Is This Anything? Philly’s Edgelords, the Unstoppa-Bulls, and More Early Trends.

Summary

The Ringer NBA Show – "Is This Anything? Philly’s Edgelords, the Unstoppa-Bulls, and More Early Trends."

Date: October 29, 2025
Hosts: Justin Verrier (A), Rob Mahoney (B), J. Kyle Mann (C)
Summary prepared for listeners who want the full NBA Group Chat experience—without the ads or fluff.

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Main Theme

This episode dives into the hottest early trends of the 2025-26 NBA season, using the recurring “Is This Anything?” format—a playful homage to both Letterman and the Orlando Magic broadcast. The crew dissects surprising team starts (the Sixers’ hyper offense, the Bulls’ clean execution), exploding individual stat lines, and evolving styles of play league-wide. Expect a blend of sharp analysis, dry humor, and classic Ringer banter.

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Episode Breakdown

1. Halloween Banter & Intro [00:00–02:01]

• The pod opens with the crew’s Halloween plans (and Justin’s combustibly cheap basketball costume), quickly veering into meta commentary about modern costumes and jokes within jokes.
• Memorable Moment:
  "He burned alive in a $3 basketball costume. He died as he lived." — J. Kyle Mann [01:19]

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2. Major Topic #1: Philadelphia’s Fast Start – "The Edgelords" [03:11–15:59]

What’s Happening in Philly?

• Philadelphia “Edgelords”: 76ers start 4-0, scoring 517 points in their first 4 games (most since 1991 except for a recent Miami outburst).
• They’re piling up points without playing fast—their offense thrives on efficiency, not pace.
  • “They are just piling up points through pure efficiency, through pure dominance, through these guys just kind of like exercising their will over the course of the game. I don't know what to make of it, but I'm fucking terrified.” — Rob [04:40]

Bifurcated Identity

• Conflicting Styles: With Embiid on the floor, the team slows and expectations drag; without him, the young core runs wild.
  • “You can just feel like the vibe whenever [Embiid]’s on the floor, the ball's not moving as fast. ... And you have these guys that are just kind of like pent up stallions who just want to run.” — Kyle [06:03]
• Embiid’s effectiveness is still there, but he looks resigned to stretch-big status.

Tyrese Maxey’s Ascendance

• Maxey’s Leap: Now so explosive and dependable it’s shocking when he fails.
  • “He’s kind of tipped for me from being a guy who has all of this explosive potential to—I am now just kind of actively shocked when he doesn’t get to his spot, when he doesn’t get the shot he wants.” — Rob [08:10]
• Teammates like VJ Edgecombe (whose name sparks running jokes), Grimes, and McCain round out a backcourt that’s “getting more fun by the day.” Bona anchors defense intermittently.
• Big Picture: The Sixers’ offense is real, Maxey’s leap is real, but the team identity is muddy—caught between young, fun, and semi-tragic (Embiid future uncertain).

Vet vs. Young Core Friction

• Justin likens the team to early-’90s Celtics post-Bird era: a transition of power on the fly.
• Quote: "They're probably closer... to what the Wizards have going on, where we're just finding things out about this team.” — Justin [13:58]
  • Rob mildly pushes back: “That feels a little disrespectful to Philly. Like they are more competitive than Washington.” [15:05]

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3. League Trend: 40-Point Games Boom [17:27–24:51]

• Stat: Through 7 days: 16 forty-point games (vs. just 5 at this point last year).
• Overall pace is fastest since 1985-86; more fouls (+4.5/team), but three-point attempts are actually down. Offensive efficiency is basically flat.
  • Analysis: More stars forced to do more (injuries/depth), more fouls, and top guys handling unprecedented offensive loads.
  • “It's never been easier to get 10 threes up in a game and it's never been easier to walk to the free throw line for 10, 15, 20, 25 attempts in some cases.” — Rob [18:31]
• Foul Grifting Evolution: Modern creators manipulate deceleration and contact at an elite level.
  • “These guys have just gotten so good and at practice so much at, you know, driving to the basket and, like, someone's touching me, I stop—not necessarily the Trae Young thing, but they’ve gotten really good at creating those types of fouls.” — Kyle [20:00]
• State of the League:
  • “The creators are a little bit ahead of the defenders and they're very far ahead of the officiating in terms of what they can manipulate and create.” — Rob [24:51]

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4. Individual Spotlight: Jamal Murray – Now Mr. October? [24:51–32:42]

• Jamal Murray starts the season sharp and aggressive—finally showing Playoff Murray form from the jump.
• Jokic’s Approval: Jokic defers more when Murray is cooking—maybe a barometer for how Denver’s pecking order will look all year.
  • “Nobody wants this version of Jamal Murray more than Nikola Jokic does.” — Rob [30:20]
• Murray’s targets (e.g., Bones Hyland, Dillingham) may be weaker defenders, but his attacking mindset is a net positive.
• Jokic himself appears content, occasionally "fighting for his life" in his jersey, but perhaps pacing himself for the grind ahead—offering a little “spooky season” humor.

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5. The “Unstoppa-Bulls”: Has Chicago Figured It Out? [34:13–47:50]

• Bulls start 3-0, #1 in defense, #5 in assists, and are "just a fun watch": big athletes who can pass and defend, not star-driven.
  • “You were right, Justin.” — Rob [35:46]
  • “They're the most committed team to moving the ball early in the season. … a good way to compensate for the fact that if you're going to play a bunch of like iffy shooters at the same time, there's gotta be some sleight of hand in there.” — Rob [36:00]
• Ball Movement: Dead last in dribble pull-up jumpers; they get to the rim and play as a squad. Young guys (Dosunmu, Tre Jones, modest Bouzelis) step up.
• Vucevic’s Redemption: Rebounding/ending possessions drives their success, and Justin relishes being vindicated as one of just two voters putting Vucevic in the Ringer Top 100 [40:01].
• Schedule has been soft, and three-point defense is likely to regress—but Bulls actually know who they are.
• Deeper Question: Can a team built around a non-pull-up point (like Giddey) ever be more than a “40-degree day” (reference to “The Wire”)?
  • “There's just like a cycle that you automatically put yourself into with the roster construction of a non-dribble pull-up shooter…” — Kyle [43:11]
• Bench & Rotation: They’re deep, play with energy, and Billy Donovan cycles through eight guys playing 20+ minutes per game [41:09].

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6. Fast Note: Modest Bouzelis’ Athleticism [48:03–50:38]

• Bouzelis provides athletic pop as a slasher, with flashes of brilliance but shooting remains a swing skill for his long-term development.

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7. Major Topic: Knicks’ Reinvention—Volume Three-Point Shooting [51:10–60:49]

• Style Shift: Knicks go from 27th to 3rd in three-point attempts. They run more fluid offense, speed up the pace, and move the ball (Mike Brown’s influence).
  • "We're seeing teams that are coming in with a deal of continuity and also just like a resolve and understanding that, like, hey, we don’t have that guy and we need to find a way to cut and triangulate." — Rob [36:00, referencing Miami/Chicago but applies to Knicks too]
• Benefits and Pain: The growing pains are visible. Some stars (Cat, OG) adapting well, others (Josh Hart) less so.
• The point-of-attack defense in the league is way up—teams pressure lead handlers full-court more often than ever [55:28], which means teams need the “decision-making democratization.”
• OG Anunoby’s volume is up, though not yet efficient; Josh Hart’s fit is under scrutiny due to spacing issues.
  • "Josh Hart’s lack thereof in terms of spacing... is part of that formula." — Rob [58:39]
• Bench Depth: Knicks finally use their bench—eight players with meaningful minutes in the first four games (vs. a shallow rotation last year) [60:44].

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If this is how I go, I die doing what I love, truly—talking to my guys, wearing a big old basketball costume.” — Justin [01:12]
• “I think the biggest difference Rob is this feels like a Maxey team more than it does an Embiid team now.” — Justin [12:21]
• "They are at the foot of a mountain right now, dare I say a Rocky Mountain..." — Kyle, on the Nuggets [31:39]
• "Don't nobody got shit to say about a 40 degree day—the Bulls have a lot of 40 degree day years." — Kyle [38:10]
• “We're just finding things out about this team. ... This is more of a young-leaning team where like, if things, good things happen, you should be proud of that. But I wouldn't get over your skis and start thinking about ... Joel Embiid.” — Justin [13:58]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Philly Edgelords/Maxey vs. Embiid discussion: [03:11–15:59]
• 40-point game trend league-wide: [17:27–24:51]
• Jamal Murray & Nuggets offense: [24:51–32:42]
• Unstoppa-Bulls analysis: [34:13–47:50]
• Knicks’ reinvention & three-point surge: [51:10–60:49]

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Final Thoughts

The pod is a snapshot of the league’s October weirdness: high scores, stars doing everything, teams racing to figure out their identity, and “vibes” both thrilling and bizarre. The analysts’ tone is smart, self-awarely nerdy, and just irreverent enough to make the basketball takes pop.

