How Far Can the Spurs Go This Season? Plus, the Mighty Trail Blazers, Ja Morant’s Future, and More

Summary

The Ringer NBA Show: "How Far Can the Spurs Go This Season? Plus, the Mighty Trail Blazers, Ja Morant’s Future, and More"

Date: November 3, 2025
Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, Kyle Mann

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode of "Group Chat" on The Ringer NBA Show takes a deep dive into:

• The early (and perhaps overzealous) hype around the surging San Antonio Spurs led by Victor Wembanyama
• Tactical analysis of their humbling loss to the Suns
• The woes and bleak outlook in New Orleans with the 0-6 Pelicans
• A focused discussion on Ja Morant’s troubling relationship with the Grizzlies and his uncertain market value
• An in-depth look at the unexpectedly tough Portland Trail Blazers The hosts blend sharp analysis, irreverent humor, and plenty of NBA insider detail across a packed show.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS AND INSIGHTS

1. San Antonio Spurs—Hype Check and Growing Pains

[02:44]-[05:54]

• The hosts dissect the Spurs’ “come to earth moment” after a 6-0 run is snapped by a blowout loss to the Suns.
• The game was a “reality check” for anyone believing the Spurs are already top contenders; they’re still firmly in a development year.
• On Victor Wembanyama:
  • Teams are now taking Wemby seriously; the Suns’ double-teams and crowding disrupted him.
  • “Wemby is not catching anyone by surprise at this point. This was the most bothered I think we’ve seen him in any game this season.” — Kyle Mann [03:23]
  • Young Spurs are still learning how to play off Wemby and counter elite, playoff-style defensive schemes.
  • Wemby “can be sped up, pushed off his spot ... he may look like an unstoppable force on some nights, but he is but a mere player, Justin.” — Mann [05:24]
• Loss of key contributors (like Dylan Harper due to injury) exposed depth and cohesion issues.
• Suns’ physical, veteran wings and Devin Booker's irritant persona flustered the young Spurs, exposing lack of emotional composure.
  • “This is overall an extremely young team that can get lured into those sorts of pissing contests.” — Verrier [06:56]

Notable Moment:

• Stefan Castle racks up three fouls and gets into tech-inciting shoving matches, a "real young team stuff” moment.

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2. Injuries, Role Players, and Team Dynamics

[08:14]-[13:51]

• Dylan Harper's early season impresses (“slinkiest drivers in the league” per Mann [08:53]), but his calf injury stings; Fox’s absence as steadying force is noted.
• Devin Vassell’s evolving but still inconsistent role; lack of a true secondary star is magnified.
• Spurs’ defensive dominance with Wemby and (when healthy) Luke Kornet, but depth issues without them explored.
• “With Wemby on the floor, they are astoundingly good on defense ... all-time exceptional levels” — Mann [13:16]

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3. Where Do the Spurs Stand in the West’s Chaos?

[13:51]-[16:10]

• The West is wide open with heavyweights struggling (Nuggets, Warriors, Clippers, Wolves, etc.).
• “Spurs seem very much, dare I say, in the mix for the top six.” — Verrier [14:38]
• The hosts see the Spurs as having moved out of "play-in fodder," but urge caution after the blowout by Phoenix.

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4. Bad Vibes in the West: Warriors & Pelicans

[17:34]-[27:53]

Warriors:

• “Draymond Green ... is so annoying. ... He's a tough watch.” — Verrier [17:41]
• Steph Curry’s patience with Draymond’s antics discussed.
• West's top teams "are having to do their soul searching pretty early in the year ... an opportunity for the Spurs.” — Mann [15:09]

Pelicans:

• Pelicans are branded a “disaster in every possible respect” after three 30+ point losses in six games.
• “Not only half their games, just in half of the 30 point losses in the entire NBA this season belong to the New Orleans Pelicans.” — Mann [19:24]
• “Zion looks like he would rather be anywhere else than participating with this team at this time. ... They cannot guard literally anybody.” — Mann [20:10]
• The Pelicans’ asset mismanagement is skewered—trading away lottery picks for Derek Queen, who barely plays.
• Trey Murphy is one of few bright spots, but is slipping into “Breaking Bad” mode: “What did you expect me to roll over and die?” [26:19]
• Pelicans’ -18 point differential is the NBA’s worst. “The Pelicans are better at being bad than the best teams are at being good.” — Mann [27:15]
• “Never trust the Pelicans.” — Mann [27:53]

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5. Ja Morant & the Grizzlies: Suspensions, Drama, and Trade Value

[30:10]-[64:44]

• Ja Morant is suspended for “malicious compliance” and publicly sulking—accused of “quiet quitting” during a recent game.
  • “It really is a unique thing to see a star float for an entire half and not once break the three point line, not once take an active step on defense.” — Mann [30:27]
  • "He has lost all benefit of the doubt, at least with the public." — Verrier [38:33]
• Discussion traces the evolution of Ja’s game from passing-focused floor-raiser to iso-first star, and how that clashes with his current limitations (size, shooting, injuries).
• “He has made one All-NBA team. He’s made two All-Star teams in his entire career. He has won a single playoff series. ... What ground does he have to stand on?” — Mann [38:04]
• Grizzlies’ patient but “bending over backwards” approach to Ja is wearing thin; the suspension may be an inflection point.
• Ja’s trade market is debated:
  • “This event is just so terrible because ... the market’s going to be tough. ... Jaws’ number one [trade candidate on Fanspo].” — Mahoney [46:14]
  • Milwaukee, Phoenix, Miami, Toronto, Sacramento, Houston, Brooklyn, Portland, and Minnesota discussed as possible but mostly unappealing or risky destinations.
  • “It’s hard to be a serious team and want John Morant the leader ... and even be a rebuilding team and want him guiding your young guards along.” — Mann [59:06]
• “How many turning points does a guy get? ... How many opportunities does he have to have accountability?” — Mann [64:04]
• The segment connects Ja’s arc to a “sped-up” Allen Iverson trajectory and questions the concept of superstar-driven franchises in the current NBA context.

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6. Portland Trail Blazers — The “Mighty” Blazers and Their Blueprint

[65:12]-[80:54]

• The show ends with an enthusiastic look at the surging Blazers, particularly their defensive identity and wing depth.
• “They look absolutely ferocious defensively ... They’ve just got something.” — Mann [65:52]
• Despite drafting centers, it’s the “smallball” wing lineups that form Portland’s identity. Credit to Kamaru Usman, Deni Avdija, and Drew Holiday (“a fucking brick out there” [73:11]) for their toughness.
• “Their best lineups ... are these smallball lineups where they're just putting a bunch of wings guarding the full length of the floor.” — Verrier [66:28]
• Chris Murray and other “fringy” wings shine. The listless starters are often outplayed by energetic, defensive second units.
• On Drew Holiday: “He just has this steadying presence ... so calm in chaos.” — Verrier [75:00]
• Some skepticism or caution about Jeremy Grant (“He woke up from a two-year-long nap.” — Mann [76:38]) and the sustainability of their transition-heavy offense.
• Blazers’ depth could be tested if injuries hit again; backcourt already looks thin after losing Matisse Thybulle and other reserves.
• “They're leading the league in threes generated in transition ... depending on that as flex-seal.” — Mahoney [79:58]
• “You really need to be two-deep to make this all work ... I worry that they just might not have that.” — Verrier [78:52]

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MEMORABLE QUOTES & MOMENTS

• “[Wemby] may look like an unstoppable force on some nights, but he is but a mere player, Justin.” — Mann [05:24]
• “It's real young team stuff that you don't want to see from your super sharp title contender.” — Verrier [07:05]
• “[Pelicans:] The worst shooting team in basketball ... they're better at being bad than the best teams are at being good.” — Mann [19:24, 27:15]
• “Ja Morant, if you're the alleged leader of a team ... what ground does he have to stand on ... dictating terms in terms of what doesn't frustrate me in this moment?” — Mann [38:04]
• “How many turning points does a guy get? ... How many opportunities does he have to have accountability?” — Mann [64:04]
• “It’s baffling to watch Jeremy Grant, NBA center, kind of work.” — Mann [68:46]
• “He just has this steadying presence ... so calm in chaos.” — Verrier on Jrue Holiday [75:00]

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TIMESTAMPS FOR MAJOR SEGMENTS

| Segment | Start | Key Topics Covered | |-----------------------------|----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | Spurs Reality Check | 02:44 | Wemby hype, loss to Suns, young team moments | | Spurs Injuries & Rotation | 08:14 | Dylan Harper, Fox, Vassell, non-Wemby minutes, Kornet | | Where Spurs Fit in the West | 13:51 | Western Conference parity, Spurs playoff ceiling | | Warriors & Bad Vibes | 17:34 | Draymond Green, off-court drama | | The Pelicans Disaster | 18:59 | 0-6 start, asset mismanagement, ownership, Trey Murphy bright spot | | Ja Morant & the Grizzlies | 30:10 | Suspension, effort, trade value, superstar scrutiny, possible trade fits | | Blazers’ Defensive Identity | 65:12 | Wing depth, smallball lineups, crunch time defense, Drew Holiday’s impact, sustainability worries |

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CONCLUSION

The hosts balance skepticism about early-season hype (especially with the Spurs and Blazers) against reasons for cautious optimism. They’re unvarnished in their criticism of the Pelicans and frank about the Grizzlies' leadership crisis with Ja Morant. Portland’s rise is celebrated, but the panel acknowledges looming offensive and depth concerns. Throughout, the conversation weaves in league-wide themes—development vs. impatience, youth vs. experience, and the evolving meaning of “superstar” in the NBA—delivered in a candid, group chat vibe with plenty of laughs.

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Listen if you want:

• A veteran, nuanced look at young teams in the NBA
• Insider talk on how stars, egos, and team culture are shaping the 2025-26 season
• Unfiltered, funny, and sharp NBA banter on the season’s hottest (and coldest) teams

Transcript

[Rob Mahoney]

Foreign.

[Justin Ferrier]

Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Ferrier, and joining me, Rob Mahoney. Rob, thanks for joining us on this nighttime recording. I know you were up late shooting your gun off in celebration of the Dodgers win last night.

[Kyle Mann]

More of a flair guy. Personally, you know, I really want to make a statement. I just want to bring the people together and a simple gunshot's not going to get it done.

[Justin Ferrier]

Do you feel the energy just coursing.

[Kyle Mann]

Through Los Angeles right now for my Dodgers?

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, that's right, buddy.

