Grizzlies Conceding Their Season? Plus, Pistons-Wolves Scuffle of the Year! | Real Ones

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ringer NBA Show - "Grizzlies Conceding Their Season? Plus, Pistons-Wolves Scuffle of the Year! | Real Ones"

Release Date: April 1, 2025

---

Introduction

In this episode of The Ringer NBA Show, titled "Grizzlies Conceding Their Season? Plus, Pistons-Wolves Scuffle of the Year! | Real Ones," hosts Logan Murdoch, Raja Bell, and Howard Beck delve into a tumultuous period in the NBA, focusing on the recent scuffle between the Detroit Pistons and Minnesota Timberwolves and the surprising coaching changes within the Memphis Grizzlies. The discussion offers in-depth analysis, historical context, and insights into the implications of these events on the teams' futures and the broader NBA landscape.

---

Pistons-Wolves Scuffle: Analyzing the Feud

[02:25] The episode kicks off with Logan Murdoch highlighting the unexpected brawl during the Pistons-Wolves game, prompting Raja Bell to downplay the severity of the incident. Raja explains, "It wasn't a brawl. There was some pushing and shoving, but it wasn't on the level of historical NBA brawls" ([02:25]).

Howard Beck adds historical context, contrasting the recent scuffle with more severe past incidents, such as the Pistons-Knicks brawl involving Carmelo Anthony ([05:00]). He remarks, "By modern standards, this one was alarming in terms of sheer numbers, but it didn't escalate to the level of throwing punches like in the old days" ([04:14]).

The hosts discuss the different perceptions of brawls across eras, with Howard noting that modern brawls tend to be less physically violent but still pose significant issues, especially when they spill into the stands ([05:20]).

---

Memphis Grizzlies: Coaching Turmoil and Team Dynamics

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the Memphis Grizzlies' abrupt decision to fire Coach Taylor Jenkins with only nine games left in the regular season. Howard Beck expresses astonishment at the timing, stating, "Firing a coach with nine games left when the team is still in playoff contention is incredibly unusual" ([24:02]).

Raja Bell supports Howard's perspective, emphasizing the professional misstep of altering leadership so late in the season without allowing the coach to finish out the regular games. He remarks, "If they're going to make a change, why wait? They already know where this is going" ([28:02]).

Logan Murdoch raises concerns about the Grizzlies' front office decisions, comparing them to the Sacramento Kings for undermining coaching authority. He asserts, "The perception is right now, for better or worse, is that the Grizzlies don't know what they're doing" ([31:57]).

Howard Beck defends the Grizzlies by acknowledging the frictions within the team that led to Jenkins' dismissal. He explains, "There were cracks behind the scenes between the coaching staff and players, leading to defensive and offensive breakdowns" ([24:02]). Furthermore, he praises the front office's conviction to make decisive changes, stating, "They have the conviction to decide and act on it rather than meandering through the rest of the season" ([30:02]).

---

Implications for the Pistons and Timberwolves

The conversation shifts to the Detroit Pistons and Minnesota Timberwolves, analyzing how recent events affect their playoff prospects.

Howard Beck highlights the Pistons' competitive spirit despite disciplinary setbacks, noting their standing in the Eastern Conference and key player performances, such as Cade Cunningham's contributions ([13:25]). He suggests that the Pistons' fiery temperament could be an asset in the playoffs, even amidst suspensions.

Raja Bell echoes this sentiment, believing that the Pistons' aggressive playstyle reflects their readiness for high-stakes playoff basketball. He comments, "A team that's cut their teeth and made a statement shows backbone" ([13:25]).

Conversely, the Minnesota Timberwolves are portrayed as redeeming themselves mid-season, with an impressive 11-4 record over their last 15 games and a strong net rating ([18:13]). Howard Beck points out, "Their recent performance shows they're more competitive than their current standing might suggest" ([18:13]).

Logan Murdoch adds that the Timberwolves have been one of the hottest teams post-All-Star break, maintaining their playoff position through consistent play despite a tough schedule ([19:24]). The hosts agree that both teams have tangible playoff implications but acknowledge the uncertainty surrounding their final performances ([20:03]).

---

Ja Morant and the Future of the Grizzlies

A critical discussion ensues regarding Ja Morant, the Grizzlies' star player, and his role within the team amidst the coaching upheaval.

Howard Beck expresses concerns about Morant's longevity and health, stating, "His playing style and build play a role in his durability" ([44:35]). He questions whether Morant can evolve his game beyond athleticism to become a top-tier player capable of leading Memphis deep into the playoffs ([48:58]).

Raja Bell concurs, emphasizing the need for Morant to develop his shooting and overall game to complement his existing skills. He suggests that without these improvements, Morant's ability to carry the team will be limited ([48:49]). Raja highlights, "If you continue to ride on athleticism without sharpening other tools, it's harder to sustain success" ([52:29]).

Logan Murdoch reflects on Morant's evolution, comparing him to historical players like Derrick Rose who had to develop additional skills to maintain their competitiveness. He underscores the importance of Morant's offensive development for Memphis's future success ([48:58]).

---

Listener Mailbag: Tanking and On-Court Violence

The show transitions to the Mailbag segment, addressing listeners' questions and suggestions.

Question 1: Incentivizing Wins to Prevent Tanking

Cliff presents a listener proposal suggesting that teams must win a minimum number of games to be eligible for higher draft picks. For example:

• First three picks: At least 20 wins.
• Picks four and five: At least 15 wins.
• Picks six through ten: Teams with 14 or fewer wins could have their picks dispersed via a drawing ([61:11]).

Howard Beck responds by discussing the complexities of the NBA draft system and the incentives to tank. He explains that while such proposals aim to promote competitiveness, they often lead to shifting incentives rather than eliminating tanking entirely. Howard notes, "The league has to balance encouraging competitiveness without completely removing opportunities for struggling teams to rebuild" ([58:00]).

Raja Bell expresses mixed feelings about the proposal, recognizing the intention to foster competition but questioning its effectiveness in practice. He states, "If teams remain non-competitive despite incentives, the proposal might not yield the desired outcomes" ([63:53]).

Question 2: Pistons-Wolves Scuffle and Responsibility

Cliff shares a listener's concern about the Pistons-Wolves scuffle, particularly focusing on Dante DiVincenzo's aggressive behavior towards rookie Ron Holland. The listener questions whether older players bear more responsibility for on-court violence due to age and experience differences ([70:19]).

Raja Bell responds by asserting the importance of professionalism regardless of age. He emphasizes, "In a professional league, players are responsible for their actions on the court. Age shouldn't diminish that accountability" ([70:25]). Raja dismisses the notion of bullying, highlighting that both players are adults capable of handling conflicts appropriately ([70:41]).

---

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with the hosts reflecting on the intense discussions about team dynamics, player responsibilities, and structural issues within the NBA. They reaffirm their commitment to providing insightful analysis and look forward to future episodes tackling ongoing NBA narratives.

Notable Quotes:

• "It wasn't a brawl. There was some pushing and shoving, but it wasn't on the level of historical NBA brawls." — Raja Bell ([02:25])
• "Firing a coach with nine games left when the team is still in playoff contention is incredibly unusual." — Howard Beck ([24:02])
• "If you continue to ride on athleticism without sharpening other tools, it's harder to sustain success." — Raja Bell ([52:29])

---

For more detailed analysis and ongoing NBA coverage, visit The Ringer NBA Show.

Transcript

[J. Kyle Mann]

You're listening to the Ringer NBA show presented by FanDuel. FanDuel has made it easier than ever to see how your bets are doing without even opening the app, because now you can get the latest updates and follow along in real time directly from your phone's lock screen or Apple Watch. No login required, just head to your My Bets page to turn it on and if you don't already have it, download the FanDuel Sportsbook app today to get in on the action. The Ringer is committed to responsible gambling. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and help lines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com folks.

[Logan Murdoch]

It'S J. Kyle Mann from the Ringer.

[Raja Bell]

And as always, basketball is so freaking, freaking good.

[Howard Beck]

It's so good, in fact, that the.

[Raja Bell]

Ringers NBA Draft show is finally back.

[Logan Murdoch]

Just in time for a ramp up to June.

[Raja Bell]

We've got you covered every week as.

[Logan Murdoch]

We take an in depth look at.

[Raja Bell]

Who'S got Next for the NBA's future. We'll talk the rising and falling stocks of the best and the brightest prospects in the 2025 NBA Draft class.

[Logan Murdoch]

From Cooper Flag to Dylan Harper to BJ Edgecomb and more.

[Raja Bell]

Tap in with me on the Ringer NBA Draft show every Wednesday and make.

[Logan Murdoch]

Sure that you follow, subscribe and hit us with those five star ratings.

[J. Kyle Mann]

This episode is brought to you by Buzzballs. Biggies ready to go. Cocktails that bring the party wherever you are. All their flav tasty. But you have to check out the big blue ball Berry Cherry limeade. Yeah, you heard that right. Big blue balls, big flavor, big fun. Big balls just dropped this season. Grab a pair with Buzz Balls. Please drink responsibly. Available in spirit wine and malt ABV 15% buzz balls LLC.

