← The Ringer NBA Show
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- [00:01]
Starbucks Narrator
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- [00:22]
Logan Murdoch
Ugh.
- [00:22]
Starbucks Narrator
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- [00:39]
Logan Murdoch
Hey, still got my hoodie?
- [00:41]
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- [00:58]
Logan Murdoch
Foreign. What's poppin? Real ones. Logan Murdoch here. Roger Bell there. Howard Beck in New York. I don't. You're. You're not at the phone bank, are you? You're not. Where are you? What studio are you in?
- [01:14]
Howard Beck
I'm in the studio. That's not Amy Poehler's studio. I wasn't quite.
- [01:18]
Logan Murdoch
You got kicked out today.
- [01:20]
Howard Beck
Okay, it's the other one. I don't know what you're talking about. Phone banks and shit. I have no idea what you're saying.
- [01:27]
Logan Murdoch
All right, man, let's get to the sh. We're going to try to have a very constructive conversation about Jason Tatum's return without offending or talking a lot of. About another NBA legend. Is that fair? Can we. Can we get through a Jason Tatum conversation without that?
- [01:43]
Howard Beck
I don't even know which NBA legend you're talking about, man. No, seriously, like, there five different names potentially popped into my head, so.
- [01:51]
Logan Murdoch
Oh, okay. I don't know.
- [01:52]
Howard Beck
I will try not to offend any of them, though.
- [01:56]
Logan Murdoch
You guys didn't see the controversy in the chat? Never mind. Let's just get to it.
- [01:59]
Howard Beck
I can't see the chat.
- [02:01]
Raja Bell
I saw. I saw that. With that. You talking about the trainer? The trainer. Trainer. They're back and forth with the trainer and Carmelo.
- [02:06]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that one. That one.
- [02:08]
Raja Bell
Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. I don't know. I got mixed emotions. I didn't think. I mean, a former player can't,
- [02:20]
Howard Beck
like,
- [02:20]
Raja Bell
of Carmelo's stature give it vice to Jason Tatum without it. Without it being offensive to his trainer. Like, is that. That's the world we're living in? Like someone like that is the world
- [02:32]
Logan Murdoch
that we're living in.
- [02:33]
Raja Bell
Carmelo won a championship as I believe, a freshman at Syracuse. He was on multiple gold medal teams and he can't. One of the best scorers maybe ever. He can't give advice to a young fellow like Jason Tatum without his trainer hopping in. I don't know either. I don't know the trainer, so I don't have any beef. But like, that's, that's kind of crazy that he was. I, I saw it too. Like he said something like, to the effect of imagine Mello giving JT advice on winning or something like that. It was something like that, right?
- [03:07]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, that was paraphrasing, but yes, that's exactly what it was said. Yes.
- [03:11]
Raja Bell
Yeah, I found that, I found that to be kind of crazy.
- [03:14]
Logan Murdoch
It's the world we live in, Raja, you know?
- [03:17]
Raja Bell
Yeah. No disrespect to him, but like that, that's crazy.
- [03:20]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. So. Six time all star Jason Tatum is expected to make his season debut tonight. Whenever you guys listen to this podcast, this Friday night against the Dallas Mavericks, just 10 months after tearing his right Achilles in the second round against the New York Knicks, he will join a Celtics team that is number two in a wide open Eastern Conference. With the a little under a month left in the season, there's so many. Like, I feel like we have been kind of double dutching our way into this conversation because we didn't have a confirmation either way if he was coming back. But now that we have it, I'll start with Raja and then go to H back. How do we feel about this? It's here. He's coming back on a title contending team somehow and he has to figure out his role within a new confines. How do we feel about this, Raja Bell?
- [04:14]
Raja Bell
Yeah, I've never wavered on this. I don't think the reward is worth, worth the risk. I just, I don't. I know there have been advancements in, you know, medical technology and it shortens the length of rehab for people on some of these injuries in a way that, that's pretty remarkable. Do you guys remember when, when Kyrie went down last year and you guys were like, he won't play next year. And I was saying that there was a case that he could potentially come back with the rehab schedule for an acl. Do you remember that? And we kind of lightweight, argued about that fake weight.
- [04:51]
Logan Murdoch
Yep, I remember that.
- [04:53]
Raja Bell
This is even wilder. Coming off of the Achilles on this timeline is unprecedented. And look, I hope the best. Um, I'm sure they've They've, you know, vetted this and done their due diligence, and everyone there feels like the risk is that minimal, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. I just really hope it plays out like that. I don't have any. I don't have any worries necessarily about him fitting in or what his role needs to be. You know, I think he's played enough basketball there. I think he's a good enough player to figure out how he fits with what they're doing now. I'm not super concerned with that. I. I'm more concerned with a young player that's already on the trajectory to be, you know, phenomenal having that derailed because you rushed something back that typically takes a little bit longer to come back from. And I hope. I hope it doesn't play out like that, and that's my concern. But I've never wavered on the fact that I don't think the reward, the possible reward here, you're not beating one of those teams out of the Western Conference, in my opinion, unless Jayson Tatum is Jayson Tatum from pre injury, which you are not going to be. Dude. Like, do we have any. Do we have any evidence of anyone coming back from an injury like this on the regular timetable and looking exactly like they look before the injury?
- [06:13]
Logan Murdoch
No, we don't.
- [06:14]
Raja Bell
No, you don't. You don't. And so for someone coming back, even in a more condensed period of time, logically, I would think he doesn't hit his stride for a while. And in that world, I don't think you beat either one of those teams that's coming out, any of the teams coming out of the Western Conference. So again, for me, personally, reward not worth the risk.
- [06:38]
Howard Beck
So I've said this, and I think I've said it with you guys. I've definitely said it on Zack's pot a couple weeks back. And elsewhere, we're in a time where it's not just that sports science and training and everything else have advanced. I do believe that, and I say this understanding. There are always some misgivings from athletes about medical staffs that are employed by the team. Raja, like, I get this. I do not think in the year 2026, the Boston Celtics, their front office, ownership, medical staff, trainers, Tatum himself, his personal trainer, everybody who works with him, they're not letting him on the court. If there's any substantial risk beyond the normal, there's a risk of him not being himself. In fact, there's an almost certainty that he's not the Jayson Tatum we're used to seeing, but that's, I think, the psychological hurdle that he probably had to get over in deciding to come back. Now that and again, I've referenced Derrick Rose from back in the day when he tore his acl. He took a long time to come back and was criticized for doing so. But as I recall and understood it at the time, Derrick Rose didn't want to be back until he could be Derrick Rose. And Jayson Tatum, I think to his credit is making a concession in this. He could wait another six months and no one would blink an eye and come back ready to start next season a lot closer to the Jayson Tatum that he's used to being. And again, probably very little chance of being. He's going to be some percentage of himself but. But not fully at the old level. I credit him for that because you have to swallow a lot of pride and ego to even do that. I mean, he said in his documentary that's been airing, I think on Peacock, something to the effect of like, I'm not coming back to be a role player. But it's kind of what he has to be, at least compared to what he's normally been. He's been a top five player in this league. He has been the lead on that Celtics team. With all due respect to Jaylen Brown, it's been, you know, Tatum 1A, Brown 1B. He's going to come back to a team that is Brown one A and where because Tatum can't be fully himself yet, he's probably not going to have the same level of explosiveness and everything that we're used to seeing. He almost has to be more of it. Now that's not a role player. Right. He's not Peyton Pritchard. He's not Derek White. He's going to be co star, but it's going to be a little bit of a reversal here. But they've done that before. Like they did it in winning the finals with Jaylen Brown. Was, was the MVP.
- [09:03]
Raja Bell
Sure. So he's been 1B. He's been 1B plenty of times. Like that's.
- [09:06]
Logan Murdoch
Sure.
- [09:07]
Raja Bell
Yeah.
- [09:08]
Howard Beck
Any, any given night, any given playoff series. Right, Raja? Those guys have the ability to kind of toggle and defer to each other when necessary, play off of each other. Like I have no concerns whatsoever about the ego of it all or the whose team is it of it all. Like, I think, I think all that's silly. I think you're right in flagging like the physical part of this, the well being of Jason Tatum first. But again, I do not think anybody associated with the Celtics would be giving the green light to do this if they thought there was any undue risk to him. And then let me just make a quick, just observation about the coming back. And you know, as you said, like, I think we all expect, like, the Western Conference winner is the NBA champion. Right. We could be wrong on that, though. We're wrong plenty on our prognosticating in this world. But yeah, it's probably the, you know, whatever Thunder, Spurs, Nuggets, take your pick, are going to eventually win the title against whoever comes out of the East. But, man, windows are short in this league and they're shorter than ever in this era. And so where I once would have said, you know what, Take your time, you and Jalen Brown are both in your primes, you don't need to rush it back, and he doesn't. But next year's not guaranteed. Two years after that's not guaranteed. And your, your team is. Has the fourth best record in the entire league right now without you, that suggests to me that they've got a shot to at least make the finals and maybe even win another championship. And I'm kind of in the mode now of, like, fucking seize the day, man. Seize the day because. Because there are. There are no guaranteed tomorrows in the NBA. In this age of parody, in this age of guys getting traded and leaving teams, in this age of, you know, somebody else's injury possibly sinking, you go for it. It's right in front of you. Go for it.
