Harden Grifts His Way to a Series Lead. Plus, Dylan Harper’s Ceiling, and Kyle’s Combine Report. | Group Chat

Summary

The Ringer NBA Show: Group Chat

Episode Title: Harden Grifts His Way to a Series Lead. Plus, Dylan Harper’s Ceiling, and Kyle’s Combine Report.
Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Mann
Date: May 14, 2026

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Overview

This packed episode of Group Chat dives into three meaty topics:

1. How James Harden used every trick in the book to push the Cavs past the Pistons in a critical playoff win.
2. The surprising rookie impact of Dylan Harper and where he might ultimately rank among modern elite prospects.
3. J. Kyle Mann’s on-the-ground observations from the NBA Draft Combine—including rumors, risers, and structural dilemmas facing the league and the draft process.

Throughout, hosts maintain their signature irreverent, deeply knowledgeable tone—oscillating from affectionate nerding-out on prospect biomechanics to ribbing one another about Max Strus’s handsomeness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. James Harden's "Grift" Propels Cavs in Playoffs (04:10–19:12)

The Art of the "Grift"

• Justin Verrier: Frames Harden as “a fucking grifter to the extreme,” lauding his ability to game the smallest margins especially as his athleticism fades.
  “He is just finding all the little angles to work in order to get him to this point. Three, two up on the Pistons.” (05:15)

• Rob Mahoney: Defends Harden’s gamesmanship:
  “It's a whatever-it-takes kind of game... It should surprise us none that he has found ways to walk the line of the landing zone rules… This is what he does and he does it very well. But he also was just a really important engine for the Cavs.” (05:28)

• Kyle Mann: Breaks down Harden’s exploits on the “landing zone” calls, joking about how it’s almost impossible for refs to legislate what a player’s “natural” landing motion is.
  “At one point he was like doing the Smooth Criminal lean, mid-air… landed like three feet forward… those were some maddening plays.” (06:27)

Cavs vs. Pistons: Margins & Mistakes

• Harden’s efficiency wasn’t great (8-for-21), but he ground out key scores.
• Pistons’ Cade Cunningham continues to seesaw between brilliance and costly blunders due to both his heavy workload and lack of support.
  • “It really feels like he is running into a wall super hard. And then all of the possessions all of a sudden are going through Dennis Jenkins and grenades are ending up with Caris LeVert. And like, that cannot be how your season ends.” (11:44) — Rob
• Mobley’s play as a roller and connector is central to Cleveland's offense when Mitchell is limited.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Harden’s “grift” legacy:
  “Harden’s game spiritually is in the Cayman Islands at all times, like in some kind of busted tax shelter. And yet this is the result...” (07:57) — Rob Mahoney
• On Cade’s help (or lack thereof):
  “You just have too many guys out there that… just won’t even look at the rim… is it fair to penalize Cade for not being able to carry all the load?” (11:44) — Kyle Mann

Max Strus Appreciation

• Hosts: Laud Strus for physicality, two-way play, and being “spackle” for Cavaliers’ gaps.
  “He jumps into passing lanes and throws his body around. He’s really, dare I say Kyle, the Spackle for this Cavs team.” (26:44) — Justin Verrier

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2. Dylan Harper: Historic Rookie Playoff Impact & Projected Ceiling (30:11–49:47)

The Jerk Fest: Harper’s Uncanny Arrival

• Justin Verrier: Marvels at Harper as a rare rookie bench player leading his team so deep into the playoffs; statistically unique outside of names like Barkley/Herro.
  “There really aren’t many comps in terms of points per game… it’s just completely unique what he’s doing.” (31:43)
• Rob Mahoney:
  “He was taken second overall. It’s just all happened so quickly and unimpeachably… There is no downside here. He just comes in. He’s a flamethrower in terms of efficiency.” (31:49)

How Special Is Harper?

• Kyle Mann:
  • Labels Harper arguably the best finishing guard prospect in 20 years.
    “I think he’s going to be the best finishing guard in the league very soon. If not…” (33:08)
  • Discusses “angularity” and physicality—Harper bullies defenders with tempo and footwork not seen since Harden or Marshawn Lynch (“through your effing face”).
• On Ceiling vs. Peers:
  • Robust debate: Does Harper have an argument above Cade? Over Flag? Hosts agree Wemby is #1, but flag and Cade are top-tier, with Harper not far off.
    • “If someone was to put your life on the line and they were like, ‘Are you absolutely positive Dylan Harper is not going to be better than Cade?’ I couldn’t say that…” (46:40) — Kyle Mann

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Harper’s playoff presence:
  “The best versions of Dylan Harper are going to have that organic thing … but also some of the methodical Cade stuff. That’s what you need to be a God-tier playmaker.” (48:23) — Rob Mahoney

• Comedy:

  • The “Dylan Harper Jerk Fest” segment is a running gag for his breakout, and the hosts roast each other for gratuitous innuendo throughout (33:32, 52:20).

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3. Kyle’s NBA Combine Report & Rethinking the NBA Draft (50:00–74:46)

What Was Buzzing at the Combine?

• Kyle Mann:
  • Paints the scene in Chicago—notes Presti’s fashion (3 shades of navy), schmoozing execs, and Sam Presti’s unique “Wes Anderson” vibe.
  • Philosophical rift in the draft community: Analytics-vs-eye test on top picks (AJ vs. Darren Peterson).
  • Jazz not dead set on A.J. Dybansa despite tanking for #1; open to “star-like” Darren Peterson, fitting with their timeline (53:41).
    • “I got the impression that the Jazz are… not a given that they’re going to be beholden to… AJ. And they like Darren Peterson a lot.” (54:02)
• Combine Testing:
  • Max vert numbers can be gamed (“people undersell their height so their vert looks bigger”), but Peterson and Dybansa both measured with NBA-ready size/wingspans.

The Second Round Problem & NIL Impact

• Hosts (esp. Kyle): Argue the second round is becoming meaningless due to NIL-induced talent drain and agents controlling outcomes—why not just abolish it for a free-agent-style system?
  “I’m just kind of like, why don’t we just go first round and then it’s open season after that? Because if players aren’t going to negotiate with these teams…” (62:29) — Kyle Mann

• NIL Influence:

  • College’s newfound cash leverage keeps prospects away from the NBA, drying up the second round and making the back half of the first less valuable.
  • Depth development (Thunder, Jenkins) and “pre-draft” stashing of raw freshmen might become the norm at the end of the first/second.

• International/College Feeder System:

  • Could international prospects re-emerge as domestic prospects stay in college? NBA's dream of a true minor league is complicated by U.S. colleges' new status as well-funded competitors.

• Humor & Self-deprecation:

  • Kyle and Justin joke about their own inability to physically survive a combine tryout:
    “I'm not going to do the full exertion. You’re just courting disaster.” (60:23) — Kyle Mann

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the new era of NIL:
  “It’s crazy… there isn't a draft to pick where the prospects go play in college. They just get to choose wherever they want to go for money.” (73:25) — Rob Mahoney

• When will real reform come?: “The NBA is still a league that wants to commission a study to potentially consider maybe making a change way down the line.” (73:46) — Rob Mahoney

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Memorable Lighter Moments

• Running Gag: Max Strus’s Looks
  • Justin, Rob, and Kyle riff on Max Strus’s “handsomest role player” status, culminating in a Charles Barkley quote:
    “That’s a pretty man. He’s a good looking man. I would not look him dead in the eyes.” (75:48)
• Shameless Combine Jokes:
  • Regular self-deprecation about their own old-man athleticism, rate of groaning while standing, and the dangers of mimicking the combine tests.
• Cam Boozer–Caleb Wilson shuttle cone drill hijinks show their delight in draft minutiae and the creative ways prospects try to “game” the numbers (very on-brand for draft content).

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:10 — Cavs/Pistons Game Analysis and Harden’s playoff “grift”
• 10:33 — Cade’s Usage, Pistons’ limits, and supporting cast issues
• 14:14 — Jalen Duren’s struggles & impact on Pistons’ future planning
• 23:42 — Max Strus’s pivotal role and “defensive spackle” label
• 30:11 — Dylan Harper’s Historic Rookie Playoff Impact: “The Jerk Fest”
• 36:57 — Is Harper the Spurs’ second-best player? How does he compare to Fox and Castle?
• 43:11 — Where does Harper slot vs. Cooper Flag, Cade, Wemby, and recent top picks?
• 51:04/53:41 — NBA Combine insights, ongoing AJ vs. Darren debate, and Jazz top pick possibilities
• 62:11 — Should there even be a second round in the draft given NIL exodus?
• 69:32–74:46 — International players, NIL as a “feeder system” killer, college vs. NBA’s player pipeline
• 75:48 — Chuck Barkley on Max Strus; hosts joke about impersonating Max

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Summary

This episode is quintessential Group Chat: sharp playoff analysis, hilarious roster and combine stories, and deeply wonkish draft talk. Listeners get both technical insights (from spacing issues for Cade to biomechanics in the shuttle drill) and a sense of the ongoing transformation in basketball’s player pipeline—set against a backdrop of playoff drama and bonkers rookie performances. If you’re invested in where the NBA is heading and enjoy banter as much as analysis, this is essential listening (and reading).

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For more on the Harden/Pistons series, Dylan Harper’s rookie comps, or the wild shifting territory of the NBA Draft, check out the full episode or follow @ringer on your podcast app of choice.

Transcript

[Rob Mahoney]

Foreign.

[Justin Varior]

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Varior and joining me, Rob Mahoney and Combine J Kyle Mann. Kyle, back from Chicago.

[Kyle Mann]

How's it going, Combine, Kyle? Oh, yeah, man. Love going up there. It always lives up to its name. It was windy and really chilly there. I was not ready for that. It was like a walk like this down the street kind of thing. Love Chicago, though. It's got a nice charm to it. The waterfront down there. Beautiful. The bridge there. I don't know how much time you guys have spent in Chicago. Have you at night?

[Justin Varior]

This isn't the early ad. This isn't for Chicago tourism. That's going to come in a couple minutes.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's actually in itself. We're going to really get in the weeds on it.

