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The Ringer NBA Show
Jalen Williams Drops 40 in a Statement Game. Plus, What’s Going on With Tyrese Haliburton’s Injury?
01:14:48
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- [00:00]
Logan Murdoch
What's happening? Welcome to Real Ones. Logan Murdoch here live from Oklahoma City. I'm here with Howard Beck. What a game. Game five was just the Halliburton injury, the J Dub coming of age, the timely stops from sga, the defense from Chet Holmgren, the foul trouble Miles Turner got himself in. We talked about it all. We also talked about the Desmond Bain trademark. Man, what the hell were the Orlando Magic thinking giving up all those picks? I know they had to get up off of kcp, but how you give up all those picks?
- [00:36]
Howard Beck
Geez.
- [00:36]
Logan Murdoch
We're going to talk about the picks discourse. We're going to talk about the overall Oklahoma City vibe and just how loud that arena was. Me and Tyler Parker will be reacting off of game six on Thursday night, so be on the lookout for that. That is a special edition of Real Ones. That should be a fun one. We got a lot to talk about today on Real Ones with me, Logan Murdoch and Howard mother effing Beck next. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass. And off the court, you still need teammates who are there when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in. With agents and online tools to help you find the coverage you need. You you could focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state.
- [01:36]
Howard Beck
Now you can watch the best of Hulu on Disney, like season two of nine, Perfect Strangers with Hulu on Disney and Star Wars Andor Season 2 on Disney. All of these and more now streaming with Hulu on Disney with a bundle subscription available with bundle plans starting at $10.99 a month. Terms apply. Visit disneyplus.com hulu for details.
- [02:00]
Logan Murdoch
What's poppin' Real Ones. Logan Murdoch here. Howard motherfucking back there. Live from Oklahoma City. We want to do this in person, but it just didn't work out that way. So we're kind of like, I'm in my hotel, Howard's in his hotel. We're figuring this out. How much sleep did you get last night, Howard?
- [02:18]
Howard Beck
Like two hours more than you did, apparently. I was able to duck out earlier than you because you were riding and I was not. I've got some more long term stuff working on, but it's the finals and we have what's called media hospitality. And you walk back into the hotel, all your media friends are hanging out, drinking, having some late food. I mean, I had to I had to go, had to go make the rounds. That's what I do. I'm a man of the people. Logan, you know this.
- [02:53]
Logan Murdoch
You had to indulge. I understand. I didn't realize how much of a man of the people you actually are. Like, like, I mean, I know you're head of the PBWA and all of the yada, yada, yada, yada, but like, it's, it's one thing to, like, see it on emails, but it's a whole other thing to see it in person. Like, you were out here just locked in talking to everybody. Adam Silver's over here. Such and such is over here. You know, we're, you know, you're just in the mix, man.
- [03:18]
Howard Beck
You know, kissing babies, shaking hands. That's, that's for me.
- [03:24]
Logan Murdoch
All right, man.
- [03:25]
Howard Beck
I wish we could have done this in person, though. It's kind of a bummer. We did talk about this. We, we tried to figure out the logistics with Tori. Like, just like you and I are in separate hotels, both of us in very, like, sparse rooms with not exactly a lot of desk space to put this stuff down. So we've got, we've got two cans and a string stretched across a three block stretch of downtown Oklahoma City, and we're gonna make, we were, we were.
- [03:51]
Logan Murdoch
Really excited after we saw Bill and Zach Lowe do their pod in person in Indiana. And we're like, yeah, let's replicate that. And then we realized, like, oh, yeah, we don't have, like, it's not in the budget to have a suite like Bill does. So, you know, we, we, we couldn't, we couldn't make that happen. But Anyways, the Game 5 of the NBA Finals was a doozy, right? I mean, the Thunder take it. J Dub was the story of the game. We're going to get to him in a second. But there's a whole bunch of storylines. There's Halliburton's injury, Finals MVP discussion. Maybe we'll talk a little Desmond Bain for 45 minutes because that's what Howard wants to do. So for some reason. But let's start with J Dub, right? 40 points. It seems like his breakout game in a lot of ways, but specifically in the finals, I was trying to find like a good comp for, for this type of game and this type of coming of age. I kind of thought, you know, I was trying to shoehorn Kobe Game 4 of the 22,000 NBA Finals also against the Indiana Pacers. But, um, I, I, I felt like that was a little bit too Shoehorned in, but it felt like an arrival. And we don't get many of those type of arrival games in the finals from, you know, third year guys. But it was really impressive to see him. You know, he got into the, got into the lane, got his shots. Really the game finally kind of slowed down for him in the postseason or specifically in this finals. Do you think of his performance and what does it do for the MVP discussion? Right, that was, that was Shay's going into this game and it seems a little murky, but like he put Jalen Jada put his step on this particular series.
- [05:43]
Howard Beck
He was awesome. The NBA put out their, their post game notes. He's the fifth youngest player to score 40 or more points in a finals game. Fifth youngest to score 40 plus in a finals game. So he's 24. The only guys who were younger than him to score 40 plus in a finals game. Magic Johnson, who was 20 years old in game six in 1980. Rick Barry, 23 years old. And with three games of 40 plus in 1967. Russell Westbrook, Thunder legend Russell Westbrook, 23 in game four in 2012. Jerry West, 23 years old in game two, 1962. So there you go. Magic Johnson, Rick Barry, Russell Westbrook, Jerry west, and now Jalen Williams as the youngest ever with 40 plus. That's a pretty freaking good list, man. Like that is, that is, that's, that's rare air. That's awesome. He was awesome. And he was awesome. Real time. This wasn't one of those, you know, like occasionally the NBA, it's like it'd be a stretch to say there's a quiet 40. So does a guy will have a quiet 25, even a quiet 30 once you get to 40. It's kind of hard for it to be quiet anyway. But like every point of this felt like it was a loud ass. 40 as a loud ass arena by the way too. Like I don't, you and I like we don't hit every arena anymore. So I feel, I don't know that I'm qualified to declare this, but it's gotta be the loudest arena in the NBA. It was definitely, and this is no disrespect to the fans in Indy who have been fantastic, but Oklahoma is another level. And every time I'm just like, I cannot think straight. It's so fucking loud in here. So Pacers even mentioned it. Like they, like they're, they've, they've, they've said it.
- [07:17]
Logan Murdoch
I hadn't been, I hadn't been to OKC in since 2019, so. And never a game of this magnitude at OKC. I was sitting next to Mark Spears of Anscape, and he, thank God he gave me some earplugs. And even that, my head was ringing. Like, I couldn't, I could not. Yeah, I kind of needed a moment at halftime to where it was like, I didn't get back up until, like, I think 10 minutes left in the third quarter because, like, I just needed a moment to just kind of gather myself because my head was ringing and it hadn't felt like that before. It felt like. I don't know, man. I, I, I, I've never heard anything that loud before. I'm sure. Maybe, like, I know some people in our, in our mentions, oh, sacramento in like, 2000 and such and such and such. And I'm like, okay, all right, guys, I get it, all right.
- [08:05]
Howard Beck
Sacramento was really fucking loud back then, by the way.
- [08:07]
Logan Murdoch
Oh, but like, I, I, I don't know any other comp to this, right? Like, even for playoff, Playoff intensity and playoff crowds are one thing. Maybe Oracle in 07 or 2013 or maybe in that early run was probably a comp, but it was just, it was a sustained yelling, and it was, I was like, are they piping noisy? No, that's just people yelling. That's just people all. And they're on top of you, and then they have just, oh, my goodness.
