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Lessons From Round 1. Plus, What to Watch For In Round 2 and Masai Lands In Dallas. | Group Chat
01:44:27
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Barrier, and joining me, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Mann. Rob, did you have a nice quiet weekend with the kids? Go to the park or anything?
- [00:29]
B
You know, I did. It was a great time for the whole family. It's just nice to have bits of information dropped on you at work, revelations about your own life, including the fact that I'm a father. And I've been waiting for the two of you to congratulate me. So thank you.
- [00:43]
C
How many texts did you get about that?
- [00:44]
B
It was a lot. Many people we work with. It brought out people from the woodwork of all aspects of my life in ways I never could have anticipated. So thank you to everyone who reached out. Honestly, it's been a very fun couple days.
- [00:58]
A
I was kind of hoping.
- [00:59]
C
Good points you make, either. It's always something like that. That's always when you get a bunch of texts. It's never like, hey, that was good. It's always like, what? Yeah, sorry, Justin.
- [01:07]
A
I was gonna say. It's just. I was hoping that, like, Bill knew something that we didn't. Right. That you actually do have kids that you've been shielding from us specifically, so we won't bring him up on the podcast.
- [01:17]
B
Yeah, I'm actually expecting Junior style. Like, I am planning to give birth myself. I was waiting to tell you guys at the right time, but this is it. You know, I am. I am pregnant with Meaning here in the playoffs. I'm very excited to talk basketball with you both, and I'm excited to be a dad.
- [01:32]
A
Well, Kyle, you are a man of children. Would you do this?
- [01:37]
B
Okay, you can't be calling someone a man of children. That's not what you want.
- [01:41]
A
Children of men.
- [01:44]
C
You know, I just. I watched a lot of basketball. It's balancing. You know, there's a lot of bike riding. I think Sundays are harder work now than ever because you got it. You got to wear people out, which ends up being good for you. But. Yeah, so. But I. It didn't stop me from grinding the tape. We were in there.
- [02:00]
A
Did you get any shots up, like, our guy Bernie Sanders, his mechanics?
- [02:05]
C
I mean, if you put us side by side and voted, like, who has the most, you know, like, prototypical, you know, what you would, you know, aspire to? He had a nice, like, sort of 50s, 60s rec league set shot. I thought Bernie was getting buckets. That was. That was uncut.
- [02:20]
B
Looked good completely. I would. I would love to see some early, like, intramural foot. I guess that's impossible because Cameras literally didn't exist when Bernie Sanders was playing intramural basketball. But if they had, if the technology were available, I would like to see a younger, spry digital out there running digital.
- [02:37]
C
Cameras didn't exist. Let's not date my guy like that.
- [02:40]
B
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. The technology, even like the flashbulb throwaway, immediate celluloid photography was not a thing. If only it were.
- [02:50]
A
I just wanted the sizzle reel. Like I wanted someone to clip it together and do the full mixtape. Like set to mop's Annie up. Something like really aggressive Annie up mid range.
- [03:02]
B
J. I would love to see, especially now like all the. Well they're, they're all like backdoored, right? Like it starts with some other unrelated clip and then there's like a joke non sequitur that flows straight into the Bernie Sanders highlight reel. But I don't even know where we would start. I wouldn't even know where to begin. I hope the Internet can do its thing.
- [03:21]
C
There's footage out there of Bill Clinton shooting. We've seen Obama shooting. Never seen Trump shooting. I'm. I'm sure George Bush has shot a ball here and there. But yeah, man, I think he's somebody. You'd probably have to set him up in a dho. Like you'd have to kind of scream with your butt and then, you know, every once in a while I'll play with like guys who could still shoot it but they can't move. Great. Kind of doing the like, you know, spoon feed them. Here's your open shot. That's probably what you'd have to do with him. But he, he seemed like he had buckets. I don't know about range, but mid range.
- [03:48]
B
I don't know about the D part of the dho. Like I, I think it might just be a purely spot up situation.
- [03:52]
C
No, I'm doing the dribbling and then he just kind of stands still.
- [03:55]
B
That's what that makes more sense.
- [03:57]
A
You could probably set a mighty screen. He seems ferocious, especially on the blocks. I believe it.
- [04:02]
C
This episode is brought to you by McDonald's. Fill up like every day is game day with the under $3 menu at McDonald's. The a sausage McMuffin for just a dollar fifty and when it's time for lunch, grab a McDouble for only 250. McValue gives players, fans and everyone in
- [04:17]
A
between more action for less.
- [04:18]
C
A sauce McMuffin is basically official breakfast of tip off day in my opinion. Get even more value with MC value only at McDonald's, limited time only. Prices of participation may vary. Prices may be higher for delivery. Like Kobe style. Running through a Bernie screen. You'd kill him. He'd be dead.
- [04:36]
A
Yeah, just put that elbow out. Got got the knees just jutting out when he's trying to set a screen. He knows how to get it done. All right, today's episode doing lessons from round one. We're doing a look ahead to round two, what we're looking for. And we're going to talk a little Messiah to Dallas, which we just got that news right before this pod. We'll talk about that right after this. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. It's been a wild playoff run, but it's not over yet. And FanDuel wants to bring you closer to the court to make more of all the action to come. FanDuel is the best place to bet teams, players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 plus select states 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler, call 1-888-78-9777 or visit ccpg.org ChatInElectric all right, round one is in the books. Had the nice little symmetry moment where the Cavs started the playoffs and then the Cavs finish off round one. Rob, how are you feeling about round one in general? I feel like we got a little bit more spice than we were expecting.
- [05:52]
B
Yeah. I mean, now that we have a chance to kind of like sit back and catch our breath. Just an insane first round and one that I thought at various points was going to get toppled by injuries. Right. Certain guys who just weren't going to be available. Ant ducks out. Luka's not going to play. What are we even going to get from this round? I thought it delivered on, like all of the intrigue and drama we could reasonably expect, including all of these game sevens, some of which were good games, some of which were like, as typical, like kind of like game seven lopsided blowouts. But I'll take that kind of first round any day of the week. I thought it was pretty sensational basketball theater, if nothing else.
- [06:26]
C
Yeah, very, very entertaining. I don't know if it was always, like, expertly played, but there's also this thing where you're like, you. You judge if something is expertly Played by how. How it looks offensively when really there were some good defensive performances. You know, the Pistons good on that front in the second half of that game. But yeah, we had some, like, how hard can you hang on to the rope situations with the. With the magic and. And so on. But yeah, man, I mean, the. The east, we. We talked a lot about, you know, going into the playoffs, about how clogged it was, how it was like one game, two games, how, you know, the seating could completely tectonically shift. I thought that the first round really was indicative of that. You know, we got three game sevens and we got one game six. The west, it was a little clearer with the two routes with Oklahoma City and San Antonio, but we got good series from Minnesota and the Lakers. So, yeah, all in all, I had that written down word for word. You know, that was an insanely good round one.
- [07:21]
A
So I have down here five lessons that we learned from the first round that could perhaps take away into the second round or just forget entirely. We'll find out. But we didn't need to start with those game sevens over the weekend. We had three of them. We had one on Saturday, Sixers in Celtics, and then the two on Sunday. What I took away from all three of those lumped together was the process wasn't wrong. It was just early because I was trying to rack my brain in, like, what the biggest playoff moments were for the process era Sixers. And I don't think they topped what we got this weekend with Embiid coming back to life and stealing the game seven, ultimately winning that first round series, probably the biggest series win of Embiid's life. Because when you go through, like, the tape, it's just a lot of first round wins, and then they get to the second round, it's like, oh, something happens, you know, the. The bouncer with Kawhi, injuries to everyone on the team, practically.
- [08:16]
B
I think those would be it, right? It's like the bounce. The bounces with Kawhi and Ben Simmons completely disappearing against the Hawks were probably the two biggest process playoff moments before this.
- [08:26]
A
I think so. And then you. Can you marry it with what Tobias Harris did in the game seven for the Pistons? 39 and two. I think he had 17. What, in the second quarter? Like, so Tobias and be together. This is the biggest moment for the process. And if anything, Sam Hinkey gets on Twitter, comes back from the dead. He sending out memes just to punctuate it.
- [08:48]
C
The process, the Rudy Gif. I had to look up what movie that was from. That's sad on my part in terms of like movies, sports, history. I'm not very well versed in the Rudy Gifs, but Rudy in general. But yeah, he. He. He jumps out and pops off at that one. They. They had their ahead of schedule series though. Wasn't that an 18 against like the. Was it the. The Heat, I think when they had the Villanelle.
- [09:13]
A
Yes, yes.
- [09:15]
C
That was a very fun series. I remember.
- [09:17]
A
Yeah, but it was like fun where this one, it felt like the emotional stakes were just baked. Especially considering indeed vanquishing Boston when he just like comes back in the middle of the series. As sad it is is to say that like this is probably in big be where like we're recording this Monday morning. I don't know if he's even going to have a second leg to get through the second round of the playoffs because it seemed like he got hurt toward the end there. Again, this. This is his moment. This is like. This is Embiid's crowning achievement as of right now, unfortunately.
- [09:46]
B
It was fucking awesome. Like watching him come back into this series and just completely reshape it and like shake the Celtics off their axis. I mean, he played Keda out of the starting lineup and then back into it because he was torching everybody else. I think he may have ended Vuch's career as like a relevant NBA player. Like that just may be completely done by this point. And he forced the Celtics to play so far outside themselves in reacting to him that it then made everything that much easier for Tyrese Maxey. So it was like it was the comprehensive impede game where he's not even moving all that well yet. But he was so individually dominant that it started bleeding out into everything else that the Sixers were doing. And it's such an impressive way in like a real superstar way.
- [10:26]
C
Yeah, I counted. This was the most post up heavy game, if I'm not mistaken, in the entire playoffs they had 22 total. Four of those were Paul George and then 18 of them were in beat. And it's what was interesting was watching Embiid, he wasn't really. It was very stagnant. But it's amazing like how much he can get done. Barely moving. He wasn't like pounding it and moving. It was a lot of like survey wait for the double team. But the big thing was that the guys that the Celtics had out there were just not big enough to hurry him. A there's the he's massive part of it. Like you can't move him. Jaylen Brown is a solid, strong dude and he couldn't move him. Blocked him a couple times, but the help would come and Pritchard would just have his arms up and it looked like me out there, like with my like. And B was just like, okay, all right. Like it just threw over the top of it. He was. It wasn't anything flashy. He had a couple low angle, nice passes to Vijay. Vijay could have shot the ball a little bit better. That would have helped. But they won. Doesn't matter. But he was just moving the ball in a simple way that I think that it just broke the Celtics. They didn't have an answer for it even when he wasn't scoring.
- [11:29]
B
I think in particular for a game like this where he was seeing a lot of non traditional coverage with those smalls with doubles. Like the Celtics just throwing a lot at it at him. One turnover in a game like this in which he is just a scoring machine, which he's drawing so many fouls. And like the worst versions of a bead that we've seen when he's been healthy enough to play have been him trying to force things or not reading through doubles correctly or trying to draw the foul and falling over but not getting the whistle and turning it. He just wasn't doing any of that stuff. It was like all of the best parts of Embiid with almost none of the worst parts.
- [12:00]
C
Well, that's the key is that you're talking.
- [12:02]
A
He's.
- [12:02]
C
That when they. With the smalls on him, it played into this do or die situation where the Celtics had to fight him on the catch, which played into those fights on the catch where like he's kind of mastered the dark arts of like, I'm going to sell the contact. And that ended up being a big storyline in this game was he drew a lot of fouls.
- [12:21]
A
Yeah, right. Yeah. He's kind of the one guy the Celtics didn't want to see, if only because of the lack of size that they had. And I. And we'll talk about the Celtics a little bit later here, but just felt like he was the antidote there. It did. See like when he was churning on any catch, like he had the, like the slow, rusty crank going and anytime he fell on the floor. He doesn't like fall naturally.
- [12:39]
B
No.
- [12:39]
A
As a human, it's like. It's almost like a, like a bowl, like it teeters and it totters.
- [12:43]
C
He does it on purpose though. Right. It's the like John Woo combat role thing. Right. He's like trying to like Is that what it is? He a stuntman now? No, I think he practiced falling. That's a thing? Yeah.
- [12:54]
A
I mean, I didn't know this.
- [12:55]
B
It looks a little more like a very tall person whose feet have gotten tangled in their dog's leash and are, like, slowly sort of teetering like a bowling pin to me. But maybe it is calculated.
