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J-Dub’s Shining Moment Has OKC on the Brink of a Title. Plus, Does the Desmond Bane Trade Make Orlando a Contender? | Group Chat
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- [00:00]
Justin Varier
This episode is brought to you by Indeed. Slow and steady doesn't always win the race. Like when Phil Jackson really needed a shot in Game 2 of the NBA Finals, he just gave the ball to Kobe and let him cook. And that helped win the game. If you're looking to hire someone fast, use Indeed Indeed sponsored jobs get 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. Speed up your hiring process right now with a 75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com ringermba that's indeed.com ringermba Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Today's episode is brought to you by Amazon Business. Every business starts with an idea. How can you go from daydreamer to industry leader? Amazon Business accelerates your journey with smart business buying. Get everything you need to grow in one familiar place. From office supplies to IT essentials to maintenance tools. Amazon Business takes the buying experience you know and love from Amazon plus tools that help you save costs and and make insight based decisions. Ready to bring your business to life. Learn how@amazonbusiness.com.
- [01:15]
Rob Mahoney
Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varier. And joining me, I feel like we need to bring the pregame introductions back in honor of the NBA Finals. Doing the same. So we got the man in the middle of the Rob Mahoney, who we got from the University of Guatemala. Big Waz. Welcome, gentlemen. NBA Finals game five.
- [01:36]
Big Waz
Man, I thought the man in the middle was Ben Cruz. I guess that's Rob Mahoney these days.
- [01:43]
Ben Cruz
It's me now. I took on the job.
- [01:45]
Big Waz
I'm happy to be here, man. Happy to be back from Guatemala. I know my bros miss me. I know the groupies out there missed me. But I'm refreshed. Um, had a good time. Beautiful wedding. One of the most beautiful weddings of my life. I kid you not. I cried about three times. Not a shame to say not cried, but the tear ducts sure did. No tears spilled, but the ducks definitely started to get filled up more than a few times. Um, so yeah. Man shouts to Sidney and Jared once.
- [02:13]
Ben Cruz
Again, how early on are the. Are the tears? Are the ducks tearing up?
- [02:18]
Big Waz
So they pulled a move that I have never seen at a wedding before. And I've been to enough of these where I've seen kind of them all.
- [02:27]
Ben Cruz
I didn't think they were. I thought we were just kind of remixing the old moves.
- [02:31]
Big Waz
Before Jared read his vows to Sidney, he wanted to do something special for his deceased dad. And he played his dad's favorite song and he said, this is anytime I want to feel close to my dad. I play this song and I was like, yo, what the, bro?
- [02:48]
Rob Mahoney
Get dusty. Yeah.
- [02:49]
Big Waz
And everybody, he was like, he encouraged everybody get up and dance and all of that. I was like, okay, this is. There's a lot going on at this wedding tonight. And so it was just a beautiful ceremony. But yeah, and my feelings, beautiful.
- [03:01]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I mean, I saw that the wedding. Also, the shout out for the wedding got picked up.
- [03:07]
Big Waz
Got picked up, dude. Okay, can I explain what happened on that?
- [03:11]
Ben Cruz
Please do. Yeah.
- [03:13]
Big Waz
So I shout out Sydney's wedding on here. She gets hit up by an old colleague on LinkedIn.
- [03:22]
Ben Cruz
The LinkedIn DM.
- [03:23]
Big Waz
Yes, a LinkedIn DM. That's wild to be like, yo, dude, I was listening to this podcast and I'm pretty sure you're getting married in Guatemala. Cause you just got shouted out. And he was like, it's a big podcast. It's a national podcast.
- [03:37]
Ben Cruz
He's right.
- [03:37]
Big Waz
Wow. This guy did a good job of bigging up our product. So. Shouts to him. I forget his name, but shouts to him for alerting the bride to the shout out.
- [03:49]
Rob Mahoney
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass. And off the court, you still need teammates who are there when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in. With agents and online tools to help you find the coverage you need. You could focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. Well, if that wasn't enough of a emotional roller coaster for you, we got yet another instance of that in game five. I swear to God, the Indiana Pacers like, they keep surprising you in new and fascinating ways. But Rob, shout to the Thunder, closing the door definitively. And J Dub being the one, I guess, holding the door, forcing it shut. Whatever you want to say.
- [04:39]
Ben Cruz
Holy hell. From J Dub. I mean, I feel like we've said this a couple of times running throughout these playoffs. Obviously he's had up and down moments. He's had games where he hasn't played up to the level of a second star necessarily. And then he's had games like this, probably the best all around game of his career in the biggest possible moment in a. In a finals, turning Game 5. Tremendous stuff from him. And I, I thought in particular was like, J Dub played, he scored in so many different ways. He was a pick and roll maestro all night. He was driving hard, he was cutting hard. The. The operative word in there is hard. Like, he just went in there with force every single time, and he was finishing and playing through people all night in a way that, again, frankly, stars and superstars do on these kinds of stages.
- [05:21]
Big Waz
So by the time he made his seventh shot, ESPN did one of those weird video game graphics that they do where it's like a virtual J Dub and showing, like, basically his shot chart. And six of his first seven makes were at the cup, either a dunk or a layup, and one of them was a three. And so I just thought that was just so telling about the type of game that he had, because at first, he did get a lot of jumpers up and it wasn't falling. But it's not just that he was getting a cup. It was the nature of the plays. It was like, in transition. It's like cutting off a backdoor. It's indy scrambling on a pick and roll. Kind of not sure how they wanted to cover J Dub as the pick and roll initiator and him just beating them to the punch over and over again. And we said this coming into, like, these are two teams who pride themselves on beating their opponent to the punch. And tonight was the first time I felt like the Pacers were just consistently just. They couldn't get out and run. They were getting beat in transition. It just felt like OKC had all of the energy, all of the momentum, all of the just oomph, for lack of a better word. And then, I don't know, somehow the freaking fourth quarter happens in the four point. I don't understand this. But just. Just before, like, I'm watching this game and I was thinking about something, I was like, you know, you ever. To, like, two or three women talking, and you think to yourself, I don't know shit about women, right? Like, you talking and you're like, I've been knowing women my whole life. I've been close to women. I don't know anything about these people. That's how I feel about basketball. Watching the Pacers, it's like, I don't know shit about basketball. That's how I feel when I'm watching the Pacers play.
- [07:06]
Rob Mahoney
Honestly, I just want to watch Rob react to that. Just watch his face contort to see where you were going.
- [07:12]
Big Waz
And if we would go, what's the deal with women?
- [07:19]
Ben Cruz
If. If the Indiana Pacers are the women. Talking of basketball to Woz, Woz is the Indiana Pacers of podcasting. To me, where I am, I am just being taken for a roller coaster.
- [07:29]
Rob Mahoney
We'Re so deep into the playoffs right now, I don't even know what up is down and down is up. I'll circle back around like. So it felt like, to Rob's point, that this was kind of coming like he had 26 in game three, he had the 27 in game four. And I remember specifically Rob trying to shoehorn J Dub back into conversations after we'd already bypassed the topic.
- [07:52]
Big Waz
He was that good.
- [07:54]
Rob Mahoney
We get it. But this, I mean, part of it was because the Pacers had made such a concerted effort to put SGA in the Hannibal Lecter, like just jumpsuit. And so he needed to step up in order for them to get to this point. This was just unbelievable. I also felt like the fact that the transition plays were popping early, Rob, like the fact that they were turnovers and they were getting run outs as a result of that played into J Dub's best skills. Because as you mentioned, there's something, dare I say, Denny Abdia esque about the way that he just kind of runs. He goes downhill. He's not like a supreme break you off the dribble guy, but one he has like almost a no break straight ahead, no hesitation, ability to just go to the cup. And he was finished making these high finishes too, which can kind of come and go. And so he just really had everything going tonight.