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For full context—they close with quick Halloween plans [62:17–end]. No NBA content after that.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign group chat. I am JustinVerrier. And joining me, Rob Mahoney. J. Kyle Man. Gentlemen, we are here two days away from Halloween. Some of us are in the spirit and some of us are dorks.

[B]

Is that how it breaks down?

[A]

I think so. Okay.

[B]

Would you like to walk us through your costume, Justin?

[A]

So for the listeners at home who aren't watching on video on Spotify or YouTube or whatever means people watch video these days, 3D. I am wearing just a big old basketball because it's my favorite sport. And I also have these headbands and wristbands.

[C]

Yeah, because they look six years old. But the quality of the build of your costume also looks that, like, if you got within 10 miles of a spark, you're just going to go up in flames. I can't. Like the cancerous fumes that must be in whatever you are wearing and whatever dark factory it was made in. I. I don't want to be near you because I. I'm aware. I'm. I'm afraid of the carcinogens and the impact that it might have on me if we. So I'm glad we're over Zoom for this one. Justin.

[A]

Listen, if this is how I go, I die doing what I love, truly talking to my guys, wearing a big old basketball costume.

[C]

He burned alive in a $3 basketball costume. He died as he lived.

[B]

So to clarify, you are just Basketball.

[A]

There's a basketball.

[B]

I mean, honestly, I love it.

[A]

Well, I think people have gone a little too far down the road where most of the costumes I'm seeing now, especially from the youth, are like a joke on top of a joke on top of a joke. There's no, like, Wilt Chamber Lad sort of situation here where you're part Wilt Chamberlain, but also like a Scottish schoolboy. You know what I mean?

[B]

Now, I wish you had done basketball.

[A]

That's actually pretty good next year.

[B]

Well, Chamberlad is very good. But look, when in doubt, go back to the source. You know, this is. This is what unites us. This is the driving passion of your life. I support you.

[A]

It's also the driving passion of this show and especially today's show, because we're ripping through a lot of early season trends, a lot of fun stuff that we're not quite sure might carry on even past this week or in a month or so. We're doing a little bit of. Is this anything which, if you've been listening to this podcast, you know is a ripoff of David Letterman, which is also a ripoff of the Orlando Magic broadcast. Basically, we're going to ask if these things, these early trends, these data points from the first week of game. We have exactly a week of data right now. If there's anything here to explore, if there's anything noteworthy to talk about. And I think first and foremost, so.

[C]

Good, so good, so good.

[D]

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[A]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th. And never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail] on that front, we got to talk about the Philadelphia 76ers. The Philadelphia edge Lords, as I'm calling them these days. Are you? Yeah. Well, we had a little talk yesterday with Chris Ryan about like, what's happening. What's the nickname for. For tyrese Maxey and V.J. edgecombe. He proposed like Edge Max or something like that. I think you just gotta go pure. But here's the thing. It's not just those two who are getting in on the action now. It seems like the entire offense is just, just going for it, just letting it fly. So in the first four games of the NBA season in which the Philadelphia 76ers are four and oh, improbably, they have scored 517 points. Okay, that other than the Miami Heat, who we talked about in the last pod, who scored 144 in the time in between the two pods is the most since 1991. The Sixers scored 139 in overtime win against the Wizards last night. Rob. And so I asked you, is this anything?

[B]

Yeah, it's something. What is happening? How is this possible? And like, honestly, the part that freaks me out the most relative to the stats you just reeled off. Jv, The Sixers are one of the slowest paced offenses in the entire league. So yes, they have Maxi and Edgecombe who can rev up at a moment's notice, but this is not a team that's getting up and down the court. They are just piling up points through pure efficiency, through pure dominance, through these guys just kind of like exercising their will over the course of the game. I don't know what to make of it, but I'm fucking terrified.

[C]

I think it's noisy. That's what I would say. I think it's a little noisy because.

[B]

We'Re three games in, Kyle. It's all noisy.

[C]

No, no, no. I just think in terms of. I don't. There. There's an interesting thing going on. First of all, I just want to say, are we going Edgecomb or we saying Edge come? Like, Because I'm. I don't know. How are you all saying his last? Because I'm hearing Edge come, and I'm like, I don't. I'm just going to leave that one. I don't know. I'm also a child. Let's move on. I can't not hear it. It's people like, slow down. I'm just like, edgecomb. All right, here we go. So, no, there's a. There's a, like, interesting kind of duality going on within the Sixers right now because. And I think that it's causing another duality within their fan base where when Embiid is on the floor, you can just feel the saddled. You can just feel the saddle of like, mourned expectation, mourned futures, mourned lost possibility. And. And he's just sort of like this weird ghost hanging around. I don't like. You can just feel like the vibe whenever he's on the floor, the ball's not moving as fast. They don't play as fast. You can't protect the rim like you used to be able to. So it affects everything. And you have these guys that are just kind of like pent up stallions who just want to run. And then you can see what happened. And I think last night's game was an interesting microcosm of this is they start out of the gate, they've got a lead in the first quarter. And then you can watch the game chart. You can see. See it. It just kind of cascades to this low point where the vibe is just completely the yuck.

[A]

The.

[C]

The yum is yucked. And by the time the third quarter rolls around, Washington is feeling good, they're having a good time. And then all of a sudden they, they. They go small, they start playing faster, they start pressuring the ball. Washington is not prepared to handle that shit whatsoever. And you could just see them slowly and also add on top. You know, Middleton and McCollum can't guard anybody anymore. So when you put juxtapose those two things, Philly climbs all the way back. And so you had this thing going on where they're very, very fun. And I think you can observe it in their fan base. We've observed it with Chris and other Sixers fans where the embiid thing is just. I know they want him to succeed and if he could be back and be his normal self, I'm sure that would be great. But it's just kind of. It's not interfacing the two. The two styles are not interfacing with each other very well. So you see this excitement. Yeah, you see this excitement about their young players, and then they're like, oh, all right, well, let's. I think they just want to be like, no expectations, young and fun. I feel like that's what Philly fans want to do right now.

[A]

That's the move.

[B]

I mean, speaking JV's language with that one.

[A]

We were talking about this in the preseason power rankings. It's just like there's so much fun going on there in the backcourt, which is getting more fun, honestly, by the game, because now Grimes is just jumping in there. He's seeing everybody go for close to 40 and he's like, let me do that. And McCain is now kind of on the fringes waiting to jump back into here because he had the injury and it seems like he's back doing stuff on the court. So, Rob, it's like, if anything, this might compound soon. Like they might even get into the 1:50 territory. Partly, I think, because they give away oftentimes 1:40.

[B]

They do look the look the defense is. There's not anything to write home about. And I say that with all due respect to like a Dembona who's coming up with huge defensive plays now and again doing his damnedest to hold down that spot. But they need a lot of help defensively. They just have so much firepower right now that they are overwhelming in exactly that way. And I think. I think the part of that that feels least noisy to me, like, yes, some of this is aberrational. I don't think we're going to be talking about the Sixers as the literal highest scoring team of the last like 30 years or whatever. That doesn't seem like it's going to stick. It does feel like Tyrese Maxey has leveled up in a pretty significant way and he's. He's Kind of tipped for me from being a guy who has all of this explosive potential to. I am now just kind of actively shocked when he doesn't get to his spot, when he doesn't get the shot he wants. I'm like, oh, what went wrong there? Because he's so fast, he's such a good shooter and maybe right now shooting a little bit above his head, as many people do early in the season, but combining that with just the decision making and the stop and go and like, you just see him make like the one armed cross court whip passes when the defense is overextended now in a way that he wasn't doing before. That stuff is really and truly exciting and to me feels built to last.

