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Is OKC Inevitable? Plus, Swing Factors for Top Contenders and Take Forgiveness Day. | Group Chat
01:07:47
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- [00:01]
David Shoemaker
Hey there Humanoids. It's the Masked Man. David Shoemaker It's a new era in.
- [00:05]
Kaz
Professional wrestling and that means a new.
- [00:07]
David Shoemaker
Era here at the Ringer Wrestling Show.
- [00:09]
Kaz
Kaz here every Monday and Thursday.
- [00:11]
Justin Varier
Hang out with me and my guy.
- [00:12]
Kaz
Shoes on the Masked man show and Ben Cruz here. Come kick it with me, Cal and Brian on Tuesdays for Ringer Wrestling Worldwide where we hit on the most interesting headlines and even react to some of Masked Man's and even your hottest takes.
- [00:26]
David Shoemaker
Don't tap out. Tap in to the Ringer Wrestling show.
- [00:29]
Kaz
Feed now on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast worldwide. This episode is brought to you by patron 100% additive free tequila. When it comes to ingredients, Patron doesn't need to play games. That's why their tequila is crafted with 100% Weber Blue Agave water and thyme. No sweeteners, no added extracts, no secrets, just 100% additive free tequila. Visit patron tequila.com to learn more. The perfect way to enjoy Patron is responsibly Copyright 2025, imported by the Patron Spirits Company Coral Gables, Florida. Tequila 40% alcohol by volume. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Basketball fans know that a great assist can change the game. And there's no greater assist than one from State Farm. State Farm is here to help you navigate the right coverage for your home car and more. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. State Farm, Bloomington, Illinois. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varier and joining me Big Wise and back from Boy Meets World with Minkus and talking to all his friends, Rob Mahoney. How was it?
- [02:00]
David Shoemaker
First of all would do a Boy Meets World rewatch pod, video content, whatever we want. Just a lot of wholesome life lessons to be learned.
- [02:08]
Kaz
I think I've been singing the Boy Meets World theme song in my head practically ever since that podcast. What a time. The kid kids don't know about real drama is what I would say.
- [02:19]
David Shoemaker
The problem is they do know because remember they tried to reboot it as Girl Meets World where Cory and Topanga, I think were the parents and it was about their daughter. I didn't see it. Didn't seem like it went well.
- [02:30]
Kaz
Yeah, but was your time away from us? Restful. We had a very lively podcast without you.
- [02:37]
David Shoemaker
Yeah, I had a nice time. What happened while I was gone? What did you guys get up to?
- [02:41]
Kaz
Wise had some very specific opinions.
- [02:44]
Justin Varier
What did we get up to? I've already forgotten, to be honest.
- [02:48]
Kaz
Like the White American draft.
- [02:50]
Justin Varier
Oh, white American draft. Yeah.
- [02:51]
David Shoemaker
I did see a very spirited rallying cry from. Was stirring the white Americans and stirring their inner pride and to find it within themselves to meet their European counterparts on the. On the level playing field that is the NBA court.
- [03:07]
Kaz
I was.
- [03:07]
David Shoemaker
I was roused. Was. I got to say, I was. I was called to action.
- [03:11]
Justin Varier
Listen, in the past few years, there's been so much chatter about the young white American male and his disaffected nature and his alienation. I'm just here as sort of like a warm hug. Like it's going to be okay. Like I said before, there's greatness within you, young white man.
- [03:30]
Kaz
I personally was inspired as well. So we appreciate your activism on this show.
- [03:36]
Justin Varier
Thank you.
- [03:37]
Kaz
So on today's episode on the back end, we're going to get into take forgiveness days. We're going to do a little mea culpa action on some of our takes from earlier this season. But I think we have to start first and foremost with the potential NBA Finals preview we witnessed last night. Celtics versus the Thunder. Unfortunately, a little bit of, you know, not. We didn't get the full show because a couple guys were out there. First and foremost, it sounds like Kristaps Porzingis might have, like, the fungus illness from the last of us. I don't know what's going on there.
- [04:06]
David Shoemaker
What's going on with him having an unknown virus? Just the phrase unknown virus does not sit well with you.
- [04:11]
Justin Varier
Virus or respiratory illness? What did they say?
- [04:14]
David Shoemaker
I feel like I've seen the word virus.
- [04:16]
Kaz
I've heard virus, which might be technically correct, but it sounds more ominous.
- [04:20]
David Shoemaker
Yes, coronavirus. Well, either way, whatever he's got fungal. Last of us oriented, zombified. That dude just sitting on the bench. I guess it must not be communicable in an easy way. Whatever he's got.
- [04:35]
Justin Varier
He should be quarantining or something.
- [04:38]
David Shoemaker
Just if you're not, if you're sitting at the game because you're sick, you should go home. You should not be attending with your teammates. I think that's a reasonable expectation. But apparently the Celtics doctors know a lot more than we do.
- [04:49]
Justin Varier
Hmm.
- [04:51]
Kaz
Should we be digging the Celtics title chances because Porzingis is an anti masker? Is that what we're going with?
- [04:57]
David Shoemaker
That's not what I'm saying.
- [04:59]
Justin Varier
This guy.
- [05:00]
David Shoemaker
I'm saying help. Help the team stay healthy. That's what I'm advocating for. Okay.
- [05:04]
Kaz
But we got a pretty good show nonetheless. This one went down to the wire. Rob, what was your Takeaway from, from.
- [05:11]
David Shoemaker
This one, Chet looks ready to go, and I think ready to go in exactly the way they need. No Jalen Williams for this game, which is critical in any kind of high leverage matchup for the Thunder because we, I think all of us on this podcast want to see what he can do for them against elite defenses, what kind of secondary creation he's going to be capable of in a long playoff run and really competitive series without him. I thought Chet stepped right into that kind of role. And most importantly, not just doing the usual Chet stuff, but some intermediate scoring. Right. Like getting into the lane, finding the pocket within the Celtics defense, creating in a way that the Thunder, I think, overall, really, really need for the health of what they're trying to execute. And so between Shay doing his usual act, looking unstoppable offensively, the defense being as formidable as advertised, one of the few that can actually slow the Celtics down for any meaningful amount of time, and Chet delivering in that way, I gotta say, I know a lot of people have the questions about the Thunder. They. They sure look like a championship team to me.
- [06:07]
Justin Varier
Yeah, I thought last night for me, the offense, I still got a lot of questions. As good as Chet looked last night, it's not as if he was driving any of the advantages. Right. It was like him working off of Shay being, you know, a top two or front running MVP candidate. And, and that's important because that's what they're going to need in order to meet whoever comes out of the east in the NBA finals. I was more impressed by their defense in the sense that like the Celtics got up 63 threes, which I don't think is a good game plan against the Celtics to let them get up that many threes. But to me, it's how they got there. And you know, I text you guys, I was like, OKC makes these guys actually have to break a sweat to generate good offense. Like they, they can't just go through the motions, which not most 9 out of 10 NBA teams can't say that.
- [06:56]
David Shoemaker
No.
- [06:56]
Justin Varier
And so the defense is completely legit, I thought, even in the loss and the win against the Nuggets. Previously, this weekend, this past weekend, I felt like the Hartenstein heft and like it's just a difference. They're just not as paper thin. It's not like paper mache their interior defense anymore. We know what they do on the perimeter in terms of like swarming, you know, around offenses the way that they do. I was like, for me, it's the defense that Kind of impressed me in the way that they made Boston actually have to work. You know, some of those shots could have went in of like make or mislead kind of things, but for me it's just process. Like Boston has to actually like really methodically work through this defense to generate good offense. And I was quite impressed by that.
- [07:45]
Kaz
It's the defense and the overall just swarming. Just the depth of the defenders that they have, but also the malleability. Like, yes, they have Isaiah Hartenschen, who's made a pretty pronounced difference for them on the interior. He's just basically built of marble and he lays the wood in the way that they just didn't have last year. But it's also the fact that they could put their $30 million center and bring them off the bench just because they want to try something new with that starting lineup. I think the starting combat that they started with hadn't started a single game just to say, started four different times. SGA Kayson Wallace, Aaron Wiggins, Lou Dort, Chet Holmgren. And to be able to basically try something new in a high leverage game at the end of the season just speaks to kind of like their overall principles and they're just like POV and all this stuff. I asked earlier in the season, Mark Dagno, like, why do you try all these different lineup combinations to start with? Getting guys like Dylan Jones, guys who aren't really in the rotation anymore. And it's because he wants to like build just familiarity with different combinations. And it comes home to roost in a game like this where they didn't look out of sorts trying something different.
