like, Giannis is going to get downhill. You know, Steph is going to create tough shots. It's. The question is, what do you, what do you do as a superstar when that's the difference between like, this guy can go get you 30 on a given night to. We've overloaded. How do you respond? You know that that's what gets you to the, like the MVP ranks. And it's like, I think that Wimby's kind of shown that he can do that. And on, on this stage. Yeah, it's. I think he's the best player in the world. I don't, I don't really see any kind of. What did you guys do when he hit that half court shot? What. What was your all's physical reaction? I punched someone.
- [34:28]
Rob Mahoney
You punched somebody?
- [34:29]
Kyle Mann
I went like. I did like a full blown. Like you could kind of feel it coming. But yeah, I definitely hit the person next to me when he hit.
- [34:36]
Justin Ferrier
Well, it almost seemed like he pulled up from like behind the line. Almost as like a test to himself. Like he just decided, because my proportions are so different, like this to me is the three point line. And like he just decided to challenge himself in a weird way. It was wild, truly.
- [34:50]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, I'm just at a, like a shrug and laugh point with most of the plays that he makes. Like he had an and one alley oop finish in which he got fouled by both Lou Dort and Isaiah Hartenshein on each arm and it's just like, oh, no problem, here we go. The plays that he makes routinely are just obscene, insane. He.
- [35:09]
Kyle Mann
The other night, the show, I missed the last one. I came home. We were celebrating my wife's birthday. We came home. Happy birthday, Meg. We came home and late at night I like put the AirPods in.
- [35:19]
Justin Ferrier
She catches this like 30 minutes into this game six preview pod.
- [35:24]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, that's how you know she's a real one.
- [35:26]
Kyle Mann
I'm just gonna let you know she's not a listener. So not interested in basketball. But it was like late at night and I was watching it. She's reading her Kindle. So I'm watching the game with my AirPods in. And there was a play where Wimby drove. He does this a lot. He'll drive and kind of have, like, the. Somebody's pushing on him. He'll just kind of put it up on the glass, and then a lot of times he'll go tip his own miss.
- [35:46]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [35:46]
Kyle Mann
But on this particular one, he just. He put it pret. High up on the glass and came back with his right hand and tip dunked his own miss. Do you all remember this play? And I did a thing where it was almost. I was like, the guy from the ring who. Like that when the girl crawls out of the TV and he, like, is stumbling and falling back, I like. I, like, did this, you know? And to Megan, this is totally dead silent. She's sitting next to me, and she. And she stopped. She goes, what made you react like that? And I was like, so she was genuinely curious. So I rewound it and played it for her. Didn't really register to her.
- [36:16]
Rob Mahoney
And she.
- [36:17]
Kyle Mann
But she was, like, quizzing me on it. She was like. I mean, how many people in the world can do, like, what he just did? I was like, no one. I mean, maybe y'.
- [36:24]
Rob Mahoney
All.
- [36:24]
Kyle Mann
You think of, like, who. He just does things that. That are just beyond everything. Yeah.
- [36:30]
Justin Ferrier
Well, the other part of this whole discussion is I have to stop myself at times and remember that this is his third season in the league, and it's even less than that because obviously last season was derailed by the blood clot issue. And so, like, I was trying to remember, like, which player you would seriously consider for the best player in the league before he got to his second contract. Like, there have been guys who, like, have been in the conversation of. Of, like, MVP and everything. Like Luco Shirley, LeBron back in the day. Like, Derrick Rose, I guess, like, when he won mvp. Like, there have been guys.
- [37:02]
Kyle Mann
Yes.
- [37:02]
Justin Ferrier
But that would not only be the guy, but also probably not relinquish it for the foreseeable future, for, like, potentially the next decade.
- [37:10]
Rob Mahoney
And.
- [37:11]
Justin Ferrier
But then I also think to myself, having him for the postseason, we get all these nice new anecdotes about Wemby, and one of them is just, like, you hear all these things about how he prepared himself for this moment. There was something with, like, Darren Fox where he's like, yeah, nine o' clock hits, and he has the blue light glasses on because he refuses to have screen time after a certain amount of time I'm just like.
- [37:29]
Rob Mahoney
It's aspirational.
- [37:30]
Justin Ferrier
This guy's like. He's a freak of nature physically, but also like a freak in terms of, like, how he approaches this stuff.
- [37:36]
Rob Mahoney
Stuff? Oh, yeah. I mean, all the great players are competitive psychos in different ways. His just comes out through, like, over preparing, meticulousness, like, and I think going outside the box of what we consider to be normal, athletic, like, practice, right. In terms of, oh, you just get in the gym, you do these shots. Oh, you do, you know, your dribble package. You unlock these things. You get to, like, your one dribble moves, your two dribble moves, like the half spin, all that stuff.
- [38:00]
Justin Ferrier
It's more like a CEO look. He is.
- [38:03]
Rob Mahoney
He is definitely like Jay Shetty pilled. Like, there's some. There's parts of this that are, like, a little less appealing, and there are parts of this that feel like a lot. But it's hard to argue with the results and the comprehensive way in which. I mean, Kyle, you talked about the implied offense of just like, having a star on the floor. The idea of someone like Victor Webanyama, who is not initiating your offense, who is not running it, who isn't even, like, in a Giannis like way, being the engine of what drives you on the ball, putting up 30 and 13 on 52, 43, 88, shooting against the fucking Thunder is insane. Like, this is a crazy place for all this to end up. And I don't know how you watch that on what is his worst side of the ball and think, this isn't the best player in the world.
