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The Ringer NBA Show
Luka Debuts for the Lakers! Plus, Checking in on Other Trade Deadline Acquisitions. | Real Ones
02:10:11
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- [00:01]
Austin Rivers
What's up everybody? It's Austin Rivers here and we are.
- [00:03]
Pasha Hagigi
Back for another season of off guard. Me and my guy Pasha Hagigi are hitting your podcast feeds every Monday and Thursday talking everything hoops. Austin is bringing that 11 year NBA veteran perspective and of course keeping you guys entertained throughout the season. Make sure you tap into off guard with Austin Rivers on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to follow everything we've got going on social media, the off guard podcast, Ringer NBA and of course, check us out on Ringer NBA's YouTube channel. We're getting better. Have you ever spotted McDonald's hot crispy fries right as they're being scooped into the carton? And time just stands still.
- [00:52]
Austin Rivers
Foreign what's poppin? Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell there, Howard Beck in the cut, Cliff on the boards, slow motion with the poster, just trying to get to the ocean. We're here to talk about.
- [01:18]
Pasha Hagigi
No. Okay.
- [01:19]
Austin Rivers
I just want to let that breathe. I was really proud of that. I was really proud of that. Okay, that was for effect anyway. That was for effect. See if it was if it hit or not. Anyways, we're here to talk about the ramifications of trade deadline, talk about the first few games for the big time acquisitions of teams. So let's just get right to it, man. Let's talk about the Los Angeles Lakers, which we tend to talk about a lot. Um, Luka Doncic had his debut last night in Los Angeles. Played really well. Really well. The Lakers beat the breaks off of the Jazz. Let's start with Beck. What were your first impressions of Luka Doncic in the Lakers uniform?
- [02:01]
Howard Beck
He was fine. I mean, look, the dude hasn't played in over a month or whatever. Like, it wasn't a Luka like performance. So. And they're playing against like the Washington Generals, so it's a little hard to judge there too. You know what for? You know what? You know what hit me last night? Watching Luka make his debut against the Jazz and thinking like the Jazz are just like stand ins here. They're basically just like props for the Lakers to celebrate the next great era of Lakerdom. Having brought in Luka to play with LeBron. And I thought, man, one of the last, like, I haven't been to that many games in LA in the last 10 years. But like Kobe's final game, the 60, 61 points or whatever was also against the Jazz where the Jazz were just an afterthought. They were just pylons, like standing out There they were just, you know, they were there for decoration. They're the Washington Generals. What can I say? Much different Jazz team in 2016 than the one last night. But that struck me. Luca looked good, but not like Luca yet. So I think we need to give him time to get back into. Into shape. I don't mean that pejoratively and I don't mean that as a slate, and I don't mean that to reference that the Mavericks reasons for trading him, but he's been out for a while. He's been injured, so Luke is going to need some time. The Lakers going to need some time to adjust to him, but like them immediately. Luka and LeBron just finding Jackson Hayes at the rim repeatedly for lob dunks is a nice sign for a team that doesn't have any bigs and is going to need to get some production and something at the rim. So good debut with qualifiers and, you know, let's. Let's see how it goes from here. I'm not going to get carried away.
- [03:39]
Pasha Hagigi
Yeah, I was.
- [03:40]
Austin Rivers
I was fine of the debut.
- [03:43]
Pasha Hagigi
It was okay. That's. That's not a finished product for. For Luca like that. I mean, he was fine. The Lakers were fine. I was more excited that he came back and played the 24 minutes or whatever it was without getting injured or having any kind of, you know, like, when you come back off of something like that and you're. You're kind of out of shape, like, you know, you. You kind of worry about re. Injuring it. And he didn't do that. And so I'm fine with it. But. But, you know, I'm with. I'm with. With Howard. Like, I mean, clearly that's not the best version of Luca we've ever seen, but he's. He looked fine.
- [04:19]
Austin Rivers
I was. It made me, like, cautiously optimistic about what the Lakers can be. And we'll talk about this later in the podcast because we're. Howard. You're not going to believe this. Rasha. Howard suggested we do predictions this episode, so we're going to do that later.
- [04:34]
Howard Beck
Predictions, just kind of impressions, like hunches?
- [04:38]
Austin Rivers
No, no, no, no. We'll see how he tries to flip it later in the podcast when I bring it up again. Roger, I was flabbergasted yesterday on the last show. It was crazy. But anyway, I thought he was really good based on the circumstances. He was out of shape. It was crazy to kind of see him play within a flow of an offense that, like, didn't. Wasn't in his orbit right like, they were getting him off screens and stuff. Like they were. They were getting him to move around, and he seemed to buy in. He was sucking a lot of wind, but it was. But I do like the fact that they could stagger him with LeBron. It's going to be two different styles throughout the season. And I mean, we can. We're going to make fun of the Lakers for botching the Mark Williams trade fiasco or whatever. Or whatever. The bot. They didn't botch it, but somebody botched it. We're going to make fun of that in a minute. But this could be a really fun, small lineup team. Like, they got a lot of capable defenders and they could do some funky things. Raja. Like, I do. I. I kind of like what I see out of the Lakers here with this, with this acquisition, right? Like, because on one hand, they ain't got no center, but they have Luka and LeBron and a whole bunch of defenders. I think I like what I see. And they're fifth in the, in the, in the Western Conference, so at any.
- [05:52]
Pasha Hagigi
Given time, two thirds of your lineup aren't defenders. But we're going to be a good defensive team.
- [05:59]
Austin Rivers
I just want to make sure they're nice, they're cool. No, but I'm just saying.
- [06:03]
Pasha Hagigi
I mean, they have some pieces that defend, but, like, at any. They have some pieces that defend 85% of the time. 2. 2/3 of your team, 40% of it are going to be defensive liabilities. That's going to be hard to buy is all I'm saying.
- [06:17]
Austin Rivers
Here's the thing. Here's the thing. I was listening, listening. This is what I was listening to. I was listening to the propaganda that, that J.J. redick told. I think it was Sedano who was doing the, the. The sideline. And J.J. redick said the propaganda of, like, they asked him a question about Luka, like, hey, man, what have you thought about how he's grown? And J.J. redick did the great coach thing, which is, yo, he's been. He's grown so much since I played with him. He's been such a great defender and grow. He has great potential as a defender. I know they said it a lot, but I was like, oh, yeah. I mean, I seen him play in stretches last year in the playoffs and, like, buy in through stretches, right? Maybe once or twice throughout the playoffs last year, I think do it if it gets in shape. And I, I just. I don't know. I just talked myself into them being good, even though they played the Washington Generals. I apologize I did. No, go ahead, Howard.
- [07:06]
Howard Beck
I was just going to say they're 16th in defensive rating, so, like, they're middle of the pack. They're not terrible, but they're not great. They have been better the last 15 games. They're, like, fourth in defensive rating. And, like, they really had been playing well prior to swapping Anthony Davis for Luca. But Anthony Davis was part of that, too.
- [07:23]
Austin Rivers
Yeah.
- [07:23]
Howard Beck
Before he got hurt.
- [07:24]
Pasha Hagigi
He's one of the best defenders in the league.
- [07:26]
Howard Beck
I'm with. I'm with Raja here. I'm skeptical of the Lakers being a good degree.
- [07:31]
Austin Rivers
Okay, maybe I got really too excited. I apologize to all the audio, all the people listening, that I wasted their time, but I just got really excited for what I saw. Even though they were playing against the Washington Generals and had the difficulty level on pro. I apologize. My bad, guys. It was just fun to watch. It was a great night of basketball last night for the Lakers. I apologize.
- [07:50]
Pasha Hagigi
Yeah. If you're. If you're. Look, if you're a Laker, if you're a Lakers fan, right?
- [07:53]
Raja Bell
Like.
- [07:53]
Pasha Hagigi
No, no. But all jokes aside, like, there. There are things to be excited about, right? Like. Like we've come on and said. Where. I've come on and said that eventually it is going to devolve into, like, Luca, LeBron, Austin, Reeves, to some degree. Ball in their hand. Make. Make something happen, like, get us. Get us started. Create a rotation defensively. Let the ball start moving. How people. How people figure out their way around being the complimentary piece of that in a way that they haven't ordinarily in their career is going to be a big question. But if you told me that, like, you know, we'll run offense, and like most games, you're running offense, I don't know, 65% of the time, and then 35% of the time, we want to live in this ISO. You know, create a mismatch world. And I have Luca and LeBron. I'm fucking. I'm pretty excited. Pretty excited about that. Not to mention, you know, not just from. From the. From the purely, you know, pure. Put it in the bucket. But, like, those two are two of the most gifted passers and, you know, orchestrators of the chess pieces and being able to deliver the ball where. Where their teammates need it when they. When they want to, of anybody in the NBA. So there. There are reasons to be excited. I just don't, you know, I. I don't. I don't know that defense. Defense is one of them necessarily for me, and I understand where you were at.
- [09:21]
Austin Rivers
I made a mistake, guys. I apologize. Okay, that was Lolo's bat. Lolo got caught up in the moment, but. Shut up in the moment. I apologize, but, like, I got a little lag.
- [09:32]
Pasha Hagigi
So sorry, dudes, but, like, if you were going to tell me, right, Like, I don't remember what pot it was, but you know, for a while when. When Luca was buying in and playing a level of defense that was better than his normal brand in Dallas, like, they were pretty good defensively, like when. When he. When he locks in and does that. So if. If, like, you know, the. The one part that I never touched on was how good of a. Of a situation it could be for Luka to. To. To take the next step into his career with LeBron as his guide to that. If he, if he, if he tightens up some of those areas, like, we already know what he is, like, he could be. They. Maybe. Who knows?
- [10:13]
Austin Rivers
Well, Beck, on that. On that note, what do you think the LeBron influences is going to be on Luca right now? Because it does feel like this is. It's a. It's a balancing act, right? Like, LeBron is also falling in line with the whole plan, it seems like, thus far, but also still is the spiritual leader of this team and he's. I feel like through a week or so, he's playing both roles well. How do you think his influence is going to have an effect on Luka and where he is right now as he joins this team and gets into the fold?
- [10:48]
Howard Beck
I mean, obviously great sign that LeBron I, I assume chosen to be the next to last introduced and had Luka be the last introduced last night. Like, that is the honor that goes to the best player on team, right? So Luca being introduced last was the right thing like that. That's an easy one. It's not like LeBron's making some major sacrifice there, but symbolically and as a gesture, I like that LeBron's clearly embraced him from the moment the trade happened, despite the fact that Anthony Davis, his. His friend and clutch colleague, got sent out in the deal like LeBron has to. He's been around a long time. He understands the business as well as the basketball of this league. And I think that LeBron is seeing this clearly, which is one, in the short term, this might actually help me, you know, make a deep playoff run that we weren't going to make otherwise if we can eventually plug up the center spot. And two, you know, LeBron knows, like, whatever he's going to do, it's a Year two, maybe more. Like, I like he has to see that the Lakers are planning for the future beyond him. But in the meantime, his impact can be form this partnership with Luka, mentor him as well as I can. And that's, I think, to the crux of your question, Logan. Like, I'm really curious about this, right? Like, it's not controversial to say that Luka had bad work habits or, or was out of shape at times. It is not controversial at all because there is loads and loads of data to support that and anecdotal evidence to support that and it goes back years. There was a piece this morning on Substack by Jerry Engelman, who used to work with the Mavericks, where he was, you know, noting some of his observations from the time that he was working with, with the organization as an analytics guy. Like the concerns about Luca's conditioning and his seriousness about his body or lack thereof are legit. LeBron is the opposite end of the spectrum. He is, you know, we know, like when he spends a million a year, 2 million a year, whatever it is, on his body, will that rub off on Luca directly, indirectly? How direct can LeBron be about that? Is Luca open to that kind of like peer to peer coaching? He clearly wasn't listening enough to the Mavericks. If he were he. If he had, he'd still be there. But, you know, LeBron's a whole different level of influence. LeBron's a guy that Luca was, you know, looking up to as, you know, as an icon and, you know, you know, kind of his basketball hero from the time that he was, you know, like a pre teen. So it's going to land different coming from LeBron. And I, I have to think that Luke is serious enough about his game and his career that he'll be open to everything LeBron tells him in, in the months and maybe years to come here.
- [13:46]
Pasha Hagigi
No, it's not going to hurt like LeBron. If, if you want. Let me ask you a question before I launch into this. Why is the Luca fan, like, why does the Luca fan. Howard, like you. You talked about your experience with them. Like, why. Why are they so. I don't know, man. Why are they. Why do they go into attack mode when you just point out those obvious things, though? Like, like, they're not fair. Point out like, you don't even.