[C]

Yeah, this is the arc that he's been on since he came into the league. We knew he could get downhill. We knew he could make those little floaters push shots. We were like, can he shoot the ball and can he get off the ball? And he started to really address those things in. What is this, Year five, year six for him? I don't know off the top of my head, but yeah. When I want to clarify, when I say no noisy, I don't mean like statistically in the classic, like, statistics class. Pure raw definition of that. I'm just saying muddled identity for Philadelphia is kind of what I'm seeing.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

Because telling I. I was having this thought when I was watching them. I just feel like Embiid is in his. His like Apocalypse Now, Brando era, where he's showing up to set and they got like an earwig in his ear feeding him his lines. And it's just. There was a moment in the fourth quarter before this game swung. You're right about Bona. He's a madman. Because when they got Bona initially, I was just like, second unit, change of pace. And now it's. It's taken on a different, a little bit different of a vibe. I mean, he's blocking everybody. He blocked. Didn't he block Wendell Carter like three or four times in a row in the first quarter of that game? Did you all see that? You know what I'm talking about.

[B]

But with all due respect to Wendell, I believe it.

[C]

Wendell just looks really, really deflated by it. But there was a moment where it was like 10, 19 in the fourth and Maxine Edgecomb are like just flying up the court and Embiid doesn't come into the frame until there are 16 seconds on the shot clock. And I was laughing. I rewound this. And when he came into the frame, he had his hands up like he wanted the ball. And I was just like, this moment is the moment right here. This is where. This is the, this is the, the space between the two. The two styles that are going on, they're very fun. But I agree with you. It's like, it's hard to know is this a thing, how serious is this? Right.

[A]

Well, I'm surprised he actually got back on offense in that play that you're describing because sometimes he doesn't and if he does, I can't remember from last night's game a time where he actually walked inside of the three point arc. Just seems like he is resigned to being this stretch big. And to his credit, even in these limited minutes, even though he is rigor mortis out there, he's making a ton of shots and he's actually being helpful in that end. Now on the other end, Alex Sar put in work on him pretty easily just because Embiid was huge and he can stand there. But Saar, who doesn't have a very refined post skill, was being able to just move around him in order to score enough. And that's the trade off with this team. Luckily they have the backcourt in order to put up the points on there. Going back to Maxi with one. What Rob is saying, there's like speed, there's like very fast players and then there's one of one John Wall type and Maxi's probably the fastest guy with the ball and you're seeing that play out. We thought the leap was going to come last year and I think the biggest difference for this year is not only is he just healthy, but he now has a complement of guys that feed into there where you have the threat of VJ who's just not, maybe not as fast, but is fast in his own right, is going to become more of like the physical component next to him. So you have Embiid stretching and then you just have everybody just firing it up. It just fits him. And I think that's the biggest difference Rob is this feels like a Maxi team more than it does an Embiid team now.

[B]

It does, but he does need those kind of counterbalances. Right. If you just put the ball in Maxi's hands and had him run pick and roll after pick and roll, we've kind of seen what that looks like and it's, it has its limits. It can be incredibly productive, but it's not going to carry a winning team necessarily. But you even give him Joel at the three point line. And now Maxi's just like one of the most dynamic give and go players in the league, right? You can't leave him at the three point line, but he is a good cutter. He's not like a Steph Gravity movement to the three point line kind of player, but he's a guy who will go back door and just like really, really punish you if you look away at all. And so VJs giving the defense a reason to look away. Having Joel out there, even in look, we've hit mummy, we've hit rigor mortis, we've had ghosts. Like spooky season is really and truly upon us. But mummy, Joel Embiid like that, that is something to distract defenses in a really meaningful way. And so the more stuff you put out there with Tyrese Maxey, the beauty of his game is that he fits with almost anybody, that he has such a cohesive, coherent game that can play any style, that can play with other stars, that can be massively productive when you need him to be, but can also kind of be a spot up shooter, be a cutter, be a supplementary piece when the ball goes to the other side of the floor.

[C]

Yeah, that he, he got that. The, the first few years in the league were his training for that. Right? So now we're seeing, you know, what, what you got initially get. When he gets off the ball, he can lean on, on that training and then when he has it, he can kind of explore some of these new, some of these new pieces. I think you all, you're right about like Embiid being productive. And I was, I was thinking about, you know, not, not to like belabor my own bit here, but you know, Brando was still good in Apocalypse Now. He was just limited.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Just saying.

[A]

I think an optimist would say, well, if Paul George ever plays, which is a big if, if he's just activating some of these disparate parts at this point, if he gives them the bare minimum of creation, just a long body on defense, they could be pretty feisty here. I don't know what their ceiling is. Maybe it's playing whatever it is. But I think what this game underlined for me ultimately is that they're probably closer in terms of expectations, in terms of like how you should watch them and perceive them to like what the Wizards have going on, where we're just finding things out about this team. This is more of a young leaning team where like, if things, good things happen, you should be proud of that. But I wouldn't get over your skis and start thinking about like, oh, what if Joel Embiid plays 25 games or 25 minutes or 25 games. Honestly, like, let's, let's keep expectations low on the Sixers and just enjoy what we have here.

[B]

I, I hear everything you're saying and I agree with the thrust of it. I just need to acknowledge, even as somebody who is in like the top 1% of Wizards plugged in people on the planet right now, that that feels a little disrespectful to Philly. Like they are more, they're more competitive than Washington.

[A]

Oh, we'll see. I mean, the schedule has been quite charming thus far, which is a big part of this.

[B]

It has. And like, look, clearly they're not that much better than Washington, but I think that the standard of play, just by having more veteran guys with actual NBA experience like, like a Tyrese Maxey alone separates you from teams like the Wizards.

[A]

I mean, Bob Carrington, I don't know if you saw him last night.

[B]

I certainly did.

[C]

There's a, there's like a, there's like an early. This is a very ringer thing I'm about to say, but there's like an early 90s. I'm just trying to think of other teams who have gone through something similar like this. I don't know if it's quite the same, but there's like an early. Because the Sixers process did not result in championships. But it's, it's kind of reminded me of the way like, like the early 90s Reggie Lewis coming in with like the old Celtic stars and you're kind of figuring out who's going to be steering the ship. It's kind of. I'm trying to think of other examples of it, but that's just one that comes to mind.

[A]

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[A]

So Tyrese Maxey, two 40 point games thus far this season. Almost had it last night. He had 39 overall. The as we've seen in this early season, a lot of guys putting up a lot of points to the point where like a couple of them started rolling off. I was like, what's, what's going on here? Like, is it something a foot perhaps? But through seven days worth of games, we now have 16 instances of 40 or more points last season at this same exact time. Five. Just five. And so I have to ask like, what's going on? I was looking through some of the just like overall league averages and the crazy thing, Rob, is so pace is way up. It's the highest it's been since 85, 86. And now we should mention, like this is particularly noisy because these things tend to go down as the season goes along. Fouls also way up, over four and a half more than last season. But the crazy thing is three point attempts are actually down and overall offensive efficiency is basically flat. So I assumed it was everything, but it's actually just a more concise set of things that are going up.

[B]

Well, I think three point attempts overall could be down, but for the people with the ball, they can be up. And I think that's the combination. If we're looking at kind of the stew that's leading to these factors. Jv, you were, you were on it as far as the fouls being up and the free throws being up already. Tim Legler also was on Bill's pod talking about this like it's just never been easier to get 10 threes up in a game and it's never been easier to walk to the free throw line for 10, 15, 20, 25 attempts in some cases. And that combination is just going to be incredibly explosive. But I think the other part of this too that is is kind of absent from that criteria. There are so many guys right now who have a lot of opportunity because other people are hurt. And we talk about this every year in Some form or fashion or another. We kind of wring our hands about the state of things and how we stop this. I don't have any big picture like solutions to what is happening. I'm just looking around and we are three games into the season and the Rockets are trying to get a hardship exception. We are three or four games into the season and the Pacers have, I am not exaggerating, seven guards who are sidelined. I thought we were going to get point Huff before they signed Mac McClung. Like everything is kind of off its axis right now. And so when you think about who is getting these 40 point games, Luka, Austin, Reeves, Tyrese Maxey, Jalen Brown, Shay, even Giannis in a way, if you want to kind of trace the, the dame ripple effects back a little bit. These are all guys who are dealing with major injuries on their team and all of a sudden have the ball in their hands an awful lot.