- [08:42]
Ben Cruz
I mean, he was super quick off the blocks, right? Like anytime there was even a whiff of a possible turnover, he was off to the races. And that makes a huge difference when you have a player of his size and his athleticism and when he was like going to put people in the basket, right? Like he's going up, not doing, you know, he certainly had his share of like off speed, slow step J Dub finishes and attempts. Like he did some of that, but in transition, he wasn't messing around. Like he was just going straight forward every time in that straight line fashion. You talked about Justin, I don't know about Denny Abdia esque. I feel like that might damning was faint praise. Danny Avdi is quite good, but he's not Jalen Williams. Like, this is the kind of game that to be totally honest, not a lot of players in the NBA are capable of like this sort of all around offensive play, all around defensive play. He's had the kind of series where the Pacers have been like, maybe we don't want to put Pascal Siakam on J Dub because we don't want to have to expend the energy that would be required to deal with that kind of ball handling to deal with that kind of force. But as you mentioned, that's fueled by the turnovers. That's fueled by the fact that, like, you can tell when the Oklahoma City defense is really on its shit, when all of a sudden teams like the Pacers just start passing to nowhere. Like, they just get. They just get stuck and they pick. They either pick up their pivot, they're sliding their midair whatever it is, and they have to throw the ball somewhere. And then all of a sudden it's just like to the top of the floor, no space in particular case, and Wallace is going out for a dunk. I honestly cannot even remember how many possessions for the Pacers died on the vine 25ft from the basket. Never. Basically, like never breaking the three point arc in a meaningful way. That's incredible to do to an offensive this caliber. Like, this is how you pull yourself this close to a title. This is how you have the kind of season that OKC had.
- [10:25]
Big Waz
Yeah, J Dub just, for me, just felt powerful today. Like, he just seemed so much stronger than everybody today. And, you know, like, Justin brings up Denny Abdia. I was reminded honestly of Prime Paul Pierce, a guy who to me has some of the best footwork, the sweetest feat in the history of the NBA, and combined it with being just stronger than every single wing in the NBA. And that's what J Dub felt like tonight. Just special, just dropping 40, incredible efficiency, and more importantly, being the point of attack, offensive creator for a lot of this game where for the first time in the series for me, the Shea rest minutes, I'm like, if I'm okc, I feel like I'm breathing beautifully with Shay on the bench because J Dub is on such a role. I just thought that was just phenomenal for him to step up in that way. And, you know, I think the Pacers have been just, you know, we've said it. Unkillable for how long? I think there's something to OKC's ability to take a punch at this point. The Pacers making this thing close late and OKC still just being like, you know what? I know we've had a terrible game one finish and we've had, you know, these moments in the playoffs where we kind of disappointed ourselves, but we've learned from that and we're now the type of team that could take a punch and hit right back.
- [11:49]
Ben Cruz
Well, let. Let me ask you guys this. I got a text from our friend Kyle Mann about a little, you know, a little development that's been much talked about with the Thunder coming out of game four, which was how much J Dub and Shay were running direct screening action to set up those critical game ceiling possessions at the end of game four.
- [12:05]
Rob Mahoney
Sounds like a fun text thread.
- [12:07]
Ben Cruz
It honestly was a very fun text. Well, the point that he raised was did the Pacers kind of push the Thunder into the next stage of their evolution a bit? Did they nudge them into this, what ultimately could be a really important part of their development, incorporating those guys directly together? And it kept kind of coming up in little bits in this game. It's not something that they run a ton. Obviously they weren't looking to set up Shai in quite the same way because J Dub was rolling. But at the end of the third quarter, they run the inverse of that with Shai screening for J Dub to get him the matchup. They won. It's like this is an action that they have been kind of reluctant to go to or at least maybe just stylistically has not been in their. Their interest set. And yet they have those sorts of things in their back pocket. Like they have the Thunder have all of these evolutions yet to come. And I feel like was when you're talking about this is a team that's like learning how to do some of this stuff as it goes, some of that is unveiling these wrinkles that are there.
- [12:56]
Big Waz
Yeah. And make no mistake about it, these are AP level courses. Right. Like, this isn't, you know, some piss poor competition. This is a Pacer team. Again, like they have been beating people up and when they're not doing that, coming back from huge deficits and doing it anyway. And the Shay and J Dub thing is interesting because again, it's just about putting the defense in the bind. Shay gets the ball, he does a Shay thing, they swing it to J Dub who goes immediately into a pick and roll and the defense has to make a decision. Like, wait, am I going to treat this non Shai Gilgeous Alexander action as the primary action? And it's like, yeah bro, tonight you better. Cause if not, they're going to kill you. And that's what I think happened tonight.
- [13:42]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I was going to say it seems like Shay almost had like a muted 31 points in this game and part of that was just the Pacers game plan, just being able to focus on him and try to take him out. But he was doing so well at chipping in and everything on the fringes both. Like when he did finally get the ball, playmaking for other guys, there was that play where after the J Dub, he missed it, and then they kind of tipped it out to Shay, so he finally had daylight, and then he managed to get it to the teeth of the defense, but kick it out from under the basket to Dort. You swing it back to J Dub for a three. Like, those sorts of kinetics plays were starting to happen whenever he was kind of afforded the opportunity. And then on the defensive side, like, he was getting poke aways, like, in crucial moments in that fourth quarter. And so, if anything, it almost felt like Shai slotted into the J Dub spot in this one, that he could do that, because frankly, he did that for, like, the first half of his career.
- [14:34]
Ben Cruz
It makes it look super easy. Again, this is a great sort of disrupted hierarchy game for the Thunder in lots of ways, as you mentioned, like, a lot of J Dub repetition. A lot of opportunities for him out of the pick and roll with the way Shea was being denied, as you said, Justin. But then you also have, you know, like, Isaiah Hartenstein having, I would say, a huge impact, even though not a big scoring impact. And then you have Aaron Wiggins and Kayson Wallace coming off the bench and having really important games for them. Chad had such a strange one because it's like, not a huge scoring game. But I want. I want to like, come out very clearly about this, that he had a really great game and I think a really great game in particularly defensively, protecting the basket. Always something that Chet does quite well. I also thought he had some, you know, while we're just throwing comps out here, did like the Kevin Garnett thing a little bit in the pick and roll in terms of guarding both guys at once, containing both sides of the pick and roll, stopping the ball without fully switching, but also getting back to Miles Turner and completely cutting off the water with that stuff. It was just like everything was kind of there, and some of it came from the expected places, some of it came from unexpected places. But the Thunder had this sort of malleable formula where they can pull guys in out of the rotation, where they can. Yo, yo. Their usage. And it just. It just can kind of work because their defense works.
- [15:48]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. I also think it made it easier on them on the defense because Halliburton was clearly hobbled. And we should probably talk about that because it seemed like right from the jump, there was, like, reports going into the game, obviously, we had earlier in this series. I think it was more of an ankle. This seemed to be more of a calf based what Shams and other People were reporting. He just wasn't right. Was. And it's kind of a miracle that they actually made this a game. TJ once again, just from the ashes, scoring, I think 13 points in that third quarter, but, like, just not having Halliburton showed, I think in those crucial moments down the stretch.
- [16:22]
Big Waz
Yeah, we went from what, the Halley to where the Halle, Honestly, if we're keeping it a thousand. I had that loaded in the chamber.
- [16:33]
Ben Cruz
Okay, all right, all right.
- [16:35]
Big Waz
I had that one in.
- [16:36]
Ben Cruz
I did.
