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Gordon’s 0.1-Second Miracle Dunk Saves Denver. Plus, a Steph Classic and Offseason War Rooms for the Grizzlies and Heat. | Group Chat
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- [00:00]
Justin Ferrier
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Basketball fans know that a great assist can change the game and there's no greater assist than one from State Farm. State Farm is here to help you navigate the right coverage for your home, car and more. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. State Farm Bloomington, IL coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. You're listening to the Ringer NBA show presented by FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook is the best place to bet on the NBA because not only does FanDuel have all your favorite player props, but now you can even check out stats and recent performance trends right in the app before you make your picks. Just download the FanDuel sportsbook app today to get in on the action. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21/ and present in select states. Gambling problem call 1-800- GAMBLER or or visit rg-help.com hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Ferrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Big Waz recording this a little before 9pm on Saturday night. So I would say you know, two to three hours after one of the greatest buzzer beating final shots that I have ever witnessed. I remember going through the first half of the Rockets warriors game and I still like not sure I totally comprehended what was happening because Aaron Gordon's big bucket to win it against the Clippers in game four was that important. What did you guys think?
- [01:49]
Rob Mahoney
Just when you think you've seen it all, you know, a two handed put back dunk to beat the buzzer by, I have to say was I think the slimmest margin I have ever seen any basket beat any buzzer in the entirety. I've been watching basketball, it was nuts.
- [02:02]
Big Waz
And the fact that Jokic, he took, he did a Sambo shuffle to try to win the game and it ended up being a Kobe assist instead. I know, which was just crazy man.
- [02:14]
Rob Mahoney
Our guy can't stop giving, you know, even even when he tries to shoot it turns into a wonderful assist.
- [02:20]
Justin Ferrier
People were mad that he didn't get the assist and they were saying that if it was in Denver the scorekeepers would have given it to him.
- [02:28]
Big Waz
So after the game on the I guess that was TNT's broadcast. He was talking to, I believe it was Ali laforce. Gordon was and he just was at a loss of words. He didn't know what to say, dude. Like, and I think we all felt that way having watched the entire fourth quarter where Denver just literally is melting down turnovers, giving up wide open layups. It was just couldn't figure out a two, three zone. No, apparently. And I was just like, wow, their season is coming down to this and somehow, man, they held on and Aaron Gordon was able to get that incredible put back, which I thought in real time. I was like, nah, that's good. But then on the replay I was like, wait a second. This is way closer than I thought.
- [03:15]
Justin Ferrier
Even after the fact, if you looked at a lot of the clips that were circulating, it looked like his hand was still on the ball and that there was still like 10 to 15% of ball that hadn't quite gone through the rim yet. But fortunately the NBA official Twitter account made sure to tweet out the actual replay review angles. And if you go look at NBA official on Twitter or whatever platform you want to choose, you get to see a very definitive look from above. I think where within a split second it might be point one seconds might even be less than it's got to be. Let me talk to milliseconds where where just as he lets go like right off of his fingertips, it goes through the nets. That's how close this game was.
- [03:54]
Rob Mahoney
So what did we learn? I learned that that angle exists, a camera angle I've genuinely never seen before on any broadcast for any use. I learned that the the lights that border the backboard that light up at 00 apparently happen kind of incrementally in a wave. And so there's some shots where the fingertips are on as some lights are on, but not all lights are on. I also learned that those lights technically are turning on before 00, so that they can fully be on by the time they hit 00. It's just been a really educational evening courtesy of Aaron Gordon. I I have no choice but to thank him.
- [04:27]
Justin Ferrier
It was a crazy just series of events that even led up to that because we had the sambor just falling away practically out of bounds to the point where Jokic it seemed like based on as he was walking away one, he didn't think that Gordon shot went in and two, it almost he said after the fact. Like I thought that was a terrible shot. Like what was I doing? So I was going to hear that from him. But on top of that, obviously Kawhi goes and tries to double with Zoo. They get the bad shot to force up, but underneath the basket James Harden is left to Basically, box out, not only Aaron Gordon, but also another player because Norm Powell just kind of gives up. And so I don't know what was happening there with the Clippers. Like, Chris Dunn wasn't even on the court for that play. It was not a times out play. But Bogey was on the court and not done. And so I don't even know why we got to that point, because listen, it was a fluke thing. Maybe this never happens 100 times out of 101 times, but, you know, maybe a little extra effort on the box, that would have helped just a little bit.
- [05:29]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, can you blame them under these circumstances? As you're saying, it's so fluky, it's so unprecedented. I would never have guessed there would even be time to make such a play. And so I, I, for me, I'm putting less fault on James Harden or even Norm Powell and more Aaron Gordon's presence of mind and sense of timing in that moment is some truly supernatural shit. Like, to even be there in the first place to collect that shot, I think is a tremendous play on his part. But to get it in, the timing he did, I've never seen anything like it.
- [05:59]
Big Waz
And he just boomed this thing through and like, like that thing, he dunked that with such force. That's what kind of threw me off. Because, you know, I'm watching the shot, I'm like, oh, okay, Jokic got this off. Maybe this will be a buzzer beater. Then it just felt like out of nowhere, this man just grabbed this thing with the hand of God and, you know, wins the game for these dudes at the end. That was crazy because I would have just assumed that that shot was the last shot of the game. And so there is no box out, there's no tipping, there's no any of that. I would have assumed that. I thought it was when it went up, I thought it was the last shot of the game.
- [06:38]
Justin Ferrier
Play through the whistle or play through the nine different cascading lights that apparently go on at the backboard in these sorts of situations. I think it was apropos that it was Gordon because a lot gets made of the pick and roll combination between Murray and Jokic and just the kind of synergy that they have, but like just the mental mind melt that the two have between Gordon and and Jokic has been something special. You saw it in the finals run where every time that Jokic got doubled, it was always Gordon making the right cut at the right time. The fact that he was the one collecting the ball at the right time with the presence of mind to put it back in it. Just this is what the Nuggets have been for the past couple years. And it speaks to just, like, how important he is. There's a reason why he is Mr. Nugget. In addition to Jokic just being everything and anything for the Nuggets.
- [07:24]
Rob Mahoney
It's absolutely true, and rightly so. The focus will be on this dunk, which is a highlight that will live on in NBA history throughout the bulk of this game. Him running the floor hard, setting up in transition, drawing fouls on Kawhi like he was his own kind of menace within the body of this game. And the kind of counterpunch that Denver's been looking for in all of these contests. Right. Like it's. It's been Jokic kind of front and center. I thought in this game Jokic was probably as aggressive as he's been at any point in this series. I would say it's the first truly great Jokic game of this first round so far, which is a delight to see. But having Aaron Gordon as a counter punch was huge. Having a good Christian Brown game was huge. Having Michael Porter with one arm, having his highest scoring game of the series was a goddamn miracle like that. And Denver needed all of that stuff because they really had no other bodies to pull from. We got Vlad Coachar minutes in a real life playoff game. So that. That's really the state of things.
- [08:16]
Big Waz
Yeah. And all those guys you mentioned, you didn't mention Jamal Murray because he was basically a ghost. He just hasn't been good in this series at all. And, you know, I know a lot of people gave my guy, Tom Haberstrough some guff for saying that Jokic has never played with an All Star.
- [08:33]
Justin Ferrier
Was that me? I think. I mean, I guess I was one of them. It's. You're a little fuzzy with the math, but. Yeah, okay.
- [08:40]
Big Waz
Yeah, but. Okay, but has Jamal Murray played like an All Star to you in this series?
- [08:44]
Rob Mahoney
Justin doesn't defend Jamal Murray until it comes time to poke at Nikola Jokic. That's the only reason he will ever defend Jamal Murray.
- [08:51]
Justin Ferrier
I think. No. Okay, we're going to divert from just slightly so I can explain myself here.
- [08:55]
Rob Mahoney
Please do.
- [08:56]
Justin Ferrier
I think it's. I think it's a little weird that, like, after the fact, we kind of redo history to make it seem like every superstar just didn't have a super team around them when the Nuggets in particular were the model for NBA team building up until the past two years. When Calvin Booth just kind of undid what they did. So for that finals run, like that team was the product of like 10amazing moves. They built that team perfectly. And now we're going to like pretend like just the fact that one of them didn't make an all star team, he didn't have a great team around him, like, come on, it was a good team.
- [09:28]
Rob Mahoney
But I think the whole reason that they're a model and the reason we're getting into this conversation now about like how they are hitting certain walls, how they're running into difficulty against teams like the Clippers, is because they don't have a definitive, traditional second star. They have a guy like Murray. They have a guy like Murray who has been that in the playoffs at times, but was not in this game. And they have like a rock solid starting five, whether it was KCP back in the day or Christian Brown, now Bruce Brown, kind of in between there as like a toggle option. But they don't have a lot of alternatives, right. Like, they have built themselves in a way that is, that makes cogent sense but isn't always adaptive in the way that playoff teams need to be adaptive. And I think that's where you find them right now, where if you're the Denver Nuggets, once the like elation of the Aaron Gordon game winner fades away, you do not feel good about the way your season almost imploded in your hands. The way you gave up a 22 point lead by not playing defense, by not securing rebounds, by not like not guarding until they became too late and then panic over rotating and giving Lauren Powell like practice threes. Right? Like everything went wrong for them, starting with the fact that they could not penetrate a Bogdan Bogdanovich led zone defense for, for minutes on end for basically the better part of the fourth quarter. It was insane.