- [08:36]
Howard Beck
It comes, it's organic there, and it sustains, it almost never comes down. There's no dead spots. Part of that's because, like, the Pacers couldn't shut them up either because they just didn't have the game in them last night to do it, but, man, they were awesome. But yeah, just Jalen Williams, whether he was, you know, scoring from the outside, it was mostly attacking. And it's like, he's, it's funny with Jalen Williams because even, like, in postseason balloting, there were people who were like, how did you have him as this on this spot? He's, he's a guard. And it's like, actually, no, he's a, he's a forward. Lou Dortz always listed as the guard, and Jalen Williams is a forward. And it's funny because you look at him and you think he's your standard, like, 66 shooting guard type size, but he's, he's a big 6 6, and he's a long 6 6, and he just, when he's attacking the rim, it's like he's 6, 9, and they just couldn't Keep him out of the paint. They, they, you know, not, not in the half court, not in transition. He was, he was incredible. He was aggressive. He was super confident. Again, for a guy who's 24, he's not playing like a guy who's in his first finals. Like none of them are. Like that's part of the story of this series, right? Like the Thunder, they weren't rattled after losing game one virtually at the buzzer. They weren't rattled at being down 2:1 with a kind of a dud of a game three in Indy. They're just never down, they're never rattled. And here they are, you know, one win shy of the championship.
- [10:04]
Logan Murdoch
That was crazy. Like you talk about the margins of a finals, like even in game were talking pregame. I think it was an amino acid just about the how Game four just kind of was one of those games where they're on the brink and then they just take control of the series in the final two minutes. Like that's kind of a precedented in that, in that way. I think I want to stay on J Dub for a second because I feel like his game is perfect, a perfect compliment to sga, but not just because of a game wise. But like we talk about the crowd, right? And last night he has a game specific to that crowd where he can galvanize that group. There's a lot of players I feel like in the league and I think that you brought up Russell Westbrook and I think he was another type of player for that OKC crowd where his play can galvanize it in a way that like SGA is just steady. He's just a steady guy. Not to say he doesn't make exciting plays, but he's very much a steady guy. There was A and 1, I think to start the third quarter from J Dub where he gets the crowd going. He's playing with, with the crowd. He's, he's, he's amping it all the way up. And that makes a five point lead from OKC. Talk turn it feel like a 20 point lead. And that was something that the Thunder needed throughout the game last night because even with Halliburton's injury, which we'll get into a sec and two in a second, even with Pascal Siakam hitting timely shots, it felt like even when the Pacers got close, they didn't have a chance because it didn't feel like they could overcome not only the Thunder, but that OKC crowd that J Dub was just galvanizing time after time with his play.
- [11:44]
Howard Beck
This was such a weird game, Logan. I think we talked about this briefly afterward where it was like, even, like in the first half, the Thunder, like, were clearly, clearly in control early.
- [11:54]
Logan Murdoch
And.
- [11:54]
Howard Beck
And they get, you know, they get up by like 10, by 12, maybe they got up by 14 or something. @ some point it felt like they were up by 20. And then there were times that they were up by 18, and it felt like it was only like 6 because the Pacers had been coming at them hard. And like. Like, the Pacers just will not die. And they got it down to what, like two at some point, maybe early in the fourth. And then they just committed that flurry of turnovers. I think they had like eight turnovers in the fourth quarter. Like, this thing was like, that. I felt to me the entire night like the Thunder were dominating the game, and yet the Pacers were somehow still lingering with Halliburton's bad calf, with halliburton Barely scoring.
- [12:33]
Logan Murdoch
TJ McConnell game.
- [12:36]
Howard Beck
TJ McConnell, like, five minute stretch. I don't know if it was a TJ McConnell game, but, you know, put.
- [12:41]
Logan Murdoch
Some respect on TJ McConnell's name. Dude, that was like a TJ quarter.
- [12:45]
Howard Beck
You know what? You know what? I'm just going to say this. It was a T.J. mcConnell game, and I'm saying that for one person only. And he might edit our stories. So shout out to TJ McConnell and Matt Dahlinger.
- [13:00]
Logan Murdoch
Matt Dallinger is. I was. I've been slacking him because he was editing my piece that's going to come out on the ringer.com right now. He is just beside himself with sadness right now.
- [13:10]
Howard Beck
Our editor, who may or may not have grown up in Indiana as a big Pacers fan and definitely loves him some T.J. mcConnell. So, yes, it's the T.J. mcConnell game. I don't even care that they lost. It's the T.J. mcConnell game. That's canon.
- [13:22]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. Yeah. No, let's get back to the finals MVP. Enough TJ McConnell talk. I mean, if you want to have it.
- [13:28]
Howard Beck
I mean, he's.
- [13:29]
Logan Murdoch
He's.
- [13:29]
Howard Beck
He's in the running for Finals mvp. Right? I mean, he's right there.
- [13:33]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, he's going to be right up there with Jerry west is the, the. The. The second player ever to win a Finals MVP on a losing team. So, you know, to forget LeBron, forget all those other people, let's put TJ McConnell in there. But let's talk about Finals MVP right now, because we talked about this briefly after the game as we were Waiting for Thunder players to go to pressers. So if you look at the stats, SGA wins. Right? He's averaging 30. He's shooting a better percentage. But when we talk about this, the argument for J Dub, this is what we talked about last night was the signature game argument. Right Now SGA had the signature game in game four. This was a signature game in game five for J Dub. What gives in game six to. It's because no matter what the stats is pretty much a narrative award. The Finals mvp. Right. It can be. Who. How does. Who is game six not only or however this goes, not only a. A competition not only for the title, but for the. The finals MVP for both of those guys, should the Thunder win.
- [14:44]
Howard Beck
So the debate started in earnest last night, I think for the first time. Right. Which is appropriate. Right. And it's in a two, two series. You're not really having this discussion. But you start hearing chatter about it last night. People start talking about a little on social media last night. There's 11 voters for Finals MVP and you don't know who they are until the NBA hands out those ballots in like the fourth quarter of the. Of the championship game. So we have no idea. So before anybody overreacts anything you and I are about to say, I just want to stipulate neither of us are probably voting. They give it to folks who were definitely there for all seven games.
- [15:15]
Logan Murdoch
I'm going home after this.
- [15:16]
Howard Beck
All six or whatever. Yeah, you're in and out.
- [15:19]
Logan Murdoch
So I'm not getting it.
- [15:20]
Howard Beck
Yeah. So we don't know who's voting. I think it's damn close right now. I do think SGA has the lead based partially on the role he plays for that team and partially on the higher per game stats and all that. Signature games are a tricky thing. I do think that when you're in a 2:2 series and the series is hanging in the balance and SG had a great game last night, but Jalen Williams had the game last night. Right. So I think that will linger in people's minds. I do think like, okay, they're going back to Indy for game six and it may just be who has the bigger game six at this stage. Like, I think they're both worthy. So real quick, the rundown SGA in the series is averaging 32 points, four and a half rebounds, five assists. J Dub is 26 points. So six points per game, less 5.6 rebounds. So slightly more rebounds, 4.2 assists, which, you know, for the guy who's not the quote unquote point Guard of the team. He's not that far behind SGA for assists in the series. Shooting splits. SGA shooting 47% from the field, 30% from three. Not great. 92% from the line and it's 46 of 50 on free throws. Like he's doing what he does. He's getting the line a ton. J Dub 45% from the field, 32% on threes. Also not great. 83% on. On. On free throws. What I say 32% on threes and then 83% on free throws. I may have misspoke. SGA's got 12 steals to JDubs four. SJ's got nine blocks to. To zero for. For J Dub. The SJ's got 15 turnovers to JDub's 11. Also by the way, just field goal field goal attempts in the series. So just who's been carrying more of the. Shouldering more of the load as you would expect, SGA 116 to 94. JDubs also had a lot of defense. I mean they've both had taken their turns on Tyrese Halliburton. Yeah, I think J Dub is kind of the bigger defensive force among the two of them on this team. But like again, SJ's blocks are. Are off the charts.
