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The Ringer NBA Show
Kawhi Saga Continued, Adam Silver’s Highlight Comment, and Five Questions Heading Into NBA Training Camp!
01:22:13
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- [00:00]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Reads)
This episode is brought to you by Disney. Ares is coming only in theaters October 10th. When sophisticated AI soldiers arrive from the digital world to invade ours, one soldier, Ares, goes against his programming and starts to think for himself. I love when this happens. He might be the only thing that could save humanity. See Tron Ares in IMAX in 3D. Only in theaters October 10th. Get tickets now.
- [00:24]
Howard Beck
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- [01:31]
Michael Pina
Howard. We'll see after I get my clipper sticks off if that's your statement. Still holds, but continue.
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Howard Beck
I mean, we will be taking some risks. We are going to talk today about with training camp just days away, which is hard to believe, by the way. So the teams that are going overseas, we're five days away as we record on Thursday from training camps and everybody else a week after that. We have questions, questions just broadly, not about training camp in general, but we have some questions heading into training camps in the NBA season. We will cover that. But before that, you have been off of the microphone for a bit. You had a big move. Congratulations. Thank you. How's the unpacking coming?
- [02:11]
Michael Pina
It's ongoing. It's hellacious.
- [02:13]
Howard Beck
It's the worst thing you can do. It's the worst thing you can do in life is to move. No one should ever move. It's terrible. Glad you survived it so far. But I did an insane number of hours of Kawhi talk last week between Zaxpod and group chat. I have fired off, I think every Kawaii Clippers take I possibly have by now. I have a few other thoughts, but you have been moving slash one eye on this story, I think anything that has struck you along the way here? We had new revelations from Pablo Torre and his crew this morning. Where are you at on Kauai Gate?
- [02:54]
Michael Pina
I mean, for those who have been following my writing for the past however many years, know that I am a sad, tragic Clippers apologist. This has been a tough time for me personally, and I kind of have come out on the side that this is all a vast conspiracy to distract from the fact that the Clippers are going to win the NBA championship this season.
- [03:20]
Howard Beck
And there we go. We've just been canceled.
- [03:21]
Michael Pina
Thank you very much. It's been wonderful.
- [03:23]
Howard Beck
Everybody.
- [03:23]
Michael Pina
Listen. Enjoyed yourself. No, seriously, I kind of just think that they're in a lot of trouble and we'll see how the investigation goes. And I remain fascinated by the basketball team and how this impacts the basketball team, which I think will still be very good unless Kawhi's contract is voided and he can't play for them this season. Then I'll change my tune. But no, this is just a huge story, a fascinating story and one that will have ripple effects for quite some time throughout the league.
- [03:57]
Howard Beck
I think it probably will. It should. I'm still getting from and as recently as yesterday, talked to another longtime team exec type and he's not the first one to say this, but there is still an undercurrent of people in the league who are like, nothing's going to come of this, like nothing's going to happen. And there are various reasons and rationales for why some people believe that. This is a very cynical league. And I think, especially at the team level, people, people are either at one extreme or the other, which is either they have to throw the book at them and I think they will. There's no way they can get away with this. There's just no way they can. And then the other extreme is, no, no, no, they shouldn't probably get away with any of this. This is alarming. But nothing's going to come of it for various reasons, whether it's because the league likes Ballmer and values him too much as an owner or because of his wealth and his power or just, hey, it's easy to run off, relatively speaking, a Donald Sterling or a Robert Sarver. But you can't do that with an owner that everybody actually likes and values and has reinvigorated a big market franchise that was never invigorated to begin with. I don't know if you can reinvigorate. So he has a different value also, by the way, Just to be clear, I don't think anybody believes that he would be run off under whatever the worst case scenario is in terms of discipline. I don't think it's going to involve not owning the team. But even just having to penalize his team is something that I think some people in the league feel like is a step they don't think the NBA will take out of deference to him. I think that's a little oversimplified. I think it's a little too cynical for my taste. I'm just saying that that is a view that is held by some.
- [05:39]
Michael Pina
I think we'll see how much evidence or circumstantial evidence comes out. There's been quite a bit of it. It doesn't look good. And if you do not punish or you know, give, put legitimate consequence on these actions that are allegedly taken place based on everything that we've seen with Pablo's podcast, then I think it sense a dangerous precedent.
- [06:04]
Howard Beck
Yes.
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Michael Pina
Because who's going to stop the next team from doing what the Clippers have potentially done in terms of circumventing the salary cap and undermining the collective marketing agreement, which is a big deal.
- [06:18]
Howard Beck
Yeah, it is. And it's why I still believe that whatever the NBA finds, whether there is a so called smoking gun or not, whether there's a text that directly lays out or an email that directly lays out the if then of it all, then it's unavoidable at a certain point, if it remains where it is right now, which is a heaping of circumstantial evidence. It may be circumstantial, but it is like very compelling. It's a harder thing for the NBA to adjudicate because where's the bar? And only Adam Silver and you know, and his team can decide that. So I don't know. I will say this. You have been the eternal Clipper optimist. I can't possibly. I can't compete with it. I have never, on the competitive side of it, shared your optimism year to year.
- [07:06]
Michael Pina
But you will recall, smart man.
- [07:09]
Howard Beck
Let's not declare that too soon. You will recall that I have been like on my own little Clipper island of I think that the mere act of acquiring Kawhi Leonard and Paul George in tandem in July of 2019 was a win in itself. A win that supersedes anything that came after in a lot of ways, symbolically and also and I think even practically because up until that point, the best thing that had happened to the Clippers was Donald Sterling got forced out. Steve Ballmer bought them. Oh, and then Lob City also happened somewhere along the way. That was cool. That was fun. The Clippers were legit for a while and they had some real stars. But it wasn't until Kawhi and Paul George and Tandem chose them, as I have made the case over the years, that they became like a legitimate, big market, attractive destination kind of team. And that even if they never won a championship, even if they never made the Finals, even if they only won three playoff series during that time, it's still a win in that we would never see them the same way again. The image of them changed. Like this brand new sparkling arena. They're finally out from under the Lakers and the LA Kings or whatever in Staples Center. They've got their own place. From what I gather, or what I've heard. I've not seen it. Apparently the new practice facility is absolutely spectacular. Somebody the other day told me it's the best one in the league. And so all of that came in the wake of getting Paul George and Kawhi Leonard. Like, this was a huge moment for them. And up until now I've thought nothing can change that. Except now I'm kind of wondering if maybe this changes that. And I wonder. We are months away, folks. Do not expect anything to happen soon. I think it's going to be months, maybe the end of the season before we get the Wachtel Lipton report and a decision by the NBA and what to do about all of this and whatever new evidence comes up. But I am already wondering how this changes how we view Kauai, especially given how this has all been driven seemingly by Uncle Dennis. How do we view Kauhi? How do we view the Clippers? Does it change any of that? Like, I don't have an answer for that yet, Pina. I just. It's something. I'm playing with my own head as somebody who thought this era was a success even by just having these guys choose them. And does this now change how anybody views the Clippers, and especially free agents and their agents view the Clippers in the future? Will people still want them? Maybe they'll want them more for all I know. Hey, look at all the extra perks we can get illegally. I don't know. Sure.
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Michael Pina
I mean, time will tell with all of that. I don't think. I don't know. I don't think that the perception of Kawhi will change all that much because he's just this blank slate and you have your opinions of him you had them, you know, the proverbial you before all of this. And I doubt this will change anything. I do as well. I love Kawhi. I still do. I don't think he did anything morally wrong, you know, so. But I have a question for you. Do you think the investigation will resolve itself before the All Star break? Because I think that if this were. If more revelations were to come out, if this stuff were to trickle out in season, that sort of thing, I don't necessarily think that it would cause as much of a uproar because we have basketball games and there's a lot of other stuff happening right now. There's a vacuum to fill. But could that be a little bit of a cloud hanging over All Star Weekend? The fact that Ballmer is hosting it at his new arena? I mean, that's awkward. I mean, that's a great word for it.