- [38:46]
Kyle Mann
It's interesting because, like, he does. You're right, he doesn't do that on offense. There are no situations, like, consistently where all eyes are on him, like, Like a set defense, all looking at him. He doesn't give you that. So if you think about, like, looking away from Wimby is a perilous thing to do in the half court on offense because he's such a lob threat, and then it's. It's inverted on defense where it's like your eyes are always kind of wondering where Wimby is. So I just think that kind of pulls to. Or that just kind of speaks to the way that he pulls and bothers you and Justin.
- [39:15]
Rob Mahoney
That's it.
- [39:16]
Kyle Mann
Go. Go ahead. Yeah.
- [39:17]
Rob Mahoney
Can we play out this mental exercise a bit? Because I was genuinely trying to think of the last player who was this good, who was like, the best player in the world or in contention for it, who had the ball this little in terms of actually controlling it for context, during these playoffs, Shai has the ball in his hands about 7 minutes a game on average. Jokic was about 6 minutes a game. Ant was about 5 minutes a game. Wimby is at 2 minutes a game having the ball. Even Steph when the warriors were rolling, even Steph when they had Kevin Durant was like at 6 to 7 for all that he played off the ball genuinely. Who was the last time, like, when was last time there was a guy this good? I would have had the ball this little. Like, But Steph isn't even close. I, I mean, we don't have tracking data for, you know, like past eras. And so like I was thinking Shaq, but even then he, he was controlling and initiating from the post so much. Maybe Tim Duncan in that like 05 kind of range might have fit this bill just because they were trying to triangulate their offense with Manu and Tony Parker so much. But, but genuinely, you might have to go back even further than that. This may be more of like an 80s, 70s, 60s kind of question to find like the closest comp.
- [40:21]
Kyle Mann
Well, your, your question before that was interesting, Justin, about player who was the best in the league before. You know, you mentioned Derrick Rose. I don't, I, I. A lot of appreciation for Derek Rose. I don't think he was ever the best player in the league. When LeBron is strong breath.
- [40:34]
Rob Mahoney
Not our best player.
- [40:35]
Kyle Mann
LeBron. I think it's a question of like, when he, when did he enter that conversation? Because the he, you know, Kobe, Kobe flexes muscles pretty early there. You know, he has that finals and then he comes back.
- [40:48]
Rob Mahoney
Kyle.
- [40:50]
Kyle Mann
And then Kobe.
- [40:51]
Rob Mahoney
At no point during Kobe Bryant's career was he the best player in the league. It just never, it just never happened. Despite.
- [40:56]
Kyle Mann
Are you, what are you saying?
- [40:58]
Rob Mahoney
Like they have told you?
- [40:59]
Kyle Mann
Are we doing like the Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett thing? Is that what you're talking about?
- [41:02]
Rob Mahoney
There was always either a Shaq or a Duncan. Like, there was always. Or a LeBron. Like, it was just a straight handoff of other players as Kobe was like, like in the top five. In the top three.
- [41:11]
Kyle Mann
02, 03. Kobe was pretty, pretty damn good is all I'm saying. Very good. Yeah.
- [41:16]
Rob Mahoney
Not the best player in the world.
- [41:17]
Justin Ferrier
Nothing anyone else is going to say this entire pot is going to matter because Rob just lit this entire thing on fire. Just, just put the gasoline all over the place and just like just set us ablaze. Well, I don't, I don't disagree. It's just like, it's a very fraught conversation.
- [41:32]
Rob Mahoney
Well, I mean, look, no one is going to have a normal conversation about Kobe Bryant ever again. Like, that ship has sailed.
- [41:39]
Kyle Mann
It.
- [41:39]
Rob Mahoney
It is what it is. But I'm sorry, we have fully derailed from the point.
- [41:43]
Kyle Mann
Okay, wait, wait, wait. So LeBron's 0607 season, he was 22 years old. I mean, when did. When was he definitively the best in the league? I think it's probably somewhere in that 22 to 23 year old range. I think that's what we're talking about. And it's a short list of players. Steph wasn't in that conversation yet. I mean, Jordan, I mean, we'd have to go. We'd have to pull that up. But I. When do you think LeBron was definitively the best player in the league? I think it's probably right in that span of time. Very similar.
- [42:12]
Rob Mahoney
I think, weirdly, I think it was before he ever won the mvp. Like, there's always that little bit of a kick where those things tend to come maybe a year or even sometimes like half a season too late before the opinion really manifests around it. But like, I do think that 0708 season might be the one.
- [42:30]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, I just remember the next year in 08 09, when they won 66 games, when, like, they were just doing those, like, taking photos of each other, like they were posing before every game. That was when he like, clearly had it by the throat and like, clearly was dominating in a way that was like, unimpeachable. So perhaps like he got at some point the previous season. But it's hard to remember at this
- [42:50]
Kyle Mann
point talking about over a decade or two, Jordan in. Well, Jordan at 23, I think it was pretty definitive. Well, he had the foot issue when he was 22, so he might have even announced himself even early, because as we know, Jordan, 86, 87, averaged 37.1 points per game, three steals in almost five assists. So he was pretty good. But. But I think that speaks to what we're talking about. We're just like, okay, who are the. Who are the comparisons for when they were the best player in the league? We're like, in the best examples we can come up with are LeBron James and Michael Jordan. So I think that just kind of speaks to the air that we're talking about here. And we'd be so different than those guys in the, in the usage, you know, that you were talking about, talking about.