- [17:34]
Logan Murdoch
This is another thing that I was thinking about last night when talking when I'm thinking about SGA's case. Like, J Dub had the great scoring night and he played really good defense. But there were times where there were lulls within the Oklahoma City offense, both offensively and defensively. Like you talk about the runs that the Pacers would make and I look back on it every time the Pacers made a run. SGA was the calming force for that Oklahoma City offense. Right. He either he had a great block or he. I think they went home. I got to check. I put it in the story. But like with. When Pascal Siakam like gets the lead down to four, there's a hockey assist from Shay, right? When. When I think McConnell gets it down to like 2, there's a SGA like 3 to. To respond, right? Or there's like a key block from SGA at that time, right. He was really that calming force. Like if you. He really catapulted to them to a win because like when they got it down to two, like you were saying, SGA makes the hockey assisted jalen for that three and then they go on a 15 to four run to close out the game. Like it was one of where he may not have scored as Much, but his impact was felt. I think he had four blocks last night. Like, SGA was all over the floor in a way that he may not have had the scoring output. And he was not the story of the game, but I feel like he facilitated the story of the game happening, if you will.
- [19:09]
Howard Beck
Yes. Yeah. And part of what makes SGA the MVP of the league during the regular season, part of what makes him one of the greatest players in the league right now, he's a, he's, you know, he's a guy who can lead the league in scoring every year if he wants to, but he empowers his teammates. Right. And the Thunder are far from a one man show. It is, it is their overall talent and depth that we've been praising throughout. And you know, you know, Jalen Williams doesn't get to do what he does without Shea. Gil just Alexander being, you know, supportive and a facilitator and a guy who doesn't need to dominate the ball or dominate the offense on, on every possession. And so like, he deserves a ton of credit for making room for that, being a great teammate, being a great leader. And you've heard that throughout his time in Oklahoma that that's kind of the way he's wired and it's part of what makes this team great. You know, like, back to the MVP discussion too, like, so I started looking like, all right, because it felt like Jalen Williams had led a bunch of games in scoring. Now it's actually split. He's led them twice in five games. Shay's led them three times, and they each did it once in a loss. So like Shay's highest scoring game was 38 in game one, which they lost a game that, by the way, like.
- [20:22]
Logan Murdoch
Again, like, they were the better team most of that game.
- [20:25]
Howard Beck
They were the better team for like all but about a handful of minutes of that game, like down to this. And so, and he's the reason. So like, that very easily could have gone the other way. So he, he scores 38 in the first game. That was team high. He has a team high 34 in the second game, which was obviously a win. Game three, which they lost. Jalen Williams is 26, Shea has 24. And then Shea led in game four with 35 to. Jalen Williams is 27. And then it goes Jalen Williams with the 40 last night to, to Shea's 31. So like, I, I think it's pretty close right now. I'm not sure which. I think I probably lean slightly. Shay for Finals MVP at the moment. But it's really hard to do that with the memory, the very, very fresh memory of Jalen Williams's Game 5, because that was freaking awesome.
- [21:15]
Logan Murdoch
See, that's why I say it's a narrative award, right? Just put the stats out there. But it's about the feeling that you get in the moment based on the performance that has happened, right?
- [21:23]
Howard Beck
Depends on the year. Like, sometimes it's definitive, right? Like any year that LeBron's team won it, you're pretty damn sure LeBron is the, is the whole frickin reason, right? Yeah, there I, I think there are years where it's clear and I think there are years where you got to kind of get into the stats and like, which, which game kind of tipped the series? Is it, you know, and was it bigger than the stats? Was there anything else to take into consider? Like, there are years where you're right, there's some narrative influence. I think obviously the Iguodala year is, is probably a prime example.
- [21:54]
Logan Murdoch
But this is more like a recency one though, right? Because if Cache's game, you can make the argument in game four was like a harder get, right? Because they're, they're the pacers of the winning the entire game. And then Shade just turns it all right down the stretch, right? Setting the stage for J Dub. Not to say it was a, it was a hard game. I mean, it was an easier game to, to. To pull out because game fives are just, are just swing games that are hard. But the, the balancing act of what are we going to choose as the better game? If you, if, if, if you're going to choose a better game, like, you're probably going to choose, you know, the, the flashier one or the one that you most recently, you know, saw and you know, you. That's what I'm taking. It's my. This is not a narrative award this year. This is probably like a reason to see like whoever wins back to. Back to back, right? Like, it's, it's, it's such an interesting way to look at it this year because, I mean, they're kind of at a, they're kind of at an impasse right now. When you look at just, just the games that they've had in this series, it's. I've just also been blown away just like from the, the team that. Because coming back to Oklahoma City, you know, I'm constantly thinking about the, how this team stacks up with the, the, the, the KD Westbrook Harden years, right? And those comparisons are inevitably going to Be there. But I've just been blown away by the chemistry of this OKC team, right? Just like, you know, Chet after the game was like, we have to give flowers to J Dub, right? And it was in earnest. Same with sga. Like, it seemed like they were really, really excited in a very young, earnest type of way for their teammate. And in a league full of egos and a league full of I need to get mine, I need to get paid, I need to do all these. This team has, like, great aau, like, we're on the road together vibes, where they're just on the road and they're just kicking it and they're really trying to see, you know, each other do great. And, you know, you talk to some of the. The OKC officials, like, they talk. They talk about how this is an environment in Shay's ilk, right? Like, you talk about a guy like Chet Holmgren who came in with a little bit of an ego, but he's just kind of just fallen in line under Shay, right? Talk about J Dub balling out, but, like, this is still in large part Shay's team, but the chemistry is just amazing. And I don't think it's forced. I think these guys really love each other. That's so rare in this NBA. And you kind of have two teams that have that with the Pacers and the Thunder, and it's. I've just been blown away by just, like, team camaraderie after years of just seeing just, I don't know, just, you know, the locker room that I go. That I've been. That I've come from Howard and just, you know how it can occasionally get a little. So it was just good to see, like, just a cool little environment where, like, you know, they're just so young and they're just so earnest and just so happy to see each other shine.
- [25:00]
Howard Beck
Yeah, there's like a young innocence to them, right? Like, you know, egos and contracts and petty whatever bullshit hasn't gotten in the way yet and maybe never will. Right. They don't all have to go down that road, you know, I think that goes to, too, though. Like, we sometimes. I'll say, it's like we joke about it like, this team is a little bit. Feels bland at times. Not as. Not the way they play basketball. Just like, you're not getting a lot. Like, they're pretty. They're pretty conservative. They might give you long answers. And by the way, Jalen Williams on. On the podium is awesome. Like that guy. Like, I think I counted 12 questions he took last night and answered them all pretty, pretty elaborately. Like, there was only one that he kind of rebuffed a little. And it was about trying to like, put in perspective. Like, does, is this a coming of age game? Or like, whatever, where does. You know, what is even?
- [25:49]
Logan Murdoch
That answer was thoughtful, though, when he was like, I just can't talk about it right now because I just don't know. I'm so young and I'm like, wow, this is very, very mature answer for a guy in his early 20s.
- [25:59]
Howard Beck
The shortest answer he gave was still the product of a thoughtful, just process where it was like. And he, and he was almost apologetic, like, I can get back to you on that one sometime down the road. Like, I just, I'm not. So he wasn't saying it any kind of rude way. He wasn't being curt. But they, they don't necessarily give away a lot as a team. I think that that's kind of a typical Thunder thing. They're kind of like the old spurs, where it's like we're, we're playing everything close to the vest. But there, there's like, there's a lot there. You can see there's a lot going on there that they're just not letting you. You in on. But they're very endearing. Right? Like, I know people get a little cynical about or a little just jaded about, you know, the group post game interviews with Nick Gallo from the local network here and, you know, all the, all the yucking it up there. They do it with the, they do it on the national broadcasts too, right? Where it's always like, it's never just one guy doing the post game. It's all of them doing the post game interview on the court. But there's something endearing to that, too. We can't, we can't get too dismissive and jaded right off the bat. But yeah, these guys all still like each other and support each other and are having fun together while they're just dominating the crap out of the league. And that's refreshing because, yes, you and I have seen some rather tense warriors championships, and of course, back in the day, I saw some rather tense Laker championships with Shaq and Kobe. And so not every team does it at this level while still liking each other and all being on the same page.