- [08:54]
David Shoemaker
I think for them especially, they're going to need to find a lot of their offense along the way. Over the course of the playoffs, they're going to have to invent new ways to score that are outside of their normal rhythm, that are outside of system. Not unlike what the Celtics had to do last year. I think it's very normal and a part of the evolution of these teams. And they're going to have to find it from someone like Aaron Wiggins, who did not have a good game, but has been balling a lot lately. Really scoring for them. Has really come on strong over the course of the season. Has had a great just like month or six week stretch because he's been put in those sorts of situations. And you can see Case and Wallace have those sorts of games. You can see Kenrich Williams come into the lineup. This is a perfect Kendrich Williams matchup. By the way, the fact that The Thunder can just reach onto their bench and throw out a lanky, versatile, good rebounding wing who can actually hang with some of these guys. There just aren't any other teams that have that kind of luxury. And so OKC's depth, even when J Dub is out of the lineup and Alex Caruso is out of the lineup, is so formidable. And it comes from, as you're saying jv, like dagnault fostering the confidence in those guys, putting them in positions to succeed and pushing, putting them in positions to explore what they can offer the Thunder as well.
- [10:00]
Kaz
Yeah, that's kind of the same thing with Chet basically been given this second half of the season to really find himself in a way that I think is going to bear fruit in this game first and foremost. But definitely in the playoffs. I mean, we could talk about some of the concerns I think are well founded about the supplementary offense that the Thunder have at times had to reach for and it hasn't been quite there. J Dub probably one of the prime candidates for that in the playoffs, but obviously Chet is going to have to be able to give that extra punch. And I think in this game you saw the difference that it makes for this team where they could just go to him because there's just nobody else like him. Another team just doesn't have a Chet who could start at center and basically guard out on the perimeter, but also go down into the trenches and be a rim protector for you and then also play next to Harge teen. It doesn't really change much of what they're doing fundamentally being able to basically pace him out, not going out at the deadline and giving any sort of like, of a safety valve or any sort of net if in case like he didn't play well, if the injury just kind of lingered into the second half. I think really just speaks to their organizational, just POV and just like how they're just doing things so meticulously and not being too overwhelmed with the stakes and the fact that they are probably the favorites for the title right now. That they're still going to do the little things that have led to success and gotten them to this point.
- [11:17]
David Shoemaker
I think the only reason that stuff plays is because of the internal improvement. It's because a guy like Lou Dort, for example, is just knocking down threes overall this season is punishing. Teams that try to leave him is not only doing that, but then when he freaks teams out enough that they start to close out can sidestep into other threes and other looks like that's who Gord is right now and will he be that guy in May? I think it's fair to ask. We're going to, we're going to certainly find out sooner than later. Will Alex Caruso be that kind of player when he's back in the lineup because teams are going to dare him to shoot. This is what the Thunder make you do, is they, they force you to give up some of those looks. Two guys like Lou Dort, two guys like Caruso, two guys like Aaron Wiggins, I just think that they're all at a point, maybe Caruso accepted because he's had such a weird shooting season overall, but Aaron Wiggins and Dort have evolved as shooters to a level where I'm not really comfortable leaving those guys wide open. I don't feel great about the prospect of sort of the either or game that the Thunder put. But you into even knowing that we've seen them have lulls with that half court offense wise. We've seen them have, you know, 18 point quarters where it's just like something's a little off. The process is good, but they're not knocking down the shots. I just think overall they're coming into a, into a state and a place where I feel really confident in so many of those role players right now.
- [12:33]
Justin Varier
The, the thing about Lou Dort last night, that was kind of crazy, you guys mentioned the Sidestep 3, but also there was like a couple drives where he just took Derrick White to the rack, just put him on his hip and babied him, which I thought was interesting. Cause I thought against Dallas last year, part of the strategy was like, all right, Lou Dorrit's not a complete zero from three. Let's run him off the line. And he's going to make bad decisions. He's going to take the wrong layup, he's going to make the wrong kick out. Um, this year he's like more confident and patient when he gets ran off the line. So I'm just like, wait a minute, like, Lou Doherty is becoming a complete like, guard in that way. And, and that's something to watch because, you know, like Bruce Bowen, you know, to borrow somebody from yesteryear, another Chip Anglin disciple, he could knock down quarter threes with the best of them. Cool. But that man could not dribble. No, that man was not going to the basket and finishing over length and, you know, like putting people on his hip. He wasn't doing any of that. Lou Dohert is like, all right, I'm dead eye from three now, which I think is safe to say like he's making like 40%.
- [13:40]
David Shoemaker
It's inarguable at this point.
- [13:41]
Justin Varier
Just can shoot flat out. And now he's adding some of the ball skill stuff that, that I think is. Is going to be key because the best teams in the playoffs are going to be like, all right, you've made a couple of threes. We're going to close out on you a lot harder now. Now you know, do you have it in you to make the right decision whether on the drive or the kick on the shot that you ultimately decide to take?
- [14:06]
Kaz
Listen, I think we're in fool me 17 times with Lou Dor and just like counting on his three point shooting. But I think that's where you get back to the defense and how much that is just like such a foundation for everything that they do and something that you can almost bank on as a strong counter against one of the most three dependent but also most high octane offenses we've ever seen in the Celtics. Like I've long had this fascination with as the three pointers and just the attempts just kind of skyrocketed about what was going to happen defensively because I felt like there was always going to be an advantage for someone to finally coming up with the right sort of approach in order to counterbalance that. Like threes were just such a powerful tool to harness. It seemed almost impossible to the point where we were getting into defenses where teams were selling out with two rim protectors and basically living with the variance on the three point end. It's not as much of a either or situation. The Thunder actually do probably prioritize the interior as opposed to allow the threes. And that's probably why we saw the Celtics rack up 63, which I believe was tied for the third most in NBA history in this game. But just their ability to both guard the interior with players that look like guards, but they're basically so stout and long and aggressive that they could also. And they're so mobile that they could also get out and. And provide like a credible contest is like not. It's something that we've never seen before. And so I almost wonder like, yeah, we can marvel at the Celtics ratcheting up 60 plus threes, but if the Thunder have the only solution to ungodly amounts of volume like that's might be the trump card in these playoffs.
- [15:45]
David Shoemaker
I know we can start every discussion after a Celtics loss with the token. Like did they take too many threes in this game?
- [15:51]
Kaz
They did they probably because they had to.
- [15:55]
David Shoemaker
This is what I'm saying is like, I think this matchup nudges them in that direction overall. And that's something they're going to have to monitor if these two teams do meet in the finals. I think having Kristaps Porzingis out of the lineup counterintuitively also nudges them in that direction. We think of KP as a space five, but his ability to punish, punish mismatches, get to the elbow, shoot over the top of guys inside is so important to the overall balance of their team. And Al Horford, bless him for playing fucking amazing basketball overall, it just has been incredible. But is not that right? He will get the occasional duck in, but mostly he's going to be at the three point line, mostly he's going to be sniping from outside. And he's proven to be very good at it. But it's a different element to your offense. I just think there was that stretch in the second quarter where the Thunder didn't have Shay on the floor. They obviously didn't have J Dub on the floor cause he's been out of the game. They had Isaiah Hardenstein, they had Chet and Usman Jang all together and they were just mashing everything that came inside up. And then Kayson Wallace is out there chasing dudes on the perimeter. Isaiah Joe was putting in work. That's not a lineup that's going to churn out points for okc, but they are a lineup that can chew you up and spit you out every time you try to drive and force you into only relying on those threes. And that's always the delicate balance with this stuff. It's like when you're choosing to execute to create threes that can be good offense. When threes are all you've got, you're. You're in like pray and spray mode at that point.