- [43:30]
Justin Ferrier
Well, let's flip to the complete Opposite end of the spectrum here because down at number three I have wondering whether or not Lou Dord is. Is long for the Thunder. And now I feel bad because the Thunders postseason has become an exercise almost as like a. Almost like Survivor where it's like which one of these guys is going to last fast this season? Because we need to get rid of one of these in order to bring in probes new players. But like we talked about it up top, like the depth is what it is to the point where the only guy that didn't get on the court until garbage time was topic who obviously is still recovering from cancer. We got topage minutes.
- [44:05]
Kyle Mann
I was. I threw my hands up. Wow.
- [44:07]
Justin Ferrier
It was nice. Yeah, it's good to see him. But like that's without two of their regular star players. So somebody's got to go eventually. It just like Lou seems so ancillary to everything that's going on right now.
- [44:20]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, it just feels like they've outgrown him. And I, I really like Lou Dorsey. Seven years with a team, especially your first team in the NBA is a great run and he has been so important to the Thunders rise. But then you get to this stage, he's not their best perimeter defender anymore. Casen Wallace just made all defense over him and rightfully so. And like overall this playoff run has just kind of reinforced all of the offensive limitations that come with Lou Dort being on the floor. And this is an even bigger issue without J.B. dub, without A.J. mitchell. Like with those two guys out, Lou Dorrit feels, I don't want to say unplayable, but he feels like he comes with a lot of baggage for what he's giving you on defense.
- [45:00]
Kyle Mann
Here's. I think this is the more interesting question is who. Which team in the league could really use Lou Dort? That's most. I mean. Well, I mean, what team is close though that adding Lou Dort makes it like really interesting. Like look at. I was going to say the Cavs. Yeah, possibly that might be the answer.
- [45:19]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, would be a great one.
- [45:21]
Justin Ferrier
Cavs are tough just because they're over the second apron right now. And so he'd probably have to come, you know, a minimum or something incredibly convoluted. But like think of every team that has aspirations to be anything. Like he fits the. The classic. Like we're a playing team trying to be a playoff team or we're outside the play and trying to be a playing team. Like let's say the Wizards all of a sudden hit their hit a Stride, and they're just like, oh, we're. We're a plane team. We want to be more. Well, why don't we just, like, not play? All the young guys, get Lou Dort in there, and all of a sudden, like, we're even more serious than before. He's like that classic, like, level up sort of guy, but to a certain
- [45:55]
Rob Mahoney
extent, I mean, even. I mean, a team like the Lakers too, could obviously use him anytime. You're entertaining. Oh, how do we get this other wing stopper? How do we get more like either athleticism or the ability to counter athleticism? I think Lou Dort is a guy who neutralizes so many athletic threats on the wing, so many, like, high, potent scores. It just so happens that the Thunder right now need other things more than that.
- [46:20]
Justin Ferrier
I think that would be probably the counter is just that. Like, where do they get the real size and strength on the wing? Because a lot of the guys that are the successors of the Case and Wallet's mold. Yeah, more of just the fast, speedy, like, just shorter guys. And so you do want someone who could be just like a big wing guard and like, as we saw in his limited run this game, like Aaron Wiggins. Not really that guy. Like, who. Who would be like the. The six nine big wing defender. If they had to go to it. I'm sure they could just conjure someone out of thin air. Maybe they could draft someone, Kyle, but like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. That'd be great.
- [46:57]
Rob Mahoney
Just to like, fully investigate this possibility, though, I mean, there is an incredible value to having Lou Dort and just like, eating regular season minutes in particular. Like, we're. We're at the stage right now where it's just like, oh, my God. Alex Crusoe as a playoff performer is its own kind of unique weapon to deploy against basically any scorer on the floor, any creator on the floor. Balance. Crusoe can't do that for 82 games. And Casen Wallace, to your point about the larger, like, wings that. That he might have to guard, I mean, I don't know that that's a good use of his skills. I don't know that there's a good opportunity there for him. J Dub can kind of do a lot of that stuff, and maybe that kind of solves some of the problem. But I do think Lou Dorr, just in terms of absorbing defensive responsibility has done a tremendous amount of good for the Thunder in getting to this point, even though once you get here, we have all of these caveats.
- [47:46]
Justin Ferrier
Is that the ultimate Thunder luxury That they could just be like, we'll just keep them. Just like. And if we don't have to play them, we don't really need to.
- [47:53]
Rob Mahoney
But. But here's the thing is they can't keep everybody. Like, there's a reason, as you said, Justin, that we keep having these conversations. They have three picks in this upcoming draft, including at 12 and 16, and so they're either going to have to consolidate those picks in a deal. They might consolidate those picks in a deal with Lou Dort, who has a team option. Like, there's a bunch of different possibilities they could kick around there. I just think they are due for some measure of consolidation, whether it's involving Dort or not.
- [48:20]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, well, it'll probably depend a lot on what happens through the series and if they get into the Finals, like, if he's already, like, just hitting five threes a game in the Finals, which could happen because he has these sorts of just flashes of absolute brilliance, like, it could be a completely different story. Which probably brings us to question number four, which is what's the next counter move in game five for the Thunder? We kind of talked through a lot of them. Is there anything you guys left on the table here?