- [13:06]
A
I mean, he's on the ground, like, getting stretched as if he's like Laffy Taffy. And so anything is possible at this point.
- [13:13]
B
Yeah.
- [13:14]
A
But to go on. We'll talk about the Celtics later. I do think, like, should talk about the Pistons in the Magic series, because it's funny, because as I was going through and preparing for this, like, you forget what happened in Game 6 to the Magic, but I almost felt like the horrors carried on into that next game where you don't just, like, move past missing 23 shots in a row. And it just felt like after that happened, there really wasn't any comeback. You can't come back from leave. You can't come back from 23 misses.
- [13:43]
B
No. I mean, just ask, like, the Houston Rockets. As far as, like, what it does to you psychologically to have your team miss a bunch of shots. It, like, hangs with you historically, probably for the rest of your playing career or general managing career, coaching career. And certainly, I think, as much as anything, that Game six is what we learned this morning cost Jamal Mosley his job as the coach of the Orlando Magic. Like, the inability to find stable, cogent offense has followed this team for so long. And they were able to have enough smoke and mirrors and good defense and good size and transition play earlier in the series to kind of, like, disguise that fact. But they never grew out of the fact that they were the Magic. And the same Magic team that we've seen struggle with this time and time and time and year over year again. And a lot has to change for them to break through to the second round because they. It seemed like they were there. And yet over the course of these last two games, I think the Pistons made it abundantly clear how far the Magic still have to go.
- [14:38]
C
Yeah, I mean, the Magic are a classic example of, like, what demons do you court by trying to chase certain superlatives, which are they want to be nasty and big and muck it up. And they did that by drafting guards that could do that with Suggs and with Anthony Black. And it's just like Cade was just flat out ignoring Suggs at different points. There was a crazy stat in this game. Let me pull this up. Yeah, the Magic, they took away their rim production completely. I mean the Magic in This game shot 37.5% at the rim. And if you hold a non shooting team to that number in a, in a playoff game, you're not gonna, your odds of winning are good. And, and that's. So that was really, really tough and a lot of that was Duran's rim protection. But you know, Asar Thompson was unbelievable defensively in this game. They just, they really clogged it up for a team that struggles to create.
- [15:30]
A
Yeah, I know that Franz was out and that was a big deal in Garden Cade and huge past that. Like if he was there, maybe this would have been a little bit tighter. I think the, the thing that's really disappointing here is like beyond Franz. Like this is kind of the team. And it felt like even at full strength it still wasn't enough. I mean we saw that throughout the regular season. I kept thinking to myself like, Bane has been a pretty big asset for this team. I don't think Bane is the problem. Didn't really show up in game seven. But like this is kind of just what you expect for him to be like the in between guy. Shoot some threes, run some offense, yada yada. I just like think looking back on that move, it's not that they don't need Bane. If anything, they just need more shooters in order to round this team out where it's just like, and you can't sacrifice a game like they had from Suggs for instance. Wendell Carter kind of reverts back, isn't a factor offensively and you're just like wondering. Paulo was pretty good and I think they could walk away from this series feeling pretty good about him being like a go to guy in the playoffs yet again despite all the messiness, despite the fact that he seems pretty unhappy based on recent reports. But it's just like if you don't have that element but your team is so top heavy, you can't really fit any other stars there. Like I don't know if they needed like another supplementary start. I think they just needed like shooting on this team. Almost like the simple answer is better than the more common.
- [16:45]
B
This episode is brought to you by Ferrero. Soccer's international tournament is here and Ferrero is going all in. Enter for your shot at a range of prizes just by buying your favorites like Tic Tac Fresh Mints, Cool, minty and simple. Or Halo Top ice cream loaded with crave worthy mix ins in every bite and half the calories of leading Competitors go all in. Buy any two Ferrero brands and you could win $1 million. Official rules apply. Learn more at goallinandwin.com complicated one? Yeah, I mean, I think they in a lot of ways need kind of a more pistonsy construction. Right? Like, the Pistons are not an ideal offense, but it's very clear how their offense is going to flow and function, and it's through Cade. And if you trust Paolo to be that guy, and I think there's reasonable disagreement on that particular point, but you want an offense that funnels through good creators with spacing, with enough flow, and they just really don't have that. I thought I was kind of most alarmed in this game for the Magic by how similar it felt to their Game seven two years ago against the Cavs, in which it was also Paolo and really no one else scoring with him. I think his highest scoring team in that game had 13 points from Franz, 16 points from Bane in this game. And it just felt like if it wasn't Paulo going one on one, beasting through people or hitting threes, then nothing was really getting done. To go two years and feel like the team really hasn't grown much at all, even while acquiring Desmond Bain, like, that's. That's a punch in the gut for sure.
- [18:14]
C
So do you go just try to find the toughest designated shooter that you can? Like, are you trying to. Well, I mean, he. But he's small. I mean, that's another thing, too. I mean, do you try to go find somebody that's like six, seven, who can really movement shoot that? Just the somebody who, I mean, you think of like a Sam Houser, but it's like Sam Houser had his problems in the. In the Sixers series. I don't know. And then there's also the element of, you know, you got to ask yourself the question is. Is like a philosophical shift in terms of the schematic approach, the way this team plays? I don't really know that there's a coach out there that's going to be able to like, mix things up, like a Billy Donovan or I don't know, name, you know, insert whatever coach it is. It seems more structural. Like, are they going to have to, like, take a big bite out of the way this team is constructed? Maybe something that stings a little bit. Like, maybe consider Franz's value is still pretty good. Like, are you. Is this a point where you start to weigh maybe do we pick one of these guys, like, to me, to structurally fix this? It makes me wonder if they need to have that kind of a discussion.
- [19:15]
B
I do think the coaching change alone can go at least part of the way and I think Billy Donovan, whose name is linked to the Magic for very obvious Florida related reasons is would be a decent fit. I just think his teams do better about getting into early offense and getting into actual options than the Magic do. Like the Magic, one of their greatest flaws in addition to just not running much set offense really at all, it was all read and react. It was meant to be, you know, kind of democratic in the way that some of these other successful offenses were. But they never had the spacing for it. But they would just kind of dawdle getting the ball at the floor. And so then when they do get into that, okay, we have to wade through three and four actions. The shot clock is always on their back every single time. So like getting a coach who inspires a little more pace of play, a little more tempo, a little more just like if, if this is what we're going to be, let's at least give our ch ourselves the full 24 seconds to try to be it. I think that would help as much as anything.
- [20:10]
A
It wasn't surprising for me to see Tibbs, his name being kicked around here because he's the classic example of can we wring more out of this current construction and not really break anything off just by being really detail oriented and execute to the finest degree. Obviously he's had a lot of success with big mauling teams and I wonder if like that is a fit if you don't want to be more creative with how you're problem solving this. Ultimately I think they need to problem solve a little bit more creatively because if anything they're just going to get more expensive with Anthony Black do extension and everything. And so like I'm wondering like where are the solves here and at a certain point if your top heavy team can't get out of the first round or is struggling to get through the regular season, I do think you need to like reconsider things. I think a lot about Clippers era Eric Bledsoe. So before he went on to be a detriment to his own team, like there was a moment, rookie year and beyond where he would just come in and absolutely wreck shit defensively, right? He was just like kind of this like cult hero because he would just come out of nowhere. Didn't really like fit what was going on, but he just did one thing so well it was hard to keep him off the floor. But as things went on like the. Trying to fit him into certain lineups became more and more difficult. I look around with the Magic, they have all these sorts of guys where it's like they do something so great, but it's like, oh, it takes so much, but they're trying to do all of those things simultaneously. I look at the roster, I'm like, where is the ease of fit? Like, who are the guys just like greasing the wheels and who are there purposefully in order to make this easy? Like, you need Paulo to play with certain players, you need Franz to play with certain players. And then you have Suggs who's like the, like the most awesome player on the team. Like probably the emotional ballast of the team. But then he'll have offensive games like this where it just, it doesn't all fit. And so like you need something a little easier, I guess, is my takeaway from this series.
- [22:01]
B
I think that's a great way to put it. Yeah. Like the limitations of their overlapping skill sets. I think Bane is maybe like the one guy on the team who you could say you just kind of plug him in and he creates space and a lot of opportunity for other people without demanding a lot of oxygen. The demands of all those other core guys bump into each other, force. Force players into uncomfortable roles. Like force Franz Vagner to be like a little too much of a spot up shooter. Force Paula Banero to have to go against like set defenses that have walled up against him a little too often. There are ways around it. You just have to be like very careful and very deliberate if that's what the construction of your team is going to be. And frankly, that's going to require like a very different style of coaching than the Magic have had.
- [22:40]
A
On the flip side, are you still feeling good about your Pistons finals pick, Rob?
- [22:45]
B
You know, I'm actually feeling pretty good about it.
- [22:47]
A
Than we are about the Celtics.
- [22:49]
B
Now that they've survived this series. I am feeling good about it. I kind of want to save that because I want to talk about it in some of our kind of round two preview stuff. But before we even do that, Justin, I do have to acknowledge, while I salute your framing here, process related into Tobias Harris into the Pistons Magic, I think there is a significant portion of Sixers fans who will resent the. Even the implication that Tobias Harris is related to the process at all. Cause that was, it was such a Colangelo move.
- [23:16]
A
I thought about this though, because Tobias was though like kind of the hinge point, like one of the biggest decisions they Made leveling up from the process.
- [23:25]
B
True.
- [23:26]
A
Really became him or Jimmy. They ultimately chose him and here we are. And if anything, like, he stuck around longer than so many of these other guys. Like, Robert Covington probably represents the process, like the very, like, early days of the process in a certain way.
- [23:40]
B
Him or Toby Roden, I would say, are really the patron saints.
- [23:43]
A
I did go deep in the. In the weeds and look up some process guy, Hollis Thompson, like. But Tobias was like, he was there for all of the emotional trauma. And so, like, he deserves, like, some badge of honor.
- [23:56]
B
He does deserve a badge of honor. He's certainly affiliated, but yeah. Is he. Is he hinky related? If they traded for him three years after Hanky resigned, who's to say?
- [24:06]
C
Who is that ultra athletic, like, wing that they had that was kicking ass early in the season? It was. It was a Kenya. Was it KJ Martin? No, there's another one. I'm blanking on it. But yeah, they had a lot of just random, like, folk heroes during that time. It was like, is this something? And then it was like, no, it's not. Yeah, yeah.
- [24:24]
A
Anyway, Ishmith. Yeah, we could just do this all day.
- [24:27]
B
Of course. I mean, I mean, Nerlands, Noel, obviously. This. This is really prime naming some guys.
- [24:33]
A
Yeah. All right, next lesson here. Number two, never tweet or livestream.
- [24:41]
B
So is this advice for you or for whom?
- [24:44]
A
I think it's for everybody.
- [24:45]
B
Okay.
- [24:46]
A
This is the lesson for all of us, is just to don't tweet as Kevin Durant. Well, he didn't really tweet, but he does tweet a lot. We got the story after the Rockets, unfortunately weren't able to even pull off game six, let alone the full blown comeback. Got a little over our skis there. And by us, I mean me. Just got the thing where it's like, oh, this is actually a pretty big problem the entire season. Which, like, yeah, no shit. You don't really walk away from that. Even if it wasn't him, just the fact that it could be him, I think is just too much to come back from. Like, the perception matters more than what's actually true at that point. So we have that happening. We can talk about the Rockets if you want. But then Jalen Brown gets on the live stream like, a couple hours after losing game seven, and he's talking about flopping with Embiid. He's talking about this being his best game of or the best season of his career.
- [25:36]
B
Like his favorite season. Yeah, that's a. For a guy who won a championship. I was trying something to say.
- [25:42]
C
No, there's something implied in that. That's what I'm saying.
- [25:46]
A
Yes. I was just trying to think of, like, what would be a worse timing in order to do this specific live stream. Like, Brett, I was just thinking, like, if. If someone in the Celtics had, like, had an untimely death and all of a sudden he just jumps on the live streams. Like, man, the beat's flopping. That really sucks. But, like, just time and place. I. I actually agree with him on the. Like, he has a point about flopping. Yes, there's flopping is rampant and his scorching the leap. But like, dude, you're flopping all over the place.