- [17:16]
Justin Varier
Yeah. And I think the ultimate question last night, Drew Holiday and Al Horford took 20 threes. I think most teams that play the Celtics, that's the outcome that they're aiming for are 20 threes combined by Drew Holiday and Al Horford. And so you know, I've seen Drew Holidays make make four threes in the game before. Like it's, he has it within him to do it. But you know, specifically in the playoffs, I've seen them miss some plum three point opportunities. It didn't really happen for real for them last year in the playoffs, particularly in the Eastern Conference playoffs. But it's definitely something to monitor.
- [17:56]
Kaz
Yeah, I mean I do think Kristaps.
- [17:58]
Justin Varier
They got six of 14, by the way. I mean, six of 12 killed it.
- [18:02]
Kaz
You definitely saw it though, like the. The missing Kristaps, especially when the Thunder went to the zone. Because Kristaps is just kind of the ultimate zone buster there. As long as, like the quarter steps don't just completely envelop his body. Like, he should be able to provide that for them in this matchup. It just, it just seemed like the Thunder were the more pragmatic, practical approach here. And it's obviously on the defensive side just being able to counterbalance the. The high volume, the high variance of what the Celtics were doing, but also offensively where it's just like Shay just. He gets to the line, man, and he's going to do it all the time. Like, he basically had one fewer free throw attempt that the Celtics did as a team and it's just like, that's repeatable, you know, like, whereas the Celtics, yeah, like, maybe they shoot their way into four wins. Like, but I can bank on Shay doing this four times in a series and then getting the win as a result of that.
- [18:50]
Justin Varier
I absolutely agree. I don't. I think the three point, the free throw stuff is going to carry because look, at the end of the day, like, you cannot afford to give this guy any daylight for his shot. That's why he's drawing these files. A lot of it is foul hunting. Let's not get it twisted.
- [19:07]
Kaz
He's good at it.
- [19:08]
Justin Varier
He's really good at it.
- [19:09]
David Shoemaker
Yeah.
- [19:10]
Justin Varier
Shouts to my guy, Lou Will, who on his podcast is like, all you guys complaining about the foul drawn. We taught him that shit. He was my brook. I told him how to do that.
- [19:19]
David Shoemaker
From one of the best to ever do it, to be honest with you.
- [19:21]
Kaz
That's right. But what do you. But wise, what do you think about that aesthetically? Because I think Shay is starting to get a little bit of blowback, especially when you see like in the Nuggets game where he's not even being touched and he's just flailing around. Like, I think. Do you find it off putting to.
- [19:35]
Justin Varier
Watch him that one foul that he got against this, the. The Nuggets at the free throw line where he's leaning all the way into the. That was ridiculous. But I think there'll be a lot less of that in the playoffs, honestly. And it's going to be, you know, if he doesn't get there 12 or get there 9, and it's going to, to be honest to God, had to file this guy type of attempts. I don't think in the playoffs he's going to get, you know, some of these benefit of the doubt calls because generally speaking, that's not how the playoffs go. And so I think people like him are going to actually get their Jokic. Those kind of guys that like, you can't give them oxygen. If you give them oxygen, they kill you. What, like, what do you want defendants to do?
- [20:12]
David Shoemaker
Man, he draws a lot of fouls because he's the best one on one player in the league right now. He is driving more than anyone else in the league right now. And it's not as if the Thunder overall are winning games because they're dominating the. Dominating the free throw margin, right? And so I think if it were him and another teammate doing the same thing, maybe it would grade on me a little more. I love watching him try to score. I love watching him go through guys. And frankly, a lot of the times defenders object. It's like Jalen Brown with a forearm in Shay's chest and you're wondering why they called a foul.
- [20:41]
Justin Varier
But that's. That is another thing I will say. He's got a Giannis esque off arm billy club that he likes to employ.
- [20:49]
David Shoemaker
I mean, they all do.
- [20:50]
Justin Varier
It's true. His is pretty up there in terms of aggression, but it's part of the game, man, as a defender, you know what I mean? Draw that foul.
- [20:59]
David Shoemaker
I also want to say this in Shay's defense because I was a bit of a James Harden apologist too. Just from the perspective of like, if it works and it's efficient and you can put up the kinds of numbers James Harden was putting up throughout his career, you should probably do it. Was it aesthetically pleasing? Not always. And some of that was when Harden would drive, he would obviously pull up, you know, guys, arms, hook the guy's arms, hook the guy's arms and pull up. But he didn't even do it with the attempting of a shot. He would just throw the ball in the air and wait for the whistle and almost like force the whistle in that way. One thing I really like about Shea is he playing. He plays until he hears it and he, he's going to throw the shot up. It's going to be weird and off balance, even if he's trying to bait out the contact. But like he's playing to get up a shot and he's going to do it in a way that may be conducive to a whistle, but I don't think is out of bounds, frankly.
- [21:45]
Justin Varier
The Hardened thing that I objected to was the three point shot foul.
- [21:49]
David Shoemaker
Just the falling over kind of. Yeah.
- [21:51]
Justin Varier
Freaking crazy.
- [21:53]
Kaz
That's what I'm saying. Like, we live through Harden. Yeah, yeah, we live through. This is like ethical. Harden is what I've always kind of referred to Shay as. Like, yes, he gets with some stuff, but it's within the flow of what they're doing offensively. He's not dribbling at the top of the key for 20 fucking seconds and then just trying to like get up underneath somebody with a sidestep. 3. Like, it's a completely different experience.
- [22:16]
Justin Varier
Just so people at home understand that Justin's been ethical pilled with his mustache and his, you know, his flannel shirt, which he called a dress flannel. He's in the land of ethical non monogamy, y'all. So that's why the ethical is in his brain. He's just about ethics these days.
- [22:38]
David Shoemaker
Justin, could you outline for us what separates a regular flannel from a dress flannel?
- [22:43]
Kaz
It's a great question. One price.
- [22:48]
David Shoemaker
Yeah. Okay.
- [22:50]
Kaz
I'm not going to like Pendleton. I'm going to like the bougie knockoff trying to do Pendleton, but it's more expensive for whatever reason. But I don't know, this one just sits a little nicer. It's not like I'm wearing it for warmth. I'm actually wearing it for. For aesthetic purposes. Yeah, this one's like a little tighter, but I also have a flannel from the same maker that's a little bit chunkier and bigger, but also basically in the same pattern but a different color. I would say 80% of my wardrobe is flannel. So I was built for. For this environment. Someone would say, I found Portland, but I think Portland found.
- [23:25]
David Shoemaker
Yeah, let's all be honest about that.
- [23:27]
Justin Varier
That's big facts.
- [23:29]
Kaz
But yeah, no, I, I just, I get it every time someone's going to be in the spotlight and they're going to do the herky jerky stuff and just like maneuver their way to the line. People are going to be upset about it, but it's like it almost is like, I'm not going to complain about the brutalists using AI when like we've witnessed like Marvel movies and like Transformers movies, just doing like basically doing movies in front of a green screen where there's no actual people, like, show. There are degrees to this, certainly.
- [23:55]
David Shoemaker
So especially I. The contrast always comes out in games like this because Jason Tatum in some games doesn't play in a way that Facilitates foul calls in some games. I think he gets kind of a bum whistle, to be honest with you. But it's not helping the fact that Jalen Brown just did not participate in the way that the Celtics needed him to. So much of, like, if, you know, if Chris Depswarzingis isn't going to be out there, if Tatum is doing, frankly, about as much as you can reasonably expect him to do.
- [24:20]
Justin Varier
Tatum was great.
- [24:21]
David Shoemaker
He had a great game. A lot of the supplementary creation and the ability to step outside just like the normal rhythms that are generating all those threes. We're looking at you, Jaylen Brown, you know, we're looking at you to push through defensive pressure to score against some of these guys who are smaller but stout, to. To make hay of matchups that, yes, are difficult, but frankly, if you're going to succeed at the highest levels, those are. Those are the matchups. You have to be able to, if not win, at least leverage at the level that Jaylen Brown did in last year's playoffs.
- [24:49]
Justin Varier
And look, Jaylen Brown to get no free throw attempts in this game, I think is kind of inexcusable. I get it. They're packing the paint. You're probably passing it out when you draw two. But he's got to be better at forcing the issue, especially when they got guys like Wiggins and Isaiah Joe out there, like, attack those guys and beat them the hell up.
