← The Ringer NBA Show
The Ringer NBA Show
Knicks Offseason Thoughts and Expectations for the 2025-26 Season With Fred Katz
01:14:30
Loading summary
Transcript207 lines
- [00:11]
Commercial Announcer
Dive into an Italian summer with Dolce and Gabbana Light blue. Visit Dolce Gabbana.com to discover more. This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Buying a car shouldn't eat up your week. That's why Carvana made it convenient. Car buying that fits around your life, not the other way around. You can get pre qualified for an auto loan in just a couple of minutes and browse thousands of quality car options, all within your terms, all online, all on your schedule. Turn car buying into a few clicks and not a full week's endeavor. Finance and buy your car at your convenience on Carvana financing, subject to credit approval. Additional terms and conditions may apply.
- [01:00]
Woj (Big Woz)
Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to a spot summer edition off season edition of the Ringer NBA show. I'm your host, Big Woz, AKA wasn'tyland Brain. I'm joined by my brother, my partner all the way from New York City, Fred Katz of the Athletic. What's going on, brother?
- [01:20]
Fred Katz
Thank you for having me, man. I appreciate it.
- [01:22]
Woj (Big Woz)
Oh, man. Like, you know, they told me I could book guests and I'm like, what are the off season stories that fascinate me? And I, you know, not to be a New York City homer. I immediately thought about the Knicks and their off season and, you know, I think they did a great job in free agency. We could get to that. But the coaching search became a story because it was unlike any coaching search I've ever seen before. Like, have you ever seen something like this, Fred? Like you've been doing this for a minute. Like.
- [02:01]
Fred Katz
It was, it was strange. It was, it was strange. I mean, look, I'll, I'll be honest, I, I wasn't completely shocked when they fired tips. I was surprised. But it's not like it came out of nowhere because I think heading into the playoffs, I think everybody around there kind of had the impression, like, if they lose to Detroit in the first round, coaching staff score. Because what we kind of forget when we talk about the Knicks having this great run, legitimately great run to the Eastern Conference finals, and I think what any sane viewer would call a very successful season, it's a very positive step.
- [02:38]
Woj (Big Woz)
Successful season, 100%.
- [02:40]
Fred Katz
Like making the conference finals for the first time in 25 years. That's a great accomplishment. With a roster that you can keep together for the long haul and a lot of really good players who fit well together. That's a, that's a, that's a great, that's a great end of the season, and that's a great accomplishment. But what we kind of forget is that the regular season was. I don't want to call it a mess because it wasn't a Mess. They won 51 games, and for the most part, they were obviously a good team. But there were a lot of warts on that team during the regular season where Mikhail Bridges was just not looking like the guy who they hoped he could be on either side of the ball. They had weird fit issues. Karl Anthony Towns was not responding great to Wings guarding him as the season progressed, and the Knicks were not responding great to when Wings guarded Towns and put centers on Josh Hart. Their bench was a little shallow, like there. That team had issues during the regular season. It was. It was good. It was imperfect. And a lot of that was covered up by them playing an amazing series against Boston and Mikhail Bridges playing an incredible defensive series against Boston in Detroit. But going into the playoffs, really, everybody around the team had the impression, okay, if they lose to Detroit, then coaching staff is out. And once they get to Boston, it's. The impression was like, all right, they got to at least have a very competitive series against Boston, and then maybe we'll see what happens. But if they get the Doors blown off them by Boston, that coaching staff definitely was paranoid it was going to be out. And then once they beat Boston, you would think, okay, you know what they did, the things they were supposed to do, and you're okay. And during that Indiana series, I'm still getting the impression that, like, a lot of the people on that coaching staff are like, feels like the goalposts have moved a little bit. Like, we gotta. We gotta beat Indiana. Like, there was nobody there who was like, all right, we're okay.
- [04:36]
Woj (Big Woz)
So that's interesting. I don't think I heard that in all of the reporting that's been out there. You got the sense that even after making the conference finals, they. The. The internally, the coaching staff felt like this is do or die for us against the Pacers, because that's kind of not what we were hearing. I shouldn't say that. I think I. I think most of the New York media was like, tibbs has kind of earned his right to make it to next season because, yeah, the regular season was sloppy. Yeah, I mean, for me, like, you talked about the offensive fit issues, like, Tibbs has never been a creative offensive coach, so I didn't kind of expect them to have some incredible offense. I thought they kind of even overachieved a bit on that end last year. When you consider all of the moving parts and all of the New things they had to incorporate. The defense was so piss poor. And that's when I was just like, so what is Tibbs doing for this team? Because we know it's not Mike d', Antoni, Steve Kerr, you know, level offensive execution, and if they're not playing defense, what is Tibbs actually doing? But then in the playoffs, the defense kind of came together, and so I was like, hey, man, maybe they were just saving their energy for this moment and Tibbs is going to come. But to be sure, I was completely fine with the firing, too.
- [06:09]
Fred Katz
I think the firing was only part of the move. Right? I mean, I'm. I'm on the record of saying that I wouldn't have fired Tibbs just because the guy turned around the organization. He did accomplished a ton, Has a great dynamic with the star player of the team. And that is so important. Yeah, right. Like that. It is so important that you have synergy between your head coach and your star player, that your star player backs your coach. And Jalen Brunson obviously has backed Tibbs since He was, like, 5 years old, because Tibbs. He's known Tibbs literally. He has known Tibbs for so long that literally, the first time he met Tibbs, he cannot remember because he was too young to retain memories. That's how long.
- [06:52]
Woj (Big Woz)
Crazy.
- [06:53]
Fred Katz
He's known Tibbs because Rick Brunson, his dad, played for Tibbs in the 90s and got incredibly close with him. And then Rick was an assistant with Tibs, with Chicago and in Minnesota and then in New York. And the whole family is just really, really close with Tibs. Like, they were so close that the Brunson family motto is the magic is in the work. And the reason that's the Brunson family motto is because Tibbs used to say that to Rick when he. Rick stole it from him.
- [07:21]
Woj (Big Woz)
So, like, crazy.
- [07:23]
Fred Katz
So, like, Sandra Brunson, Jalen's mom, gets these shirts made up that say, the magic is in the work. And. And it's like. And they're like, that's not a Tibbs thing for us. That's the family. That's the family motto. So, like, Jalen was almost raised to play for Tibs, so it's not a surprise that he then goes and plays for Tibbs. And one of the reasons that he went to New York was because he wanted to play for Tibbs. It's not a surprise that he goes to New York and Tibbs is the guy who makes him a star. You know, like, not saying, I'm not taking the credit Away from Jalen, he didn't work. But like, it's not a surprise that it worked great.
- [08:03]
Woj (Big Woz)
You know, the synergy is, is, is obvious. And obviously Rick Brunson is on the staff. We've all, we've. Everybody's talked about the familial dynamic of the New York Knicks and that's, and that's what I want to talk to you about. Cause you're there. And it was genuinely shocking to me when you think about how the Knicks have put this together on this sort of la familia, it's a family, it's blood in, blood out, blah, blah, blah kind of thing that they've done with Leon Rose and World Wide west and Thibodeau and the CAA and the Nova Knicks. And even though they got rid of DiVincenzo, but it felt like Tibbs was a made man over there. How do you explain their decision to. Aside from the off court stuff, I mean, on court, excuse me, how do you explain their decision to go anti what's felt like the organizing principle and ethos of the Leon Rose regime?