[Kyle Mann]

I was walking by myself at night and I walked across and I just like, looked up and I was like, damn it. This place is just. It's. I'm a little smitten with it right now. It is. It's lovely. Like Chicago.

[Rob Mahoney]

They got you at the right time of year for sure. But how's your. How's your schmoozing doing? I mean, you're coming out of the mingle of all mingles at the combine. Do you feel sufficiently small talked?

[Kyle Mann]

It is if you look across the combine, you know, because the event itself, I mean, you can absorb a lot of it on tv. I mean, there are things that go on that. That are. That are a little subtle between the. You know, between the events, between the ju. But you'll see somebody like Sam Presti is sitting there on the front row. Wired earbuds. I just want to say wired earbuds, in a nice sweater, hair, looking great, just intently staring. And I had moments where I would get just so distracted by what is he staring at? You know, because I'm in the same room and I'm looking and I'm like, these are just drills. I just. Would you really wonder what goes in it on in that guy's head and what makes him tick? Because he was looking at something. He wasn't. He was the only guy in the room not having a conversation. All the other execs absolutely were.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think he like 7, 8 jazz drum time signatures in his head just like running or.

[Justin Varior]

There was that story today that came out that he's like envisioning the players actually being alongside each other. Someone called it method, but I don't think that's actually what that is. I think he was just.

[Kyle Mann]

That's a good explanation.

[Justin Varior]

It was visualization. It literally was.

[Kyle Mann]

He was just.

[Justin Varior]

It's funny because, yeah, at the, at the hoop summit, like when I was at the practice there, everyone is sitting there watching things happen and everyone is dressed basically the same. It's just like various versions and textures of quarter zips. And then Sam Presti comes in late, presumably because he had a very high level meeting he had to attend to before. Just resplendent. Like he had the, the, the cardigan all the way buttoned up. Like you could see kind of like his muscles rippling before. But it wasn't too obvious.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like just.

[Kyle Mann]

Oh, we're talking about his muscles now. Okay.

[Justin Varior]

He was just like, he struck a very specific figure in comparison to everybody. I mean, there were former professional basketball players, Tayshot Prince, all these other guys who were there, but he was just like dialed in in a way that you would hope that the best GM in the league would look.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, this is the power move, right? In a world in which athleisure has become the standard, like, who's going to be the first coach who, even though he doesn't have to, just starts showing up in a full suit again, just to say, like, fuck it, we're, we're taking this professionally. I think someone should actually do it.

[Kyle Mann]

That's happening in college. But he's kind of the Wes Anderson style dresser of the, of the NBA, right? Like, he's quite, he came in one time and I, I, I remember I saw him one time and he had on three different shades of navy. Not like a. He was, he was in the Navy neighborhood. Yeah, I was just like, he's got his own style going. It's, it's good. It's not bad. It's good.

[Justin Varior]

All right, we'll get to some of the stuff from the combine that Kyle compiled for us later on here.

[Kyle Mann]

That's actually all I have, actually.

[Justin Varior]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

Three navies and we're out.

[Justin Varior]

Quick pod. Then we're gonna get to Dylan Harper's another breakthrough performance later. But we gotta talk about the first game on the docket right after this very cool advertisement. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by fanduel. It's been a wild playoff run, but it's not over yet. And FanDuel wants to bring you closer to the court to make more of all the action to come. FanDuel is the best place to bet teams, players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout, or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 plus select states 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER, call 1-888-78-9777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. All right, Cavs are up 3, 2. Improbably it's funny cuz James Harden did the walk off interview after he scored 30 in the overtime win and he had some like really like TikTok coded quote about like Cavs are just finding this is a new team and we're just still writing our story. I felt like somber was playing in the background as like a 21 year old tells me how to live properly in my life. I would say the story that Harden is writing in these playoffs, Rob, is that he is a fucking grifter to the extreme. Like clearly isn't getting things as quickly as before. The athleticism is waning but like holy shit, the grift is like way past this, including like sneaking in to get the offensive rebound when Kane doesn't box him out. And so I don't know, he's just finding all the little angles to work in order to get him to this point. Three, two up on the Pistons.

[Rob Mahoney]

I agree with you completely, but do we have to start there? Do we have to start with the grift when they did? Plus here's the thing, like it's a whatever it takes kind of game and so if it needs to be won by hook or by crook, James Harden is going to do it. It should surprise us none that he has found ways to walk the line of the landing zone rules just as he walked the line of the gather and like looping people's arms like this is what he does and he does it very well. But he also was just a really important engine for the Cavs in a game where Donovan Mitchell I thought at the beginning of the game it felt like the Cavs were kind of intentionally going away from Mitchell to establish other stuff. Then he turns his ankle kind of like stepping backwards on a photographer after a layup. Doesn't seem to have any explosion from that point. Had a hard time separating the entire rest of the night. And yet James Harden's just here sometimes grifting points, sometimes getting them. Like actually holistically. I thought he played like a really great and really important game and, and maybe he is just going to have the last laugh in a series like this after taking so much of a beating earlier in it.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah, I mean the efficiency wasn't great in this one, 8 for 21 at 38%. You know, 3 for 10 from 3 in the first half. It was like Yakety Sack city. The balls flying all over the place. Detroit's out in transition. It was. It was messy. It was sloppy. You're talking about the landing zone thing, man. I mean, I just like, I can't. And. And then Legler was on there, who is like one of my dudes I love. Like there. He was talking about natural landing motion. I was like, how do we even legislate that conversation? Because, like, do you need like a prior history to argue that that's your natural landing motion? Like, do we have on some agreed upon thing? Because he was like, at one point he was like doing the smooth criminal lean, like mid air. He was just like, yeah, yeah, he. He landed like I was asking. It was like three feet forward. Like, what do you do in that case? I mean, Tobias is trying to like break and not touch him. It's just. I really. I really. Those were some maddening plays. That one in particular.

[Rob Mahoney]

You're describing an artist, you know, that's innovation, is it not?

[Sponsor Voice]

A crazy.

[Kyle Mann]

It reminded me more of like. I was going to say it's more like a. It's the opposite of an auditor. It's like, it's someone who works in like tax filing that knows the code really well. And he's just like, if you do this here, you do this here. It's just he's. He is kind of an. He's not an auditor. Whatever the opposite of that is. He's just. Grifter might be sufficient, but that's what it reminded me of. He's. He knows the code so well that he just. That's how he survives. Yeah, his.

[Rob Mahoney]

Harden's game spiritually is in the Cayman Islands at all times, like in some kind of busted tax shelter. And yet this is. This is the result and the like. Honestly, the Pistons don't have a lot of answer for it. Like, they have just enough targetable defenders right now where Harden can go at people. I thought Mobley played a really important game, kind of like prying people loose with his screening and rolling and been a good outlet for them in that regard as well. I mean, it was just. This episode is brought to you by Ferrero. Soccer's international tournament is here and Ferrero is going all in. Enter for your shot at a range of prizes just by buying your favorites like Tic Tac Fresh Mints Cool Minty and Simple. Or Halo Top Ice Cream loaded with Crave Worthy mixins in every bite and half the calories of leading competitors. Go all in. Buy any two Ferrero brands and you could win $1 million. Official rules apply. Learn more at goallinandwin.com enough. And the Pistons frankly, like, let the Cavs hang in this game in a way that they just could not and should not have done.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, I think it's an interesting contrast, Harden's performance up against Kate, because this is kind of like his star trajectory that he's on. And throughout this entire playoffs, I've just been waiting patiently to be like, is Cade just one of the absolute best players with the Bullet? No actual, like, other stuff you could throw in there to knock his case. But then the turnovers start to mount and in this one there are two big lapses that ultimately I think kind of proved the difference. Or at the very least, those are the two biggest plays. We talked about the not boxing out Harden on the final free throws. He gets in all of a sudden practically game over. And then before you have the Donovan Mitchell 3 giving way to Cade turnover and Max Drew hits it, that's like the type of, what was it, like a five point swing that like kind of proved the difference. When Rob is right, it was a by any like, means necessary sort of performance. I do think that's where Harden at this stage of his year, his career kind of thrives because he can work those little margins that make a big difference.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, it's not like again, Donovan Mitchell managed to put up some points at the end and had a good closing kick. But it's not like the Cavs had beautiful offense all throughout this game. They had a Pistons esque kind of performance of their own where James Harden was gutting out all this stuff. I thought they were really good defensively and really complicating everything for the Pistons in the process, but they just had that balance and they won enough of those marginal plays despite all of those horrible turnovers all throughout the game. I mean, I have no idea what Harden is doing with some of those passes, but he was just, just good enough on balance for them to squeak out a game like this.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah, I mean, Cade, I was texting somebody of this tonight. Like, Kate, for as brilliant as he is, he does seem to seesaw between brilliance and brain fart at times. You're just like, what? What was he like? I mean, I kind of thought that Max Stru. Max Strus was huge. We should talk about him at some point, like in terms of just setting the tone, like, of toughness. I Mean, I think he met Detroit, he came out, rode out and met them head on. But Kate, you know, I want to, I want to point out the thing about Cade, like in that sort of just flip flopping back and forth. But then also you're just kind of like, I don't want to go too far in indicting him for that when he's just getting no help. Like, it's like perceivably, you know who, you know, Tobias was really quiet in the fourth quarter. And then you've got. I'm sure we'll talk about Jalen Duran. It's like a Sar Thompson's really important. You just, you have too many guys out there that like, if you're playing your best lineup, if you're the Pistons that just won't even look at the rim. So they're having to turn to all these guys. Like Sasser got in. That was like a weird appearance for him. Granted, you're being stressed by Duncan not being there. If Cade had a little bit of help. I guess that's a discussion there. It's like, how much do we penalize Cade for not being able to carry all the load? Because that's what he's being asked to do.