- [25:07]
Kaz
Yeah, I appreciate Brown's perspective, especially when things get tight. He has the doggedness that you really want to see unearth from this team when they get into crunch time situations and in the playoffs. They obviously went to him a lot there, but I think Wads is right. You want to see him put his head down, get to the rack, manufacture something as opposed to like, step back into it. 3. There's. I think it was against the Lakers game where things were getting down to the wire there and he just like air ball to three and it's just like, oh, that's, that's not what you want from Jaylen Brown there. But I have a hard time just conjuring up any sort of worry at this point with the Celtics. I guess this is just what happens in the encore season with the champions. Just like, oh, I know what the issues are, but I'm not going to get into a tizzy into it until I see them fail in this regard in a high leverage playoff series. Like, we could talk about, like, oh, over reliance on threes, not having Chris stops. Drew once again, kind of being a dud. Offensively, but like, it's just such a known quantity at this point, I can't manufacture any outrage over it.
- [26:04]
Justin Varier
I have a question for you guys today. Who are you picking if these two lined up in the final, the NBA Finals?
- [26:12]
David Shoemaker
Okc.
- [26:14]
Kaz
Yeah. I still have the Thunder. Maybe that's because I picked them going into the season.
- [26:18]
David Shoemaker
Yeah, same.
- [26:19]
Justin Varier
You guys think the Thunder are going to win the championship this year?
- [26:22]
David Shoemaker
I do.
- [26:23]
Kaz
Yeah.
- [26:25]
Justin Varier
Do you not shot?
- [26:26]
David Shoemaker
No.
- [26:26]
Justin Varier
Hell no. No shot, no. I still don't think they're coming out the West. Who do you think is coming that train.
- [26:34]
David Shoemaker
Who do you think is coming out of the west then? Was.
- [26:36]
Justin Varier
Come see, that's the thing. I, I, I, I'm taking the field over okc. I haven't drilled down on an actual team yet. I just.
- [26:43]
Kaz
Sure.
- [26:43]
David Shoemaker
If you give me the field, I'm going to take the field. But if you're going to tell me to pick one team, I'm picking the.
- [26:48]
Justin Varier
Coming out the West.
- [26:49]
Kaz
They're not Tiger.
- [26:56]
Justin Varier
Oh, man. Shout outs to Ernie Ells. If I had to pick one team that wasn't okc.
- [27:05]
David Shoemaker
Yeah.
- [27:06]
Justin Varier
Yeah. It'd probably be Denver. So long as my guy Gordon plays. Long as Gordon plays, it'd probably be him. Probably be them. But the cat. That's a tough one. It's tough.
- [27:20]
Kaz
This episode of the Ringer NBA show is brought to you by State Farm. There's a lot to say when buying a new home or car, but only one thing to say when you need help to protect them like a good neighbor. State Farm. Is there a State Farm agent can help you choose the coverage you need, like a good neighborhood. State Farm is there. Yes. And that's actually a good entree to the second part of this conversation we wanted to have here. I asked you guys to come up with basically the swing factors for a lot of the biggest contenders on the board here because we're gotten to the point where it really is four, maybe five if you really want to stretch it. Like, I would be surprised if anyone but those teams made it into the NBA finals at this point. But you know, there's still some slight concerns. So what are, I guess X factors is traditionally what we call these, but like what can swing a title run one way or another for the biggest teams? And I think for Denver wise, you hit it for me. I think it's Aaron Gordon. This is a third time now. He's missing time with this calf strain and you just look at like the product one, just the eye test of it and they look like they have so much more margin for error when, when Gordon is playing, but when he's not, all of a sudden Russ seems essential as opposed to this bonus, that they could just take what they can get. And especially under the microscope of a playoff series, just the fact that he does throw away possessions a lot of the times I think is going to matter more. But you know, just, you look at the numbers like he's basically on off net rating wise, like right there with Jokic right now, I think yogic is at 10.2. I think Aaron Gordon's at 10.1. So like if this thing is going to linger until the playoffs, I, I don't know how what they could do about that. Rob.
- [28:55]
David Shoemaker
He really is the piece that makes their rotation make sense. And that is concerning.
- [28:59]
Justin Varier
Especially on defense.
- [29:00]
David Shoemaker
Especially on defense. And now like, so if there is one big swing factor for the Nuggets, it's that of all the contenders, they are easily the worst defensive team. And so they just, they just might not be good enough defensively to win. If they are good enough defensively to win, it'll be because they can kind of hold water on that end and the offense will be overwhelming. But when you're bleeding all those points, especially without Aaron Gordon, it puts so much pressure on the offense to be in high gear all the time to overcome everything that you're giving up the other way. And so with when you don't have Gordon, you're missing his defense, you're missing his kind of connecting playmaking, you're missing his rebounding. You're also missing by percentage, the best three point shooter on the team this season, which is quite an evolution from the Aaron Gordon crazy. But that's why I think as much as anything, it is Aaron Gordon. But even within that, if you want to zero in on what offensively can sort of swing. The way things go for the Nuggets, I think it's so much to do with their spacing against high level competition. And you saw it last night against the Wolves too. If, if you can kind of crowd Jokic and shrink his passing lanes at the same time, you have a real shot to put the Nuggets in a box. And it, that gets harder and harder the more you put these sort of borderline shooters on the floor and you have a guy like Aaron Gordon out.
- [30:08]
Justin Varier
Yeah, the Nuggets, they're, they've lost four straight against the freaking Bulls. Like a team that knocked you out in the playoffs last year. For you to not be able to get one win off of them, like play with some level of pride and beat them one time in the regular season, like, that's a bad omen. And Edwards just absolutely loves every single matchup that the Nuggets throw it. Like he feels so confident and empowered against this guy. And now, you know, and shouts to Aunt Edwards, he said, I've been watching Luca tapes about how to beat these double teams.
- [30:41]
David Shoemaker
He looked, it's getting, he's getting off.
- [30:44]
Justin Varier
Of it much faster. He knows exactly where he wants to go with it. Um, it's crazy, some of those whips.
- [30:49]
David Shoemaker
To Jaden McDaniels in the corner out of the double. That's superstar shit. That's what we've been waiting for from Ant.
- [30:56]
Justin Varier
He absolutely loves playing against Denver's defense. And then, you know, Jamal Murray just looks horrible. Yeah, he just looks hard. He looked bad against them in the playoffs last year. Last night, man, they were just bullying this guy. And he felt harried, he felt pressured, he felt like he was feeling the size. And yeah, they gotta figure, they gotta clean that up. Cause if the Murray, if they're guarding your Yokich and Murray two man game with like two and like a quarter, right, like they're, they're shading guys but not completely selling out, right. And Murray can't find any space, then it's like this shit is easy to guard.
- [31:34]
Kaz
Yeah, I appreciate the, I guess, ethicalness of the Thunder or the Nuggets is three point shooting because they have managed to be one of the best teams percentage wise, but one of the lowest volume teams. It's such a stark contrast to not only with the Celtics, but what even we're getting with the Minnesota Timberwolves with their ratcheting up 40 threes a game. The Nuggets are basically like, now we're just going to let Jokic create the best shot and we'll take whatever we're going to get. But I do think it comes to bear sometimes, like the margin for error is just a little bit slimmer. When you have a team like the Wolves that is going to ratchet up in that regard, I do think it makes it a little bit more difficult. And so it really is incumbent on them to execute on the highest level. And so if you don't have a Gordon, if you don't have Gordon hitting in the way that he has, or Christian Brown, who before the season was like a good shooter but not someone you would rely on, like you need all those things to be clicking. And the Nuggets just feel like they need to be optimized all the time in order to play in some of these games. One thing I will say, though, the size advantage is real. And you saw that in the first game against the Thunder where Jokic was basically hunting Hart and Shine. And we talked about, like, what a physical presence, Heart and Stein is. But, like, Jokic was seeking him out just to bully him into the basket. And so they can keep doing that.
