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The Ringer NBA Show
Is Expansion Good for the NBA? Plus, Kevin Durant Voices His Frustrations | Real Ones
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- [00:00]
Logan Murdock
This episode is brought to you by Netflix. All right, baseball fans, get ready. For the first time in history, the major league season kicks off with one exclusive opening night game live on Netflix.
- [00:10]
Howard Beck
The New York Yankees, led by seven
- [00:12]
Logan Murdock
time all star Aaron Judge, roll into the San Francisco Bay to battle Rafael Devers and the San Francisco Giants. The wait is over.
- [00:18]
Howard Beck
It's time to play ball.
- [00:20]
Logan Murdock
Watch MLB opening night the New York Yankees versus the San Francisco Giants live on Netflix. Wednesday, March 25th at 8:00pm Eastern Time, 5:00pm Pacific Time.
- [00:32]
Howard Beck
Monster Energy. Everybody knows White Monster, Zero Ultra, that's the OG. It kicked off this whole Zero Sugar Energy drink thing. But Ultra is a whole lineup now. You've got Strawberry Dreams, Blue Hawaiian Sunrise and Vice Guava. And they all bring the Monster Energy punch.
- [00:50]
Cliff
So if you've been living in the
- [00:51]
Howard Beck
white can branch out. Ultra's got a flavor for every vibe and every single one is zero sugar. Tap the banner to learn more. What's poppin Real ones? Logan Murdoch here, Howard Beck in a second. No Raja today, but we get into a lot on the program. We talk about expansion in the NBA. Is it good or bad? And what does this mean for Adam Silver's legacy? Big legacy Adam Silver talk. And then to add to the legacy talk, we talk about Kevin Durant. What's his legacy. What's going on here. Big great Michael Lee story which is down below. Go look at that in the show bio. Really, really good story on Kevin Durant and his scoring output as he approaches Jordan on the all time scoring list. Then we talk about a little bit about Luca in the mailbag, which was, which was fun. Where's Russell Westbrook going to end up next year? Year? A lot of fun stuff on the program. I think that's it. Real onesmailback gmail.com real onesmail bag gmail.com real ones mailbag gmail.com cliff play theme music. What's poppin Real one? Logan Murdoch here, Howard back there. Fresh off of stage in Brooklyn with Zach Lowe. Looking good, man. I mean big time putting on for the fam.
- [02:21]
Logan Murdock
I mean wild night. Wild night at the Brooklyn Paramount.
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Howard Beck
You look like it now.
- [02:29]
Logan Murdock
We had, we had a blast. Sam Morrell, the comedian joined us on stage. David Jacoby was there. Zach, of course, myself. We had a great time. Amazing turnout, great energy in the building. And yeah, lots of Knicks talk. Lots of, lots of angsty Knicks fans in the house. It's an angsty time.
- [02:52]
Howard Beck
Is it never not an angsty time for Knicks fans.
- [02:55]
Logan Murdock
No.
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Howard Beck
I feel like that's a New York
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Logan Murdock
thing, right there was probably like within this five year or so run here where they've actually been good again. I think there were a couple moments of like pure, just unbridled joy and optimism and like there's no bad ending, doesn't matter. You know, we're just great. It was just great to be relevant again, that kind of feeling. But like with any team and especially here, like I. That wears off, right? So at a certain point it's like the, the angsty part right now is like they're, they're headed for like their third straight 50 win season, which they hadn't done since the early 90s. So big picture, it's all great but like small picture, it's like. But are they good enough to get past Boston? Are they good enough to get past Cleveland, Detroit? What if they don't win at all? You know, you know they're going to blow it up. Are they going to get hasty again and rash with their decision making? Like it's, you know, Knicks fans are feeling it because they're not sure if there's enough there. They're frustrated by Kat, they're frustrated by Mikhail Bridges. Like, yeah, there's some stuff I struggle
- [03:55]
Howard Beck
to reconcile if it's easier to be a fan of a winning team or a losing team. I'm obviously a fan of a perpetual losing team. And it's easy to be, it's easier in a way to be a fan of a losing team with no expectations because they can always, you know, defy those expectations. But it's almost like harder to be a fan of a winning team because you have those expectations and you don't know how long they are going to last when you are good. So I, I feel for Knicks fan, you know, who else is going to be potentially going through that in the future? The fan bases of Seattle and Las Vegas. Because the NBA, according to Sham Sharania, will hold a vote at the Board of Governors meetings next week to explore adding an expansion team exclusively to Vegas and Seattle. With the new franchises being targeted to play in the 2829 season, I believe that's two seasons now or two or three seasons from now. There's momentum within the Board of Governors in the league office to approve moving forward. We're taking bids for Las Vegas and Seattle. According to sources with knowledge the situation industry executives proposals in the $7 to $10 billion range for each team and estimate that both markets will be among the NBA's top eight revenue generators. The market appeal of Las Vegas and Seattle, a growing number of owners are expected to support the expansion because of the long term revenue growth of Las Vegas and Seattle. And this is what we're gonna talk about. This is probably the best distinction, best distinction of why this may not work. And you've heard about this expensively. But some owners remain hesitant on selling some of the shares and having their league equity go for 1 1/3 to 1 1:32. This will likely have some ramifications with teams in that Minnesota Timberwolves or the Grizzlies may move to the Eastern Conference to align with the conferences to have 16 teams each. This is the first this would be the first expansion since 2004 when the Charlotte Bobcats were put into the league to backfill after the Hornets left to become the Hornets. We kind of know where you are on this based on the extensive writing that you have had on the site. Go read that on the ringer.com we will have the stories that we are about to reference from Howard in the show bio. We know that you've written extensively about how this may dilute the talent of the league, but bigger overall question, Howard, what does it say about where the league is going right now?
- [06:35]
Logan Murdock
I'm not surprised that we're here. There have been so many signs pointing this direction now for years. Right. That they're going to expand that it feels inevitable. If they do it, it'll be two teams. It's in the in the two cities that seem most likely were Seattle because the Sonics should have never left there in the first place, in Vegas because It's become the NBA's second home. Basically. Like it always felt like it was going this direction. I think before I get to to your question, one of the things that strikes me about this is that they're not doing the traditional ev even if it were not truly a thorough process, they're not doing the traditional open it up for bids. And Adam Silver had been hinting at that the last couple years as every time the expansion came up it was always like, well, we can't presuppose which cities because it'll be a bid process. Well, suddenly the, the focus is only on those two cities and it's fine. Like those are two very logical places for the league to go. But you know, I think of like, you know, like the flirtations with are we going to expand to Mexico City or which I think Adam Silver would love to do at some point. Maybe it's just too soon for that. Kansas City, Cincinnati, Louisville. I'm trying to think of like the other cities, you know, that.
- [07:46]
Howard Beck
The NBA, St. Louis maybe.
- [07:48]
Logan Murdock
Yeah, I mean, I can't remember like who else?
- [07:50]
Howard Beck
Hampton, I think Virginia beach is also kind of flirted with it as well. I know that back in the day when Kings kind of did one of those sham things. Anaheim, also San Diego, which I don't think is gonna happen.