[Rob Mahoney]

Especially when I feel like a lot of the time that conversation about, okay, Cade needs help, he needs another ball handler on the floor, he needs a facilitating four. Like whatever it is on that given day that we're talking about more space, usually we're talking about execution and we're just talking about in a normal half court set, how do you make it not so reliant on Cade. But then you zoom out and it's like the cumulative toll of all that is you get to the ends of these games and every single night now it feels like Kate is running out of steam. And that's where the mental mistakes start piling up. The turnovers get worse. He's not boxing people out, as you mentioned, jv. It's like it really feels like he is running into a wall super hard. And then all of the possessions all of a sudden are going through Dennis Jenkins and Grenades are ending up with Caris Lavert. And like, that cannot be how your season ends. That cannot be what everything is riding on.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, it's unfortunate because Jenkins in particular had a very good night. Like I was thinking to myself, we always have over the summer, usually, like, who's the best two way player in the NBA? I think we need to have a discussion. Who's the best two way contract player to ever come out of the NBA because, like, he and A.J. mitchell practically has been at times with their postseason, because this was his first start in the postseason and he was very good in that. I think Asar also had very special moments. But the flip side of the Assar blocking Jared Allen at the high point out of nowhere and just making strips that like, he just materializes. Both he and Amen have this just special ability to just be there in an instance. And it's not just like, physical attributes and like, quickness and all this stuff. It's just like the IQ and timing is just on a completely other level. They just are like the Flash at times, unfortunately. Like, there are other times on offense where it's like he gets down underneath the basket and he just doesn't know where to go or just be trapped in the corner trying to run a handoff with Cade where it's like, where is he going to go with that? Like, there's literally like a foot of space left here. And so I think you guys are right. I think Cade obviously is still maturing into this, but the workload is heavy. I mean, outside of Embiid, he, I think, is tied with Shay for usage rate. And I imagine once I look at that again tonight, it's probably going to be him first and foremost. He's just doing so much. And they're really aren't the sort of release valves that you even have with the Cavs, where it's like, even Evan Mobley, who once again has like two minutes of. Of like, impressive play, and all of a sudden you're like, whoa. Just blows your wig back. Like, whoa, water is wine. Everything is great. Like, there are very precious few of those options for Cade. Typically that's been Tobias, but Tobias was absent for, I would say, like, three quarters of this game. Absolutely rough start. Absolutely rough finish.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, Tobias did not play great. J.B. bickerstaff finally did the thing he's been a little loath to do, which is basically bench Jalen Duran down the stretch in favor of Paul Reed. But, I mean, you could do the same thing with Beef Stew. Frankly, both of those guys have outplayed Duran in this series. I just think they're finding maybe overthinking it a little bit. As far as the search for help goes, all these things are true. Cade needs more help, but I don't know that anyone needs so much help that, like, Karis Lavert needs to be featured this prominently. And this is kind of one of the. The tricks of game four was Charis LeVert was so good. You talk yourself into believing, okay, what if he's just going to pop for the rest of the series. But I thought taking a Sar Thompson out of the game for some of those critical stretches actually worked against them because Detroit's best offense in so many moments was can a Sar Thompson make an incredible defensive play? And we get out on the break as a result. And that's where Dennis Jenkins ball handling was really important because Kate could kick it up without having to take care of it all himself. You just lost all of that mechanism to make exceptional defensive plays for the sake of. Can we just carve out a little more spacing to dig ourselves out of this hole that we got ourselves into an overtime in the first place?

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah, I mean, you saw it over and over again. I mean, it. Well, it happened a lot. I was noticing in the second half and it's like Danas is a little bit smaller when you. When he was getting the ball below the free throw line. And you saw it a little bit with USAR too. The Cavs were just bringing their entire defense below the free throw line and making those kick out passes a lot harder to make. And it just, it was harder to. To find flow. I mean we. And the erraticness too, that you court whenever you start going into the bench. It's like Karis Lavert, what a. What a wild ride of a career that guy has had. I was looking at it. What is his career high in assist? If you just had to guess. Caris Lavert.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's.

[Kyle Mann]

It'll surprise you.

[Justin Varior]

Will it?

[Rob Mahoney]

I feel like it's less than you think. Cause you have your.

[Justin Varior]

He's had like triple doubles like out of nowhere when he was on the Pacers or something. Like, well, 12.

[Kyle Mann]

You think he averaged 12 assists a game at some point I thought like game high.

[Justin Varior]

You were saying average.

[Kyle Mann]

Oh, like I maybe misspoke. Oh, six. He averaged six at one point. I thought that. That surprised me anyway.

[Rob Mahoney]

Honestly does.

[Kyle Mann]

What a ride. Anyway. B ball. Paul out there, you're just living and dying with his erraticness, which is his fearlessness to go at Evan Mobley head on. And you're like, oh, he kind of did something there. And then it's like, oh, he spun and threw the ball out of bounds. It's just they're having to rely on people who are just not as reliable. Maybe you're right, Rob. And they're just going, they're overthinking it, but they're living and dying with some pretty chaotic margins right now.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I think that's generally the problem with their offense. And this is the reason why, even though spacing isn't all that it's cracked up to be relative to five years ago in the NBA and you do need so much more of a downhill thrust to your offense. Spacing just makes things so much easier and you have to overthink it when you're the Pistons because you're constantly shuffling between how do we get flow our offense? Is this the right balance of the lineup? Assar Thompson is out there, but does he understand the mechanisms that he needs to be playing within this particular possession? It's like you have to reinvent the wheel so many times when you're a team like Detroit. And honestly, Cleveland can fall into some of those same ruts too. They just have enough exemplary shot making night to night between Mitchell and Harden where one of those guys is going to pick up slack and Mobley has been just good enough and Allen has just been like consistent and physical enough. And they're getting, I think some, some awesome contributing efforts from Streuss in particular that are just kind of like ironing a lot of this stuff out for them. And I mean, clearly the margins in the series are very, very thin, but Cleveland feels decisively, I don't know, like I'm trying, I'm trying to put my finger on like why they feel more in control in an overtime like this relative to a team like the Pistons that should be able to make a statement.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, they're short in rotation. I think they just have a better understanding of an identity amongst them. And there's enough, well, roundedness to all those seven or eight guys that it all kind of fits together in a way that even when the Pistons are at full strength, they don't really quite get there. I think if I had a criticism for JB Bickerstaff tonight is that he spent a lot of time being like a little extreme with his searches. It's one thing to like try some stuff out, but it felt like we got a lot of short shifts of different things where we had Kevin Herder emerging after seven games. We had Sasser minutes. All of a sudden, even B ball Paul, like, I don't think he played until to start the fourth quarter. And then it feels like they rode him practically the entire way. And so it just felt like almost Tibsian where it's just like, well, we didn't use these guys before, but now we're rushed into it because we have to. And whenever you're in a position of have to doing something. It feels a little bit more pointed than with the Cavs. Like, this was just a natural extension of what they're typically doing.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah. And I think.

[Justin Varior]

Do you want.

[Kyle Mann]

Well, yeah, I was really quickly just attack on there. Yeah, I think it's. It is the dual elite ball handler, pick and roll operator, shop makers. I think that really helps. And then I think their bigs are just better decision makers that their. Their highs and lows just aren't as high and low. I mean, I know we've wanted more out of Evan Mobley, but I. I think overall they just. They have a. They have more to lean back on in that sense. I think.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I do think the best and consistent source of Cavs offense basically in this entire series has been Mobley on the roll, making decisions, spraying out to shooters. Like that has gotten them good stuff all throughout the series. And when you think about what Jalen Dern, for example, is giving the Pistons, he's having a couple, like, finding backdoor cutters passing moments. And I would say passing is frankly the best thing he's bringing to their offense at the moment. And that is just a massive, massive problem.

[Justin Varior]

Let me ask you this about Dern. Does this change how you think of him now? Obviously, he struggled more than literally anybody else, probably in the playoffs, at least at this deep into the playoffs. Um, and it will affect his contract negotiations this summer. But just like who he is, Rob, you're saying, like, you think of him, like, differently now?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I think so. I think it is the parts of his game that were supposed to be constant, and we were assured by his regular season would just be. You can pencil him in for good physical defense every night. Well, it turns out that depends on the matchup. And it depends. Depends on who he's getting bullied by and what kind of space he's being strewn into. You would hope that even if his own offense isn't going, that he could be an impactful offensive rebounder. Well, it turns out that that's matchup dependent, too. The fact that he doesn't honestly is, like, playing like he doesn't want the ball. And then when he does get the ball, he's kind of constantly looking over his shoulder, worried that somebody is going to swoop Boone from behind. I think that just speaks to his sort of, like, general court awareness in a way that he's so bruising and physical in the regular season. You can look past some of that and he can just overwhelm some of those limitations. But this guy that we're seeing right now, he's super young, he has a long career ahead of him. He's obviously going to develop in a lot of these critical ways. But as far as what he is right now, he's not making the impact on these, either of these series that he's been in at an all NBA level. And so I think you have to think about who he is present tense a little bit differently.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah, I think, I mean, we did a show, I think, where we were just raving about all the different things that he was flashing and showing. And I think it'd be interesting to go back and do sort of a dissection of like what was going on there in terms of like how he was being played. Like, just what exactly comprised, you know, that enthusiasm, what was driving it? Because when you compare it to now, you know, I was looking at his, at his over the course of the season and it's like self created offense was always a really small part of what he did. And you know, whether that's like he's, you know, isolating guys one on one or he's posting up or a mix of the two, it just got me kind of thinking about, you know, when guys are being asked or, you know, or we celebrate guys crossing that bridge from a strict play finisher at 22 years old to becoming, you know, all of a sudden a creator and somebody who is, you know, stirring the drink. That's a really hard process to, to go over in the. In over the course of an NBA career period. And you know, he's. And he's doing it as a big. And I just think you're talking about him not wanting the ball. It's like the best scores in the league or you know, bigs in particular, when they're in like short space, the lead to the, to the basket, they, they're very decisive and quick. Like, you know, it's not a, like, let me pound it, let me slow sort of. There's some guys that can kind of do that. Yeah, but the guys that, you know, you know, trade on their athleticism like, like Durin, it's like he's extremely indecisive. And I think it hasn't necessarily like made me think like, oh, he's a bad player. But I think it's, it's sort of like brought down like, okay, these are the things that during clearly needs to think about. I don't know, maybe if this is a conversation that will revisit in the fall and be like, did he learn from that? But I definitely think it's sort of. He definitely benefited from a really good regular season and he still has a lot to learn. I maybe we'll just pump the brakes on who we actually think he is. Yeah. To answer.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, when he gets a third team all NBA nod, it'll be pretty odd. I just think the overall Pistons have been just a blunt instrument with all of their success, and it's been quite good. But in contrast, especially to when you watch the Western Conference and you see teams like the spurs and the Thunder marry that physicality with so much nuance and like, even within on defense, just like they're the ability to time the iq, the just like the decisive swiping. It's like just a completely different style. I thought that would be enough to get past the Cavs, but, like, they do have enough wrinkles in order to match that just like, blunt object with like, different variations. And so, yeah, it's probably a good, like, time to talk about Max Stru. Would you say that he's the handsomest role player out there?