- [32:49]
Justin Varier
And that's. And that's the thing in a, like, individual matchups, we always say this. The playoffs is like a boxing match. The styles make the fights right. And I think in an individual matchup, like, I could just see several games where Hartenstein just gets two quick fouls. Just, you're out of here immediately three minutes into the first quarter. Same with Chet. Like, you know, and then now your defense is compromised where you're like, you're making your doubles and triples obvious and that. That has, like, these compounding effects. Um, but again, the defense is definitely something to monitor. Like, I. I even think Aaron Gordon is their best matchup against Ant Edwards because he can be the most physical. Although Ant can dribble by him.
- [33:30]
David Shoemaker
Like, yeah, we saw that last year in the playoffs some too. I mean, Ant was tortured for Gordon.
- [33:34]
Justin Varier
He was too big for kcp. He treated KCP like he was his child. It was disgust. Same with Christian Brown, right? Who freaking Zach Harper has me messed up calling his kid Brawn instead of Brown.
- [33:48]
Kaz
I do that all the time.
- [33:52]
Justin Varier
Looks like he's diesel enough to. To. To. To guard Ant, but, like, Ant just does whatever he wants against him, too.
- [33:58]
David Shoemaker
Yep. They ask a lot of Kristen Brown in terms of the perimeter defense. And so if. If you want to point to, like, where might their defense break down in particular? It's not just, oh, you know, like, Jokic isn't the most flexible pick and roll defender. It's not just Michael Porter Jr. Sort of. Okay. It's like they don't really have a great go to defensive stopping option. Christian Brown is quite good and works really hard. Peyton Watson is a little too skinny at this point. Aaron Gordon, as we said, I mean, asking him to hang with Ant is ridiculous. Asking anyone to hang with Ant is ridiculous. So they have guys who can try and they can rotate in those matchups, but the Nuggets just aren't a flexible defensive team. They do have a lot of size, and that size helps, but they don't have a lot of chess pieces to move around the board, per se.
- [34:42]
Kaz
Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. Hyundai knows the road could be a little hectic at the best of times. But just like a great player anticipates the next move on the court, Hyundai helps you anticipate the unexpected on the road. Their available class exclusive advanced safety features like forward collision avoidance assist and blind spot view monitor work to protect you on every drive. Learn more about Hyundai@HyundaiUSA.com Call 562-314-4603 for complete details. This episode is brought to you by Smucker's Uncrustables. There's nothing like a snack that comes in clutch. So who's the real mvp? Uncrustables the best part of the sandwich. It's a round crimped sandwich made with soft pillowy bread filled with peanut butter and jelly. It goes straight from the freezer to your lunchbox, making it easier to pack lunch and sprint out the door. Now that's a morning win. You'll find Smucker's Uncrustables in the freezer aisle. This episode is brought to you by patron. 100% additive free tequila. When it comes to ingredients, Patron doesn't need to play games. That's why their tequila is crafted with 100% Weber Blue Agave water and thyme. No sweeteners, no added extracts, no secrets, just 100% additive free tequila. Visit patron tequila.com to learn more. The perfect way to enjoy Patron is responsibly Copyright 2025, imported by the Patron Spirits Company Coral Gables, Florida. Tequila 40% alcohol by volume. Well, it sounds like was you're. You're becoming a little bullish on the Wolves. Like do you think because like slowly.
- [36:20]
Justin Varier
They'Ve been rising the Denver matchup.
- [36:22]
Kaz
Okay, but we're not.
- [36:24]
Justin Varier
No, no. Do you think the Wolves are going to go to the final? Have a chance to go to the finals? No, but they employ Julius Randle. They can't go to the finals.
- [36:33]
Kaz
I think quietly disqualifying.
- [36:35]
David Shoemaker
If you have Julius Randall, they won't even let you in.
- [36:38]
Kaz
No, it's like having the friend with the wrong shoes. You can't get into the club.
- [36:43]
Justin Varier
Yeah, that.
- [36:45]
David Shoemaker
That was from a place of pain. Justin, I hear you showing up in Doc Martens to the club.
- [36:50]
Kaz
I do wear a lot of boots these days. Don't get to break out the new balances as much as I'd like. But. No but I mean the warriors are gaining a lot of attention. Is like maybe the. The dark horse in the west here it seems like steadily the wolves at the very least have found balance before. Where they were just like struggling to be in some of these games.
- [37:09]
Justin Varier
Yeah, I think they're playing way better than they were easily.
- [37:16]
Kaz
But since we're talking around the west, why don't we talk about the Thunder then? Is there anything that we hadn't talked about in the Celtics game that is going to worry you? Like Rob, what do you have? Is there SW swing factor?
- [37:28]
David Shoemaker
I think it's mostly what we already discussed which is the secondary tertiary offense, their half court offense is actually quite good in the regular season, but it does have those spells and I think those spells will get worse against higher levels of competition more consistently. And so a lot of it is going to be Jalen Williams and Chet, who I thought were were pretty good in that Dallas series last year that the Thunder lost. One of them is going to have to be very good to great in order to have a really sustained championship level run. And both might have it in them and it's great to have two possibilities so one guy doesn't have to do it all the way through. And it can be a little bit more matchup dependent. But they're going to need some diversity to what they do on offense beyond just Shay being generally unstoppable and creating kind of driving kick action for everybody else.
- [38:14]
Kaz
Yeah, I think it's the difference between having options and having versatility, malleability, whatever buzzword you want to throw out there versus knowing exactly what the order of operations is. If I'm Denver, I know I'm going to do this and this and if not that, then this. Whereas like the Thunder, it's almost like a giant flowchart where there's like 90 different options and it's like oh well, against this matchup or this, I could use this guy. But maybe in this guy, like they have so many different options to cycle through. I do wonder sometimes if you're going to waste time in a critical playoff game trying Wiggins because he's been playing well, or trying Joe in certain situations, but oops, he gave away too much on the defensive end like that optionality, as the NBA likes to say, sometimes can work against you.
- [38:55]
Justin Varier
I think it's important to with a young team developing the confidence of these guys to say, look, this isn't just a Shay and the Pips, right? Even though we know it is, we want you guys to feel like you're more than that, feel more empowered. Go ahead, take over a possession, Isaiah. Joe, who cares? Like go ahead, do the same thing who dor. And that stuff is nice and it's Cute. And it's cool in the regular season, but in the playoffs you do that and turn it over. One possession, brick a shot the other, your confidence now it's like, I, I don't, I don't know, man. Like every possession counts. Yeah. And like you wonder if they, like you said, develop that sort of know how of being like, you know what, this thing is open for me, but let's run this other thing that makes more sense for how our offense is supposed to operate.
- [39:39]
David Shoemaker
They also feel like the kind of team too. And you'll see this in the playoffs sometimes where teams that are not amazing offensive rebounding teams in the regular season have the personnel to crank it up when they really, really want to. And you could see them especially the more that they play big with Chet and Isaiah Hardenstein together, they could mash the offensive glass. And that's another way to kind of max out what you're doing in the half court, right. Is not only you getting the great first shot or fouls from Shea, not only getting the secondary and tertiary stuff from, from J Dub and Chad, but if you're also cleaning up misses, then I think you're putting yourself in a different category of execution too.
- [40:11]
Justin Varier
And, and my thing with the Thunder, again with their offense is like what happens in the playoffs when Chet misses two straight three pointers on two straight possessions on that third one, is he gonn. Even if he's completely wide open or Hartenstein misses two of those, he be shooting them shits from like the free throw line sometimes the flow. He misses two straight of the push shots.
- [40:32]
Kaz
Yeah, right.
- [40:32]
David Shoemaker
Like throwing it up two straight of.
- [40:34]
Justin Varier
Those and it doesn't go swish like it has been doing all season. And he gets it at the free throw line, is he going to hesitate? Is he going to throw the third one up? And if he misses that like that's. Those are the things that I think about with this team and whether they're going to be able to execute in the tightest spots in the playoffs.
- [40:52]
Kaz
On the other side of the bracket, the Celtics. I think we kind of talked through it. Mine is just old guys, like, yes, it's Kpop.
- [40:59]
Justin Varier
The old guys got to make it through.
- [41:01]
Kaz
It's true. And then it's Horford. Horford is playing incredible, having one of the best like late career stretches he's had over the past week plus. But you know, sometimes the music stops and it's just like if you get the wrong matchup, if the opponent is a little bit more dynamic, then he might be A little bit more exposed. But the fact that he is still keeping his feet moving against some of the bigger body Lucas and type is I. I've been marveling this entire week at what he's been able to do.