- [10:48]
Howard Beck
Saturday of All Star Weekend is when Adam Silver does his All Star presser. We're going to be sitting there, all of us, gathered media in Los Angeles at the Intuit Dome in some press conference room with Adam up there in Steve Ballmer's building, while he's almost certainly still under investigation. No, I don't think it's gonna be resolved that quickly. I meant to look up. I have not. But all the previous Wachtel Lipton investigations, all previous MBA investigations by whichever law firms they've hired over the last 15 years for various matters, they never resolve that quickly. I think the bigger question might be how many different Pablo Torre finds out episodes on the Clippers happen between now and then and. And how much evidence piles up outside of that. Because there's the stuff that's being done by Pablo and other media outlets. And then there's the report that really matters the most, which is the one that the NBA does. Right. Like we are seeing some version of this. Right. We don't have the full picture. Most likely the league will have access to things that Pablo does not. Pablo can't subpoena the Clippers phone and text records and emails and everything. The NBA can demand all of that and certainly will through Wachtel Lipton. So I don't know. There may be 15 more revelations between now and then on the public record. But the report that matters most is the one the NBA has commissioned. And we just don't know when that's coming. No, I don't think it'll happen by All Star Weekend. I think the cloud is still hanging there and it's gonna be a really fun time. We're gonna have in that press conference.
- [12:20]
Michael Pina
So fast forward to that press conference. Your first question is Commissioner Silver, your thoughts on how the half court heave rules have improved the quality of the game, in particular all the highlights that it has spawned.
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Howard Beck
Because it's a highlight driven league.
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Michael Pina
It's a highlight driven league. You know, there's a real good connection there.
- [12:41]
Howard Beck
Look at synergy. That's phenomenal. I will just say I'm with Kevin Pelton here. Kevin Pelton on Blue sky this morning said this and I feel like this is what I've been thinking too. But shout out to Kevin Pelton for saying it. I think very well. He's saying there's something that's irked him about the overwrought, what he called the overwrought response to the comments about a highlight driven league. He says it never comes up that the idea of watching national games on a daily basis is a purely modern notion, which is true for those of us who are older. And I think I'm a little older than KP. But he said if you grew up in the 90s like many of us now covering the NBA did, you didn't fall in love with the league because you watched games every day. You had NBC doubleheaders, even local broadcast to see notes were not always accessible. He said Sonic's home games were on pay per view. He grew up in their market. So you watched highlights on SportsCenter.
- [13:29]
Michael Pina
You might bring that era back. That's just better for my mental health. Personally. I love the NBA so much. Love watching a lot of games. Two, three, every 24 hours probably for me. And yeah, two a week sounds just tremendous.
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Howard Beck
I mean, that's the thing. Because we live in an era of league pass and, and the ability to like, if you had time, you could watch all. How many? 1600. What is the number? Whatever 82 times 41 times 30, whatever that number is. Mathematicians help me out. You could watch them all if you wanted to, but that is not the norm. That is very much the last like 10 years of the NBA. And because we're a little bit spoiled by that, it does bring into play this whole thing of like, well, what's behind paywall? Not paywalls. What's behind subscription models and now streaming and cable and all this versus what's over the air. And where Adam really slipped up was that he should have emphasized how many more over the air games opening night. And I can't remember who pointed this out. Maybe, maybe KP did too. Opening night of the NBA season is going to be on over the air TV for the first time in a bajillion years because it's not on Turner and it's not on espn. It's on NBC. And so where Adam stepped in, it was that the question was more about affordability and accessibility for the average fan. And as he's trying to talk his way through why it's not as big of a concern, he says, and we're a highlight driven league and you can see all of that in a bunch of places in TikTok and YouTube and all this. And he's not wrong. It's just wrong to dismiss the question of affordability and accessibility by veering toward, you know, let them eat cake, let them eat highlights like that. I get why people were annoyed by that, but I don't think it's as big a deal as some people made it out.
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Michael Pina
You promised we wouldn't talk about the highlight driven mumbo jumbo.
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Howard Beck
We're done.
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Michael Pina
Can we get to the true camp questions?
- [15:19]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Reads)
This episode is brought to you by Paramount. Sylvester Stallone is back as the ultimate kingpin Dwight Manfredi in the original hit series Tulsa King, streaming September 21st exclusively on Paramount. This season, as Dwight's kingdom expands, he faces his most dangerous adversaries in Tulsa yet, forcing him to fight for everything he's built. Stream the new season of Tulsa King Sunday, September 21st, exclusively on Paramount plus learn more@ParamedPlus.com this episode is brought to you by Bleacher Report Football is back and downloading the Bleacher Report app puts you in the middle of the action. Make Bleacher Report your Go to this season for the fastest breaking news alerts covering NFL and college football. And don't miss a moment with highlights, scores and live reactions in the app. Get expert analysis on your favorite teams and the news that you want this season. Download the Bleacher Report app today. This episode is brought to you by NBA 2K26, a favor to my sons and me. All right, quick break. NBA 2K26 stacked this year. Gameplay new motion engine, smoother catch and shoot. The rhythm shooting is dialed in. My team added the W so now you can get Caitlin Clark pulling up from deep. Larry Bird talking trash mid game. Jokic casually dropping triple doubles. It's absurd in the best way. My career has a whole new storyline. The city's tighter and you're on the court way faster. I've been playing video basketball games. I think the first one was early 80s. I'm stunned like when I when I Go and my son's playing with his friends and I go in and I barge my moon and I start playing with them. I'm just amazed by how good, how detailed all the games are, how they really look like NBA players. 2K26 is finally here and yeah, it is out. Absolutely loaded. If you care about basketball even a little, you're checking it out today. Ball over everything.
- [17:08]
Howard Beck
We should.
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Michael Pina
Okay.
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Howard Beck
So training camps are opening soon. Our assignment for each other was five. I think you came up with four.
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Michael Pina
Because you know, you had me out there.
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Howard Beck
Geez Louise. I mean, the listeners can count. If we get to the end, they're keeping score at home, they're gonna go like, wow, beck had like 5, 6 and like peanut came up like, it's gonna. They would know.
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Michael Pina
That's fair.
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Howard Beck
You were moving and you've got two little ones at home. It's fine.
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Michael Pina
Yeah.
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Howard Beck
Not questions about training camp per se. Five questions we have about the NBA teams, players, coaches, schedules, whatever it may be as we head into the early pieces of the NBA season here, starting with training camp. So I'll throw it to you first. What is your first, like burning question as camps open up?
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Michael Pina
Sure. So I wrote about this today on theringer.com the question that I'm. I don't know if it's the number one question I'm most intrigued by, but one that really tickles my fancy right now. When will Lowry Markkanen get traded? And I say win because I feel like, and I don't know if you agree or disagree, this is inevitable that these two parties, the Lowry market and the Utah Jazz win, will separate at some point. It only makes sense. He's 28 years old. The Utah Jazz spent an entire off season going in reverse after losing a Lee or winning A League low 17 games last season. They got rid of John Collins, Collin Sexton for Yusuf Nurkic. Trade with a second round pick going out the door to Charlotte. That made absolutely no sense.
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Howard Beck
So clearly they, they lost Jordan Clarkson, which I know they gave Jordan Clarkson. It's like that's a huge blow to them.
- [18:54]
Michael Pina
Yes, exactly.
- [18:55]
Howard Beck
I know how much you love Jordan Clarkson.
- [18:56]
Michael Pina
He is an incredible player. So yeah, if you're Lowry Markkanen, someone who two years ago made an all star team, one most improved player, signed this massive contract that disallowed Utah from because of when it was signed. He wasn't allowed to be traded last year, has never appeared in a playoff game in his career. He's probably the best player in the league who can say that right now, including, like, Victor Wembanyama or someone like that. But I just think based on where he is and how frustrated he probably will be as this season goes along on a team that's going nowhere intentionally, he will either privately or publicly request a trade or. I mean, it would just behoove the Utah Jazz to move on and get what they can from him, because I think he is awesome. And there are reasons why trade negotiations could be a little bit difficult and maybe the Utah Jazz hold off until the off season when more teams have financial flexibility and that sort of thing. But I would look to trade him now if I was Utah, and there are a few teams around the league that I think should be very. I think every team should be interested in him. But it's a matter of, can you. Can you absorb that contract? Do you have the draft assets and young talent trade pieces that that will satisfy Utah. And so I think that the Venn diagram there is pretty narrow, but something needs to happen, and I think something will happen.
- [20:36]
Howard Beck
It's overdue.
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Michael Pina
Yeah.
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Howard Beck
I mean, it's overdue. Lowry Markkanen has been of no particular use to the Utah Jazz for at least the last couple of years. Like, ever since you really started to tear this thing down. And he had, you know, he had a great season for them in 20, 22, 23. That's the year he wins Most improved, makes the All Star team. But even then, it's pretty clear, like, this is not a guy you're building your team, your franchise around. Like, he's probably best as somebody's co star.