- [10:57]
Logan Murdoch
I was, I feel you. I understand what you're saying in this day and age, Howard, but it's always been a level of. It needs to be right now. And there's no promise of tomorrow in the NBA and by extension, life. Right. I think with this, the more and more I think about this Jason Tatum thing, I feel like there is a level of selfishness in this return and what he is trying to, to accomplish. And I think, and I'm not saying it is necessarily a diss, because I think you need a level of that to play and at his level and in this league. Right. But to come in March, because I was thinking about, like, other players that have come after significant injuries this late in the season of his stature, and we do have a, an example of that, and that's Kawhi Leonard last year, but he came in January, right? He came back from his injury around that time. And the things that are required of a Jayson Tatum, even if he's going to be a number two is a. Is so much to ask on March 6, going into a playoff run, you're talking about not only getting into regular season form, but late regular season form. And then you're talking about trying to get your win for playoff form and be expected to test that Achilles on a playoff stage where so many guys are playing at a crazy level that you haven't even gotten to yet. When I think that he is not putting himself, whether he's cleared or not, I don't think he, and by extension the Boston Celtics are putting themselves in a great chance to win for the postseason at this point and make that Finals run that you speak of that they need to make, because they are going to have to insert a piece like Jason Tatum, who is trying to figure himself out on the fly. And while he does that, there's going to be different, there's going to be disruptions as he tries to find himself offensively. It's going to mess up the mojo. And I wouldn't be surprised, honestly, if the Boston Celtics and I, and I hope I'm wrong because they've had a great season and I think Jalen Brown has done a great job. But I think inserting a piece of the stature of Jason Tatum could really derail what they have going on right now. And we could see a exit earlier than expected because of this, because they're trying to constantly have to manage the situation when they, when they could have just put this, you know, kick the can down the road, have a full training camp, which they haven't had. You're not going to have practice time around this time to kind of gel in this new version. In a perfect world. Yeah, he is a role player and he's a number two, but even a ramp up to be a number two Raja is a lot to ask for a guy coming off of 10 after 10 months of tearing his Achilles. That's a lot to ask. It's a lot to ask for anyone. But for someone to have that type of offensive and defensive responsibility that he earned at this point in his career.
- [13:57]
Raja Bell
Yeah, let me, let me touch on a couple of things. One, yeah, there could be. I kind of, I'm kind of in between the two of you guys in terms of what the team would look like, there's definitely a possibility that reinserting him into that chemistry causes some disruption. I tend to believe that, you know, because of what he's represented to that team in the past and the type of players and the style that they're playing right now that they can figure that out quick enough if he's playing well, for it not to be the reason why they necessarily lose, not the chemistry of it all. Maybe just because they're not good enough. Right. Like, I don't think he upsets the chemistry that much. I would ask you to look at, like, football players when they hold out of camp, right? Guys that hold out of entire camps and the injury rate that, the sustained injury rate that they have when they come back, they haven't played and trained and had enough time to get their body in football shape, while basketball is not football. I mean, there's a level of shape that you have to be in to protect not just that Achilles, but the other tendons, ligaments, joints in your body when you come back from any injury. Let's say it is quantifiable that you are moving at 100% capacity on that Achilles. Like, let's say that there's some machine they can strap him to and be like 100% pliability on the Achilles, 100% strength in the calf, 100% dorsiflexion in the ankle. Like, all of those things go into your gate and whether or not you can run and biomechanically move the way you've done for your life, right? So let's say that none of that's going to be off, which, because if any of it's fractionally off, you're putting stressors in other places, right? And thus enhancing the risk of injury there. But let's say again, all of that is normal. Let's get to the trust of it. You've got 100% firing in that calf, that Achilles, everything's looking good and you just don't trust it. So, like, we're out there and you're limping in a way that the metrics don't suggest you should be limping, or you're tentative in a way that the metrics don't suggest you should be tentative because it's in your mind. That's a hard thing to come back from. Well, then, guess what? You're becoming more susceptible to in other areas. More load than they're used to carrying more impact than they're used to absorbing, thus increasing the chance for other injuries. Look, again, I hope I'm wrong. All of that is factual. So. So, like again, to me, if we're sitting here agreeing that for the most part we believe the winner of this is going to be in the Western Conference, I don't think the possible reward for them is worth the risk of that, and I hope I'm wrong, because, like, sustaining any type of secondary catastrophic injury because of that one and having to then rehab again, that's career derailing. Possibly.
- [16:50]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah.
- [16:51]
Howard Beck
I mean, Raja, all fair. Completely. And I respect. Like, listen, you're coming at this through the lens of a pro athlete who has to, like, manage all of that risk and the psychology of it all, the career of it all. And I see all that. I just, again, I do not think that Tatum or anyone around him is greenlighting this unless they're sure of all that. And this is not like, an NFL power.
- [17:19]
Raja Bell
Sorry.
- [17:19]
Howard Beck
He's been training for, like.
- [17:21]
Raja Bell
Keep your thought, though. Yeah, keep your thought. You can't be sure of it is my point.
- [17:26]
Howard Beck
There are certain life.
- [17:27]
Raja Bell
Yeah, you can think you're sure of it because of what you've seen in training, but, man, when live bullets start flying and live pace takes over and. And you're in practice, I could protect an injury every single day. I go in there. Howard on the way back from a torn calf. I can protect it in a way, because this is practice. It doesn't mean as much in his game. But if I have to be spontaneous in any way, and I haven't been 100% true with myself in that space, I'm in trouble. And that's all I'm saying is, like, yeah, I. I believe his team believes everything is great, but there's just. You just can't know that until you're out there in real shit.
- [18:04]
Howard Beck
I mean, he had surgery the next morning, which was fortuitous in the sense that this happened at Madison Square Garden in New York, you know, a. A mile or less than that from Hospital for Special Surgery. He was there the next day. Dr. Martin O', Malley, who's done a lot of these, did the surgery, and they. And he has said there was quotes that o' Malley has given about how being able to do it immediately has a huge benefit to your timeline and your healing and all that. So this isn't the usual one. We can't probably compare it to any Achilles of the past. And, you know, whether they're using. You know, like, we've all read the stories at P3 where they've got those, like, the plates where you can measure your explosiveness and all that stuff. Like, I am sure the Celtics have used every bit of technology available to them at their facility and wherever else around the country that they've wanted to send him to make sure that everything is firing. Right. That to your point, Raja? That he's not over favoring anything, that he's not putting himself in a position. And, you know, he's had some five on five for the last couple of weeks. And I think during that time, I'm sure every eyeball on him from the training staff to the coaching staff to the front office is looking for, hey, you know, is he moving right? You know, again, we've got the ability now with tracking cameras and everything else to see everything, every last like microscopic detail of a way, of the way a guy is moving. And if there's any deviation from his norm, they can flag that and say, you know what? Nope, there's hesitation or, nope, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're off by a little bit. And that's going to put your ankle at risk or your knee or your hips. I just, maybe I have an undue amount of faith in all this, Raja, in the technology and the sophistication of the modern professional franchise and everything they've got available to them. Again, I just don't think they're letting him come back. And I think that if they see any warning signs, maybe they didn't see him in the last couple of weeks of 5 on 5, but if they see those warning signs in tonight's game or in a couple of days, maybe they pull the plug. Maybe they decide it's not worth it. Maybe Tatum himself says, you know what? It's just not feeling right. But if you feel right right now, well enough to say it's time, I'm, I'm good. And I, and I can see a pathway for us to the Finals. I mean, that's, you know, that's what you're out there for. Right? And I just, I'm. I. And I'll admit this, too, there's a part of me that just wants to see this happen. Just from the pure standpoint of this is absolutely.
- [20:40]
Raja Bell
No one does this.
- [20:41]
Howard Beck
No one does. It's not just Achilles. It's not even just Achilles. There's the only analogy we really have of the last, like 30 years is like Michael Jordan coming out of his, his first retirement from playing baseball and saying, I'm coming back with like, you know, 15 games to go or whatever. But that's not even this. This is one of the top five players in the NBA coming back to a team that everyone in the world thought was taking a gap year to a team that shed four of its key rotation guys without him, that despite everything, is somehow in a position to make a Finals Run even without him. And he's coming back from one of the toughest injuries in sports. It's an incredible story, and I. I
- [21:22]
Logan Murdoch
literally can't imagine what's going through.
- [21:24]
Howard Beck
Can't wait to see what happens.