[Logan Murdoch]

What's poppin row ones? Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell there. Howard Beck in the cut, Cliff on the boards, Victoria on the video. We have a fun slate today, but I think we're going to take a bit of a curveball onto the slate. We're going to talk a little Suns, talk a little Memphis, but beforehand we go talk about some crash outs. Raja, did you see the brawl in Minnesota between the Pistons and the Timberwolves? And what are your thoughts?

[Raja Bell]

Sir, that wasn't. That's a. I mean, what am I. It wasn't a brawl. I mean there was some pushing and shoving going on. Like, yeah, I saw it, but what are my thoughts? I mean, shit happens, right? Like, you're out there competing, people get upset, words are thrown around, gets a little physical. Eventually somebody gets pushed more than they want to be pushed and shit erupts. It was unfortunate that it landed where it landed in the front row. Can't have that. We've already touched that on this pod and many other pods. Like, that brings in a whole level of. Of liability that the league can't. Can't have. But other than. I mean, other than that, like, I. I mean, I know in today's news cycle, like, we just blow everything up. Everything is like, every loss, somebody's getting fired or they're not an all star. Every win, a motherfucker is a champion. Order. The blessed best player on the planet. Like, that wasn't shit. It really wasn't. Like, it wasn't like they got. They got. They got upset, mofo started pushing and shoving. Oh, well.

[Logan Murdoch]

I love it.

[Howard Beck]

I love it. I love it. Mostly because. Because, like, there's so. There's so often, Raja, where, like, this is always about, like, players from previous eras dumping on the modern game. It's usually about, like, threes and everything else. It's more fun, though, actually, when it's like, you call that a brawl. You call that a brawl. You ain't seen a brawl Go to YouTube and go. Or do. What's the NBA cobwebs account on. On the social media accounts, and you can see, like, what brawls actually looked like when they were brawls and when, like, guys.

[Raja Bell]

And I wasn't in any. Let's be clear, I wasn't in any either. Like, by the time we came around, they were still, like, you know, nobody was throwing real punches. Like, if they did, it was very rare. This was like, come on.

[Howard Beck]

By modern standards, this one was alarming in. In terms of how many sheer bodies were in that moving scrum and the fact that it fell to it was. Dude, it was a player's scrum. That was a rugby scrum, man. But that's the thing. Like, it's not. In the old days, punches are thrown and you. And you see it and you see, like, actual, like, you know, fist flying. This was like just a moving pile of bodies that fell into the front row, which is bad, very bad. Don't do that. Don't. Don't get. Don't. Don't get. Fans endangered, like, primary thing here. And we've seen it. Not just mouse at the palace, but, like, there was the Knicks, Nuggets brawl. Way back in the day. My first season on. Not my first season, was it? Yeah.

[Logan Murdoch]

That wasn't even really a brawl either, though. Howard. The Nuggets, Knicks, bro. When Carmelo just like kind of like smacked him and then ran all the other way from the court.

[Howard Beck]

Carmelo. Carmelo backpedaled like a Cornerback for like 50 yards to try to avoid getting punched. But Nate Robinson and J.R. smith rolled into this. Into the first seats at the Garden.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yes, that's fair. That's fair.

[Howard Beck]

So, yeah, that, like, that. That happened and those guys were going at it. But you like anything that ends up encroaching on the fans and the seats is a problem. And there was a sheer number of bodies here, and we have coaches being like, J.B. bickerstaff and Pablo Brigione being ejected. So, like, it was a spectacle, but it's not like a serious, serious brawl by historical NBA standards. And like, the suspensions just came out, you know, and they seem about appropriate. And Isaiah Stewart's history has something to do with him getting more games than everybody else.

[Logan Murdoch]

It wasn't like, remember Kareem Abdul Jabbar punch Kent Benson? Like, he got elbow. Did you guys see this clip where he gets elbowed the chest. He takes a breath and just. Ah, yeah.

[Raja Bell]

Side. He like, side snuck him, right?

[Logan Murdoch]

Or like, I'm thinking about other great brawls. This is. I should. We shouldn't condone this, but I'm gonna just go there anyway. Like, wasn't there like a. A time the Celtics versus the Sixers when like, Larry Bird punched, like, Dr. J and somebody like, held Dr. J. Jay up or something to get punched or. It was something like that, but it was a brawl between the Celtics and the Sixers. We don't have that no more.

[Raja Bell]

There were all kind of brawls, man. Everybody was getting scooped and slammed and like punching like back in those days, it was just. Hey, man, it's really, you know, I mean, nobody wants to hear this, but like, to put that. To put for. It's hard to get both things right. It's hard to get people to, like. You often hear the NBA fan. All these guys don't care. They're out there just kind of going through the motions. Like, you know, you get that argument sometimes from some. From some casuals and stuff like that. But what I would say is, you know, it's. It's hard to ask people to pick up how much they care and the level of intensity with which they play, and then at the same time, ask Them not to get close to that line where emotions are going to boil over, right? So like the, the harder you play, the deeper you get into a season, the more that's on the line, you know, typically the closer you get to the line of like, hey man, like this, I'm good. I'll fight you for this. Right? It means more to me now. Now that wasn't a playoff game, but I guess what I'm saying is like, I don't all the way mind being close to that line now. I agree with Howard. Like, we can't be in the stands. Things like that can't happen. We don't want to be fighting every night. But if you told me I was going to get cats that were at each other's throats a little bit more and because of that I was going to get a couple of these, you know, every few months, I'm okay with that.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, for sure. I think the also.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Logan Murdoch]

I think also like with the NBA and I know, I know like, shouldn't be in the stands of fighting, but I feel like specifically, I think it's because the Pistons game was so just viral and everything that you can think about it like the miles of the palace was so monumental. It just effectively legislated it out. And for good reason. But like the stigma that NBA fights get versus say like hockey or like even, even NFL football and college football, it's. It's pretty jarring, right? Like, it's really hard to your point, Roger, to switch that, to switch that, that flip that switch right where you're in such a competitive environment and you're literally like fighting for position and all these things to not expect the other thing to happen and just turn it off and be like, it's, it's a real, just weird thing to do and to an environment to be in. But I do think that specifically when we talk about NBA basketball or fights in basketball, it seems to have a different connotation than when we talk about any other sport.

[Raja Bell]

That's always been weird, but like there, that's a bigger conversation about like, you know, and stuff. I'm not going to get into that. I just say the psychology of it when you know that the old guard, for the most part when, when I came into the league, those dinosaurs still existed where like, yo, you don't really talk to the dude you about to play against. Like, we're, we're going out there to the jump ball circle and no one said a word to anybody other than like a fist bump or Something like that.

[Logan Murdoch]

Because the Kurt Thomas Charles Oakleys, you know.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, we're about to get this cracking. Like, I don't want to be your friend right now. This is not. This isn't friendly. For the next however many minutes, we're all on the court together. So that kind of, like, transitioned to more of a, you know, a brotherhood or fraternity. And I'm. I'm all for that, but it got. It got to a point. Even when I played where, you know, guys would try to befriend you at the jump ball circle, I was wired the other way. I didn't have the. I didn't have the room, the margin for error to not be, like, razor sharp, right? So, like, I couldn't be your friend and then go do what I thought I had to do to be effective. So I was still kind of wired like that, and guys were already like, hey, man, you know, let's just go through the moat. Let's just get this done tonight. You know what I mean? And I never understood that. Like, I never really got that. But I watched the pendulum swing all the way to, like, you know, everyone's cool with each other for the most part, and. And that's okay. Like, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not saying that I have a problem with that in any way, shape or form, but, like, if you want cats to really get after each other, they've got to get closer to the line of. Of wanting to fight each other than some people are comfortable with. If you really want them to, like, compete, compete.

[Logan Murdoch]

And ultimately, I think that makes the game more entertaining, to be honest with you. Right. Like, not fighting all the time, but, like, a good competitive edge. Every game, I think, is great for the game and the watchability of the game, to be honest with you.

[Howard Beck]

I've never been one of these people who, like, tried to glorify the 90s or even the 80s with all that. Like, oh, that was better when there was fight. No, it's not better when it was fighting. Like, the fact that they've cleaned up the game over time, like, on some perverse level, it's entertaining when we see those old clips and we go, oh, man, look what it was like back in the day. But let's be real, that does not make for a better game. And the violence doesn't need to be part of the game. So we don't want to glorify that. But I do think, and I'm curious how Raja feels about this, because we've talked about this on this pod many times where, you know, like, living, playing on the edge, there's an advantage to that and sometimes in a necessity of that. And I think in the case of the Pistons in particular, as I'm looking at this, like, we kind of know who the Timberwolves are, more or less the Pistons are new. Like, this is. This is their breakthrough season. J.B. bickerstaff is in the running for coach of the Year. Cade Cunningham is in the running for all NBA. Malik Beasley's in the running for six man of the year. Like, these guys are coming on strong and these suspensions are now hitting us at a time where they're right down the stretch. They're still locked in, in a seating race, right? Like the Pistons, as we record this, are 42 and 33, fifth in the east, two losses behind the Pacers, one loss ahead of the Bucks. Those three teams are still jockeying with a couple weeks to go here. And the Pistons now, because of these suspensions, are going to be without Isaiah Stewart. Like, I mean, it's not the most like losing Cade Cunningham, who they've already been without recently because of injury, but. But now they lose Isaiah Stewart for. He's been suspended two games. That's the announcement that came out just as we were about to hop on. Ron Holland suspended one game, Sasser one game. And then on Timberwolf side of it, nas, Reed and DiVincenzo each suspended a game. And the Timberwolves are still in a seatings battle too. Like, right now they're in, you know, a tie for seventh and eighth with the Clippers, and they're only a lost back of the warriors for sixth. So there's, there's real world consequences. But all that's to say, Raja, what did we just learn about, if anything, the Pistons and how, how, like, does this, does this give us any insight into who they might be in the playoffs? Like, we already knew they were kind of a feisty team. The suspensions aren't great, fights aren't great. But is there some, is there some silver lining here about, like, the character of the Pistons in terms of going in as this young upstart in the playoffs and what they might be able to do?