[Rob Mahoney]

I feel like you're more qualified to speak to that than literally anyone else on the planet.

[Justin Varior]

Listen, I think it just works.

[Kyle Mann]

That's what I would say. How do his muscles compare to Sam Presti's muscles?

[Justin Varior]

I have to get the tape measure up. Obviously huge in this one, and this is kind of what they've been missing most of the season. He's been hurt for a large, like, buckets of it and. And like this. The fact that they're getting anything from those wing positions has obviously been a boon for them.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I mean, we were talking about why, like, Jaylen Tyson basically got jettisoned from this game, and I think he kind of earned some of that. But also, frankly, Max DRO is so valuable. And also the combination Sam Merrill, Max Str, Dennis Scher minutes in which they're, you know, it's Harden out there with those three guys and one of the bigs that's like as free and clear as Cleveland's offense looks. And I got some really good minutes out of those groups in part because of the way Streuss flies around at the way he can defend multiple positions at the stress he puts people through. Like, you know, Jenkins is a great example of the kind of defender where he's honestly trying like Danis Jenkins puts in effort. He is trying to stay in front of people. But as we've alluded to many times in this episode alone, he's very small and has a really hard time getting around screens and so he has to lock and trail on max stru when he gets crossmashed or something. And it's like all of a sudden this is an exploitable mismatch. And that's true's powers. Honestly, even whether he's hitting his threes on a night or not. Like he's a good enough cutter, he's good enough driver, he's a good enough connecting passer. He just helps you like take the small advantage that comes out in the natural flow of play and stretch it into something that feels much more substantial.

[Kyle Mann]

Definitely. Like I was saying, I think he seemed to me to be the driving like because Cleveland can fall into these ruts of just like, you know, we want to run pretty offense and we want to do our offensive. I just feel like stress is the guy. Tyson does this too. Like you said, he kind of overstepped a little bit today. But I like, I kind of think that he's the pinpoint of. Of the guy who's like been forced like leading the charge to meet Detroit's physicality. You know, it's like you were talking about his, his. His attention to detail where like we'll see. Even if it is like his off ball action but the on ball defensive too I thought was really a place where he was really dictating a lot of that.

[Justin Varior]

Well, he's. I mean they have all of these wing options but stress is really the guy who should be winning those starter minutes because he's the one that has like both sides of the coin here. And you're right, like he has the heat DNA still in him in order to get after it defensively. Whereas like Dean Wade is kind of doing enough to get by in order to highlight some of the shooting aspects. And Sam Merrill is just a gunner who you're just hoping is going to fill it up in that regard when, when streuss things going, you see him like jumping into passing lanes and just like also throwing his body around and getting on the boards and everything that you would want in order to round out some of the stuff that the Cavs lack in particular like some of the rebounding stuff where it's like Harding can wax and Wayne Donovan. Mitchell obviously was hurting Evan mobile. You never know in a given minute which one is going to show up there. Like shoes is really, dare I say Kyle the Spackle for this cab team.

[Kyle Mann]

Can you defensively spackle?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think so.

[Kyle Mann]

Probably.

[Rob Mahoney]

Of course you can. I would argue most spackling is defensive. Is it not?

[Kyle Mann]

Interesting? Interesting. Okay, who's our parent of Spackler in the league, would you say?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, honestly, for a lot of this game, Asar was an exceptional one. I thought his ability to be like, technically guarding Donovan Mitchell, but also mucking up every passing lane for, you know, I would say the entire first half. That's, that's quite a good Spackling job.

[Kyle Mann]

Sorry, we're in the process of, of defining it. Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

God, that.

[Kyle Mann]

Did we talk about the trip. The trip trip at the end of regulation that they missed.

[Rob Mahoney]

That could have. We need to note that.

[Justin Varior]

Go ahead.

[Kyle Mann]

I mean, it was so for everything

[Rob Mahoney]

we've said about what the Pistons did or didn't do, they should have had at least one more chance to win this game. At the end of regulation. When Asar Thompson first came up with an unbelievable swipe down defensive play on Donovan Mitchell to stop the Cavs from winning the game outright. Came up with the loose ball initially, he and Jared Allen kind of like stepped at the same place at the same time in a way that's like, okay, that's incidental. But then Jared Allen clearly accidentally, but clearly tripped him with time on the clock, should be Pistons ball. No call was made. I am absolutely flummoxed by it. Like right in the eyeline of the ref, directly in front of them. How, how can you miss a play like that?

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah, I think the clock would have been what, I mean, it wasn't like Danan was going to, because I think it was Danis that was running out, but it was like he wasn't going to get like a layup out of it. But Asar had time to throw it to him, I think, and there was going to be a shot. I mean, I, I, I thought that was a pretty egregious miss.

[Justin Varior]

Having said that, Pistons were up nine with about four minutes to go. Yeah, one might say that they got tripped up from there.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay. Are you proud of yourself?

[Justin Varior]

No, that was pretty bad, actually. All right, why don't we take a break? Thank you, Kyle, for the support, for the camaraderie.

[Kyle Mann]

I wallow down in the shamelessness too. So anyway, throw to break.

[Justin Varior]

Justin, get in the mud. Let's go to break. We'll come back, we'll talk about some other stuff. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. FanDuel is giving you better payouts on same game parlays all NBA playoffs long with more ways to build and more value every time you play. You could stack your picks your way for every game, every matchup, and every moment from spreads to player points to threes and more. Build it all into one same game parlay and go for bigger payouts. So if you're betting same game parlays this NBA postseason, bet them on FanDuel more options, better payouts all NBA playoffs long. Head to FanDuel.com ringernba to get started. FanDuel Official Partner of the NBA play your game 21 select states 18 DC, Kentucky or Wyoming gambling problem call 1-800- gambler call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut.

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[Justin Varior]

All right, let's talk about the other series still ongoing. I call this segment the Dylan Harper Jerk Fest 2026.

[Rob Mahoney]

Do we have to slash? Are you going to put that on a shirt? What's happening?

[Justin Varior]

That's in your contract actually. Okay, Rob, you actually, you wrote about him for the Ringer today. Would you like to take the first tug?

[Rob Mahoney]

No, no, I would not. I would make that very, very clear.

[Justin Varior]

Well, let me set you up this way, please, because I was trying to look at the special combination of things that Harper has put together this postseason because obviously as a rookie just playing out of his mind, having these moments in a way that few rookies do, just like rookies who are just like critical aspects of teams. But the fact that he's also doing this for a successful team at this, like even just this stage, getting deep into the second round, I think is unique for rookies but also coming off the bench. So like I said, he's not like a Jason Tatum or even like a Ben Simmons. When they first as rookies got into the second round, those guys were doing as starters and critical components, whereas Harper kind of just comes off the bench. And I was looking it up. There really aren't many comps in terms of points per game. So he's averaging 13.6 right now having played at least 10 games, which Harper has played 10 games right now. They're all starters in recent years except for Dan Marley, Charles Barkley and Tyler Herro in the bubble, who before everyone turned on him, had a fucking like nuts run in the playoffs. I think like hero's the only actual modern day comp for this, but like, it's just completely unique what he's doing at this point point.

[Rob Mahoney]

And even that felt so, so different. It was like, oh, this is really cool what Tyler, he was doing. He felt like such a gutsy shot maker in a way that we were all kind of recalibrating to in, in real time as it was happening. This is sort of like who Dylan Harper was expected to be. I mean, he was taken second overall. It's just all happened so quickly and kind of unimpeachably. That's the part that really gets me is like, there is no downside here. He just comes in. He's a flamethrower in terms of efficiency, barely. Like, I'm genuinely surprised when he misses certainly a layup, but really any shot at this point. And he gets downhill so easily relative to literally everybody else in the league. So you're talking about one of the great drivers that we have just in the NBA more broadly already. A defender who is 20 years old and coming in incredibly guarding Anthony Edwards and having the physicality to withstand a matchup like that. And also, by the way, like a plus rebounder for his position, a good, like, read and react playmaker. It's just the kind of thing where, like, I really don't know what the downside is supposed to be with his game. And when that's true and you're already this good and already this poised, I mean, here's what it was. If the spurs had won game four off of Dylan Harper's explosion after Wemby's ejection, everything would be going fucking bananas right now. But as it stands, we're gonna mute it slightly and only have Dylan Harper Jerk Fest 2026.

[Kyle Mann]

I mean, well, he was one of. It was widely talked about that he was maybe the best finishing prospect of the past 20 years in the paint for a. For a guard. I mean, it was, it was really. It was really. It was just. There was a strong case for that. And with no space. I'm a college team with no space. So we were kind of like, I think that's what's going on. I think that's going to translate. It did immediately. I said on Twitter last night. I think that I maybe said it during the young core thing. I think he's going to be the best finishing guard in the league very soon. If Not. I mean, the Shea stuff is interesting. He goes about it a little differently than Shay, I feel like, because Shea was. You know, I obviously watched it, asked

[Justin Varior]

you quickly, like, so Shay is, like, the current title holder, you would say?

[Kyle Mann]

I think so. I think so. I mean, Kyrie's the most creative, like, below the rim, but.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Sponsor Voice]

Yeah.