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Logan Murdock
Yeah, I mean, I like, you know, I, I just, I figured there might be more of a. Even if they knew, they would prefer Vegas in Seattle for the purposes of driving up prices of the, you know, the, the franchise fee and for the purposes of just making sure you've explored all your options. But maybe they've already done that internally. Maybe they just determined we don't care what the bids would be or the appeal would be of any of these other cities. We know where we want to be. We, we need to be back in Seattle after this 18 year, it'll be, you know, 20 plus years hiatus when they get back. And, and you know, they've got all these ties to Vegas, so I, I guess I'm just surprised that they've decided instead of an open bid process, it's going to be a two team or two city process here. The money was always going to be the fir, the biggest hurdle, right. They're, they're making a gajillion as a league. It's split 30 ways. That gajillion that has to be split 32 ways instead. So you want franchise fees big enough to, to offset that and induce the current owners to, to go ahead and make the deal. And if, and if you are making less year over year because it's split 32 ways instead of 30, well, you, you get a pretty big payout from the franchise fee at the front. You know, if it's going to be 10 billion per franchise split 30 ways, maybe that's enough inducement and maybe some of those owners are going to sell before they ever have to worry about does it work out at the back end anyway. I don't care about that part of it, to be honest, Logan. It's an, it's an obstacle potentially and a, and a debate for the owners themselves and when they meet here in New York next week, and I'll probably be at that board of Governor's presser with, with Adam when they meet, you know, they'll discuss the math of it all because this is ultimately a money thing. Fine. I, what kills me on this and, and you know where I'm going, like this should be a basketball discussion. I, I know that sounds crazy and Naive. It should be a basketball discussion. And to me, the basketball discussion is, what does this do to the product? And so when you ask me what does it say about the league, what it tells me is that the league is making so much fucking money right now that they are. That. That that's the only consideration. And it goes back to what I wrote a couple weeks back about, you know, the league and Adam Silver and all the, the challenges in front of them. You know, they've got these tanking issues and gambling issues and cap circumvention issues and load management issues and all these other things. Is this the right time to be expanding? Like, solve the stuff you've got in front of you first? And on top of that, you're about to exacerbate a lot of issues, I think, by diluting the league. When you add two teams, by definition, you add two more very, very bad teams. There's no such thing as an expansion in which you add two good teams. So it's interesting. I, as much as. Listen, we all love Seattle. All of us who covered the league back in the day are really happy
- [10:52]
Howard Beck
to be very excited. I'll be right up there. I'll be flying. I'll be doing the first. I'm telling you this now. I will be doing the first ringer piece out of Seattle. I will be the one that is flying up for that. I can't wait. We'll.
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Logan Murdock
We'll all be arm wrestling for it. I, I've. I've said many times over the years, I would love to see the NBA back in Seattle, but it should be by relocation and not by expansion.
- [11:13]
Howard Beck
Yeah. So you brought up an issue when obviously with the money. Right. And this isn't just an NBA issue in terms of expansion and expanding and trying to make. As you're making money, trying to make more money. We're starting to see this with the NFL, right? With all of the extra games and all of the attempts to fulfill the gaps of all the streaming services. Right. The NFL is starting to have like a Wednesday night. They're making up holidays and making up days of why they should add games to the, to the calendar. Right. And they're diluting their brand in a, in a different, in a much different way. Right. But I think the same thing goes, the same comparison is true between the NFL and the NBA in that they're not really focused on the game of it all, the product of it all. It's more about just selling the product. And we've seen that in so many different Ways. Right. I think Adam Silver will say he got misquoted when he said, oh, you can just watch the highlights of the games and you know, it really doesn't matter where. You know, if you have to find it, it's going to be there. But you can just watch YouTube the next day. It's fine. Just. But that's an example the, the experimentation of this in season tournament which doesn't really help with the, the quality of the game because you're asking a team essentially to play an extra game if they go to the championship and, and then also derail their schedule in the middle of the season. Say like if, like the Knicks for instance, have to have it, have an impromptu trip to Vegas in the middle of their season to have a, to win a cup that doesn't really exist and something I didn't care about to put a banner up. Right. But there's all of these different things where they aren't putting a premium on the product. I wonder when that gives. Right. Because they're not going to, you know, as much as we like to say hey, let's go down to 72 games, let's get a better product, let's, let's sell a better product, it's going to be dilute, dilute, dilute, dilute. I wonder if there is a end game here on that that could end up negatively for this league. Howard. And not just this league. I'm talking about the sports in general because we're just in such a sports gold rush where the product, the players, I don't know if they can sustain the weight of all of this just going forward. I'm really concerned about the next generation. But I throughout all of this capitalism that is going on not just in the NBA, but sports abroad.
- [13:39]
Logan Murdock
Yeah, I listen the, there's this case to be made or a philosophy. I think that more NBA is always better, more basketball is better and that two more teams means two more markets with passionate fan bases, more jerseys to be sold, more games to be programmed on the streaming services and the over the air services and that it's all good. It all, it all just Kel helps the game keep growing and I get that. But I, I think, you know, we're also in a time when we keep talking about the toll that the modern game is taking on players. Steve Kerr, you know, lobbying again, you know, last week a couple of times for shortening the season and the MBA's never wanted to do it because if you shorten the season then that's less inventory to put on tv and then are you taking less money from the networks, in which case everybody makes less. Like they could afford to do that. But I actually do wonder, like, could you do these things in tandem with each other? You're going to have more inventory just by having two more teams playing 82 game seasons. Does that backfill the inventory if you dropped from, from 82, 72 games? I mean, like, I, I, I wonder if they will talk about any of these things in concert with each other. I suspect not. I suspect that everybody's going to religiously hold to the 82 game schedule because that's just what it's always been and it's too scary to, to, to change. But in terms of the quality of the game, this would be a way to address that, Right? Well, we're going to expand. It's going to dilute the talent. Yes. But offset that by saying, well, we've, we've now solved our, our, our inventory issue. Now we can cut the schedule down and not hurt the amount of games that we could put on on national tv. I, I don't know if that conversation is happening. I, my biggest concern as a fan of the game and as somebody who's covered the game for almost 30 years, I just think you're going to have a lot of bad basketball, Logan. Like, I don't think there's any way around this. Like, look at what, and you can say that the Jazz and you know, they've got some discernible talent now at least. But like, when you, when you think about like the Jazz or the, the Nets, the Wizards, the teams have been tanking any of the last two to three years, you could say, well, they did that on purpose. Right. They shed all their talent to be this bad so that they could play the lottery odds. But if that's the case, if, if you can intentionally build a roster that's that bad, then that talent, if there is enough talent in the league, should be making other teams that much stronger. And it's not really the case. We just have a bunch of really bad teams and you're going to add two more. And everybody in the process, through the expansion draft, through two more teams, being in free agent competition with teams, everyone's going to lose a little bit. Right. Like the key to the modern NBA. What do we always talk about? Oh, depth is so huge now. Right. We don't have super teams for the most part. You don't have two, three, four superstars on one team. You might have one. You're lucky if you've got two. You better get a damn good third, fourth, fifth starter. First three guys off the bench. Well, that. That great seventh man you got, he's now on the expansion team.
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Howard Beck
But Howard, that's the other thing.
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Logan Murdock
And taking 30 shots a night, that's
- [16:51]
Howard Beck
the thing that annoys me about the. The owner's line of, oh, we want parody and all these things because they speak out of both their side of their mouth. They don't want parody. They want money. You know, they want to make sure that their costs are down and that they could have a hard cap so they don't have to pay the players. And then because they say they want parity, on the other hand, they're like, oh, yeah, we'll take expansion to get this other check here. That's cool. Yeah, definitely. Let's go ahead. Even though it doesn't make any sense, the other thing that I would add to what you're saying is the thing that the NBA has that the NFL doesn't is they have a lot of games. A lot of games. You see a lot of the NBA and the NBA. There's always a running joke of, oh, the NBA season doesn't start till around Christmas, right? There's all these games that the NBA says, you know, doesn't matter. You know, there's a dog days here, and the NFL doesn't have that. Now. They're teetering on, you know, diluting their stuff because they're having so many more days. But what the point that I'm trying to make here is that the NBA has all of these dates and they have a. If you have all these days, that's diluting your game just in general, because you have a lot of games that, quote, unquote, don't matter for bad teams, which, you know, makes it easier for them to, quote, unquote, take. You're adding two more teams to that pot who are also bad in. In the whole algorithm of what we're talking about. And then you add to the fact that there's so many bad players. I think that there's. This is going to be a really, really, you know, hard sell going forward. I'm really scared of the product of basketball that we're going to see in general. And, you know, the. I can't imagine in, you know, 10 years if this goes bad. You know, we talked about the NBA taking their viewership for granted. But think about it, man. If there's a March game and all of these teams are bad, why would I want to go watch them play like, if I'm coming to, if I want to go to Chase center, bring my little homie there and such and such isn't playing and that's. Or, you know, the Seattle team comes or there's an expansion team comes and you know, there has been just years and years of just, you know, fucking over the fan that has, there has to be a tipping point. There just has to be. Right, like, right. Like it does feel like we are at an impasse of some sorts and we're getting all these sports leagues are getting so big and so big the ratings, ratings. It feels like there, there is another side of this to drop at some.