- [48:44]
Rob Mahoney
I think that maybe they should look for some more extreme options in terms of the lineups. Like, I would. I know this may seem premature. I know the Thunder have a lot of reason to feel confident in what they do in the way they play. I would start Shay. I would continue to start Case and Boss as they didn't get four. I would start one of Isaiah, Joe or Jared McCain, whoever you feel more comfortable with in that spot. Caruso at the 4, Chad at the 5. I just think the Hartenstein door in the starting lineup with Kayson, Wallace with Chet, who can't create. That's way too much pressure on Shay. Like, you need guys who can handle the ball. You need guys who can create any bit of space. And if you're going to open up any offense, like, this is sort of the only blueprint to do it within what the Thunder have right now.
- [49:25]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit of a trade off. Right. Because you're. You're really putting yourself into. Into a position where the vertical threat of Wimby in those lineups is going to be even more of a problem.
- [49:36]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, it's terrifying in that respect. But you know what else is terrifying? Like trying to replicate what you just did, in which you had one of the worst offensive performances in your playoff history against this spurs defense. And Just expecting something different to happen.
- [49:50]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, the. The tweaking of the help there. We. We needed just to tack on something from what we were saying earlier. Jalen Williams, Alex caruso and Jerry McCain gave you 57 points in game three. And that adjustment that they. That the spurs made really, really dwindled that down. I. I was kind of in the same ballpark. I mean, I, I talked some of my chat. Talking points earlier, but it's. It's going to involve him in some capacity. Whether that means he's enabled more or he's off the court more. I'm kind of leaning towards maybe what you're saying here, Robbie, where it's just like, if the. If the quandary of, like, of Wimby's rim pressure is already at a point where it's like we're just. We're not really making a huge dent in it. Making. Just crowding him. I've said that there's no, really. There's no real fighting fire with fire with Wimby because nobody is his size. Nobody can match up with him. It's just like we're having to go to unconventional means. We're going to crowd the catch, we're going to get under and we're going to bother him. You just lean into more of that stuff and then force them to. To play your style more. That.
- [50:48]
Justin Ferrier
That's.
- [50:49]
Kyle Mann
If you're not going to have Jalen Williams, you're not going to have A.J. i think you're forced to go to. You're not abandoning your identity so much as you're forced to get innovative here. And this is what really good series do. I'm. I'm glad I was bummed last game because I told Rob I was like, I feel like I wanted this series to go long. And the adjustments, I was. I was like, man, I kind of feel like it's going to go five now or something. And the fact that, you know, Harper and Fox came back, I feel like it's going to go longer. But overall, I think it's going to. It's going to come down to, like, how they use Chet, whether or not that, you know, so what if they
- [51:23]
Justin Ferrier
just had Hartenstein do a push shot for every single possession, like, because it's the most effective shot they have going for them. Just only push shots in the way that, like a option offense in college football only runs the ball. Just only push shots.
- [51:37]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, so you just want them to be like Army's offense, like, historically always does so well, you know?
- [51:42]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah.
- [51:42]
Rob Mahoney
Just Pure run game. That, that was really the moment for me where it was like, like the game opens eight straight minutes in which Isaiah Hardenstein is the Thunders only offense because the flow is kind of like taking the ball to him. Like that is the open spot.
- [51:55]
Justin Ferrier
Right.
- [51:56]
Rob Mahoney
Great for him to knock down those shots. A huge red flag that. That is kind of where the offense is leading possession after possession after possession. It speaks to the way the spurs are playing the gaps, the way they know how to cheat off of just the right guys, but not over commit to the double in the process. I just think like, you have to really, really shake things up offensively, including acknowledging the fact that Isaiah Hardenstein, you've done a of really solid work in the series, especially since game one, but you just can't be on the floor that much if J.B. dub and A.J. mitchell aren't going to be available. Like, I, I think it was very easy to come out of game four and think like, okay, this, you know, the Thunder got bottled up. Shea had a really tough night in terms of the coverages he was seeing and not grasp like the magnitude of how bad the Thunder were from the field, creating literally anything at all. Like, if you want to compare what the, what the Thunder just did to who the Knicks are, Jalen Brunson could literally punt every third possession into the stands and they would have scored more than the Thunder scored last night. So a lot needs to change. A lot needs to kind of be unburdened for the Thunder to be a viable playoff offense against the Spurs. The spurs front and I don't, I just didn't. I don't know how you're going to do that with Hartenstein and do it out there.
- [53:06]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, I mean, the Brunson part of it we can get to, but the. With the. When he made those floaters to start the game, I mean, Wimby was just flat out neglecting him at first. And you saw what his impact does where when he was like, all right, I'm going to take one step towards Hartenstein when he take. And one step for Wimby is. I can't imagine what that must feel like and look like. But the, the arc that you're having to put on, I mean, it's like touching the. It's like touching the moon when it comes down. It's balls probably got some frost on it. I like, yeah, that. That's the impact of Wimby just taking one step towards you and contesting a shot. It makes it that much more difficult. And he just took it away.
- [53:41]
Justin Ferrier
All right, we're already circling the Knicks.
- [53:43]
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- [55:15]
Justin Ferrier
the big questions of the big five questions, who are the Knicks rooting for? Presuming that they're gonna not just completely blow a 30 lead, it's gonna be Knicks versus somebody who would they rather see?
