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Jimmy Butler–Heat Drama Continues. Plus, Predicting All-Star Game Reserves. | Real Ones
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- [00:02]
Logan Murdoch
What's poppin everybody? Logan Murdoch here from Real Ones on the Ringer NBA show and I wanted to invite you to pull up and kick it with Raja Bell, Howard Beck and myself during All Star Weekend for our live podcast. We're going to be at the Stork Punchline Comedy Club in San francisco on Saturday, February 15th at 2pm pregaming all the All Star festivities and you never know who might stop by. Get your tickets now by heading over to ringer.com events. That's ringer.com events. Hope to see you there.
- [00:37]
Cliff
This episode is brought to you by Smucker's Uncrustables. There's nothing like a snack that comes in clutch. So who's the real mvp? Uncrustables the best part of the sandwich. It's a round crimped sandwich made with soft pillowy bread filled with peanut butter and jelly. It goes straight from the freezer to your lunchbox, making it easier to pack lunch and sprint out the door. Now that's a morning win. You'll find Smucker's Uncrustables in the freezer aisle. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. Amazon's your go to for all things hoops, game gear, snacks for the late night tip offs, you name it. And now you can shop for a Hyundai there too. Pick your model and trim from a local dealer, see transparent pricing up front and knock out most of the paperwork online. Then just head to the dealership to finalize the deal. Visit Hyundai USA.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details. Limited availability only through participating Hyundai dealers in select markets. This program is available for the purchase of new vehicles and is not currently available for lease.
- [01:53]
Logan Murdoch
What's poppin? Real ones. Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell there, Howard Beck and the cut Cliff is on the boards with just a big smile on his face because his Birds are going to the Super Bowl. This is our second intro that you know. So anyways, we're going to talk about some Jimmy Butler, we're going to talk about this, a little bit of that, some all star stuff gets your mail back. Questions? Yeah. So let's start with Jimmy really quick off the top. Me and Howard had our little pre pod talk yesterday and we're gonna make this fast. But I just want to say just first of all, he's been suspended indefinitely, which means he's probably suspended up until the trade deadline. And that's honestly irrelevant to the fact that the content that has accompanied this saga has been Amazing. I DM Roger twice of, like, Instagram videos of Jimmy Butler and Kevin Love. Where are we right now? Where are we right now? Let's just. Let's just do, like, quick five minutes on Jimmy Butler. Howard, how are you feeling? Your. Your face is getting a little red, your blood boiling. How are we going? Are we good? Like, what's going on? How. How are we feeling about the Jimmy Butler saga at this stage? I feel like we've said everything we could say, but, like, top right now, listen, I'll.
- [03:10]
Howard Beck
I'll say this. We have resolution of some sort, right? If he's suspended indefinitely, and I think they said minimum five games, which takes us through the trade deadline. Trade deadline now nine days away as we tape this.
- [03:25]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah.
- [03:26]
Howard Beck
So the saga is basically over. If we can assume that he gets traded by the trade deadline, at least the Butler vs Riley saga is done. It's over. He's suspended until the trade deadline. Hopefully he gets traded by the trade deadline, then he's somebody else's headache. It'll be really fascinating to see what Jimmy says when he reaches his next destination and talks again and how the Heat respond or don't when that happens. But I think we can safely say I shouldn't assume too much. There are a lot of people around the league who feel like, and felt like even before this, it was going to get resolved, meaning via trade. So if. If we can assume a trade, and we should not assume, but if we can assume his trade is happening, at minimum, the Miami Jimmy thing is done, and nine days from now at the latest, he'll be somewhere else, and we don't have to talk about suspensions anymore or missing planes unless it happens with the next team, which you can never rule out.
- [04:23]
Logan Murdoch
Roger, do you think this should have happened sooner? I mean, it seemed like we were coming to this conclusion pretty fast, right? Like, it felt like both sides were dug in. So they have just been like, yo, Jimmy. Even like, just, we'll see you soon and we'll, you know, pay your salary or not pay your salary. But, like, you can. I mean, because, like, we. They know their team better than we know. I'm like, well, shouldn't they have just, like, done this from jump if they were at this impact. Much of an impasse?
- [04:49]
Raja Bell
Yeah, I don't know, man. I mean, at this point, like, when you're. When you're matching petty with petty. Um, and I think I'm correct on this. But, but. But if I'm wrong, please let me know. Like, if you. If you are Telling someone to go away, you are responsible for their salary. So, like, that's a. Basically a win win for someone in Jimmy's situation. Like, he don't want to play the role you're asking him to play. You're letting him not be responsible for coming to practice and shit like that. And you still have to pay him. Well, if you. If you just make it untenable to the point where he don't want to be there and he's acting a fool now you get to suspend him and you don't have to pay him for that. Right? Like, so when you're matching pettiness with pettiness, I mean, that's a net win for the Heat, right? Like, you're like, we get to suspend you now versus making you go away without pay. You know, I. I'm on in agreements with Howard. Like, I think it is done now that they've. Now that they've taken this step, and it's just completely, like, unresolvable. I don't remember you asked me last time, Logan, if I thought, like, Miami would swallow the poison pill if they had to. I'm not so sure they do that anymore. I think suspending him through the trade deadline, like, clearly their intent is to move him. Like, I mean, I guess there's still a world where that doesn't happen, but it's just crazy because, like, I.
- [06:06]
Howard Beck
You.
- [06:06]
Raja Bell
Know, again, I've referenced, you know, getting sideways with an organization and taking my golf clubs on road trips and stuff like that, but, you know, missing flights and walking out of stuff like, that's wild. And, you know, it. It's just. It's just not a great look, man. And I'm.
- [06:25]
Logan Murdoch
I'm.
- [06:25]
Raja Bell
I'm, for the most part, pro player, but for the random fan that I hear blaming the Heat and Pat Riley for what's happened here, I'm always baffled at that person because I. I mean, at the end of the day, it's your job. You're a professional basketball player or you're a professional football player, or you're on it. You know, you're on a team, and whether you like it or not, like, you have a duty to show up there and try to do your work. Now, you don't have to like what they're asking you to do, but you got to do it. And I just don't see how people are blaming anyone other than Jimmy on it.
- [06:58]
Logan Murdoch
I think the other thing. And I thought of you when this was happening, Roger. Like, there's also, like, when you talk about. From a teammate aspect, there's been, you know, we referenced Kevin Love, like making fun of the situation, right? And he has like a good, good. A good way about it and bringing levity to it. But I think about Tyler Hero who's like, you know, I'm paraphrasing, but his quote was, you know, that's Jimmy and like he's in and out of the lineup and we just got to figure it out, right? And then like. But I think what's getting lost in this discussion, it's all the entertaining part of Jimmy and like he's done this in multiple things, but also just like what it does to the teammate aspect. And I think that's what you see, like when you see the backlash from like a Udonis Haslam. This is why it is, right? Because yeah, you're trying to get what you want, but it at a certain point, like something has to give. You can't do your teammates like that because what's walking out of a shoot around is like, what are you. Like you're walking out of a shoot around because you didn't get what you want. Why would you even come anyway? I feel like there's a discernment between teammates if on one hand, say if you're, if you're going through a contract impasse and you know this more better than I do, Roger, but like players don't get in other players pockets like that. Like, that's between you and management, right? But when you bring it to the team and you come back, you should be all in with the group. And I feel like the problem here with Jimmy Butler is he's got one foot in and out, like either come and go to work or not, but I feel like he's putting his teammates through a roller coaster that they don't deserve.
