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Is Giannis Better Off in Boston or Miami? Plus, Dusty Does Dallas and Draft Cause and Effect. | Group Chat
01:30:57
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- [00:00]
Rob Mahoney
Foreign.
- [00:17]
Justin Barrier
Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me as always, J. Kyle Mann and the new head coach of the Dallas Mavericks, it's Rob Mahoney. What's up?
- [00:28]
Rob Mahoney
I got the job.
- [00:29]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. Didn't you know?
- [00:31]
Rob Mahoney
What are my qualifications? Because I. I wouldn't know.
- [00:34]
Justin Barrier
Good guy.
- [00:35]
Rob Mahoney
Okay.
- [00:36]
Justin Barrier
Likes basketball, sure knows how to speak to the fans. A good representative of what the franchise is all about, baby.
- [00:44]
Rob Mahoney
You know what I would say those things alone pretty dramatic upgrade over past iteration. So congratulations to me and the Dallas Mavericks, I guess.
- [00:52]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah. Efficient, speaker, homegrown guy, you know, I think has the right temperament for it. I don't know that I've ever seen Rob get too riled. Anything other than, you know, some, you know, open denim shirts or anything like that. I mean he typically keeps it pretty, pretty cool.
- [01:07]
Rob Mahoney
Don't, don't get me flustered on air, Kyle, please.
- [01:10]
Justin Barrier
Well, Rob had a couple days off from us. Like how you feeling? Like do you feel regenerated? Do you feel like what did you even. Moving through you to talk about some trade fodder from maybe trades.
- [01:21]
Rob Mahoney
I mean I missed you both, I have to say. Did I miss the NBA draft? Eh? I mean I'm getting caught up, you
- [01:26]
J. Kyle Mann
know, I'm still getting continued condescension. At least, at least it's shitty when it goes into the bottle because we have to uncork it. Come in the fall with all his takes. Who's Tyler K? NBA champion Tyler K. Rob, stick that one squarely up your arse.
- [01:41]
Rob Mahoney
Look, genuinely, it is not condescension, just me acknowledging my personal limits. Do I know all of these prospects? I'm still getting up to speed. I'm still reading J. Kyle Man's draft guide. I'm still reading the mocks. I'm still crunching tape though. If I'm being totally honest, I'm crunching more Lawrence of Arabia 70 millimeter tape. this given point in time, I'm trying to take a step back from the NBA lifestyle to just like, I don't know, live. Live a well rounded existence. Is that allowed on this pod?
- [02:08]
Justin Barrier
You got three hours for Lawrence of Arabia, but you don't have three hours for Braden Burry's tape. Come on, man.
- [02:14]
Rob Mahoney
I got bad news. It's more than three hours. That's really crazy. Unbelievable. But it was like.
- [02:20]
Justin Barrier
I think it was.
- [02:20]
Rob Mahoney
It's almost four hours plus intermission.
- [02:22]
Justin Barrier
That's crazy.
- [02:23]
J. Kyle Mann
Holy moly.
- [02:24]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, well that's a great sell for this podcast though because we're going to be talking some draft stuff later on, but we're also going to be mirroring it with, like, teams that might be doing things outside of that. Teams kind of stuck in this middle ground where they have high draft picks, but they also have some business to attend to into the off season. A little draft cause and effect is what we're going to call it. Check that out. But first we got to talk about Giannis, but we'll do that after the break.
- [02:49]
Rob Mahoney
This episode of the Ringer NBA show is presented by Ferrero. The world is watching. Go all in for your team this summer with Ferrero. Enter for the chance to win a range of prizes just by purchasing your favorite treats, like Kinder Bueno with an irresistible chocolate wafer and creamy hazelnut filling, or Keebler Chips Deluxe cookies with indulgent and rich chocolatey chunks. Or Ferrero Rocher squares with crunchy hazelnuts and milk chocolate wrapped in iconic gold. Go all in. Buy any two Ferrero brands and you could win $1 million. Official rules apply. Learn more at Go all in and
- [03:22]
Justin Barrier
win.com all right, it is currently 9:15am Pacific Time on Monday, so if you are listening to this, that means that Giannis has not been traded. But we are going to talk about this and what could happen because it seems like something is at the very least on the goal line. We have reports as of this morning, seems like it's Miami or Boston, and it seems pretty certain that he's going to get moved before the deadline. Rob, I don't know about you, but, like, I'll say this, I was pretty much done with alliance talk until about, like, two days ago or so. Just really fatigued. And so if the audience is out there being like, oh, my God, what, what's going on here? We're gonna do this again. At the very least, like, this feels more realistic than ever before. Like, it feels like we're about to get something finally.
- [04:07]
Rob Mahoney
We'll take it.
- [04:08]
J. Kyle Mann
We.
- [04:08]
Rob Mahoney
We will take the finish line. I think all I was really hoping for, though, was if this process was going to drag on, and it certainly has, that we would get some twists and turns that would get some new suitors entering the fray, that, you know, teams like Portland would be considered in a totally different light. The fact that we're here and it's still just kind of like the heat. And I, I guess the change is that the Celtics are materially involved in these conversations and that Jaylen Brown in particular is so heavily rumored in them. That's the new development. Maybe that's enough. Maybe that's enough to kind of get the juices flowing again and make this feel exciting after. I mean, we just gone round and around with the Yana stuff for so long. It feels like every other possible consideration and option we've already kicked around.
- [04:50]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, I think the combination of Jalen's the thing that has kind of made this cross the go over the mountain into, you know, more of a real like it's a realistic possibility. And a more interesting possibility in my opinion, is the combination of this track that Jalen Brown set on with Tatum being out this past season, where he went on this journey of having all this new responsibility that he clearly enjoyed and relished and maybe, you know, like Caesar, once he got control of the army, didn't or he became. Isn't that the way this. He didn't want to. Didn't want to give his power back after he had taken it. So I think. And so the, I think the juxtaposition of, you know, Jalen maybe wanting to segue at this point into his career to his own team, the Bucks needing a new kind of central piece for their team, getting rid of Giannis, I mean, that's one of the possibilities. This has yet to, as we said, actually formally happen. But it's a very, very interesting storyline, I think. And watching Jalen, if this does go down, I think will become a very fascinating thing in the east for this
- [05:50]
Rob Mahoney
episode is brought to you by Ferrero. Soccer's international tournament is here and Ferrero is going all in. Enter for your shot at a range of prizes just by buying your favorites like Tic Tac Fresh Mints, Cool Minty and Simple or Halo Top ice cream loaded with crave worthy mix ins in every bite and half the calories of leading competitors. Go all in. Buy any two Ferrero brands and you could win $1,000,000. Official rules apply. Learn more at goallinandwin.com Milwaukee next year so is the, is the the die is cast moment to. To just like really torture the Caesar thing further? Is it Jaylen Brown becoming a superstar or is it him becoming publicly kind of involved in these conversations to a point where maybe there's no going back from something like this?
- [06:37]
Justin Barrier
You're saying like saying on a Twitch stream that you would prefer to have your own team might have like pushed them in the direction of giving him his own team?
- [06:45]
Rob Mahoney
It's. He said a lot of thing on Twitch streams, you know, like I think it can all be chopped and ellipsed into being whatever you want it to be. But look, he's. He's been, I think, as forthright as you're going to get an NBA player to be on record about the fact that he enjoyed having this opportunity. And I really don't begrudge him that. Like, I know it's a little weird coming off of a season like this to say things in that particular fashion, but a lot of these guys want the chance, want the control, want to lead a team of their own, want to see what they can do. It just may take moving away from Boston in a deal like this to kind of really make that happen for Jaylen Brown in a sustaining sort of way.
- [07:22]
Justin Barrier
You're welcome to lead your life any way you want. If you would prefer to be playing off of Ryan Rollins and whatever like second round picks the Bucks can cobble together over the next, like five drafts or however it is long it is until they get their own picks back. Like, have at it. I think the thing, Kyle, that really like, jumps out to me throughout this entire process and is still going to be the case once we finally get a Giannis deal is just that the Bucks really screwed this up by waiting this long. Like, as we're going through the draft, I'm like, why didn't you, like, just settle this last offseason tank so that you could be a part of this great draft that we're about to get and also avoid the forthcoming penalties or the new lottery restrictions that are going to make it tougher to be in your exact position going forward from this point. And it also feels like they're in the situation where they have to choose between two, like, fine returns. It's either Jaylen Brown plus whatever else is cobbled together or like the poo poo platter in Miami where it's like Hawkes Hero, where you might spin hero off some like, late round picks. And so I'm like, can I have neither? Like, neither is neither an option anymore.
- [08:27]
J. Kyle Mann
Well, I think parsing which one is the poo poo is. Is a big question here because I keep hearing it's all a matter of perspective. Obviously we're evaluating guys in. In when we go into these deals. Evaluating doesn't just happen when guys come into the league. I talk to people around the league who work for teams who are like, we're always evaluating. We're always evaluating guys that have been in the league for a while. And I think when you look at The Miami Heat 1 I keep hearing repeatedly people like saying that that's or it was reported this morning that it was believed to kind of be the better asset play. But I'm like, Khale Ware was sort of a risky pick for Miami. Took him knowing that that was sort of a like, we. This might turn into something. I don't know that we've moved out of this might turn into something phase with Khalil, where as much as he's shown off and on, we're like, Tyler Herro is he. We know he can. We know he's clutch. We know he's been in big games. We know he'd be hypothetically going home. People keep talking like that. That's more of a just connection that I think we all keep drawing and assuming that it's like, some kind of positive thing for the Bucks. It's like, I don't know that it necessarily is. I think repeatedly we've heard these. These NBA players, like, I wouldn't want to move to my fucking hometown. I don't know if you guys are like this. Granted, I'm from a very tiny town, but I. Nothing against Taylorsville, but granted, I just. I can't.
- [09:40]
Rob Mahoney
I think there was a lot there.
- [09:41]
J. Kyle Mann
I just dis. Taylorsville. Sorry. It's just small. I didn't want to live there anymore.
- [09:44]
Justin Barrier
Bullets and board material for Taylor, man, I can't go.
- [09:48]
J. Kyle Mann
I'm not getting a banner, that's for sure. No, just talking about which one makes the most sense. I mean, we went through this cycle of the Bull or the, you know, the warriors with their. Their offering that, and I thought that that was kind of an attractive offering. But I also think we've gone on an interesting ride with Giannis in terms of his. The three of us charted this throughout the year, where it's almost like the Bucks sort of in there, in there, like, accepting the possibility that they might be breaking up with Giannis and, like, in moving on and sort of trading that off. I feel like we've gone on an interesting ride with him where I don't feel like we feel the same way about him that we did six months ago. I mean, even how recently, it's. It's just been a. It's been an odd sort of sea change for how he's viewed within the league.