[Kyle Mann]

Well, I mean, what do you all think about that? I mean, Shea. I think Shea has to have the title. Is there another guy in the running for that?

[Rob Mahoney]

I guess it depends on how you want to define finishing. Like, is it strictly getting all the way to the basket, or are we including, like, the Jalen Brunson high paint triple pivot into a floater as a guard? Finishing like, that might be the only area that's at the rim a little bit.

[Kyle Mann]

At the rim, I mean, I guess. Yeah, at the rim.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think he is sensational. And he. I mean, he doesn't have the full range of what Kyrie can do, but Kyrie Irving also, very quietly has the sensational place, and then a lot where just because of his size, he gets stifled a little bit, has to throw up something wild that doesn't go in. Dylan Harper is, like, huge on these drives and physical in a way that's, like, really hard to stop and really hard to contain. That's a huge part of why he can just kind of lay it up so effortlessly.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah. I think maybe even guard is a tough thing to bring into it, because a 66 guy is so different than a 62. You know, it's. It's a very different conversation.

[Justin Varior]

Well, it's also that his. His ability to manipulate tempo and, like, timing also applies to the rim stuff, where the two biggest plays that he's had, both in the. The Blazer series and then. Then last night against. Against the Wolves, are those dunks that almost, like, come off timing, and they. It's like he. He explodes late, and all of a sudden he's at the rim, and he's also dunking it pretty authoritatively. And it's just like. It's such a weird combination because, I mean, if you've watched him in Kyle, you have for a very long time. It's just his ability to be a step ahead and manipulate that is like. I mean, harden comes to mind. I'm sure there's other guys, but it's. You're right. It's just something about him is like, as soon as he popped on the playoffs, like, it was like, okay, yeah, he's the guy. Like, he's. He's going to be pretty awesome going forward. And there. There really is tough to like find holes in like any sort of thing that might like prevent him from getting to that point. Am I missing anything?

[Kyle Mann]

No, I. I think there's. It's really interesting combination of the angularity, but then there. He doesn't lean on it as much as we were saying, as like a Kyrie does, because he doesn't have to. But he also has the incredible power and the footwork. I mean, he's. He has some like Marshawn lynch to the way that he gets in the paint too. It's just like through your effing face. Like he does that all the time. And I kind of think it segues into. There's been a funny arc. Funny to me because I bring it up over text, but there's been a funny arc of me joking about him being their second best player. To like, you get into the point where you're like, there is this conversation of I know Fox is more qualified to sort of hold the reins and sort of hand them to him. And not that it's literally they're in the same game, but you kind of wonder at some point if there's like a. Like when. When does the shift. Because I think he is their second best player. I personally think so. And. And I'm curious to get your all's opinion on that. But there does seem. He's never going to be. Wimpy's always going to be the center of that solar system. But Harper, by the day, there's a. There's a like, little. Little brother Kobe thing going on with this where it's just kind of like Kobe's coming. It's just a matter of time.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's getting more and more convincing. I mean, it's just so easy to imagine Dylan Harper as a top 10 player in the league given everything we've just described. Like, you can see the formula he would be filling to get there and how easily he seemingly could do it. As far as what's happening right now, I want to say a couple of things. One, I think what Castle gives you in terms of defense in particular is really, really special and a workload that Harper isn't really asked to fulfill on a nightly basis. And the one thing we really haven't seen from Harper is like, how he runs offense. Like he gets to come in and be the off speed pitch, be like honestly a pure scorer in a lot of situations. He doesn't have to organize people, doesn't have to get everything in place. It's just like be a buzzsaw, run through whoever's in front of you and score as efficiently as you possibly can. He does all of that stuff really, really well. I think Fox, look, he's had ups and downs in these playoffs, but the ups have been really, really important in terms of the way he's balancing the floor and all the threats for the spurs and finding Wemby in the right moments, but also picking his own right moments. There's some learning curve, stuff like that with Harper that we're just gonna have to see because he hasn't had a chance to do it. As far as like, who is their second best player, it's really hard to know. And it kind of changes from minute to minute. But the fact that Harper's even in that conversation is insane.

[Justin Varior]

Right. Their strength lies in that Castle. Fox Harper can have a moment at any moment. Right. And I still think that Fox still has that steadying, veteran hand quality to him. Because when I saw them in Portland, like when the records stopped and they needed something not just within the flow of this, which is typically how Harper and Castle kind of get theirs. Like they turned to Fox and Fox kind of shut the door. I think it was on game three. And so it's still nice to have that in hand. But you're right, it feels like he's just keeping the seat warm in order for Harper to get those reps at this point.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, part of the reason I think that seed warming feeling is so, like tangible right now is we talk all the time and we've talked all year about how different things get in your NBA life once you get scouted, right. Once you get that first, like you are a focus of the opposing defense. What does it take away from you? How does it change your world as a player? I really think Dylan Harper is going to be kind of like impervious to that stuff. And I say it for two reasons. One, I think in terms of just like going downhill. His drives are just like so good on an elemental level that make him so hard. It's just so hard to stay in front of him in a way that you could watch 300. Dylan Harper drives on tape. And it's not really going to help. You kind of shuffle along with that tempo and the changes and like how quickly he manipulates you and his body. I just don't think that's going to translate very well for defenses. I also think so long as you play on a team with Wemby, you will literally never be the top line. Of the scouting report. And so if he is a spur for the long term, Dylan Harper is going to get to enjoy, not anonymity, but a lot of COVID just from the fact that there is this like 74 dude out of the corner of your eye who is streaking towards the basket. And now guess what? You get a wide open drive because of it.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah, it's like, where does that stuff come from? It's like, you know, he had older brothers, dad played. It just makes you wonder if they're just kind of playing 21 together. And he's just at the basket a lot trying to figure out how to. Because, I mean, he. There's a lot of tape of him with like three or four, you know, people, defenders in the rim and he's like taking tiny steps.

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[Kyle Mann]

Find some angle that you're just like, whatever. I think all the stuff about like Castle and Fox, it definitely is fair. I think it's probably more of a question of just like this guy is, is such, such a talent. And then, you know, he. I think he's the. The wolves pushed back, you know, last night and I guess. Was it the third quarter or the fourth? I forget maybe the third quarter when that was when he had his big run and it was just so instrumental. But I think it's. I think it's all very fair and valid about like what he's being asked to do. You know, if you are an incendiary talent, you know, come in and just put the pedal to 120 for a few minutes and score. That's very different than steadying and offense. And those things are just something. He'll have to face the fires in that sense.

[Justin Varior]

So Rutgers didn't make the NCAA tournament two years ago, Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's crazy.

[Kyle Mann]

It's just like we've. No, they did not. They had two guys and.

[Justin Varior]

Well, did they literally have two guys in my question? Holy shit.

[Kyle Mann]

They spent. I think they spent their money on the top two guys. And then they had a bunch of like top 200 recruits and their roster was if I remember correctly, very largely freshmen that were like 200 level kind of recruits. So yeah, they were, they were. They were rough. There was. It's amazing he did what he did honestly. And I think that was probably what instilled so much confidence. They were like, okay, he did all that with no space. It's like, you know, so that's why it's like when we were talking about them playing the Blazers or whatever it is. And I think this speaks too to what you're talking about Rob, about being impervious. It's just pack the paint against him. Not gonna. He's gonna be dared to shoot at some point. Shooting's been a little better than I thought it would be. Honestly.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's been fine most of the time.

[Kyle Mann]

So.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, well, I bring up Rutgers in part because now I'm starting to reconsider like the trajectory. I think we were all like shooting the loads off. But even before this jerk fest you're

[Rob Mahoney]

really on one today.

[Kyle Mann]

This is a perfect. Not what we're doing.

[Rob Mahoney]

Pent up Justin barriers an incredibly different energy than we're used to into it. You know what? I'm not they're going to confirm nor tonight.

[Justin Varior]

Well, I mean I guess because I've been watching Harper this entire season. There's a lot to get out here and I do wonder like where is the ceiling? Like how high are we talking about? I was even starting to consider especially considering how mass perhaps he was at Rutgers. Like should it been more of a Flag versus Harper thing than we thought? Like, or was it always going to be flag no matter what? And even despite what Harper has done, Flag is still on a different level.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think he's on a different level but I would still default Cooper based off of just how widely useful his game is and the kind of plug and play context for literally anything. Like Harper is going to be an excellent ball handler, an excellent creator. You do want him to have that ball in his hands in featured in a very prominent role. Cooper I think could be that he could be a lot of other things and like that is tantalizing to me in a way where I would still lean flag. But I'm. I'm certainly agreed that that's a. That's a closer line than it was at draft time and we've certainly moved from the mid season. Like would the spurs have benefited from drafting con caniple conversation? Like I think we can put. We can Put that to bed, can't we?

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah, I think so. I mean in terms of his versatility, I think it's. It's not, it's. It definitely is worth mentioning that there was some worry about when they were talking about what. How's this going to work? How is Harper going to fit in with this group of guys? I personally didn't worry about it because I just feel like he was such a smart player and you know, it's not purely about is he going to just do catch and shoot stuff because of all the, all the stuff that he is impervious to. Like we were talking about like you just get to the rim no matter what. I, I still think that Cooper's value is so, you know, he can play every instrument in the band at a pretty good level in a way. And I was actually kind of thinking about this today where it's like there, there are as you zoom out about the, the value like what that does for an organization. I mean not just in, in the micro sense of. In a game, it's just like he can run any kind of action, but then in the macro sense of like just think about the way when you're trying to build around a star, it just really explodes your, your options in a way that I think makes him a pretty special player. So I'd, I'd still lean Cooper, but it's very. I hate doing the, the one or the other and the other one, you know, just falls through a trap door to the crocodiles, like kind of either or binary thing because it's like they're both just so good and the Western Conference is just, just hashtag blessed to have them both.