- [14:15]
Howard Beck
Like the. Yeah, the Lucas stands today are what, like Kobe stands were at their peak where at a certain point he could do no wrong. Kobe and Luka could do no wrong. And, and pointing out things that the entire Rest of the world, of the whole league sees if you say it as a pundit or if you report it, that other people around the league might be saying it. Yeah, the attack dogs just come out, Raj. There's a whole deeper, like, psychological study do here. I think it's just part of modern fandom and maybe social media fandom, which is different than, like, normal every day talking to a guy at the bar or at the arena or whatever. Fandom. I don't quite understand it myself, but yeah, there's a. There's a whole new level of like, kind of psychodrama that goes with today's fans who are. They treat their favorite player as infallible, as demigods who cannot be criticized and who have no faults. And how dare you say anything about them? It's really weird and it's really unsettling, but I can't really.
- [15:18]
Austin Rivers
It really is.
- [15:19]
Pasha Hagigi
It. It gets really nasty and aggressive very quickly. Like, it's. It's really weird. But to the point. To the point you guys were making, man, like, if you. If you. If you are serious about your craft, and I know Luca to. To be serious about his craft now, there. There are levels to even that, right? Like when you're talking about your. Your craft as an incredible player and then taking that. That next step into your craft as an incredible champion. You know, like, there's steps that even greats take in regards to their craft. But if he's serious about it, there's no better person for what he may need at this point than LeBron to model your. Your day to day after. Like, and even if you were to get to, I don't know, 50%, let's say, of what LeBron is in terms to. I mean, in terms of, like, you know, preparation, you know, taking care of. Of your. Your. Your. Your vessel and your instrument, you know, making sure that it's being fueled. Even if you took 50% of that, you would be a much better pro. Any of us would be, not just Luca. So, you know, if. If that's one of those situations where, honestly, like, for.
- [16:35]
Austin Rivers
For.
- [16:35]
Pasha Hagigi
For him, not. Not as a. Not as a. Not as a.
- [16:38]
Austin Rivers
A.
- [16:39]
Pasha Hagigi
A skilled player, but as some of the other things that come along with being for. For you to, you know, take that next step in your career, no better place if you. If you want to. If you want to model after someone than being right next to LeBron.
- [16:56]
Howard Beck
You.
- [16:57]
Austin Rivers
Know, it can't hurt. But also, the other thing is, and I want to get Beck's perspective on this, the Lakers have a bit of a balancing act, right, that they need to. Need to have with both of these personalities now. I think it's great that LeBron has acquiesced and said, oh, this is probably seen the writing on the walls, like, oh, I guess this is Lucas team. To the point. Also, where I was reading this David Miniman story that was really good. Like, Luca pushed to get Mark Williams. The push for the Mark Williams trade. When they. They asked for who do you want to play with, he said, Mark Williams. They went and go, got the win and got him. Now it fell through, but that shows the early signs that this is going to be Lucas organization, if it isn't already. But what's the balancing act? Because it's still LeBron James Beck. Like, he's not gonna. You can't just push him to the wayside altogether, right. Like, you still gotta appease him in some ways. How do they do that?
- [17:52]
Howard Beck
By including him in those conversations. Like, you know, McManaman story. Did. Yeah. Did note that Luca was one who pushed for Mark Williams specifically or maybe suggested. I can't remember the exact framing of it. Did. Did they also seek LeBron's input on that? That's not clear. When the next round of personnel decisions comes about around draft time or between draft and free agency, as they're trying to retool, like, they're going to once again be out in the market to find a center. Right. Like, that's probably, you know, number one priority. When we get to the off season for the Lakers, are they going to seek both of their opinions? Are Luke and LeBron gonna spend time whether it's now or in the off season, like, kind of like having these meetings of the mind. So, like, they can say, oh, you know, you know, who would be really great with us? This guy. And then maybe they're both going to them. Like, you know, I think LeBron's been there long enough that his. His relationships with Polinka, with Jeanie Buss, with others in the organization, those are already established. There's been tensions at times, to be clear. Like, let's not pretend like everything changes because Luka got there. Like, there have been. It's been a roller coaster for LeBron and the Lakers. I think, in terms of their relationships.
- [19:08]
Austin Rivers
Over the course, I'll add LeBron clutch and the Lakers.
- [19:11]
Howard Beck
Yes, fair. There have been times that things were very strained and a lot of, like, you know, when things were going bad with the Westbrook deal, a lot of, like the Lakers saying, oh, it's not our fault. LeBron wanted this. LeBron and AD pushed for this. You know, so there have been tensions. I think it was better in the last year or so, it seemed like things had kind of gotten to a really good place between LeBron and the organization. But Luka introduces a new element there, and I do think they have to navigate it. I do think they have to navigate it carefully. I do think the smart thing to do is to make sure that however much you're consulting with Luka, you're still consulting with LeBron, partially just out of respect and. And longevity and all that other stuff. But he won your. You know, he won a championship for your organization. He's, you know, one of the smartest players, as JJ Redick knows well, because they did a podcast together for. For, you know, several weeks, breaking down the game. Like, LeBron's super smart about the game. Now, players aren't always, by the way, the best scouts. They're not always the best judges of who fits, which is why you have to tread lightly when they're saying, go get me this guy or that guy in the draft or free agency or trade. But, yeah, they should all be involved. Like, don't. Don't make LeBron feel like. Like you've already, like, shoved him, you know, one foot out the door on the way to retirement. I don't think that would go well in the short term.
- [20:38]
Austin Rivers
Let's look at this, because I'm going to transition to the Dallas point of view on this, because we're going to talk about Anthony Davis and his start, because. Woof. But before I get to that, there was a lot of. I feel like there is, at least from the MAV standpoint, there are the people that made the deal. The new Mavs. Let's call them the new Mavs, right. That made the deal to have Luka traded to the Lakers. And then there's the old Mavs contingency, the Mark Cubans of the world, the Dirk Nowitzkis of the world, who are sitting next to Luka Dodge's dad during Luca's first game. Right. What do you guys think about this theater that's going on right here? I'll start with Raj. What do you think about what's all of this stuff that's going on? Because there seems to be a disconnect here from. And understandably so, from fractions of the Mavericks. Dynasty, you would call it. I don't know what we call it. Dynasty, but the fractures in the castle.
- [21:46]
Pasha Hagigi
Well, you know, anytime there's a regime change, you know, like, there's. There's potential for the new regime to come in and start moving in a way that the old one doesn't agree with. And I mean, I don't know how I feel about it. I'm just watching it play out in real time. Like, clearly, you know, the ones that are. That are most heavily invested in Luka and having him there and drafting him and developing him and. And the person, the player, the family, like, this isn't a move that they would have made under any circumstances. And, you know, I think they've. They've said that in so many words. The new regime clearly saw it differently. And for whatever reason, because I've seen the conspiracy theories out there about. About why they would not want him to be there. Like, I've read all of that, but let's just say it's for argument's sake, purely about. About conditioning and leadership and shape and all of that. And again, I want to. I want to make sure that the Luka fan understands. As we were potting a few days ago, like, I wasn't weighing in on whether or not I would have traded Luca for the reasons that I was. Those are the reasons that they clearly traded him. Like, they're. That's what the people in the building are saying. And my point was, like, how bad did it have to be in their eyes for them to get to that point? And. And, you know, like, that's just. It's just a fascinating, like, you know, kind of thing to watch the. The marks Cubans of the world and listen, like, let's be real, Mark and those dudes and Dirk, that was a different NBA we played in. Like, there was. It was a relationship business. It was, you know, we did drink locker rooms. I mean, beers in locker rooms after playoff games. I'd be in a hot tub with Steve Nash. We'd be knocking down multiple beers, like, before we went to the shower.
- [23:42]
Austin Rivers
Not for nothing, Roger, some teams still do drink beers in the locker room after game.
- [23:47]
Pasha Hagigi
Yeah, so. So, like, so you're trying to bridge, like, the old NBA versus the new, you know, how we're going to do stuff and take care of our body, and there's just differences of opinions there, and it's. It's fascinating to watch. I don't know that I have a real opinion on it. It's just interesting to see that the two parties within one organization and how they're kind of viewing, you know, the team, Luca and the future through the different lenses.
- [24:12]
Austin Rivers
Beck, I, like I said this last Week. No matter what the Mavericks have done trade wise to help their team or whatever, they have clearly lost the PR battle and they have clearly lost the fan base with this move. Right. Even if they win, I don't think it will be as satisfactory as winning with Luka. Right. Like, this was very much a visceral reaction in response to this move. Do you feel like the Mavericks just kind of overplayed their hand? Like maybe on paper, yeah, we get Anthony Davis and we'll talk about the fit and what happened to Anthony Davis in a second. But, like, did they really overlook what, what they were not supposed to overlook in trading this, this, this pillar of. Not only the city, the, the team, but the city itself.
- [25:05]
Howard Beck
Yeah. Not to belabor how big of a disaster the deal is. We've, we've discussed this at length. There's no dispute about this across the league. There, there's no, like, you know, passionate, justifiable minority view here of like, well, actually they were smart to do this because, no, it doesn't exist.
- [25:21]
Austin Rivers
I will, I will note though. I will note though, Becky Cliff said it was a good deal as soon as it happened. As soon as it went down, Cliff was the first one in the chat to say it's a good deal for the basket.
- [25:29]
Howard Beck
Cliff, under the bus.
- [25:30]
Austin Rivers
Come on, Cliff. Under the bus.
- [25:32]
Pasha Hagigi
Cliff, you coming in or what? Cliff, open the window.
- [25:35]
Cliff
My boy, man. All right, all right, all right, all right. Look, look, look, look, look. I was on vacation. I had a couple. I was in doctor. I had a couple of drinks in me. The thing popped up on my feet and I'm like, wait. Luca to. Luca to the la. I couldn't believe. I thought it was a hoax, right? And then immediately I thought to myself, you know what? I can see Anthony Davis doing something with the Mavericks. Mavs want to trade right away. In the short, in the short. But in the long term, you know what I mean? You get the 25 year old superstar. I knew that. I came to my senses a couple hours later. That's all. That was it.
- [26:08]
Austin Rivers
That wasn't what was said in the chat though. It was just like, good move for the baths.
- [26:13]
Cliff
I didn't. Yo, I couldn't go into detail because I was out. I was in the mix. I was.
- [26:17]
Austin Rivers
Was a doctor out here partying. It was like, good move for the Mavs.
- [26:22]
Cliff
My phone was going. My phone was going off. I saw what y'all said. I said, good move for the Mavs. And then I went back to doing my thing. That was all, hey, Eagles won The.
- [26:30]
Austin Rivers
Super bowl after we got the Eagles.
- [26:32]
Pasha Hagigi
Won the Super Bowl.
- [26:32]
Austin Rivers
There we go. Yeah.
- [26:34]
Cliff
Fly, Eagles, fly. Go, birds. You already know two and seven years and we running it back next year.
- [26:39]
Austin Rivers
Good.
- [26:39]
Pasha Hagigi
Ooh, Ooh.
- [26:40]
Austin Rivers
All right. Okay, okay, okay. Anyway, so did.
- [26:43]
Howard Beck
So go ahead. There's the. There's the basketball part, but then, yes, there's also the fan part. Right? Like, you cannot ever do anything in this league without considering the fact that the entire economy of this league is built on the passion and loyalty and emotions of the fans. And so not only did you trade a guy who's still not even yet at his prime, who's one of the best three players on earth, for a package that everybody agrees universally across the NBA was not sufficient. But on top of it, yeah, you've alienated your fans because they have an emotional attachment to Luka. Even if the fans. Even if every single one of them were to admit, you know what? He hasn't been in the greatest of shape. He hasn't been the best teammate, but he's our guy. He's our guy. We've had this guy since day one. We made this amazing draft day trade to get this guy. When other teams passed on him, he took us to the finals. Like, we don't. We're riding with him, you know, no matter what. Like, because that. That's the thing, right?
- [27:37]
Pasha Hagigi
Like Howard.
- [27:40]
Howard Beck
What's that?
- [27:42]
Pasha Hagigi
Tread lightly.
- [27:43]
Austin Rivers
We're just trying to have your back. We're just preemptively just trying to have your back, bro.
- [27:46]
Pasha Hagigi
Tread lightly, sir.
- [27:48]
Howard Beck
What am I. I'm just saying.
- [27:51]
Pasha Hagigi
No, my bad. Joke. Poor attempt at a joke. I was saying you're getting dangerously close to the. To any. Like, to the Luca line. So, like, make sure you stay on our side of it.