- [26:17]
C
And also, that wasn't why you phone for a minute. Every star, I mean, Jalen has a signature flopping move where he goes to the middle of the floor and rakes up with his shot motion to get people to foul him. And he does. Every star does it. Let's. Let's just start from the premise of everyone's guilty. This is not a guilty innocent. It has to be maddening to deal with Embiid on that stuff, though. Like, he had that one point where he just kind of locked fingertips with Kada and got like his fourth foul. And you rewatch it and you're like, optically, I can't argue that that Kaden foul in there, like, Embiid just really, really schooled K on some of the. On some of the little tedious, you know, foul drawing kind of games there. It was. It was. But everybody's guilty.
- [27:00]
B
Everybody is guilty. And this is what's frustrating about this particular thing is, like, if he had just made it, a we problem of, like, flopping has ruined the game. And I am a part of it as much as anyone, I think this would have been received quite well. But as it stands, it just seems like sour grapes from a guy who just lost in a game where we should also note, if you take all of the free throws out of six or Celtics game seven, the Sixers still win. So I don't. I don't really know what there is to complain about.
- [27:23]
A
Yeah, it definitely wasn't the size disadvantage of the front core. It definitely wasn't the fact that the they couldn't hit a goddamn shot. It wasn't the fact that, like, Derek White just forgot how to shoot this entire season and was, like, at the point where he was, like, passing out of open shots because I think he was just afraid to put it up. And the ones that he did go in. Were like toilet bowling in. In big moments. I just. The Celtics are in a weird spot, though, where it's like, I think the pitchforks are out. Especially when Jalen does stuff like this. It dredges up old feelings about, like, oh, do we need to break up to hit him and Brown and all this stuff. I don't know. Like, maybe I'm just not in the thick of it as much as some other people, Kyle, But I look far. I'm like, they're actually in a pretty good spot for the most part. Tatum just got hurt, and then you can kind of like, build on top of that. I don't know. Are you, like, where are you on the extremes at this point?
- [28:10]
C
Well, I was. I was teasing Isaiah before we got on here, because he looks so despondent, and just like, he looked like he was, you know, gonna go find a bridge to jump off of. And I was just laughing because we went into the season thinking that this. It's funny how things flip and you can't sort of, you know, get away from the. The expectations that are inherent to being the Celtics. And they do have some star players on the team. And, you know, over the course of the season, we. We. We. We went on this journey from, you know, this is a house money year. You know, they got under the tax, they'll pivot. This is going to be. We'll figure out where we go from here. And then, little by little, they did this. You know, brought it up on the show earlier in the year, they did this Spursian thing where they were just like, why is this still the. The integrity of this thing that they have as an advantage over a lot of franchises, and the accountability was elevating all of these players and their player development. Obviously, we gave a lot of credit, but I think that there. It's a. It's a different sport. As we've said, we get into the playoffs, and these guys who were more ready than we thought were not quite ready to be, you know, in the. In the headlights on the stage at primetime. You know, like, the. The thing that is funny to me is we're forgetting now, I think that Tatum. Tatum, you know, coming back and. And everything like, he. This. This team was like, this was a pivot year. And I think at some point, we kind of got disabused of our. Of our skepticism and converted into believers that the Celtics could do this. And I think we just maybe gave them a little bit too much credit, because if you looked out there on the floor it's just like Philly had more top end talent than the Celtics did. I think at the end of the day, is that. Is that a controversial thing to say?
- [29:47]
B
I think it's totally fair to say that the Celtics overachieved in the regular season. And I think it's totally fair to say that the Sixers had a disproportionately weird season given the injuries and the suspensions and everything involved. And it led to a matchup that is not a normal 27 matchup. All of that being said, they were up 31 in this series. Like they had every opportunity to win it. And I think it's fine. Like the Celtics have such a weird year because of that recalibration you're talking about, Kyle, where. Yeah, if you told us at the very beginning of the regular season, you know the Celtics are going to go, they're going to have a really good seed in the playoffs and go toe to toe with a really tough team and lose in a game seven in the first round, that probably would have felt like a good outcome. But seeing Jaylen Brown's growth, seeing the development of those role players even as it came back down to earth in the postseason, seeing what this team could kind of collectively be, I think it's fair to hold them to some kind of high water mark. Even if that high water mark is just can you finish off a series in which you're up 3:1.
- [30:43]
C
Yeah, but how often do you go into a series where that you have the two sort of going racing opposite directions variables of you lose Jason Tatum, who's an all NBA level talent, and you have a Joel Embiid who's an MVP level talent come in and look normal. Those. That's not a normal thing to happen mid series.
- [31:01]
B
No.
- [31:02]
A
Yeah. And if anything, I thought the Sixers all of a sudden clicked into place in a way that like you wouldn't have expected. Even in like in the heady times of earlier this season when things are going well, it's just Embiid soaks up so much attention. You can see how it trickles down to all of their guards and all of a sudden you're just like, whoa, they have a lot of scoring guards and like just perimeter threats that they could just throw out there at once. Like the depth is fairly shaky. I'm worried about that going into round two where it's practically like everyone who wasn't Grimes was, I think got 12 minutes off the bench. But you throw out Grimes and Maxi and Edgecom and. And Paul George, there's a little bit kind of like the effect Wemby has for some of the other guards that he has in, in San Antonio where it's like if everybody is occupied with Embiid, all of a sudden the guard dynamic on ball stuff starts to pop in ways that really makes like clarifies the vision for that team. And so I don't think there'll be like a major threat in the second round, if only because I don't know if Joel's going to show up on a game to game basis. But the team looked like it made sense. And I wonder if their record, if they played 82 games with Embiid all of a sudden would be more like a 3, 4 seed than a 7.
- [32:12]
B
Oh, I think that's totally fair to say. They looked awesome. Like, I don't want to take anything away from the Sixers only to point out that when one team in the playoffs does finally click into place, it's as much about them doing it as the other team allowing it. And if the Celtics were the kind of disruptive team that could actually get under the Sixers skin in this series, that could actually challenge them on the merits of those rotations. Challenge them not just in terms of Embiid, but take away Paul George, take away Kelly Uber, take away. Maybe you don't deny Tyrese Maxey, but some of that supplementary scoring or on the other side of things, if they played like one of the best offenses in the league, which they were in the regular season, maybe they make Embiid's defense more of a problem. Maybe they put him in the blender in a way that's genuinely uncomfortable. I don't know that they ever quite did that. And so I'm not like saying we should tear the Celtics down. I, I too think, like, you should preach a lot of patience with this group and they're going to be better. And once you get Jason Tatum back full time, a lot of this stuff is going to resolve itself. But as it stands like they did blow it as much as the Sixers went out and won it.
- [33:10]
C
Man, it is so crazy to have. I've just kind of had a reminder of my appreciation for Paul George. Like, it's just crazy to have him sitting there. Granted, it's funny in it and I do think it's, it's valid to think about, like, is it worth just taking the penalty? Like take the drugs and get right and just take the penalty.
- [33:29]
B
That's the market inefficiency.
- [33:30]
C
Like me personally, I'm Starting to wonder that about my own playing career. It's like, just take the drugs, Kyle. Who's looking? What's it matter? No, I mean, Paul George in his prime. I think I'll throw this out to the. To you all. I mean, if he's right, I mean, I think he's a better player even than, like, prime. Paul George is probably just behind Embiid. If you ran. If you stacked up like Jalen Tatum, Embiid. Paul George, like, he's probably. He's right there. I mean, the. The apex version of him. And, you know, I know he was sick in Game 7, but there were just times where he was abusing. He had that one ISO on the right wing where he stepped back and hit a three, and I was like, jesus Christ. And granted, the Knicks are going to have more to throw at them in that sense, but do the Knicks have somebody to slow down Tyrese Maxey? That's going to be a problem for them. So there's a lot of different things to unpack, and these two teams looked very different the last time that they played in that Great Series in 24.
- [34:22]
A
I want to save this series. Look ahead, because it's something I want to talk about in our. In our. What to watch for, because I think that's going to be one of the more fascinating on the board here. But as we're talking about, I just. I look at the. Like, the promo that Jaylen Brown put up, first of all, had time to come up with, like, a graphic or have someone make a graphic where in which he's wearing the glasses, like, the sunglasses that go be in the back of the head. Like, when did he just decide that Neo was his style inspiration?
- [34:50]
B
Wasn't Neo.
- [34:50]
C
I don't think Neo wore that.
- [34:52]
B
Neo was more the sunglasses without the. You're thinking more going over the ear at all. Right?
- [34:57]
C
Maybe.
- [34:59]
A
Excuse me, Sorry. I meant Morpheus. Maybe like, maybe the bass player for. For the band Prodigy or something.
- [35:07]
B
No, I think it was one of the crew members of the Nebuchadnezzar, but you're just naming the wrong one.
- [35:12]
A
What the fuck is it? Is that the ship?
- [35:13]
B
That's the ship.
- [35:14]
A
Okay.
- [35:14]
C
Yeah.
- [35:16]
A
Do you talk about the Rockets?
- [35:17]
C
Did he do a promo for his Embiid Flops video? Is that what you're saying?
- [35:22]
A
For his live stream? Yeah, there's like, a whole thumbnail. I just sent it. No, it's like a full, like, flyer that he put together, like, promoting that he was going to do this, and it has the. Has the Cool glasses. I just want to.
- [35:37]
C
Nebuchadnezzar. I just want to say that the. All kinds of biblical imagery in the Matrix, just, of course, Zion.
- [35:43]
B
Are you kidding me?
- [35:44]
A
Yeah.
- [35:44]
C
I just want to say that the never tweet thing kind of goes both ways. I've had this. I've had this happen where I just, like, got caught in a feisty mood and just kind of clapped at somebody who made a comment about a video of people who follow me on Twitter probably saw this. And then what's funny about Twitter is, like, you. You could make, like, a little. You could make something like that, and you want it to stop there. And what happens is, even if you do have a successful clapback, there's this. And. And it was kind of reserved. I didn't say anything mean. There's this parade of people who follow you that kind of just come back behind you and they just kick the person. Like, just say the meanest shit. Like, I just, like, said something about the thing we were talking about. And then there's always a parade of people who come through and are just like, kill yourself, you know? You ugly son of a. Like, it's just like, whoa. We're just arguing about. We're talking about a video here, guys. Chill out. Anyway, you got goons support you. It's good to have people that team up with you. But let's just simmer, everybody. We don't got to be so mean. Can everybody just take a chill pill? That's all I'm saying.
- [36:41]
B
Justin, do you have any thought about clapbacks?
- [36:44]
A
I think they're warranted in most situations.
- [36:47]
B
I can imagine that.
- [36:50]
C
Just like screenshotting somebody's face and saying they're ugly. I'm like, we're just. This is an argument about basketball.
- [36:55]
A
Well, I would do that.
- [36:57]
B
No, Justin. Barrier. Of course not.
- [37:01]
A
I'm much more. I'm a much more distinguished gentleman now. I would never do that, now would I?
- [37:07]
B
Before, possibly.
- [37:08]
C
Maybe I've gotten soft. I don't know.
- [37:10]
B
No, I don't. I don't think you've gotten soft. I think you're trying to be a normal person on the Internet, which might be a fool's errand, but we support you, Kyle.
- [37:16]
A
The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. FanDuel is giving you better payouts on same game parlays all NBA playoffs long with more ways to build and more value every time you play. You can stack your picks your way for every game, every matchup, and every moment, from spreads to player points to threes and more. Build it all into one same game parlay and go for bigger payouts. So if you're betting same game parlays this NBA postseason, bet them on FanDuel. More options, better payouts all NBA playoffs long. So looking at bets coming up here, I like the Pistons coming back from what was a pretty tumultuous first round series. I like them against the Cavs cause I don't really trust the Cavs. Do you trust the Cavs? I don't trust the Cavs. So give me the Pistons in game one minus three and a half. They're at home. They didn't have to travel after the game seven. Cavs also had to deal with the game seven. So I don't know, I just like the Pistons in the series. Don't love the points that they're giving. But three and a half? Not that bad. So Pistons minus three and a half. Lock it in. Head to FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to get started. FanDuel official betting partner of the NBA play your game 21 plus select states 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut along these lines
- [38:39]
B
with the Jalen Brown stuff. I'm wondering on the flip side of it, as we talk about historical comps for players present in the past, as we try to understand what it means to be like a superstar in 2026, do we give appropriate credit for the teams and the players who do not fall into this shit of like going on a live stream and stirring up a bunch of random noise about like this is my favorite season because I was the number one option on this team even though we weren't that successful in the playoffs. Like it was so easy to be a superstar in basically any other era before this one where all you had to do was like, please God, keep your vices in check and do not vent to the columnist at the local paper when he shows up in the locker room. And if you can do that successfully, you can have your air of mystique. Stuff will generally not get out of the locker room as far as like the fight that happened at practice or whatever.