[Justin Varior]

Well, if you hate that, you're going to love this because I also want to talk about like where Harper would rank amongst like the past five drafts because I think we're at this point where I really have to say like if you're going to start from fresh with any of these guys coming into the league over the past five years, Wemby obviously number one with the bullet. Sounds like you guys are flag over Harper.

[Rob Mahoney]

I would.

[Justin Varior]

Yes. At that point gets a little tricky. We're talking Cade, we're talking Brandon Miller. Well, let's talking about.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's stop right there.

[Kyle Mann]

I think I, I think that's a. You would take Kate over Harper is what you're gonna say.

[Rob Mahoney]

I, I think Cade has, has earned that advantage. I think for me it's like a top three guys like Cade Cooper flag Victor Weyama based on a combination of what they've accomplished and clear, like, who they are as prospects. And that feels like the top tier for me. And then it's kind of up for grabs. I think as far as, like, it could be Dylan Harper and literally any of these other guys.

[Kyle Mann]

The Cade, Dylan Harper thing is interesting because in my mind I was just like, okay, like, ball screen chops. Cade was like, really great, but a lot of they haven't. They have, like, inverted kind of challenges where if Cade could. Would have been the finisher that Harper was, it'd be like, oh, my. Like, Harper is just so far ahead of him in some ways where I'm kind of. I got thinking about that and I was just like, you know, if someone was to put your life on the line and they were like, are you absolutely positive Dylan Harper is not going to be better than Cade? I couldn't say that. Like, I think it's very possible. Even if he doesn't become the same passer.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm certainly not positive. But, like, Kate Cunningham just put up 39 in a playoff game.

[Kyle Mann]

We're in the present, Rob. We're in the present. We have to acknowledge, like, yes, okay, yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Everyone else past Cade and Wemby, as far as, like, who has accomplished things right now, I think everyone else is like, okay, that's great, but Dylan Harper's ceiling could be as a top 10 player. And so it kind of nullifies a lot of those arguments. Cade's already a top 10 player. He might climb even higher. He might continue to get better. We may not have even seen his best because of all the spacing considerations that we just talked about in this game with the Cavs. So he's. He's having to carry and do a lot in a way that Dylan Harper is not. And so until we see that part of Dylan, I'm just going to, like, pump the brakes ever so slightly as to whether he could do the kinds of things that Kade Cunningham is currently doing.

[Justin Varior]

Well, I'd like to take my foot off the break at this point because you're right. Like, even though Harper hasn't had to show it at, like, the highest levels, being the number one and all that other stuff, like, Cade benefits from the fact that, like, we've seen him go through four years and be able to be seasoned. And so we have, like, the present tense of who he can become. And obviously the size is a big consideration. Like, Kate is like power forward size. And you see how much that's an advantage on the defensive end. We haven't seen Harper ply his trade on defense for that amount of time as well. But like, there's something about like just his control and manipulation of whatever's thrown at him with Harper that I feel like Cade is doing it from a much more like programmed sense and Harper is doing it much more innately and almost as an extension of like just everything that he's going on. And I just don't know how to teach that. And so like that really feels to be the distinguishing thing. If he could Translate that to 35 minutes a game in a playoff game, like, I think he's got it. I think like he would probably be number three here with a bullet.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think he would be just an unbelievable player. But to be honest, the best versions of Dylan Harper are going to have that organic thing you're talking about Justin, but also some of the methodical Cade stuff. Like that's kind of what you need to be just a, like a God tier playmaker in the NBA. If you're the kind of kind of star who ushers a team through multiple rounds basically every year, that's what the pedigree looks like is you have both sides of that coin and you can kind of toggle between them in terms of running system versus just like making things happen. He's got all the making things happen stuff down. And we're going to see on the other parts, I think probably sooner than a lot of people anticipated as far as what it looks like when he really runs the show. But I, I think for me the only other guy, like here's kind of the next tier of players that I was considering. And Justin, sorry you started kind of going down this road. I didn't mean to, to derail your list list, but J Dub is obviously kind of in this next group as well. Jaylen Johnson, Scotty Barnes, Mobley Paolo Franz, Austin Reeves, Seth Castle. I think also, you know, who's to say he doesn't end up as the better of the two guards? Maybe it'll turn out that way. The one person I'm kind of tempted to put above Dylan Harper is Chad. And that's because he's. He already is like a defensive player of the year caliber guy whose offensive game is ever expanding. And that archetype is so distinctly valuable in the same way that that Dylan Harper being the kind of guard who drives an offense is so valuable.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah, the kind of like dynamic application of, of Chet on defense is so, so valuable and gets, you know, and, and the offensive stuff is very, very good. It's like you kind of. Those two things balance together, I think keep him at the top and he's won a title and things like that. I was going to say I think Kate and Dylan are like the same size basically, right. I. If they're off by an inch, it's, it's like. I think if they're off it's like by an inch. And I think Dylan's like center of gravity almost and creates this deceptive size thing like where you can't quite tell. Yeah, like he, he. And also another thing that I was going to say, and this is something that comes up a lot in this is. This is like rampant in basketball over the past is one of the big developmental, just like arguments discussions over the past decade is, is the role of like reps versus like organic reps versus training. And some guys have like trainer brain. I'm not saying that Cade has it, but I think you did hit on something with the like improv in, you know, improvisational footwork. Dylan is elite. I mean, I don't know if I say like God tier, but his feet are so comfortable improvising. Where some guys are like, these are my steps that I do this, I do this. I just kind of. It can almost be robotic. And Dylan is like organic. Like he, like he's not plagued by that at all.

[Rob Mahoney]

Since you're at the combine, Kyle, or recently returned from the combine, are we measuring torso length? Are we measuring like where there's a lot as far as, you know, the center of gravity goes with guys like this.

[Kyle Mann]

There's so many things, you know, we're talking about vert and max vert. To answer your question, before I get into my. There, there is a second gym that is proprietary data that I don't think people realize this. We're just seeing like the front facing data and testing and things like that. But there's a second gym. There's a whole lot of the, the biomechanic stuff is going on and that stuff does. I've talked about it a lot on our draft show. I've written about it and things like that. They're like third party kind of gyms that do that kind of stuff Quickly though here like people talk a lot about like vert and max vert and things like that. You could have like a 45 inch vertical, but if you have to like load to get to it versus a guy who has like a 39 inch vertical who can do it without bending his knees, they're just very different things. I just was noticing people kind of like fanning themselves like Southern belles, about like a 42 inch. It's just like they're very. They're different things. You kind of have to. There's a lot of just like, nuance in measurements. I think that goes unnoticed at times. And like, what separates dudes.

[Justin Varior]

Definitely didn't think you get all that detail, did you, Rob?

[Rob Mahoney]

That's why I came to Kyle for it. But also, if someone wants to chop up this show in which we're talking about the Dylan Harper jerk fest, like the number of times one of us has said load or explode or like, we're just really tempting fate with all of this stuff.

[Justin Varior]

Harper in this draft goes one. Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I think.

[Justin Varior]

I think Cooper didn't play this year even. What's that?

[Kyle Mann]

No.

[Rob Mahoney]

In the upcoming draft. Yes. Well, I mean, I don't know anything about these players, so I can't really speak to that.

[Kyle Mann]

It'd be pretty. There'd be an argument, I think, like, if Peterson were healthy. That's a whole other can of worms. But I mean, like, Peterson's pretty special. In a similar way, I will say this. There is not a. For us, we gotta turn here. There's not a downhill. I mean. Yeah. Put your money where your mouth. I mean, he's a generational, like, finishing guard. If. If he's the best finisher in the NBA, like arguably as a guard within the next year. Yeah. It would stand a reason that there's nobody in this class. We'd have to be very fortunate that there was another guy coming up as good as him. So he'd be the best driver. I think he'd have an argument for number one for sure. Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

All right, well, since we're on the subject here, do you want to regale us from. With tales from your combine experience? Like, what's. What's the latest, like, big thing going down there? Is it AJ versus Darren Peterson? Is there like a riser that you're into? What's like, draft wise, like, what's the big thing you came away with that weekend from?

[Kyle Mann]

I think there. There's an interesting philosophical sort of division going on where the people who run models and look at this purely from. And even the. In the combine results I think fed into some of this too, is that there is still a pretty big. And whether or not this is like the infowars are on kind of thing, like the. The waters that we thought weren't murky because there was a real consensus. AJ thing going on that I'm sure you all caught Wind of it's like, well, it's going to be A.J. i think that a lot of the models people and analytics people are just kind of like, hey, man, like, Cam is like, kind of can't miss. And so for all of the. The conversation about, like, Darren has these problems. There are people who have concerns about AJ I'm one of them. I've written about them and talked about them. There is that thing going on. And then I had an interesting conversation with somebody where we were talking about, you know, will the Jazz, because we talked about the obvious thing is the trade possibilities that the Jazz could have with the, with the Wizards or the Wizards could squeak out some more assets. I kind of got the impression that the Jazz are. I'm not saying this is like, report this or whatever, but it's not a given that they're going to be beholden to. Like, we're just, we spent all this time like, trying to line up the stars aligned to get AJ because it would be. When I got thinking about it, I was like, it would have been pretty short sighted of them to like, put themselves in the position to be so compromised, like, leverage wise to be like, we have to have AJ and complete this thing because it's so possible, it's so difficult to get the number one pick. Like, why would you put yourself in that position of not considering that until the very, very end? So I think they're prepared for that and they like Darren Peterson a lot, from what I understand, because, like, we've talked about, he just slots right into that team. I think they're going to be fun immediately. So that's like the top tier stuff that was going on.

[Rob Mahoney]

I know this stuff never boils down to, like, any kind of justice or karmic balance or literally any kind of anyone deserving anything as far as who lands where in the draft. But after seeing the Jazz just kind of like whiff on both probabilities and some of their picks to get them to a place where they're finally at least getting a prospect who looks and feels like a star feels like a turning of a corner in a way that just as someone who has, like, been watching this team and waiting for them to take a step forward, I really appreciate, like, Keonte George becoming Keonte George is wonderful. But them getting someone like Darren Peterson after they were hoping for Cooper, flag, after they were hoping for Dylan Harper, if they're hoping for, you know, just a long line of guys, and now they at least will finally get somebody who feels like he's Going to accelerate their, their current timeline, but also fit that star mold as far as what they've been looking for is, is nice.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah. It only took three separate tanks in order to finally get to this position.

