Howard Beck (2:28)

He didn't eject me or anything at least. So, you know, he did scowl at me. But that's just, you know, standard fare for Scott that he's just always scowling. We got a fun show today. Raja and I are going to hit a couple quick news items here and then in about 20 minutes or so, we will be joined by longtime veteran agent Todd Ramasar. Todd, longtime agent in the business, president and CEO of Life Sports Agency. His clients include Pascal Siakam and Andrew Nemhard of the Pacers, two very important Pacers, I will add. Kavon Looney, Eric Gordon. He repped Baron Davis back in the day. He played at UCLA back in the day. And he also represents a name that you may not be familiar with. Thierry Darlin, who he just made history of sorts. He's going to be or is now the first player to go from the G League. Started with the G League Ignite. Now defunct. He went from the G League to the ncaa. Never happened before playing at Santa Clara University. And there's a whole bunch of interesting layers to that. So we'll talk to Todd about that, about how Nil is changing the landscape, and we'll, we'll hit him with a couple of other NBA issues as well. But Raja, let's start here. Our long national nightmare is over. We no longer have to read about why Jonathan Kuminga isn't signed, what the parameters of the deal might be that he wants, that the warriors want, that his agent wants. His agent can stop with the media tour. Um, it's over two years, 48 and a half million, but it's a team option in the second year. It looks to me like the warriors effectively won this. Like they did increase the dollars from earlier in the summer over the course of that. But they wanted a short term deal with a. With team control, a team option because of course they would prefer to trade him at some point. He hasn't been a great fit. It's not a knock on his talent, but it hasn't been the right fit with Steph and Draymond and now Jimmy Butler. His agent wanted more years of money, wanted a player option. They didn't get it. So here we are, he's in camp. We'll see how that all plays out. The warriors wanted to, their, their, I mean, their ultimate goal was a tradable contract. They got it. And now the biggest question becomes when and where does he get traded? He'll be eligible to be Traded on the. On January 15, trade deadline in mid February. What'd you think when you saw that this had finally been resolved? What do you think the implications are now for Jonathan Kaminga in what may remain of his career with the Warriors?

Raja Bell (4:57)

Yeah, I mean, I don't know how I felt when I saw it, what it means for Jonathan Kaminga. I don't. I don't know. I don't know. You know, clearly he's going to. Clearly he's going to get moved at some point. But what it means for him with Golden State this year, I find that very interesting. Like, are you going to stash him and do what you've done with him in the years past? Which in my estimation, like, I still say, for a guy that's got that level of athleticism and that level of burst, there's something that he should be able to give you more consistently in Golden State. Now, whether he's willing to do that or not, like, I'm not there, so I'll take their word for that. But I just look at the physical specimen that is him and the ability that he has and kind of their lack at times last year of overall athleticism, I thought he could have a little bit more of an impact. I'll just. I'll just say this from his perspective, because that's the only one I can really operate from. Clearly, you're disappointed and you've. I've been at, you know, negotiating tables and not gotten what I wanted to get out of it and still have to go in there and do my job and go to work. I owe it to, not only to the organization and my teammates, who are my brothers, but to myself. Because, you know, especially at this point in a young career, you're still developing. You're still trying to, you know, get better at whatever it is you're trying to get better at. And so taking days off, not being fully present, going in with a bad attitude, like, those aren't going to help your own cause, let alone that of the team of your teammates? And so I would just, you know, say to him, or if I were him, I would be an approaching. Approaching it like that. Like, look, I didn't win this battle, maybe I could still win the war. To do that, I got to be the best version of me every day. I got to control what I could control, which is how I. How I get in there, how I work, what kind of teammate I am, you know, how I develop, how I play. Given the opportunity, if it's there or not, if it's not, you know, to the best of my ability to be the best teammate that I can, so that they can't smear me in any way, shape, or form. Um, you know, so, like, those are the things that go through my head. I don't know if that's a great answer, Howard, but, yeah, no, I mean.

Howard Beck (7:09)

That all makes sense, but I think it's actually. This is kind of complicated, Raja. From my standpoint, in. In. In this regard, like, the easy thing would be like, hey, all right, just, you know, go out, play your butt off every day, work hard, be a good teammate. Okay, cool. Those are all the basics that you hope and expect from a young player, from any player. I'm sure it's what his teammates are telling him, what Stephan Draymond are telling him, what. What Steve Kerr may be telling him, what his agent's probably telling him. But what does that actually mean for a player who knows that this team really just wants to move him and. And fairly, he's better off being moved anyway. Like, if he had a normal market this summer, and if he weren't a restricted free agent, he probably would have already signed somewhere else. So does being the best version of yourself and. And getting yourself to the next place mean just be a good teammate, take your opportunities where they come? Or does it mean forcing the issue? Because getting your market value up and your trade value up, sometimes it translates to, well, I got to just get my shots up. I got to be really aggressive. And that can take you out of a team concept that can actually hurt your team. And so I think it's tricky for the warriors in the way they manage him. It's tricky for Jonathan Kaminga himself and all the other teams, at least the ones that have some, you know, passing interest in acquiring him are going to be watching, too, because if he's putting up 25 a night, but it's on low efficiency and looks like he's forcing the issue, the stats may. May actually go against him, where they're like, you know what? I don't know if this guy's a good fit for us. If you're a young team, if you're like, you know, the Kings had showed interest in him in the Bulls. If you're one of those kind of teams or the Hornets or somebody, maybe you look at him and say, like, you know what? We need a guy who doesn't mind going out and just, like, be being, like, the. The hub of an offense or really, like, it just depends on context. Right? But I'm just Saying I do think it's a little bit complicated or nuanced in terms of like, what is the right demeanor for him to have on the court with the warriors from now until whenever that day is that he gets traded?

Raja Bell (9:01)

Well, yeah, it definitely. Listen, it definitely is not going to be easy because, I mean, you know, he sees himself in one light as a player.

Howard Beck (9:09)

He wants to be an All Star. He sees himself as a future All Star.

Raja Bell (9:12)

Listen, I'm not mad at you. I'm not mad at you at all. And you know, whether or not I agree with whether you're ready to be that or not is neither here nor there. Golden State clearly doesn't see you fitting in for them like that. So, like, you believe you're that they don't think you're that for them. Therein lies the problem that you just described. Look, I'm trying to be a good dude. I'm trying to be a great teammate, but when I get on that damn court, I'm getting them. That's. That's the best way I could put it. Like, I'm not about to come out here and now I'm not going to be an asshole about that, but I'm certainly not passing up my opportunities. Like, if, if you're going to sit me, then you just go have to sit me for putting this ball in the basket. Because I'm not about to come out here and just be running up and down doing wind sprints. Like, I'm not about to lose at the negotiating table and lose on the court too. If I'm out there now, you know, like, there's a fine line there. Like, you're not trying to blow up the whole offense that is the Golden State Warriors. But I'm not about to be out there like just sacrificing everything I can do to be running up and down the court.

Howard Beck (10:21)

No, and I think if I were to try to like, you know, mind read the Warriors a little bit here, I think they would agree with all that. They wanted to be aggressive, but in context, right, we run a certain system and, you know, we still need you to play defense and we need you to set good screens and we want, we need all of that burst in athleticism and that above the rim play. We want you to be aggressive with the ball in your hands because you can do some things on, on the bounce, off the bounce as well. But don't break the offense, right? Don't become a black hole. Don't stall things out when we here at Golden State try to Practice the beautiful game where the ball and players are always moving, right? So it's, it's like. But that, that's the tricky thing, right? And that's why they have been hesitant to invest in him long term in the first place, is they haven't seen enough of finding that balance or, or being an intuitive player, which is what they value so much there. So it's interesting I, that that's a.