- [28:00]
Howard Beck
No, I got you. I got you. No. So, like. Well, I did say if Luca fans could actually see where his faults were, but every. Every franchise star, right? Listen, you played with a guy, certainly had his faults, but he got the Sixers to a finals and. And made the Sixers relevant and competitive for a long time. Joel Embiidz certainly got his faults. Kobe and Shaq had their faults when I covered them. You understand that you're buying into a complete package that is going to have some downside at times, and at times, a fan. Fans are going to be frustrated with their franchise star, too, but he's your guy. So it's like, that's. We'll live with that, and we'll tell all the. We'll tell the Howard Pecks of the world. That he's wrong about Luca and to shut the bleep up about his shape and his conditioning and his whatever. But amongst ourselves, we'll talk about. Because that's the way this goes, right? It's like family. You can criticize him. Nobody else on the outside can. But the Mavericks as an organization did not respect that. They didn't understand that in the moment. And you could tell that even in the messaging since then, they just have not grasped the emotional toll. Now they have grasped it on some level because they've seen the backlash, they've seen the protests, they've seen the mock funeral processions. And last night, they tossed multiple fans for either signs or verbally saying, fire Nico. So which, by the way, terrible way to handle this. Like, I know it's uncomfortable. I know it's not great. I know Nico Harrison and. And the owner, Patrick Dumont, both skipped the first game back after the trade, but they were there last night. Let your fans vent. Allow them this. It's legitimate, and that's part of their fandom, too. If you want them there spending their hard earned money cheering for your team, buying your jerseys, buying your overpriced beers, then give them the latitude to also be pissed off and scream and chant, sell the team or fire the GM or whatever. Like, deal with it. This is a move you made. You're going to stand by it, great. But you have to deal with the downside of it, too. And running from that isn't helping anybody. And it's not respecting your fans because their emotions and their hurt is. Is real. And I'll just note one more thing. So Patrick Dumont, who's. Who's now the majority owner with the Adelson family, gives an interview to the Dallas Morning News on Sunday in which he's talking about why they made the deal and character and all these things. And he says, quote, if you look at the greats in the league, the people you and I grew up with, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, they worked really, really hard every day with a singular focus to win. And if you don't have that, it doesn't work. And if you don't have that. Hold on, hold on. If you don't have that, you shouldn't be part of the Dallas Mavericks. That's the full quote from Patrick Dumont, which one cited Shaq, who did not.
- [30:44]
Austin Rivers
Thank you.
- [30:45]
Howard Beck
Work all that hard, as everybody around that the league knew at the time.
- [30:50]
Austin Rivers
And also, Shaq told you himself on record multiple times that he.
- [30:55]
Howard Beck
Shaq, got toe surgery once right on the eve of training camp and then said, I'm going to heal on company time. I'm not doing it on my time. Like, like, this is, this is the whole crux of Shaq and Kobe's fallout. Like, among other things. But a huge piece of it was the disconnect between them in terms of their work habits. So citing Shaq was dumb. But also, who's missing from this sentence of, of icons and role models and people who were looking up to and saying are the way to do this, who are setting the tone. Oh, I don't know, the guy whose statue is outside your freaking arena. The guy who was in LA last night sitting next to Luca's dad, cheering for Luca. So if you don't name Dirk, that's just, just a massive unforced error there. Just a bad gaffe by, by the new owner. So like on every level, that, and again, ejecting fans for, for saying things and having signs that, that were, you know, indicating they're pissed off about the trade. Like they're, they're just blowing this on every level.
- [31:52]
Austin Rivers
I, it's just a master class and just terrible. I don't know. It's just a master class and terrible fallout management. And then we haven't even talked about the autocorre stuff. Raja Anthony Davis out multiple weeks.
- [32:08]
Pasha Hagigi
I want to ask a question, I want to ask a question though, because I'm, I am fascinated by this. And again, I, I want to say that I, that I agree with every reason you guys have said I did last time. Why, why it's a bad trade. Like, I agree with all of that. Do you think there was a world where done in a more open format, testing the waters of what we could get, getting more of a return for it? This would be any different. Or was this just a world where you weren't going to be able to part with Luca if you wanted to. Not, not Raja, not Howard, not not, not Logan, but like if the Mavs. Because this is all I was saying was like, if, if knowing all of that you still felt like you had to do that. My question was how bad has it been there? And I'll stand by that. Like, I, I, I don't think you do that. Like waking up one morning saying, gonna move him. Like, this is, this is something that, that at least suggests to me has been brewing and it's, and it, and the, and the situation is not great there. So my question to you all is, is there a world where they could have gotten anything else much more substantial return for it. Where the mat, where the Mav and the Luca fan would be like, okay, we get it. Or where was this destined to be? Because that's a, that's, that's an incredible situation. Like I can never move that piece.
- [33:26]
Austin Rivers
I, I, I don't think that, I think the relationship between Luca and Dallas, if you traded it for anyone, it would have elicited a similar reaction. Well, that's what I think. So he has that relationship with, with Dallas in the way that Dirk does. Right. He was past the torch from Dirk to be the next guy and be there for the rest of his career. And like, you just don't. Also from another standpoint, I think Bomani Jones brought this up on his podcast, which is a city like Dallas where the Mavs are probably what the third or fourth team at best, right. Like they're not the biggest show in town. You get a guy like a Dirk or a Luca, that gets people in the stands and that gets people to care about your team and like that. It's hard to make an inroad in that type of city. So when you push a guy out that the city rallies around you from all parts. I know all different types of mavericks, fans, black, white, Hispanic, you name it. They all love Luca. All of them.
- [34:28]
Pasha Hagigi
No doubt, no doubt.
- [34:29]
Austin Rivers
I'm so now to do that. I think so to answer your question for me, I think if you traded it for anybody, there would have been some sort of uproar.
- [34:39]
Pasha Hagigi
I agree with that. I agree with that.
- [34:42]
Howard Beck
Yeah, there's a, you know, Roger, your point is valid. There's, there's a part of this where no matter what, you, you could have gotten the best return in history. And the story I wrote last week on the ringer.com I actually had another GM saying basically, if they had done this right, they would have gotten the best haul in trade, NBA trade, history. Even in that scenario, whatever you can, you know, let your imagine run wild, whatever, however many picks, players, stars, whatever you would have gotten in return, it still would have stung. Mavs fans still would have been pissed that Luca is no longer a maverick, and justifiably so. But if trading him were justified based on the merits, based on their misgivings or concerns about him, fine. But yeah, you're going to deal with some fallout regardless. The way to minimize that fallout, or at least offset it, is to have made a better trade and they didn't. And so it makes it exacerbates it.
- [35:38]
Austin Rivers
So throw some good old fashioned leaks out there to the Press beck or throw some good old fashioned leaks out to the press. You know, it just, it hedge your bet. You know how they do.
- [35:48]
Howard Beck
Here's the. Here's the.
- [35:49]
Austin Rivers
I know how they do respect for.
- [35:51]
Howard Beck
The Mavericks fans who were there at the game on, what was it, Saturday when AD made his debut and like they were all out for him, right? Like they're, they're obviously pissed about Luca, but man, they were absolutely supporting Anthony Davis. He was playing his ass off. He had an incredible first half and, and then you, they, they're still cheer, they're still cheering passionately for their team. And then Anthony Davis went down on a non contact injury and now is out for weeks. Which like Anthony Davis in a nutshell. Anthony Davis in a nutshell, dominant when he's healthy, not healthy often enough. And everybody in the league could have told you that this was what you were possibly buying into. And already the consequences of this trade are evident. So look, they could still, you know, whether it's this season or next or however long Anthony Davis has left in his career, maybe Nico Harrison gets to have the last laugh. Maybe they get vindicated at some point. I'm very skeptical of that in the near term. This is exactly the nightmare that you could have foreseen, which is you traded 25, 26 year old Luca for a 32 year old Anthony Davis.
- [36:58]
Austin Rivers
And in his first game he got Roger smirking. Roger smirking.
- [37:02]
Pasha Hagigi
Listen. Well, I just want to.
- [37:03]
Austin Rivers
Roger smirk alert.
- [37:05]
Pasha Hagigi
Like I want to be clear for anyone listening. Like as we've kind of navigated the, the trade and I've had like tried to be really, I've tried to see it through, you know, both lenses and both people's perspectives. If you've listened to this show for any extended period of time, you know where I stand on Anthony Davis. I've made that really clear. So like I just was sitting, watching that.
- [37:32]
Austin Rivers
Before it was in style, Rob. Before it was a style.
- [37:34]
Pasha Hagigi
Oh, before it was in style. And like I thought, oh my God, watching, watching him just. I'm here, I'm here. And that thing was electric and it was rocking and, and the Maz fans were all in and where Nico.
- [37:49]
Austin Rivers
And wait, Raza, Raza. Real quick, did you see, did you see the tweet that came out with the I'm here, the I'm here video and it said Anthony Davis introducing himself to the Mavs medical staff?
- [38:01]
Pasha Hagigi
No, I didn't see that. I didn't see that. But man, listen bro, when he. I was just trying to like put myself In. In. Like, I was trying to put myself in the seats with ownership and. And. And brass when. When the game started and you're watching it and all. All the realm of possibilities are still on the table as far as how this could play out. And boom, here he goes. And you're like, fuck, yes, they're fucking, right? And like, there we go. And you're riding that wave of emotion. And Denny Anthony Davis is you. And how the. How the wind had to be sucked out of.
- [38:41]
Austin Rivers
Right? You know how much I had to hear from Laker fans You know how much I had to hear from Laker fans over the last year? Jo. Me. Jeremy, I'm talking to you, Jeremy. How many. How many times I hear, well, he was actually healthy last year, guys. He's actually been taking another chin. He's been playing. You know, he's actually. You know, he's turned a quarter.
- [39:00]
Howard Beck
He has. He has gotten to the 70 game mark, I think twice in his entire career. Twice. There's a couple of truncated seasons in there, but still, there wasn't nobody in.
- [39:11]
Austin Rivers
Nico Harrison's orbit to be like, hey, I mean, yeah, all the things you said is cool, but, like, have you seen his injury history?
- [39:18]
Howard Beck
This wasn't a mystery.
- [39:19]
Pasha Hagigi
Yeah, you'd be like, yo, okay, Nico's my dude. I'll fire Nico. A text every now and again, too. I wish I had known Nico. I'd have done that for you. I'd have been like, that one. You short Nico.
- [39:29]
Austin Rivers
Hey, that's a.
- [39:31]
Pasha Hagigi
That one.
- [39:32]
Austin Rivers
That's why you need a Roger Bell on your team. That's why you need a Roger Bell on your team.
- [39:36]
Howard Beck
Did you hear Mark Cuban clowning the trade, too, by the way.
- [39:39]
Austin Rivers
You have? Yeah, I did. Mark Cleveland was calling the trade, bro. Everybody who, like, is a Mavericks legend, because, like I said, these some new Mavs. These ain't. These ain't the Mavs that was locked in, right? The new. The old maps is like, this is so dumb. This is so stupid. Oh, my goodness. Oh, well, let's talk about some positivity, okay? Let's just. Let's. Let's talk. Let's. Let's.
- [40:02]
Pasha Hagigi
Jimmy Butler.
- [40:03]
Austin Rivers
Positive. Jimmy Butler. Jimmy Butler. Look, hey, hey.
- [40:08]
Howard Beck
Jimmy Butlers are now our positive. How about that?
- [40:12]
Austin Rivers
Howard? Howard. I just want to give flowers to Howard Beck because he is just a beacon of optimism because he always takes the high road. Like, hey, that's gonna be great. So far, so good. The Warriors, 2, 10 with Jimmy B, right?
- [40:27]
Logan Murdoch
Who?
- [40:27]
Austin Rivers
They went into Chicago. Where's Daryl? 24 came back and won last night without Giannis. We're not going to talk about that part of it, but they played against the Bucks, had control the whole game, played with some passion, went small.
- [40:42]
Pasha Hagigi
That don't count.
- [40:45]
Austin Rivers
Raja, Raja, Raja, just relax, relax.
- [40:48]
Pasha Hagigi
We go, listen, I'm all, I'm geeked up with you, but that we ain't going to count last we were having.
- [40:57]
Austin Rivers
Roger trying to set it up. I'm trying to set it up for the, for the Bay people that are listening to this. The Warrior fans are besides themselves. They're so excited right now. It's crazy. 2, 0. What do we feel? We already know what Roger feels right quick. He's going to go on his rant in a second. Beck. First two games, Jimmy Butler, Golden State Warrior.
- [41:19]
Howard Beck
Per usual, I'm not going to overreact, but I think you're seeing exactly what the warriors hoped for in this scenario. Jimmy Butler runs the offense when Steph is off the court. And the offense doesn't just like fall off a fucking cliff every time. Steph needs a breather because Jimmy's out there able to run the offense and create plays. Jimmy Butler has, I think 10 assists in his first two games. Five. Five per game. So now you've got three guys with him and Draymond and Steph who can keep the offense humming. That's huge. But the free throws. The free throws.
- [41:53]
Austin Rivers
28 free throw attempts.
- [41:55]
Howard Beck
28 free throws in two games. Which is according to. A couple people have noted this, so I won't give cite any specific person, but like 28 free throws in two games is the most in a two game span by a Warrior since Kevin Durant in 2018.
- [42:12]
Austin Rivers
Yep.