[C]

Yeah, speaking to. And I was curious, I was waiting for you to say you went through it. I'd be curious to chart to see who these guys were getting some of these fouls from too, because I did a little bit of a dive just watching the nature of the fouls that were, that were happening. And one thing that I really think has happened a lot is, you know, we got rid of some. They've done a good job of kind of pruning the bonsai tree of, of foul, you know, grifting in the lead because grifting is going to be there. But I think a large part of that is, you know, we've gotten rid of some of the somebody's down, you just jump into them kind of stuff. I was thinking about players have gotten so good. I studied this a little bit this summer at Move Interrupted moves where in the past, you know, this sort of like looking for fouls, trying to like usually when you have a move, it's a scripted A to B movement that you have practiced. It's like, I do this, I get to this spot, blah blah, blah. Guys started to figure out over time that, you know, I make this move and then depending on if somebody's touching me, depending on if somebody has movement going opposite of me, I can jump into them. Like Luca is another example of a guy who, you know, when the game really sped up and spread out, we started to see some of these wispy defenders. And I think there's been sort of a response where these pace players like Shay and Luca have really, really started to get. Become masterful at just knowing you Know, slowing it down, going the opposite way. Suddenly deceleration. How many times has deceleration been talked about? I, I, I'd like to see the Google Analytics on this in basketball, but it, it went to the fucking moon. I mean, it was just all the time. And I think that's a big part of it. I, I think it's like these guys have just gotten so good and at practice so much at, you know, driving to the basket and like, someone's touching me, I stop. Not necessarily the Trey Young thing, but they, they've gotten really good at creating those types of fouls. And you, you start to feel like, I was asking myself, I was like, how do I feel about this? I was like, I, I don't love it. Because if, if you get somebody and they have their hands on you and you get really good at that, that's one thing. If a guy, if you bait a guy into jumping, that's on him. That's kind of where I've landed. It's like, you, you know, you got to learn to stay down. And that's the challenge of defending some of these great players in the modern age.

[B]

Yeah, defenders, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you know, slap the floorboards. Like, let's, let's get to it.

[C]

Well, what do we do, Rob? I don't know. You watch like, the free throws, it's like, is it the officiating? Is it bad? I'm, I'm just, I'm trying to figure out how I feel about the uptick in fouls, because it doesn't seem like it's as bad as the, the fever, you know, the boiling point with Luca scoring, whatever the point total it was.

[A]

Yeah, I'm looking at this list, and Rob is right. It practically is just an accounting for some of the, not only bigger stars in the game, but also guys who don't have either, like a fully complement of players, like there's injuries happening here or they're just not one of these teams with just pronounced depth. Like Oklahoma, for instance. There's only Shay is on here once, and it was the game against Indiana, which I believe went to two overtimes. That also has been a part of it, where it seems like there's been a lot of overtime games, so there could be something noisy there. But I do wonder if we're thinking about what we talked about last spot, and we've been talking about overall, where there's just more pace, more depth, more like teams playing players less, but just getting fresher bodies out there. I Wonder if you're a team that doesn't have that. The only way to complement that is to play your star players more, but also ask them to do more. I think Giannis is a prime case of this, but, um, I guess Cam Thomas, the 1 non star on this list, also fits that bill. Where tongue, nothing else to do. You just played through Cam Thomas, so I almost wonder if it's a response to that. Where it's like, to keep pace, if you're Giannis, like including in last night's Knicks game, you just have to do a ton. You have to play a lot. You have to play incredibly hard in order to keep up.

[B]

It also doesn't hurt that guys like Giannis, like Giannis and Wimby have been in this category. I would say even Luka, when he's been healthy, just look as unstoppable as I have ever seen them look. Like just on an individual level, just are proposing the kinds of challenges to kind of tap into what Kyle was talking about with the way these guys are moving and the way they're manipulating defenders and the way they've learned to kind of play through a different kind of contact and draw a different kind of foul. Like, you watch Giannis against the Knicks, and sure, there are faults in terms of what New York's doing defensively on a possession to possession basis. You also see OG just getting, like, bodied out of the way and like, that's OG and Anobi. I'm not sure what anyone else is supposed to do under those circumstances. And Wemby presents a similar problem. Luka presents a similar problem. There are nights where ANT presents those kinds of problems. I don't know what it is about the state of the league right now, but it does feel like in the arms race of how these things go, the creators are a little bit ahead of the defenders and they're very far ahead of the officiating in terms of what they can manipulate and create.

[A]

Yeah, well, one of the guys who is part of that 40 point list is Jamal Murray, who we will heretofore only refer to as Playoff Jamal Murray, because this is the version that we've gotten thus far. Rob, I think we saw signs of this in the preseason where he looked sharp, he looked in shape, he looked engaged even in preseason action. And thankfully it's carried into the games thus far.

[B]

I mean, he's just Mr. October now. I think Playoff Murray can be retired. Like, our guy is here taking this shit seriously from the jump for the first time in his entire career. And look, that's frustrating in its own way. There. There are times where you watch Jamal Murray, and he has accomplished a great deal as a player, has proven everything. And on a playoff stage, that really.

[A]

You can prove for.

[B]

For a guy in his role. He just kind of decided that he was above the regular season, and you can see it, like, night and day in his play. There is a way that Jamal Murray moves when he moves with purpose, and then there's the way that he kind of jogs through stuff in the regular season. Like, there's a literal bounce in the way that he is working with the ball, where you can tell, oh, this is a game and a moment that he's taking seriously. This is something that he feels is worthy of his attention and investment. And we saw that before the games even actually mattered. And that's. That's when my. My eyes really opened wide as to. As far as, like, what this Denver season could be, what Jamal Murray's season could be. I. We'll see about the longevity of that. He's also a guy who tends to pick up nagging injuries here and there, but I don't know how you could be anything but thrilled about his level of investment in these first couple of games while he's just, like, putting up 30 a night, like, it's nothing.

[C]

Yeah, I think it had all kind of stacked and. And culminated to the point where, you know, he has these awful, you know, summers with. With the. With Team Canada, and he'd been nagged. Yeah. I mean, he'd been hurt. I think it doesn't excuse any of the other. You got to do the things you have to do to get ready. Apparently he went to Jamaica. I don't know if he went to Jamaica's largest freshwater pool and relaxed. That's an office reference. Rob hates the office and thinks it sucks, and everyone should chide him for that. But he went and he got right, apparently. And you can. You can definitely tell. Yeah, it's nice to see, because he was sort of this evasive, elusive kind of a guy, and I kind of just wonder if the physicality. He did have a shift. I feel like within the first three or four years of his career where he started to take on some more of that physicality, and I wonder if it just wore him down. I haven't tracked, like, the. The. The timeline on this, but, yeah, he had that gigantic outburst I was trying to, like, gauge. He wasn't super efficient from three in the first two games, and then he just had that big out that. That's what I think we should parse is like, he had a really, really great game against Minnesota. Granted, Minnesota's like, perimeter switchability was compromised because Ant wasn't out there. Yeah, because I was watching it. I was like, he put up a ton of points, but he was kind of picking on Dillingham and switches picking on Bones Highland. Those guys are just like wispy bucket getter guys that are just not equipped to deal with the maddening process of the, like, I have the ball. I'm going to throw it to Yokich ball screen, throw it back to him. Angle the screen like he did kind of pick on them. That would be my one thing that I would just throw. Devil's advocate. Do you all, like. Do you all think that. That. How do you. How does that make you feel in. In light of. Of the numbers?

[B]

Here's the thing. Is he picking on lesser defenders in those moments? Yes. Is he picking on Bones Highland in particular? Who. For those that remember, you know, there's like a little. A little chatter between those two. There's. There's some history there also. Yes. There's a little beef.

[C]

I totally forgot about the. About the in house. I totally forgot about that. That's a good call. Yeah.

[B]

At this point, the beef has long gotten rotten. You know, it's just been sitting in the back of the fridge, I guess, dry aging for a long time because Jamal's making good use of it. But look, here's the, like, ultimately where.

[C]

Collagens are in there. It's. Oh, yeah, right where I land the marbling.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

If we can get away from beef.

[B]

Talk for one moment, where I land on it is Jamal picking on guys is a good thing. Like him targeting guys. Taking this stuff personally, those are positives to me as far as regular season basketball goes. So I don't. I don't care who he's picking on. If he's being this productive and this dominant and really like attacking and stretching defenses in this way.