Raja Bell (11:15)

Real tough one, Howard. Like, I mean, first of all, let me just go back to what you said. Like, any player in a situation like this that is having a struggle to fit offensively, you can't then be a player that they have to ask to defend, play hard, set screen, you can't, you can't be both of those things. Like we can't do that, right? So like that's minimum. The stuff you talked about. That's, that's minimum. Get you on the court. NBA, professional basketball dog. Hey, we need a level of defense that's professional, a level of buy into doing the little things that can help us win games and all of that. When we put that with this, this, this, this six, eight, long, athletic, can score the ball kind of, you know, physical package. Now we could talk about what the upside is offensively and how you fit in and whether or not you are what we think you are and vice versa. But like the first part of the equation is you have, we got to trust you to do all of that stuff to get on the damn court, right? And, and if he's not taking care of that end, then, then there are bigger problems. Like, they're just bigger problems, right? Because you're not that level of player where, let's just be real, there are, there is a level of player that you can get to where they're, they're not going to hold you as accountable for some of that stuff as, as, as they would other players on the team. But like, offensively, you know, it's a very, very delicate and very delicate balance of, you know, how do I put this? I mean, you take like so me for instance, young player in the league, trying to figure out who I am bouncing from team to team being put in different kind of roles as an offensive player, right? I get to Utah and because the departure of John Stockton and Carl Malone and we're just young and it's me, Andre Karolenko, Carlos Arroyo, I mean, I mean we were just young. So like nobody was an All Star. Everybody had a chance to have the ball and you could to some degree experiment with like who you were going to be as a player offensively. Right. And I had started to find my way around handling the ball a little bit, playing a little bit of pick and roll, playing out of the mid post, like doing things like that. And it was good for me. Like, I kind of flourished offensively for the first time in my career. But that got me a nice contract from a really good team and that really good team and that nice contract made you ain't doing that shit no more. Like, you're getting in the corner, you're running to that spot and you're shooting the ball. And it was the best thing that happened to me in my career. I was never going to be good enough at the other things to sustain a career like that. So this put me in my lane. But the point is, for Kaminga, who goes to a team like Golden State that's already in win now mode with established stars and a style of play, it can be very, very difficult if you think you have the skill set that, that, that, that allows you to do more than that. And you've just got to sit there and wait, wait your turn when you don't really see the light at the end of the tunnel in terms of that turn coming.

Howard Beck (14:05)

Yeah.

Raja Bell (14:06)

Or if you put him on another team, he gets to kind of work through that. So I would say again, don't turn down any shots. Coaches aren't stupid like you can. You're never going to not be a black hole because that's who you are. Don't be a black hole as much. You'll get credit for that. Like you can. Coaches are dumb. Like, they'll still be like, jesus Christ, here he goes. But if you're not doing that nine times a game and it's down to four times a game, you'll get credit for that. Might keep you on the court a little bit. So you gotta, you know, like, you play and you play to be the best player you can be, but you also give a little bit in terms of, all right, man, I make some concessions, right? Like, I'll try to fit a little bit more. Maybe I'll never fit all the way, but a little bit more.

Howard Beck (14:48)

The good news is too, for Jonathan Kaminga, you got the money. At least now it's not all the money that you wanted, right? But you're getting paid 24 million or so this season. Like, you get the big payoff. You didn't have to take the qualifying offer, which would have been much less than that. So there's a little bit of Pressure off. And besides that, you have gotten to shine enough times that teams around the league can see what happens when you are the number one option or when you are super aggressive. So if they see you in that light or they think that you can be a key piece for a young rebuilding team that needs a guy like him, cool. They already know what you're worth. I think he can afford to, with the money in hand and with some, some of those performances already on the books, you can afford to like be a more judicious offensive player out there. Right. Not force the issue because teams could have already seen what you're capable of if you, you know, go, go to the full extent of your abilities. So I would, I would hope that like, that relaxes him a little and allows him to, to not try to force it. The Kaminga thing got me thinking. Raja too. And of course you like media days, opening a training camps. Like, you know, everybody's positive. It's like, it's, it's the best time. There's, you know, everybody's zero and zero, all that stuff, but everybody's great, everything's wonderful. But a couple things struck me over the last few days and so before we get to Todd Ramasar, I do want to throw these at you. I guess we'll call this the distraction meter. And where we are in the distraction meter with some of these. So we've got the Kaminga thing, right?

Raja Bell (16:04)

Yep.

Howard Beck (16:05)

Under contract now in camp, but he's trade bait, so potential distraction of a sort. Right. We've got Kevin Durant who says he intends to and expects to sign an extension with the Rockets, but he's an expired as of right now. He's an expiring free agent. $54 million at age 37 and he's eligible for, I think like 120 over two years. So he would be making like 60 million at age 38, 39. So there's that potential. They think until the contract signed, there's that potential distraction. Kawhi, of course, waved off questions about his no show deal. With aspiration and all the cap circumvention allegations and the investigation, he just like pretended nothing was happening at all. And then he, he chalked it all up to conspiracy theories and journalism. Come on, dude, the NBA's having an actual investigation. But okay, there's that distraction for the Clippers. Giannis had to be in by zoom because he got Covid. He was still in Greece, but by zoom. He did his press conference and he sort of confirmed the reports over the summer. That he was kind of, quote, unquote, looking around. But he's, you know, it was in the context of, I, I always want to win championships, so of course I'm always gonna look. Where's the best place to do that. So he kind of sort of confirmed, but not confirmed. The whole league is swarming, waiting for, you know, his free agency in 2027. Not that far away. If they stumble out of the gates again, like Miles Turner's only significant pickup, does the honest stuff pick up? So there's that potential distraction, and then we've got LeBron. LeBron was barely asked about the fact that he opted in and didn't get an extension, but what he was asked about it, he had a pretty terse response. He's a free agent next summer and has not given any indication definitively about what his plans are beyond this year. So There we go. LeBron, free agency, Kawhi, investigation, Giannis, who knows? Somewhere out in the future, not so distant future, maybe there's a change coming. Durant, free agency, Kaminga's trade bait. What strikes you as the most potentially distracting of these.

Raja Bell (18:06)

Yeah, potential. The most potentially distraction, I would say, is the Kawhi, because I, you know, because, look, the Katie situation is going to take care of itself. LeBron is playing basketball for the Lakers this year. The Kawhi situation, because of the investigation, ongoing and whatnot, could turn into anything. Who knows, right? Like, plus the slow drip of more.

Howard Beck (18:32)

Reports by Pablo Torre and his and his crew.

Todd Ramasar (18:34)

Right?

Howard Beck (18:35)

Like, yeah, so much more is coming out every week.

Raja Bell (18:36)

Who knows where it goes? And depending on where it goes, the NBA, you know, might be forced to. To. To react to that in a way that, like, extensions and LeBron playing in LA or whatever. Like, they, like, they're not. The NBA is not forced to do anything in regards to any of that. Right? So I think, ultimately, I think the potential for distraction would probably be the Kawhi thing for me.

Howard Beck (18:58)

Yeah. I do think it's like kind of this just cloud over them, right? Where no matter how well you're doing on the court, and they had a really great off season, right? They pick up Bradley Beal on the Chief, they get Chris Paul back. Kawhi has been relatively healthy, you know, in recent memory, at least.

Raja Bell (19:15)

Checks are cashing.

Howard Beck (19:17)

Yeah, checks are checks. Checks are actually coming and cashing it. He doesn't even have to plant any trees. He just has to put up, like, 25 points a night. Harden had a great year. Zubots, like, they've got a really great Roster, like, I, I think they could have a really good year, but this is hanging over. Kawhi is so indifferent to just about everything that I kind of think there is no distraction, at least for him personally, because it's just like, yeah, whatever, I'll, you know it.