[Kyle Mann]

Of course I do. Look, you simply cannot go to any place in the city with not like us playing right now, which is more or less LA as usual, but especially LA right now.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, I have found that the Dodgers are the one thing that everyone kind of rallies around because unlike in basketball, for instance, where there are some people that are trying to go off script and be a Clippers fan, like nobody ever wants to be an Angels fan. So that's like really the team of la. And so your team now?

[Kyle Mann]

It is my team. I'm happy to adopt them. I'm happy to announce that ever since I moved to town, they do nothing but win. Congratulations to them. And congratulations to me by extension.

[Justin Ferrier]

You're listening to the Ringer NBA show presented by FanDuel. FanDuel now displays your bet directly on your phone's lock screen and with the latest updates to the live events and player pages. And it's never been easier to be part of the game. And Missouri, get excited because FanDuel's coming your way December 1st. Download the FanDuel sportsbook app now and play your game 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus in present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. Kyle Mann could not join us for the first half of this podcast. Unfortunately, he fell into some pots or something.

[Kyle Mann]

There's an elaborate story involving a feral cat. Like I'm not exaggerating an actual story involving a feral cat. We'll have to get the full update from Kyle next time.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, there was a Every anecdote from Kyle seems to be like some chapter in a Southern Gothic novel or novella. Even.

[Kyle Mann]

He is living the William Faulkner lifestyle, there is no doubt about it.

[Justin Ferrier]

So we're not exactly sure what's happening. But he's not here for this part. He'll join us to talk about John Morant and the mighty Four and two Portland Trilloblazers. Let's go. We're finally talking about him.

[Kyle Mann]

Are you proud of yourself?

[Justin Ferrier]

No, never.

[Kyle Mann]

I think a little shame is good for all of us, even if it means we're going to delve into your hometown team. But let's call it out as we see it.

[Justin Ferrier]

That's right. Well, speaking of shame, let's talk about the San Antonio spurs, who we were doing this pod after the game on Sunday night, hoping to vet them, you know, like celebrate their 6, 0 start to the season. One of only what, two teams at this point that would have been undefeated. Unfortunately, they got absolutely blitzed by the Phoenix Suns, one of the worst teams in the league tonight. But I felt like it was a lot of good information because for me this is a real reality check. Because we'd probably gotten over our skis thinking about Wemby was mvp. Maybe this team could really compete this season as opposed to being the level up year. This felt like more of a come to earth moment.

[Kyle Mann]

It was a come to earth moment. I just think it was. We're seeing teams like the Suns take the spurs seriously for the first time in years. Right. Wemby is not catching anyone by surprise at this point. This was the most bothered, I think we've seen him in any game this season. The doubles really seem to get to him. The timing of the way the Suns were guarding him I thought was really impactful. But more than that, it was also the Suns giving us a demonstration of how to attack the best defense in basketball right now.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah. Well, on the flip side also, perhaps to neutralize Wemby, he didn't have a good shooting game. But we've been talking about this on and off practically since game one for Wemby, maybe even in the preseason. Like, how do you guard this guy if he's going to make all his goddamn shots? We've seen center fail. We've seen Bam man Abayo, despite noting that he wasn't intimidated by how tall Wemby is, that only the media care about that sort of thing. Kind of get worked by him in, in that Heat game. This time fair.

[Kyle Mann]

Bam also worked in that game. It was, it was a mutual working Bam.

[Justin Ferrier]

I forgot, did he go to to overseas or something? Because he's getting up more than than he used to. There's no more push shots. He's just dunking over guys. Oh yeah, but we saw a lot of those bulky big wings being put on Wemby, plus a crowd. And when you don't have the release Valves that they had in this game. We should mention Dylan Harper went out. Um, and it just seemed like the offense overall just wasn't given much in support of Wemby. That felt like something or close enough to a recipe. As long as the shots aren't falling for Victor.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah, I think not just the fact that the big wings were having some success crowding him, but even guys like Devin Booker, I thought did a really good job picking him up in spots. Being the first defender before the double gets there to kind of hold it down and gradually kind of push him off his spots or chase him into a corner, that stuff is. Is a huge deal. The fact that those kinds of coverages can work against Wemby right now, because you would think he could turn and pass over the top of some of these guys, but he's panicking. He can be sped up, he can be pushed off his spot. Like, he may look like an unstoppable force on some nights, but he. He is but a mere player, Justin.

[Justin Ferrier]

He.

[Kyle Mann]

He is a young man in the basketball world trying to find his way through these defenses and how to navigate them. And especially with where San Antonio is, like, this is a lot of young guys who are figuring out their spacing together, who are figuring out how to play out of those double teams. Like, some of them have experience doing it from last season, some of them don't, but it's like that learning experience together. This isn't a playoff game, but it was a very tailored level of attention from Jordan Odd and his staff, who I think just did like a great job laying out the blueprint for where the spurs are right now.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, and the Suns didn't even have Dylan Brooks in this game, who has in the past pestered Wemby a little bit. But they do have the one thing they've had in the wake of the fallen title contender that never was a lot of these just three and D wings that have some girth to them and they were really sending help at the exact right time. And for Wemby, this, as you mentioned, learning experience, because high. The next high level thing for him is not only dealing with the double team, but dealing with it off the dribble and trying to playmake for others, which seemed really difficult for him in this one. Uh, the other thing that jumped out to me was on the flip side of things, Devin Booker and the Suns in the Devin Booker era have done such a good job pissing people off. Devin Booker in particular gets under superstar's skin. Uh, and I think the team around him follows suit in this one. Stefan Castle fell prey to that and it was a nice reminder that this is overall an extremely young team that can get lured into those sorts of pissing contests. Because there's a point where Castle had let what like three fouls in 12 seconds. It just felt like. And then there was that shoving match that led to the technicals not only with castle, but also Ms. Johnson. Just like it was real like young team stuff that you don't want to see from your super sharp title contender. Which is where we thought they might be going, but we might have to.

[Kyle Mann]

Ease off on that completely. And it's a reminder that this stuff isn't mutually exclusive. Like Stefan Castle can be a fucking gamer and be about all the right things as a basketball player, but also still be exactly his age and be vulnerable to those kinds of head games and those sorts of moments. Like definitely Devin Booker is a tough opponent for anyone to play against just as a basketball prospect. Right. How do you stop this guy? How do you deal with all his counters? How do you keep him under wraps? Incredibly challenging for anyone. The fact that he's also talking copious amounts of shit throughout the game, the fact that the Suns are stunting on you, a team that I'm sure the spurs expected to beat, has to be frustrating. It's going to get under all these guys skins from time to time and they're going to need to find kind of where their emotional center is. Right. Like Wemby is a really like fascinating player to chart the course in the future of a franchise around. But who is the player who's going to kind of center them in these moments? They don't really have a lot of those voices right now. It's more like the Harrison Barnes types who are taking guys under their wing and trying to calm them down. But they're going to have to grow up together and they're going to have to grow up pretty fast.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, that's where you could almost want the picture in picture of Dear and Fox at home watching this game where I wonder if he was saying like that's right, this is my time again. Because I have to imagine he was getting a little worried watching not only the team succeed without him, but also Dylan Harper just fold into the hearts of every fan watching him. Unfortunately we should mention. So Harper went out in this game with what seemed like a calf injury. We don't know what's going on at the time of recording this at around 8pm Pacific on Sunday night, but he has Just been filthy to start the season. Just the footwork is absolutely disgusting. It's like, it's so fun to watch.

[Kyle Mann]

Him one of the slinkiest drivers in the league right now. I don't. Again, for guys who come in with his kind of burst speed you expect, oh, he's going to be able to get the shoulder on guys, kind of turn the corner, get all the way to the rim, but he just kind of like navigates through traffic in a way that no one else is really doing right now. Like, his footwork on drives is so exceptional for a player his age. And the fact that they're going to potentially lose that is a huge thing. Like, you know, we'll see how long it takes for Fox to get back. We'll see how long Harper could be on the shelf. Stavon Castle isn't really operating in that way. Like, they're. They're radically different players in terms of the lines in which they attack. And so losing Harper, even though he's coming off the bench, even though he's not technically the team's starting point guard yet, is a huge deal, and we'll have to see how they kind of compensate for that.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah. So I would have loved to see how Harper would have been able to fill the void had he been out there. Just, he seemed like he was on his way there. But this is the moment where I think fight Fox would factor in, where nothing is really working. Everything's a little bit more gummed up. Can his straight line drives, can his pure speed, can his aggression just break whatever is throwing out there? Because that is such a nice counterbalance to everything that's going on. Not just like the beautiful, balletic, whatever the victor is, but also like the herky jerkiness that both Harper and what Castle brings. It would be nice to just have some raw, visceral, punch you in the mouth sort of approach when you need it. And that's what Fox is.

[Kyle Mann]

I mean, it's the same conversation we have around every team that has like a clear superstar and a question mark at number two. Right. You know, this was. This was the J Dub conversation for so long was like, can he elevate into that sort of role to be an actual pressure release for Shay Aston answered, did it to great effect through a run for the championship. Not having Fox out there means that that's much more of a job by committee right now.

[Justin Ferrier]

And.

[Kyle Mann]

And it's a job that Harper has done well in. In moments, the Castle has done well in, like, especially turning defense into offense. Like all of these guys, Devin Vassell, we should say, who's kind of like quietly the secret sauce of what the spurs do offensively in a lot of ways, like very, very essential because of his ability to be a three level guy. You know, he's had huge moments in that capacity. But none of those guys are Dear and Fox, none of them have kind of the stop and go like efficacy like how, how easy it feels for Dearon Fox to get to his stuff in mid range is something that no other Spur has right now. And so you' they need the break glass in case of emergency secondary scorer and they need the guy who's going to keep his wits about him. You know former clutch player of the year de' Aaron Fox. Not that this game was going into the clutch at any point, but just like when things are really going to shit, who are the scorers you can count on to get to their stuff calmly in a very quick fashion without having a lot of setup. That's Dear and Fox's game.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, it's nice to see Vassell start to actually bring it because he'd been kind of in this weird in between zone where he looked like he was going to be such an integral part of the success of this team. They're giving him on ball reps to really develop that in. Ultimately seems like a wrinkle to, to what he does, but he's probably best served in a three and D role. But they need those sort of guys because they are very guard heavy. If it's Fox, Harper, Castle and even Vassell's probably more of a two than he is a three. You're, you're lacking a lot of size out there and in particular not having Luke Cornette unfortunately has been a pretty big issue because we got a lot of Biombo minutes this night and since he's been out and unfortunately that ain't gonna work to the point where they just ditched the center position altogether. Went a little bit small with that second unit. Cornette was awesome in that first game and not only getting to see him spell Wemby with because the non Wemby minutes have already become a thing, which is inevitable I guess for every superstar in the league. But to see him play alongside him. What would the Suns, a team that was relying more on the Osogadaros and Mark Williams, but you know, sometimes they're going a little smaller at center too or would they do against a front line with those two guys out there?

