Kyle Mann (2:16)

These things don't just happen to me all the time. It's not something.

Justin Varior (2:19)

Here's the question I'm left with. Did the cat go into the planters or did you and the cat go into the plant?

Kyle Mann (2:24)

No, I didn't fall. I stood there frozen and almost pissed my pants because this thing scared the. Well, I scared the piss out of me. No, it just jumped. I don't know if the cat's all right. The planter, it was so loud. And I was just like. I sat the thing down. I don't even know the people that. The house where I was at, it was Megan's friend. So I was just like. I just fled the scene scene. I was like, I gotta get out of here. I hope it wasn't their cat. I hope it's okay.

Rob Mahoney (2:50)

The story. Just so we get the nuts and bolts straight, Kyle saw a cat.

Justin Varior (2:56)

That's.

Rob Mahoney (2:57)

That's the story, right? That's.

Justin Varior (2:58)

That's the whole thing, I think. So. Is the cat available to, like, give their side of the story? Can we get the cat on the next bot and we'll just pace the side? Yeah, like a mock trial for the next couple episodes.

Kyle Mann (3:12)

Yeah, maybe we can get the. The translator thing from Mickey 42 or whatever the movie is to figure out what's going on with the cat. It was a lot. It was a very trauma. And I texted you guys. That was clearly a mistake. Okay.

Justin Varior (3:25)

So, no, I think that was the one thing that you did correct.

Rob Mahoney (3:29)

We appreciate it.

Justin Varior (3:29)

Well, yeah. All right, well, glad to see you. Glad that you're all right. We hope that the cat is out there. All right. You have our best wishes, cat, here in our thoughts. You're listening to the Ringer NBA show presented by FanDuel. FanDuel now displays your bet directly on your phone's lock screen. And with the latest updates to the live events and player pages, it's never been easier to be part of the game. And Missouri, get excited because FanDuel's coming your way December 1st. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game. 21 plus and present in select states or 18 and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut.

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Justin Varior (5:10)

We're going to talk today about some Eastern Conference team, a conference that is just all over the place. I have no idea what to do with this. So we're going to kind of try to parse through it all and make sense of it. But first we have to talk about the Oklahoma City Thunder. As we're recording this on Wednesday morning. They are the only undefeated team left on the board. Eight and O Last night, Rob Dork goes out. They still don't have J Dub wearing just a giant suit on the bench. The Clippers didn't have Kawhi we should mention, but that game, like what seemed to be their first loss, mounting slowly but steadily, just became a title wave that just completely subsumed the Clippers body in that one.

Rob Mahoney (5:49)

I mean it really did. It felt like a classic Thunder game in that way where yeah, James Harden, you can have your explosive first quarter and it just becomes impossible to sustain over the course of that game. And the Clippers were taking it super seriously, as you have to when you play the Thunder. It just didn't mean a whole lot. When you get into the second half and you get into the teeth of that defense and you have the reality of what it means to be hit by these guys over and over and over and locked up and have your, you know, your pocket picked over and over and over. And I was thinking about that JV as, as you know, without Dortmund and they've played without chat some this season, obviously they've been without J Dub and it's just like there are so many stakeholders in their defense that it makes it almost impossible to destabilize because they do lean on all those guys and they lean on Kayson Wallace and they lean on Caruso and they lean on, you know, great effort from Shea and Aaron Wiggins and Isaiah Joe and down the line and it just becomes this like really impossible effort in the regular season to really knock them off their axis. And so when we think about where the Thunder can go, and I think we at this point have to, given the start that they've had, it's just really intimidating as a regular season matchup. Clearly as a playoff opponent. I just don't even know what you're supposed to do with these guys at this point.

Kyle Mann (7:04)

Yeah, after watching the East, I mean, it was an east heavy first part of the slate last night. Switching to the Thunder, I was still in Isaiah was like it was just a jarring thing to do to see like in the basketball sense, like to watch these teams just trying to figure out who they are. And I know we'll get to the east more, but like the, just the slogging it out in the half court, like trying to find a plan that leads to a higher quality of shot. Ok, see, I was just laughing at the way that game unfolded because you were talking about how they just lock you up and wear you down. It almost like reminded me of like one of those Alabama teams that would just run the ball, run the ball, run the ball, run the ball, run the ball, play action. Like that's the way that game ended. Like they just soften them up and then they hit him with a counterpunch out of nowhere, man. I mean like AJ Mitchell, like just the luxury of being able to roll out to start the fourth quarter with against the second unit. An old second unit for the Clippers, I might add.

Rob Mahoney (7:54)

Jerry Trick.

Kyle Mann (7:56)

Yes.

Rob Mahoney (7:56)

Prehistoric second unit, if we're being honest about it.

Kyle Mann (7:59)

Poor Bogey. I mean there have been times in my life where I almost bought like a Serbia. Bogdan Bogdanovic, I love that guy. And I just felt so bad watching him try to evade AJ like, you know, they're rolling out Chet, you know, Aaron Wiggins, AJ Caruso and I heart. And it's just crazy to watch them just effortlessly the, the, the Mitchell thing is just ascending to another level of seriousness. I, I, I posted this my Instagram. There was a, there was a staggered play where Chet roll or Chet popped and Hart went to the, to the basket and AJ goes to his left hand, gets into the paint really low and snaky with his dribble. He throws a left handed. It was a night of nice left handed, live dribble, skip passes. But he just throws a freaking dart to Wiggins in the corner. Or maybe it was Isaiah Joe and he just knocked it down. It's just their process is just so good and they have so many luxuries that Other teams just don't have.

Justin Varior (8:50)

So if any team that just won the finals lost, let's say the second best player, I think we would all feel it. There are times out there where I forget that J Dub is a part of this because it works so seamlessly. And then you think about it as Rob was alluding to, there have already been pretty significant injuries and also games that have gone down to the wire where you think like, oh, they went so deep into this game, maybe they just punt the next game. But it just never happens. Like, Chet is still working his way back from what I think believe was three stray absences due to a back issue, which something to flag going forward because you're going to need him down the stretch.

Rob Mahoney (9:24)

But like he does in this game too. Yeah, like he's constantly get, like, contesting people at the rim, driving and attacking himself like he's taken hits even while he's come back from injury.

Kyle Mann (9:35)

Nasty screener too, like, for.

Justin Varior (9:39)

They just like they're. They're like the state puff Marshmallow man where they're just adding more and more. Or maybe like a T1000 where it's like, oh, I just lost my arm. Nope, I just grew a new one. It's just there's like, there's no hole there when supposedly a top tier, like top 25 type of player goes out because there's just guys on top of guys on top of guys in order to fill in. It's. I haven't seen anything like this much like, I guess people wouldn't have seen the T1000 when he first raged across Los Angeles.

Rob Mahoney (10:10)

You did break new ground, shout out to all the good work that the T1000 did. Really, really pushing the envelope.

Kyle Mann (10:18)

Standing for the T1000 is a nice take, JB.

Justin Varior (10:21)

I like it.

Rob Mahoney (10:22)

You know what? He had some great points innovator. I did have that thought. You know, when this game against the Clippers felt competitive, right before it really slipped away and the Thunder just took that thing by the throat. It was like, eventually OKC will lose one of these close games.

Kyle Mann (10:36)

Right?

Rob Mahoney (10:37)

Like eventually they should. But also, what if they don't? Like, what if they just continue to do this where it feels competitive in the middle somewhere and they just run away with it or it feels competitive down the stretch. We've already seen them pull out two double overtime games this season. When you have this kind of defensive buy in and you just keep giving teams 48 minutes of hell, or I guess, you know, 58 minutes of hell in the case of Those double overtime games, like maybe they just won't lose those games. Like, they have so many guys who are so ready for those moments and clearly they've shown it on the playoff stage, but also are just regular season gamers as well. I just don't put anything past them. They have one of the best individual closers in Shay. They have an overwhelming defensive front and team cohesion. They have all of that depth, they have all of that youth. They have the ability to survive any injury, as we've been talking about. Basically, I just think that they are so uniquely positioned for regular season dominance in a way that we just have not seen certainly since the Dynastic Warriors. And that's kind of the threshold and the standard that this team is going to be held to is like, can you live up to history, basically? Which is crazy for the Thunder just so soon after really cresting into a championship team.