- [55:27]
Rob Mahoney
I think that's a safe presumption. As disrespectful as it may seem, I think they would be rooting for the Thunder because they would be rooting for the more depleted team. If we're operating under the assumption that J Dub may or may not be available, that A.J. mitchell could miss more time and I think tethered to those ideas, what it's going to take from Shay to get out of this series. Even if the Thunder. If the Thunder do win, Shea's gonna have to go to incredible lengths against Stefan Castle and Victor Webanyama and the layers of spurs defense in order to make that happen. On the other side of it, I think you'd be pretty taxed. And we've seen what the Knicks can do to tax teams like the Cavs have just, like, nothing in their legs right now and are getting completely worked by these guys. The Thunder are a different caliber of team. I'm not trying to disrespect what they do. I think it speaks more to the way that these playoffs have kind of, like, worn on Oklahoma City overall and especially in this series. It just feels like the kind of thing you would want in a playoff opponent as opposed to, oh, how do we adjust to maybe the best player in the world and all of the layers of help and creation that are alongside him.
- [56:34]
Kyle Mann
Yeah. For question one, you asked, like, other than star power, what will determine the series? And I said poor health. And then for. For question five, who are the Knicks rooting for? The answer is also poor health. I think, because either one of these teams at full strength. You're talking about the Spurs. I don't know if I agree that the Spur that the Knicks would be producing more offense than the granted Cats.
- [56:55]
Rob Mahoney
I don't mean. I don't mean against the Spurs. I mean literally in their series against the Cavs, if Jalen Brunson was ejecting the ball into the stands one every three times, they would still be scoring more than the Thunder just scored.
- [57:06]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, it's. It's so you just can't even. The two matchups are just so. They're wildly different off balance. I think it would probably be the Thunder. Yeah. To say what Rob is. Because I think the rim protection part of it, you're. You're kind of porting over a similar thing where it's like so much of the. What the Knicks do, it relies on Brunson. You know, the way his style of playground and. But he's five inches shorter. I think the key variable here, though, that could work for them in their favor is that cat and the issues of driving the ball of the quick trigger, you know, from the five spot. Cat is a little bit of a different animal there. As opposed to what, you know, Chet. The problems that Chet is causing the Thunder in terms of generating offense. Cat. Cat would be able to produce in those situations the way that he would.
- [57:55]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah. I think health probably, first and foremost is probably what would dictate their. Their wants and needs. But if, like, independent of that, I do wonder, like, you know, the couple might resonate just a little bit. They're like, we got these guys now. That feels like it's 10 seasons ago at this point, especially for a young team that's just like come up and, and gone into so many different places that we weren't expecting.
- [58:18]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, Harrison Barnes was a starter then. You know, a lot has changed.
- [58:21]
Kyle Mann
And now he's the enforcer. Did you like that? Sure. He was tying his shoes, getting in the way. I was like, come on, Harrison Barnes,
- [58:31]
Justin Ferrier
we're doing what he can. Well, I guess that's another reason to perhaps like, maybe want the spurs because, like, youth, it's one thing in the midst of like a playoff run, it's another thing in the finals Fishbowl, which is a little bit different. I would say attention wise, media wise, especially at msg. Now I say that, but also hearkening back to what we just said about Wemby, like, if he had been taking sound baths in order to help himself for like the cacophony sounds of an arena like MSG since he was 12, wouldn't surprise me. But I don't know, there's a lot there. There's also like the physical, like, just heft of the Knicks is a much different challenge than the Thunder. And I did feel like it gave him trouble, the spurs did in that cup game. And so like, perhaps that's another thing. But like, I don't know. There, there's stuff there you could work with if it is indeed the Spurs.
- [59:21]
Rob Mahoney
There is stuff there. I, I just think that the matchup has changed a lot since the Cup. I mean, Wimby came off the bench in that game. He played like 20 something minutes. It was, there was, it was not a usual spurs team. And even if it were, they've grown up a lot since then. And Victor Webanyama has changed a lot as a player since then. I would be worried if it were Knick spurs from the Knicks perspective about, you know, they guarded Wimby with Cat and Mitchell Robinson pretty conventionally when they've played them. That's just like asking for foul trouble for two guys who tend to get in it. And if both of them get into foul trouble, literally, what else are you doing? It's like OG Anunoby. Congratulations. Here's your pogo stick. Please guard Victor Webanyama.
- [59:59]
Kyle Mann
OG has a good history on Wimby. Very good.
- [60:01]
Rob Mahoney
He's good against most bigs. But again, it's like what we've seen from Wimby in terms of his willingness to Just like go to the rim when the matchup presents itself. That feels like a transformational shift in his game and something that I think will make life significantly harder for even an all world defender like Anunobi.
- [60:20]
Justin Ferrier
All right, why don't we take a quick break because I do want to talk about the east part of this. Despite the fact that it's already three of out, this episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever find yourself scrambling to grab that special something for a last minute party, a spontaneous date, or even that impromptu game night at home? That's when prime same day delivery swoops in. That essential item you thought you'd missed, delivered the plan, saved the win secured. Because with prime same game delivery, you can grab it and go before the moment passes you by same name delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.comprime to find millions of items delivered fast available in select areas. Terms apply. All right, so we're recording this early west coast time on Monday before Game 4 between Cavs and Nicks, who as you're hearing this, the Knicks perhaps have already won the Eastern Conference finals. But is anybody else getting a little bit worried that everyone is completely discounting the Knicks or whichever team comes out of the Eastern? Like I, I agree that it probably will be Thunder or Spurs who ultimately win. So the west is the de facto title game. Having said that, I'm a little bit worried that everyone agrees to that. You know, it's like.