[Kyle Mann]

I think it would be a really tough look for them to counter especially like the big to big passing between them, then you're playing even more over the top of these smaller defenders who are trying to rush everybody. I think Luke Cornett's a really important part of this spurs team. Obviously the non wimy minutes as you talked about are key, but especially defensively, right? They just like cannot hold it down with Harrison Barnes at the 5. It's just not a realistic thing for the spurs to manage over any longer term. So they're trying to get through it until Cornet can get back. But the reality is like right now when Wimby is on the floor, they are astoundingly good on defense, right? Like we were getting into like really special territory in terms of the way they lock teams down with Luke Cornett on the floor. Even in that limited sample, they were pretty fucking awesome defensively even still. And so if that is the drop of just going from, you know, all time exceptional levels of defense to very good reliable starter, quality defense from your backup five, it changes so much of the spurs kind of day to day life, right? It's relieving pressure on everyone around them in totally different ways.

[Justin Ferrier]

So the good thing for the spurs is I think they've announced themselves this year is not being more like playing fodder. They're actually going to compete for something on a much higher level. And to that point, I know we're not even two weeks into the season, so this is all silly to begin with, but like as we're looking at the landscape starting to develop because I do think we learn a lot about how things will go from the very early on sort of matchups. I would say like obviously the Thunder in a league to themselves and Luca puts up 40 or 50 every night he's available. And when he's dozen, Austin Rees would, you know, and then there's a lot of kind of teams in the mix. The Rockets I imagine will float to the top here, but you know, Denver Nuggets have stuff to figure out. Clippers, who knows if they're going to show up on a given night. Like the spurs seem very much, dare I say, in the mix for the top six.

[Kyle Mann]

I appreciate your restraint in not mentioning the 4 and 2 Portland Trailblazers. I thought it was coming. I would have bet my life on it.

[Justin Ferrier]

I didn't mention the warriors, to be honest. I probably should have. Even though they got kind of worked the other night.

[Kyle Mann]

Not only got worked, but the vibes there are kind of weird. Like just what you were seeing out of Stephen Draymond was so weird. This is. We're already at a very strange part in the season, Justin. We're going to talk about John Morant a little later and what's going on in Memphis. The vibes in Minnesota are very strange right now. The vibes in Golden State are awfully weird right now. There's just so many Western Conference teams that we expected to be good and competent that are really are finding themselves that are having to do their soul searching pretty early in the year. And that in itself is an opportunity for the Spurs. Right. Like, this is a humbling for sure, but it's not the kind that's going to make the front office go back to their war room and be like, oh, my God, we have to trade Victor Weapanyama immediately because he called out our coach in a post game press conference. It's just like, oh, what do we have to do tactically to make this make sense? Or what are we learning about the missing pieces of our roster that we're going to be able to go out and find in the future once things really settle down? But for now, they're just really good for the most part. They did lose this game in quite notable fashion, and the Suns deserve all due credit for that. But they have enough missing pieces coming back that I think there's plenty of reason to think that the defense will be even better than it's been, which has already been quite good, and that the offense is going to get like, some of the holes in the offense are going to get plugged up by Fox coming back in particular.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yep. Schedule gets a little bit harder. So they got the Lakers coming up and then the Rockets back to back. And so that's where we'll probably find out just how far this can go.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

But we're liking what we're seeing thus far. Like, I'm starting to think, like, should I just go to the playground and start wearing a T shirt under my jersey in honor of Dylan Harper and Stefan Castle?

[Kyle Mann]

Is it cool? You think it's going to be cool again?

[Justin Ferrier]

I think it's cool because I heard people complaining about this because David Stern in that era, he would have just made sure that would never happen. Anyone doing anything but wearing the proper jersey and the proper accessories.

[Kyle Mann]

He was sending people to Guantanamo Bay for, like, wearing any shoe that was not your uniform color. So, like, we need to chill on the David Stern worship a little bit. I understand. Adam Silver leaves a lot of people wanting. That's okay. David Stern is a. Is a different animal Was a different animal, I should say.

[Justin Ferrier]

We got the NBA cup, we got a new All Star game every year, and we got some T shirts back in the game, baby. But it's such, like an oddball thing because you always notice the guy who's not just wearing like the. The athletic, like, clingy material shirt, but the full on, just regular ass Hanes, like, beefy T shirt under his jersey. Like, that guy always sticks out in college and everyone always talks about it. And now we finally got some beefy tees with our guy, Dylan Harper. He's a throwback.

[Kyle Mann]

I. I guess he is a throwback. I guess that's a good thing. I gotta say, this is not something that has moved me in any particular direction. I. I am simply won over and enamored with watching Dylan Harper literally move anywhere on a basketball court. So I hope we get to do that again very soon.

[Justin Ferrier]

Just, just briefly, because you mentioned the bad vibes with the Warriors. You know who sucks to see live?

[Kyle Mann]

Who's that?

[Justin Ferrier]

Draymond Green. He fucking is so annoying. He's just always bitching about someone or something and yelling at the closest foreign player that he can find. I can't imagine Steph Curry, the amount of therapy he's had to undergo just to tolerate this motherfucker for so many years. It's just like, it's. He's a tough watch because he's always, like, trying to almost fight someone and it's like, dude, like, calm down. Like, I think he really. I mean, this is the case for him for the past couple years at this point, but like, a couple years. His entire career at this point. But it's just like, it must be so daunting for the people that have to wrangle him to do so.

[Kyle Mann]

I mean, he just does it for the love of the game. And by the love of the game, I don't mean basketball, but like, that game within the game is what gets him up in the morning in the same way, frankly, that it does Dylan Brooks. That it does. Even guys like Devin Booker. It's like they want. Not only the war between the lines, like, they want the war of the mind. You know, they really want to just be engaging on all fronts at all times.

[Justin Ferrier]

That's me just playing the psychological warfare.

[Kyle Mann]

I didn't want. I didn't, you know, I didn't want to say it, but I'm glad you called it out yourself.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, Draymond sucks. And you know who else sucks?

[Kyle Mann]

Who's that?

[Justin Ferrier]

The New Orleans Pelicans literally suck because they are now.06 dropping yet another game to the Thunder today. The Thunder of the Thunder. I mean I didn't expect them to win that game but they didn't have chat, they didn't have J Dub and they were not in this game at all. They lost by 31 points.

[Kyle Mann]

They did.

[Justin Ferrier]

And that is the third loss of 30 or more this season. So that's literally half their games.

[Kyle Mann]

Not only half their games, just in half of the 30 point losses in the entire NBA this season belong to the New Orleans Pelicans. So they, I mean they just have some of the ugliest losses out there. I would like to run down for you just a quick list of some things that are going on with this team right now. We talked about the bad vibes going around the West. How about this for the New Orleans Pelicans? I think they're the worst shooting team in basketball. Terrible. From three. They're shooting 21% from mid range right now. 21%. Their playmaking is non existent. They, they cannot guard literally anybody. Willie Green does not seem to trust a single one of their centers to the point that they signed and he started DeAndre Jordan in a real life NBA game. Zion looks like he would rather be anywhere else than participating with this team at this time. Jordan Pool is engaging in every minute as an active revolt against his team. What is happening?

[Justin Ferrier]

I mean I think this is New Orleans Pelicans basketball baby, is what is happening. Well, the good thing is, you know, if things don't go well this year, they have something to look forward to in the draft with a precious top lottery draft pick. Actually they have two precious lottery draft picks because they have the Indianapolis Pacers or excuse me, Indiana Pacers draft pick this year. Oh wait, they don't have either of those because they traded both of those away. If, if their GM was literally no one. If they just replaced them with like a cat and the cat just didn't know how to work the phone the entire off season was a camera. Watching the cat try to dial like the number for the Portland Trailblazers or something. They would have done better than what Joe Dumars has done thus far.

[Kyle Mann]

There was a live stream. I'm so glad you brought this up. Of somebody had connected vintage like old school Game Boy Pokemon to their fish tank somehow. And the fish by the way of its movement would enter a random entry into like the, the control pan had of the game. Eventually the Fish beat the game. I think, I think the fish playing Pokemon is wildly more successful than the cat who would be running the Pelicans. The actual management of the Pelicans right now, like, it is just an outright disaster in every possible respect. And the fact that they already mortgaged that future, like, I don't even want to say Derek Queen's name. It's not his fault. Like, he was just in the draft and these guys decided to just, like, sell the whole farm when they knew they had to have known on some level that this was not going to be the easiest operation to manage.

[Justin Ferrier]

Does Willie Green know Derek Queen's name? Because he played him seven minutes total in a blowout in this game against the Thunder. I just. I don't get it. You could say, like, oh, you know, we don't want to give minutes to the young guys because then they'll just exacerbate the. The. The level of competition. Like, they. They'll just make things worse because they don't know what's going on out there. Well, that wasn't an issue. So why isn't the draft pick that you use both of those picks for? Because, remember, just for the listeners, the Pacers pick that they gave back before Halliburton's injury, that is what they then used. I believe it was 23rd in the draft to move up in order to get Queen. So it really was the Pacers pick, plus the pick going to Atlanta next year in order to get Queen. So I. I just. I just don't understand it. I have to imagine that Willie Green's days are numbered at this point. It's.

[Kyle Mann]

I.

[Justin Ferrier]

Maybe as you're listening to this right now on Monday morning, he's already gone. James Borrego had some success in Charlotte speaking Lamello's language in a way that perhaps other coaches have not been able to. I don't think it fucking matters because this roster is atrocious and the ownership is the worst, perhaps in sports, because the same thing is going on with the Saints right now.