- [42:13]
Howard Beck
It's been seven years since the warriors had somebody generate 28 free throws in a two game span. That's what Jimmy does, though. Like, this is not some outlier, this is what this is. Jimmy's offense, as Rogers told said said last week, grimy. And the warriors, before they got Jimmy were 27th in the NBA in free throw attempts, 30th in free throws made and 30th and free throw percentage, despite the fact that Steph Curry is like the greatest free throw shooter on earth, percentage wise. That's all huge. And then nothing even, you know, amidst all of that, I don't think anything's bigger than Steph saying, quote, every possession just doesn't feel as hard. Like Steph is just telling you right now, like, my job has just gotten easier and Steph has exploded the last couple of games and he, you know, you could see like it was wearing on him trying to carry this offense by himself at times for the last couple of months. On top of it all we could, you know, this is, it's a, it's a mixed bag on this one. Jonathan Kuminga is not even playing yet. So when Kuminga gets back, that's one more guy who can attack the rim, who brings some athleticism and some finishing. How he fits as, as a, you know, mesh shooter when they need to play Jimmy and Draymond to. We'll see. But like, there's still potentially an even better version of the warriors here when Kaminga gets back.
- [43:31]
Austin Rivers
Championship on the horizon. But RAJA Her, Larry O'Brien coming to the Bay Area.
- [43:37]
Pasha Hagigi
No, no, I ain't, don't. You ain't put words in my mouth, but I, I will say it gives them that. It, it gives them that puncher's chance. And like Howard, you know, when Howard was talking about it last week and you kind of asked me what I thought of it and I, I thought it would work too. The caveat for me has, is always the, the, the other stuff. And, and I even admitted that, like, at least early in the experiment, you're going to get the best version of it. Like, you're going to get the best version of Jimmy for a while. Right? So, like, if, if we're assuming that, then I thought too, that, like, it was going to work on the court and for, for, you know, for a lot of the reasons Howard just said. Look, when you're down at the end of ball games, and I talk about this a lot, having multiple guys that you can give a ball to and can close games for you, right? Like, and that's what Kevin Durant brought to the warriors the first time he showed up. Well, when people hear that, they always think that, like, it's getting the bucket. Like it, they, they, they, they see, they visualize the move and the jumper or the layup and it going through the net in this spectacular way, and they're making these contested shots, but it's not always about that. It's about being able to get to that damn free throw line to like, to, to, to really put pressure on the defense by way of getting them in foul trouble, getting him in the bonus. So now they can't defend you the same way or you're at the free throw line. All of the ramifications that a physical beat you up. I get to the free throw a lot, A lot type of player brings with him and the Ability to score. You know, obviously, like the KD and Jimmy Ken, when he's hot, like, that was something that was hugely missing in Golden State. Like, and when you watched him play the other night, like, I, I think it supports kind of the idea that, like, Jimmy's kind of used to that. Like, you saw him on a few of those plays that were designed for him to, you know, come off with some actions, and they're trying to top lock it and, and he, and he and Draymond Griffin are already on the same page. And so he just throws it up to the rim and Jimmy catches it and like, lays it. Like, he's got some familiarity with running around a little bit that I, that I. That I actually. Yeah, you know, I did not hate it at all. I just. It always boils down to the human being and when, when, when, if, if and when that expiration date kind of happens, or if people start getting sideways with each other, but that you weren't ever going to see that, like, in the immediacy of the Jimmy Butler move.
- [46:04]
Austin Rivers
Especially. We got $120 million in his pocket. Yeah, I'll be. I. We'll be fine. You know what I mean? Let's do it. It's cool. But I think you saw, you know, just being around this team for a long time, like, you saw an edge that you really didn't see much of this season, right? Like, they slowed the game down. I don't remember a game that they have been in control throughout. Right? Now, granted, they were playing against a Giannis List Milwaukee Bucks team, right? Like, take that with a grain of salt, but just for. Just to slow the game down. You see Jimmy Butler taking a guy down on the post. He's. He's sealing in the paint, right? He's just. He looked like the OG in the park. I mean, that's Jimmy's game, right? Like, he just looked like big OG vibes in the park. Can't hit a 3 to save his life. But he's going to be in that paint. He's going to be getting to the free throw line. He's going to do the thing where he has one guy holding his arm, but he's holding his arm on the low and he does the. He throws a layup in and one right? Like just shit that Raja does with his kids now to. To win the game just cheap. But you saw more of that within the offense, and the warriors needed more than anything, just an edge now, and they have that with Jimmy Butler.
- [47:20]
Pasha Hagigi
Sorry, I. What I want to Attempt to like articulate what that does. Like the, what that does to a defense. Like the bind that, that put a defense in when you come into a game and, and the team that you're playing against can flow in and out of different playstyles, right? Like so Golden State typically is a, is a continuity fly around Steph centric team, right. And so we're going to work, you know, maybe, maybe not as much in the regular season because you don't have as much time, right. But like in the playoffs and I have time to really do an advanced scout of it and get your actions down. What we're going to do defensively against that becomes a choreographed dance, just like the offense itself, right? And so we're going to walk through that with the boom. Switch. Okay, you know this is coming. Okay, switch.
- [48:07]
Austin Rivers
Boom.
- [48:07]
Pasha Hagigi
You know this is coming. You know, like we're just going to, we're going to, we're going to imitate that. We'll know it like the back of our hand. Now it's easier said than done stopping it, but we, we kind of are as prepared as we can be to stop that. Now you throw in a KD or in this instance the Jimmy Butler where they don't got to play like that. This is old man at the park. Give him the ball space, the floor. What now we got to have an answer for that. So, so if it's not like an individual defender, like we have one of the best defenders on the planet that can kind of counter that and we're going to leave him alone. Now this is a whole nother choreographed dance we got to get into. We never know when they're going to flow in and out of either one. And it just adds levels to your preparation for them. It adds margin of error for them as an offense, you know, because they can play you different ways depending on what you're trying to do to them that they just didn't have the luxury of, of, of having before you had Jimmy Butler.
- [49:07]
Austin Rivers
That's why it was such bullshit from like Warrior fans and just the national narrative when KD was there that, oh man, like we're still good, better without kd. Like we did it, bro.
- [49:19]
Pasha Hagigi
Fuck out of here.
- [49:19]
Austin Rivers
The fact, just for that alone, obviously we're talking about like KD and Jimmy Butler who are all star players, but the fact that they can give contrast to that offense is unlocked it because at times during the Steph Curry era, they could get a bit predictable. And when you slowed them down in big moments, I'm thinking about the 2016 finals, you could really disrupt them if you just played hard nosed defense and got into the passing leads and made them work and made the game muddy. The anecdote to that is a Jimmy Butler who's like, oh yeah, I love the mud. I'm here. Give me the fucking ball in the paint. Let's slow this shit down and I can get you a bucket or I can get to the free throw line throwing up some bullshit and get to the three throw line 15 times a game. Like that's what is great about the Jimmy Butlers and the KDs and what they need that contrast to make this offense better. So. All right, let's.
- [50:11]
Howard Beck
Plus they've got rookie of the year Quentin Post, so that's good.
- [50:16]
Austin Rivers
Yo, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna say the name of the person that said this, but I was at a Warriors game and some. And this is early in Quentin Post, his tenure. They said he looks like, he looks more like Quentin Perimeter.
- [50:32]
Howard Beck
That's pretty good.
- [50:34]
Austin Rivers
I'll tell you guys. All fair, but it was great. It was fantastic because he wasn't getting a board or nothing. He was just, he was just shooting threes. Anyways, let's make some predictions per Howard Beck's request. We just talked about. There were some other things that we wanted to talk about. I could just say that. Dear Fox, we'll talk about him later. Dear Fox has been up and down with the San Antonio spurs, just like I kind of predicted anyways, but we'll talk about that later. Let's predict the big trades and what's going to happen. Let's start off Beck with the Los Angeles Lakers Prediction time. What do you predict is going to happen in the. For the rest of the way here?
- [51:16]
Howard Beck
I think the Lakers. Yeah, I mean, listen, we didn't cover the Mark Williams fiasco, but having to rescind that trade and bring players back and all that and still not have a center other than Jackson Hayes, not great. And I think the lack of size and depth is going to hurt them over the course of the next couple of months. The west is in just a weird state of flux after Oklahoma. So it's hard to like look at the Lakers go like, oh, well, they'll be in trouble because xyz these teams are all going to be better than them. I'm not sure. I'm just really not sure. So chances are that they're going to be right where they are right now. Somewhere in the middle of the playoff pack. They're in that 4 or 5 range, maybe they fall to 6. I think the concern is more this, My prediction of Lakers is this, they might win a playoff round. They're probably not winning a second round because the second they come up against a team with size, I'm thinking Oklahoma with Hartenstein and Chad Holmgren or the Nuggets with Jokic, who smoked them even when they had Anthony Davis. The Lakers are just not as great as Luka is. And as much respect as I have for him and LeBron and as well as they've been playing like the Lakers do not have the personnel it's going to require to get through two, three rounds of playoffs, like, this is not a contender this season and I'm not even guaranteeing they get out of the first round. But you know, look, you didn't make the Luca trade for this June. You made it for the future.
- [52:44]
Austin Rivers
Also, if someone were to tell you, and I agree with you wholeheartedly on that, if someone were to tell you after Polinka, after this trade, you get Luka and you get a five seed and you win a playoff round with this roster. Yeah, I'm taking that. I'll take it. It's fine. Figure it out this summer.
- [52:59]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [53:00]
Austin Rivers
What do you think about the Lakers Raja going for?
- [53:02]
Pasha Hagigi
Yeah, no, I, I think Howard nailed it. Like, I could, I could see them, honestly, I, I, I could see them anywhere from third to probably sixth in there. I think that regular season actually they are going to be tougher than they, than they would be over the course of a, a, a series and it's going to be matchup based. I agree with just about everything Howard said there. Like they're, they're a matchup team. Right? Like if you have something that's punitive by way of around that class and on the boards and you know, interior wise, that's going to be a struggle for them. So, you know, for that, for that reason, I don't know where they wind up ultimately in the Western Conference playoffs, but because the Western Conference is just like wide open outside of the top of it. Like, I mean, I'm not totally mad at it. I don't know what to say other than that. Like, I don't think they win a championship this year, but they could, they could have gotten Luca and be very happy with, hey man, we're, we're cool. We'll address what we need to address in the off season.
- [54:05]
Howard Beck
One other quick note on them, by the way. According to Tankathon's remaining schedule assessment, strength of schedule, the Lakers have the eighth toughest remaining schedule. That includes two games against the Thunder, a game against the Celtics, game against the Grizzlies, game against the Knicks, three against the Nuggets, still two against the Rockets. So, like the, the schedule may have something to do with this too. And the Lakers just may wear down. So.
- [54:30]
Austin Rivers
I mean, we'll see what happens. But if the playoffs ended today, they'd be playing the Rockets, which would be. I would take the Lakers of that. I'm sorry.
- [54:37]
Howard Beck
I would too.
- [54:39]
Austin Rivers
Let's go with the Dallas Mavericks. Howard, what do you think going forward? I think they're sliding. I think that this is a, this is so catastrophic and it's going to end terribly this summer and beyond, bro. It's, it's, it's cookies. Like we went from them being, oh, they could be second in the West. Charles Barkley said to now, like, you have no Anthony Davis. They're reeling. The fans have revolted. It is not good in Dallas right now.
- [55:08]
Howard Beck
No. And they lost Daniel Gafford to knee injury last night. I think Lively's already out for a long stretch here. Anthony Davis is now out. Is PJ Washington banged up too? I think like they're, they're, they're beat to hell right now. So on that alone, it's hard to, to see the Mavericks doing much over the next couple of months or in the playoffs, if they even make it there. On top of that, you know, even if they were at full strength, I had some concerns and skepticism about them because I just think that they're going to be very Kyrie Reliant. And you can't count on Kyrie or Anthony Davis to stay healthy for any length of time. And Kyrie so far has this season. But no, look at everything up the trade, the vibes, the injuries, all of it. The Mavericks are eighth as of right now, but they're a game out of. There are a game ahead of 11th place, which is out of the play in. And I think that's where they land. I think the Mavericks missed the play in entirely. I think they finish no better than 11th when all is said and done.
- [56:13]
Austin Rivers
Well, I agree too. And also you noted in that game last night that Gaffer got hurt. That was against the Kings, who are battling with them for that playing. That was a wild finish, too. Kings, Mavericks with that, with the back and forth between it was DeMar DeRozan and Klay Thompson. That was a great finish. I agree with you. The Mavericks vibes are all better. Are you in agreements with that too, Raja?
- [56:36]
Pasha Hagigi
This Is, yeah, kind of, but different than you guys. This is totally health dependent for me.
- [56:41]
Austin Rivers
Okay.