- [10:35]
Justin Barrier
I feel like, yeah, he's going to be, what, 32 next season? Obviously, the injuries have been mounting even before this, this season. And the weird thing is, it feels like no matter where he goes, let's say it is Boston or Miami, at this point, they're going to need a lot of him because you're Gutting probably a lot of the depth or your rotation pieces in order to do it, especially in Miami. And so it's just like you're going to need a lot from him. And that led to some of the soft tissue injuries with the Bucks in the first place. And so I get all that. It's just. I just don't know at this point. If you're the Heat, for instance, if you want to take this team by team, like, what else are the Heat going to do? That's kind of where I've ultimately netted out here. At first, I was a skeptic of, like, Miami trying to pull the trigger on something like this, Rob. But, like, you go through it, it's just like, is Bam. Giannis, Wiggins, if they bring back Norm Powell, like, that's way better, I would assume, than just going with the poo poo platter and figuring out later.
- [11:32]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I think it's better in terms of the basketball. I also think it's better just in terms of sort of the spirit and energy around the team. Miami likes to kind of linger in these spaces and see what developmental projects are going to pop, what's the piece that might elevate them to a surprising tier. And frankly, we've seen them do that enough and Eric Spoelstra do that enough to ever kind of turn our noses up at it. Like, they are very good at finding ways from the middle of the Eastern Conference pack up into competitive echelons. That said, like this particular group, it's harder and harder to see those inroads like, this is a perfectly competent team. I suspect if they rolled it out as is, they would be perfectly competent again in many ways. But. But why? Like, to what end? Other than that continued sort of treadmill existence, hoping that you get the jump, hoping that you get the pop. Why not see what you can do with Giannis, a player who I think temperamentally, in terms of his habits, aligns with a lot of what the Heat are about, could fit what they do in a lot of ways, could fit the development of someone like Bam, who is trying to stretch out his game more and more every season. And thus those two guys might be able to play together if you can keep Bam in a trade like this. I. I really just don't see the downside for Miami, given everything that they're playing for right now, which is mostly just where are you going to fall in the play in mix, if that.
- [12:48]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, no, I mean, I know Miami wants to do it. I'm just kind of do we. If we're weighing the potential offerings between Boston and Miami, though, are you taking Miami's like, just. No, for sure, because I. I'm not. I don't. I don't see it as much.
- [13:01]
Justin Barrier
My thing with every one player centric offer for Giannis, dating back to when ev Evan Mobley was like a hot, like, sort of speculation, is that why would you just basically trade Giannis for another player in a similar situation where you had so much difficulty building the right contender immediately around Giannis? Jaylen Brown is just like a younger, different ver version of that. And I get. If you're an owner and you just want to sell a certain product and the offers are already so middling to begin with, maybe there's enough there. But I like Jalen. If they're then going to spin Jalen off into other assets. Because my whole thing for this entire, like, what, two years at this point is you just need stuff because you traded all your stuff, all your raw resources, your draft picks, everything else in order to build the teams you had in the past. Like, like, where is the other stuff coming from? Like, there are no means to get there other than just like, mining guys from the G League and like, on the fringes.
- [13:57]
J. Kyle Mann
So we're just in stuff acquisition mode. If we're the Bucks now, we're not thinking like, we reset now we have Jalen, we're moving forward. I mean, is that. I feel like that's probably the smart way to go.
- [14:06]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, that would be my approach. Yes. Because what's left with Jalen, It's Ryan Rollins, you presume Kuzma might get traded in. This, like, Turner, you would assume, want to, like, spin off again. Like, it would just be a, like, six seed. Like what we're saying about the Heat right now.
- [14:23]
Rob Mahoney
Sure.
- [14:23]
Justin Barrier
It would be that sort of team where it's like, playing maybe in the right year, it gets a little bit better.
- [14:27]
Rob Mahoney
Well, to me, all this is kind of order of operations talk. Like, do you want the supporting picks and role players and infrastructure necessary before you try to bring in a star, or do you want the star to be a kind of foundation that then frees you up to trade and try to acquire the other things through other means? I. I think the Miami offer as it's been reported so far, we'll see if that ends up happening, what the. What the finals on it turn out to be. But there's nothing in it that's so definitive that it gives you hope. There's a lot of, like, ifs decent Enough players, interesting, enough players, potential picks. And the picks are useful for exactly the reason you laid out jv. But at least with Jaylen Brown, yes, he's a lesser version of Giannis, but he buys you time. Like, that's. That to me is the huge variable in what you're talking about. It's like, why do you trade Giannis for a worse player who's maybe a little bit younger? The answer is Giannis doesn't really want to be here anymore. And time will tell if someone like Jaylen Brown wants to be the leader of the next version of the Bucks or not. But at least you have time under contract to make some decisions, to make some further moves, to like, figure out what the next stage of this is really going to look like without the sentimentality that I think clouded a lot of the Giannis trade like Odyssey to begin with.
- [15:37]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, it helps that Jaylen Brown is trapped, basically, which is always the funny thing about this. It's like, we need to get rid of this disgruntled God who wants out for a guy who has no options and has to be here. But could we talk about the Celtics in all of this as well? Because I guess I get it from a pure talent grab standpoint, like marrying Jason Tatum with Giannis, two top 10 players in the league, like, it's a pretty attractive option. I just don't know how we got here so quickly. I guess like I kind of do because we just laid out like with Jaylen Brown all the difficulties he is as just like a personality type. But I left the season and even the playoffs being like, you know, injuries. But this team still has a lot of what made it good. The, the fact that they found so many interesting guys on the fringes. I know Brad Stevens came out pretty like, strongly basically being like we're not good enough. In his post game or his postseason press conference, he had that sad about like being 3 and 11 against the top three seeds in each conference. I get all that, but I didn't think that they were like light years away from leveling up and being on the same level of like Knicks, Cavs in the east, where they had a chance at it. And if anything, they basically did such a good job resetting to the point where they could add something else. But I know they were in the mix for Visa, Zubot, for instance, at the trade deadline, something like that, to just add to what they have. I have to imagine that, like, they're just so sick of dealing with not only Brown as a personality, but perhaps Just like dealing with all the struggles that comes with trying to bring out the best of these two guys as our pillars. Yeah, it took Drew Holiday and Chris Dobson this, like, awesome, rock solid core that, like, played the exact right style in order to hit the ground in 24 and win the title. But maybe it's just like, it was just so, like, exhausting trying to make this all work from both the personality and the fit side that they're just like, let's just do something different.
- [17:22]
Rob Mahoney
I think that's the way to think about it. And I, I want to soften the, like, Jaylen Brown as difficult personality stuff a little bit because to me it's less that he is uniquely challenging to work with or uniquely difficult. Most NBA stars are challenging in their ways. They have certain demands. They have things that they want. I think the way you laid it out though, Justin, as far as, like, how much, how much work does it take to make this function at a potential championship level? And clearly it takes some work. Like, it takes some work in terms of the personalities involved. It takes some work in terms of the basketball side and building around Tatum and Brown in the best and optimal way and figuring out how to reload and do that yet again. All of that stuff takes a lot of effort and a lot of consideration and a lot of resources. And maybe at a certain point it is worth it for everybody just to move on a little bit and turn the page and try something new. I think that's a normal, healthy part of the team building cycle. And to me, it has less to do with, like, oh, Jaylen Brown is such a challenging part of this and more just these things run their course and this team has been good and they've been together and maybe they can be good and be apart and that's going to be fine too.
- [18:26]
Justin Barrier
Do you guys like either option more than the other? From his perspective, I guess from the team that is trading for Giannis. Do you like Giannis on the Heat more than Giannis on the Celtics?
- [18:38]
Rob Mahoney
I like him as a Celtic a little more. Kyle, I mean, how are you feeling about it?
- [18:44]
J. Kyle Mann
I'm in the same camp. I mean, it kind of depends on how big a bite out of the Celtics roster they would have that, you know, the Bucks would take based on what's there. I mean, I would like for, like, Derrick White to be there, although the
- [18:58]
Rob Mahoney
Derek White part of this, I think when you're, when you're comparing, why couldn't the Celtics have just kind of gone forward with the version of the roster that existed. The fact that Derrick White kind of turned into a non entity on offense, at least as a scorer, I think is a huge part of why you can't just go business as usual for them.
- [19:15]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah. Is that a blip or is that a, a trend that we think is like going to continue? I kind of feel like he'll, I feel like he'll come back the other way. I don't know. I've seen it. So. The sample size is so good.
- [19:26]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [19:26]
J. Kyle Mann
At this point, do you. Were you gonna say something?
- [19:28]
Rob Mahoney
I think he's going to be better. Like he's going to shoot better almost because he can't shoot worse. But I wouldn't expect him necessarily to reach the kind of scoring and playmaking highs that he has earlier in his Celtics career already like that. That might have been kind of the high watermark for the version of the player he's going to be for this team. And he's still going to be useful and he's still going to be an incredible defender, especially in help and off the ball. But expecting him to be a real deal consistent scorer just might not be what his role is for Boston going forward.
- [19:59]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, I, I think the playoffs are really where it becomes a concern there. All of like the connective plus minus gody traits that he has that like kind of support him when he isn't shooting well, I think stand out just a little bit more when you're counting on him to provide offense. And like he shot 33%, I believe in the regular season. Yeah. Excuse me. Yeah, 33% from three in the regular season. He was worse in the playoffs. It was like dreadful at times where you just couldn't count on him to hit shots. And that's just critical component to like what they're doing. I agree with what Rob is saying. Like I think he's Giannis with the Celtics, obviously there's just way more talent there. I just find the fit a little bit less seamless, if only because like one, like are we sure that Giannis can play with another big. I think it's a little bit easier now that we're not in like the, the thick of the three point boom. Like teams are doing things a little bit differently and you have so much support outside and on the rest of the team with that. But there's still like some stuff to figure out there where it's just like, is he going to play center? Is he going to play next to Keita? Will you then have to trade for a shooting center? Is that going to like, be Nicholas Vic. Like, is that someone you want next to Giannis? Because the whole thing with Brooke Lopez is he could protect the rim on top of being able to shoot. And so, like, I don't think it's as plug and play as you think. Whereas, like, Jaylen Brown is like, that's the exact type of player you want in order to solve some of these issues you're talking about. And so, yeah, if you're not, if you're not taking advantage of the next year with Giannis, you say we're hitting the ground running and we can win a title tomorrow, then I'm less prone to, like, be willing to rip things up in the same way that it seems that they're willing to with Jalen.