- [10:45]
Big Waz
I want to, I want to be clear too. Like, I don't think the Nuggets are somehow, you know, the first era of LeBron and Cleveland. This is not Ben Wallace cooked Sasha Pavovich, booby freaking Gibson, who was basically out of the league after LeBron left that team and he was their second best player in a bunch of playoffs. No, that's not what Denver is. But the bottom line is like, why it's nice to have stars on your team. They're more consistent than role players. Like, you just can't expect role players to be excellent series to series. Whereas stars, you expect them, no matter the matchup, to have a huge impact. And you know, the bottom line is Jamal Murray specifically is just not having a huge impact on this series.
- [11:29]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, I don't even think we mentioned that Russ wasn't playing here. And now maybe that helped in some. Some ways. But. But the fact that, like, they didn't have a bench at all, like, the entire bench was virtually useless. And like, on the one hand, I think you guys are right. I think Denver has to be like, man, we got away with one. Probably a similar fashion that they did in Game one. On the other end, the Clippers, this is the second time this happened, and you really have to be smarting yourself because they could easily be up 4 0. At the very least, they should have a 31 lead on this series. But they didn't really kick into gear until the end of the game. Their bench didn't really come through. All those ancillary guys that chipped in in the blowout game, just in game, like, Batum wasn't really hitting. Bogey was fine. Chris Dunn was so bad offensively, you had to worry, like, about even playing him because I think he missed like eight of his nine shots in this game. Harden a ghost until the fourth quarter. And even Kawhi, like, he was fine for a while and he kicked in in the fourth quarter. So, like, they really had no business even being in the fourth quarter. They did storm back, but, like, man, like, I was ready to hammer them before they came back here because this was a whole opportunity for the Clippers. This should have never been close. They have way more better players than the Nuggets, even though Jokic was incredible here. It's just these things just keep happening to the Clippers. Like the opportunity was there to be taken seriously, and they just kind of let it slip through their fingers.
- [12:54]
Rob Mahoney
It's true. I think if anything, as far as, like, turning points in the series, strategically, things that might actually change now that we're four games in. The Chris Dunn thing feels like it's starting to become a real problem overall for the Clipper offense. And he's someone who they rely on. They rely on his pressure defensively, even if they didn't lean on it so much in this one.
- [13:11]
Big Waz
He made their run when he went to the bench. And the Nuggets had somebody that they no longer could rotate off of with Norm Powell in there.
- [13:19]
Rob Mahoney
That was straight up it. Like, him going 1 for 6 from 3 in this game was a huge problem. Nicholas Batum finally missing some shots was a huge problem.
- [13:26]
Big Waz
And Derek Jones, I'm shocked. I'm not gonna lie.
- [13:29]
Rob Mahoney
Well, the first couple of Games conditioned us that he's just gonna come in and hit, like, run breaking threes every single time. And it looked like based off his first make, he might do that again, but then just like, could not cash on open opportunities that the Clippers desperately needed. And yeah, if Harden is having a basically a zero game, one of those guys is going to have to step up. And Norm kind of started to, as you mentioned, JV and Kawhi kind of had his moments, but overall, just not enough to like, surmount this kind of Nicola Jokic effort in particular and the way he was picking them apart through three quarters.
- [14:02]
Justin Ferrier
I also have to give shout to the referees here. Zach Zarba and crew. Probably the first and only time we'll ever give shout outs to the referees here because not only did they get the. Is he a Brooklyn guy?
- [14:14]
Big Waz
Yeah, he's a Brooklyn guy.
- [14:15]
Justin Ferrier
Of course. He's so street smart. He knew what he was doing out there. Not only did they get the call right at the end of the game, they also did not toss anyone based off of the firm shoving match that broke out in the middle of that. Can you imagine not having Gordon on the floor? It's really close. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God, there's so many of those guys. And so everyone got the one technical that all offset, and everyone just went and went about their day. It took 30 minutes to do it, but they ended up in the right place, and I'm glad that they did.
- [14:44]
Rob Mahoney
The fact that it was six distinct and perfectly offsetting text is just a piece of performance art, I think.
- [14:51]
Big Waz
And I feel like he. Did he alternate between teams or did he do the first team? Their first three, it seemed a little.
- [14:58]
Rob Mahoney
More dramatic than that. I feel like there was like one nugget thrown in during the clipper section and then one clipper thrown in during.
- [15:03]
Big Waz
The nugget section at the end. Was like, okay, Stephen, now okay. Nobody's even going to shoot a free throw here. All right, cool.
- [15:11]
Justin Ferrier
So wa. What are you feeling going forward here? Who feels better coming out of this?
- [15:15]
Big Waz
I got to say, man, I just think the Clippers, with their big three, they just feel more reliable. Kawhi, Zub, who played another monster freaking game. He's a problem dude. Like, he's just having a huge, major impact on this series. Like, everything. First of all, Tyloo, stop with the Simmons stuff. You got away with it for three games.
- [15:40]
Rob Mahoney
They finally cracked it.
- [15:41]
Big Waz
Just stop. The impenetrable code of the Ben Simmons in these guys.
- [15:46]
Justin Ferrier
I kept playing seven minutes and it went haywire in the second half. The second half was bad. In the first half he was like whatever. He was fine. He had like one or two nice plays.
- [15:55]
Big Waz
Actually three games. Like, they can't keep getting away with.
- [15:58]
Justin Ferrier
This, but they did.
- [16:01]
Big Waz
Yeah, but yeah, I just think Zub, Kawhi and Harden can be more reliably good to great than Jokic, Murray Gordon or if you want to throw Porter Jr. In there. I just think they're just more consistently, you know, up to the task, man. And that's why I think you got to like their chances in the last three games of this series. Like, I've been changed on that. Like, Kawhi and Harden are constantly putting Denver's defense in compromising positions. That fourth quarter was just like, they just cut through these dudes. Okay. Like they were paper mache. And so to me, I think you got to like the Clippers, man. Going down the stretch of this series.
- [16:44]
Rob Mahoney
I think the only thing that gives me hesitation is that the moments when the Nuggets have really hit a wall have been against sort of off speed coverages and things like that. It is the zone, it is the Ben Simmons minutes. It's stuff that they clearly just like weren't fully prepared for or expecting. And that's not an excuse but to say it's a little harder when it's all of your default stuff. And as the series goes on, we're already starting to see it on the Clippers side. It's just going to be more 44 minute nights from Kawhi and Zhu and James Harden and all the core members. God knows the Nuggets are already doing that throughout their starting lineup. They have to play 42, 43 plus minutes. It's going to start kind of normalizing into, this is your base stuff. This is all you have left by the end of a series, right? You're kind of stripped away for all those gimmicks, all those parts, all the rotation players who can't hang anymore. And what are you left with? You're left with the best player in basketball on one side who's I think, finally starting to get into gear and most importantly, finally starting to shift from Nikola Jokic, you know, neighborhood, like your friendly neighborhood playmaker who's trying to get everybody involved to, oh, I'm going to actually make a quick move on the catch every time. Oh, when there's like a quasi double team, I'm just going to throw up the shot anyway and I'm probably going to hit it because I'm one of the Best scorers in the league. Like he needed to go through that mental shift and I do think we saw that here in game four.
- [18:01]
Big Waz
He made a big shot before the Sambo shuffle. Like this one on one, he does like 20 different. Kevin McHale up fakes and just cashes a fake. Like one of the hardest shots you can take in freaking basketball. With Zube all over.
- [18:15]
Rob Mahoney
He was there. Yeah, he was on it and he.
- [18:17]
Big Waz
Made a huge like he was just great today finally. And yeah, I guess that's what they can hang their hat on. Nicole Jokic has the ability to be all time great, but God damn, man, some other people got to do stuff too.
- [18:29]
Rob Mahoney
Very true.
- [18:30]
Justin Ferrier
But that's the worry though. Like the Clippers have so much in their favor. Their bench has not only just like been more consistent, but there are multiple guys that you could hope for that could ship things in. Like Batum has been very good in this series. Derrick Jones Jr. Even though he hasn't given the most offensively, just consistently good defensively.
- [18:46]
Big Waz
Three today, really, really good.
- [18:49]
Justin Ferrier
Came alive after three games. Just like Jamal Murray in the back court.
- [18:54]
Big Waz
Like, I'm like, what am I watching? Like, Jamal, why are you getting hounded by boat? Like, this is not a thing.
- [18:59]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, but here's, that's the thing. When the margins are this close, that's when the Yokich advantage just comes to for it. It was a real like you're supposed to turn yogic into a score like, okay, bet sort of game for him. Like this is not the opportunity you want to give him because he more times than not will all execute a team in these type of situations.