Raja Bell (19:42)

Like, that's a good point.

Howard Beck (19:44)

The Clippers are the ones who are really on the hook. Because if the NBA want to throw the book at them, if they find them guilty of cap circumvention, that's lost picks and all suspensions for Ballmer and Lawrence Frank, possibly, like, it's, it's other stuff. Like, I don't think they're going to void Kawhi's contract, but that, that is a, you know, a theoretical possibility. So I don't, I, I feel like the Clippers, like, until the investigation comes to a conclusion and there's an announcement, which I'm my guess, and this is just a guess, I don't think we're seeing a conclusion to that law firm investigation until after the season. Like, the NBA is not going to disrupt the Clipper season or their own season with an announcement. They'll, they'll just, even if it's done, they'll just wait until like, you know, whenever the Clippers are out, I kind of think that the low key, potentially most distracting is Giannis. Cause I don't think the Bucks are that good.

Raja Bell (20:35)

Okay.

Howard Beck (20:36)

And I don't like, they're good enough. They're a playoff team, but they're not a contender. And he keeps just saying like his, his whole mantra has been, you know, the other day in past years, in pre, in off season interviews that he's done with the New York Times and a couple years ago, I want to win championships and I want to be where I can win championships. I don't think that that's Milwaukee right now as currently constructed. If he's patient enough, that may take care of itself. But if they struggle out of the gates and they're, you know, in a bad way in late December, do I think that the entire league is going to be knocking down the Bucs door, like prying, seeing if he's available? I don't know that he's going to ask out in the middle of a season, but I just think that any Bucs struggles are going to underscore the fact that he's a free agent in two years and has made it very, very clear that he wants to contend while he's still in his prime. So I think like, that one strikes me in LeBron, like, LeBron put on a nice happy face on media day. But like the statement from Rich Paul back in, in June when he picked up the option, we know we think that the Lakers still need to consider LeBron and not just the DeLuca timeline, like that's still lingering back there. LeBron's done a good job of putting on a good face, but I think those two to me are kind of the ones that I've got an eye on.

Raja Bell (21:47)

Yeah, well, Giannis, I mean, Giannis, I guess could go back to where St. John's is. That was it. Was it?

Howard Beck (21:54)

We'll get to that. We'll get to that in the later conversation that may or may not have been pre taped.

Raja Bell (22:01)

Yeah, no, I mean, I'm going to be fascinated. I'm going to just be fascinated with the whole. We said it when they, when they, you know, when the trade happened and the Lakers were clearly going to be Lucas team and it was going to be on Lucas timeline. That was always coming to a really fascinating place. How quickly we got there. Like, you know, what it looked like when we got there, who knew? But that was always something that I was looking forward to to see how that was going to be handled. You know, just. That's hard for any star level, NBA all star to handle when, when the, the balance of power shifts and there it's not working around you. But LeBron is that in times infinity, like the league has revolved around LeBron since he's been in the league. So it's going to be very, very interesting to see how they do it, see how LeBron handles it, like all of that.

Howard Beck (22:57)

There was also this interesting exchange on media day. I can't remember who asked the question, but it was about, hey, LeBron, how, you know, as you come down toward, you know, closer and closer to the end here and in the last year of your contract, like how big of an impact does playing alongside a player of Lucas caliber, right? Like top two, top three player, whatever in the world, perennial MVP candidate. Like how. What kind of impact does that have on how long you might want to play and obviously play for the Lakers. And LeBron said that Lucas presence has, quote, zero impact on that, that situation or that decision, which in one way you could just simply take as he's gonna go on his own timeline. Right? I'll play as long as I feel comfortable playing or as long as I'm motivated, as long as I, my health holds up, as long as I can play an elite level. Okay. Yeah. Luca has nothing to do with all those things. But Luca, the chance to play with him, especially in your twilight, extends your. Your ability to win championships potentially. I don't think the Lakers are a contender right now, but, hey, there's a theoretical possibility when you've got one of the best players on the planet. And the fact that LeBron did not put any stock in that premise when the question was posed to him. Again, I'm trying not to do too much reading between the lines, but that's not nothing.

Raja Bell (24:05)

Listen, that's not nothing. And I would. I would. Before I put an opinion on that, I'd like to actually see the clip. I'm reading facial, you know, expressions and body language and all of that when he says it. But, like, that's not nothing.

Howard Beck (24:19)

Yeah, there may be something. It may not be. I don't know.

Raja Bell (24:22)

Maybe I'd like to see the clip. I might go look for the clip. Because I'm telling you, like, you know, it doesn't matter how much money you've made. It doesn't matter know how long you've been the king or queen or whatever, when it's. When it's time to leave the throne. That is not easy. That is not an easy thing.

Howard Beck (24:42)

There's a version of this where LeBron could have said. Not saying should have, but could have said, listen, guys, you all know I'm in my 23rd, or whatever it is year over 40. I'm. I'm still playing at an incredibly high level. I am still one of the best players in the league. But the fact that I got a guy next to me who can do a lot of the same things that I do at elite level and is in his prime. I love that it takes a, you know, a lot off of me, means that. That I will be that much fresher in April, May and June. A place that he would like to be playing again. Like, he could have done this that way, and he. He didn't even go down that path. Anyway, I just think it's interesting for a guy who, you know, certainly tends to choose his words and his messaging carefully, so. And then there was this Bill Plaschke. The LA Times had this quick little anecdote from media day where LeBron's wrapping up his interview on the set with Spectrum Sportsnet. That's the Lakers local broadcast partner. And the host, Chris McGee, said, By the way, see you at next year's media day. And James was kind of LeBron James is kind of laughing, says, maybe.

Raja Bell (25:50)

I love it.

Howard Beck (25:50)

I can't wait again, May or May not mean anything, but it's fun. All right, we'll wrap up our opening segment right there. We have a really interesting conversation with Todd Ramasar coming up next, so stay tuned for that, and as promised, very pleased now to be joined by longtime NBA agent representative. Is that now the politically correct term? Todd Ramasar. Todd is an agent. Representative is there. I feel like there's a shift going on where, like, agents, like, somehow that's some. That's, like, pejorative now. Do we have to say representative?

Todd Ramasar (26:25)

It was always. It was always taboo to be known as an agent, you know, so representative is what I like to be called.

Howard Beck (26:33)

All right, that's fair. You do run an agency, so, you know, however people want to say it, that's fine. We're just happy to be joined. Happy to. Happy to see you. How things going? I haven't seen you since, I think, July.

Todd Ramasar (26:47)

Yeah, Summer league. Yeah, no, everything is going great. You know what time it is in terms of time of the year. So just making sure all the guys, you know, with media day earlier in the week, some guys are. Some clients are out of the country. Is obviously preseason is tipping off overseas, so just getting ready for an exciting. What I think will be an exciting season for a lot of my clients.

Howard Beck (27:11)

Yeah, no doubt. And offline here. We just had the first introduction of Todd and Raja. Somehow you got, like, you guys have overlapped. You're about the same age range, but never really actually intersected somehow in NBA circles. But you guys have some people in common, right? Raj, did you play with any of Todd's clients in the past or old teammates?

Raja Bell (27:31)

Well, clients, probably not. I mean, maybe, but teammates for sure. Earl Watson, Jerome Oiso, Matt Barnes. You know, I didn't play with Baron, but I know him well, so, yeah, for sure. It's. It's crazy that we have a cross, but, yeah, definitely.

Todd Ramasar (27:47)

Roger, I don't think I had any clients or former teammates as teammates of yours, right. During your run?

Raja Bell (27:53)

No, no, I don't think so.

Todd Ramasar (27:55)

I think that's a big reason why we never cross paths. Usually you run into someone at a game or post game.