- [61:31]
Rob Mahoney
Let me stop you there. Who's. Are. Are we discounting the Knicks?
- [61:35]
Justin Ferrier
No, not in that same framing, but you would probably say spurs or Thunder over Knicks.
- [61:40]
Rob Mahoney
No, I mean I need to see who's left at the end of this series, like who, who left alive. And. And the Knicks are just going to be chilling with their feet in an ice bath for a week.
- [61:48]
Kyle Mann
I was like, is this every accusation is a confession. Is that what's going on there, Justin?
- [61:53]
Justin Ferrier
It could be, but no, I would say that's the popular sentiment is that the west was going to produce the title. And it's actually, it's, it's like nine. If they win tonight, it would be nine days until finals game one because it's on June 3rd. Yeah, it's over a week that they would be chilling as these two other teams are just fucking hammering each other for seven games.
- [62:11]
Kyle Mann
It's more likely that San Antonio is going to be close to full strength then would we agree on that? I mean, I. Harper's looked a little. He's not as spunky attacking the basket. I didn't think as he was in Game one, but they're more likely to be full strength than okc. Right.
- [62:27]
Rob Mahoney
We say that, but then, like, every quarter or so, Dear and Fox will have someone fall on his ankle in a way that looks like it's going to require amputation, and then he manages to, like, gut it out and play through it. But I'm just worried about all of these guys at this point.
- [62:40]
Kyle Mann
Yeah.
- [62:41]
Justin Ferrier
And everyone's lying about the injury report at this point. Like, J Dub is like, day to day and it's just like, we'll find out in a couple weeks that, like, he's out for six months or something.
- [62:51]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. I'm just not fast forwarding through anything that involves the Knicks. They've been the most dominant team in the playoffs. They deserve every benefit of the doubt. They will be healthier regardless of opponent by the time they get to the Finals. And I presume they will get to the Finals. I just think they're going to give anyone a hell of a fight. And I don't know. We'll talk picks when we get there, but they have so many answers and so many responses and the best balance of any team in this postseason. I just. I see no reason to think that they couldn't win the Finals, which is a crazy thing to say given where they were, you know, five months ago.
- [63:24]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, I don't know that I'd say they have the best. I think the three teams with the best balance are still playing. I don't know that I would say it's, like, obvious that the Knicks have the most. You think? It's, like, it's clear that they have the most balance.
- [63:35]
Rob Mahoney
I think in terms of, like, who has tapped into their 1 through 5 or 1 through 6 consistently with, like, an equilibrium that's really, really hard to take away. I think they've done that better than anybody in the playoffs.
- [63:50]
Justin Ferrier
I don't know. Perhaps this is just like Pacers PTSD kicking in, where it's just like everyone's counting out the Pacers every single series, and all of a sudden here they are taking the Thunder to seven games. But, like, this feels like there's so much of a shift in a different direction. I'm just like, God damn, we're going to miss this again. It's going to look stupid. But to get back to the Cavs part of this, I had kind of been percolating on a belief that whichever team lost the East Finals probably makes the most sense from a big picture storyline for LeBron to just try to work his way to that team.
- [64:23]
Rob Mahoney
The Kevin Durant.
- [64:25]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, I guess so. So it's the inverse of Kevin Durant basing his. All of his moves off of what LeBron just did, and. And now LeBron doing the same thing. I just don't think, like, LeBron is what the Cavs need, especially defensively, in order to fill that three spot. I also don't know how he would get there because as we alluded to before, it's very difficult as long as the Cavs are into that second luxury tax apron. But it just feels like he needs a place to go to. And if one makes sense, it would be going, homes, where you started your career and where you grew up with a team that seems, at the very least is going to be in the mix next year. Am I wrong?
- [65:02]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, the. The writing is okay. Saying the writing has been on the wall, maybe overstating it, but, like, they've been linked forever for exactly this reason. LeBron going back to the Cavs makes a lot of sense narratively, historically. Personally, for LeBron, all of that is true. I'm in agreement with you that he doesn't provide exactly what they need specifically on the wing, but part of what they need is, like, a little bit of an attitude adjustment, to be honest with you. Like, you. You watch this game three, I know these things kind of always end ugly, but, like, this is as dispiriting a way to go out as the Cavs could possibly have had in these conference finals. Like, they fought so hard to get here and they are just, like, bailing on possessions midway through, not competing. Didn't have, like, a fast break point for three quarters of that game. Like, just inexplicable things in terms of the balance of, like, effort and execution of what it takes to play high level playoff basketball. LeBron teams don't really do stuff like that. Like, yes, they have internal fighting sometimes. Yes, there are power grabs. Yeah, there's, like, lobbying for the team to trade this guy or get this guy or whatever. But, like, when push comes to shove, they do tend to show up and they do tend to compete. And I don't know, I don't know if, like, I want to give the Cavs some benefit of just like. Like, they are clearly exhausted. They are clearly on, like, tired, tired legs after fighting way too hard, perhaps harder than they should have had to. And that's their own doing against the Raptors and the Pistons to get here. But just seeing the state that the team is in, it's like they need emotional leadership. And, like, that is something that LeBron James does really well, as you saw, even in that series against the Rockets.