- [19:20]
Rob Mahoney
History also tells us too like this can change. Granted, it's a two, two series. Anything can happen.
- [19:25]
Big Waz
Two home games.
- [19:26]
Rob Mahoney
They do have two home. I'm not even saying that. I'm saying usually when you look back at the ends of these series and they're this close, you look at the team that's like, man, they really had that one in their hands and they gave it up. And the Clippers having two of those games on the one hand you could take to mean on balance they've been the better team because I would say they have been.
- [19:43]
Big Waz
They have.
- [19:44]
Rob Mahoney
They've also squandered two crucial opportunities out of seven. And that, that rarely do you get through that alive, unscathed without that coming back to bite you guys.
- [19:55]
Justin Ferrier
It's ultimately the Clippers, you know, I don't know if they feel the weight of history, but all of us do and all of us are Also, like, counting meticulously the Kawhi Leonard minutes or the Kawhi Leonard good minutes that could just go away in a blink of an eye. And so you really need to make the most of your opportunities. And this is the classic example of, like, this is the exact game you do not want to lose because that FATA starts to creep in. It's creeping in for me, and I barely even, like, I wouldn't consider myself a fan. I'm just, like, aware of the history.
- [20:22]
Rob Mahoney
Can we do a little betting pool now, which is whenever, whatever. Like, the deciding game of this is the elimination game for the Denver Nuggets. Whether that's a closeout, Game seven, whether they're on the brink of elimination, how many Denver Nuggets appear in that game.
- [20:38]
Justin Ferrier
The cancer rule here, the John Jar.
- [20:41]
Rob Mahoney
Meds did not go. Here's where we're at now is there was a moment in this game when the lineup was Jalen Pickett, Jamal Murray, Michael Porter Jr. Peyton Watson, and DeAndre Jordan. And I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. That's kind of all they got. Like, if you're not. If you're going to give these guys any rest at all, that's what the lineup is going to look like. And if Westbrook's foot injury is serious, I don't know how you get away with anything, but either that or playing these guys 47 minutes.
- [21:04]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, I was just going to ask, like, how many arms does MPJ at that point? Like, if he just has stones, is he still going out there and giving. 30.
- [21:12]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. Black Knight, Monty Python style. Like, he's just. You're gonna have to kill him out there.
- [21:17]
Big Waz
Question for both of you guys. To whose advantage is it that David Adelman looks like the Mad TV mascot?
- [21:25]
Rob Mahoney
Is that to somebody's advantage?
- [21:27]
Justin Ferrier
I had that same thought during the game.
- [21:29]
Big Waz
He does look a lot like, stolen from Twitter.
- [21:31]
Justin Ferrier
Okay.
- [21:34]
Rob Mahoney
WAZ created it. The people on Twitter stole it from waz.
- [21:38]
Justin Ferrier
It's like that Mad Men thing where he's like, I. I came up with the idea of some type of marketing. It already existed, but I came up with it independently. The Pete thing. I guess you guys don't remember that. It's fine. It was a good reference. I would also say Christian Brown, fucking baller. That guy just comes through in big moments. I just wanted to shout him out here. Yeah, I agree with you guys. I think the Clippers have it all. I just. I wouldn't be surprised if the Nuggets pull this out.
- [22:07]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I'm glad we're here though.
- [22:09]
Big Waz
Great series though. I'm glad we're at the 22 because 31 would have felt so deflating just as on an entertainment value. But yeah, it's just incredible Basketball to watch definitely.
- [22:23]
Justin Ferrier
Today's episode is brought to you by Amazon Business. Every business starts with an idea. How can you go from daydreamer to industry leader? Amazon Business accelerates your journey with smart business buying. Get everything you need to grow in one familiar place. From Office supplies to IT Essentials to MainTen tools. Amazon Business takes the buying experience you know and love from Amazon plus tools that help you save costs and make insight based decisions. Ready to bring your business to life? Learn how@AmazonBusiness.com all right, let's flip to the nightcap now we have the warriors going up 2:1 on the Rockets despite not having a single Jimmy Butler minute. Just a classic Steph performance here, just all phases of the game. There was one point where he had a little like Russell Westbrook cotton shot where he just pulled up quickly on Jabari Smith and I was like, God damn. Like my, my knees like felt the phantom pain of him doing like a 37 year old just doing this. The fact that he could still do that and he can move like that is so incredible. He also had nine assists in this game. But I have to say Rob, my, my kind of big takeaway from this one is like what the fuck are the Rockets doing? Like you got to win this one.
- [23:33]
Rob Mahoney
You really have to. You have to. Their offense was complete sludge. Like this wasn't even like stuck in the mud offense. This is like bottom of the tar pit fossilized in amber. Like no movement, nothing going on whatsoever. I think for at least half and maybe a half and change they were able to kind of pull Golden State with them and kind of bring them down to their level and eke out points. Enough of a slight advantage to make it feel like they had control of the game until Steph was Steph. And that's where like I agree with you jv. Like this was, this is a really special Steph game. It's not against the highest level of competition. But what he was able to do in the fourth quarter and I guess in the third because he was already starting a massive scoring and assisting run in the third quarter. But down the stretch, weaponizing Gary Payton the second into a full time crunch time weapon was unreal. And it was, it was just happening because the Rockets were freaking out every time Steph moved in any particular direction. Like that is power. That That's a power that we've had we had never seen before. Steph came into the league in terms of that kind of off ball impact. And frankly, I'm not sure we're ever going to see it again. Because for all the Steph copycats out there, no one moves like him. No one can do that.
- [24:44]
Big Waz
Two takeaways, man. Obviously, echo you guys sentiment. Steph Curry doing this at 37, still giving us these kind of performances that I get to sit on my couch and watch disguise Wizardry is a blessing. The second thing is, what is the NBA regular season, man? Like, that this team could be the 2 seed in the west, win 52 games. Essentially, guys on effort, they try harder than everybody else in the regular season. Now that everybody's trying hard, Golden State doesn't have their second. Like, he's a star. Like, as much like everything we're saying about Jamal Murray not being that for Denver is what Jimmy Butler has been for Golden State. Bankable, you know, basically for freaking 30 games since he got traded. Just a bankable star. He's out. And the warriors basically punk these guys anyway. And Fred Van vliet is taking 14. He's out shooting Jalen Green in a game. Okay. Amend Thompson, who, God bless him, we love him. He's our favorite guy. Five for 16 because that's not his bag. He hasn't arrived at that moment yet where he can be a guy who shoulders the burden in a big, gotta have playoff game. And like, what am I watching here with this team? It's like, yes, you guys play good defenses. And I think even me, I fell for the last regular season game where they were just hounding Steph and, you know, basically Steph couldn't even get a dribble off. And I'm like, man, these guys are scary. And then you see tonight where it's just like, bro, your offense is just. This is jv. You're just not a varsity big boy type of playoff offense at all.
- [26:25]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [26:26]
Big Waz
And I don't see how that changes over the course of this series.
- [26:29]
Justin Ferrier
It's not a bad thing to be jv, let me tell you.
- [26:34]
Rob Mahoney
Did you get hit with that a lot growing up?
- [26:36]
Justin Ferrier
No, I didn't really get JV until I started working in sports. And if anything, maybe not even until the ringer.
- [26:43]
Rob Mahoney
Wow.
- [26:43]
Big Waz
Oh, my God. I don't know why this made me think of this, but my guy Pablo Torre was telling me a story that, like, when he was younger, kids would spell his name Pablo with a W at the end. Yeah.
- [27:01]
Rob Mahoney
What is even the bit.
- [27:05]
Justin Ferrier
We'Re just talking about nicknames now?
- [27:08]
Big Waz
That was it. Like, oh, wait, what did they call JV when he was young? And I just thought about that story. Sorry, guys.
- [27:14]
Rob Mahoney
That's all good.
- [27:16]
Justin Ferrier
No, well, speaking of young player, sorts of things, like, Amen Thompson just had, like, 30 of those moments in this game. Jalen Green had the classic come down after his meteoric second game. Shen Goon just seemed like he missed just a shitload of shots. I think I just. I think he missed, like, his first six shots almost at the basket. And so at a certain point, like, you know, that will happen, but it almost felt like just misses combined with young stuff, combined with just the same old problem that we always have with the Rockets is just they don't have anyone to stable, stabilize their offense. Just all kind of came to head all at once.
- [27:51]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I mean, just doesn't have the game for it yet. You can see the way that, you know, someone like Draymond will pick him up on a possession.
- [27:57]
Big Waz
He doesn't have counters.