- [19:30]
Logan Murdock
And we won't know until we're there. I mean, I think that's the thing. Like the league can't know how fans are going to respond, right? They're, they're banking on the fact that, you know, Seattle fans are starving to have the Sonics back. Cool. Like, that'll work out fine. Like they're gonna, they're gonna sell out in Seattle immediately. They'll probably sell out in Vegas immediately. It's not the same as, as success, right? Like, selling out is not success. The revenue that comes in is not success. Are these expansion teams gonna have any sustained momentum behind them when it's not just whether it's the fan support or the revenue? Obviously, like I, I do think as a business matter, at least on day one, fans are, are, are going to flock to these teams. Like I, I, that part is, is easy. I think we can all like predict that Sonic's jerseys will fly off the fucking shelves and, and you know, Vegas, whatever they, they end up calling themselves, that'll, that'll do fine too. But what the league can't I, I think ascertain at this point, what they can only hope to imagine or project out, but is impossible to know because it's, it's just human nature when we can't predict. Human nature is, you know, will the momentum sustain itself? Will the product on the court turn fans off because the quality has gone down that much more. How frustrated will fans in like, you know, boss, let's say, like, you know, I'm thinking of like contenders right now, right? Detroit, New York, Oklahoma, San Antonio, wherever. When we've had an expansion draft and a free agency cycle or two, and suddenly your favorite sixth man is gone or the seventh man or whatever, and your team is like scrapping, trying to find two way players to like plug in the rotation and you're like, this sucks. My, you know, you know, I'M rooting for this team and they've done a really smart, you know, roster build, but they've lost guys because they had to fill 30 more roster slots in these other two new cities. Like there's gonna be a, a ripple effect. There will be, you know, anybody wants to look it up, like, go, go look at the opening night roster of the Charlotte bobcats in, in 0405. Whenever Raja Bell's Charlotte Bobcats, he was there a little later than that. But, but the, the expansion, the expansion draft was so bad that I think most of them, if I'm remembering correctly, most of the players that the Bobcats drafted didn't end up in, on, on the roster for opening night anyway. They, they drafted based on expansion draft rules, got their roster put together, but then they went into free agency, they made trades, they did other stuff and that was how they got, you know, the, the first opening night group. But it was a terrible, terrible team and was terrible for years after that. And this is the other thing I think about, Logan. I don't want to pick on Sacramento. I love Sacramento. As you know, I went UC Davis, I spent many, many, many quality years in that, in that area. But I'm going to pick on Sacramento real quick.
- [22:43]
Howard Beck
I love how you. Because it's not a popular Sacramento and I'm from there, but I went to UC Davis, which you're not like, you do got some distance and I'm from
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Logan Murdock
San Jose, so I'm not claiming Sacramento roots. Yeah, I'm, I'm just saying like in beat writer circles and especially during all my, my heavy travel beat writer years, I was always defending Sacramento because everybody was bagging on it as being one of the places they didn't like traveling to. And I was like, no, no, Sacramento's cool. It's got its charms, blah, blah. And yes, the sidewalks roll up at like 8 o'.
- [23:11]
Cliff
Clock.
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Logan Murdock
But, you know, okay, all right, so I was the one that usually defending Sacramento and I actually enjoyed it. Here's the thing, Logan. If you're Vivek ran a dive and you haven't exactly been, you know, you haven't exactly glorified yourself as an owner in the first place. You struggled. You're about to vote to not only have this, this, you know, like the revenue maybe takes care of itself, but you're going to divide the pie now by 32 instead of 30, and you're inviting two teams in your time zone, in your region, effectively of the country that are both higher destination places. Again, I wouldn't choose to live in Vegas over Sacramento. I like Sacramento, and I'm not a big Vegas guy, but players love Vegas, and a lot of people love Seattle, period.
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Howard Beck
Players or not famous love Vegas, too, by the way. Famous people really love Vegas. They love to hide out there.
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Logan Murdock
Yeah, people with a lot of money love Vegas. So if you're Sacramento, if you're the Salt Lake City Jazz, if you're some of the other places in the Western Conference in particular that are fighting, trying to just get talent on your roster, like, why are the Jazz tanking? Because they need talent through the draft because they're not a destination for free agents, and it's hard to get guys to come, even in trade, because they will do everything possible if they don't want to be there to dissuade your team from trading for them. I'm not resigning. I'll make noise. I'll be a pain in the ass. So if you're some of these other markets you're going to invite him to, you know, I don't want to say, like, necessarily big markets. Seattle is a big market. Vegas is big. Ish. But they're glamour markets, they're destination cities. They're places that are going to be more appealing to a lot of players than you. Sacramento. I'm sorry, and why are you inviting that in? If you're the owner of the Kings, if you're the owner of the Jazz, if you're the owner of certain other teams, like, I don't know, man, like, I, I, I would be weighing all of that. But easy for me to say. I'm not the one with the, you know, the massive stack of dollar bills being thrown at me in the form of a $10 billion expansion fee for each team.
- [25:18]
Howard Beck
I want to talk about the Adam Silver of it, all. Right. Because he is you. We mentioned this at the top of the top of the program. Just all of the things that he is going through right now. Right? The Clippers investigation. Right. The, the tanking. By the way, he. For a guy that is going through a lot, he is really, in all intents and purposes, not around as much as you would like a commissioner to be. Right. He does. He's barely spoken about any of this stuff. He's kind of hidden in the, in the ivory tower, if you will, in New York for the most part. And, but what I do want to ask, though, is what is this season saying about him right now with all of this stuff that is going on is for somebody that is just in real time, always trying to manicure his legacy and just helping, thinking and figuring out what it's going to be. What is this saying about, about him right now, this season with all of the decisions that are happening, but also all the things that are happening around him, how he's responding?
- [26:21]
Logan Murdock
Yeah, I mean, listen, man, I wrote that column a month or so ago about all eyes are on Adam with all these crises that he's dealing with. There's never been this many, you know, like, massive weighty issues in the NBA at the same time during his tenure, during David Stern's tenure. Like, this is a, a serious moment with a lot going on. And the feedback I got from so many people around the league and past league employees as well was like, yeah, we're, we're, we're concerned too, and we're all watching at him too, and we're looking to see what he's going to do. And I, I, I feel like the, the, the dual track expansion here, the, the, you know, domestic expansion with Vegas and Seattle that seems almost a fade accompli at this point, and the European expansion that seemingly came out of nowhere like a year ago or so, it was all suddenly like, this was like the most important thing in the world out of the blue, and like, we're gonna try to launch it within. It feels to me like when you mentioned legacy, it's, it's tempting to look at this and think Adam wants to be the guy who finally planted an NBA flag overseas, not as an expansion of this league, but as an NBA property overseas. He wants to be the guy who finally conquers that front and to expand the NBA significantly for the first time in a long time. Right. Even with Charlotte coming in, that was just to, you know, backfill the Hornets leaving for, for New Orleans again. A mistake the NBA never should have made. They never should have let them leave. But this would be the first, you know, multiple team expansion since, you know, the early 90s and your mid-90s. And so is, is it, is it that, is this just a, the natural course of things that the league feels like? It's, it's in a position to do so financially, it's in the position to do so with the resources it has. This is just a natural growth that, like, we are, we're, we're doing this because it's inevitable. We're doing it because it's there, or are they doing it because on some level it's, it's a, it's, it is, I don't want to say like, you know, legacy building, but yeah, Maybe, maybe some part of it is like, Adam wants to be the guy who got to say, I, I expanded the league, I put us overseas, I put us back in Seattle and fixed that.