- [27:32]
Logan Murdoch
It's early, but like, you know, it, it seems to the point about, like them being bland being out here. I don't know necessarily know that they're. I don't think that they're bland necessarily. I think that they, there's a combination of things. One, they're like, this is like the, the Gen Z ist team of all time. Right, right. They're always on their phones. They're always just like, you know, sending memes. They're very much the, the, the Pinterest generation of a team. But I do think that they're interesting, but I think that they're like kind of closed off just because in the sense of Gen Z just being, having a barrier to the world while also being chronically online. But also they're, they have a, like you said, they have a media staff which is like, nah, this has been happening. Stop.
- [28:23]
Howard Beck
We don't need to go down that, we don't need to go down that road today.
- [28:25]
Logan Murdoch
But yeah, we don't. We don't. But I'm just saying that's the, that's what it is. But I think that the more what I'm getting at is they speak to their generation. I wrote a story about Gen Z a couple weeks back, and the Oklahoma City Thunder are the face of whatever this new generation is and how they act. They're very in tune with whatever that is right now. And it's the first time where I feel old watching a team. You know, I just, I feel like I'm getting older. I'm not quite you yet, Beck, but like, I'm feeling older, but I feel like this is like the first team where, you know, they're speaking to a younger generation and that younger generation understands them wholeheartedly. And we're, we're still trying to figure them out, but whoever they're speaking to, they're speaking too loud and clearly. And I know I'm getting really philosophical and waxing poetic, but that's what I get from this type of team.
- [29:16]
Howard Beck
Yeah, it's funny because I think about, like, you know, if you grow up in the, in the digital age, it's not just that you're digitally savvy, it's also that you're hyper aware of the fact that everything is being consumed and judged and whatever. And so some of that might just be them being, you know, conservative based on the idea that we, we know that everything we say and do is going to be, you know, scrutinized to the nth degree and maybe there's caution about it. I think it's mostly just the way they're wired though. I think it's just, it happens to be the personality of the guys at this team, drafted or acquired right there's there's not like a big time shit talker on this team or a shit stirrer on this team. There's nobody who's really going to get out there and like, Lou Dork got.
- [29:58]
Logan Murdoch
Some shit starting in him, though. He do got some. He just. Lou Dort, he just fouls the out of you. He has some. Like, I will start some if need be. Don't trip.
- [30:08]
Howard Beck
Yeah, but like, I think like, if we were ranking guys in the series by like, I don't know how emphatic they are on the court in a way, like, how much personality they show after they've done stuff like it might. TJ McConnell might win. Actually, it's, it's obviously Tyrese, right? Like, Tyrese is the biggest shit stirrer of this postseason. T.J. mcConnell might be second. Like, I don't know how far down the list we have to go before we actually get to the Thunder. They're like, they again, like, they kind of play it close to the best. They're not out there trying to just like cause issues with the other team or each other or the refs or whatever else. Hell, Carlisle's ranking way ahead of them. Carl Carlisle was all over the refs last night, man. He was. That was a testy car.
- [30:51]
Logan Murdoch
After, after he got attack after he defended the refs, which was amazing. It was awesome.
- [30:58]
Howard Beck
Yes. He goes out of his way to do the Scott Foster like, apologia. I've never known how to. I just made it sound like Apollonia. Like he, he goes out of the.
- [31:11]
Logan Murdoch
Did you watch Purple Rain? Did you watch Purple Rain?
- [31:14]
Howard Beck
I saw it in the theaters. I saw it in the theaters, Logan. All right, there you go.
- [31:18]
Logan Murdoch
Damn. Okay, well, shit.
- [31:20]
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- [32:07]
Howard Beck
His way to defend Scott Foster, which, by the way, I'm just going to say it. Y' all can hate me for it. Rick Carlisle is right. And all of you who are like, like, fretting about Scott Foster and, like, spinning conspiracy theories, you all are wrong. And the extender, yeah, it's all stupid. So, yeah, Carlyle goes from that to be like, absolute first quarter meltdown. I was. I was looking at the monitor at one point, so I could see when Carlyle was being held back by pretty much like, every single member of his staff. And at one point looked like Jenny Bouck went to him to say, like, you know, yo, are you going to be all right?
- [32:42]
Logan Murdoch
He's like, I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good.
- [32:44]
Howard Beck
I could. Yeah, yeah. I could see his, like. Like I was reading lips, and he was like, I'm all right. I'm all right. But it was. It was like. It was actually like a welfare check going on there in real time.
- [32:55]
Logan Murdoch
Howard, sometimes I got to do that with you. Sometimes, like, you know, you go in office, like, during our hour and a half conversations on the phone, I'm like, howard, Howard, you good? I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm locked.
- [33:05]
Howard Beck
I'm all right.
- [33:05]
Logan Murdoch
Damn it. I'm good.
- [33:08]
Howard Beck
You. I may have done that to you a couple times, too. I'm sorry. So last night, you were in the Thunder press conference primarily. I was at the Pacers press conference primarily. They're in separate rooms. Carlisle. So the very first question to Carlisle was naturally about Halliburton, because Halliburton's hurt and, you know, not only had a bad game, but, like, he had a bad game because he's got a bad calf, which leads to natural curiosity about, like, can Halliburton, you know, hold up and. And make it a bigger impact on game six? So the first question, of course. Of course to Carlisle is about Halliburton. Second question was about Jalen Williams having a huge game and about the inability to stop him, which, again, natural progression of questions. Carlisle's about, like, a sentence or two into his response on the J Dub question. The second question, and he goes, nobody's asking about turnovers. We had 23 turnovers for 32 points. That's the game. And so he's. He couldn't wait to talk about the turnovers, which. Okay, fine. And I. I think probably the room would have gotten around to the questions about turnovers. We were only on the second question and the first one was the obvious one about Halliburton and the second one was like a pretty, you know, obvious one about Jalen Williams. But like, yeah, Carlisle was in, in fine Carlisle form last night.
- [34:26]
Logan Murdoch
Listen, car. Listen, Rick, I love you. I love watching you've coached your ass off throughout this. He's awesome throughout your career. He's all great. But I just want to say, Rick, turnovers don't sell sexy hotlines headlines, bro. It's just like it doesn't. I'm sorry, Ax Dollinger. It's not, it's not like it say, you know, 23 turnovers. That's not going to sell any papers, buddy. It's not going to sell any subs. We got to put some sauce on it.
- [34:53]
Howard Beck
I mean, they did get close in the fourth two. It was like two point game or whatever. And then like just a flurry of turnovers like that again. I think they had eight in the.
- [35:00]
Logan Murdoch
Fourth quarter of the game. But I'm just saying, like, we're trying to. We're. We're trying to sell a fucking fledgling journalism right now. And he's fucking. Let's talk about turnovers, how it works.
- [35:09]
Howard Beck
But also the first two questions were valid and I think we would have gotten around to it eventually, so. But you know, it just. This is more about Carlisle being testy than it is about journalists. Logan, come on, yo.
- [35:20]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, but he was tested earlier when he was talking about Scott Fox roster. Our guy Sam Avic wanted to ask a follow up. He's like, I'm not talking about it anymore. I'm like, come on, dude. Come on, come on. Oh, man. Anyways, let's talk about Halliburton, who calf in the finals, injured his calf early in the. In. In this game. Wasn't the same talking. And you know, me and you, you've been around the game longer than I have been around a minute. Getting a calf injury in this type of environment doesn't spell good things. And anytime you hear Cav, depending on the severity, you're kind of like, I don't know what's next and I don't want to. And I'm knocking on wood right now with Halliburton. But like, what can we reasonably expect from him in game six? He was hobbled throughout the night. He didn't really have his explosiveness throughout game five. And if, if I'm looking and I'm. And I'm quarterbacking this thing, it feels like the Pacers are the most equipped to deal with a game that Halliburton isn't good or effective in more than most teams. But it's still a finals game, right? What do what gives with Halliburton? What do you think is going. How is this going to affect him the rest of the series? You were in the Pacers presser. I didn't really get to see Halliburton other than what he was doing on the floor. What is the read from Pacerland about what is going on with him at this moment?
