Is the Thunder’s Rep Just Bait? Plus, Who Earned Their Knick-for-Life Stripes? | Group Chat

Summary

The Ringer NBA Show: Group Chat

Episode: Is the Thunder’s Rep Just Bait? Plus, Who Earned Their Knick-for-Life Stripes?
Date: May 28, 2026
Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Mann

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Overview

This episode dives deep into two major storylines shaping the 2026 NBA Playoffs:

• The Oklahoma City Thunder’s growing reputation for “flopping” and foul-baiting, examining whether the criticisms are warranted and how the discourse has taken over NBA media.
• The New York Knicks’ return to the NBA Finals, with a playful segment ranking which players and figures have truly earned their permanent, legendary Knick status.

The hosts bring their signature mix of detailed analysis, dry humor, and media industry self-awareness, while also riffing on the impact of social media, fan perceptions, and the ways narratives harden (or fade) over time.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Thunder “Flop” Narrative: Myth vs. Reality

[03:01 - 32:55]

The Fervor Reaches Casual Fans

• Viral Reputation: The Thunder’s foul-baiting label has permeated beyond hardcore NBA circles, becoming one of the playoffs' hottest topics.
• Rob: “The train has left the station. We have left the planet. I don’t even know what conversation we’re having anymore, but it’s clear that it’s bigger and louder—and, in a lot of cases, more annoying—in totally new ways.” [05:46]

Social Media, AI, and Out-of-control Discourse

• AI-generated clips and altered videos add confusion. Fans debate the authenticity of what they see—a reflection of a broader media mistrust.
• Justin: “We’re getting to the point where…stat[s] cited…in order to dunk on them was hallucinated because they found it just via Google search. And that search had just pulled something that was not real. That’s a whole bees nest…” [08:01]

Is the Criticism Warranted?

• Rob: The Thunder do sell calls, especially SGA, “but this is a very funny time to be having this conversation,” since Game 5 was notably clean, with only one truly “sold” whistle. [09:08]
• The real aggravator: The double standard between the Thunder’s physical defense (getting away with a lot) and their ability to accentuate contact on offense.
• Kyle: “The broader basketball audience is viewing this as a bug…The Thunder are seeing what’s possible—they know the rulebook really well. They’re seeing it as a feature.” [10:20]
• The feverish online anger is partly based on cherry-picking and partly on seeing SGA as an “unstoppable” scorer who also gets the whistle.

Parallels to Past Teams, History’s Smoothing

• The pod connects the Thunder’s criticism to that once leveled at the 2000s Spurs (Ginobili, Bruce Bowen) as “floppers,” suggesting these narratives are sanded down by history.
• Rob: “Even Tim Duncan…for a long time was like, pleading his case Luca-style after every single call. That’s who these guys were in the moment. It’s just we lose some of that to history…” [21:36]

Is This Lasting or Fleeting?

• Hosts debate: Will the “flop” rep stick or fade away?
  • Rob: “I just think we’re going to get softer about this stuff—I think people are going to get used to it or the rules will change…” [30:04]
  • Justin: “I think their perception has almost like metastasized and really hardened.” [30:09]
  • Kyle: It will likely shift from “front of mind anger” to persistent, low-frequency annoyance (see: Harden’s reputation).

Roots in Style, Success, and Personality

• Thunder’s “Spursian” image—not flashy, meticulous, not marketable—leaves a narrative vacuum for villainy to fill.
• SGA's lack of showy emotion adds to the “calculating” vibe.
• Justin: “I also think…we don’t know overall what to make of the Thunder…I almost wonder if we’re like searching around trying to find something. What we found is that like they’re villains who try to get away with it.” [17:15]

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2. Anatomy of Spurs vs. Thunder Series: Depth, Fatigue, and “War of Attrition”

[50:54 - 59:25]

The Thunder’s Long View and Depth Edge

• Justin: “I have to wonder if the Thunder’s main advantage in this series…is the fact that they leverage their depth so successfully…They just seem like the more fit team for the moment to win a war of attrition like this.” [36:53]
• Thunder’s ability to insert new contributors (ex: Jared McCain, Alex Caruso) is contrasted with the Spurs’ fading, hobbled stars.

Defending Wemby, Chipping Away at San Antonio

• The Thunder crowd the paint and neutralize Wemby’s interior presence—not just with size but with timely help from wings and guards.
• Rob: “They are going to be so endlessly disruptive that it’s going to take a mental toll on you. That may manifest in the fourth quarter, it may manifest in the first after you’ve been doing this for four games.” [38:55]

Spurs’ Offense Bogged Down

• Wemby rendered “functionally invisible” for stretches; the absence of reliable counters or creativity from the guards is glaring.
• Guard injuries (Harper’s adductor, Fox’s ankle) limit San Antonio’s ability to pierce OKC’s defensive layers.
• Role players like Keldon Johnson are forced to step up, but it's a big ask.

Series Feel and Expectations

• Hosts note a pattern: Early games were tight, recent blows were decisive—both ways.
• The Thunder’s sophisticated, adaptable system (“Dean Oliver’s four factors basketball”) might not be “sexy,” but it's the foundation for sustained success.
• Justin: “It just feels like the Thunder can mine more [options], where with the Spurs…it’s just…there’s not as many things to go for.” [47:08]

Final Prediction

• Kyle: “I think I said Thunder in six originally…Even if they get Game 6, Thunder at home are probably gonna find a way to get it done.” [56:35]
• Health, home-court, and depth are the keys.

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3. The New York Knicks Make the Finals & Knick-For-Life Rankings

[59:25 - 81:36]

The Vibe of a Knicks Finals Run

• The return to the Finals feels almost underplayed given NY’s market size; the cultural moment is big, but perhaps not as boisterous as in past years.
• Justin on NY fans: “They do have like the spirit of a small market team coursing through them because they’ve just gone through so much emotional turmoil…the past three, four decades…But they’re also amazing fans. Like, it’s similar to Lakers fans…some of the best fans in the world, I would say.” [63:02]
• Kyle: “There’s a ground level, on-the-street thing going on there that’s just…a different basketball experience.” [64:55]

Who Earned Their “Knicks Illuminati” Stripes?

• The hosts create a tongue-in-cheek club, ranking players and personalities by “Knick for Life” status with three tiers:

  1. Overflow/Events tier: Honorable mention/former Knicks, invited back for signings, etc.
  2. Courtside: Front and center, permanent fixtures at games.
  3. MSG Illuminati: Ultra-elite, in the “secret society”—Ewing, Frazier, legends, and (possibly) this season’s heroes. [various]

• Carl Anthony Towns: Consensus that his playoff run likely moves him to the highest tier (“MSG Illuminati”) if not already.

  • Rob: “Kat’s gotta be there. He’s punched his Illuminati ticket already. And certainly if they were to go on to win the championship, that’s a totally different level of acclaim.” [69:32]

• Jalen Brunson: He’s in a category of his own— “Dolan’s soul and heir,” beyond just “Illuminati.”

  • Rob: “We do need a new tier for Jalen Brunson. I’m thinking, like, Jim Dolan’s soul and only heir. Just truly give him the keys to the city. Let him run MSG.” [79:49]

• Josh Hart: His alignment with NY’s spirit and personality—maximum “vibe,” likely to have a post-playing career with the franchise.

  • Justin: “He could even be in my wedding party. He could date whatever daughter I have…” [76:21] (said jokingly)

• Mikal Bridges: Elevated, but maybe just below the highest tier—not the catalyst like others, but essential.

  • Debated courtside vs Illuminati status.

• Landry Shamet: Noted for style and key contributions, considered “courtside” tier.

The Virtue of Incremental, Cohesive Team-Building

• Knicks’ Finals trip is a testament to “sticking with the process,” not just adding superstars.
• Rob: “Getting to an NBA Final is really the accomplishment to me that matters, and that changes a lot about the perspective of a team and the players. It is anointing of a different kind…this is something worth celebrating in and of itself.” [80:32]
• Kyle: “This version of it feels the best…they stuck with this roster build and tweaked things at the margins…” [81:36]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Rob on Thunder’s new reputation: “We have left the planet. I don’t even know what conversation we’re having anymore.” [05:46]
• Kyle: “There are pockets of basketball internet...radicalized...the real Hooper corner...Shay’s the type of player they get riled up about in general, because he scores points, things like that.” [05:46]
• Justin (on SGA's aesthetic): “Shay’s a pretty Duncan-esque, as we’ve talked about–superstar. He’s not like Anthony Edwards...there’s not like a fiery thing...so I almost wonder if we’re like searching around trying to find something.” [17:15]
• Rob (on flopping discourse history): “Bruce Bowen is very much of a piece with this version of the Thunder: intense physical defense, baiting and flopping the other way...” [21:33]
• Kyle (on Thunder’s style): “They play a smart brand of basketball...there’s a lot of stuff to really appreciate that is distracted from by the foul stuff. Shay's isolation style...it's a little oblique...harder to grasp onto.” [19:24]
• Kyle (on Knicks as true fans): "I come from a place very eaten up with basketball...their culture is just different than anywhere. It's different than L.A....there's a ground level, on-the-street thing..." [64:55]
• Justin (on the joy of team-building): “Real, like, the real victory in life is living well.” [81:06]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Thunder Flop Discourse Deep Dive: [03:01 – 32:55]
• Spurs-Thunder Series Analysis: [36:53 – 59:25]
  • Defensive schemes on Wemby, Thunder’s depth, impact of injuries.
• Knicks Finals Run & Legendary Status Game (“Knick Illuminati”): [59:25 – 81:36]
  • Knicks’ cultural moment, ranking current (and old) Knicks for legacy.
• Notable Quotes/Memorable Bits: Sprinkled throughout – especially the “Illuminati” joking [68:12 – 78:49], and recurring playful jabs about clip farms/fake stats [24:20 – 27:15].

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Memorable Moments

• Meta Commentary: Extended riffing on the impact of “clip farms” and engagement-driven content warping perception—bringing humor and self-awareness to media analysis. [24:20 – 27:15]
• Knick-for-Life Stripes Game: Podcast’s tongue-in-cheek “Illuminati” ranking game to decide which players and personalities get “secret society” MSG status.
• Stanley Tucci Fantasizing: Imagining Tucci as Knicks Finals narrator (dry, smart, and whimsical as ever). [49:45 – 50:15]
• Breakdancing Routine Bit: Brief closing joke about who on the pod can do the worm. [82:30+]

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Conclusion

This episode is a quintessential “Group Chat”—blending sharp basketball analysis with media criticism, cultural riffing, and playful in-jokes. It’s particularly useful for listeners looking to understand the storm around the Thunder’s reputation, the importance of depth/play style in the OKC-Spurs series, and the joyous (if slightly surreal) return of the Knicks to basketball’s biggest stage.

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For Further Listening:

• Next week: Full NBA Finals preview and deeper analysis of both the Knicks’ build and their incoming opponent. (“We wanted to hit just quickly, like, some of the characters along the way… next week, we’ll do a big old NBA Finals preview…” [66:16])

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Ads, intros, and outros omitted for clarity and conciseness.