Justin Varior (11:49)

So Rob brought up the Dynastic Warriors. It's a good segue because the Thunder are now 8 0. It's the best start in their history. So in the OKC history, surprisingly, there haven't been a ton of 80 starts recently in history. There have been a ton, but last year we actually got one in Cleveland. I believe they pushed it up to 14, I want to say last year before they finally lost one. So that's something to keep in mind. Milwaukee in 2022. So the 2022, 23 season, that ultimately was the one where they end up losing to Miami in the first round. But they got the first seed in that game. The next team on that list, the 2015, 2016 warriors, went on to win seven three games that year. So is there much of a marker there? Does it suggest anything long term? Probably not, but at the very least, I think it suggests they are amongst the teams that are going to rattle off wins. I think the bigger question, Kyle, now is like, do we think that they're going to challenge for some of those bigger markers, the 73, the 70s, the 72s? Because it's odd. Like we look back last year, they already won 68. And we're all saying they're better and deeper and more prepared for this stuff. So 70, especially after what we've seen, doesn't seem that difficult.

Kyle Mann (13:02)

Yeah, it's partly the things that we've talked about, how they have these sort of side processes that they're not burdened to be the main featured event because you have a Shea, because you have the MVP on your team, but you have the development. It's Just money in the bank that's just, that's just growing over time in the, in the chat, development in the J dub when he comes back. But I think another thing that's really interesting is this is a self sustaining process because there's no entitlement. You know, you also, you have the accountability, you know, top to bottom that we talked about that some of these teams that have had success, like, you know, Miami obviously has it right now, but there's a lot of examples of it. But they, they don't have any kind of entitlement within their personnel where guys can be like, I know I'm going to play so I can make the choice to kind of like take a, take a break here or whatever it is. Because there are guys coming up, like AJ is just pushing, pushing, pushing and they have all this youth. They, they have guys that are coming. Obviously, you know, topic want him to get better. Obviously we got, you know, Sorbert hasn't even played a minute yet and people love him and believe in him. So you just got all this like from the bottom pressure that's going to eliminate any kind of entitlement. And that's partly what makes me think that, that this is possible. Because it's not going to be like we have our proven veteran stars who are just going to be carrying the burden of taking the best punch when they come to town from the team. It's not like they don't have to necessarily. They're going to, to play hard and live up to that on a lot of nights, but they're not going to be carrying the full burden of that because of the top to bottom sort of vying for more, vying to get better, you know, stuff that they have from their younger players.

Rob Mahoney (14:34)

Like they're just all in that foxhole together, right, where you have like that kind of mutual development and mutual investment in each other. It's like it is an ideal modern roster in a lot of ways, but it also is like an ideal competitive environment that Oklahoma City has built, which is a stunning thing to have to do all of that under the strictures of the salary cap and the tax and the, the aprons and all that. But like they, it's striking to watch Shay in particular, who like his version of a title hangover is, I'm just going to score slightly more and slightly more efficiently than I did during my MVP season. He just rattled. He started like canning threes against the Clippers last night just because he could. And he feels like he is at that point where he already has such an easy command over the game. And so when you have a star who's doing that and this incredible competitive developmental atmosphere where all of these guys are kind of charging forward together, I, I, I just, I hesitate to draw the line almost anywhere in terms of what they're capable of. And even while saying that it's not going to be easy to challenge for any of these records, clearly like winning 70 is an unbelievable achievement. There's a reason it's so rare in n and when you think about kind of those two benchmark teams, the 2016 warriors or the 96 Bulls, you know the warriors started out 24 and oh, we are at 8 and oh right now.

Justin Varior (15:49)

Right.

Rob Mahoney (15:49)

So there's, there's a long way to go to even get to that start. The bulls started out 23 and two like it is. It's just impossible standards. And yet I find myself with this Thunder team just thinking that they're capable of almost anything.

Kyle Mann (16:02)

A couple bullet points. I think that to tack on to those two teams that have done it, number one, I think we over lionize the late 90s, even the NBA at times. I love it. I grew up in it. I'm nostalgic for it. The league was decidedly not as good. I mean the talent level, see that there were some shitty teams and, and the, and the Bulls with their, the energy of Jordan coming back and all that stuff, they pounced on people with, with their continuity and everything. But and then the other thing is that the warriors, the warriors, when they did it, it was such a unique, shifting, tectonic moment. I think that they were just grabbing bottom shelf, lower hanging fruit in the way that they played that I just don't know that that's going to be replicable. So you're right. I think it's going to be a challenge because I think this is a little different. Granted their situation is very different because of the way their, their organization is set up. So I don't know, I don't know if that's different enough to propel them, but we'll see.

Justin Varior (16:53)

Yeah, I think last year was a proof of concept. Not only that OKC is one of the best teams in the league, but that if you're a role player, you buy into the system and your role because you know you could get something more down the road. There is no disease of me because when Shake il just Alexander is your top player who used to be more in the role player model but became the MVP in the league. You fall in line or you See someone like Dort, who has just steadily done his role, all of a sudden just get this opportunity to be one of the best role players, best wing defenders in the league. You play your role and so if you're Kayson Wallace and it's like, oh, maybe I need to handle the ball more, it's like, it'll come. We'll find time for you in the middle of November. Because that's what we do in the lesser games. We just give guys opportunities. And so they've really struck on something that few teams have, which is to have their cake and 82, to have the superstars, but also have the guys buy into a system that they won't ever like, try to go outside of the lines.

Rob Mahoney (17:46)

Totally. I mean, the reason we're having this conversation, the reason we're here is because the Thunder do stuff like last season, played AJ Mitchell on a two way when they didn't have to do that because they believed in the talent and they saw something in him and they gave him the opportunities to make mistakes. Make mistakes even in the NBA Finals. Right. Like have those chances and, and when you do things like that and you invest in the right guys, all of a sudden you, you start knocking on a pretty special door.

Justin Varior (18:09)

Yeah. AJ Missile plays in the finals and then plays in summer league. Like you won't get that anywhere else.

Rob Mahoney (18:15)

Nope.

Justin Varior (18:16)

But we should mention Thunder play back to back. I think it's their first one tonight in Portland. I'm going to that game. That's like a first test. We'll see. Like, do they start sitting people there? Are they fatigued?

Rob Mahoney (18:25)

The mighty Blazers are the first test.

Justin Varior (18:27)

Is that what you're saying? You're not charging me for that one.

Kyle Mann (18:30)

Just waiting.

Justin Varior (18:31)

Also, this is the first of their first longish road trip. Like this is a four game set on the road. That's the first like data point. Right. When we start talking about the bigger 72, 70 sort of goals there.

Rob Mahoney (18:43)

I will say though, like, as far as the long term planning and the possibilities of what they could reach for not having J Dub to start the season and then getting him back could be a really interesting, like if he comes back in there 15 and oh, and gives them another kick right then there's, there's something changing, there's excitement, there's, there's reason for even more optimism. I'm like, that's a really unique element to a team that's already starting off like this explosively.

Justin Varior (19:07)

Yeah. What if this is the most injured that they are this season? We'll see, but they could just actually be stronger in a month or so than they are right now. The West Oddly enough, the cream rising to the top as I'm looking at the standings. Okc, Spurs, Lakers, Denver, Houston, Golden State. Like those are all the teams we expected to be there when we did the preseason projections for a lot of these teams. East, not so much.

Kyle Mann (19:34)

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Kyle Mann (20:37)

This episode is brought to you by Spotify Portal for Backstage Bet you're wondering, what's Portal? Well, it's an internal developer portal built to improve improve developer experience and boost productivity. All software components are centralized. Documentation is automated and easy to maintain. New projects and components just a few clicks. With your best practices already built in, think less friction, more innovation. Ready to double your productivity? Try Spotify portal@backstage.Spotify.com We had the Bulls.

Justin Varior (21:07)

At first winning a slobber knocker against the Sixers to claim that spot. Sixers still in the second Detroit, Milwaukee, Miami, New York. As Kyle was mentioning, east just kind of. I don't know what to do with it. On the one hand I'm like, well, you know, they beat up on these bad teams. But then I look in this like all the teams are kind of bad teams or like middling teams or just teams sorting themselves out. And on that note, we should probably start first and foremost with the Orlando Magic, a team I think we all expected to be near the top of the standings. There was a glimmer of hope this weekend. They beat the Wizards convincingly, but then Rob last night seems like it went back the other way.

Rob Mahoney (21:47)

Yeah, beat the Wizards convincingly Also beat the Hornets. The mighty, mighty Hornets, other than that, have not had success against almost anybody. Right. Like, eked out that win against the Heat on their opening night, but it's been a lot of losses. They've struggled against every good team they've played against. And I think they're at a point where they still, even after making this huge investment to get Desmond Bane, just have no margin for error. Like, if their defense is not elite, and it has not been elite for the majority of this season, they're going to lose. And it's like, that's where the dynamic of trading for Bain just, like, has not paid off yet. And there's many reasons for that. There's many, like, weird blips involved in kind of what's going on for them offensively. But in a lot of ways, it's also the same old story, which is. It's a lot of churn on the perimeter, handoffs into pitches, into swing, swing, but, like, nothing actually creating an advantage whatsoever. And it's. It can be very frustrating to watch, and it's been very ineffective.