- [09:16]
Fred Katz
I think it is a number of factors, to be honest. I think, I think James Dolan was very supportive of the decision and he was sitting in on end of season exit interviews, which is not necessarily the norm for an owner to do in those situations. And I think he was somebody who helped lead that decision for sure. I think there were certain players in the locker room who didn't see his eye to eye with Tibbs. Like two years ago, that team that lost to Indiana in the second round and seven when everybody got hurt, they had a ton. That was a Tibbs team. Yeah, like Dante DiVincenzo. It's so funny to me that like Dante and Rick Brunson and Tibbs all had their thing in the preseason game earlier last year and it was such a thing of like, oh, Dante's pissed the Tibs, man. Dante DiVincenzo loves Tibbs more than either of us love like our own mothers. Gosh, it is, it is crazy how much Dante DiVincenzo loves Tibbs. I, I'll tell this story because I don't, I don't think, I don't think he would mind me telling this story. So every year the Athletic does a anonymous player poll and one of the questions is always, which coach would you least like to play for? And this year we actually changed the question to who do you think is the worst coach? But when it was which coach would you least like to play for? Tibbs would win that poll. So apparently this year, when Minnesota players were polled, when Dante was already on Minnesota, Dante would follow around the reporters who were taking the answers. When it got to your coach question, Dante would be like, you motherfucker, you better not say Don Thibodeau. He's the best. Like, he was gatekeeping Tibbs. Wow, that guy loves, Loves Tibbs. Would. Would. Would play for him in a second. Because. Because Dante is honestly different personality type than Tibbs. Same values, same mentality, same approach to work as Tibbs. And so he loves that. He loves a guy who meets him at his level because he's such an absurd competitor. And, you know, Hartenstein was not really a Tibbs guy his first year with the Knicks, I don't think. And then he started to listen to him, and he was like, damn, everything this guy tells me up being right. Maybe I should just do that. And he got way better, and then he was really behind him. He had a roster that was really behind him. I don't think Tibbs ever really worked great with Mikel Bridges. I don't think the basketball fit optimized great. I've always said Tibbs, when this is true for basically every coach. I think, you know, say, for maybe Eric Spoelstra or something like that, we talk about coaches like, this guy's a good coach, this guy's a bad coach. I think the reality is most guys who are good enough coaches to be NBA head coaches are great coaches for some people, good coaches for some people, bad coaches for other people, and horrible coaches for other people. And Tibbs was an amazing coach for Jalen Brunson, an amazing coach for Dante DiVincenzo. I don't think he was a great coach for Mikhail Bridges. And I think you bring in certain people and maybe not an amazing coach for OG Anunoby. I know, like, those guys had disagreements on certain things. And, like, I think when you have that sort of dynamic that can change from year to year, I think the Knicks felt like they needed. They needed a change there. The minutes were definitely a thing. I know Tibbs always pushed against it, but the minutes were definitely a thing.
- [13:02]
Woj (Big Woz)
He was proven wrong about the minutes. Like, he started playing like, look, Dylan Wright, he's not a great player, but he started getting minutes and it was fine. Like, there was no issue. When he finally decided to play these dudes, it was like, yeah, Tim's like, you should have been doing this. Like, he was ultimately proven wrong of his own theory. When he finally relented, these guys weren't A tire fire. It was completely okay when these guys came in.
- [13:36]
Fred Katz
Actually, you know what? I don't know if I agree.
- [13:41]
Woj (Big Woz)
Really.
- [13:42]
Fred Katz
Yeah. I think he was in some ways proven right, because they went the whole year playing guys a ton of minutes.
- [13:51]
Woj (Big Woz)
Oh, my God. So they.
- [13:53]
Fred Katz
They had no major injuries. They were the healthiest team in the playoffs, and they made. And they made the conference finals in. In part because they're good players. Played more like, in part because OG Anunoby played a lot, and he's really freaking good at basketball, and he's better than whoever's behind him, and he played more, and he ended up being okay. Look, there's some stuff with the minutes with Tibbs that I was like, all right, that's. That's a lot. Like, there was. I remember. I will never forget being at Knicks Hornets in December, and the knicks were up 24. And they. It was one of those games where, like, Knicks take a huge lead early and the game's just over in the first quarter, and they just. They just coast the rest of the way. Knicks are up 24 with a minute 30 left, and Tibbs pulls Mikhail Bridges, and it was the first time he pulled him in the whole game. He had played 46 and a half consecutive minutes in a game. The knicks were up 24. And I was like, that is not necessary. To me, the issue with the minutes with Tibbs was always the consecutive minutes. It was the long stretches, because that's when you're tired and that's when you land funny on an ankle or whatever else. But. But, like, Knicks won games in part because they played really good players, more than other teams played really good players.
- [15:20]
Woj (Big Woz)
But to me, that's an indictment of the coaching, though. Like, the idea, like, if you're.
- [15:27]
Fred Katz
If.
- [15:27]
Woj (Big Woz)
When your best players play, you're not dominant, like, and the team was made to be dominant. When those groups get together, that's an indictment. Like, to me, right? Like, when you think about the Nuggets starting lineup, or you think about OKC's best lineup, so you. When you think about the top teams, when they play their best guys, those lineups are dominant. And that wasn't the case for the Knicks. So to me, it's like you're making up for something by doing that. Like, the reason you have to do that is because you haven't made. Made this group coalesce in a way that it's unnecessary. And that's why, to me, it's like Tibbs, like, y' all not even blowing people off the court when you do this, like, just play some other guys, whatever. So that's fair.
- [16:23]
Fred Katz
I mean, look to me, to me, that's actually a different conversation where there's the minutes, which is just total minutes guys play, and then there's the distribution of minutes. And I think the distribution of minutes was a problem. Like that starting lineup was not as good as it should have been, or at least it's not as good as it could have been. And what we saw is that's those five guys playing together for more than any other five some in the league for the whole year. And we didn't see experimentation of five out very much. We didn't see Deuce McBride play in the Josh Hart spot like that, that, that if. If you take out Josh Hart from the starting lineup and put in Deuce McBride, that lineup played almost never crazy all season. And, and that kind of stuff. To me, it's less about the total minutes and more about the distribution of minutes and the wanting to try out lineups. And when you have a team that's a really good team that you know is making the playoffs, that you know is going to win anywhere from 48 to 55 games, I would rather win 49 and know exactly what all of my best lineup combinations are and be able to have as much data as possible on every single possible lineup combination and on every single player. I would rather have that heading into the playoffs than win 54 and know that my starting lineup has played twice as many minutes as any other lineup in the league. And it's not that good. They're, you know, plus 5 per 100 possessions, which is solid. But in order for that team to be awesome, that starting lineup had to be had direct teams. And it didn't. And they didn't find remedies for that. And I'm with you on that. I'm with you on that 100%. I think Mike Brown is probably going to experiment more with that kind of stuff and probably build more of a sample on things.
- [18:19]
Woj (Big Woz)
We're going to get to Mike Brown and we've dumped on Tibbs enough and his shortcomings. You don't think he should have got fired? I'm okay with the move, but, like, it's with caveats. Here's my problem with the move. Why I think it's a problem I'm old enough to remember. When the Knicks go out and get their guy, meaning you have a fucking crap team. You go out and give Larry Brown $40 million a shit team, you're like, yo, this is like the best pure basketball coach in the league. He's a New York guy. Let's go blow him out the water with an offer, bring him to fucking Madison Square Garden. Same with Dan Tony. Same with Phil fucking Jackson. They had to beg this guy to get out of retirement, to do a job he never did. Paid the shit out of him, broke records to do so. Now Boston is down, the Pacers are cooked. You just went to the conference finals. Why the fuck are we not doing this for Eric Spoelscher? Why aren't we doing this for Steve Kerr? Why aren't we getting the best fucking coach in America to come coach, which is clearly a championship level, NBA Finals level type of team. That's why I'm just like, the Tibbs thing is so stupid. What are you doing this for if it's not to do that? I don't like, I don't understand this coaching sort of process. It makes no sense to me. Like, why not just go to the Miami Heat? Be like, yo, Mickey Harrison, what's it gonna take? We're willing to guarantee 140 million for Eric Spoester. Seven years, 20 million a pop. We're willing to make this guy the highest paid coach ever. What do you want for that, Mickey Aronson? Let's do a deal. Let's go out and get the best. Yo, Steve Kerr. You already got four rings. You already did X, Y and Z. Come find a new challenge in New York. We're going to pay the hell out of you. Fucking Joe Laker be playing with you negotiation wise. He be treating you like you ain't nobody. Come to New York. We're going to pay the fuck out of you.
- [20:36]
Fred Katz
Like, why?
- [20:37]
Woj (Big Woz)
Like, we're trying to get interviews with IME Adoka.