- [39:29]
A
Well, just as a caveat, all of those guys were talking to the local columnists. They were planting stories like talk about mystique. Like Kobe is probably the prime example of that. He fudgeing, talked to everybody and made sure that he was getting his angle in every fucking story.
- [39:43]
B
Well that's what it is, right? It's like how you control the storytelling. Absolutely. The narrative izing has been happening for a long time, but it's like there's just so much potential and temptation now with like, you can press a button on the phone in your pocket and everything can sort of blow up. And I wonder, like, historically, should that matter? Like, should that be something we think about when we're weighing like LeBron versus Michael Jordan? The fact that LeBron has had to navigate a weird social media environment that he's had to navigate, like the realities of how self destructive it feels, feels to just like exist in the world with social media now.
- [40:21]
A
Yeah, I think, I think that Jaylen is a prime example of when people say that they want full transparency from your superstars. When they get it, all they want to do is pile on top of that. Like, we want to fit people into boxes. And when they don't say anything, you're like, oh, I don't. I don't know anything about this guy. Like, you won't say anything. And then Jaylen says everything on the top of his mind. You're like, why is he saying all of these things? It's that push and pull of like, what you want versus, like the almost GM brain that's infected a lot of like, the policing of sports these days, where it's like, you almost have people being like, he shouldn't say that for the good of the team, but I want to know what he's thinking. And so to be honest with you, I don't blame him for saying outright, like, this was my favorite. Like, these guys are just like nuts competitors who just want to be like the best of the their sport. And Jalen has been so honest about that from the jump. It's like, I don't know what else you wanted for him because this has always been him. Can you like, work around it in ways in order to like, fit him around Tatum? Yes, but it's also always going to be like, difficult for those reasons. And so I just kind of take it as it is. I don't know, Kyle, how you feel, but like, to me, this is just always the Jalen experience and like, he's been able to work alongside Tatum, so we shouldn't think too much of it. It.
- [41:36]
C
I'm not locked in on the Jalen Brown post game, you know, broadcast, but if you talk to people, I saw several people say that, like, if this, this is getting clipped out, obviously and getting a lot of attention. But people who do follow his Broadcast after every game, which he's done a ton of them apparently. I don't know if it's every single game, but apparently he's been pretty self critical a lot on that broadcast. And I, I heard that said many, many times. And I was just thinking of the, of the guys that, of the guys that are super transparent, like you're talking about, like Shay, I guess is one of the ultimate. Like you're on this end of the spectrum, don't say anything, don't interview, never. We don't know, we know hardly anything about Shay, that he likes clothes, you know. Right. And then on the other end of it, it's like, is there a version of the super transparent superstar that we like? Even Jared McCain who was doing tick tock dances, there's a bunch of people who are just like rolling their eyes at that now. And initially we love that it was like, oh, so wholesome. I don't, it's, I don't know, it almost feels like it's somewhere in the middle. Like just say, say a little bit, but not a ton because it, it does seem like people get worn out with you. Like people laugh about kd, but it's, it's definitely gone the other way. He's, he's probably another extreme example, but I don't really know that there's an example of a transparent superstar that we really unconditionally love. It's always going to be a mix.
- [42:48]
B
Yeah, I think the KD part and like the whole Burner situation with the Rockets is very much part of this conversation too, where it's like all team sports are predicated on this very delicate balance of like, yes, we are all in it for ourselves. Like, we're all trying to make a living out here. We're all trying to have a career. We're all trying to be individually successful in whatever terms we dictate for our own lives. But within that can we find like a steady ground to kind of do it together and generally push in the same direction? And like being on a team, like, maybe that's, you know, just a straight up illusion that people convince themselves is actually happening. But you do have to convince yourself of something in order to be a part of this kind of collaborative environment. And the burner story, true or not, as you alluded to, Justin, like really punctured that illusion. Right. Really, really challenged the idea of like, what are we doing here if my teammate is potentially just like talking copious amounts of behind my back to random strangers on the Internet calling me all These ridiculous and kind of hilarious things like, it is. It is a very particular kind of modern challenge to what it means to be an NBA player today. And clearly it did have an effect on the Rockets, regardless of who believed what and when. And I, like, I don't know how to sort that out as far as what it means for the team and the shape of it going forward or what we're even supposed to make of it right now.
- [44:08]
A
People don't want actual honesty. Like, in no walks of life do you want a hundred percent honesty. Like, you want a version of it in order to seem like it's honest. And so I think a lot about the John Mulaney likability is a jail
- [44:25]
B
where it's just like, well, first of all, you would.
- [44:27]
A
Yeah, but it's just like, it's the type of thing. It reminds me of someone who.
- [44:32]
C
No prison can hold you. Right?
- [44:35]
B
That's right.
- [44:36]
A
That's just like the type of thing where it's like someone rationalizing, being too terse about what they're saying. It's like, well, I'm just honest. Right. It kind of has that sort of effect with Jalen and, like, in terms of just, like, celebrity and whatnot. Like, people don't want the unfettered version of someone. They want the polished version that, like, seems like you know them, but you don't actually, like. The more things have gone on, the more I've noticed that, like, celebrity, like, personality managing has filtered into everything that we do, including, one might say, podcasting. But it just, like, it's never been the case. And I do think it's trickling down to things like sports, because sports are now celebrities in ways that they probably weren't even previously. Like, you had a couple guys who are on the Jordan level, but, like, everyone is. Wants to be their own brand. And so, like, managing a brand involves also, like, not saying certain things, whereas Jalen just doesn't abide by that. I personally find it refreshing, but again, like, as, like, the journalist impulse in me is like, I want to know everything about these guys. I want the truth of the person. But people, by and large don't want that.
- [45:41]
B
Well, in the spirit of that accountability, Justin, as we turn the focus on ourselves and potentially podcasting not being that different from IRL streaming, is there anyone you want to call out for flopping? Is there anyone who you want to challenge? Or are there. Was this the favorite podcasting season of your career?
- [45:59]
A
No, but I feel like I was. I was dialed in. Like, you look back on Some of those takes. I was on it.
- [46:05]
B
You were in all NBA Forum, there's no doubt.
- [46:08]
A
I mean, speaking of, should we get to number three on our list? Because this might be a good segue to talk about Nikola Jokic. So I have down here the silent majority of Jokic skeptics exist, and we are cranky. I actually have. We are mighty crossed out and put down cranky. It doesn't really translate to audio as well. That's fine.
- [46:31]
C
Great. Great visual joke. Yeah, thank you.
- [46:34]
A
I have to say, like, when the nuggets ultimately lost, I send out my string of snide texts and of course, and whatnot. That all happened. And that was fun. I thought that, like, it was a real run of, like, the best parts of Twitter and social media, where it's like people were just getting jokes off. There was the Miles Brown being like, oh, this is like Tupac getting shot for white bloggers. Which I thought was hilarious. There was, like, a lot of good stuff happening. And I go to bed, just, just, just like, tuck myself in, just feeling good about myself, right? I wake up the next morning and I'. Holy, what the fuck just happened? Like, an entire race war just broke out over this. It reminded me. I recently watched this Instagram reel, which was like, cool thing to start a sentence with if you're millennial.
- [47:19]
C
Let's go.
- [47:19]
A
Well, no, it's. It's just like, it was. It was a bit like a comedy bit where it's like people go around the couch and say the things that they're not supposed to think, but they actually think.
- [47:29]
C
Oh, it's like on your Austin comedy scene algorithm, right? That's really big on your. Nobody got that joke. Go ahead.
- [47:36]
B
I have no idea what you're talking about.
- [47:38]
A
No idea what you're talking about.
- [47:39]
C
Google Austin comedy scene. Go ahead.
- [47:41]
A
But you guys can get the setup, right? People are saying things that are, like, a little offensive, but, like, not over the top. And then the last person's like, well, I don't think mixed race couples should exist. And everyone's like, whoa, yeah, whoa. What's going on? Like, that's kind of how I felt with the yokis discourse, where, like, I was having some fun. I thought it was good to poke holes in this idea of Jokic, as I've mentioned in the past. And then I got to the end, like, and people are just like, outright being like, the middle class of bloggers are fucking, like, poisoning your mind. And I was like, I need. I just needed to step away. It was weird though, right? How quickly it flipped from Jokic, like, we need to be a little bit more rational about this guy. To. It seemed like everyone came out of the fudgeing woodwork and was like, let's get this motherfucker.
- [48:24]
B
See, this is the most just and take imaginable. The fact that you thought there was an acceptable period in which you were doing it right, but now everyone else is doing it wrong, when in reality, you're just, Alana, I'm in the drama.
- [48:35]
C
Like, you're the one who's kind of,
- [48:36]
B
like, stoking the fire, but also you're culpable. You're a part of this problem.
- [48:42]
A
No, I'm just. I'm just, like, warming my hands by the fire.
- [48:46]
C
Right.
- [48:47]
A
I don't think I started the fire.
- [48:49]
B
I don't think you started it, but you did, like, spread some lighter fluid around some dry wooded areas.
- [48:55]
C
It's always been burning since the world was turning. I mean, I take. I took a little bit of Umbridge with being accused of being weird about Jokic. I didn't know what the hell that meant by me. I mean, that was the. That was out there all. I think that was your wording exactly. Justin, you said that.
- [49:12]
A
I didn't mean. I didn't mean. I heard it from a lot of places. Oh. Like, I was. I was doing the weird podcasting thing where I was talking to the world at large, but you guys are the vehicle for the discussion. I actually think we're pretty normal about it overall. But there are some really fucking out there things where I was just like, come on. That's mostly where I stand. And I've tried to be pretty diligent about that where it's like, I think Jokic is great. We're a little over our skis at times talking about him and probably putting him on levels that he probably hasn't gotten to just yet.
- [49:41]
B
Yep.
- [49:42]
A
And that's kind of where I back off in the situation. It did feel like everyone felt the same and got to levels that I didn't even want to get to to.
- [49:51]
B
It's almost like he's just like pretty much every other superstar, which is to say, massively effective, and also has real drawbacks to his game that you have to steer around and plan for and have the personnel to accommodate. He's not unbeatable, clearly. And I think maybe that is the problem in the overestimation. Right. Is like, there's so much consensus building around data, around opinion. The thing about YIC is it's so much as much of an eye test conversation as anything like, you watch that guy play and the impact he has on offense is so obvious that it's hard not to be pulled in by that. That doesn't. Just because 98% of NBA media people agree that Nicola Jokic is great doesn't mean that he's a perfect basketball player. And I think that sort of like overstatement of consensus is what really bothers people who root for basically any other team or any other star out there. They just hear Jokic, Jokic, Jokic over and over and over. When in reality the margin between Jokic and Wemby or Mark Yokic and Shay, or Jokic and Luka or Jokic and Giannis has never been profound. It's always been like they are in a class of player, all of them together or whoever is there at, you know, year to year throughout Jokic's prime. It's just a lot of people favored Nikola Jokic and voted in for MVP and talked about him a lot. It didn't seem that crazy then. It doesn't seem that crazy now.
- [51:05]
C
I think in terms of total offensive impact, there is a pretty good distance between Jokic and pretty much every other superstar going to do that. He just has two way detriment and like structural things that you have to account for to build around him. And it introduce, it enters into a, a question into the discussion about his validity. Is like is Jamal Murray his second best player? Or it does he need Aaron Gordon more like. And I think defensively, you know, I just think I've said this on this pod. I feel like in the past couple months. I just think if you go the, the range of his impact in the ways when he's not shooting the ball, granted it, it's not going as well. It puts a big ding in that. But I, I do think that there's a significant gap between him. That's, that's one thing I would, I
- [51:44]
B
mean holistically though, like, do you think all, like at Jokic's best, was he far and away better than any other player in the league?
- [51:52]
C
I think the things that he's able to add are more dynamic than any other player in the league. Yeah, I do. I think in terms of just the ways he's able to play.
- [52:00]
B
That's not what I asked though. Like, I didn't say is it more dynamic. I'm saying like is it better? Is it more valuable? Like is Jokic, is it. Was it really so clear that Jokic was a distinct cut above literally everybody else?