- [08:38]
Raja Bell
Well, I think, you know, you're right in that while we're not in each other's pockets and we're not really worried about your negotiations with the team versus mine and X, Y and Z, like when you start creating this level of instability around the organization that is now affecting my bread because it's affecting some degree my ability to go out there and win games, my ability to be ready to. To either start or not start. If I'm backing you up and I'm the sometimes starter, every everybody else that's in the lineups, you're just affecting everyone's ability and you're affecting their pockets in that way. Not to mention that, you know, I would say for the, for, for the most Part even that sometimes is like, all right, man, like, we're going to put Jimmy, you know, or whatever player out of our mind. We're going to treat it like he's not going to be here to the best of our ability, compartmentalize that. If he shows up, we will try to, like, incorporate him on the fly, but we got to prepare as if he's not a part of the team. That's the only way we can really do this and keep rolling in the right direction. Where people start getting salty is when you got him sitting around on a tarmac waiting for five fucking hours or whatever that is. Now you're fucking with me, right? You acting like your time is more important than mine. While you might be a more important cog in this wheel, don't mistake us as human beings and your time being more important than my time. I might have something to do or some family where we're headed to and shit to do, and that's when you start to disrespect your teammates in a real way, Right? Like, the rest of it is work environment. But, like, when you start having people waiting five hours around for you, like, that's their job. Now I start to get a little, you know, heated at the situation in a way that I might not be ordinarily.
- [10:17]
Howard Beck
Well, here's the thing, too. Like, why is Jimmy in this funk in the first place? Well, it goes back to not getting the contract extension that he wanted in the off season. So it all starts there, right? And eventually this ends with, I need to be somewhere else. The Heat have already told him they've sold the world. We're going to trade you when we get the right offer. They're not trying to keep him. They're not trying to hold him hostage. So for Jimmy to come back and then act up again, do whatever, you know, missing a practice, missing a plane, refute you're walking out of, shoot around because he's not going to start whatever they've already told you they're going to trade. You're going to get what you want. In the meantime, all you have to do is show up, show at least a minimal amount of professionalism. You're not going to play hard because you already weren't playing hard. And which I hate to say because I love Jimmy Butler for how hard he always plays throughout his career, but it's clear the last month or so that he's been just trying to angle his way out through whatever means possible, but come to work, play up to some certain minimal standard. Just do your thing. You don't want to talk to anybody. Don't talk to anybody. You want to be a dick, be a dick. Oh, it's fine, whatever. But they've already said they're going to trade you, and there's. There's less than two weeks left. Like, could you just show up and do the right thing in the short term until they finally resolve this by. He couldn't even do that much. Like, this is all on him. And I'm. Roger, I'm so glad you said this as the former player, because the number of people like the arguments I was getting into last night on Blue sky, everybody come find me on blue sky. At Howardbeck, BSky Social. I am not tweeting on the other platform at all anymore at this st. Page. The. The arguments I was getting from people trying to make. Well, what about the heats responsible? What about Riley? What they, like, what did they do other than not give him an extension and not trade him the second he said, I want out like you? It's hard to make trades in this league, harder than ever, and especially when it's somebody with Jimmy Butler's contract. Jimmy Butler's age, 35, with a lot of wear and tear. He doesn't play a lot. And all these antics are the kind of things that scare off a lot of teams. So it's not like they're trying not to trade him or inflame situate the situation. I don't know where the heat have gone wrong here. I don't. I don't ever want to sound like I'm. I'm an apologist for either side in any of these conflicts, but this is like 99.8% Jimmy Butler at this stage.
- [12:40]
Raja Bell
Yeah, I mean, I 100% agree, Howard. I am more often than not seeing things through a player's lens, going to side with the player.
- [12:49]
Logan Murdoch
And.
- [12:49]
Raja Bell
And, you know, I pride myself on calling a spade a spade. I agree with you 100%. Like, I'm. And. And I would just add. I think you touched on it is like, look, dude, you're not even, like, what you want is to get out of here. And you're, like, tanking our ability to do that. Like, do you know what I mean?
- [13:06]
Logan Murdoch
My biggest thing with this, bro, you're.
- [13:08]
Raja Bell
Not even helping us help you.
- [13:10]
Logan Murdoch
You over here leak it. I don't want. I want to go anywhere but Memphis. You're doing the fucking I'm back shit, right? Like, and then, like, losing by 30.
- [13:18]
Howard Beck
The I'm back thing was.
- [13:19]
Logan Murdoch
Was.
- [13:19]
Howard Beck
Was like Embarrassing.
- [13:21]
Logan Murdoch
So embarrassing, bro.
- [13:23]
Howard Beck
You are not Michael Jordan. And the context kind of matters of the. I'm back, by the way.
- [13:29]
Logan Murdoch
Good Lord. I mean, I'd like to see him on Phoenix. All that, with all intents and purposes, just because of, like, he put a kick in their ass. But, like, does. Does anybody want this headache? Right? Then, you know, like, you're going to. You're going to have to get both give up assets and then pay them on another deal.
- [13:48]
Raja Bell
Like, dude, that's a scary one, man. If I was in. So I'm telling you, if I was in somebody's front office, you know, at this point, and I've sat in those meetings, when you're brainstorming with the whole office, you got analytics in there. You probably got your owner, like, on a conference call while you all sit around in one of those war rooms and, like, kind of throw shit back and forth. Like, I'd probably be the person in there with the, like, guys, are we sure? Like, I don't. Are we sure about this? I just, at this point, see some, like, having, like, someone who's willing, like, he is willing to burn your shit to the ground. Like, that's. That scares me. People who are willing to do that, like. Like, scare me to Howard, just, you know, you come in, you go to work again, I'll go back to Utah. I didn't love that. And I was playing golf on the road trips, but when I had to be at practice, I was at a damn practice. When I had to work in a practice, I worked in a practice pregame. When it was time to shoot and get my shots up, we're doing that. When it was time to be on a bus, you're on a bus. Like, yeah, I'm not happy about it. And in my free time, I'm. I might do something I want to do in a way that I haven't ordinarily done. But when it's time to clock into work, you clock into work. Someone who can't do that and is willing to, like, just burn your shit to the ground, I'm afraid of them, by the way.
- [15:08]
Howard Beck
Quick, just side note, because it comes up every so often, these discussions, and Raja, you alluded to it earlier. The Heat could not have resolved this by just sending Jimmy away, because in the new collective bargaining agreement with the player participation policy, you're no longer allowed to, just by mutual consent, say, we're just sending you home. So they couldn't. That was not an option. It was not an option on the table to just say, Listen, go away until we figure out how to trade you somewhere. It was not an option. So their only option was play him if he shows up, suspend him if he violates team rules. And that's what they've done. Like they, everything that he'd have done has been in reaction to Jimmy and in trying to defuse or resolve the situation. And the only thing you could blame them for not doing, I suppose is not trading him yet. But again really hard to do in this league. And when they finally do make a trade in the next nine days, which I, I do think is going to happen just because people around the league feel like it's going to happen and I trust folks I talk to, it's going to end up being some wild ass like 5, 6 team trade potentially like this is. Or it's minimum, it's a third, third team, probably a fourth and maybe a fifth and like it's going to be like Jimmy's going to Phoenix and Beal is going to like Chicago and Levine's going to Milwaukee and it's going to be one of these, it's going to. Middleton's going to land somewhere. Like it's going to be some crazy ass deal that involves like a half dozen of the names that we've been.
- [16:35]
Raja Bell
You know, monitoring all the usual suspects for trade. For trade.
- [16:39]
Howard Beck
Possibly, possibly. It should be fun when those take.
- [16:44]
Logan Murdoch
A long time to do. Like obviously they do, they take probably months. But let's. I want to say one thing before we go off to another subject that me and Howard have honestly been been pump faking because we wanted to get Raja in to talk about this. But anyway, before we get to that, I want to say something about like give flowers to the Miami Heat, the team from the coaching staff on down because a lesser group, the more fractured group would fold into this. Like I saw them in the Bay like right after this first suspension went down. Like they were still all business, you know, they were still believe they won that game. They were still locked in. And another like this type of thing could cripple a basketball team in a locker room and hashtag geek culture, you know, I mean we out here hashtag bring Roger home. What the hell. No, but can I hashtag get Roger in the locker room?
- [17:43]
Howard Beck
Can I just say real quick though, by the way, the Heat culture thing, it gets overdone. It's a little much.
- [17:50]
Logan Murdoch
I don't think it does. I don't think it does. I really don't think it does.