- [21:04]
Michael Pina
I think he's an ideal costar. Yes, I think he's a perfect costar. And so that kind of, you know, opens up the door to so many different fascinating trade partners.
- [21:15]
Howard Beck
He's 28. He's just early prime. In the most optimistic scenario, the Utah Jazz are good again in what, three years? Like, there's. There's not a scenario here. And I think this is why I say it's overdue. We are long past the point where you could talk yourself into, well, if we tear it down on the fly, but we've got marketing as one of our anchor pieces here, and we just start to rebuild around him. We're past that point. You're three years in now with him, and you're even further from competing at a respectable level than you were. It's just time. Like, his best value to the Jazz now is as a trade piece. So, yeah, where he ultimately lands, you did land somewhere in your piece. On the ringer.com today, where did you want to send Lowry Markkanen?
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Michael Pina
I thought this for quite some time. I posted on Blue sky that this was the story I was born to write. I think that Detroit Pistons should trade for Lauer Markkanen.
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Howard Beck
I like it.
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Michael Pina
I think it's a perfect, mutually beneficial situation. He is, as I just said, the ideal sidekick and I think he fits so perfectly with Cade Cunningham. I also think he fits with Asar Thompson and Jaylen Duran and whoever, Ron Holland, whoever else they want to keep and are able to keep left over after they make the trade. But just, you know, a seven footer who can shoot threes off the move, spotting up, pick and pop. He's an independent shot creator for himself. He can post up, he can isolate, he can take bigs off the dribble, he has great gravity, he loves moving off screens. He's just, he's, he's an awesome malleable player who fits in so many different systems and schemes. And he also has experience with J.B. bickerstaff, who was his coach in Cleveland and helped kind of turn his career around after he was traded there from the Chicago Bulls. So I think it's a wonderful place for him. I think that the Detroit Pistons are ready to take the next step and could have, should have defeated the New York Knicks in round one, one might say after watching that series, I think there's a very good team that's ascending. And so, you know, the trade proposal that I, that I wrote in my piece essentially is Jaden Ivey as the headliner. Tobias Harris expiring contract because he's the four right now in Detroit and a couple draft picks, a couple unprotected first round picks. And I think that that is fair on both sides. But Danny Ainge has never been one to make a deal based on fairness. I think that if anything was holding it up, it would be the Anges and their need to have a real high bar for what they get back from their ongoing player.
- [24:02]
Howard Beck
I think whether it's Detroit or wherever it's going to be, I think that is the main obstacle at this point. That and the fact that like since that big breakthrough season in Utah, it's been harder to judge Markkanen. Like there's, you know, he's been hurt or he's been hurt in quotes. He has been not quite as productive or as efficient and I don't think anybody should have any concerns. I think the second you put him in a competitive environment surrounded by real NBA talent, he's going to be right back to the player we saw at his peak. But I think the market sometimes can soften after a couple of lean years like that. So that's a possibility.
- [24:38]
Michael Pina
Can I throw two other teams out at you?
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Howard Beck
Oh yeah.
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Michael Pina
So this team I didn't write in depth on because I just didn't think it was serious. The Charlotte Hornets.
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Howard Beck
Why do you want to do that to Lowry, Mark? Do you hate Lowry, Mark? I thought you liked him. You were trying to save him a minute ago. Now you're like I think that he.
- [24:56]
Michael Pina
That would be really cool.
- [24:59]
Howard Beck
He'd love watching lamelo ball dribble 17 times before launching a 30 foot.
- [25:03]
Michael Pina
I would like to think as a glass half full human being for once that he would accentuate Lamelo. Give Lamelo space. Brandon. He would do wonders for Brandon Miller's development. Khan Knippel would be a great fit with him and they can all grow together as one and I think that they have enough. It's also just like they have enough draft picks and kind of interesting young players and you can throw like Miles Bridges contract and Pat Connaughton's contract and get something done there. The other one, one more team, the Memphis Grizzlies. So you have Zach Eady, Brandon Clark, KCP and three first round picks via the Orlando Magic from the Desmond Bain trade.
- [25:52]
Howard Beck
Right.
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Michael Pina
Does that tickle your fancy do you think? If you're Utah, is that enough?
- [25:59]
Howard Beck
I don't know. How many injured clunky seven footers do I need?
- [26:06]
Michael Pina
I just like it because Tuomas Isolo finish, Larry Markkanen finish connection.
- [26:13]
Howard Beck
Nice.
- [26:14]
Michael Pina
Yeah and it was just I just think like him and Jaren Jackson Jr. In a front court with Ja Jah's never really I mean that's two three point shooting bigs that you can kind of have there. And.
- [26:26]
Howard Beck
It'S intriguing. I mean even to be fair the Charlotte one is actually intriguing too. I like the thought process there. All of my Lamello jokes aside and they they need at some point soon I think because like I get it like the Hornets, it's new ownership and it's new front office ish and they're now kind of in a rebuild mode but like they are just as a franchise predating them they've been perpetual rebuild and at some point you have to pick a direction. So that's either find a way to supplement, compliment, help Lamelo right now because you still believe in him as your franchise anchor or if you don't that then it's time to move on from him and really start over and find a new North Star. And Markkanen, I think, is as good of a complimentary star there as might be available in the near term. At what point do you decide it's time to turn the corner? The east is really fluid. I'm not saying they'd be a contender, but it's really fluid from top to bottom. It would be a good time to maybe exit the bottom. My first big question and I'm just going to get this one out of the way early. I just have to. It will be the only time I mention this team or this name. Oh God, LeBron. Where is LeBron and his head and is he okay with the state of Lakerdom? Because we really haven't heard from him or Rich Paul or anyone else on his behalf, I think really since Rich Paul's statement on June 29, the day that he opted in, when it was a lot of passive aggressive, kind of like LeBron wants to win a championship and he's happy to be here and everything else. But the Lakers need to remember that we have, you know, he's got a timeline and it's shorter and this and that. What like all of this kind of like awkwardness about the fact that they are now on Lucas timeline building around him didn't make a lot of dramatic moves over the summer. With all due respect to deandre Ayton, there's just not a lot to move the needle. Are they really that much closer to contention? The best thing to happen to the, to the Lakers in the last five, six months is Luca getting in great shape. Other than that, I don't see that there's a lot to look at and say, well, this is what's moved the ball forward for them or why LeBron should feel more confident. That said, Lucas, Lucas, one of the top two, three players in the in the world. I don't know that LeBron, if he's anywhere else, is going to be able to improve on that unless he's playing with Jokic or Shea. But I do want to. I think it's important and like I say, I will dispense with this one quickly. People get fatigued of Lebron talk, but we have not heard from him. We don't know where his head is at. Is he happy with the state of things? Is he still frustrated with the state of things? Is he just waiting for other moves to be made? Will other Canada moves be made? Dan Wieke in the Athletic a week or so ago wrote about the fact that the Lakers might be a little more aggressive now that they're moving firmly into this Luka era and things are kind of more settled. They'd been a little reluctant to make big moves over the last couple of years. I don't know where things are there, but there certainly was a hell of a lot of discussion in July, and I think reasonably so, about, you know, is LeBron going to be happy here and how do you resolve that if he's not? Because trading his contract is nearly impossible. They're not waiving him, they're not buying him out. I think it's kind of important that he's on board with whatever the agenda is there now that it is a Luka driven franchise.
- [29:45]
Michael Pina
I would say short term, my expectation for LeBron and the Los Angeles Lakers is for him to spend the season with the Los Angeles Lakers, be really good, and then after the season ends, whether they go on a deep playoff run or not, he will part ways with the Los Angeles Lakers in some capacity. I mean, that's how I seem to. Yeah, I just don't see a trade. Probably isn't likely in season for a variety of reasons. You know, his son being on the team notwithstanding, just the difficulty of trading a $52 million contract in season with the CBA. And, you know, the more I think about the Lakers, the more optimistic I am about them. I'm not sure I would call them a contender necessarily, but at the same time, any team that has Luka on it, I want to just be like, you can win the championship. That's how I felt with the Dallas Mavericks. So to be fair to the Lakers, that's like, I don't know. I mean, they don't have enough shooting. They have DeAndre Ayton as their starting center. But if Marcus Smart looks like Marcus Smart, if Jake Laravia, who I really like, looks like he did like the sixth man of the year type of candidate all around Swiss army knife that he was on the Memphis Grizzlies before he went to Sacramento. If everyone, all the supplementary pieces are able to kind of stay healthy and hit shots, like, I, I think that this could be a very interesting team. And LeBron doesn't need to be the, you know, 40% usage rate, 35% usage rate player that he's been for so much of his career. And I think that Luka is magical. And I think whether he's in shape, whether he's not in shape, it's great that he's in shape. He looked wonderful at Eurobasket. He led all the entire field in points, which is in seven games, he scored more points than everybody else. And Lowry, Markkanen, we just talked about, played nine games, finished second in total points. Luka's awesome and I think he's one of you mentioned Jokic, Shai, you know, Giannis, whoever else you want to put in that category of I can single handedly take whatever is around me and just elevate it. And I've seen him in a playoff series. I just always think about him in those playoff series against the favored Clippers when he was in his first or second or third season or whatever, it was his first taste of the playoffs and he was unguardable. Like he was. The shots he was hitting, it was just incredible stuff. So Luca's. It's just doubting him is stupid. As reductive as I can be, that's doubting Luka is stupid. And I don't mean to make your LeBron question about Luka, but I think LeBron's responsibilities will be so lessened and his life will be as easy as it's ever been in the NBA.