Kyle Mann (22:41)

Have you guys ever heard of. I mentioned this a couple years ago when I was watching the Pistons, and I. I thought of this again. Have you guys ever heard of destructive interference? It's an audio term. No, it's where two. It's where two waves have the same shape, and as a result, they cancel each other. So I think what. What is happening on Orlando is you start from the fact that we have two primary options. And I was trying to think back of any, like, primary duos that were just downhill pressure, but not good shooters, but also not elite passers. And I was trying to think over history, how many times that is that it has worked. If you're on Twitter or wherever, just hit me up and let me know if you can think of an example of that. But I think you start from the fact of what Rob was saying.

Justin Varior (23:21)

Would you say, sounds fun having people hit you up on Twitter about that?

Kyle Mann (23:25)

Yeah, anywhere. I'll let you know. You know me, you know where to find me. No, I mean, pal, Paolo and Franz. I mean, you just think about Rob. What you said is true. I mean, it's. It's like they. You start with that, that, you know, proposition, and then you just kind of go from there. It's like, where in the world is there, you know, advantage creation going to be happening unless Paolo is in transition or Franz is in transition. You saw that again a lot against the wispy wizards, where they were just feasting on that stuff, but against a competent half court team man, I found, I found a pretty damning stat here. Whenever they do get the defense to tilt against them, this is a synergy stat. So 25% of their possessions where the defense is tilted against them have been turnovers. The other 35% of those are three point attempts and they're only hitting like 29% of those. That's the, that's the highest turnover mark. So basically what is happening is whenever they, whenever the defense does pre tilt and a lot of the time that's just like give a little gap help to prevent Paolo from going downhill, it's often Jalen Suggs or, or Anthony Black trying to drive and make something happen. And they have just been a lot more chaotic I think than is sustainable. Like Suggs has been weirdly kind of hot doggy at moments. I don't know if you all noticed this like throwing wild behind the back passes or turning and like looking at the bench as he shoots a three. He, he's a confident player, but there's.

Rob Mahoney (24:52)

Just been too much three. For the record.

Kyle Mann (24:54)

Just absolutely. There's just been too much erraticness and I, it's. I think all of that is kind of causing. I don't know. I'm curious to see if you all think that there's something with Bane that they need to just tilt or change or, or what it is. They're just not even on the advantage situations that they're getting. They're not converting them into good looks and even when they get the looks, they're not hitting them. So it's just this like flaccid fart sound offense. And when the defense has been bad too, you're just, you're not going anywhere.

Justin Varior (25:22)

Well, oddly enough, it seems like the inverted pick and roll with, with Bain screening for Bankaro has been their most successful look where it feels like when he's finally getting free and getting downhill against a scrambling defense. There's something to that, right? Yeah, unfortunately a lot of the times he's just, he being Paulo is just isoing against a set defense and I just don't know what's happening. A lot of times, Rob, when I'm watching Ban Carroll, I'm like, who told you you were supposed to do this? Like, where do you get the audacity to just like pretend that you're Kobe when your main advantage, you being so big and powerful is so useful in set in certain ways, but not in this way that you keep doing it. And there's a lot of problems. But I think that the conversation ultimately circles around their best player just not being at the level he needs to, to be doing and playing the way he has.

Rob Mahoney (26:10)

So I think some of that is definitely Paolo's fault. He is routinely settling for shots that he shouldn't settle for. Some of it is also just the way that this offense is set up. And all the things we've been talking about where because they fail to create those advantages one on one or in pick and roll or whatever, it's so easy to switch against them, it's so easy to zone against them, it's so easy to junk up everything against what the Magic are trying to accomplish. And then so Paolo ends up with the grenade with seven seconds left on the clock and tries to make something happen and can't. But that stuff is frustrating. And at the same time, like, you can see him trying to be a screener. You can see him trying to push and transition, to do like all the things we're wringing our hands and like begging him to do. He tries to do that stuff. They just don't have the spacing to accommodate it. Even with Desmond Bane. And some of that is just. I don't even know what to say at this point. Classic Orlando Magic shit of they bring in a great shooter who suddenly like cannot shoot.

Kyle Mann (27:02)

The shot quality is not good. I think we need to point to something else too that is maybe a sneaky subplot to this is the Wendell Carter Jr. Of it all. Like I, I feel like for years, and I've been guilty of this is you love the high. It's so hypothetical in so many areas. Like, he's not a great pick and pop player. You know, the most he's ever hit in pick and pop is 40% on a very low sample. He did that in 23, 24. But this year he's at 29 and a half on those shots. People don't respect him. He's not a big time lob threat. And if he's not a rim protector, I just, that's just another body. And you're right, like when they turn the corner to get into the paint, it's crowded in there. I mean, it's crazy crowded. I mean, you'll see them bringing three and four guys in there. And I was talking about the advantage conversion thing. If you have non manipulative passers like Anthony Black and Jalen Suggs, you're just asking them to overextend what they do. If they have, if they catch it and they have an advantage and they're getting to the basket and finishing or whatever it is. You just frequently see them in a crowd being like, I. There's nowhere to go. And that's when you start to see the crazy passes all over the place. And. And that's. That's definitely a part of it. But I was going to say to D. Silva, man, there was a moment, there was a definite, like, burst of life moment in that Hawks game last night where he caught it, gave it to. I think Wendell Carter Jr. Got it back on a back cut. I was just like, that would look like basketball.

Justin Varior (28:25)

Wow.

Kyle Mann (28:25)

That.

Justin Varior (28:25)

What was that?

Kyle Mann (28:26)

That just happened? I don't know how it is. Is there something that needs to be kind of rejiggered with the way that they're playing that would help is kind of what I've been wondering.

Rob Mahoney (28:33)

Well, think about what you just said, Kyle. Like, how alarming it is to watch a Magic player back cutting. And I think some of it is like, they are so spacing pills for, like, all the reasons we just described. They're so focused on maintaining their spacing and maximizing and trying to stay in their spots where they can knock down threes to make the defense play them. Honestly, that there's just no movement on the backside. It feels like so static. And you can't be static because of the wall on the. On the front end of the offense and static on the back end because you're terrified to move. Like some. Something has to give.

Justin Varior (29:03)

Yeah. And that's why Suggs, despite being chaotic, it almost feels like that chaos is necessary because he's just doing things that are just so unpredictable, but also making things happen that break free from just the stodginess that's going on across the board there where, like, he's playing limited minutes. I almost feel like that might be the biggest difference between them being just okay on offense and being just completely putrid because on top of just his hustle sparking different things there, he will also like. His in between skills, I think, have just gotten so much better over the past two years where he's just being more of a connector in order to connect the dots between all those big players that are just fighting for any ounce of space there. And then we should talk about it. They don't have a lot of, like, knockdown shooters. And while Suggs shooting, I think is an open question, considering the history he had that one awesome season and last year he reverted back. There's a lot of data suggest that, like, a lot of that was because he didn't have the other guys around. But like him not being out there to space I think also factors in there. And so I think Suggs in a lot of ways we've talked about, like if they ever had to make a move in order to deal with the money problem that's going to be on the horizon. Like Suggs is an obvious candidate. Suggs is a central personnel as far as I'm concerned. And even though they bring in all these high money players, Bain being another one, still feels like he's the most important guy to making that all work.

Rob Mahoney (30:23)

He's really critical. I look, first of all, I think it's too early to talk about actually making moves with this roster. Like they are figuring it out. Guys are shooting both above and below their standards. But in Bain's situation in particular, like this is a guy who has led basically every team he's ever played for in three point makes and right now is like tied for third on the Orlando Magic. So like some of that is good, right? Some of that is like Wendell's spot ups hitting. Franz's shot seems to be back in order in a way that is good for the Magic. But like Desmond Bain has to be a more impactful offensive player. Some of that is going to be how he's deployed and how they learn to use him and how these guys learn to play off him. And they're just going to need to find their way collectively to find some semblance of offense. Of course, like if they're defending like this, they're really doing themselves no favors too. Like they have to get back to the Orlando Magic standards of like on ball physicality. Like it's jarring to watch these guys just get blown by and then over rotate and then the Atlanta Hawks without Trey Young picking them apart, like systematically picking them apart like that, that cannot be your baseline if the offense is going to be even remotely this bad.

Kyle Mann (31:30)

Let me ask a question that has been asked many times before. What's going on with Jonathan Isaac?

Justin Varior (31:38)

He has a 10 minute minute cap apparently.

Kyle Mann (31:43)

I mean even in those he looks, he just looks like somebody that ate too much pizza. Like he doesn't look like Jonathan Isaac anymore. Like, am I wrong?