- [21:35]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, I, I mean, you'd have some questions to answer for sure. You'd have to go find something. I mean, you know, Brook Lopez is, as much as people might not think that he. You might not think he's a super unique, special player, but finding a guy that could shoot, pushing 40% from three and protect the rim and above, you know, it's just those guys aren't. They're just not really out there. But I think if you look at Giannis on the Celtics, I brought this up to you all over group text. There are some interesting parallels that he is the same. I don't know if you want me to bring this one up now, jv or not, but he's the same age and about the same mileage as Kevin Garnett was when he came to the Celtics in 2008, which I find interesting. So you could. I know people kind of worry about his health, style of play, but I think his style of play does feed into a lot of the guys that they naturally already have on this team. You're talking about just like the lesser, you know, role players that they've gotten a lot out of and elevated, like the Baylor Shiremans or, you know, talking about the. The Sam Housers, Peyton Pritchards, guys who can just catch and shoot. And we know that Giannis just makes those players look good, like, you know, Pat Connaughton back in the day. It's just he has a way of getting a lot out of those guys. So I feel like it would work. He and Tatum. There is the Tatum's on ball style. You kind of wonder if there might be some parallels between the way that the, the Dame Lillard fit was a little sticky. Do you need a guy who, like, really readily gets off the ball quickly? If you're Playing with Giannis, they probably have to figure that out, but I don't know. I don't know that it would even be all that much different than the, like, Tatum Brown kind of thing. It's like, Tatum. Tatum needs to play with somebody that is more deferential. How do. What do you all think is the optimal state there, and how much of a problem will that cause?
- [23:12]
Rob Mahoney
Well, especially as far as the Dame contrast goes, I think there's a different kind of pressure. When it's like point guard and big, it's like, okay, they have to work together, throw them in the pick and roll. Like, what is their immediate chemistry? And when it's more wing and big, like, I don't know. There wasn't the same conversation about, like, how are Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett going to amplify each other? It's like, more, how did they function within an offense? How does it find balance? And less how are they interacting in, like, a really direct way all the time? In part because, like, if Jason Tatum and Giannis run a pick and roll, most defenses are just going to switch that and kind of try to batten down the hatches and hold on for dear life. And maybe that'll work and maybe it won't. But ultimately, I think the reason I'm a little more bullish on Boston finding a flow within their offense that works is that they're really good at one just ball movement, period. Like, one of the best ball movement teams in the league last season. They're really good at face fainting, spacing, even when it's not really out there. Like, they create the illusion of spacing through their movement in a way that I think is going to be really challenging for teams to team up with if Giannis is also a part of that. And then I think Giannis is just going to have to play more five as his career advances. That's going to be something that he's going to have to accept as much as anything. I don't know that he was ever going to get to that point with the Bucks. There is that, like, mental hurdle when it's, this is the team that I've been on, this is my team, my city, my franchise. I'm going to do everything on my terms. Sometimes when these guys go to a new organization, they're a little more accommodating. They want to fit in. They want to, you know, endear themselves to the Celtics faithful, and they want to be a part of this kind of team and this kind of history. And so they're willing to do some things they may have not, you know, been willing to do otherwise. So I wonder too, how much of this will be resolved by, you know, there's just a lot more space out there. If Tatum is at the foreign, Giannis is at the 5. I would guess if things go that way, we're going to see that a not insignificant bit, especially in the playoffs.
- [24:58]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, this does feel like almost like a tacit acknowledgement to Giannis that the way he's done things, especially last season where the Bucks basically retailered their team so that he was everything and went out of their way in order to go into extreme debt, unlike we've ever seen before, in order to just get him the type of big that he wants, that he needs to do things a little bit differently. Like, he's still a superstar and things should still revolve around him wherever he goes. But like the Dame situation leading into this now, where, like, the offers aren't all that attractive, just seems like he really needs to hit that next phase, if only to avoid some of these injuries that we were talking about and only to make things a little bit easier on his life. I just don't know how much he could just keep battering his. His head into a wall year after year going into his 30s. And so I think you're exactly right. I almost wonder, Rob, if he needs a Missoula or a Spoelstra as much as he just needs a start and new personnel around him because it would be interesting to see him embrace being more of a five. I think with the Celtics, he could probably still have his preference of having the ball in his hands more than he's used to. Maybe in Miami too. Like Miami, I guess I. I lean more in that direction. One, because I just want to see Miami back on the board. I just think the league is more fun when they're like, more involved in this thing, but also just like, it feels like he could really energize them in a way, but it also feels like he's just going back to something similar to what he knows where. It's like Boston feels like a fresh new idea. I just don't know if he's accepting of that at this point.
- [26:28]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, and as far as the old idea goes, look, the reason we're having this conversation is the Bucks were not a good team last season. When he was on the floor. They were dominant. Like, even still, even with all those considerations, even with that supporting cast like the Yan, any team driven by Giannis when he is healthy enough to do it is incredibly competitive. And so the idea of whether you're throwing that version of that player out with the heat and Giannis is willing to experiment and try some new things with the Celtics, where he's recast in a new light with a very different kind of co star, those are exciting possibilities. For as much as we kind of, you know, rude talking about every Giannis trade rumor along the way, like seeing him be a part of an actually good team again, I think will be just refreshing for all of us.
- [27:11]
J. Kyle Mann
Another fascinating thing is that these are two teams that he could potentially go to that have spent a lot of resources trying to figure out how to stop Giannis. That's why I always thought that the Sixers were an interesting possible in the past, because if you just think about the binders and the like printer paper boxes, of course we're talking about the digital version of that that these guys have. Just especially Spoelstra, if you just think about the amount of time that he has spent trying to stop Giannis. So he knows all that kind of counter factual stuff in his mind about like how we can approach using him. But you're right, Rob. I mean, like, I just pulled it up because I was curious and it is going to be interesting to see if he transitions away from this. If you, if you wanted to say like the. Okay, what was Garnett like? Way more stationary offensive player than a Giannis. Not that, you know, comparing them is going to make it live or die, whether it works. But his, his hard charging ball in my hands. Transition, transition style. Yet 1.187 points per possession in transition as the ball handler, pushing 70% from the field, got fouled almost 30% of the time. I mean he, he's still one of the most unstoppable transition propositions in the world. So I mean it'll be, it'll be interesting. Interesting to see if they can kind of take the pressure off of that and still get a lot of production out of him. If he's more of a half court, you know, you can't be ramming your head into the wall forever, you know.
- [28:33]
Rob Mahoney
Right.
- [28:33]
J. Kyle Mann
You only stay young for so long.
- [28:35]
Justin Barrier
Yes. I think just having like other players so that you can't guard him the entire length of the court so that you stop him from getting ahead of steam will go a long way. Just like getting to a new situation, having more talent. He'll be back on the map in that regard. Well, before we move on here, I kind of want to talk about like a subplot of the subplot going on here where I guess if the Miami package is accepted, it seems like Tyler Hero might get spun off. The Pistons might be interested there. Then there also is the whole, like, conspiracy theory that, like, maybe Isaiah Stewart might also go to the Lakers in that situation. And so I'm just curious overall, what you guys think about Hero to Detroit and second to all that, like, is this the answer for Luca with the Lakers? Like, we've been now two years into this whole mess. Like, I, I guess is beef stew plus Austin Reeves plus maybe LeBron coming back, like the best we're going to get in this situation.
- [29:27]
Rob Mahoney
Well, where do you want to start, Kyle? You want to talk Pistons first or Lakers first?
- [29:31]
J. Kyle Mann
How did we spin to the Lakers like them in the Giannis sweepstakes?
- [29:34]
Rob Mahoney
Well, Justin's driving the ship, so any road can go to the Lakers.
- [29:38]
J. Kyle Mann
You know, like, what is this?
- [29:40]
Justin Barrier
This is just like, I would say this is the other story out there that's like a major thing going into the draft because I don't know, it's just like, as I think through like all these teams that really need to do something, it's just like Lucas been there for two years and we're basically being like, oh, they need to bring back Austin Reeves and then figure everything else out. I'm just like, why? How is this happening?
- [30:01]
Rob Mahoney
Well, she's been there for like 17 months. Yeah, a year and a half. And this is going to be the reality of the Lakers situation is going to be one kind of piece acquired at a time in a lot of ways. And honestly, they got about as lucky as they were going to get in terms of like the returns on Marcus Smart, for example, or even what they got out of deandre Aiden, I would say was above expectation given the player that he was in Portland.
- [30:25]
J. Kyle Mann
A lot of almost got through the year with it with aen. They almost got there and even then,
- [30:30]
Rob Mahoney
look, he had some huge games he had had to show up for. So I don't, I don't want to throw DeAndre Ayton under the bus other than to say this is going to be an incremental project given where the Lakers finances were before acquiring Luka, given the state of the team and how long this thing is going to take to kind of turn around to begin with to reshape what kind of roster you want around him. It's going to be an Isaiah Stewart there, a Peyton Watson offer there. Like, I just don't see things shifting so dramatically for The Lakers, that all of a sudden they're going to come into next team and even then look like a fully formed Luka Doncic operation ready to go.
- [31:04]
J. Kyle Mann
Do you have to move past LeBron to really begin that conversation though? Because it just. I wonder if these two things are working against each other. Because you didn't expect to get Luca, you didn't expect to be in this position. It kind of makes me wonder if you gotta, you gotta move on from, let go of one branch to really free up the resources to enable the other, because. I agree, but he's also so much
- [31:25]
Rob Mahoney
better than so many of the alternatives.
- [31:28]
J. Kyle Mann
It's true, it is. But he eats up so many resources and at this, at this point, you know, there are caveats with LeBron too. I mean, he is. I just. And there is some kind of dissonance between the way those two guys play. Granted they can put up points, but it's like the defensive stuff that you have to. I, I wonder if it just makes more sense to just kind of move on.
- [31:47]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, that's what I'm, I'm starting to wonder if like the real logic behind trading him was to put him into this weird purgatory where he'll just be like, just good enough for the rest of his care.
- [32:00]
J. Kyle Mann
He's still really good. I'm trying. I, I want to be careful to say that he's incredible. He dominated a first round. We went on and on about it.
- [32:07]
Justin Barrier
No, it's, it's more about like the construction of the team where it's just because LeBron is so good, you can't really just like easily move on from him. And because Reeves is coming into his own, you can't move on from him or just like. And if you try to trade him, like what do you get back for all this stuff? It's just like you're really just stuck in this, in this muck and I don't really know how to get out of it and I don't know what you would trade in order to get something good enough in order to put alongside him while still having the role players in order to put together a good team. So it's like, it's like a multi step process that I don't know when it's going to start. And we're now two years into this and, or 17 months or whatever you want to say, and it really hasn't started. Like they haven't turned the page to the Luca centric team. Perhaps spiritually, but certainly not functionally, they have.
- [32:55]
Rob Mahoney
I think they did to an extent last season. And we started to see that shift as LeBron went into more of a facilitating, almost like supercharged Draymond kind of role. Yeah. Before Luca got hurt.
- [33:05]
Justin Barrier
Yeah.