- [32:55]
Howard Beck
And that's, you would think, what he should want at this stage of his career, right? Especially if you've spent several years, as he has, being a little perturbed about their inability to really, you know, build a contender around him again since the 2020 team was dismantled and now you've got one of the top players in the league. Like, this is exactly what you should want. And especially a guy who can do all the things that you do, but is, you know, whatever, 12 years younger and has the ability to still do them at a really high level. LeBron still does too, by the way, but you should want somebody who can take some of that off of you when you're past 40 and when you don't know how many more seasons you've got left. I don't know how much of this is about the competitive version of him that just wants to win versus the part of him that feels like he's been shoved to the side in terms of the priority for the franchise. But I also don't know where else you go. There's nowhere else that's going to make you the center of the franchise again at this age. And I don't know where you go that puts you in a better position to win. Yes, there are better teams, but those teams are not in the market for LeBron right now. So I don't know how this resolves if he's unhappy. I also don't know Exactly. Understand entirely why he would be unhappy. Yes. Lucas should make his life better, his life easier on the court, and put him in a position to at least be really competitive and maybe have a chance at a deep playoff run. I think we all agree there's like one to two tiers at the top of the west, right? There's the Oklahoma tier, there's the Houston and Denver tier, and then there's everybody else, and it's Lakers and Clippers and maybe Wolves and Warriors and whoever else you want to throw in there.
- [34:35]
Michael Pina
Are we putting Oklahoma City in its own tier?
- [34:39]
Howard Beck
Yeah. Did enough in the space? Disagree. Wow.
- [34:42]
Michael Pina
Disagree.
- [34:43]
Howard Beck
Denver and Houston did enough to. This is a different discussion, but Denver and Houston did enough for you to say that it's one tier.
- [34:49]
Michael Pina
I think Denver should definitely be on Oklahoma City's tier.
- [34:52]
Howard Beck
I'm already ready to make Denver my preseason prediction to win the west, but it's based more on the. No, no, but that's a different. That's a different exercise, a different framework. What I'm saying is Oklahoma has by far the most talent, and they just won the championship.
- [35:08]
Michael Pina
Sure.
- [35:09]
Howard Beck
They're in their own tier because of that. Houston and Denver both did a lot of really great things this summer, which, if they all work out, give them the chance to be the ones to knock off Oklahoma. But that's different than saying they're in the same exact tier. I still. I know, whatever. You could clown me for it. Listeners could clown me for it. I'm saying Denver might be my pick, but at the same time, I think Oklahoma's in their own tier. If you want to say that's a contradiction in terms, it's fine. It's a different framework for looking at it.
- [35:40]
Michael Pina
Denver, own tier. Oklahoma City.
- [35:43]
Howard Beck
Wow.
- [35:43]
Michael Pina
I'm just kidding. No, I think the Denver Nuggets are wonderful. I think the Oklahoma City Thunder are wonderful. And. Yeah. So are we done with getting into LeBron?
- [35:54]
Howard Beck
Yeah, that's enough. I've had enough LeBron for. For at least three weeks.
- [35:58]
Michael Pina
Okay, my next question. Will the Miami Heat extend Tyler Hero?
- [36:06]
Howard Beck
Did not see that one coming. So remind me, what is the potentially.
- [36:11]
Michael Pina
On the table on October 1st? So, you know, we're right in the middle of training camp. Training camp questions. October 1st. Yeah, sure, whatever. We're cheating a little bit here. He is eligible for a three year, $149.7 million extension. That is a lot. The deadline for Miami and him to come to terms on an extension is October 20th, and I feel like, you know, their relationship is not over if they don't come to terms on an agreement, if nothing happens, he would, then he has this year under contract and he has next year under contract. I think $33 million in 27 and then he is an unrestricted free agent. But I just think that it's meaningful in some sense if the Miami Heat and him do not come to terms of some kind and extend their partnership. Because he's coming off, he's 25 years old. He's coming off an All Star season. I was digging into some of the numbers and watching some Tyler Herro clips earlier and I think personally I focused a little too much maybe on just the warts of his game and how in the playoffs defensively he is just such a target and was just brutalized by the Cleveland Cavaliers in round one publicly and on the court. But he's one of like the most efficient three level shot makers in the league. He was last season at least. And whether or not that impacts winning to the degree that the Miami Heat want, I just think it's an interesting situation because if I'm Miami, I know that paying Tyler Herro like this dude is not a max player. Obviously on his current contract the value around the league and trade value has been nothing. I mean they would have moved on from him probably already to get a star if he was that in demand. So I don't think that the Miami Heat are going to offer him what he wants. And in that sense I feel like things could devolve from there potentially because a bam Hero, you know, near max or Max on the books long term, how are you going to get the actual difference maker to contend for championships, which is what the Miami Heat are all about as a franchise.
- [38:45]
Howard Beck
And I also think it's fair to wonder if you were a 37 win team last season, which they were with Hero and Bam.
- [38:53]
Michael Pina
If those are your two hero making the all star team and Hero make.
- [38:57]
Howard Beck
Right his best season at least, you know, by resume. And that got you to 37 wins. I mean I granted, listen, the Jimmy Butler thing was hanging over them. That's, that's a part of all this. You have, you make a major trade everything. Like there's a lot else that goes into that. But I think before you throw down 150 million on, on an extension, I do think you have to ask yourself as a franchise for all of the things that we like about him and all that he's done productively, efficiently, if all this is is good enough to make us like hovering around 500 perhaps is that the right investment and I don't know, it feels like the, like the heat. They're on the verge of that, like, inflection point. Right? Where are. Is this still about Bam and Hero? Or at least Bam and whatever you can. Can you. Can you pull another Jimmy Butler rabbit out of the hat? You need something else, like, as constructed. I don't think there's a lot to. To get excited about there. And if you lock yourself in a hero for years to come, then you make it that much harder to pivot or figure out what that next edition is. So that's a tough one. That's a good one.
- [40:09]
Michael Pina
Thank you.
- [40:10]
Howard Beck
All right, one more where it's. I'm going to say the name. We will cover it as quickly as possible. We'll just move on. But I have to.
- [40:19]
Michael Pina
Can I guess? Can I guess?
- [40:21]
Howard Beck
You already kind of know.
- [40:25]
Michael Pina
Oh, now I don't know because I was gonna guess. Embiid.
- [40:32]
Howard Beck
No, I'm not. I'm not going there today.
- [40:34]
Michael Pina
Thank God. Go on.
- [40:37]
Howard Beck
I don't think I'd be. I would worry for your mental health if I threw too many Joel Embiid or Sixer related takes at you in the off season. I think I've overdone it as it is. Jonathan Kuminga, though.
- [40:49]
Michael Pina
Oh, great.
- [40:50]
Howard Beck
He's the star of the summer. He's the darling of summer. It's been the summer of Jonathan Kuminga, really. I mean, more than anybody else, more than Cam Thomas, more than Josh Giddey, more than like Kevin Durant. Trade was like eons ago. It's the summer of Kaminga. ESPN wrote like a 7,000 word story.
- [41:06]
Michael Pina
Summer of Kaminga.
- [41:10]
Howard Beck
Here's why. I still think it's interesting. And my question on the Kaminga issue is this. It's not so much about what are the contract terms, years and dollars and options, team option, player option. It's not that. That all matters too. My question about him is what is his market value once this gets resolved? Because there's a 99% chance that once this gets resolved, he's still with the Warriors. It's not going to be a sign and trade. It doesn't appear to be. We know that he does not want to be there. We know that they don't necessarily want him there for fit reasons and all kinds of stuff. They've got a two year window here basically with Steph, Jimmy Butler, Draymond.