- [27:59]
Rob Mahoney
No counters. And Draymond's just standing basically at, like the restricted circle and giving Amen Thompson any shot he wants outside of that. And he can't hit like a little free throw, line floater, or even a step in kind of runner, like, just isn't. Isn't being able to redeem any of that kind of offense. And so long as that's the case and you can see him working hard, you can see him trying to find his angles, they're just not there. And they're not there for Jalen Green either. He had, again, some moments in this game, but it really was just moments. Sengun. I was kind of shocked to see that he only had one turnover in this game because I felt all night he was kind of soft and sloppy with the ball. And it must not have manifested in turnovers, but it did manifest in people deflecting and kind of throwing him off his spot. He would have to reestablish kick the ball out. He would recollect or he would get a shot up, but it would be bothered by somebody's contest. Ultimately, that's not the way you want to leverage size in a game like this. Like, you're the bigger, more physical team. You have to play like it. The Rockets certainly do that on defense. Right? They played defensively well enough to win. They just. They could not and have not been able to score enough consistently in the series. And we thought Jimmy Butler's downfall might be the one avenue they have to consistently outscore the Warriors. That did not happen. And now if Jimmy Butler is able to come back at any point in this series, it feels kind of like a foregone conclusion that Golden State can at least, like, string together enough buckets to win.
- [29:16]
Big Waz
Yeah, the problem for Sengun is that the thing. And you know, we make these jokes about him being Jokic Lite or the Boris Diao of Nikola Jokic is and all this kind of stuff, but the problem for him is that he's not Jokic. Like the thing that Draymond Green made his name in the NBA with those small ball lineups with him at the 5. And it's because he could stonewall centers in the post. That's why those lineups worked, that there were no centers in the league that could just get the ball and eviscerate Draymond Green in the post and get shots, you know, basically within three feet that are the most bankable shots in the game. And him just trying to do that straight up against Draymond is just not going to happen. You know, like, this is what this guy does. I would argue it's his superpower, besides his, like, processing ability. It's like, dude, like, he can just straight up guard any center in the world one on one on an island. And so, yeah, I think Shengu just ran up against that man. It's. It's kind of got to be Jalen Green. It's got to be a man Thompson. It's got to be, dare I say, Fred Van Vliet, who shoots these guys back into this series.
- [30:25]
Rob Mahoney
Along those lines, like, coming into this game, Houston was scoring more of its points in the paint than any other team in the playoffs. Like, in terms of the percentage of their offense, Golden State was the exact opposite, the lowest percentage of their offense coming into the. Coming from the pain in these games. In. In this one, the warriors outscored the Rockets 44 to 38 in the paint. This cutesy little jump shooting Golden State team managed to get to the rim by leveraging what Steph was doing by getting all this cutting activated. And on the other side of it, Draymond, and I'll say Quinton Post too. Really high level rim protection from those guys. Whether it was Amen Thompson crashing in, Tari Eason coming in all this transition play that the Rockets are trying to access, Golden State was getting back, walling off the basket, really contesting those shots heavily and taking away really the only way that Houston has to score consistently and I guess throw in there intentionally fouling Steven Adams here and there as well, just to try to milk the system a little bit. And it worked.
- [31:20]
Justin Ferrier
Who do you think Draymond Green hates more? Is it Jalen Green or is it Buddy Heald?
- [31:27]
Rob Mahoney
Why? Why Buddy? Why Buddy healed? Was he getting into Buddy this game?
- [31:31]
Big Waz
Oh, my God.
- [31:32]
Justin Ferrier
Jimmy was.
- [31:33]
Big Waz
He got ripped basically at half court. Yeah, by. By a center.
- [31:38]
Rob Mahoney
By Stephen Adams. Not just a center. Stephen picked your pocket, took your cookies.
- [31:43]
Big Waz
From you and have. That's insane, bro.
- [31:46]
Rob Mahoney
That is. That is a clip that lives in the group chat forever. Like, any time you try to. You try to get a little mouthy with somebody, they just drop in the clip.
- [31:55]
Justin Ferrier
It just seems like every year and now increasingly, maybe every couple months, Kerr just, like, has a guy that he really just sticks in his car for a while was bajems. But it seems like it is turned over to the Healed era, where. Watch the clip of Steph just staring blankly into space while, like, Jimmy basically tells Buddy to stop dribbling is one of the best thing. There's the clip before where it's like, hey, Buddy, welcome to. Welcome to Steph Curry. He's, like, one of the best players of all time.
- [32:26]
Big Waz
Yeah.
- [32:26]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah. Buddy was pretty good in this game.
- [32:29]
Rob Mahoney
He really wants. Yeah.
- [32:31]
Justin Ferrier
Hey. He just keeps having those moments, and it definitely draws the ire, I think, of some of the old guard guys.
- [32:36]
Rob Mahoney
But having him as that pressure release on the weak side was huge. And it's the reason you can play guys like Peyton ultimately. And why Pajemski, I'll say, too, deserves a lot of credit for his play in chaos. Right. Against all of these stilted defensive rotations, these weird transition situations that Steph creates where the Rockets are pressed up way too high, and you just see Pajimski cutting through all of it to draw fouls and to get to the rim and to open up shots for other people. Uh, notably absent at the end of this game was Jonathan Kuminga, who started it, and I will say Steve Kerr did everything possible. Reconfiguring the entire starting lineup to suit Jonathan Kuminga in Jimmy Butler's absence. And if. If there was going to be a Kuminga game, this was going to be it. He had seven points on seven shots was not a consideration by the end of the game. I. I think we can really put this one to bed, guys.
- [33:26]
Big Waz
He's. But he stayed ready, though.
- [33:28]
Justin Ferrier
Well, Moody was ready. Who came off the bench after starting how many games in a row?
- [33:34]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [33:34]
Justin Ferrier
He didn't seem affected by it.
- [33:36]
Big Waz
No, he's A gamer. And the thing is Moody knows how to play. That's the difference.
- [33:42]
Rob Mahoney
That simple.
- [33:43]
Big Waz
It's really that simple. Like Kaminga was just lost out there, couldn't do anything right. And you know, again, it's like you want to empower these young guys because he thinks of himself as a ball dominant kind of guy. I'm going to, I'm going to break guys down off the dribble and all of that. And he was doing some of that, but he was breaking himself more than he was breaking the rockets. And you know, it is what it is. And I wonder too, like, and this is me, this is not me having talked to anybody or whatever, I wonder if this was a lake up thing. Like, yo, Jimmy's, Jimmy's out. Like our guy Kaminga has to get in here, right? And no, it doesn't have to.
- [34:23]
Rob Mahoney
I think it probably was a Kerr thing. Just like again, you, you kind of saw it in the first half. Like, where else are you going to get offense with Jimmy out? Like at least throw a theoretically dynamic offensive player into the starting lineup and try to get as much shooting around him as possible. Try to play into the sort of like counter punching offense that he can give you. Relative to the Steph, beautiful game, it just wasn't there. And you saw, you saw like a really kind of painful balance for Kuminga of like he was kind of trying to get other guys involved but he's not very good at it. And then some positions he would just fall into his worst instincts and hold onto way too long and pump fake 12 times into a turnover. It wasn't good. It did not work. And again, you see some of that from young players on the Rocket side too. The one exception to that, and I was not prepared to say this, Jabari Smith Jr. I thought played a rock solid game and this is a great contrast point for him and Jonathan Kuminga. Jonathan Kuminga is a really fluid athlete, a guy who will pop if you watch him in a one on one workout, if you see him in certain highlight reels, Jabari gets grief all the time for being a little too mechanical, a little too robotic. Pretty rigid athlete ultimately. What did he do? He stood in the corner, took quick decision, catch and shoot threes. Fucking Candom every time they came his way. Also on defense, I thought was just completely locked in and dedicated on the Steph scouting report as far as what you can really realistically ask a big to do. Switching on to Steph, Jabari Smith did it. And like these are the little Things that make Jabari Smith a successful like 20 to 25 minute player in this game. And ultimately Jonathan Kaminga not and ultimately not even be able to play that much for the warriors when they desperately need him to play.
- [36:02]
Justin Ferrier
Jabari Smith will look really good doing that off of Devin Booker this off season because they know a little bit of offense. They only scored 93 points in this one. I'm sure that's what led to the Kaminga start because they thought Kerr probably thought they were going to have to score more than 104. But this was kind of a weird game. Did you guys, since we're always talking about what people are eating before games, did you guys hear the note that Brandon Pajemski apparently had food poisoning last game? It was because of. He said some bad sushi. Yeah, if you ever had bad sushi. One, are you eating sushi sushi before a game? Like the type of thing you guys would reach for?
- [36:38]
Rob Mahoney
Well, I think it was implied. It was like an off day kind of thing. Maybe.
- [36:42]
Justin Ferrier
Well, even in between games, like would.
- [36:44]
Big Waz
You be sushi situations like that's way better than Alfredo pasta.
- [36:51]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, but was he going out to like a fancy sushi place or was he going to like a bodega sushi place?
- [36:56]
Big Waz
You think he's getting like 711 sushi or something?
- [36:58]
Rob Mahoney
Oh yeah. There was even a sideswipe at like, oh, getting sushi in Houston. Houston has plenty of great sushi. This is a wonderful seafood city. Don't, don't, don't mess around like this. Don't do that sashimi.
- [37:12]
Justin Ferrier
Are we talking like I could, I could see some crab or something like that.