- [56:42]
Pasha Hagigi
This is totally based on, on, on. You know, I don't even know the gafford situation, but AD's availability or lack, lack thereof, you know, and the other pieces being out because when I watch now, this could have been the building and it could have been all of the, you know, effects of the LUCA trade and the built up, pent up frustration and everything like that. But I saw a stingy fucking defensive unit like I, I did. I mean I, I saw people, I saw people making extra efforts and plays at the rim and trying to block. They were stingy and the, and they were flying around and I thought that was really sustainable. And then, and then AD went down. Right now I'm not, again, I'm not sitting here. This has got nothing to do with luca. But if they were healthy, I thought that they could, they could maybe have movers in the Western Conference. Honestly, I thought that they would be moving up without them in the lineup, without ad, obviously and the other bigs. Like I don't know what they become. So I will agree with you guys just because I don't know how long he's out. And those groins are weird, right, like, or those abdominal poles are weird. Like you saw Quinn Ewers this year go out with one and he was never really the same quarterback from Texas. Like it was never really the same even when you come back. So I, I tend to agree with you guys, but I just want to, I just want to put a fucking A a fine point on that. They were, that was going to be a stingy ass defensive unit.
- [58:07]
Austin Rivers
And you saw that in the first game too, which is sad. Like you saw like how dominant they could be in AD's first game. Last one. I'll start this off. We're gonna go with the Warriors. I think that they just stay in within the playing mix. I don't see them getting to the six seed and maybe I could be wrong, right, like, but they. One thing that they do have for them, you talked, we brought up Tankathon. They have the 19th hardest schedule in the league, right? They play, they play Memphis one time, they play the Knicks twice, Denver twice. The Rockets and the Clippers as well. They could. I don't, I just, I don't see them making a run. I think they're a really good basketball team, but I don't think that they're whole as they can be. So I think they just stay within the playing mix. Maybe they get into a first round series. Maybe not. But I think that this move, similar to the Lakers Luca move is for the next couple of years of Steph's run. And if they. It wouldn't be the worst thing if they didn't go deep into the playoffs this season. What do you guys think?
- [59:11]
Howard Beck
I mean I've been the optimist on the warriors and on the Butler trade from the beginning, so I'll just push all the chips in. They've only got two and a half games to make up to get to sixth, which is where the Clippers are right now. I think they make it. I actually do think they make it. There's going to be some bumps along the way here and everything else. Logan, you noted it. They've got the 19th toughest schedule. So the schedule is not. Not that bad for them. Commingle will be back sometime soon presumably. Steph looks refreshed. I think they've got a run in them and again it's only two and a half games to make up to get to six. That does mean they have to leapfrog Sacramento. Not that big of a task. Dallas again, I'm, you know, I think they're. They're going the other direction. Minnesota's gotten their stuff together recently, so that's another one. But those are the teams. They got a leapfrog, but also the.
- [60:02]
Austin Rivers
Clippers give them trouble as well. The Clippers are. I think the Clippers are a better team than people realize. Like, I do get that they. And they do match up really well with Golden State. Like that'll. It'll. The reason why I think that they will be in the playing is because the Timberwolves and the Clippers are just so tough to leapfrog. Like I do get. I. They can make up the games, but they. Those two teams are really hard specifically in the Western Conference.
- [60:26]
Howard Beck
Fair.
- [60:27]
Pasha Hagigi
Yeah, I'm in the middle of that. I'm. I could. I was. My point would be like I wouldn't be completely surprised because I could see them moving up but that, that would obviously, you know, factor in Minnesota struggling and the Clippers, but I do see them playing better than Dallas and Sack. So I wouldn't be surprised if they were able to get into six. But that could keep them even if they're playing good basketball because of those other two teams in the play in. So yeah, I mean I'm just kind of straddling the fence there with you guys.
- [60:57]
Austin Rivers
Look at us. Agree. All right, let's bring in Cliff here. Cliff, what do you think about the Dallas Mavericks. Mavericks chance going into the playoffs.
- [61:05]
Cliff
I mean, my man AD went down.
- [61:08]
Austin Rivers
Excuse me.
- [61:09]
Cliff
My man AD went down. It's a wrap. They was looking good. I was watching the game. He was dominating, catching lives. He had a put back on. I think he banged on Shingoon in that game too as well. Was going right at Amen Thompson. He was looking good in the first couple minutes and then it just all went downhill so fast. I mean, damn, like to get injured that quickly and to have the backlash that the Mavericks have been facing with, you know, these weirdo fans bringing coffins in front of the arena and. And saying we want Luka and wearing Luka jersey. Like, just first of all, just stop that. That's creepy as hell. And second of all, like, Fady came back and they were actually, you know, somewhat healthy. I think they'll be fine. I think they'd be above a playing team, but we'll see what's up with that. But y'all want to get to some mailbag questions?
- [61:55]
Austin Rivers
Let's get it.
- [61:56]
Cliff
All right, this is from Ryan S. Hi guys. Much love from a true Real Ones OG listener. This is my first mailbag submission, but I always have been a long time fan. Much love to Logan, Raja and Howard. Y'all are the best in the business. Anyway, much love and prayers to the great Popovich out there. Hope he gets better soon. But in his long, lustrous coaching career, who in your opinion are your favorite and best coaches connected with through playing or beat writing for the teams? Thanks. Much love, Ryan.
- [62:24]
Austin Rivers
Ooh, that's a good one.
- [62:27]
Pasha Hagigi
So Ryan asked.
- [62:30]
Austin Rivers
Go ahead, Raja.
- [62:31]
Pasha Hagigi
He's asking who are favorite coaches that we played for that are connected to Pop?
- [62:36]
Cliff
It's, it's. Are your favorite best coaches connected with through playing or beat writing for the teams?
- [62:41]
Howard Beck
Oh, he was just using Pop as.
- [62:42]
Cliff
A. Yeah, Pop was just an example here.
- [62:44]
Pasha Hagigi
Yeah, I got it.
- [62:47]
Cliff
So he must be a Spurs fan, I'm assuming.
- [62:49]
Pasha Hagigi
Yeah, I mean, sorry. Yeah, Pop. Pop. I mean, Pop. Even though I didn't get to play for Pop. Pop. Pop is still one of my favorites. You know, I always had a really good rapport with him and he always had kind words about me as a player and having to kind of let me go and the tough decision that that was for them when I was a young player. And I always appreciated that, you know, and I'd see him a lot because. Because our son's teams would play them in the playoffs. You know, my. My favorite two coaches. I think if you distill it down because I, I play, I was blessed. I always tell people, you know, my track record, I, Larry Brown was my, was my first. Well, Pop was my first coach, but Larry Brown was the first person I really played for, right. And then Don Nelson was the second coach I played for. And then I played for Jerry Sloan and Mike D'Antoni and then for Mike D'Antoni, you know, I was traded for by Larry Brown again. So I played for Larry Brown a second time and then I was traded for from Larry Brown by Don Nelson again. And then after, right after that I was a free agent and got to play for Jerry Sloan again. So all I ever really knew, aside from the two coaches that I didn't really love, they're well documented, were like hall of Fame coaches. I was really blessed in that regard. My favorite two probably people because I got to know them the best and whatever were, were Mike D'Antoni and, and Jerry Sloan. Like, and they were like polar opposites of each other. But like I respected them both a lot and you know, I loved them both a lot and so they were my two favorites.
- [64:25]
Howard Beck
That's fascinating, Raj, because, and I was thinking about this as you were talking. Mike D'Antoni is the ultimate modern day players coach, Easygoing, short practices, all that. And Jerry Sloan is the ultimate old school hard ass like you. You could not have had more polar opposites for your two like favorite guys. Like I think that's fascinating, but also just like shows like various approaches can work, you know, depending on situation.
- [64:53]
Pasha Hagigi
Yep.
- [64:54]
Howard Beck
Love it.
- [64:55]
Austin Rivers
Oh, you want to, you want, you want to go back? You want me to go?
- [64:59]
Howard Beck
No, I mean I've, obviously I've talked to a lot of coaches in 28 seasons, but in terms of like beat writer, like day to day where I have to talk to the same coach every day and more like the coach has to deal with me every day for an entire season. Like there have been some good ones. Like Dale Harris was awesome because he was just like the nicest man you could possibly deal with on a day to day basis and was so explanatory, sometimes to a fault because sometimes it was like Dell, this is great man. But I got, I gotta go write my story. And you're still like explaining, explaining the inner workings of the zone offense or something. He was great. Phil Jackson, obviously I covered for five years. And Phil, Phil was great because Phil knew how to give you what you needed. Whether it was the beat writers, whether it was national people coming in, whoever it was, some random radio dude from two Hours outside of la, would show up and ask a question pregame. Phil Jackson always like he had an anecdote or some little nugget to give you. Like, he was great, he was fun to deal with. And yeah, there's all kinds of, you know, weird stuff that comes with Phil, but like he was, he was fun. Raja played for Dan, Tony. I covered Dantoni when he was coaching the Knicks. Mike was awesome. Like it just again, all time great human being and was great with the media. Great just to even just, just shoot the shit with. You didn't have to talk basketball all the time. So those guys are up there. I'm probably forgetting some folks. Avery Johnson was a kick when he was covered when he was coaching the Nets and I was, was covering them for a while there. But there have been a lot. But like that's, that's the partial list.
- [66:33]
Austin Rivers
First of all, I want to say Steve Kerr was the absolute stud I've ever had. Put that on, smiled.
- [66:40]
Howard Beck
Such a bad guy.
- [66:41]
Austin Rivers
He smiled. He would give great anecdotes. Just a terrible human being. Just everyone like him.
- [66:47]
Logan Murdoch
What do you think?
- [66:48]
Pasha Hagigi
Who does he think?
- [66:49]
Austin Rivers
Does he think he is? He was terrible. Steve was. Steve. Steve was good. It was just, that was always just wild to cut your teeth while a dynasty is happening, right? Because everything is so competitive and everything matters. And having to be a beat writer when literally everything you, I mean, Beck, you knew this when like when the warriors were good. Like every practice meant something. Everything that came out of practice been something. And just to learn from, not just him was, was, but from everybody on during that run was like, was very formative. Mike Brown, really good dude, I think always was helpful. Always also just like had a, like a good way about him. Was just always like kind of like smiling. Always just very optimistic. And you know, especially when your team is losing, it's cool to have like somebody with some level of optimism because like it sucks. Like it sucks when you're covering a losing team. Like it, it's just, it's just so when you have a good coach in that environment, it's good. Dale Harris was really good. I actually, I talked to Dale Harris for a story I was doing on Nick Van Exel when I was interning. And I talked to him for an hour because. And I probably only asked like three questions and he was, just gave me everything. And like he was emotional about like he loved. He was talking about like how much he loved Van Exel, but like hated how it went down for him to leave. It was just like it was like he was re. Re. Reliving the whole Van Exel situation in real time. But it was fascinating. It was great. He was great. Fisdale, David Fisdale was, was really good to me when I was interned in Memphis. He was really good. Doc Rivers, really? Doc's good. There's, there's a reason why Doc keeps getting head coaching jobs because he's an incredible people person. Everyone loves Doc and so he's really good. Yeah, that's, that's the list that I have.
- [68:57]
Howard Beck
Can I give, can I give one other one?
- [68:59]
Austin Rivers
One other one before your dad. Howard's impression. Rod Adams, the ghost.
- [69:03]
Howard Beck
Ron's the best. I think we were talking mostly head coaches, but yeah, Ron's like all time great as an assistant.
- [69:10]
Austin Rivers
Yeah.
- [69:10]
Howard Beck
When you cover Dell, everybody on the beat does Del Harris impressions. So it's always like, well, everyone wants to blame the old coach. You know, everything was like, there was a lot of wow, you get that like that Indiana draw, which was very, very charming, very endearing.
- [69:28]
Austin Rivers
Except 19 year old Kobe and it wasn't that endearing to him.
- [69:32]
Howard Beck
Fair. Yeah. Or, or, or a 20 whatever year old nick Van Exel at that time because those two did not connect. Quick, quick, before we leave this question, this topic quick, just thing on Pop real quick. Like obviously if you, if you cover Pop near or far as a beat writer or national, like there's, there's a whole spectrum of stuff there because Pop can be really tough, but he can also be amazing. And I just want to say while we're all sending obviously well wishes to him for a speedy recovery and hope he's back soon this season or maybe it'll be next season. I do hope we see him back. Among the things I'm missing right now personally are hearing Pop be the politically conscious individual that he is and taking every opportunity to weigh in on the things that really matter in the world. And I feel like that voice is especially missed right now, to say the least. I wish, I wish we were hearing from him right now, given the state of things.
- [70:28]
Pasha Hagigi
Good point. I.
- [70:29]
Austin Rivers
One more question.