- [28:32]
Howard Beck
I fixed all of my predecessors mistakes. Right. Like, essentially. Right. I mean, whether that's fair or not. Right. But whether that's fair or not, I think that that is going to be at least something that is a criticism or a narrative that is bestowed upon him based on, you know, what you're saying. I think that other, the other thing is like, at least another question that I have for you, like, why does Adam Silver make us mythologize David Stern so much? Like, it feels like with all his actions, there's a ghost of David Stern in the background. Right? Like, and I think even with this expansion thing, there is still the ghost of him in a way that I don't think that other commissioners have to deal with.
- [29:14]
Logan Murdock
That's an interesting question. I don't know. I mean, it's hard for me to compare to the other sports, but you know, they're like, there's a very direct aspect of this, right, where it's on David Stern's watch that the league allows the Sonics to, To leave Seattle for Oklahoma City. And Adam is part of the NBA then, but not the one in charge. Whoever was in charge now was, Was going to be dealing with the fact that the league should have never left Seattle and wants to get back there. How you get back there is the thing. Again, they could just relocate a team instead of deciding to expand if you want to fix that particular hole. But the other aspects of it, I mean, Adam is definitely often judged by, by league people through the lens of. And you hear this sometimes. Like, I think David would have handled that differently or what if David were here? You know, like, it, it. It's a conversation. Like. I hate to say it. I, I hate to say it out loud because I've been part of these conversations with a lot of league people over the years, and it's a little unfair, but it's done. It. It does happen. Like, I, I hate to say it because, you know, we all really like and respect Adam, but David is a very imposing shadow and, And David had his faults, to be sure, and they are very different in the way that they lead, and they're leading very different leagues. Like, I don't think. You can't, you can't interchange them. You can't send this version of Adam Silver back to David Stern's tenure and have it work then. And I don't think David Stern's kind of imperious, you know, bullying version of leadership.
- [30:43]
Howard Beck
It's a different type of ownerships. They got so much more money now. Like, you can't just say, can't, David all you do it. Yeah, exactly. And you can't just SW the owners and be like, yo, everybody, let's get this done.
- [30:54]
Logan Murdock
So it's all the, the con, the, the conversations happen. They're unfair on some level, but we have them anyway. But I will say this. Adam Silver was just in Portland couple days ago to meet with local leaders and the Blazers themselves about. There was a, there was a, A, some measures approved locally to fund renovations
- [31:18]
Cliff
to
- [31:20]
Logan Murdock
the Rose Garden, what they now call the Moda Center, Their, their arena. And Adam Silver had kind of, you know, put some stuff out there last summer about, you know, hey, you know, we need to see something there. And like, there was like this vague kind of like Portland felt like the league was like, lightly threatening maybe, like, if you don't upgrade the, the arena or replace it, like, maybe you're going to lose the Blazers. And there was a lot of concern, too, because expansion not being on the, on the table yet. They were like, oh, will we lose? You know, are the, are the Blazers going to be moved to Seattle?
- [31:52]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [31:53]
Logan Murdock
So there's been a lot of this, right? So Adam goes to Portland a couple days ago, meets with all these people. Did not meet with the local media, did not speak to. My friend Bill Orem wrote about this in the Oregonian. I think today or yesterday that, that Adam Silver declined requests to speak to the local reporters, not just the Oregonian, but several other outlets that cover the Blazers. Now, he did sit for a brief interview with Brooke Olsendam from the Blazers TV network. But that's the, That's a, that's the. That's the team's team.
- [32:27]
Howard Beck
That's state media. It's not the same state media.
- [32:29]
Logan Murdock
Yeah, yeah, it's not. And, and no disrespect to Brooke. She's great, but like, but that's different. That is different. That's like when Leon Rose only does the sit down with MSG Network several years ago and doesn't talk to beat writers.
- [32:41]
Howard Beck
Right?
- [32:41]
Logan Murdock
It's the same thing. Adam Silver went to the friendly, you know, the friendly audience. Like, he did not meet with local media. And they asked, they requested multiple times. I don't understand why that happened. But, you know, to your point, he's. He's not necessarily been as available as David was. David would make the rounds. David would Bounce around the league over the course of the year.
- [33:04]
Howard Beck
He would do local radio all the time, you know. Yeah.
- [33:08]
Logan Murdock
And again, it's a different time, but Adam has speaks to something different this way.
- [33:12]
Howard Beck
But, but it just, it. It speaks to the time 1. But it also speaks to what I think is a fear that Adam Silver has of his own shadow in a lot of way.
- [33:23]
Logan Murdock
Right.
- [33:23]
Howard Beck
Like he's always scared of what his words are going to mean. And I think that there's a distinct difference that Stern, for all of his faults, did not have any fear of pretty much, I don't think anything, to be honest with you, just going to go full bore. He will call reporters on and off the record and tell them about themselves in his mind. Right. And Adam just doesn't do that. But I feel like in this time when, you know, public sentiment isn't on his side, it just seems like he's just kind of cowering under that. And this is kind of when you need a front facing leader to kind of steer the ship. And it seems like ever since this stuff has happened or the investigation has happened with the Clippers, he just has just kind of been running scared like this season as a whole. And I feel like there needs to be at least more outward leadership from him this time around as all of these things are happening. Right. Like we even talked about what's going on in the wnba. Like he doesn't even have a role in that. And that's an NBA property at a. At a point where the W is in the midst of maybe a strike or, you know, that that could be on the table from the PA side and might not have a season or might have a shortened season in a time where they're trying to expand and had to have the, you know, the most eyes that they've had on them when they need to get a deal done has not been. There's been MIA on that. Right. So he's been MIA on stuff that actually pertains to the league. He's been MIA on investigation that pertain to the league and he isn't speaking to the media. Like he just seems like someone that's just hiding in the ivory tower. And that's really disappointing. Right?
- [35:01]
Logan Murdock
Yeah. In fairness, I want to make sure I mentioned this. You know, Adam speaks several times a year and will be. Next week is one of these tent pole events. Right. Board of governors are meeting here in New York and Adam will speak at a press conference afterward as he usually does. He also does that after board of Governors meeting in Vegas In July, during summer league, he'll do it again in like September, October range. There are those. He will. He spoke at All Star Weekend. Of course. That's an annual thing. Speaks before game one of the finals. That's an annual thing. So there's all the tent pole press conferences, but those are press conferences and they're 25 to 30 minutes and there's, you know, only so many questions you can get in, and it's hard to drill down on any one particular topic because everybody's in the room, has their own, you know, stories that they're pursuing. And so you, you know, it's, it's, it's scattershot, but that's it. Those controlled environments, those press conferences are pretty much all he does. And then occasionally it's goes on with, you know, ESPN or, you know, one of the league's network partners. That's it. But doing interviews with local media especially, it just seems like it never happens. And you know, in the case of Portland, like, they're, you know, they're, they're weighing hundreds of millions of dollars in and I think taxpayer funds to, to upgrade the arena to, to keep the league happy with them or whatever. Like, that's a time when Adam should be talking.
- [36:20]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [36:20]
Logan Murdock
My thing is, like, they're talking local fans. Yeah.
- [36:23]
Howard Beck
If you try to take people's bread, at least like trying to soften them up before you do it. Right. If you're trying to, like, at least try to build some goodwill up, but then you go over there, try to take their money and then barely talk to them like, that's bullshit.
- [36:35]
Logan Murdock
It's. Yeah.
- [36:37]
Howard Beck
Last thing. Not on Adam Silver. Now we can talk about them Silver all day long. But there was one question I forgot to ask you that I want to ask to kind of put a bow on the expansion, say Seattle and Vegas happens, which seems like it's about to happen. What does that mean? Does that. If you're in New Orleans or Memphis, do you have a sigh of relief or are you still scared?