- [52:10]
C
That's my answer. The dynamism and the heights of his dynamism are the things that make him more valuable, in my opinion. I just think that. I think she's great. I think she's an amazing player, and I think he can spam something. Granted, he has other ways. He is catch and shoot. He is. He gets out in transition, he gets the rim, all that kind of stuff. But he. He has, like, isolation production that he spams that, like, people can't stop. And if you have a button that you can press that people can't stop, push the goddamn button over and over and over again until, like, Giannis. We didn't fault Giannis for getting to the room. You know, it's just kind of what it is. But I just think in terms of, like, the kinds of, like, you know, floor raising way that he's able to, like, create for other teammates, he's able to be an isolation score. He's able to be either person in the pick and roll duo at a super efficient level. I just think the range of what he does and the heights of. Of. Of each one of those extra categories that he adds is higher than anybody else. I just. I think that personally, I think there
- [53:00]
A
are a couple things going on here, and I think it is more about discourse than it is about Jokic himself. And this gets pretty meta because I think the ringer is probably front and center with a lot of the Jokic stuff, and it's hard to divorce myself from what else is going on at the company with, like, what I feel. And I also feel like a big part about this is, like, the ringer, I think, is very present to a very online sort of person. And so it's not surprising to me that this feels like a very online sort of issue, and that, like, they are being held accountable for this in large part because, like, this is the terrain of, like, people who are on Twitter way too much. And so that's. That's a big part of it. I also noticed, like, there's a racial component to this as well. And one of the things I heard a lot was, like, LeBron would get killed if he lost to this sort of Wolves team at this point. And I think there's a lot of truth to this, and if anything, it reminded me a little bit of, like, what was going on with sinners in one battle after another, where it seemed like, because sinners caught so much for how much money it was making or wasn't making, and which was a discourse to begin with, I think. There was a lot of people being like, well, why don't you do that? For one battle, it wasn't so much about. Yeah, it was the pointing out the double standard. And I'm feeling a lot about that with. With the Jokic thing. And it's funny because I think about myself as kind of more of a casual movie fan, and with that one, I was like, yeah, no, that's true. But, like, movies are doing so poorly to begin with. Like, let's just. Let's all just get along and seem kumbaya, right? But with the LeBron thing, people brought that up. I was like, yeah, that is a double standard. This guy, he would be getting killed if he was LeBron. And so that is certainly at play here.
- [54:36]
B
It is in play, I think. I think it's a couple of things happening. One, broadly speaking, I completely agree with you about the racial component. Like, Jokic is held to a totally different standard than a lot of predominantly black players. It's like, a glaring thing that we all have to kind of navigate together. There's also just, like, a general softening, I think, as far as the way response to underperformance has changed over time, specifically since 20. Like, since. Since LeBron lost in the Finals to the Mavs. That media world, that fan landscape doesn't really exist anymore. Like, we're so much more rooted in, like, a very defensive stand culture or even kind of a coddling culture sometimes. And, yes, people still love to pile on when somebody loses or blows a series or anything like that, but that kind of vitriol, it's just different. And I think the ways in which we respond to Stars losing, just like LeBron took a heavy. A heavy brunt of it throughout the bulk of his career, in a way that not just Jokic, but also Giannis has not necessarily had to do in a way that Shea might not have to do in a way that Jason Tatum did not have to do. It's just different now.
- [55:39]
C
I think Tatum and Brown are kind of criticized in that way, if you think about it, which probably is. Is a. You know, it adds to. To the phenomena that you're talking about.
- [55:48]
B
But I'm here what you're saying, but there's, like, a people in Cleveland throwing batteries level of vitriol, that's, like, different.
- [55:55]
A
Yeah, I.
- [55:56]
C
Well, yeah, I'm not trying to argue. I'm not trying to, like, deflate the entire idea that Jokic is held to a different standard by saying that I' I wouldn't enter it as like, an into the court case, like, style thing there. I'm. I'm more interested too, in, like, you said, like, 2011, like, about the. How the landscape has changed. Is it. Is it the case that if you look at the timelines and the correlation between things that were introduced or, like, revolutions that happened, I mean, are there more sort of intangible, you can muddy it up kind of arguments that could be made with analytics, like, in like. Or they're just more. Is that kind of what it is? Whereas in the past, it was just like. Like he didn't make the shots when it mattered. Boom. End of discussion. That's the Sports center segment.
- [56:37]
A
I think. I think that's true. I think that we have so much information, there's at times where I feel almost overwhelmed, where it's just like, people don't make declarative statements anymore because we have so much here to, like, point this and that and even talking about something on a podcast at times, I feel like I'm just being comprehensive about all the possible arguments, not only because there's so much to go through and so much available data and information, but also to ward against someone coming in and being like, actually, you forgot that on February, January 13, that that guy did that and that just. Just like, there's so much to ward against that. I do think, like, we're. We're a little bit more comprehensive than we are more like, direct to our point about a lot of things.
- [57:16]
B
Yeah.
- [57:16]
A
I think this dovetails to another thing that kind of Rob was alluding to. I do think we got to a point where ring culture hit this really big backlash. I was never a big Kobe guy, and so, like, the rings over everything thing never really appealed to me. But I feel like our generation coming up on the Internet was very much against that. Like, I was fudgeing, holding up John Hollinger PR columns or per diem columns, like, they were like the holy totem of where I was basing everything off of, because it pierced through this very hyper masculine idea of understanding the game and very, like, direct truisms and like nothing else. Right. Emma's Wonder if we've swung the complete opposite way, where it's like, it's okay not to be like, rings above everything and not deal with the nuance. I feel like we do a lot of that in this podcast, even getting into the dirt of, like, some of these lesser teams that don't matter. But, like, did we go too far where we're with Jokic already ascending him into top 10 status or whatever. You want might want to be before he's really proven it to the same level that some of these other guys have. Or it's just like I brought up Dirk in the last podcast when we talked about this might have been a little too much mustard on that point after I reconsider that.
- [58:26]
B
Maybe you just say maybe Jokic has
- [58:28]
A
been on a different. But I think that's a prime example where it's like he went to two finals, he had one of the most miraculous playoff runs in recent history. Like, at a certain point, if we're saying the most valuable thing is consistent success at the highest levels of the game, are we losing sight of that because we're so worried about, like, being rings over our everything?
- [58:48]
B
Yeah, I, I think that's so well said. And specifically that fight that all of us are doing, us on this podcast, but also fans more broadly, to not be reductive about the things that really matter while still embracing the fact that, like, if you don't win, what is any of this for it? That that tension is just coursing through everything that's happening in basketball right now. And I don't think it's an accident too, that the LeBron kind of like test case that really kind of blew this stuff up in 2011 is really the dawn of player empowerment. And the shift in narrative of like, LeBron goes to the Heat and fails the Heat. Like, like he comes up short for his team in that moment in a way that now, like, yeah, there's conversations about the Nuggets, but it's not really a conversation about, like, Jokic not showing up for the Nuggets in the way they need. It's like, oh, you specifically, you, star, are not good enough defensively, and we're going to center the kind of conversation around that. But it's like ultimately where we're tethered and where we're coming to these conversations from is just dramatically different than it's ever been in a way that I think leads to a very strange discourse, leads to a very strange NBA conversation right now, but one that hopefully we're getting to some kind of bottom of some kind of resolution out of. Like, I hope there's a middle ground between the reductive rings only culture and the explaining away every possible caveat, excuse making. I hope there's a needle to thread there for all of us.
- [60:11]
A
That's been my hope, just finding like a middle ground on all of this. And I, I do think part of this, the last thing I've written down here is like, people love to, like, consume misery and to pile on on top of that. And so I just. You have all these different things. There was a real, like, perfect storm of just backlash in a way that, like, I haven't seen in a very long time. Like, LeBron is its own category. Like, that was just like. Like, a level of vitriol I have never seen and probably never will see, in part because I think a lot of people have reflected upon that. But, like, there was just such an immediate blowback out of nowhere for Jokic, and part of it is because, like, probably there wasn't an opportunity before. Right. He's been so successful in the past now. There was a clear example of his failures. It was just. It was nuts.
- [60:59]
B
Are there any other stars right now who you think might get a similar kind of reaction under similar circumstances? Granted, it's hard to take, you know, like, the Nuggets losing a series like this and extrapolate it to, like, the Thunder losing a series like this because the expectations are so much different for a defending champion with their kind of resume. But, like, are there any other stars that kind of touch that third rail like Jokic does right now?
- [61:23]
C
I think people are dying to bring Wimby down. I mean, there's a. There's a little. It's a small simmer, like, you hear here and there, but I feel like. Like, it. I think there's. There are people out there who are dying to see if this can continue because it was just such an overwhelming foaming at the mouth. I think, of everyone who watches basketball, whether you're into the nitty gritty and you like to see the stats that he affects, or you just like to see highlight dunks. Like, I think that. And then Shay, I think, too, gets. Shay's in a weird situation where he. His championship. He feels like he has to, like, do it again and validate it in a way, because there's a weird. There's a weird compartmentalizing. And I know I'm coming off of earlier saying, you know, the things that I just said about him versus Jokic, but there's. There is a weird thing where I feel like he probably thinks he needs to run it back a certain way because of the way last year's final finals went. I don't know, but it's not. It doesn't feel like the same kind of hero's journey thing that we ran LeBron through. Yeah, but those are just two guys. I don't know if there's anybody else you guys have in Mind, I think
- [62:19]
A
Wemby is a good poll. I think that's going to come eventually. It's a matter of when, not if. In part because I think people are just so turned off by the thinking man's approach he has to everything. And like, the try hard nature of like, trying to bring in the European style into here. There's one thing that fucking Americans hate is trying to bring anything from abroad over here. Not us again, just saying out loud. So that's going to happen and we should just ready ourselves for that. I think Luca is a prime example of this, if only because he represents the kind of divide we're saying with Jokic, where he does something that statistically is unrivaled. Like, like the numbers just absolutely love him. And we would say, like, this is great, he's an efficient, awesome scoring threat and playmaker and all this other stuff, but, like, impossible to watch. For me personally, like, it's a clear example of, like, the aesthetics don't match the results. And like, at a certain point, like, how do you balance the two? And I guess like, Embiid would be somewhere in the mix here because ultimately we're just talking about celebrities that we've had time to really invest in. And when you invest in something, I think the passion is going to spend split both ways.
- [63:22]
B
Yeah, I think I. I almost understand the Luca one more than any, just because it is such a matter of taste as far as the experience of watching him. But, like, I don't know how you could watch Wimby or Jokic and think like, this isn't adding up what they bring to the floor. Like Luca. Yes. You could talk yourself into thinking, oh, it's so ISO dependent, it's so specific. It's like what it does in terms of kind of freezing out other teammates in certain situations. I don't buy all of that. And I think personally there's like a lot of offsetting balance in terms of the defenders you can put on the floor, the kinds of teams you can put around him. Like, there's a way that you can understand Luca that puts him in the. In the conversation with these other guys. Like, how can you come away from a Spurs game and think, like, you know what, that wimpy guy, he just doesn't have it. He's just. He's just not on the level of these other elite players.
- [64:06]
C
He tricks, y'.
- [64:07]
A
All.
- [64:07]
C
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know that that's going on.
- [64:10]
A
Yeah, I think with, with Luca, it's just like the defensive side. I. I wouldn't. I mean, it's the same case as Jokic pretty much where it's just like he doesn't factor in there. And does that become more magnified over the course of a playoff series? What does it say about defense and especially considering it's more physical thing and what does that say about like what we aspire to for our sports? Like if football is like the, the most popular thing in America, like and that's more violent sport, if those guys aren't playing a more violent nature, but they're doing things a little bit more tangential to that. I think this is like there's a lot to unpack here that we don't have to get into, especially now that we're an hour into the show and we're not even halfway done. Sorry, but you're right. No, I think Luca makes a lot of sense there. Why don't we take a break? We'll do the rest of the show. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever find yourself scrambling to grab that special something for a last minute party, a spontaneous date, or even that impromptu game night at home? That's when Prime's same day delivery swoops in. That essential item you thought you'd missed delivered the plan, saved the win secured. Because with prime, same game delivery, you can grab it and go before the moment passes you by. Same name delivery. It's on Prime.