- [37:16]
Rob Mahoney
There is great sashimi. There's great, both modern and traditional sushi in Houston. This is uncalled for.
- [37:23]
Big Waz
They just stick to crudo. Is that what you're saying?
- [37:26]
Justin Ferrier
I think you should be like crawfish broils or something like that.
- [37:30]
Rob Mahoney
It's not just a crawfish city. It's a Vietnamese fusion crawfish city. And in addition to that, a very robust sushi scene. So I thought, I thought that was needless, frankly.
- [37:39]
Big Waz
Now In Houston in 2022, one of the most big backed cities in the history of America, I'll tell you that much.
- [37:46]
Justin Ferrier
That's nothing to do with sushi people.
- [37:48]
Big Waz
My lord have mercy.
- [37:50]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, I'll say this. I do think California is the type of place that has good quality sushi at low quality establishments. You know, it's easier to find good sushi in low places. That point when the ringer first opened, we had an office downtown Hollywood. And there were a lot of people from the office that would make the trek. Long walk to, like, Hollywood proper, right by the Arc Light Seminole. So, like, like, really in the heart of Hollywood to. I think it was a Walgreens that had just like a ton of sushi. And for the while I was like, what are you guys doing? You're all going to die.
- [38:25]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [38:25]
Justin Ferrier
And I, I tried it once. Not that bad.
- [38:28]
Rob Mahoney
So I, I still think they were gonna die if they continue. That's what they're doing. That's the kind of roulette I don't want to play. Okay, Walgreens, come on.
- [38:37]
Justin Ferrier
I'm telling you, next time you're in la, go hit up a Walgreens and be pleasantly surprised.
- [38:43]
Rob Mahoney
Simply will not.
- [38:44]
Justin Ferrier
All right, anything else from this one? How do you guys. How are you guys feeling going forward? Anything swayed you in the Rockets direction?
- [38:50]
Big Waz
You know, a lot of times in these playoff series, like, what's the adjustment? What are they going to do differently? Are they going to guard Steph differently? Are they going to try this? Are they going to. There's no adjustment. You got to make shots. Yeah, that's it. That's. That's the adjustment. You know, not shoot collectively 39% from the field. Like, you gotta make shots. That's it.
- [39:12]
Rob Mahoney
Especially when I thought they played maybe two full quarters, maybe two and a half quarters of pretty good technical defense on Steph. Like, you know, Fred Van Vliet was doing a good job. I meant Thompson was doing a good job. I thought they were handling it as.
- [39:24]
Big Waz
Bad as well as they could in the first half.
- [39:26]
Rob Mahoney
They had it. They had it there. If they could only put any kind of scoring run together. And like, that's the trouble right now is once that, once all the water gets shut off in transition, once the offensive rebounding game kind of equalizes, where are you finding your advantages? And right now, their athleticism, and they have a lot of it is just not manifesting any kind of sustainable offensive advantage.
- [39:49]
Justin Ferrier
The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA playoffs are finally here, and there's no better way to be a part of the action than with FanDuel a America's number one sportsbook. After another competitive season, the top teams are ready to battle their way through the playoff bracket in hopes of taking home the championship. And if you think you know how it's all going to go down, then make those predictions pay off with FanDuel and NBA profit boosts simply make your bet, activate your boost and go for even bigger winnings. So we're looking at Sunday's slate jam packed with four games. We're looking at that late game. You're right. Yeah, I'm going to go with the Indiana Pacers plus four and a half at Milwaukee. A little confused about this line. I know that Giannis has been just awesome this postseason. He probably will again. Dame also came through but I don't know to the Bucks. Are they that good? I'm a little surprised that they are giving points in this one so I'm taking the points with the Pacers. I know I don't love the Pacers, but I think they're considerably better as a team and that's what we're betting here. Give me Pacers plus four and a half Game four in Milwaukee. Lock it in and don't just be a spectator this Postseason. Head to FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to download America's number one sportsbook and make every moment more must be 21 + and present in select states or 18 + and present in DC. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply including any token expiration. Maxwell see terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com.
- [41:35]
Big Waz
This.
- [41:35]
Justin Ferrier
Episode is brought to you by Degree Original Cool Rush Deodorant. So remember last year when people got really mad when Degree changed their Cool Rush formula? One dude even started a petition. Well guess what? Degree listened, admitted they messed up and are bringing the original Cool Rush scent back. You've gotta love when a brand can own its mistakes and it's in Walmart, Target and other stores now for under $4. Grab some and find out why it's been the number one men's antiperspirant for the last decade. The original Degree Cool Rush is back and it smells like victory for all of us. Well, while the rest of the west is arm wrestling game in and game out, the Thunder are skipping straight to the second win the series in a sweet furrow against the Grizzlies. Pretty good showing from the Grizzlies. They get the golf clap for showing up two straight games in order to end this out. They didn't have John Morant in this one who refused to be on camera just for the people in the booth to pick an alternate view and stay on.
- [42:39]
Rob Mahoney
Inspired.
- [42:40]
Justin Ferrier
That was really good. I think if we're looking at the Thunder side of this before we look ahead on the Grizzlies, I think they checked a lot of the boxes they were hoping for for a first round sweep from Thunder, consistent scoring from J Dub 20 pretty much every single game, including a couple of big buckets in this one in order to close it out. You saw legitimate moments from Chet Holmgren, especially in Game 3. But he had a nice steal toward the end of this game. The defense showed up. You know, there wasn't any sort of like rotational issues. They just seem dialed in. Rob, is there anything else that I'm missing in terms of like check marks you were hoping to see that you did or did not see?
- [43:14]
Rob Mahoney
I guess just kind of like lower stakes, training wheels, clutch situations, rally. They actually had some competitive games over this last week. And so the idea that, okay, you get to trot out your what's going to be your closing five, which is Isaiah Hardenstein not in that group. Alex Caruso subbed in and we've seen the chaos that he can create. Kevin Pelton pointed out of ESPN pointed out that that lineup, basically the starters, but with Caruso instead of Hardenstein, only played 16 minutes together in the regular season. All the guys ins and outs. Caruso obviously missed a lot of time. It was I think kind of strategically probably held back in spots to load, manage his way here. So could be this player in this moment. And you're seeing why I'm sure some of that is matchup dependent, right? Caruso we saw neutralize Jared Jackson Jr. Multiple times over the course of these last couple games. He's clearly an incredibly skilled perimeter defender in his right, guarding all kinds of matchups. But that looks like a really tough group to have to mess with in crunch time. And Chad Holmgren came up with a huge crunch time steal on Scotty Pippen Jr. That forced Scotty Pippen Jr. To foul him and foul himself out of the game in the process. Just like huge plays in a game that ultimately doesn't mean that much, but it means something. You're in the somewhat pressure packed situation. You get to practice fouling up three, right. Like you're going through the paces of what it's going to take strategically to close out some of these games. And for the Thunder, that's an incredible luxury after the dominance of their season.
- [44:35]
Big Waz
I got to say, Rob, I completely disagree. These people got really functional equivalent of a first round buy. They have not started playing in the playoffs yet, bro. No, this team, first of all, one of these games they beat him by 50.
- [44:50]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. Okay, we're throwing that one out. We're throwing that one out. That's the tone.
- [44:54]
Big Waz
And in this game right here, John Morant's not even playing. Like, they. First of all, they allowed this group of grizzlies to drop 115 on them. What do we know? They didn't try on defense. They were just like, this is not a serious game, these guys. This is not a serious opponent. We're gonna sleepwalk through this thing and ultimately close them out. I would say, like, they didn't have a playoff series series, you know, and shouts to them for taking care of business. Like, you know, Memphis isn't a serious outfit. And they treated him like that and got him up out of here in four, four games. But I do think, like, this has kind of been a joke, to be honest. This entire series smoked them by 50, then another win by 20, and then finally, you know, Memphis has one good half for the entire series and still end up losing that one of the.
- [45:39]
Rob Mahoney
Biggest comebacks in playoff history.
- [45:41]
Big Waz
Yeah, you know, I'm not even saying.
- [45:43]
Rob Mahoney
This was like a 48 minute, like, professional clinic from.
- [45:47]
Big Waz
They fouled down through their practice and they played.
- [45:49]
Rob Mahoney
No, they literally are.
- [45:51]
Big Waz
This is a joke. This series is a joke. And Memphis. And Memphis made it.
- [45:56]
Justin Ferrier
So let me ask you about this, because I think we were all pretty high on Jaren Jackson coming into this postseason. Really kind of recalibrated, at least from my perspective. Like, where his ceiling might lie wasn't the best performance with him kind of in the spotlight. Where are you, Rob? Like, maybe in terms of Jackson, did this, like, postseason bring you a little bit lower on him, or did you end up probably in the same place you ended the regular season with him?
- [46:23]
Rob Mahoney
I'm maybe slightly lower, but ultimately the Thunderer are a bad matchup for him. Right. A team that's this small, that's that active with their hands is not going to be his. His best place. Like, he's better punishing bigs than he is punishing Smalls ultimately. Plus, he's just not a credible first option on a contending team.