- [41:54]
Michael Pina
Right.
- [41:55]
Howard Beck
So it's all about. Now. The reason I think this is interesting, I don't care about the back and forth between these. These two parties about what his value is and what he wants. All that matters, too. But I asked the question only because his market value as a player under contract with them, who will be on the trade block the second he's eligible to be traded, has direct impact on whether or not the warriors can actually make themselves a contender again or. Or if not a contender, how close can they get? How much can they close the gap between themselves and the top tier and a half of Oklahoma, Houston, Denver? The goal is to get into that tier. And Jonathan Kuminga's trade value, maybe plus or minus something else, a Moses Moody or a pick or whatever gets you what. And I don't know what the answer to that is, but the answer to that is fascinating. So the question to me is fascinating. What is Jonathan Kaminga's actual value around the league as a trade ship? Because what they can get for him will tell us potentially how good the warriors can be for the next couple of seasons. He's their one big trade piece to bolster whatever is left of the Steph era.
- [43:06]
Michael Pina
So, like giving your one big trade piece four DNPs during the playoffs, would that bolster the value or diminish the value, in your opinion?
- [43:23]
Howard Beck
Yeah, this is. This is all complicated. I mean, at the time, they're just looking to win games, and then when they needed him out of desperation, he came in and he really produced. I think everybody across the league understands now, for bargaining purposes, negotiating purposes, if you're another team trying to get him, you're making the point that you just made. Pinot. You're going to be. Come on, you want to. You want how many picks for a guy that you give this many DMPs to that your own coach doesn't trust. But I think.
- [43:49]
Michael Pina
Or just pick your Steve Kerr press conference quote about Jonathan Kaminga.
- [43:54]
Howard Beck
You know, what matters at the end of the day, though, is what do other teams see in him in terms of his actual talent and his value to them. Right. Jonathan Kuminga will be much more valuable as a Chicago Bull, for instance, than he would be as a Golden State Warrior.
- [44:08]
Michael Pina
Perfect Chicago Bull.
- [44:13]
Howard Beck
He's going to be a better fit on other teams. He's going to be a permanent starter on other teams. He's going to be more of a featured player on other teams. And the warts that the warriors see or the fit issues that they might see, oh, we can't put him out there with both Draymond and Jimmy because of spacing issues and shooting issues does not exist. Perhaps on A different team. What his value is as a young player with incredible athleticism and pop and, you know, definite scoring abilities, rebounding abilities, he should be able to be a very good defender and a switchable defender, yet to be seen in actuality consistently. But he has the makeup to do all that. He's a much more valuable piece somewhere else. And so what are you willing to give up for him? Again, I'm not playing with trade machines. I don't know where we're sending him, but at some point in the next several months, you know, first of all, in the next couple of weeks, the contract gets resolved and then we immediately shift into where's he going and when because we have to wait whatever the requisite 90 days or whatever until he's eligible to be traded. But right up there with Lowry market in, in terms of guys to watch as, as potential mid season trades, that's all I got. We don't need to go too deep down that rabbit hole unless you've got any other burning hot Jonathan Kaminga takes just.
- [45:31]
Michael Pina
I've kind of never been a huge fan of his game. I don't think that if I were a gm, I would be, you know, banging down the doors to try to get him on my team. And this is, I don't want to say it's much about nothing because of the consequence of this being related to Steph. The end of Steph Curry's career and Steph still has a lot to give. And I think that if you, you know, the warriors last year with Steph Draymond and Jimmy together, very good post, All Star break, dominant even. And, you know, if Steph is healthy and doesn't pull his hammy, do they go to the conference finals and just how does it all work out? But I just don't think that this whole thing with Kaminga has been a wonderful experience for him or the warriors and, you know, trying to have a young piece who's growing with the aging stars in a way that he's able to complement them and at the same time be satisfied with his minutes and his shots and his touches. So I don't know, like, to be honest with you, I'm not like that interested in what happens to Jonathan Commando because I don't think that he's an impact player at the end of the day. And I've already started to see him as a trade chip who may bring back Royce o', Neill, you know what I mean?
- [47:11]
Howard Beck
Listen, I talked to somebody yesterday who basically said, yeah, if I'm the Warriors, I would probably just take the Malik Monk and the protected pick from the Kings. I don't know that you're going to do much better than that. The warriors clearly think that they can and should do bet much better than that. I don't know. And this is why I asked the question. I don't know that the league, you know, broadly speaking, the consensus evaluation of him or what his value may be. I don't think it's not going to blow the warriors away. Now, maybe Jonathan Kaminga ends up in a steady part of the rotation early in the season. They really showcase him and he really shows out and his value increases. But I don't think too many people around the league are going like, oh yeah, future 10 time all star or three time all star, even or even one time all star. They're not. No one is grading him that way. And so it does put, I think, a little bit of a cap on what you can get. But again, if this was Jonathan Kuminga, restricted free agent of the Charlotte Hornets, I don't think anybody would care and I wouldn't bring him up. But he is the key to something for the Warriors.
- [48:08]
Michael Pina
He also would have already been paid if he was on the. You know what I mean?
- [48:11]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [48:11]
Michael Pina
So it's just his circumstance is unfortunate. But I also will just say that what is kind of damning to me about him is just, you know, I've referenced this before, but all of the statements that Steve Kerr has made, all of the, you know, if you watch the warriors games, you can see Steve Kerr and the coaching staff's body language whenever Jonathan Kaminga makes a mistake on defense or takes a shot that he shouldn't have and playing with and not, not, I should say, not benefiting from having Steph Curry on your team on the court with you, and not looking unbelievable like, he makes the game so much easier for everyone, I would imagine. And if he doesn't make the game easier for you, what is going on with you? I don't know if that's fair or not, but that's just kind of how I perceive him, thus.
- [49:01]
Howard Beck
All right, we're down. Two questions down each. What is your third question heading into training camp?
- [49:07]
Michael Pina
Okay, I'll go with. I'll go to the Dallas Mavericks. And I had starter sit for a lot of guys, but this is, I think, the most, one of the more interesting ones and it is Klay Thompson. And the question essentially translates to, will Cooper Flagg be Dallas's point guard?
- [49:29]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [49:29]
Michael Pina
Because if Klay Thompson starts, then and you have Anthony Davis at the 4, you have Derek Lively at the 5. Essentially, if Klay Thompson starts, D' Angelo Russell is coming off the bench. And D' Angelo Russell was brought in to replace Kyrie Irving as their point guard, assuming that PJ Washington is in your starting five as well. So if Klay starts, who's the point guard? It's Cooper Flagg. If Clay doesn't start, d' Angelo Russell starts, he's the point guard. And Cooper Flagg can play some other normal position that he would be as a rookie on a team that's supposed to be competitive in the eyes of many. So I think that's just really fascinating in terms of what we're going to see out of Cooper Flag. And it's less about how Clay will handle coming off the bench, which he did not do. He did not handle that great, understandably, at the end of his tenure with the Golden State Warriors. So I don't know if you, if there's a lot of meat here for you to chew on, but I think that Cooper Flag is just a really interesting variable as we head into this season.
- [50:44]
Howard Beck
But it also underscores to me in a weird way the folly of the whole Luca for Anthony Davis thing, because what happened at the moment they did that and Nico Harrison's explanation about, like, we're trying to win now, we're not worried about the future, it's a win now. They get this just absolute gift from the basketball gods of winning the lottery and they get Cooper Flagg, but you still have Anthony Davis sitting there at 32, 33, whatever. And the reason I bring that up is this. In a world where they don't have Anthony Davis in a veteran laden lineup and Kyrie Irving off the side rehabbing, in a world where you're just the bad team that won the lottery, that got the guy that could be the future of your franchise, what do you do? You go, oh, I don't know if Cooper Flag, is he a secondary ball handler? Is he a point forward? Is he a point guard? What is he? I don't know. Let's just use his rookie year to let him do everything and see where we land because we don't care about wins and losses. Except. Except they have said themselves, they have laid the definition now for themselves. We want to win championships and we want to do it with Anthony Davis and Kyrie Irving as our tent poles. Kyrie's out for the season. Anthony Davis is now, you know, you know, an anchor of a lineup that is mostly veteran, but with this really intriguing super young player, I would rather just have the freedom to just experiment, put the ball in his hands a gazillion times, see what he is, see what he can do. You know, we've got d' Angelo Russell as kind of our fail safe. Here's. Here's a seasoned hand, for better or worse. I didn't mean that.