- [20:42]
Fred Katz
Like, what?
- [20:42]
Woj (Big Woz)
What the fuck was this process, Fred? Cats.
- [20:45]
Fred Katz
I'm sorry, I don't think any of those guys were available. Like, I don't think, I don't believe, I don't think I, I, if you call, like, they did try to do that. Like, they tried to do that. They tried that with Emo Doka.
- [20:58]
Woj (Big Woz)
Okay?
- [20:58]
Fred Katz
Like, Emoja is a great coach. We can agree Emo Dugga is an awesome coach.
- [21:03]
Woj (Big Woz)
I don't know that he's what the Knicks need, but sure, but he is an.
- [21:07]
Fred Katz
He goes to a place and that team plays discipline and plays hard and guards and all of a sudden becomes smart. You remember what the Rockets were before Emea Udoga got there. They were the most undisciplined team in the NBA, and it wasn't even close.
- [21:23]
Woj (Big Woz)
You want to hear something funny about the Rockets before IME got there, I remember the warriors played them and in the post game, Draymond Green was like, at a certain point, like, he was sticking up for Silas. He was like, at a certain point, players have to not be stupid. Like, that's literally what he said after playing the Rockets. Like, this is one of the dumbest teams in the, like, I've never seen a player defend the opposing coach in a post game press conference. To be like, no, like, these dudes are playing like knuckleheads. So you're 100% right.
- [21:56]
Fred Katz
And then Imuka gets there and they're like one of the most disciplined teams in the NBA. Yes. And they're really good.
- [22:02]
Woj (Big Woz)
Yes.
- [22:02]
Fred Katz
And the talent is all developing and they are, they're smart, they are disciplined. They, they run a beautiful system. Defensively, they're awesome. And it helps to have Amin Thompson, but they, they are awesome. Emu DOK is great and he did the same thing in Boston. Takes over in Boston and it's like, holy crap, this, this team guards, this team plays gorgeous basketball. Emea Doka is great. And they called on Ime Odoka. I think the Rockets very unkindly told them to go screw themselves and that was it. I, I, I don't think any of these teams were amenable to it. I don't know if they made a call on Eric Spoelstra. I would bet an unbelievable amount of money that if they just made a, they wouldn't have an opportunity to offer xpuls or anything that, like, if they called if, like James Dolan called Mickey Harrison or if Leon Rose called Pat Riley and was like, what can we do to get Eric Spoelstra? I like Pat Riley. Pat Riley. I can't even imagine Pat Riley would say something so foul that neither of us could even think up. It's Pat Riley. Like, neither of us could even think up what it would be. So I don't think you're getting that guy. Like, I think what they felt like they needed was they felt like they needed less than an, an, an upgrade in a vacuum. Because, like, I think, I think Mike Brown is a very good coach. He's had a lot of success.
- [23:33]
Woj (Big Woz)
I'm a fan of Mike Brown.
- [23:35]
Fred Katz
He's a good coach.
- [23:36]
Woj (Big Woz)
I'm going to get into my problem with the hire, but, like, I'm a fan of Mike Brown's coaching and, and.
- [23:41]
Fred Katz
Tibbs is a good coach.
- [23:42]
Woj (Big Woz)
Yes.
- [23:43]
Fred Katz
Both guys have had success everywhere. They've Been. Let's say they're in the same tier of coaching. We can debate who's better, but let's.
- [23:52]
Woj (Big Woz)
Say they're around same tier.
- [23:54]
Fred Katz
Yeah, around the same tier. Right. I think what the Knicks felt like they needed less than an upgrade in a vacuum. Less than like, yeah, like Eric Spolster is the best coach in the league. Eric Spolster is one of the greatest coaches, like in any sport of all time. He's unbelievable. He's obviously in a different tier than probably anybody in the NBA. I think what the Knicks felt like they needed wasn't necessarily, oh, we need an upgrade from Tibbs on, like, if you do the rankings of the best coaches, we need somebody hired in Tibbs. What we need is somebody who's going to have a different approach and a different voice. Somebody who's going to be able to figure out the stuff with Bridges. Somebody who's going to be able to figure out the stuff with. With og Somebody who's going to be able to maybe experiment more in the regular season when we know this roster is very good and this we. We don't care if we win 50 games in the regular season or if we win 54. What we want to have is this entire set of data on all the lineups that work and all the players that work. And we want to see if Deuce McBride with the starters works and that kind of stuff. So we're not just kind of throwing shit at the wall during the playoffs and seeing if Delon Wright sticks. Like, I think that's what they wanted. They wanted somebody who I think was more collaborative, specifically even with, with the coaching staff. They wanted more of a flow influx and a flow of ideas, I think, from the coaching staff up to the coach. And I know that's how Mike Brown operated in Sacramento. And that was something they were very impressed with. In some ways, Mike Brown is very similar to Tibs. Mike Brown practices more than Tibbs does. People think Tibbs practices all the time. Tibbs requires people to physically be there because what he does is he does like these walkthroughs and he does longer film sessions than usual and, and his practices and his walkthroughs and his shoot arounds are very mentally strenuous. He quizzes players like, he'll be like, all right, they'll draw some up on the whiteboard during a walkthrough or during a film session and he'll just be like, all right, Jaylen, what play is this? And you know that the other team runs like upcoming Opponent, you got no top five most run plays. You got to know Jaylen, what play is this? Josh, what play is this? And he'll just run it and you got to get it right. Like his, his practices are very, very, you got to be locked in and they're very like intellectually stimulating. It's like going into a really intense, you know, advanced class with a really intense and passionate and strict professor. Mike Brown practices a lot and like practices for real. He wants to go live. Like Tibbs almost never goes live. Like Mike Brown wants to go, wants to go live. He wants to practice a lot. He's very defense oriented. He's super detail oriented. He's very obsessive about that kind of stuff. There are a lot of things that are very similar about Mike Brown that there are Tibbs. And to be clear, those are all great traits for a coach. I love, I love all those traits in a coach, like having traits similar to Tibbs. That's great.
- [27:06]
Woj (Big Woz)
Tibbs is really good.
- [27:09]
Fred Katz
He's really good. I, I hear some other things on.
- [27:13]
Woj (Big Woz)
Mike Brown and I like. And I did want to get into the qualities of Mike Brown. I'm just saying just to put a bow on it. Like, yes, I know in practice Eric Spoelstra and Steve Kurt aren't available. I just know when you got the money in business and in the NBA with these guys are like all in league with each other. If you really, really, really set your mind on making it happen, I think it could have happened. Of course it would have cost you. Right. You would have had to convince Spoelstra or Kerr to start tugging on that end themselves. It's not gonna just be some passive thing where it's like we knock on the door and Mickey Arison answers and we're just like, hey, can Eric come outside to play? No. You would have had to be in cahoots with Spoelstra and his representation or Kerr and his representation. You couldn't have pulled it off on your own. I just think where there's a will, there's a way, particularly with the coaching stuff, where there aren't these hard and fast rules like and a collective bargaining agreement, et cetera, et cetera. There's ways to paint outside the lines. And for whatever reason, the Knicks decided for this team it's not worth it. Mind you, you already paying the shit out of OG. You already gave up 7 first round picks for Bridges. But for the coach, we're just going to passively play it safe. I don't understand that approach. Fred, I get it. I like Mike Brown and I'm going to get into that. I just think this approach is weird when you consider the way that they've gone about doing this roster, going out and getting talented. Like, it just felt so gun shy to me. For a team that's so obviously all in, it's weird. But I want to get into. Before we get into Mike Brown and the qualities that he brings. Another reason why I'm unsure about the hire is these dudes, particularly Brunson specifically. He's now been made into probably the biggest athlete in the number one media market in the world. Right? He is. He's beyond a star. He is something beyond that. He's gotten there by playing a particular way that in my opinion is sub optimal for Knicks team success. 60% usage in clutch time by a 5 foot 11 guard is a mistake. I'm sorry. I get it. It's made Jalen Brunson into who he is. But I don't think the Knicks can win a championship playing like that. And the idea that Mike Brown is going to be the one to come in and tell that dude that he needs to do something, I think radically different. You gonna have to sell that to me. Fred Katz. Mike Brown. Mike Brown's gonna be the one. That's why I think bringing somebody in with some level of gravitas and a pedigree that even the players, even Jalen Brunson has to be like, hold on now. This is Steve Kerr. This is not Gregg Popovich, but you get what I'm saying. This is X, Y and Z. I might have to listen to this. Like, why are they going to listen to Mike Brown? And if they're not, that means they're just going to do the same shit they did last year. That's my issue with the Brown hire. And tell me why I'm wrong.