[Rob Mahoney]

Saying like it's, it's a long term project and I'm glad it might be finally coming to an end.

[Justin Varior]

Lowry Markkanen is like 50 and just barely getting by. He's on. He's getting those AARP cards all of a sudden and still asking him to roll out there and be at a critical component. Go ahead, Kyle.

[Kyle Mann]

It'll be nice to see him play basketball. Much less important basketball. I think they. That he will. But the, I mean, the measurements came in, you know, as much as I was just kind of like poking fun at the vert stuff, but. And you can also game max vert. I don't know if you're really with standing reach. You can go down that rabbit hole

[Rob Mahoney]

on your own, but because slump a little bit when you do the original measurement.

[Kyle Mann]

I mean. Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

Wait, is that actually what you're saying?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, you can actually do that.

[Justin Varior]

People undersell it. Why?

[Kyle Mann]

I think people said Reed shepherd did it last year. I heard because he. It was such a. I mean, you want that pretty max vert number. It's a sexy thing.

[Rob Mahoney]

Then the vert looks awesome.

[Justin Varior]

Oh, you're saying oversell it as opposed to. I thought you were saying undersell it. Almost like a height situation. So you could say you're less than what you actually are.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, you undersell your height so that when you measure your max vert, it looks like you jumped higher.

[Justin Varior]

Jesus. I retook geometry.

[Kyle Mann]

This one's not that hard, though. Well, I was going to say Darren Peterson came in with good size. Barefooted. Why we measure barefooted. That's a whole argument. But six, four and a half with a six pushing six ten wingspan for a guard with his build. I mean, that's, that's pretty good. I mean. And then AJ AJ Debanza, you know, measured out really well. Kim Boozer measured out that he was as fast as, as Caleb Wilson. The, the, the darling athlete.

[Justin Varior]

So doing the little cone drill.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, that side by side was fascinating. I could watch that on loop just watching those like the, the margin, like fraction of an inch that Cam Boozer gains at various points in the shuttle drill. Wild.

[Justin Varior]

But is that because Caleb Wilson doesn't have the same like, economy of movement? And can you like learn that over time sort of thing or is that not the case?

[Kyle Mann]

I wrote about this in his profile. Like Caleb has a lot of things to tighten and like in dial in with his, his defensive technique stuff, because I really think when I watch him, I think this is the exact wording that I use, which just. He looks like somebody who throughout his basketball life has what used his superpower in a way where he just waits till he waits until a problem gets to a certain stage and he's like, I'm just going to use my superpower. He doesn't really do work early and things like that. So technique and things like that. Boozer is just very tight on that. And then if you look at the way that their bodies move, Boozer just kind of has it. Like if you compare them to cars, he just kind of has like a tighter suspension. Like, he just kind of would corner tighter, if you know what I mean. So. And Caleb is still getting stronger, and I think that those things are going to get better for him. He also just has more like corrective ability, like in a way that Cam doesn't. You know, you could, you can beat Cam off the dribble, he can shuttle and things like that, but he's never going to like, make an out of area play the way that Caleb Wilson is. So it's kind of like the other thing too, with the, with the, the shuttle thing. You can't cross your feet. It was funny to watch how many guys had to like, start over on that one. It's pretty. It's pretty. That's a pretty tough thing to do to do.

[Justin Varior]

They like stop you in the middle of it and they're like, you can't do that.

[Kyle Mann]

They like, yep, fucked up. Like, gotta start over. Yeah, that happened several times as I was sitting there.

[Rob Mahoney]

Speaking of crossing your feet, I don't know if the two of you happened to see our colleague Joel Anderson get absolutely roasted going one on one on a football. Like wide receiver versus corner versus Tate. Incredible clip. I highly recommend everyone should see it. Maybe we can drop it in here. But, but should we be running the combine is what I'm saying. Should we get our measurements done? Should we go out there shuttling and see how we do? Should, should we put ourselves to the test if we're going to be criticizing all these guys?

[Justin Varior]

Any opportunity to cook you dweebs, I,

[Kyle Mann]

I would, I would love.

[Justin Varior]

Catch me on a, on a straight line. Run like I'm gone, baby, like the wind.

[Rob Mahoney]

See, I don't know that that's true. I think you've got gardeners back at this point. Like, if you, if I ask you to stand up too quickly. I think it's going to get real creaky real fast.

[Kyle Mann]

I was watching them do the Max vert thing where they, like, start one way and kind of, you know, you twist as you're jumping. And I was like, I just don't even. I don't. I'd be afraid to do the combine test because Jeff Teague was doing it when I showed up, like, as a. Just a social media event, I guess, because Tristan Jass was doing it too. And anyway, I was just like, I feel like risk for injury past a certain age. You just shouldn't be doing the combine. Like, you shouldn't be going from zero to 60 sprint. You shouldn't be. You know, I even have the conversation with myself. I'm just. Because I don't jump anymore. Like, if a ball gets stuck or something like that, I'm like, I just don't. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do the full exertion. You're just courting disaster. So to answer your question, I don't think I'm going to do the combine. Not for embarrassment, but the risk is just too huge. I'm just. I don't think I'm going to do it. Rob, I encourage you to if you want to.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I think if we do it for the pod and something happens, which something probably would happen. Do we not have a workers comp claim at that point? Is there not some paperwork we can file?

[Kyle Mann]

We're on really record talking about it beforehand.

[Justin Varior]

So, yeah, maybe as we're having Converse ever. As we're having this conversation, like, I was thinking about the last time I got up from a chair and didn't make a noise. I'm like, well, it's been a couple years actually, so maybe, maybe, maybe not.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, they're getting more. The groans are getting more and more egregious around here. I'm not gonna lie with or lie to you, but I still think we could not completely embarrass ourselves relative to each other. Right. If you don't compare us to anyone but ourselves, I think we'll look like, I don't know, three mostly out of shape white dudes shuttling around.

[Kyle Mann]

I'm not changing my opinion based on any of this. Like, you know, I thought I was over here.

[Justin Varior]

I'm actually.

[Kyle Mann]

Oh, my God, my frame rate must be off. You're moving.

[Rob Mahoney]

So

[Kyle Mann]

I'm daunted.

[Justin Varior]

Anything else from the combine?

[Kyle Mann]

Oh, I mean, the other. The only other thing that we were, you know, talking about was just. We're getting to the point where I'm wondering if we're. We even need a second round. I'd always. I like in terms of the broadcast,

[Rob Mahoney]

make sure I'm hearing this directly. Abolish part of the draft.

[Kyle Mann]

I knew this would just tea. This would just be a lot alley oop to you. If you would like, you can feel free to cook, Rob, but I'd prefer

[Rob Mahoney]

if you cook on my behalf. And I just sit here nodding solemnly.

[Kyle Mann]

They're just very different. It's. They're different. It's apples to onions. It's not. They're just totally different things. Like we're talking about like lottery odds and all that. This is like the talent pool is just decimated. I mean, I. I heard conversations about guys withdrawing. Like it's crept all the way up to like 14 range. Guys might go back so. Because the money's crazy. I'm hearing about numbers like 8, 9 million dollars for college guys for single seasons. Like it's. It is bonkers bananas out there. So I mean, there's that aspect of it. It's for the broadcast. It's just going to make for awful tv. And the other thing that, that I was hearing it too is just that because the agents basically are running the second round, as I understand it now. And it's probably been that for way you were saying, you think it's been that way for a little while now, especially with the talent deprivation. I'm just kind of like, why don't we just go first round and then it's just open season after that. Like it's just kind of free agency. Because if players aren't going to like, negotiate with. When you look. When you look at an order, basically, is what I'm saying for people who like, follow the draft, that order means nothing to like the quality of the player. It's just like they knew they could get a deal done with that guy at 31 or whatever it is.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah. I think two things are happening simultaneously here, Rob, where I think nil is creeping into the NBA draft in a way that seems like it's taken a big old chunk out of the potential prospects there. And so if it's getting to the point where the back half of the first round is kind of impacted by this, then all of a sudden, like the math for trading and all this other stuff becomes way more complicated. Because you've seen good teams or even like bad teams stock up on future picks, end up in the 20s, but they've able to Compile just like guys to the back end of the ROT rotation. That becomes a dicier proposition. That's happening in college. Right. But in the NBA they're basically saying well flattened odds, new second apron actually developing through your pipeline is a much bigger like a component of what you're going to do. We saw that with the Thunder. We just talked about Dennis Jenkins like we've talked about depth for like two straight years now and the importance of it. But you're basically saying like okay, build through the draft but also the back end of the draft and perhaps the entire second round isn't all that valuable. So like I don't know how to square the two things.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's a lot of pressure to put on those teams developmental complexes when the talent level is just going to be I think overall kind of depressed. Right. When you think about who would have been coming out in the NBA draft in general versus who can be coaxed back for one more year for $5 million like we're talking about Yoxel Landenborg in last year's draft as I mean Kyle. Where was he projected then? Would he have been like a late mid to late first maybe?

[Kyle Mann]

Well it depends on whose board it was. You know, I mean I, I wanted him. I think I had him as high as like we were disagreed about this. I can't, I think it was like high teens. But anyway he yes that I think he was probably gonna get taken in the first round in my opinion. But for him it was like jump up half the half the round. So it made sense for him for sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

And he took what basically at least some of the owners I've seen for him are like the NBA equivalent salary of being like the 10th or 12th pick or something like that in terms of what it took like took to get him to Michigan. So. So those guys are going to be off the board. The second rounders we're talking about are going to be completely diminished. I'm left wondering too like so long as the second round does exist until some more dramatic measure is taken, should any of this change the way teams think about the picks that they do have? Like is there a type of player who you would now be more open to taking in the second round who you wouldn't be before? Whether that's on like the very raw. We're just going to take even more project oriented prospects out of the gate or maybe it starts ends up favoring like if guys do get coaxed back year upon year with the money that's in nil like, you know, a graduating senior is all of a sudden a more appealing player just because of the way the pool has shaken out and who is not there at this point.