- [36:45]
Howard Beck
Just kind of resigned to the fact that he's not 100% and is not going to be. And you, you get a lot of the, you know again this was Carlisle a lot of like oh everybody's banged up this time of year kind of stuff. But it's like eh, there's banged up and then there's like can't move so well out there. And it's obvious right? Like Halliburton, I know like his game. We talked about this weeks ago with Raja. Like his game is not like oh, dribble, dribble, dribble, blow by you kind of thing. Right? He's not, he's not a blow by type of point guard in general. That's not how he gets his points. It's not how he makes an impact most of the time. But that is you know, part of his game. Part of any guy, you know who's a primary playmaker is going to be breaking down the defense on some level. And he just wasn't even attacking last night. Like you could, you could see it. And he was noticeably limping out of the arena after game two here and then nevertheless comes back and leads them to, to win in Game 3. And he played really well in that game. He was okay in four. And then like last night it was just really clear like I don't know if he aggravated it it like we haven't learned a lot about the nature of the injury or when it was first hurt. Maybe reheart all that stuff. So it's just kind of a, you know, it's the stuff you expect. Carlisle saying everybody's banged up this time of year. Halliburton saying whatever I'm playing in game six and I'll, I'll do better in game six. You know that's. There is a 72 hour break built in when you get to this stage of the series. When you get to the 111 part of the 221 1. Every two games span is spaced out by three days basically. Right. So they traveled probably first thing last night. As soon as, as they left Their media availabilities. They got all day today. There's a practice day tomorrow where no team will even practice. They'll both do film sessions, then they'll meet with the media, and then you got all day Thursday up until game time. So, like, it's a pretty long stretch. But when I, I say that, like, it just depends on the nature of the injury, right? Like, maybe three days off is enough to, to like, make him feel better for game six. Or maybe this is a deeper injury that doesn't heal until weeks off and it's just a matter of him having to gut it out again. But we don't know enough to know what that means. I mean, you referenced, you know, Kobe's game four back in 2000. That was one where, you know, Jalen Rose undercuts him, he turns his ankle like a really bad, as bad of an ankle sprain as you're going to get, sits an entire game and then comes back in game four when nobody expected him to even play. Like, that's a, that was a different kind of thing. But an interesting analogy, just for finals sake, because, like, we don't have, like, serious injuries in the Finals too often to reference, I just say we'll say this if Halliburton's not close to 100%, like, I just think they're toast at that point. He's like, this is an ensemble, right? Tyrese, Halliburton and Siakam, those are the two tent poles of that offense. And it's a lot of ball movement and it's a lot of just getting each other open for good shots. And it's, you know, Neesmith attacking at times, Siakam attacking at times. But it's got to start somewhere. And it starts with Halliburton and, you know, yeah, you can get a nice six minute burst from TJ McConnell here and there, and maybe you get a nem hard game or whatever, but like, someone's got to initiate. And, you know, Tyrese Halberton is the heart and soul of this team. If he's that limited as he was last night, I just, it's hard to see how they pull this out.
- [40:19]
Logan Murdoch
I'm concerned. I, I, not only for the injury, but, like, it's not like the Pacers playing offense conducive to kind of hiding an injury like that. If it's a lower leg injury, they get up and run, right? And that's going to be something that tests your body. It's so wild that, you know, the Pacers offense has done Such a great job of like, just keeping the pace and what it is and running guys out of the gym and run. And now it seems like that's kind of the demise of, of their own roster right now because they are, you know, expending so much energy. But you're right, like, I think that this Halliburton injury is just really, really concerning because no matter what he, his stats say, he is the heart and soul of that offense, right? Where like, he, he gets them up and down the floor. He's the one that facilitates. He's the one that gets guys in position. I mean, we can, they can pray for another T.J. mcConnell game, but that's not going to have the same effect as the Tyrese Halliburton fully healthy game in the finals. Right? Like, this is just not that they're going to need a monster game from Siakam, but dude, when the Thunder turn on their defensive pressure, it is alarming. How great how. Oh my God. Like that first half, the Thunder could even the, Excuse me, the Pacers couldn't even get a shot off. I don't know how many like, shot clock violations or near shot clock violations there were, but there were, I counted at least two or three in that first half and they could just, the Thunder can just turn it on and they have. Hartenstein got some big rebounds. Chet was, was, was getting some big rebounds. Also, Miles Turner got into foul trouble, which wasn't ideal. Right. It, the Pacers have a lot that they, that a lot that they have to figure out going into game six. But it starts with Halliburton. But they got to figure out how Halliburton or not, they got to figure out that Thunder defense, which good luck with that. Is all I'll say. It's going to be tough in game six. Man, I just, I, I, I don't want to make hyperboles because there's, there's or make declarations because there's this, this has just been such an unpredictable series, but man, it felt like the Thunder took control of it last night.
- [42:40]
Howard Beck
Our colleague Michael Pina had this in his, you know, quick turn gamer after the game story after the the game last night, the Pacers turnover rate was 23.7%. That was its second highest of the entire season and the highest one was game one of the finals. So like, here's the Pacers, who I think that's one of their hallmarks is they're a pretty low turnover team and their two highest turnover games of the entire season, regular season, and postseason are in this series against the Thunder. Like, they're just. I mean, we. We saw it throughout the Western Conference playoffs, too. It was. I had joked about, like, in that series against Minnesota, like, I'm sitting there on the couch, like, I'm jumpy for the Timberwolves. Like, stop dribbling. You're going to have the balls about to get poked away. Oh, there it goes. There they go the other direction. Like, they just. They're relentless at their best. They are just absolutely relentless. And you can't penetrate and you can't dribble and you can't get anything done. And they were just freaking locked in last night. And it's one thing to see it.
- [43:42]
Logan Murdoch
On tv, but to see that in person is just diabolical, man.
- [43:45]
Howard Beck
And especially in Oklahoma, where every. Every one of those stops, there's just this freaking explosion in the arena. It's just. They're just really impressive. Like, we've seen some great defensive teams over the years, but I don't know that there's one where it's as emphatic and as relentless as this one, where you almost are feeling sorry for the other team that they just can't even make a pass or a dribble without the ball being poked away. And it's, you know, fast break the other direction. I think somewhere along the way here, the Thunder just. It's not that they woke up, right? Like, Game one was. Was like, a rough end for them. They dominated the game. They lost anyway. Kind of a dud in Game three, Enough so that a lot of people thought, okay, the Pacers are actually going to win this series. Like, a lot of people, including some of our colleagues, expected the Pacers to win Game 4, but I think somewhere along the way, they're like, the Thunder kind of, like, found their identity again. Like, all right, like, we're just going to lock these guys down, and that's going to generate our offense, and we'll just go from there. And the last couple of games have just been super impressive, man.
- [44:51]
Logan Murdoch
It's just. It's. You can't take a finals game for granted, man. I know the Pacers are just kicking their ass that they just couldn't close out game four, man, because you just can't give away that type of game. Oof. Who wins game six, buddy?
- [45:10]
Howard Beck
Don't want to be prisoner of the moment, but this certainly feels like the Thunder are ready to close out. And then some of that, too, is just like, we don't know what Halliburton's ability will be physically on Thursday night. And so based on what we saw last night, based on the momentum, that it feels like a momentum is a funny thing, right? Like, this is, this is total, like, overreaction theater. We do this in every single series, all the time. The momentum seems like it's with one team right up until the point.
- [45:36]
Logan Murdoch
Are you saying we're hacks, man? Are you calling us hacks? Is that what you're saying?