- [21:25]
Raja Bell
How long after he tore his Achilles? And I always, like, I hate even talking about it. It's such a crazy. It's why I won't. It's why when people ask me to go out and shoot or play pickup, I'm like, I'm absolutely not, dude. I am not. Like, I. That injury scares the hell out of me. How long after he sustained it did Halle sustain it? It's a couple weeks.
- [21:46]
Logan Murdoch
About a month. It was about a month.
- [21:47]
Howard Beck
Maybe a month. Yeah.
- [21:49]
Raja Bell
Yeah. So, I mean, look, again, not everyone heals the same way, but I'd be fascinated to get a microphone in front of Halle and their team and. And. And ask them, like, yo, where's he in his rehab? Like, if you guys were in the mix, could he play in three weeks?
- [22:02]
Howard Beck
I think he actually started contact, didn't he? Or started five on five, something like that.
- [22:06]
Raja Bell
I don't know. Like, that. That'd be.
- [22:08]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah.
- [22:09]
Howard Beck
I mean, also, you know, as we all say all the time, like, every. Every ACL is different. Every Achilles is different. Every. Every injury, every guy, right? So it.
- [22:18]
Logan Murdoch
It.
- [22:18]
Howard Beck
I don't know if we should be comparing, but it's a fair point. Like, Halliburton's even younger than Tatum, and. But he did. He did. He did tear it a month later, too, so.
- [22:31]
Raja Bell
No, that's what I. That's why I said in a month. Right. Or in three weeks, whatever the. Whatever the time is. And look, all that can be right. And I just say again, man, like, force plates. I mean, I've been even since I left the Cavs, and I was blown away at the time, being with the Cavs, at how far sports science had come from when I played, which was, like, just five years prior to that. But traveling around with my boys and being privy to, like, what they have in college locker rooms now to really, you know, quantify your imbalances and try to figure out how to make you symmetrical, and it's so much more advanced than it was when I was with the Cavs. It's incredible. So. So you're right on all of that, Howard. What. What you can't quantify again, I get on that force plate, you tell me to explode, that registers even. Even weight distribution, even power output, all of that, but it can't measure my brain, so it can't measure. Like when I come down the lane the first time and go to take off and I'm in the air and something in my head says hey, be careful when you land and what that does. And that's the space that I'm worried for him in. And I again, I mean this. I hope to God I'm wrong or I hope that you're right in that if they see any look, any inkling of Yodis Dunfield just shut him down.
- [23:51]
Howard Beck
Isn't that every injury though, Raja? Like I remember covering when so Kevin Durant remember three foot surgeries in 18 months. And we all wondered if Kevin Durant even that time forget the Achilles years later, but when he was still in Oklahoma. Three foot surgeries in 18 months for a guy who's a virtual seven footer. The history of NBA players who are around that height with foot problems and the careers just being never the same or cutting short. And I remember going out to do a feature on Kevin Durant in Oklahoma that year. It was in like 2015. And just like the gas. Not the gas, the.
- [24:23]
Logan Murdoch
This.
- [24:23]
Howard Beck
This weird feeling, this weird buzz in the arena as Kevin Durant came out for his first preseason game after the 18 months or whatever he'd been out or two years been a long stretch. And, and I think that was like it's a similar version of it. Right? Like is he going to look the same? Is he going to jump the same? And he probably everybody when you're coming back from any serious injury, that's the first thing you're thinking, right.
- [24:44]
Logan Murdoch
Is.
- [24:44]
Howard Beck
Or trying not to think about is the land or the first explosion, whatever.
- [24:50]
Raja Bell
And so I mean any low, any lower body injury. Yes, but, but, but, but like the difference is every other injury that I can remember like this people have erred on the side of caution because of that reason. Like, and I'm not saying they weren't cautious but like they're certainly. I don't, you know, like this is the quickest we've ever seen someone come back from that. So like that's all I have to go on.
- [25:14]
Howard Beck
You're big others.
- [25:15]
Logan Murdoch
No, there's been others.
- [25:16]
Raja Bell
If Kobe came back this quickly.
- [25:17]
Howard Beck
Ten months. Yeah. Wes. Wes Matthews and some others. Yeah.
- [25:20]
Raja Bell
Okay.
- [25:21]
Logan Murdoch
Torn in March and came back in opening night.
- [25:24]
Raja Bell
That makes me, that makes me feel good.
- [25:26]
Logan Murdoch
But he was also. But the difference between. They're between Tatum and Wes. Wesley Matthews is the roles on the team in the world.
- [25:34]
Raja Bell
No, neither one, neither one of them looked good.
- [25:37]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. And Kobe came back. He tore is in April Came back December of that, of that year and you know, almost 34.
- [25:45]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [25:45]
Logan Murdoch
At that time and you know, he didn't play well to start either and he rushed all the way back. I, I, I'm with you Raja. I, I, I want to get to another point. First of all, a little clarification.
- [25:56]
Raja Bell
That does make me feel better though. Sorry, like I didn't know those I, you know, but that makes me feel a little better.
- [26:00]
Howard Beck
Can I just actually quick data point on, on this Logan, before we lose this thread. This is from instreetclothes.com Jeff Stott's trainer who documents, catalogs all this stuff and does a great job with all this. The average time missed for qualified NBA cases for this, meaning achilles, is roughly 10 months. So it like this is about the norm because he's saying that's the average time missed. So some have gone longer, some have gone obviously not that many have gone shorter, but he's saying the average time missed is roughly 10.
- [26:32]
Logan Murdoch
And I think the other thing that we could push onto that like the ones the Achilles of that we know is still unprecedented because he's coming back in March. March. Right. Like Kobe came back in December. If he was Tatum's age, that would be a little bit more palatable. But he's coming with a month left in the season. That's just, that's as a going out, going into the Achilles injury, a number one option, maybe a number two option going into a playoff push like that is pretty unprecedented.
- [27:00]
Howard Beck
But he, he has the luxury too though, of Jaylen Brown being care capable of being the number one. So whereas Kobe comes back or some other guys come back and it's, you know, if I'm not myself, my team can't even function. Tatum has the luxury. Now this, and this is why all the stuff about, you know, people reading into the whose team is it and all that stuff is stupid. Tatum has the luxury of being able to lean on Jaylen Brown, knowing that Jaylen Brown is fully capable of being a number one because they've done it before at times and because Jaylen Brown's been doing it all season. And so Tatum doesn't have to force the issue. He can ease into this if he needs to and he can afford to be. He could be their third leading scorer if necessary after Derek White or Peyton Pritchard. Like it. It's, I think that that is actually part of the benefit of the context in which he's coming back.
- [27:49]
Logan Murdoch
That's true, but that's, it's easier to say that, and I would like to see that on, on film before I can believe it to be the case.
- [27:56]
Howard Beck
We'll see in a few hours.
- [27:57]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. But no, I. That's the thing that I'm really looking forward to. First of all, clarification. Tyrese Halliburton started playing four on four games with interns about a month ago. He said that on the Mind the game podcast with LeBron James, but he still said that there's going to be some time before he's back to his old self. But this is another thing we've talked about the decision. The decision has already been made with Tatum. One thing I want to get Roger's perspective on, though, is what is the best path forward for this team? How do they integrate this person into the fold and what is the best case scenario for this happening? Injury aside, more just talking about, like, his role into this team at this given moment, how did. What is the best case scenario for the next, next month or so before we get into the postseason?
- [28:49]
Raja Bell
I mean, the best case scenario would be that, that, you know, he is way closer to the version of himself that he was when he, when he was injured than, than we expect him to be. And you just kind of fall back into that 1A, 1B kind of seamless transition that they, that they had been playing with when they were at their peak. You know, worst case scenario would be that he comes back, he's not that version of himself and he's not willing to be a role player. You know, if, if that is in fact where he is in his recovery and his skill set and ability to do things around the court suggest, you know, that that's the way he needs to fit into this current roster. You know, watching them play, Derrick White's obviously taken on a much larger role in terms of having the ball in his hands and playmaking. Peyton Pritchard has as well. And, you know, if Jayson Tatum is at a level where clearly everyone understands giving him the ball in those situations is better for us, then give it to him. But if he's not at that, then it becomes whether or not he's willing to play off of them in a way that he's really never had to. They played off of him and only time will tell. Like, we'll have to watch and see what he looks like. But I think a lot of it is going to hinge and be predicated on how he looks and how he is going about reintegrating himself into that lineup. Like I've heard the debate about, you Know, hey, like, he's the star. He goes in there and he does this, or, you know, he should go in. And I always take the approach of when you're coming back into a situation like that, feeling your way around that. Right. And it's a delicate balance between being true to yourself and I'm a very, very good player. If I'm Jayson Tatum, I've had huge success at this level. Being true to yourself, but also acknowledging what's being done in your absence and honoring that in a way that shows everyone else how much you respect them and what they've done in your absence, and then finding that. That. That balance to where we can kind of work towards. Maybe it's not tonight or tomorrow night or even a week from now, but as. As we all start to, like, you know, develop this. This trust again, and you start looking better, and we understand who you are as a player, but you haven't tried to, like, force this on us. Two weeks from now, we're looking really good together.