[A]

Well, I don't know how you guys have looked at this, but I thought even though he wasn't hitting early on, like, the shot has looked good, better than it has in years past. And I found that whenever, and this is more anecdotal than anything super scientific, like, when he struggles, his shot is short, he'll front rim a lot of them. And that's really important because the shot opens up so much for him, whether it's aging, whether it's the lingering effects of the big old injury he had, but everything he's doing now is way more craft than it is physical. And so you see the shot giving way to him being able to do more nuanced, manipulative things, just like in the paint as a result of it. I also found that it's really telling when Nikola Jokic just decides, I'm out and I'm not going to shoot anymore. There's the real, like, canary in the coal mine sort of thing there. And over the past two games, he's taken eight shots and then 10 shots. And overall in the season, Jamal is leading the team in shots. 22. Jokic is actually third behind Aaron Gordon. He's taking not even 14 a game. And so to me, that was almost like representation. Like, oh, not only do we have the depth, and that's a big part of it, but Jokic is like, oh, he's got it. He's got it going. Let's just feed him and I'll take a step back. And so, like, I almost trust the instincts of Jokic to tell us, like, which way Murray's going to go in a given game and perhaps even in the season.

[B]

It's a great call. Like, nobody wants this version of Jamal Murray more than Nicola Jokic does. And he has been on record, like, when Murray has those sorts of games that, like, he considers Jamal Murray to be their, like, their best player in those games in those moments, like, especially the playoff version of Jamal Murray, like, if they can tap into that on a frequent, regular season basis, they're just going to be one of the juggernaut teams in a league that looks right now very uneven. Like, so many teams that we expected to be good just aren't there out of the gate. Denver is a. There are pluses and minuses even within Jokic's performance. He said some obviously productive across the board, but some defensive stuff that hasn't been great. Some overall showings and moments where I'm like, I want a little more from him, maybe in the balance and the yin and yang of these things also, let's.

[A]

Let's be honest, his jersey is fighting for its life every night out there. Okay, he put a little. Got a little too excited over the off season, I think.

[B]

We don't body shame around here, Justin. This is not what we do on this podcast.

[A]

I think historically, yes, we do, but, okay, maybe so. Look, he's.

[B]

He's still Nicola Jokic. Like, I'm not saying he hasn't played well. I'm just saying there is a very delicate balance between them that I am eager to See, with the, like, a maxed out version of Murray and a maxed out version of Jokic, just how dangerous that can be.

[C]

They. They are at the foot of a mountain right now, dare I say a rocky mountain. And I think that they. That's the mountain on there.

[A]

He just walked it all the way back.

[C]

No, no. They. He definitely. I'm sure that. Yo. You mentioned it. And Jokic doesn't want to be. I'm sure he doesn't have the. The insistence to, like, exert his will at all times on to get his own offense. He's willing to sort of move and regress in whatever way is necessary and I'm sure he knows that. He's aware that they are at the foot of a mountain right now. And getting Jamal right and leaning into that is very, very important. And yeah, I mean, Jokic, if left, he doesn't want to have to be Nelson in the Simpsons, being the quarterback, throwing it and catching. Throwing it to himself and catching it in the end zone. Funny, because they. They're kind of built similarly. But I just think that, yeah, I think it's really, really important with, like, the ebb and the flow of the season to lean into it. So I, I agree with that. On. On, yeah. Instincts being indicative.

[B]

If he can be the guy at this point who is picking his spots while leading the league in assists and rebounding, that's. That's a great life for Nicola Jokic and a good way to just kind of pace him through the season as well.

[A]

He's also slowly starting to look in. Jonas, in contrast, is starting to look more and more like each other where, like, he does the weird, like, yeah, like, I think. I think he's, like, putting on some weight because maybe he's trying to do some sort of, like, swap situation. Like, you know, when twins will just, like, go in each other's class and whatnot. Don't know which one is out there. But Yoke, it's just like he grows this scraggly, like, chin beard, like he's Jafar or something.

[B]

And.

[A]

And then Jonas obviously does that just by choice. And so I'm most wondering if, like, you know, they're feeding into each other that way. Just like how my cool style is just replicated by what you're doing.

[B]

This is what I was going to ask, like, over the course of this season, are we going to look at a before and after and all of a sudden, like, I look like Kyle Mann by the end of the year, like, I'm rocking the hats on A daily basis, the beard is coming through even thicker and more resplendent than ever.

[A]

You want to be a beard, bro? You could be. We could do tri beards.

[B]

I feel like. I feel like that's really asking for the three white guys on a podcast commentary if we look that much alike. But I'm. I'm fearful of it.

[C]

I will say there was a moment in the game where maybe it was last night where I just kind of looked up from looking down and some. A big guy, a big European guy was tipping the ball to himself under the basket. And I was like, oh, that's Valentine. You know, have you. You have to kind of get used to the optics of who's on the floor with him. And I was like, oh, that's Valentunas. I was like, wow, so that supports your theory, JV. I'm just saying.

[A]

There you go. It's 100% true. That Kyle confirms. All right, next one on the list, the Chicago Bulls, who, I should mention, I did not nominate for this exercise. If anything, I was going to ease off and just let the public have it, because personally, I'm finding the fervor going on about the Bulls 3 and O start right now. I'm just sitting back here being like, I saw these guys in a club in Seattle, like, in 1990. You know, like, this must have been, like what it was to be a member of the cast of singles. And you see all these guys just coming into your city wanting to get a part of what you built, because the Bulls number one on defense, three and a guy like one of four undefeated teams, suggesting you're a Bulls hip.

[B]

You.

[C]

Are you acting like you were early on the Bulls three and O start? Is that what you're saying?

[A]

Or like you were, like, early? I was in on them when they were under.500 last year.

[B]

Yes. Justin has been in these streets. In his defense, should he have been out in those streets? I warned him not to be. I said, justin, please don't. Please come home. We're worried about you. But he just. Bull Streets is where you are. Oh, yeah.

[A]

Specifically, I just think that they're fun. Like, they just play a very entertaining style of basketball. And especially last season, after LaVine was out and everything was flowing and everything was going well, it is real, like, empty calories, like, game. You're just going to want to turn on if you just want to sit back and enjoy yourself. And I think that's what's been happening thus far this season. They've only been playing thrilling games Thus.

[B]

Far, I gotta say, and this is hard for me to admit, you were right, Justin.

[A]

You were right. Yeah.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Let's get a drop of that one.

[C]

I was gonna say, there's nothing says basketball fun to me than flowing with Zach Levine. Yeah, man, that's exactly where my mind goes.

[B]

Well, flowing with Trey Jones is more fun, it turns out.

[C]

Euphoric.

[B]

Yeah, like I have found myself quite admiring the way, like they are the most committed team to moving the ball early in the season. Like the way the flow, the confidence, like the commitment to how they want to play. We're seeing it with Miami, we're seeing it with Chicago. Like these teams that are coming in with a deal of continuity and also just like a resolve and understanding that, like, hey, we don't have that guy and we need to find a way to cut and triangulate. Offense has been really fun to watch, has been quite productive and successful. It's also just like a good way to compensate for the fact that if you're going to play a bunch of like iffy shooters at the same time, there's got to be some sleight of hand in there, right? Like you got to razzle dazzle them a little bit. You got to keep it moving and distracting so that they don't realize, oh wait, I don't have to like stick in Trey's jersey or Josh Giddy's jersey or even modest Bouzilles, his jersey. Apparently you do need to stick in IO Dasumu's jersey. Was just playing the, the basketball of his life right now in a way that is exhilarating to me personally. I just, I love the way that Billy Donovan has these guys playing.