[Kyle Mann]

You know, it's bad when you're blundering across sporting lines, when you're dabbling in multiple leagues and failing on all fronts. But I'm with you that Willie Green inevitably is on a. On a hot seat right now just because there are only so many things you can shake up and change in these sorts of situations. And the coach is usually one of the first to go. It's not his fault, really. Like, he does some odd things from time to time. The rotation choices, including with the Derek Queen stuff today, as you said, that's like, oh, that's A little funny. I don't really understand why these players are playing together or why this is the approach with this particular group. Kind of normal coaching, second guessing stuff as far as I'm concerned. I think by and large he's been fine. You know, not a fireable offense as far as the things Willie Green has done. Uh, but when you coach a team that is this bad, you almost always get fired. It's just kind of a matter of course, it's a matter of time. And unless he does something dramatic to save his job, that's kind of what the burden of proof becomes is like, can you bail yourself out of this thing fast enough to keep in that position? And I just don't see anything with this roster that would suggest they're in a position to do that.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, the problem was more process, as it typically is with this organization, where it's like Green stayed when a new regime came in in the front office. And the reporting suggests partly because of Green's relationship with Gail Benson, who is the owner. And so if you're friends with Ms. Gail, you can get very far, as we've seen with top level executives in both of the franchises that she's the steward of and yet just doesn't have much say because she allows those guys to do so much on their own despite some of the blunders that have happened over and over again. So Green probably wasn't supposed to be here in the first place and it doesn't seem like he will be going forward. One of the guys that is going to be here for a while though is Jeremiah Fierce, who in the midst of all this playing with some real juice. And if you're looking for silver linings.

[Kyle Mann]

Like that's one of them as advertised. Right. Like, this is what he was brought here to be and do, and I hope he continues to get an opportunity to do that. Like they're moving him into the starting lineup was kind of a no brainer. If they're going to be this bad and it really should be with Derek Queen as well. They need to lean into these guys as much as they can while also trying to facilitate the development of, you know, the veterans who could conceivably be a part of this team for a longer term. The, the Trey Murphy stuff has been so funky this year because on the one hand you watch him operate and Trey Murphy's a player we like, we have a lot of respect for, has, has really been really come on strong over the last couple seasons and this year it feels like he's trying to do a lot. It feels like he's really kind of pushing on the edges in a way that isn't always constructive, really isn't always productive.

[Justin Ferrier]

And.

[Kyle Mann]

And at the same time, it's like, what do you want him to do? Like, just sit back and watch the ship sink around him and do absolutely nothing in the process? Like, teams that are in this position encourage even kind of the best soldiers to step outside themselves and do things that are like, a little bit too much or a little bit outside their comfort zone just out of pure desperation. And I hope we don't get to that point with Trey Murphy where it feels like all this development starts spiraling off in weird directions just because the Pelicans are in such an awful state.

[Justin Ferrier]

Real Breaking Bad. What did you expect me to roll over and die? Energy from Trey Murphy as everything else goes up in flames. I hope it's that. I hope it maybe like the coaching adjustment can bring some semblance of, of a direction for the good players that are there, if only to like, perhaps give them auditions for other teams. I think every team in the league could use a Trey Murphy. I think most of us watching from afar want to see him get to one of those teams because he's, he's such a high level player. I know a couple of executives have mentioned, like, that's the guy, like, in terms of like the 3 and D guy that could slot into whatever you have going on, it's Trey Murphy is at near, at or near the top of the list there. But instead right now they're 0 and 6. One of two 0 and 6 teams. And the other one practically plays in like two waves of rookies every game. And that's the Brooklyn Nets. So the Pelicans unfortunately are trying to win and they do not have a win. As we record this podcast.

[Kyle Mann]

Not only do they not have a win, Justin, so like right now they're being outscored by 18 points a game. Point differential, negative 18. It is the most lopsided point differential for any team in the league right now. Meaning, like, the Pelicans are better at being bad than the best teams are at being good. That's. That is where they find themselves six games into the season. So grand opening, grand closing for this season of. Of New Orleans Pelicans basketball. I wish everyone involved well and mental health, and I hope they all just can find some kind of inner peace with all this.

[Justin Ferrier]

We all have our one thing. The Pelicans is just being catastrophically bad.

[Kyle Mann]

You know what? We have never been punished for our mantra of never trust the pelicans, but never, never so much as right now that's unfortunately true.

[Justin Ferrier]

All right, why don't we take a quick break and when we come back, we'll talk John Moran and the Blazers with Kyle mann. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel getting on the NBA action at any time with live betting on FanDuel. From the first whistle until the final buzzer, FanDuel is your home for live betting. So I'm looking at the awards odds here and I'm looking at most improved player. We have a couple of games worth of data on the docket and so I think Denny Avdia plus 1200 for most improved seems pretty good to me, especially because he's been playing really well. I picked him for most improved player going into this season just because I thought like even though he had that leap last year, I think he would do it in a much more public way this year. And it seems like that's kind of bearing out. I still think that the public at large, because he's doing this in a much showier way, the Blazers are playing much better. I think they'll be looking to reward someone. So give me Denny Avdiya plus 1200 for most improved. You should put that one in with FanDuel because FanDuel is giving new customers $150 in bonus bets if your first $5 bet wins. So just visit FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to sign up today. Play your game with FanDuel, official sports betting partner of the NBA, 21 plus in present in select states or 18 plus in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. First online real money wager only $5 first deposit required. Bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus. Best which expires expire seven days after receipt restrictions apply. See [e-mail] gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. And now for a more uplifting tale, let's talk about John Moran in the Memphis Chrisleys, who find themselves just a few weeks into the season already dealing with more Morant mess. Uh, he got suspended for one game on Sunday because of what happened in the previous game where he basically quiet quit, as Chris Harrington put it, where he coasted through a game. Something happened at halftime because he basically just slept walked through the rest of that game. And then afterward the reporters Talked to him. He was very terse in his comments about go talking to the coaching staff, et cetera, et cetera. Rob, not what you want to see for what was supposed to be a turning of the page for the Grizzlies.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Kyle Mann]

You don't think that's not what they were looking for from him?

[Justin Ferrier]

I don't think so, no.

[Kyle Mann]

I have to say, if you only caught John Morant's second half exploits on social media, like if you just saw some of the clips that were floating around, I have to say they do not do them his performance justice whatsoever. Like it. It really is a unique thing to see a alleged star level player float for an entire half and not once like break the three point line, not once take an active step on defense in literally any potential direction. I think like the volume of it felt overwhelming in that moment to the point where it just feels so passive aggressive. It felt so pointed and clearly. Yeah, all the stuff kind of crested post game where Thomas Isolo like apparently reportedly called out jaw in front of the team, challenged his effort and lack of leadership. I have a hard time saying that he was wrong given everything that we just pointed out and everything that we saw in that game against the Lakers. It was straight up embarrassing for a player of his caliber.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Running three point line to three point line. You know, I've been known to do that, but I'm also more or less washed. Yeah. I mean we were kind of talking about what it could have been. I was doing a little detective work to see like what would have led them to that point because it is pretty wild when you look at the box score and we're talking about a guy who's played like what, 65 games in the past three years. So I'm sure there's a little bit he's got. I know this would seem irrelevant, but in the cultural sense he's kind of getting back into the flow of he's got the most popular shoe. He's like, I'm trying to get back to being the guy at the center of the culture, in the center of the highlight culture and sort of just right the ship a little bit, get his career back on track and he has a great game. You know, the game before. I'm blanking on who he hung 20 on the. On the Suns. Right. And. Yeah, yeah. And. And you can. I could. I'm just trying to.

[Kyle Mann]

This is.

[Rob Mahoney]

I was telling you all this is me tinfoil hat kind of thing here. I'm like, what, what might it have been? And I was like. I watched his turnovers in particular, and I was trying to watch Isolo's. Is it Isalo? I'll make sure. I'll say I say it correctly, because that's what we do, Rob.

[Kyle Mann]

What is parodies of ourselves at this point. He's definitely not Italian.

[Rob Mahoney]

That is not the one you become. You become a jackass at some point. Shocker there. No, I was watching his turnovers, and, you know, Phoenix was trapping him whenever there was a screen out, like, out to the hash mark. They were trying to get rid of him to get him to get rid of the ball because Memphis doesn't have another ball handler right now. I mean, at least they could get, you know, Pippin back. It would help, but he had bad body language after some of those turnovers. I mean, just like, slump, just quit, you know, shrugged his shoulders. They ran back the other way and scored a couple of times. And I was trying to watch Isolo to see what his reaction was to it. And it was just kind of hands on hips. There wasn't any kind of demonstrative thing. But it made me just wonder what might. Because in my mind, I'm like, he has this performance, pretty efficient performance, but there's that and that, you know, you. That kind of reaction in that situation, you can see how that would impact the team if the star is kind of setting that precedent. To me, I'm just guessing that might be the thing that he said in front of the team, like, hey, we need you to react this way. I was curious if you all had any other theories on what it might have been.

[Justin Ferrier]

I think it had to be something at halftime because the newser that ESPN wrote about this specifically mentioned the suspension was for Morant's response, which was a tone deemed inappropriate and dismissive in response to Isolo challenging Morant's leadership and effort in front of the team. And so I have to. Something must have happened in the first half, and they came to head at halftime, and then this led to that.

[Kyle Mann]

I do think that part seems to be true as far as there must have been some kind of conversation, even just like a tactical one of, hey, we want you to move the ball in these types of situations. Hey, we want you to rev up into these actions, whatever it is that they were asking him to do. I think there had to have been some nudge that led John Moran to just completely shut down and go into malicious compliance mode of like, oh, you want me to move the ball? This is what that looks like. But I think the suspension came from the post game comments specifically of like the oh, go ask the coaching staff. And beyond that, it sounds like they don't want me to play. Basically like they. Basically the result, the way to make our play better as a team is to bring my minutes down. Is what John Morant conveyed to the, to the media.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah. And Chris Harrington. Everyone should go read his piece in the Daily Memphi and about this afterward. He was one of the few reporters on the scene getting the quotes from Ja on this. He'd mentioned that there had been some discontent over how they were parsing out the minutes to the stars in particular. I guess they changed up the substitution pattern so that like could have compounded things. But the irony to all of this, Kyle, is that Isolo is Jaws guy, right? They fire parts of the coaching staff, including Taylor Jenkins last year to go to his more preferred pick and roll style of offense. And he has been quoted at times since that all happened, backing ISO not only for just that, the offense and. And bringing things more toward his preference, but because of his direct communication style. He said recently after a game against the Pacers, he was like, yeah, I like the dial. It puts us in a better position. It's great for us. And so it's tough to really find a place where you can fall on Jaw's side because everything seems to be pointing in him kind of being a hypocrite in this situation.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I just come back. Maybe it's a combination of all of our theories where I'm like, you know him, Robbie, you mentioned like getting off the ball. If you talk about those specific turnovers that I mentioned, it would behoove the Grizzlies for him not to stay on the ball and pound the ball because he is smaller and they are going to trap him. And if he gets off, if he holds it too long and gets in these disadvantageous situations, those are turnovers. If he gets off it a little bit earlier instead of pounding the ball, his pick and roll rate is insanely high right now, even for him. His usage is pretty normal. 35.3. That's kind of in the ballpark of where he's been the last few years. But 46.8 is pretty high for him. That's pretty high across the league. And you know, Bain shouldered some of that last year. There's just really not anybody that's credible. So I could see some frustration, you know, in, in the light of him having such a good game and maybe feeling good about that. You know, you get this direct criticism Maybe he just didn't want to hear that at that moment and that's why he erupted like that.