- [45:39]
Howard Beck
No, I'm, It's. I'm saying we're human, Logan.
- [45:42]
Logan Murdoch
Okay. Okay.
- [45:44]
Howard Beck
All of us, media, fans, everybody, we all overreact to the, to the latest thing we saw. It's a thing. But the Thunder seemed to have found that gear again and on top of it. And also, you know, they, they've, they've won in Indy. That's. That's like, I don't think winning on the road is an issue for them at all. And more than anything, it's the doubts about Halliburton. Like, like, the story of this postseason in a lot of ways has been the Pacers justifying the odds to get here at all. Like. And yes to those who, who Thunder fans who are annoyed, especially because I think it was part of the headline on one of my Tyrese stories last week about, like, the story of the season being the Pacers. Like, there's a lot to the idea the Pacers were the story of the finals in the sense that no one expected them to be here. Yes, of course, as a Thunder win the championship, they are the story of the season. It's more that the Pacers are one of the unlikeliest finals teams we've seen in a while. And they're here because of Tyrese Halliburton's heroics, all these incredible comebacks, all these incredible last minute or last second shots and buzzer beaters. And so I say that to say, like, without Tyrese Halliburton's magic, which I don't think happens on a bad calf, it's just really hard to see them extending the series. And yeah, I think the Thunder probably closing this thing out on Thursday.
- [47:07]
Logan Murdoch
The only thing that gives me pause on that is, you know, Thunder are a young team. It's really hard to close on the road, man. It is really hard no matter what the circumstances is. But, like, this is a very young team. They haven't. It's one thing to, like, get the three, two series lead, but it's another thing to follow through on that promise. I still pick the Thunder, but I do want to hedge A little bit and just say like, hey man, it's really hard. And they have been susceptible to fumbling the bag, if you will. So, I mean, Thunder and six, but it's, it's going to be a tough one.
- [47:44]
Howard Beck
It won't be easy. It won't be easy. That Pacers crowd is going to be really fired up and they've been awesome. And I think, you know, you're going to see, you're going to see the Pacers at their best. Like, they're not going to go down without a fight. It's just that from the beginning and it's the reason that most of us picked Thunder and five in the first place. The Oklahoma's just got more talent and depth and bodies to throw at you. And their defense is just ferocious. The Pacers, to their credit, have gone from a team that was this supercharged offense where defense was kind of an afterthought and it was like, are they ever going to be able to, you know, have a sustained postseason run without that deed? They have come so far as a team defensively over the last year or so, but it's just not the level of Oklahoma, like, because nobody is. And I just think it's too much to overcome.
- [48:37]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, look at you, man. You're going to, if all goes the way you just said it is, you're going to have cover. Two championship celebrations in Indianapolis. It's crazy.
- [48:48]
Howard Beck
Both at a game six, 25 years apart. How about that? I did, I did like try to figure this out over the course of the last week just to make myself feel really old. Because it hit me when we got to Indy. I'm like, man, I was here for the finals in 2000. And I looked around the room, I'm like, how many other people were here for the finals in 2000? And there's a lot of NBA officials and cameramen and others. My buddy Victor from espn, who's long time cameraman, who we go all the way back to the Laker days. There's some people, but I was trying to think of like print media or primarily print media. And I think it's only four of us who were there in 2000 for Lakers, Pacers, who are here for Thunder, Pacers. It's, it's me, Steve Ashburner, who's@NBA.com, sean Powell, who's NBA.com and NBA TV and. And the legend, David Aldridge from the Athletic. As far as I know, it's just the four of us who are here now or will be in there, be at Indy, and we're in INDY and in 2000, so. Yeah, that's weird.
- [49:49]
Logan Murdoch
Damn. You try to. You try to push back on my old jokes, and then you just, like, you know, confirm it's fine.
- [49:56]
Howard Beck
I'm my own worst enemy. Been that way my entire life.
- [50:01]
Logan Murdoch
All right, we're. We're almost out of time, but, like, do you. Let's. Let's. You want to give, like, five minutes of the Desmond Bain trade? You the one that put it on there. We have. We haven't given our take on the Desmond Bain trade. How do you feel about the Desmond Bain trade?
- [50:13]
Howard Beck
I mean, it was a. It was a fairly facetious suggestion given that we were talking in the wake of Game 5 of the Finals, but, I mean, it was a. It's funny, too, because, like, and I'm. I'm glad that I think Tom Ziller already knocked down the whole thing of, like, please, can we stop calling everything a blockbuster? This was not a blockbuster. A Desmond Bain trade is not a blockbuster. I think he said it was a. Oh, God. What do you say Was like a. God. What was the other like?
- [50:42]
Logan Murdoch
Don't up the shout out for Tom Ziller. He's a legend. Look. Look up. What the. What do you mean? How you gonna that up? How are you gonna. Come on, man. Come on.
- [50:50]
Howard Beck
I just gave him the shout out. How am I it up? I just forgot. He got a great line about they weren't blockbuster. They were like, you gotta follow through.
- [50:56]
Logan Murdoch
On the line, my dog.
- [50:57]
Howard Beck
All right. Yeah. Sorry.
- [50:59]
Logan Murdoch
I'm just saying. Shadow Tom. Okay. Jesus.
- [51:02]
Howard Beck
The listeners should know that. That because Logan's got a plane to catch, we did this a little early. And so, like, you know, I'm not at my sharpest. You expect stuff. I read like an hour ago.
- [51:13]
Logan Murdoch
Put some respect on Tom Ziller's name is all.
- [51:15]
Howard Beck
I'm just saying shout out to Ziller. Everybody's go subscribe to his. His newsletter. It's not a blockbuster trade. Desmond B. Is not a big enough name. Like, I know that a lot of draft picks change hands and stuff, but calm down, people.
- [51:29]
Logan Murdoch
Oh, my God, bro. The amount of, like, armchair gms that were on the timeline after that trade, I'm like, bro, give me a break. Break. Stop. Relax.
- [51:40]
Howard Beck
Listen, I. I like it for Orlando in that, yes, they desperately needed shooting. Yes. Desmond Bane's a two way player. He's. He's, you know, pretty good defender as well. Yes, he has developed quite a bit as a playmaker, but they still don't have a. An actual primary playmaker. He's a great secondary playmaker on a team that still has no primary playmaker. That's not Paolo and that's not Franz, and it's not Suggs. And I think it's still kind of a weird lineup. I don't think this suddenly puts them in the mix to win the east next year. I think it gets them further into the discussion. I'm still not completely convinced. And there's. Look, there's a lot of off season to go. We were, you know, this June 17th. The draft hasn't even happened yet. The finals aren't even over yet. It's weird that we have a trade of this magnitude, not a blockbuster, just, you know, just significant at this time. But they've got plenty of time left this summer to do other stuff, and maybe they find themselves somebody who's a little bit more of a. Of a pure playmaker type who can kind of pull this all together and get Banchero and Franz Wagner easier shots and make that offense a little more efficient. Because for all of the raw numbers those guys put up, it's not been an efficient offense. They've won on their defense, primarily. And look, like before people start proclaiming them favorites in the east, like, could we give the Pacers, like, five minutes to enjoy the fact that they just made one of the most incredible runs to the finals coming out of the east that we've seen unexpected. And the Cavs presumably, are going to have their big Four back together, and the Knicks will probably, you know, get a couple more guys on the bench, and they might even hire a coach at some point.
- [53:19]
Logan Murdoch
Don't forget about Cliff Sixers. Okay? Relax. All right, Come on, now.
- [53:22]
Howard Beck
Come on, Joel Embiid might be healthy for two weeks, 10 or 20 games.
- [53:27]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah.