Raja Bell (28:01)

Yeah, I'm surprised because I went to BDA for a hot second. Like, I think when I was with the Suns. Steve was obviously a big client of theirs, and so I thought maybe in that little corridor time. But, hey, nice to meet you either way.

Todd Ramasar (28:13)

Yeah, likewise.

Howard Beck (28:15)

So there's a lot for us to dive into here, Todd, but I do want to start with some news that you and your representation company made last Week. I want to make sure I pronounce your client's name correctly.

Todd Ramasar (28:31)

Terry, you're probably one of the few people that have pronounced it correctly.

Howard Beck (28:36)

I got a good. I got a good lesson real quick by. By your PR guy, Roven. Thierry Darlin, I guess. Darlin also correct.

Todd Ramasar (28:44)

Darlin. Correct.

Howard Beck (28:45)

Terry Darlin. First player to ever go from the G League. He was with the G League Ignite for a time and then just bouncing around the G League to the ncaa. I'm going to just like, like ask this just the. The most basic part of this, because for a lot of people, I think they probably haven't heard of Thierry. And what's the significance of going from the G League to the ncaa? This is obviously a product of the time we're in with nil. But who is Thierry? How did this come about? And what is the significance to you of him being the first ever to make that leap, going what in the past, we would have thought was backwards from the pros to college?

Todd Ramasar (29:21)

Yeah, you know, I think with the changing landscape in the ncaa, it's creating a lot of opportunity in what is otherwise a gray area. But Thierry has been a client of mine for about a year and a half now. He's originally from the Central African Republic, went to the NBA academies in Senegal before signing with the G League Ignite what would have been his freshman year in college or the first year out of high school. I signed him at the end of that year, and candidly, I always thought that he should have went to college because, you know, all of the players in the past that have come from the continent because there's so much talent, you know, Akeem Olajuwon, Dikembe Mutombo, Pascal Siakam, who's a client of mine, and Joel Embid, all of them went to the NBA via college. So for Thierry, he chose a different path, which was through the Ignite program, which didn't work out for him initially because he was coming off of a ankle injury. And when I signed him, I saw it as an opportunity in some ways to kind of rehabilitate his career because at one point he was projected a first round draft pick. So that first year out of the Ignite program, the NCAA landscape, in terms of bringing on players in his position that had played professionally, it wasn't quite the right timing. Fast forward to this past year, he tested the waters, and with, you know, Igor Demin, as well as some other European prospects that had played for professional clubs and were cleared for college, I thought it was the Ripe opportunity, even though it was about 50, 50 at the time that he would get admitted into college, is when we, when we embrace that opportunity of, of trying to get him admitted, which Santa Clara and I were working on that since earlier this year in March.

Raja Bell (31:33)

That, I mean, Howard, I don't know if you have a follow up. I have, I have so many. Like, that's so. It's such a groundbreaking and such a, such a shift in the position that, you know, the NCAA has always taken as it relates to if you've ever participated in anything that wasn't amateur athletics. What, what, where do I want to start? Like, do you, do you see more of this coming down the pipe? What was the actual language, legally, that you guys felt like someone could really sink their teeth into in a way that, that, that made them rule? And I mean, I'm sure people have tried to do it in the past, but what, what did you guys have going on that, that, that spoke to them?

Todd Ramasar (32:11)

Roger? It wasn't so much the, you know, the, the legalities or the language or bylaws at ncaa as much as the fact that, you know, players, as I mentioned last year that had played professionally in Europe were cleared and are playing now in college basketball. So for Thierry, his circumstances that were different was he played for the G league in the U.S. the other thing is, I. Yeah, and the other thing is, I think when people read it on the surface, I know Coach Patino, you know, was being facetious in some ways about Giannis. I don't know if you guys saw that comment. You know, is this going to lead to NBA players going into college? The reality, the reality is Thierry, when he played in the G League, did not sign an exhibit 10 or a two way contract. So he did not sign an NBA contract with an NBA team. The other thing is he was draft eligible still when he played for the Ignite, and he later played in the G League last season for the Portland Remix, as well as Delaware Bluecoats. So he still has remaining draft eligibility. So in some ways, looking at his circumstances and looking at it from some of his peers that were coming from Europe, it was very similar circumstances. The other thing, Raja, to answer your question, is the NCAA was reviewing these circumstances in this year, probably right around July I mentioned it was 50, 50, probably in March. By the time we got to July, it was about 9010 that he would be accepted to college. And the reason it changed so quickly is compliance at Santa Clara notified the coaching staff and myself that the NCAA was now not looking so much at compensation of these players and what they would maybe have to reimburse back to be cleared, but they were looking at how many years removed from high school that they actually were, and that would determine their eligibility. So if a player was two years removed from high school like Thierry was, then he would be a junior athletically and a freshman academically at whatever institution he was accepted into. And for, for me, Santa Clara was the perfect landing spot because they had recruited him out of the academy. Coach Sendak is a great coach. He's coached pros. Santa Clara is a great academic institution, and it was more of an intimate environment for Thierry where I felt he wouldn't be lost, opposed to going to a big four conference in a blue chip program.

Howard Beck (34:55)

Todd, what are you hoping that Thierry gets in terms of his, I guess, basketball education or maybe just his evolution as a young man trying to find his way, period, and eventually presumably back to the NBA? What are you hoping he. He gets out of being at Santa Clara that perhaps he did not get certainly at the the Ignite, which has now folded that. That program. I mean, I think we can all just say it. It was a failure. The NBA tried to do this thing. Hey, here's a way for high school students who don't want to go straight to college or don't want to have to go overseas. You can play in the G League with the Ignite. Scoot Henderson did it. Jonathan Kamingo, who we have discussed on this pod and we'll discuss again shortly, I think Jalen Green. But that program lasted only a couple of years and is gone overtime. Elite still going. Australia, I guess, is still out there as an option. Lamelo Ball, of course, did that. What did Thierry not get in the G League that you are hoping he's going to get out of being at Santa Clara?

Todd Ramasar (35:52)

Howard, you'll hear me say this a lot, and I say it for my clients and I clients in college. I say it to my young players in the NBA. Player development is human development. And for us that went to college, I could sit here, which I have for months, explaining to Thierry the opportunity that is college, of not only having the intimacy of having his peers that are around the same age group, or in his case, some of them are coming from francophone countries that he could relate to, but you're not 100% a professional yet. So for Thierry, he skipped that step. And I that first. The first day he was in class, I checked up on him. I sent him a text, and he's usually really diligent. About responding. And so I waited a day or two, and I texted him back a question mark, like, how was class? So he called me immediately. He's like, man, I have a newfound respect for college athletes. Because he's like, todd, I have no time. You know, I wake up, I eat, I go to class, I'm lifting, I'm on the court, and then a study hall, and then more studying and doing class assignments. And then I go to bed, and it's the same thing over again. And I tell. I tell all my young athletes, like, as much as I could be an advisor to them, experience is the best teacher. So for him, I said, terry, it's almost like you enlisted in the army and you skip boot camp, right? So what I hope for him to get out of this is not only being coached hard by and learning the fundamentals, even greater from Coach Sendak in his staff and Jason Ludwig there, who's a good friend. It's, you know, also learning a different style of basketball, too. You know, there's not quite the spacing that you get in the NBA or the G League that otherwise he's getting in college. And there's some other, I guess you could say, different rules or circumstances that if he could master that in college while having the experience he's had at the G League, it'll only prepare him that much more, assuming he has the opportunity to be drafted into the NBA. But beyond that, just on the human development side, just having that camaraderie, the relationships. I know, Raja, we were talking about college. You know, you meet, you have friendships that you have for life. I'm sure Howard is the same for you. I wanted that. Him to have that experience that otherwise he didn't have, you know, you know, coming out of the academies and playing in the G League.