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, no, I think that that's a great question. Yeah, I think we kind of already knew it though, Howard. But if, if anyone was unsure about whether, whether or not they would stand in the paint and like, be 10 toes down like that, they, they should know now, right? Like, and I think, you know, I've always said you give me, you give me something like as a player, right? Like if I'm coaching a team and I have these two equal, you know, parts basketball players in terms of skill level. And one of them is just way aggressive and over the top and is getting into some shit sometimes and the other one is kind of like meek. Give me the over aggressive one. I think I could scale it back. Don't get. I don't want the one that I. It's harder for me to put the fire in you than it is for me to dampen your fire. So I want teams and players, you know, provided we're not too far over a line to, to have that edge about them and certainly a team that's trying to cut their teeth and, and make a statement. And you know, we were on here with, with Ben and we were, you know, we were talking about them being able to potentially win a playoff series. If, if you are a team like the Pistons coming into these playoffs. No one gave us a shot at it. It's us against the world. You fostered that mentality and that kind of like backbone all year. Like that's been, that's been in their DNA cooking since the time they went to training camp. So, you know, the fact that it, that it showed itself, you know, this late in the season is unfortunate for the suspension reasons, but I like them even more than I did and I liked them already.

[Logan Murdoch]

Is that what you and Rashid were talking about on Friday, Raja? Where there's, there, there's just certain players that just have whatever it is for the postseason that you don't really have to teach and don't really have an adjustment process as opposed to, you know, the other teams that could be fish out of water when it comes to the playoffs. Do you think that the Pistons have shown you to this point that they can be ready for an environment like that and maybe the adjustment period just isn't, is going to be slower or faster than maybe another team that's fish out of water?

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, that's, I mean, that's going to be tbd, Logan. I mean, clearly, you know, there's a part of physicality that comes with playoff basketball that they seem to be ready for. Right. Like you could see that, you know, in what they do. Right. Like they're, they're not going to run away from the actual physical fight, but there's so much more that goes into playoff basketball and being ready to play at that time. Like we're talking about concentration levels, we're talking about guys ability, you know, within those concentration levels to stay locked in on a game plan to execute over and over again. You talking about discipline in a way that you can have all that toughness and like I was unable to do in that series against Kobe, not go over the line because now we're in a playoff scenario and I can't cost myself these games. So, like, there's a lot that goes into determining whether or not they're ready. We'll find that out. But I think the first thing you want to know about your team is, is that you're tough. Outside of like, you know, we're good enough to earn our seed, is that we're tough and we're not going to back down from a fight. And I think you know that about them. And then, you know, look, the playoffs, the play. The playoffs are just a different animal. Like, some people are going to sink and some are going to swim. You won't know that until they're in them.

[Logan Murdoch]

Okay, so we talked about the Piston side of this. What about the Timberwolf side of this fight? Like, what do you think is the out. What. What comes to. To mind when you see their point coming out of this, this whatever, this brouhaha. Does it bring them together or does it. Does it show cracks in what they even have going this season, which has been disappointing thus far?

[Raja Bell]

Personally, I don't. I don't think it. I mean, their cracks are their cracks, but I.

[Logan Murdoch]

Cause they seem to be a team afterwards, too. Cause they won the game.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah. And I think. But. But I think, you know, whenever you have something like that, that kind of someone has to stand up for somebody in a way that's going to cost them something real, and they take the opportunity to do that. That's galvanizing. Like, dudes. Dudes understand the code. Like, we. We might be in a funky place as a team, we might not all be loving on each other the same way that we were a month ago, but if somebody from one of these other team tries, one of my people out here on the court in a way that is disrespectful, and I think he's in harm's way, then. Then that's my brother, and I got to stand up for that. And sometimes that just reminds teams like, hey, we're family, bro. Like, we're all in this together. Whether we hit a rough patch or not. When push comes to shove, I ride with you. And so I don't know what comes of it for. For Minnesota, but I don't think it's a Fracturing moment for them. If anything, I think it would go the other way.

[Howard Beck]

I also think that Minnesota, despite whatever cracks we have seen this season or just the adjustment to Julius Randall instead of Towns and everything else, like, it has been a little bit of a funky season. But like, guys, they've actually, they've come around like they're, they're 11 and 4 over their last 15 with a net rating of plus 11.

[Logan Murdoch]

And their morale seems to be pretty good, too, right? Like, it doesn't seem like they're breaking apart at the seams like the next two.

[Howard Beck]

I mean, I'd rather see them, rather see them fighting the Pistons than each other. But yeah, last 15 games and, you know, small sample size, all that stuff. But like, last 15 games, 11 and four. Fourth best net rating. Fourth best net rating in the NBA behind Oklahoma, Boston and the Clippers. So two of those teams are. Are, you know, expected to be in the finals. And the Clippers have also been very good recently. So Minnesota's interesting right now. Like, it's. To be where they are in the standings. Looks like a huge disappointment in a comedown from last season. But I don't know, man. Like, they're. They're looking pretty good at the moment. And it's, it's like the west is just funky, right? Like between that whole grouping. Right. Like, all right, we're probably writing off Memphis. We'll talk about them later. No one's sure what to make of Houston. They're going to be the second seat and we're all still going to be sitting here going, like, are we sure? Are we sure? They're good, but like Denver Lakers, Warriors, Wolves, Clippers, I don't, I don't know how to parse that group. I think anything goes.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah. And the Timberwolves have quietly been one of the hottest teams in the league. Post All Star break, too, right. Like, they have the only reason why, you know, they probably haven't gone up in the standings because, you know, the warriors have been holding firm. Post Jimmy Butler, right. Like, they have been playing well and been neck and neck to get out of the, the playing race. And, you know, we'll see what happens tonight with the warriors. And you know, they have a tough schedule going forward, but like Timberwolves, they're only at a half game out of the play in or out of the. Out of that tournament. So I mean, they should be good and whoever plays against them, they should get out of that and we'll see what happens with the Wolves.

[Raja Bell]

Hey, let me tell you about one of my favorite bets that FanDuel has right now. They're called Player Performance Doubles. If you don't know about them, you gotta check them out. There are these two leg parlays already made for you. Fanduel takes an NBA player prop then combines it with a bet on that player's team to win. They have a bunch of them for you every game. You just have to pick the one you like. For me tonight, Sixers at Knicks. I'm going to take Karl Anthony Towns 25 plus points and the Knicks for the W. And whether you want to ride with my pick or make your own, FanDuel is giving all customers a profit boost exclusively for these bets on Tuesday. So just head to FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to get your profit boost. Make every Moment more with FanDuel. America's number one sportsbook must be 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wager amount. See [e-mail] Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com this episode.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Is brought to you by Buzzballs. Biggies ready to go. Cocktails that bring the party wherever you are. All their flavors are tasty, but you have to check out the big Blue Ball Berry Cherry Limeade. Yeah, you heard that right. Big blue balls, big flavor, big fun. Big balls just dropped this season. Grab a pair with Buzz Balls. Please drink responsibly. Available in spirit wine and Malt ABV 15% Buzzballs LLC.

[Logan Murdoch]

Today's episode is brought to you by Amazon Business. Every business starts with an idea. How can you go from daydreamer to industry leader? Amazon Business accelerates your journey with smart business buying. Get everything you need to grow in one familiar place. From office supplies to IT essentials to maintenance tools, Amazon Business takes the buying experience you know and love from Amazon plus tools that help you save costs and make insight based decisions ready to bring your business to life. Learn [e-mail] you want control of your.

[Raja Bell]

Financial future and Schwab knows that. That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, we give you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice.

[Cliff]

When you need it most.

[Raja Bell]

You can also invest on your own and trade on thinkorswim, our powerful award winning trading platforms.

[Cliff]

Plus you'll get low cost costs, transparent.

[Raja Bell]

Pricing and 24.7live help because at Schwab we Understand it's your financial journey and we believe you should have choices in how you invest. Visit schwab.com to learn more.