[C]

Yeah, they're an interesting statistical team. You're talking about them realizing the way that they have to play because I was, I was looking at the. They are moving the ball fifth and fifth in the league in assists and they are really getting to the rim. So they're driving the ball a whole lot. They have such an incredible lack of dribble pull up shooting in their offense. They are dead last in the league in dribble jumpers. And I was like, that's interesting. Is that a recent thing? They were very close to last last year. But they have guys that can hit, you know, shots after a pass pass and their top four guys aren't shooting them at like incredible volume. So that's one thing where you're like, okay, is this just like wild shooting variants that's going on? Giddy as we know, can not going to be shooting dribble, pull up threes, but he's for almost 42%. Vuch is at almost 55, Tre Jones is almost at. He's at 57 and then IO is at 60. But most of those guys are taking around four or five a game and it falls off a cliff after that. So you know, they just can't really dictate the wind the way the wind blows. They don't have a player that can do that at this point. So. But they're really rebounding, you know, they really attack the glass and they're trying to get out and transition when they can. And yeah, you're right. There's just buy in which you know, I'm sure for, for the Bulls if you like. Look at the, if you zoom out and look at the macro of the past three years of this team. They were 39 and 43 two years in a row. And then. And then, yeah, and then they won one more game. And I was, I was. I've been rewatching the Wire lately and I was watching season three and I just saw the stringer bell rant about 40 degree days. You know, don't nobody got shit to say about a 40 degree day. The Bulls have a lot of 40 degree day, you know, years. Yeah. So it almost goes. Lines up perfectly. But yeah. So something to be excited about for sure.

[A]

Listen, if I'm being seriously now, like one of the things that has appealed to me about the Bulls is that they're.

[C]

Was I not being serious?

[B]

Well, he wasn't being serious.

[C]

Yeah, he sits in his $2 basketball costume.

[A]

Really serious. Let's get serious guys. It's just the blueprint has always spoken to me about like how the game is trending. Right. It's just big athletes who could pass, triple shoot, they're playing with pace. Defense is feeding transition like the chalk outline of how teams are being successful. As we talked about in the last pod, you don't have a star. These are the type of teams that are, are really. This is how they're. They're playing nowadays. The problem has always just been the talent in order to fill in there and. But so far this season, things are just going well enough in order to build results. I think they've also just had some. Not luck, but they, they've pulled some games out of the dirt, including that game, the Hawks the other night. I think honestly we need to put some respect on our guy Nick Levous, who a big part of this is their defense and we should talk about this Because I think we did one of these last year, Rob. And like maybe around the same time or mid season, we do this bit a lot. And their defense was popping and I still couldn't figure it out. I can't now. But at the very least, rebounding wise.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like they're, they're ending possessions and Vucevic is a big part of this. And I should mention, in our top 100 voting, only two people voted for Nicola Vucevich as a top 100 player. This guy was one of them and he's proven me right.

[C]

Who's the other? Can we out them? Rob, did you not. I'm going to facilitate the argument here. Rob, did you not? Why or why not?

[B]

I did. I honestly don't remember at this point.

[C]

He was wishy washy. You are lukewarm. Spit you from my mouth. Yeah, I.

[A]

Look, I looked it up. It was bill.

[B]

The. The 90 to 110 zone is a lot of like, okay, I guess it could be this guy, but also that guy. But also definitely not this guy. It's. It's a bit of a mess up there. You have to respect the way he's played, though.

[C]

If we're doing the. I did it on the last segment here, I'll do it again. I mean, the fact that they picked off a couple teams that are underperforming, you know, they got the magic by 12. They got the Hawks and the Pistons, who both are kind of having problematic starts. This is just Devil's advocate. I'm not trying to deflate the balloon. I'm just saying, what do you make of that in terms of gauging the. Is this a thing?

[A]

If you look at the names on the schedule, they don't read as bad teams, but those are all three teams that are really struggling to find them themselves.

[B]

Yeah, but. But to me, that's the difference. Right. Is like the Bulls are not struggling to find themselves. They have limitations in terms of their roster. They don't have that star. I. I think this is where you and I have been further apart. Jv, as far as the Bulls experience is like, you liked all the momentum of how they were playing and the style and kind of like what they were trying to accomplish. I like that stuff in previous seasons, but with the previous personnel, it felt like some of the times all that movement is just like a lot of split cuts that go to absolutely nowhere. It's like there's not actually a productive end to their offense. Like they're getting theoretically the right shots, and yet sometimes it's the guy you don't want taking the right shot. This team feels a little bit different. I think that some of it's just like the young players getting better. Some of it's the gradual additions of guys like Tre Jones over the course of last season. Some of it's, you know, Pat Williams having his head screwed on a little more tightly on a game to game basis, which is nice. Some of it is booch and some of it is that defensive rebounding. And it's the idea that like even when the offense does hit the inevitable lulls as any team without a go to all star will, they have something they can fall back on defensively. I think it is a little fluky in the three point percentage stuff like opponents are not going to shoot 26% from three all year. That's not going to happen. But the Bulls are proving to be more than just a finesse team and I think the defensive rebounding is a good example of that. I think the fact that this team has like zero rim protection and yet are showing a little more fight at the point of attack, are showing a little more fight on the perimeter in like a very responsible, stable, we're not going to gamble too much kind of way. Just like keep your guy in front of you, keep the shell, keep the structure. Basic fundamental basketball. And I think part of the reason they're able to get away with all this like tons of offensive movement, good defensive energy is Billy Donovan is just like cycling through these guys like short stints. There are eight players playing 20 or more minutes a game and that's not even including like the Jalen Smith, Julian Phillips types who are kind of eking into the rotation. They just have like a lot of zest in the way that they're playing right now in a way that again is like clearly effective and I think will be clearly effective to a degree all season.

[C]

Can I ask a broader question about the Bulls please, permission. If you're going to start from the starting point of, of a primary handler. Because I was watching, I was looking at Josh efficient Josh Giddey's efficiencies and they're not what you would think they would be in some spots in terms of ball screens. And I'm like, man, and I was going through and watching a lot of the clips and I was like if somebody could just make a freaking shot that like really penalizes him a whole lot. But it got me thinking about the broader philosophy of from the starting point of if your primary guy is not a pull up shooter you kind of get in a position where I. Because if you have a pull up shooter like a Cade Cunningham or a Luca, I'm just pulling these guys who are bigger guards. Your first thought is, okay, get him a lob threat. But if you have somebody that can't shoot, you're like, all right, we probably should try to get somebody that could shoot threes at the five position. Vuzovic. Okay. But then that creates defensive issues that you kind of have to go ahead and figure out too. Because most stretch bigs, I would say most, most, most elite rim protectors are not going to be three point shooters. It's usually either one or the other. So you have to go and get athletic guys. I'm just, do you see what I'm saying? There's just like a cycle that you automatically put yourself into with the roster construction of a non dribble pull up shooter who has all these implied roster things that they need. I'm just wondering, is it possible to get warmer than a 40 degree day or are we just constantly going to be in this state of just like, do you enjoy 40 degrees feels pretty good compared to 20 degrees, but it's not 70 degrees. Like, I'm just kind of wondering where, how do you get out of that if you have a, if you have a Josh Giddy as your primary guy? I've always brought a question.

[B]

This is the question with the Bulls every day of the year.

[A]

I've always, I think honestly, quietly they've made the shift to acknowledging at the very least they need injections of talent in order to do anything differently. The problem is they just backload their roster with guys, as we're saying, the Trey Jones is dio de sumnuz. Like they're almost like too qualified and they're too deep in these like average to slightly below average rotation players that they're doing too well. But like I found like just getting their draft pick back, a big declaration of at the very least an intent to want to just pad with like lottery talent. The big thing with Giddy, for me, my defensive giddy has always been like, if he is getting paid $25 million a year and he is one of your guys, that's great because he does magical things as a passer. He's one of the most inventive pastors in the game. He literally spun through a double in order to split the double last night. And I was like, that's fucking incredible. And he's big. And as we're saying like the rebounding advantage at the Very least is going to spark their break where they want to get out and run. And so like, he's a helpful player, but if you look at him as your primary, that's not going to work. We should mention Kobe White. Not here as well. He's probably closer.

[B]

Like, dude, all this without Kobe White is so crazy.

[C]

That's.

[A]

But I think, I think if you were to give them truth serum, they would say like, oh, we need a star. The problem is like, how do you get that and do you have to switch things up to Jerry rig your team to that once you have it and all this beautiful movement actually goes to waste? I don't know, but I, I don't disagree with what you're saying.