Raja Bell (38:33)

Yeah, that. That's really interesting on a lot of levels. I don't know that I really have a question. Maybe I'll fumble my way into one. But, like, I, you know, you're right in that, you know, NBA relationships and the business that is the NBA or professional sports, it's really transactional. Now you do become a family, but even within that family, you know, that family dynamic is affected by transactions. So you may love guys and not wind up being, like, lifelong friends with them or, you know, breaking bread with them later in your lives because you've just been so many different places, and. And you've moved around with these families, and you're at a different stage in your life where those college relationships and that foundation, a Lot of times those tend to be ones that last a lifetime. Like, those are, those are guys that are, you're in your formative years. It's not as transactional. You're going through a lot of, a lot of the same stuff together. And that's a very interesting like thing because for guys that would skip that, theoretically that's a big miss. Especially when, when let's say hypothetically a career doesn't wind up being exactly what you thought it was going to be and you're not set for life. That college foundation is critical as far as on the court. I do think there's something to like, if you can play in college basketball and you are a pro level talent, you're going to be fine when you get to the pros, you know what I mean? Like, but there's so much that goes into strategically the college game because you're allowed to do these things. They're not rules in place to prohibit, you know, loading the floor in the way and having to move these chess pieces around his own defense for like, there's just so many little nuances in college that you won't get exposed to all the time in college that it kind of rounds you out. If you're a pro, you're gonna be a pro, fine to put you on a pro court, open up the floor and there you go, right? But if you can navigate college like, that's an interesting way to kind of look at it.

Todd Ramasar (40:14)

And Raja, I'll add to that point too. I think the NBA game the last few years is really changing. We saw it as we saw it in the finals with the Pacers and okc and it's all about ball movement, transition ball movement and in spacing. And if you're a young player that hasn't really been coached or experienced that ball movement like you have in college, I think to a certain degree it could, in some circumstances it could work against you. The other thing I'll add to what you said to Raja because they're, they're all great points is Terry's an international player. Even as I was talking to NBA executives, I said, can you imagine if you took, you know, Dylan Harper or Cooper flag out of their senior year of high school and assume they had a serious injury and you sent them to Spain in the ACB with a Spanish speaking coaching staff, Spanish, Spanish speaking teammates and oh, by the way, you don't speak Spanish, I don't think. And the last caveat is your family is not there with you to support you. That was Thierry's circumstances coming to the US And I don't say that as an excuse, as much as those factors matter in terms of a player's development and their comfortability off the court impacts their comfortability on the court. So those were all the factors, as I analyzed the situation, that. That played a major part in exploring this opportunity for him to go to college and attend a institution like Santa Clara. That worked out well.

Raja Bell (41:56)

I'll tell you from experience. Howard, real quick. Sorry. I was 23, 24 in that situation in the ACB, and it sucked.

Todd Ramasar (42:05)

Yeah.

Raja Bell (42:06)

No family. I mean, I could not imagine being 18, 19, going over there and having nobody with me, not speaking the language. I mean, it was beautiful, but I was just like, I didn't know what was going on.

Howard Beck (42:16)

How's your Spanish now, Roger?

Raja Bell (42:20)

No, I could. I could communicate, though. Like, I'm from. I'm from the Caribbean, so I have a little bit of Spanish. I could do that. But. But. But. I mean, that's even further is the point. Like, I could communicate, and I was still so lonely. So. So. So just like, fish out of water that I. And I had been through five years of college and a year in the pros.

Todd Ramasar (42:38)

And. Howard, it's not just the language, Barry. Culturally, too, if you don't have anyone. You know, I tell. I said this to Pascal when he was coming into the league, and a lot of my international guys, like, I have to teach you how to be American, you know, in a lot of ways, culturally and then. And not just from a cultural standpoint, from a professional in a business standpoint, so that they understand it sooner, because that's the biggest challenge, whether you're international or you're. You're born here in the US Or Canada, is you go from thinking team is team and family to being a professional to where it's business. You could be traded or waived at any given moment. And most players, that's the hardest thing for them to comprehend or get over. And then once they figure that part out, they typically find success, especially if they have great habits in place.

Howard Beck (43:32)

I want to take a slight step back, Todd, just to kind of the big picture of this moment. I don't think there was ever a time where we could have imagined that anybody would go pro, even the G League version of pro, and then be able to enroll in college and play in the ncaa. Right? This is new. This is, I would assume, without getting in the weeds about the NCAA rules and everything else, this is a byproduct of the NIL era. Correct? Me if I'm wrong in framing it that way, but I'm, I'm just wondering, like, is this, is this precedent setting on some level? Are we going to see more of this where if a guy chooses the professional route, overtime, elite G League, whatever it may be, they don't find their footing for whatever reason and still have their college eligibility? Is this a, is this a new path potentially, or kind of an alternate path where you hit the, you know, you hit a dead end and now it's like, you know what? I can still pursue this other thing that I thought I had passed up. Is this, is this the new reality?

Todd Ramasar (44:38)

So, you know, time will tell. Howard. When I embarked on this for Thierry, it wasn't about, you know, making history so much as much as giving a young man an opportunity and a platform, you know, to get a first class education and obviously more time or optionality to be drafted and play in the NBA, because as an international prospect, he would have been auto eligible this year in addition to trying to find, you know, he wasn't going back to the G League because the G League is not a platform that the NBA really scouts or, or gives a lot of credit to draft eligible players. So I had to find an opportunity for Thierry in which college was the best opportunity for that. I think in the immediate future, what, in even some of the phone calls I fielded from college coaches, you know, even talking to the G League, like a lot of players are exploring this now that either have similar circumstance or because it's a gray area to a certain degree, want to explore going back to college. But Howard, at the end of the day, when we look at nil and what a lot of these college athletes, and great for them, student athletes are getting compensated outside of their scholarship. What's the difference, right? They're, they're professionals in college. Everyone, you know, everyone is trying to say, or I would, I would say the NCAA is skating around, you know, them being called employees. But at the end of the day, what's the difference, right? A lot of these players in college, and some of them happen to be clients, are getting compensated much more than their European counterparts at the same age, and they're signing contracts. So I know it's a lot of nuance or language in those contracts as skates around the idea that their employees, especially for international prospects that are on student visas. But that's, that's the reality. I think what that brings is we're just going to continue to see the NCAA evolve, you know, over time, to what degree like what is it evolving into or what's the end point? I think time will tell, but if I had to guess, at some point they'll be considered employees of the university or some type of hybrid where of course they still have an opportunity to get a first class education while still being employees of that institution and compensated for their sport.

Raja Bell (47:21)

Yeah, I think, I mean, look, Todd, I got a son that's about to go away to school and I would tend to agree with you. I mean, my wife and I have this conversation all the time. She was a high level college athlete as well. Like this reality is completely different than ours. These kids are pros. Like, we can, we just call it what it is.

Todd Ramasar (47:39)

Right.

Raja Bell (47:40)

We still believe in, you know, education first and you're going there to get that degree if you're there long enough. But, but they're pros. And you know, getting them to understand that they have to treat, you know, their career a little differently than we treated ours because of that, you know, is important. I'll take it a step further. I mean, because listen, the language in some of these contracts, like Howard, I mean, their incentives, there's there, you know, there's all kind of stuff in there that would look just like a pro contract if you laid them side by side. They might not technically have the same name, but it's the same damn thing. Like I've seen them and, and then secondly, like in basketball, weirdly, in a way that, like, I don't think football has the ability to do this. Like these kids are getting paid in high school, like big, big money to go to some of these programs and, and, and play on these Nike circuits or whatever, whatever, whatever circuit. Like, you know, I coach a lot of them and they're getting real bags in high school to go play. They're becoming pros in high school now.