Transcript

[Rob]

Foreign.

[Justin Varier]

Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varier and joining me on this lovely Wednesday afternoon, it's Robini J. Kyle, Manny. How's it going, fellas?

[Kyle]

Sincere. Just looks terrible on you. And enthusiasm. I don't know, something just not right about it.

[Justin Varier]

We were trying to talk about what we're going to talk about at the top and we settled on weather talk, but. But Rob was not a fan.

[Rob]

We did not settle on weather talk. If you're out there listening to this, I tried to protect you. I tried to say, you know what, we need something to actually discuss. But Justin, you thought we could fly by the seat of our pants, our collective pants.

[Justin Varier]

It's like the old. Like whenever you do a weather lead to your story, you know, it's gotten really bad. So it's like it's. It's cold and damp in San Antonio, but it's nice and hot and the discourse is piping over here on Group Chat.

[Rob]

For what it's worth, I do prefer the it's cold and damp in San Antonio to the like Timothy Chalamet pushed around the lettuce in his salad over this brokered interview at this stylish restaurant. Like, at least it's a scene. A scene of a different kind of.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah, Miles Teller. What a dick because he only orders a sandwich. Yeah.

[Kyle]

Really gets you in the. And gets you in the moment. The real description of the. Are you talking about, like Rolling Stone type interviews where they're I'm 35,000ft above the ground with.

[Justin Varier]

With Still Water, the hottest band in America and we're all about to die.

[Rob]

See, this is how I know y' all are journalists. Spike, Almost famous off the dome. Jv, did you have a take on the Miles Teller is a dick or is not a dick or is defensive about being a dick discourse.

[Justin Varier]

I think he's probably a dick, okay. And revealed himself too much and that's what he's upset about. But I don't necessarily fault him for being upset that he had like a lunch with someone and they made like a pretty sweeping generalization about him as a person. So I could see it both ways.

[Rob]

Isn't that the gig? Isn't that what you're signing up for, to be generalized?

[Justin Varier]

Yeah, I guess so. But things just aren't going well for him in general. Isn't he in that Michael movie? He is.

[Rob]

With a very regrettable hair.

[Kyle]

I've heard many people say that was a hit. A stone cold hit, my man. I haven't seen it yet. I suspect it's not a hit. Yeah, that's one of those audience score things. Speaking of which, Mando Grogu saw that. Another one of those audience score a lot of the revisit the, the movie talking thing had some, had some chatters who were just giving me little commentary. They were like, where'd he go? Oh, there he is. Like talking out loud like that during the movie.

[Justin Varier]

Anyway. Yeah.

[Kyle]

Want to go to a break?

[Justin Varier]

Yeah. I feel like we should have done weather talk, but instead you got five minutes of quick letterboxd analysis, if that. Yeah.

[Rob]

Not even pithy enough for letterboxd.

[Justin Varier]

All right, we're gonna talk game six of one of the best series in recent history, Spurs Thunder. We're also going to talk about the Knicks making the NBA finals. But first we're gonna talk about flopping right after this. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. The Conference Finals are here. Think you know how it'll go down? Take your shot with FanDuel and get closer to the action. FanDuel is the best place to bet the team's players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 plus select states 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler, call 1-888-789777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. So I get a text message from one of my cousins like every six months. And it's always just like vaguely about NBA, what's going on there. It's like, so Cav's not about to make it, huh? I was like, yeah, sure, okay. I'm sure you guys get this a lot. It's probably the de facto sports guy in your families. The one recently was about like the Thunder flopping and clearly like he may have watched maybe a game. And it's just like, man, these Thunder guys flop a lot, right? And it was at that point I, I came to the realization perhaps the Thunder's reputation has broken. Containment not only passed like NBA, just zealots onto just sports fans in general to this next layer. Like kind of the mom test where it's like just anybody out there who has any interest in sports whatsoever. It feels like people are hopping mad, Rob. And it's. For a while it felt like a very small group of people. Now it feels just like everybody to the point where it's like, this is the dominant, I would say, storyline of the playoffs, if not for the. Just the Thunder overall.

[Rob]

Yeah, I mean, this is the flip side of the NBA escaping its regular season bubble. We talk all the time about, like, oh, this is when you can make your name. You can become a different kind of star. I think Giannis was one of these cases for years where it was like, very popular, very well known among basketball people. And then all of a sudden he's on the final stage and he's on 60 Minutes, and it's just like exploding in a totally different way. But the same is true for the most negative things happening in the league or the most toxic discussions that are happening around the league. And so I am also getting those messages. I'm also getting like, AI altered flopping videos in which people are now trying to debate and litigate the legality of what, like, computer generated Shay Gilders Alexander is doing. So we have, we have. The train has left the station. We have left the planet. I don't even know what conversation we're having anymore. But it's. It's clear that it's bigger and louder and in a lot of cases, more annoying in totally new ways.

[Kyle]

There are pockets of the basketball Internet that when they get mobilized, radicalized. Well, they're already radicalized because of their belief system in this case. And one of them is like the, the, the real Hooper corner of the Internet, which is basically comes down to how, well, guys create their own shots. And we've seen some of the most, like, incendiary versions of this where James Harden really is one of the guys. I mean, Kobe is one of the, you know, you know, Rob, I know you hate Kobe. You'll probably want to weigh in on this since you don't think he was any good at all. But no, Shay has moved into this group. I think that's part of it. And then you get the other part of it where people just want to assume that basketball in the NBA just has terminal cancer in general. So you get the, the anger of the purity of the game being just like, screwed up. Like any, like anything, there are little nuggets of truth here and there, but I think it's kind of coming together in this just cocktail of. This fizzling cocktail of fury that I, I think Shay just is. In my experience, I think there are a lot of people who maybe wouldn't necessarily just be pure Thunder fans objective down the middle. I like the Thunder and I kind of go by. I think there are a lot of people who just kind of rat, you know, latched on to this cause because Shay's the type of player that they get riled up about in general, because he scores points, things like that. And then there's the other part of it, Rob, like you were saying, like, it's like any other subject that is troublesome. And today it's just AI is making it. It's crazy what they can do. I don't know. You, Justin, might remember this. In the tournament, there was a play where a dude ripped the ball away from a Florida player and it was a kind of an aggressive play and somebody used AI to. To make it look like he punched the guy. And I watched it. I was like, oh my God. Like, so that's just making it worse too. So, yeah, I think there's, there's a lot of stuff going on to make the. The fires burn pretty.

[Justin Varier]

This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market.

[Rob]

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[Justin Varier]

As is their trending mango Yuzu Chantilly cake.

[Kyle]

But if you're on the go, new

[Rob]

365 Strawberry Pretzels make a great sweet stuff. That sounds delicious.

[Justin Varier]

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[Rob]

Low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Pretty hot.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah. I think there are three tiers to this that we could talk through here. And this is kind of like our big conversation we want to get into is like how much this is happening, like what is actually happening and how much it ends up mattering. I think it's like is the rep warranted for the Thunder overall? Not just Shay, but also for the Thunder. I think too it's like what the perception kind of means for the Thunder, for the league at large, etc. And three, I'm glad you guys mentioned this. It's like what is actually real? We're getting to the point where like I've seen multiple people. Tom Haberstra. I think I even saw Pina the other day having to tell somebody that the stat they cited in order to try to dunk on them was hallucinated because they found it just via Google search. And, and that search had just pulled something that was not real. And so like that's a whole bees nest. Like bees nest on top of bees nest. There's like 30 be there that I don't know how to get out of there alive from. But we should start first and foremost about just in general.

[Rob]

Yeah.

[Justin Varier]

The Thunder as follow baiters. Rob, do you think, like, this is warranted?

[Rob]

It is somewhat warranted. It is very funny that we are having this conversation now, though, because, you know, Shay is at the center of this whole debate. Bait. He is in the spotlight as far as what he's willing to exaggerate to get a foul call. I actually thought game five was like one of his most restrained games in a long time. And I went back and watched all of the fouls that he drew in that game. I would say there was like literally one that he actually got a call on that he aggressively sold most of them. He wasn't even falling over the ones in which he was falling over. He was getting like, very obviously fouled. So I'm not saying he's perfectly innocent. I'm saying this is a very funny time to be having this conversation. But we have it because the merits have been consistent enough. I think it really boils down to the double standard between the way that the Thunder accentuate contact and the contact that they get away with defensively. It just whips people into a frenzy. And understandably, if you're a fan of an opposing team, who's that team is trying to play against and win against the Thunder, and you're seeing marginal contact called one way, and you're seeing Lou Dort and Kacen Wallace and Isaiah Hartenstein be really aggressive with your team's best scores, of course you're going to feel away about that. Of course you're going to be like a little bit furious about that.

[Kyle]

Yeah. I mean, I think the broader basketball audience is viewing this as a bug, as something that needs to be fixed. And the Thunder are seeing what's possible. They know the rule book really well. They're seeing it as a feature that is something that. This is the way the game's called, you know, and as we've talked about on previous episodes, it goes on all over the place. Guys are getting hit, guys are big and strong and to. It's. And in a lot of situations, it's not that they didn't get hit. It's just that they want to get. They want to sell the contact that they feel like happened. I mean, the Thunder a lot of times, you know, are very reachy. They're very. They create turnovers. They want to do that. They get in there and they've gone and found a lot of guys who have like, really accurate hand eye coordination on defense. And they create those, those turnovers and that's a big part of what they do. But I think they're just kind of like, I mean, the really egregious one, the one where like Fox comes down next to Shay, that one was going around the Internet and I mean they like lost that game. So I don't really know. And it's, it's just interesting to me because there are ones that you can cherry pick, I feel like on both sides. You know, wimby, you know, has gotten pretty good at this too.

[Rob]

Sure.

[Kyle]

It's just a, I think it's, that's the, that's the crux of it is that this is something that just kind of needs to be fixed. And I don't know that it's going to make people any less mad about the thunder, but man, it's one of the more like charged subjects that I can even remember because I just, the last game was, was pretty egregious. I just felt like that third quarter stretch where they were like five or so calls in a row that was more just the refs were screwing things up.

[Rob]

Yeah.

[Kyle]

Okc. And I just, I just like blandly tweeted out, like, I never tweet about the refs but didn't say anything. And the responses were just ridiculous. I was, it was like, I was like, you all don't even know what I'm talking about. And it's amazing just how ready to be ravenous people are about this subject.

[Justin Varier]

Look at you.

[Rob]

Vague posting and then getting mad that people jump to conclusions, you know?

[Kyle]

Yeah.

[Rob]

You're really something, Kyle, man.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah, I, I, I do think that game, I don't know if it was a flash point because you're right. This has been coming up time and time again and my impulse is often to acknowledge it, but ultimately just kind of move along from it. I think when you do what we do, refereeing feels just more just like context. I know it matters and has an effect, like depending on how someone refs a game on the ultimate outcome. But like, I kind of ascribe it more to like weather and football where it's like if it's snowing, it's going to affect the game. I have no control over that. What do you want me to do? Weather?