- [53:28]
Howard Beck
So there's that. No, look, Listen, I've been Mr. Optimist on the Sixers, so a healthyish Embiid, plus everything Cliff is. Cliff has given us the SMH chat text. Like, there's a world. There is a world in which the Sixers are a factor in the east next year. I will say it. I don't even. I'm not even, like, crossing the Celtics out. I know Tatum's missing the whole season, but let's see what they do. How much do they tear it down? How much do they make this a gap year versus, like, Jalen Brown's still a damn good player and they got a lot of talent around him. Like, I. I think. I think that it's still kind of a mishmash atop the east. And I'm not ready to proclaim the magic the favorites on the basis of a Desmond Bain acquisition before I get.
- [54:13]
Logan Murdoch
To, like, my little arms here analysis. I just to your point about, like it. Whether or not it's a blockbuster trade. If this was like, 04 or something, would this even, like, move the needle? Because I feel like the. The. What I thought about with this trade and people going all up in arms in it. It's basically like what I was saying about just the media landscape on the press box. We're just a transactions league now, you know, like, why are we up in our. Like, it's the finals are on, bro. Like, who cares? You know, why are we just up. And Desmond Bain is a fine player. I think he's. I think he's really good. I. I think that he would be better served as maybe a fourth or fifth guy as opposed to a second or third guy. But, like, nonetheless, I. I do enjoy watching him play. That being said, I just don't, like, think this should move the needle in a way that it's a fine trade over for an ancillary piece.
- [55:08]
Howard Beck
Yes, he's a very good ancillary piece, but he's an ancillary piece.
- [55:11]
Logan Murdoch
He's an ancillary piece. Like, we're not supposed to just talk about the fucking finals, man. What are we doing?
- [55:17]
Howard Beck
All right, so because you've, like, chastised me and basically, like, falsely accused me of somehow, like, you know, demeaning Tom Ziller, I did just pull this up. So to quote Tom Ziller in his newsletter, we need a collectively approved name for really big trades that don't involve any players that have ever made an all star team. It's not a, quote, blockbuster trade if many casual fans don't recognize the key player involved as a star, even though he is. Let's call it a Hollywood video trade then. So There's a very 90s reference for you that. Because it's been so long since I've rented a video, I couldn't even remember that Hollywood video existed as the alternative to Blockbuster. So there you go. Great line from Ziller. I hope I've made amends enough for you, Logan.
- [56:01]
Logan Murdoch
You have. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Also, man, Hollywood video, they used to have one in Alameda that we. That was the one where we used to go to. To go get videos. There was a. There was a Papa Murphy's around.
- [56:15]
Howard Beck
Papa Murphy's.
- [56:16]
Logan Murdoch
You don't know about Papa Murphy's uh, are you not. Papa Murphy's is where they would, they would make this the pizza for you, but you would heat it up at the crib. So we would get a big ass pizza. They would like it's like a, not a. Quite a half bake but like they would put all the toppings and figure it out and then you would put it in the, in the oven. But anyways, in Alameda they would have a Hollywood Video and then we would have to go to the east on a 35th to go to Blockbuster, but we would normally go to Hollywood Video, get us a little video, then get a Papa Murphy's pizza. That'd be our dinner for like the next two days. So you know, shout out to Hollywood Video. The real ones know. Anyways, my analysis on this thing, it doesn't really move the needle in any sort of way. I mean, I guess like the, the interesting thing though is. And one thing that I want to get your take on, Mr. Aggregation, what does it say about. What does this say about the Memphis Grizzlies and what they have going forward? Right, because it is noteworthy that they traded away a guy that they were supposed to. Was supposedly a franchise pillar for some picks. Right. I don't know who's next, but what I do know is Jaren Jackson Jr. Has a big extension looming and he kind of is who he is as a player. Not saying he's a, he's a fairly good player, but like, I don't know if he is necessarily the guy that will facilitate a title and somebody you might want to. I, I could see a team not wanting to pay such an extension and go long term. And then we have ja, who you have spoken about and may or may not have gotten mad at the response of what you did. I'm not necessarily as mad as you are. But you have ja, who is. Has the injury history, has the type of game that isn't conducive to long term success, hasn't really evolved. This might be a little. It might, may or may not be a rebuild on the horizon, don't you think?
- [58:15]
Howard Beck
There's a lot to digest on the grizzly side of this and I don't think this is a clear indication of one direction or the other. Right. Like they had a. What we all acknowledged was a pseudo Big Three. We addressed this on the pot a couple months ago where it's like, this isn't really a big three. Right. They've got three very, very good players. But Ja, it's like two and a.
- [58:35]
Logan Murdoch
Quarter, what's that, like two and a quarter?
- [58:39]
Howard Beck
Yeah, but it's no, but like even each, each one of them individually, like there's not a top 15 player among them. You know, like jaw supposed to be that guy and he, and he hasn't been partially because of injuries, partially because of just nonsense. Jaren Jackson Jr. Flirts with all NBA and so there are times he could be top 12, top 15. Bane is like more of a top 30 guy. So it's like three really, really good players but not three absolute studs and not three perennial all NBA types and, or even two perennial all NBA types. And when it starts getting expensive and when you're starting to like you've reached your ceiling as constructed, I think the smart thing to do as a front office is to say like, all right, I know it's hard. Like we've got, we found some really good players here and you know, Bain was a later pick and all this but like you can't get sentimental about it or fall in love with your own work. And you got to decide as I think that they have make a sober minded decision to say this is as far as this team's getting. We gotta, we gotta, we gotta give ourselves some flexibility and trading Bain. There's a scenario here where, and it's probably the more likely scenario where they're keeping John, they're keeping Jaren Jackson Jr. And they're using the Bain trade to restock picks and gain a little cap flexibility and let's see what they do with it next. Like are they packaging those picks to go get a guy? Are they, you know, is there more kind of paring down to happen? I don't know. I'm very curious to see what step two is and I don't think we have a clear read yet.
- [60:18]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, I mean there's, there's also the Zach Edie ankle thing that's probably going to know it's gonna linger. I don't know how long he's gonna be out. It's gonna be a few months. I mean we'll see how. Yeah, it's, it's a kind of a murky timeline. You know, I, I, I don't know. But to your point about the new NBA, if you're not in love with your team, you have to pivot quickly with this apron. Right? Like this is, that's just something you have to do. And I think that's just another example of that. Right. I mean I think that Memphis and the reason why, and I don't have as Much intel as Howard Beck, but just looking at the tea leaves, like, there's nothing to suggest that, like the Grizzlies, as currently constructed, can get past what they've been over the last couple of years. There feels like a ceiling here anyway. That would be the argument to moving Jaren Jackson or moving JA and just starting from scratch. Right. Like, you kind of are what you are with this roster. You are what you are with this team. And I mean, that's. I mean, that's kind of what you were in line, I would think, when you said what you said during the All Star break, which is like this team kind of is who it is. It seems like it is like it's hit a ceiling and if we have to, we might have to pivot based on all of the things that have happen over the last few years.
- [61:44]
Howard Beck
Yeah. And again, just to clarify, so what Logan's referring to for those who missed it at the time. But like I had said during All Star break that I was told by.
- [61:52]
Logan Murdoch
The real ones live, so live in San Francisco at the motherfucking Punchline.
- [61:56]
Howard Beck
Which was awesome. That a rival executive said to me, keep an eye on Jaw this summer. And so then that went viral and aggregated and all the bullshit and it. And listen, I like there's still a scenario, I think, where step two might be. Hey, let's just. Let's just do the tear down or however you want to refer to it. But the market for Jaw is not exactly robust. Most likely given all the obvious things. The same things that might have soured the Grizzlies on him or made them concerned about him having him as their centerpiece for the.
- [62:26]
Logan Murdoch
I know one team that would love to have him and you know one team that would love to have your old stomping grounds buddy.
- [62:35]
Howard Beck
The team in my backyard.
- [62:38]
Logan Murdoch
No, no, no, no, no, no. The team that was in your backyard when you were in college, my friend.
- [62:43]
Howard Beck
Oh, well, yeah, but they would just be. They would love to have anybody at this point.
- [62:47]
Logan Murdoch
I'm just saying there's a market for the guy. There's a market for the guy.