[Kyle Mann]

I think that's the counter to what we're saying here about like, the lack of. It really has. I mean, NBA. NBA teams are like, you know, we'd love to have a player for as much of their prime as possible. Obviously, if they're young and they're a good player, like. Like it's minimizing risk, I think, for them in a way where if guys are going back, you know, we lost this chasm of dudes just jumping just to get taken in the second round. Nil has kind of solved a lot of that. But I also think that it has opened the door to. I mean, have you guys heard this, like pre draft. That's kind of a term that's been thrown around the past couple of years. And I think there's a couple. There's one guy on Kentucky, I think this is potentially Malachi Moreno is this kid who people kind of think that he's going to be good in a year or so, like that he's going to be a prospect.

[Justin Varior]

Drafting based on. Solely off of potential even beyond what happens in the first round.

[Kyle Mann]

Basically, it's. It's taking a gamble. Like Chris and ak. Another guy from Houston is a dude who could fall in this category of. If you look at them and you feel good about, you know, if you're a good team, like you're the Lakers or you're the somebody that's in the playoffs, you might take a swing on a guy who's not really ready right now, but you would take him a little bit early. Like he's not going to play. Like, literally, like this isn't. Like this dude's not ready. He's like, we're. You're coming into our developmental system, but it's kind of finding a sweet spot of players who want to take less money to do something like that. Maybe just the allure of getting a contract, getting into the NBA, I think it's opened the door for that. So it's a twofold thing. But I also think that it's, it's, it's. It's created more stable prospects. So that's kind of the answer to, to like the. It taking a bite out of the first round. So, you know, those two things.

[Justin Varior]

It's interesting because just in the NFL draft, I think this guy who's never played football before but is built like Miles Garrett, he's just like, absolutely just like an Adonis. Like, fucking rippling huge, man. He got drafted in the seventh round just based off of his physicality and

[Rob Mahoney]

just how he looks.

[Justin Varior]

He's never played football.

[Kyle Mann]

Combine measurements and everything. Like, we're good.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, I guess if he went to the combine. But like, you. You put him side by side and like, this guy looks like the best football player in the world if you've never seen him actually play football. So perhaps that's the future of the NBA you're pre drafting so far. You're just getting a bunch of, like, studs off of Venice beach and be like, let's go.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think this is the way it should work. It's kind of hard to believe that the NFL is a real sports league when shit like that happens. He's literally never played any organized football.

[Justin Varior]

That's my understanding. But they've also had cases where guys who are just playing basketball and then all rugby. Yeah, that sort of stuff happening. I mean, just more seriously, though, I do wonder if it's an opportunity for the international market to start to creep back in and perhaps take over large elements of the draft in the way that it used to be in the past, whereas now, definitely more blended in. If anything, it seems like there are fewer guys coming through that pipeline before going to college.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's the thing.

[Kyle Mann]

They all play for Illinois.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, well, a lot of the money. I mean, when you think about overseas salaries, like, you can make a decent penny playing in a bunch of different places around the world these days, but the numbers that are being thrown out for elite prospects in for nil is more than a lot of guys make internationally. It's not like quite the piggy bank that you might imagine it to be.

[Justin Varior]

Plus, you don't have to Emmanuel Moodya, like, spend a couple months in China and just be a complete fish out of water when you're like, like 18 years old. Well, it's interesting because, like, the NBA still, it feels like, has aspirations to becoming like, a legitimate feeder system where their G League team feeds the big one. And there's more of, like, that soccer style, perhaps not soccer, like, because they start those guys super young, but at the very least, like a minor league baseball equivalent. And they kind of got undercut by college. They had the first move by paying these guys and sending them to ignite. But then college comes back and, like, they offer not only the money, but, like, being a big swinging dick on a college campus when you're 18, 19 years old is probably Incredibly sick. And as we've seen, to use football as an example again, like there's just like a certainty there where you could take a big sum of money and also just like, like know that you're going to cash that and be valuable there. Whereas like the NBA is still a risk. Like it would be like if you're just going to natural college and like all of a sudden you only spent two years because you wanted to fall immediately to your career. It's just like there's like a lot of still like nice things in college and if you're, they're going to pay you well to still be there, there's that attractiveness. But I guess, long story, like, I don't know, like it still feels like a feeder system would be advantageous in the NBA, like for the Thunder, how they used to use the blue to go up and down and like actually like, like work off of each other. Sure. I just don't know how it happens now because college just has such an appeal.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I think a lot of those two way spots have taken the guys who otherwise would have been kind of like signed and kicked back between the two teams through like less official means or less organized means. So it's still there. Like some NBA clubs are better about that stuff than others. They're more streamlined than others. They understand how to like synergize the offenses so that there's at least like a feel that's kind of similar or they're testing for the right things. But it's hard like there, there just isn't an easy way in a rights oriented prospect landscape with something like the draft to also have a proper feeder system because you don't get to pick the young guys who come through. It's just like whoever can you scoop up who isn't already obligated to one team internationally or one team in college or you know, if someone else isn't already on their rights. It's just a more complicated system based

[Kyle Mann]

on the way it's changed in the last year. When I think about what you're talking about, like the, the way the feeder systems are set up, in my, in my gut, I think, you know, there's no way we could ever get to the point where we have like a Real Madrid type situation where a dude gets on with a club and there's like a feeder system, there's a vertical that goes all the way from, okay, you're like going literally going to like elementary school school up, all the way up through like college age and it's like, I, I, I just, I don't want to rule it out just because of how wild things have gotten. You know, I was talking with somebody about eventually, is there going to be a world where universities are just sort of attached to, you know, a certain franchise? I don't know, doing the, like, 30 teams to picking 30 universities, that feels a little clunky. I don't know how they would figure that out. But I think what, everything that we're saying here, I think, is kind of circling the idea that, like, major reform is probably going to come. And I don't, you know, it's, you know, including. But it could include the second, second round. It could include, like, the, the feeder systems. It feels like everything's on the table for me because, because it seems like the system needs a lot of, like, recalibration now that the college is basically like, it's not a feeding system anymore. I mean, it's, it's like a competing. Has that changed for you all in terms of, like, is it like a legitimate competitor or, or is it still

[Rob Mahoney]

just Little brother, A competitor? In what sense?

[Kyle Mann]

The product. I mean, a lot of money goes through college.

[Rob Mahoney]

A lot of people see that, and it's so crazy. There isn't a draft to pick, like, where the prospects go play in college. They just get to choose wherever they want to go for money.

[Kyle Mann]

I think that's where I'll just go ahead and stop.

[Rob Mahoney]

Interesting. Yeah, very interesting. It seems like it's working great. I have no problems with anything in that system.

[Kyle Mann]

You're very happy smugly about where this is going to land for you, Rob. I can tell.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I think here's the thing about any change that's coming in the NBA. It is distant despite all the, like, everything that's changing under the league's feet in real time right now that we're talking about. The NBA is still a league that wants to commission a study to potentially consider maybe making a change way down the line. And we're still trying to understand what this stuff even means. And so let's, I think we might have to see, like, in two years. Does it still feel this way, or has the landscape shifted enough where there's some other variable, there's some other unintended consequence, there's another, you know, bubble of prospects who, for whatever reason, are being lured back into college or lured into the NBA? We have no idea what any of this means yet, but trying to figure it out as these teams do, I mean, it's, it feels dramatic. Right now, in this moment for sure.

[Justin Varior]

Well, luckily, Adam Silver is on NBA Twitter for hours a day just looking for new opportunities. I don't know if you guys saw that little tidbit from the Atlantic. Atlantic story.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, he's. He's just scrolling your tweets.

[Justin Varior]

Mine specifically. But if you're on NBA Twitter, Adam Silver is aware, apparently.

[Rob Mahoney]

So if we want change, we need to commission some kind of bot army to just like get takes. Get takes out there on the draft

[Kyle Mann]

or whatever shit gets done, man. We know it's tried and true. Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

Y' all hear about Clippers? I just learned about this. Not the Los Angeles Clippers, but like Clippers for like making things go viral.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, sure. Yes. Yeah, Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

I just like the Mr. Beast has just his army of like 10 year olds just like pumping the virality machine. We need that. That's our key to really hitting it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Why do we need an army of 10 year olds when we have Isaiah and Victoria right here pumping out clips

[Kyle Mann]

for us and you just can't help yourself. You had to use a phrase like pumping the virality machine, and that's just like,

[Justin Varior]

it was unintentional. I'm telling you, these kids are working the system. We're. We're playing a corrupt game is what I'm saying.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, they're all corrupt games, unfortunately. They've always been corrupt games. But we're finding new and new and exciting ways to exploit literally everything. So I look forward to seeing where that goes with the draft too.

[Justin Varior]

I want to, I want to go out on this. Since we're talking about an NBA Twitter. I literally just pulled this from, from Twitter. Charles Barkley talking about Max Streuss. That's a pretty man. He's a good looking man. I would not look him dead in the eyes. Let's go.

[Rob Mahoney]

I would not look him dead in the eyes. I. I mean, I think you should get that, put on a shirt and just, you know, at the bottom for the quote attribution, like Charles Barkley about Max Drew in parentheses, who looks a lot like me, I think.

[Justin Varior]

Like the Klay Thompson, like, guy who walked around and got into NBA arenas looking like clay. I wonder if I could be that guy for Max Druce.

[Rob Mahoney]

I want to make this very clear. You could 100% pull it off. Like you could walk into the bowels of an arena if you were in full uniform as Max Drew.

[Kyle Mann]

We should. This is a video opportunity, so I think we need to do this for sure.

[Justin Varior]

Just need to get a wig. Just start brushing my locks before I go to bed every night or start growing it out.

[Kyle Mann]

We'll do it next season.

[Rob Mahoney]

There we go.

[Justin Varior]

All right. That's the podcast. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Monday as per usual. We'll talk to you then. 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas, Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-87-7-8, HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York, Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.