- [17:53]
Howard Beck
It grates on fans of other teams, especially Right, because it sounds so sanctimonious and smug and. It is. But guys like Raja, you've been around the league a long time. This is my 28th. It's hard to believe. I hate saying that a lot. It's my 20th season covering the league. In the nearly 30 years that I've been covering the league, there's a handful of teams that. That you could identify as having meaningful, substantive, consistent cultures of some sort, and in a positive way, because there are plenty of bad cultures, too. There's a handful of teams over 30 years that you could point to, and Miami and San Antonio, of course, at the top of that list. And there are some others along the way. It's meaningful and like the idea that Jimmy's. That the Jimmy saga somehow is indicative of heat culture being fraudulent. Folks, it's the opposite. They're suspending him to hold him accountable. And a team that has strong culture, strong values, defends those values and those standards by holding people accountable and suspending them if they're out of line. If you let him go, and to Logan's point, if the team's coming apart or now, everybody is just going their own separate ways, that's when you've lost the culture. The fact that they're still playing hard and just going about their business and just not letting this affect them shows that the culture can endure. So, like, I hate to be the one to sound like I'm not part of these smug, hashtag, heat culture things thing, but, folks, this is why you. You establish standards and stand by them and uphold them.
- [19:21]
Logan Murdoch
And I mean, also to add on to that for that long, right? To, like, have a culture for that long, because I think I'm looking at Roger right now like, the Suns had a legitimate culture when he was there, right?
- [19:31]
Raja Bell
And sometimes we're talking sustained sustain.
- [19:33]
Logan Murdoch
No, no, no. I'm saying how. How much. How impressive that is to have it for a long time. And I was referencing, like, when they. When they do, like. Like, when you guys had a culture, it was a culture, but it wasn't sustained. Right? And to have it over 20, 30 years, it's crazy, Beck, because when you started covering the league, I was three years old. That's why.
- [19:54]
Howard Beck
That was painful. Thank you.
- [19:55]
Logan Murdoch
Shout out to you. But I do marvel at that. Like, I think it's a real thing. That's why I don't really, like, say, I don't think it's like, it should be in your face anytime. Like, you can only talk. I think the only thing you can Compare it to is San Antonio and for this long, at least. Right?
- [20:13]
Howard Beck
So, yeah, anyways, San Antonio and San Antonio had to deal with Kawhi, right? Like, this happens sometimes. You get sideways as a player. The spurs culture of 30 years is not negated by the fact that they got sideways with Kawhi and ended up having to trade him under duress. Like, it's. It's like culture is not negated by a crisis. It's how you handle the crisis that either sustains or. Or doesn't sustain the culture. So culture is not perfection. Culture doesn't mean that the Heat do everything right. The spurs do everything right. It means that they try to stay as consistent as possible with the values that they espouse. And I think we're seeing that. Sorry, Roger.
- [20:51]
Raja Bell
No, it's. It's a good point. And I. And I would just say, like, both of those organizations, like, you know, had to deal with players. Interestingly, both of those players have at least a reputation of being high maintenance at points and, you know, looking for maybe things outside of the norm or what everybody else on the team would get. Like, there are demands, like, for lack of a better way to put it, that need to be met for them at times. And I think that, you know, getting sideways with players like that, I would argue, is even more evidence of their culture and their sustained culture. Like, not capitulating to, like, you know, to every single thing. Like, we'll bend to a point, we'll acquiesce some of it. Like, we get it, you're the star. But, like, we're not going to completely. I think that's backbone, and I think not having a backbone is part of the reason you don't see teams with sustained cultures for extended periods of times. The ones that do, you know, inevitably are going to come across someone that is pushing the limits to the point where they're like, hey, we've met. We've. We've met our level of tolerance for that, and we won't stand for it, and you'll get sideways with them. But I think that's a representation of the culture.
- [22:02]
Howard Beck
Yes.
- [22:04]
Logan Murdoch
Shout out to the culture.
- [22:06]
Raja Bell
Shout out to the culture.
- [22:08]
Logan Murdoch
For the culture. All about the culture. You know, we need more than ever, Roger, the culture. Goddamn right. Okay. There was. This is something that me and Howard have been soft launching, like, books. Okay, let's act something with Raja. Like, what's a great topic for Raja? And it might be a little late in terms of, like, when this happened, but a few weeks ago, old man in the three had Jalen Williams on one of my favorite. One of my favorite like players in the league. Matter of fact, since I'm plugging stuff, I'm plugging Marion Fader's profile of J dub on the ringer.com used to go read that. But he says something really interesting in this podcast where he said that all defensive team is the only one. There's only one all defensive team in the league. Yeah, he said he believes there should be two.
- [23:05]
Howard Beck
No, no, there's two. It should be three.
- [23:07]
Logan Murdoch
There should be three. Excuse me.
- [23:09]
Raja Bell
Three or three Defensive player of the years.
- [23:11]
Logan Murdoch
No, wait, no, three. Excuse me.
- [23:13]
Howard Beck
Yeah, that's my bad. Three.
- [23:15]
Logan Murdoch
Defense.
- [23:16]
CJ Saucedo
Three.
- [23:17]
Howard Beck
All defensive teams instead of two. Yeah, two DPO wise instead of one.
- [23:20]
Raja Bell
Right.
- [23:21]
Logan Murdoch
There you go.
- [23:21]
Howard Beck
There's. There we go.
- [23:22]
Raja Bell
Got it.
- [23:23]
Logan Murdoch
Howard. Mess it up. My throat. My thing. Anyway, so Roger, as a defense, as our, as our resident defensive stopper, what do you think of this?
- [23:32]
Raja Bell
Yeah, I actually remember. I remember I was. I saw that and I The three teams, that doesn't really move me in any way, shape or form. Like I sure there are more than 10 great defenders in the league, so I'm fine with it. But if you didn't do that, I don't know that there's necessarily a need for that. I wholeheartedly agree on the two defensive player of the years and forgive me because I didn't watch the interview, but I don't know if. Did he say that they should be differentiated between a big defensive player of the year and a. That's exactly the way it should be. And I heard some of his argument about it. I thought he was spot on with the statistics of being a defender. You know, the big is able to rack up more of the. Of the actual, you know, tangible stats that support being a good defender blocks boards and stuff like that where like, you know, some steals aren't a true representation of how good of a defender you are. They're just not. They represent how much you gamble. Like some of the, some of the highest steel per year guys that I've seen were pretty poor defenders. They just, they were out willing to gamble and put their team in real precarious situations behind them. So as a, as a wing defender that sat down and guarded and, and you know, didn't have a lot of stats because I was playing too good of a matchup to just gamble and look for steals, how would I then like rack up the amount of stats that one could see to support, you know, that, that type of award. So I agreed with him 100%. I thought it was. That was a great call. And I was able to take it a step further, like, because, you know, obviously I get brought up all the time whenever it's Kobe time. Do you know what I mean? Because, you know, just because. And, you know, I.
- [25:24]
Logan Murdoch
There.
- [25:25]
Raja Bell
There were. There were a lot of games where Kobe would just give you the work. Like an NBA professional score. The SGAs of the word, the world, Kyries, you know, Devin Booker, Kevin Durant, like, those dudes are going to score, but some of them are going to.
- [25:46]
Logan Murdoch
Have shots to get to the points that they need to get to.
- [25:48]
Raja Bell
Oh, yeah, they're going to get a pure volume of shots. All of that for sure. But, like, that doesn't negate the fact that the person guarding Kyrie, like, is. Is doing a hell of a job. Like. Like, for people that really know what defense is about, it's not whether or not he makes the shot on me. Yeah, like, people know. People who know know that I can't stop him from making that shot. At the end of the day, there's nothing I can do because I see a lot of dudes out there guarding, and, you know, my name comes up sometimes, but I see a lot of guys in today's day and age, and they make. They make a highlight and people are trashing them because the dude hit a shot over them. And. And my defensive, like, eye is like, man, that guy did everything he could potentially do, right? And that guy's just an amazing player that made a really, really tough shot. And so, I mean, I. I said a lot, but I guess the answer to your question is I. I would agree with him.