[Kyle Mann]

Maybe. I mean, look, John Moran is not the first touchy star to ever work in the NBA to ever like bristle at a coach's comments or been called out specifically and pointedly. This stuff happens all the time. I think it's the outsized reaction. I think it's the track record, I think it's the history. I think it's like the overall idea that the John Moran experience has worn out its welcome in a wide variety of ways and he is operating and carrying himself. As you said, Kyle, as somebody who is trying to re enter this conversation as one of the premier players in the league, I think the fact that he was off in the wilderness for what amounts to years now, between injuries and suspensions and getting back.

[Justin Ferrier]

Right.

[Kyle Mann]

And getting back into good form all the while, guys like Anthony Edwards are on the rise. Guys like Shay are on the rise. Like Ja kind of feels like he missed his moment in a lot of ways and now he's just left frustrated. Clearly he's pointing the fingers back at the coaching staff when he. I don't even know what the devil's advocate position would be other than the ones we kind of already laid out in terms of. Oh, he might be frustrated because of this or that, but there's really just no justification for behaving this way. If you're the alleged leader of a team.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, it doesn't even really matter. Right. Like it doesn't ultimately matter what it was. Like, you know, you should at least be take the accountability. Which I want to talk to you all about that, but. Sorry, go ahead, Rob.

[Kyle Mann]

No, but like there are guys who have earned that right. Right. To voice themselves and voice that frustration and maybe even, you know, call their coach back out in response to something that's happening. John Moran has made one all NBA team. He's made two all star teams, two all star teams in his entire career. He has won a single playoff series. Like, what is. What ground does he have to stand on in terms of really putting his foot down and saying everything should be catered around what it is that doesn't frustrate me in this moment.

[Justin Ferrier]

I think this is tough for him optically because he's lost all benefit of doubt, at least with the public. Right. I think everyone is just sick of this, especially last year being so injury marred and the team having this long track record of being okay without him and them playing offense well in that previous system that he Wanted to scrap to. To go and do this. It's really like there. It's tough to get on Jaw's side. I think that the problem now is how much this filters into how the Grizzlies approach things, because on top of just all of the discontent and all the issues that have been mounting, Kyle, he hasn't played like a superstar consistently in a little while, as Rob's kind of outlining. And this season, like, you know, he'll have flashes. The Phoenix game ultimately became the game winner is the prime example of that. But the jump shot looks flat, and there's only so much you can kind of keep giving him the like, credence for and like, kind of manage, like building things toward him, basically, when at a certain point you just have to throw your hands up. And this might be one of those moments, I'm not sure. But I think if it continues down this path, I think we could look back and say that this might have been the real inflection point for him.

[Rob Mahoney]

You hit on it. I mean, I think the shooting thing, when he pivoted into. And I always. I mean, I tend to do this obviously, because I go back, I see these guys at the different stages. I saw this dude. My. I always tell people this story. My father in law works for Morehead State basketball. And when JA was a freshman, he. He does. He was like, you got to see this kid from Murray State. He gave me like the. The tip on him and I was like, oh, really? Okay, So I saw Ja, but JA was very much like a. I didn't see him. And granted, you could say this was just me getting it wrong, but there was a pivot point for me in the way that he. He approached the game, I thought, which was. He was sort of a floor raising, pick and roll great. Like the passing was the thing that he was known for early on. It was like, oh, man, this guy has great feeling ball screens. Like, he, he. There are guys that, you know, like Shaq Buchanan, Darnell Coward, they're all these random guys who were in the Memphis system who got a chance, but he made them all better. And something kind of shifted a little bit. I thought whenever he became the scoring focused guy guy, it was like the superstardom thing kind of pivoted the way that he played. Now, granted, this, you know, the entire NBA ecosystem incentivizes guys to get bigger numbers, bigger stats, get those all star teams, you know, things like that. I just, I wondered. And this is, again, this is my tinfoil thing. I just noticed a difference in him as a player, that started to happen. And if he was going to become that kind of guy who was like, okay, this is the guy who's the score at the center of what we do. This is how we build our roster. The shooting does become such an issue. It, like, it's. It puts a cap and it creates something that's going to be a problem because, you know, the paint touches are the point. They're the thing that. That he does that helps every team that he is on. And, you know, if you're just looking at the trajectory of a guy his size, you know, he's 26 years old. I was also looking at, like, Blake and Udonis talking about him. I was like, he's like the third or fourth. Well, he's. You say that's it, but he's also like, the third or fourth oldest guy on the team. I don't have Brandon Clark's age in front of me, but that's another thing, is like, the vets that are on the team, but I just. I'm kind of. Another thing about this, too, is, like, man, it just really reminds me of Allen Iverson's arc. He didn't hit the highs that. That Iverson hit, but you all see that. I was kind of looking at, like, when things started to go weird for Iverson. I mean, it was, you know, Larry Brown left in what year? What year was that? When Brown left the. The Sixers?

[Kyle Mann]

Well, but it feels like Iverson's arc, but sped up. It's like we. We fast forwarded through the, like, the full commencement and the celebration of who AI was and like, the highest of highs in terms of actually driving winning and driving playoff success.

[Justin Ferrier]

But they.

[Kyle Mann]

They do occupy a similar space in that, like, what they do bring to a team when they're at their absolute best is spiritual. Like, it's cultural right there. There is a way that John Morant invigorates a team that. That also. That does remind me of Allen Iverson. That does remind you of, like, those sorts of guards. That's really important. But when you look at those teams, too, and you really drill it down, it's like the reason the Grizzlies were regularly winning 50 games in the regular season was because they were regularly one of the best defensive teams in the league, and they were also regularly one of the deepest teams in the league. And so Ja was getting unbelievable highlights. He was clearly having a galvanizing effect on the guys that were around him, but he wasn't dictating terms in the way that other superstar players do. And I think there's a criticism of Iverson that's similar. Right. It's like the reason the Sixers went to the NBA Finals is because of Allen Iverson for sure. But it's also because their defense was so good and stars like that are always so hard to talk about and place and value properly within an organization because what they're doing on the court is not necessarily a direct line to what makes that team so successful on, like a play by play basis, Even if it is like, culturally speaking, on a zoomed out season by season basis.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yes. How do you get rid of a player who is projected to become, at the very least in the discussion for the face of the league, who is printing probably money for your franchise because he's selling so many jerseys and bringing guys to the building, even though, like, the team was successful, Like, Jai is like a one on one in terms of magnetism and charisma and everything you want from a superstar. Yes, all of that. But I think you just have to wonder, like, how long can you keep bending over backwards? And my mind flashes back to the Desmond Bain trade is sort of like a flashpoint in all of this because I think you could say, oh, the Bane trade allowed them to take a step back so that they could build something around Jah and Jiren that may be a little bit better suiting, may have a higher ceiling than what they ultimately had, which topped out at a certain point. Ja's injuries and all of his issues probably contribute heavily to that. But now I'm starting to wonder actually, did they give themselves the leeway to keep cutting and make an even more dramatic sort of trade and actually this jaw and completely re envision what's going on there.

[Kyle Mann]

I mean, it seemed like they were kind of at least leaving open that possibility. Right. You fire Taylor Jenkins, you trade one of the three core members of your team, and then it's just kind of tbd. From that point, it what didn't seem like there was a hard confirmation or like a reiteration of like, oh, we are a John Morant team today and tomorrow. And, you know, every year going forward it was like, this is who we are right now. This is what we have. This is a decent enough team to go into battle with for the regular season and we'll see where it goes. Unfortunately, John Moran has taken it already, like two weeks into the season into some pretty weird and dark places.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, I just don't know how you can keep, like, giving him opportunities and trust that he will be your partner in arms going forward with this. Like, and I think that's a typical superstar thing, but when you're not playing as a superstar, that conversation gets more naughty. And you are kind of give yourself the opportunity to make harder decisions about a superstar. Because then, like, we've seen this in, like, just any walks of life when you don't have the cachet, like, all of a sudden the bottom out falls out, like, very quickly. Right. And I wonder if this might be the moment to the point where I think I would probably tell myself if I was in the Grizzlies front office, this is it. But I would keep going forward, not say anything publicly, keep, like, working the market. But I would say, like, this is where I've stopped, like, doing things the jaw way. We're going to focus on what the future is, regardless of what he is.

[Kyle Mann]

So this is. But, well, we're not going to actually make any definitive movement. And it's just internally, I am sipping my coffee going, guys, this is it.

[Justin Ferrier]

You're going to wait in the wings for the opportunity to provide itself. I think the question, Kyle, is like, what is that opportunity? Because his market value at this point somehow has gotten lower, even though in the summer it seemed at its nadir.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, this is going.

[Justin Ferrier]

This.

[Rob Mahoney]

This event is just so terrible because ideally, you could kind of maybe come to that conclusion anyway and have him play well and be like, okay, everything has been rehabilitated. We're good. He's back to. He has reset back to the Marant that we knew before. But now this is like, this is such a tough situation because, you know, I guess Memphis could hold out and just. And just kind of act like, I don't know what you're talking about. He's John Morant, you know, and just kind of demand what they want. But the market's going to be tough. And, you know, you go on fanspo's trade machine and Jaws number one, and I'm going through and looking at some of the teams, I was a couple, two things wanted to go. Just mention the LaRoche thing really quickly. It seems like that would be a really, like. It just seems ideal for somebody like him. You know, I guess that granted that's.

[Justin Ferrier]

The offense they were running last year, right?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes. The thing that the Heat are doing this year that they demonstrated on. On Amazon for us. But yeah, I just. That. And then I was curious, do you all have, like a. I'm sure we're going to hear Memphis fans that are just Love Jaw lovers are going to be mad even to hear this. Or maybe they've been on the trade machine, I don't know. But do you have one just off the top of your head that you, like, find interesting? Like, that would just be a nice reset for him, a team where he would fit.