[Logan Murdoch]

Speaking of crash outs, let's talk about the Memphis Grizzlies. Me and Raja and Sheed were like talking about it in real time and it was one of those things in a podcast where you're like, oh, this, this news went down. What the hell is going on here? Here? Oh my God. What the hell? We just information just coming in at the moment, but now we have a little bit more context, right? Taylor Jenkins has been fired. It was a big athletic story that came out. It was really good. You guys go check that out. I think it was also ESPN story came out today about saying mostly about the same things. But the crux of the situation is this. Zach Kleiman and the Memphis Grizzlies front office decided to gut Taylor Jenkins's staff and replace it in the off season. And his new assistants implemented a new offense that did not play to the strengths of John Morant, their best player and franchise star. And then Ja Morant gets upset and they fire Taylor Jenkins. Then in a twist of fate, put in a coach that actually championed the offense that John didn't like. So I'll start with Beck here. Where the hell are we with the Memphis Grizzlies and where do we go from here? Where did they go from here with nine games left in the season?

[Howard Beck]

I did make some calls about this in the last couple of days just to try to get a better sense of it because it was weird, right? Like you guys were reacting in real time on Friday going, wait a minute, there's nine games left of the season. Who fires their coach with a playoff bound team still top five or six, whatever they were at the time, with nine games left in the season, like, that just doesn't happen. Like, people were scrambling. The stat people were scrambling. The, the Elias Sports Bureau was scrambling. Oh, has this ever happened in the history of the league? And like it is incredibly unusual. And the warning signs were there right now. There's a piece of this where it's just injuries. Jaws missed a ton of games. They lost Brandon Clark again. He's really important for them. There's a, there's, there's an aspect of this where if they just were healthy, maybe we don't get to this point. But what I've learned over the last couple days is like, you know, and I haven't read all the, the coverage at espn. I saw the athletic story a few days ago. There were Cracks behind the scenes. Like, there just were cracks. There was. There were fissures developing between members of the coaching staff itself, I think, and also between the coaching staff and the players. And all of that was leeching into what was happening out on the court. And we can talk about the offense and we should, but it was, you know, defensively, which had been their backbone for a while, where they really had just, you know, eroded so badly that it became untenable. So what I will say about the timing is this. I was as shocked as everybody else. I thought it was unusual and I actually thought in real time. My first impulse was, this is a mistake. Like, you've got some instability going on here. How does removing your seasoned head coach, who has these guys have all come up under and who has been one of the better head coaches in the league, who everybody agrees is going to get snapped up as soon as somebody has an opening this summer? Like Taylor Jenkins is not going to be out of work for very long. And I think he's still highly regarded in Memphis too, for that matter. But it. As much as I was shocked in the moment and as much as I thought this is more instability by removing the head coach, I think where I've landed is this and what I've. Based on what I've learned, there's a realization that at a certain point this season has kind of gotten away from you. I don't think anybody in Memphis expects that, replacing Taylor Jenkins with Thomas. I think it's Isolo. I don't think anybody who, you know, is a rookie coach in the NBA. You know, no one's expecting, like there's going to be some magical turnaround. This is not going to put them in the conference finals. They may not even be winning a playoff series. But where I admire what the Grizzlies did is this. We see so often in this league where teams just don't have the conviction to do what needs to be done or they know something's going the wrong direction, or they just. They just. They were too worried about optics or the politics of it or whatever. They concluded that things were not going to turn around under Taylor Jenkins. So why are we waiting to meander through the rest of a regular season, get our butts kicked in the play in or the playoffs, and then fire him? We already know we want to make the change. Let's just do it now. So kudos to them for the having the conviction to decide. We don't care how it looks that it's nine games left. We already know where this is going and we already know what our conclusion is. What are we doing? Waiting for the off season.

[Logan Murdoch]

Ross, do you want to take this.

[Raja Bell]

Or being professionals is what you're doing okay?

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Raja Bell]

Being a professionally run organization, bro.

[Howard Beck]

Like, you're saying that firing him is unprofessional.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yes. There's nine games left.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, right. With nine games left in a season, Howard. And you're admitting that. Like, if you're the franchise saying this cat's not getting us better, we don't expect Issa, whatever his name is, to help us. Like, there's not going to be a reset button that he hits and we're going to have this. Like, we're just saying we know we need to make the move, so we'll do it. Nine games before.

[Logan Murdoch]

By the way. By the way, Razza. No, no, no. By the way, they gutted the. His staff in the summer, which meant they didn't fuck with him anyway. Right?

[Raja Bell]

Like already. So that. So that's the time. That's what I was going to say. Thank you, Logan. That would have been the time to do that. That. That would have been the professional move. But my bad, Howard. This is the only thing I'll say, if I were in that front office, I would have never advocated for because I don't believe it puts. I don't believe that you can put a team in the best position to be their all in nine games in a playoff run. And ultimately I'm trying to help them be the best version of themselves. And so I would not have advocated for it.

[Howard Beck]

And my understanding, I think that's fair. And like I said, my initial reaction was, you're, you know, this is not helping you. Firing your head coach with nine games to go is not going to put you in a better position to advance in the playoffs. I don't think anybody there believes that either. I think this is more. I think the way we should interpret this is this is a concession. They've conceded that things aren't going the right way regardless with Taylor Jenkins. Without Taylor Jenkins, we think we're going to land in the same place within the next three, four weeks. And if that's the case, let's at least see what things look like. Because behind the scenes, again, this is my understanding of things. Having had a few conversations, my understanding is like, things are worse than what we are seeing. Right.

[Raja Bell]

So. And you're telling me it was untenable? If it was untenable, that's. I mean, that's where we're at like.

[Howard Beck]

Like players are pulling away. Players are not following the system anymore defensively, offensively, and I think especially defensively. So if you, Raja, if you're in the front office and you, you see and you, you can tell this much better from that vantage point than we can from the outside. If you saw that your players weren't responding to your coach anymore, as decorated as that coach might be, or as respected as he might be, as much success as he might have had with your team, if you, if you've already concluded it's done there, he's cooked, they're not listening. Do you wait the few. Like I could still make the case for waiting a few weeks because that's the normal course of events. What I'm saying is like, I do admire the fact that they decided we already know the conclusion, so why, why wait? And we're going to lose the first round at best anyway.

[Raja Bell]

If you want to give them real one of the week for that, like, okay, like, that's a real move. Like I'm, I feel you like you, but, but that's not the way typically business is done in the NBA. And I actually do have some experience with this. Like I, my first gig ever back in the NBA after doing a little bit of like, you know, work on like TV and stuff like that was, was consulting with the team. I was brought in late in the season to, you know, come be around the team, watch practices, watch a game, get a feel for it. And then the report and what I was asked was, does this coach still have the ear of the team? Is this team still bought into the messaging and it was immediate? Absolutely not. They're out. And you could feel that, you could see that, you could sense that in the building. So if that's what you're telling me, then I do understand you saying, hey, this is, this is, this road has come to an end. Right? And that's essentially what I told this team. This road has come to an end. And it was weirdly in and about the same exact time and part of the season. It was probably 10, maybe 15 games left in the season and that team didn't move. They just said, okay, we got it. We know we're going to be in the market this summer. If, if you're telling me in a world, Howard, I'm trying to be fair that the gentleman who's getting the job right now is going to be one of the front runners to retain the job and you want to give him a, a nine game plus playoff interview process to see what he can really do. But I don't believe. I don't know that. I believe that if you were to tell me that, I'd say, like, okay, it's still kind of weird. Like, I think Taylor Jenkins deserves the, you know, respect, if you will, to, like, finish the season out and see what he can do in the playoffs. Like, I think I would argue that, but I could see the logic on the other side of it. But if you're just going to let this dude play it out and then you're going to go out and get into the pool looking for someone with head coaching experience and bring them in there, I don't understand it.

[Logan Murdoch]

I got a couple of things on this really quickly. It. One of these things is, I think we're speaking and we're not acknowledging the fact that the Memphis Grizzlies front office created this problem that they felt like they needed to solve at the end of the season or at this stretch of the season. They're the ones that put this coach in place to be an assistant, basically cutting the legs of the head coach right in front of him, like, while he stood. Right. And it. When I heard about this and we got more context, I kept thinking about the Sacramento Kings and what they did in the off season. Now, the Memphis Grizzlies front office is, well, way more respected and rightfully so, but they essentially did the same thing where you. You place the coach as a figurehead, but you do everything to undermine his coaching ability. And that there's something to be said for that around the league, right? Because whatever is going on in the building, perception in this league and perception in general, is everything. And the perception is right now, for better or worse, is the Grizzlies don't know what the hell they're doing right now. Because why would you put a coach and fire a coach with nine games left and then also put the new interim coach in a weird position to coach out these last nine games. Morale is probably shit right now. And then try to give him an audition in the playoffs where it's a completely different game and they're going up. They could go play up against either the Lakers, they could go play against the Nuggets, teams that have already have some level of championship experience with LeBron and Jokic and also are pretty much hitting. I'm talking about the Lakers are like, hitting their stride. That's such an unfair predicament to put them in, right? And then on the other point of this is, you put in an interim coach that it would Be one thing if there was an interim coach that the team like loves. Like, I'm thinking about Antonio Pierce of my Raiders for that, you know, Stretch, when he got first got the job and the players loved him and they rallied around him. I don't see that happening in Memphis. So when I, I get what you're saying, Howard, but when I think it through, I mean this doesn't one, the perception is bad, which is a league wide perception that they are not doing what they're supposed to be doing and being professional about a situation, basically undermining a coach and not making him want to putting him in a position where he can't trust the people around him. And it's a bad position when a head coach can't trust his assistant coaches. Again, we just saw that in Sacramento. So like I feel what you're saying. But on the other side, like perception is everything and the perception is Memphis don't know what the hell they're doing right now. We haven't gotten to the job part.