- [26:39]
Logan Murdoch
Do. Do you think. Because. Do you think that we have gotten smarter on how we look at defense? Right? Because, like, I think now just with advanced stats, I mean, even since I was a kid, like, it's got. It's just exploded. So, like, I feel like now if somebody gets 37 on you, right, or 37 on it in a game, that's an arbitrary number. But I think now, like, during games, we'll see the stat. Like, when Raja guarded Player X, he was one of seven, right? Like, do you think we've gotten smarter with how we look at defense?
- [27:16]
Raja Bell
We have, and that's cool. And everyone has made the argument before, like, in the game, at least we used to back in the day. Like, you know, he had 50, you know, but he got hot when I was on the bench, you know what I mean? Like, I had him kind of under control, and then you know, I subbed out and Leandro gave him 10, and now it's hard to control him again. And so, yeah, we have gotten better with that, you know, but even with within a night where, let's say Howard gives you 37 and he shoots a great percentage against you and you, you, you, you know, you, you had Most of like 32 of them were on you, let's say, right? And he shot a good percentage. Well, I could still make a case watching that game. If you just had an unconscious unordinary night scoring the ball because you were that kind of player, then Howard did a damn good job on you. Like, do you know what I'm saying? Like, and, and I don't. And so that's the space. That's, that's, that's. I don't know that we've advanced in like, good. You walk into any gym in the summertime and good O beats good defense every time.
- [28:22]
Logan Murdoch
But, but that's also the league, right? Like, everybody's just that good to where they can, like, just beat you on a given, on a day, like, just get hot making stupid shots, right? Or like making crazy, you know, unorthodox shots, because that's how good the league is.
- [28:37]
Raja Bell
Yeah, but, but I, I do think, to answer your question, I do think that we have come a long way in being able to really, like, with the advanced stats, being able to dig into like, your effectiveness as a perimeter defender, like, they're, they're, they're better ways to, to, to kind of prove or disprove that at this point.
- [28:55]
Howard Beck
But, like, this is why I sympathize with what Jalen Williams is saying here. And I think he was largely saying this to advocate for Lou Dort. So Lou Dort, easily one of the best defenders in the league. You guys realize he's never made the all defensive team, much less defensive player of the year. And obviously, like the Thunder have a bunch of really good defenders. But it's always been easier to quantify how a big, especially a seven footer who's a rim protector affects defense than guards. And like, you could say, well, we've got steals for the guards and blocks for the big or something like that. I think literally that's how primitive our analysis was for decades because, like, those are the only stats we had. There was no tracking stats, there were no advanced stats. There was nothing else. But if you look at like the winners of the Defensive Player of the Year award over the years, with the exception of what? So Marcus Smart broke it up when he wanted in 22, but it was basically like all, you know, all centers or power forwards for years. You know, Kawhi Leonard if you want to say small forward perimeter, more of a perimeter, perimeter defender. But like you go back year after year after year and it's Marc Gasol and Joachim Noah and Dwight Howard three times in a row and it's Kevin Garnett and it's Marcus Camby and it's Ben Wallace a bunch of times Metta World Peace breaks it up. But still like not guard guards. And you got to go all the way back to like Gary Payton in 96 to like find a like a guard who had won it. So especially in today's NBA where the responsibilities of the bigs and the perimeter guys are so different and we have better ways of quantifying. Like I could see definitely having two. I absolutely think, and I've advocated for this in the past, you can go back five, six, seven years and I was advocating that we needed a third all defensive team. There are more than 10 good guys. And I looked this up because I was curious. They started the all defensive teams in the 196869 season with two five man teams. Right. There were 14 NBA teams back then. So as a percentage that was pretty high. We got to 1988, 89 when the NBA added Orlando and Miami, Charlotte, Minnesota over a two year span. So when the NBA hits expansion in the late 80s, that's when they went from two all NBA teams to three. So for the longest time we had two all defensive teams, two all NBA teams. And the NBA did add the third all NBA team in 1988, 89. And they've never added the third all defensive team. And I'm not saying all NBA is strictly offense, but it's, it kind of is. I mean it, it's, it, it leans heavily toward offense over defense. And so if you're having three all NBA teams, why don't we have three all defensive teams and there's definitely enough candidates to fill them.
- [31:39]
Raja Bell
Can I just tell. I'm going to break the, the seriousness for one second. So I want to get back to the topic, but a quick little story. Coach A.J. milweeke from Texas was here the other night like and we were kind of chopping it up and stuff like that. And I want to take a picture with him and Dia and the boys before he left. And so we went into our little pool room and stuff and I got jerseys on the wall and stuff like that. And there's some awards laying out on this display. Kind of cabinet. And he was like, what's that? And I was like, oh, do you want to see what you get for all defensive first team? And I showed him. It's like, a little. It's like, a little. It's. He was blown away by the little crystal cube that I have that. That. That you were awarded back in the day for winning all defensive first team. Like, he couldn't believe that that's what you got. And it just happened, like, last week. So when we were out in Texas this weekend, he was. We were out to dinner, and he was telling the story to someone else, like. And he is, like, literally, like, dude, you wouldn't believe what they gave them for winning, like, first team all day.
- [32:42]
Logan Murdoch
That's. That's what they. That's what it shows with the league prioritizes, right, Rob? Like, Jesus, come on.
- [32:47]
Raja Bell
I'm not. I wasn't really complaining. It is kind of comical, but, like, I mean, I wasn't really complaining about it, but, yeah, I mean, like, we all know that.
- [32:54]
Howard Beck
I wonder if those are fancier now.
- [32:56]
Raja Bell
It would be a good question. I'd like to see what they get now retroactively.
- [32:59]
Logan Murdoch
Pleased Lee, give Raja a bigger trophy, bro.
- [33:02]
Raja Bell
I didn't even like that. It was more comical, bro. I don't give a. I don't even go and look at that. But, like, showing him and his disbelief, and that's what you got. I was like, oh, that's crazy. Crazy.
- [33:11]
Howard Beck
Is it. Is it bigger than my. My writing trophy from the PBWA from a few years back?
- [33:15]
Logan Murdoch
Are we just flexing now?
- [33:16]
Raja Bell
Oh, no, no, no. It's about Howard. I love that. It's a. It's. Yeah. Yours is bigger.
- [33:29]
Logan Murdoch
Wow. Wow. Here's a pin that I. From paying for at the store. Oh. Oh, goodness. I don't even. I had. I had a question.
- [33:45]
Raja Bell
Where do we go from there?
- [33:47]
Howard Beck
You go to break.
- [33:48]
Raja Bell
That's where you go.
- [33:50]
Logan Murdoch
Before we go to break, I just want to give some flowers real quick. Retroactive flowers, obviously, to Howard and Roger for their. Their trophies. Yo, man, I just want to get some flowers today. I don't have a segment for them, but, like, I just want to say, like, flowers to the Houston Rockets, man. I saw what they did last night in Boston, dude. Shout out Amen Thompson. You know what I mean? Like, dude, that just. Amen what Ma Udoka has done there, you know? And I know what's happened prior to that or didn't. We don't know exactly, but, like, yo, what he's doing right now in Houston, I don't think it's fully being seen right now. And I think last night in Boston was like a weird type of coming out party for a lot of people, right? Just show like whenever you beat a good team on a stage like that, it was really good. So Flower City Houston Rockets.
- [34:37]
Raja Bell
I'd like to. He's one of the dudes. I'd actually like to sit in and watch him. I don't know if I've said this before, but the league around the NBA top 50 camp or top 100 camp, it used to be up at the University of Virginia they would do a coaching clinic. Brendan Soar would put it on and they would film us, current players that aspired to be coaches throughout the course of the weekend coaching our team, doing like workshops with, with coaches running huddles, teaching each other plays. Like. And he was in my group, like IME was in my group the year we went up there. So not to say that I didn't see this coming, but like I remember him starting on the journey because we were together. I would love to sit in and just watch how he gets a team from point A to point B to point C, like, because he's really, really good. Like he's really good.