[Justin Ferrier]

Well, Kyle, obviously, I prepared for this moment and I have a whole thing sketched out for this. I actually have this as like, if you're in this team's front office and you're having the meeting about job, which is probably happening all over the league probably once a month at this point, because these things just keep happening, would you say, yeah, let's go for. We're actually prime to take advantage of what he does well and assume the risk, because that's where we are. Right. I have a list of teams that I have jotted down here. I'm curious what you guys think the first one is. Milwaukee. I would say definitively, yes.

[Kyle Mann]

He's just such a fit with Giannis. Like on a non shooting, a star level. Sure. But it's like in terms of those guys actually working together, especially when you have Ryan Rollins.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, I mean, I was going to.

[Rob Mahoney]

Say A, Rollins slander, B, just a basketball philosophy thing. Got a lot of great feedback about that with the Bulls, by the way. That was sarcasm. I mean, with two non shooters.

[Justin Ferrier]

Thanks for the confirmation.

[Rob Mahoney]

With two non shooters. Yeah, that. That is interesting. But I mean, yeah, I mean, if Rollins continues. Yeah, that's one that I'm not as. I'm not as favorable towards that one. Like I. And yeah, like, of course, you also could do the thing of, like, we were talking about the vet thing. I mean, Giannis seems like somebody who is just so to the letter, like, leadership is just such a huge part of who he is. You know, I just. I wonder what that would look like if Moran is suddenly, you know, you know, flying under the wing of Giannis.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, this is getting bleak quickly because that was my automatic. Yes. I'm curious where we go from here.

[Kyle Mann]

Oh, I think there's one other automatic.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yes. Who would you say?

[Rob Mahoney]

So you think that's an automatic? Okay. Okay.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah, I think have to be an automatic. Yes.

[Justin Ferrier]

Okay. So you're into the John Morant, Devin Booker experience.

[Kyle Mann]

I'm not into it. I'm saying, like, would Mattish be a say? Yeah, absolutely. I believe that he would probably so.

[Justin Ferrier]

I just don't know what either of these teams, if we're going to lump them with Milwaukee, have to give Memphis. That's interesting. Like at least Milwaukee has this faraway pick that could be something down the road that you could spin for, basically, like what they do with the Bain trade and getting Phoenix's own first rounder next year. But for Phoenix, I guess you just like, take on Mile watch and maybe just hope to play like three of the biggest centers simultaneously.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah, there's not a great offer on the board, I'm not going to lie to you. But also, what even is the market for Jaw? I don't. I don't know how to fairly evaluate what he should be bringing back.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, that's. That's a. That's a future question. We're just identifying the teams that might be interesting right now. But yes, I think that's a. That's a big wrinkle to all of this. Miami team typically in the hunt for a star at all times.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

Would you break free from this beautiful Eric Spoelstra offense and get the guy who just forced you to scrap that offense in Memphis? Yeah, yeah. Do we.

[Kyle Mann]

Are we breaking up dynasties? Why would we do that?

[Justin Ferrier]

Well, Norm Powell was inside long term, so they have a star walking out the building any day now.

[Kyle Mann]

I mean, this is where the.

[Rob Mahoney]

I was going to say the irony of that would be great if he, if he complains about laroche and then goes to the. To that system. But I think that segues to. Kind of what we're talking about is that if you want to talk about any organization that has alignment, you know, all the way up from the coach to the, to the GM to the ownership man, I mean, like, that. That would be a situation where I think his tolerance for really direct criticism would be. Because that stuff just doesn't go on in Miami. I mean, you see, you saw you. Donna sort of a. But. But I was thinking about it as I was driving to pick up my wife from having a flat tire earlier. I was thinking about accountability within organizations. And it's like that. It's a nice idea, but you don't really ever get to that point. You know, it's like, what makes those teams so different so that they can hold the line and be. And tell a superstar like, this is the way it is. You're going to change. We're not going to fire the coach because of your. Your whim. And it's like, yeah, Memphis just never really quite got to that level where they could do that. And it's going to be interesting to see if they hold the line here. But yeah, Miami would be a funny one just because it would Be such a different. I don't know. How would that go?

[Kyle Mann]

Can you imagine being Noah Laroche and it's like just everywhere you go, John Morant gets traded there and you get summarily fired. Like an absolutely horrible fate for a guy who's like, just like a consultant with the teat at this point.

[Justin Ferrier]

But this is the NBA and microcosm, right? We talk up all these trends and these wrinkles that teams are finding to work around the fact that superstars typically dictate the fate of the league for time, pretty much the entire league. Right? But I think the question now is, are some of these superstarless offenses, at the very least giving your franchise the leeway to sell to your ownership? Like actually this star who's being a dick. We don't need him actually, because we could do this without him. Go look at Miami and all these other places that have succeeded without them. You can even throw, I guess, to a certain extent, if you really wanted to squint like okc, because obviously they have Shea and the mvp, but like they have built this big old feeder system, the wings and defense, and that is starting to filter around the league. I think the time right now is best to at the very least lie to your owner and say that we don't need to put up with a superstar.

[Kyle Mann]

I just think that the payoff of going that far down the go to option list is worse than it's ever been. Like there, there was a point in the NBA where it was ISO driven enough or even just pick and roll driven enough. We're just handing John Morant the ball and clearing out and giving him even a marginal amount of spaces. Like, okay, this is a successful basis for something, I think job. Between the injuries, the shooting, his difficulty getting to and finishing at the rim, which is shocking to think about given his athleticism, but has been kind of a continuing trend in his game along with everything that happens with his conduct on and off the court at this point. Apparently just thinking about him as a pure go to score and go to creator is far enough down that list at this point, where it just doesn't necessarily justify itself. Like, you have to have more reason to want to believe in that model. And if that doesn't work, if he's the kind of player who just all of a sudden doesn't really track in that way, then why not play the way the Miami Heat are playing? Why not play the way that the Indiana Pacers played last season? Like, why wouldn't you try a different, you know, more Democratic style. If you can get the ball movers and the ball handlers and the kind of shooters to at least believe that you can live that way.

[Justin Ferrier]

The counter to that would be Toronto, who stink despite paying a lot to get all these mid tier veterans in there. That's the.

[Kyle Mann]

How many of those guys can actually pass is kind of where I've been with that team to begin with. And that's to say nothing about the shooting, which the spacing in Toronto is obviously its own problem. But there's a lot of guys who are like sticky with the ball. Right. Who need it in their hands, who aren't making the like split second decisions that teams like Miami are thriving with and that frankly even teams like Memphis were doing well with even as recently as last season. So there's a very fine line between this guy can get assists and this guy can actually play in a very fast moving read and react system. And those are not at all the same thing. They have never been the same thing. But it's easy to talk yourself into it.

[Justin Ferrier]

So are you pro Ja to Toronto or anti?

[Kyle Mann]

He wouldn't play worse than Emmanuel Quickley has been playing. So maybe that's an argument in favor.

[Justin Ferrier]

Soft maybe from Rob.

[Kyle Mann]

Soft maybe.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. I mean it seems like the King, the Kings would be the type of team that would. That would trade for. I know that that's just like the repeating recurring punching bag joke that we make, but that does seem like something that they would do.

[Justin Ferrier]

So no serious team, you're saying it's literally the Phoenixes, the Kings, the Dogs of the league. New Orleans will throw in there just because they tend to get involved in stupid things as well.

[Kyle Mann]

Sure.

[Justin Ferrier]

Like what about Houston for instance?

[Kyle Mann]

Absolutely not.

[Justin Ferrier]

Break the. Off the defense.

[Kyle Mann]

They shouldn't. They should not.

[Justin Ferrier]

Even if the cost is low.

[Kyle Mann]

I wouldn't do it.

[Justin Ferrier]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

They've got a good thing going here, man. Again, you want to talk about accountability, man, he may will chew that like he's serious. I mean that's. And that's the thing. If you watch them, dude, they defend their big. I just don't. Especially with like the shooting issues that they already have. Like you. Do you want to add John Morant?

[Justin Ferrier]

Can.

[Rob Mahoney]

Can John Morant and Amen play together? I mean, they can. I just kind of wonder what does that look like in a playoff series if you don't have to hard close on a John Moran and you're trying to slow Amin Thompson down? I just, I don't. I think that's just stacking another dissonant idea on top of what they already are.

[Kyle Mann]

We should also say, you know, while we're wish casting Houston Rockets point guards, they have very quietly climbed to the number one offensive efficiency in the NBA spot. So I think they're doing okay.

[Justin Ferrier]

I actually find that my concerns about them still hold true because I think their size is an advantage against middling teams.

[Kyle Mann]

Sure.

[Justin Ferrier]

Like, you saw that happen against Toronto in particular, where Colin Murray Bowles was talking about how his wrists hurt because he tried to box out Steven Adams. And it's just like that sort of size, I think is going to overwhelm teams that don't have an identity, don't really have much to fight back against that. But I'm still worried about like the high end there. But. But you're right, I saw that the other day and it's like, oh, yeah, the issues are on offense, but they're literally the best in the league.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah, it seems to be going more or less okay. And like, granted a lot of transition offense, a lot of other things happening there. They could use a little more half court refinement. Ladies and gentlemen, John Morant is not your source of half court refinement.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, no, you're right. I mean, yeah, I was gonna say they're just destroying people, getting out in transition, which is a nice segue to me to bring back a really wildly popular segment, the big boy of the week. It's a tandem. I'm gonna. I'm gonna say Jabari Smith and Amin Thompson had one particular sequence against the Boston Celtics. Sorry, Isaiah. It was a play where there was a back cut. Jalen Brown turned like he was. I said that. Extremely country Brown. He turned to the baseline and Jabari peeled off and timed it perfectly. Incredible block. A man goes the length of the floor and one dunks it in Chris Boucher's face. They're just big boy and everybody. So that's my segment to my recurring segment there.

[Kyle Mann]

Double big boys. Or is the plural of big boys, big boys or bigs boy? What do you think? Where are we going?

[Rob Mahoney]

It's big boys with a Z. They're like those brothers. Those brothers on the motorcycle in the Guinness World Book of Records. It's like that. Really, really big boys.

[Kyle Mann]

What are you talking about?

[Rob Mahoney]

You never seen that picture? That's an iconic picture.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah. Very large men on motorcycles. Sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

What was your last one, Justin? I'm sorry, I had to get my. I had to get the segment in there.

[Justin Ferrier]

It's great. That was a really important thing to. Super important. I have Two last, I guess, like, if you're Brooklyn, do you just tank the talent? Is it? And just say, we'll figure it out later? Or does he step on the seven or so point guards that they have in their own development?