[Howard Beck]

I think from the, I think you're right that the perception on the outside is as you see all this happen and you just think, good lord, what a mess. You know, you flushed his entire assistant coaching staff. Again, incredibly rare in the NBA that a coach is forced to turn over his entire staff at the direction of the front office. And that happened last year. And that was, that was a shot across the bow. That was probably an indication that maybe that was the time to fire Taylor Jenkins. If you don't trust him enough to allow him to continue with the coaching staff that he constructed and you're bringing in all these other guys, like that's a, that's a bad sign anyway. So I, I, I give you that. And I think the perception of them has probably been a little bit skeptical because of that all the way through what has just happened. But there's like, there's some nuance here. And I would just say like again, if you've already concluded. So they probably concluded almost a year ago, right. So maybe they should have fired him then. Okay, they didn't. They kept Taylor Jenkins. They replaced all the assistants. The new assistants came in, they install a new offense that de emphasizes jaw, that de emphasizes pick and roll. That's much more, you know, kind of ball and player movement. Like aesthetically maybe more pleasing, not more effective because you're just deemphasized the best assets of your best player. One of the assistant coaches that they fired with Jenkins, Laroche was the one who, as I understand it was the kind of the architect of that new offense. Isolo, the guy that they've now installed, you know, brought him in as a coach. He's from Finland. He was, he was renowned overseas as a pick and roll coach. And not just just basic pick and roll, but as a really, really innovative pick and roll offense that he, he installs. So not, not just, just dismissing anything you just said, Logan, but I will say in terms of like, are they in a better place now? It's a rookie head coach who just came to the NBA. He's not in a great position to succeed right now. However, we've already seen in his first couple of games and they've lost them both. But these are tough opponents too. They're going back to more pick and roll. They're going back to where JA has more control of the offense again. And maybe there's some balance in between. Right. Like, I'm not a big advocate of, like, just give it to the one guy that I hate. Heliocentric offense. I'm not a big fan of like 99% pick and roll either. I like ball player movement. I like what the warriors do. But you've got John. He's your best player and you should cater to his best talents. And him standing in the corner waiting for kickouts is not the best use of him at all. So they are at least with this change. And you could argue maybe you could have done this without firing the head coach. Maybe you could have just said, why not, you know, have Isola's offense instead of Laroche's offense or whatever. But this is where they are and I think it's going to at least put guys in a better position and maybe they're at least engaged again, because again, from what I understand, there were some fractures there and players, you know, were kind of going their own way.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, that's interesting. Look, I didn't know the guy's background in terms of pick and roll, you know, and his ability to coach it, teach it, so on and so forth. It would be interesting to me, like, I really would. The question of whether or not when the, when. When the job becomes available, if he's actually in consideration for it. I mean, you're saying he's a. Yeah, I mean, I. So I want to be fair to them. And I hear everything that you're saying, Howard. I would just go to what. To what Logan said, which is the dysfunction. Like, while I would just take it a step further. Like if you're, if you're going to deconstruct the old coach and staff, right? And you're going to implement a new offense and bring in a, you know, new staff that helps you get to those objectives. And. And Ja isn't a part of those conversations then either Ja isn't your franchise player moving forward in your estimation, or you fucked up like that. That's not something that you take a player of Jaws, you know, ability. Not. I'm not comparing him necessarily to Luka or Kobe or. But I mean, he is your Luka or Kobe or what have you. You don't bring in a new system and say, hey guys, let's sit behind these closed doors as dudes who have never really done this and we're going to decide what Ja's going to look best doing. That's not how that shit works. But you're supposed to go to John Morant and say, hey, Jon, listen, bro, we're going to bring in a new staff like you to sit down and hear what he's got to say offensively or not. I'm pretty sure John Morant would be either like, yeah, I either like that or I don't like that. So I would, I would say it's dysfunctional in that you even got to the point where you brought someone in and install installed him and he then installed an offense that John Moran was like, what is this bullshit? Right? Like that in and of itself is slightly dysfunctional. And I've said this before to owners in the NBA, to executives in the NBA, you got to be really careful. And I haven't said it to coaches, but any coach who might listen to this man, fight for your staff, dude. Staffs are teams within teams. They're teams within teams. And so like on any team, you could have a head coach and by definition and by job description, he's the alpha. And you might have an assistant who's got an alpha personality and can't not have the alpha personality, right? And so the dynamics there, like, and the chemistry is a very. It's a very kind of precarious thing. It's like a chemistry experiment on any team. And a coaching staff is a team within a team. So like, you got to make sure you have the right people with the person that you believe is the. Is the right person to run the show. That was Taylor Jenkins. Let him. Let him have the staff. You can't be gifting people staffs. I see it. You see it on different levels where people are like, hey man, we like this head coach. You know, they did it to Mike D'Antoni to some degree, friend of the show, Steve Curran. Them like, man, Mike D'Antoni had what he liked. They were telling Mike he had to get rid of Dan and he had to do this and he had to do that. Mike was like, I'm not doing that. I'm out. Because Mike knew his team. Now, you could say Mike didn't win a championship and all of that's fair. But Mike was like, hey, man, I don't want you coming in here, you know, messing with my day to day. Those coaches spend so many hours together, bro. They're doing so much work together. They're. They're together in inordinate amount of hours. You want people that you like to be around and people that you don't have to fight for control with and people that understand your vision and are collaborative. And so I like, you just gotta be really careful when you do that. And I think all of that speaks to some dysfunction. I'm going to be. I got to side with Logan a little bit. I understand what you're saying, Howard.

[Logan Murdoch]

I think this is a good time. Well, one, I want to acknowledge what Roger said in terms of like coaches like that is. And I know Howard would agree with this man. Like coaching staffs, it's like a circle of trust, man. If you can't trust your coaching staff, there's. It's, it's really bad for the entire team. And there have been a lot of coaches that have been fired. And I'm not saying this necessarily for Memphis, but there's been a lot of coaches that have been fired because of some backstabbing BS because they didn't trust a staff. Like, that's, that is a very common thing in this league and I'm sure in sports in general. And that's something that you always have to look out for and I don't know the situation and why. And Taylor Jenkins role in the staff being cut, but you know, it. It would have behooved them to have a bit more symmetry and trust there because I don't think we would be in this position right now either way if they would have just made a decision. But I do want to talk about the jaw element of this and I think Howard Beck is a great person to talk to about the jobs.

[Howard Beck]

I heard you guys name check me on Friday took me a little bit out of context, but that's okay.

[Logan Murdoch]

Now we're about to put you right back in the context. But I think one of the things, and to Raj's point about John Morant, supposedly supposed to be the franchise star at least is the face of the franchise to us. But it doesn't seem like over the last couple of years, if you read the tea leaves that he is thought of in the same vein around the Memphis organization. Right. And I mean there are reasons for that. And I'm looking at his basketball reference right now. Hasn't played more than 67 games in a season that was his rookie year, had even his MVP season. It's crazy. Like I thought he played more games. I thought there was a season where his MVP when he got MVP votes and probably his best season and the 21, 22 season when they went to the second round I believe played 57 games. Right. He's not available. There's the off court stuff that we've been seeing. What if you read the tea leaves Howard was is this Memphis sane talking about what happened with Taylor Jenkins and changing the offense which is kind of unprecedented, just changing the offense away from the style that your star player likes and expecting him to just go with it. Is there was there president and what, what are the tea leaves saying about how this came about for JA and is our perception that he is a franchise star actually reality or do Memphis think different?

[Howard Beck]

I mean look in Jaws defense his availability the last couple years has been more about injury than anything else. There was the suspension, there were the incidents that led to that suspension as far as we know. And it wasn't just the suspension. Right. There was all kinds of stories, you know, stuff that happened, what happened with him and his buddies and, and, and the, the whatever jaw and that confrontation with the kid he played pickup with or whatever. Like there was a lot of, there were a lot of alarming things concerning things I think in Jaws early career it's been pretty quiet for the last I, I'd say I think two years without looking up anything. I think like this is in his defense, like there's been a good stretch here where there's not anything and he's good.