- [35:31]
Logan Murdoch
What I've impressed about him from a coaching standpoint is he has both the smarts of a coach that is, that can, you know, get great sets, can get all these things right. But also like he. In every locker room he's been in, he has earned his players respect. It's a delicate balance because either you have one or the other, right? Like, either you have like the playbook. Oh my goodness. Brad Stevens just. I have all these atos, right? Not to say that Brad Stevens didn't have the human element. I'm not saying that, but I'm just saying what he was more known for. Or like you have, you know what the. Mark Jackson was in Golden State, right? This rah rah guy that is going to make players believe that they are going to do better than they're supposed to do. And Ma has both, which is really impressive.
- [36:23]
Raja Bell
The great, the great ones have both.
- [36:25]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, yeah.
- [36:26]
Raja Bell
I mean like that's what you're saying, right? Like it's. Not everybody has both, but like the, the spos, the pops, you know, the, the. They have, they are, they're able to have both.
- [36:37]
Logan Murdoch
The Phil Jackson.
- [36:37]
Raja Bell
The Phil's. The Phil's. Yeah.
- [36:39]
Logan Murdoch
I mean Dantonium. Dantoni had that too, right?
- [36:42]
Raja Bell
I mean, no. D. Antonio was. Yes, absolutely. D'ANTONI was great at that. Like, I know a lot of people don't put him in the great category, but I mean, I certainly do. But I didn't say his name. Cause I, you know, I ain't.
- [36:54]
Logan Murdoch
Why you don't want to give Mike no.
- [36:55]
Raja Bell
Cause championships. I was using champions dog. Like, clearly anybody asks me, Mike's. Mike's my guy. That's my. That's my favorite. Him and him and Jerry Sloan are my two favorites.
- [37:03]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. Was Jerry like that too?
- [37:05]
Raja Bell
Jerry was Jerry. So Jerry was interesting because not to take anything away from Jerry's offensive mind, but that was Phil Johnson's baby, the offense. So Jerry was. Was more of the other guy. Like, obviously an ex player, huge personality. Like, huge person, commanded respect. You know, motivational as hell, defensive minded. And then Phil Johnson was the architect of the, of the offensive stuff.
- [37:35]
Howard Beck
The other thing that stands out about IME is just how old school he is in a league and in an era where like, the coach isn't in charge anymore. Like, it used to be like the coach was the boss, right? You know, Pat the. Pat Riley, Chuck Daly, Phil Jackson, whatever model. Like, we don't have a lot of that anymore. And like, like no one's, no one's messing with.
- [37:53]
Logan Murdoch
I'd be curious though, with Ame. I'd be curious though, like down in whatever his coaching career is, when he coaches like a veteran. Veteran group. Because the. Both the two teams he had, his best players were like, were younger, a little bit more impressionable. Right? At least, you know, he had. He inherited young Jason Tatum and a young Jalen Brown now heaven. Um, so I'm. I'll be curious to see how that evolves if he has a veteran team. Because, you know, veteran teams kind of leave. They don't, they don't like that. They don't like just all in your. All in your. In your shit. But anyways, Flowers to the Houston Rockets. Let's take a quick break and we're going to go over all star reserves.
- [38:32]
Howard Beck
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- [40:33]
Logan Murdoch
Now@Gnc.Com this episode is supported by State Farm. Man, I remember when I first got into a car accident, it was pure frustration because I did not have State Farm. And now that I do have State Farm, it is an exclamation of pure joy. But the only words that you need to remember are like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. State Farm has options to fit your unique insurance needs, meaning you can talk to your agent to choose the coverage you need. Have coverage options to protect the things you value most, file a claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and even reach a real person when you need to talk to someone. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Learn more@state farm.com and we are back, me and Howard doing this segment of All Star Reserves. It's a bit of editing magic from our guy Cliff here, but it's going to be me and Howard doing the All Star Reserves. Raja has some real business to attend to. All right, All Star Reserves. Let's let's pick. Give me your Eastern Conference reserves and then we can go through that and then we'll go to the Western and I'll tell you mine and we'll swap a roof for the Western Conference. So who are your Eastern Conference reserves?
- [41:50]
Howard Beck
So just to remind the listeners, the starters, as chosen by the combination of fans, media and players, the starters are in the back court, Jalen Brunson and Donovan Mitchell. Front court is Giannis, Jason Tatum and Carl Anthony Towns. So for the reserves, and these are going to be picked by the coaches. So settle down, folks, before you start getting mad at us for who we picked or didn't pick or whatever. This is all just for fun. The coaches are picking the reserves. We'll be. We'll find that out Thursday night when TNT announces it. You get three front court, two backcourt, and then two at any position. So here, here's. Here are mine. The three front court reserves. Evan Mobley, Pascal Siakam, Jalen Brown, backcourt, Darius Garland and Cade Cunningham. And then the two wild card spots, I went with Trey Young and Dame Lillard.
- [42:41]
Logan Murdoch
Okay, I can get with that. I picked on this one for my back court, I picked Dame Lillard and Trae Young. For my front court, I picked Evan Mobley and Pascal Siakam, and I picked Cade Cunningham also for my front court. And I think I pushed my wild card to Jalen Brown and the reason why. And I was like, kind of back and forth on if I was going to give, like, Jalen Brown, like, a solid slot. But, like, he's. He's not shooting particularly well this year. And I think, and I wanted to. He's. He's offensively, he is shooting like the worst he has since his rookie year. And I, I didn't want to reward that. And Cade Cunningham is playing phenomenally right now, and he is elevating the Detroit Pistons up to a level. And he's been the face of that, which is really cool to see considering he was the face of a lot of losing. And we're like, is Cade Cunningham actually legit? Do we really know if he's going to be good? And I do want to reward that over Jalen Brown, which would seem to be maybe an institutional pick at this point.
- [43:53]
Howard Beck
But you still put them both in.
- [43:55]
Logan Murdoch
I did.
- [43:56]
Howard Beck
Okay. So do we have these? So we have the same seven, it sounds like, right?
- [44:00]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, we do have the same seven.
- [44:01]
Howard Beck
Yeah. So the only difference is that you wanted to kind of like elevate Cunningham on some level and you force fed him into the front court, which is fine.
- [44:08]
Logan Murdoch
And I force fed him into the front court as a wing but it's.
- [44:10]
Howard Beck
But the reserves are the reserve, so it's. It's ultimately kind of.
- [44:13]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, it's semantics at that point, but I do want to, like, make a distinction Jon Jalen Brown versus Dan Cunningham.
- [44:18]
Howard Beck
Yeah. And you're. And you're right about Jalen, but, like, you know, there are guys who reach a certain level. It's not just an institutional pick. It's kind of like a down year for Jaylen Brown is still better than, like, you know, 95% of the league. Right. Like, the dude is still having a great overall season. A little down on the shooting side, as you note, but he and Tatum still have the Celtics. You know, the weirdness of this month notwithstanding that that team is still on track and winning a ton of games. So who. Who was, like, a tough. Was there a tough cut for you in the East? Because I don't. I didn't really struggle with too much of this. There were guys I considered, but there was nobody that I was like, oh, I can't believe.
- [44:56]
Logan Murdoch
I can't. Lamelo Ball Howard. I didn't really have a problem on it.
- [45:00]
Howard Beck
Well, this. But this exercise just shows you why Lamelo, by. If. If we're not just taking into consideration, like, what the fans want to see or his entertainment value, it's. It's that hard to get him on there because there were, as we just went through it, like, Garland, Cunningham, Trey and Dame. Those are four. Four more guards that you just had to get on who were all, I think, more deserving. The other thing about Lamelo, which I didn't realize until I was, like, looking through all the stats again this morning, he's missed 12 out of 43 games. So, like, he'd played the fewest games of all the guys that you could have considered, too. And, like, I definitely, like, that's something I weigh in. Like, when we get to the West, I didn't. Like. I. One of my first cuts was John Morant. Same reason. Like, Jaws just hasn't played enough games. Lamello hasn't played enough games. So even before you get to anything else about stats, efficiency, whatever else, I think Lamello was an easy cut just because he hasn't played as many as.