Justin Varior (31:49)

I don't know. Even two years ago where they're like, oh, this is the break glass in case of emergency guy because he's just such a destructive force on defense. They waited until the end of the year and all of a sudden they pounced on the opponent the last game and he was fine, you know, like, it still hasn't paid the dividends as much as they'd like. In terms of, like, how he fits into the Restless. He's still a great defensive player, but ultimately I just don't think he's as much of a, like, leveling up sort of player as perhaps we all projected him to be.

Rob Mahoney (32:18)

I mean, I think he, for this team, is a five. And it's just gotten got into that space where, like, there's no other way to play him. And so then you got to chunk up one way or the other. And so, like, that is the only slot that they can really get by because when they try to play him at the 4, it just, like, is not a tenable thing.

Justin Varior (32:35)

Well, the one thing that jumped out to me last night was, like, the Hawks with Porzingis being at the five versus Wendell Carter being at the five for the Magic, and now Porzingis is like, probably a generational stretch five at this point. The injury concerns are what they are, but, like, look what he did to the Celtics. And I often find myself wondering. It's not about the moves that the Magic will do. It's actually maybe the ones that they didn't do where it's like, you paid the price to get Bane, but you didn't go even a step further. Further, for instance, and pay to get Porzingis in there and get a true stretch five in order to unlock that and do what the Celtics did, frankly, by not only going out and getting Drew, but going a step further and getting Porzingis. Like, they made sure that, like, that entire starting five was just so bulletproof that it didn't really matter what happened off the bench. At a certain point, I almost wonder, like, did the Magic just not do the. The last thing in order to completely unlock them? Because right now, like, we could talk about, like, ways to deploy certain players. Maybe they go small, maybe do that. But, like, I think they would have been fine if they just had someone who was actually spacing out there.

Rob Mahoney (33:41)

But isn't Desmond Bain supposed to do that?

Justin Varior (33:44)

That's one of them.

Kyle Mann (33:45)

Yeah.

Justin Varior (33:45)

You know, I think when you're punting on two spots, especially when Suggs isn't out there, it looks pretty. Pretty gunky.

Rob Mahoney (33:53)

I think that's where it's getting a little complicated for the Magic, because, like, Tristan da Silva has looked pretty solid to Kyle's point Window Carter isn't a pick and pop option. And like, yes, maybe in the landscape of NBA centers might leave you a little cold, but is solid and is actually hitting his spot up threes this season in a way that should theoretically help. You have Bain, who even if he's not hitting, is at least one of the better reputation shooters in the league. Right. Someone that actually should move a defense and defenders should be responding to his movement. It's like all this stuff is kind of working in a way where it should unlock something and yet it just doesn't. And I think some of it is just the difference between. Even when the Magic are hitting, teams don't treat them like they're hitting. They still treat Paolo and Franz getting to the rim as the primary threat. They need to stop. And the Magic don't have a way to get around that easily enough.

Kyle Mann (34:43)

And you're right. I. You said the spot up stat. I was like, no way. 47.1.

Rob Mahoney (34:48)

He's hitting like they're going.

Kyle Mann (34:50)

Taking 17 of them. I mean, yeah, it's. Figure out how to do that. It's. It makes you wonder. I mean. Well, I mean, I, I guess it goes back to the advantage conversion thing. It's just like they're getting it into the spots, but just not finding the guys that can hit them. The Bane and. And Carter.

Justin Varior (35:04)

So yeah, why can't Paulo play center? Like, are there not small ball lineups? Especially if the defense isn't as fearsome as it was in years past where you just try it. Where we say, like, hey, de Silva's playing well, let's put him at center. See if we could at least create an offensive advantage. Like, how much. Rob, do you think this is like a Mosley question about perhaps not just being not spicy enough, but like reaching for the salt and getting any sort of difference in there in order to switch things up a little bit.

Rob Mahoney (35:32)

I think it would be a more enticing proposition if they had a four who was like a. A good swoop in rim protector who could like, you know, the theoretical version of Jonathan Isaac, if that made sense to play Isaac and Paolo that much together. But it doesn't for the, like, you negate the offensive advantage by doing that. The problem with Paolo is he can be a little spacey defensively where he's just like not rotating in a timely enough manner and he's not a presence protecting the basket despite his size. So it's like, yes, you are creating a potentially massive advantage on offense and especially if you can get out running and in transition and like outpace opposing centers. That's a huge deal that I think could break open some games for the Magic. But I think you're Going to be giving up a lot, going to the rim. Whether you play to Silva at the 4 or Franz at the 4. Like, they. They're just missing that guy. Like, if there was. If there was one person in that spot, even if it was like a Chris Boucher type, they could all of a sudden kind of make this thing make sense a little bit to play a little smaller, they would have some options. But they don't. And so then they end up. It's like it's Wendell or it's Go Go Batadze or honestly, the answer is kind of Mo Wagner who's out like that. That's an energy big who can. Who can hit some shots and stretch the floor and also be a presence offensively. Like, they are really missing him in a bad way. But that's kind of the gap in their roster right now is that guy who's big enough to play in those spots and can also shoot the.

Kyle Mann (36:50)

Yeah. Disruptor. And it's, It's. We've seen the end point with the Isaac experiment, even when it's going well, which is, you know, they get into a playoff series and teams just are sagging all the way in the gap because he can't make a three. So it's like, maybe that'll change. Maybe you have some faith in that. But yeah, there's just so many caveats that are making this more difficult.

Justin Varior (37:10)

Here's my broader question here about Paulo and just the way that centers are being reared at this point. Have we gone too far where we're almost too open to treating center type bodies almost as. As guards fully? Like, I don't think we need to go back to the John Caliperi era, Kyle, where it's like, you got to learn how to play in the post before you even shoot at three. Like, there was a very big backlash to what happened Perry era. Well, wasn't the whole thing where he.

Kyle Mann (37:37)

Oh, you're thinking of, yeah, center.

Justin Varior (37:39)

Cat be a center first before he like really tapped into anything else. Cat ultimately just went into the NBA and started shooting threes and everyone's like, why wasn't he doing that before? Like, the openness to new ideas and how we like, approach, like skill with Biggs is ultimately a good thing. Oftentimes when I'm watching Paulo, I think, like, did we go too far to where we didn't even like, consider anything with this guy as a big. And I almost feel like it has put him at a disadvantage to where you've been talking about this a lot, where like I like him as a screener. Like, it seems like it unlocks a lot of his best attributes. And why doesn't he just do that more often?

Kyle Mann (38:17)

Yeah, well, the screener thing, I remember, you know, obviously I ran about it earlier in the season, but the more I'm watching it, I'm just.

Justin Varior (38:23)

It's.

Kyle Mann (38:23)

He's just not super invested in it. You know, it's like you watch the idea of just like screening in and of itself. You're like that there are so many levels of effectiveness to it. And like I was saying, if you watch somebody like, Chet is a much skinnier player than Paolo, but a far superior screener, and it's just kind of like keeping your foot in both, keeping your citizenship in. In both. In both countries is something that takes a lot of effort. And I, I feel like you mentioned the Kobe thing with Paolo. It's like Paolo literally grew up a Lakers Kobe fan and like, he likes to play that way in the slot. The rip throughs, the, you know, he's. That's just the way he does it. And I, I feel like not as much of that big guy personality is in his game anymore because, I don't know, the. The broader sort of like, big guys handling it thing is. Is interesting because you just don't see a lot of teams built this way where usually it's like the concept of one guy at the middle of your offense that just gives crazy rim pressure and then you have shooting around it. But that's what I was saying. That's what I was alluding to when we started. Like, I just can't really think of many teams that are built the way this one is because the honest experiment was unique because they were just like, okay, incendiary, you know, generational rim pressure, and then we're just going to try to put shooting around it. But he didn't have another guy that was like, roughly his size that was like. Unless I'm like, forgetting who. Who else. They traded all those guys away from, like, the early part of the Milwaukee experiment, right?

Rob Mahoney (39:49)

Yeah. Like, that is what makes it a little awkward for Orlando. And I think what makes the, like, can't Paolo just screen more situation, like, a little more complicated? Even though I totally agree with the premise of it is screen for whom, right? Is it like, are we just going to run 40 Desmond Bain pick and rolls a game one way or another with Paolo? Like, should that be the offense? And if so, why do you have Franz Vogner on the team? You know, it's like, like, you get into some weird, like, team building questions pretty quickly if you want to structure your whole offense around that. And I also want to give Paolo credit because, like, all of these things are true and we want to see a certain direction to his game. He's shooting more of his shots at the rim or within, like, close to the basket than ever before in his career. He's taking fewer long twos than ever before in his career. Like, you're seeing the effort to be this kind of player. It's just really hard to be a pick and roll big rolling to the rim where there's no space to roll. And it's. It's incredible when you see it happen, when you see it click. Because Paolo, the way the guard skills do pay off is he can read the floor pretty effectively, especially on the move, like, as a connector big. The, like, tic tac, toe stuff. Desmond Bain hitting the Paolo on the roll, throwing the lob to Wendell Carter from the dunker spot. Like, that's beautiful basketball that Paolo is a hundred percent capable of. You need space to do it. Like, you need the actual respect of the defense to be able to operate that way. And I think the biggest gap is not, like, Paulo's inability or unwillingness to be a screener. It's how do you clear enough space for him to do it even more consistently? Because he's trying to do it.