Todd Ramasar (48:38)

Hey, Raja. But we know the reality. Even when we played NIL has just legalized a lot of the things that otherwise were happening under the table. And you know, NCAA college football, college football playoffs, ncaa, ncaa, March Madness is big business. And so it always has been. So now the athletes get to participate in that revenue, which candidly, I think is going to continue to grow in some ways. I don't know what's taken the NCAA so long to do this, because what I'm seeing is I think the NCAA product is going to get that much better because it's going to get a lot more potent with talent both from North America and, and internationally. And players are not going to make bad decisions in terms of foregoing their college eligibility to prematurely turn pro. Right. So we're going to go back to when basketball or when football in the 90s, you know, maybe 2000s, early 80s, where there was all this talent before players, especially in basketball, left. After one year or two years, you're going to see those players stay much longer because it's a better business decision for them. I think there's still some, you know, some kinks with the rules that need to be worked out both in favor of the student athlete and the colleges that could be done better. But what it's evolving into, I think overall is. Is really good for both sides.

Howard Beck (50:16)

This raises a couple of questions for me, Todd, just thinking about this where, you know, four, I don't know, four or five years ago, maybe a little less than that, players who had the talent to maybe be drafted but were not eligible yet for the NBA because the NBA still has the age rule. You got to be 19 and a year removed from high school. They're exploring all these different paths. Right. So G League ignite was a path for a while there. Overtime Elite, where the Thompson twins went is a path. Australia was a path for some guys. China, Italy, Brandon Jennings way back when. Right. And with nil, we are now seeing where. Okay, as you were just noting, like we may be back to, you know, the college game that we all grew up watching, which was all the elite talent is there. Right. They're not going anywhere else. And for a while it seemed like those other avenues were necessary. If you had the talent and you want to make money off your talent, you should be able to do that. The nc, you know, the NBA wasn't providing that avenue. Other things came in instead of. But now here we are, NIL is fully in play and we'll keep evolving. The ignite's already folded. I wonder if you have a, you know, I'm curious about this. Like, what is the future then for something like Overtime Elite. Are we. Are we going to, you know, never see another version of the Thompson twins playing there? Because NIL gives you the avenue. You needed the money plus the platform and besides that, to play off something else you brought up a minute ago that really, you know, threw my radar off. If the, if the NCAA is still the place where the most NBA scouts are hanging out to watch and they're not spending that much time watching G League draft eligible prospects and who knows how much time. I don't know how much time they're spending with Overtime Elite. I don't mean to cast Aspersions. But like, it just seems like there, there is a shift underway here where it's tilting very much back toward the ncaa. And I just wonder what the implications are for then for all these other avenues that had started to emerge a few years ago.

Todd Ramasar (52:16)

Oh, just like everything, just in terms of the creation of some of those opportunity next stars with MBL or as you pointed out, the G League ignite program and so forth, you know, they're going to have to adapt or like the G League ignite program go away because of this new environment that is NCAA over time elite is I think positioned uniquely because it's complementary to the ncaa. So you could still have the Thompson twins or other high level athletes go to ote, be compensated there under nil and then still go to college out of ote program. So I don't foresee them having as many issues as say potentially the MBL nexars program as it relates to North American prospects. They could still pull from Australia since it's Australia is producing a lot of high level talent out of high school. They may still want to go there to keep them, you know, on the continent and close to family. But as far as the opportunity, again that is NCAA and the compensation, you know, a prospective student athlete would be hard pressed to turn down the opportunities if they're a good enough talent to come here to the States, attend college, get a free education while getting compensated and still have the ability to transfer almost like free agency, at least where the rules currently stand, stand to be compensated even greater or to have an even greater platform in terms of visibility in college that could eventually lead to them being drafted in the NBA.

Raja Bell (54:06)

Todd, I wonder you spoke, you spoke about like you have some guys in college right now, so you navigate the NIL landscape obviously with the ruling, you know, that just came down the pipe, but do you have any experience with this new fifth year that they're, that seems to be kind of coming down the pipe next, right. Which is, you know, these guys lobbying to get their fifth year back. Are we, are we moving towards that model where guys will be able to hang out in college even longer and, and extend that like money making window for guys that won't be pros. Yeah.

Todd Ramasar (54:36)

So Raja, I can only go off of what I'm hearing probably similar to you. What I'm hearing is that all student athletes will have five years of college eligibility, which would include a medical red shirt, which would include whether they attended junior college before, before transferring to a four year institution. So that gives them five years to be compensated at a pretty great level at their age. And maybe what happens now too is we get away from seeing, you know, specific student athletes that are much older. And I don't know what the perfect age is for college, but I think we all know when we see, you know, a certain age in college sports that creates, you know, some could argue can create an unfair advantage because of the maturity of that student athlete in school. But again, those five years is what I'm hearing. Raja is coming down, what that means. We'll see. We'll see how that, how that impacts again, the college landscape in sports.

Howard Beck (55:49)

Some other stuff around the NBA. I want to hit Todd, but let me just close this particular topic with this just broader thought. So you've been doing this a long time, working as a player representative. Is how much is that, is that role changing or is your just your job changing, your relationship with players changing with regard to college players now? Right, because you had to. There was a distance you kind of had to keep back under. In, in the, under the old system and in the nil era, everything is more or less out in the open and guys can make money now above board. How is that changing your role as a player representative?

Todd Ramasar (56:29)

You know, in a lot of ways. Just that, Howard, that you explained the fact that we could interact more with college athletes or high school athletes. Going back to my earlier statement that player development is human development. Yeah. It's still awkward for me at times to talk to a 9th, 10th, or 11th grader because they're so young and you know what I never want to do. And Raj, I don't know if your son, he's playing football, right? Going to ut.

Raja Bell (57:00)

Yeah, that's my oldest, but my. Sorry, my middle boy, I have NBA agents that wouldn't ever represent me calling me about him. So, like, it's weird.

Todd Ramasar (57:11)

And that's the thing. It's weird for me because going back to, you know, my past self of being a student athlete, I wasn't ready at certain points as a teenager. And not to say I was that level of talent, but if I was, you know, you could almost hinder a young developing athlete by me reaching out to them because now all of a sudden, they might have thought that they've made it already and they haven't paid their dues yet. They're still in high school, have improved it on the, on the collegiate level, let alone the NBA level. So has it changed? That part has changed. What I'm doing in my model is to no different than my MBA clients. Look at the unique circumstances of the clients that I'm or prospective clients that I'm recruiting, that I eventually sign that have MBA aspirations. And we've gone through the diligence, due diligence, to say that their, they have that great potential of making it. But our development plan is unique to them, to where we're really guiding and advising their development on the court as well as off the court in educating them. Because what we're not trying to do is come in there in high school for a 10th or 11th grader and say, hey, there's going to be all these nil opportunities and this cash windfall for you in high school that otherwise distracts them from what their ultimate goal is. So for me, it's all about taking the model on the NBA level that has worked for our clients that are entering the NBA and now distilling that or taking that to student athletes in high school and our college athletes and only enhancing what they're doing already and supporting their families and really giving them an opportunity to be educated. So when it does come for them to be pros, and that is, that is the beauty about NIL and some of the rule changes, they're going to be that much more sophisticated because of the education and they're going to be accustomed to making a certain level of money to where in, in the past, that cash windfall happened once they were drafted. Because Howard, here's the thing. Every, every student athlete and their family, no different than the past before Nil. A lot of the student athletes still do value education while still having pro aspirations. And so those are. There's a specific type of client that we target because they're basketball players, like, that's their dream. So the money is not going to impact their way of thinking or their work ethic and so forth. I don't want to speak for Raja, but I'm sure that's the same in his household for his, his, his sons. And so there's a lot of families out there that still take advantage of the opportunity of going to college. Obviously, the opportunity of being compensated that will eventually lead to them being professionals in their sport when it's the right time, no doubt.