- [36:58]
Logan Murdock
In terms of relocation, in terms of
- [37:00]
Howard Beck
relocation, is there, is there, is there a backfield? That's going to happen. Are you, like, who. Because, I mean, I know New Orleans has a weird thing with its, its arena right now, so they could be on the move anyway. Their arena is probably the worst. Memphis has a good fan base, but I don't necessarily know if a lot of NBA people would. If you were. They wouldn't say it publicly, but if, if you were to get choose. Sir Mergotta, minute back, I Don't think a lot of them like Memphis as a market. So that being said, question goes back to you. Should the fans. Yeah.
- [37:31]
Logan Murdock
You know, what nervous city that we forgot to mention that I forgot to mention when I was saying, you know, if they'd had an open bid process. Nashville is another one. That's a, that's a pretty, pretty sizable city and already has an arena. Yeah. And, you know, you could, you could move the Grizzlies if they were, if you were moving them out of Memphis, just move them over to Nashville.
- [37:48]
Howard Beck
You got a, you know, Memphis would not like that. That would, that would not be.
- [37:52]
Logan Murdock
I'm sure they would not. Yeah. Like, I don't know that the league has ever seriously considered relocation for those franchises or any of the others in recent times. But I think especially in New Orleans with, you know, the, the, you know, the economy, fan base, resources, facilities, everything like it, it's a, it's in a,
- [38:14]
Howard Beck
it's in ownership not caring about them
- [38:17]
Logan Murdock
as a franchise, ownership not caring about them. Just ask any of their players. So I, I, I don't know if that's off the table, but I'm not sure if it was on the table. It's kind of in a murky area, so we'll see. I think the other interesting thing about the story from ESPN yesterday about, you know, this process for expansion is that it, it alluded to the, the idea that either Minnesota or Memphis will be moved to the Eastern Conference. I'm like, where did New Orleans fall out of this conversation? Because, like, if you're any of those three franchises, you all have a case based on the map to say we shouldn't be in the west. And every, you know, everybody wants to get moved to the East. Right. Like the, the, because the west has always just been forever and ever the, the stronger conference. So, like, that escape route, you know, I, I expect a lot of jockeying from those franchises that New Orleans wasn't mentioned was interesting. Maybe they've already decided it's only one of the other. Minnesota or Memphis, though.
- [39:13]
Howard Beck
Yes or no? Should they be concerned, which you didn't give a. I don't know. I don't have.
- [39:18]
Logan Murdock
I don't have a clear answer there. I'm sorry.
- [39:19]
Howard Beck
Okay. All right, do it. Let's take a quick break and talk about Kevin Durant. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by. FanDuel tournament is here and on FanDuel. It's time to dance. Right now, FanDuel is dropping bonus bets into everyone's account for the tournament. All you have to do is opt in to claim your bonus. Got an upset rolling with the one
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- [41:25]
Howard Beck
Quaker Bring out the good the ccpg.org chatinconnecticut Kevin Durant, who has not had a great last couple of months with Burner Gate and just honestly just where the Rockets are right now, didn't I don't know if you saw the game last night, but he didn't play particularly well against the Lakers, was 1 of 5 in the second half, committed six of his seven turnovers and expressed doubt on whether the Rockets benefited from him being the primary ball handler down the stretch of games. And I want to read you this quote and then we will get to the rest of what we were about to talk about. I just feel like it Just makes us stagnant. When I come across half court and they waited on me to drive, but I know they're coming to double, so I wait a split second. I just think the whole process is too slow and I just think that it's all on me because the team, when they see me, it just feels like one on five, to be honest. You know what I'm saying? Because I see two guys coming up in the corner to help at the elbows and guys at the boxes. It's almost like a zone when I get the ball up top, when I try to post up anywhere, it's going to be double team. So I'm trying to find out ways to open myself up and open my team. It's, it's. He's in a weird place right now because it feels like if you watch the Rockets at any point over the last few weeks, it seems like a team that doesn't trust each other. It seems team that is not connected. And for better or worse, this is all coming down on Katie. I have my opinion and I'll get it throughout the conversation, but we're the Rockets and Kevin Durant right now and this is also coming on the heels of an article that we are going to talk about from the great Michael Lee called Buckets Over Bullshit, the Real legacy of Kevin Durant. So I will ask you, what is the real legacy of Kevin Durant and what is this season done for that legacy? Howard?
- [43:17]
Logan Murdock
I mean, look, the Rockets as we speak are still fourth in the West. They're more or less around where they've been, you know, where they were projected. We thought they would be somewhere in that top tier, but because of how tightly the west is packed and the trend lines for them, and they've been pretty meh the last several weeks, like they could slip into the play in range. Like they're, you know, they're as, as it stands now, they're a game and a half out of third where the Lakers are and they are two and a half out of seventh, which is the Suns. So, you know, a slip here or there and you're at the bottom of the playoff bracket or you're down in the play in range. I don't know that this is a Durant thing, though. Like, Durant's numbers are still pretty good. Like it's incredible at age 37 what he's doing and at a high efficiency, too. There's. I don't know if where the veiled shots are in his quote, if that is that about the coach is that about personnel? Is that about everything? Shengun didn't play last night, so that's, you know, problematic for them too, because that's another big time scorer, but also playmaking hub. They never replaced Fred Van Vliet. And some of us, me said back in the fall they needed a playmaker. Like I. This idea that like Amend Thompson and Reed shepherd and everybody else were all, you know, everybody, everybody can all be playmakers. They'll be fine. They've got enough elite scoring options with Durant, Shagon and, and, and Amen Thompson. I just never bought it. I thought like, Fred Van Vliet was super important to them and you could see it when their offense gets stagnant and this is this kind of stuff that, that Durant's alluding to. So I, you know, I, I think everybody's pretty much kind of concluded at this point. The Rockets are not a serious threat in the west this season. Right? Like, the Lakers are surging and we're not even considering them a serious contender in the west, where I think most of us are focused on Oklahoma, San Antonio and we'll see. But this does feel like after this blockbuster trade for Durant, that Houston is not going to get what they hoped for out of it. Can they? You know, I don't want to jump too far ahead, but I, I already start to wonder, like, you know, is. Is Fred Van Vliet good enough coming back off of the, the acl, acl, right? Is. Is. Is Van Bleet going to be good enough that they can just say, you know what? We'll. Next season, we'll have the team that we thought we were going to have. Stephen Adams will be back too, because he's been hurt and we'll be fine. Or is there, is there, you know, some serious, you know, roster reconstruction that they need to do? But Durant's going to be 38 to start next season. No guarantee he has another season as productive as this one. And it's interesting too, man, because like, we've talked a lot about Steph, we talked about LeBron, like those three as they, they're, you're, you know, fading toward, you know, the horizon. LeBron's on a team that's third in the west, playing a different kind of role, but very viable as a playoff team. Steph, not so much because the warriors were just so injury wrecked, including the injury to him, but mostly Jimmy Butler. Durant's like, his, his numbers are spectacular and, you know, and the Rockets are, are relevant, but I just don't know how much of a run they've got in them.
- [46:31]
Howard Beck
There's a lot of moving parts here. Like, I'll start off by saying this, Durant's numbers are always awesome because individually, phenomenal basketball players.
- [46:42]
Logan Murdock
And he hasn't lost anything.