[Kyle]

Justin can't help himself. He's one step away from being the old guy. McDonald's looking at you when you walk in the front door.

[Justin Varier]

Man, those pancakes are sick. So that's, that's actually not a bad outcome for my life. But this game did seem like those couple plays really set people off. I think just the non challenge call was one thing. Although I went back and watched it again today and like it didn't seem like he just straight. The ref just straight up missed it. He was walking by him, running by him, but it just didn't seem like he acknowledged Ms. Johnson doing this. Then you have the other side of this where it's like maybe you have to call a timeout before you get the challenge.

[Rob]

You literally do.

[Kyle]

I was gonna say he was outside procedure. It's just, I think people were mad because they just shouldn't have had to be in a situation, situation like that because of the obviousness.

[Justin Varier]

And how many times if you were to go back, like how many times have. Have coaches got away with just doing the challenge call as opposed to the. The. The. The teed into the circle.

[Kyle]

It's fair. It's fair sort of thing.

[Justin Varier]

Like, so like I could see that seems like a pretty, just blatant mistake. I think the fact that it was bracketed by the goal 10 call from Kayson Wallace 1 and huge. Just the visuals of Tony Brothers like pointing at his wrist to call a foul on Dort. Like he actually called the foul on Dort so it's not like he was getting him off, but like they had a real like interplay. Like it was like a cutesy sort of moment between them. I think only like added fuel to that fire.

[Rob]

Yeah, I thought gamefi was like pretty poorly officiated. And Kyle, you mentioned it that third quarter especially.

[Kyle]

Oh really, Dr. Yeah. Okay. Well, no, no, no, but this is the thing.

[Rob]

It's like I thought it was poorly officiated, but that's a different conversation than like, oh, OKC is flopping for these calls. Like the things that went their way were primarily other borderline bad and miss calls. And so. And yet even though that is true, it still feeds into the fervor of this conversation. Like that is the stage that we've reached with all this where truth is kind of marginal. It's all about the impressionistic outcome of these games and these events. And right or wrong, whatever you may feel is grounded or fair, like fans are coming away from these games feeling like the Thunder have an unfair advantage given the way the game is being officiated. And I think this has been my big takeaway from all of this stuff is like basketball fans have. Have a lot of latitude for great defenses to defend physically. Right. If you're the bad boy Pistons, if you're the grit and grunt grizzlies like, they. They, like we people want to see physical, assertive defense. They just don't want to see it when that same team on the other side of the ball feels like it's getting away with something. And this is where it's like, all of the discourse about physicality and all the discourse that's been brewing for, like, 10 plus years about James Harden and foul baiting and grifting and like, you know, bringing your arms up through the contact, all of it is coalescing to me around Shea. And he is like, such a fascinating nexus point for this conversation in a bunch of different ways. For one, he has the ball in his hands a ton. He drives more than almost anybody else in the sport. And so even if you were playing 100% earnestly all the time in terms of negotiating contact, he would still get a lot of free throws. But he also moves so counterintuitively in a way that is just like, it looks odd when he does get bumped off his spot. And then I think the most crucial part of this that really sets people off is he has weaponized the, like, arm bar push off in a way that almost no one else in the modern game has. And so then it creates the space where he is allowed. And offensive players around the league right now are allowed to just bludgeon defenders with that off arm and completely shove them away. And then when they try to close the space to play actual defense, Shay or the shooter or whoever else will fall or they'll get in their landing space and it'll be a flagrant. Like, it is an unnavigable balance that we're putting defensive players in right now. And, like, that part has to change. Whatever you may think of all this,

[Justin Varier]

see, I think it's Shea as patient zero. You're right. And the armbar thing seems to have been widespread. I almost wonder if people saw Shea getting away with it and just kind of accelerated. I almost. I almost wonder where, like, we'll get to the off season. And people are talking about it as trying to legislate it out. I think it's that. But I also think it's being exposed to the rest of the team doing it, that the fact that it's more of a widespread thunder thing. And I think, like, it also plays into their best traits. Whereas, like, you can see because of their meticulous culture and how dedicated they are to the finer details of things, the point where that's kind of become their perception, their identity to the league at large. They're kind of the nerds who get everything right, but ultimately they get everything right and they're very good as a result of that. You could see them being the team actually drilling this in and trying to get guys to do things. So when Chet does it, it's like, oh man, you should be better than that. Or you see McCain nail someone in the face. Harper, I believe it was. And then like try to draw a foul, like a few seconds later. It feels like it's a team wide thing and that's one part of it. I also think, like, we don't know overall what to make of the Thunder. Like, I don't think that they have a very clear identity if you're just casual sports fan. I think they're a very good successful team. I think Shea is a very good successful player, obviously two time mvp, but they don't really inspire anything or there isn't like that like one quality you could latch on to. Shay's a pretty Duncan S, as we've talked about in the past, superstar. He's not like Anthony Edwards. He's not like excitable. He's not like, there's not like a fiery thing that you should just like, oh, that's that guy. And so I almost wonder if we're like searching around trying to find something. What we found is that like they're villains who try to get away with it, you know, where they're twisting their mustaches trying to just get over on everybody else. And so I almost wonder if it's like we filled the space with something. It just so happened to be something that just like really reflects poorly upon them and then almost as a result, the NBA because of how prominent they are.

[Rob]

Yeah. Other than this, what do you think the casual sports fan who is not tuning in for a ton of the regular NBA season, like, what do they actually know about the Thunder? What else would they latch onto in that space? Like, Shay is like, well, kind of well known, but not mega well known. Not like globally iconically well known in the way that a LeBron or a Steph would be. I mean, I, I think there's probably a significant number of sports fans who like their greatest familiarity with the threat. Thunder is like what a pro wants via commercials. Like otherwise, like where, like if, if you know college basketball, then you've seen some of these gu. Maybe you have a general sense that they're very successful and certainly that they won the title. But it is odd that for a team that's been this good already for this long that they don't have these like clear signifiers of identity that, that do transcend our kind of discourse around the league. That's not just for people who are absolutely living and dying with this stuff every day, but that might actually be translatable to a broader audience.

[Kyle]

I think the Spursian thing that you hit on is pretty key because if you think about at the core of this, like how they go about their business, how they curate the. Their people, how they kind of circle the wagons and try to control. They don't have a lot of high kind of drama guys. Granted, the spurs over the years would mix in Stephen Jackson or whatever it was just to kind of have good teams. But you know, if you look at the way that the, the Thunder handle their business, I, I think that that's. There are a lot of parallels. You know, you mentioned Duncan and, and I think, I think there's something to that in talking to just like what it is about them that like isn't super maybe marketable to the, the, you know, the, the broader audience, the broader part of the world. I mentioned how, you know that there is like the real Hooper sort of subscription to the way that Shay plays, but I don't know that that is. Jordan is like, you know, the all time example of that. You know, Kobe emulated it and there was like a gracefulness and a flying around and an above the rim kind of quality of the way he did a lot of that stuff that had kind of. There was. There was a beauty and form thing that really appealed and was super marketable and honestly, you know, the most marketable athlete of all. I think with Shea, it's just they're not playing. They play a smart brand of basketball. They play. If you, if you watch like last night, there were a lot of really pretty basketball sequences and if you lean in and look at the, at the details of their execution and stuff, there's a lot of stuff to really appreciate that distracts, that is distracted from by the foul stuff. But I think that we talked a little bit about this, that Shay's isolation style, since it starts with him, it stays with him for so long. It's really dependent on him creating his, his offense and stuff like that. I think at the heart of it maybe that is just a little harder to grasp onto. You know, it's just like. It's not like a pop song that you can snap your finger to, you know, immediately. It's just, it's a little oblique in a way that maybe I think is harder and, and he's really quiet. I think that's the other part for sure. When it back to the spurs part

[Rob]

on that spurs front, I do think it's been kind of lost at time that like in that moment, I would say especially like the mid to late 2000s, the spurs had a rampant reputation of being floppers like Manu Ginobi. This was a huge part of the conversation.

[Kyle]

Super reminiscent, super ruminant and like it's

[Rob]

all gotten kind of sanded down. And I would say especially like the beautiful game version of the spurs that a lot of younger fans will be more familiar with than the earlier models. But like Bruce Bowen is very much of a piece with this version of the Thunder, right? Like incredibly intense physical defense and then like baiting and flopping and drawing charges the other way. So it's like even Tim Duncan, for as like revered and silent and kind of like professional as his reputation is now for a long time was like pleading his case Luca style after every single call, like, this is who these guys were in the moment. It's just we lose some of that to history and they become this like, again, like very smoothed out, iconic version of what the actual reality was. And I wouldn't be surprised if some version of that happens with the Thunder over time too.

[Kyle]

I think you're right that it's been sanded down because there was gigantic, these fucking guys energy back then when it was like every year you were just like, God, they're still like, they're. How are they? What? You know, they remember. They were the, they were the wet blanket on everybody's favorite, you know, thing. Everybody's favorite story of 2000, was it six or seven when the, the, you know, this, the Steve Nash spurs, they knock him out. It was just like, God, Spurs. You know, I think there's just a lot of similarity there and I don't know that. I don't really know if I've heard that talked about a thon to be honest.

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[Justin Varier]

I think that dovetails nicely with kind of where we are as a media culture, too. Like, I made a reference the other day about, like, the Clippers. Not the team, the Clipper, but like the social media Clippers and how it's like, solely taking over the world. Then there's that New York magazine piece, and now I'm just at the point where it's just like, are. Is geese like a popular band? Do they actually exist? Are they AI like, it really snowballed very quickly to. I'm really questioning everything that's happening. Yeah.

[Rob]

You're telling me when you brought that up, you hadn't already read the piece? That story had been out?

[Justin Varier]

No, it hadn't. It was like a day or two before. Unless are you getting New York magazine to your. To your place or something like that? Maybe you're like, ahead of the game.

[Rob]

It had already gone like a full round or two around the, you know, the controversy train.

[Justin Varier]

Like, you're not giving me enough credit for how on the ball I am when it comes to Clippers, my friend.

[Rob]

I think you have your finger on the pulse of a lot of things, but, like, looks maxing clipping is maybe not one of them.

[Kyle]

Yeah, Justin's reading his HubSpot email newsletter and coming in here and rattling it off as if it's.

[Justin Varier]

No, I brought it up. I don't know how much I could say about this, but I brought up because there's actually a sports podcast that you guys would know about that. Had just used clippers to their success in order to inflate their numbers.

[Rob]

I think why I definitely need to talk about this.