- [31:25]
Logan Murdoch
That's. That's the other thing. It's a timeline, Raja. Right? Like, geez, it's a month left, right?
- [31:31]
Raja Bell
Like, oh, yeah.
- [31:31]
Logan Murdoch
That means you got to hit on all cylinders with this recovery. It's just really.
- [31:36]
Raja Bell
Yeah, you got to get it right.
- [31:37]
Logan Murdoch
You have to get it right. I mean, they're about a game and a half up on New York for the second place and the Eastern Conference. Let me take a look at their schedule really quickly because Dallas is a tough team. They're gonna be at Cleveland, at San Antonio, at Oklahoma City. That's a tough stress to come back, you know, like, and figure yourself out. That's. That's a. Because Dallas is a tough team to play, right? Like, they. They're not. Are they good necessarily, are they? I mean, they're gonna play hard.
- [32:11]
Howard Beck
I'm not. I don't. I don't think the Celtics have to worry about Dallas. The.
- [32:13]
Logan Murdoch
The.
- [32:14]
Howard Beck
The. The next three after that.
- [32:15]
Logan Murdoch
I'm gonna be real. They sh. Based on the team that we're gonna talk about next, they should be paying attention to teams that they. That are beneath them, that they feel that are beneath them.
- [32:24]
Howard Beck
And, yeah, that's a bad comparison, and we'll get to it, but.
- [32:28]
Logan Murdoch
Okay. Anyways.
- [32:37]
Raja Bell
I would say this, though. I would say this.
- [32:38]
Logan Murdoch
I don't think it'd be a tough two weeks.
- [32:40]
Raja Bell
Can I say this about. Can I say this about.
- [32:42]
Howard Beck
Made Logan really mad?
- [32:44]
Raja Bell
I know, but they're hurt people. Hurt people. The Dallas of it all. While they're not good. I agree with you, Logan. They play really hard. And in a weird way, if this makes sense, as good as the Celtics are, a lot of what they do is based on playing really, really hard. Um, so, like, if you come up against someone who's going to match your playing hardedness, right, if that's even like, whatever. You just can't count those. Those chickens before they're hatched is what I'm saying.
- [33:14]
Logan Murdoch
Right?
- [33:14]
Raja Bell
Because, like, that's not like a uber talented, hey, we're just going to beat you roster. That's a, hey, we come in here and outwork you roster. So if you get somebody who's willing to work with you that night, like, who knows?
- [33:26]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, and also, according to take it on the Celtics at the seventh hardest record down the stretch. I mean, it's. It's going to be a tough thing. And like, also, you know, coming back from an injury and having to play any type of team is going to be hard. And I. Let's just put a pin on this. I hope for the best, and I think everyone on this panel hopes for the best with Tatum. Let's take a quick break and let's talk about Raj's favorite team on the other side. Okay. And we are back. We are going to talk about the closest comparison to the Dallas Mavericks this season. The Charlotte Hornets.
- [34:04]
Howard Beck
That is such an insult. We're gonna. We're teeing up the whole thing.
- [34:08]
Logan Murdoch
Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Relax, relax. It was a joke. It was called a callback. Jesus. Anyways, Charlotte is 32 and 31. They have a 16.3record since January 22, 22 and 11record since Christmas. The lineup of Lamelo Ball, Brandon Miller. The starting line. Excuse me. Of Lamelo Ball, Brandon Miller. Con canipple. I didn't want to mess up his name. Musa and Miles Bridges. Yes, sir. Are. They have a 20 and 2 record as a starting lineup. Lineup boasts a plus, 69 as a plus minus. They were our punchline. We looked at them as a punchline for the last few years, but as we've looked at them as a punchline, they've actually made some pretty good moves. Right. They have a new ownership, relatively new ownership. Charles Lee was tasked with turning this team around. Didn't look like it last year. Like, it seemed like the same old Hornets. And at the top of this year, they were the punchline of me and Raja. Specifically Lamelo Ball. But they have all played really well. I watched Lamelo was.
- [35:20]
Raja Bell
Well, you and Howard.
- [35:23]
Logan Murdoch
Fair.
- [35:24]
Raja Bell
I always Give Lamelo. I've been here defending Lamelo.
- [35:28]
Howard Beck
I tried. I. I tried praising Lamelo early in the season when he got off to a really nice start and Logan shot me down. So let me just.
- [35:34]
Logan Murdoch
Let's just. I was. For the record, the last time we
- [35:37]
Howard Beck
discussed him, I was trying to praise him.
- [35:39]
Logan Murdoch
All right. Yeah. And that when. That was around the time when they were 4 and 15 to start the 4. No, no, no.
- [35:45]
Howard Beck
This was like, two, three weeks into the season. Shut up.
- [35:47]
Logan Murdoch
Okay. All right. Anyways, the question is. So I got. We watched him against Boston. That's what we referenced in the previous segment. Watching them. They have shooting, they have depth, they have a great young core, so it seems. I'll ask Roger this because, you know, he's been a Charlotte stand for a while now. What's the ceiling for this?
- [36:10]
Howard Beck
Former Hornets great Raja.
- [36:12]
Logan Murdoch
No, no, he was not a former. He was not a Hornets great. He was a Bobcats great Bobcat. Sorry, Former Bobcat.
- [36:20]
Raja Bell
I got. Yeah, no, they were. I mean, they were.
- [36:22]
Logan Murdoch
What.
- [36:23]
Raja Bell
What was the award I gave? Was it my. My league pass team? My league pass team.
- [36:28]
Logan Murdoch
You did? Yes, sir.
- [36:29]
Raja Bell
To watch. And I. The. The.
- [36:33]
Howard Beck
The.
- [36:33]
Raja Bell
Re. The reason why. And you could see it, like, when they played the Celtics was mostly offensively, but interestingly enough, like, you know, they're not a great defensive team, but over the last, like, maybe three games or so, they are one of the better defensive teams in the league. So I think they're. They're trending, like, their success and the offense has kind of carried them in a way that is now creeped over to the defensive side of the ball at times, which. Which, you know, obviously, you know, it's common sense, if you can get both of those working together, you've got some real opportunity to win games. What. What I like about them, what's entertaining to me about them, is, first of all, I would just say, again, for everything that Lamelo doesn't get credit for, he can do things with a basketball that. That are wildly entertaining. Like, they're. They're. There's just a level of showmanship to his game now. He gets a lot of shit for that, and it hasn't always produced, by
- [37:28]
Logan Murdoch
the way, in that Boston game, Roger, he was so out of pocket in a good way. Did you see the shots he was making on Jalen Brown? Yeah.
- [37:34]
Raja Bell
Crazy.
- [37:34]
Logan Murdoch
And then.
- [37:35]
Raja Bell
And then. And then, like, shooting his threes at the crowd.
- [37:38]
Logan Murdoch
Yes.
- [37:39]
Raja Bell
Yeah.
- [37:39]
Logan Murdoch
He's a showman.
- [37:41]
Raja Bell
He is a showman. And. And. And, like, you know, there's Some of that to it, right? So that's fun to watch, but, like, what's. What's really fun to watch for me is that the way they move on the offensive end of the floor. They. They. You wouldn't watch them and necessarily say, man, they push the hell out of the pace. Like, they're flying up and down the court. But once they get into the front court, they play with real pace. The ball is moving, people are moving, they're throwing that thing. And they're in more probably zoom actions. I'd love to see, like, who runs the most zoom actions in the NBA. They're really difficult to guard. When you have shooters like Con Canipple and Lamelo coming off of those things on that handoff, what do you do? You go under, they stop and pop, you chase it. Now they're downhill in the paint. Like, they just don't stand, you know, they're isolation opportunities for those guys, for sure, like every NBA team has. But they move a lot. It. It's not the. The. The warriors of old, but it's a version of that in the way they kind of move and fly around and then they hit. You know, it's diabate a lot of times where they'll hit him as the hub, and now they're just high splitting off of him. They're cutting, they're swinging it, and that's for me to watch. Yeah, man.
- [38:56]
Logan Murdoch
Right?
- [38:56]
Howard Beck
Yeah, dude.
- [38:57]
Raja Bell
The gut cuts, like, there's just so much cool stuff going on in their offense and movement that when you put really skilled players out there that can make shots and. And are playmakers, it becomes fun for someone like me to watch. So, like, that's. That. That's why they are fun for me to watch. And quite frankly, you know, that's what makes them hard for people to guard at times. When you are. When you are methodical with. With what you do offensively, defensively. I can rely on that scout that I got this morning from my assistant coach because he told me, when you guys do this, this is what I'm supposed to do to counter that, and my defensive help is going to do this. And so we've got you squared up, but, you know, that's provided you're moving at a pace that, like, my brain can keep up with. When they're flying around unpredictably, just throwing the ball to the big splitting and running off of a zoom, I mean, you've got to get that right every time and in the blink of an eye. And a lot of times people are Going to mess it up. And so it becomes really difficult to guard when you've got guys that make shots the way they do and can create the way they do.