[Logan Murdoch]

I think he's put better people around him. Right. Not even just like yeah be like friends and stuff but like you know, security and like just an overall team around him that is there are limits to what.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah. But there's a limit to what the franchise or the league can do on that. Right Logan? Like you know we can all sit here and say like oh you know, they got to clean this up but like you know these guys are, they're grown men, they're going to do what they want to do. So I I think like his image took a hit, his standing took a hit. The lack of availability and the injuries, like all of that has, has played a role in this, but like, his playing style and his build plays a role in this too. Right? Like, you know, Raja, you played with Iverson, like not the same, but like slight, slightly built guys who play a super aggressive style who are always crashing into guys in the paint and like, it's part of what makes them so much fun to watch. Like, Iverson was a blast to watch because of his fearlessness and so same with Ja, but man, that dude takes a beating. He's on the court on his butt a lot. And so, yeah, you're gonna lose games to that. And because he's not a good three point shooter, you know that that kind of limits how many ways you can attack. And so I would worry about Jaws, longevity and his health long term. And I think that his availability, like all these things are, are sewn together, but he's still, he's your best player. He's a franchise player. Like to Logan's question, like, is he the superstar that, that is ultimately going to be able to carry them on deep playoff runs or put them in title contention? I have my doubts. I think it's fair to have doubts at this stage, you know, what, six years into his career. But I do think the Grizzlies are committed, fully committed to that core of John morant, Jaren Jackson Jr. Desmond Bain, right, Like that. For better or worse, that's their big three. You could say you believe in that big three or don't believe in it, but that's their core. They've done a really good job the last few years of like finding like, you know, the Jalen Wells and the Gigi Jacksons and like these, these, you know, kind of core rotation players who they find late in the draft or undrafted or G league, whatever, like they've done really well and in a small market you have to hit on those. So I think overall there's like a decent picture to be painted there. But I just. The question still comes down to like, do you believe in John Morant as a top five, top 10 top type player in the NBA, which you need to win titles? Do you believe in that core of, of jaw, Jaren Jackson Jr. And, and Bane? The west is tough, per usual. So I, so I don't know. I do think to the last piece of this, I think them addressing this now is a vote of confidence in keeping John Moranton and trying to make sure that you don't lose him. Right? And I think to the extent that the offense, for whatever reason, I think there were some wires crossed somewhere along the way here about what they wanted to do. But I think the offense, to the extent that it moved away from John, it's now moving back toward him for as long as, as this coach is in charge and probably under the next coach. Like, those are all probably good signs for keeping Jaw happy, productive, and in Memphis.

[Logan Murdoch]

When I think about Ja, though, like, he's a very exciting player, ra, But I haven't seen the transformation of his game, right. Like, he's still so reliant on his athleticism and his will to play really, really hard. But the three point shot is really alarming, right? Like, I think about a guy like Derrick Rose. Now, Derrick Rose had a lot more injuries, but he did eventually in his MVP season develop a jump shot. Like, that's something that he did. And it's really concerning that. Ja's 25 years old right now and has played the league in a while and it's been a glaring thing. His, his. This has been his jump shot. And you see videos too, obviously. I saw a video the other day on YouTube just about like how quirky his shot is and just like how it's never the same every time he shoots it, right? Like he, it's not something that he has worked on and that is alarming. What does John need to do going forward to help the Grizzlies take the next step? Because I think a lot does right on his shoulders. Like, I think he needs, he needs, he needs to stay healthy and he needs to evolve his game in order to be that franchise star for years to come.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah. Well, in fairness to Jaw, because you're not wrong at all in terms of the shooting, I'll get to that. But I think the trajectory of that was altered obviously by injury and by suspension.

[Logan Murdoch]

Right.

[Raja Bell]

So like he could have, even without the development of a jump shot through sheer athleticism explosion, just. And everything that he brings to the table continued to take steps in, in leveling that team up in a way that we just won't know because he didn't get an opportunity to over those, those, those years. Right. And then, you know, as far as the shooting goes, you know, interestingly, because he has been injured a bit. Like, that's typically when guys start to realize that they got to change something, right? Like when, when the superpower starts to go, that's when you, that's when you see guys start to level up the jump shooting like, even LeBron, I think you could argue, hadn't put that level of work in to become as good a shooter as he is now. Earlier in the career, he just didn't have to. Right. Like, it was like he probably didn't.

[Logan Murdoch]

Get his jumper until like 09, 2010. Ish. Right. He was like eight years in the league before he, like, got a job.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, like, but because he, but he. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't that he was. I mean, he couldn't shoot. But, like, you. You have these superpowers in there and no one can guard you when you bring them out, that it doesn't force your hand into developing other parts of your game that people that don't have them, you know, kind of organically have to have just to stay around the league. And so I think Jaws at a point now, Logan, where, you know, he's always going to be a player that has to have the ball. He. That's the way he plays. Right. Like, so, like thinking that you're going to have him in any real capacity with someone else that would be the number one and just have him hanging around and becoming more of a spot shooter and sometimes catch and go guy. Like, I don't ever really see that as, as what John Morant is going to do as a player, but he can continue to take strides as an offensive player. And some of that speaks to maturity. Right? Some of that speaks to, you know, level of professionalism and understanding that even if you still have these gifts, the injuries haven't robbed you of them right now, eventually Father time's going to catch up and you're going to need a counterpunch to, To. To all of the great stuff that is your, you know, knockout weapon. And so, like, you know, I don't. I don't know. I don't know Ja at all. I don't know anyone in this camp. I'm just a fan. I just watch him play. And if you were to, you know, take some of the things that he does organically and pair them with. With, you know, some. Some better. Some better skill work from the perimeter in terms of shooting the ball and stuff, you just become exponentially harder to guard, bro. It just becomes so difficult for dudes who are tasked with staying in front of you to guard you. Right? And so he, he needs to continue to do that. And quite frankly, you know, that's, That's. That's just the ascension of any star in the league who wants to win championships. You come in looking like one player, they're they're always, they, they all have superpowers. They just look different. Right. Whatever that is. You continue to, to ride with that, but then you sharpen up all the other tools in your, in your tool belt to the point where we can win a championship with you. And, and that's, you know, that ultimately is going to be, that's ultimately going to be the deciding factor on whether or not Memphis, with the core that Howard talked about, and I like that core, I agree with him on some of the pieces they've been able to find and the development and all of those things. But like, you know, jaw is the centerpiece of that and, and thinking that you're going to, you're either going to have to change that offense to play the way he wants to play or, or you have to move him. He does not, he does not work in any other capacity at the, at the level that, that you would need to pay him at. You know what I mean?

[Logan Murdoch]

So. Which leads me back to Howard Beck, who, you know, said what he said in San Francisco. Is there anything you want to amend from that? Like, as we talk about, as we're a month or two months later from there, like, how does, how does what you said in San Francisco evolve now to where we are now? How does it play a part into it? How does it change things? The floor is yours, Howard.

[Howard Beck]

No, it's fascinating. I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this because it's really not that important. But what I said during our live show in San Francisco, which was again an absolute fucking blast, thank you all for coming out. I hope we do it again.

[Logan Murdoch]

I think we will.

[Howard Beck]

I just threw out there that in the course of talking to people around trade deadline week and asking people, especially in the wake of Luca, like, what else to keep an eye on and what else is rumbling out there. And someone just kind of offhandedly, surprisingly to me said, keep an eye on Ja. And the rationale, I don't think I elaborated that day, but I think I told you guys maybe on a follow up podcast, because I went back to my notes and everything else about why this executive from another team had said this. And what they pointed to was exactly what we talked about at the beginning of this segment, which is the offense changed. Jaw got de emphasized, his numbers are down, his usage is down, his field goal attempts are down, his. His points are down, everything's down. It doesn't look like a happy situation for him with this offense. That was why this person said to keep an eye on that situation in the first place. Flash forward now a couple of months, and where are we? Well, they fired Taylor Jenkins and the assistant coach who had installed that offense, this guy laroche, and they have installed, as an, on an interim basis, a head coach who already you've seen in the first couple of games is moving the offense back toward ja. I. I don't think this necessarily means that they were worried about losing jaw or a trade demand or anything else directly. It. It probably speaks to the more fundamental thing, which is that if you've got a player who's got certain skill set and he's your. Your best player, your franchise star, and you're not catering to those things, then maybe you've made an error which they have now looked to rectify. So to the extent that this connects back to what I threw out there, regrettably, because of the way it went viral two months ago, I would just.

[Logan Murdoch]

Say I'm not mad at it Raw. Are you? I'm not really mad at it.

[Howard Beck]

Well, you guys weren't the ones taking shit from a bunch of freaks on social.

[Logan Murdoch]

We don't be on social like that. We. We'd be living our lives. We'd be outside.

[Howard Beck]

I know it's my bad. It's my fault. I bring it on myself. But yeah, like, they. There was a reason to keep. There was a reason for this other executive to say what they said at the time, keep an eye on things. It was because of the way the offense had. Had evolved and because of the way it had marginalized JA and his best skills. And now that has been rectified. So I still think, you know, everything always bears watching because, you know, these things are fragile in the NBA. But I think to the extent that the Grizzlies have, you know, made it, you know, drawn a conclusion earlier than the rest of us would have expected it. But Drew, the conclusion, we're off on the wrong. We're. We're heading the wrong direction offensively and defensively. We need to fix it. We're firing Taylor Jenkins now. See where this goes, if anything. I'm not saying that JA was necessarily going to be asking out the summer anyway, but I think if anything, if you were going to put this on the jaw scale, how alarmed should people be about the possibility that he might be unhappy and want out? They're in a better place now than they were a few weeks ago because now the offense is moving back toward him and presumably the play will follow, too. Like, I don't think we should put too Much stock in their first two games, the first two losses under the new coach, because, you know, they're playing really good teams, so there's not a lot of time. Seven games left for them to try to. To find a. A different rhythm, but we'll see.