Justin Varior (41:20)

Yeah. And that's why I go back to the Christoph's point where it's like, if, you know you needed this space, if it was so crucial to everything that you're going to unlock with your best player, why didn't you go all the way in in order to do it? If Bane ends up being a half measure, that'll be ultimately disappointing because at this point, something needs to change. It could be the approach, could be the lineup configuration, it could be whatever it is. But I am very worried that they'll be able to hit their ceiling where they are right now.

Rob Mahoney (41:44)

It's hard to believe in this version of the magic right now. You see them on paper and you. You like the composite pieces. We know the history of who they've been defensively, even though they haven't been it lately. And especially if they're just going to, like, bleed points in transition, like this not getting back and all this kind of flows into itself where they're so weird on offense and they're running all this action on the perimeter in a way that disrupts their floor balance and then makes it hard for them to get back defensively to keep up with some of these faster teams. Sometimes it's just teams see teams just like run and run and run against them. That can't be the case. Like, they have to shut down the easy stuff in transition. They have to be an offensive rebounding team. There's certain things that by their build, they kind of have to be in order to keep their offense solvent and to keep their defense successful. And all of those requirements right now, I think are just like stringing them out in too many different directions.

Kyle Mann (42:36)

And it's taxing on your morale too. Whenever you're having frustrating possession after frustrating possession and it's like, oh, well, we can make up for this if we just sprint back to stop this really, you know, fast team from scoring in transition, that just wears you down. And I mean, it, it. I, I think that's definitely a, a part of it.

Rob Mahoney (42:53)

Kyle, do you think that frustration came out as Desmond. Desmond Bain suplexed on Yeka Kongu with one arm and then whipped the ball at him with the other arm in one fell swoop?

Kyle Mann (43:03)

Speaking of T1000 and the Innovators, man, I don't, I don't think I'd ever seen that one before. He did, like, it was, it was opportunistic. Just kind of floating in front of his face. When he whipped him to the ground, he just spiked it on his head. That was, that was the most lively point of the night, I thought, other than the Da Silva back cut.

Justin Varior (43:21)

Yeah. I don't think I've ever seen a flagrant 2 like go to the replay situation result in a flagrant one plus a technical. The foul itself didn't get you tossed, but you being a dick afterwards definitely did it. Well, on the flip side, the Hawks playing without Trey Young, now, he's going to be out for at least four weeks. Rob, what do you think about, like, the all wing everything Hawks at this point?

Rob Mahoney (43:41)

I mean, they're pretty fun when they're clicking like this. I think there's definitely moments where you can see them miss him and like, miss the impact of that kind of playmaking and they'll get jammed up and the turnovers will start piling up like, that's life without your star. But this is a team that should be built to withstand some of that.

Justin Varior (43:57)

Right?

Rob Mahoney (43:58)

They have enough ball handlers to do some stuff by committee. They should have enough defense to pressure teams. And yet the Hawks are also one of these Eastern Conference teams who just, like, have not been able to put it together in like, a really consistent and cohesive way.

Kyle Mann (44:10)

They just get more easy money than the Magic, too. Which is another thing that, like, the Magic just get no easy money. You just see cutting game that's effective with all these, like, sinewy, fast wings. That's kind of what. I'm not trying to take it back to the Magic, but it's like, it just kind of feels like that's what they're missing for me. It's like they just need. And they try to get that with kcp and it's just like, oh, man. Like this. This situation negated him. But the Hawks, like you said, are just so fast, so lively. And that's a huge difference, I think, between those two teams that can sort of make up some of the absence of Trey in the aggregate.

Rob Mahoney (44:44)

Well, it's also the difference between the good version of the Hawks and the less inspiring version of the Hawks, because you're right. When they're getting the easy money, you see the vision of what this team is supposed to be. But when you see them, especially without Trey, they don't usually, unless they're playing the Orlando Magic, get to the free throw line very much. They don't usually get many offensive rebounds really, at all. And so, like, without all those second chances and, like, bonus opportunities, they can just like, level out a little bit in a way that is uninspiring, to say the least. That makes it really hard to believe in the vision of this team. But then everything clicks into the into place and it feels fine again. So I'm just not sure which version of the Hawks is real or if they're just going to be on this kind of seesaw all season.

Justin Varior (45:24)

Yeah. Where are we on Risha Shay now? A season and a couple games into his career, number one pick, Kyle. I imagine you looked at him pretty hard coming out of the draft. Like, is this going right? I. I can't tell because it's such a bad draft. Like, it keeps getting worse and worse. Even this year, I'm looking up and down the first round and I'm just like, Stefan Castle and, you know, Clingan's fine. You know, it's just. It's such a outlier that we thought it was going to be, and it certainly has been. So, like, are things going well for Rishi?

Kyle Mann (45:56)

Yeah, you're right. I mean, whenever we're, like, comparing the guys against each other, we really. We should be comparing them against. Because every year is different. Every year there's going to. And you have to go through and, like, look at the arcs and Whenever we, we see the number next to a player's name, we're like, well, it's implied that this person should be doing this. And that's just not the case. So with, with, with reason, I mean, I love his energy and his activity. It's like he does a lot of things, you know, decently well. The thing that like, worried me the most about, about him coming in was like, I just don't know that he's going to be a consistent enough catch and shoot guy. But he, he offers a lot of things. I just kind of wonder, is there Runway for him to sort of graduate into a more increased role? Because there are some guys there that, you know, you know, Dyson Daniels is after the same thing. Jalen Johnson is kind of in the same place kind of after the same thing. I don't know, it's. I haven't been like blown away in a way that's, it's. It's landed kind of where I thought it would. Honestly, I always just kind of thought this guy's probably going to be like a quality, high quality role player. At the end of the day, I.

Rob Mahoney (46:58)

Feel like he's missing the level of defense that would anchor him. He's like, good enough and he's a good, like, as you're saying, Kyle, like, good enough ball mover, good enough off the dribble, like, has a lot to recommend in his game, but he also has those stretches where he'll just be invisible for six straight minutes because he doesn't have a way to like, impact it. And it's. It. You know, he's part of the tapestry of what the Hawks are doing, but he's not the part that your eye is ever really drawn to. And it's like if he were playing standout Dyson Daniels level defense, it's like, okay, now we're creating something. There's something like generative here that's really moving the Hawks in a direction. But the part of the reason she experience that I think makes it easy to overlook him is what makes him stand out in a bad way as a, as a, you know, such a high pick with so much like banking on him. It's like you can't be that guy in that spot. Like, they, they do need a little more from you and a little more just like, presence, to be honest.

Justin Varior (47:53)

Yeah, every team needs wings, especially someone is long and has the shooting potential that he has. But then like, you know, he's just, he's just another wing out there. And that seems pretty interchangeable. Like, I almost wonder if you put him into Keel in a draft, like right now, like, who would you pick? It's kind of like probably pick Nikhil just considering the track record. But I don't know, he seems like kind of of that caliber, which is weird for a number one pick, but it's kind of where we are.

Rob Mahoney (48:17)

Not even Nikhil. Like, there's games where it's like, is Riza Shay offering dramatically more to the Hawks than V. Cri is for this game? And the answer to that is like, the answer to that often enough is like they're kind of doing the same things. And that is role that circumstances all this stuff. But you got to do a little more than that.

Justin Varior (48:36)

I think you're going Creechy number one overall.

Rob Mahoney (48:40)

Look, that is not what I said. Do not quote me as saying V. Creechy should have been the number one overall pick.

Kyle Mann (48:46)

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Justin Varior (49:49)

Cmno.com all right, well, I want to kind of like just do a quick survey of the east because it feels like we need a little bit of a gut check based on where these teams are. As we stand right now on November 5th, is there a team you guys just feel like very good about or perhaps like you were in the mix kind of in the middle about, but like, oh, they. They've overperformed at this point. Like, where are you feeling strongly Rob as we sit here today?

Rob Mahoney (50:14)

I am not.

Justin Varior (50:16)

Okay, great. So who are you feeling okay about?