- [40:02]
Logan Murdoch
I agree with you. I want to. Before I get to Howard, I just. I do want to. And I have been a Lamelo, you know, hater. Is hater the word Roger Howard? I don't know if Haters a little bit. A realist. A realist about what he's.
- [40:19]
Raja Bell
Here's my. Here's my Look.
- [40:20]
Logan Murdoch
Sorry.
- [40:20]
Raja Bell
No, but this is always my thing with Lamelo. This is always my thing with Lamelo because I remember arguing with Howard about it a year ago, and I was. You're not a hater. But what no one really ever was willing to do for Lamelo was acknowledge what he could do. All I ever heard about Lamelo was what he couldn't do. And all I wanted to say was, like, and maybe you didn't do it to the degree Howard. Like, maybe that's unfair. I don't remember verbatim the argument, but, like, a lot of people fall into, like, just beating him up for what he couldn't do. And. And that was my only pushback on it. Like, I'd acknowledge there's some. There's some struggles, right? Like, with.
- [40:52]
Logan Murdoch
He also was playing Charlotte, right? Which is like, the ult before this new ownership group was not a. You know, it wasn't very successful, you know.
- [41:01]
Raja Bell
No, it wasn't a health. It wasn't the healthiest.
- [41:03]
Logan Murdoch
It wasn't the healthiest organization. Let's. We could just go ahead.
- [41:07]
Howard Beck
Intelligent management, as David Stern once said of a different franchise in my backyard, right.
- [41:13]
Logan Murdoch
It wasn't a lot. Right? And then when you have. When you have a player like Lamelo, and I'm not even just saying this. I'm not even talking about antics or anything. I'm just talking about sheer talent of what he is. You know, I lived in California and watched him kind of blossom into the player that he is, right? Throughout his journey, he's had one of the most. The weirdest journeys and the most confounding journeys a lot to this league. And I have not seen a coach or an organization that is really invested in him for. In this type of way for his whole career. And what I mean by that is he is one of the most talented, pure basketball players I think I've ever seen in this modern era, and I truly believe that. But there wasn't a coach that's saying, hey, you need to do, you know, the little things to make you a good basketball player. Watching him against Boston was really a breath of fresh air to see him doing those back screens and then you get to see, you know, him doing the incredible shot making that he can do. And then what I do love about this Charlotte team is that they are doing the little things offensively to get great shots and to do, to help the helper and to do all those things that you speak of, Raja, but they're also still throwing these lobs. They still laugh out of your face. They're still doing everything. You know who else did that? Golden State. You know, they tapped in on all of the fundamental type things and then they had the excitement and so. And that leads back to Lamelo, which I love the on court maturity that I have seen from him. And he said some things before this season about like, how much he has worked this offseason and tried to mature and things like that. Now there are some other stuff that are still happening off the floor, but I think on the court, he has really matured in a way that is really a breath of fresh air to see. And then you see that all the way down the line and you see Brandon Miller, who, what a poster he put on in Boston, right. And his maturation as a basketball player. And you have three guys in Caniple, Lamelo and Brandon Miller who can get their own shot, which is really hard to find in this NBA, Right. And you, you only usually have one, at most two. And so when I see the ceiling for this team, Howard, I see a team that if they do the right things and continue to do the right things, it's kind of on one hand, I'm kind of like, this is, you know, shaky ground. But on the other hand, if they continue to do these things, they can't be a player with this west, this, this new Eastern Conference that's kind of coming into the fold. Like, I see a team like Detroit and I'd be scared as hell to play against a team like Charlotte in the first round. I think they're going to push him.
- [43:52]
Howard Beck
I think so too. And I think we're actually. We're collectively sleeping on just how good the Hornets are right now because they're being treated as like, oh, this fun little story. They just climbed above.500. They're kind of respectable for the first time in a long time. They've been a really dysfunctional franchise for a long time over. All of which is true, but none of which is actually an accurate portrayal of where they are right now. So real quick, they're a game over.500, ninth in the east. So you go like, eh, okay, cool. They're going to be a playing team. Maybe they make, you know, the seventh or eighth seed by point differential, which if you ask any of the analytics guys is the more accurate gauge of what a team's, you know, relative strength is to the rest of the conference. They've got the best, fifth best point differential in the East. They're only behind the big four, the Celtics, Pistons, Knicks and Cavs. And then it's the Hornets. So that's point number one, point number two. Since January 1st, they're 21 and nine, which is incredible on its own. And that's a pretty big sample size. That's tied with the Celtics and Spurs for the most wins since January 1st. In that time, they are first in offensive rating, fifth in defensive rating, first in net rating at 11.9 per 100, ahead of Boston at 9.3 and Detroit at 8.8. Like, they're not just the ninth best team in the Eastern Conference, they're probably no worse than the fifth best team in the Eastern Conference as we speak. It's just that they're kind of, you know, anchored by their early season record. They are playing their asses off. Everything is coming together. That starting five that, that Logan mentioned has the best as, as a five man group, has the best net rating of any five man group in the NBA by a lot. According to Cleaning the Glass. They've been fantastic. Lamelo. Yes, Raj, Logan and I have both been critical of him at times. But my thing was, if you remember, and I think this, this is an accurate recollection of my own critique of Lamelo. No one's ever doubted his talent, his ability or his ability to drive winning if he could rein himself in a little bit. And the problem, the disconnect between the stats and the showmanship and just like, yeah, awesome to watch. But where are the wins? In part, part of that was just like discipline, right? And whether it's him maturing, whether it's him having better guys to play off of and, and cater to in Brandon Miller blossoming and, and con can apple arriving, whether it's all of it, he is doing that. And so just real quick on Lamelo, this is, he's averaging 19 points a game, which would be the lowest since his rookie year. But that's not a knock, that's actually a benefit. He's at 17 field goal attempts a game. That's four fewer than last season. He was averaging 21 a game last season. It's the lowest since his second year in the NBA. He's taken two fewer threes, four fewer twos. His effective field goal percentage is like 500. It's still not like, great, like 50% effective field goal rate is not the most efficient for high volume ish score. But he has reigned himself in. And I think that the whole thing was like, if you could just eliminate a couple of the crazier shots per game, then that's a benefit to your team. Those are, those are then not wasted possessions. That's a possession that somebody else is doing something more constructive with. And again, maybe that's just a matter of having a better supporting cast that he can trust and play off of. Maybe it's a little bit of Charles Lee, you know, kind of getting him in the right headspace. Maybe it's just Lamelo himself, to his credit. Like, it's probably a lot of everything, but there's. There's not a lot, you know, to criticize right now. I mean, plenty of growth to go, but, like, he's been great, that team's been great, and they are way better than their record suggests right now.
- [47:33]
Raja Bell
Yeah, I would absolutely be dreading pulling them in the first round of the playoffs, like, if I were one of those higher seeds like now, you know, I just wouldn't. I wouldn't want to have to face what they do offensively. Let me just go back to the Lamello thing, Howard, because it's a good. It's a really good point. And I think you got to like where I would have went to that. It's a little bit of everything. And I kind of equate it to, like, when young quarterbacks come into the NFL and, you know, some of them don't have success right away. Sometimes it winds up, you know, being a multitude of things. Right. They're young and they're. They don't see it the way they should see it yet. They don't necessarily have a coach and the structure, the discipline, the system that, that they need to, to streamline their game and, and have them be as successful as they need to be in the NFL. And a lot of those franchises that get them, because they're the number one, two, three, whatever picks in the draft, don't have the type of pieces around them in a lot of instances that even if you had the other things in line could. Could accompany that. That quarterback in the way that they would need to then be successful. Right. So it takes all of it kind of coming together, and I kind of See, I kind of see Lamelo in that way, right? Like, yeah, there had to be willingness from him, and I'm sure there's more buy in now, but he needed somebody from the top that was going to make it a priority. And. And you can't just bark that at someone. You. You have to get that person to trust you. And I talked about trust. It's weird. I talked about trust yesterday with ties, the program that my son's in, because they had a player that was like, you know, these guys gotta respect me this and that. And I'm like, trust and respect. A lot of people want to bark about it. And. And the only way you get it is to. Is to. Is. It's a reciprocated thing. Like, you have to give it to get it. And so, like, you could come in there dealing with Lamelo as a coach, barking shit at him, and he might not be receptive to that in a way because you didn't earn his trust. And then, you know, you finally got someone in there that could do that. He's matured, and now he has pieces to go with him. And so, like, yeah, I think you're right. I think it's a little bit of all of it. I. And I also want to touch on one more thing about him because I thought it was a really interesting play. When you juxtapose it to what I saw last night with one of our favorite topics on here. There was a play where he shot a shot, thought he got fouled, had a real opportunity. The ball quickly went from the Hornets front court to the Celtics front court, like, in the blink of an eye. And an older version of Lamelo, like. Or a. More a younger version of Lamelo, if you will, from a couple years ago, may have taken that opportunity to hang out in the backcourt now and fuck with that ref and complain and just chalk the possession up to, you know, a me, me, me, this. It's more important for me to get my gripe off and not get back. But as it were, he got his ass back. He found the man furthest away from the ball because he was last down. He. He got into help defense. The ball swung. He was. He was in a closeout high hand. And I watched that and I juxtaposed it last night to Luca picking up like his 15th tech or some shit like that. And I'm like, that's real maturity and real growth. Like. And I don't. And I don't mean to make it a Luca conversation, but, like, that's Maturity that we haven't necessarily seen like from the other one in that way. And so I did want to give him his flowers on that because while it wasn't a score and it wasn't like a, a phenomenal play that you would see reflected in the stats or anything like that, you're not going to see that on, on any highlight clips. I watched it and I was like, oh, fuck. Like, this is a dude who's. This isn't about him right now. This is a buy in, like he's grown in that regard.