- [30:56]
Fred Katz
Yeah, I don't agree with you and I'll tell you why. I think that might be true for certain stars in the league. That's just not how Jalen Brunson operates. Jalen is so obsessed with winning, so psychopathically competitive in a way that is not individually oriented. I think Jalen played that way because. Not because that's how he plays. I think Jalen played that way because that was how it was coached and that's what he thought was the best way for them to win in that moment. I'll tell you something. So two years ago, Julius Randle gets hurt in a game against Miami. He dislocates his shoulder out for the year. The Knicks had to reorient their offense after that because Randle was. Was their outlet in a lot of places. Right. Like, this was Brunson's second year with the Knicks, and it's really Brunson's team at this point. Brunson runs the offense, but Randall is the outlet. Randall gives them a second way to get into the paint. He can post guys up, he can drive. And he was having a good year. Actually a really good year. Made. Made. Made an all star team. He was having a really good year for them. And with no Randle, teams could just load up on Brunson. So what did the Knicks do? They changed the way that they use Jalen Brunson. He's always been good, running around screens, off the ball. They started using him way more running around screens. So I'm looking at the numbers right now. So Randall gets hurt on January 27th of that season. After January 27th of that season, Jalen Brunson ran around. Let's see. Jalen Brunson ran around 715 off ball screens. How many players in the NBA ran around more off ball screens during that?
- [32:56]
Woj (Big Woz)
Steph Curry.
- [32:57]
Fred Katz
Nope. You're close. What is Steph's teammate, Klay Thompson? Not Neymar's teammate, Klay Thompson.
- [33:07]
Woj (Big Woz)
That's the only person.
- [33:09]
Fred Katz
Wow. That's the only guy. Jalen ran around the second most off ball screens in the league for the rest of that season. And it worked. They were able to get him the ball around curls. He was able to play make off.
- [33:22]
Woj (Big Woz)
You're getting me excited about the next season, Frank.
- [33:25]
Fred Katz
He was able to get through his floater. He was really good at it. And why did he do it? Because Tibs came to him and said, I think with Julius out, this is the best way to use you. And Jaylen said, okay, sure. With Jaylen, the only thing he cares. He is very, very, very smart when it comes to basketball. And he thinks like a coach because he's the son of a coach. A lot of sons of coaches are like this. A lot of sons of coaches think this way. And so with Jalen, I don't think it matters who gives him the message. And I think it barely matters how someone gives him the message because he's able to take things very harshly and he's able to take things that he doesn't want things sugarcoated to him. He wants the full message in order to get better. And if you want to know why, all you got to do is go look up the video of his dad coaching him when he was like 12 years old. His dad saying things to him that nobody has ever said to anybody else ever. And you're like, oh, my goodness, how is he able to deal with this? So Jalen can be coached in any way because of the way that he was raised, because of that. And with Jalen, the way that you get him to buy into something is you tell him something that's really smart and then you show him, here's why I think it's going to work. And you show him the plan and you map it out and you show him the video and you pull out the clipboard and you show them everything. You say, this is what I think is going to work. This is the best way to win. And if you're smart, Jalen's going to ask follow up questions and they're going to be smart follow up questions. And if you've got good answers and you're smart and you're thinking it's going to work, Jalen's going to be like, this is great, I'm in. So I don't think Jalen gives a crap whether. First of all, I do think you're kind of underselling Mike Brown. Like, no, no, no, no, no.
- [35:15]
Woj (Big Woz)
I'm going to get into Mike Brown. Mike Brown is.
- [35:17]
Fred Katz
He's not a first time head coach.
- [35:19]
Woj (Big Woz)
Like, he's Mike Brown. I'm not saying. I personally think if Mike Brown is allowed to coach, the Knicks are going to be a way better team than they were last year. I really do personally think that if you watch his evolution as a coach when he took over Sacramento, spending all that time in Golden State. You watch Sacramento's offense, it's way prettier than everything the Knicks did last year. And this is what goddamn demon is a bonus. I mean, demonic Sabonis and de' Aaron Fox, who I like, those two guys are not in the same planet of offensive talent, of Karl Towns and like, it's not even close and what he was able to do with them. I'm in on Mike Brown, but I know NBA players aren't always in on the guys that me and you like. Fred, they have these weird things where it's like, I'm not listening to that guy. I'm not. What the fuck does he know? Like, they have these weird things. They will get a coach fired because they don't think a coach knows what he's doing. I'm just saying Mike Brown doesn't come in as unimpeachable. You know, like, there is a way to sort of poo poo what he's done. I'm not saying that I would personally do that, but we know that players, for whatever reason, will see a guy and be like, this ain't it. And do whatever they feel like doing. That's all I'm saying.
- [36:52]
Fred Katz
Totally. I'll tell you this, and I can.
- [36:54]
Woj (Big Woz)
Tell you this, I want to say this one last thing so I can let you go.
- [36:57]
Fred Katz
Yeah.
- [36:58]
Woj (Big Woz)
I love to have my mind changed. And Fred Katz is slowly turning me on the New York Knicks season right now.
- [37:07]
Fred Katz
You're right. You're totally right with what you're saying. I'm just saying I don't think that concept is to Jalen Brunson. I don't think it applies to Jalen Brunson. He thinks differently. He's a different kind of guy. He's a different kind of guy. And I think he cares about three things. And if you meet those three things, he will back you. Number one, are you going to do what's best for the team over what's best for the individual? If you do what's best for the individual, you're going to piss him off. Number two, are you going to meet his work ethic? Are you going to be there working as hard as he is every second? And if you're not, he's not going to be happy about that. And if you are, he will take you under his wing. He's, for example, really close with Deuce McBride because Deuce McBride is a worker and he's a competitor, and he shows up every day. He's a very unselfish teammate, and he never complains about not getting time with the starters or anything like that. Nobody knows how Deuce McBride feels about that. Nobody knows because he never has said anything, and he wouldn't. And he's very close with Deuce McBride because of. That was not the case with the.
- [38:19]
Woj (Big Woz)
Previous young Nick Crew. That wasn't the case with IQ and R.J. perry.
- [38:25]
Fred Katz
Yeah, yeah, that's true. I. Look, I don't think. I don't think IQ was actually iq never really said that much. It's not like he was in there being like, I need more time. I need this. However, it became clear that he wanted to get paid like a starter. And when he was playing 24 minutes a game in his last year with the Knicks, that just wasn't really going to happen. And so there was a disconnect there. But I wouldn't. I wouldn't say he was like a.
- [38:54]
Woj (Big Woz)
Bitching all the time.
- [38:55]
Fred Katz
Yeah, yeah, he wasn't like a problem. Like, there wasn't anyone in that locker room who, like, didn't like him or anything like that. But they were also, like. It was more of a vibe with. With quickly of like, yeah, he wants to get paid. And then they were like, yeah, of course he wants to get paid. It was like guys being like, yeah, I get it. Like, why wouldn't. Why wouldn't you want to get paid? Like, I want to get paid, too.
- [39:19]
Woj (Big Woz)
But we have Jalen Brunson. Right?
- [39:21]
Fred Katz
But we have Jalen. Like, they were more just like, yeah, it sucks for him. That sucks for him, you know, but, like, I don't think there was any ill will to him for him on a personal level, because I don't think he ever acted like there are guys who want to get paid and they become unprofessional. I've never heard any stories about him being unprofessional or anything like that. But everybody was a notoriously, really hard.
- [39:41]
Woj (Big Woz)
Worker, and everybody knew where he stood.