- [33:06]
Rob Mahoney
Honestly, an incredible blow to the Lakers that they didn't get to see kind of that version of the team through to the end of the season and into the playoffs. But I think this is one of those things where LeBron himself is probably going to have to put this whole exercise out of its misery one way or another. He's either he's going to be a part of this or he's going to go somewhere else. Because the, like, hall of Fame golden handcuff situation you're describing, Justin, is so real and so potent. You're just never going to opt out willingly of, oh, we have this guy on our team who can outthink everybody and also is an incredible playmaker and also, even at his age, can be a great, like, glue defender. He has so much going for him in theory and in practice, it's like, when are you going to get out of the LeBron James business? When are you going to sign up for that?
- [33:48]
J. Kyle Mann
It's an odd situation to be in, to be as fun as they could have been and probably. I mean, it would have been really fun to see them in round if they had had Luca, who's tormented the Thunder in the playoffs in the past. And just. But then to also think to yourself, like, this is really good, but we can't. I always think about this is so random, but Banana grams, that game. I think I brought this up before. You guys good at this game. My wife and I obsessively talk about this game. Sometimes you'll have all. You got to use all your tiles. It's basically like Improv Scrabble and you have to, like, use all your. And sometimes you'll get very far down a road and like your board and be like, I got a great board here, but you have like a few pieces. You're like, I don't think I can. And you have to tear down a pretty good board. That's what that feels. This feels like to me, where it's like, the Lakers are like, Jesus, they could have given the Thunder an interesting series. I don't know if they would have beaten them. But sometimes you'll go far down a road, like you were like Rob was saying, and just have to start over because the end. Or you stick it out because it's fun. I don't know. It's a business also It's. It's tough. I'm glad I don't have to make these choices.
- [34:47]
Justin Barrier
You go so far down the road that you're talking about Luca, when you started off at Giannis, I didn't wanna. I know.
- [34:55]
J. Kyle Mann
Well, I didn't want to belittle.
- [34:56]
Justin Barrier
In my mind, they're. They're paired because it's two players like that have been at the forefront of the league trying to figure things out. This offseason.
- [35:03]
J. Kyle Mann
Day before the draft, we're talking about the Lakers.
- [35:07]
Rob Mahoney
We need someone to review the tape and Justin's. Justin's. Six degrees of separation to get back to the Lakers from any given topic is.
- [35:15]
Justin Barrier
Do I talk about the Lakers a lot? Like, you make it seem like forward all your garage LA radio.
- [35:21]
Rob Mahoney
It's not even that you're LA radio. I think it's just. You see the red meat. The editor brain in you is like, no, Luca's right there.
- [35:28]
J. Kyle Mann
We could just jump over there and
- [35:29]
Rob Mahoney
talk about Luca for a minute.
- [35:30]
Justin Barrier
No, I think the show is more like, these are the things that we've been percolating on over until we record the next one. And like, these are the two big stories that I have been spinning through in my brain. I don't know what the rest of the world is talking about. If that is just so happens to appeal to a vast number of fans to. That's just my, you know, expertise just showing.
- [35:50]
Rob Mahoney
I guess you're just out there pruning the garden, thinking about Luke Canard.
- [35:53]
Justin Barrier
You know, I do think I. I do a lot of that, unfortunately, which is probably explains a lot. Do we want to talk about hero quickly? Hero to Detroit. Possibility. No one's going to hear this part of the pot anyway. This is all going to be like, in two hours, he's going to get traded and we're going to have to redo this whole thing. But, yeah, how would that happen?
- [36:11]
J. Kyle Mann
I like that. I mean, what do you.
- [36:12]
Justin Barrier
They would just spin them off.
- [36:13]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, I'm. I'm scintillated by the possibility as far, you know, Tyler here is a hard guy to find a good home for. Right. To find the perfect combination of every factor of the exact kind of playmaking around him, the exact kind of defensive coverage, the exact kind of like potential pick and roll partners. Somehow Detroit has all of the stuff. And especially because he could wind up with, you know, a Milwaukee team that may or may not be super interested in his services. Like, I think that could make all the sense in the world for basically everybody involved.
- [36:43]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, we're talking, we're writing about in the draft. They're, they're trying to find that type of guy through the draft. And you're just hoping that one of these guys can elevate and rise to that level and help out Cade. But if you look at the way the Pistons are built, it's like, okay, we have this pillar, this, this synergy between Durin. Granted, everybody's got to hold up their end of the bargain, but we got this guy who can, you know, get in the paint and score. We could spray, we could score, we draw fouls. We need somebody next to Cade to sort of lighten that, add some more oxygen to the offense. I think Hero would be actually one of the better options. I think there that. I really like that fit because you kind of let him be himself a little bit too. We're like, you don't have the burden of being like our full time playmaker. Just go be cocky. Audacious Tyler Hero. Hit big shots, spackle when you, when we need you to. I think that'd be an awesome fit.
- [37:30]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, Tobias Harris was about as important to the Pistons as any player was to any team in the playoffs. So long as that is the case. Tyler Hero is a massive, like, schematic upgrade, skill upgrade. Like, I think what he brings out in your offense is just so much more balanced and diverse.
- [37:48]
Justin Barrier
I think this is the advantage to having the context that they do have. And a lot of that stems from having such a giant creator doing things that like, impacts the defensive end. And also just having the defense around him is that they are a welcoming home for the type of players that I think a lot of teams overpay and probably want to get off of because they don't rise to the level of being like their frontline guy. The Tyler Hero types like the, the. The on ball, like, juice guy that, like, might be a six man, but, like, we got to play him at the starters because that's just what his reputation suggests. Like, if anything, they seem like the perfect recipient to that. And so, like, I still don't know why they didn't hit the button at the trade deadline, but at the very least, they seem like they're in a good position. Position this offseason to, to add. And it seems like there is a little bit of urgency to what they're doing anyway.
- [38:36]
Rob Mahoney
So, I mean, it would kind of be the promise of Jaden Ivy fulfilled, you know, if that, if that wagon hadn't lost every one of its wheels and gone into the river this is. This is kind of what we dreamed that it could have been.
- [38:47]
Justin Barrier
All right, let's take a break, and when we come back, let's talk some draft stuff.
- [38:53]
J. Kyle Mann
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J. Kyle Mann
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Rob Mahoney
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J. Kyle Mann
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Rob Mahoney
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- [40:20]
Justin Barrier
All right, the draft is hours away. Less than 24 hours away at this point. Point. Kyle, how you feeling? Just, you know, it's right on time that you just published a. A mock draft recently, almost at the finish line. What's going through your head right now?
- [40:36]
J. Kyle Mann
This is the time of the year where it's kind of like, I said this to Zach Low the other day. You. You have a moment there where you're like, did I study enough for the, you know, the SAT or whatever it is, that moment of panic of like, am I ready or what? But really, the. The work happens through the year. And, you know, it's like the work's kind of done now we just need to see where the chips fall and. And then we react to it and see, you know, and just kind of cast judgment on who's dumb and who's not based on what, on our short term reactionary kind of thing. And that's the way this works, right? We do it every single year.
- [41:05]
Rob Mahoney
I'm not your editor, Kyle, but I got bad news. The work is not done. You have a lot of podcasting and writing ahead of you, so.
- [41:11]
J. Kyle Mann
No, I mean the preparation, Rob. That's what I'm referring to. We've watched all these guys. Unlike you, I value the.
- [41:17]
Rob Mahoney
That's the thing.
- [41:18]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah.
- [41:19]
Rob Mahoney
For some of us beginning, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm still getting up to speed and really, until I see some of these guys in summer league, I'm not going to believe that they fully exist because to me, they will only be a YouTube sensation. So we're, we're nearing the point of these being real corporeal NBA players.
- [41:34]
Justin Barrier
All right, well, we're going to try to loop into the draft in a way that Rob can at the very least tolerate. So what we're going to go through is a couple teams that have big decisions in the draft, but also big decisions waiting them in the off season because they're in this weird in between ground where they have a high pick, but they're still built kind of more for the now. And so Kyle is going to walk us through the pick for the team, why that would happen and then we're going to get through some of the ripple effects that would come as a result of that. So why don't we start at number two, which I think is going to be the most interesting point of the draft. It seems like AJ DeVonta more than likely is going to go number one. I think Kyle would agree. He has him there in his mock that's out right now, which you should read on the ringer.com Number two, though, Kyle, I think is where things could swing. Do you think that the Jazz go Cam Boozer or do you think if Darren Peterson is still on the board that they would go with it?
- [42:24]
J. Kyle Mann
I'll pretend to say this with confidence, but I think they're going to take Cam Boozer. This is very similar to the Palo Pablo or Paolo Chet Jabari draft where things kind of went up to the last minute because we're continuing to hear new reports about like, oh, turns out Darren does want to meet with the Jazz or the Jazz in New York potentially work out with them. Hard to say, but we're going to go ahead and just assume that the, the Boozer connection there, that, you know, the organizational taste historically kind of aligns with Boozer and, and just kind of go from there and talk about the fit of that, which is what we're doing here.
- [43:01]
Justin Barrier
Right. So Boozer could potentially be the better player. It sounds like you have him number one on your board and it sounds like a lot of people are coming around to Boozer late in process. The process being that guy. I think a lot of it's driven by the analytics. I think it's probably just like the more people dig into Darren Peterson perhaps are starting to like be a little bit more shaky on, on drafting this guy as high as possible. Do you want to walk us through just quickly, like why you have Boozer number one and like why you would pick me even over to Bonsa.
- [43:27]
J. Kyle Mann
I'm always careful to correct people or eager to correct people. What. However you want to put it, that it's not just an analytics thing for me because this kind of reminds me of the Yokich thing where I'm like, people just say that over and over again where they're like, well, well, it's the analytics. And that's all. It's like, no, man. I mean like people say that people get. People who think the Jokic supporters are weird, you know, often will throw like you analytics boys, you know, you dorks and your indie rock band T shirts that just like numbers. It's like if I, if, if you need numbers to see how good Jokic is or how good Cam Boozer is, I'm just kind of like numbers.
- [44:03]
Justin Barrier
How about wins?
- [44:04]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, I'm just like, well, I'm just, you know, I need to take you to an optometrist is my thing. It's like he's, he's so good. You watch a basketball game and he, he impacts it in such a wide variety of ways. You know, if he had been born, you know, if, if he were playing in the NBA in the early 2000s, would he have been catching, you know, a million post ups like Al Jefferson or like his father Carlos Boozer who played that way? It would have been a little bit different. But his skill set is very wide. He has catch and shoot game. We talked about this on this show just this last week. I think he's gonna, he can add to your game without.
- [44:38]
Justin Barrier
He's.
- [44:39]
J. Kyle Mann
I'll put it this way, among the top three guys, he's the least like, I need to get a ton of shots up to be super effective or to get the most value out of me. He will. He is role malleable in a really mature way. He can score a ton for you. I think Boozer would also be content being like all right. I'm getting 18 a game and seven assists. Like he's willing to play however you need to play.