- [46:40]
Justin Ferrier
That's.
- [46:40]
Rob Mahoney
That's not who he is. And he's had to be that for the Grizzlies at many points this season because of their injury situations and because jaws as. As kind of up and down as he is even when he is healthy. Ideally you have a playmaker who's putting the ball in his hands and you're not having Jaren Jackson bring the ball up court as your point guard. But the Grizzlies had to do that sometimes. Like, that's that's ultimately what their lineup looked like by the end of this series. And so I think this is a bad matchup. I think this is a bad spot. I think he had some awful games within this series. This closeout, one included, like, just was not good enough from Jaren Jackson Jr. But ultimately I think of him as a really good second or third best player on a team that's really fighting for something. And the Grizzlies aren't fighting for something because they don't have those players.
- [47:24]
Big Waz
Yeah, nothing's changed for me. I'm, I've never really been crazy high. I think he's a good player. Obviously I'm not, You know, it doesn't take a scientist to figure that out. It's just for me, offensively, he doesn't have a thing, you know, like, what's his go to? What is Jaren Jackson really good at on offense? I don't think he has anything that you can say that about. And that's my main issue with him. As, you know, a star like your first star better be somebody who can just go supernova on offense and create for others and create these advantages. Because Jaren Jackson Jr. Just will never put defenses in any kind of panic. Know, you know, he's a credible shooter, but nobody panics when Jaren Jackson is shooting. And maybe that's just biased because he's got one of the ugliest forms, but, like, it's just he doesn't put defenses in a bind. And that's ultimately why I'll never be too crazy about him in terms of his ability to carry a team through in the postseason. But, you know, John Moran got hurt again and we are with Memphis.
- [48:31]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, Yeah. I do think not only the performance here, not only job being out, but also this is an entree into probably a bigger picture conversation, which I think the Grizzlies are going to have to look in the mirror this offseason and say, what do we want to be? Do we want to hitch our wagon to JA and still go through the motions of like, well, he won't he play? And also some of the off the court sort of stuff, or have we seen enough without him that we're ready to move on? If we are going to move on? What does that look like? What should we be targeting in order to do so? And so I want to assemble my war room here. I want to, I want to get all my assistant GMs here, my tape guy, my, my, my, my personnel guy, and we're going to come to a conclusion here because I have decided that we're going to trade John Moran. That is the issue on the table here.
- [49:14]
Rob Mahoney
Okay. And you've not gone Nico Harrison and met with somebody in a coffee shop and already traded John Moran. You. You want to have a conversation with us about it?
- [49:23]
Justin Ferrier
I may have lined up some stuff in advance, but I do want to get your feedback here because I appreciate the give and take here. This is a. This is a. A full functioning front office. Okay. No heat checks. I think you can go one of two ways, and I do wonder if they will do one of them. You could either say, we want to trade our problem for someone else's problem. We are built to win. Now we have all these guys on the same timeline on Jaws. Timeline. What we really need is someone to just be there. A star that we could hitch our wagon to and just basically have a same but different version of what we have. Right? That's. That's door number one. Door number two is like, well, actually, that's tough to pull off first and foremost. Like, who is that guy? And do we actually want to take a step back? We still are pretty young overall, and we also kind of nail every draft pick except for Zaire Williams. And so just to get a high pick is actually what we want. Do either of those, Rob, appeal to you more? If we do indeed want to trade ja?
- [50:22]
Rob Mahoney
If you want to trade ja, I would go the first route. Like, I think. I think the Grizzlies are still competitive and there's a lot to the roster to like to the point that it would. Honestly, it would take some work to tear it down to the point where you're going to actually lose a lot of games unless people are just hurt and out of the lineup like we've seen from them in recent seasons. So given that, I would be looking for a different kind of guard play because we've seen even like Scotty Pippen Jr. In there gives them a kind of, like, decent level of execution on a baseline level that can help them do some things. Not against the Thunder, but against a lot of different levels of competition in between.
- [50:58]
Justin Ferrier
What do you think was?
- [50:59]
Big Waz
I don't know, man. I like, obviously, I think the door number one is my favorite is to keep this thing rolling. Like, if you trade job for some reason, you get somebody who can actually go out and get you a bucket or, you know, be somebody that could play make for others on the team. Because if you don't do that, you're what the Houston Rockets were tonight against Golden State, you're just not a credible playoff offense whatsoever. And I think if you're, you know, Zach Kleiman in them in that front office and you can trick yourself into thinking maybe we get a coach in here who can get our guys to consistently play more like the team we saw in the first half of game three more often and that's what you maybe hang your hat on. But like the idea that they go out and get like, I don't know, the kid from Baylor or something like that, try to get a pick for Ja. I, I hate that honestly. As an, as an option again, you started the season 34 and 15 with this group with a bunch of guys in and out of the lineup. We know the regular season is kind of a fraud. So like obviously it doesn't mean the world but it's like there's the bones of a real team here and maybe I'm an idiot and this group will never put it together for whatever reason. You need to bring in new blood. But like I'd rather stand pat or if somebody's and I don't even know who this star is. Like, is it Devin Booker? Is it?
- [52:30]
Justin Ferrier
No, I'd be surprised if you can get Booker for.
- [52:32]
Big Waz
That's what I'm saying. Like who are you even doing that with?
- [52:36]
Justin Ferrier
Let me, let me throw this out there. Would you trade Ja for Trae Young?
- [52:40]
Rob Mahoney
No, I'm interested if I'm being honest.
- [52:44]
Justin Ferrier
Because it's really just the guy whose ceiling is higher but the day to day product is a little bit messier at least in terms of playing and not playing versus probably the, I don't know, Is he more cantankerous? Is he tougher to deal with on, on a personal level in Trey but is pretty consistently going to be out there. So at least you have that sort of certainty. That's I think what you're looking at here on. For a jaw trade level because like if anyone's trading for him, they're not going to give away their best assets. And for someone who isn't playing and might get into trouble off the court, it's very true.
- [53:20]
Rob Mahoney
And I think the other issue with that is for as much as like I appreciate a lot of elements of Trae Young's game, he is not the downhill threat that John Morant is. And if your co stars are Jaren Jackson Jr. And Desmond Bain, you need someone with actual downhill ohm4. So are you, are you just going to make an entirely jump shot driven offense from three guys who I will say Two of them, percentage wise are not always the best shooters in the world. That doesn't sound super sustainable to me.
- [53:46]
Big Waz
I'm not. I'm not doing that. I'm not doing a Trey Young thing. Like it's Lamello Ball.
- [53:55]
Justin Ferrier
It's a good name.
- [53:56]
Big Waz
You know, like Charlotte's put already put it out there. Like we're. Listen, we're open for business. If you guys want to make a deal. Yeah, call us. About this kid. We do not care to have him on our team anymore. Who like again, like who else is even out here?
- [54:11]
Rob Mahoney
At one point dear and Fox would have been out there. But now that he's spoken for. Right. Like that's. The market gets kind of weird once you clear past these first names that we've mentioned.
- [54:20]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah, it's a tough one. I would assume they do nothing, but I think they have to very least look at it.
- [54:27]
Rob Mahoney
Can we talk about that? Like, like decision to do nothing and ultimately like you came to this war room Justin, with I want to trade John Morant. I. I'm pretty conservative with this stuff when it comes to giving cores of teams time and letting them find their way and letting them find their shorthand in working together and kind of a developmental progress that is unified as far as guys learning how to grow and play together. This team has had like five years together. You know, like they've had chances and they have run into more or less the same walls over and over and over. And so I think it's fair to come into the off season with something resembling that kind of decision. If not ja at least like we want to come into next year with a team that looks and feels different than this that we have seen what this looks like. We decided we wanted to fire our coach. We were so displeased with the product on the one hand that says you expect more of your roster than you were getting. But I think more realistically you should expect a change in this roster if you want different results. Like that's probably what it's going to take.
- [55:24]
Justin Ferrier
That's going to be. My next question is did Isolo do enough in the. I think fewer than 10 games that he had at the helm there.
- [55:31]
Big Waz
He's fired.
- [55:33]
Justin Ferrier
Did the Marvin Bagley minutes convince you that like this guy is on to something.
- [55:37]
Rob Mahoney
They pulled the plug on those, by the way.
- [55:39]
Justin Ferrier
They did.
- [55:40]
Rob Mahoney
So it was a one game experiment really.
- [55:42]
Big Waz
He got put in an impossible position. It's not his fault. But yeah, no, I need somebody. I need my Kenny Atkinson. Listen, I need my guy that's going to turn this outfit around and not just, just change the way you play, man. Like, and the crazy thing to me is that, you know, three, four years ago they were known to be one of the best defensive teams in the NBA. That is just gone. That identity is poof up in smoke, man. Like, there was just moments against OKC which like, let's keep it a thousand. This is not some dynamic offense. They're not.
- [56:20]
Rob Mahoney
I mean it's a pretty good offense led by one of the best offensive players in the world.