- [51:12]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay. I want to, I want to bring one more thing up and this is really a Raja thing. I want to get his opinion on this. Steve kerr was on 95. 7 a game out here in the Bay and he was asked about, you know, I don't know how you guys feel about this because you guys are not in the Bay, but for the last few years, Steve has gotten criticized for his lack of development of young guys and his staff's lack of development of young guys. Who's asked about this? This was in the midst of, you know, the, the shadow of the trade of Kaminga in exchange for Porzingis. And he was asked about his reputation as a player development coach and or his staff as a player development staff and their role in the organization. And he says, well, it's. This is a long quote, so make sure you guys are listening. Well, it's the role of the organization and I think we finally addressed it over the last four or five years. We felt like there were some improvements we could make and we changed some things organizationally. We brought in a couple of people and put them in charge of player development and I think we have done a pretty good job of that over the last few years. I think part of the frustration from our fans probably stems from the fact that we have three lottery picks coming at a time when we were winning a championship and it's just hard to play 19 year olds on championship teams. The development that comes is going to be a lot different than it would come that a team that is in the lottery where you just put a guy out there for 35 minutes and let them make his mistakes. I think that's probably where some of the frustration comes on. But you see how it can work too. You see Moses Moody, you see the development over time, you see G. Santos, you see Brandon Przymski is really coming to his own and playing well. But it takes time. This is the part of the quote that got everybody riled up. I Remember when I got to Chicago and we had a couple of drafts and I was in my 10th year and I asked Phil Jackson what I thought of the guys we drafted and he said, well, it won't matter in a few years. And I said, how come? And Phil Jackson said, grownups win championships. And it's true. It's true. It's really hard to come in as a young player and be expected to have the wealth of knowledge and skill and feel that you have to have to be a championship player. I would equate it to just about anything else on earth. Tell me the profession where a guy has the highest scores at Stanford can go and be a CEO or be a partner in a firm or something. Life doesn't work that way. And so when I think about any frustrations from our fans, it probably just comes from this idea that young players should get it right away. It just doesn't work that way. Roger Bell, your thoughts?
- [53:35]
Raja Bell
Yeah, I mean, look, there's some truth to that, right? Like we all sit on here all the time talking about the type of player and the type of seasoning that a player would need, the type of experience that they would need to be, you know, real contributors on a championship level team.
- [53:48]
Logan Murdoch
Right?
- [53:49]
Raja Bell
So like, is there some truth to that?
- [53:51]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah,
- [53:53]
Raja Bell
you guys can speak more to like their, their, you know, drafting, developing, you know, hits and misses. Yeah, I'm not locked in with Golden State like that. I would, I would say this though about the Kaminga of it all or just before I get to the Kaminga, there is, there is and has been ample opportunity in my estimation watching Golden State over the last few years where they weren't squarely in a, in a championship favorite window to, to, to give development time in real time to some, some of the players Kaminga and he did, and to some degree with the, the Bajemskis and so on and so forth. But like for me this is about Kaminga, like, and maybe that's not fair, but I thought there was opportunity for Pajemski. They're everywhere, bro. I don't mean any disrespect, like, because again, it is disrespectful. So forgive me, because they're not everywhere. They're only a few amount of people that get to play in the NBA, but within the NBA, they're everywhere.
- [55:01]
Logan Murdoch
Right?
- [55:01]
Raja Bell
Like some of those type of players are everywhere. You have one that, who knows what the ceiling can be because it's got this rare combination of like size, athleticism and stuff like that. And for an older team. And I've said this ad nauseam, like when you're older you don't jump high, you don't run fast, you don't have athletic wings and you have one that might fit the bill. I just thought it was irresponsible not to give it every opportunity to try to develop like, and I'm not there every day. I don't know what that relationship's like. Clearly there was some beef and we're there, we're human, Steve. Curse human. Like I've seen it before and you will see it again where someone just gets sideways with an employee or a player or something like that and they ain't gonna play that motherfucker regardless. Like, and that happens. But you know, I, I don't, I don't think he was being all the way genuine as it related to that was. I'm, I'm sure Phil Jackson told him that. Phil Jackson only wanted grown ass men on his team. Like given the opportunity to have babies or grown men that can win a championship. Give me grown men too. But like you did have a window of time there, correct me if I'm wrong, that you weren't in championship contention recently. That you could have really been kicking the tires in a way that like would give you a bite at the apple of having a complimentary piece to, to Steph in the mold of something that you haven't had there and you didn't really, in my estimation from the outside, look it in, give it a real, real opportunity. And look, there's more to it than that. I'm acknowledging that, but that's what it looks like to me. So like I hear him, but I do, I still think you fumbled the bag on that. Now you could tell me, hey man, we watch him in practice every day, he sucks. And I'll defer to you on that because I'm not there. I don't see that. But like just once you've already got it there and it's sitting there and you've got no vehicle to move it and you are not very good anyway. I just thought that was a missed opportunity.
- [57:05]
Logan Murdoch
I will say there's a couple of things that I would say at least through four games in for Kaminga and what's versus what's going on Golden State with Porzingis very much looks like you fumbled the bag, you know, like, but
- [57:22]
Raja Bell
I hear you, It's.
- [57:24]
Logan Murdoch
He's averaging 20 on 70, shooting at 55 from three point. That was a four, that was a four game sample size. But he Looks happy. He looks very much in the mix and he looks great on that Atlanta team who was actually surging. Right. He looks like he's going to perhaps get that team option or maybe get a more long term deal in Atlanta. Right. The second thing that I would say to you, you brought up something about Porzingis and, and Kaminga and like just kind of comparing. I mean, I will just say that that was a tension point for Kaminga.
- [57:56]
Raja Bell
Oh, Pojemski, you mean?
- [57:58]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, yeah. Seeing Pajimsky get to work through his mistakes and then as soon as Kaminga makes a mistake, now you coming out. No, no, no, no, no. We don't like that.
- [58:07]
Raja Bell
Like what?
- [58:08]
Logan Murdoch
But that was a tension point before he left. Definitely one of them for sure. And I want to talk to Howard through about this because it.
- [58:18]
Raja Bell
Can I. Can I say, can I say one more thing before you go to Howard though? Because you hit it and I want to acknowledge it. I talk about it all the time. Like the freedom with which you see Jonathan Kaminga playing with physically, emotionally, and the joy, spiritually, mentally. Like I always find that fascinating with, with NBA players and the fan who isn't always privy to what that work environment is like for that player and why they might not be looking. Like they love being at work every day or reaching expectations and how quickly that can switch when you go to some. Somewhere where you feel valued and you feel trusted and, and you feel like you can be yourself. And so what it tells me is like, clearly, and it could be a two way street, he was at fault and I placed fault on both of them, Kaminga's camp and the warriors. But there was some toxic shit going on there and they had Buddy, they had Buddy in a really dark place. So like, I'm actually happy for him.
- [59:18]
Logan Murdoch
I'm happy for him too. I think the other thing, and this is going to lead to the question that I had for, for Howard, there, There is a thing, and I know you've seen it, Howard and I've seen it just being around here. The warriors, at least this iteration of the warriors, have a problem, how should I say this? They have a problem bringing outsiders into the fold. Right. The biggest example of that is Kevin Durant, right. They just don't know how to necessarily bring guys that weren't the pillars of the organization into the fold and them having a great experience, right? Kevin Durant didn't have a great experience here. You know, some of the draft picks that we're going to talk about didn't have a great experience there. But more than anything, it's like it's very hard for those that organization to integrate new pieces into it. And a lot of that is just like how they, how the friction between a young player going into a championship organization. What Steve has just said with his own words, words right like we don't know that has been the, the attitude that Steve had in that quote is the attitude that he has consistently had throughout his time and the organization has consistently had throughout their time as a, as a member of the Golden State Wars. You can, if you don't believe me, you can go ask Jordan Bell way back when. Now, Jordan Bell had his own things of, of how that didn't work out. But ask anybody that is coming into the fold if they're not a organizational pillar, they're not weren't a player when you know, the team came into championship contention. They aren't loved as much and they don't feel that love as much. The other thing, Howard, and this is what it comes. The conversation that we had yesterday on the phone. The, the warriors simply just don't draft well or draft to the needs of their, their coaches and don't do the needs. It don't bring in players all the time that, you know, their, their coaches tend to approve of. Where does this, I don't know where this puts Steve and I don't know where this puts where with this window into this current warriors team. I don't think that that window was really, really advantageous for the next few years. I am, It's. I think things are going to look a lot different next season and we could talk about the, the specifics of that in a moment, but I don't know where the warriors go from here. It's not a question. I just want to go to. What are your thoughts on this situation? Like, where are we right now? I'll get to what I, what I, what I want to say, but I want to get you in here.