- [66:38]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, I mean, the Cavs are. Were, like, clearly more talented than the Pistons, but I think it shows. It speaks to what you're talking about, that they had to work a little harder than they should have, because I think the Pistons had a stronger cult of personality than the Cavs did. It's just the Cavs had to sort of like, claw and scratch and get to that point, and I just. Is LeBron going to come in and solve that for them? It would help, for sure. I think there's a lot of basketball questions that you would have to ask in pieces that would have to kind of move around to make the. Make it even financially possible. But, yeah, I'm with you. I mean, I kind of feel like that's the biggest. That's the biggest thing that they need to fix. You know, like, the basketball stuff. It's. It seems like they have enough talent there, granted. They need to, like, maybe make some moves in the margins, like, to get their second unit better, like, some more options there, just overall. But are you just going to keep kind of running into these problems if you stick with the. If you stick with a team that depends on Harden and Mitchell, is LeBron going to want to come in and be able to fix that? I'm skeptical. I am.
- [67:41]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah. I do feel like Harden, in a weird way, is probably the biggest obstacle at this point. Just like the half season of Harden ended up being like, what spurred them to this point but perhaps is undoing them slowly but surely in the postseason, where it's like you can only sacrifice one older, slower playmaker, as brilliant of a playmaker both of these guys are, in order to build a credible defense or just even to just, like, for them to coexist along with Mitchell. And so if Harden wasn't there, I think it would make a lot of sense at this point for a lot of the reasons you're laying out there. I think AD benefited from allowing LeBron to being the emotional leader while he was just like, probably the best talent at that time. And perhaps Mitchell could have some sort of version of that. Obviously, Kyrie on the Cavs had the same sort of little, like, run there, perhaps not as the same talent level as where AD was, but it just seems very difficult to get to. If he. If he plays on a minimum, then maybe that's it. I just don't know where else he goes. And so I don't know Things are aligning to where, like, like, perhaps the triangulation is getting us back to where we started.
- [68:48]
Rob Mahoney
And maybe it is. I mean, look, the pen on that James Harden extension, like, the ink is not dried yet. It's may pull Carlos Boozer just back out. Maybe something has been agreed upon, maybe it hasn't. Maybe it's also being negotiated. I genuinely don't know. All of which is to say, if Cleveland, the Cleveland Cavaliers got the opportunity to bring LeBron James home and needed to trade James Harden in order to do it, can you not imagine that happening? Can you not imagine, like, them wanting to reunite with the greatest player who's ever played in their uniform, One of the greatest players, if not the greatest player of all time?
- [69:23]
Kyle Mann
I pun Harden for the chance to get even older. LeBron. I mean, I don't think there's any question.
- [69:28]
Justin Ferrier
I agree. I think it's just difficult. Like, where's that home? Because they also can't sign and trade because then they're hard capped. So it couldn't be like, let's say Harden ops in. They couldn't have. They couldn't sign the Lakers, sign LeBron and then trade them for each other.
- [69:43]
Rob Mahoney
Right.
- [69:43]
Justin Ferrier
Because then they couldn't do that on the cab side. So it's just incredibly difficult. I almost want them to, like, pause the CBA in the way they did for all NBA teams just so we can get what we want here, but I don't think that's gonna happen. Probably not anything else from this series, though. It's tough to be like, are there any counters left for the Cavs with Donovan Mitchell just looks completely spent and realizes like. Like that there really isn't much left for him.
- [70:06]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, this series felt like it ended with. With the Knicks come back in game one. Like, that was the one that the Cavs absolutely had to have. It would have been a statement win. It would have been a declaration of some of, like, proof of concept. Like, our defense is working to a degree where we can win games in this series, and they've just fallen apart since then. But can we talk briefly about Kenny Atkinson's quote of the day?
- [70:27]
Justin Ferrier
Sure,
- [70:29]
Rob Mahoney
yeah. I don't know if you how much you guys caught this or our listeners caught this. This is a quote from Kenny Atkinson coming out of game three. Analytically, we've won two out of three. We're two out of the three in the expected score. If you believe in process and all that. Like, man, take that later. I don't throw that on them. Editor's note. I don't know what that means. I see it for myself and I have this feeling I can go to our analytical table and be like, man, the expected score was like one point or two. Us shooting way below expected them shooting way over. He even, look, he even couched this by saying, I know this is not what anyone wants to hear. And he's right, it's not what anyone wants to hear. I also understand the value of like, you want to judge your approach on the merits, right? It's not all outcome based. All of that said, you can only do that with these, like, these players and this team so many times. Like, if you're, if you're looking at James Harden's career strictly from an expected score lens, you are missing the fucking boat. Like, and you could do the same thing with the Cavs role players over the course of these last several years where it's like, like Dean Wade is going to have games where he can't hit a thing. Dennis Schroeder is going to have games where he loses the plot completely. The other shooters you have on the floor are even guys who are like good percentage shooters. We've seen in the playoffs go absolutely quiet at a certain point. It's not just like, oh, we are not living up to the shot quality we are creating. It's like, this is who these people are within the context of what you create. And if you want to hide behind what the expected score, the expected field goal percentage. I just think there's like a real danger in this sort of like in a lab zoomed out view of your execution when the players involved perform to this standard pretty consistently in these sorts of settings.