[Justin Varier]

We could talk about that off air,

[Kyle]

but that's why I brought name names.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah. But I'm at the point now where I am starting to question everything that's happened at the very least. And I think we are keenly aware of this being in the podcast field. Like things are being processed almost entirely via clips anymore. We've gone from nobody reads anymore so we'll get the aggregation and only read that to like nobody will listen to a podcast. We only listen to the 30 minute clips. We'll see scrolling through your phone, whatever. And I do think if you're thinking about the Thunder, a team that you will be seeing if you're an NBA, Twitter or whatever all the time, like what is the most marketable like thing that's going to like feed clips and engagement and all this other stuff in the engagement economy? It's like it's probably this. It isn't really just like some spectacular plays. Like there's. They do a lot of that stuff. Shay absolutely peters all the time. But like the thing that I think about constantly that would get the most like emotional engagement and excitement, it's probably this. It's probably preying on the fact that like they seem to be manufacturing their way to success. And so like I think we have to reconcile. It sounds like very heady and almost like 2001 in a lot of ways. But like I do think like this is probably driven to a large degree by people who are purely trying to cast them as something in order to get engagement in order to like make money off of that. Because of ways that I wish I knew because I would love a piece of that action.

[Rob]

Maybe there's still time for you and for us to really hit it big on the clipping market. But just, just to be clear, when you're saying like this idea that they are manufacturing their success, that's the impression given by these clip farms, right? That's not you saying that.

[Justin Varier]

Yes. Just like if you only watch them in 20 minute bites, you're probably only seeing them flopping their way to something or may be flopping their way or a fake flopping made out of AI. So it looks like there's more contact than there was.

[Rob]

I, I do think too like we're only having this conversation because they're an awesome team and I think it comes from yes, the idea that they are grifting their Way to the Top is certainly an impression that people have, but there's also, even for the people who are watching all of these games, every second of these games, and seeing the Thunder in action, if you have a rooting interest in the other team, it's coming from the frustration of, like, this is a hard team to beat. And then all of this on top of it, and it's like, you know, that the third quarter, fourth quarter run is coming, and yet they still get all of these benefits of the doubt, or at least real or perceived in other ways. And it's like that combination, I think, really just intensifies the feelings that people have when it's. You have. You're seeing something in front of you that looks wrong or looks like an injustice, coupled with your real, actual sense of, like, hopelessness at your team beating this team, you can, you can see how one would just like, absolutely feed the fire of the other.

[Kyle]

Yeah. I mean, it can feel a little bit irrational when you're in. In the moment that the hopelessness. But when you zoom out, we don't. We have gone into this about the way that they've been able to be so dominant with their talent acquisition. It's just kind of like it's really not that surprising that they continue to come in waves and they have all this handler depth that the spurs don't have, that they can Sustain losing an A.J. mitchell and a Jalen Williams instead of still go have a Jared McCain that they just. They are very smart and they're a few steps ahead on a lot of different fronts. But I think in the basketball sense, when you're just talking about, you know, combining the, the lack of marketability of the isolation thing that I was just describing with the fact that they very tediously want to win the possession game. Degnalt has said it repeatedly. He's like, you know, we want to win the turnover margin, we want to win the rebounding margin, and we want to get to the free throw line and those things, you know, that's just kind of. It's not the sexiest version of basketball. You know, I don't know that that's going to charge up, you know, little Timmy that's trying to get into the sport and he's shooting in his driveway. It's like, man, I'm so excited to see if they win, you know, the, the deflection margin in this game or how many times they get to the foul line. It's just like, it's. It's smart and that's the Thing, it's, it's not sexy.

[Rob]

But like the things you just described, like, that's Dean Oliver. Four factors basketball. Like it is the crux of what drives winning in professional sports. And so yeah, it may not be sexy. Maybe over time it will become more sexy as there is a myth, like a mythology that grows around a version of the Thunder that, that repeats or continues to win or a version of Shade that just like keeps doing this in terms of putting up points over and over and over. I. I just think we're going to get softer about this stuff. I think people are going to get used to it or the rules will change and ultimately people are going to

[Justin Varier]

turn like I think positively.

[Rob]

I think the fervor of this conversation

[Justin Varier]

cannot last it like, I disagree. I think people are going to continue to sour and if anything, I think their perception has almost like metastasized and has really hardened. And if anything, like, I think the spurs provide a nice little counter. We'll see. Because it's funny because we talk about how Game 5 is like the worst possible like scenario for this. Wemby literally sent the goons out there after Jared McCain.

[Kyle]

Okay, allegedly. Not

[Justin Varier]

allegedly, I guess, but Plumly also got hit with a flagrant one after the fact this morning.

[Kyle]

And so they were really interesting that you said hardened. You use that word. Rob, I'm curious though. How do you think this is going to come about? That this is going to swing Positive. I want to hear your three step plan.

[Rob]

It's. It doesn't require three steps. It requires two steps, which is one we are here now, two steps in far in the future. People get bored of this stuff and stop talking about it. Like I really do think a lot of this stuff just fizzles out. When you think about the biggest controversies in the NBA over the last 20 years, how many do people really still feel so intensely about?

[Justin Varier]

I think you're right that people will get bored of it, but I don't know if people will move off of it. And the fact that the Thunder are going to probably be so prominent only dredges it back up. In these sorts of times. I have a hard time thinking that people will think differently of them.

[Kyle]

It might shift from I'm super pissed and this is like front of mind to just like G. That's probably where it'll end up in that sense, if that is. I think it's the difference between hitting the brakes and letting off the gas. I think probably Rob, you know, but you know, like harden people still feel that way it's just they kind of got tired of talking about it with.

[Rob]

His history is just so long. Like, Michael Jordan was the petulant child once, and then he became like. So no one could possibly, like, ever disparage him. Like, I've.

[Justin Varier]

I think your Spurs. I think your spurs comp is dead on. And if I'm thinking back on it, the reason why the spurs changed from what you're describing to some, to a team that. Where you appreciate the beauty of the basketball and it was a little bit more light was when LeBron became the villain in Miami and they were the counter to that. So perhaps something like that could happen. Maybe they win just so much that, like, they're just impervious to any sort of criticism. But I don't know, when something gets that big, people just want to knock it down even more. That's why we have literally the crying Jordan meme is that like, he was just so successful and became so successful. It's like anything that pierced that was like where we found the counter. And so it's going to take something like that.

[Rob]

Honestly, I really. I think that would certainly help. I don't even think it's going to take that. We were just talking about how people's attention span can't even last the full extent of one podcast. And you think they're going to go five years feeling this way? I just, I don't believe that to be true of human nature, to say nothing of the thunder.

[Kyle]

The arc of Shay is so interesting to me because, you know, I was dialed in on this pretty early and this isn't like a hipster thing. It just mattered of being like proximity. I was here. Obviously everybody knows K, Kentucky, Kyle, whatever it is, all that, that hyperbole, whatever it is caricature of myself. But like, Shay was here and I watched him from moment one and he had a really esthetically nice game and I think he still does. It's just this has really. It's interesting how Shay's irregular movements and his scoops and his long, high glass finishes and things like that. It was just like. Like there would be some just, you know, like your reaction to a nice, like, jazz lick kind of thing. It was like, damn, that was sweet. And it's really morphed over time in a way where I. And maybe this is. He didn't have this stuff in his game when he was playing here. He didn't have a lot of the herky jerky pull up from two stuff. And I guess as he's incorporated that and balanced it out. It's just become something that's just kind of like swallowed the. The entire talking point about him, the conversation.

[Justin Varier]

He just needs little Timmy's like a army of them to come and just shape his entire narrative with just a bunch of clips. $5 a pop. You get me 50, 000 views of me just looking like a cool guy. I'll do that. Honestly, $5 a pop, you'll be somebody's clipper. No, I mean I need the Clippers.

[Rob]

Oh. Oh, you're just putting an offer out on Fiverr right now to get. There's some farm chat.

[Kyle]

There's some farm out there that'll take you up on that. Justin, you're not too. Listen, you're not too much of a lost cause.

[Justin Varier]

Hell yeah. Then $5 for anybody.

[Kyle]

Would that motivate you?

[Justin Varier]

I'm trying to. I'm trying to take over the world, baby.

[Rob]

I now I really need to know who this other podcast is that you were talking about. I can't believe Howard Beck would do that with real ones where he would just really put, really underhandedly try to boost the numbers like that.

[Kyle]

Talk about a grifter. Howard Beck. Notorious.

[Justin Varier]

All right, why don't we take a quick break? We come back, we need to talk about what happened in the previous game and what it means for game six. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. FanDuel is giving you better payouts on same game parlays all NBA playoffs long. With more ways to build and more value every time you play. You could stack your picks your way for every game, every matchup and every moment. From spreads to player points to threes and more. Build it all into one same game parlay and go for bigger payouts. So if you're betting same game parlays this NBA postseason, bet them on FanDuel. More options, better payouts, all NBA playoffs long. So we're looking ahead to the next matchup between the Thunders and the Spurs. So we're talking spurs at home. They're giving three and a half points. Tough one. I ultimately think the Thunder win the series, but I like the spurs bouncing back back in game six. They're at home. Seems like that matters. Seems like the role players play better there. Also three and a half. I don't think that matters the margin at all because some of the final scores have been quite large in terms of margin. So just give me the team. I think who's going to win and that's the spurs minus three and a half in game six. Head to FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to get started. FanDuel official partner of the NBA player game 21 plus select states 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming gambling problem call 1-800-Gambler, call 1-888-678-97777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut all right, we talked about kind of the long view with the Thunder, how they might be around here for a while. I kind of feel like this series is coming down to perhaps how the Thunder have taken the long view overall in this series as opposed to perhaps the spurs, who in that fourth quarter last night it just felt like they ran out of gas. Part of it, I think it was they spiraled out after the no call, the no challenge call that they didn't get. Like Vassell had the foul quickly and then it was a 10 point game going into the fourth quarter. I think the game was still hanging in the balance, but at no point did I think that the spurs were ever going to come back in. That felt like Wemby just physically was just spent and it felt like overall the team just like didn't have anything in order to come back from it. I have to Wonder if the Thunder's main advantage in this series, especially with two of their primary creators out in JDub and AJ Mitchell, is the fact that they leverage their depth so successfully. And I almost wonder if like they've lost a couple battles along the way. But Rob, if they're winning the war overall because they just seem like the more fit team for the moment to win a war of attrition like this.

[Rob]

Yeah, I mean they are overwhelming over any long enough timeline and they do need some things to go their way.

[Justin Varier]

Right.

[Rob]

They need a three point shooting night like this, especially after the cold one in game four. They need someone to come in off the bench or in this case to be started like Jared McCain did and just be like an absolute flamethrower. A critical stretch of the game. I, I do. I saw what you saw too in terms of the spurs kind of petering out. But I think that may fast forward past like the fact that for the first two quarters of this game Victor Wenyama was like functionally invisible. And there are many reasons why that's true. I would say the biggest is the Thunder defense did an incredible job of like crowding him within, like strangling out every bit of space in the paint and around the basket for Wemby, stopping him from getting any momentum towards the basket Stopping him from establishing post position at all or getting any of his roles that were so easy for him in Game one. And they did it without, like, a lot of size in a lot of cases. You know, Isaiah Hartenstein's out there, Chet's out there, Jalen Williams is out there. It's not like they don't have bigs. But some of the plays that were really disruptive for Wemby were like Casen Wallace digging down at the exact right time when Wemby would try to spin and make something happen. And all of a sudden he's thrown off his rhythm. The play goes kaput. Like everything goes, goes to shit. The Thunders is really good at doing stuff like that. And it's one reason why you can't count them out of any series or any game or any stretch. Like that is going to be the baseline expectation for Oklahoma City basketball is like, they are going to be so endlessly disruptive that it's going to take a mental toll on you. And that may manifest in the fourth quarter. It may manifest in the first after you've been doing this for four games.