- [16:37]
Big Waz
That was in the ankle holster. No, he just. Clearly, he just wasn't good enough. Honestly, in my group chats, the Halliburton discourse and sorry to alienate you, Rob, but it reminds me of the Brock Purdy discourse where it's like we go game. The game of, like, is this guy, you know, upper echelon quarterback, should he be getting paid all this money? We basically go the game of, is Halle a superstar? Is he that type of player? Blah, blah, blah. And like, whenever he plays like this, inevitably the skeptics come, you know, howling back. Obviously the guy looked hobbled, but I thought his, whatever the case, whatever caused him to play, the way that he played is directly attributable to why Indy was so sluggish and slow out of the gate. They just never had an inciting incident on offense. Like, nothing to get the Thunder out of their basic shell. How they drew it up, game plan of playing defense. And we started to see a little bit of it because in the second quarter, this thing should have gotten away from Indiana and it was Nemhard and Siakam and the usual suspects, Neesmith keeping them sort of within striking distance. And then the third quarter comes and it's TJ McConnell of all people, to just turning the game on its head. Like, what could have been the typical Thunder blow you out, beat the brakes off you in the third quarter, turn you over, you know, start getting transitions, threes start raining, crowd goes crazy. TJ McConnell put his foot in the ground and said, nah, man, we're not going to die in this quarter. But yeah, I think that Halliburton being unable to do anything at all, like, he was a zero on offense. I'm not going to say he was a negative, but he definitely was not a contributing offensive player to the point where you might question in the fourth quarter, should TJ Been playing down the stretch? You know, it's. It's unfortunate, but like, yeah, he got to wear this loss.
- [18:42]
Ben Cruz
He's got to wear it a little bit. I mean, look, it's circumstantial. Like this is what happens. Guys get these sorts of injuries. You either can play through them or you can't. And you can either play through them and be effective or you can't. The problem for Tyrese Halliburton is the only way he's an effective NBA player, or at least a high level NBA player, is when he's moving and when he's attacking and when he's at least presenting some kind of threat. Like he has to get you in the blender to make the most of what he can do. And if he's not doing that, and I would say in the first half, especially from the point of that injury all the way until halftime, basically a non factor on the game, like was kind of standing off to the side, was not able to do much, wasn't even looking to shoot off of the step back when he would get Isaiah Hartenstein or someone on him. If you're not going to take that shot and you're not going to drive and you're not going to drive offense, you're just not doing much for your team at that point. I do give him credit in the third quarter, you know, a lot of that was TJ McConnell driven in that frame for sure. But I also thought Halliburton came out with a totally different energy and was at least looking to mix it up and get involved and push things a little bit more. But I don't know that he had a whole half of that in him, or at least it clearly seemed that way. And this is the dilemma with the TJ McConnell experiences. Even when you get the amazing TJ McConnell quarter, Rick Carlisle knows there's not 24 minutes of that. Like, this is a guy who has to go all out to be that good. And so you want the controlled bursts of him causing that kind of chaos. But if Halliburton's not going and TJ McConnell needs a blow at some point and you of course like want to default back to the guys who got you there, honestly, here's the thing, I think they were almost there. I thought Pascal Siakam had a great start to the fourth that pulled them close enough. And then there was that four within four. And then there was that stretch in the middle of the fourth quarter. Four straight turnovers, all of which resulted in either a J Dub score or a J Dub free throw or a Shay score or a Shay free throw. That's kind of the game right there.
- [20:29]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. I mean, they even went to TJ Halliburton late in the game. And I think it's just more of a credit to Halliburton, the fact that they kept him in the game in order to try those two together. Even during the stretch where he went off, it did feel like once Shay got a hold of him and he was trying to shoot over the top of him for like 20 seconds, seconds until he got it off, it was like a clear indication where it's like, oh, that's why they don't do this as often as maybe people would like. Yeah, it's just the, I guess not even fatal flaw. But the one thing you could nitpick about the Pacers is so much of their success comes with like the beautiful team basketball. And if any part of that is hobbled like we saw in the previous game when Nem or Nismis, excuse me, wasn't out there, like just felt a little off. You didn't have all your pieces, the ball wasn't popping as much as you couldn't like execute at the high level. You need to, in order to combat like a historic team like the Thunder are, and to not have Halliburton first and foremost is like, that is the guy that's going to stir the drink to get everyone involved. All of a sudden, like things are a little bit easier for your Miles Turner, a guy who has been pretty much a career disappointment considering like how much he's been expected of throughout times of various eras and the Pacers. And so I don't know, I. I guess to a certain extent you could ding Halliburton, but it reminds me a little bit of the Michael Porter Jr. Discourse where it's like, okay, you could ding Michael Porter Jr. For a lot of stuff, but like, did you guys see like he was playing with one arm literally totally out. Theories? Yeah, it's. There's only so much you could do when a guy like as Rob said needs to move and he cannot move.
- [21:54]
Big Waz
Yeah, yeah. And to me, again, they come out with that sluggish first half start. They make that run in the fourth. If you don't have that first half start, that run that they made is a six point lead and not a four point deficit. Right. Like if they have their typical Pacers game, that's a lead in the fourth and OKCs like, what the hell is going on? Instead it's like, we make this run, we're still down four and we still have to basically have a bunch of perfect possessions with nine minutes to go. We have to be perfect on every possession and that's when the turnovers happen. When you find yourself thinking like, no, we need to get a bucket. We need to do this. And that's where the tightness kind of comes with. It's like, all right, we made our run. We kind of shot our wad here at the poker table. And it's like, yeah, I think we're all out of chips here, so you know that. But that's playoff basketball, guys. Like, this team is smelling a championship, and they're in front of their insanely rabid home crowd, and they played like it. So they got the props for that.
- [22:58]
Rob Mahoney
That home court is ferocious, wonderful, to the point where Dub had a big bucket in the fourth quarter, another one of those, like, falling away high glass finishes. And I noticed Royce Young was like, that's the biggest pop this arena has ever seen. And this dude has seen every single pop in that arena probably. So it does mean a lot. Like, this team has only lost, I believe, two games the entire postseason. One was the Denver comeback, the other was the Indiana comeback. Under normal circumstances, they're not going to be in OKC in, like, this is why.
- [23:29]
Ben Cruz
Yeah, and we've talked about the ways that, like, feeds into their style of play, too. Right. Like, if you want a team that's going to get out on the break that way, if you want to blot out all the sound so you can pick off people from the blind side defensively, like, these are the circumstances to do it.
- [23:44]
Big Waz
Right.
- [23:44]
Ben Cruz
I think we're getting, you know, the. The merits of actual home court advantage have been debated a lot over the last few years, and there's lots of evidence to suggest that maybe it's just not as valuable a thing in the three point era. Maybe the variance has kind of overwhelmed home court advantage. I think with the way that the Thunder play combined with their. The actual noise they produce is maybe something closer to like a ballpark advantage where there's just like a very specific thing that plays into a very specific way the team plays that's unique among the NBA landscape. And I say this like the field house is in another amazing home crowd that also fuels. It's, you know, the Pacers transition game, but in a slightly different way. Like, there's a symbiosis here happening, I think, between the fans and these teams. That's, like, really fascinating for these to be the two that broke through.
- [24:29]
Rob Mahoney
What's the difference between a field house and an arena.
- [24:34]
Ben Cruz
Field?
- [24:35]
Big Waz
You got to be in Indiana to.
- [24:36]
Ben Cruz
Have a field, maybe so really?
- [24:38]
Big Waz
No, I don't know. I just assumed that was a Hoosier thing. I don't know.
- [24:42]
Rob Mahoney
I believe you immediately. We got centers, we got arenas, we got field houses.
- [24:48]
Ben Cruz
I mean, field house is the most evocative by far. There's a lot of natural light in that thing. I wondered if it has something to do with, like the window scape, but yeah, we got to get to the bottom of that. We got to get to the bottom of what makes a field house a field house.
- [24:59]
Rob Mahoney
Just an open concept. A lot of, like, floor to ceiling windows. Yeah.
- [25:03]
Ben Cruz
It's very tasteful.
- [25:04]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. Should we talk about the Tony Bradley minutes?
- [25:08]
Ben Cruz
Yeah. Pacers nation turned its lonely eyes to Tony Bradley stumbling back on the court.
- [25:15]
Rob Mahoney
I swear to God, he ran a fast break at a certain point where it looked like he was like bopping around in a Model T. He did a churro step. He sure did. I guess if we're talking, like, going forward, do we think that Wazu like that the Pacers need to do anything differently, or is it the same recipe? You just gotta execute a little better?