- [70:30]
Pasha Hagigi
Hold on. I want to say, I want to say something to Howard's thing real quick. Howard, because you got me thinking about how, how opposite they were and it. And I was giving a little thought as you guys were giving your list. You know, both of those coaches, as much as they were just different human beings and ran different, you know, culturally ran different ships. There was very little like mental warfare with either one of them. There were very little mind games being played when you went to work, it was pretty cut and dry. Like Mike, because he wanted everything to be so fresh for you mentally. And confidence was his big deal that he always wanted you to be free mentally. Right? And Jerry, because he just, hey, you come to work, you foul his ass, you get up, you play him tough as nails, you know, like, that just was his style. And I think as great as, as. As Larry Brown and Nelly were, for whatever reason in their situations, there was a lot going on with me mentally when I walked into the building. Like, there was a lot of. There was. There was a lot of shit that that could be stirred up top that, that, that. I mean, it doesn't mean that they're not great coaches, but for me, that was that I felt that more in their. In their buildings than I did in the other two. And that's, you know, that's just an interesting thing, right? Like two completely different dudes. But when you walk in their buildings, there was no mental, you know, kind of games being played. You didn't feel like there was any mental warfare. You were just there to kind of work and get the best out of it Anyway.
- [72:01]
Cliff
Yeah. You want to get to this last one?
- [72:04]
Austin Rivers
Yes, sir.
- [72:05]
Cliff
Before we get to the last one. The flag was fly. Go Birds. Come on. You've already said. Come on, man.
- [72:10]
Austin Rivers
E H E A L E L Eagles. Sorry I that up, but y'all can say it. Y'all can enunciate it better.
- [72:16]
Cliff
All right, so, hi, real ones. Longtime Lakers fan from Germany here. So also a longtime reader of Howard and even longer time hater of Raja. As long as it's later. You heard. Damn, you heard it here first. Wimy is coming to save the All Star Game. That was already my gut feeling before. He said he wasn't going there to make friends, but rather to see it as a business trip. Wemby was put on his earth to get people's shots out of there. And my guess is he won't stop doing that among All Stars. And at some point, players will hopefully not want to get embarrassed and up their effort level as well. So I fully trust Wemby as our basketball savior and shout out to the poor traveling salesman Dennis Schroeder and all other Germans holding down the NBA. All the best, Kai. So I did that in honor of All Star Weekend coming up here. As you know, we're going to make the pilgrimage to San Fran, kick it for a little bit. So. Yeah. Is Wemby going to save the All Star Game?
- [73:06]
Pasha Hagigi
Nah, that. Let me hope address this that anybody worried about?
- [73:09]
Austin Rivers
No. Me.
- [73:12]
Pasha Hagigi
Just make this clear, right, to all you mofos out there to harbor the same feelings as him. I hate you, too. Believe that. Believe that. Hey, mamas. Let her hop on some kind of online platform. Talk about how I ain't and how they always hated me and how. Hey, guess what? I hate you, too.
- [73:41]
Austin Rivers
Hey, remember that scene in Baby Boy where. Where Snoop kicks the kid's fort down? He said, I hate you. Well, I hate you, too.
- [73:54]
Howard Beck
We're gonna have to have, like, security.
- [73:56]
Austin Rivers
That went over Beck's head, by the way. That went completely over.
- [73:58]
Cliff
Remember that? Remember that scene in Baby Boy where he had him lined up and he had the belt and he spanked all of them? That's what the Eagles did to the Chiefs.
- [74:03]
Austin Rivers
Yo, Beck, did you. Do you remember that scene?
- [74:10]
Pasha Hagigi
Damn.
- [74:11]
Austin Rivers
Did he.
- [74:12]
Pasha Hagigi
Howard, you freeze. No, Howard, I'm good in the Beta.
- [74:15]
Austin Rivers
I'm good.
- [74:16]
Pasha Hagigi
Howard, I'm good in the Bay, man. Usually I'm good in the bay.
- [74:19]
Howard Beck
I'm worried. You got to go Vernon Maxwell on.
- [74:20]
Pasha Hagigi
Our audience is all, no, no, no, no. And honestly, maybe we should, because, like, you.
- [74:25]
Austin Rivers
Yo, you good money in the bay. They fuck with you in the bay, right? I'm all right.
- [74:28]
Pasha Hagigi
I'm all right in the bay. But you gonna get a lot of, like, All Star Weekend. A lot of people, bro. Like, so you go get a lot of Southern Cal up there and honestly, I mean, the. I mean, you guys don't. The amount of people that say that they would, like, beat my ass and, like, they would me up on site, like, it. It's some wild shit, though. Like, it's really.
- [74:48]
Austin Rivers
But then they see your tall 6, 7 ass and be like, oh, I was just playing.
- [74:52]
Pasha Hagigi
No, but, like. But, like what? I mean, clearly, this.
- [74:56]
Austin Rivers
It's.
- [74:56]
Pasha Hagigi
It's such a weird. I mean, look, man, yeah, I had a moment or a few moments with Kobe, but even he and I became cool. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, it's just a fascinating thing, bro. And then that does happen. Logan, I've told my story before about being at the Laker game. I've told. Have I told this story about, like, I watched when I got suspended for that. Like, I had to watch it with my. With my. With my pr. Ashley Smith, my PR rep in. At a bar in la. And there was a dude at the bar. Oh, he was m. Effing me the whole game. He ain't shit.
- [75:33]
Austin Rivers
Like.
- [75:34]
Pasha Hagigi
Like, just, you know, calling me all out my name and all of that. And we went into the Bathroom. Halftime, right? Urinal. Two. Two people down. He don't even see me. So he goes to wash his hands, and I pull up, like, after, and I'm waiting to wash the hands. And that looked at me in the mirror, and he looked like he saw a fucking ghost, like. And I'm waiting, like, where's the energy, my boy? Like, I. Hey, what's up? My man didn't say a word. Slinked out and went back and sat in his seat. And it's always like the same shit. And it's wild.
- [76:06]
Austin Rivers
Like, you begin so worked up. The amount of anecdotes that I've gotten in the wild about Raja Bell is insane. That Raja will fuck you up is insane. I've gotten it. Or like, Raja was wild, and Raja was doing this was do. I've told you some of these stories off back then.
- [76:26]
Pasha Hagigi
Back then. I don't live that. I don't live that life back then, back then.
- [76:29]
Austin Rivers
Yeah. But if somebody try you, oh, yeah, show up.
- [76:36]
Pasha Hagigi
I don't really want no smoke, bro. Hey, these youngins are w. These young is like, all jokes aside.
- [76:41]
Austin Rivers
These.
- [76:42]
Pasha Hagigi
These young.
- [76:44]
Austin Rivers
These ain't playing around, dog. These y ain't playing around.
- [76:48]
Pasha Hagigi
I do not live by and all that.
- [76:50]
Cliff
So you don't got no identity?
- [76:51]
Austin Rivers
Yeah, no, sir. I got kids. I'm good. Yeah. Wow, that's a good time to say that. This show, the Real Ones live show, is officially showed out. We'll see you guys at the Punchline on Saturday. Riser getting his big boy Jordan ones on. You know what I'm saying? Lock in, man.
- [77:11]
Pasha Hagigi
I don't know. I might. I might. Who knows?
- [77:14]
Austin Rivers
Who knows, right? Who knows? Cliff in the building. We have Beck in the motherfucker building. It's going to be lit, dog. Make sure y'all get there early. Also, it's lunar New Year, so it's going to be, I think, like 1.5 million people downtown SF. So make sure you all get there early. Make sure you get there early. Raja, you get there early, champ. It's going to be a movie.
- [77:34]
Pasha Hagigi
I'd be trying to avoid it.
- [77:35]
Austin Rivers
It's going to be popping in the city. Going to be popping in the city. Anyways, we'll see you guys. Not no Friday show, because we go. See y'all on Saturday in the flesh. See y'all at the Punchline. All right. That was been another edition of Real Ones. We have Joel Anderson and Brian Curtis next. You know, this was a great episode because we got Roger here for an hour and 18 minutes. It's crazy. Anyway, see you guys Saturday. Hella juice. Ah, all the shits. Let's do it as a team, guys. One, two, three. Bye. Bye. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for 15amonth plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistants assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com.
- [78:33]
Howard Beck
Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan according equivalent to 15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full terms@mintmobile.com.
- [78:48]
Austin Rivers
And we are back. I am really, really excited for this, ladies and gentlemen. And we have the J School Avengers of sports media, Brian Curtis and Joel Anderson. How are you fellas doing?
- [79:03]
Logan Murdoch
I'm just flattered to be here, man. You know, I mean this is, this is the spot for superstars, bro. You know, so I'm just. I feel like we've at least me, I don't. I can't speak for Brian. I feel like I finally arrived at the ringer, you know?
- [79:15]
Raja Bell
Oh my God, me too. Especially when you say Avengers. I mean our superpowers are like finding funny headlines.
- [79:23]
Austin Rivers
Stop being modest, guys. Stop being modest. I feel like this is the thing that other podcasters do when they go on other people's podcasts is to butter them up. Stop it, guys. I. Right. Although I appreciate it because you guys, I'm big fans of you guys. I wanted to talk about. We're going in the All Star weekend and I felt like this was just a good time to just do a state of the NBA media and state of NBA ratings and the future of all things NBA from a media standpoint. And I feel like you guys are the perfect people. So I have a. This is how serious I was, guys. I had a list of questions for each of you guys. We could just go. We could just talk and we could talk for how. As long as we want to talk. How little we want to talk. I said this pre pod. Like this could be a two hour discussion. But the first question I wanted to. I think I'll. I'll throw this to Brian really quickly because, you know, I feel like this season and I don't feel like I. I've ever seen ratings be this much of a talking point within a league to where it cannibalizes any other talking point about the Future of the league as the NBA this season. Right. Like, I don't even feel like we talk about that a storyline with any other, with any other league. I mean, we talk about all the time as journalists, but I feel like the greater consciousness and the greater, greater people and the greater fan base tend to talk about the ratings this season when it comes to the NBA. Like where are we with the, the ratings discussion in the NBA? And what do you think is the biggest misconception that we have this season about NBA specific ratings?
- [80:56]
Raja Bell
Well, I think the biggest one is that when we talk about numbers, the number that matters is the one that Adam Silver got from three different media entities last summer, which is $7 billion a year. And if I'm him, every time someone brings up a rating to me, I'm just pointing the sign $7 billion a year. Seven billion. Here we go. Seven billion. We got this. So I mean that, that to me is number one. Because ratings concerns aren't nothing, but you just got money that you only get from having a product that people want and people want to buy. And that's everything from the networks to Amazon. So that's where I'd start.
- [81:36]
Austin Rivers
What do you think, Joe?
- [81:37]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, I was going to say. And also ratings matter less now than at any point in league or TV history. Right. Like to Brian's point, like, it's not only the money you get, but Adam Silver talked about this. In December, attendance is up as high as it's ever been. Engagement on social media, these are all different sorts of metrics that we use to measure the popularity of a thing now. Like it's very rare that people are sitting around in other fields or other, other ways talking about TV ratings. Cause that's just not the way people are hoping to engage with audiences anymore. And so I think one reason that people get so fixated on this is that it's, it, it's confirmation bias. If you ignore the context, you. Every, every, every non NFL sport in this country is enduring ratings declines. Right? So if you, but, but if, but if you can ignore all that and you just want to focus on whatever you think wokeness is around the league or something like that, like you can use the ratings to sort of get at that. Like if you're mad at the league for, you know, once having, you know, jerseys that echoed social justice messaging on it, you can still sort of get at them by that, by talking about, see, you ran off your fans. And so I think that's what it, a lot is. This is sort of laziness you don't have to talk about the league if you talk about ratings too. I think that's the other thing too. So yeah, there's just a lot of reasons that people fixate on this. But it all goes back to some of the same old concerns and the same old concern trolling.
- [83:12]
Austin Rivers
Joe, why did. When you brought up an interesting point and, and what people talk about, at least the consumers talk about, which is wokeness killed the ratings of the NBA. And I think that's a little bit misguided considering the fact. Yeah, the, the NBA was the first to put Black Lives matter on the court. Yes, but they were also the first ones to take it away. Right? They were. And also the other leagues also put black Lives Matter and end racism and all these things. I mean, the NFL just took it down for the Super Bowl. Why do you think the NBA has this misconception of being this woke league when they have done everything opposite of what has been said that they are doing?
- [83:54]
Logan Murdoch
Logan, why are you doing this, man? Why are you forcing me?
- [83:55]
Austin Rivers
We here answer this question.
- [83:57]
Logan Murdoch
Why are you forcing me to answer? You know why? Well, okay, it's because the players are mostly black. And I mean we see that it's a lot of euphemisms around wokeness dei. Like when people are saying something and they really mean something else, it's because the majority of the players in this league are black. Now what I would push back on and say is that what have they actually said? Like, this was a very. This was a highly charged political year. And where was the NBA? Like, where were the NBA superstars in the middle of that? Like, I don't remember them taking like they were at the forefront of any of the messaging on.
- [84:31]
Austin Rivers
Yeah, we had Bomani Jones on like a couple, couple months ago, a couple of weeks ago. Excuse me. And that was one of the things that we brought up, right? Like none of the, like big time players endorsed a candidate except for LeBron, which was in the days leading up. Steph did. I'm going to say Steph did. He talked at the DNC and so does Steve Kerr. But like there was no Jaylen Brown statement, right? Which would, which would you would normally expect, right? There was no.