- [65:19]
C
Visit Amazon.comprime to find millions of items
- [65:22]
A
delivered fast available in select areas. Terms apply. All right, number four. Beware the playoff scapegoats. I feel like the first round was a big win for guys who have been lamb based over the course of the past couple years. In the playoffs we had catch pretty much being the decisive factor. I would say you could talk about Brunson being great as he typically is. OG was on an absolute another level. I don't remember him missing a single shot, but like Cat being the deciding factor on a good side for this team reminded me of like how he very much can flip from either being the thing that makes the series or breaks the series and is no in between. So he had Cat, we had Go Bear stepping up on Jokic, and then we had the Cavs, including our guy, Jared Allen, just looking ferocious, incredible in that second half. At the end getting the flagrant, telling him to go home. Like I never seen that guy play like that like ever before. And I absolutely loved it. So the scapegoats, they're back.
- [66:21]
B
They're back. I would Other Paul George into this mix too. Like for all the heat who took for playoff p to have the kind of series that he did deserves his moment in the sun. But I think of all the guys you mentioned, I am most moved by Kat right now. Like watching him. I was just amazed at watching a version of Carl Anthony Towns who stayed out of foul trouble for basically the entire series, who ran the offense for the Knicks and kept his turnovers down at the same time, who played legit good defense all throughout and was like aggressive in looking for ways to score but never really veering out of control. Like that is not a Carl Anthony Towns that I knew. But now I do and I, I can't get enough of it. I hope he can continue to be this guy, but maybe he is just on the seesaw. Maybe, maybe it is going to be one or the other every time out. But this version I thought was maybe the best playoff version we've gotten of Cat yet.
- [67:11]
C
What do we think about. Do we think that Ingram is in the scapegoaty? Is he in the same kind of notorious category? Because I know he was hurt but I was joking with some people about I feel like the Raptors vibe. I know that they were less capable, but I felt like their vibe went up. Am I wrong? That was my vibe detector off on that. Because their synergy on offense seemed better without him. And I was just kind of like, I don't know that he acquitted himself very well. Just in terms if we're going to be lauding the guys who got off the hook. I don't know that Ingram, you know, covered himself with glory in terms of the way they looked after he was out.
- [67:46]
A
So you're saying we only have. We have a 3/4 scapegoat approval rating.
- [67:51]
C
I'm just throwing that in there. Mix it up a little bit.
- [67:53]
B
Yeah, I don't think I'm allowed to talk about Brandon Ingram anymore. I think my, my stance on this is pretty well articulated.
- [68:01]
A
I mean, was I at like at halftime trying to think of cool names to, to like talk about the approach of, of Shed Barnes and CMB all together? Did I settle on strong ball as a sort of like small ball but like we're big and beefy and like pushing guys around.
- [68:18]
C
You got a chonkysaurus. Thank God you didn't come back to that one. Of course. You strong ball. Are you. Are you still. Are you holding strong with that one? Are you going to.
- [68:25]
A
Well, they didn't win, so we didn't. We don't have to get into it. I never have to put that losers
- [68:28]
B
don't get like names.
- [68:29]
A
Yeah, I was considering it, but honestly, they kind of got punked by Jared Allen, who had 14 points and 10 rebounds in the third quarter alone. Like, that was the classic case where it's just like, if you're going to be big, be the bigger team and if you have two centers who can do that, like, you do have to push back on them because they were getting pushed around. Shed in particular just was like kind of magical in that first half and like has been this postseason like they were. That team has something. I don't know to what end. Like, will the Raptors ceiling be changed if they're just going into full strong ball? But like, like, there was an identity that carved out there. This just. The Cavs were the more talented, better suited team for the matchup. It just took them so long to get there, as it typically does.
- [69:12]
B
But it took them that long because the Raptors were that disruptive because their defense was that good. And that is a credit to the guys you mentioned. Justin, like, I'm. I was very impressed with Toronto's run in the series. I'm very bullish on what they can be with the bulk of this team. I'm just not so bullish on the Brandon Ingram component of it. But as far as the scapegoats go, like, to get a Jared Allen win in a Game 7 through physicality, plus a James Harden winning a Game 7, plus the Cavs overall kind of like rescuing themselves, participating in their own rescue, maybe. The way to put it. I mean, they. They needed it. They needed it. Not, not a minute too late. Like, they really did show up in exactly the timing that they needed to. But I don't know, do you. Do you guys feel super great about where the Cavs are even after they did kind of turn things around in the second half?
- [69:58]
C
No. I mean, they had to really summon a. Because that. That gave the vibe of that game at halftime was very, very in. In doubt. I mean, you know, they had to go on a huge run and credit to him for doing it. And Jared Allen was a huge part of it. But I wanted to give Jamal Shed my spackler of the game. Spackler of the day. Yeah, he was spackling the first cracklin and presented by hot mud.
- [70:18]
A
Yeah.
- [70:18]
C
Yes, he was. He was laying down the hot mud and scoring. You know, Harden could not stay in front of him. He was getting deflections. He looked good, but yeah, going 31.3% from the field. He didn't. He didn't end strong. But yeah, I mean it's. It's hard to. It's going to be interesting to see where their conversations go from here. You know, they're. They're losing Maasai so you know, there's another person who is maybe a part of that. I don't know if you wanted to.
- [70:44]
B
Yeah, he's been gone.
- [70:45]
C
He was removed from that. The decision making. But yeah.
- [70:49]
B
So I feel like how we dedicated so much time to talking about what the Magic need when we could have just said they need more Spacklers. Like that is legit the problem in Orlando.
- [70:58]
A
I want the. The graphic to come up be like. And like spackle something on the screen. Do we have that sort of CGI budget?
- [71:05]
B
Like a swipe across? Yeah, only if you make the sound effects.
- [71:11]
A
I could do that kind of. On this note, I wrote down my first team all playoffs team. Wanted to give it to you guys. Let me know what you think here. So SGN Wemby with a bullet cade also I think probably no arguments there. I have cat on here, third best plus minus in the playoffs. The other two are Thunder players, which no surprise that two players from a 4.0team made it up there. But Cat is here and I also have Gobert because of his defense, meaning so much to that series. Second team. OG Brunson, Maxi, LeBron. Embiid.
- [71:48]
B
I like it.
- [71:49]
C
Embiid sticking in there.
- [71:51]
A
Third team is where I put the losers. Barnes, Paulo, Mitchell, Fox. Then I.O. and CJ McCollum are sharing a spot.
- [71:58]
B
Wow. Congrats to I.O. for getting in there. I. I actually think there might be an argument for Scotty Barnes over LeBron. I. I know that you're trying to move the losers to the third team, but Scotty played a hell of A series and LeBron when. When he did kind of run into the wall, ran into it quite hard.
- [72:14]
A
Yeah. All right, first team, all playoffs, lock it in.
- [72:19]
B
Congratulations to all. All the winners of an award.
- [72:22]
C
We just made up LeBron's mind games in that series though, man. They're not many players in the world that could do that. That. That was. That was wild.
- [72:33]
A
All right, one last lesson and then we'll get on to the second round preview. Respect the regular season, just two teams that won on Sunday had homecourt advantage. Not a surprise there, especially after getting through game six. The trauma of that in different ways for those teams. And also the Thunder have had eight days off when they ultimately play the next game. The spurs now have six days off before they play. I just want. And I've said this before, but I really want this to happen. I want someone to have a stream of what the Thunder players are doing when everybody else is just, like, throwing haymakers and just knocking themselves silly.
- [73:07]
B
Yeah.
- [73:07]
A
Like, I want to see them, like, in their jammies, watching Euphoria together and, like, just debating whether or not at 7pm like, oh, should we get ice cream? Or is that too late because we don't want too much sugar too late into the night.
- [73:20]
B
I like how part of this conversation is like, maybe Jaylen Brown should stream less. And we're like, maybe the Thunder should stream more Also.
- [73:27]
C
Justin just absolutely projecting his own routine by what. By what his description there. Is that fair?
- [73:34]
A
Yeah, I watched the Euphoria last night. No jammies. It was a little.
- [73:37]
C
And you made a tough decision about ice cream too. Is that what you're trying to say?
- [73:41]
A
No, I always go for it. I don't have a game to suit up for this week, so figure was fine.
- [73:46]
B
Got to live your best life, honestly. I do want that for you.
- [73:50]
A
I don't. I don't want the Twitch stream, though. I want, like, just the. The camera on them almost like we do, like, pandas who are giving birth or something like that. I just want to watch them, to see what they're doing as everybody. And picture in picture would be great too, because it's like, oh, shed just, like, about to punch this other guy or just, like, ramming his way into just a hard, physical series, and then they're just, like, braiding each other's hair. And what all of this is.
- [74:14]
B
I hear what you're saying, but also, that kind of is what streaming is like. There are people who are just like, on Twitch, like, here's me for 24 hours, Truman show style. Like, you're gonna. You're gonna follow along with me.
- [74:27]
C
I get the sense from that team that it would be very, very boring. So I don't know. Yeah.
- [74:33]
B
Wow. You don't think they live rich and full lives that you would be invested in?
- [74:37]
C
No, I just think they're. They're. I think that's one of their superpowers, is how boring they are. They don't. They don't have a lot nonsense that. That other teams put up with.
- [74:45]
B
They've just convinced you of that. But one of the lessons of the Truman show is that we can be invested in the mundanity of everyday life. You know, like, if you just show this in front of us as if it's a TV show. We will buy, like, you know, what's going on between Truman and his wife and whether she's trying to, like, sell, like, mail order knives in the kitchen.
- [75:05]
C
I've never seen that movie all the way through. Believe it or not. I was gonna say the. The. The thing that we could do is that that's built in is we could just have Chet's dad record it with this little camera that he records.
- [75:16]
B
The camcorder unlocked it.
- [75:17]
C
I don't know if he took that to the NBA. Did he stop, like, camcordering?
- [75:21]
B
I haven't seen him with it.
- [75:23]
A
Pick it back all booker, like, just analog style.
- [75:27]
C
His dad used to sit in the stands at Gonzaga games with this little camcorder and would record the game back and forth. I don't know. I can't believe you all don't remember this.
- [75:34]
B
It's the most sophisticated way to get game film.
- [75:36]
A
That's what so Rob's gonna do with his kids.
- [75:40]
B
I already do.
- [75:40]
C
You know, his existing kids.
- [75:43]
A
Yeah. All right, those are our lessons from round one.
- [75:46]
B
Well, before we leave the regular season bit, I want to float one sub regular season lesson by you because I wonder, like, does the regular season right now tell us who the best teams are, or is it just kind of rewarding the teams that honor it? Because overall, it's not as if, like, the high seated teams, at least some of them did not struggle, but when they get to a game seven like that, being able to play a game seven at home like that is a genuine and legitimate advantage. But do you think that the regular season is still like a. I don't know, a leveling device that really gives us a ton of information as far as, like, who the best team is.
- [76:22]
A
I think it mattered in the west in terms of seating, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the two teams that we're all feeling great about are one and two at this point. But I think it's something that we talked about before where it's like, I think we need to pay more mind to teams revealing who they are in the regular seasons. And I don't think it's a coincidence, especially with Denver specifically, that a lot of the issues that they run up against defensively, injuries mounting, really just kind of caught up to them again. I almost feel like we ignored who they were to kind of uphold who we think they could be. Cavs. Same example of this where it's like, oh, Harden's here to, like, fix all these issues. A lot of the problems that they had seemed almost intrinsic to the team where it's just like you get into big stakes situations and they just play with a nervous energy that they just can't extricate from their team. And so I look at the, I look at the standings like the Sixers are an outlier just because of the injury situation.
- [77:16]
B
Right.
- [77:17]
A
I guess the Celtics to a certain degree because they were good even without Tatum. But by and large like kind of who these teams are. The Rockets. Rockets, a prime example of this. These are who these teams were to us in the regular season.
- [77:28]
B
Yeah, I think the part of that I'm still trying to make sense of is the Celtics and the Nuggets. And I bring up them specifically because those were two really high powered regular season offenses. And when you look at who's still alive, all of these teams are above average offenses. Like all of anyone who was like we are defense first and defense only. Those teams either didn't make the playoffs or they already got bounced. The only team that's below average on offense, and it's like by the slimmest of margins and even then, not really is the Philadelphia 76ers, who as you said, Justin, are just like an aberration. Every possible respect. But otherwise it's like if you can't run consistent high level offense, you're just not going to be able to advance even past the first round anymore. It used to be you're not going to be able to last multiple rounds. Now you're just kind of bounced right out of the gate. Why are the Nuggets and the Celtics so different than that? Other than clearly they hit individually, difficult matchups that challenge them in very specific ways. But is there anything more to it than that?