- [45:00]
Justin Barrier
And then the issue here, Rob, is that this is now another front court player after they just added one at the trade deadline. They were already a little beefy up front with the team that they already had Ace Bailey, also a pretty big wing. And so if you draft Boozer, you have Boozer, you have Jaren Jackson, you have Lowry Markkanen, you have Walker Kessler, you have Ace Bailey, you also have a bunch of other draft picks that they're just kind of being like, these guys are fine. Cody Williams. Cody Williams actually was like, had a nice little pop. Yeah, yeah. So what do you do after that? And I guess how quickly do you need to do something after that? Like, do you make a move immediately? Do you take advantage of. For instance, Detroit would be very welcoming of one Lowry market, as we've been saying for years now.
- [45:41]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [45:41]
Justin Barrier
Or do you want to play it out? See, things are happening. What, in the draft room, if you were there, what are you recommending?
- [45:47]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, I. I want to play a lot of it out. And some of it is if there was going to be a piece that would feel materially different after drafting Cam Boozer, it would be Walker Kessler. And we've already seen some of the numbers that have been percolating with his extension negotiation had five years, $140 million on the table. According to Tim McMahon, that was not satisfactory to Walker Kessler in his camp. I think the math on that changes a little bit if you have Cam Boozer in house. The desperation to keep Walker Kessler changes a little bit, but you also want to retain him to potentially flip him to another team. So it's not like they would just cut bait. Not like they would trade him immediately. I think you can slow play sort of process, but the size of Ace at the two, Lowry at the three, and a Boozer, Jaren Jackson front court is very appetizing. Like, I. I think that is an incredible kind of, like, allotment of skill and flexibility and mobility to throw out there all at the same time. Like, that's a version of the Jazz that if. If I were Utah, I would really be looking to cultivate. And Walker Kessler can be a part of that or not. And if they draft Cam, I would assume that over time, it becomes clear that he probably will not be a part of that blueprint.
- [46:58]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, I think the. The interesting thing about taking Boozer here is that as opposed to taking Peterson, is that you are kind of signing up for moves that you need to make or maybe a lack of a move with the Kessler. I still. The interesting thing between that has muddied it a little bit for me is like they are going to have to figure out the two spot. They're going to have to. If they want to go big like this. You're talking about a real lack of like off the dribble creation. Like you have Keonte, you can. I'm. You're not. Are you gonna play Keonte and Collier together? I just think you need to have a little more creation at the two spot there. Maybe you use some of the leftover pieces that you have there. Maybe you can go get a Tyler hero. I don't know to speak go with what we were talking about, but we. The argument that I made in the mock was that I think I would just kind of look at it as like this is a good problem and take be like somewhere in this, in this cluster of what we have is something that is going to be really valuable that we can kind of sculpt around. I think this, the most simple proposition here is just like Boozer and Jaren Jackson Jr. Next to each other is kind of my starting point. You know, I'd love to keep Lowry around, but both of those guys can shoot it. So I'm not really losing front court shooting. That's. That's kind of where I would go from there. The, the Keonte, Boozer, Jaren Jackson Jr. Triumvirate is something that I can really work with.
- [48:15]
Justin Barrier
And you're okay with playing Jiren Jackson at true five, especially considering like you know, against like big old boys, which the league seems to be adding more of these days, especially with Wemby terrorizing the league and teams like kind of building theirselves in order to counter him. Like him being the five and also like the lack of rebounding that comes with it. I guess from a talent standpoint, yes. Like Jiren over Kessler is obviously a clear winner there. I just don't know fit wise, like there's a lot to work with and I, I like the fact that they would have an identity of being like the biggest, baddest team like across the board. But I do wonder if like threading the needle seems a little bit more difficult than perhaps like just like, yeah, we'll just go with this guy over this guy, you know.
- [48:59]
Rob Mahoney
Well, especially there's a version of having a bunch of size on the floor that just makes you like the Orlando Magic, you know. It's like, yeah, you're big and you're tough, but you're also kind of awkward and inflexible as a result. And Kyle, I think. I think you're right to single out the ball handling in particular. If they do have designs of playing ace at the 2 and Keonte as their kind of go to point guard, their offense is basically like Keonte and the blunder. Right. It is him initiating a lot of stuff off the dribble and the ball movement and the spacing resulting from those other guys creating offense for you. But maybe that works and maybe it doesn't. I think it depends on how heavy the stakes are for the Jazz in the immediate future. Given everything we've seen from him and their willingness to be very patient with every single, sometimes excruciating step of this process, I would think they're going into this season trying to feel it out more than anything, trying to understand if that Jaren Jackson Cam Boozer combination could be one that will work full time. And that's yet another reason why you don't cut bait on someone like Walker Kessler immediately. But again, you kind of tease that into the season and you work all three of those guys into your front court together. But as far as other moves they could make too, I think if you do draft Boozer, you probably do need to make like one veteran free agent wing signing of a kind. It's just like those guys are so young and so unproven in some cases. Like, I like Bryce Sensible as much as anybody, but I think you need somebody who's a little more seasoned and who you can bring off the bench in like certain alternative situations who isn't like Zvi, you know, Like, I think you need something else there. But if they were going to end up with a Darren Peterson in this spot, they might desperately need either to bring back Yusuf Nurkic as this backup center or a Yousef Nurkic alternative. So you can see kind of the downstream stuff as far as their bench goes with this pick as well.
- [50:39]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, it's. It's interesting. You were talking about them like, stay. Staying with the, like excruciating. The Jazz, they're like, commitment to stay with the excruciating bit is like Neil Hamburger level. Like, it's like, what, man, we are really sitting in this. In this for a long time. A couple kind of. Of pro arguments to kind of say what to answer what you were saying, Justin, about like the rebounding stuff, like you're adding an elite rebounder in Cam Boozer I think he's going to cover a lot of the sort of neurotic things about the way that Jaren Jackson plays. That that will help. And another thing that's working in your, in your favor here is that Jaren has kind of developed to the point where he can kind of drive closeouts a little bit. He over the course of his career has started to drive the ball a little bit more. So that would differentiate, differentiate them a little bit from the Orlando Magic kind of thing there and then. But yeah, you're right about like weighing it against Darren is like so much of this is sight unseen because last year the, the, the lineup that they ran out when you said sphere reminded me, yeah, it was the heaviest minutes lineup that they ran was Keonte's V ace Lowry and Yusuf Nurkic. So we're really seeing a lot of things for the first time here. I would be really tempted, I know I have cam mocked here, but I would be really tempted to just roll out Peterson there because that just, that would immediately make sense that that basketball team I think would be a playoff, you know, a lower seated playoff team immediately.
- [52:00]
Justin Barrier
This is just the unfortunate part about going out and doing the Jaren Jackson trade when they did, where it's like you almost feel locked into thinking about the fit more than you probably would at this point because you have all this stuff here and it is tougher to get like the exact fit you want once you've already have the names on the paper in order to make all the math work and all the actual like finite just strategic stuff work. The other part of this is just like the money is starting to add up very quickly like in two years. So once Keonte George presumably banks in extension, he's like up for it and then he's going to have it lock in. Then you have Jaren Jackson making 51, you have Lowry making 50. Kessler is going to be making what probably 30ish around there. George like probably 30 to 40 million at that point. Like I was trying to approximate it and like Jalen Green for instance is making 35 on an annual value. If George has goes out and has a good year to, to kind of build upon last year, like all of a sudden like you're getting more than that. We're already talking like pushing 200 million just with those guys alone. And then you add in another high draft pick. And the problem with the high draft picks is they're coming in with pretty sizable salaries at this point. The number two draft pick last year, Dylan Harper, makes about 12 million. So this isn't the type of thing where it's just like you're waiting for those guys to assert themselves and then they make the money. They make a pretty good salary just from the start. So there's just like a lot to figure out sooner than you hope for. But I am coming around to the basic logic of drafting Boozer, if only because, like, if you think he's the best player, like, there are options for you still to figure this out.
- [53:36]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I think especially for a franchise that is so desperate for cornerstones even still.
- [53:41]
Justin Barrier
Right.
- [53:41]
Rob Mahoney
Like Keonte. George Popping was such an important development for the Jazz because it was even just the hope that, hey, this is a guy who could be around here for a long time. He could be driving offense for Utah on the ball, off the ball, even off the bench, whatever his long term role ends up being, but could really be a part of this. And like, whatever you may think of Darren Peterson, there's so many questions swirling around him that just don't really seem to be there with Camp Boozer. I understand all the arguments with Cam about his athleticism and how that factors into the NBA and what he will and won't be able to do as a pro. I get it. He just feels like a safer bet for a team that yes, needs stars, but needs like a safe, bankable star bet. And maybe Darren Peterson is that, but maybe he's not depending on the eye of the beholder, talent evaluation wise.
- [54:24]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. All right, want to move along here? I have up next, the Clippers at 5. Kyle, who's the pick?
- [54:31]
Rob Mahoney
Pick?
- [54:32]
J. Kyle Mann
The pick is Keaton Wagler. The justification for this is, I mean, it's been hit ad nauseam. It's just if you're, if you're in the Darius Garland business, which they've chosen to get into, that kind of scratches off a lot of the options on the board because, you know, you don't want to really go in with a huge exacerbated guard defensive issue here. And the guys that kind of fall into that category of like, I don't really know why I would do that would be Darius Akov. Michael Brown is offensive. You know, he has a lot of defensive problems. Kingston, Flemings, LeBaron, Filon, Christian Anderson, Abuko, Corey. On and on and on. It's. We're out of the small guard business. Keaton Wagler is 6 6. I think he projects as sort of a guy who will sort of straddle the line between some primary stuff. I don't think he's going to pound the ball and play pick and roll the way that he did at volume at Illinois, where he's just kind of like pounding it surgically, finding his spot. He's capable. I know Rob, you've seen him a little bit. He's one of the dudes that you have bothered to see. He can kind of shoot the ball. He could play off ball really slick with a lot of that stuff. So I think he and Garland, you'd still have defensive issues because you're wispy, you're light, you're, you know, you're, you're more skill driven back court. But I think that he would be the pick. If you're going to, if you're going to decide to keep a guy, there's all kinds of permutations where they don't keep this pick, but assuming they do, I think Wagler's the guy.
- [55:46]
Rob Mahoney
Well, to me, the other part of being in the Darius Garland business is you need somebody who has that on ball, off ball flexibility. You're talking about Kyle, but you also need somebody who could potentially fill in as a primary when Darius Garland is inevitably injured. I mean, it just kind of like happens. He picks up all these random ailments these days. So the idea that, okay, this is a secondary facilitator who makes sense kind of patiently working off of Darius Garland, working off of Kawhi, whatever the near term vision of the Clippers ends up being, but also can take over some of those responsibilities when you need him to. That, that to me is very appealing.