- [41:26]
David Shoemaker
He's been awesome and. But again, a lot is asked of him and they've shown that they can win without Chris Deps Porzingis without Drew Holiday at a hundred percent. Dealing with some of these injuries. Just normal regular season stuff. But things are so much easier if they don't have to do that. And so as we said earlier, if anything with the Celtics right now feels like nitpicking. They're not a shoe in, but they have everything that they need to win. We've seen it empirically. So as long as those guys are healthy and relatively like in good, in good flow and shape in terms of their games, I think Boston is going to be just fine. But things can go off the rails a little bit as soon as you start dipping into that bench more than you have to. Especially we've seen what great defenses can do to a Peyton Pritchard. Here to the Luke Cornett minutes there to Sam Houser. If you have to stretch him too far. Like you don't want to have to dip into those things if you don't have to.
- [42:15]
Justin Varier
I like when Peyton Pritchard takes a step back. I don't like when the step back is 26ft.
- [42:20]
David Shoemaker
No, right.
- [42:21]
Justin Varier
Like if he's stepping back from a long two and two or three. All right, cool. But sometimes it's like, bro, you taking these shots a little bit too far. Just sometimes. Again, these are nitpicks. You know, I think he's been way better about getting to the basket. You know, getting a guy on the hip, turn around, fade away from nine feet because the floor is so freaking spread. It's just him and the guy that's guarding him down there. You know, some people like, oh, Sam Houser. You think he's going to do this in the playoffs? I think he's going to do fine in the playoffs. I just think it's a matter of these guys being locked in, honestly. And Drew and Porzingis playing a reasonable amount of minutes and games in the playoffs, they will be able to get through this thing.
- [43:06]
Kaz
We were talking about this a little before we came on, but I think Jrue Holiday might have the best career in NBA history, if only because right now he basically has to really pop in like seven regular season games. And just like that, we have the knowledge that he could Turn it on in the playoff series. But sometimes he doesn't offensively, and that's fine too, because teams just need him. They need exactly what he brings.
- [43:27]
Justin Varier
It's like if Toby Harris would have signed three $140 million contracts. Right? Where whenever anything goes wrong, nobody gives a shit. Nobody's asking Jrue Holiday to answer any questions yet. He's getting paid 35, 40 million every single time out. It's amazing.
- [43:44]
David Shoemaker
I feel like Drew Holiday had to answer some questions in Milwaukee sometimes. I'm not saying he was getting.
- [43:50]
Justin Varier
Look, it was Chris Middleton and Giannis.
- [43:52]
David Shoemaker
There's different levels of scrutiny based on stardom, based on market, all of these, all of these things. Like Drew Holiday, Drew does get to skate a little bit. And I will say while he skates, has the complete respect of all of his peers who talk glowingly about him at all times. Seems like a great guy, can be a really good high impact player. Also has some real playoff stinkers on his resume.
- [44:15]
Justin Varier
He's a Peyton man of the Year candidate for sure.
- [44:17]
David Shoemaker
There you go.
- [44:18]
Justin Varier
Even though he doesn't play in the.
- [44:20]
Kaz
NFL, it's the Twyman Stokes Award.
- [44:22]
Justin Varier
In the NBA, it's the Twyman Stokes Award. Media darling. So you know he's always going to get great press, but by all accounts, it's deserved. Like the guy is a great guy, great teammate, you know, plays his at, plays hard as hell. Never like, you know what I mean? Hot dogging it. I get it. But it's just like, whoo. He has made his accountant boys proud.
- [44:44]
Kaz
That's right.
- [44:44]
David Shoemaker
This is what defense gets you. Buys you a lot of goodwill, you know.
- [44:48]
Kaz
That's right. And also the timing of being a big.
- [44:51]
David Shoemaker
That's true. The double standard towards bigs, it's ridiculous.
- [44:54]
Kaz
Yeah, he's made a lot of money himself and unfortunately he's going to be making a lot more for the next three years for the, for the Timberwolves, last team I have on the board here. And then we can maybe get into some wild cards. Obviously the Cleveland Cavaliers, I have down the Celtics because the Cavs have virtually acquitted themselves against every other opponent they're going to face in the Eastern Conference. As we're talking about them. 15 game winning streak just out of nowhere. Just as if, like they have anything left to prove. Just rattling off. Have not lost since February 5th. Have lost one game since January 27th. We're talking about almost two months here. It's insane.
- [45:31]
David Shoemaker
It's fucking nuts.
- [45:32]
Justin Varier
Yeah, I think, look, I, I'm the Celtics Jumping out on them 25 to 3. I think it's indicative of something. I think the Celtics are a stronger team. The matchup is just tough. But, you know, you just wonder if by the time they faced.
- [45:47]
David Shoemaker
Wait, did. Didn't the Cavs win that game?
- [45:49]
Justin Varier
They won the game.
- [45:50]
David Shoemaker
Okay.
- [45:51]
Justin Varier
They won the game. But, like, going down 25. I hear you. I hear you bad.
- [45:54]
David Shoemaker
Look, yeah, I certainly.
- [45:56]
Justin Varier
What I'm saying. And the other win that they got was a major comeback as well.
- [46:00]
David Shoemaker
Yes.
- [46:01]
Justin Varier
I'm wondering if, because they wouldn't play the Celtics until the conference finals, if they could just get so much confidence between, you know, Evan Mobley and Darius Garland, specifically those two guys, that by the time they get the Celtics matchup is like, you know what? We can do this against anybody, and they're not afraid to seize the moment. I think that could be a saving grace. But like, right now, I just. I don't see it for them. But I understand people that are enthusiastic. I'm way more convinced of it now, obviously, than I was back in January or December when they had the same winning percentage.
- [46:37]
David Shoemaker
Right. I think the Celtics matchup is always going to loom large for them. I think you're right about that, Justin. And to me, it's. It's the Celtics. It's also just the more the broader idea of executing against length. Because you're right, they've been great. A buzzsaw against basically everybody. If you want to pick out the few losses on their resume, there are quite few. Right. It is teams like Boston. It is a couple. It's games against the Hawks who have a lot of defensive length on the perimeter. It's games against the Rockets who have the same thing. A lot of pressure, a lot of disruptive ability, it seems that can really get into you out there. That said, they've been an elite offense against elite defenses. In general, they've been an elite offense, the best in the league against top 10 teams overall. It's really hard to pick apart what they're doing right now. I think to the extent that there is anything, it is that can you run your stuff through these big, long, flexible opponents. And that is going to come down to. I'm really glad you identified those two guys. Was it's Darius Garland who's been creating out a crowd so much better this season, in part because he's been healthier. Donovan Mitchell has had a great year, but he's going to have to go out and prove that he can do that on a really consistent basis. Evan Mobley Being able to facilitate is going to help. I think having even more shooting than they had last year is going to help. They have a lot of weapons. It's going to come down to like, can they get the ball to the right places against those defenses that really know how to muck things up.
- [47:53]
Kaz
What I love about what the Cavs have right now, especially after bringing in DeAndre Hunter, and he's just like a barrel chested, big old boy who I think is going to help them, especially if they need to size down against a team like the Celtics. They've basically given themselves the, the absolute best possible chance in order to win that Celtics matchup. And I would still, if you were to ask me to pick one or the other, still pick the Celtics because they're just on another level, but they basically work the odds so that like, if you were to look at like the actual math, the percentage of it, the Cavs might have an equal chance or maybe a better chance. But I just like the Celtics, like high end their ceiling better than that. And that's why I would pick the Celtics. But it's almost like the logical pick to pick the Cavs because they have everything you want and in part to jump on some of the opportunities that the Celtics provide. Because as much as I agree with Wise, I think like going down to start with was like, oh, that's the type of haymaker I wonder that they could recover from in a playoff series. The Celtics also had those lows where like they'll go up 20, but then they'll be down 10 all of a sudden at the start of the third quarter because they're just so over reliant on the variance. I think the Cavs have gotten to the point where they can jump on that in a way that they probably weren't before. And so I like their chances, but I still wouldn't pick them is what I would say.