- [84:58]
Logan Murdoch
Kyrie was quiet.
- [85:00]
Austin Rivers
Kyrie was quiet. And I didn't for a long time because it was funny. I was at, I was at Team USA over the summer and Kamala came to a practice and I was really surprised that Steph kind of took the baton and like talking to Kamala, engaging with her on the floor and LeBron kind of took a step back into the background, and I was like, oh, this. This could be nothing, but it could be everything, right?
- [85:23]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah.
- [85:24]
Austin Rivers
And I was really surprised that it took him that long. And I wouldn't have been surprised if he didn't endorse a candidate this. This election cycle, to be honest with you. It's. It's been. What do you think about, like, the player advocacy during this time where it seems to be a lot different? We'll get back on track. But that is an important note for anyone that talks about, oh, the NBA and their players are way too woke.
- [85:45]
Logan Murdoch
Well, I mean, because we're still talking about wokeness. This is a conversation from years ago, and it has still sort of dominated the conversation when we. When we're talking about ratings or why the league isn't, you know, meeting whatever rating metrics they think that they should be meeting. And so they heard that. They've heard a lot of people criticize them and put them at the forefront. And also, to be frank, like a lot of other rich people, they probably were scared. You know, they knew that there was a. There's a. There was a lot on the line going into this election, and it does. No need if. If there's a 50, 50 shot, you know, your preferred candidate winning or losing, and you have a lot to protect. It wouldn't make a lot of sense to get out there in front of people if you're not especially passionate, if you're not especially a politically engaged player. And we don't seem to have that. Like you. I mean, you're in the locker room with Draymond. Draymond is an outspoken brother, man. What did he say going into this?
- [86:43]
Austin Rivers
It wasn't. I believe he ended up supporting Kamala, but it wasn't like a forceful endorsement. Right. It wasn't like they weren't on the campaign trail. LeBron wasn't on the campaign trail. Just put up an Instagram post. Right. It wasn't like a big, Big. A big thing like how it was in 2020, for instance. Right. Or not even just 2020 election, but also the midterms. Right. LeBron did a video statement for Raphael Warnock way back in the day. Right. Like, it wasn't that way.
- [87:09]
Raja Bell
Don't forget that. That was one of my LeBron highlights.
- [87:12]
Austin Rivers
Yeah. Yeah.
- [87:14]
Logan Murdoch
Nobody was as loud as Harrison Butker in the NBA this year, you know?
- [87:19]
Austin Rivers
Right, right.
- [87:22]
Logan Murdoch
And there's a reason for that. I think there's a reason. I think they're scared, and I think they Heard the criticisms and they like, you know, what they can do, their side projects, their philanthropy, their, you know, social messaging and their little smaller networks or whatever. But in terms of asking for a bigger, broader statement from the league, they probably thought probably not worth it.
- [87:42]
Austin Rivers
Yeah, let's get back on to the TV side of it. I got a question for you, Brian. You talked about the new TV deal. You're bringing NBC and Amazon into the fold, right. And inside the NBA is going to be an ESPN ESPN entity. Excuse me. Which is going to be fascinating considering, I mean, you guys talk about ESPN all the time, just about their standards. And then you're going to bring in potentially Charles Barkley and everything that that is inside the NBA has to, has to bring, which I love, but I don't know if Disney necessarily loves everything that is going to come out of that. But I'll, I'll save the inside the NBA question, but when these two entities coming in into the mix, do you think that will help or hurt the NBA's product? Because like, as a consumer, I'm a, I am a journalist in this space, reporter in this space, and I'm also a fan of this space. Right. And as a consumer, it seems like we have now brought the conversation that should be on, on television traditionally onto social media. And you see that specifically with espn where it seems like you're just bringing Twitter to television. And I don't know if that necessarily makes great television, but you have NBC, which we saw during the Olympics, their storytelling apparatus. Right. And you see Amazon, who wants to put a foothold into sports in general. What do you think this new, these two new entities are going to look like in the fold of the NBA media sphere?
- [89:15]
Raja Bell
It's a really good question. I think a couple of things, I mean, one is whenever you bring in two new partners like that, they become giant advertisers of the NBA because they just spent all this money. So of course they want people to actually watch NBA games or engage with them in some non watching way. But I think when, mostly when we talk about NBC and Amazon, they want you to watch the games. That's, that's there. They don't care about Twitter engagement. They want you to actually go onto their streaming services or on an NBC's case, onto their channel and watch the games. The storytelling is fascinating because I do think at times on espn, just because of the way debate has become the signature. What do you want to call it? Key of that network of. It's become almost like. And because look, Stephen, a's on their pregame show. So it's like this is the way we talk about the NBA. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think he probably, Stephen A. Probably generates lots of interest in the NBA. NBA, but there's also other ways to do it, right? There's old school NBA on NBC in the 90s. Here's Hannah Storm sitting down with Charles Barkley to talk about his recent controversy. Here's some, you know, glossy player profiles. So I just think bringing those other things in and then Amazon's totally different. Amazon, you know, hey, I'm going on to buy razor blades. And there is a little ad for the Pelicans game tonight that folks, I didn't know it was on. I didn't because I'm not a basketball right at the ringer. I not have known that was a thing tonight at all. And now I can get on there and watch it and it's another portal for me to watch NBA stuff.
- [90:54]
Austin Rivers
Well, the one thing that I saw, Brian, over the summer, because I think that was a preview. The Olympics was definitely a preview of what's to come from NBC, you know, And I will get to Amazon in a second. I mean, I don't think there's much to talk about Amazon other than like they're literally using the NBA and the NFL as a vessel to sell you everything, right. Like, they're not really tripping off of pre and post. So I think that that's just. They're here to sell you stuff. But for NBC, like, I saw what can be done when you have storytelling involved, right. You have Mike Tirico just with the, with the Eiffel Tower in the background just giving you a whole bunch of great propaganda about the game. Right. I feel like that's something that we're missing from an NBA only standpoint. Right. I feel like, and I've said this and I've lamented this when I first got back to real ones in January, which is, I think NBA is more interested in the bullshit than actual the game. Right. And I feel like there was a time when I was growing up, I'm sure when Joel was growing up, when you were growing up, that we actually put the onus on how great the game, right. And what was going on with the game. It's the NBA Finals and we're over here talking about a, a coaching hire. Why is that the lead. I'm talking about in June. Why is that the lead discussion point in an NBA Finals game? And I felt like we got A lot of that over the last 10 years. And I feel like at least maybe this is just old school with me. I feel like NBC is going to bring that back in a more positive way. And I think that can grow the game a lot more than what we're. Where we're currently at, which is, oh, this person is going to get traded in in two weeks. Right. Or this like the conversation isn't on the game. It's always on the background game. And I don't feel like we lost that balance.
- [92:37]
Raja Bell
I completely agree. And we're saying this right after the Luca trade. You know what's going to be the most memorable NBA moment of the last 12 months? It's going to be the Celtics winning the title. Or is going to be Luca being traded in the middle of the night? It's an interesting question. You know, the answer is not obvious to that question. I agree with you. I think we've come to the strange place with transactions. It's every sport. Like super bowl pregame shows on Sunday they were talking about, you know, where's. What's Aaron Rodgers going to do next year? It's not unknown in other sports, but in the NBA it sort of overwhelmed actual basketball to a point. Even really interesting actual basketball. And I don't. I'm with you. I'm old school on that where I'm like, can't we do this but also spend tons of time on the actual product? I don't know how we go back from that because we've seen all the financial incentives being into transaction world.
- [93:29]
Logan Murdoch
But is it. Isn't that every sport and sort of now like our beloved college football? Brian, the transfer portal, you know, the off season machinations of these teams. Oh, man, they signed Will Howard. Oh, no. UT got University of Houston's three best players. You know, things like that. And I think that like, that's just a part of how it works. Because the Olympics is, I think, fundamentally different because those aren't sports fans that they're getting with the Olympics, right? Like, it's people that are watching TV and want to see good stories. And it's not people that typically watch figure skating, you know, throughout the year. They want to see a good story. They want to see the sweeping vistas of the Olympic host site. But people with the NBA, like, presumably by the time we come to the game, a lot of us already know that stuff because storytelling is already so fractured. The players are telling their own stories, the teams are telling their own stories. There's all these other things right and so that makes it, that makes it sort of tough for other things to, to, to, to break through. And so we sort of resort to the transactional stuff or the drama stuff. And I would say, but not for nothing, in my youth there weren't avenues for that sort of stuff. It's not like Ahmad Rashad, Will Obey were giving us that dirt on envy on inside stuff, but they were not. I read Jordan Rules and Jordan Rules was a sensation because it did not just talk about what was happening on the court. It was like, hey man, Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright, don't fuck with mj. You know, it was like that kind of stuff that was in the background and that book was really popular. So I think that like there's an availability of that information that didn't used to be there and there's so many other avenues to tell that stuff. But you know, like, I'm sure the NBC will adjust and they'll try to figure out like the right balance of things, I imagine.
- [95:16]
Austin Rivers
I think the problem also is like when you're comparing basketball to football, basketball doesn't necessarily have just the time slots that an NFL or a college has, right? Like college has, you know, you wake up at 6am on the, on the, on the west coast and it is college game day for four hours, you know. Right. Like, or even same on Sunday with NFL Countdown. Like there's, there is enough time to build up this anticipation, right? Like on NBA Countdown on ESPN is like 25 minutes, right? Or it's not. You can't even. We've, we've all done some form of television. Like we're all in podcasting for a reason. We've all done some form of television, right. You have two seconds to like formulate a thought and then that's it. Right. Especially on a 30 minute show. I do wonder, like I think, but I do want to pose this question to the room. I do. I. Before I answer this question, I will ask this question. I will answer it by myself. I think NBC is in pole position to be like the number one version or the number one crew in five years because they have the storytelling element, but they also have the opportunity to have an hour pregame show where I get to know these guys. I don't really know. My favorite player to watch now is Anthony Edwards. I don't really know anything about him. Right. Like I can read them in the Athletic, but like from something like I don't have a sit down like moment where I like, no, I know I know him. Right. And I think NBC has a great opportunity to do that. But who do you think, Brian? I know I just kind of led you on with this question, but, like, who do you believe is in pole position, like, say, in five years to, like, be the one and actually be able to take the grips of the finals or be in pole position to take the grips of the finals from espn?
- [97:00]
Raja Bell
Well, you and I, when three of us, you know, are print people. So when we think of storytelling, we think of a big feature article or maybe a big sit down interview in a pregame show. But storytelling, to me. You mentioned Torico. It's done during a game as well.
- [97:14]
Austin Rivers
Yeah, it's.
- [97:14]
Raja Bell
It's the ability to call a game and also tell a story about anybody at the same time. And you do that through words. You do that through, you know, doing your research on the front end. You also do that through visuals.
- [97:26]
Logan Murdoch
Right?
- [97:26]
Raja Bell
You do that through close ups. Get in on tight on him as you tell this story over four quarters. Like, there are ways to do that. One of my complaints about espn, it's just totally. Maybe this is just me being on the media podcast and, you know, making Joel bored with these takes every week is like, I look at their production, I'm like, hey, I'm watching the NBA Finals. I love a lot of what ESPN does, and I love Mike Breen, certainly. But everything about their storytelling apparatus and about the broadcast feels antiquated to me. You know, we're going to Mr. Big Stuff when we're going to a commercial during the NBA Finals. And I'm like, that song's cool, but why the hell are we talking about this right now? Why are we showing pictures of Wilt Chamberlain as we, you know, black and white photos during the NBA Finals? That has nothing to do with what we're talking about right now. That's cool. I love history, too, but again, it's subtle things, this television. In a way, to me, that's beyond just the big sit down. It's beyond the feature story, but it's.
- [98:23]
Austin Rivers
There's no Bob Costas just sitting on a perch, just like, this is why this game is important. Right? I'm going to tell you why this game is important.
- [98:31]
Raja Bell
I mean, Joel says we know all this stuff, but are we sure everybody.
- [98:34]
Austin Rivers
Knows all this stuff? I don't think we know this stuff, Joel.
- [98:36]
Logan Murdoch
Well, I mean, that's probably we as.
- [98:38]
Austin Rivers
A collective me, all three of us know it, but I don't think we as a. Because the NFL does a. We go to six different sideline reporters before for a Regular season game that's the big game of the week.
- [98:50]
Logan Murdoch
I mean, I, I, I think that NBA fans are more engaged with NBA stuff than casual fans. Right? But yeah, I think you guys are right that, yeah, we, maybe not. But I guess what I would say here then is that, man, and I think the deal that the NBA got shows this. We all sort of over exaggerate the importance of any individual regular season game. They're paying, those people are paying for the playoffs and the NBA Finals. Right?
- [99:19]
Austin Rivers
Like that's, Whose fault is that though, right? Like we, Is that the, is that our fault as consumers or is it the league's fault for telling us that it didn't matter while also speaking out of both sides of their mouth and saying, oh wait, actually it does matter because the fans are mad that they can't watch their favorite player playing Portland on the second night of a back to back.