- [56:21]
Justin Barrier
I guess my question overall, Kyle, is how much of the logic for this pick is just that Wagler would be the best player on the board at 5 because there's a clear tier at 4 if anyone hasn't been following the draft. And then there's just all these guards. Like, would you pick Wagler for the Clippers in a vacuum or are we considering the Garland fit and how much should we consider the Garland fit at this point? Like, is he the guy that is ultimately just going to be a stop gap or are we thinking going forward, let's extend him, let's make him a part of whatever is next.
- [56:52]
J. Kyle Mann
Wagler is very good in his own right. If you wanted to just pivot away from Garland and say, like, you know, there's. And there, there have been worries about Wagler's athleticism, about that he's a slow mo guy. I think we've seen enough in today's day and age that you can play that way and be an effective Lead guard. You don't need to be, you know, putting pressure like dunk pressure on the rim every single time you come down the, down the court. I have, I mean I've gone all over the map with this pick in terms of guys that would fit better. If I'm trying to build a playoff team. One of the ones that I've circled back to over and over again is buries. And you know, one of the first mocks. I don't just, I don't know if you remember it. Was it the first one where I mocked buries there and that was mocked in the comments a lot. I got a lot of just like, you idiot, there's no way the Clippers would do this. And then, oh, lo and behold the reports come out that Burry is being. Yeah, anyway, I know I did this online now.
- [57:45]
Rob Mahoney
Kyle, talk your. You gotta, you gotta, you can I.
- [57:50]
J. Kyle Mann
It's just we go into the playoffs and we do this thing every year where we're like, okay, well the upside of him scoring and his pick and roll and his shooting and blah blah, blah, blah. It's like we just do all that. It's like. And you get to the end of the year and it's like all that stuff was adorable. But it's like when you get into a series where you're being picked at over and over and over again. Would you. This is, this is a classic like Trey Young, Derek White thing that we talked about that we've joked about a lot where I was like Derek White upside on ball and stuff like that. No, not necessarily. Trey Young's upside is higher on that, that you know, type of thing. But is Derek White going to get picked on in a playoff series? It's, that's what we, we have to have like winning driving our mentality whenever we talk about these guys. And that's just my problem a lot of time where I get off course with people. So I've considered Burry's there because I think he's a better two way player. I think he is an encapsulation of what we were talking about there. I think Wagler is going to get better defensively. You know, it's just. He's one of the other guys. I guess it kind of comes into a question of do you want to. The guards are sort of the, the implied players there. Do you want to reach for a, a Morez Johnson? You want to reach for a, a Yaxel? Linda Borg? That high, these more playoff ready players. That discussion, I, I think it gets A little rich to reach for those dudes there. That's. That's kind of where I am.
- [59:01]
Rob Mahoney
Well with that guard debate too.
- [59:03]
J. Kyle Mann
That's a lot. I know.
- [59:04]
Rob Mahoney
No, no, no. I, I think there's a lot of food thought there as there should be with the Clippers in their situation. Like they have one of the stranger circumstances to kind of fall into this pick in the first place and where they want to go if they do draft a guard. I think not only shapes how you think about Darius Garland and the future of the backcourt, but what happens with some of these other guards on the roster too. Right. So it's like if you, if you do take Wagler, Chris Dunn is extension eligible. And to me that is like a no brainer. Like you should try to get Chris Dunn under a couple more years under contract because his defense is going to be even more important playing off of both of those two guards and kind of alternating back courts. But the other huge piece of business that the Clippers have is Benedict Matheran's restricted free agency. And if you do end up going more defense first with this pick, in terms of like, you know, someone like Buries, for example, is the math on Matheran even stranger in terms of you're willing to invest more than say the mid level or a mid level adjacent salary for a player like that because you need his punch off the bench maybe a little more than you would have expected to otherwise. It's just going to affect the rest of the shape of this backcourt rotation period. And with two of those guys kind of up for financial consideration, I think we're going to see some of the effects pretty quickly.
- [60:10]
Justin Barrier
I think the Clippers are just in the unfortunate situation where they have no other choice but to build on the fly and just to keep doing that and keep stacking good moves because they just don't have their picks until I think they don't have control of it until 2030. And so I would like to say like lean into Kawhi's last year and just be the best team that you can be. But I also don't believe that because I don't know how that's going to happen. And I also feel like that already has such a defined ceiling to begin with. If anything, it feels like they're kind of stuck in the situation they were after trading Chris Paul and they got all this stuff back and they just happened to overachieve. They got Shay in a trade and all of a sudden they eventually spun that off into Kawhi. But like if you could just be good enough and keep getting steadily better. And like, if Garland, for instance, doesn't totally fit, let's trade him a deadline from now, right? Like just basically like trading out parts here and there as opposed to like forming the Megatron from the jump. I just don't see another path forward at this point.
- [61:09]
Rob Mahoney
I also think even within that, yeah, it's a little haphazard and there's going to be some fits and starts as far as building the next version of this team. It still feels really exciting to me, right? Like Darius Garland getting a chance to kind of reframe who he can be as a creator without some of the like, guard to guard, overlap or obstruction. However you want to think about it of what he was going through in Cleveland, I want to see what that version of Darius Garland is. Janikkon Niederhauser, when he comes back from injury. Oh my God. Just like absolutely popped in the middle of last season. I want to see what he looks like for a completing version of this team. And now you're bringing in another potential guard to work alongside those guys. There's just like another wave of Clippers coming up that I thought, to be honest, we were going to have to wait like four or five years before they found those sorts of players again post Kawhi. And to have them here during this time. Yeah, it's a little like two timelines. Ish. In terms of what they're trying to balance, but I don't think they have a lot of alternatives to what you're talking about. Jv. They do just have to take these things as they come. And as they're coming, they're at least bringing in like good young players in the door who are going to be interesting for the Clippers for a while.
- [62:13]
J. Kyle Mann
Can I ask a quick question? Just a real jumping off for the Clippers is we keep talking about this like it's an immediate. I even did it during this conversation where I was just. It's like, well, this has to fit with Darius right now. Are they a playoff team next year and how much is the like, urgency of win now driving this? Because if you think about the fifth pick, is it, is it worth it to take a woggler if he's going to be. If he's going to be your second unit guy and get those. Let's just say he's that if he comes in and he's the. The guy who you. Maybe you stagger a couple of the starters with some bench guys and then wagler takes over as the main guy. Is the. Is it a failure if you take the fifth pick and he's kind of for two or three years playing in that role? Or does he need to. If you take him at 5, is like, we need this guy to come in and be a star like immediately. Like how I guess where the Clippers are and whatever this, this timeline they're on is. Is drives that I would think they
- [63:08]
Justin Barrier
were 20 and 15 after trading harden and Zubac and so like they were pretty okay. I think it just really like lays on how okay are you with. Being pretty okay is like really the ceiling for this team. And like if you think that's a good thing, that like the expectations are low and we're just going to have as much fun as possible and we'll go from there, then it's fine. Otherwise then it can get pretty bleak pretty quickly. But I just think whatever pick they have should be thinking about first year. Shay is the goal where it's like he does enough to be a contributor to a good team, play some defense, move the ball, be a connector, do whatever you can on offense and move, deal with the future down the road. Just, just be like a contributor to a healthy environment. I think would be a good start
- [63:53]
Rob Mahoney
for the Clippers and then eventually he becomes the best player in the world.
- [63:56]
J. Kyle Mann
Well, I was gonna say, but that was also the, like the 4th, what, 14th pick I get. You know, I guess I'm. I'm just asking you, is it. Is that a little more stomachable than if you take Shay at 5 and then, you know, I guess that's what I'm wondering.
- [64:07]
Justin Barrier
But yeah, yeah, I mean they looked into this pick to begin with, so I guess it's all found money to a certain degree. All right. Hawks are up pretty active in this pre draft, pre free agency sort of period here. Aaron Wiggins for two seconds seemed like a no brainer. Like just have to be able to accept the salary and give nothing back to the thunder. Done. C.J. mcCollum, $21 million for just giving it to the Knicks really bought him some leverage there. But at 8, they have a nice little opportunity to add a good player. Kyle, who do you think they should go with for their pick?
- [64:41]
J. Kyle Mann
There are two train tracks ahead of the Hawks here and there are people who think that they could reach and you know, address their rim protector, defensive anchor thing. They need another quality big. But I think it's a little rich to reach for a daimara here. Based on. I do have some kind of questions about his craft around the rim. In terms of the score, there's the minutes, the volume of minutes kind of thing. There is the. They're just kind of out, you know, outstanding questions. For me, I think it would be really, really beneficial for them to go with a drinkster or like, you know, Kingston Flemings, who is the fastest guard in this class. I think he's tougher than he gets credit for. I think he's super smart. I don't think he's a bullheaded. Like I just have to pound the shit out of the ball and score all the time, like a Colin Sexton type player. I just think about him adding to the already kind of established, really great defensive perimeter personality of this team. Already an incredible in transition group. Very physical. He would elevate those things and make them. I. That's the pick that I have projected there for the Hawks at 8 because I think that he would do great in Atlanta.
- [65:51]
Rob Mahoney
So yeah, yeah, this feels like you made this pick to appeal to me personally. Like the idea of putting in Kingston Flemings with the Nikhil Dyson Daniels sort of like hellish perimeter rotation, I mean, really speaks to me, really speaks to my sensibilities. And I think if we're talking about how do the Hawks get to the next level, clearly they need more independently driven offense, right? Like we are, we are getting post flow into like who has the shake off the dribble. And that's somewhere where, you know, Aaron Wiggins, for a guy who's coming in off the bench potentially, like has a little bit of that one on one offense that could really help them. Hopefully Kingston can give them a dose of that too. But without taking away from all those other defining like attributes of what made the Hawks so good down the stretch of last season and makes them still so interesting going forward, I think the
- [66:38]
Justin Barrier
question might come down to whether or not they should make this pick to begin with. Like, are they so far along that actually we should be looking to spin this pick and not take a young guy into just a veteran player? Because we show that we're at a certain level, especially late in the season and pushing the Knicks to the only team in the playoffs that actually got two wins on them. There's a popular rumor about maybe trading this pick for Trey Murphy. I think that would be great if only for the comedy of giving back the Pelicans their pick for one of their best player. That seems like everybody wants incredibly mean, but also I think it's the type of guy that they need because he's young, still has more in him that perhaps another team could unlock, but he also allows them to level up. And so like that. Just as more of a timeline fit than someone like Flemings, you might need a little bit more time. Kyle, what do you think about that? Like you. Would you rather Flemings because of the fit or are you thinking like the Hawks are in a different phase right now?