- [45:55]
Logan Murdoch
What about. You know, I do think. What about if you were to just. Well, no, he. I couldn't say it. I was going to say Paolo, but he's missed so many games. So, like, I don't think too many games.
- [46:06]
Howard Beck
No, no, no. Paulo and Wagner, I didn't even consider.
- [46:09]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. I'm looking down the List just to see any. I don't. The. The Eastern Conference is pretty straightforward other than the.
- [46:17]
Howard Beck
And you know why was straightforward? Because Paolo and Wagner, in a normal year where they're not hurt are in the mix. Joel Embiida, normal years in the mix. Paul George would have. Should have been in the mix. Jimmy Butler should have been in the. Like, we've got all these guys. Like, if there's somebody I felt bad about cutting, maybe it was like I didn't get any of the Heat guys on here. Like, we were just praising the Heat earlier for how professional and, you know, they're still, like, playing hard. It's not a great year for Bam, but Tyler heroes having a career year couldn't fit either of them on. But I don't feel that bad about it. Again, it's an unofficial ballot anyway, so who cares?
- [46:50]
Logan Murdoch
Who, who are your Eastern. I mean, excuse me, who is your. Who are your Western Conference picks?
- [46:55]
Howard Beck
All right, so again, to review for the listeners on in the west, the starters are Shay Gilgis, Alexander and Steph Curry in the back court. Jokic LeBron and Kevin Durant in the front court. So for the reserves, three front court guys, I went Wembanyama, who had been on my ballot as a starter, my official ballot, Wembanyama, Anthony Davis and Demonta Sabonis were my three front court reserves. My two backcourt reserves, Ant Edwards and Kyrie. The second guard was hard, but I went Kyrie. Wild card spots Alperin Shangoon And Jaren Jackson Jr.
- [47:32]
Logan Murdoch
I picked was similar to that, obviously, in the front, in the back court, I picked Anthony Edwards. I think, like, whatever you want to say about his three pointers and all those things, he's playing, he's playing individually pretty well. And I don't buy into the notion necessarily that he has regressed as a player. I do think that his team around him has regressed. And that has a lot to do with, you know, the departure of Carl Towns. And, you know, I think there was a miscalculation on that point and including for myself, but I'm not in the front office. Right. I did think that, you know, maybe I, I did like the move in when it happened, but like, clearly it's, it's, it has blown up in their faces and they need to regroup. But I don't think that that has anything to do with Anthony Edwards because he is facing quadruple teams and is still getting, getting his shots off and is still getting his points. So I pick Anthony Edwards for the backcourt this Might surprise you. I mean, I picked well for the backcourt. I was going back and forth on this, but for my backcourt, I put James Harden in there. And the reason why I put. I put James Harden in there for the simple fact that, like, I think this was a very much of a redemption season for James Harden. He's playing really well. I don't think that he gets enough credit for how good the Clippers have been. I know Norton Powell gets a lot of that credit right now, and I've seen on some people's ballots that he is some people's backcourt guy. I don't necessarily have a problem with that. But I think James Harden, I think reputationally, I think we expected something different from him. But what is he, 35 years old, still leading a team with all the uncertainty? And I think a lot of that also has to do with Tyloo being the great coach that he is. But I think James Harden should be rewarded for the fact that he has been the face of a team that is exceeding expectations. Now, the playoffs are another deal, but we're not talking about that right now. So James Harden is my backcourt, my other backcourt aside from Anthony Edwards, obviously Victor Womenyama is. Is in there. I would have had him as a starter. We talked about the politics of it. I wish we could have talked about that more with Raja, but it just didn't have enough time. But Victor Womanyama is a front court guy. Anthony Davis, did you see his performance yesterday against Charlotte? It was incredible. It was his annual winter. I'm just going to be Wilt Chamberlain for a night. He had 43 and 23 just to remind people of who he is. So Anthony Edward, I mean, Anthony Davis is also in my front court. Another guy that I think is going to be there, that should be there on my front court that I just wanted to put in there. Jalen Williams, we talked about him earlier in the pod, but I think. I think that he is far and away one of the best guys. And I think because Shea is so good, even still doesn't get as much notoriety as I think he should. He's a bonafide dude. So put Jalen Williams in there. Wild card.
- [50:33]
Howard Beck
This is.
- [50:34]
Logan Murdoch
This is tough.
- [50:35]
Howard Beck
This is tough.
- [50:38]
Logan Murdoch
I think I'll put Kyrie in there just for what he's been able to do.
- [50:43]
Howard Beck
He's keeping them afloat. Like the Mavericks have a winning record and Luke hasn't played in a month.
- [50:47]
Logan Murdoch
I got to put Kyrie in there. And one other thing, it's interesting Just like I will talk about this. The, the, The Jimmy Butler saga reminded me. It made me think about Kyrie a little bit. Just for the simple fact that they were kind of in the similar situations. I mean, you saw them in Brooklyn. He has completely changed his reputation in Dallas, but he was also a lot younger than Jimmy Butler. But so I put Kyrie in there as a reserve and. Or as a wild card. And what do you think about Shen Goon as a wild card?
- [51:24]
Howard Beck
I've got him on mine, so. Yeah, he was one of my seven reserves. Sengun and. And Jaren Jackson Jr. Were my last two in the wild card slots.
- [51:31]
Logan Murdoch
Okay. I think we. Aside from James Harden, I think we're on the same page, right?
- [51:36]
Howard Beck
I think so. Did you. Do you have Jaren Jackson Jr. As well, or. No.
- [51:40]
Logan Murdoch
No, I don't.
- [51:41]
Howard Beck
No. All right, so you have, you have Harden and Jalen Williams.
- [51:45]
Logan Murdoch
Edwards, Harden. Yeah.
- [51:49]
Howard Beck
The difference is you have Jalen. You have Jalen Williams and Harden, where I have Sabonis and Jaren Jackson Jr.
- [51:56]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, we're not mad at those lists. That's fine.
- [51:59]
Howard Beck
Yeah, that works. And, and I, like, I seriously considered Harden, like every. Everything you. That you just said. And it's funny that, like, because Norm Powell is having this breakout season, like, he's getting to the extent that there's some discussion of like, who an All Star should be from the Clippers, it's Powell. But like, like the Clippers aren't the Clippers that we're seeing. Like, they're not this competitive. Having gone most of the season without Kawhi. If not for James Harden scoring and playmaking and he's not as efficient as he once was. He doesn't score the volume he once did, but he's still way more effective than I think we expected at this stage of his career. And it's not just grading on a curve. Like he. I think he's legitimately All Star worthy. I didn't, I didn't squeeze him on here, but like, he was definitely worth considering.
- [52:43]
Logan Murdoch
It's a version of what he did is what he was used to be doing in Houston, Right. Where he would be this guy that is. Has the ball all the time with teammates that you. And elevating his teammates. The knock was never on. Harden was never his regular season play. In fact, he probably should have gotten one of those MVPs because of it. Right. And the problem was always the playoffs. So. And that still remains to be seen in LA right now. But as of right now, James Harden is doing what he got to do so I think he should be rewarded for that. So, you know, that's our, that's our list. That's our list.
- [53:19]
Howard Beck
I don't disagree. There we go. Yeah, people, people rage about it all you want because these are unofficial and they don't matter.
- [53:25]
Logan Murdoch
We talk so much stuff about Lamelo Ball and I posted Bell and he didn't end up on either one of our reserve lists.
- [53:32]
Howard Beck
I think people expected he wasn't going to end up on mine. If I'd even up on mine, that would have been weird.
- [53:37]
Logan Murdoch
Also, I wanted to do it from like a coach's standpoint because that's the people who are so like, if he was a starter, that is, that would have more input from a fan's perspective. But like on this time, coaches typically tend to be guy or people that are for the, for the good of the game type picks. And yeah, Lamelo is not a for good for the good of a game type pick.