- [61:50]
Howard Beck
The phrase organizational failure keeps coming into my head and I'll, I'll get to that in a second. But Raja, real quick, like, not for nothing, Jonathan Kaminga played 278 games with the warriors and over 6,000 minutes. Like, the idea that they did not give him enough reign, enough rope, enough leeway, whatever to evaluate him or get a sense of him or, or give him a chance to show what he could do like they did and they just repeatedly decided it's not what they wanted. Now they be, they may be wrong, but he was there for four plus seasons and played over 6,000 minutes. Like he, I think that was the thing, right? Like Steve Kerr would be like, I don't trust him. And then it'd be like, you know, put him out there for a little while. Oh, he's going, all right. And then like three, four, five games. Cool, cool, cool. And then suddenly, nope, another game where I don't trust him.
- [62:39]
Logan Murdoch
Boom.
- [62:39]
Howard Beck
And then he's like benched. And like, I get that like yanking with the players confidence and consistency of minutes and roll and everything is, is really tough. I totally get that. And so it's not just the minutes. It's not just the games. I'm not trying to be oversimplified.
- [62:53]
Raja Bell
Yeah. I guess my point was it like, you're right, Howard. What I'm saying was it wasn't necessarily about the minutes. And if he played a bunch of minutes and all that, but you didn't want to do it. The deck was against him. From you didn't. And so then you were always. It was a self fulfilling prophecy. You ain't want him. And so no matter what he did,
- [63:11]
Logan Murdoch
like, like adding to that really for context, he would, like Steve would get pissed off that Kaminga didn't pass the ball to Steph. I mean, you watch a Warriors game, Kaminga always, I mean, not coming up. Pazinski always looks off step. It stays at the game the whole time. That's. That was contention. But go ahead.
- [63:26]
Raja Bell
Yeah, my bad, Howard, go ahead. I just want to like, I agree with you, they get played. But like, come on.
- [63:31]
Howard Beck
What we really have here though is organizational failure. Organizational failure. The Kaminga trade is indicative of that. When they finally offloaded Wiseman, it was an example of that. The way that they have or have not been able to find a way to maximize Pajemski or Moody or anyone, all of these things. Like I said this years ago and everybody who's been listening to this podcast knows it. I have always been of the mindset that, and predating me being on this podcast, that when you have Steph Curry or LeBron James or any of those guys, you are obligated to be all in at all times with that guy. And by extension of that to Steve Kerr's quote of Phil Jackson. Yeah, young guys don't usually win and they're not usually ready. And if you have a championship caliber team trying to incorporate like 19 and 20 year olds on the fly and have them be productive while you're trying to contend for titles, it almost never works that way. So I was always of the belief that they should have traded the pick that became Wiseman long before they ever chose James Wiseman. They should have traded the picks that were Moody and Kuminga. Like, trade all of it. Get guys who can help you right now. Because that's the mandate when you have Steph Curry. They didn't. They drafted guys and they made some bad choices. Right. It's not just whether or not they develop these guys, whether they picked. It's whether they picked the right guys in the first place. Right. We all know the deal, right? Could have had LaMelo ball instead of Wiseman, could have had Franz Wagner instead of. Was it Moody or Kaminger or both?
- [65:03]
Logan Murdoch
Both, probably.
- [65:04]
Howard Beck
Yeah. Like, you had opportunities to draft better players and guys who might have fit your program and that Kerr might have, you know, given more rope to because they had a little bit better talent or feel for the game. Like Kerr is all about, do you. You know, do guys have an intuitive feel for the game? Right? Do they. Do they get off the ball quickly if they don't have the shot? Right. Do they keep the offense moving? It's not just about feeding Steph or anything else. It's about, do you fit what we try to do, which is play an intuitive style where the ball and players are moving. And if you don't fit that, then you fall out of Kerr's, you know, rotation, or you. Or you fall out of favor. So organizational failure in that. I think they should have traded those picks or they should have picked better guys. And if you pick guys who don't fit your coach and your superstar, then that's on you as an organization. And then because the owner was really in love with some of those players, Wiseman and Kaminga in particular, they held onto them too long. So, like, there's a Steve Kerr piece of this, but it goes way beyond him. It goes to Mike Dunleavy Jr. Now and Bob Myers before, but also chiefly, I think, to Joe Lacob as owner. Like, this is an organizational failure all throughout, and that's why they are where they are now.
- [66:19]
Raja Bell
Can I play devil's advocate real quick with Defranz, Wagner and whoever else, whatever the other names were, like, maybe the best thing ever, that they don't get drafted there. Yeah, like, you get drafted there and you don't. And for whatever reason, you don't fit in and you can't get on the court like some of these guys. Like, I'm just saying, who knows?
- [66:36]
Howard Beck
Yeah. I also think, though, like, you know, Wagner has shown like, he's, like, he is a star in this league. Right. And I think he would have shown that regardless of where he was, I think. And I think it's easy to take this and look at, like, Wiseman, Kuminga and the Moody, these guys, and say, like, what's the warriors for? Not developing them. Sometimes it's that the player is just not good enough. And if they go off elsewhere and still don't thrive, and we'll see. Kaminga's had a few nice games in Atlanta. That's fine. They've got no stakes whatsoever. They're going nowhere. And he could just, like, go do his thing. When you have to win and play in a context of a team that's trying to do something more, it's a different challenge. And so we'll. Let's see what Kuminga's career looks like in a couple of years. Wiseman keeps getting hurt. We'll see.
- [67:18]
Raja Bell
Yeah, but the exercise, you could. You could reverse engineer that exercise. Howard, is all I'm saying. Right. Like, Franz Wagner is clearly a better player, but if he doesn't go into a situation where he's allowed to be a better player and he's always going to be suppressed because you're trying to win games and the ball's got to go to Steph Curry, we have a
- [67:32]
Howard Beck
chicken and egg problem. Right.
- [67:34]
Raja Bell
That's what I'm saying. Right. You just don't know. That was my devil's advocate at all. You just really don't know.
- [67:39]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. And I mean, I think that speaks to Howard's, you know, point of, like, trading, because, you know, we talk. I think the podcast on the phone was better than the podcast, what we're talking about now. But
- [67:52]
Howard Beck
look, I got a little heated because we were, like, talking past each other. One point, Logan just says, man, we're just talking past each other.
- [67:57]
Logan Murdoch
We're just talking past each other.
- [67:58]
Howard Beck
We were just making completely different points. I was trying to wash dishes at the time, too, so that's.
- [68:02]
Logan Murdoch
And I was trying to take out the trash, you know, at the house. Wasn't great. So I was just trying to figure it out.
- [68:07]
Howard Beck
No, never pod before the podcast.
- [68:09]
Logan Murdoch
Never pod before the pot. Absolutely. But I. I think that to. To Howard's point overall, though, there's, like, there's two types of coaches. There's a development coach, and there's the coast that's striving to win titles. The thing that Steve and Phil have in common is that they were trying to win titles. Right. Year in and year out. And there's a certain mindset that comes with that. And I think that Kaminga was stuck in a rock in a hard place. The thing that I'm fascinated about, and it's been kind of the elephant in the room all year, is the future of Steve and I. It's the, the more days that go on, the more I feel like it's, his days are numbered with that organization, man. I, I, I, I, I reported something earlier this year about his, his assistant coaches basically moving with the notion that he's not going to be back next year. And if you see him this and I this, I reported that and this is now me talking. You see him game in and game out, it just looks like a shell of himself. He looks tired, he looks defeated in a lot of ways. And I don't know what's going to happen this summer. I don't think anyone truly knows, but it's, it's not looking as good as it has in recent years, Howard. That's all I'll say.
- [69:32]
Howard Beck
I just think this is just ageism by you. You don't understand what it's like to be at the age of me and Steve Kerr. Steve's got a couple years on me, but, you know, Steve's been older than
- [69:40]
Logan Murdoch
me for my entire life and he has looked a lot happier than me at times since I've known him.