Howard Beck (60:21)

So I alluded earlier to Jonathan Kaminga, a product of the G League Ignite, the now defunct G League Ignite. Kaminga made news this week by finally signing with the Warriors. Todd, I'm gonna, I'll do this delicately because I know, you know, no one wants to talk about other people's clients or other people's practices or what they do. But I'm gonna throw this at you anyway because I'm curious if you have thoughts. Aaron Turner, representative for Jonathan Kaminga, recently, over the last couple of weeks, had gone on basically a media barnstorming tour. Radio, podcasts, TV in the Bay Area, did all kinds of stuff, basically laying out the argument for why Jonathan Kuminga was looking for the kind of deal in terms of years and dollars that he wanted, that he felt he was due. And I thought Aaron Turner, actually, to his credit, did a really nice job of laying it out from their perspective. And as a media member who does not care about how the negotiations play out, I actually really appreciated it because I thought it was very educational for all of us and for fans to kind of get a look behind the curtain. Usually when you see stories that say, here's what's going on in these negotiations. Sources said. All right, sources said the agent leaked something, maybe the team leaked something, maybe they both leaked something. You put, you cobble it all together, you write the story. That's what we do in our business. Right. But it's very rarely out in the open. Here's what we're trying to accomplish and why. And I do respect that Aaron Turner decided to do that. Just to explain it, whether that's negotiating through the media, quote, unquote, or whether that's simply educating fans, especially warriors fans, for why this player has not, you know, signed yet. All right, it was educational. I, I like, I appreciate that part of it. However, however, all along I could think was, man, what's Mike Dunleavy think? What's Joe Lacob think? Like, how. How's the. How are they responding to all this? What's. And I, I didn't reach out to them amid all this, but I could only imagine my friend Nick Friedel in the Athletic wrote after the Kuminga signing got final. Friedel wrote, quote, the decision by Aaron Turner to go on a media tour in recent weeks, while negotiating publicly in hopes of landing a better offer for Kaminga, irritated some within the organization. And of course, according to league sources, how risky, Todd, to. To. To go that kind of route. Have you. Have you done it that overtly before yourself? What. What are. What are just like the. The pros and cons of basically, like, you know, negotiating through the media, whether you're on the record or off?

Todd Ramasar (62:43)

Well, you. You said it best when you started. I don't want to comment too much specific to Aaron's negotiation tactics, but I, I do have an opinion. It's in the reason I don't want to comment is for the audience or to fans and whoever may be analyzing or looking at it from the outside looking in. It's exactly that. It's the outside looking in. There's so much that goes into a negotiation for any player, whether it's RFA or unrestricted free agency and so forth. I always tell my clients this, whether they're entering the NBA or veterans. Is the negotiation of your next contract starts either the moment you're drafted or the moment you sign your next deal. Right. The teams are taking notes. As an agent, there's conversations with the teams. I'm taking notes. And you know, as you. As you called me an agent earlier, Howard, the reason I call, I say I'm a representative, is agents are transact. Whenever you hear the term agent sounds transactional. And the reality is when you're negotiating on behalf of your client, it's not. It doesn't happen in a day or a week. Sometimes it's years or a month that lead to the transaction actually happening. So in the case of Kaminga and them going public. Yeah. Yes, it's risky. It's risky because you don't want to embarrass publicly your counterparts on the other side that you're negotiating with, because in some circumstances, you may end up doing a deal with them and your client has to go back to that same very team. Also, 29 other teams are looking at that negotiation publicly. And again, no one wants to be publicly embarrassed to where now it's emotionally charged negotiation in which the emotions could get the better of one side over the other and so forth. It could just. Instead of just sticking to, you know, what the circumstances are to get to a good deal, if you're the team. If you're the team, or if you're the agent for your client With. With emotions being charged now, it could end up being. Or it could end up being an outcome that could impact one side more than the other negatively, or in some cases, both sides. That's why I don't tend to do it. But it is a tool that can be used. It just has to be well thought out when you do use that tool in negotiations.

Raja Bell (65:39)

Very, very delicately.

Todd Ramasar (65:41)

Very, very delicately.

Raja Bell (65:45)

Todd, a question.

Howard Beck (65:45)

Well done.

Raja Bell (65:46)

Yeah, I had a question. I mean, I don't know if it's neither here nor there, but in today's landscape with athletes, their. Their voice, their social media platforms, their ability to get whatever message out there they want to get out there, I mean, we didn't necessarily have that the same way so that our representatives, to some degree, unless we were on a podium, could, could kind of control a narrative about us in a way or help us cultivate it in a way that we couldn't screw up. But just by getting on Twitter or know in somebody's podcast and saying the wrong thing. How much of your relationship with, with the guys that you have, how much, how much time do you spend with them about, hey, what, what they want to project? Are you, are you like, hey, just be yourself. Say whatever you want to say, we'll clean it up. And like, like, I'm just interested in that because, like, my older boy does have representation. He's with Wasserman Group. And we work, we work pretty hand in hand with them in terms of like, you know, he runs his socials and does his thing, but like, there's, there's a, there's a brand that's trying to be cultivated to some degree. Right. And that, that takes everybody on the team working together. So I'm just wondering how you guys do it.

Todd Ramasar (66:49)

Yeah. Perception is reality, Raja. Like, that's, that's why it's so important to, to understand what brand you want to project, which you, which you hope is organic to the athlete or in that case, your son. But we're very hands on with our clients in terms of their social media messaging, the times that they're posting, you know, what they're actually posting. For example, if our client is doing great and we've had a social media plan in place for the whole season, let's just say based on nationally televised games, big events, community events, and so forth, we could have our athletes post, which is great. And you're having a social media team, videographer, photographer, everything is, is, is planned and coordinated. But if our client isn't doing well on the court, that could be a problem in terms of the timing. Or if our client is doing great on the court and their team is losing, that is otherwise expected, that they're winning, or if they're posting at the wrong times, they're posting during a game. If their social media team is doing that, or a friend is, those are all things that we want to make sure our athletes are not doing right. And then depending on the conversations with our client in terms of what their interest is beyond the court, we always want to make sure that they keep the main thing, the main thing, which is this incredible opportunity of playing in the NBA or NCAA now and putting basketball in this case first or their sport, and then building everything around that, utilizing the platform that they have with their college team or in the NBA or with their MBA team to enhance those things, to build brand awareness. So it could go in any direction. Some of our clients are into fashion, all of them are big in community. We want to make sure that we highlight those things and again, enhance them from the platform that they have, which is the NBA and their play on the court and their team success.

Howard Beck (69:00)

I had one other Kuminga thought that I want to throw at both of you, just from your perspectives as representative, or as in Raj's case, like, if this were your teammate, right. Everybody believes that this, this deal, one year plus a team option is basically designed so that the warriors can trade Kaminga. Kaminga. He clearly would be better off elsewhere. I think he feels that, his representative feels that warriors feel that. But they needed him as a trade chip. Right. So this was, this is a contract of convenience, I think, for all parties. Everybody in the world knows this, including everybody in that locker room. So I'm curious, Raja, from your perspective, Todd, from your perspective, like, what if, if Todd, from your standpoint, what would you be counseling your client if he's in that situation where you knew, like, this is a short term arrangement. The trade's coming, it's just a matter of time. January 15th is when he'll be eligible to be traded. Trade deadlines in February, like, it's coming. But you still, he still has to, you know, play his best. Is his head going to mean it? Raja, that's where I wonder, from your perspective, like, you're going to come in. He's, he's in camp now, like, how, how committed is he mentally, emotionally? Everybody knows what, what the the ultimate end probably is here. And maybe it doesn't happen during the season, maybe it's next summer, but this is all set up to be temporary. And that being the case, like Roger, you maybe you start on this. But like, I'm, I am curious how each of you see that dynamic, because it's, it's a little unusual.