- [25:36]
Big Waz
If to me, it felt like the Pacers came out on defense like a team that feels confident that they could score on okc, you don't play defense in the way that they did. If you think your. Your playoff life depends on getting stops in this game, and I think that needs to be reversed. I think they need to treat the offense like, all right, we will figure this out as the game goes on, but we need to lock in on our defensive assignments and let the offense be the thing that finds itself. Because all of those easy baskets that J Dub got basically not forcing because there was a couple of possessions where OKC does their thing where Shay drives like six feet from the basket, pulls a bunch of guys in after 20 shake around moves or whatever, throws it out to Casey. All right, they worked for that bucket. They made a three. You move on with your life. Next play. When these guys are just getting dunk after dunk after dunk in the first quarter and like, you're on the road against a team that pretty much everybody thinks is much better than you, like, that just can't be what happens in game six if they think they're going to have a chance in that one. Because I think OKC is going to be keyed up to lock these guys down and win the championship on the road. So to me, that's the biggest thing. It's sort of a temperamental thing where I as an offensive team and you finally got your sort of rhythm going and you feel like, you could consistently get buckets against the greatest defense since the spurs or whatever, right? You come out and you say, ah, we'll stay in striking distance. We're going to ramp up our offense. I don't think that can be the mentality going into the next game.
- [27:18]
Ben Cruz
Certainly not with all of this stuff clicking. Like Shay and J Dub having these kinds of games, giving up a ton of second chance points. You know, Chad and Hartenstein combined for 11 offensive rebounds.
- [27:29]
Big Waz
What do you know?
- [27:31]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, but.
- [27:31]
Ben Cruz
But not necessarily always playing together. I think a lot of it's playing separately and then guys actually hitting shots, you know, like, Aaron Wiggins had as many threes in the first half as the Thunder did in all of game four. So the guys are finally hitting. The supporting cast is finally hitting. Like, this has to be a. Something has to give scenario for the Pacers. You can't. You can't just let the Thunder get away with that much offensively.
- [27:52]
Big Waz
Exactly.
- [27:53]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. I think Wallace hitting those threes. I think he had three in this game. Like. Like, that was crucial because we'd seen him kind of be slowly, like, diminished. He's starting anymore. And, like, a lot of his offensive game is still a work in progress. Like, his hands are basically Ginsu knives at this point, where just the ability to just chop away at the ball is just on another level, especially considering the other guys he's playing with. Shea Caruso, all those other guys are way more experienced than he is. I think this is his second year still. But the offense is. A lot of times you find yourself being like, what are we doing here? Like, you're just. You're just in the corner. It's like, all right, then. Then you got to hit those shots, and you hit those shots. It's just everything seemed to breathe and feel more natur. Natural for the Thunder in a way that, like, maybe game one was. Was the last time we've seen this. But even then, like, obviously the sour taste of the ending is just like, I don't know, just the. The turnovers there giving way to transition. Guys were hitting shots, guys were playing defense. Like, this felt like the Thunder credit to the Pacers for the first time, probably.
- [28:47]
Ben Cruz
I mean, it helps when every fourth possession is coming off of a turnover, you know, Like, I just think that gives you some of that breathing room you're talking about, Justin. And it. It gets you out of the repetitive patterns of we're just going to run more or less some version of the same action because it's been successful for us. And because, like, that's what a pretty good Pacers defense will allow us to run. And the thing that we can get to now, all of a sudden there's more random offense. Now all of a sudden you're getting more in the flow. Now you're getting some of those sprayouts from Shai like you outlined up top. Like, those are hugely impactful plays, but they're hugely impactful because you're getting them in the mix of so many other different things that make the Thunder, which can be quite predictable on offense, much less predictable.
- [29:26]
Rob Mahoney
Anything else from this game you guys want to talk about? Many other little things.
- [29:30]
Ben Cruz
I want to talk about a very specific play. Very early in this game, like a minute and a half in, Chet drives on Miles Turner and converts not a reverse layup, but a straight up backwards layup.
- [29:43]
Big Waz
Yeah, that was, that was a throw up.
- [29:46]
Ben Cruz
But, you know, I mean, it worked.
- [29:47]
Big Waz
It looked good on the highlight reel, I tell you that much.
- [29:50]
Ben Cruz
Chet throws up some absolutely disgusting layup attempts, sometimes to your point, Woz, but sometimes he does some stuff that's like, I just haven't seen people even really attempt that before. So I want to salute the ingenuity of, you know, one of our long boys trying to convert over another long boy and doing whatever he has to do to get it done.
- [30:08]
Big Waz
Question I. Early on in Chet's career was like, yo, he's young. He's going to get. He's going to fill out. He's going to be a bigger player. Don't worry, it's going to be cool. It's like the end of year three and he's still like extremely like a bag of toothpicks. Is this just what it's gonna be?
- [30:25]
Ben Cruz
Do we think that he's 23?
- [30:28]
Big Waz
Okay.
- [30:29]
Rob Mahoney
I also think, like, the injuries probably slowed him down for adding any sort of bulk onto his frame. And I think he'd probably have to worry about that long term, especially as he had one. I know. What was it like just kind of his back or his butt bone where you took that hard fall that took him out for a little while.
- [30:44]
Ben Cruz
Several broken pelvis injuries. Let's. Let's see you hit the bench press with the broken pelvis.
- [30:50]
Big Waz
You know, brother, I'm certainly not.
- [30:52]
Rob Mahoney
I'm going to be there tomorrow. Let's go. Let's get those big plates out. No, but it is wild. I have been just watching Chat in amazement because even though, like, he will have just like very mixed evenings like tonight where it's like he'll do something Just so spectacular, as Rob mentioned. But then on the other end, he'll be like, oh, you know, still a ways to go. It's just like, because functionally, like, his body looks so much like KD's, but it's almost like a test, test case for like, what can happen if from the jump, before this kid even got into the NBA, you're like, you could be anything, man. Like, Katie was, he broke the mold, but he was basically like a bigger guy being like reared as a guard, right? It was almost like a, a different mold switch. Whereas, like, Chet is a big. But like, if you asked me in two years what he's doing, I'd be like, I don't fucking know. He's running four or five pick and rolls to start NBA Finals games earlier in the series with, with Isaiah Hardenstein. And it's like, it's not even close to what it's going to be like. This guy could be miraculous in like.
- [31:51]
Ben Cruz
Three years, I think of any player in this series, he has the furthest headroom in terms of like his, his potential as a player, of what he could eventually be. Not just stylistically in the way you're saying Justin, but like, he could wind up being one of the best players to play in this series. Like, he has that kind of talent in him now. Shai sets an incredibly high bar. Tyrese Halliburton sets an incredibly high bar. These guys are really, really good. J Dub, as we're seeing, is kind of scraping higher and higher as these series go on, as he gets more and more playoff experience. Chet needs some of that. He needs some different kinds of opportunity over time. He needs to figure out, as we're alluding to kind of like what body type he wants to have and can have while staying healthy in the NBA. He does take a lot of shots, he does take a lot of hits, he takes a lot of hard falls. However you want to address that, that's a strength and conditioning job, not mine.
- [32:37]
Big Waz
But he don't gotta hit the weight room, he just gotta drink some insurers do the styles Pete Thug workout, calisthenics and he'll be fine. We just gotta get him on the pull up bar and he'll be fine.
- [32:49]
Ben Cruz
I, I hope that's the case. But even in his current form, where we're having all these questions and conversations, success, really successful series overall, I would.
- [32:57]
Rob Mahoney
Say needs a new stylist. I don't know what's going on with that haircut, man. Yeah, just the, like the Beavis and Butthead haircut with the, with the Abe Lincoln beard is just the Mennonite beard.
- [33:08]
Big Waz
Is killing me for sure.
- [33:10]
Rob Mahoney
Someone who had a chin beard for most of like his college run. Like, brother, no.