- [69:46]
Howard Beck
I mean, undoubtedly the situation and the losing and everything. And like, look, they lost Jimmy Butler, let's not forget they lost Jimmy Butler in January to a season ending injury. They lost Steph a few weeks ago. Like the fact that Draymond Green and a bunch of dudes beat, all due respect, like, Al Horford's an NBA champion, but by the way, Al Horford came in from the outside, has done just fine there and fit in just fine. Andrew Wiggins also, too. Like, it's, some guys have come in since the first run of championships and I think found their way in Steve's system and in that universe. But like, yeah, like they beat the Rockets last night, but like there's no, there's, it just feels like they're playing out the string. And it's felt like that ever since, kind of since Jimmy went down. And certainly since Steph's been out for the last few weeks, it feels like there's a bigger cloud over them than there ever has been in this entire run. And I know, I know, I know people have been saying for the last couple of years, oh, the dynasty was over after the last championship, like, or the, the run was already over. Why is everybody saying it now, it's already been the case. Look, Jimmy Butler got there and gave them a jolt, and it looked like maybe they could. They could squeeze something else out from this. And then Steph gets hurt. They lose to the Timberwolves in the playoffs this season. They're looking like, you know, it was up and down, and then, boom, Butler's out and this season's gone. And every season that goes by with Steph at this age and Draymond at this age and Jimmy at that age is. Puts you that much closer to point of no return. And maybe they were already there. Who knows where it comes to Steve, like, his contract is up after this season, and he keeps. When he talks about the future and when Steph talks about it, it's always Steph saying, me and Draymond and Steve, like, they're, like, they're in lockstep in terms of their careers and their contracts, but it's literally not true. Steph and Butler and Draymond are all under contract for next season, and Steve is not. And here we are, it's early March, and there's been no news about an extension. And I'm with you, Logan. I was a little bit skeptical. Not skeptical. I wasn't sure what to make of it. Earlier in the season, I thought, you know what? This happens sometimes. But Steph clearly wants him there. Steve wants to be there. He's been there forever. Like, they'll figure it out. Lacob and Mike Dunleavy Jr. Steve, they'll all figure it out. It'll be fine. I'm not sure I believe that anymore. And some of the things I've heard, even within the last week, and talking to people around the league who are kind of monitoring the situation really closely, I am starting to get the sense that, yeah, this, this just might be it. And whether that's. That's Steve's decision or whether that's the organization, whether it's mutual and I don't want to, like, listen, this is not. I'm not reporting intel. Don't fucking aggregate this.
- [72:38]
Logan Murdoch
They're already going to, bro. I know it's already going to happen, but Netflix, dog.
- [72:44]
Howard Beck
You're so rude, Howard. I, I, I get, I get the sense that this is. That this is it, but I could be wrong. I hope I am, because I, you guys know me. I like the storybook ending where Steve, Steph and Draymond and maybe a clay back on a minimum contract somehow all walk off into the sunset together. But, you know, that ain't reality.
- [73:03]
Logan Murdoch
So I would Say, if I were betting, man, I wouldn't bet on it. I could be surprised, but I. I wouldn't. Yeah. There's your aggregation.
- [73:10]
Howard Beck
Aggregate that.
- [73:11]
Logan Murdoch
Aggregate that. Oh, Netflix, baby. All right. This has been a long pot. I'm surprised Roz is still interested, but we have one.
- [73:17]
Raja Bell
I just started drifting. I like. Right. You know what's funny? Like, right when Howard was talking, I'd been locked in. I started. I felt the drift, dude. My phone started. Look, I learned. Yeah. So.
- [73:29]
Logan Murdoch
All right, we got everyone of the week, though. We have a one of the week. Okay. It's Friday. Okay. Let's do for our week, and then we'll get up out of here. All right, I'll go first.
- [73:39]
Raja Bell
Go ahead.
- [73:40]
Logan Murdoch
I want to give it to some of my childhood homies, the rap group, super group out of the Bay Area, one umbrella, who was based, I think, 22nd gems in it. All Black Yee Zay Bang. I'm probably gonna forget some.
- [73:55]
Raja Bell
Those are their names.
- [73:56]
Logan Murdoch
Those are their names. Okay.
- [73:58]
Raja Bell
Yep.
- [73:58]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they have a new album out, and they have a single with Larry June that just dropped. And I looked on the Instagram yesterday, and they had a video of them on Times Square. Almost shed tears seeing that out of the Bay. That's huge for us. So One Umbrella out here doing the damn thing. Bay Area rap is still alive. So shout out to One Umbrella. Ruin of the week.
- [74:25]
Raja Bell
No doubt.
- [74:26]
Logan Murdoch
No doubt.
- [74:26]
Raja Bell
Go ahead, Howard.
- [74:27]
Logan Murdoch
You got it, Raja. What's your Raja, Howard? Now go, Howard. What's your favorite One Umbrella song? Yeah, I'm just with you. Go ahead. I'm not gonna do. I'm not gonna do the whole press
- [74:37]
Raja Bell
box, but I'm gonna go look them up, though. I want to. I want to hear it.
- [74:39]
Logan Murdoch
All right, for sure.
- [74:42]
Howard Beck
I'm giving it to Lou Dort. Did you guys see his interview with the Athletic?
- [74:46]
Logan Murdoch
No.
- [74:47]
Howard Beck
Lou Dorch is getting dragged for days by the entire universe, including Raja Bell.
- [74:51]
Raja Bell
No, calling him.
- [74:53]
Howard Beck
Calling him dirty. Same as Dirty Play.
- [74:56]
Raja Bell
Dirty Play.
- [74:57]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah.
- [74:58]
Howard Beck
Yeah. So our buddy Joel Lorenzi from the Athletic caught up with Lou Dort when the Thunder were in Chicago, Caught him, said, hey, you know, there's been a lot of talk about this. You've seen what the Nuggets have said, what Jokic has said, what David Adelman said, all this. And Lou Dort said, he went over the line. He says, quote, it's a physical game, and there's limits to it. And I went over the limit. And then he says, they were right about hearing Jokic's reaction to it being unnecessary. Dort says, quote, that was an unnecessary move by me, something I shouldn't have done. He did also say, I don't think I'm dirty. And he defended himself on that note. But, like, I thought that was great of Lou Dort. Like, he could have just like, dug in. Certainly the Thunder as an organization had dug in, doubled and tripled down on like, oh, no, he didn't do anything wrong. Props to Dort for, like, recognizing that this was problem. This was. This was over the line. And look that he's. He's a great defender and a really aggressive player. And most of the time that's to his benefit and his team's benefit. Sometimes things spill over, but I think it's great that he's willing to basically just kind of say it at this point. So props to Lou Dort for. For that.
- [76:09]
Raja Bell
I mean, I don't think he couldn't hide from that dude. Like, that was.
- [76:15]
Howard Beck
He doesn't have to admit it, though. Gotta could have dug in. Yeah, guys do.
- [76:20]
Raja Bell
Yeah, you do look like a. Okay, but I'm Joel too.
- [76:24]
Logan Murdoch
Shout out to Joe.
- [76:25]
Howard Beck
Yeah, shout out to Joel. He's. He's the real, real one of the week for asking him the question. Somehow four or five days after the fact, he hadn't been asked the question, I guess.
- [76:35]
Raja Bell
But my real one, I. I don't. I don't have one that I'm really, like, passionate about or anything that jumps off this. I'm gonna give it to LeBron James, like last night in the game against Denver where, like, he received a little shot from the joker in his ribs. No, that one didn't rise to the level that we would talk about as being. Maybe I was just physical to play. No, it wasn't. Anyway, it was. I was just joking. He's just. LeBron went down in a heap and did his normal thing, but he did pass. He did pass. Kareem, I think on like the all time field goal made like, like, list. Like, is he number one in the NBA now? Yeah, I think it's like, yes, he's number one in NBA history and field goals made. That's a hell of an accomplishment. So real one of the week to LeBron James for that. Hope your ribs are okay.
- [77:24]
Logan Murdoch
Doug. Help your ribs.
- [77:25]
Howard Beck
I think he hurt his elbow.
- [77:27]
Raja Bell
Did he hurt his elbow? Oh, he hurt his elbow. Okay. All right.
- [77:30]
Howard Beck
This morning that he like, banged his. Banged up his elbow and questionable for, I think, for tonight.
- [77:36]
Logan Murdoch
All right.
- [77:36]
Raja Bell
All right then. Well, hope your elbow and your ribs are.
- [77:38]
Logan Murdoch
All right sir. We went an hour and 18 minutes. Let's get the hell out of here maybe. Wow. This is a two parter. That was another edition of Real one of the week. Or another edition of Real Ones if you guys are still here. We thank you guys for for joining us through this journey of a podcast. See you guys on Tuesday. Make sure you guys tap into the mailbag ruinsmailback gmail.com ruins mailbag.com real was noag gmail.com we will see you guys next week. All the shits. Bye.
- [78:21]
Raja Bell
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