- [78:22]
C
Yeah, you mentioning in the offense thing, I was looking at this earlier because I was trying to look if there was a pattern among the teams that were still in and out. And yeah, you're right. I mean the, the only team that these are the bottom five offenses in totality according to synergy, that are still in the playoffs. It was the Raptors, the Rockets, the Pistons, the Magic and the Trailblazers. And the Pistons are the only team that. And I think it's just, it could be you could argue a function of them playing a team that was just more incompetent on offense or just more, fewer options. I mean the Magic, you know, granted Franz was out, so I don't know. You, you hear a lot of times this argument in the NBA about like who. Because there are these movements of defensive ideas that come along or maybe the whistle is being, you know, called a certain way based on, you know, trends or whatever's going on in the league. And you'll hear this question of like, like our offense is ahead of defenses right now. I still think that, you know, overall, I don't know if it necessarily is a commentary on that specifically, but overall, just. I don't know that it airs from what's traditionally true in the playoffs. It's just that you need versatility and options and that comes in the form of star players. And the Pistons have options, you know, or the, the. The Sixers have had more options kind of come to the forefront. The Celtics didn't have as many options in terms of like their drink stirring, you know, creators at the end of the day. So. So yeah, I think that's kind of what we're seeing. Those are the teams that are still in.
- [79:40]
A
This is a little tangential to what you're talking about, but one pet theory I have going in the back of my mind a lot during the playoffs has been just is the spurs model of doing things where they're just loading up on creative guards, kind of the contrast and the ultimate trump card or the leveling up from where we were, where it was just like load up on defensive three and D wings. Are we now seeing the next evolution of it where it's just like if anything, the Celtics three point shooting is actually a little bit passe, especially in contrast to what the Sixers were able to compile where it's just a lot of creative ball handling. Guards that have juice and you can attack mismatches kind of like on the fly. Now a lot of that you have to give credit to the big hulking like hall of Famer in the middle of the paint there. Like Wemby just opens things up for you be does that as well. Maybe that is just the thing, those guys just being dominant in certain ways. But like, like, I don't know, we saw it even in the regular season where spurs almost having something on the Thunder in a certain way where it's just like they have so much juice. Like it doesn't really matter how many like lines of waves of wing defenders that you have. If that is like something that can win out there. But I don't think we have enough like, like information to say so. Yeah, but it's like something in the back of my mind, I'm constantly percolating.
- [80:54]
B
Well, I think there's a pretty clear line between the ideas that you're explaining, Justin and The ones that Kyle is. In terms of. Of like what options give you. And the way you have options is through having lots of different entry points for your offense, lots of different ball handlers on the floor. I also don't think it's like, it's not a coincidence that the teams that are surviving are not super highly reliant three point shooting teams. Like, there's only one team in the top 10 in terms of three point rate that survived to this point. And it's because you need the balance, right? Like, you need to be a team that when threes aren't falling, you have good mid range offense that you have good.
- [81:26]
C
The Cavs, right?
- [81:27]
B
Absolutely. Like the Cav. The Cavs are the one team that has survived to this point. Otherwise you have a lot of teams in the bottom 10, some teams in that middle 10. No one who's really living and dying by the three. Like, they all can do it and they can turn to it if you leave those guys open. But they all have other avenues to score. Like, balance is really what's driving every successful offense in the league right now.
- [81:47]
C
Yeah, I've. That's something I've been eyeballing a lot is like, just I think teams are less willing to live and die by like, will this guy or will he not make a shot? Like, I mean, it still matters, but. But I think that's why you're seeing, you know, in a Saar survive or you just look at players. Like we talked about Kevin Herder, we talked about, you know, Sam Houser's having trouble out there. We talked about, you know, Grady Dick can't get on the floor. It just feels like drive. The value of a driver has, has shifted a little bit in a way that I think is. Is significant.
- [82:19]
A
Yeah. All right, let's move on to round. Round two. Now, where do you guys want to start? Rob, you want to give us what you're watching? We each brought one thing.
- [82:26]
B
Yeah, I am watching how the Cavs. I'm watching how the Pistons feel against the Cavs. And will this series feel like a pressure release for a Detroit offense that has been so stuck in the mud? You know, like, in a matter of days, the Pistons have gone from this, like, nervy team on the brink of a historic collapse to really kind of enforcing their will against the magic to now, I think probably by the odds, being the favorite to make the Eastern Conference finals out of their specific series. This is going to be a dramatically different series for Detroit, just in terms of the facts on the Ground and the physicality they're going to have to deal with. I know that the regular season matchups between the Cavs and the Pistons were pretty tight, but, like, Jalen Duran, for example, can go through an Evan Mobley or a Jared Allen in a way that he really struggled to with Wendell Carter Jr. And so I'm kind of looking up and down Detroit's roster and thinking, okay, now that the temperature has cooled a little bit, the stakes are not like we're about to implode, but instead we can play our version of basketball. It's going to be a little more accommodating of the way we play. Who are the guys who might feel a little bit more comfortable?
- [83:29]
C
I think.
- [83:29]
B
I think Duran is the place to start, but there's a couple other guys that I think are worth singling out there, too. To me, Duran, like, having a really good Game seven, but also having that physical advantage. I just. I really hope that this is a chance for him to kind of put a stamp on what was a very successful regular season for him. Dennis Jenkins, also an awesome, like, really important Game seven performance from him. I think the combination of, after really never being comfortable for the vast majority of that first round series, finally getting a breakthrough, and then now getting to play against Cleveland's guards, like that could be a really huge moment for him. That could lead to some pretty consistent offense. I also think Duncan Robinson, where you put Duncan Robinson on the floor, as Kyle was kind of alluding to, with guys like Kevin Hur and Sam, how are all these like, like, targetable defenders? To varying degrees. The Magic can do that, right? The Magic can hunt Duncan Robinson. How successful are the Cavs at hunting players like him? I think it requires a lot of, like, okay, now Max Stru is the ball screener. Now Sam Merrill is the ball screener. Like, it gets them into actions that they're kind of comfortable with but are not necessarily their most effective default sets. And so I wonder, for someone like Duncan, who shot okay in the first round, could he be even more comfortable on the floor if he's not feeling like he's constantly under attack?
- [84:41]
C
Yeah, I do think that there's going to be a push and pull there where, you know, the Cavs to kind of reach their optimal offensive state. You know, they want to get shooters, they want to get spacing on the floor, and I think that that could enable some of Detroit's natural advantages, like the physicality going to the rim that weren't, as you know, on display against the Magic. So I Think that's a positive? I. I don't know. I still. I can't decide if I'm coming away from that Toronto series feeling like Toronto took a. Is. Is that Toronto series in the way that they're built there? They're built going to be a projection of, like, are we just going to see another version of that in this Detroit series? What do you all think? Because stylistically, it feels like a similar challenge that they're going to be facing.
- [85:21]
A
I think so. And honestly, my mind always goes to Mobley in these sorts of situations. And it's so funny because, like, every game I'm wrestling with, like, how much, like, I. I hate watching him practically, where he'll have these moments where you're just, like, ready to bury him and be like, this guy never gonna figure it out. And then he'll have these stretches where you're like, oh, Evan Mobley, you're alive. Look at you shooting threes and being a little bit more aggressive about getting your shot. And then the next game, the whole script starts over again. And I just think, like, the Pistons are probably gonna be better about seizing upon those sorts of advantages than Toronto team that seemed like it was like, figuring things out on the fly, especially considering some of the injuries that mounted over time. There was. And so, on the one hand, I'd be like, Mobley could. Could really swing this series. On the other hand, I think the Pistons are probably well suited to knock him out and, like, make sure he never even gets going to start with.
- [86:11]
C
Yeah, this was fairly easy for me. My first thing was, like, I'm going to be fascinated to see what Old Man LeBron does against the Thunder. Just, I think is Luka. Luka does it sounds like he's not even close to being back, but that's not even what I picked. I am watching.
- [86:25]
A
I mean, you could lose an appendix and still show up in the first round. Apparently possible.
- [86:29]
B
So dominate in the first round.
- [86:30]
C
Crazy. Down. Down is up, up is down. Cats and dogs living together. Nothing makes sense anymore. But how will one French Revolution drop Revolution respond to the other? I just think like, the elite Drop coverage of the. The. The spurs versus the. The Wolves. These two teams, I think, like the defense, like, they're used to seeing that their players have seen it every day. You know, I know teams don't practice as much as they used to. I just think that that is going to be a fascinating thing. And then within that these teams played. The last time they played, it was in one week in January of within seven days of each other and those games were decided by combined four total points. Castle has not played well against the Wolves this year. He had, he was a combined 4 for 19 and he had nine turnovers in those two games. What's interesting though is that DiVincenzo was on him a lot in those games. Trailing him, bothering him, no DiVincenzo there. So I guess it's kind of like if we're going to get. Do you all think that Castle has like matured in the past few months in a way that is different from earlier in the season? Because I, I kind of think he has and then yeah, I just think the, the two drop, the drop coverages between those two teams who's going to shoot better? What's it going to come down to? Because I think defensively they project in a similar way.
- [87:49]
B
I do think Castle has grown up in the last few months. I also think even in just the last couple weeks getting to do this against the Blazers is just like a great on ramp for a series like this. Having Castle be in his flow taking pull up jumpers against like a sagging defender, even if it's one exaggerating that sag, that's a great entry point. And to, to be honest, if you were going to create like a, A like training wheels version of the Wolves that a team would have to play like Denny's downhill aggressiveness plus the physicality and the defense of the Blazers is like, and cling in size and, and Rob Williams, all that like collectively does sort of mirror a lot of what the Wolves bring to the table. Not nearly as good, not nearly as balanced. But as far as what the spurs could be walking into this series with, I think they're pretty well suited for it.
- [88:32]
A
Yeah, I was going to say like the Wolves are almost the charizard version of probably the charmander of the Blazers where it's just like it's a big physical team that wants to push you around and really challenge you defensively. Whereas like that's the Wolves mo and like you marry that with Anne Edwards. Like is he going to play. It sounds like he wants to play for game one as we're recording this, we'll see if that happens. But overall they're just like the type of battle tested playoff ready team like cliche, cliche, cliche sort of team that like tends to like force younger teams to have to figure things out that they typically wouldn't. And so on the one hand I would like to think that there's enough creative juice on the spurs side and now that they've got things rolling and Wemby playing so well that this wouldn't be much of a problem considering the injuries on the Wolves side. On the other hand, I think the Wolves are just fucking dogs and they're just like, built for this sort of situation. And so at the very least, this, I think this is a classic thing that I said about the Blazer series was like, I think this might actually just go longer than you think while the spurs still win that one.
- [89:30]
B
Yeah, I don't. I don't count the Wolves out of anything anymore. Like, they will just extend possessions, they will extend runs, they will find ways to get their feet under them. Like, they, they've proven to be just like kind of an unsinkable team in their own terms. Like, they might drive themselves aground from time to time, but, like, they're not a group that's easy to fully shake, even if you are as good as the Spurs. So I'm with you. I think that one is going to be an extended. I don't think the spurs are going to have anything easy for them the whole way. And Julius Randall remains just like such a fascinating wild card in any matchup like this because, I mean, I assume we're going to get Gobert on Wemby still quite a bit, and we saw that in the regular season, but I think Randall's going to get a crack at that assignment, too, and is going to get a chance to be like six, nine, Drew Holiday. And like, can you. Can you wedge yourself under Wemby with that physicality in that kind of manner? I can't wait to watch it.
- [90:20]
C
I think. Yeah, I think the big forwards are one of the X factors in this series because the spurs, the way they're built, they don't really. I mean, you got Harrison Barnes, Basel is a bigger guy, but like, you've got the Nas Reed and Julius Randle part of it, which is a, you know, two sides of a coin that they don't. Yeah, like, the, the spurs just don't really have that big four on their team. I mean, if you look. Can you all think of one as. I can't. I mean, like, Carter Bryant's bigger, but
- [90:43]
A
he didn't play Bryant and they have
- [90:45]
B
Shimpany to guard those guys and he's not really built for that. And I think we should also mention, like, Minnesota had real success playing Randall and Nas and Gobert altogether in the first round and that that could be a look that they go to again and just kind of like, pulverize Devon Fissell on the block?
- [91:00]
A
I think the question is, like, do you pull the two big lineup out of your back pocket? Like, how much have they actually, like, worked on that? Like, is it going to be effective? Like, I thought they were better in small ball in the first round than with Cornett on the floor. So, like, I don't know, but, like, you're right. They are relying on wings. Where does the extra size come from when they need it?
- [91:16]
C
Yeah. And you can do that when you have the best big player in the world. You can align your roster like that.