- [46:44]
Howard Beck
And he hasn't lost anything, which is crazy, right? So when I look at his stats, I. Not to say I take it for granted soft, because he is one of the greatest to ever play, and he is definitely raises the talent level of any basketball team. What I think is going to start to happen, though, what you're going to start to see is a pat. People are going to point out a pattern that when he comes to the team, the vibes tend to go down. Right. And I think in this case, on some levels, it's a little unfair because of what you said, the injuries, the lack of playmakers, all of those things. Right. And it's also wild that the Rockets, in hindsight, didn't go to try to go get a playmaker or didn't even try to get one at the deadline. Right. And kind of just stood pat when it was very clear what this roster needed. And so. But I think that when you look at the team that is put in place, there's a very clear lack of trust, there is a very clear lack of cohesion on this roster. There's a very just overall lack of bad juju. And that has been a pattern for the last few teams or pretty much every team that Durant has been on. Right. Like an okc. By the time he left, there was bad juju. By the time he leaves Golden State, very well documented. Me and you both cover that extensively. By the time he leaves Brooklyn, bad juju all around. There's obviously that is. Some of that is out of Durant's control, Right. Like when you talk about Kyrie and his role in that dysfunction. Phoenix starts out well. By the time that he leaves Phoenix, Phoenix, I think that you could say even the region wasn't really sad to see him go. There was bad juju there. He didn't, you know, like the construction of the roster, there was whispers of that. And then when you get to Houston, I mean, there were, I would say before his. The burner accounts said that there was trouble with the Houston Rockets and, you know, his role within the Houston Rockets, there were whispers of, you know, his dissatisfaction with the roster even before the. All this burner gate. Right. And you see a team that is already seems to be just, I. I don't know the word to put on it, but it seems to have bad juju again. Right. Like, and another thing that has been damning for the case against KD is like the talented roster around him. The young guys haven't necessarily gotten better. Right. Like, Amand Thompson hasn't necessarily made that jump that we were all expecting to make him to make. And you know, I was scared about that with the Durant trade because, you know, their games are a little bit, I wouldn't say redundant because they do different things on the floor. But Amin seems to be a guy that needs the ball in his hands and definitely is somebody, you know, when Durant comes, that takes the ball out of his hands. And I thought that was going to be a detriment to, you know, his overall growth. And then the other thing is like, look at Durant's peer group, like in this case, LeBron, because I think LeBron, I think Durant's talent suggests that he should be on that talent level. LeBron, you know, when he was in a similar situation, obviously he was a bit younger, but there were a lot of guys he had a talent to make the roster, work around him right at his time. Durant hasn't necessarily done that. And I thought this was a big opportunity for him to be able to be like, to, to kind of change that narrative about him. And he hasn't really done it in a perfect scenario, even with the injuries. And I, and I do give that the credence that it deserves. But in a perfect world, I want him to be the reason why Amin Thompson is just turning into a superstar, right. Or Easton has taken that next step or, you know, a lot I wanted that to happen because this was a big opportunity for him to show and push away all the doubt of his leadership. And I don't think he's done that. I think that he's been a great individual player, but I don't think that he has raised the. I don't think this team is better necessarily than last year's team and last year's team was a lot more healthier. But this, it's always been a. His role within an offense has always kind of been, you know, one against the other. And it's not just a one, one on five and it's not his fault but like it's the type of player that he is, right. Like he is a ball dominant post up can hit the three offensive player, one of the greatest that we've ever seen, but he needs the ball in his hands and you know, he didn't want to play the motion offense that the warriors wanted him to play, and when other teams have tried to implement that, he wants the ball in his hands and to be a playmaker, and that's well within his right. But as a consequence, a lot. There's going to be a lot of staring and watching, and that's what the Rockets have been doing. And that's, quite honestly, that's what the, the Suns were doing when he was on the team there. But I do think that, yeah, he does have the great stats, but I think that he holds responsibility in this as well.
- [52:13]
Logan Murdock
Yeah, I mean, we did this a lot during the LeBron peak years, where when we're comparing Carmelo or Whoever else like LeBron elevates his teammates. Why doesn't Player X fill in the blank? Carmelo or somebody else do the same? LeBron was always a point guard, essentially. Like, I don't care what he's been labeled at over the course of his career, that dude's been the point guard on pretty much every team he's ever been on in the NBA, aside from essentially this year's team with Luka, where Luca is clearly like the, the lead orchestrator. But Kevin Durant, as much as he's had the ball in his hands throughout his career, is not, he's not a point forward like, he can, he can play make and he's. His assist numbers are pretty robust for a, A, you know, a power forward slash, small forward scorer type who mostly, you know, scores in isolation and, and can drive the ball, does all these things with it. Like, he was as a very good playmaker for that. But he's not built, and I don't mean physically, I mean, like, you know, spiritually as a basketball player. He's not built like a point guard. He's not running the offense. He can, but not in that same way as LeBron. And so, like, that's why Fred Van Vliet was so important to have on this team. Right? And those two never even ended up playing together. Maybe they will next season. Maybe they'll find another point guard who can, you know, you know, be that, that organizer and, and take on that responsibility and also, you know, yeah, exploit the best of Kevin Durant when necessary, but also make sure other guys get involved and keep the offense moving. And that's the problem that the Rockets have had is just that, you know, they've just ended up becoming like a series of guys who, who will do something with the ball in their hands individually. There's not a lot of synergy happening there and you could say that that's partially Durant's responsibility, and I don't dismiss that. But I think a lot of this is just structural for the Rockets.
- [54:08]
Howard Beck
Yeah. I do think two things can be true here. Right. Like, it can be structural, but it can also be, you know. You know, I think it was just more so. Like, I. I think I wanted this to be an opportunity for him to kind of change a lot of things that we thought that he is right. Or at least that we bestowed onto, you know, what he is and what he was going to be. And, you know, it's funny, I want to. There's a quote in the Michael Lee story once again, you guys should check out. Um, he says people don't truly appreciate anything until it's not here anymore. Anybody wants to credit, but after a while, it really doesn't matter. It's not going to make or break my life. I'm going to expect love or praise or anything from the game or anybody. I just go out there, do what I do and love what I do without getting anything back from. It was an interesting quote because it was one of those things where the words don't necessarily match up with the actions over the last few years. Right. Because he said the similar thing to me and he said the similar thing to other people. But he's always a guy that is just kind of trying to real time manicure his image. And like, actually this isn't how it's supposed to be. This isn't how I was. This isn't how the narrative was when I was at team X or team Y. Why are you doing this? Why are you saying these things? For a guy that doesn't care, he tends to try to correct the record a lot. And I just don't know where he goes forward from this and where the Rockets go forward from this. Because he is one of the most talented players and one of the smartest individuals that I have ever seen play the game of basketball. And he deserves to be, you know, in title contention year in and year out. And I think it's just sad, right? Like next year he's going to be a year older. Is this team going to be viable? Right? Like, is this T is Amen finally going to take the step that he's supposed to be able to take that we all expect? And is there going to be, you know, shoulda, coulda, woulda. Should we have actually made this trade on the Houston side? Right. Cause it just hasn't been fruitful. Like there's a world they can go into the play in and be a lower seed. Right. They're good right now, but, you know, we'll see what happens. It just, it's just sad, Just sad how it's going, Howard.
- [56:24]
Logan Murdock
Yeah, but it's also like as I wrote back in, in January with the Steph piece, but you know, like these, these things never or very rarely end with glory, you know, for fading superstars. Right. Like, there's a lot of different ways this can go and almost none of them are. Are glorious. So that's what we're seeing into various degrees with Steph, LeBron and KD. But, you know, the, the good news is like, two of those three are still very relevant in this postseason. Katie and LeBron. And if not for injuries, I mean, who knows, maybe. Maybe the warriors still find their way out of the play in and, and we see them in the playoffs. Maybe we get a few stuff moments, but like, you know, the door, the doors are shutting quickly soon, but everybody should go. Check out Michael D's piece on the ringer with Kevin Durand. He got an exclusive sit down with him recently. It's Katie talking about pursuing mj, who he's going to pass on the all time scoring list soon and a lot of other stuff. So great stuff from our buddy Michael Lee on the ringer dot com.