[Raja Bell]

Anyway, no time. Seven games.

[Howard Beck]

Roger hates this. Hates the timing of this.

[Raja Bell]

I really hate it. I really do. Have. I tried so hard, dude. I. Like, I tried so hard.

[Logan Murdoch]

Whoever he was on the phone with Roger, he was posting bail for him so bad, bro. Like, jeez, he was twisting.

[Howard Beck]

Now, listen, guys, I. I have. This is 28 seasons, as you know, that I've covered this league. And the thing that frustrates me most as an objective observer, who does not give a shit who wins, who loses, who succeeds, who fails. What does frustrate me is seeing teams that are just fucking flailing all over the place, have no idea what they're about, no particular values or convictions. The owner is letting people, you know, flail in the breeze. And look, not for nothing, credit to the Grizzlies for this much. They, from all reports, fired Taylor Jenkins in person. There's one up on the Sacramento Kings who did not. And then their GM didn't talk for a long time, but Zach Kleiman got out there and talked to the local media for a couple of minutes, whereas the Kings, from what I gather, kept anybody from speaking to it for, like, two months until Monty McNair finally addressed the media after they made the Deer and Fox Trade. Like, there's. There are right and wrong ways to do this, and the Kings did it wrong. The Grizzlies.

[Logan Murdoch]

The Kings did it wrong.

[Howard Beck]

That's fine. But I also, again, to the conviction point.

[Raja Bell]

I can see that, though. Do.

[Howard Beck]

Do, like, act when. On. On your beliefs and don't worry about the rest of it. And I think too many teams are.

[Logan Murdoch]

Are just afraid we did it. You. That. I mean, you can get with that, right?

[Raja Bell]

I mean. Yeah. I mean, y'all ain't had that same energy when Nico traded.

[Howard Beck]

Because it was a catastrophic mistake.

[Raja Bell]

No, I'm just saying. I'm saying I ain't get no. I could. I could agree, but I ain't getting no. Like, hey, yo, act on. Act. Act on those convictions, bro. Hey, there. One thing I can't stand is convictions.

[Logan Murdoch]

Talking to Howard right now. Conviction talking to Howard right now, because this is a rare episode where me and Raja have been locked in the whole episode. Just like, yo, I agree with you this. You're. You're talking to Howard right now. Roger, you're not talking to me, okay? I've been locked in with you this whole pod. We both looked at each other.

[Raja Bell]

That's all I'm g say, Howard. That's all I'm g say, bro.

[Howard Beck]

I'm basing this on what I've gathered, but that's fair. But. But also, I'm not giving you credit for great conviction if your conviction was colossally stupid.

[Logan Murdoch]

All time. All time stupid. All time stupid. All right. Okay. Let's get a handle on this. We will not be talking about the Phoenix Suns today. Just running out of time right now. I'm sorry, guys, but.

[Howard Beck]

But they're too depressing anyway.

[Logan Murdoch]

But we already talked about the Memphis Grizzlies being depressing. But read my story on the Phoenix Suns called the Dying Embers of the Phoenix Suns Historic Flame out only on the ringer dot com.

[Raja Bell]

Jesus.

[Howard Beck]

Speaking of convictions that went wrong.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, right.

[Raja Bell]

I filibustered long enough here to not have. To not have to say bad about the Suns. I did my job. I did my job, bro.

[Logan Murdoch]

Before we get to Mailbag Ross.

[Howard Beck]

And yet you somehow shoehorned your defense of Nico again. Good job.

[Raja Bell]

No, I wasn't defending Nico at all. I'm not defending. I'm not defending.

[Logan Murdoch]

No, what he did with Nico is he sees Nico just down bad. He's like. He does say, like, you was wrong, but he just gave him a tap on the shoulder like, get. Get it better next time, buddy.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, that's my guy, man. Like, I can't defend that.

[Logan Murdoch]

The trick is, there will not be a next time. It's tough. Cliff, what's going on, buddy? We talked about Crash Out. You know, Philly's. Philly's the. The land of the Crash outs.

[Cliff]

No, it's. No, it's not. I thought the bay was.

[Logan Murdoch]

Huh?

[Cliff]

How you make that face?

[Logan Murdoch]

Hey, I played. I played pre pod. You guys don't know anything about this. I sent Cliff a song by Drew down, and he was just very, very, very flabbergasted by what he heard.

[Cliff]

He was just like, I love the Bay Area sound, man. What's going on, Howard? What's up? What's up, Raj? What's going on, man? You fresh off vacation?

[Howard Beck]

What's up?

[Cliff]

How you feeling? How y'all feeling?

[Howard Beck]

I just got over a week of COVID so other than that, that's still a thing, bro. Thing. Dude, I finally tested negative this morning.

[Logan Murdoch]

Two people are mad in this pod. Rod is mad because he's not on vacation no more. He just started. He Was like I'm here Monday so what the hell I'm here. And then Howard mad because he's, you know, just mad because he's Howard back.

[Cliff]

All right, let's get this first one in. This is draft fix from Charlie. What to do Real ones. Welcome back Logan. Congrats to you and Miss lady on welcoming new life to the world. I'm a father as well. Two boys four and seven. Enjoy them now because it only goes downhill from here. Lol. Just playing. Congrats.

[Logan Murdoch]

No he's not.

[Cliff]

I would like to hear the panel with an answer to a suggestion to help with tanking. I'd like to hear what Howard, MF and Beck thinks. What if you had to win a certain amount of games to be eligible to have your team's name and a hat for certain picks? In order to be considered for the first three picks of the draft, teams would have to have at least 20 wins. With picks four and five, teams would need to at least have 15 games picks six, 10 teams with 14 or less wins. They could be dispersed among those teams from a drawing of some sort. Kenny Smith sat on inside the NBA. You could at least get 25 wins in the league just from playing hard. I agree with that. Raja, do you second that Philly has shown us. Sorry Cliff. Lol. That just because you're tanking or positioning your team for better draft capital that the number one pick will always bear fruit. That pick is not always going to be Cooper, Flag, Braun, Wemby, Kay, Cunningham, Ant man. It's no guarantee those top three picks are going to turn the franchise around. But if those picks would go to a team that has some sort of direction instead of betting it all one guy to turn them around, I think it would make a world of a difference in gameplay. Raja is always telling us that it is hard just being the guy night in and night out if and when that draft pick doesn't work out like intended. You said attended but you are still stuck at the bottom. Just my thoughts. Y'all be cool. Real ones.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah.

[Cliff]

Bay Area lingo, whatever that means. I don't know how to do it. I don't know how to do it.

[Logan Murdoch]

Big Y. That's why. Big Raja fan. I like the idea. I'm not mad at it. I like the idea. Maybe he needs to get hired by the competition committee. That sounds. That sounds fun. I like that. I mean it promotes more competition and we, we actually seem to get to see rookies on like good teams. You don't get to see that that.

[Raja Bell]

Much what was it? What was. Could you give me the number of games again, bro? It was a long question, so I kind of like.

[Cliff]

All right, so for the number of games here, let me run that back. So it says here for. To. In order to be considered for the first three picks of the draft, teams would have to at least win 20 games. With picks four and five, teams would have to win at least 15 games. Pick six through 10 teams with 14 or less, and they could be dispersed among those teams from a drawing of some sort.

[Raja Bell]

I always like competition. Look, I mean, play basketball for a living, okay? I'm not the most intelligent person in the world, so trying to figure out how to fix all these broken, like.

[Logan Murdoch]

Shoot yourself some bail. You're fucking smart. Give me some grace.

[Raja Bell]

Give me some grace.

[Logan Murdoch]

Not gonna let you do that.

[Raja Bell]

But I will say this. I'm always for, I'm always for competition for the prize, right? So if the number one pick is the prize, then I'm always for a more competitive landscape to get that. Like, I just think that's, that's healthier for, for, for teams and for leagues. However, if, if, if. Because you're just so bad and the players that you have on your team, like, aren't good enough to get it done. How do you get a team out of that space if they can never have a shot at the best players? Like. So I just, I don't, I don't have the answer to that, right? Like, you're, you're stuck in this spot. If you're a bad team of. You can't really. It's hard to entice good players to come there via free agency in any real capacity because you guys are a dumpster fire, right? No one wants to go there. If you're not going to get a shot at any of the best talent coming out in any given year, I don't see how. Those teams don't just stay mired in, in, in the shit that they're in. So like, I mean, I, I kind of like it, but at the same time, I don't. I'm kind of iffy.