- [67:33]
J. Kyle Mann
I, I think the fit is great there. You know, if you, if you think about a Trey Murphy, how much does that affect sort of the strength of the thing that you already have? Like, do they need to change their perimeter core? Because bringing in Trey Murphy would change their. You've already got Kaminga coming in that you're trying to figure out how to play. Granted, the Pelicans might want Kaminga knowing them, but I just, I think Fleming's. There's a hole on their roster that he fits into really well. And I think if you think of people worry about the small guard thing, it's like, no, I mean like in shoes, he's 6 foot 3. Maybe he doesn't have the longest arms in the, in the world. The jump shot isn't pure, but he's like a shot maker. He tends to. He's very, very fast getting to his spots. I think the wide open nature of the NBA game, he is going to pop even more, I think because it was definitely a cluttered offense with bigs that had very narrow. Like the two bigs for Houston were limited in their own ways in a way that really kind of hurt Houston spacing this past year and Flemings was still really fast getting downhill. So I think if you think about the way the Hawks are built, I just think he would really, he would really help them. And another quick thing about the defense with him is if you're a small guard, the things that you can do to bridge the gap and make you less of a liability, which Brunson has kind of figured some of these things out, is that he is really bullish and aggressive in his like helping in retreat kind of principles. He's really competitive in those areas. I think Kingston's going to figure those things out. I would like him with the Hawks. So I, I think he's a good enough fit that I would go ahead and take him here.
- [69:04]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. For as much as Trey Murphy could help the Hawks, I, I'm not so forward pressing on the timeline for them. Like Jalen Johnson's 24 years old. You know, like there is time here to bring along another college or college age prospect and hope that they can be a core member of this team for the foreseeable future. There's nobody who's like, really on the advancing side other than CJ that you're really worried to have to replace. And even he's only on the team for one more year under contract. So to me, it feels like a really natural handoff point for them to bring in another guard who, yeah, may be coming off the bench for the course of this season, but then could eventually take over the reins and be a critical part of driving the offense.
- [69:42]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, I thought their biggest issue last year, especially in the playoffs, was just the depth. And it seems like by adding Wiggins, bringing CJ Back, maybe adding Flemings, maybe adding somebody else, at the very least they'll round out the version of team that they have now. Trey Murphy, as good as he is, seems like he's more of a finishing piece to an already established core versus what the Hawks are, where they really just, like, don't know who they are right now. And if anything, perhaps I want to save my powder and like, if I need to trade Fleming's like, wait for it to be like a true blue superstar who is like a clear, like, companion to Jalen Johnson, not just someone who augments him. They don't have their pick next year goes to San Antonio. That's like some factor, but I think they're already going to be so good that it doesn't really matter to begin with. So I agree with Rob. I think they just kind of take Flemings and go for it.
- [70:25]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I mean, they also have the 23rd pick to play with and they could flip that into another veteran guy, potentially a big. I mean, we talked about that. As far as what this team really needs, like, I thought Akongu really proved himself as a starting level center for most circumstances, but Mo gay as a backup 5 like Asa Newell, we'll see if he's ever really fit to kind of play that role for them. I honestly don't know. They just need, like, a little burl there and all of their alternatives. You know, the Jock Landale, Tony Bradley types. Like, all those guys are going to be on the open market and free agency this season. I think it makes all the sense in the world for them to play with the possibilities and not back themselves into, like, the Jock Landale corner just because, like, see what's out there, see what you can drum up, see what team might need to get out from a center's contract to make the moves that they want to make. I think there's an opportunity there for them to do something, and maybe it comes with attaching that 23rd pick to make it happen. I don't know.
- [71:18]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. All right, two more here. Dallas at nine. And before we recorded this, they just got a new head coach because Rob refused to take the job. Dusty May, who just sounds like a Dallas coach, like a Dallas sports coach. Like, it's like Jimmy Johnson. Jimmy Johnson was like, he's from Arkansas. And so I get it a little bit more. But, like, I know Dusty Mays like an Indiana guy, but Dusty May just feels like the type of gunslinger who just doesn't take no for an answer.
- [71:47]
Rob Mahoney
He is an Indiana guy, but he's absolutely also been the Cowboys quarterback coach at some point in time. Right. Like, maybe not up for the head job, but a positional group without question.
- [71:57]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah.
- [71:58]
Justin Barrier
Kyle, really, what do we. What do we think about this guy? Yeah.
- [72:02]
J. Kyle Mann
Incredible climb. I mean, Dusty May, I had it pulled up here. His. His coaching history is. Is really wild. I mean, he just, he started out at Florida Atlantic, I believe in 2019. Just built that program from nothing. Had them in the Final four, goes to Michigan, has successful, wins the title in year two. He's just. I don't blame him also for getting out of college basketball because it is just a. An absolute train wreck mess right now and dealing with that headache. So. But I think in terms of, if you're the Mavs, I think this guy has the right temperament to coach an NBA team. He can like, chew. He can chew on that ass when he needs to. I've seen him get fired up and, and get on guys. But he also is very mellow and kind of level most of the time. So. And I'm sure that, you know, I'm sure they vetted this with Cooper and, you know, talked about it. And I, I think. I think this is a great opportunity for him and I think it's going to work. I. I like it. And it also opens the door to, like, is this going to open the door to maybe taking one of the Michigan guys at that spot? So it's interesting on that level too.
- [73:07]
Rob Mahoney
Well. And just continued signaling that the Mavericks have the right priorities in place after not for at least several years there. Right. That this is going to be a longer term process. This is going to be building around Cooper, that this is a program. Right. That you're trying to cultivate and build from the ground up in terms of personnel, in terms of culture, in terms of all those things. And in doing so, I mean, not only do we just not see many college coaches jump to the NBA at all anymore. Although, as you're alluding to, Kyle, maybe we'll see more and more of it as they get frustrated with the ins and outs of navigating the transfers and everything going on with Nil right now. I was trying to remember any coach I could remember winning a championship in college and then immediately going to the pros. Because this is usually the time where you squeeze, right? It's like you. You flirt with the Lakers or whoever and then you sign the like insane. Come on. Like, this is. This is just what happens.
- [73:57]
Justin Barrier
But like, well, Billy Donovan, right, signed up almost the magic almost, and then. And then aborted.
- [74:03]
Rob Mahoney
But then he went back to college,
- [74:04]
J. Kyle Mann
held the ball in the picture, which is wild.
- [74:07]
Justin Barrier
And I think he was rumored to even be in the mix for that job again, which would have been a real coming, coming, full circle moment. Well, I'm glad you brought this up, though, because there really are so few examples of this. When I felt like when we were younger, this was happening a lot, and it was more about like, taking the cult of personality and bringing it over to the NBA and maybe leveraging that for, like, for. For gates, like, for. For receipts. It's really Brad Stevens, Billy Donovan, and then on the bad side, John Bayline and Fred Hoiberg. Hohberg wasn't bad per se. He was just like, it's fine. Yeah, he got dealt a pretty weird team there. I do wonder, like, not only because Nil, perhaps in the rigors of the job in college, might force guys to think about this more now, but is there any opening, considering the way the league is going, where someone who's maybe more strategically aligned, for instance, like, I thought that would have made sense a lot last year for a guy in UConn, just because, like, his. His system felt a little bit more sophisticated than what was. Was typically running college. I think it would have applied a little bit better to the NBA. Is there more Kyle, like, is there more reason to go to coaches in. In college than ever before?
- [75:17]
J. Kyle Mann
I think there's. There's a differentiator there between like, Hurley and May in that. I still think Hurley is a little bit from the last generation of coaches of traditional sort of crack the whip, like, coach really hard. His style, the motion kind of approach. It's just. So it's a different type of a buy in, I think. I don't. I don't know that it would have ported over to the NBA. Super, super. Well, but. And another difference too is you talked about Beeline, you talked about Donovan even reaching back. Like Patino and Caliperi going to the NBA. Those were guys who just. It, it's a little different I think, with Dusty May because he is a part of this new ascendant crop of coaches that are in the college ranks that are so analytically driven, that are just forward, forward thinking that I think it makes sense for him to sort of leap. And he's thought of one of the more progressive basketball minds in the country. You know, I know he had a team that just basically had the most like old school, bludgeon you to death with size kind of thing. But he's, he's a. Considered a forward thinker. So I think that he'll on that front just be. Jump right on the, the. The spinning. The already spinning merry go round of the way the NBA runs now.
- [76:24]
Rob Mahoney
It does seem like a tough thing to navigate though, for a lot of college coaches. And this, I think the Fred Hoiberg example is kind of instructive of a guy who could walk into a college system and just have an authority based off of that rank alone. And you can, you can talk to players a certain way, you can deal with them and address problems in a certain way. And then you go to the Bulls and you have to like manage a locker room with Jimmy Butler and Rajan Rondo and Dwyane Wade. It's like you are just in over your head so quickly. The difference is like, I think if you are of, of kind of the Dusty May mold, it's a lot of your currency comes from, yes, you've done all these great things in college, but you come in, it's like if you're helping guys, whether it's helping them win if that's the goal, or helping them develop if that's the goal, players respond to that kind of thing more so than just like, you know, being the big swinging dick college coach who can just like throw your weight around in a locker room. It's so much about like, how do you appeal to these players on their terms in terms of what they need from you? And it does seem like he might have the right kind of temperament and approach for that as much as anything.
- [77:24]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. All right, so they have number nine in this draft. Kyle. Do you think this affects anything that they're going to do? Not only just because obviously he comes from Michigan. You have Merris Johnson, you have Mara, you have all these guys in there, Lindenborg. But also like, do you try to lean more in direction in Terms of like, stylistically, anything you might want to do.
- [77:45]
J. Kyle Mann
It did come to mind to me that I've made this parallel on a few different shows now that Linda Borg in particular is a guy that we've discussed who has a really wide range of offerings. He's 24 years old. There's people who are worried about that. But started late. I compared his developmental arc and path to Pascal Siakam, who started late and just sort of like rocketed upward. You know, he just started getting. He just. His rate of improvement started as a late teenager in a way that Yaxels did. But there's been like maturity concerns with. With the Axel and how he interviews and things like that. You know, lest we forget, the guy who drafted Siakam is now, you know, involved with the Mavericks. So I just. And if you. If you wanted to think about a situation that could absorb somebody in those concerns about Yaxel, who is a very good player, does all kinds of stuff. It does kind of seem like the Mavs are increasingly a candidate that. To do that. And I think you could play with Cooper and give you a little bit more passing. He can play with anybody, but so there's that. I don't know if it necessarily means they're going to reach for like an Adai Mara. I think that's a little high for Morez in terms of the type, the player type. Even though I love Morez, I still have Braden Buries mapped there because I think that he would be an excellent companion with Cooper. I think he'd be a great two way player. I think that he'd give Cooper a shooter out there. He's a guy who can run some point guard and still allow Cooper to kind of take the majority of the reps. I think that he's an excellent sort of tandem, like a pairing there for him. So yeah, I still think that that's probably who they should take.