[Kyle]

And it may manifest over the course of five games. There are like the, in the moment things that the spurs can do or the Thunder can do, and then they're the things over the course of the series that we're seeing unfold. And you know, whenever you say, oh, Wimby was tired, that would feel like a, like, hand wave thing for it. It would. Could be taken as a diminishment of like, what the Thunder were able to do, but they're responsible for that. And I think that's the thing is, like, you know, you start to see Wimby go from the thing that he would revert to or settle on. I know Kirk talked a lot about this early in the year when he was talking about his shot chart in the past couple years as opposed to this year. It's just that we started to see Wimby hunting it a little bit, facing up, shooting the ball. And when Wimy's hunting it a little bit, I'm. I'm like, oh, no. You know, it's like it's fake, fake, fake terror where I'm like, maybe those go in. But as we've talked about, there's a huge difference between him getting to the rim a few times and then hitting a three where you're just like, Jesus Christ. But when he's, when he is settling a lot, it's a, It's a way more favorable game to be Playing, because as good of a shooter as he is, he's not elite, as we've said. But I think they did a really good job in the ways that you talked about Rob, you know, keeping him out of the paint. He just looks really tired. He's not able to get there. I went and looked this up. You know, whenever Wimy's paint touches go under 20 per game, which it's kind of been like clockwork in games two and three. In both games, he only got 12 paint touches with the ball, and then in game five, he got 17. And all three of those were losses. Anytime he got above 20, okay, lost the game, that was really, they. And there were some, you know, areas where, in the details, they were good about that. Hartenstein was, was dominant in the, you know, we're talking about the live ball events in the game. You know, whether it's getting a rebound, a deflection, whatever it is, he was dominant, but he did a really good job of. And people used to play Kareem like this, where with Kareem, it was about, don't let Kareem go in a straight line towards the rim, making his initial move, because you don't want Kareem with momentum coming over your back, getting an offensive rebound. And if you watch Hartenstein did a really good job of, like, forcing Wimy away towards the baseline, and then he's not in position to go get offensive rebounds. So I think all of those things small and large kind of played took the wind out of their sails on offense. There's a lot more we can get to, but that was a big one.

[Justin Varier]

Sure. Yeah. I, I, I'm glad you brought up Kareem there, because the one thing I was wanting from Wemby in this one was something in that middle game that he could go to where, if he wasn't going to get right at the basket, like, where is that next level to, to basically having a counter to that, where it's like a Isaiah Hartenstein push shot or like a little floater range shot or perhaps even a sky hook in order to perhaps take advantage of that. I mean, literally, the skyhook would probably work for him, considering that nobody's gonna ever be able to contest that. But overall, this was like, one of the first games I was left wanting of Wemby not being, like, being able to hit that 100 elite level of you have the counter to everything that throws out there. If they're going to physically take you out of the game, like, what's the next thing you Go to. Yeah, there wasn't anything like beyond the basket. So we only had three makes at the basket. There wasn't anything in that middle range. And also felt like there wasn't. He wasn't like dissecting anybody with the way he was processing or thinking things. That's also like a next level he can get to. If anything, it felt like he was taken out of the, like, the mental game to the point where he didn't do reporters after the fact. Seemed like he was really shaken to the point where he did say something to Plumlee and Biomba before they got on the court. And so it felt like he was a 20 something. Still figuring things out. Yeah. Which is saying something. It took this long to get there, but, like, for the first time I'm like, damn, this might be the last hurdle. And I don't know if he can solve for that.

[Rob]

Yeah. I think with where his game is, most of the cerebral aspects of his play are going to be on defense. Right. Like, that's where he's affecting the game the most. It's where he can impose his will the most and most broadly. And you can see those Isaiah Hardenstein push shots are like, so slowly but surely tugging Wemby out of his preferred positions deeper into the paint and with that space. Like, I don't think it's an accident that the Thunder wedge Wemby out from the rim a little bit. And in particular, Alex Caruso and Kayson Wallace all become like really activated drivers. Right. Like, they are all. The driving kick engine of who the Thunder are is suddenly put into a higher gear. They're now kicking out into better, cleaner threes. Their role players are hitting those shots. It just feels more like their usual offense as a result. I. And to the extent that he can do a cerebral thing on offense or like really move chess pieces that force the Thunder to respond, it is a tandem activity. Like, he doesn't have the ball in his hands. And so the cerebral aspect of his game has to be linked to Stefan Castle, has to be linked to de' Aaron Fox, who is, I mean, just playing through excruciating pain pretty clearly with that ankle. Like, he is like grimacing and wincing every time he tries to make an aggressive move. And Dylan Harper, I thought played his most invisible game of this entire playoff run so far was just phased out of large portions of it, especially on offense. And so he's reliant on those guys to make those entry passes to get him those touches to make like, pinpoint, precise plays through the most aggressive defense in the league to get him the ball where he needs it. There's some ways in which he has control over that, and we can talk about those and how he can be more aggressive and where he can be looking for his offense a little bit more. But he's also just going to be dependent on these guards to be equally as cerebral as he is for any of that stuff to work. Breaking down a defense of this level.

[Kyle]

Yeah, I mean, he can roll and go into the pain all he wants, but if the guards aren't, you know, the guards are just really bad. I mean, like, we had this written down here. I mean, between, let's see, Vassell, Fox, Wimy and harper combined for 11 of 46. So, you know, just under 24 from the field. But, you know, Harper, Harper with the adductor thing on the inside of his legs, I'm sure he's just not able to sort of do a lot of the, like, lunging, lateral stuff that he normally likes to do. Fox just doesn't have the same kind of violent separation that he depends on. And that is not a place you want to be when you're being guarded by the OKC defenders. You mentioned something, though, on the other side, on all, you know, OKC's side of the ball, I don't think that Wimy looks as rangy and quick defensively right now. There are a couple where you.

[Justin Varier]

He.

[Kyle]

He wasn't getting to things that I was like. He kind of was earlier in the playoffs or earlier in this series, even something OKC is doing. You'll hear people talk about Nashing, which is like. Not like. Not like gn, but just Steve Nash, where it's not purely driving kick. It's where you keep your drivel alive to the. Get the. The. The shot blocker's head on the other side of the rim, basically so that he isn't able to sort of like rotate quickly. You're just moving him and then it. So it's sort of like a. An idea that you don't just like linear at the end of your drive, pass it at the end of it. You keep it alive and then move. And I think they have been able to successfully move him and allow their driving game to work.

[Rob]

So it's.

[Kyle]

It's a type of driving kick. But I just wanted to add that on that. They've had a lot of success with that.

[Justin Varier]

I think I feel the same way, though, that I kind of felt about the Thunder after the previous game, where it's just like one team just looks overmatched. And it has been a weird like where the first two games have been like pretty battles going to the end and then the past three have been pretty decisive. And so I'm a little cautious about being overreactive. But I think you guys are right, especially about some of the guard play. Harper I have down here, like he had five field goals made in game two. He's had five since. And if they don't have that, if Fox is going to look pedestrian, if he's going to be hobbled. I do wonder if like if this is just a big old battle where we're just dealing with who's going to be the most healthy. I have to worry about the spurs not having that because it just feels like the Thunder have more moves and I think part of that was McCain just starting in his first start looking great and just that guy's energy just seems to buoy them in particular moments. I loved how the fact that like even after getting like crushed by by the two Bash Bros at the end of the game, he like had a good spirit about it. And then Caruso basically being able to turn to your like best perimeter defender who you don't ask a lot of all of a sudden just handling the ball more. He was third in usage rate in that game. And just like, oh, we could just toggle these guys on. It's just like these aren't just regular 3 and D role players. Like they just have so many more wrinkles. And so I do wonder, Rob, if like if it comes down to this, like it just feels like the Thunder can mine more where it's like what with the spurs it's just like, I don't know, Keldon Johnson just like feels like they're helping off him even more. There's just not as many things to go for because they're top level is so talented.

[Rob]

Yeah, this was a lot of Keldon Johnson, especially down the stretch. It's like he's.

[Kyle]

I think we need more Keldon.

[Rob]

I mean maybe given the injury. That's true. But that's a bad state of affairs if the answer is we need more Keldon Johnson.

[Kyle]

Well, he was. Well, I was just going to say he was like one of the lone bright spots in the game and they, they have Barnes in there. Yeah, we know. Maybe it's some. You just roll the dice and hope that Carter Bryant can not kill you with like mental mistakes. That's one thing you can, you need is physicality in there. That. But another thing too that we haven't really touched on is the fact that, I mean, they're just mercilessly attacking Fox. And Champagne, Champagne, bless his heart. Man, you gotta be a little less obvious with your illegal screens. Those were just backbreakers, critical times. You know, we talked about the, the spurs or we talked about the Thunder with their, their selling calls. It was just the spurs had a lot of self inflicted errors in this game that if they clean those up. You hate to oversimplify and just say they need guys to play better. But Justin, I think you're right about like this is probably. If you, you, I think you can oversimplify and just say that they are not in the position to sustain the loss of a, even to have a hobbled Fox, you know, having. Having Jared McCain out there to do some world class spackling, which is insult to injury that, that the spurs can't survive. And it speaks to OKC's depth and

[Rob]

not just world class spackling. But Justin, I think you're right about the spirit that Jared McCain plays with. Like, there is a, there's an effervescence to him that is really important to the Thunder that brings like the juice of a run, that brings a different kind of energy. Like he has an unusual cadence to his game and clearly is really explosive, but also just like gives them an emotional lift in a way that like, to be totally honest, Keldon Johnson does a version of that too. Like he comes in and gives them a different kind of energy than the rest of the lineup does. But the reason that San Antonio was a great regular season matchup for okc, that they look so dangerous in the series is that their three guards allowed them the precision to pierce through all of this, like layered, intense defensive coverage. And if these guys are playing in the way that they did in Game five, if they're only physically capable of that, I just think it's going to be a really tough proposition to really break the Thunder down with any consistency on defense or on offense rather.

[Justin Varier]

I like how we're talking about McCain as if he's like a dish that Stanley Tucci is preparing. It's a lot of, a lot of lemon spritz going on here, Stanley.

[Rob]

See, you're trying to spend $5 a piece on cliff farms. I'm trying to like put all that money in the piggy bank so we can get Tucci for one episode to just like describe. So you know, our budgets are being spent differently, but we'll see who comes out on top.

[Justin Varier]

Is he a Knicks fan?

[Rob]

I Don't. I actually don't know if he has a team or not.