Rob Mahoney (50:19)

Yeah, I mean, I'm looking across the landscape and I think you're either seeing younger teams we were hoping would take take a leap and are just kind of more or less in the same place. You're seeing teams that were already quite good that have shaken something up and it hasn't yet, like fully come to fruition. And you're seeing some, a lot of injured teams, to be fair, too. Like the, the Cavaliers might be like the team we would be talking about in this spot, whether they were just another regular season buzz saw like they were last year, or they were like adding all this stuff and like, you know, diversifying what they do. But they've just been so hurt that it's impossible to evaluate their offense, which has just like, not been good and, and really suffered the repercussions of not just having injuries, but it's like they're missing this Garden, that they're missing Darius Garland, who is supposed to play tonight, we should say, finally return, returning to the lineup, which will be huge, but also Max Druce and also Sam Merrill tonight. And so it's like the compounding effects of all that stuff I think has really taken the toll on the Cavs. But how do you look across the east and aside from the mighty, mighty Bulls, think like, oh, here is the standout team that has really put something together here. I. I just don't see the candidate for that.

Kyle Mann (51:22)

I was talking about the tears when we were texting and I went there. I had to do this just for myself. I think it goes from void of form. Brooklyn Nets completely. There did just. There's. What. What is that? There's the.

Rob Mahoney (51:33)

I saw that James was shooting like 47% from three against the Brooklyn Nets or something. Some like truly ungodly percent. It's 100%. It's all going to come back down to.

Kyle Mann (51:44)

I also love the Brooklyn fan that hit me up and was just like, what are you talking about? So Oklahoma City's like, bench would absolutely kick our ass. That was pretty funny. Love it when teams either don't say anything because they know your criticism's right, or they're just like, you didn't go far enough. There's the void of form, there's the gestation teams. They're headed towards being something at Charlotte and Washington. There's the flailing teams because they've had a lot of bad luck. Boston, Indiana. And then there's the teams that are the sum. They're greater than the sum of their parts. Miami and Toronto. I think Toronto is headed that way. Then there's the single silo teams that are sort of punching above their weight because they have one mode of creating things.

Justin Varior (52:20)

What?

Kyle Mann (52:21)

What?

Justin Varior (52:21)

How many cheers do you have here, buddy?

Kyle Mann (52:24)

Lots of tears. Oh, it's about 40 more minutes. Just sit tight. No, there's the single silo teams who have, like, who have one mode of creating offense that works. But I think in a playoff setting, it's going to get stressed. You got Detroit with Cade, Milwaukee with Yana, Chicago with Giddy, Atlanta with Trey when he gets back. And then the con conflicted. It's not quite working wise and not working. Orlando, and then the Philly maxi and Bead thing that's going on. And then there's the teams that should be good, that we want to believe in them. Like you were talking about when you're looking over the landscape of the apocalyptic hellscape of that. Something like out of. Out of Terminator 2 with Cleveland. And my thing is like New York, I was like, I think this comes down to a reading the tea leaves, listening to Mike Brown talk after these games, reading the Knicks fans comments. I'm not getting any kind of inspiration. Like, Knicks fans don't feel overly confident. It's just like, will that buy in work? Because this is a team that's generating open shots. It's like, are they buying into like a. That's my answer. The Knicks roundabout way. It's like, is the 0.5 kind of mentality going to be bought in for them? I lean towards cautiously optimistic because I think that when I watch them produce the open shots, I'm like, they're figuring out 0.5 is more than just moving. It's like, you got to figure out where it needs to move. Just moving for moving sake. I think people say that a lot of times they're like, move the ball. It's like, well, yeah, there's purpose to where it moves and when and why. And I think they're kind of figuring that out. And I do believe. Do I think they're going to contend? No, but I do think that they're, you know, I don't know. Do you all agree with that? It. To me, it just kind of comes down to a bet on that because I don't think Garland's ever gonna be healthy. I just, I just, I'm so skeptical about that.

Justin Varior (54:04)

Yeah. I mean, with the Cavs, I'm probably more disappointed than them, than the Knicks because the Knicks at least have the excuse that they're a work in Progress that they're changing fundamentally who they are on offense. In addition to some of the injury concerns that have popped up, Mitchell, Robinson, Josh Hart is like, suggesting that is his hand thing is like a nerve thing.

Rob Mahoney (54:21)

Yeah, that didn't sound good.

Justin Varior (54:23)

Mike Brown is, like, just not playing Yabu Celli. The biggest concern of them all, he's like, oh, I can only find five minutes. Yeah, right. I can find 25 minutes, buddy. We got to get him up to.

Kyle Mann (54:33)

Seven so we can call him Seven Minute Yabs. That's what I'm wanting. That's what I'm hoping for.

Justin Varior (54:40)

Thank you. The Cavs, on the other hand, they have a very, like, dynastic warriors thing where it's like, oh, my God, our ninth man is in a Hall of Famer who might make the All Star team. We've completely are out of sorts. It's like you're paying the second apron specifically to build the type of depth to pace you through this sort of situation. You should be a little bit better. Like, Evan Mobley is probably the prince who was promised, and it's just like, oh, can he carry you for a game when Donovan Mitchell is on the floor? Or even if he's not, it's just like, there's so much there. I'm kind of out of excuses. And it's compounded by the fact that, like, all the playoff issues are just, like, weighing on this team, where it's like, even if they were being successful right now, I'd be like, it doesn't matter. Let's see it in the playoffs.

Rob Mahoney (55:21)

Sure. I do think the Cav situation.

Justin Varior (55:23)

Yeah.

Rob Mahoney (55:24)

Like, Mobley, you would love if he could take a little bit more of the reins on those kinds of nights. Because as it stands, if Donovan Mitchell is out there, there's just so much pressure on him to create. The defense has been good and good enough. It's just they have to find some kind of work around it. You would think, to Kyle's larger point about Darius Garland, that this team would understand how to play and function without Darius Garland, that if anyone has experience doing it, it would be the Cavs. And yet here they are kind of running into the same walls they always do, just even harder to even less result.

Kyle Mann (55:55)

You know, I was going to say a quick thing here. If I had a turf toe, I don't know if you guys have ever had this. I'll work out in my basement sometimes, and it's carpeted, and one time I dragged my toe and, like, sprained it. That's a motherfucker I don't know if you ever had that.

Justin Varior (56:08)

Awful.

Kyle Mann (56:08)

The Sixers are not who I would want to see if I had a gimpy toe. I'm just saying that this could be really interesting, those two styles coming together. I'm. I'm excited to watch that game. Just, I hope Garland's up for the challenge of how fast that that team's going to be moving.

Justin Varior (56:22)

Well, should we talk about the Sixers? Bulls tilt last night? The clash for the top of the East.

Rob Mahoney (56:27)

Wow.

Justin Varior (56:28)

I think the Six. I think the Sixers kind of showed who they are to a certain extent, where blistering offense, it's just. They're going to put up a shit ton of points. But then you have Embiid just like slowly dragging the leg behind him. I think he was like 1 for 11 in the second half. Just seems like he's putting up every time a shot, every time he gets the ball, and it's always a jumper. Like, I saw him go into the post. I was like, oh, the beats. Crossing into the threshold of.

Kyle Mann (56:53)

He's not hitting the first pointer, though. He's not hitting first. If he goes down there, Vuch was hitting him first. I was like, what is going on here? Like, the deference that's going on on the Sixers is so interesting. Like, yeah, sorry.

Justin Varior (57:04)

And you know, and you know it's going to be a fallaway jumper as soon as, like, he starts going down there. It's just like, it's just very predictable. And I, I just wonder long term, like, how much that, like, even the good that he's giving him, even in a first half is going to completely just give it back on the defensive side. And just like him not being who he was.

Rob Mahoney (57:24)

I've seen a lot of Joel Embiid defense out there. A lot of, like, box score watching of, oh, he put up 20. And therefore he must have had a good game. It's not really the case right now. I'm not saying he has no impact. I'm not saying he's not valuable in his way. Like, they need some counterbalance scoring. They do need what he's even able to provide in this form. But all those limitations and the caveats and the offsetting things you just talked about, jv, like, those are painful for the Sixers. Like an immobile player who isn't exerting his will on the game, but is just kind of participating in it and knocking down some jumpers. That's not the MVP. Joel Embiid. Like, I don't care how many 20 point games he has. Like, he's not efficient right now, he's not a defensive force right now and he's not a go to offensive player right now, despite the fact that the Sixers do kind of bend in that direction sometimes when he's on the floor. And so what are you left with? It's like the shadow and the ghost of a player who used to be. And I hope he can get back into form. I hope we see the best version of Joel Embiid again. But this version is hard to play with and work around and I think it's, it is a testament to the Sixers that they have been as successful as they've been even while dealing with all those considerations.

Justin Varior (58:30)

You just don't go into Chicago anymore, Kyle, and just, you know, you can't just coast over, over a second half because when Giddy gets clicking, that ball starts to ping you, my friend.