[B]

No, like the big picture stuff about the Bulls is still what it is. It's just that the line has moved a little bit and especially in this year's Eastern Conference, if you play this way and this confidently and this consistently within what you do, maybe you're getting yourself more like, more squarely into like the six seed conversation. Right? Maybe you're edging out of the play and into something a little more secure. If they can maintain this like, caliber of play for a longer stretch, we'll see. But philosophically, Josh Giddy is just one of the funkiest fits in the entire league and will continue to be the off ball stuff in terms of how teams guard or don't guard. Him as a shooter is going to be a constant problem even when you put two ball handlers on the floor and have the kind of success Chicago has been able to have early in the season. And I hear everything you're saying, Kyle, about like, what kind of big do you want to play him with? The difference for me, for Josh Giddey relative to guys like Kaden Luka, who I agree, you want to pair with a lob threat. He doesn't have the, like, get around the defender, get the edge, get the corner, get the shoulder on the guy, speed and even like craftiness. It's all kind of like wiggling his way through a drive in a way that is much more difficult to throw a lob off of that. So he needs the space almost more than he needs the lob. And yet him needing the space presents all of the issues defensively that you already talked about.

[A]

I think the bigger question we should be asking is has Tre Jones shut up the power rankings of the Jones bros.

[B]

I have no argument to the contrary.

[A]

It's been a. Yeah, it's been a.

[B]

Quiet couple years for Tyus Jones a lot of like, oh, this should be a big deal. And then in Phoenix, it was not a big deal. In Orlando, it's helped. We'll see. I have hope for him as a Magic yet.

[C]

Huge, Huge. I'm a ball knower. Opportunity, like, land rush with the Tyus Jones.

[A]

You remember that?

[C]

Or it was like, oh, yeah, I like Tyus Jones.

[B]

Do you like Ty Jones?

[C]

You know, it's a lot of that turnover ratio. Yeah.

[B]

But is Trey the new frontier? Like, should we try to get ahead of this?

[A]

It's the new model. He's been waiting in the wings since. We are being nice to each other. Though, I should mention Midas Pizzellas, like, hasn't played well, I would say. But there are moments where it's just like, he's clearly an athletic freak. He had the, like, the. He was just in the air and decided to throw it behind his back dunk. Like, he does things every game, like two to three plays where you're like, oh, that guy is something.

[C]

Yeah, behind the back dunk. Are you one of those people very. That always had a problem with that? I'm like, is it behind his back? I just. I'm like, is he, like, putting it in by his lumbar? I'm just like, it's a reverse. What do we. I don't know. I've just always. I don't want to nitpick, but I do, you know, I'm just, you know, you do.

[A]

We can go with that.

[C]

Also just want to bust Justin's balls however possible, but, you know, there we go.

[B]

Well, I'm for that as well, but, like, I have. Look, Modest Bazilas looks like a young player, and he looks like a young player who's still figuring out how he fits into all this. Right. Like the flow, the position. Yet another guy who, again, is, like, not the most confident shooter in the world, is definitely more of a slasher at this point, but has to feel that stuff out. And I, like, I am squarely fine with everywhere he is developmentally right now. He's giving the Bulls some of that. Some of that juice, some of that unpredictability that an offense like that needs. I think the problem you run into when you're just passing the ball around, keeping everybody involved as much as this is, everything feels very cookie cutter. Right. It's just like simple pass into simple decision into quick choice. All that stuff is good, but you need somebody who's going to back foot defenders. And Modest Bouzelis almost like, cannot help but back Foot defenders and I'm going.

[C]

To slow close to him a lot more, you know what I mean? He's shown so much of that pop to the basket. You know, it's. If he can really make a leap in that area, it's going to, it's going to be big for them.

[A]

Yeah, Kyle, I mean I'm sure you knew more about him than us coming into the draft. Like where he was then to now. Like what's the biggest jump for him?

[C]

I mean his athleticism is translated a lot more than I thought it would. I mean I thought a lot of the stuff surrounding the shooting, it's just shooting just can really define, inflate and neutralize. Especially if you don't have something to lean back on. Like Giddy does. Like Giddy has the playmaking and the sort of slow it down, get into wiggling in the lane things that he can add and it's just you're trying to, you're trying to figure out a way to bolster up all the little fun like micro skill things that he can do that I did love when he was with the G League. But like we were saying, I don't know, maybe you just kind of think of the other areas where he can add that is you know, as a cutter, things like that. It's just going to be that, that alone I think is going to kind of dictate how quickly he, he, he develops. Honestly for me, my opinion, I don't.

[A]

Want to keep going down the entire Bulls roster. But yeah, Bisumu looks jacked. Definitely. We missed him on the muscle.

[C]

He's huge.

[A]

Yeah, I think for what it is, like maybe he's just more physical. His drives just feel like they're, they're have way more force to them than they did before. To the point where like he stiff armed a guy and I was like that's not legal. And then he did it again and they just let it go again. I'm like, I guess he could stiff arm guy. He's just Derek Henry now.

[B]

Look, sometimes it is a lot that forearm shiver like some guys get away with it. It's just like a part of the.

[A]

Game, just the stars. Like IO Dsumu.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

Different whistle.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. Well, speaking of a star studded team, let's talk about the Knicks playing differently this year. So last season, 27th in three point attempts per game, 34.1. This season all the way up to third, 44.8. Things have gone well last night probably when they played the Bucks, maybe Not a prime example of that, Rob. They strike me as the type of team where it's like one of those Oprah or Maury makeover shows where you have this really manly man getting a full makeover to what they're doing, where it's just got to get a little bit more refined, something a little bit more attractive out there. And probably in the Milwaukee game was an example of, of the growing pains, I think, of that exercise.

[B]

The manly man has gotten the makeover, but now he needs to figure out, like, what beard oil is all about. Like, what the. What's the right moisturizer to use. Like, there's the day to day reality of playing in this style of offense. That is. It's very clear these guys just like don't have a feel for it yet. And that's okay. It's extremely early. It is a dramatically different style, as you said, Justin, in terms of the three point attempts, but also just in terms of the flow of how they're trying to play under Mike Brown. So you would expect some growing pains. They also have Cat, who is just, I mean, one of the most fascinating and perplexing players in the league on an annual basis, but he's working through a quad injury right now. We saw Jalen Brunson have what looked to be an incredibly painful groin hamstring situation developing. I don't know how he continued to play against the Bucs, but he did. Continued to score, continued to drive, did his damnedest. Again, not quite there in the grand scheme of things for New York. I believe in the big picture of what they're trying to accomplish, but I think you're starting to see, okay, the comfort of guys within these kind of malleable roles. I think you will hear grousing over the first half of this season about, like, I'm not quite sure, like, what my touches are. I'm not quite sure, like, what I'm supposed to be doing in these situations or those. That is all kind of part of this. That. That is part of, you know, the learning curve of being in more of a fluid offense. And the payoff for that is the kinds of shots they're starting to create but don't necessarily feel super comfortable taking just yet.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, you heard it's a tough. It's a tough shift from the way that they've played in the past because we know that Carl. Carl showed signs in Minnesota of being able to sort of contort, you know, wide steps, wiggle around people, make passes. We've seen some of this stuff, but he falls into this trap and maybe Brunson's pace has been a thing that has sort of contributed to him being lured into playing more of this slow it down sort of a thing. And when you have a shooter like him and you have the, the types of wings that they have, it just makes more sense to pivot to something that is, you know, like the speed, the closeout speed, the standard closeout speed in the NBA has like gone up so much. If you watch like an NBA game now compared to like 2009 and 1999, guys are flying around out there in a way that is pretty remarkable that I don't even know if it fully gets like appreciated, digested all the. So everything is just more live, so decisions are faster. So I think that's what Mike Brown, it has like the pitchfork in, in the rear end of this collective team and you heard him in the post game last night just kind of like stay the course, you know, because in the second half, or maybe it was the fourth quarter, I had to written down but they produced more spot up attempts than Milwaukee. They just didn't make them. So I, you got to just kind of have a consistent messaging of like we are on, on pace here to do what we want to do. You know, last season they were 18th in the league in passes per game and they're up to, through three games. They're up to fifth so far in this year in this season. And they had an interesting stretch. I think it might have been the second quarter where Tyler Kolik is really doing a good job of supporting this idea. I'm not saying he's shouldering it. I'm just saying he's a good representation of what they're trying to do. Advancing the ball.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Getting it up into the like 21 second range. Like they're getting a lot out of the shot clock.

[B]

Like he also looks like he's drowning.