Raja Bell (70:24)

Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, you're a professional basketball player, so, like, you know, you got an opportunity to go out there and from his own, you know, Mouth, I've heard him talk about the player that he would like to be, that thinks that he can be, you're in the process of trying to become that. So, you know, regardless of the situation, contractually, like, that's what you have to be about. Right? And like, I always tried to live by this. I certainly try to teach my boys, you control what you can control. Like and what you could control is going into that building every day, making sure you're earning an honest wage. You're putting everything you have into that craft and becoming the guy you want to be. The rest of it's going to take care of itself. You play well, that's. That's going to help facilitate the trade. It's going to help get you where you want to go, like, so, I mean, kind of compartmentalizing a little bit and just saying, hey, man, I'm coming in here to be the best me, the best teammate, you know, the best asset on this team. Whether that becomes in an effort to win games or that's in a trade scenario, like, that's what I can control, and that's what I'm coming in here to do.

Howard Beck (71:24)

Todd?

Todd Ramasar (71:25)

No, I would echo what what Raja said is, is you have to focus on the things within your control. The other thing I'm looking at, assuming that was a client of mine in that position and scenario, is figuring out ways, like, really trying to analyze what are the things that could derail the things that we want. Right. That wasn't a contract that we wanted. Right. We probably wanted more years, greater guarantees. We may not have wanted to return back to Golden State. So what are the things that are going to prevent us from getting those things in the near future? So risk mitigation goes to injury. How can we mitigate the risk of injury? I would be focusing on that, going back to Raj's point of, you know, staying in control of the things that you're in control over, which is just that. And then I'm going to constantly be having conversations with the client throughout the season, because there's no guarantee that he's going to get minutes on the floor with this new contract. You know, there's. So, you know, that team wants to win, especially with Steph and Draymond and those guys on the back half of their career. And that's the expectation of the Golden State warriors in recent past. He hasn't received those consistent minutes. So keeping his head on straight, you know, or when I say head on straight, keeping him focused on his game, and when he does get the minutes that he's performing at a high level, when he's speaking to the media, that he's being a professional, you know, all the things that you think would lead to him getting traded or to 29 other teams really evaluating him there, you want to mitigate all those risks where otherwise those teams might be scared off. The more options you have on the table, the greater it's going to be for him whenever he is traded or whenever he hits free agency again or you never know, it could work out in Golden State. Certain sometimes situations change and all of a sudden, you know, he may want to stay there because a contract's being offered and he's finding success there.

Raja Bell (73:41)

Crazier things have happened.

Todd Ramasar (73:42)

Crazier things have happened.

Howard Beck (73:44)

Yeah. No, but it's going to be a fascinating situation to watch and to kind of monitor. Todd, we'll get you out of here in a minute. I did want to actually just ask you about two of your other clients because they not only play for the same team, the team that went to the finals out of the Eastern Conference last spring, but they're arguably, I think, actually indisputably the two most important Pacers right now. Pascal Siakam, the lone standing all Star with Tyrese Halliburton out rehabbing that Achilles, and Andrew Nemhard is the literal fill in for Tyrese. So a lot of I just, I would say pressure, scrutiny, whatever opportunity, however you want to frame it for you. Your two guys, what are those conversations been like? How are those guys feeling as camps open? I've already said I put my, my stake down a few weeks back on a previous podcast. I think the Pacers are going to overachieve because they always do. That's the way they're built. That's the personality of that team. Rick Carlisle is going to try to squeeze everything out of them. I won't be surprised. Off they exceed expectations, wherever those expectations may be. But what's the sense you're getting from. From Andrew Nemhardt and Pascal Siakam right now?

Todd Ramasar (74:56)

Both players are extremely confident. Howard, and I'm not saying this just as a representative, but even evaluating them and knowing both of those gentlemen intimately is they've won their winners. They've won at the highest level. If you look at Andrew, Andrew's always won from in high school, in college, going to a Final Four in championship game with Gonzaga. Pascal's won a title with Toronto. If we go back a year ago, no one expected the Pacers to be in the finals. I think everyone's anticipating that Tyrese is going to miss the whole season. But if you look at two of his teammates in Wiseman and Isaiah Jackson, both of them have returned to the floor under a year. Right. And we're even seeing that with Jason Tatum and getting back to court workout. So in the past, Achilles injury might have you out for a season or even longer, but it seems like with technology and that procedure, it's only gotten better in terms of players making a return. But for Pascal and Andrew, they're very confident. They understand that that's a big loss in terms of Tyrese not only going down with injury, but also the loss of Miles Turner. But because they have a good team and Chad Buchanan and Kevin Pritchard have done a good job, they're going to fortify some of those positions as best as possible by committee. And, and what Pascal and Andrew understand is they have to win enough to hopefully give themselves a chance of maybe Tyrese returning back this season. And even if he doesn't, just be steady throughout the season and get ready to go into next year's playoffs and make noise like they did this past year and you know, just do the best that they can. But they're not looking at this season as a season that is a, a season that they're just going to, let's just say, tank or, or just be content with whatever record they have. They're looking to win and do the best that they can coming off of the finals this year and obviously the year prior coming off the Eastern Conference finals.

Howard Beck (77:08)

Yeah. One thing we know about the Pacers as an organization, they do not tank. They, they're. They're allergic to it. And the one thing again we know about just the personality of that team and this even predates this group and predates Carlisle. Like the Pacers are just constantly overachieving, exceeding all of our expectations. That's just. There is just something about the way that they have drafted and acquired talent over the years. The kind of, of character that they get in that locker room. If you go year by year with their like over unders preseason and where they actually end up, I think they exceed more often than not. So I am not ruling out anything for them. It's a stretch to call them a contender still without Tyrese, of course, but I think they're still going to be super competitive and super fun to watch.

Todd Ramasar (77:53)

And how are young players become veteran players really quick in this, in this NBA? I say NBA seasons are like dog years. So everyone is saying, okay, there's a loss of Tyrese, there's a loss of Miles. But what about Ben Matheran? He's a year older and he has the experience of coming off of the Eastern Conference finals and NBA finals. Johnny Furfee is there, Jerus Walker, you know, you have all these players, Ben Shepard and Andrew's. You know, people may say he's a fill in for Tyrese, but he's actually going back to his natural position. He is a point guard that happened to be playing off the ball because of his defensive abilities paired with Tyrese. So, yes, they are big losses. But as you're pointing out, the Pacers tend to figure it out with their teams and their groups. And I think it gives an opportunity for some of the young guys to step up and fill in while Tyrese is down. And then he returns. And once he does return, that team should be even stronger from the experience they're gathering, whether it be Andrew or some of the other younger players that are going to be stepping up.

Howard Beck (79:03)

Yeah, can't wait to see it. Camps are all open preseason games coming soon. Todd Ramasar's clients out on the court everywhere, including at Santa Clara University. Now, Todd, this has been great, man. Thanks so much for joining us. Great to see you. Look forward to bumping into you in an arena somewhere sometime soon.

Todd Ramasar (79:21)

Oh yeah, I'm sure I'll see you soon. Howard, thanks for having me. Raja, thanks for having me as well. And great meeting and look forward to doing it again soon.

Howard Beck (79:31)

We will wrap up this episode of the Real Ones there. Thank you all for joining us. We will be back next week.