- [39:44]
Fred Katz
But everybody knew where he stood. So, like, you wanted to get paid, and then he did, and he got paid more than anybody thought he was going to get paid, too. And with. With Jalen, it's the three things. It's. It's. Are you going to meet my work ethic? Are you going to. Are you going to do what's best for the team all the time? And then it's, are you going to have a level of, like, detail orientation and care for what you do? Mike Brown is really detail oriented. I wrote a whole story a couple months ago about kind of like his very obsessive compulsive tendencies, not just in basketball, but, like, in life. He's very, very detail oriented. I think that will actually mesh well with Brunson. Those are the things that he cares about. And if you can get him on that, like, he'll. He'll buy in. Like, he. He really just wants to. There's a reason why they made him the captain. It's not because he's the best player on the team. It's because of his personality, his approach.
- [40:56]
Woj (Big Woz)
To me. Mike Brown, job number one is this idea that Karl Towns can be some kind of decoy or some kind of afterthought in how you attack the best defenses. That just can't be. And for too much of the Knicks most important possessions of the season, Carl Towns was a non factor. Um, and I just think that's. That was suboptimal, man. Like, it's not just that you're paying him that much, it's like what he actually has to offer. He has way more to offer to an offense than what the Knicks were asking of him last year. And to me, that's a Thibodeau thing, right? And again, it's like, well, we rode in on the jailingship. We're gonna sink with the jailingship to an extent. I get that. And Jalen, like, let's not make no mistake, like, this guy is the best clutch player in the fucking NBA. Like, I understand the tendency to go to run towards that. I just, you can't be the best team in the east playing that way. Like, this can't be 2001, Iverson and the fucking Pips. Like, you have Carl Townsend, you have og, you have Mikhail, who's now paid up, right? Like, there needs to be a focus on incorporating all of these guys. And Mike Brown, to his credit in Sacramento, man, like, they did have a more sort of the ball finds energy approach to offense, which I personally have more of a taste for than what Brunson is doing in the clutch where he's pounding the shit out the Rock possession after possession. And so talk to me about, like, what you think Mike Brown is going to do differently because the Knicks, like, and that's why I got to give it up to Leon and them. Like, they saw it. We all could see it. It's like the best teams don't play like this. Indiana doesn't play like this. OKC doesn't play like this. Denver doesn't play like this. And so I'm happy that the front office had the vision to be like, what we're watching isn't championship quality. How is Mike Brown going to address these issues?
- [43:21]
Fred Katz
Well, I think it's also not just Mike Brown, it's also like Chris Gentleford, assistant who we brought in, who's going to be responsible for light of the offense and is really well respected. It's going to be Ricky Fua, who's another guy who's been with Mike Brown before, who's almost this very. It's very analytically slanted. They have a. They were. They're retaining a good amount of assistant coaches, but they have a number of assistant coaches too that are going to be doing it. And I think one of the things that they liked about Mike Brown was that you mentioned that offense in Sacramento. So it was 2022, I guess, Mike Brown's first year in Sacramento, where he goes there and that team makes the playoffs for the first time since you Know the van beer in glue.
- [44:08]
Woj (Big Woz)
Yeah.
- [44:08]
Fred Katz
Yeah. It's like Monroe Doctrine. So they make. They make the playoffs for the first time in forever and they have the number one ranked offense in the league. And it was the most efficient offense of all time based on points per possession and Mike Brown and the starting.
- [44:31]
Woj (Big Woz)
Center was demonic Sabonis.
- [44:34]
Fred Katz
Yeah. Well, I don't know. I don't love this. I don't love this whole on demonic Sabonis thing, by the way.
- [44:41]
Woj (Big Woz)
It's a bit I've been doing for three years.
- [44:43]
Fred Katz
The bonus has his flaws. The. Holy crap, that dude can pass. And he is so strong.
- [44:50]
Woj (Big Woz)
Yeah, he plays hard. He has a great motor. He does.
- [44:54]
Fred Katz
And he's so strong.
- [44:55]
Woj (Big Woz)
Yeah.
- [44:56]
Fred Katz
Like there is a reason. He's led the league of rebounds three years in a row. He is so strong. How many centers can grab, rebound, lead a fast break and it's like, it's like what you want. It's like, oh, there. That defense is screwed.
- [45:13]
Woj (Big Woz)
They're not on the same planet of offensive players. Carl Towns. They're not. No.
- [45:18]
Fred Katz
He's not as good as Cart.
- [45:19]
Woj (Big Woz)
It's not even like I'm talking about just offensively. What you bring to the table is just like, there's no. There's no context.
- [45:27]
Fred Katz
I'm not arguing he's not as good as Karl Anthony Towns.
- [45:30]
Woj (Big Woz)
I'm just saying. I'm just saying he makes offense in the league out of demonic Sabonis and he deserves a.
- [45:39]
Fred Katz
And he's Jewish.
- [45:41]
Woj (Big Woz)
Sabonis is.
- [45:42]
Fred Katz
Yeah, he just converted.
- [45:44]
Woj (Big Woz)
Oh, my God.
- [45:46]
Fred Katz
There's a. There's a. If there is finally between him and Denny Abdia, we finally have some good basketball players in the NBA.
- [45:55]
Woj (Big Woz)
Get Omri Cassie on the line.
- [45:58]
Fred Katz
No, forget about all that was. All we had before. All we had was Omri Caspi and we had like Dolph shays in the 1950s. Now we've actually got Sabonis.
- [46:09]
Woj (Big Woz)
Yeah. Jordan Farmer. Jordan Farmer.
- [46:12]
Fred Katz
Yeah. No, Sabonis, the all star, all NBA player. Denny Avdia is really good.
- [46:18]
Woj (Big Woz)
Very. Be very happy that you mentioned him.
- [46:21]
Fred Katz
Denny Avdi is really good. We got. We got two legit good Jewish players. And I'm very, very excited about that. It's really. It's really inspiring.
- [46:31]
Woj (Big Woz)
Crazy right now for cats, but we're gonna allow it. We're gonna. We're gonna allow.
- [46:38]
Fred Katz
Brown goes into that. That team and they start. They start running it really around Sabonis. Right? Like, that whole offense is about getting downhill off of Sabonus. Dribble handoffs and part of the reason they have that offense is because it's, it's not really. I mean, it is a Mike Brown thing, Don't get me wrong. He implements it, but he's got two assistants there. Jay Trano, who's now in Dallas and has been a head coach before, and Jordy Fernando is not well respected coach of the Nets.
- [47:08]
Woj (Big Woz)
Jordy Fernandez, another guy who I swear by, like, I think he is a fantastic coach.
- [47:14]
Fred Katz
He did a really, really, really good job. He did too good of a job last year.
- [47:19]
Woj (Big Woz)
Facts, like facts.
- [47:22]
Fred Katz
He screwed his own team. He was too good. They were like, oh, crap. First time head coach, we thought there'd be a learning curve. This guy's just winning games with nothing off the bat. Yeah, no, he's really good. And so Jordy Fernandez and Jay Triano were very, very instrumental in putting together that offense. And Mike Brown was, was for a lot of his career, he was a defensive guy. When he first went to Golden State as a assistant, he actually technically ran the offense. However, I've spoken to people from Golden State during that time and they, they certainly don't. I mean, people there speak incredibly highly.
- [47:58]
Woj (Big Woz)
People love Mike Brown over there.
- [48:00]
Fred Katz
Yeah.
- [48:01]
Woj (Big Woz)
In the Bay.
- [48:01]
Fred Katz
Yeah, they don't, they certainly don't mean this as a slight, but basically what they've said to me is like, yeah, Mike Brown went there, but like we already kind of had this unbelievable offense already intact, like running the offense. It's not like he built it from scratch. He was his job.
- [48:16]
Woj (Big Woz)
It's not really about building it, Fred. It's like understanding principles and concepts of why and what is working and how you get it to. And like watching it every day and be like, oh, that's why this thing works. And being able to take that and apply it somewhere else in a different context. Like, I don't need the guy to be, you know, the inventor of seven seconds or less. Right. Like, you don't need to be some revolutionary offensive mind. But he's there every day and clearly gain an understanding about what makes quality offensive basketball.