- [54:00]
Howard Beck
So the coaches I like. I'll be shocked if the coaches put Lamelo on the reserves. Like if he's selected this week, I mean like anything could happen. But like, and not just. This is not just me sliding Lamelo. It's like it's partially his makeup as a player right now, partially where the Hornets are in the standings and partially just the fact that again, like Garland and Cade Cunningham are almost automatic. So there's your. Like, to me, that's the, that's the first two guards that the coaches are going to pick. And so now you're down to two wild card spots which could be guards or forwards. And there's just a ton of guys who are worthy, including a couple more guards that you and I both picked in Trae Young and Damian Lillard. So I think that's probably the way the coaches will go.
- [54:43]
Logan Murdoch
One other thing, and this is what I'll say like about Lamelo and we've. Me and Roger have talked about this with, with Zion, I was looking at the ages and Kate Cunningham and Lamello Ball are the same age right now. And which is, which is really interesting and why it's interesting is. And I'll go back to the conversation that me and Raja had a couple of years ago about Zion is when you get to a point as a player, you kind of become who you are and are you in. The question always remains when because you only have a certain amount of time to be a star player or be considered that or elevated to that role. And it feels like Lamelo, what it's been Injuries. But also we've kind of seen enough of a sample size that he doesn't elevate his teammates, whatever they are, or elevate his team to a point where they can at least, you know, make an attempt to be. Maybe if they were like consistently like a 47 win team and above expectations, then we could have a different conversation about Lamelo. But he's starting to get to a point where it's like he is who he is at this point. And that's what I think about with Cade, who is now ascending and Cade had those, had those, had the similar problems that Lamelo was having. But it's kind of changing with, with a different framework and maybe Lamelo will change with a different framework. But we're getting to the point. My point is, we're getting to the point where Lamelo is. Either he's going to be the, is who he is guy or he's going to start elevating his team at some point point. And he is now the, the former, not the latter.
- [56:20]
Howard Beck
He is only 23 and like, I, I think, you know, to give him some grace here, you know, there, there is the fact that yeah, he, he, he's played for a pretty crappy franchise that, that hasn't put enough talent around him. But you can't put it entirely on this round town like you're supposed to as the star player and especially as a point guard who has the ball in his hands all the time. You are supposed to make your teammates better. You are supposed to elevate guys. It doesn't mean you turn into a 50 win team overnight and that you can, you know, take a bunch of G leaguers and suddenly win, you know, 50 games. But like you've got enough talent around you that you should at least be winning in the mid-30s to at least low-40s or something, right? Like you're supposed to elevate guys at least a little bit. But he's only 23. And I think like when you get to like 26, 27, like we do get to a point with some guys in their careers where it's like that guy just is who he is. You know, Leopard's not changing his spots. That kind of stuff where you're just not expecting a guy's character or his place playing style or habits to change. I think Lamelo's still young enough that whether it's the Hornets just getting the right guys around him and him maturing a little bit, or maybe him getting moved to a different franchise with a different hashtag culture. I don't mean the heat. I just mean anywhere but going somewhere else where maybe things are a little more stable, where he's held accountable. Like there's, there's another version of Lamella. Like the dude is super talented and.
- [57:42]
Logan Murdoch
There'S a version of accountable his whole basketball career.
- [57:46]
Howard Beck
Well, that's, that's. And I think that's part of the issue. But there's a. I'm just saying, Logan, like, I don't think that the future is set for him. I'm not writing him off at age 23. I think there is a, there's a possibility within the next two, three years whether he's in Charlotte still and they've, they've put a better system or just infrastructure around him or whether he's somewhere else. There's a, there's a possibility of a better winning version of Lamelo still in there, potentially. I'm not, I'm not writing him off at 23.
- [58:16]
Logan Murdoch
Take that, Howard haters. We're gonna take a quick break and it's mailbag time.
- [58:25]
Cliff
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- [59:24]
Logan Murdoch
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- [60:53]
CJ Saucedo
What up, fellas? What up, what up, what up? First of all, Raja, man, you got shout out to my Birds, man. What's going on? I didn't hear no. I hear no love from you. Really? Start off the pie, bro.
- [61:01]
Raja Bell
Hey, I'm conflicted, man, because I'm a huge Chiefs fan, but I do rock with the birds. Yeah, I'm excited, man. My Philly family is excited. So, you know, I gotta ride with you guys, Cliff. But in. In like full disclosure, I rock with the Chiefs too.
- [61:13]
CJ Saucedo
There we go. All right, fair enough. All right, let's get through the first one. I'm only using this one because he said Cliff, please consider this dude is Orlando Johnson. Top of the morning, gents. So, like Cliff, I'm also a Philadelphia native, born in University City, currently reside in Glendale, Arizona. Local media in my town, apparently desperate to get rid of Bradley Bill, which is still surreal to me, especially since his sons, who've never won anything, have dismissed CP3 and seemingly look forward to do the same with Bradley Bill. I'm proposing a trade of Embiid for Bill and the Suns throw in a few of those first rounders they just picked up. Embiid helps Phoenix solve their nerc issue at center. The Sixers then get a pair of Bradley Bill with Maxey and pg. This would make Maxi number one option. Sixers can lean into their athleticism and play at a faster pace. I strongly believe this move makes us More competitive. And it begins the post Joel era.
- [62:00]
Logan Murdoch
What are your thoughts, Orlando? I really appreciate the question, but I don't. I don't think it's going to go the way you think on this. Answering this one, brother. Just from my face and Roger's face, you got a rare moment when all three of us agreed on something.
- [62:18]
Howard Beck
I actually, I. I actually, if I wanted to contort this, contort myself, just to find a way to make this make sense before dismissing it outright, I will say there are serious questions about whether Joel Embiid is ever going to be Joel Embiid again. And. And he did just sign a three year, $193 million extension that tops out at 69 million in 20. 28. 29. And Beal's contract ends two years sooner. So there's a. If you squint, you might be able to talk yourself into, like, cap relief and, like, starting a new era. But no, no, no, the Sixers are not. There's just not moving Joel Embiid for Bradley.
- [62:53]
CJ Saucedo
Is there any hope for the Sixers, man? Jesus, what's going on with that?
- [62:57]
Howard Beck
Just. Just concentrate on your ego's cliff there.
- [62:59]
CJ Saucedo
We just.
- [63:00]
Howard Beck
Happy times.
- [63:01]
CJ Saucedo
Happy times with the birds, baby. Fly was fly.
- [63:03]
Raja Bell
What?
- [63:04]
Logan Murdoch
What do you think? Raw?
- [63:06]
Raja Bell
Oh, man. O.J. i appreciate. We appreciate it, dude, for sure. But, like, I'm negative as far as. As far as hope for the Sixers. Like, it's directly. It's going to be a. Directly related to what Howard said. Like, what will Joel Embiid ever be Joel Embiid again? And I don't know the answer to that.
- [63:26]
Logan Murdoch
This. This trade would work if it was on 2k and you turn the injuries off. This would be amazing trade.
- [63:31]
Raja Bell
Awesome.
- [63:32]
Howard Beck
You turn injuries off, then the Sixers are keeping him.
- [63:35]
Logan Murdoch
I'm just. I'm trying to. I'm trying to shoot some bail for Mike for our. For our guy here. Okay. I'm trying to shoot some also. I don't believe Maxi. Like, if you put. Say, if you put Bradley Bill and you put Maxi into that number one slot, like, I'm not confident that Maxi is going to step into that role. And that's just me. I just. I don't know. I don't know. I haven't seen enough to. To. To. To make me believe that either. So on all fronts, I just think this is a bad deal for everybody. Everybody involved. No one likes this. Who says no? Everybody.
- [64:04]
CJ Saucedo
Next question is from CJ Saucedo. Hello, Logan, Raja and Howard. I'm a huge fan of the Pod and you guys make my commute to work much more enjoyable. My question concerns pride in your home team. I'm a Miami boy. Shout out 305 Raja who is going to see all three major Miami sports teams, he, Dolphins and Marlins within the last year and a half in person at the respective stadiums. While not every game was great, seeing the Dolphins get blown out, Monday Night Football without TUA stung Miami. The Marlins are horrible. It still made me feel a real sense of pride in my city and my respective teams. I know you guys are usually a little bit more objective and divorced from fandom in sports, but is there a specific moment or game that made you guys feel something? Whether it's watching a team you love in person or on tv? I'm curious to hear you guys stories. Thanks for always being real ones.