- [57:24]
Howard Beck
Yes, sir. One of the greats, both of them, K and Michael Lee. Michael Lee's had a relationship with him going all the way back to D.C. so you should definitely check it out because he has a very, very unmatched insight into Kevin Durant for a long time now. Cliff, what's going on, buddy? Time for Mailbag. We're here with Cliff. Who was. Yo. So do you. Do you. Do you look like Howard does when you go to Brooklyn, like the day. The morning. Morning after a night in Brooklyn.
- [57:55]
Logan Murdock
What did you mean?
- [57:56]
Cliff
Yeah, what does that mean, man? I'll be chilling in Brooklyn, man. I love Brooklyn. That's what I got home.
- [58:00]
Howard Beck
You know, Howard, Howard tries to act like a professional, but, you know, he's an undercover rager on a night in Brooklyn, you know what I mean? It's like it's college all over again. Yeah, you already know.
- [58:10]
Cliff
It's a couple of spots you could probably catch Howard at in Brooklyn for sure.
- [58:13]
Howard Beck
Show it.
- [58:14]
Cliff
Definitely, definitely Park Slope, man. All day, baby. Yay. Let's get to this first question from Nathan Hill. This subject title is referees text and Luca. Hi, guys. Love your work. I'm listening to the pod here in Australia from last Saturday when You guys were talking about Jaylen Brown's ejection. How to mention that back in Raj's day, refs would toss players for what they get away with now? Specifically reference Luka. I am a huge Lakers fan and admire Luka's talent, but I can't stand watching this guy play basketball due to the constant whining to the refs. My question, why don't the refs toss him every game? I would have absolutely no problem with it, nor should any other Lakers fan or NBA or the NBA itself. It's a terrible look. Not to mention the missed defensive assignments because he is still barking at refs every single play. Mind you, that is in all caps with three exclamation points. The fact that Luka still gets away with it is mind numbing. He is brilliant. But at this rate, will he be remembered as a petulant and flawed star as well as the subject of the trade, rather than a nightly triple double machine that brought his team to title contention every season? Perhaps Nico is right after all. Nate Ocean Grove, Australia boys, have at it.
- [59:26]
Howard Beck
Shout out to Australia and New Zealand because they'd be holding us down. I would, I would love to go
- [59:30]
Logan Murdock
one day, but phenomenal NBA fans out there.
- [59:33]
Howard Beck
Yeah, yeah.
- [59:34]
Logan Murdock
I see some of them every year at summer league. And yet I've still never gotten to New Orleans or to a New Zealand or Australia. Somehow.
- [59:43]
Howard Beck
You know what I realized before we get to the question? I just found out that it's not Melbourne, it's Melbourne. Anyway, yes, they have.
- [59:50]
Logan Murdock
They have a different accent and pronunciations in a different part of the world. Go figure. So listen, I mean, we covered this. Yes, Luca complains too much. Yes, Luca probably does enough to get tossed from every single game. No, I don't think that that's a reasonable solution to the problem of Luca or anybody else in the modern NBA complaining too much. Although I love the idea. Hell, that would. That would. That would get the complaining out really quick if guys were just getting tossed left and right. I don't know if the NBA's staff of lawyers would be able to keep up with all the grievances filed by the players association, but, you know, give it a shot.
- [60:27]
Howard Beck
Or the fan base, just like I just paid for to go see Luca. And he was out in the first quarter. Yeah, with three minutes left in the first quarter.
- [60:34]
Logan Murdock
Yeah, not. Not a great look for the league. I mean, that's the thing. Like the league just had to make its piece at some point with this. And the. And the referees did too. The Bar is, is much higher now, I would say to get ejected, essentially, the players have a lot more latitude than they did 20 years ago in terms of how much shit they can talk to the refs. It's just, it's just true. The league adjusted because it didn't. You know, a different generation of players came along that were pretty aggressive with the refs and, you know, they've tried being. Doing the hardliner thing over, you know, various stretches of the last 15 or 20 years. And I don't know if you remember this, Logan, like, there was an All Star weekend, I think it was in la where we're like, there's going to be a player ref summit to talk about their issues because things had gotten really.
- [61:16]
Howard Beck
Was that 18, was that 2018, something like that?
- [61:18]
Logan Murdock
I can't remember. But just, you know, just, just dramatic silliness. Summit. We need a summit with the players in the referee. Yeah. The league just basically just, I think, you know, let go of the rope on this one. You know, the players get away with a lot more and unfortunately, that means that, you know, the fans are going to have to see them yapping a lot more. And in some cases, as in the Luca case that our listener flagged. Yeah. Maybe he's not getting back on defense while he's doing that too. I don't know, man. It's.
- [61:47]
Howard Beck
I think one thing, though. The question, though. The question, though, the last part of the question, though. He is brilliant, but at this rate will be remembered as a petulant and flawed star rather than a nightly triple double machine if he doesn't win. Yeah, that's what he's gonna be. That's what he's gonna be looked at. There is a danger, especially if he continues to do this. Like, it's all good. As long as you're great. As long as you're making those, like, brilliant shots against Denver the other night, like, yeah, but this is gonna catch up to him if he doesn't win. And by the way, like, one of the things, like, I am completely out on the Lakers in the postseason. I don't think that they're gonna do it, but there is like a. Because Luke is so good and he had. There is that fear, like, oh, shit, could Luca go on a playoff heater? But to the point of the question, I, I do think that if he doesn't start winning and start actually, you know, raising the Florida Lakers, especially in a market like la, he'll be remembered as somebody that got a lot of points and got a lot of Assists and a lot of rebounds, but ultimately like undermined all of that success with his, of his antics. So we'll see. Thanks, Nate.
- [62:55]
Logan Murdock
It's on the table.
- [62:56]
Cliff
Let's. Let's get to the second question here. This is from Pete Zabata. Hello, Real ones. Huge fan. I see the show as follows. Logan is pg, kind of a Kate Howard as a traditional power forward. Aging Kevin McHale with Gale and rickety knees. Raja as defensive small forward. Buck Williams with a jump shot. Cliff is sort of like Doc Rivers. Oh, man. Wishing he was coaching the Pistons Detroit basketball but stuck with the real Ones. That is indeed false. My question is as follows. I like seeing NBA players who do more with less stars that lack in the athletic department, but make up for it with skill, finesse, and pure craftsmanship. Some examples include Jalen Brunson, Nikola Jokic, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Tim Duncan. Who else fits in the category of great but not gifted? Maybe Luka Harden, Draymond. Thanks, Pete. That is from Pete Zabata.
- [63:49]
Howard Beck
Let's just, let's just get this out of the way. All these players are gifted. Okay, maybe not like physically gifted and athletically gifted, but they are gifted. Like I, I can't a good conscience say that Luca Harden and Draymond aren't gifted players. Like I, I, I. But I get what he's saying. I, I, I, I get what he's saying. There's.
- [64:11]
Logan Murdock
We think of like this athletic prototype, right? Where they're the guys who come in who can jump out of the gym or they're super quick. And though like, we think of the physical tools and the guys who are physically, athletically super gifted and then guys who have become stars based on some combination of their basketball intellect and their craftsmanship and technique, right? Where it's, you know what I mean? Like, so I have a, I have
- [64:37]
Howard Beck
a, I have a hot take on
- [64:38]
Logan Murdock
this one and I'm curious your opinion.
- [64:40]
Howard Beck
I've gotten flame for this a lot of, like last time I brought this up a few years ago, but. And maybe because I didn't explain it as much as I should have, but I'm thinking about Kobe Bryant. And the reason why I'm thinking about Kobe Bryant is he didn't jump out of the gym like Nick, right? Like, he didn't, he didn't shoot the ball necessarily. Like Steph, who, who has. Right? But he made the most out of the body that he had as a six six guy, right? Like, and, and definitely did that with developing his skill, particularly his post game, particularly his, his Smarts of the game overall and finding his, his, his spots on the wing and developing that mid range jump shot and just practicing all those trick shots and things like that. He definitely had the skill, the finesse and per craftsmanship when he didn't necessarily have the athleticism of the peers that he was compared to.