Kyle Mann (58:43)

Yeah, I mean, yeah, you don't waltz into, yeah. You don't waltz in there and expect to, to walk out with a win. That, that game, man, I mean Giddy was the, was the one that puts them into the, into the single silo thing. It's like this, this team to me reminds me a little bit of that. I guess it was the 21 Knicks team that was very feel good that you know, granted Giddy's a way, way better process. Like he can sustain and create better looks than, than that Randall duct tape together experience. I mean I, I do wonder once a team has like a week to prepare for the Bulls, like what it's going to look like. But for now it's very fun. I mean that, that left handed Rob pointed it out that the hammer action there that they ran in that game that Vuch made that shot, it wasn't the prettiest thing the way they climbed back into that game, but they, you know, it's a fun time for Bulls fans. I'm, I, I sign off on all the joy that they're, they're wanting to have. I'm, I'm, I'm good with it long term.

Rob Mahoney (59:36)

What's.

Kyle Mann (59:37)

What, what's the ceiling of it? I don't know. Yes, but that was a beautiful play to end that game and you could just kind of feel it coming because the Sixers just came apart at the end of that.

Rob Mahoney (59:44)

It is not a time to ask about the ceiling, Kyle. Like the spirit is moving through them and we just enjoyed the ride while it lasts and like they're genuinely fun to watch and really successful and this is the best basketball that Josh Giddey has ever played. Like, I think you are seeing a bit of a shift in his game, specifically in his work off the dribble and turning the corner on guys. And just, like, the level of defensive rotation he's able to command right now looks and feels very, very different from the Josh Giddey we've seen in past seasons.

Justin Varior (60:12)

What? How long will Giddy have to play well before you apologize to him or apologize to me? Apologize to me specifically. Just like, oh, every time he does something well, it's like, oh, he didn't play well in the Thunder playoffs.

Rob Mahoney (60:27)

It's just like, okay, that is. I think you're confusing me with somebody else. My Josh Giddy stance is the same as it's ever been, which is like, this is a good, productive player and a good passer who comes with a lot of considerations you have to work around. And he's kind of chiseling away at those. So I think the answer is, like, if he keeps chiseling away, then all of a sudden he's just like a fricking All Star. Right? If he's piling up triple doubles every night and the Bulls keep winning, at a certain point, that becomes undeniable.

Justin Varior (60:53)

I've started to see people question whether or not he was the bigger Thunder mistake in comparison to the James Harden trade.

Rob Mahoney (61:00)

Wow.

Justin Varior (61:00)

Like, there's a whole, like, split face sort of situation where Harden's on one side.

Rob Mahoney (61:06)

But by people, you mean your burner.

Justin Varior (61:08)

Yeah, just. Just me working. Working the Twitter.

Kyle Mann (61:11)

I've heard people say Justin said, put it to a slideshow with my favorite mistake by Sheryl Crowe. Great song. Yeah. He's just still a baby, too. I mean, that's the thing. Just the Runway, that trade. I mean, where does that rank among the we both won trades of all time? Like, it was just like, we got too many guys. You guys need a guy. We need that specific type of guy. It just. Just really worked out for both parties, but.

Justin Varior (61:34)

It did.

Kyle Mann (61:34)

Yeah. He's got a lot of upside still very young.

Justin Varior (61:36)

We just keep saying the same thing about the Bulls in a lot of these teams, where it's just like, ah, man, they just keep beating up on all these bad teams. At a certain point, like, this is just going to amount. And I do wonder if the Bulls, especially when you look at the rest of the east and you look at even the good teams that we have, which I think, like, we were expecting, like, two to three teams, being at the top there being the. The Cavs and Knicks and maybe the Magic, like, but even they are like closer to the bottom in terms of the Magic than the top. Like at a certain point, just having an identity in an Eastern Conference that's this mushy I think is just going to pay dividends to the point where it's like, would I expect the Bulls to be in the top six by the end of the year? Probably not. But would it shock me at this point?

Kyle Mann (62:17)

No.

Justin Varior (62:17)

If only because they have a model that works and just something that works okay. Is actually putting you light years ahead of practically everyone in the conference.

Rob Mahoney (62:27)

Yeah. If you're in the west, you are just like having to, having to fight your way through every spot in the standings, peeling off contenders left and right just to get like any foothold whatsoever. In the east, if you remotely have your shit together, you're going to be the number three seed. So like, there's a lot to go with here. They're going to have a lot of games against that level of competition. Justin, we're just like you're going to have three or four games against the Nets and the Pacers, and if you're even, even like slightly healthy and you know how you play and you work together, we might just like look up and the Miami Heat are still in like the number four spot even at the end of the season, even, even after they've cooled off, even after they've come back to earth, even after the Knicks have risen. These teams just might be good enough to, to win and will out on competence alone.

Justin Varior (63:11)

Yeah.

Kyle Mann (63:11)

How many teams in the west have an identity and, and are still not going to do it? Like, okay, Thunder, obviously, I would say spurs have an identity. Lakers, they have an identity. It's flawed, but they have an identity. The Nuggets, obviously. The Rockets, the Warriors, the Timberwolves, that's seven teams I've named that.

Justin Varior (63:28)

Trailblazers.

Rob Mahoney (63:28)

I think the Trailblazers do have a Trailblazer.

Justin Varior (63:31)

Kyle.

Kyle Mann (63:31)

They have and the Trailblazers, for God's sake. And it's, I just think about in the east, we're like, can someone just realize who they are? I don't know. I just feel like we're just in front. It's, it's, it's a funny, it's a funny slog. And the disparity is, I mean, we've had disparity between the two conferences for a long time, but like I said, just watching them side by side on a one night basis is just very jarring.

Justin Varior (63:54)

Well, we should talk about the Number three team in the east, like with a bullet right now, which I think kind of speaks to this, which is the Detroit Pistons, who are at 5 and 2. I wouldn't say they've covered themselves in glory, but at the very least, this is a team I think, that knows who it is. And defensively they're bringing the wood right now. They're fifth in defense. And I feel like Asar Thompson has like just completely set a record for starting ship for 36 already this year because every game I look up and he's like in a fight with somebody, which is great to see, but like that's who they are. And to that point, like they're also leading the league by far in personal fouls. And like you look at all of their, like the teams around them, it's all just bad teams that are doing it because they don't know how to play defense. This is a tough, rugged team that has carried over whatever just like swagger that they had from last season into this season. And I think that's paying off offensively. Yeah, well, you know, we'll see pretty middling thus far. I guess the hope you would have there, Rob, is just, you know, Ivy's there waiting the wings. Hopefully he'll be able to come back in the next couple weeks. Marcus Sasser, even just like having another point guard off the bench I think would seriously, because I think they're, they're not taking a lot of threes yet again and so that's a concern. But at the very least they have like, they have the defensive component. They could just be okay offensively. I think that's going to pay off to a certain extent.

Rob Mahoney (65:13)

Yeah, I mean they, they look really stifling on defense and they're one of these teams where you can feel when they turn the pressure up and some of it is in these like bench lineups where you have a SAR out there and Ron Holland out there, even like Javante Green, who offensively, I don't love the fit, but like he can be a pressure defender and really pesky too. And you can see them just like really tightening the screws on teams that are not ready for it. That's going to win you a lot of games in the regular season for sure. Their defense is completely playoff worthy. I'm not concerned about it. Kyle mentioned them earlier though in one of his 17 different tiers as one of these single siloed teams. And you let you know, you, you do feel the lack of secondary playmaking and Jalen Duran has some of that and Asar Thompson has some of that. It's just not quite at the level where it's going to like break you through the East. And so if we're going to see development from the Pistons over this year, it's in that regard, right? It's, it's, it is the secondary creation. It is a secondary playmaking. Maybe Ivy coming back, he'll just like slot so easily into that role right now. Like Caris levert is back in a slot that I just like do not like for him and I don't think he's played well at all as a result. Like all of the forward momentum we saw from him as a cavalier becoming a different kind of player has just been washed away as he's now. Pound the rock. Caris LeVert, again, that's not what this team needs. And yet it is kind of what this team needs. Like they need someone to do that. Just someone who's better at it than Caris Leverton.

Kyle Mann (66:38)

What do you make of the Duran wrinkle of this? You mentioned him. Like he obviously is nasty, big time SOB shitster as, as they have a lot of those guys. But I, I was noticing, you know, early in his career when he was getting acclimated to the speed of the NBA game and things like that, you noticed him like I'm just seeing a lot more occasions where maybe they're running a handoff, he's catching the ball, just attacking whoever is guarding him in the, in the, in space. And I kind of wonder once they get, I just think once they get that'll be another dividend of getting another secondary playmaker back is you'll have a little bit more space and he'll be able to kind of be choosy in those situations where he can earn some respect and then get off the ball and that'll just be another additional help to them on offense to, you know, because he'll be out there on defense. We know that.