[Justin Varier]

Okay, we'll look at.

[Rob]

He's a pal Bankero fan.

[Kyle]

I would do a Nick. A Stanley Tucci pregame. You know, set the stage. Narrative thing, I think would be pretty good. He. He'd bring some stillness to it. Get your. Make the hair on your arm stand up. I could see that.

[Justin Varier]

Sure. We have that in the budget. Yeah.

[Rob]

And if not, we have AI Stanley Tucci now. Don't even worry about it.

[Kyle]

Oh, yeah, There we go. There we go. Spanley Tucci. Yeah.

[Justin Varier]

If the series ended after last night's game, does Caruso win mvp?

[Rob]

What? I mean, Crusoe's great. And look, there are minutes where he comes in and it's like he was the best player on the floor for five straight minutes. She had 32 and nine in that game in a huge.

[Kyle]

Not super efficient. I'll say not super efficient.

[Rob]

I'm gonna be honest. I don't care how efficient it was. Like, he. They needed him to be assertive in a way coming off of game four. That it was going to lead to some of this and maybe not the peak of efficiency, but completely essential in what he was doing.

[Kyle]

This is a little. This is one of those, like, granular, dorky things to bring up. But I feel like Shay has had some success with not so much hopping backwards, but bumping and moving to his left. Like moving side to side, which. And it's. He's had some success, like evading Wimby with that shot. He did it on the baseline on one. I will say too. Harper has been this weird back and forth where he had some incred. He had one sequence where he was incredible. Garden Shay. I don't know if that Shay was just trying to pick on him and just kept running into a wall. But yeah, if Shade. It would definitely be like an Iggy winning over Steph type thing. If. If Caruso want.

[Rob]

Crusoe will not win. But Caruso, he's awesome. He will not win Crusoe.

[Justin Varier]

I saw. I saw a lot of momentum from actual voters for Caruso. Name names.

[Rob]

Who are we talking about?

[Justin Varier]

What do you want me to sell people? I really want to get into the dirt. You're like a Dumois over here for NBA discourse.

[Rob]

I just think if you put a ballot in someone's hands for conference finals mvp. Yes. I love Alex Caruso. And I'm sure there are people who would say they would vote for him on a podcast. I will. I want to see the Ballots. She's. She's really great in this series overall. He's had some tough moments, but he's been really good. Sure.

[Kyle]

What.

[Justin Varier]

What about this? We give the. The conference finals MVP trophy to the star, then we gave a smaller but cooler trophy to the guy we actually want to give it to, but we. Okay, because we're all cowards.

[Rob]

What are we calling that?

[Justin Varier]

So if the big trophy is. Who is it on the east side? Is it.

[Kyle]

It's not Michael, Sort of the Golden Globes, you know, Best actor, kind of like.

[Justin Varier]

Right?

[Kyle]

Yeah.

[Justin Varier]

If the. I don't know who they put in the trophy for East Finals mvp, but if it's Jordan, like, maybe this one is of Horace Grant, you know, like, you got the goggles on him and everything like that.

[Rob]

Are they both the ma. No, it's the Larry Bird trophy, the Magic Johnson trophy. So does it need to be a Celtic, or does it just need to be another Eastern Conference?

[Kyle]

Cedric Maxwell.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah, yeah. Cornbrell. Cornbread Maxwell. Let's make it that one. We're giving that to Caruso because Rob can't give himself to give him the big one.

[Rob]

Yeah, I. I am indeed the problem. But Alex. Alex Caruso is, to the surprise of no one fucking Ballin. I have no idea what it is that determines the fact that his shots don't go in the regular season than every three does in the playoffs. The rest of it, though, makes sense. Like, he's just an incredible multifaceted defender. And in this case, Justin, you nailed it. Like, the ball handling in terms of what the Thunder can tap into, it's just something that, like, not a lot of quote unquote, defensive specialists have that you're plugging in off the bench. You're not tasking them with that kind of responsibility. But he's the guy who they flash to the middle of the zone. He's the guy who can play impromptu point guard. He's the guy who they can, you know, free Shay up to make these sort of, like, you know, Iverson style cuts that trigger him into the offense in a different way. Having a player like that in. In the postseason is just absolutely invaluable.

[Justin Varier]

I think it also helps that, like, the spurs don't have as much collective size. And so, like, you don't really need to dig into your bench. They got. They brought out Kenrich Williams and he played really well in that game. But, like, you don't need to throw out all big lineups and go into the Wiggins minutes and all these other guys. They have those guys if you want to, but like you could really lean into your strength, which are these feisty ball handling defensive guards that they could just toggle into something else offensively. Curious what you guys think about going into this next game? Obviously huge one. Are you feeling one way or the other or do you feel like there's like something low hanging for the spurs that's happened to that they didn't in this previous game?

[Rob]

I don't know that there's anything low hanging. There are ways in which like some of, some of the complications in just getting wimy, the right kinds of touches I think are just going to be what they are like it's going to be crowded, it's going to be difficult to get him. The kinds of game one relentlessly rolling to the rim type stuff all the time, it's not going to be there. Weirdly enough, I think if Wimby plays in game six a little similarly to the way that Chet played in game five, which is to like unburden your brain a little bit from the expectations of playing perfect team basketball. Like you don't have to be the good soldier all the time. I thought part of the reason Chad was so successful offensively in game five was he would catch the ball, like for example, get an offensive rebound. It's like a little bit crowded around him in a way where he can't get a layup, but he would just take like a little turnaround jumper and nail it. And it's like that's a good enough spot. And, and the deeper you get into a series, the more you have to be willing to accept good enough opportunities. And it's not always going to be, you know, uncontested dunks over smaller defenders. It's not always going to be pull ups in which no one could possibly contest your shot. Sometimes it's just going to be like, are you willing to take a turnaround from 8ft, from 10ft? Are you willing to pull up on a mid range jumper? That's like not within your offense, not within your muscle memory in terms of what you've been doing all season. But if de' Aaron Fox is hampered and Dylan Harper is hampered and Stefan Castle is like hounded by defenders, this is gonna be what it, what it takes to win is you're just gonna have to make enough of these sort of impossible or at least sort of improbable shots in order to tilt the balance of the offense.

[Kyle]

This kind of feels like a bet big and maybe lose everything type thing where we're like dare in the house to take us. Because this goes back to what I was saying at the beginning where it's like if Wimby is forcing his own offense, you know, what form is that going to take? Because he's going to get worn down trying to get to the. If it's him facing up from, you know, the three point line, he's gonna get clawed at. You're gonna get into that sort of catch 22 of we need to do this. But also this is going to be the thing that wears down our superstar player. I would be a little bit worried about doing that for sure.

[Rob]

But what's the alternative?

[Kyle]

I think it could be, it could be a case of like where he's facing up from. But you know, you, you were also kind of courting more the same thing. It's like, is this sort of a. Like do we want Wimy taking three dribbles and trying to get to the rim or do we want him taking one? Maybe it could be a case of that. Be intriguing to see Wimby add like a Dirk shot at some point. Granted, I don't know that I want somebody that big fading away, but it would be absolutely unblockable. I don't know if, if he could ever add that. I just think ultimately man, the state that this and this is a shame because I really wanted to see both of these teams at full strength, you know, going throwing haymakers. And we've gotten to to game six, so can't complain too much. Hasn't been a super pretty series. I just feel like I'm gonna stay. I think I said Thunder and six originally. Maybe Thunder and seven. It's just gonna be such a colossal task. Even if they get game six Thunder at home, I feel like are probably gonna find a way to get it done.

[Justin Varier]

I do find myself like, like relying on pretty cliche things where it's just like home court advantage, like role players play better at home as opposed to on the road. Like those things do seem a series where the margins are so thin here. And also just like if you have a medical degree can tell me if Jaren Fox is going to show up in a given game. That does matter a lot. I'm glad he brought up Chet though. I did. It did feel like especially after we kind of dogged him the previous game or I at the very least did. It did feel like he had the type of game where he was more aggressive and it didn't push him to a different tier, but he was just like the best version of what you would expect from him at this point where like he was turned away at the Basset a couple times, but then he was still going at Wemby in a way that I thought was productive overall. And so like, if you could just be your fourth option and just be the best version of that. Disappointing in the broader scheme of things, but overall in this series, still a helpful player. If you could turn the keys over to Caruso and other guys to do that. Now, can you expect that every game from a Caruso type or some of the other guys that they got there? I'm not sure. But at the very least, like, that felt like a stabilizing performance for Chet that perhaps they could build upon.

[Rob]

Yeah, I think if it say that the three point shooting for the Thunder hadn't gone quite the way it did, Chad's performance would have felt, I think, even more decisive in giving the Thunder like a small but marginal lead over the Spurs. And the shooting is what broke it open. And that's where you know, if, if the Thunder shoots something closer to even their playoff average, this is at least a game down the stretch. This is at least within reach in a way that it, you know, clearly wasn't. Or at least the spurs didn't want to exert the energy to make it so in the fourth quarter. I hate that it boils down to that, but it really does. And the shooting on both sides can be like just spotty enough that it leaves so much of an opening. I think really what I'm saying is like this series has been closed the whole way. Even though you have what feel like decisive wins for both teams, I just really don't think in their current states either of these groups are demonstrably better or worse than each other.

[Justin Varier]

All right, let's take one more break, come back, talk a little bit about the Eastern Conference champion New York Knickerbockers. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever find yourself scrambling to grab that special something for a last minute party, a spontaneous date, or even that impromptu game night at home? That's when prime same day delivery swoops in. That essential item you thought you'd missed, delivered the plan, saved the win, secured. Because with prime same game delivery, you can grab it and go before the moment passes you by. Same name delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.comprime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply. All right, the Knicks, they've done it. They're back in the NBA Finals. None of us have A pulse on New York. And frankly, like, I feel weird trying to gauge one because New York is such a specific place that if you try to talk as if you have any knowledge about it, people will say mean things about you.

[Rob]

You sound like you're speaking from experience, Justin. Have you been out of school?

[Kyle]

I hear trauma talk.

[Justin Varier]

No. If anything, we're cool. I'm down and. Because I know my place. Right?

[Rob]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Justin Varier]

Well, I kind of feel like the Knicks, oddly enough, for a team in the biggest media market in the world, perhaps, or at least among them, just getting back into the finals feels at this point just not as full throated as you'd expect. Probably because there's so much momentum on the western bracket where it's like this is one of the best series we've seen lately. But yeah, it just feels a little underplayed and perhaps, maybe that's part of it. It's just like only certain people can talk about the Knicks and we just don't have any enough of them in our pod circles, you know, I'm not

[Rob]

sure that's the case, but I do feel like we're getting there now. Up until they officially punch their ticket to the Finals, it felt like Knicks fans collectively were trying to insist to themselves and all of us to like, be cool, stay quiet. Like, we'll believe this when it happens. Now that it's happened, I think the volume has risen pretty substantially and it may not be commensurate with what you may think a Knicks trip to the like to the potential championship would look and sound like. There have been times in their even like recent or somewhat distant history where it was like Iman Shumpert being a Knick was like the biggest story in the NBA for some reason. Like, they, they've had a way of turning these like minute details into national headlines. And yet here we are. They. They've like fought and clawed their way to get here. They've been unbelievably dominant over the course of their playoff run and it's been quiet until now, but now I think we're finally giving them the coronation that they so richly deserve.