- [91:22]
A
Yeah, I have down is Cat the key to the entire east at this point, which didn't think I was ever going to get here, but all of a sudden the. The path has parted for the Knicks. And while they struggled at times against the Hawks, like, it does feel like they are the team probably that would be the favorite. Unless Detroit can really just lift itself up by the bootstraps here and set second round. But the matchups are going to be fascinating here because, like, if you're starting with Cat, then you're hoping that he guards Embiid, and then like, that is a. A history that goes back several years and several headlocks from different eras. I don't think that's like, going to be their best look. But then if you're going double big, like, are you asking Cat to guard Paul George? Like, how is that going to work? On the other hand, like, is Paul George going to be able to guard Cat? And like, is Cat? So. So Cat ultimately, to me, like, just makes the difference for everything for the Knicks. And I think in this series in particular, the matchups work. So, like, he probably has to do the same thing he did in the last series. Again, he probably will.
- [92:21]
B
And I think defensively, I mean, the other option is you could put him on guys like Kelly Oubre, Right? Like, it's like you can move OG around the floor basically as you need in order to get Cat wherever he needs to go. As long as they have that flexibility, I think the Knicks are going to be in good shape. But this is where the foul trouble could rear its very ugly head. Right? Like, you can just imagine if they do play Cat at the five to start, him picking up two quick fouls against Embiid, him having to, like, deal with that hanging around his neck the entire game. And so it might be worth starting bigger or even starting someone else on Embiid out of the gate just for the sake of kind of alleviating some of that particular tension. But therein lies the problem with guarding the Sixers. Like, you start moving all of those pieces around and you are going to give up something thing.
- [93:03]
C
Yeah. OG Seems like a. I. I would be tempted to go OG on embed early just for that reason, because you just get. Just get. Because he's had some. I don't if I would call it success, but he has experience guarding Embiid. And I was just gonna. I alluded to this earlier. It's just crazy that we. We think that these two teams have so much history, but that when they played in 2024, I did think it was hilarious that I'm. I wrote down here. Another thing, too is like, Knicks. How many Knicks fans will be in Philly? Because that was one of the funniest things from the whole playoffs, the anger about that. So. And then it be like, like putting the call out to, like, don't let that happen again. But these teams were just very different the last time they played. Like, Bridges and Cat weren't on the Knicks. You know, originally they got Cat as a response to. That was at the height of the like, okay, Boston has Porzingis. Right. It wasn't as much.
- [93:48]
B
Right.
- [93:49]
C
I'm sure it was. Wasn't just one player, but then, you know, Paul George and BJ Weren't on the Sixers, but then, you know, Tobias was a big part. So they're just very different team. So that. That part of it was. Was fascinating to me. There's a lot more in the air than I think than there are. There are a few mainstays returning things, but there's. There are a lot of. There are a lot of unknowns in this one.
- [94:08]
B
I mean, I think it's fair to flip it too. And Cat is such a good shooter that it, like, that could really bother Embiid. Like, Embiid is not quick on a closeout. He's so kind of lumbering right now. When he does try to make some explosive moves. I think there's just like, a lot of ways that the Knicks offensively can leverage Cat, not just with his passing, but the combination of the driving and the shooting has been so potent. And that's.
- [94:27]
A
That's.
- [94:27]
B
I think that's a particularly tough thing for Embiid to wrangle right now.
- [94:31]
A
Yeah. It's weird, though. Am I right in assuming that, like, the Knicks are probably the favorite in the east? If you were to do the Vegas
- [94:38]
B
odds, I think they have to be.
- [94:39]
C
I picked them in the Finals. Like I was saying, I wondered about that choice at times. But we're back. I think I'm okay. We'll see.
- [94:46]
A
A week ago we were worried that they'd be upset by the Hawks and now all of a sudden like, like, how do they play with that sort of expectation? I don't know if they've ever really had that to deal with. But on top of that, just. I think it speaks to like the east is a total mess and you could sell me on any of these teams at this point. It's true.
- [95:02]
B
But I think the Knicks proved a lot specifically in bouncing back from those back to back one point losses. Like that's the kind of thing that I was worried about all year. And they weathered it and they got through it and they had the most emphatic win in modern playoff history. So I think they've proven a lot and certainly deserve that benefit of the doubt.
- [95:18]
A
All right, before we get out of here, Masayo Jiri is going to Dallas. He's got. What does he get first? The Stetson, Rob or do we get the cowboy boots?
- [95:27]
B
I think you go boots first. You start from the ground up. Always.
- [95:30]
A
Okay. Do you actually buy spurs or are those more like. You only wear those to the, to the hoot nannies.
- [95:36]
B
I think it's more functional. You don't see people just jangling about with spurs on their boots. That's. That would be a ridiculous thing to do downtown.
- [95:44]
C
Sure, somebody's done it.
- [95:46]
A
Kyle, have you done it?
- [95:48]
C
I've never worn spurs. No, I haven't. I know, I know, I know. I tout my ruralness all the time, but have not.
- [95:54]
A
Is Kentucky like a cowboy boots sort of place? Doesn't strike me as that more work boot.
- [95:59]
C
A lot of, A lot of like Justin or like Ariat, you know, kind of things. It's, it's. You see a lot of dudes wearing like T shirts with jeans with kind of work boot kind of thing. Yeah, leather work boot.
- [96:13]
A
Masai is now in charge of. I. I guess this is an up and coming team. Although I think just spiritually just one of the bigger messes in recent history. It isn't surprising to me that they went and. And paid him and I did take note of the fact that he's not, in addition to being team president for the Mavericks, is also now the alternate governor, which might suggest that like he owns a part of the team a slice. But he. It was for so long in the. Sam Presti's place where Sam is now, where it's like your team is a mess. Go out and hire the biggest, baddest guy out on the market. The Knicks did this. They circled him for a very long time. He was rumored to be in the mix for other places. Didn't ultimately go there, left Toronto. But it's just like when you have to just completely turn your team over to someone. Like, he's the guy. And so I give Dumont credit. Patrick Dumont, who is, like, the spiritual owner of this team at this point. I give him credit because, like, what we say about good owners is that they'll just let the basketball people just do their thing. And he did that to start with, and unfortunately, it undid everything that they had going for him. But I think this is kind of what you want. Turn it over to someone with a proven track record who knows what they're doing, who's built two separate contenders.
- [97:24]
B
I don't know.
- [97:24]
A
Ultimately, all's well that ends well. How do you think this is being received in Dallas, Rob?
- [97:28]
B
I mean, quite well. Like, it. It is a coup of a kind. And as you said, in part because so many teams have chased after Messiah unsuccessfully to. To come run their own front offices. And I think in thinking about the Mavs options, there was, like, the promote Jason Kidd level decision making into the front office. And I'm like, oh, you probably don't want to do that. Then there's like, the. Okay, you formalize a deal with Dennis Lindsay, who's already been, like, a consultant and advisor with the team for a while. Like, maybe he runs basketball operations. That'd be fine. Dennis Lindsay has been pretty successful building some teams, particularly with the Jazz. Like, the track record is there. This is something different, and I think it's a different level of ambition. I think it's the kind of thing where the championship team that Messiah built was in part bravado and in part calculated risk. And in part, like, I think maybe the most important section of it, it is, like, the willingness to make difficult decisions. Right. Like, the Kawhi trade is as much about, like, hunting after someone like Kawhi as it is being willing to trade away a franchise icon like DeMar DeRozan. Like, you have to make those sorts of concessions if you really want to play with the biggest teams in the league. I think the Mavs have a lot of those decisions ahead of them. Like, they're. Yeah, they're not trading Luka Doncic, obviously, anytime soon. They're not going to be trading Cooper Flag anytime soon. But, like, this is a team that needs a lot of work, that needs a lot of reimagining. And reconstruction to figure out what the next like successful vision of it is going be. Messiah is a, is a great candidate for that. I have to say of everyone who would potentially be on the board.
- [98:54]
C
Yeah. How much do we think the combination of confidence in who you know, reigning rookie of the year, Cooper Flag, how much confidence in him combined with Masai has a lot of great relationships with stars in the NBA that just throwing it out there. I mean would is that something that we could see an accelerated Texas timeline? Granted those are are aging stars at this point. They're not getting any younger. But is that feeding any excitement in Mavs territory? I wonder.
- [99:24]
B
Masai getting this job in part on the basis of his strong relationships is giving very like Nico Harrison but good. You know, it's like that was the line in hiring Nico Harrison in the first place. But it's different when you have those relationships and also the team building chops and also like I want to give massage credit in terms of what happened in Toronto. Like, like sure, by the end things unraveled a little bit. Maybe he held on a little too tightly to certain guys. Maybe he was a little checked out by the end of his tenure. But like he gave that team a confidence and identity from the front office that we just really don't see many executives do. And the Mavs are many things right now. Like they do have promise. Like having Cooper Flag alone has to be like reason number one why Messiah Jiri takes this job. But it also opens up a lot of like it's kind of like a blank canvas as far as what the identity of the future of the Mavs is going to be like. He is a very versatile player and like at the crux of so much, who's to say what this team like wants to be chasing and channeling for the next five years.
- [100:22]
A
You don't think it was the money and the no state taxes and the potential ownership share?
- [100:26]
B
I think it's all of that. But it's like think about the sequence of events that has to happen for Messiah Jiri to be like president of basketball operations for the Mavs. Like the most unthinkable trade in NBA history has to happen. That executive has to be basically chased out of town and then the mass have to improbably land the number one overall pick. And then he's even willing to consider taking the big bag of money because this isn't the first big bag of money that Messiah Jiri's been offered.
- [100:51]
A
Yeah, I look at actually outside of his potential connections To Giannis and some of the stars of the league. I look at like the work he did on the fringes in order to build a contender in Toronto to begin with. Like turning two way guys and guys in the G League, Fred Van Vliet first and foremost into certain things. And for a while that kind of was the DNA for the Mavs as they were languishing like waiting to turn from Dirk to the next thing. Like they found the Dorian, Finney Smiths, even Jalen Brunson was obviously a huge find there. Like those are the type of things that matters for a franchise, that Dallas has some market muscle. I think they would attract players in the right situations. But how many times have we gone down that path in Mark Cuban's history where it's like oh we didn't get this guy or that guy Dwight Howard and like we have to settle for Chandler Parsons, all that. Like you actually have to do the. Unless you're the la's or the New Yorks or whatever, you do have to work, do that work on the fringes. And I look at the roster it's like yeah they've got some stuff but if anything they need like those raw like fill in the gap sort of players that are ultimately when Cooper's in year four or five are going to be his Dorian Finney Smith that is going to be his running mate and so hopefully. But so I can get them back to doing the like the, the the easy stuff or like the lower level stuff first.
- [102:00]
B
Yeah.
- [102:00]
A
And then kind of level up a full from there.
- [102:02]
B
Well especially that combination right. Of like if you're going to potentially have an executive who can make you a player in the star market and also an executive who's been very successful with second round picks and undrafted guys. That seems like what you want if you're a franchise that after this year does not have control of your next four first round picks. Like the Mavs need to have alternative ways to be good and we're going to see if Messiah can turn them up.
- [102:26]
A
All right, that's the episode long one but hopefully you know you settling into that second round. You have a lot of time. You don't want to listen to the broadcasters, listen to us talk about jammies and live streams for whatever reason.
- [102:38]
B
Very normal stuff.
- [102:40]
A
All right, thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back Wednesday night for some hot playoff action. We'll talk to you then. 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem call 1-1-800- gambler or 1-800- My Reset, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York, Louisiana, call 1-807867. Your next chapter in healthcare starts at
- [103:31]
C
Carrington College's School of Nursing in Portland. Join us for our open house on Tuesday, January 13th from 4 to 7pm
- [103:39]
A
you'll tour our campus, see live demos,
- [103:42]
B
meet instructors and learn about our Associate
- [103:44]
A
Degree in Nursing program that prepares you
- [103:46]
B
to become a registered nurse. Take the first step toward your nursing career.
- [103:50]
C
Save your spot now@carrington.edu events.
- [103:54]
B
For information on program outcomes, visit carrington.edu sci. Some follow the Noise Bloomberg follows the money. Because behind every headline is a bottom line. Whether it's the funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings, there's a money
- [104:14]
C
side to every story. And when you see the money money
- [104:17]
B
side, you understand what others miss. Get the money side of the story.
- [104:22]
A
Subscribe now@bloomberg.com.