- [64:49]
Raja Bell
Cj, Dali, cj.
- [64:52]
Logan Murdoch
This shit gonna make me have a thug to you.
- [64:59]
Raja Bell
I. I'll go first since it's a 305 question. I can't remember what year it was, but it was a young me in the Orange Bowl. Florida State kicked it to Tamarack van over, I think to open the game. And he took it back. He housed the opening kickoff and all the air was sucked out of the Orange bowl, like opening kickoff. This was an ABC, like noon game. It was like 100 degrees out. This thing was packed, this rickety ass stadium. And we were in there acting a fool and all the air sucked out immediately. And the Canes just went about like systematically dismantling the Florida State Seminoles. I think, I think I'm right, guys. I think I'm right because there's so many Florida State Miami games. But we, we won that damn game. And it was, it was magical. The other one was the Brock Berlin Hurricane game. Brock Berlin was a former Florida Gator, came down to play for the Canes. We were in there acting a fool again and the Canes were down. Like Brock Berlin was terrible in the first half. We were down, I don't know, 20 some in the fourth quarter. I walked out of this shit. I walked out and in the cab on the way home, Cindy and I were like, wait a minute, like I'm. We're listening to 560 WQAM and Brock Berlin throwing touchdowns. We doubled that shit back, came back, came back. We couldn't get back in. But we partied in the parking lot after the game was over.
- [66:30]
Howard Beck
This is like, this is like Heat fans that one year in the finals when they all left.
- [66:34]
Raja Bell
That's how we opened the doors. That's how we Do Howard.
- [66:37]
Logan Murdoch
If you're sticking up to Joy, we ain't got to be there to see it.
- [66:40]
Raja Bell
So those are my two. Those are my two.
- [66:42]
Logan Murdoch
I'm curious. Yeah, that's fire Howard. That's fire. Fired Raja. That is fire Howard. I'm really curious to hear your thing, because you. For everybody that doesn't know Howard, he is very anti, like, fan at this point. I am not a person that does fandom, and I am a.
- [67:00]
Howard Beck
No, that's a fan. I meant I. Being a fan.
- [67:04]
Logan Murdoch
Okay. So kind of like when you were a fan at one point in time. I'm curious to see what the story is like of Howard. Just, like, screaming and yelling, like, yeah.
- [67:12]
Howard Beck
Dude, you're gonna hate this. You're. You're just like. Just like, brace yourself, Logan. You're gonna hate this because it involves the 49ers, and you're a Raider guy. There we go. There we go. He's already pissed off. Oh, just put on the Raider hat. No, listen, like, nobody gets into this business. You don't become a sports writer for your career without having been a fan first. And I think you'll find various results. Right. Like, I do have friends in this business who are around my age who have held onto their fandom, but. But if they're covering the NBA, they've held on to, like, their Yankee fandom, or they've held on to their, like, their Dolphins fandom or whatever, but they're. But, like, you can't cover this. I shouldn't say you can't. We live in different times. There are a lot of people covering the sport now who still consider themselves or still are fans. I believe in being divorced from that. I absolutely do. And it also just happened naturally. I didn't just wake up one day and decide I'm cutting it off. It's like, it just. The fandom part of it. My emotional attachment to teams just died long ago.
- [68:10]
Logan Murdoch
And when you were growing up, the warriors were ass.
- [68:12]
Howard Beck
So, you know, and the Warriors. Yeah, exactly. So I grew up in San Jose in the 70s and 80s. The warriors were way down the list. Raiders, Niners, Giants, A's all ahead of them in terms of interest, fandom, people wearing jerseys, whatever. So it's. But it's the Niners. Like, I can trace my. My entire career back to the catch. Capital T, capital C on the catch. Go look it up on YouTube, kids, if you don't know what I'm talking about. Joe Montana to Dwight Clark. 1982 NFC championship game against the Dallas Cowboys. That's like my origin story moment, right? Like, that's. I'm at a party with a bunch of friends. Like a watch party, right? We're watching the NFC championship game. I'm 13 years old. Do the math. And Montana to Clark, like, that's it. Like, sparks are going off in my brain. Like, this is like, the moment where, like, just being like a casual sports fan turned into, like, insanity. And, you know, I grew up in San Jose. The San Jose Mercury News is on my. On our table every morning. I'm devouring the sports section because of the Niners. I'm devouring now the newspaper becoming, like, eventually my path to becoming a journalist, period. My interest in newspapers. It's all because of the Catch. It's all because of Montana to Clark. And that season they win the Super Bowl. The first of five. And that was it, man. The 80s were like, the Niners were my team. They were a dynasty. And to the extent that I could still relate to fans now, and yes, I'm pretty distanced from it. Like, I know, like, the high highs and the low lows. Like Jim Burt knocking Joe Montana out, like, out cold in. I think it was NFC championship game in, like, 91. Like. Like, there were some moments, man, that, like, just absolutely crushed me, crushed my soul. Like, and I'm glad I don't deal with that anymore. I'm glad I don't have, like, I get, like, oh, you're not a fan. You don't get the high highs. I'm glad I don't have the low lows or the being pissed off and throwing shit at the TV and then like, walking out on a Sunday afternoon and being like, all pissed off the rest of the day. I don't have that anymore. It's fine. I'm good with it. But yeah, shout out to Joe Montana and Dwight Clark. Rest in peace, Dwight Clark.
- [70:19]
Logan Murdoch
Rest in peace, Dwight Clark. I remember my, my. My family. I had cousins that lived in, in Bayview around that time, where they still live in Bayview. But they were at the catch game and they talk about it all the time and it's been tough.
- [70:34]
Howard Beck
Can I add one real quick thing, one quick little, like, sentimental note?
- [70:38]
Logan Murdoch
Okay.
- [70:40]
Howard Beck
I got to. I got to cover a couple of Niner games when I was working for the Davis Enterprise. Tiny ass, small town daily. That where I started my career. Shout out to the Davis Enterprise. I got to cover a few Niner games and the last one that I got to cover, and I knew it might be a long time, if ever, that I'd be back there at Candlestick where they were still playing. When I walked to the media parking lot, I made sure to walk through the back end of the end zone where Dwight Clark caught that pass.
- [71:05]
Raja Bell
Hey, yo.
- [71:06]
Howard Beck
That was just, like, my little moment.
- [71:08]
Logan Murdoch
So, anyway, no doubt. What's up? Mine is the 2003 AFC Championship game at the Oakland Coliseum. The last time the Raiders won a playoff game in Oakland, when they went to the super bowl, it was popping. It was so. I just remember it being so cold. I was 8 years old, and I was. Or no, I think. No, I was nine years old, and I remember it being so cold. Me and my mom went and we went from Richmond to Oakland and it was freezing, and the Raiders went to the super bowl or were on their way to the super bowl, and I got to see it, and I think it was something that I took for granted. So back to your first question. Like, to my man, I forgot your name, but A.J. right. All right. To C.J. i would just say that to say, like, it don't matter if your team sucks or not, honestly, as long as they're there. Because my teams aren't there anymore. I don't have that. You know, I gotta. I gotta, like, see Howard's Niners, like, flourish all the time. You know, I don't got really, like, an attachment, you know, it sucks, so. And I wish I did. That's why I still like the Raiders, because, like, it's the only real, like, attachment that I have and to my city. So. Yeah. Appreciate it. Anyways, hate to leave on a somber note, but that's been another edition of Real ones, huh? Tuesday vibes.
- [72:30]
Raja Bell
Way to bring it home.
- [72:31]
Logan Murdoch
You know, the Vibes. We'll see you guys on Friday. Friday vibes. Me and Raja, all the shits. We will talk to you really soon. Bye.
- [72:50]
Raja Bell
Must be 21 plus and President's elect states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-89-7-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit MD gambling help.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.