[Kyle Mann]

This is where I just get like a little freaked out culturally. You know, it's like the idea of bringing in John Moran as a talent is profound. The idea. Idea of John Morant at his absolute best is somebody who could transform the Nets and where they are, even with all those young point guards. Like, he's. He's a guy who can, and we've seen play with other good ball handlers. Uh, but if he's going to be doing this, like, I. I don't want that guy around my young team. And so that this is how you get to, you know, the Kings and the Suns and the Pelicans list of trade candidates so quickly is because it is hard to be a serious team and want John Morant the leader, to be a critical part of what it is you do. And it's hard to even be a rebuilding team and see John Morant the leader and want him to be, you know, guiding your young guards along and teaching them ropes of what it means to be a pro when it's pretty clear he doesn't really understand.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, I just circling back to kind of like what we've been saying, and we're talking about the accountability. I think it would. I think it would have to be a team. It would almost have to be like the warriors absorbing DeMarcus cousins. Not that it's that level of. It would have to be that kind of thing where a team is so certain about their. Their organizational stability and that like, even if something does happen, it's like this. This won't be be allowed to be a thing. I don't think it can be a situation where he can come in and suddenly be the central nervous system of wherever he goes, like a Brooklyn or something like that. I think it would have to be. So maybe that's an argument for the Milwaukee thing, again, respect to Ryan Rollins. But I. Culturally, I think that's the type. If they did make a move, that's the kind of team I think would be the most likely to succeed if they were to trade for John Moran.

[Justin Ferrier]

But we're talking about strong cultures. Last one I have in the list here.

[Kyle Mann]

Okay.

[Justin Ferrier]

Of course, the Portland Trailblazers. Just rock solid defense that you could put around Ja. He's close to the Nike campus.

[Rob Mahoney]

Those are sick shoes, man. You gotta. They're sick. I say the coaching situation, obviously very, very stable over there.

[Justin Ferrier]

You know, Thiago is, I think, doing an okay job thus far.

[Kyle Mann]

He's putting in work. I, you know, I would hesitate if I were the Blazers because Drew Holiday has been significantly better than John Morant this season somehow. So what are you going to do with that?

[Justin Ferrier]

Don't want to step on Drew?

[Kyle Mann]

No.

[Rob Mahoney]

Can't keep him out of the paint. Man.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, I just. I just don't think there's much of a home for him at this point. So I would love for. For the Grizzlies to. To sort this out because I'm kind of tired of the carousel going on here, but I just don't know where at this point. So I think.

[Kyle Mann]

I didn't think they'd be this big of a bummer this quickly, you know, like, this is a team that, again, historically has just, like, found ways to weather runs of injury, to weather runs with and without John Morant. Obviously, they. We've seen them fully bottom out at times as well, but I just figured they would be another team this year, you know, in the mix, competitive enough, you know, fighting the dogfight that is just like the middle of the Western Conference, and instead we're just already here. And it's not that they've been a disaster in the standings, it's just they've clearly have already reached this sort of point where John Moran is forcing their hand like he forced them to suspend him, and now we'll be forcing them to make hard calls on the future of the franchise at a time where you would love, if you're the Grizzlies, the ability to slow play this thing.

[Rob Mahoney]

One more. The Timberwolves. Is that even possible with their. I mean, like, roster wise? There is a. We've talked. There is a. Obviously a void there with. With them auditioning, it's been. Dillingham's not quite ready to go. Conley is. What's interesting is that it would be really nice to have Mike Conley on this Memphis Grizzlies roster right now to sort of be a steadying force. But the Timberwolves are interesting to me on that front. Does that work? I submit that to the Midnight Society. Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

I mean, if you're worried about their defense right now, timing seems a little bit off to add John Morant in there. True. I think long term, they do have a lot of issues about how they're going to fill certain voids. Obviously, the Nikhil void didn't just paper itself over very quickly. There but also, I think the Dillingham thing has been pretty much a failure at this point. I don't have much hope that it will sort itself out. But what do you have to even trade Memphis in that scenario? Yeah, I don't know. Because they don't have picks because of the Dillingham situation. And I don't think Dillingham or any of their young guys are super interesting. Maybe they again, a center and Johan Berry just.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just ain't trading Baron J. Come on. From my cold dead fingers, if I'm.

[Kyle Mann]

Minnesota, I actually think Baron J is interesting to the Wolves and a lot and would be potentially to a lot of teams. But that's the sort of market you're tapping into with him and Dillingham both is not. Are you trying to be competitive right now? But do you believe in these guys in three years, effectively? Like, can you. Can you buy what they could be down the line? That's a tough sell for the John Moran Grizzlies or the John Morant less Grizzlies. I guess in this hypothetical, I think.

[Justin Ferrier]

If you want to play devil's advocate here and say, like, if there is any sort of optimism, maybe this is just like holding him accountable in action. Like, actually it looks bad because this is what accountability looks like. And actually this in the long run is in their best interest to suspend him. Say, like, we're not going to put up with your shit.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah.

[Justin Ferrier]

And you actually have to earn your way there. Like kind of what people are saying about some of the gambling stuff going on where it's like, actually this is. We're catching more of this stuff now and so we're more aware of it and so we have to police it. Is this actually this coming to light for job?

[Kyle Mann]

I. I appreciate, Justin your want to be the devil's advocate. This is what you do, you know, like, you're very good at standing on these ledges. I would have optimism, truly, always. I would bet we can pull a clip that is almost word for word what you just said from when John Morant was suspended and barred from the team and said like, you know, checked himself in in Florida, you know, it's like, oh, this is the. This is what accountability looks like. This is the real moment for him. This is the turning point. Like, how many. How many turning points does a guy get? You know, like, how many opportunities does he have to have, like, actual accountability?

[Justin Ferrier]

I know. And that's the big thing with the Portland thing as well. It's like too many strip clubs per capita.

[Kyle Mann]

Okay.

[Justin Ferrier]

Put a guy in anywhere near place where, yeah, they're a little bit more than probably he's used to. But, you know, we all, we all adapt.

[Rob Mahoney]

Portland, are they stripping off their Pendleton woolware? What are they. What's going on at. I just can't picture that. I don't know. I mean, I can picture that, but I just can't picture that. I'll choose not to. But anyway, I'm sorry.

[Justin Ferrier]

Since we're talking about the great culture of Portland, let's talk about the team on the court right now. Everywhere I go, they ask me, sir, when are we going to talk about the mighty Portland Trailblazers? And they're small ball lineups. I go to the grocery store, the girls are the little lasses and lads are pulling on my coat and saying, please talk about Drew Holliday's steady veteran leadership. I'm like, we will eventually. Eventually. When the rest of the podcast acknowledges how good this season has been, we will do it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sounds like the lamest Charles Dickens novel ever. Just little kids on the street.

[Kyle Mann]

Tough competition for that. Charles Dickens low key sucks. But we should say the Portland swear jar has been implemented this season for any time. Justin brings up the Blazers in in a manner in which we think is uncalled for. We all signed off on doing a Blazers oriented segment of some time today, thus illustrating their power, thus illustrating just how good they've been this season. They're kind of undeniable at this point. They've been one of the best stories of the early season. They look absolutely ferocious defensively in a way that is building on everything they had, especially at the tail end of last year. Like they just got something.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, it's ironic because their past two drafts, they've drafted two big old boys, like not just centers but like colossal men. But their best lineups and the ones that have caught my eye are these small ball lineups where they're just putting a bunch of wings guarding the entire length of the floor and basically being like all of your players need to show that they can dribble, which unfortunately, Cam Johnson did not pass that test late in the game the other night. But I think that that Denver game, which was of course an NBA cup game, which, you know, only the, the, the best rise to the top in, in the cup action. I, I think it really showed the blueprint in action and I think it validated some of the things that we've been noticing over the good stretch. I think in the midst of drafting the bigs and taking swings on really Talented guards and Scoot and Shaden Sharp, they've really backloaded the roster with a bunch of wings. Practically whenever they could they were just taking flyers on wings. I wrote about it basically last year when I did thing focused on too many. Kamaru has been the best of them, but they're just guys on top of guys where like when they need them they just have a lot of length in stock. And I think down the stretch of the Denver game was like proof of action of that kind of philosophy, which isn't all that different than a lot of other organizations coming to bear. Where Shaden Sharp played really well to start the fourth quarter, they were basically starting spamming him getting downhill against Jonas Valencunas and he scored a bunch of points. But because their team and their identity springs from these two way wing type of guys, we're going to defend everything. And that decision was made easy when Tomani and Denny popped last year. They really kind of just decided that that was going to be their North Star. They rode Chris Murray down the stretch who by and large not that great of a player. But he was bringing it defensively. And you see what happens when they turn over Cam Johnson or when they're just making things difficult to get up the court and then like all of a sudden you're trying to get away and whoop to money is there trying to draw a charge because he's an absolute pest and like the biggest thing Rob was like Jeremy Grant guarding Jokic with, in tandem with Drew Holiday where they were kind of doing an inside out thing. He actually kind of flustered him for, for most of that stretch there. And so it's working. There's obviously concerns offensively and just like how much they can keep up the pace. But like it's looking very good thus far.

[Kyle Mann]

It's baffling to watch Jeremy Grant NBA center, like kind of work. I still have my, my doubts and my reservations about it. I still like them best when they have an actual big out there that feels the most solid to me. It feels the most secure to me. Maybe this is my big man bias showing. But what you're saying, like the Rob Williams revival, I mean that's all fine. Like he's among them for sure. Yeah, like I just want, like I want them to have the option of you know, leaning even harder on the offensive rebounds in the way that like Clingan in particular allows them to do of having the, you know, the presence in the middle so that all these guys can fly around on the perimeter and bait out Steals and do all that. Like, I want the balance of that structure ultimately. But you're right about the interchangeability of a lot of these wings. And I think some of it is like, I kind of like what Chris Murray is doing. Like, I kind of like what a lot of these guys are bringing to the table. Even the lesser wings on the roster. For a team that seemed pretty shallow, like, seemed like they were going to have to plug and play their starters in various combinations to make it all work. And then all of a sudden, you just see guys coming off the bench and giving them important and meaningful minutes to the. To the point that when you look over the course of these games, the starters are largely getting punked together. Like, when that group plays together, they're losing those minutes almost every timeout. It's all of the regularly assembled interchangeable wing combinations throughout that are just making it. Here's just like 30. 30 minutes of other stout defense. You know, like, here. Here is a way to construct a lifeline through the course of a game just based on energy and effort and youth and the enthusiasm of all these young guys who know how to guard. I just think it really works as. As like the. The baseline of an organization right now.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, Justin, you said it. I mean, it's interesting that they had this. This central goal of like, okay, let's get these two sort of scoring tilted guards with Scoot and with Shaden. And you think, okay, this is our vision. And some of the draft coverage we did, I was like, predicting that maybe they should get a passing big guy to play between them. But you're right. Like, the. The stuff that has really popped. You were saying that it was. I don't remember what adg, if you use, but I was. I was watching them and I was like, it's not beautiful basketball in the. In the traditional way. The traditional Portland teams that we've seen over the year, if any city has, like, a basketball personality, if anything, Maybe the early 90s blazers that had a little bit of more of that punch you in the mouth, dunk on you kind of thing going on. But. And Rob, you said it too. Like that that smaller lineup that they went with against Denver's second unit, which was sharp, Abdia Kamara, Jeremy Grant and Drew, they didn't just challenge Denver to do things offensively. Man, they were really killing them with, like, really athletic, fast cutting Peyton Watson. I thought Aaron Gordon was about to ring Peyton Watson's neck like a cartoon. Like, it was. He was just like, what.