- [33:15]
Ben Cruz
Like, what brought you to that world, Justin? How'd you feel about it?
- [33:18]
Rob Mahoney
I think it was like during the time where the Red Sox also had a lot of that, like during the.
- [33:22]
Big Waz
Time had a lot of chin straps.
- [33:24]
Rob Mahoney
It wasn't so much a chin strap for me so much as like this, the chin holder, you know, just, just the chin.
- [33:31]
Big Waz
Oh, wait, wait.
- [33:32]
Ben Cruz
Just, just goatee.
- [33:33]
Big Waz
Just the bottom goatee and nothing else.
- [33:35]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. I don't know what you would call that because it's not the full goatee. There was no stash. It was just the chin warmer.
- [33:41]
Ben Cruz
I think it's still a goat. I think that's still a goatee.
- [33:43]
Rob Mahoney
Still a goat. It looks, if anything, more goat. Typical. Go to. But yeah, I rocked that for a while. Backwards Red Sox hat. Let's go.
- [33:52]
Ben Cruz
That's, that's a one, two punch. Like those things just go. Two great tastes that go great together.
- [33:56]
Rob Mahoney
Ladies didn't know what was going to hit them.
- [33:58]
Ben Cruz
Yeah, look, I, I, I look forward to seeing Chet's style feature. You know, the world really is his oyster.
- [34:04]
Rob Mahoney
By the way, ESPN did run a style feature about sga and Halliburton was style icons. They were like after game four, like it was the morning after. I looked at that ESPN NBA section is like, what is happening here?
- [34:19]
Big Waz
It's tough during the Finals.
- [34:21]
Rob Mahoney
Tough one. All right, let's flip now to the Desmond Bain trade, which I'm sure nobody has heard anything about until now. Well, it's new on Monday night. Yeah, just happened. Just happened. No one has consumed any takes about this trade, but this is a fascinating one that probably has ramifications like going into next year's final, potentially. We could talk about that. Why don't we start? You want to start with the Magic side and then we'll flip to the grizzly side of things. Yeah, okay. Because that's obviously going to have the bigger implications for next season. I feel like we've talked about what type of player the Magic are going to acquire or like who they should target. And it always been the same conversation where it's like they would need a point guard, but not actually a point guard, more of a ball handler who could shoot off the catch, but also could shoot self created and also can create his own offense and pick a rope, but not too much because you want Paulo and Franz to do some of that, but also maybe too much because sometimes they can't actually do that. And at that point, you're already working with a short list. And then you tack on the. The Magic's actual play style, the physical defensive nature of it. And I think, if anything, getting Bane is a boon. But Rob, it's also Occam's razor, because I think he is the exact player that they would want in that exact spot.
- [35:37]
Ben Cruz
I both understand the Pearl clutching over the sheer number of picks involved, and I also would just point to the situation and say, like, you're alluding to Justin. If you are the Orlando Magic, you need really one thing and one quite precise thing. And what the construction of this deal tells me as much as anything is that Orlando looked around at your Anferny Simonses and all the other like, ostensible remedies for their shooting woes and said, we just don't think those guys actually move the needle. Like, we don't think the super flawed defender who can shoot actually fixes anything. We don't think the guy who can shoot but can't handle who you may have thrown into a trade machine at some point, we don't think he actually makes our team better. There's basically like four of these guys who shoot as well as Desmond Bain does and handle the ball the way he does and can hold up defensively. And so why not go get that guy, even if it costs you a little bit more to get it? And I think, I think the other thing too is like, once you get Suggs back in the lineup, some of the ball handling issues resolve a little bit. I'm not saying they're perfectly resolved, but having Suggs, having Bane, having the core as constructed, this is a really formidable group that has one huge glaring problem and now one elite solution to that problem.
- [36:47]
Big Waz
Yeah, I mean, and Bill talked about it on his podcast whenever that trade was executed. But if you are a team who calls yourself serious, a serious basketball outfit, the Eastern Conference playoffs have been a clarifying event. Like, I'm sorry if I'm Orlando, I don't think I can be as good as the Knicks and the Pacers showed themselves to be in the Eastern Conference playoffs this year. You definitely looking at the Cavs like, we're not afraid of you guys either. And so I don't even think it's like, we don't think Simon Smith is not somebody that could make a difference. It's that we're willing to put more resources into something better. I think that's the difference it's sort of an all in kind of move in a way that we wouldn't have considered the Magic an all in team before the playoffs started like it would. It just wouldn't have felt like it made sense to consider them a team that should be considering that mindset. But after watching Indy play the way they did and the Knicks play the way they did, I respect the move. I'm always gonna love the idea of like let's upgrade the roster. Cause we think we can go out and beat the hell out of people next year. We're not scared of Indy, we're not scared of New York, we're not scared of Boston, we're not scared of Cleveland, we're not scared of Detroit. We think we could be the top team in the conference. So I love it. And obviously the fit like you guys said is everything. And also I think just in temperament, I think Bane is gonna fit in beautifully with these guys.
- [38:24]
Ben Cruz
Now in wingspan, not a good fit, you know, maybe the, the first negative wingspan player in Orlando Magic recent history. If there's something on the high shelf they may have to like help him out. Jonathan Isaac like grabbed the thing from the top of his locker, please. But other than that fits like a glove.
- [38:40]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. If you were to play devil's advocate here because I, I agree with you guys that the Magic's window is now and if anything this past season was almost like a fake out to the true form of the Magic where it's like they didn't have Suggs to unst them and they were so over indexed on defensive first players that if anything like next season if they just have Suggs plus Bane it does solve a lot of them to the point where it's just like I have to stop myself from getting too excited because I'm.
- [39:08]
Big Waz
Already talking like six starting five.
- [39:11]
Rob Mahoney
It is depth that I think like supports that. Even though they got rid of Cole Anthony who I think is like a beautiful like emergency third point guard in order to. Well I think for what they need for the offense that they need, I, I think he can, he can solve some issues in a regular season in the way that yes they have often found that they needed. But if Bain has filled in for injury riddled teams in the past, if anything like that is the advantage of going so big money contracts for our three, four guys is that when one of those guys is hurt obviously you have another guy to turn to. Bain probably does that better than anyone at this point. I guess if we're gonna play Devil's advocate Though it does make them super expensive in the near future. And if anything, this seems like two sides of the same problem. Where Memphis was looking at this and looking at Bain and being like, well, you solve problems for us, but you aren't the final puzzle piece to complete us. We could probably maybe take a step back and figure this out for the future, unstick our books a little bit and then just kind of figure this out on the fly. We can get to map this a little bit later. But for Orlando, like this is it.
- [40:14]
Ben Cruz
Yeah.
- [40:14]
Rob Mahoney
And while they have flexibility, how many times we talked about like how funny it was that they would just sign guys to descending contract on team with team options. Like, so they have moves to make. They made one today. In fact, they got rid of, they, they declined the team options on Gary Harris and Corey Joseph.
- [40:29]
Ben Cruz
Matter of time.
- [40:30]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, but like it really is Da Silva and Anthony Black who we should mention that they kept around because the feeder system in order to get those low money guys to support the big money guys is kind of cut off for the foreseeable future.
- [40:45]
Ben Cruz
I mean none of those young guys have really hit yet other than Franz and Paulo and Jalen Suggs obviously. But as you said, like Da Silva kind of got like played out of the rotation over the course of the year. Anthony Black has been so come and go. Jet Howard can kind of shoot sometimes, can not shoot other times. This is the other problem with. Not the problem, but the other thing to flag with Desmond Bain. Every shooter who goes to Orlando can't shoot anymore. It's something in the water. I don't know what's happening. Like KCP was one of the steadiest three point shooters in the league for five years running. All of a sudden shoots like 20% in the playoffs. Like it's just what happens there. Would it shock me if Desmond Bain comes out next season and shoots like 34% from 3? I hope that's not the case. History tells us sometimes with the Magic, weird shit happens. But this is a team that's just like, I mean they've been in the bottom five and three point percentage for five years. Like they just need this exact thing. And as you said, Justin, it's one thing if you're the Grizzlies and you're looking around saying, what is the piece that makes us get better? Is it the extra wing we've been trying to grab at for so many years? Is it a different kind of approach to our offense? Like they experimented with like trying to deviate from being so John Morant centric. Like they were grasping at so many different solutions for Orlando. They've run into the wall and they've seen it and they've felt it and they've experienced it and they know exactly what it is. And it's not having enough shooting and playmaking on the floor. And so they brought in a really great shooter who can also make plays and in doing so augments their two best players ability to make plays.