- [48:55]
Fred Katz
Yep, for sure. And. And the reason why I bring up the assistance and stuff is because I think I know part of the reason why the Knicks liked Mike Brown was because of that collaboration stuff. And when people hear collaboration, they think collaboration with the front office and that's part of it. But there's also collaboration with the players and there's collaboration with your coaching staff. And Mike Brown was able to say, all right, Jay Triano and Jordy Fernandez came up with this offense. This looks real Good. I'm going to implement that. That's better than what I came up with. And I'm going to recognize that. I'm going to have the self awareness and the humility to recognize that and do that. And I'll handle the stuff I'm really good at, the stuff that is not as much my strength because nobody's perfect. I'm going to recognize it's not as much my strength. I'm going to hire people who are going to work with me who are going to be really good at those things and I'm going to let them do it. And I'm smart enough to be able to recognize, okay, this is good or this is bad. I know enough to be able to recognize something's good, recognize something's not good when I see it. And I know enough to be able to ask the questions. Mike Brown is known as a pretty collaborative coach. And one of the things that I've. I spoke to one of his former assistant coaches and he was telling me what you have to do is if you have an idea, he always wants you to come up to him with the idea. But what he does is his practice is he will then ask you ridiculously difficult follow up questions to your idea to make sure that you have. And he's like, he's not doing it to be a jerk.
- [50:29]
Woj (Big Woz)
No, he's doing it. You actually have thought this through.
- [50:32]
Fred Katz
Yep. He wants to know that you've gone like 12 layers deep on this because that's how he expects guys to be. Which is, by the way, why I expect him, him and Jalen to mesh well, to mesh because they have similar approaches there. And so if you can do that and you can go those 12 layers deep, he'll be like, okay. And then he might be like, we're doing your idea.
- [50:56]
Woj (Big Woz)
Yeah.
- [50:57]
Fred Katz
And, and, and so a lot of it will fall on kind of how he comes up with this stuff with his staff as well, which he's still in the process of hiring. I expect them to hire at least one or two other people.
- [51:12]
Woj (Big Woz)
I mean, it's getting kind of late, bro. Like, it's about to be September.
- [51:15]
Fred Katz
They hired it late.
- [51:17]
Woj (Big Woz)
Yeah, Fair.
- [51:19]
Fred Katz
You know, like they didn't fire Tibbs until June because they had such a late run. It's, it's an unusual timeline because it was an unusual firing. Normally if hiring have a team doesn't make the playoffs.
- [51:29]
Woj (Big Woz)
Right.
- [51:29]
Fred Katz
Middle of April and then you do it and it's like, I don't think they're gonna hire like a high High up. Number one assistant, I think that's Chris Jetta. But. But, like, I think they're going to add. Add at least one or two other people to their staff. I think they're going to add a analytics person to their staff would be my guess. I know that's something Mike Brown values. They had somebody last year who worked closely with Tibbs on that, but he left. And so I think they're going to hire somebody to replace there. They had another analytics person leave, too. I. I don't know what they're going to do about that, but I think they're going to. I think they're going to bring in some more people and it's going to depend on. It's going to depend on the staff, but I imagine the offense will look different. And I also wonder, like, the stuff. Towns was unbelievable in the first half of the season, and then as the year went on, teams started to realize, let's just put wings on him. And that's something that teams have always done, and they always did it when they had elite smalls. So, like, Boston would always do it because Boston would put Tatum on him.
- [52:33]
Woj (Big Woz)
It's almost like the dark principle, basically, with Towns.
- [52:37]
Fred Katz
Yeah, Porzingis gets that treatment, too. Boston would do it with Drew Holiday. What I always thought was kind of the. The change in tone was at the end of 2024, end of December, the Knicks played two games in Washington against the Wizards, and they won both those games. Towns had huge games in both those games, but Justin Champagne guarded him for both of those games. And that, to me, was like the first time where I was like, oh, like there's a team doing this and they're doing it with a guy who's not very good. Elite. Yeah, they're not doing. Teams were doing it when they had a guy who was, you know, an awesome wing defender. You know, Houston did it with Dylan Brooks, guarded him like, Dylan Brooks is competitive as hell. Say what you want about Dylan Brooks, I don't think anyone's ever accused him of not fighting hard and being physical. And that dude can guard and. And so like that. Those are the types. Drew Holiday. Those are the types that were doing it. And that was the first time we saw a team do it because they were just like, we're going to put a wing on him. And what happens is when Town has a wing on him. And the Knicks started running pick and rolls, there was a center guarding Josh Hart. The Knicks would run pick and rolls at the center. So the Knicks. So Brunson would start running more pick and rolls with Josh Hart than he would with Towns. And Towns would kind of be absent from the offense. At the end of the year. I did a story. I went through every single Knicks game. I counted whether Towns had a wing, SL or a small as his primary defender or a wing as his primary defender. And I went through the pick and roll data for each of the games. And in games where there was a big as Towns's primary defender, he ran 27 pick and rolls per 100 possessions or per game, I should say. And when he had a small as his primary defender, he only ran 16 pick and rolls, so 11 fewer. It was almost, it was almost in half to me.
- [54:39]
Woj (Big Woz)
That's crazy because the guy who's guarding Jalen Brunson, you want him to switch on the Towns? That's something you should invite. Like, I, I don't know. Again, whatever. I'm not an NBA coach. We can get into, we can get into that later in the season and we'll see how it goes. But just, you know, to sort of tie up on the Mike Brown thing again. Like when my Knick fan friends were hitting me about the high, I was like, I think Mike Brown is a good ass coach. I think if he's allowed to coach the team that they will be better. I don't know that he will be allowed to. Fred Katz is up here telling me today, take it to the bank. He's going to be allowed to implement his shit. The guys are gonna, he's gonna have a level of buy in from day one and I think that's incredible. I think Nick fans should be excited about that. I just want to get you out of here because I do want to.
- [55:32]
Sponsor Announcer
This episode is brought to you by Bleacher Report. Football is back and downloading the Bleacher Report app puts you in the middle of the action. Make Bleacher Report your go to this season for the fastest breaking news alerts covering NFL and college football. And don't miss a moment with highlights, scores and live reactions in the app. Get expert analysis on your favorite teams and the news that you want this season. Download the Bleacher Report app today. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. If there's one thing I'm going to make sure I pack for my summer vacation, it's my Apple Card. I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including fuel for my car and booking places to stay. Plus, I don't have to worry about fees, including foreign transaction fees, which is Perfect. When I'm planning to travel abroad to get an Apple card for your summer travels, apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of July 1, 2025 Terms and more@applecard.com this episode is brought to you by the Home Depot. Labor Day savings are happening right now at the Home Depot so you can get more out of your outdoor space this fall. The Home Depot has a wide selection of cordless outdoor power equipment that makes it easy to clear your lawn starting at just $79. You gotta love a power tool. Then why not make those colors pop with string lights and mums that bloom all season long? Shop Labor Day savings now through September 3rd, only at the Home Depot.
- [57:11]
Woj (Big Woz)
Get you on the record, man. What is an acceptable outcome of the Knicks season?
- [57:19]
Fred Katz
I have two answers. So after the Knicks fired Tibbs, the front office put out a very short statement that said, that said that they were, quote, singularly focused on winning a title. And the reason that they made the change to move on from Tom Thibodeau was because they were singularly focused on winning a title and they felt like this was the move they had to make in order to accomplish that. Which you don't have to read between the lines to say the Knicks think this is a title team and their coach is holding them back from being a title team. Now, I will say I don't agree with that.
- [58:09]
Woj (Big Woz)
Okay. I don't agree.
- [58:12]
Fred Katz
I think there are tons of coaches who are labeled as, you can't win a title with this guy. And then they win a title. And then we're like, that's a championship winning coach. Michael Maloney, you couldn't win a title with him. He was too rigid. Mike Budenholzer, he couldn't win a title with him. He was too ridges. I mean, Doc Rivers got the full treatment. Doc Rivers, you couldn't win a title with him. Then he won a title. Then it was like, Doc Rivers is a championship winning coach. And now we're like, Doc Rivers. You can't win a title with him. Doc Rivers has gone a million different directions. Yeah, 100%. Frank Fogle, same thing. Can't win a title with Frank Vogel. And then you win a title with Frank Vogel. And I put. I would put Tibbs in that category as a guy you can't win a title with until you actually win a title.