[Kyle Mann]

What do you do?

[Rob Mahoney]

And. And over and over again. I mean, Denny has just become. He's just blossomed into this. His ball handling has just taken such a leap, man. I mean, like, getting it so physical. Getting it. He was bullying Jamal Murray. So these are like, they're not gigantic lineups, but they're kind of crammed in that middle zone where they are long, they are very, very fast. And Cam Johnson, man, just throughout that game was just getting. I don't. I wanted to gauge with you all, like, is if you want to just do a quick tack on from last week. Is this anything? Is this. Well, I forget that. Whatever. Is this a thing? Is Camp Johnson defense a thing? Because OKC is similar in their build in the types of teams that they play. They're going to have to beat OKC at least. MPJ was like, when health. He could give you some of the weak side contest thing. He's big. He can jump, man. Cam in that game, I don't know if it was that they weren't interested in the. In the cup or whatever it was or he's not feeling good. But in particular in this game, I thought they were just really, really taxing him in a way, was jumping off the screen to me.

[Kyle Mann]

Has Camp Johnson's defense ever been a thing?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, holding up has always been the goal for him. He didn't hold up in this game.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, I noticed the lack of size because I'm used to MPJ being out there. At the very least, he'll, like, when he's activated, be on the boards or just be a big body soaking up space, which I think is particularly advantageous against Portland because, yeah, they are fast and feisty, but there's a lot of just girth and size and strength to all of those wings. Like, try boxing out Jrue Holiday, who's a fucking brick out there. And Cam Johnson doesn't really bring that physical aspect. We'll see. But, like, especially when he's not hitting, he does stand out for Denver. Like, is like, what else are we doing out here?

[Kyle Mann]

Yes. But I'm glad you zeroed in on, like, the way that Portland's physicality impacts their offense as well. Right. It is not just them getting into people's jerseys. It's the way that they can go after the Cam Johnsons. It's. It factors into the speed they play with too. Because if you're going to be the second fastest offense in the league short of Miami and have this kind of wiry physicality to you, that's when you see everything that's coming out in Denny's game right now where like Denny Abdia is not the quickest first step in the league and teams just like cannot keep him out of the paint right now. And a lot of that is because of all the transition and semi transition stuff that Portland has going for them and because even if you kind of get in front of him, Denny can bump you out of the way. And he's getting better and better at drawing fouls. He's getting better and better at like moving so quickly on the catch. Like that to me is kind of the emblem of the team Portland is and wants to be is like how do we channel that sort of downhill momentum all the time. And you can only do that if you're as physical as these guys are.

[Justin Ferrier]

Yeah, the offense is always going to be the big concern. I think the defensive success I think we could have projected based on the personnel like not only is it the wings, but Clingan is obviously a huge deterrent there. And getting Rob Williams back, I mean should have won defensive player of the year. So if he's giving 15 minutes there, he just works so well off of what they've already established. It's always been the offense. It's basically can they tread water? Is there enough there collectively and ironically enough, Shaden Sharpe has basically had a showcase opportunity and all of a sudden he kind of flubbed it right the preseason he looked great. He just like could not miss a shot especially in that first game against Golden State. He just like really doesn't have it going right now to the point where like when he was hitting in that game he was very intentional about like we're going to go to Shaden, he's going to get his versus all these other guys that could just play so beautifully within the flow of things. Denny in particular is so good at that matching not only just like the more European like I could do anything in the flow of this with the physicality he's taken a certain leap. I think Jeremy Grant has been reborn at this point as a six man score. I think part of that is like maybe just the team had bigger expectations and he seems to me to be the type of guy who will wax and Wayne depending on like where we are. Like if the team's not going well, but if it's going well I'm going to play up there. And obviously he has more veterans there. Drew's a guy more of his age. Dame is there just hanging out like that. Plus the bench role. I think scoring against second units has really like, like reengaged that part of him. But I think Drew has just been an absolute, like, shocker to me because I think there was a lot of data to suggest based on last year, that that might have been it. When I first saw him, I was like, this dude is like chiseled. Like he's lean as hell, but still like a tank. And so he looked even more fit than when I saw him almost a decade ago in New Orleans when I was covering that team with him. But he just has, like this steadying presence. And if you look at a lot of the crunch time plays that they've been in, they've been in a lot of close games late. Like, he just has the ability to be so calm and chaos that, like, right now they're getting by with all of this stuff. I think at a certain point there's gonna be a Rubber meets the Road moment. It could be this week when they play Luca and then OKC is in town where it's like, oh, we gotta go star for star. Like, where is the juice coming from?

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Rob made a face when you said Jeremy Grant was reborn. I didn't know if he had something to say. I was just waiting. I was just watching.

[Kyle Mann]

I think reborn is charitable. I would say he woke up from resuscitated, a two year long nap.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, tomato, tomato.

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah, he wasn't killed. He decided to go to sleep. That, to me, is kind of the fundamental difference in the Jeremy Grant experience. But, Justin, I feel you speaking from like a very personal place of like, Drew Holiday. His peer shows up and all of a sudden he feels reinvigorated. It's like I'm imagining you in a room of 20 somethings trying to not blow your brains out. And then like all of a sudden, one person in their mid-30s shows up and you just can't stop talking to them. You know, you're just clinging to their side.

[Justin Ferrier]

That's not where I thought you were going, but I'm glad you went in that direction. Thank you.

[Rob Mahoney]

I had no clue where that was going.

[Justin Ferrier]

Such a Homer.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's amazing how quickly you have become such a Boston or a Boston Portland Homer. Justin, it's.

[Kyle Mann]

No, it's egregious, frankly. You're in the unprofessional.

[Justin Ferrier]

I'm aware.

[Rob Mahoney]

I love Portland as much as the next person, man. I mean, shout out to the screen door, El Gaucho. Shout out, kd. Say really good heart coffee. But, you know, I don't know you. You really. I don't know, with Your wishy washy Yukon fandom. I'm just kind of like, what is. What's with this guy? He's just. He's all jv.

[Kyle Mann]

Are there. Are there any other establishments of other kinds you want to shout out? It seems like you have a rich understanding of the area.

[Rob Mahoney]

The strips you mentioned, you know, beyond that.

[Kyle Mann]

That's what I'm talking about.

[Justin Ferrier]

All the vegan strip clubs. Do you want me to just list where I'll be on a daily basis?

[Kyle Mann]

I mean, that's up to you, I guess. You know, if you don't want to make your. Your whereabouts known. I do understand that a gentleman does prefer his privacy.

[Justin Ferrier]

I mean, I'm mostly just going back and forth between my place and the grocery store. So if you want to check me out at a Trader Joe's by you. No, I mean, heart is actually where I get my coffee beans, so definitely got to shout them out. I'm there once a week. Little keeper coffee action on the side. You know, a little compliment, little power.

[Kyle Mann]

It's important. Sure, yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Need it.

[Justin Ferrier]

In addition to the offense, can we just address one last concern here for Portland, or am I exhausted how much I'm allowed to talk?

[Kyle Mann]

I'm taking this as like, the opportunity for you to get this out of your system, you know, like, really tire yourself out. Because it's going to be a minute before we can dedicate a whole segment to the Blazers again.

[Justin Ferrier]

They lost Matisse. Thibel, who is playing really well, really hasn't missed a shot since he came back late in last season. Also, Blake Wesley went down in this game. He was literally their only guard off the bench. And when you carry Dame as like, just a non entity for this entire year, and obviously Scoop goes down, the backcourt is looking very thin very quickly. And I think to Rob's earlier point, I think they're going to struggle to play at this pace, at this intensity over the course of the season. And so they have depth, but they really need to be too deep in order to make this all work. And I do worry that they might not have that if. If, like, something strikes with Drew, for instance, like, does this all fall apart so quickly?

[Kyle Mann]

Well, not if something happens with Drew. Like, I'm not trying to jinx the man, but he's basically co leading this team in minutes right now. Like, that is not what you want for Jrue Holiday. It's not. It shouldn't be the plan. And they're doing it out of necessity, and they're doing it because he's been so good. And I think all those things are totally justified. But we would all like to see a resolution that does not involve Drew Holiday running himself into the ground trying to keep pace with an offense this fast.

[Rob Mahoney]

They're really depending on. It's the, it's the classic thing. I mean, they're really depending. They're leading the league in like threes generated in transition. So they're really depending on that. I feel like as sort of a. Whatever it is, the. What is it where you slap it on the glass and the, the flex seal, they're depending on that for the, for the flex seal.

[Justin Ferrier]

For that.

[Rob Mahoney]

I guess just.

[Justin Ferrier]

We're talking about strip clubs again.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, you're slapping in your mind when.

[Kyle Mann]

It'S happening to this podcast.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know. I didn't do that.

[Justin Ferrier]

We're not used to the time. This is all over the place right now.

[Kyle Mann]

We bring in Kyle and all we talk about is strip clubs. I would not have anticipated it.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm just trying to get us in the right algorithms, guys. But no, I mean, that's, that's a typical thing with younger athletic teams. I mean, if you can't gener, you want to try to find it where you can. So, yeah, I mean, in a half court situation, I think they're going to have a whole new set of questions and they're going to need those other guys back for sure.

[Justin Ferrier]

All right. When we wrap it there, unfortunately, we'll be back on Wednesday. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you Isaiah Blakely. We'll talk to you next time. Must be 21 + and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 2476, support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.