[Kyle]

I think it's been enough of a drought and New York is enough of. They've gone through enough where I think only the, the only real grumbling I think you're going to hear are from people probably lovely directly, like in their division that just hate Nick fans or have some like, deep seated rivalry. I'm sure like Philly isn't enjoying this. I'm sure you Know that, but you're just not hearing it. But I think in the broader kind of feel good basketball atmosphere, the vibes are just so good. It. It felt like a. It felt like a flip back to the bing bong movement, you know, on social, when that was just like, everybody can get behind this. This feels good. They're riding in the streets, they're running. And like, I don't. It didn't get too crazy. We didn't get to like flipping cars or setting stuff on fire, did we? It didn't get that wild.

[Justin Varier]

They're acting like they've been here because they were here last year or they're at least close to it.

[Rob]

It's true.

[Kyle]

Yeah. Yeah, well, so I think there's enough positivity to just get behind it for now. Now if they come back, people may get. There may be some, you know, this freaking guy kind of energy, but for now, everybody feels good, I think.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah, they do have like the spirit of a small market team coursing through them because they've just gone through so much emotional turmoil, like, for the past three, four decades. Like, it's a very long time. It also is the type of thing where it's like, yes, they're a big market team and yes, they're insufferable in certain ways, but they're also amazing fans. Like, it's similar to Lakers fans where it's like, those people are absolute fucking insane. But they're insane because they're so passionate and they're very devout about watching a lot of things. Not the people perhaps at the games because those tickets are so overpriced at this point that no normal person can afford. Afford to go to them. But like Knicks and Lakers fans, some of the best fans in the world, I would say.

[Rob]

What, what has gotten into you today?

[Justin Varier]

Big market boy all of a sudden,

[Rob]

not only a big market boy, but like just giving big ups to fan bases. I just, I don't even know who I'm talking to.

[Kyle]

I talked to some. You were talking about, you know, how people in our job, you're sort of the touch point for all things basketball. And when they, you know, you people just sometimes will just like diarrhea a bunch of all the mainstream takes to you all at once. I have people like that my life. But I had some people who were talking about, they just casually like basketball in the broad sense and will go see anything. And they were like, we're thinking about driving up there, we saw some empty seats. Think about driving up there to the game. And I was like, are you prepared to drop? I was like. I was trying to be like, brother in Christ, be careful before you enter this foray. I mean, speaking of what Justin's talking about, I mean, it's. It's saccharine a little bit here. But, you know, I went up there, and Justin remembers this because he worked on it with me. I mean, I went up there and got to see it on the ground. And it. I'm not just saying this. It really. I come from a place that is very eaten up with basketball, and I think their culture is just different than anywhere. It's different than la, where there's. There's a ground level on the street thing going on, that it's just. It's a different basketball experience. So when all that stuff was going on, I was just like, I don't feel this way very often. I was just like, man, I wish I were there right now. I wish I could just see it because it's very spiritually in the air with them in a way that I think is. Is kind of driving this. This vibe overall.

[Justin Varier]

Go New York. Go, New York.

[Rob]

Someone had to do it.

[Justin Varier]

That's right. All right, we're gonna get more in depth into, like, the Knicks run and, like, what it's going to mean for whomever they ended up playing in the Finals. Next week, we'll do a big old NBA Finals preview, but we wanted to hit just quickly, like, some of the characters along the way, like, who really earned their New York Knicks bonafides here. Like, I want to do almost, like, the. The stripe ranking of, like, which of these players and perhaps even figures. Mike Brown, etc. Leon Rose, perhaps, like, really just, like, earn their place. I have it down. I'm curious what you guys think is, like, three tiers. Basically, you have, like, the first of all, once a Nick, always a Nick. So you're always a Nick just by being on that roster? Yes, just from years gone by. Lou Amundsen, you're a Nick as well. All right, so the next tier up, if we're doing the stripe rankings, I think it's like you're invited, right? You get into the building, you get somewhere there. You go to the events whenever we need to sign autographs. Almost like you're a Sopranos character. Like, you just do a meet and greet at a pickleball event. Like, you get to do that stuff too, right? It literally happened to veto for, which is why I'm mentioning it.

[Kyle]

You can get some potato wedges from the. You know, the under lit, you know, catering thing you can kind of go through and, you know, pay homage.

[Justin Varier]

Right. Two would be like, you're. You're front court at msg. You're one of the front and center people. You're the guy holding John Stark's back when he's trying front court.

[Kyle]

You mean center court or courtside?

[Justin Varier]

Front court, side. Thank you.

[Kyle]

Yes, yes.

[Justin Varier]

You're front and center. I mash them together because I'm so excited. I think level three would be like, Jim Dolan takes you. You're part of the Illuminati now. You're going to the secret dinners. You get the tax breaks, you know, the stock tips in advance. That's like highest level. Like, we're talking Patrick Ewing, we're talking Walt Fraser. We're talking, like, the absolute elite M. Rushmore sorts of guys. Okay, okay.

[Kyle]

You're getting JD in the straight shot. Private SoundCloud links to unreleased material. You're getting a lot of stuff.

[Rob]

Yeah, yeah, I need those JD in the Straight Shot download codes, for sure. I get. I guess, hook us up. Jim Dolan. So do we want to say msg, Illuminati, top tier, courtside, second tier, Friends and family room, third tier, or what do we want to call that?

[Kyle]

Overflow? Like Jon Lovitz at the snl?

[Rob]

I like the overflow third room.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah. Well, I think the most interesting characters are probably the ones that we've gone back and forth on a lot. I think we got to start with Carl Anthony Towns. First and foremost, just the playoff run of his life. Like, it's to the point where it's just like, I don't know who this guy is. Speaking of, like, Finals conference, Finals mvp. I would have voted for Towns. I realize why Brunson got it. He's been awesome. But, like, Towns has probably been overall their best player this entire playoffs. Just phenomenal. And so for him, I think this is a two or three sort of conversation because he's such a prominent figure. I could see maybe even three. Just depends on how many you want to put in. Three.

[Rob]

Yeah. This is the only issue with us doing this conversation about the Knicks specifically is, like, if anyone has been elevated to MSG Illuminati status over the last 27 years, why would you not put the centerpiece players of the team that's returning the Knicks to the Finals in that category as well? Like, what is J.R. smith done to get these robes that Carl. Carl Anthony Towns has not done?

[Kyle]

He did that sick baseline windmill against the Cavs that one year that Was nice.

[Justin Varier]

That was sick. He's had some songs.

[Kyle]

You're also trying to curate the. Like, this is a. This is a vibey hang. This is a. Like, we're back in the. You know, I mentioned you all. We're back there in the smoker's jacket. Kind of the pipe and the brandy kind of. This is a. This is a. This is a scene. Does Carl fit that? Like, Carmela with the shades? Yeah, you know, like, I think Brunson will fit that. It's just. That's my only thing. It's just, like, you come into a room, you're like, oh, there's Carl. Like, you know, I don't know if he's gonna ascend to that level or, like, oh, there's. You know. Do you walk in and you say, oh, my God, that's Carl.

[Justin Varier]

You keep moving, and then you just keep going. You never stop.

[Kyle]

That's where he's like, come back.

[Rob]

I think we all agree that the three of us are the arbiters of what is cool, right?

[Justin Varier]

Sure.

[Kyle]

I've never thought otherwise.

[Justin Varier]

I go to several cool parties, actually.

[Rob]

Oh, hell, yeah. I mean, I think Kat's got to be there. I think he. He has punched his Illuminati ticket already. And certainly if they were to go on to win the championship, like, that's. That's a totally different level of acclaim. But the way that any success is celebrated among Knicks fan culture and in New York more broadly, like, this is an incredible run deserving of exactly this kind of accolade.

[Justin Varier]

Well, here's a better question for you guys. Do you think differently about Carl Towns based off of this postseason run? Because, like, I'm having this internal conversation all the time here where it's like, as a player, this is the peak of Carl, right? Like, this is the best he's ever been in the playoffs. Like, the. The stupid files have been cut down. He looks, like, legit. But having said that, like, if he reverts back in the finals, let alone, like, next postseason, I wouldn't be surprised. So, like, I acknowledge the feat while still being, like, I don't know if I think about him totally different.

[Rob]

I kind of am thinking about him totally differently. And so some of it may just be how rigid your impression was of Carl Towns before, where I think just with everything we had seen from him, specifically the very frustrating parts of his game, right? The offensive fouls, the bad turnovers, the, like, you can't get him the ball when you need to get him the ball, and yet he's forcing these other shots, in these other moments. He just like, he felt like a player who in terms of the way he like thinks the game was never going to be exactly on the page with everyone around him and certainly executing at a level to be like championship type basketball. But he's done it like he's done it for round upon round after round. He's done it in a variety of roles that's like constantly evolving under his feet. He has been the key to unlock all of these series in his. In his way and in different ways basically depending on who the Knicks have been playing against. I didn't think he was capable of that to the point that I don't know that I ever would have. If you would have asked me going into the playoffs, do you think it's more likely than not that Carl sounds never wins a championship? I would say it felt like more like. It felt so much more likely that he would never win. And now I can see it, now I can picture it. I understand what it looks like. I understand the role he plays on a team like this. I think it speaks to the Knicks more broadly that the reason this feels like a championship formula is not just because they've gotten here to the finals and proven it, but they have the construction where all of their core players feel overqualified for what they do. Like, Jalen Brunson can be a guy who gets you 32, but sometimes the Knicks are at their best when he's putting up 25 and he's really distributing. Well, Cat could be a guy who gets you 25, but maybe it is at his best when he's giving you 18 and like crucial playmaking. And you could do the same exercise with OG and Mikhail Bridges. You could do the same exercise with Mitchell Robinson. Like so many guys on their roster, they just have so many players in really great spots right now because they have accepted doing a little bit less for a collective sake of like, how do we make this fit for this moment?

[Kyle]

Yeah, I think that there is the crisis of I can't take the thing that I do and expand it to the biggest stage. You know, like there's, I can't, I can't up. Increase the vault, pump up the volume of the thing that I do well and I fall short of the moment and I get, you know, LeBron went through this yada, yada, yada. But then there's also the crisis of self awareness that I think some players go through. And I think think that Carl falls into this category where if you look at his production like last year, you know, 21 and a half points per game and 1.3 assists per game. It's just kind of like sometimes the. And that's up to. That's num. The scoring's down to 16.9 and the assists are pushing 6 per game. So that's just kind of like, are you capable of being aware of yourself in a way to say, like, okay, maybe this isn't. I was under the impression that I needed to deliver that, and that took the form of points, of threes. I need to create my own shot. That's really difficult to do. That's really, really hard to do. And I think adjusting your game in a way that benefits with some. That benefits. Winning sometimes takes a different approach. And I think, like, in like a tweak of mindset, I think he deserves a lot of credit for that. So I.