- [72:16]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, this is just the whole Budenholzer thing kind of playing out all over again. It's the flip side of drilling an analytic mindset into like the guts of who you are. Like, like as a team identity wise, where it's just like in situations like this you want to be more beholden to the math than like what's actually playing out. But in a series, you really need to be able to turn on a dime in order to pivot to something in order to, to solve problems that way. And so on the one hand I understand it, on the other hand I just, it's just not how you can operate. And the best coaches we've seen are able to blur that stuff or at the very least not make it so high in the mix that it almost like becomes who you are as a coach. And it does feel like Kenny Atkinson's at Times can kind of lose sight of that. It's almost like the whole thing where you're like, you're flying and you don't know if you're upside down. All of a sudden he seems like he gets into these modes a little too often.
- [73:06]
Kyle Mann
And whereas the opposite. We get Josh Hart in the post game, say that analytics are like a. What does he say? A lamp post. You can lean on it when you're drunk, but it's not going to get you home.
- [73:17]
Rob Mahoney
Which I think is a warping of the actual saying. Right. Isn't it something about, like, they're illuminating but not something else?
- [73:24]
Kyle Mann
Well, they're like a bikini. They're. They a lot, but not everything I've heard. You've heard that one. You'll act like you haven't heard that one.
- [73:32]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, that one's been floating around for. That one's like a Sloan Conference classic, you know, what better way to open up your slide deck than that?
- [73:42]
Kyle Mann
Sure, sure. Yeah. And. But the other thing, too is that, you know, in the playoffs, it's. You get to a certain point where. And I had this written down about Mitch Johnson said something similar about where he was talking. These teams get to the point where they're so dynamic that you make one adjustment, they're probably not going to just roll over and die. They're the little intrinsic things like playing harder or, you know, the, the, the. The Pacers proof can go a whole, you know, can do a whole lot for you. And for the Cavs, it seems like that extra bit of just, you know, disconnect between, like, man, our projected score is really good. Why didn't we win? It's kind of paints the picture of the things that we're talking about, like why they would need a LeBron James. It's just like, well, why didn't we run a little harder on that sequence? Why didn't that guy see that back cut? Why didn't he make that effort for his teammate? Those are the types of things that I think are sort of under the bikini when it comes to these types of analytical kind of conversations.
- [74:37]
Justin Ferrier
Sounds hot.
- [74:40]
Kyle Mann
We didn't really even touch on the incredible visuals. I just wanted to say in the, in the game last, a lot of lasting images. I have a pretty good screenshot shot of. Of Shay getting up off the floor and that woman holding the Oscar trophy. She brought an Oscar trophy with her to the game to. To hand it. And then an incredible spectrum of modesty in the game last night. We didn't touch on this either. Where it was just boob city behind. Behind Mitch Johnson. And then. And then we have nuns on the other side of the spectrum.
- [75:10]
Justin Ferrier
Oh, the nuns.
- [75:11]
Rob Mahoney
Wow.
- [75:12]
Justin Ferrier
The nuns were a great bit. Cornet's like, I fucking have just sucked this entire series. Let's just call God in to see if he could help me out here.
- [75:21]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, Religion, great bit. Yeah.
- [75:24]
Rob Mahoney
Look, you need your blessings where you can get them. Some people are out here saging the court. Some people are out here bringing in the nuns. It's whatever it takes at this time of year. But, Kyle, I really undersold your ability to thread the needle between the nuns and the cleavage. But this is why you're one of our great think piecers. You know, like, you just. You really understand how to find the culture.
- [75:43]
Kyle Mann
It was just pretty funny to go from we see the nuns to the. To that. And I was. I was just kind of imagining if you were. If you were a really low down, kind of, like, TV producer. I was imagining the director in the. In the video truck just being like, all right, let's get a wide shot of the. Of the action here. Back to Mitch Johnson here, close up. Now we need a slow mo of this highlight for wimby. Okay, back to Mitch Johnson. Like, dude, you keep going back. I don't. It was just. It's getting to be one of the funnier bits online to me. I think it's. I think it's because it definitely was a topic of conversation with the people I was watching the game with. They were like, man, every time it's like, what is going on?
- [76:19]
Rob Mahoney
Do we have fanduel odds yet on whether those women will be on a reality dating show of some kind? Have their own podcast, Have a. Have a memoir, a book deal maybe? Like, what else? How else can they parlay this, do you think?
- [76:32]
Justin Ferrier
Plus or minus six boobs in the shot?
- [76:36]
Rob Mahoney
What.
- [76:36]
Kyle Mann
What we're at. We're at 4. We go into 6,
- [76:42]
Justin Ferrier
plus 500. Just like Lewd imagery.
- [76:45]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, absolutely.
- [76:47]
Kyle Mann
Look, this.
- [76:47]
Rob Mahoney
This is what the playoffs have reduced us to.
- [76:50]
Kyle Mann
Maybe we sit the nuns in front. That'd be the move. If you're San Antonio and you want to get around this, you just put the nuns in front of them. Hold the cross up, you know, There we go.
- [77:01]
Justin Ferrier
All right, why don't we cut it there? We'll be back on Wednesday. Thank you to Victoria Valencia doing double duty today. We appreciate it. We'll talk to you next time. 21 and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. GAMBLING PROBLEM Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-My Reset. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic or visit md gamblinghealth help.org In Maryland, Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY In New York, Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.