[Howard Beck]

The whole reason we have a reverse order draft is to help the teams that need it most, right? That's the whole point of the exercise, right? But the second you make it like if it were purely reverse order as it once was once upon a time, then the worst team always gets the best player. And so now you have incentive to be really, really bad and you have the race to the bottom, right? So you get the lottery then you get different versions of the lottery and all the different reforms over the years, right? That's how we got here. But the league still has an interest in trying to make sure that bad teams have an avenue to get better, whether it was because injuries, whether it was because they had a star who retired, whether it's, they're just in a small market, nobody wants to go there. There's only three ways to get stars, right? Draft, trade, free agency. Superstars don't go to certain markets in free agency, and they might keep you from acquiring them in trade, too, by saying, I'm not resigning with you. So the draft is the best way for smaller markets or colder markets, less attractive markets to get guys. The league's got to balance all of this. So like to, to the, to the email from the listener about trying to incentivize teams to win down the stretch to dissuade tanking. There have been versions of this batted around, right? There's the. Whether you lock it in at the, at All Star or short few weeks after that, whatever, the losses matter before that, that, that certain point and then the wins matter after that. So now your lottery balls are connected to how much you win after, say, whatever, March 1st, and you add that to your losses before. Like, there are stuff like that that people have batted around over the years and they're all interesting and they all have some merit, flattening the lottery odds even further so that there's even less incentive to be one of the worst teams. But now there might be incentive to go from 10th to 7th or from just inside the playoff range to just outside of playoff range. So you're constantly, every time you tinker, you're just moving where the inflection point is or where the incentive is to maybe lose in March and April instead of winning. So it's a really delicate balance, in fairness. And the league has grappled with all this over years. I will just say, and I put this line in my story about tanking last week on the ringer.com people can go check that one out. But this is not the worst we've ever seen, right? That the mid 2010s, when this process was going on in Philly and a lot of other teams were doing various things. The, the, especially the multi year tank. The league freaking hates the multi year tank that like the Philly, like the Sixers did.

[Cliff]

I mean, damn.

[Logan Murdoch]

But you get it every year, every episode.

[Howard Beck]

It's your team that is at fault for all this, really.

[Raja Bell]

The branded tank.

[Howard Beck]

The branded tank. But that didn't work out.

[Logan Murdoch]

Work out bad though. Like it, you know, you got two franchise stars.

[Howard Beck]

I always say it worked. You got, you got Embiid and Simmons. That Embiid can't stay healthy and that Ben Simmons like suddenly forgot how to play basketball or whatever and had back problems. It did work. You got two franchise studs. And that's the point of the exercise. So teams are always.

[Raja Bell]

And you have Mark. I mean, you had the Markel Fultz they could, I mean, they would have produced, but you know what I mean.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah. No, you're going to have misfires. The whole thing is the draft is, is, is a crapshoot to some extent. You're going to have misfires. So when you give yourself more shots at a top three pick that you can have misfires like Okafor and Fultz and still come out ahead of the game with Simmons and Embiid. And you know, who knows if they just kept Jimmy Butler years ago where things might have gone. But anyway, sorry, Cliff, there's, there's the, the incentives to tank are always going to be there. This is not the worst version of we've seen, but when you have teams like Toronto and Utah and others where they're literally like benching guys to start the fourth quarter so that they can put their G league players out there because they're trying to make sure they lose the game, like that's not good for the league. I don't like this stuff. I don't han ring over this stuff. I'm not pro clutching. I don't really care. But it's a problem for the league because the league feels it's a problem for the league. They have an image problem. They have a people turning off their TV and complaining that there's nobody worth watching in March problem. They have teams complaining about each other as they out tank try to out tank each other and them sneering at each other Problem like this is an ongoing concern for the league. It's ongoing conversation. I have no doubt the competition committee is going to be addressing this in full in the off season. I won't be surprised in the least if we see further reforms by next season.

[Cliff]

All right, good stuff. Blame the Sixers. Next question. Always Pistons and Wolves scuffle question. This is from Robert Bruiser. Hey, roll ones Pistons fan here. I was watching the Pistons Wolves game when the squabble happened and like most fans, I instantly felt defensive of my team. The Pistons, when I'm mostly interested in it, is that Dante Divincenzo seemed really focused on Ron Holland, really interested in trying to flex and dominate Holland, be the tough guy. Common sports thing, but Dante DiVincenzo is 28 years old and Ron Holland is a rookie 19 year old. Obviously they are illegal adults, but I think it is weird and inappropriately aggressive to target someone with that kind of age gap. Holland seemed a little bit more shaken up after the scuffle, which makes sense to me. Raja, what do you think? Is there any additional responsibility for a 28 year old in the league versus a rookie when it comes to violence on the court? Does Dante DiVincencho get cred for bullying a 19 year old? Am I making too much of the age gap? Thanks, Robbie B.

[Logan Murdoch]

Let's go to the Crash out correspondent Raja Bell. Wow.

[Raja Bell]

Robbie B. Um, no, dude. Like, you're in a profession, you're in a professional basketball league, homie. Like, you old enough to be here, you old enough to get these hands if push comes to shove. So just know that. I don't.

[Logan Murdoch]

I squabble up.

[Raja Bell]

I mean, bullying is a real thing. Like, it's a, it's a real thing. So, like, I can't apply it in this context. Like, that's, that's a step too far for me. Robbie B, whether he had something going on or whether they had something going on that, that caused him to be more of a target in the, in the, in the eventual like, scuffle than anybody else. Like, I can't really speak to, like, I didn't, I didn't see the whole game, but I don't see it. No. Like, we're out there. I can't, I can't worry about how old you are.

[Howard Beck]

Yo.

[Logan Murdoch]

Hey, let me see your birth certificate real quick so I can fight you, bro.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, that's like being, that's like being in a club back in the day and, and shit starts popping off and you got to ask somebody like, hey man, can I see your ID real quick before. I can't worry about that right now. So. No, I don't, I don't see it as, as that. I, I do understand, like, being a fan of the, of the Pistons, like, you know, fans, bigger picture that's always so fascinating to me is how like two fans from different sides of the. From different sides can see the exact same thing and just come up with these two completely opposite arguments as to why it happened and who's at fault and who did what. And like an impartial person sitting there is like, like, both of you guys are crazy. Like, that that shit just happened. Like, it just, it just happened. We talked about somebody getting bullied by a 28 year old because he's 19. Robbie, thanks for listening, bro. I love you. I didn't mean to like, but. No, no, you out there on an NBA court now. How about this though, Robbie, to just. If. If Dante DiVincenzo is playing at like, let's say, Villanova in the summertime and there is a 19 year old that's still in college and he's, he's hooping and Dante DiVincenzo runs up on him and starts, you know, trying to fight him in that context, like, I, I could see that a little bit. Like. Right. But we're in the same.

[Cliff]

Can John Morant do that?

[Logan Murdoch]

Same John Moran. We don't say that John Morant did that in his part.

[Cliff]

And like, wasn't a young boy hooping at his crib or something.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, yeah, that, that, that's different for me. But when we're out here on the same court, like getting paid by the same people representing the same league, I don't see the age gap as being any kind of factor in it. I personally.

[Logan Murdoch]

One more question.

[Cliff]

Let's see. This is really random. This is from Buster. Buster Brzezinski, NBA player. He'll turn Logan, you might, you might be good at this one in 2025. John Cena is a bad guy. Who in the NBA has had a heel turn lately. Best one I could think of is Kevin Durant. I don't agree with that. But from the guy who played Madden with school kids in Seattle to now, been a heel for years. Big fan from day one. Mr. Brez.

[Raja Bell]

That boy's name is Buster Brzezinski.

[Logan Murdoch]

That's fire.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, yeah, that's what's up.

[Logan Murdoch]

That's fire.

[Cliff]

By the way, I don't think just me personally, I don't think KD turned hill. I just. I think he's just fed up with the bs.

[Logan Murdoch]

I think that. I think everything that KD has done in that way has kind of just been like whatever the media environment has suggested he is at that point. Like he really just wanted to come to the Beta hoop. Like I, I think if you ask him in the moment and after, he really just wanted to come to hoop and then everything went the way it did. The last heel turn from a player, was it Ja.

[Cliff]

Is that a heel turn though?

[Logan Murdoch]

I don't know.

[Cliff]

Or is that just somebody crashing out?

[Logan Murdoch]

I mean, no, I'm like, I'm dead. Both. Right? I mean, Braun, I guess was a heel turn. Actually, like, consciously.

[Cliff]

It's literally.

[Logan Murdoch]

The hill became a heel because of this. Right. Like, he just.

[Cliff]

Yeah.

[Logan Murdoch]

Which made it fascinating. The move all the more fascinating. I was trying to find something more that was more high profile, but, like, I think that's what it is.

[Howard Beck]

That's also 15 years ago. Like, is there anything since?

[Logan Murdoch]

Nah. Who.

[Cliff]

Could it be from? Like, a owner franchise. That's, like, not necessarily a player. Like, could a franchise have done, like, a crazy hill turn or, like, a move or something? I'm not sure.

[Logan Murdoch]

Oh. Oh, Nico Harrison. He'll turn.

[Raja Bell]

I'm signing off. Goodbye.

[Logan Murdoch]

All right, all right. That was. That was. That was another episode. That was another episode of Real Woods. I am Logan Murdoch. That is Roger Bell. That's Howard Beck. Cliff on the boards, Victoria on the video. Man, this is a great episode. Talk to y'all on Friday. Me and Ra and potentially a special guest. Ah, all this shit.

[Cliff]

Foreign.

[Logan Murdoch]

Must be 21 years and older and president. Select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and older and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rghelp.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org backslash chat in Connecticut or visit mdgambling help.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit Gambling Helpline ma.org or call 1-800-327-5050. For 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.