- [56:24]
Big Waz
It's, it's. I'm not saying it's a bad one. It's not like it's impossible to conceive of a way to contain this offense from being like explosive. And they just straight up could not do that at any point in the series, which is just, I think that's just, you know, they gotta do something different.
- [56:42]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [56:43]
Justin Ferrier
Yep. I know Aslo is just getting some buzz for other sorts of jobs here, so. So yes, I don't think he acquitted himself per se and a lot of those openings are starting to close pretty quickly. But he is someone at the very much on the short list, I think you'll see for other organizations.
- [56:58]
Rob Mahoney
He also makes more sense for plan B of what you described, Justin, than plan A. If you want to maintain with a star and compete now, then you probably want more of a Kenny Atkinson style coach. And if you want to tear things down and take a step back and maybe even get younger than you are, then why not, you know, roll it with Tuomas Isolo and see kind of what he can bring to this group from like a more formative standpoint. Because I do like the young talent here as far as some of the younger guys, like, you know, Jalen Wells didn't have a chance to participate in this series, but proved himself to be Memphis's best defensive option on the wing for sure and one of their better two way wings overall. They might have something in Zach Edie. I kind of go back and forth on it, to be honest with you. He's doing a lot of stuff and sometimes it's too much of the wrong stuff. But you also see like, you just don't see players block Chet Holmgren multiple times in the same game very often. And so anyone who can do that is going to open my eyes a little bit and I think there's some real possibility there. And you know, Scottie Pippen Jr. Is not John Morant, but he's a really good young player who's found his way into the league, found a spot with this team and has two more years under contract, which is not nothing for the Grizzlies.
- [58:02]
Justin Ferrier
Last one on the board here. Cavs just absolutely toasted the Miami Heat. And despite Tyler Herro saying after the game, we're not going down four. Oh, I'm sorry, my guy. You're going down for. Because something amazing would have to happen for this not to be a sweep. Cavs just dominated even without Darius Garland out there. They just had their way with them pretty much from the jump. Anything that's jumped out to you, Rob, about the Cavs over these three games, is it basically like you're passing with flying colors? How many gold stars are we giving Ken Atkinson and the boys here?
- [58:33]
Rob Mahoney
Quite a few, I think. For one, I feel like if you want to, like, zoom out, say you didn't watch this game and you just check in on the box score and you see max Struz had 18 points, nine rebounds, five assists. That's a good max truce game.
- [58:45]
Justin Ferrier
Those are Denny AVD numbers.
- [58:47]
Rob Mahoney
Those are Denny AVD numbers. I feel like a good Max Drew game means a good flow game for the Cavs. It means that ball is popping. It means they are dribble penetrated, kicking out. Everything is working. And good lord, like, the ball movement in this game in particular against what is ostensibly a defense. First heat team, just blinding, like 32 assists on 48 shots is fucking nuts. No matter who you're playing against, even if it is an Eric Spoelstra team, even if it is a team that's. That is in the current state of this group. Like, I just, I'm. I find myself so impressed by, even at this level of competition. We were, you know, we were talking about the Cavs as a team to like, okay, did they take their foot off the gas down the back part of the regular season? Did they have anything interesting to play for or had, you know, did they peak a little earlier in the season than they might have liked? They're not leaving a lot of doubt right now for interpretation on that particular front. Like, they are taking care of business in the most emphatic way against the only opponent put fourth in front of them, which is not a playoff caliber team, mind you, but it is one that they're just running up the score on.
- [59:48]
Big Waz
Frankly, I think you could have said that the first two games were a little bit closer than probably we would have anticipated, just because I don't hold this Miami team in very high regard. But this was a game where it's just like, no, this team is not close to us. They cannot touch us. We smoked them on their home floor and basically, yeah, ended the series effectively today. And they deserve props for that. Like, I'm happy to see them playing this way because, you know, at various points in the season I'm like, man, I don't know, is this the kind of team that could challenge Boston, like, seriously in the Eastern Conference finals? And just watching these guys handle their business and play at their best, they feel like a championship contender type of team. Which is exciting, exciting to see because like, unlike okc, where, you know, most people like, nah, yeah, yeah, no, this is a championship contended team. I think the Cavs people had to be brought along with that thought, you know, the, the five all star Hawks coming up and stuff like that. I think it's been nice, I thought it was nice today that they, they showed that they were a little bit more than just some nice story.
- [61:00]
Justin Ferrier
I know it's not groundbreaking to suggest that, like, getting an easier opponent at the, if you finish with the best record is an advantage, feels like more of an advantage than ever before. Because if you look at like the Thunder, for instance, like, let's say the Nuggets make it out of that, presumably six, probably seven game series. Like, is Jokic going to have to, like, use a marionette in order to be his fifth teammate at some points versus the, you know, like the Cavs, for instance, are going to waltz in probably into the second round. Whereas, like, you have Jaylen Brown basically complaining that the Magic are playing too tough against him, like that might go six and all of a sudden, like, those guys might be more injured. Like, it does seem like those, like, compounding effects matter more than ever before. And just getting the first seed is probably going to make a huge difference, more so than it has in the.
- [61:50]
Rob Mahoney
Past, I think, especially because the Cavs bench is so good. And so when you get into some of these later series when the stars on other teams might already be feeling the effects of, of playing through three series in a row, one against the Orlando Magic, you know, the other one might be more of a dogfight than they expect. And all of a sudden you're playing the Cavs, we're already seeing how like, ty Jerome and DeAndre Hunter can kind of keep applying pressure on, on teams when they come in. And like, the fact that those two guys get to play with either Jared Allen or Evan Mobley for basically all their minutes on the floor, an incredible luxury and one that I think is what lends itself to the Cavs being really over the course of this entire season. But we saw it in this game in particular. Just one of the best burst teams as far as like they can roll off an 180 run, a 20 to 2 run like it's nothing. And some of that becomes down to like their offense and the firepower being what it is. But like those guys can guard too. Like they can get after, they can protect the rim. They're not that way all the time, like fully on a string defensively every minute that they're out there. But they guard at a high level enough that you really feel the heat coming from their offense.
- [62:51]
Justin Ferrier
It's good. Feel the heat that was.
- [62:53]
Rob Mahoney
I wish, I wish I hadn't unfortunately. But sometimes you walk into it it.
- [62:57]
Justin Ferrier
Hunter was awesome in this game. Ty Jerome, always awesome. Can't wait to see him later in the playoffs when he'll get more shine. I know he's been, he's been very good and he's will continue to be very good.
- [63:06]
Rob Mahoney
Jared Allen, A playoff career high 22 points. Friend of the pod Jared Allen just carve carving these dudes up on the backside.
- [63:15]
Justin Ferrier
Unfortunately for the Heat, we're not going to wait for their fourth game. We have to convene the war room because we need to get ahead the long term planning just a little bit early because there's nothing else is going to go on here. I would say the Heat at a similar place as the Grizzlies where they have something. Maybe on a lesser tier, but they have something. But I'm not quite sure where they go from here. Their picks slightly encumbered because they owe a lottery protected pick in 2027 to the Hornets that becomes unprotected next year just becomes a little difficulty, a little difficult with the Stepien role there. But they basically have an option to determine who they are at this point. And I think they have a similar sort of question where it's like do you want to take a step back or do you really want to punch it forward? And you guys might be saying it's fucking south beach. Like what are we talking about here? My problem is like let's say they get anybody. Let's just say Kevin Durant for a sake of conversations. Sure is Kevin Durant, Tyler hero, bam, out of bio. Like lighting the world on fire.
- [64:19]
Rob Mahoney
At any point it's not nothing.
- [64:22]
Justin Ferrier
It's not nothing. But is it enough in order to deal with the Cavs, for instance.
- [64:26]
Rob Mahoney
But again you, you sped past the operative point here, which is you work for Pat Riley. And therefore we are moving forward.
- [64:33]
Justin Ferrier
I am Pat Riley.
- [64:34]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, you're Pat Riley.
- [64:35]
Big Waz
Okay.
- [64:36]
Rob Mahoney
In that case, you're not yelling at us enough. You need to be much angrier.
- [64:40]
Justin Ferrier
We could make that happen.
- [64:43]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. I just think there's never going to be a point at which they really step back, back. I think it's just going to be forward, forward, forward all the way through.
- [64:49]
Justin Ferrier
But what, what is your advice was like, this is. Speak freely here.
- [64:55]
Big Waz
I mean, what's out there besides kd? And I wonder how much it would take to get him in there in terms of what they have to send back to the Suns. Again, we just mentioned the names Trey Young. Like, who, who are they going to call about that would realistically be available?
- [65:20]
Rob Mahoney
Would you call on someone like Zion?
- [65:22]
Justin Ferrier
Yes.
- [65:24]
Big Waz
Yeah, I think that would be the kind of low risk kind of move.
- [65:28]
Rob Mahoney
Low risk. Yeah.
- [65:30]
Justin Ferrier
I mean, it's.
- [65:32]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, I see that part. Yes.