- [58:54]
Woj (Big Woz)
So you disagree in the idea that Tibbs is a guy that you can win a title with?
- [58:59]
Fred Katz
Okay, yeah, I disagree with that.
- [59:01]
Woj (Big Woz)
But you agree with the idea that the Knicks have a championship roster?
- [59:06]
Fred Katz
No.
- [59:07]
Woj (Big Woz)
Really agree with that?
- [59:08]
Fred Katz
I don't, I don't agree with that. I think they have a really good roster and I think they have a roster that, that could win the title. But I don't think they're the best team in the league like Oklahoma City's. Oklahoma City is the best team in the league. That being said from the Knicks perspective, because they put out that statement, the organization has to say, like, if they don't at least make the finals, then they didn't meet their goal because they explicitly said their goal and that was it. And quite honestly, I thought it was a swipe at Tibbs and that man did so much for that organization and took so much heat for things of that organization when nobody else would talk publicly. I didn't love that. Thought it was unnecessary. I didn't really like that in that statement. I will say a successful season for them is. It depends on how good Cleveland is. I'm going to probably pick them to win the East.
- [60:26]
Woj (Big Woz)
Pick who? Cleveland or the Knicks?
- [60:28]
Fred Katz
I'm going to probably pick the Knicks to win the East.
- [60:31]
Woj (Big Woz)
Okay.
- [60:32]
Fred Katz
I'm probably going to pick them to win the East. So it kind of depends on if, if Cleveland is able to overcome their playoff demons. But I want to pick the Knicks to win the East. And I'm going to say like it's hard to say if a team makes the conference finals and Cleveland is awesome.
- [60:48]
Woj (Big Woz)
I think anything less than a hyper competitive Eastern Conference finals showing where you either win or it's just a crazy competitive series you've underachieved in this Eastern Conference.
- [61:02]
Fred Katz
I agree. Cause the east is too weak.
- [61:04]
Woj (Big Woz)
Like you lose to, you lose to Orlando in the second round or Atlanta, that's a failure. Or Detroit, who you beat last year, that's a failure.
- [61:14]
Fred Katz
So I mean don't forget was they.
- [61:16]
Woj (Big Woz)
They, bro, they could have lost that Detroit series.
- [61:19]
Fred Katz
They barely beat Detroit.
- [61:20]
Woj (Big Woz)
They could have, they could have lost that series.
- [61:22]
Fred Katz
They barely beat Detroit. Like that was a six game series and they were up 3:1. But like game four in Detroit, they, they, they won that game on, on because of a terrible call. That's why they won that game.
- [61:37]
Woj (Big Woz)
Yeah.
- [61:37]
Fred Katz
If a terrible call at the end of that game is not made Detroit wins that game is 2. 2. They barely beat Detroit. Then they, then they, then they lose game five. To make it three, two at home. And what could have been a closeout game and game six, they barely win like Detroit was. That was a rough. That was. That was a close series every game. I think the final five games of that series was within. Were within one possession.
- [62:04]
Woj (Big Woz)
And it was a series where it felt like they had no answers on defense, like they were searching. And Detroit was not some sick offense. They were whatever again.
- [62:17]
Fred Katz
But you know what? They. They found something with their wings defensively in that series, because what happened was for the whole year, it was basically Mikhail Bridges on the point of attack and OG on the big forward.
- [62:32]
Woj (Big Woz)
That was a mistake.
- [62:34]
Fred Katz
Well, they flipped it for the playoffs, and you had OG On Cade Cunningham and you had Mikhail Bridges more off the ball, and OG did a great job. And Bridges in the playoffs reached a level that I think the Knicks were hoping that they were going to get from him and didn't see from him the whole year.
- [62:57]
Woj (Big Woz)
And what's crazy, if you actually look at the game logs, it's not like this guy was, like, lighting it on fire. It's just. He was just so much more impactful than, like, you felt Mikhail Bridges way more in games than you did all regular season. And I think that's what it's going to take. I think Mikhail, OG, they have to take more ownership of the offense, particularly in the regular season, to give these guys to give Brunson some rest on his legs where he's not just carrying these guys and just eating up possession after possession. I tend to agree with you. I just think, you know, Easter Conference, the Cavs, I think, are going to be pretty damn good again. I think they're going to be even better than they were last year, which is saying something. And I think, you know, a guy like Mobley, like, getting a taste of the postseason and, like, having a better understanding of what's required of him specifically, you know, you wonder if he's going to take another leap. So I think them in Cleveland are just obvious. It's, like, not. We're not making some, like, astute observations. Those are the. That's the class of the east to me, and that's who they should be looking at as their main competitors. And, you know, hopefully they get out of the East.
- [64:07]
Fred Katz
But yeah, man, that's the team. Who's the team below the Knicks in Cleveland that scares you the most?
- [64:14]
Woj (Big Woz)
I mean, to me, it's Orlando by far. If. If Jalen Suggs is healthy, and I realize that's a big if, I think they're going to, like, be incredible because he does it like Jalen Suggs, to me, does for Orlando. What N. Smith and Nemhard combined do for Indiana, where it's like the toughness quotient has just turned to 1000 because of Neesmith and Nemhard. And now, like, Indiana becomes, like, not just this pace and finesse team. They become this, like, physicality team. On top of that, I think.
- [64:53]
Fred Katz
With.
- [64:53]
Woj (Big Woz)
Suggs, it's like, it's the same, but it's different. It's like it's now turning Orlando into, like, a sledgehammer, a freaking axe. Like, they're going to hit you, like, really hard if Suggs is able to stay on the court. And that's. To me, that's going to give them an elite quality, right? Like, that physicality, that toughness, that athleticism that they could bring when all of their guys are actually on the floor is something that teams just can't replicate. Like, that's just different. And so having some elite quality, whether it's like shooting or in a Magic case, toughness and athleticism in Indies case is pace. In Denver's case, it's like, insane execution level. Like, you need some kind of elite quality to be a scary team. And I think the magic, to me, on paper anyway, are the team that I think possesses that.
- [65:49]
Fred Katz
Yeah, I think that's a good one. I think. I agree. And they can throw a lot of different types of defenders at Brunson because you can have. You can have Suggs guard him. And Suggs is. Oh, my goodness, he is just so crazy. Something else. But then you can also, for like, 15 minutes. Not more than 15 minutes, but for like, 15 minutes, you could be like, all right, Jonathan Isaac. Yeah, yeah, Like. Like, Jonathan Isaac can go do it. Jonathan Isaac has guarded Brunson. Jonathan Isaac is such a good Jalen Brunson defender. That dude. If that dude could play more than 15 minutes, I know he'd. He'd be in the conversation.
- [66:26]
Woj (Big Woz)
He'd be making a lot more money, too, for defensive player of the year. I think Detroit. I think people were sleeping on Detroit because of the disjointed nature of the off season, where they're about to pay Beasley and have to pivot to Duncan Robinson and all of this stuff. I just think the internal improvement of the young guys should get them to a new gear. And so I think Detroit's going to be really good as well. I just think Orlando just. I don't know, man. I also think people are sleeping on the Bane thing, where People are like, oh, they overpaid him. Like, no, they didn't. This guy is a high quality player at a position of need that like, is so glaring and obvious. He so obviously fits that need and you know, he's learned to be not a scrub on defense. And so I just think the, the athletic profile of this team is, is just something else. And now that they have some quality shooting and Suggs finally got some goddamn shots to fall last year, I'm. I'm a big, big, big, big magic believer. If they can stay home, I'm, I'm.
- [67:39]
Fred Katz
Very intrigued with Atlanta.
- [67:41]
Woj (Big Woz)
I'm intrigued, but I'm not doing, I'm not falling for the Atlanta thing again. They, they, they burned me too many times, bro.