- [49:06]
David Shoemaker
I think we'll have to wait and see. I want to get a little closer and certainly see how those teams are in playoff form if they do find a way to face off in the bracket. But what they have done to me is eradicate a lot of the other Eastern conference competition. Right. It very much feels like a Celtics or Cavs conversation and not tough month for the Knicks, you know, although Mikhail Bridges certainly had his moment last night. Justin, were you at that game?
- [49:31]
Kaz
I wasn't, unfortunately. I was cramming Nuggets tape with you guys.
- [49:34]
David Shoemaker
Cramming Nuggets tape, missing maybe the game of the season with like 50 league changes and a game winning three from Mikhail Bridges to beat. A game winning layup from Denny Abdia that you could have been there to see in person. Tough.
- [49:47]
Kaz
All the benchmarks that, that I look forward to. Basketball game, Denny, close competition. I just man, the fact that they're like, like relying on kickouts to Miles Bridges and some of those overtime possessions just speaks to like they just don't have much of an air a room for error. Man. They just like not having Brunson there just means so much and like they just don't have. It just feels like they're on a different level. Even though earlier in the season I thought they would be right there with the Cavs. So credit to the Cavs for what they've built and what they've kind of accomplished this regular season. 10 losses like we talk about like the, the historic point differential for the Thunder. The Cavs have 10. This is insane.
- [50:23]
Justin Varier
Yeah, it's the greatest. It's the greatest regular season. They're about to break the 09 Cavs record for greatest Cavs regular season ever.
- [50:33]
David Shoemaker
That's awesome.
- [50:34]
Justin Varier
First real team that you could say like, all right, this is real. Since LeBron like so in 20 something and before LeBron was it probably like Larry Nance and Mark Price, you know, like, like Craig Elo, like serious team, you know, like they made the second.
- [50:53]
David Shoemaker
Round of the playoffs a year ago.
- [50:54]
Justin Varier
Nobody thought they could go to the finals though.
- [50:56]
David Shoemaker
Rob, I think we have different definitions of seriousness. If you make to the second round, I think you're a serious team, if.
- [51:02]
Justin Varier
Not a worthy team. Like did we think they were as good as Denver and Dallas and the Wolves and the Celtics last year?
- [51:11]
David Shoemaker
No, no, no. Probably one of the weakest of the teams to make it to the second round. But. But they made it and now they're in a position to do even more. And I do think having that experience helps, right? Like being through those, those fights especially. I mean that rock fight against the Magic. That kind of stuff brings something out of you.
- [51:26]
Justin Varier
Oh my God, I forgot about that.
- [51:28]
David Shoemaker
Series that took years off of all of our lives.
- [51:32]
Justin Varier
That was 90s heat nicks level brickery. Woo.
- [51:37]
Kaz
Well, speaking of things that we'd like to forget, let's get to some of the take forgiveness here. So Rob, explain this to us. There's this idea of email forgiveness. Email debt forgiveness.
- [51:48]
David Shoemaker
Email debt forgiveness day, for those who aren't familiar is like there's that one email that's been sitting in your inbox that you forgot to respond to. I think I have some of those right this second, actually, that I need to get to after this podcast. You know, it doesn't matter how long it's been on email Debt forgiveness day, even if it was five years ago, you can respond to it, no questions asked. You know, we're just going to. We're going to apologize implicitly by sending it on the day. But ultimately, we're here to right wrongs. And I thought, you know, we could do that with some of our previous takes. You know, this is a judgment free space for us to voice our feelings, to be there for each other as we revisit some of our worst takes of this season, or in my case, potentially even longer than that. I just think there's some things we have to account for, not just to each other, but within ourselves.
- [52:35]
Kaz
We listen, but we don't judge is what we're doing.
- [52:40]
David Shoemaker
We are going to attempt to do that. Will we do it successfully? It remains to be seen.
- [52:45]
Kaz
We're Basically just doing TikTok spawn con here at this point.
- [52:51]
David Shoemaker
Are we? Is that a TikTok thing?
- [52:53]
Justin Varier
You got to put some dope music behind my shit, though.
- [52:55]
Kaz
You guys don't know this?
- [52:56]
David Shoemaker
No. What are you talking about?
- [52:57]
Kaz
You listen, but you don't judge and you just say things that you know. You're in a safe space. You could talk about your partner, for instance, about something that they do that upsets you.
- [53:08]
David Shoemaker
Interesting.
- [53:09]
Justin Varier
And because you've created a safe space, your partner's not going to make your life miserable for the next five days.
- [53:14]
Kaz
That's right. Yeah. That's kind of the bit. Totally. Not to tell them you slept on someone and then it gets haywire. And that's what the kids are up to these days. Not us. Ethically non monogamous. We don't actually have to get into that. It's all above board anyways.
- [53:36]
Justin Varier
My take, forgiveness, to be honest, it's to two people. It's one to Justin Varier, but most importantly, it's to Victor Wembanyama, or as my brother likes to call him, Wembiana.
- [53:51]
David Shoemaker
Not just your brother. A disturbing amount of NBA broadcasters cannot get Victor Wembanyama's name right.
- [53:59]
Justin Varier
I definitely scoffed at the idea that these guys would challenge for a plan, that Wemby would be the kind of guy that's averaging damn near 25, 26 points a game and dominating on the defensive end. It's like, all right, it's the freaking lottery team, the team that stunk up the joint last year. Harry Barnes, Chris Paul. Like, what are we doing a rookie, like, why is this going to be so much better? And I'll be damned if it wasn't, man. Like these guys, I think showed a level before the injury or the blood clot or whatever the ailment, whatever we're calling what happened to Wemby. They're just a way more serious outfit and way further along on the timeline than I gave them credit for being. Somehow I underrated Victor Wembanyama again and I would like to apologize for that. Will I underrate him again next year? Probably. But I still still have to say, man, what they showed I was thoroughly impressed by.
- [54:57]
Kaz
We appreciate that. Unfortunately, it looks like I will still be losing this bet. Luckily, I got spiritually. You won.
- [55:06]
David Shoemaker
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I mean, to be frank, if Victor Webanyama had finished out the season, probably the defensive player of the year, probably first team all NBA. The Spurs, I would think are at least in the mix of the play in. If they don't make it, that would be an incredible result, as was said, for the roster that they have, for the state that that team is in. That certainly above and beyond what I expected. You know, I'm always a little slower coming around on the younger guys too. And I want to see them prove some things. I don't want to give them the benefit of the doubt too quickly, especially when you're playing for lottery teams that don't have a lot to compete for out of the gate, but still trying.
- [55:40]
Justin Varier
To bing pieces into rebuild and all of that stuff.
- [55:43]
David Shoemaker
Of course, what we Benyama and the spurs did this season I thought was incredibly impressive. I thought the. The level of competition clearly stepped up, the level of sophistication stepped up. They look like a more professional outfit, which is something quite impressive to say about a team that's that young.
- [56:00]
Kaz
Well, listen, we on the right side of history forgive you guys, so don't worry about it.
- [56:04]
David Shoemaker
That sounds like judgment.
- [56:05]
Kaz
No, no, we listen, but we don't. Are you guys limiting your tape forgivenesses to this season or are you going beyond that?
- [56:14]
David Shoemaker
We're going beyond that because mine is a longer running.
- [56:18]
Justin Varier
I like that.
- [56:18]
David Shoemaker
A longer running thing that I need to ask forgiveness for.
- [56:21]
Kaz
I think I know where we're going here.
- [56:23]
David Shoemaker
Malik Beasley. I am sorry. I'm sorry to Malik Beasley. You know, for a long time I tried to talk myself into Malik Beasley as a nugget, as a timberwolf, only to see him get picked on defensively, played off the floor. The sterling percentages in the regular season didn't quite pan out. And everything I heard I will say including for people who worked for those teams was you know what, like you can't really trust his game to hold up in that way. I was wrong. They were wrong. Malik Beasley is good, the leader in the league and made threes this season. He has been absolutely steadfast for one of the better teams in the league in the Pistons which that in itself is a crazy sentence to say out loud but shout out to Malik Beasley. He's having a real winning impact for a team that actually matters. Something that I did not know would happen.