- [42:11]
Big Waz
And what I would add to that, if, you know, anybody from the Orlando Magic are listening to this podcast, I think the lessons.
- [42:18]
Ben Cruz
Yes, stuff actually is right now, if you want to speak directly to stuff.
- [42:22]
Big Waz
I think the lesson watching the Pacers and the OKC Thunder play is these guys play with a collectivist style. You guys have brought in some great talent, you've got amazing talent in house, but talent alone isn't gonna do it. They have to develop an actual style of play that is, you know, basically involves the entire rotation. Everybody has to feel a part of it because it can't just be, you know, we're gonna be these individuals who make things happen. I truly believe they have to. I don't know if it's gonna be Mo's. I don't know if it's gonna be Paolo. I don't know who it's gonna be. But somebody has to galvanize a, a group because I, I think that's the lesson that I've learned in the playoffs. Like you're not winning big in this league on individual talent by itself.
- [43:16]
Rob Mahoney
And that's probably the flip side of like the learnings from the finals. If anything, the setup they have now, Rob, looks more like the Celtics 2.0, just bigger and like more muscle bound and rather than the teams that we're watching in the finals because they don't have a number one ball handler you can go to when the shit just stops. Right. If anything, they're hoping the collective can do enough in order to compensate for that. And I don't hate that bet. I think collectively, especially if Paolo keeps progressing right, I think they will probably have enough. But I mean, to watch Halliburton do what he's doing now, it almost feels like they could be on the receiving end of the same situation where it's like he is, he is getting everybody involved, but they're just looking for answers. That would be the flip side of it.
- [44:04]
Ben Cruz
Yeah. They're never going to be as kinetic as a team like the Pacers on offense. Like they, they have a lot of guys who are versatile, a lot of players who theoretically can pass, shoot and dribble the shoot, being shakier for some guys than others, but a lot of guys who can handle the ball and keep plays moving and advance it and like, get that flow going. But there's no means of doing it if you don't have enough collective shooting on the floor. And so that's where like, even just having someone like Bane, even when he's not touching the ball, occupying a defender, pulling things in his direction even a little bit, I think goes a long way. In that way, Franz has to figure out how to shoot again. Like, that's just a thing that needs to happen for this team to be good. And Jalen Suggs needs to be more consistent with the threes that he takes. Like, he shoots some, some long balls because they're just trying to pull on the defense even a little bit. If he can be a steady shooter for them, that's a huge deal. I think in terms of the guy you're talking about, Justin, like the go to option, whether it's when things break down or not, that guy is somewhat theoretical. But we've seen it in fits and starts, in moments at the Orlando Magic's most successful moments. And it's Paolo Banchero with space. Paolo Banchero with space is a different guy. And I think part of the Orlando Magic's limitations right now are that they're feeding Paolo's worst instincts, which is when he runs into certain walls, he wants to take the 18 footer, and if you clear a little bit of a Runway for him, he's going to go all the way to the basket. And so that's one thing you would hope with getting Bane. I'm sure this is not the last of the Orlando Magic's moves, like stacking shooters, getting more of a structure for this thing. You're just clearing away for your best player to leverage his best assets, which is his size and his strength and how physical he can be when he's not settling for the shots he shouldn't take.
- [45:41]
Rob Mahoney
Well, speaking of running into walls, we should probably talk about the Memphis Grizzlies, who seemingly admitted the fact that they had probably run into one this past season and was. I kind of found that a bit refreshing that they said Zach Kleiman in the post, like the end of season press conference is like, that wasn't good enough and they acted accordingly. I feel like, like I said before, like, Bane is obviously a super helpful player, but considering the stage they seem to be in where they're a Bit more in sorting themselves out mode rather than like ready to push the button. Like Bane almost strikes me more as like in the Drew Holiday Derek White vein where it's like we're going all in. Whereas Memphis, I think it's actually kind of refreshing to be like, you know what? Don't have it. Let's figure it. Let's take a step back to figure it out down the road.
- [46:26]
Big Waz
I mean, let's keep it a thousand. Like, what about this team and its results suggested that they deserve to be invested into more? This was a team that was begging to be divested from. And so I think they did absolutely the smart thing. You know what's interesting to me, a lot of the stuff that I was seeing online and some of the coverage was comparing this to the McHale Bridges traders, which obviously Orlando is like, look, the Knicks kind of went all in last year. They rewarded themselves with a conference finals, had a chance to win that thing and go to the finals. Let's do that for ourselves. I've seen people saying this isn't a good enough haul. I'm like, what else were they supposed to get? What else was supposed to be offered for this? Like, is Desmond, like, he's a good ass player. He's already getting paid $40 million a year. Guys like this guy doesn't come on a cheap. He's not on a value deal. And yeah, he's not an all star player. I thought they got a nice piece of investment. Yeah, excuse me, a piece of assets, if you will. Hashtag assets.
- [47:38]
Ben Cruz
And I'm liking Mad Money was today we're divesting, we're talking assets.
- [47:42]
Big Waz
Come on, come on.
- [47:43]
Ben Cruz
This is what we do.
- [47:44]
Big Waz
This is, we do. I love the move, honestly, and I love the message that it sends to John Morant and Jaron Jackson. You guys are on notice. Do something. Show us that you like the freaking inflated sense of self and ego of these kids, man, over the years actually prove something to us on the court and make us believe that this is something worth, worth committing to long term. And so that's, that's another thing that I love. I love the the hall back, but I love the message that it sends to the two last of the Mohicans of that core.
- [48:25]
Ben Cruz
I mean this is just not a has been team. It's not like, oh, we had it, we were so close, but then we got hurt. Like this Grizzlies group never really got off the launch pad. They won one playoff series and they've had lots of injuries. They've had lots of issues. They've had all kinds of stuff happening, but they've also had a lot of time relative to most NBA cores. Like, they've gotten cracks and opportunities to try to stay together. And then they've also had to deal with, like, John Ran being out for the majority of a season and things like that. I think it's okay to turn the page on that experiment. I think it's okay to look at those three guys and say, between their three limitations, we just don't think there's going to be enough here. That's a perfectly reasonable, like, place to land with those three players. In particular, I think Bane is in a lot of ways the most well rounded. Like, you know, he doesn't have, like, very pronounced weaknesses as a player where Jaren Jackson and John Morant do. And so if you want to keep. Continue building around those guys, you have to find creative solutions and creative ways to do it. Guess what? The way you do that is with a shit ton of draft picks, which you now have in your back pocket. If you want. If you want to leverage those picks into a different kind of player, a different kind of talent, you're going to have the opportunity to do that. If you want to put those guys on notice and eventually lean even harder into a rebuild, I think that would be fine too. Like, this gives the Grizzlies a lot of places to go, and they did not look like a team that had a lot of places to go when those three players were together just because of their salary and because of their limitations.
- [49:51]
Big Waz
And it's important to, like, actually point out those limitations. Like Jaren Jackson, we can't tread water with you at the five.
- [49:58]
Ben Cruz
The rebounding is not good enough.
- [50:00]
Big Waz
It's just, just. It's not good enough.
- [50:02]
Ben Cruz
Not good enough.
- [50:03]
Big Waz
You're just not good enough at the five for us. And so we got to supplement that with other pieces. Even though at, you know, at times, you know, people that I'm friends with once called him the next Tim Duncan, which is just like, you know, are.