- [67:48]
Fred Katz
Like, this might be, this might be the time maybe, maybe look at, look at all of the types of guys they have around Trey Young now. It's now all of these long, athletic, defensive minded. Like Dyson Daniels is the best defensive guard in the NBA.
- [68:08]
Woj (Big Woz)
He's insane.
- [68:09]
Fred Katz
Maybe he's insane.
- [68:10]
Woj (Big Woz)
Crazy.
- [68:12]
Fred Katz
Jalen Johnson, he has to play. He has to play. He also might be the most underrated player in the NBA right now. Cuz, cuz what they did last podcast.
- [68:22]
Woj (Big Woz)
What they did last me and Rob Mahoney, like you would swear this guy was goddamn Kevin Garnett the way Mahoney. And he's talking about this too.
- [68:31]
Fred Katz
But like what they did last year, allowing him to put the, like putting the ball in his hand so much more, turning him into more of a facilitator and a passer.
- [68:39]
Woj (Big Woz)
Everything he could do everything.
- [68:41]
Fred Katz
And they've just, they've just surrounded him with these long, athletic guys. I actually thought Reese's Shay was very encouraging last year, especially from a defensive standpoint.
- [68:51]
Woj (Big Woz)
He's good. He's never going to make nobody's all star team, but he's a, like he's going to be in a upper echelon role player. I think.
- [68:59]
Fred Katz
I agree with that. I agree with that.
- [69:00]
Woj (Big Woz)
Sucks for number one pick, but you.
- [69:02]
Fred Katz
Know, yeah, but you know, that was, that was the draft. It's not like that was not like that was a bad pick. It was just, that was just not a, just not a good draft. And you know what? The world is sleeping on Kristaps Porzingis. The world is sleeping on Kristaps because I don't, honestly, I don't get it. He had this, this, this, you know, illness that nobody knew what it was and what was going on. Is he over it?
- [69:37]
Woj (Big Woz)
Is it done? That's the thing we don't even know that he's gotten rid of it.
- [69:41]
Fred Katz
We don't, we don't, we don't. But it's, it's an illness, you know, like it's. I feel like an illness probably goes away, you know, it's an illness.
- [69:50]
Woj (Big Woz)
It would be like, it would be.
- [69:52]
Fred Katz
Like if you got bronchitis and your voice were out and you were like, screw it, I'm gonna, I'm gonna power through some podcasts. And everyone was like, God, really lost it.
- [70:02]
Woj (Big Woz)
You used to be a good podcaster.
- [70:03]
Fred Katz
What happened was used to have this great voice. He had this iconic podcasting voice and he lost it. And it's like, no, he just had bronchitis. Like, he'll wazz. Will be fine in a few weeks.
- [70:15]
Woj (Big Woz)
So I hope you're right.
- [70:17]
Fred Katz
When Chris Stopps play, people talk like he was a less than a zero in the playoffs last year. He was like a negative 3.
- [70:24]
Woj (Big Woz)
He was a horrible player.
- [70:26]
Fred Katz
He was nothing but regular season Christophs Rosingis was Chris Staps. Like he was taking six threes a game. He was shooting over 40%. He. Nobody in the NBA. Yep, nobody in the NBA has that height and that quick of a release from three. He's also able to shoot it from like 32. And he has no conscience whatsoever. Is no conscience at all. He will throw it up anytime from anywhere. He is a special kind of floor spacer. He's a good defender. He's a good rim protector. Like he was having a really good year. If you look at the anal at the second Spectrum analytics during the regular season last year. He was actually the most efficient post up player in the NBA last year.
- [71:09]
Woj (Big Woz)
So now, so now Kristaps is a good post player too, is what you tell him.
- [71:13]
Fred Katz
That's what I'm telling you. He may not even start. Like if they have Okongwu starting at center and Kristaps is coming off the bench and you've got that level of a guy, you're out. Look, he's not going to play a whole year. He never does anymore. Anymore. He's going to get hurt and he's going to have to miss time. But like when he plays other than the playoff run, he's good. And if he never recovers from this illness, then that would be really, really sad and I would, I, that would suck for him and that would be really sad. But I don't know why the default assumption is that like, oh, Kristaps is just going to be sick forever. I don't, I don't know why that's the default.
- [71:50]
Woj (Big Woz)
He's got a new strain of mononucleosis. So, like, that's fine.
- [71:54]
Fred Katz
That's fine. I ate mono, I had mono, I got mono. I was falling asleep everywhere. I got mono, I got mono. When I was 17 years old, I fell asleep everywhere. I. I was. I was going on a trip with my dad. We were going to a bunch of baseball stadiums around the country. It was like the best trip ever. I fell asleep in every car we were in, fell asleep in every airplane. I fell asleep at a game once. I was fall asleep everywhere. I had mono. And you know what?
- [72:17]
Woj (Big Woz)
I'm.
- [72:18]
Fred Katz
I'm here today, and I'm fine.
- [72:20]
Woj (Big Woz)
All right. Chris Daps is back with a vengeance. Fred Katz, man, um, appreciate you coming on. Not gonna lie. I'm not one of these NBA people who, like, during the off season's like, oh, my God, I can't. I'm just itching for games to start back up. I'm really not. Like, we're gonna get 82 from 30 teams. Like, it's fine. However, talking to you today, I'm not gonna lie, got me pumped about the season. So good. Thank you. Thank you for your contribution to the show today.
- [72:50]
Fred Katz
That's what I'm here for.
- [72:50]
Woj (Big Woz)
I'm here for my enthusiastic. Please tell the people where they could find your stuff, man.
- [72:56]
Fred Katz
You can find me on Christoph Sporzingis is going to average20.com can also check out my work at the Athletic. You follow me on Twitter at Fred Cats and yeah, that's. That's it. I'm not really. Oh, you can. And you can subscribe to my podcast, cats and shoot. Patreon.com cats and shoot. Love that, Nick. It's a Knicks podcast, so if you're a Knicks fan, you want to listen, check that out. You can. You can subscribe to it there patreon.com Cats love that you back home with.
- [73:27]
Woj (Big Woz)
The Knicks, man, because you was part of that OKC mafia over there, that, that cult over there that San Presti is cultivating in okc. I'm glad that you back with the home team, man. I'm loving that dude.
- [73:40]
Fred Katz
OKC with so many good beat writers are coming out of OKC 100%.
- [73:45]
Woj (Big Woz)
My man Tony Slater is killing it. Obviously. Royce Young. Just some beasts. Who's the dude that Westbrook was always beefing with?
- [73:56]
Fred Katz
Trammell. Gary Trammell.
- [73:57]
Woj (Big Woz)
Yeah, okay, Gary Trammell.
- [73:59]
Fred Katz
But Brett. Brett Dawson. Eric Horn.
- [74:02]
Woj (Big Woz)
Come on. Eric Horn. Another beast Facts. Anyway, glad to catch up with you, Fred. We'll see you guys next week on the Ringer NBA Podcast feed. I have no idea who's gonna be hosting the show, but I'm sure it's going to be great. Later, y'.
- [74:17]
Fred Katz
All.
- [74:29]
Sponsor Announcer
This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. You know the deal. Summer means grilling. Maybe even impressing your pals with the best cookout of summer. Well, if you want to go big on quality without breaking the bank, say hello to 365 by Whole Foods Market. They've got everything you need for the grill, from antibiotic free chicken thighs to uncured hot dogs, even wild caught salmon burgers. If you're feeling fancy, you can pick up organic condiments, sides, chips, drinks, even dessert from ice cream cake cones. Plus you'll see these yellow low priced signs all over the store. Yeah, they actually mean something here. Same for the yellow sale signs with new deals every Wednesday. And if you want to stay at home, no worries. There's delivery options too. So whether you're a grill master or just there for the snacks, there are so many ways to save on summer grilling favorites at Whole Foods Market.
- [75:21]
Fred Katz
This episode is brought to you by the all new ESPN app. All of ESPN all in one place. Your home for the most live sports and best championship moments. It's the ultimate fan experience. Step up your game and get even more than than before with no annual contract required. Level up. For More on the ESPN app or at stream.espn.com sign up now.