- [65:38]
Logan Murdock
It's funny you mentioned Kobe because I thought about him too. Like certainly by normal human standards, Kobe was incredibly athletically gifted. But I've said this and written it and you know, he just think about him compared to his peers. He couldn't jump as high as Vince Carter.
- [65:58]
Howard Beck
He did 38 inch. 38 inch vertical leap for him.
- [66:01]
Logan Murdock
Yeah.
- [66:02]
Howard Beck
Which is good. Like I would love to have it but you know, not peak at NBA athleticism.
- [66:07]
Logan Murdock
Yeah. He was not more athletic than Vince Carter. He was not more athletic or as, as long and tall as Tracy McGrady. Right. Like Kobe did not have the most physical tools, but he made the most of what he had. And I think that is the story of his career to a large extent. The our. Our listener was. Was mostly focused on stars who fit this. But I, I keep thinking of like guys who are like a, like a tier below that who made the most of what they had without being like having classic NBA athleticism that jumped off the page or you know, where they could jump out of the gym kind of stuff. Like Shane Battier, right. Was the no stats all star. That was the headline on him from the New York Times magazine piece for many, many years ago. Kyle Lowry, Fred Van Vliet, who we were talking about earlier, Norm Powell, like guys who are like, they're not that classic NBA leaping athleticism, quickness, whatever else, but they just get the most. You don't want to add for that matter.
- [67:07]
Howard Beck
You know what I add today? Andre Miller.
- [67:10]
Logan Murdock
Andre Miller, one of the.
- [67:13]
Howard Beck
What would just like just piss me off when he was playing against my team because I'd be like, how is he doing this? Every time I watch Andre Miller, like, how is he doing this? Right. Not couldn't jump over a, couldn't jump over a cricket, but could, you know, he was all about spacing and was like it. Typically when you think about those guys, you think about the smarts like Draymond. His whole career is based on mastering angles and getting to a spot no matter what before another guy does. Right? So Andre Miller would answer that.
- [67:43]
Logan Murdock
Yeah, I remember a game I camera was it an all star game? Andre Miller like had a breakaway to the basket and just like laid it up and everybody like booed because they wanted him to dunk it. But under Miller doesn't dunk. Like, I think he could dunk, but just chose not to. I think I'm remembering that correctly. I can't remember what the context was.
- [68:00]
Howard Beck
How about Chris Paul? I think Chris Paul is. Is definitely one of those types of guys who has done it with all smarts. He's not the most athletic guy. Isn't the tall sky dude.
- [68:10]
Logan Murdock
Early in his career, his. His, like, lateral quickness was fucking off the charts. Like he. The later parts of his career. You're right. Early in his career, though, that dude was super quick.
- [68:19]
Howard Beck
What's the next question?
- [68:20]
Cliff
All right, this final question here is from Kohn. Amadou Daw Duadu.
- [68:26]
Howard Beck
There you go.
- [68:28]
Cliff
I think I'm trying. Hopefully I ain't messed that up, man. My fault. Amadou. Good morning to you all. It's Amadou from Montreal, which is still in Canada, not in USA for some people's education. Initially, I wanted to send you guys a message two weeks ago, but it was my birthday. Just like my guy, Jason Tatum. March 3rd. Last week I forgot, so I thought I'd change. I had a question about Westbrook, what his future is in the league. He's averaging still 15 points and six assists. However, he was not far to be out of the league earlier this season. I still think he could play a good role in a championship team if he accepts coming from the bench. But will teams of that level try to get him next summer? Amadou. Thank you. Amadou.
- [69:05]
Howard Beck
Right now, can I start this one?
- [69:08]
Logan Murdock
Go for it. And we're, by the way, we're happy that Montreal is still in Canada. We're very happy about. Let Canada still be Canada. We support that.
- [69:18]
Howard Beck
Love talking about Canadians, man. I got a lot of love for my Canadian. I think he'll be back with the Kings next year. I think that all you need is one team. And I think the Kings have loved what they have seen from him. I think they can talk themselves into him being a veteran presence in the locker room as they try to build it, build from the ground up. I don't know how successful that is going to be, but I think that. I think that he'll be back. I think that's the one team that he'll be back with. I think that's the future of his league. You only need one team. I don't know if he's going to be a contender, but he's getting everything he wants here, man. You know, he's getting all the shots down the Stretch, they're not winning, but, like, Russ is, You know, he's being able to defend his team, defend his, himself and the team against the media. You get to be full Russ. He gets to be himself. And Zach seemed Sack has nothing to lose. Why not bring him back? Pun intended.
- [70:12]
Logan Murdock
Yeah, I mean, he was pretty close to not having a roster spot. And we, like, the Kings are one of the most confounding franchises in the league, generally speaking, but it does seem like under Scott Perry, they're trying to, like, clear things out. Right? They, they've made some moves and, and there's more to come, and we'll. We'll see. Like, you know, are, are DeMar DeRozan, Zach Levine still on this roster come the fall, or they get the number
- [70:40]
Howard Beck
one pick in a few months?
- [70:42]
Logan Murdock
Yeah, there's demonic Sabona still on the roster. Like, I, it's still early for this administration, and, and so I, I, I don't want to be too critical, but I don't have a clear sense of what they're trying to do and where Russ might fit into that. And it may depend on how the lottery balls fall and who they end up getting in the June draft. And what role do you see Russ playing around that guy or if he makes sense there at all. But, like, if it's not the Kings, and I'm, I'm with you, Logan. I think, like, if, like, that seems like the most logical thing is this just, like, maybe one more season there as a supporting player on a, on a rebuilding team built around a new young stud that they hope to get in the draft. But if not there, man, like, I'm looking around, I'm like, are the Rockets desperate enough to, to bring him back like, you know, behind a rehab? Fred Van Vliet, the Suns, you never know what Matt Ishbia might do. But the Mavericks is a backup to Kyrie. I think I'm looking around. I can't, I cannot find. I cannot find a team that makes sense for him, to be honest.
- [71:46]
Howard Beck
I think that you're great, right, to reference Scott Perry and his team because on paper, they are in charge. But I think you're missing the plot here. I don't think that it's their decision whether Russ goes back. I think it's Vivek, who is, who loves aging stars and more than anything, just loves to be in front of a camera and loves the idea and he loves big names. I think he would love to have Russ back just for a lot of different, but more of the notoriety of having a Russell Westbrook in Sacramento. I think that, I think it's I think it's above Scott Perry, Perry's pay grade.
- [72:27]
Logan Murdock
You may be right. That's a fair point.
- [72:30]
Howard Beck
God, why does it get so depressing when we talk about the Kings? Like, it just gets. It just brings the energy of the podcast down, man.
- [72:39]
Logan Murdock
God, twice. Twice in this show. My, my fault the first time for referencing them, but yeah, yeah.
- [72:47]
Howard Beck
Anyways, that has been another edition of Real Ones. This has been really, really fun. Real ones mailbag gmail.com real1mailbag gmail.com real1 mailbag gmail.com keep putting in your questions, man, because we are going to keep answering them, especially as the postseason comes into focus. We got March Madness next week or this week, so that'll be fun. All right, Friday, we will see you guys then. I think Roger is going to be back by then. Till then, enjoy. Real ones back@gmail.com real.com talk to you soon. Ah, ah. All the shits. Bye. Must be 21 years and older and present in select states. For Kansas, an affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and older and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.orgbackslash chat in Connecticut or visit mdg.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit ma.org or call 1-800-327-5050. For 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-Hopeny or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-78672.
- [73:56]
Logan Murdock
Teams 1 Cup. The primetime stage is set for the TGL presented by SoFi. Finals Los Angeles Golf Club vs Tigers Jupiter Links. Keep up it's playoffs. Tune in. Monday, March 23, 9pm Eastern on ESPN2 and Tuesday, March 24, 7pm Eastern on
- [74:12]
Howard Beck
ESPN and on the ESPN applied.