- [52:21]
Michael Pina
Good thing I wasn't drinking water when you said that.
- [52:23]
Howard Beck
I didn't mean that as like a shot. It's just kind of the reality of his career. But like, they have made it very clear they've put the mandate on themselves and the pressure on themselves to win now. And that's at odds, I think, with being able to just give Cooper Flagg all the latitude in the world to just experiment and see what he can do as a rookie. So. But I like the question and I do think the Mavericks are fascinating for all of the above.
- [52:48]
Michael Pina
Do you think they'll be good?
- [52:50]
Howard Beck
No, I don't think they'll be terrible. But the west is so competitive. I don't think it's a guarantee. I don't think they're a top six team. So now you're in play in range. So they're probably somewhere in 7 to 10 range. And there's a scenario where Anthony Davis misses 30 games and they don't make.
- [53:11]
Michael Pina
The play in a very likely scenario.
- [53:12]
Howard Beck
Yeah, I mean, there's a scenario where they don't make the play in like, as talented as Cooper Flagg is and as high on him as everybody around the league is, it's asking a lot of him to prop them up with Kyrie out. And if Anthony Davis then misses a bunch of time, as he usually does, not a lot of playmaking on that roster otherwise.
- [53:32]
Michael Pina
No.
- [53:32]
Howard Beck
Aside from the for better or worse, d' Angelo Russell. So on that depressing note, how about this?
- [53:40]
Michael Pina
Let's do it.
- [53:42]
Howard Beck
Is it over for Ben Simmons and Russell Westbrook?
- [53:45]
Michael Pina
I was waiting for this one.
- [53:48]
Howard Beck
Ben Simmons, 29 years old, unsigned. Russell Westbrook, 37 years old in November, so almost 37, unsigned. It is September 18th and teams that were looking for guard help have passed on Russell Westbrook so far. Teams that were looking for just whatever plug and play play, any position help have passed on Ben Simmons. I am told pretty definitively that whatever was put out there about Ben Simmons turning down the Knicks was absolutely untrue. They never offered him anything. So in Russell Westbrook's case, pretty productive season for the Nuggets. Some high highs and some bad lows at times. In the playoffs in critical moments, but still a very productive and impactful player.
- [54:40]
Michael Pina
Very impactful.
- [54:43]
Howard Beck
Should I say for better or worse? We don't. But with Russ, he's 37, like that's a normal time to start to wonder if a guy's not signed. Well, maybe it's just the end. He's 37. And Ben Simmons case, he's 29. Like he should be in the middle of his prime and you know, it feels like it was not all that long ago that he was an all NBA third team player in Philly. I don't want to spend a lot of time on this but like here we are. Like these are Westbrook's an incredibly decorated player. His resume, his hall of Fame credentials are secure. MVP, nine time all star, nine time all NBA, two time scoring champ. He was on the 75th of anniversary team. Like whatever this, if this is the end for him, Russ is, is fine. If this is the end for Ben Simmons to go from first overall pick, generational transcendent talent type who had all the hype in the world coming with him to not, you know, we're not even 10 years later, he's the number one pick in 2016. It's been less than 10 years and here we are wondering if his career is over.
- [55:41]
Michael Pina
One of the weirdest careers since I've been alive, frankly. Guess how many points per game Ben Simmons averaged for the Los Angeles Clippers last year?
- [55:56]
Howard Beck
I'm going to say like 2.3.
- [55:58]
Michael Pina
Wow. 2.9.
- [56:00]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [56:02]
Michael Pina
I don't see what is the rationale for signing Ben Simmons at this point.
- [56:08]
Howard Beck
So it's a great question, it's a fair question and I guess the answer is that there isn't one because he's unsigned. I think if you were going to talk yourself into him as the Clippers did on the back part of the season. Well, at minimum, if he's not going to score, here's a guy who's 610 and if our center needs a blow, we can put him in. If our point guard needs a blow, we can put him in. He can play any position, he can guard any position. That was the, the outline of Ben Simmons once upon a time. And he can still, especially against Biggs, he can still like hold up a guy and, and, and play some defense in the post. But like in terms of as a perimeter guy who can guard one through five, which was at one time part of his calling card. One of the things that he was best at, like that guy's gone. Whether it's the Back injuries, other issues with his body, or just whether or not his head is in the game, that that version of Ben Simmons seems to be gone. And so, yeah, I do think that it's like, that's the question. What is the allure of him now? He doesn't want to shoot, he doesn't want to score. He's a gifted passer. Incredibly high basketball. Like Hugh loves to pass. He would prefer to do that at all times, but there's too. There's too many deficiencies in the game now. And I just. And if at one point you could. You could throw him out there and guard anybody, plug him into any position, that guy's gone. So what is left? Unless you really believe that you're the team whose medical staff and trainers are going to get him back to who he was in like 2018, I just don't see it. So I think this may be the end.
- [57:48]
Michael Pina
You make a great point about the defense. He was an incredible defender. Runner up for defensive player of the year in 21. I think he finished fourth for defensive player of the year the year prior. Two time first team, all defensive team member. I just remember him guarding Luka, like, bothering. Picking Luka up, full court, bothering him to the point where didn't need any help, couldn't be overpowered. The thing about Luka, of course, is he's just so powerful back to the basket. Like, he'll back. He'll back wings down. And he couldn't do that with Ben Simmons. Just incredibly physical, very versatile, obviously. And that guy is just so. Was so touch and go on the defensive end. And once the defense goes, I mean, everyone can make fun of the overpassing, the unwillingness to get into the paint at all with the ball in his hands. And when he does get there, what's he gonna do with it? So, yeah, I just don't know. I mean, I wrote this piece about, you know, earlier this offseason, kind of highlighting guys like Simmons and Westbrook. And I think Malcolm Brogdon was mentioned in that article. Just unsigned players of note. And I posited that Simmons could replace Tyrese Haliburton. Kind of tongue in cheek, but kind of like, okay, if I'm the Indiana Pacers, I have this system and this personnel that's built around a pass. First point guard who wants to play fast, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, doesn't necessarily want to shoot, but can. And at the same time, like, I don't really want to win games. Like, if I'm the, in my opinion, the Pacers are not going to agree with that. But, like, I have my draft pick. This is kind of a wash of a season and whatever. So we'll just sign Ben Simmons and we'll plug him in and he can kind of be the poor man's Tyrese Halliburton, and that's how we'll spend this season. And obviously they did not go that route. And I can't think of another team where he just. He makes sense at all. Because. Because he's someone who essentially needs the ball in his hands. Isn't good with the ball in his hands. And I mean, the Clippers had him as the backup five more than they had as a backup point guard, so. And then he was unplayable in the post season. So I think this is the end. I would be kind of surprised if a team took a. I mean, what is. I just. What is the upside? Like, what is. What is the upside to signing Ben Simmons? I don't know what it is.
- [60:37]
Howard Beck
Also always a huge red flag when you're parting ways with your agent or your agent is parting ways with you, as happened a couple weeks ago when you're still a free agent trying to find a job. Not a. Not a great sign for something to happen in September or August, whenever that happened. And in Russ's case. Look, there's a lot that comes with Russ, always. He has, you know, obviously, for all the other things I stipulated earlier and as great a career as he's had since 2019, when Westbrook was traded from Oklahoma to Houston, he's been with five teams and has not lasted a full two seasons with any of them. Rockets for a year, Wizards for a year, Lakers for about a season and a half or a little more than that. Clippers for about season plus Denver for one year and Utah waved him twice along the way as a facilitator in trades.
- [61:29]
Michael Pina
Was called a vampire on national television.
- [61:33]
Howard Beck
Whose quote was that?
- [61:35]
Michael Pina
Anonymous, of course. From the Los Angeles Lakers.
- [61:37]
Howard Beck
Yeah. Yeah. And then there was some. There was. There was some stuff in an ESPN.com story during the playoffs, too. Right.
- [61:47]
Michael Pina
Aaron Gordon, I believe.
- [61:48]
Howard Beck
Yeah, there was some stuff. He's a big presence. He's a big voice and little cantankerous, one might say. Yeah. And can wear some people out. Also seems to be in that category of star, who, you know, is post stardom, but. But can't think of himself in any other way and still carries himself well.
- [62:08]
Michael Pina
It never evolves his skill set to be that type of player.
- [62:11]
Howard Beck
It's. It's tough it may be over, by the way, just attack on one more guy whose NBA career could be over. Yeah, the other number one pick of the Philadelphia 76ers, one year after Ben Simmons, Markel Fultz, still unsigned.