- [65:34]
Big Waz
And if they could be like, look, we get this guy a change of scenery and we do the military that we do down here where we, we like literally measuring guys body fats on their guts and all of that stuff, like that's something. I would take a flyer on it. Like, how much years is left on Zion's deal? It can't possibly be like, there's a couple more. Yeah, a crazy amount of years. That's the. Yeah, that's a fun kind of idea because, you know, you basically bet on your institutional excellence to get this guy over the hump. And I still do think Zion, when he's right, is capable of being an all star level player. But when is this guy ever been right? And I mean, I think you gotta believe at this point it's just not going to happen for him in New Orleans.
- [66:19]
Rob Mahoney
So he's got three more full seasons. Guaranteed. Three more full seasons under contract, partial guarantee, slash non guarantees. Ultimately, like, if something devastating happened, you would not be financially responsible. But I mean, I don't even know what it would take to get Zion at this point. Like, his market is impossible to establish. Is there a. Is there a realm of possibility for the Heat to trade for someone like him without giving up Bam or Tyler Hero, who are the core of your team at this point.
- [66:46]
Justin Ferrier
I think New Orleans wants to get rid of Zion despite what they're saying, pulling back and basically being like, there's no mandate to get rid of them. There's a mandate to get rid of them. They don't change the organization over just to bring back the same problems that they had.
- [67:00]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [67:01]
Justin Ferrier
And So I would guess he's available for what? I would say probably less than we assume. But you're inheriting all the same problems. On the one hand, I think Zion needs Miami. He needs rigidity, he needs the structure. Unfortunately, I think there's like a very real possibility that he ends up with like Sam Rockwell in the White Lotus and he just goes off and. And we just don't hear from that guy for years. He's doing all types of stuff. He thinks he's some other type of person.
- [67:27]
Big Waz
I'll tell you what, there's no shortage of the type of chicks Zion has shown himself to be into in South Beach, I'll tell you that much.
- [67:34]
Justin Ferrier
These are the type of scouting reports you don't get outside of the war room, let me tell you.
- [67:38]
Big Waz
Shortage of them, boy, I just don't know what plethora.
- [67:43]
Justin Ferrier
I just don't know what the Heat are anymore. Which is surprising because even in the post LeBron period.
- [67:49]
Big Waz
Always are though. Like when they're not actually really good, they're always in some in between. Yeah, Purgatory phase. Like this is always it. This is, is the White side years. This is the Dion Waiters years. Like this is what is always happening with this organization. And like, would you guys recommend getting. I guess getting KD would be just a lot better than what they are right now.
- [68:12]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, more fun.
- [68:14]
Justin Ferrier
They'd be fun. Yeah, it'd be a fun like top four seed probably.
- [68:18]
Big Waz
And you know, they've been dying for KD pretty much since he went to Golden State. Like, they thought they were in on KD for. On the. When he did the Brooklyn thing, they thought they were in on him when he ended up going to the Phoenix Suns. And so, yeah, maybe they finally get their guy, their white whale, if you will, and they complete the circle.
- [68:41]
Rob Mahoney
I don't mind it. And I don't mind it in part because I think Tyler Hero has done a good enough job of being a functional point guard, but not the kind of functional point guard that's going to make your offense like elite on its own. Like, he needs, he needs a really high level offensive player to kind of co pilot with. Is Kevin Durant, that guy at this age more or less certainly hyper efficient on individual level. But we saw what happened in Phoenix when he was playing alongside another quite good combo guard, and it wasn't anything good, frankly. But these are the options I think the Heat are going to have in front of them. Right. They are just good enough offensively for us to praise Tyler Hero and Admire what he's doing. They're just competent enough defensively for us to look at Bam and say job well done. Bam out of bio. Like, you know you're a really good team defender and kind of just consistently outside that really elite class of defender that could carry a system all your own. What do you need to get over the top? The answer is like a little of everything in every place of the rotation. Like the depth is not good enough, the high end star power isn't good enough. But spots number two and three on the depth chart are quite good. I just don't know what you do with a team like that.
- [69:48]
Justin Ferrier
And see, this is what I want to go out on because at a certain time, maybe like a year ago or two years ago, I'd say the Heat are very good at drafting lower in the lottery or even beyond that. They find guys Hero and Bam were two draft picks that they built up into the players that they are. Well, but that's the thing. Beyond where it gets a little dicey, a little quickly. Hawkez can't even get into a playoff rotation where there's a lot of guys he should be beating out at this point. Jovic definitely his Wayne since last year. He showed promise. Don't think he's ultimately going to be a solution.
- [70:23]
Rob Mahoney
He had some injury issues as well this season. It's like maybe a healthy Jovic season is a little better than this, but it's not changing your world.
- [70:31]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah. And so like they have the 20th pick in this draft. They basically fall five places from the draft pick they're giving away to the Thunder. They get back the warriors, so not that much difference. They're going to get a similar type of player that it's really more of a bet, probably a rotation player, probably not much better. And so the feeder system just isn't there at this point. Like I just. They're like they lack talent in a way that I'm surprised by because they actually maintained a lot of the assets that they would typically trade away in previous years.
- [71:02]
Rob Mahoney
Can I tell you the good news? The bottom of the of the Eastern Conference is dog shit and they're going to be right back in the plan next year even if they don't do anything. Facts.
- [71:11]
Justin Ferrier
Can I ask you this? If you were to rank the young players, how would you organize them? If it's where Hawkez, Jovic, I mean.
- [71:19]
Rob Mahoney
Where'S number one with the bullet? Yeah, for sure.
- [71:22]
Big Waz
What are the next two such a toolsy guy.
- [71:26]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, yeah. Playable. Hawkez is had a really rough trajectory.
- [71:31]
Big Waz
Just a terrible player this year. That's crazy. Yeah. It's gotta be Jovic. He actually played in games that mattered this year. Year.
- [71:40]
Rob Mahoney
What's the cut?
- [71:40]
Big Waz
Folster's just telling you, like, this guy's not good. He just doesn't have it.
- [71:44]
Rob Mahoney
What's the cutoff for young players? Like, is Davion Mitchell still a young player? He's 26, I want to say.
- [71:50]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah. I mean, he's a little bit older, going on his second contract next year, which is probably the line of demarcation.
- [71:56]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [71:56]
Justin Ferrier
But certainly.
- [71:57]
Rob Mahoney
Well, as we compare Heat teams present to past, you know, like, the. Ultimately, the. The teams they overpaid for, the James Johnson, Deion Waiters kinds of teams, the good news is, even though this team technically overperformed and technically made the playoffs, there aren't a bunch of guys in line for huge paydays. Right. There's not a bunch of expiring contracts where you're going to say, you know what, Kelly Olenek, here's your big new deal to carry us into the new era of Heat basketball. Like, this is their team, and they're kind of locked in at their current salary numbers. Unless they start moving. Guys like Andrew Wiggins, I'm sure, has more value elsewhere than here, frankly, given his fit with the team. Like, I understand why they would want someone with his kind of, like, situational upside. But. But I don't know. I just don't like this roster very much.
- [72:40]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah. Eric Spoelstra showed up to the postgame press conference with, like, a gold chain on and a very, like, divorced dad sort of thing going on here. So, like, it's a whole new era.
- [72:51]
Big Waz
South beach, baby. Let's go.
- [72:53]
Justin Ferrier
Last thing before we get out here, before game three, we in the group chat, group trap. We're talking about the horse heads that they gave out on the wall.
- [73:02]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [73:03]
Justin Ferrier
Which I thought was inspired. Apparently, for this game, they gave out a bunch of stuffed dino chicken nuggets to distract the nuggets.
- [73:12]
Rob Mahoney
What's the story there?
- [73:14]
Justin Ferrier
Because they're nuggets.
- [73:15]
Rob Mahoney
Well, yeah, but why would that distract them? Wouldn't you just say is, what. What's with that stuffed dinosaur? How would you even ID it as a nugget?
- [73:24]
Justin Ferrier
Maybe it was, like, a playoff of Mr. Nugget. Maybe they're, like, trying to get in. Aaron Gordon said, like, marketing needs to go back.
- [73:30]
Big Waz
Game Ops needs to go back to the drone board with that.
- [73:33]
Rob Mahoney
I feel like. I feel like this was Jurassic World Spawn Con. Like, they infiltrated what was a good bit into now a marketing bit and I don't appreciate it.
- [73:41]
Justin Ferrier
Those horse heads aren't going to pay for themselves, you know.
- [73:44]
Rob Mahoney
What are they, 995 like they can't be that expensive. Okay. Nothing is 9.95 these days.
- [73:50]
Justin Ferrier
1995, maybe some sushi, maybe some Walgreens.
- [73:53]
Big Waz
Sushi probably definitely made in China, too.
- [73:56]
Justin Ferrier
Yeah. All right.
- [73:59]
Rob Mahoney
I want to know the tariffs on the horse heads. What are we paying?
- [74:04]
Justin Ferrier
All right. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz for staying up late with us. We'll be back Wednesday night into Thursday morning for the next round of games. We will talk to you. Must be 21 plus and present in select state states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support and in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.