- [50:16]
Ben Cruz
Are those people in the room with us now?
- [50:17]
Big Waz
No.
- [50:18]
Ben Cruz
No.
- [50:19]
Big Waz
Did you call him the Rock next Tim Duncan?
- [50:20]
Ben Cruz
I didn't go that far. I'm.
- [50:21]
Rob Mahoney
I'm like, I'm.
- [50:22]
Ben Cruz
I'm a fan of team. No, I think Jaren Jackson's really good, but his inability to transition into being even like a reasonable, workable time.
- [50:32]
Big Waz
Not even like 12. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, not even 12 minutes a game. Like, you can't play this dude at the five. And then his job, which of course we know is the shooting, the injury and you know, the off court stuff. These are like.
- [50:44]
Ben Cruz
And the decision making, like, well, this, this is just a guy who has not shown he can be a driver of playoff offense and he's the guy who needs to drive your playoff offense.
- [50:53]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I think you guys are circling the bigger question here, which is do you keep going? It sounds like based on reporting, it seemed like Memphis cleaned it up pretty quickly, that this is just kind of a half measure. We're taking a step back to take a step forward. But was if you were in the driver's seat, are you cleaning house? Are you saying, ja, you're always injured. We can't deal with this. Like, we need to move on and turn the page full bore. Like, what would you do?
- [51:16]
Big Waz
Nah, I'm not cleaning house. I think again, this is another, this is another step in the direction of doing that though. It's like I'm headed there, but I could change my mind. I'm a malleable guy, you know, I'm an open minded guy. I'm willing to hear people out. And John Morant, man, let your game do the talking. Let your organization understand why they should chart a path for the future with you included in it. So again, I love that idea of just being like, look, Ja, clean slate, man. We're not expected to win 50 games next year. We're not expected to be at the upper echelons of the west, but we damn sure better be competitive if you calling yourself some type of superstar. And I was just figuring OKC out, they lucky I got injured. All the crap all of this guy was saying after they got cooked in the first round. I think this is a beautiful opportunity for John Morant to write the next chapter of his career.
- [52:17]
Ben Cruz
I would love to watch one of these finals games with John Morant and just get his, his real time reactions to the Oklahoma City defense. Like this is a thing that he thinks he can crack. Like really and truly.
- [52:27]
Big Waz
No, no, he. No, no, no, Rob, he cracked it.
- [52:30]
Ben Cruz
Oh, sorry.
- [52:31]
Big Waz
He already.
- [52:31]
Ben Cruz
He already did it.
- [52:32]
Big Waz
We're winning by like 30 and a half that he got injured. And so he could think that like I, I cracked the code.
- [52:37]
Ben Cruz
Yeah. What happened in the other games?
- [52:40]
Big Waz
That's a good question. He hadn't quite figured it out yet. Those are just warm ups, warm up cracks.
- [52:44]
Rob Mahoney
He had to ramp up from his previous injuries before he got injured again. But I don't blame Memphis for looking at the Ja Jaron core and being like let's give this another run, if only because like, I don't know how you get approximate value for Jai. If anything, after this season, after everything that came before that, you're probably selling low. He still has the superstar in that when he was available to play, he still had that electricity that like coursed through this entire team and then made them special in ways that they need to be special. I thought Jaren did a really great job applying what he learned in the off season. And by off season, I mean the punted season from the season before. Yeah, being able to create off the dribble. He might not be there 5, although he might have to play some if Zach Eddy is going to get on the court. He's also injured. Apparently that happened over the off season. But there's like, there's something there and that they just need to recalibrate the pieces around him. And I do think draft picks are the way to go because Memphis has just an incredible track record of landing the right guys.
- [53:41]
Big Waz
So something worth mentioning in terms of, you know, Kliman not being a complete idiot for charting this course. Um, we talk about like a million times this playoffs that the Pacers were a top five team. When they finished they went like 34 and 15. The Grizzlies started 34 and 15 this season. This season, this past season they started 34 and 15. Number one in the West. Like, yeah, I think there's reasons to believe that this can be a good team, you know, so hopefully this fresh start, spring something up in them.
- [54:17]
Ben Cruz
There is a ton of talent there.
- [54:18]
Rob Mahoney
There.
- [54:18]
Ben Cruz
I mean there generally has been to your point, Justin, about the way that the Grizzlies have drafted. Like there have always been guys who are either on the cusp of producing in the rotation or just need a little bit more opportunity. Here's a little bit more opportunity. You know, if you are a Jalen Wells coming back from injury next season now you're going to have a chance to do some different stuff. You're going to have the ball in your hands a little bit more. Things are the decks are going to be cleared for you in a slightly different way. If you're Gigi Jackson with aspirations of greatness on the wing and what you can eventually be as like A high scoring 3, 4 hybrid now is your shot. And you know, as far as the jaw and Jaren Jackson part, like I would fully expect those guys to be here for the medium term future and I would fully expect like some kind of renegotiate and extend scenario. For Jaren Jackson to still happen even after this trade.
- [55:05]
Rob Mahoney
Lakers fans, no more Photoshops. Okay? It's not happening.
- [55:09]
Ben Cruz
I don't rule out any Lakers Photoshops these days. But. But I do think that's the most likely outcome for him still, like for the Grizzlies, whether. Whether you ultimately think Jaren Jackson is a featured player on the next amazing Grizzlies team or not, you need him under contract. Like you need him under contract for longer than this one expiring season.
- [55:27]
Rob Mahoney
Am I nuts to think that there's still a good player buried deep within kcp because he wasn't bad.
- [55:35]
Ben Cruz
Yeah, he was. Yeah, he couldn't shoot, but he was pretty good on like pull up twos, like curl twos. Obviously. Like you just hope that that was a weird blip in terms of his 3 point accuracy. Cause you're right, the defense was there. Like he's. He's gonna be that kind of factor. You just need him to also hit some shots.
- [55:53]
Big Waz
I'd be sniffing around KCP if I was a serious playoff team going into next season.
- [55:59]
Rob Mahoney
For sure has five seasons of high level shooting success. I'm not like a great game. Just like there's. I think if anything this was a trade that underlined where these teams are. And the Magic need someone at that position, at that cap hold to perform at a very high level in order to get to where they want to go. I think Memphis just has the opportunity to almost like take him in and like see what he can be. And while like, I don't know if he'll ever be like live up to the 20 million over the next two years sort of player, like I think he could still be a good player and they could kind of benefit. I saw a lot of people talk about him as sunk cost and like they had to actually attach a pick in the pick package in order to get off of. I'm kind of like, if anything, I kind of like that bet. It reminds me of Danny Green going to. To OKC a couple years ago from the Lakers and then the Sixers being like, can we just have him? Like, I think he still has two years left.
- [56:51]
Ben Cruz
I think that's going to be. The question is if you are one of these contenders, do you have the outgoing salary or sort of the room under one of the aprons to accommodate that kind of deal. But like if you are the Magic to be real, like this is part of the reason you sign KCP to that contract in the same way that it was part of the reason why the Pacers signed Bruce Brown to that contract that eventually became Pascal Siak. I'm like, you need the salary filler and you don't always want to trade Jalen Suggs or Franz Wagner or Paolo Bancaro.
- [57:17]
Big Waz
And so no, no, you will trade Jalen Suggs.
- [57:19]
Ben Cruz
If you look at the Magic's books like those are the options if you want to make a big time deal. Unless you sign someone like KCP to this kind of contract. And yeah, I'm sure everyone involved, KCP included, wish it had gone better for him last season, but ultimately he still kind of gets Orlando where they need to go, which is with a shooter like Desmond B. Bane.
- [57:37]
Rob Mahoney
Well, let's talk about the east just before we go here because it does seem even more compelling than it was before. I think we were looking at the east and being like, will any team be good though? And now it's like all of a sudden teams are perhaps sensing the opportunity and really going for it. If you guys were to tier out the east, based on where we stand right now, where would you put the Magic? Are they on the top tier with the Cavs and I assume Indianapolis Indiana at this point? Are the Knicks there? What do you got?