- [62:26]
Michael Pina
Oh, that's a sad one.
- [62:27]
Howard Beck
Yeah, very sad.
- [62:29]
Michael Pina
Was he in Sacramento Sac? Okay.
- [62:31]
Howard Beck
Yeah. But as of this recording, I believe, still unsigned. Your fourth and final.
- [62:38]
Michael Pina
Fifth and final. Wow.
- [62:41]
Howard Beck
The time.
- [62:42]
Michael Pina
Where does the time go? This could have probably been my number one, to be honest. Like, this is, I think, bearing the lead again.
- [62:49]
Howard Beck
This is why you have editors.
- [62:53]
Michael Pina
I'm gifting this to the listeners who stayed this long. This is my present to them. So you're welcome. Will the Memphis Grizzlies offer Ja Morant a contract extension?
- [63:08]
Howard Beck
That's a spicy one.
- [63:11]
Michael Pina
So according to ESPN's Bobby Marks, the Grizzlies have up until October 21st to tack on two additional years, 61.7 million and 66.7 million to the three years that are already left on his contract. The extension would put him in a Grizzlies uniform through the 2029, 2030 season. And this is a similar extension that the Phoenix Suns gave to Devin Booker earlier this offseason, which was two years and 104, 45 million dollars, which was the largest average annual contract staggering extension in NBA history. So this is, I mean, I don't think this isn't going to happen. Right?
- [64:03]
Howard Beck
You'd be shocked. I'd be shocked. Yeah. Too many injuries, too many other concerns.
- [64:09]
Michael Pina
Generally just unreliable for a variety of reasons.
- [64:11]
Howard Beck
And again, another player who hasn't quite evolved and plays a breakneck style that is only going to keep getting him hurt at his, with his frame and the way he plays. And it's what's so exciting about him and what's so effective and fun about his game. But it's the thing that's going to make us, you know, probably shorten his career because of the wear and tear.
- [64:30]
Michael Pina
So he has $126.5 million on his contract over the next three years. And we agree that this is not going to probably not going to happen.
- [64:44]
Howard Beck
I'd be a little surprised.
- [64:45]
Michael Pina
So at the same time, the Memphis Grizzlies have stood behind John Morant. They have treated him as a franchise player. They have shot down you on stage, starting rumors. They don't want to trade him. They traded Desmond Bain this offseason, which.
- [65:09]
Howard Beck
Caused a lot of people to wonder if it was going to be like a complete tear down. Right. They're like, oh my God, is this the first step toward every. And no, nothing else happened.
- [65:15]
Michael Pina
And one might also wonder if the trade value that John Moran has on this current contract has prohibited Memphis from dealing him to get something of value in return where it makes sense to move on from him. But what I think is really interesting about this is if I'm John Morant, you know, he's a NBA all star, has the shoe with Nike signature shoe that is very popular, et cetera. And he's like, you know, I'm the franchise player in Memphis. I am the Memphis Grizzlies. I want that extension. You go, I want that extension. And they say no. Then what happens? That's when I'm. I get intrigued by how frayed does that, what does that do to the relationship between player and franchise in a way that could lead to bad things down the road and a potential breakup.
- [66:10]
Howard Beck
And in this league, this is why teams sometimes make these kinds of leaps, right, where you give out an extension you're not fully comfortable with as a franchise. But what are we supposed to do? This is a star driven league. This guy's our star. He's incredibly popular. He's, you know, yeah, there's some blemishes and there's been some concerns and some injuries, but like, yeah, you don't want to alienate him, you don't want to piss him off, but you don't want to lock up your cap for the next five, six years either on a guy that you can't rely on and that you're not sold on. Should be the face of your franchise. And I'm not saying that they're not sold on that. I'm saying I'm not sold on their behalf. And anybody reasonably could have those concerns. If you're the GM or the owner of the Memphis Grizzlies, by the way, games played per season for the last four years, 57, 61, 9 and 50. Not, not exactly a very encouraging trend line there as he moves into his, you know, whatever, mid, mid to late 20s. Still pre prime, by the way. Maybe technically the age framework that we usually use in theory, Pre Prime. If 27 is when we move into.
- [67:26]
Michael Pina
Prime years, I mean, you know, they had the Oklahoma City Thunder right where they want them and then Lou Dort undercut John Moran. We never know. We want to know what could have happened in that first round series if he didn't get hurt.
- [67:38]
Howard Beck
We'll never know. That's a great question.
- [67:40]
Michael Pina
Only a two time all star, which is kind of interesting. And he's only made one All NBA team. And as you know, when we were both at Sports Illustrated, I wrote a, you know, went to Memphis, wrote this big feature about him, and I actually reread it the other day because we moved. And so I'm, you know, I'd see the magazine. I was like, oh, I wrote this. So reread it. And it's just kind of, you know, I'm proud of that article, whatever. But it is not aged well at all.
- [68:08]
Howard Beck
You think my Zion Williamson cover story for SI has aged well? We're in neck and neck competition right there, as those two are in neck and neck competition as draft classmates who have been too often absent and have so far been disappointing.
- [68:23]
Michael Pina
Real tough. And honestly, if I look at the Memphis Grizzlies and I don't really know, I don't know if this even matters that much, but just like, if we're labeling people as franchise players the way that they have kind of moved heaven and earth to give Jaren Jackson Jr. That contract this offseason and just I guess who he is as a. I don't want to, you know, whatever. He's a model citizen, not in trouble ever, et cetera. Very good ascending young talent. I think he might be the franchise player and he might be someone who it makes more sense to build around in the. What pieces make sense around Jaren Jackson Jr. Versus what pieces make sense around John Moran? I don't know if I'm necessarily at that point, but that is a question that I think the Memphis Grizzlies should be already potentially asking themselves.
- [69:23]
Howard Beck
I understand it on a basketball level. I understand it on even, almost like a spiritual level of like, who do you trust to build around kind of thing. Like, John Morant's the guy who puts butts in seats and excites the fan base and drives everything. Right. Jaren Jackson Jr. Is a really great player to have, but he's not driving the whole thing. So I don't know, where is this?
- [69:44]
Michael Pina
Where are we driving to?
- [69:49]
Howard Beck
I had a couple thoughts there. I'm not. I'm not. I'm just not even going to do it. Moving on.
- [69:54]
Michael Pina
All right, so I gave you my five. What's your.
- [69:56]
Howard Beck
You're four. I've got. I've got three options for you.
- [70:02]
Michael Pina
Wow.
- [70:04]
Howard Beck
I have a superstar related option. I've got a Can this guy be a number one option, and I've got a league more broad option. Which of those three would you like to hear?
- [70:18]
Michael Pina
Number one? The can this guy be a number one?
- [70:21]
Howard Beck
Ah. And maybe, as you suspected, or intuited. Oh, Jesus. I mean, it's your team.
- [70:31]
Michael Pina
Oh, we're going there. Okay. Interesting.
- [70:33]
Howard Beck
How good will Jaylen Brown be? No, the way I wrote it down was actually, how good will Jaylen Brown be as a number one? Not can he be a number one at the same level of Jason Tatum or anybody else you want to put on that list of established number ones, but he's going to be their number one option. How good will he be? And. And is it enough to keep the Celtics in the playoff hunt? And the reason I wonder about it mostly is, as we know, for years there, there was that, like that burbling either tension or perceived tension of, you know, are they going to keep them together? Should they keep them together? And these rumblings every so often, usually granted from other teams saying Jaylen Brown would like to be the number one somewhere. And we're not sure if these guys are going to stay together. Not because they don't like each other or can't play together or can't share the. It was none of that. It was more like just as Kyrie at one point decided he wanted out from under LeBron's shadow, could. Could Jaylen Brown see himself in a way where that was the important thing? And now we're going to see the test case for what it looks like with Jaylen Brown as a number one option and as a. As a better version of him. This is. Those rumblings were from three years ago, and this is a more well rounded, matured version of him. I'm always fascinated when you've got a team that has the luxury of two or three stars and you think, man, what could that guy do on his own? Well, we're going to get to find out now, and it will determine where the Celtics fall. Listen, they may rather not be in the vaunt. They may rather be playing for draft position. They will. But it's a fascinating thing to look at because though we've already gone through the depressing exercise, depressing on behalf of Celtics fans anyway, of how steep the drop off is after the first three. Four players, maybe three. Jalen Brown, Derek White, Peyton Pritchard and the big three. Yeah, there's at least some good talent right there. Like, okay, they're going to be able to score, I think, and they'll be able to defend, I think. I just don't know how good at each either level. And I don't know if there's any bench at all to speak of, but I am fascinated to see Jaylen Brown as a Number one. So there you go.