- [79:16]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I mean, the consideration for the Mavs is who fits with Cooper, flag who makes sense long term with him. You want to prioritize the talent, but you want to at least have a vision of how it might work together. I also think for where the Mavs are having someone who. I don't think Dallas has any urgency to trade Kyrie Irving right now, and nor should they. But having someone who can handle on the roster so that when you get to January and February, if it makes more sense to trade Kyrie Irving, then you don't have to like scramble and reconfigure everything you're doing. Offensively it's like, oh, my God, we have to get under their guard in this deal because we literally don't have enough infrastructure to allow Kyrie to leave. That feels like the kind of freedom this team could really use right now. And frankly, I think as a broader philosophy, getting the level of depth that lets you let go of Kyrie and P.J. washington and Daniel Gafford and some of these, like, vestiges of the last version of the Mavs, that's kind of the position that Dallas is in right now.
- [80:10]
Justin Barrier
Have you guys been following the reunion of the 26 Cavs title team? That's been happening, I believe, in Scotland.
- [80:17]
Rob Mahoney
Is it in Scotland?
- [80:18]
Justin Barrier
It's somewhere like that where they're basically on a big old mega rich guy golf outing.
- [80:24]
J. Kyle Mann
Is it making anybody else feel old? I mean, those pictures are making. It's been a decade.
- [80:29]
Rob Mahoney
It doesn't take anything to make us feel old these days. I was like, get up off the couch and I feel old.
- [80:34]
J. Kyle Mann
Granted, those guys are, like, kind of my age. All of them. Yeah. I was looking at those pictures, I was like, damn, it has been a decade since that happened. Wow.
- [80:42]
Justin Barrier
Not only does it make you feel old, but then you see guys like Richard Jefferson trying to mine it for content, where he's doing, like, Instagram, TikTok memes based off of those guys all hanging out together. And I'm just like, it has a real, like, old guy still trying to get after it sort of vibe. And I was like, oh, God, time has just slipped away from me, hasn't it?
- [81:04]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, we. Well, we are the old guys still getting after it in our way. So I. I hope it's still allowed. I hope it's still a thing that we can do. What did it for me was Dave McMenamin was posting some, like, flashback photos to that 2016 run and just seeing LeBron, who looks like a totally different person physically. Like, in terms of his frame, his build, like, he. I mean, he looks understandably fit. It was. It was a very slim fit era for sure. And it's just been a long time since we've seen that LeBron. That's all.
- [81:31]
J. Kyle Mann
He's.
- [81:32]
Rob Mahoney
He's doing great at 41, but, you know, it's a different time. Yeah.
- [81:36]
Justin Barrier
And they were like. The parade was like. They were just in, like, flatbed trucks, too, in Cleveland. And, like, in comparison to what was going on with the Knicks, where it's just like Fat Joe, every own float seemed.
- [81:46]
J. Kyle Mann
Every person had their own. Yeah, that was pretty amazed by that. Mitchell Robinson had basically a monster truck that he was riding.
- [81:52]
Rob Mahoney
Well, that's, that is his style. I think he has several of those somehow.
- [81:55]
Justin Barrier
Oh, gosh.
- [81:56]
J. Kyle Mann
Pretty crazy. Well, I was just like, if you're in a neighborhood with a lot of little kids, I hope Mitch is riding that thing pretty slow because I was just amazed that the, the kids were like under the, the frame of the truck. Like they're at their standing height. I was like, hope we hope we got some speed bumps in that neighborhood. That scared me.
- [82:12]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, there were a lot of health issues going on for that Knicks parade. I don't know if you guys saw some of those, but there was, oh my God, like, congrats, congrats to the
- [82:20]
J. Kyle Mann
next liver damage, health issues.
- [82:23]
Rob Mahoney
I would say just the absolute basement of foot issue. Related content Just. We got to get out of the gutter, guys.
- [82:29]
Justin Barrier
Like, what are we, what are we doing? Okay, last one on the board here, Golden State at 11, Kyle. Who's the pick? Give it a little Kyle, though.
- [82:42]
J. Kyle Mann
This is, this is a tricky one because I want to get your all's perspective on this because I think you kind of have no choice but to approach this as we can't go pure upside. Like, this guy might help us someday. You know, I think you're, you are. You know, I know Golden State fans are probably going to wince when they hear this, but you're going to have to have a two timeline thought process with the one person that you take in this situation and somebody that's going to be able to give you something now and then be a part of whatever this next. You know, we, I said in the guy here that like Steph is pushing 40 years old, this can't go on forever. As much as I enjoy seeing them do another run potentially, I have Adai Mara as the guy that they pick here. And my reasoning is in the immediate term, he's gigantic. I think that he's, that, that just put him on the court. You got to avoid him. He's big, gives them a rim protector, gives them some depth in the, you know, the Frenchman dominated looming kind of thing going on in the Western Conference. You get some Porzingis insurance in the short term in case he's in and out. We could kind of have both of them go. And then I also think offensively he fits the way they play. Very, very good passer for somebody his size. For any size, he's a great passer. And then, you know, going forward, you've got a seven foot three guy who potentially could turn into an above average defensive anchor in the NBA. So that's my thinking. What do you all think about that mindset with this pick?
- [84:10]
Rob Mahoney
I don't have any objections to the mindset. I just like, what is this front court? Like, what is. What are the warriors going to do where there's, you know, there's rumblings that they want to bring back Kristaps Porzingis? We'll see if that happens, or how much he's able to contribute or just like what his state is generally. Don't know. Draymond Green is obviously at a very peculiar place in his career in terms of what he gives a team and where he should be playing in the lineup and how Al Horford is a player option and could just like bolt out the door at any time if he would like to. And honestly, the best versions of this team are still the versions that play like moses Moody or GI Santos or Jimmy Butler when he's healthy at the 4 to begin with. And so I'm a little worried that, I mean, look, the warriors have lots of problems. They have lots of limitations. They're banking on aging stars of various kinds for a one last ride kind of thing. But as far as their bigs, there's a little bit of like, if they draft a big here in particular and then also have a lot of these kind of old timers or guys who are not as available as you'd like. Like, where's the Goldilocks zone of this is an actual good player who can play 70 regular season games and give us good minutes at a time where we desperately need it. Like this is. There is no longer the luxury of just bringing in 16 game players anymore. It's like, how do we get through the season alive? And then if you do and Steph is in, in good health and playing well, how can you maximize it going forward? I have no idea how they do it.
- [85:33]
Justin Barrier
Are we past the point of James Wiseman induced PTSD of like, Dancer is a big? Because I felt like we got to the point where we, we move past it and like we're actually at our best. Small ball finds energy. Let's just go to what works. And then they bring back Kristaps and then you bring up Mario. I'm like, you know what, it'd be great if they're a little bit bigger and had something a little different than they're used to in order to counterbalance all this other good stuff that they have. But just like the fact of doing that, like, I almost feel like they move past It. And so I don't know like how to feel about just the idea of going big at this point, especially because as Rob is alluding to, like, they just need good players here, which is becoming increasingly difficult because they have so much money tied up in Jimmy Butler and Steph Curry. And also if Draymond is coming back.
- [86:18]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [86:19]
Justin Barrier
And then because they're also like trying out there, being like, oh, let's go after LeBron, let's go after Kawhi and just be like the Expendables. And so I just don't know how all these things fit together.
- [86:29]
J. Kyle Mann
Is it acceptable to draft a backup big that could play in a playoff scenario at 11? That's a question you got to ask yourself. Because, I mean, I think so. I mean, if he's going to hold up in a playoff setting and then eventually he could become the starter. Because I think some of the on ball sort of guys, they're risky. I mean, if you, if you think about taking like, you know, some of the guys that are mocked in this range, I mean, Dalen Swain is a guy for Texas, he plays for Texas, but I bet Rob has never even heard of him or seen him play like a big, big guy. Big guy, six, seven, each guy who can really handle the ball. But it's going to be dared to shoot. So that's going to be a, like, I don't know how that's going to work in the playoffs defensively with like a cam car, he's going to get attacked. All the small guards, those are non starters. As much as I've, I've mocked LeBaron file on there before, but stylistically I don't know that he fits the Warriors. You'd hope maybe long term we could play that. That's my, that's my kind of thing there. It's like, I think in the short term, taking a backup big who can help you in the. And it's not just Wimby, it's the other big teams in the, in the West.
- [87:30]
Justin Barrier
Sure.
- [87:31]
J. Kyle Mann
I think having Mara would be a helpful thing to have on a playoff team in the short term. So that's kind of, that's why I'm
- [87:36]
Rob Mahoney
thinking that I think that's the issue with the like big. How should the warriors play big versus small debate. It's. It's less about like, what is their optimal version and just more accepting the reality that Draymond can't do that all the time anymore. Al Horford, if he's back, certainly can't do that all the time anymore. So they just sort of need size by default. Unless you have another anomalous playmaking four who can play the five just like you can find under a rock somewhere. Like they, they just need something a little more conventional in a bunch of different respects. They need some front court size. They need just like ballast on the wing. I'm not really sure where they're going to find it, especially if like D. Anthony Mellon's another guy who could just kind of walk out the door if he would like to. And I think there's a lot of winning situations that he or Horford could potentially sign up for that would be more promising than Golden State. We'll see what they do. Maybe they just like being around and being a part of this team. But also, I mean even if the on ball options are a little dicey, as you mentioned, Kyle, they just need somebody who can initiate. Like you can't put Steph through the meat grinder of this through yet another year. And Jimmy Butler, hopefully being out there and healthy for a good portion of that will help. But you need more than that. Like they could really use another guard one way or another who can actually drive something on offense.
- [88:45]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, I wonder if there's a way to split the baby here. Whereas like, if Mara is the extreme where we're saying we're just going to get the biggest old boy and perhaps he could be a nice little counterpunch. Like are the yaksles the Moraz is like, do they have the girth and like the physicality that could bring something, something different, but more in like the 43 mold and obviously like while still having more upside. I think the unfortunate thing is they didn't get higher in the lottery because you get a guy like Burries for instance, where it's just like you kind of unleash him in that sort of Shea role that we were talking about before. Just let him do work and then just like develop from there. Like to me that is what they need. And I almost feel like maybe what they shouldn't be doing is like trying to chase after 40 year olds in order to, to get even older and like make next year the only year that matters. At the very least, like pry open like, like move up in the draft, pry open something and like maybe just like try to get a two, three year run going here. But they're in a tough spot regardless. I, I, I honestly don't know what they do from here.
- [89:40]
Rob Mahoney
I'm not sure there are two three year runs. I think if you're at Golden State. Every year is a one year run and it's just like, what can you do? What can you roll out there? How can you make, you know, Steph and Draymond and Jimmy Butler and Steve Kerr's life a little bit easier in the process? We'll see what they have in the books.
- [89:56]
Justin Barrier
All right, why don't we wrap it there? This is a long one, but, you know, it's that time of year. There's just so much to talk about, including the Lakers. We'll be back on Wednesday after the draft recapping all of the most important things that happened. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. We'll talk to you next time. 21 and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or or 18 in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem call 1-800-Gambler or 1-800-My reset call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York, Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.