[Rob]

It.

[Kyle]

I, Yeah, I absolutely have changed the way I think about Carl as a player, for sure.

[Justin Varier]

All right, next guy up here, Mikhail Bridges. And here's a good way to look at this.

[Rob]

Okay.

[Justin Varier]

Are we ever allowed to bring up how many first round draft picks were acquired by the Nets in the trade for Mikhail Bridges?

[Rob]

I don't think you are. I think the conversation's been put to rest. He's at minimum courtside seats. I think he has a pretty decent case for Illuminati status already. And some of it is putting in

[Justin Varier]

the Illuminati, I think.

[Rob]

I think it's a pretty. Look. You've seen these collections of Knicks alumni. Like, it's a pretty big tent that they've got going over there.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah, they have a lot. A lot of emails floating around.

[Rob]

Like, Tim Thomas is in the Illuminati, right?

[Justin Varier]

Yeah.

[Kyle]

Oh, no, as I said, he's. He's from New Jersey.

[Rob]

I don't think.

[Kyle]

I think he's at the game courtside, right?

[Rob]

He's courtside. But not John Starks, though. Illuminati, I think. Well, like, those guys are Illuminati.

[Kyle]

Wow.

[Justin Varier]

See, I thought it was more exclusive than that. I'm talking like five spots.

[Rob]

How do you make a secret society with five people? That's just like a club in your basement. Like, that's not.

[Justin Varier]

Clearly you've never been in a secret society. Apparently not.

[Rob]

You know what? If there's a five guy secret society out there, don't invite me. I don't want to be a part of it.

[Kyle]

Bridges in the Illuminati? No, I think he scored sight. I think so much of what he has had to do. Has been like, things had to be adjusted for him for him to succeed. He wasn't the catalyst himself. So I think you need to be a little bit of a catalyst to. To send to that level of. Of Illuminati, in my opinion.

[Rob]

Well, let me. Let me challenge that idea with another name, because this guy does not create for himself. But I think the cult of personality around Josh Hart is a little bit different than Mikael Bridges. Do you think. Does he have auto Illuminati status?

[Justin Varier]

When you.

[Kyle]

You tap into personality of the city kind of thing? That I think has like a really appealing thing where it's like Starks, I think, had some of that. Starks had. It was like a little erratic. It was a little bit like, I'll start a fight in the street that maybe I can't win, but damn it, I'm gonna go down swinging. Kind of the dunks, the scoring, the outburst. He had a swagger about him that Hart I think taps into also. And I think he's. Bridge is not the same. Bridge is like a nice guy that, you know, could date your daughter type thing. Like, you know, it's like not the same thing. Heart's like, I don't know about hard. He's really cool. I, you know, I don't know if

[Rob]

it's not allowed to date your hypothetical daughter.

[Kyle]

No, it's just not. It's a little. It's not as squeaky clean. Like, Heart has a little bit of a. Has a little bit more cred, I think.

[Justin Varier]

Think he's gonna go on to a very long post playing career, probably with the Knicks and probably with msg. Like, overall. And so I could see him being like a studio analyst 20 years down the road here because he's such a vibes guy. Like, he's like the perfect hang. If we're talking about that being for whatever reason of qualification in order for the stupid thing that we set up here, like, Heart's gonna be in our lives for a very long time, and I'm here for it. He could. He could even be in my wedding party. He could date whatever daughter I have. Even the age difference will be pretty profound at that point.

[Rob]

Yeah, we may have to wait some time for that to be kosher, but

[Kyle]

we need to swerve away from the daughter thing. It's just.

[Rob]

Look, I didn't. I didn't raise it. You brought it into this.

[Kyle]

I did it.

[Justin Varier]

I did.

[Rob]

I do think he's Illuminati. So so far we've got Cat do we think he's in or is he still kind of borderline second?

[Justin Varier]

He's probably in. I think we're being a little bit too rigid about this made up thing,

[Rob]

but yeah, it's a system we created.

[Kyle]

What are we doing if not adhering

[Rob]

to it, but Mikhail Bridges simply courtside.

[Justin Varier]

Okay. Anybody else? I. I think Lindry Shaman is an interesting case.

[Kyle]

Yeah.

[Justin Varier]

All of a sudden becoming just a critical role player. I've seen a lot of his, like, tunnel walks too. Guy has a lot of, A lot of style to his game. More than I ever expected for a guy who is derided by just his weird face for so long.

[Rob]

Wow.

[Kyle]

You know.

[Justin Varier]

All right, well, would you like.

[Rob]

I mean, I have not seen the tunnel walks. Could you describe his style for us? Like, what is, what is he working with?

[Justin Varier]

It's real, like every other Thursday Instagram friendly. Like the brand that you only see because the cool guys know it. Like, he's very plugged in. So clearly he just has like a successful girlfriend who like just. Or works as his. Or has a stylist. But it's like, it's much more approachable than it would be like someone like OJ and Nobi back in the day with like 90s scarfs just hanging off of various body parts.

[Rob]

Right, Gotcha. So there's, there's the approachability. Seems like the everyman quality to his style is what appeals to you.

[Justin Varier]

That's right. And I, I. In terms of pure basketball play, I think he's courtside.

[Rob]

I think he's. I think, look, if you move the needle in multiple conference finals games, you get to be courtside.

[Kyle]

Who's get. Are, are people getting bumped at some point? We only have enough seats. I mean, is.

[Justin Varier]

Right.

[Kyle]

Susie. Is Susie Espin getting kind of like bumped at some point? Bobby, you know, I don't, I don't know.

[Rob]

Mariska's not getting bumped. Like, there are certain people who are stapled to their seats there, but I think there's a lot of wiggle room on, on quote unquote, celebrity row.

[Kyle]

I'll leave that to the New Yorkers. Yeah.

[Justin Varier]

Mitchell Robinson, luckily, probably doesn't want to be there. He would rather just be like Mudden back in his hometown.

[Kyle]

Modest Louisiana boy. Yeah, him and Van, he might, he

[Rob]

might be overflow anyway right now. I think there's still it. Like, again, look, if you, if you win the championship, everyone becomes part of the Illuminati at that point. But like, I feel like what Landry Shammon has done on this run has been more important than what Mitchell Robinson has done on this run.

[Justin Varier]

That's fair. Yes. I think we gotta talk about Brunson at some point. I think the answer is pretty obvious here, but I've seen, like, the. The anecdotes about, like, what he wanted from the Mavs on an extension, and I believe it was four years, 56 million.

[Kyle]

Jesus Christ.

[Justin Varier]

Like, I was stunned by the number. I knew it was low.

[Rob]

Yeah.

[Justin Varier]

I mean, what's funny is he won't even make that per year until his next contract because he took such a bargain deal on this most recent extension. And so just one of the most bizarre, like, career trajectories I've ever seen. And it's funny because, like, obviously no one will remember probably that gaffe by the Mavs because of the Luka Doncic situation.

[Kyle]

But, like, oh, let me assure you,

[Rob]

people remember the photo of Brunson and Luca together. Like, media day has been swirling around.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah. There are a lot of. Lot of flubs in the Cuban era, just probably not to the historic extreme of his predecessors.

[Rob]

Yeah, it wasn't great. Yeah. I mean, we do need a new tier for Jalen Brunson. I'm thinking, like, Jim Dolan's soul and only heir. Just truly give him the keys to the city. Let him run msg. Like, I think there's, at this point, there is nothing you would take away from Jalen Brunson.

[Kyle]

Him.

[Justin Varier]

He.

[Kyle]

Yeah, I mean, he's probably getting to the point where he might want. He might want to dial it back a little bit. It's Jim Dolan, you know, unwanted, you know, vulnerable voicemails. I don't know. It's. He's. He's in the inter. The inner. Inner sanctum at this point for the Knicks, regardless of what happens, to be honest with you. I mean.

[Rob]

Yeah.

[Justin Varier]

Yeah.

[Kyle]

Because he has a. He's an air about him, too. That's the other thing, too. It's like that silent coolness. It's all. It's all adding up well.

[Rob]

And look, championships are amazing. They're celebrated in a totally unique way. They mean something to City that nothing else can. I know it's a bold stance, but this is what I really want to say. Getting to this point, getting to an NBA final is really the accomplishment to me, that matters, and that changes a lot about the perspective of a team and the players. It is an anointing of a different kind. You want to go all the way. You want to win it all, but it's like, this is something worth Celebrating in and of itself is just like. Just getting to this tier with the core of a team is like the ultimate confirmation in the roster that you built.

[Justin Varier]

Real. Like, the real victory in life is living well.

[Kyle]

I don't think they can win.

[Rob]

It's not living well. It's getting, like, reaching this sort of level with hope. Like, that is where you want to be that, like, as a fan of a team, as a part of that team. Like, I just. I don't. I don't want to get this. This exercise in our larger conversation about the Knicks bogged down in, like, oh, if they win, then X. Oh, if they lose, then Y. It's like, these guys are set for life because they got here on these terms with a historic, like, point differential along the way.

[Kyle]

And this version of it feels the best, right where you are tempted to. And it's taking it back to the spurs thing. It's that that was something that. Not that they get credit for approaching it this way, but not panicking whenever something goes, you know, because they've had some pretty rough. You know, we were talking about the Pacers thing. To lose the way that they did was really demoralizing. And to stand pat and be like, we're running it back, you know, And I know people were making that comparison with the Cavs. I don't think that's going to play out the exact same way. Hate to burst anybody's bubble, but this feels really good because they stuck with this roster build and they tweaked some things in the margins, but it was. We're going to. We're going to work with what we have and. And get in there in the Finals with hope. Now, like you were saying, Rob, I think it makes it feel extra sweet than a. Like, we went inside the best free agent, and we just, like, pushed a button and got the best. This is sweeter.

[Rob]

This is what I'm saying. Step by step, building a team that can go to the finals. Pretty sick, as it turns out.

[Justin Varier]

All right, before you go, Rob, you said you wanted to do a breakdancing routine for the audience.

[Rob]

What are you talking about?

[Justin Varier]

You want to do the worm real quickly?

[Rob]

Why are you like this?

[Kyle]

Wait, one of us knew the worm. Was it Rob?

[Rob]

I've never done the worm in my life.

[Kyle]

So one of us was elastic enough to do the worm. Justin, I could see as a teenager doing the worm. Did you know it?

[Rob]

Was that your signature move? That's a robot. That's not a worm. We got to get out of here. This is a disaster

[Justin Varier]

to go out on. All right, here's, here's the thing. If you're listening at home, we got and you hear go near go near go, we got the rights to it because Rob sold off a piece of his equity at the company. If not, you'll hear the regular group chat drop. Okay, so we'll go on on that. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. We'll see you next time. 21 and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18/ plus and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800-gambling or 1-800-My Reset. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York, Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.