- [72:39]
Michael Pina
Yeah, I think Jaylen Brown's really good. One of the better two way players in the league the last few seasons. Obviously had a tremendous finals run and was critical to that and was excellent in the finals and was someone who hit a lot of big shots on a huge stage. And he has as much playoff experience as anyone really in the NBA. Frankly, since he's entered it, I think being the primary option, lead ball handler, high usage, playmaker on a very good team is something that only a select few can say that they can handle. And Jaylen Brown's game does not necessarily translate to that responsibility set. I think that, you know, he as someone who is will suddenly from the opening tip be defended by the opposing team's best defender. The opposing team's scouting report will revolve around either taking the ball out of his hands with pressure, blitzing and pick and rolls, not worrying about what is around him necessarily and his ability to respond to that, get off the ball every single time that happens, not be frustrated, not force shots, which is kind of, I mean his whole role on the team will shift every minute he's on the court. And so I don't think he's ever been someone who has been want to make life easier for teammates. And that's not like a criticism just because he can get any shot he wants. He, he's so athletic. His in between game is spectacular. But I think that the degree of difficulty on the shots is only going to go up. And he wasn't even particularly that efficient when he had Jrue Holiday and Kristaps Porzingis and Derrick White and Jason Tatum. So I think that typically when all this happens and attention from the opposing team goes up, efficiency will probably go down. And the player who was amazing in I think it was a game five against the Knicks, Celtics went at home and he has one of the better games of his entire career. Game 6, he fouls out and it's a total disaster and the Celtics lose in a blowout effort. I think that you're going to get, not necessarily ride a roller coaster like that with him this season, but I think having the in between of those two extremes is not a first option on a very good basketball team. It's just not who he is. So. And also I'll just say lastly the pieces around him are not ideal. This is not a good basketball team.
- [75:38]
Howard Beck
So you know, yeah, I was going to say like the unfortunate thing, indeed the unfair thing about my question is that it's not even going to be the right or, or fair evaluation of him. It just isn't. Porzingis and Drew Holiday are gone in addition to Tatum being gone. If it were the exact same team but you had whatever replacement for Tatum's salary slot and, and Porzingis and Drew Holiday were still there, then it's like, okay, here's Jaylen Brown with the, with the Celtics team that was a Tatum centric team and now it's a Brown centric team and it's the we don't even have apples to apples comparison, right? And in fact, it's a vastly degraded roster at this point compared to where they've been the last couple of years. So in a lot of ways it's not a fair assessment, but it's still a fascinating exercise and an ongoing assessment for the season. So I thought that was interesting to at least toy with among the options. You didn't choose Pina. Again, we don't have to get into it. I'll just list these off Will the Bucks be good enough to calm the waters around Giannis?
- [76:42]
Michael Pina
Geez Louise, it's going to make me comment on the Bucks.
- [76:45]
Howard Beck
I'm not.
- [76:45]
Michael Pina
I hate mail left and right.
- [76:47]
Howard Beck
I've already stipulated you do not have to say anything. Teams like teams are already circling as they always do. We've already, you know, the warriors and whoever else are all, you know, Lakers all. Everybody's saving cap room for 2027 in case he's available and in case, in case a superstar ever changes teams via free agency ever again. But you know, everybody thought there was going to be Giannis trade talks this summer. Didn't happen. Cool. Great. These things are always day to day. If they come out of the gate slow, if they're stumbling through November and December, it's going to spark it all. We know it will. So my question was, will they be good enough to calm the waters and not have that happen? Then there's the how frustrated Will how frustrated are fans going to get the first couple weeks of the NBA season as they're trying to find out or figure out where the hell to watch games?
- [77:35]
Michael Pina
I'm already frustrated.
- [77:36]
Howard Beck
This is all right. I'm going into now my 29th season covering this league and it is the first time in all of that time that the league sent us an email when the schedule came out saying, here's a guide to which channels or services on which days. Please help us publicize this. And I'm not knocking the NBA for doing that. I appreciate them doing that and I appreciate that I now have the graphic card. Card that I can look at anytime because I don't know either. But for the record, Monday on Peacock, Tuesdays on NBC or Peacock, Wednesdays on espn, Fridays on Prime Video. That's Amazon prime, by the way. Thursday also Prime Video. Oh, excuse me. Friday, Prime Video. But additional weekly national games starting mid season, Thursday, Prime Video, Saturday, ABC or ESPN or Prime Video and Sunday, ABC or ESPN or NBC Saturday. So now that we've got that settled, I think we're all good. We're good to go, right? We've all got it down.
- [78:27]
Michael Pina
That brain is just leaking out of my ear right now.
- [78:30]
Howard Beck
Unfortunately, the guide to which channels the NBA will be on this coming season is now almost as long as the cba. It's very close now. I do think there's gonna be some frustration and some grumbling. Forget that the cost part of it, which is significant. But just the mere trying to remember what channel I'm supposed to put on.
- [78:52]
Michael Pina
Where can I get the highlights? That's what I want to know.
- [78:56]
Howard Beck
You know, where to find the highlights on House of Highlights, apparently. All right, before we go, and by the way, a programming note for those of you who are real ones listeners. We will be back with the real ones, I believe one week from today. Raja Bell and I will be on Logan Murdoch taking a little time off just right till around opening night. There's your programming note. Before we wrap this one up, I do have one bonus question and it is a question that I would expect will be asked on media day for this particular team or shortly thereafter. And I am very curious about the answer to this one. Are the Oklahoma City Thunder going to visit the White House? No team visited the White House during the the first Trump administration. That was the warriors in 2017 and 18, the Raptors in 2019, Lakers in 2020. But there was Covid. But there was no no NBA team visited the White House from 16 through 20. That tradition did resume during the administration that followed. I am very curious to know how the NBA and NBA teams will handle this. Now. You do not have to answer that. We do not have to speculate and I don't think we should. I'm just curious how that's going to play out. It is a thing. People may cringe at me even voicing it today. I'm sure the Thunder are not happy with me bringing it up right now, but it's going to come up and we should hear that answer. I would think before too long, once teams are back in action with training camp.
- [80:40]
Michael Pina
You know, at the risk of making a foolish prediction, I would say that maybe I don't think there's a unified. I know that's only 15 players and coaching staff and all that. I don't think that these things are unified anymore. And so it wouldn't surprise me if a select few players showed up and staff and some decided to hold out a not go or I don't know.
- [81:08]
Howard Beck
They also have to be invited and maybe the invitation won't be extended. Has not been this president's favorite league historically. So that's as far down that rabbit hole we need to go.
- [81:18]
Michael Pina
You know, I gave the listeners who stuck around a gift and you give them this like no one wants to hear this.
- [81:26]
Howard Beck
I left it for the end for a reason. If anybody stuck around this long, they're just very interested in everything we have to say, including down potentially dark rabbit holes.
- [81:39]
Michael Pina
Did we miss anything? Is there any other cool training camp story that will Reed Shepard be the backup point guard for the Houston Rockets? I mean, you know, we got plenty.
- [81:51]
Howard Beck
Of time for the Reed shepherd role. Definition time. Like that's a midst of training camp story. We'll get back to it. All right, Pina, this has been fun. Thank you. Good luck with the rest of the boxing, unboxing, wall hangings, everything else childcare along the way. Welcome to the neighborhood. Ish.
- [82:14]
Michael Pina
Thank you sir.
- [82:14]
Howard Beck
I'll see you at a bar on Court Street. Thank you all for joining us. And we'll be back next week with the real one.
- [82:29]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Reads)
This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. You know what fall means, right? Game day parties are back. Whole Foods Market has everything you need. Kick off with impressive appetizers like Heat n eat boneless chicken bits or a shrimp cocktail platter. Then score big with big flavors for big appetites. Feed your team with made in house marinated chicken wings and Teton waters, ranch hot dogs and sausages and an oven ready 16 inch pizza that will satisfy even the extra large players. Host Game Day with help from Whole Foods Market both in store and online.
- [83:05]
Howard Beck
Your teen adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained, one who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly.
- [83:15]
Michael Pina
They do not always show up on.
- [83:16]
Howard Beck
Time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules but behave as if they do not exist. New Team the new fragrance by Miu.
- [83:31]
Michael Pina
Miu defined by you.