- [57:16]
Kaz
Well, here's the thing. I almost want to like like write off your take forgiveness because I don't think you are necessarily wrong about Beasley because I don't think I fundamentally think about him as a different player. I just think that when he's shooting at this level and he's this dependable then he is a good player. It just so happens that that happens practically every other year and you just don't know which of the good Beasley is going to show for them.
- [57:39]
Justin Varier
The Pistons have gotten the absolute odd year spurs championships.
- [57:43]
Kaz
That's right.
- [57:44]
David Shoemaker
But I I think is a skill and has been such a big part of what has been holding him back. And so it's like when you see players who are like that who have a more mercurial game, a little bit of come and go, it's very tempting for people in our position to say oh they're never going to be wholly reliable. I'm not saying Malik Beasley is a perfect player. He's not. He yo yos in and out of the starting lineup for a reason. You know, like I think he's good in both capacities for the Pistons but ultimately he is dependable. He feels dependable in a way that I think transcends the sort of every other year or some games but not others thing that he and a lot of other roles players go through. He is, I think he has put himself into a slightly different class of player than he's ever been before and for that I, I simply given the number of shots I have taken at him over the years have to apologize.
- [58:30]
Justin Varier
So there's the way that he's playing in. There's the knock on effect on a guy's development on his way to being like an a bonafide all star in Cade Cunningham where it's like playing with a dude that is producing that way and therefore attracting that level of attention from the defense opens his game up that you know, just wasn't open before when he was playing with Killian Hayes and all these other cats. And so I think that's an important part too. Just like the Cade of it all. Like this guy has completely shown himself to be everything folks thought he was and he seems to be on his way to more.
- [59:05]
Kaz
I'm glad you brought up the Pistons though, because they are on my list here, if only because I kind of discredited their chances of getting up to the the sixth seed and practically, honestly, they might even have an outside shot at getting into the four at this point they're pretty much neck and neck with the Bucks and the Pacers after one of the most wild late season runs I could remember in recent history, especially considering last year this was by far the worst team in NBA history. Now all of a sudden just looks reborn with like not only good, like they're playing well, but they have such a clear identity of who they are and how they all fit together in a way that's just like a awesome watch. So first of all, they're 12 and three over the past 15, second in the NBA right now. And while I did not get to see the Knicks last night, I did see the Pistons a couple days ago and I think they have everything that you would ever want in like a league pass sort of team. The teams that like we're all gravitating toward maybe not like the, the star studded sort of teams. And I have this list down here where one, the irrational confidence guy, which Tim Hardaway Jr. In a Dallas setting just seemed just like kind of a bonehead that like you always had to tolerate here. He just like pops and so he'll like, he'll dribble for 14 seconds, jack up a three. They get a rebound and he kicks it back out to him and then he shoots it right again and he makes it. And it seems like it's all part of the plan because nobody's getting mad at him for doing that. If anything, they're encouraging him to be his most irrational self. And so, so I love him. They got the crazy guys which by the by the they have a bountiful of just guys who are ready to fight. Isaiah Stewart obviously, first and foremost, Iran Howland basically as the number one backup just ready to jump in whenever that happens.
- [60:47]
David Shoemaker
Hell yeah.
- [60:48]
Kaz
You got the Uber prospect, the Assar Thompson, just the way he's just blankets guys like right off the jump from a game is in like amazing to watch and just being able to explore the depths of his game finally after he had the blood clot scare earlier this season. And then you just have the star coming into his own kind of hitting the next level. I wouldn't say this is like the breakthrough top of the Billboard sort of album for Cade Cunningham, but this is the album before the big album and it's been fun to watch like as he's solidified himself as an All Star, but then getting to the point where he's taken the next step.
- [61:21]
David Shoemaker
Well, the album before the album is obviously our favorites. It's the one where the real ones know and, and we've been out here watching Kate Cunningham, I think, like wanting to see him cross certain thresholds. But you're right, he's been acing every test this season. He looks so comfortable orchestrating, putting all these guys in the right I'm also glad you brought up Beef Stew, because I haven't really sussed out what the sixth man of the Year race looks like. And maybe it's all Cavaliers, frankly. Maybe it's just like DeAndre Hunter or Ty Jerome and that's kind of the end of discussion. Isaiah Stewart has kind of a sneaky case as one of the best reserves in basketball right now, mostly because of his impact on defense and the way he protects the rim and what he's bringing to the table in that regard. Like he, he has stepped out from being like undersized but hustle big who you admire but might not actually be making that big of an impact to. He just contributes to winning basketball on a nightly basis for the Pistons. And it's funny how many like players on their team have slid into that place now. Now that they have a more balanced roster. It's just everything makes more sense for Detroit.
- [62:20]
Kaz
Yeah, my guy Danny Meringue in Portland was showing me the second Spectrum rim protection stats for Isaiah Stewart and it's like you have the clear cut top level where it's, you know, Wemby chat, all the names you'd expect. And then right underneath that is Beef Stew. He's like one of the best rim protectors all of a sudden in the NBA. Plus he has like the versatility offensively to step out to three. Like, yes, he fights a ton of guys and is probably going to miss half of the playoffs because he's trying to knock out DeAndre Hunter or someone. But when he plays, he's been awesome. I also like how Cade Cunningham, like the, the, like the feistiness is almost rubbing off on him to where like.
- [63:01]
Justin Varier
He'S outside, of course, trying to be the Stoicism guy?
- [63:05]
Kaz
Pretty much, yeah. He's the guy you have to protect. Like, he's. He's the one that, like all the offensive linemen are jumping to get into the. In the scrum. Yeah, exactly. All the goons have to protect. But he has a little shit to his game, too. Like, not only just like his game, but also his personality. At one point in the Blazers game, like, the ref called him for a bad foul, so he just like pointed at him and got a text as a result of that. It was kind of like if you've ever seen Zodiac and you see Jake Gyllenhaal at the end of the movie, just go and stare at the guy he thinks did it. It was. It kind of had that vibe, I think. I appreciate it.
- [63:43]
David Shoemaker
I feel like we need some kind of exception around the technicals. Like, I think gesturing, like non obscene division. It should all be allowed. Any pointing, any. Any gesticulating, any dancing, any exaggerated movements or motions, I think should be fair game. Like, come on, you can't point at.
- [64:01]
Justin Varier
A ref flipping the bird or like, you know, one of these.
- [64:05]
David Shoemaker
Sure. Well, clearly the crotch shop is beyond the pale by NBA standards.
- [64:11]
Kaz
I love the crotch job. I think.
- [64:13]
David Shoemaker
I think we need to legislate the crotch shop back into the game. You know it's right. It was, you know, you never know, 20, 25. Lots of. Lots of things are back on the table. Maybe the crotch chop can make a comeback.
- [64:23]
Kaz
I want coordinated celebrations like they do in the NBA. Like, you throw the. The football up and then it explodes and you all fall over. I want that after, like, a cool dunk.
- [64:32]
David Shoemaker
Absolutely. What are we doing? Yeah.
- [64:35]
Kaz
All right, let's wrap it there. I will not be here on Monday. You guys have something special? Special. Heard the schedule we plotted out two weeks ago.
- [64:49]
David Shoemaker
You know what? I don't think we're going to be drafting white American players, but who's to say for certain?
- [64:54]
Justin Varier
No draft, but I'm sure we'll come up with something mind blowingly creative, I promise you.
- [65:00]
David Shoemaker
No, we actually have something good for this one. It will not be a draft. It will not be a mailbag as is Wazonai's tradition.
- [65:06]
Kaz
Oh, my God. We actually do have a plan.
- [65:10]
Justin Varier
We have ideas. We're ideas men.
- [65:13]
David Shoemaker
Yeah.
- [65:13]
Kaz
Okay. I will say, you guys have really stepped it up in this second half. You're like the Pistons when it comes to segments for this podcast.
- [65:20]
David Shoemaker
Thank you.
- [65:21]
Kaz
You're on another level these days.
- [65:24]
David Shoemaker
These days. That's an incredible compliment, Justin. Thank you so much.
- [65:27]
Justin Varier
Thank you.
- [65:28]
Kaz
Well, thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. Thank you to Ben Cruz. These guys will be back with you on Monday. They will talk to you then.