- [62:50]
Howard Beck
There's a market for the guy. Among. There's only so many desperate teams in Sacramento is at the top of desperate. The desperate list. I would say there are teams that are in worse shape than Sacramento, but not teams that are more desperate than Sacramento. So let me be clear about that.
- [63:02]
Logan Murdoch
Never seen a team so desperate to be the AC in my life.
- [63:07]
Howard Beck
We don't need to go down a king's rabbit hole. I. I I, I don't, my guess is that they are not going to trade Jaw right now. And again, like, I don't think his market value is that high. I don't know how much you're getting back for Jaw given everything of the last couple of years. And there are so many teams that are already set at the position. If you're the Nets or the Wizards who are like, you know, the, the most recent tank rebuild types or Utah. Is that the guy you're going out to get to restart? Like, I don't think so.
- [63:40]
Logan Murdoch
He doesn't really fit with Miami. Like, you know, I don't think I.
- [63:43]
Howard Beck
Would, I could kind of see the Heat making a run at him, but I don't know. I, I, I would just.
- [63:50]
Logan Murdoch
You would have to make some drastic changes.
- [63:52]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [63:53]
Logan Murdoch
As a person to be good in Miami.
- [63:56]
Howard Beck
My, my, my guess at a read is this. The Grizzlies ain't hanging up if anybody called about ja. I don't know how many teams are calling about ja and, and I don't think the Grizzlies are necessarily actively trying to move him, but they certainly aren't hanging up. If somebody made an offer, do you.
- [64:12]
Logan Murdoch
Think it would take like maybe with job based on, we're saying like they might have to send one of those picks back with ja to, to sweeten the deal Bills that you think he's in that status yet of a player? No, it just with all the baggage and stuff, like, you know, I mean, we'll take a flyer on him, but you might need to give us a big too.
- [64:29]
Howard Beck
I don't, I don't think so. But I do think that you get less in return than you would normally for a player of his caliber based on baggage and injury history and likelihood of getting hurt again because he just plays this breakneck style and does not know how to slow down. So I don't know. I also think that when you look at the west right now, is this at least a slight reflection of where things are where we're all talking about how, how just the Thunder look like they're going to dominate for years to come because they're so young and they're so talented. And if you're a team like the Grizzlies where you're barely good enough to be like low playoff to play in and you're not catching the Thunder anytime soon, might as well take a step back to plan for the next two to three year, four year window instead of trying to chase the Thunder, like maybe that factors into this. Too, that would like, I think that's, that's a reasonable, realistic view of where you are with respect to the top of your conference.
- [65:28]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, I mean, they got a front row seat in how good the Thunder are this season, right? Didn't they? That first round, it wasn't even close. Yeah, I think that's one last question before I get out of here. What do you think about the discourse around picks? Right, like the first thing was, oh my God, Orlando sent four first round picks and this team didn't send this many picks and this team didn't send this many picks. Do you think we've gotten out of hand with that? I mean, I do think that, like it was a steep price for a guy like Desmond Bane, but also they had to get off of. They really wanted to get off kcp. And that takes a price too. Like, I, I think that yes, it is tough, but I think there's more nuance obviously than what the timeline gives us. But where have we gotten with like how we think about, at least from a NBA discourse perspective, how we talk about picks and how they get swapped.
- [66:23]
Howard Beck
It's fair to say that we're in a time when picks are really valued again, first round picks, there have been eras where they're thrown around like candy and given away and there are times where they are prized like gold. And we are back to the gold version right now because a handful of teams control so many picks. There are so many teams that have almost no picks in their control. And the new salary cap structure with the second apron makes controllable cheaper talent on rookie scale deals much more valuable. So when a team trades whatever, four or five picks, whatever, it ended up being the Bane hall. Like, I think it's fair to say, like, is it too much? But then you have to look at like the fine print of like which picks are going to convey or not and which picks were, you know, have conditions on them and which picks were Orlando's own. And if Orlando is as good as they think they're going to be, and as some people think they're going to be, well, the picks that they traded of their own, okay, those are going to be in the 20s anyway, right? So it's. You got to judge each one separately. And yeah, in this deal, I think at least one of those picks was just to take Kentavius, Caldwell Pope, who was a disappointment last year. So yeah, the discourse around picks can get a little bit overwrought for sure. I. My first reaction at a glance when that trade broke was That I thought it was too many. That's because, like, I think Desmond Bain's really, really good. But I don't, I don't, you know, I don't think he's good enough to merit that many picks. But when you start to sit down.
- [67:50]
Logan Murdoch
Is he better than Mikhail Bridges?
- [67:56]
Howard Beck
They're different. I don't know. He, he, he might be better than Mikhail Bridges. I think, I think he's, they've played different roles with their team, so it's a little bit hard. They're, they're a little different. We'll get back to that. But I, I, and I know, like, the comparison is there because the Knicks gave up a shit ton of picks and swaps to get Bridges from the Nets. Was it picks and swaps or just picks? Again, like, it's too early in the morning, but it was, it was a lot. Like, the Bridges price was super steep and the Bain prices, it, it, it's a lot. Here's what I would say about that trade and the reason why I had at least some concern because I think they still really need a point guard or a primary playmaker of some sort. It's not so much did you give up too much to get Bain, it's did you give up too much given that you still have other needs and now you have emptied out a lot of your asset cash to acquire somebody. It's the same thing with Bridges. It's not so much whether Bridges is an over, it's an overpay. It's. You've now also like spent so much that you don't have picks left to make other moves that you might need to make that you like you always have.
- [69:10]
Logan Murdoch
Some of the Knicks and Magic are in two different places though, too. Right? Like the Knicks are betting on like that they're going to be good for the next few years. Orlando's very much trying to be an ascent in the ascent. And you really, and I think in Orlando's case, you need those picks a lot more than New York at this, at the stages that they're in at this point, if that makes sense.
- [69:30]
Howard Beck
Yeah, I think all that factors into, and I think the smart way to look at these things is that every single one of these deals, whether it's, you know, pick laden or, or more player driven, however it's constructed, you do have to consider the context of the team, where they're at in their trajectory and what the factors are in getting the guy that they got. Because every, every transaction is its own thing. You know, we always do this thing, it's like, oh, the Go Bear trade set the market now. And now every, every star for the foreseeable future has to be traded for, you know, six first round picks or whatever. It doesn't really work like that. Every negotiation is kind of its own thing. Like, it's not that GMs won't reference or use those as a guideline or maybe use them even as a talking point in negotiations, but it's ultimately about the two teams that are in trade talks, what each one has for leverage in those talks with respect to the other team. And it's not so much about what other guys have gone for in, in, in recent transactions. So it's like the context of each. Everyone, every transaction matters for sure.
- [70:37]
Logan Murdoch
All right, man, I'm about to. I'm about to get the hell up out of here. I'm very tired. Want to go home. That was another edition of Real Ones. Back to back, loopy Real Ones from Howard Beck. This is just from a lack of sleep. Great game. It was great to see you, buddy.
- [70:55]
Howard Beck
You too.
- [70:57]
Logan Murdoch
Oh, man, we. Me and Howard had like, just a big hug afterwards, after the game. Like, man, I'll see you when I see you, buddy. But it was fun. All right, man. That's been another edition of Real Ones. Shout out to Victoria. Shout out to Cliff. Shout out to Howard motherfucking Beck. Quick programming note. Me and Tyler Parker will be reacting off of Game six. I'm sorry, I'm loopy, I'm tired, and we just did this in post. We have game six of the NBA Finals on Thursday night, so be on the lookout for that. That is a special edition of Real Ones. That should be a fun one. Either Tyler's going to be really, really happy or he's going to be really, really sad. Either way, it's going to be entertaining. So tap in with that Howard motherfucking Beck. I will see you next week with Raja Bell. Tap in all the shits. Talk to y' all soon. Bye.
- [71:48]
Howard Beck
Sam.