Justin Varior (67:22)

So yes, watching him face up is always funny because it's chaotic.

Kyle Mann (67:27)

It's chaotic.

Rob Mahoney (67:27)

It's a lot.

Kyle Mann (67:28)

It's not pretty. It's not pretty. I'm not going to act like it's pretty.

Justin Varior (67:30)

It's not also like his muscles are like as big as the basketball but at the very least he has that component to his game. And I do think like at times like he's been one of their more effective offensive players just because like he gives the vertical threat and like that's a lot of what is going to unlock what Cade does Best. Right. And so if you look at the numbers, for instance, like, his on off stuff is, like, off the charts just because he's bringing it defensively and he's just doing what he's asked to be doing. He's doing what he's being asked to do offensively, which is effective undeniably.

Rob Mahoney (68:03)

And he and Kate have that, like, really easy synergy where Kate is just constantly locked in on exactly where Jalen Duran is on the court. Their chemistry is great, awesome to watch. Very, like, very hard to stop and negate. It is all the other, like, wild card stuff with him that is compelling and I'm interested in, like, you see him, you'll see him do some, like, Evan Mobley grab and go and transition kind of stuff that's like, okay, he can outrun other centers and kind of slink by them in a way that could be exciting. But they do, like, again, they need someone in this spot. So it's like, I don't mind him trying stuff. I don't mind any of these supporting pistons trying stuff. It can't all be cade all the time. So, like, why not let us start try to create? Why not let Jalen Durant try to create? Even if it gets weird and chaotic, like, this is what we're here for.

Justin Varior (68:49)

I feel like the east is going to be dictated by whether or not Shams can, like, settle on whether Malik Beasley is or is not going to be investigated by the FBI. Because I don't know if you guys have been following this from afar, but, like, I think he was in Detroit or, like, he keeps suggesting, like, there might be a chance he might still be able to get on the roster, but wouldn't you, if you were in.

Rob Mahoney (69:08)

His position, just, like, keep putting it? You know? I've been hearing a lot of good buzz around the water cooler about Justin Barrier getting signed by the Detroit Pistons.

Justin Varior (69:16)

Oddly enough, though, he's like, he kind of is the culture there. Like, he just had that sort of braggadocious thing that I think brought out the best in all those guys and just, like, the audacity, just keep firing it up over and over and over again. Like, that's something that Duncan Robinson, despite the fact that he's, like, hitting shots, like, isn't going to bring. And so I didn't love their off season in order to replace the guys that they'd lost, Schroeder and Beasley and Hardaway. But if they get him back, like, I don't know. I'm starting to feel like this team could be like a, a top three team in the east, like for the full run.

Kyle Mann (69:45)

It just has a nice cumulative effect across the board. Like it would help the Duran thing. Another thing too is that it's, it's impacting Cade too. This is the fewest amount of like because to his credit, people had labeled Cade as like a heavy load, insistent, like I'm only pick and roll type guy. He has a little bit of reload three in his game.

Justin Varior (70:01)

Sure.

Kyle Mann (70:02)

And. And he's not getting to do as much of that, I think because, you know, you add another shooter like that that can shoot off the dribble, I think that's going to benefit Cade. It's going to benefit Duncan Robinson. It's just. Yeah. Whether or not that's Malik Beasley, I don't know. Maybe Sean's can figure that out for us.

Rob Mahoney (70:16)

How about just adding another guy who can shoot, period. Like adding, adding Duncan has. And if you look at kind of the who went in the door and out the door of Detroit's off season, I think it's easy. It was, it was easy to gloss over some of just the volume of three point shooters that they were losing. Right. Because it wasn't just Beasley, But Tim Hardaway, Jr. Fontechio and Dennis Schroeder. Guys who are all like big get them up shooters for better or worse for Detroit last season. And so part of the reason they're just not taking that many threes is they don't have that many guys who actually do take them or want to take them, which then puts like Isaiah Stewart in a weird spot where he's kind of like marginalized to the perimeter on maybe a little too often or too many possessions in a row. You're asking guys to kind of step outside themselves because you don't have the volume of shooters you need. So like Duncan Robinson could, you know, shoot 20 threes a game and it wouldn't be enough in some ways because you just need more guys on the floor who are presenting that threat.

Justin Varior (71:07)

Who do you guys think will finish at the top of the East? Not like who will win the east, but ultimately in the regular season standings, who will be number one with the best record?

Rob Mahoney (71:16)

I think it'll be Cleveland still.

Justin Varior (71:19)

Yeah. Okay.

Rob Mahoney (71:20)

I think the bar is high. We like again, when they are mostly healthy, we know exactly what they can do from a regular season standpoint. Unless things that have just really gone sour. And I don't necessarily get that impression just yet. I still think they're going to be the regular Season leader for the East.

Kyle Mann (71:36)

Yeah, I think most likely. And I think the Lonzo thing is going to make a lot more sense too. Once they get everybody back. We're going to see his superlatives pop a lot. I don't know. Is there some wild outcome where. No, there's not. Yeah. I was just like looking at the Bucks and like I was the single silo thing. I was like looking at the Bucks free throw distribution. It's like a lot of Giannis, no one else. So that that poor man did. You'll see him chirping at the official. The like sarcastic Giannis chirping last night was like really cracking me up.

Rob Mahoney (72:11)

This is a horrendous whistle. Like I don't know what Giannis has done to the officials of the NBA. I think.

Justin Varior (72:16)

I think he's a great whistle.

Rob Mahoney (72:18)

I think getting raked last night, that's the thing. Like he initiates a lot of contact, but he gets a lot back at all points on the court in a way that I don't really think is explicable.

Justin Varior (72:30)

I think he is though, to your point, like playing it up as a bit now. Like he got a little, little like hot from all the Jalen Brown. Like, well, give me the hand but then put it over my head sort of thing. Like he's now going into full like comedic routine on some of these things.

Rob Mahoney (72:45)

Well, did you see he's now a Kohl's sponsor. He's showing up in commercials.

Kyle Mann (72:49)

Giannis is the most Kohl's athlete I've ever.

Rob Mahoney (72:51)

I mean there's no, there's no doubt.

Kyle Mann (72:53)

It's so funny. No, Giannis, like he did like a pelvic thrust after he dunked and hit the ball with his garage. I'd never seen somebody do that. Yeah, granted, I probably.

Justin Varior (73:03)

I think.

Kyle Mann (73:03)

But yeah, he's a Coles athlete for sure.

Justin Varior (73:05)

I agree. I agree with you guys. Cavs or maybe Knicks still probably the projection up there if there's anyone to crash the party. I would probably put Detroit up there. Just because they have guys coming in, in. In a regular season where it's just about like stacking wins. Like they seem to be the most built for that sort of thing.

Kyle Mann (73:22)

But the Miami thing is novel is what we're saying. We think that's novel. Like that's not going to continue.

Rob Mahoney (73:27)

I mean we saw them as like a hypothetical play in team and they might end up as the fifth or sixth or like in that range. Like that's a good outcome for them. I don't think. I don't think that's saying it's novel. Just to say that when you don't have a go to Star, it does have its repercussions, even in the regular season.

Justin Varior (73:42)

Yeah, I think we figured out overall, though, that the east is a mess and barely watchable some nights.

Rob Mahoney (73:47)

But I do think it's going to get better. I'm holding out hope. So many of these teams we're talking about are still early enough in their process that you'll see things like, you know, the Knicks will have a game where they get like 45 points from their bench, and it's like, okay, there was something happening here that could be tangible.

Justin Varior (74:03)

Right.

Rob Mahoney (74:04)

That could be something to build from. You'll see. Kat, who, if we're going to say something about those, like, kind of read and react offenses, they're particularly hard on bigs, they're particularly difficult to, like, find your place in that sort of flow. It's just going to look better in February than it does now. And so if the Cavs get healthier and the Knicks get a better, like, better understanding of how they're supposed to play and some of these other teams even just, like, level out, even, even slightly, then all of a sudden maybe the east is competent. It's just, you know, competent doesn't mean shit relative to the Western Conference where if we transported the Trailblazers to, I don't know, like, Charleston, are they the three, the third or fourth seed in this conference?

Justin Varior (74:41)

Wait, do we get a jar for Rob? Because now that's like the third mention of the Blazers.

Rob Mahoney (74:46)

Now I'm just taunting you. I'm just showing you that I can do it, but you can't.

Kyle Mann (74:50)

Blazers Prince Isaiah, what's the ruling there?

Justin Varior (74:53)

Oh, come on. That's right.

Rob Mahoney (74:56)

I'll put the money in. But it's your money. I'm taking it out of your wallet.

Justin Varior (74:59)

All right, that's fine. All right. Why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back Sunday night, Monday morning. We'll talk to you then. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18/ plus and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelp linema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.