[C]

Out there sometimes, but he's getting off of it. I'm not giving him credit. I'm just saying they had a lineup out there that was like Kolik, Cat, Mikhail, OG and Shamet. You could, you know, mix some things in there. It's just kind of, I, I, I've liked some of the lineups that they've thrown out there. It's just been more fun to watch, honestly.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I think, I think change was necessary. I think if you watch the playoffs, there was a lot riding on Jalen Brunson just making things happen. Pivoting, pivoting, pivoting, pivoting to his way to, to a bucket in crunch time or even beyond that. I also think one of the early trends that we haven't talked about is just like how many teams are willing to full court pressure, especially your lead ball handler. Like there was this cool graphic the other day. I, I, I forgot who it was, I apologize. But like the pickup points are pretty much by and large higher for every single team. Number one on that list, by the way, the Portland Trailblazers. Just an FYI on that one.

[B]

That's a swear jar.

[C]

The jar. I'm deaf now.

[A]

Yeah, but if he's, if there's gonna be more of an effort to wear down Brunson, which if you were planning a defense, I would certainly put that at the top of my list. There's going to be more pressure on decision making from the other guys from Cat from Bridges and all those other guys to democratize what they're doing in order to have more of an overall approach. And they've done that thus far. Surprisingly enough, a lot of the three point volume has come primarily from OG and Brunson. And like some, and adding some of the role players that you mentioned, like Cole Kaiser, just going to shoot more by nature. But it has been surprising, Rob, that like I guess probably OG sees the opportunity to shoot more and he's just like, sign me the fuck up. Don't like, doesn't ask questions.

[B]

Yeah, I mean the shots aren't like falling for him as consistently as you or he would like just yet, but he's going to be the beneficiary of a lot of that movement. Guys like him are going to find themselves open. And Brunson too. It makes sense in a way that his attempts would go up because if you are running a Jalen Brunson ISO or pick and roll heavy offense or just kind of like doing all this action just to get him the ball. Jalen Brunson wants to go downhill. He's a good pull up shooter, but he's also small and his natural momentum is going towards the basket. And so the more you are moving things around, the more it's like getting to the paint from Deuce McBride and spraying out, the more likely you're going to get Jalen Brunson spot up opportunities, which I think are an important part of the diet here, I think are going to be really valuable for the Knicks going forward. I'm with you that I just like the balance of how they're trying to play and I like the guys that they're trying to play. By and large, the elephant in the room is that Josh Hart has not looked very comfortable playing this way as of yet. And I would say his minutes on the floor have been kind of an active problem to the sort of spacing and flow. They're trying to orient themselves to hate Josh Hart.

[C]

I don't hate Josh Tyler Kolek too. You're just a wet blanket.

[B]

Well, look, Tyler Kolik is what he is and like, you know, scrapped by to make the team good for Tyler Kolak. Him getting rotation mids is a huge win for him. Josh Hart is just one of these guys though, who I think the more predictable style that the Knicks played with lent itself to more predictable offensive rebounding, crashing opportunities, knowing when to cut, knowing how to operate within that system. But like he is like anytime you look at one of these games, anytime you look at the big picture stuff for the Knicks, like the, the plus minus for Josh Hart is one of the overwhelming negatives on this team right now. And that's. I believe that will change. But as far as like what is kind of mucking things up right now, Josh Hart's lack thereof in terms of spacing I think is part of that formula.

[A]

I mean, Hart is basically a power forward in a shooting guard's body. And I think that's one of the big like just overarching existential questions with this team is like, clearly they've decided that they want to play with two bigs to the point where they were playing Hawk Purdy next to Kat to start some of these games. Unfortunately went away from that. But we should, and we should mention like Cat was pretty bad last night. Part of this is because he's being asked to be the Mitchell Robinson role. Robinson hasn't played this far this season. That's concerning to say the least, considering his injury history, but also Cat dealing with his quad injury. And so there's that. And so yeah, it's just like I, I think Hart is going to find it tough to fit in, especially because og, you know, he can, he can guard bigs. He was practically guarding centers at times. And so they're pretty beefy in that front court. And so Hart is being asked to fill the gaps and he's something he will do. He's frothing at the mouth in order to do all the little stuff, the hustle stuff, the rebounding stuff. But I think what they're. We're saying overall, Kyle, is like, we actually, we need a little bit more nuance, we need a little bit more skill in Here because like, in order to get that shooting up, we need guys who are actually going to take those and make those.

[C]

Yeah. You know, watching some of their attempts, I, I went through and I was. When you see a trend as, as we're seeing with the Knicks here, you'll. I'll go like pick one, one specific play type and just like watch the types of shots over and over again. Just because I think, I think open threes are sort of an indicator of process for a team and it's kind of one of the quicker ways to go and see especially. And so when you're watching them, I'm like, I don't hate the shots they're getting. Some of it is just overall variance. I think, like I saw plenty where I was like, I think these are going to be shots that they can make. So hopefully Hart can just be a part of that. And it's odd because his DNA as a player has always been to play in these high, you know, spread out, faster systems. So I don't, I don't have a lot of pessimism about it now. Will it, will it, Will he regress in terms of maybe his overall involvement? I think that's possible. But you know, I trust that he'll figure something out. But he may have. It may just be a case of he fit a little bit better with what they were trying to do last year. Yeah, it's both. Yeah.

[A]

Another encouraging sign on top of that is that they're actually playing a bench this year.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So over the first four games last season, they played bench players 173 minutes. This year, this season 330, they played eight different players off the bench. A little noise there. Just because Hart was injured, Robinson has been injured. So they're trying some stuff, but basically double the amount of players coming off the bench and actually participating in the NBA game. Can you guys on top of that name the two top bench players for the first four games for the Knicks last year? They're not on the team anymore.

[B]

I mean, for sure. And even the guys that they eventually came into by the end of the season, your Landry Shamets and your Dylan Wrights, like, weren't a part of that mix. Who would they have been bringing off the bench at the start of the season?

[A]

One is a legend.

[B]

Wait, a Knicks legend or just an overall legend?

[A]

Overall legend for several teams.

[C]

Taj Gibson.

[A]

That's a good guess, but it was Campaign. And Jericho Sims.

[B]

Jericho Sims, welcome.

[A]

That's right. And now they're Clarkson, Hart, Hock Purdy Kolik, Mohammed Diarra also got a single minute last night. I didn't know he Diawara, but okay, there we go.

[C]

Good for him.

[B]

I gotta say, the Yabu Saleh minutes so far also have not. He has not covered himself in glory. Uh, we're, we're. We're waiting patiently for the true Yabu to show. I think he'll get there.

[A]

All right, we wrap it there. Do you guys have any Halloween plans you want to talk about? You guys handing out candy to the youngins?

[B]

I feel like this is a Kyle question. What do we got family wise? What do we work? Do we have a whole coordinated costume?

[C]

Our neighborhood is pretty dead, so it's not, it's. It's not very active here on Helen.

[A]

We even.

[C]

We've sick candy out and nobody takes it. So it's been like that for a few years now. It's kind of lame. But we're gonna, we're gonna go out to a neighborhood around here. You know, I was telling you guys, my sort of standard move is I just keep a skeleton jumpsuit. And I'm always kind of like I'm, I'm part of the party, right? But I'm, I kind of. That's as far as I go. So Julian's gonna be a vampire, I think. But the great thing about kids is they'll just call last second audible and they'll just be something totally different. Last year we had. He went with two other kids that were all Spider man and we did the meme and it was fun and, you know, uh, I don't know. Yeah, that's about, that's about the extent of it. You got any parties you're going to? Sicky Sicky, Sicky Mahoney.

[B]

You know, I'm to the surprise of no one, not much of a Halloween guy, but maybe that needs to change. You know, I'm considering. Maybe this is the year that I really get into like a curse or a hex of some kind that we just, you know, get all the witches together and really make something happen. Well, if you guys have any candidates on who should be cursed or hexed, like, I'm, I'm open to suggestions.

[C]

Go find some cursed relics somewhere. Go to a vintage store to take your chances on that. Oh, yeah, maybe get a poltergeist thing going on.

[A]

Yeah, I'm, I'm not giving out candy partly because I don't want to have any interactions with anyone that's younger than like 25. And foremost two, I'm going to see the never Nuggets play against the Portland Trailblazers. You know what? You know what's scary to me, Jokic? Having to face that defense. You know, those high pickup points.

[B]

I think this is another swear jar, honestly. I know it's just your plans, but still.

[A]

Still, it's worth it. All right. We'll be back on Sunday night. I promise this time. We will be back on Sunday night. Thank you to Isaiah Blakeley. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We will talk to you next time.