- [58:07]
Big Waz
I go Indy, Cavs on the top tier, Knicks second tier, Magic third tier. They gotta show me this is a brand new team. You know, it's not like this isn't some obvious fit, right? Like this isn't going to just get unlocked immediately in terms of, of defining everybody's role in this new structure of the team. Plus they still got young guys that they need to work in that they're still developing. Like they have a lot to figure out. I think they have a nice ensemblage of talent. Like again, like Jalen Suggs. I have a hard time believing like a healthy Jalen Suggs in this lineup that they won't be successful, but the guy has to be healthy and they have to incorporate the new way of being the All Endo Magic. So yeah, to me they under the name Knicks and you know, I, I obviously I think they're better than the Pistons, but again, these are two teams that gotta prove stuff to people.
- [59:06]
Ben Cruz
Yeah, I think, I think that's entirely fair to be, to be clear, I think the Pacers might be a.
- [59:12]
Big Waz
Just a straight up cut above a tier, above everybody.
- [59:15]
Ben Cruz
They might be.
- [59:15]
Big Waz
I mean they might be a tier one team. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what? That's true in the sense that like the best of the places in this playoffs, I have not seen an east team come close to being that good.
- [59:28]
Rob Mahoney
I think the one worry with the Pacers is what we were just talking about earlier is if they do have a rash of injuries, if they have one or two guys, does it kind of break up the beautiful system that they've kind of evolved into? And to that point, you could look at this past regular season almost both ways, where it's like they got everybody there and they took off and they could just take off again. But earlier in the season they didn't have Nebhart, didn't have Neesmith. Does it hobble them in a way that a team that's more star driven and can power through the regular season, how much does that even matter? Because they were a four seed and they're pushing the best team in the league in the NBA Finals right now.
- [60:00]
Ben Cruz
I think the other variable with them too, like not to get too deep into Pacers off season talk, but Miles Turner is going to be an unrestricted free agent and if they were to lose Miles Turner, they don't really have a means to add another Miles Turner.
- [60:12]
Big Waz
And he's the Tony Bradley. Disrespect continues on this podcast.
- [60:17]
Ben Cruz
You know what, I want to make this part clear. I actually thought Tony Bradley had a perfectly fine stint. He was okay.
- [60:22]
Big Waz
Okay.
- [60:22]
Ben Cruz
Perfectly fine.
- [60:23]
Rob Mahoney
He's a large man when he did those sorts of things.
- [60:26]
Ben Cruz
He's a large man and opposite Isaiah Hardenstein, Obi Toppin's not it. Like he's just the man in the middle. He's the truly the man in the middle. But yeah, I like, I think the Pacers deserve the respect as being kind of a cut above some of these other teams. Nicks and Cavs feel like like fair bedfellows to me. I think the Magic are like right on the cusp of that. Like, I think again, we just need to see a little bit in terms of the sort of cohesion that leads you through multiple playoff rounds. I think they've shown enough, especially defensively, to tell us they can beat a lot of teams with their defense if only they get enough help from their offense and maybe this will be enough, maybe it won't. But they have to show some of that like actual synergy on that end first before we start fully buying into them as, as a team that can have the sort of magic that the Knicks just pulled off in sacking round over round.
- [61:13]
Rob Mahoney
It's just so attractive though. It's like hard not to be enamored with what they've built because it really just like Adds on to exactly the type of team that they were. And as we've seen in these finals, like defense in order to counterbalance high octane offense is super important. And the Magic have had that. They just needed any sign of shooting in order to dig them out of the mud in order to build balance on that end. And so if anything, like, they have the system in place, they just need to accelerate and just like build on.
- [61:41]
Big Waz
Top of that question way too early. End of the pod. Nobody's listening to this.
- [61:45]
Ben Cruz
Oh, okay.
- [61:47]
Big Waz
Is Mosley on Tibbs watch.
- [61:50]
Rob Mahoney
This is. Oh, he's still frozen, I think.
- [61:58]
Ben Cruz
I think it's one of those things where like the chatter is obviously out there. Anytime you see a team run into similar problems year over year, offensively, I think it's out there, but it's like they've had so many injuries, ultimately the idea of how they want to play makes sense. I don't know that they've had the perfect personnel to execute it. And so like, do you. Who, who's. Whose feet do you lay that at? Like, who. Who do you blame for those sorts of quandaries? I think Mosey's a really good coach, but I thought. I think Tom Thibodeau is a really good coach. And ultimately teams move on, as we have seen from Michael Malone, from Tom Thibodeau, from like, you know, good qualified coaches because they see some flaw in some part of their execution. So like, it would not shock me if they get off to a super slow start, start to see that seat start heating up. But I think that's very pre. Very, very premature.
- [62:46]
Big Waz
No, I'm talking off season, not pre. This is, you know, Tibbs got. They lost him in off season.
- [62:50]
Ben Cruz
I'm just, you know, it's crazy times.
- [62:52]
Big Waz
Tibbs watch, that's all.
- [62:53]
Rob Mahoney
Well, those other teams were also capped out. Teams that made huge moves where the only move that they could really make was firing their head coach. So at a certain point it does fall at the feet of probably Mosley. If they can't get it done this season, I think in 20, 26, 27, they're flirting with the second apron. So like the clock started ticking way quicker than we imagined. But we'll see. I think next season is going to be a prove it for a lot of those teams.
- [63:15]
Ben Cruz
Oh yeah. I'll say this too. As far as like, what we're seeing be successful in the playoffs on offense, the sort of momentum that the Pacers play with, the sort of connectivity that the best Thunder half court runs have in addition to how they get out in the open court, the magic of proven they can be really disruptive to that style of play. Like they were really one of the only teams that could gum up Boston playing at its most, like, highest octane level. If they can continue to do that while evolving with teams like the Pacers, while evolving with cross conference threats like Oklahoma City, I mean, they are just like positioned to be the sort of counter on defense to a lot of what we're seeing in the NBA right now.
- [63:52]
Rob Mahoney
Yep. Just one last PSA before we go. Stop counting picks in a trade because half of them probably don't matter how many people I've been like. Like, Luca went for one pick and this is four. And so what's going on? And like Katie should go for 12 picks because not one to one. The picks are just. The Phoenix pick that Memphis might get from this trade is one of the most complex, convoluted picks. Swap for. Swap for. For like, oh, you get this one and I get this one to the point where Memphis had a piece of the swap and they traded that in for a full pick from within this, like web of. You get this and I get this. It's like, it's a mess out there. It's just like, just do a little bit of effort to find out which picks matter and which don't. I have the system in place for this reason. I won't do it because we're an hour into this podcast and nobody wants to hear it. But if you pay me on the low, I will rate the picks that they got.
- [64:48]
Ben Cruz
Okay, so if you want your social media blasts to be 15% more fair and accurate, please hire Justin Barrier to tutor you up.
- [64:58]
Rob Mahoney
What are we saying? Five bucks?
- [65:00]
Ben Cruz
Is that it?
- [65:00]
Rob Mahoney
Or subscription feed. Get the email in order to.
- [65:03]
Ben Cruz
We're putting you on Fiverr for social media advice.
- [65:06]
Rob Mahoney
I could do that. No. Well, it's not social media advice. It's. It's expertise.
- [65:10]
Ben Cruz
Okay, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to diminish the work that you do.
- [65:12]
Rob Mahoney
This is my job.
- [65:14]
Ben Cruz
You're right, you're right. Look, sometimes you're right.
- [65:16]
Big Waz
Expertise.
- [65:17]
Rob Mahoney
The swaps aren't my swap. Yeah, swaps don't swap. That's what my blog is going to be called. Soft don't switch swap. Let's end it right there. We'll be back sometime later this week, I hope. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back. We'll talk to you later.