- [99:37]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, I mean, I did. It's just, that's a, I think it's, everybody is to blame if there's such a thing as blame. But I mean, I guess what I would would say is that I don't remember from my youth. Every individual game matter. Like, sometimes I look up, oh man, Rockets played the Bucs last night. Okay. I read, you know, I got it. And so, you know, I feel like a lot for a lot of us, like, this is sort of like romanticizing like what the 80s and 90s were because I swear there were not a lot of people watching the Vancouver Grizzlies play against the.
- [100:08]
Austin Rivers
Also people talking about how they hate shooting threes, how they hate team shooting threes. When Steph first came on the, on the scene, everybody was like, yo, this is dope. We ain't gotta watch, we don't gotta watch the paint being packed there by six dudes. Like, it's great, bro.
- [100:22]
Logan Murdoch
When I was at Slate, we worked on a podcast that was sort of a follow up to the Last Dance. It was called the Last Last Dance and It was about MJ's years with the Wizards.
- [100:30]
Austin Rivers
That was a great pod.
- [100:31]
Logan Murdoch
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. I was like, it was a lot of fun. I'm proud of it. And I had to go looking at clips from the early aughts, bro. Pacers versus the Pistons, the, you know, the Wizards versus the Cavs in 2002. Come on, man. Nobody.
- [100:49]
Austin Rivers
Or you look at the Last dance and it's 82 to like 87 with 45 seconds to go.
- [100:54]
Logan Murdoch
I mean, and that was like a high scoring game. Like there were A lot of games. It was like in a 67, 68, three minutes ago in the fourth quarter. Like, I mean, yeah, say anyway, I.
- [101:05]
Austin Rivers
I want to, I want to stay on ESPN really quickly because I think they're in a fascinating position because I think a lot of this has to do with, with. And I know you guys talk about a lot about ESPN and fascinating y'all be going in. It's great. But ESPN is in a great, is in an interesting position because it treats NBA like a third class citizen. Like, it's like we got it because like we can have it, right? They don't really put any resources into it. They don't really care. You ask anybody on ESPN who works at espn they're like, yeah, I mean, no, it's not, it's not big game, right? It's, it's something for ESPN to say like, hey, we have, we can build up the subscriber fee and hit you over the head over it, right? But you would think if they don't care that they wouldn't go out and make a move like getting inside the NBA and licensing it, right? Like that shows me like, oh, they're locked in. They, they don't like what their product is right now with the Countdown, right? And I think a lot of people have said like, oh, we don't like this Countdown product. We're just going to watch the game. ESPN was like, no, we're going to try to, we're going to get the best in studio team there is and we're going to license it now. We'll talk about Charles Barkley in a second, but we're going to do this. What do you guys both have ESPN ties? I just know people that go that, that work there. What do you, where is ESPN in all of this? And do they have like a punch? Obviously they have more than a bunch of stance, but do they have a, a stake in this? Are they going to, are you think they're going to go all out for NBA or is it going to continue being like, oh, this is just one of our many entities that we have and College Football's better, NFL's better. We're going to put resources that. But we're just going to tell people that we have the NBA. It's just a vanity.
- [102:47]
Raja Bell
I would love to see the tab for what they're paying for inside the NBA because we know Charles probably just got a raise since he did that whole. I'm not sure I'm going over there to you. I'm not sure.
- [102:58]
Austin Rivers
Phenomenal negotiating tactics from our guy Chuck. Unbelievable.
- [103:02]
Raja Bell
He is the absolute best at that. So that's, that's pretty amazing. Um, you know, I mean, let's talk about Inside the NBA for a second. As you said, they went out and got the best studio show. This has been an ESPN tactic lately. Who are the best announcers? Joe Buck and Troyman.
- [103:16]
Howard Beck
Great.
- [103:17]
Raja Bell
Let's go buy them from Fox. Who's got the biggest podcast? Pat McAfee.
- [103:21]
Howard Beck
Great.
- [103:21]
Raja Bell
We're going to buy that. Put that on the air. I think what's interesting about it is then how that fits into ESPN culture, which is something you teased earlier. I remember when the whole Daryl Morey thing went down a couple years ago, the inside cast happened to be out here a couple days later. And I was asking, I think it was Ernie Johnson. I said, hey, you know, you had a complicated discussion, like, right. Like, this is, this is something that is. Everybody is handling, like, you know, nuclear material. Did you guys have a show meeting beforehand to just kind of suss out what you're going to say? He's like, no, we just went on there and let.
- [103:57]
Austin Rivers
Quick aside, quick aside. I, I don't think. I think I've pivot. I think I've soft launched this a lot. But I used to intern at Turner back in the day and so I wrote for summer 2016, and I remember, like, them, like, giving us a tour and them telling us, this is the TV where Charles watches Scandal during. During NBA. During NBA Nights.
- [104:21]
Logan Murdoch
Unbelievable.
- [104:22]
Austin Rivers
And this is where Sedge and says does this, and this is where Ernie actually does the work to make sure this is a great show.
- [104:28]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, man. I mean, I think the thing is, is that we don't tune into Inside the NBA. And I'm not going to go there just yet. But we don't tune in because of the basketball analysis. We tune in because of the relationships and how entertaining they are. And I think that, you know, if you're counting on ESPN buying them to do the sort of storytelling that we were talking about previously, then we're probably going to all be disappointed. But if you just want to create a fun vibe around the game, right, and make it seem like a little bit of an event, then I think that this is moving in the right direction. And I also would just say, like, I mean, you mentioned what ESPN is doing. I think they're still sort of reeling from the. I hate to bring this up because it's not comfortable. The Rachel Nichols, Maria Taylor stuff. Like, I don't. I think that, like, they may have Thought they had a plan for what NBA Countdown and all that other stuff was going to be. And it just kind of, you know.
- [105:22]
Austin Rivers
It was so hastily done. Right.
- [105:24]
Logan Murdoch
Like still figuring out. Yeah.
- [105:26]
Austin Rivers
And I think people also got to remember the context of the times we were in at that point. Like, it wasn't like just the cut and dry thing. There was a. And the aftermath of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor. It was just. It was a different type of ecosystem that you can't really explain in hindsight. You know what I mean? It was one of those types.
- [105:43]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, and I mean, and to be fair, I feel like ESPN's NBA coverage has been. They've been tinkering with it and people have been complaining about it for a long time. Like just you go, you know, with Magic being involved, our boss being involved, you know, like, people have always had their critiques about this stuff and how it could be better. And I don't think that's going to change. Even if ESPN did better and put more resources into it and moved NBA to the forefront, I still think that is going to be a part of the story. But when you bring in inside the NBA, you're at least saying, well, we want to make this an event though. Like, we want to, we want to. We want to make this a fun experience for people. And that may be the thing that has been missing over these years at least.
- [106:27]
Austin Rivers
Brian, do you think that. Let's go to the Chuck part of this because this is very important, obviously. Right. Because if Chuck doesn't go to espn, they have. ESPN still has a problem. Where do you think he. What do you think that he is going to ultimately decide? Because I ultimately think he's going to. He's going to get a massive deal, an unprecedented deal with ESPN and they're not going to make him do anything but inside, like. And it's going to be genius. And we're all going to be applauding him for winning again.
- [106:57]
Raja Bell
I'm sorry, I misunderstood because I thought he was retiring several times over the last two years. He was walking away from television forever. And he would entertain no thoughts of a lucrative new contract with ESPN or anybody else.
- [107:10]
Austin Rivers
My favorite part of that is when he told, I think was Andrew Merchant. He told him straight up, Yeah, I make $10 million and this is what I make sense as how much I make. And they tried to match and did it. And this happened. And that was my favorite part of the whole thing is him just saying his salary and not Give a fuck.
- [107:26]
Raja Bell
It's unbelievable. But here's what's going to happen. So I have a slightly different take than you do. I think he's going to get a gigantic deal. Probably going to start with a 2. He's going to have the deal only be to do inside the NBA once a week, just like his current gig. But he will also answer every phone call like he does now. So when Scott Van Pelt calls for the pod, when STEPHEN A. We just absolutely need you to wake up early in Phoenix this morning. I mean, is there any doubt that Charles Barkley will be on those things? I mean, like the funniest thing he said during this fake retirement tour over the last year is, I'm not doing any more interviews. And I'm like, okay, but it's going.
- [108:05]
Austin Rivers
To be him that does it. Like, there's, I've tried to get Charles Barkley on real ones. It's so hard. It's very hard to get him because he doesn't go through Turner pr. It's like, it's, he got to like you and he, you just call him up, straight up.
- [108:18]
Raja Bell
But look at, look at Joe and Troy. Like, how much, like, are they friendly to the rest of ESPN Universe? You know, they're on SportsCenter after a Monday night game with Scott Van Pelt doing things. I'm sure they're on call, you know, to come do something, but really they're doing football and then they're going home. They're not, they're not sitting there being like, oh, we need you for get up on Tuesday. That's not happening.
- [108:39]
Austin Rivers
Barkley, like, fuck you on the golf course. Bye. I mean, if he answers the phone at all.
- [108:43]
Logan Murdoch
And Barkley has already said, man, they're not going, I mean, he has said this on camera. They're not going to have me over at ESPN and work me like they do everybody else. You know what I mean? He's made that clear. So, yeah, like he's, he'll, he'll be available and he'll be a friendly voice from time to time, but they are not. I don't think we'll have to count on him being on TV as much as Stephen.
- [109:02]
Austin Rivers
A for instance, question for you guys. What have you guys thought about the Adam Silver and the Adam Silver in all this? Right? Because in the last few years, I feel like there was just an outright, just push to do the most gimmicky stuff possible to sell the league for the, to the highest bidder in a way that I don't Think needed to be happened. Needed to happen. Right. Like you have the in season tournament which I think they have has been a debacle over the last two years. I think we could say that if you're. If after your second year you're already talking about moving, you're moving the, the. The. The host city. I think you have a problem. What do you think the future has their ex. The experimentation of the game gone too far? I'll start with Brian and I want to hear Joel's as well. Just from a consumer standpoint and watching it and you can even throw some anecdotal evidence into that. What have you thought about the gimmickiness of the last few years from the NBA when it seems like they don't actually have to do that?
- [110:02]
Raja Bell
I mean I think the. It's very gimmicky from the in season tournament to the play in game which is reintroduced some all time terrible teams to the postseason. Do I think it's much more gimmicky than the NFL having Black Friday football and having Christmas Day football on a Wednesday? No, I mean that's kind of.
- [110:20]
Austin Rivers
I think also because it, because I think the other thing is it comes from a place of weakness from the NBA. Like the NFL is coming to mash on motherfuckers. They're like, yeah, we're going to. We're going to. You think you like Christmas? Have you seen Beyonce? She's going to perform. That's true.
- [110:34]
Raja Bell
No, that's a good point. There is a little bit of a flailing quality to it. Like yeah, we got this new thing. The 10 seed in the each conference. They're going to get the postseason two. Yeah, it is. But I think, I just think that's the way of the world now.
- [110:48]
Austin Rivers
Right?
- [110:48]
Raja Bell
You create things gimmicks, to use your word. I think that's exactly the right word because you think you can sell them. You think you can slice off a different little piece and sell it to somebody else or create a thing that people are interested in.
- [111:00]
Logan Murdoch
You don't like to play in. You guys don't like to play.
- [111:03]
Austin Rivers
I like to play in. Personally, I do not like this season tournament. I think it adds an unnecessary game, an unnecessary bit of travel and at a time when consumers aren't necessarily watching NBA anyway, you know, like the, the opening night is actually Christmas day. Like that's what it is. Like invest in that.
- [111:19]
Logan Murdoch
Right. I, I tried to pretend that I was going to care about the in season tournament and I just. It didn't hold this year. And then.
- [111:25]
Austin Rivers
And one other thing, you're also, like, you're also betting that your stars are going to make it every year to that. Like, they were fortunate enough to get LeBron and Giannis the first time and get the Lakers there. But, like, that's not a given every.
- [111:37]
Logan Murdoch
Well, I mean, this year, after they won it, they said, let's not celebrate because we found out that this doesn't matter, right? And so I was like. I kind of felt like when that happened, I was like, oh, okay. Like that even the messaging among the teams, the team that literally won the in season tournament was like, yeah, like, we're not going to make a big deal out of this because we know that it ultimately doesn't matter. And I don't know if that's their fault, the NBA's fault, or if it's the fan's fault, because we've all said that the only thing that matters is the postseason. Like, we all. We all have sort of moved in that direction with the game, and so it's just kind of hard to, you know, to.
- [112:11]
Austin Rivers
It's like, it's like what I'm dealing with within a. Like, I love women's sports, right? But it's what I'm dealing with, like, the conundrum I'm having with unrivaled, right? Like, why. Why should I care about this championship if y'all don't care about this championship, right? Like, it's cool to have Sabrina Isatu on the same team, but like, y'all dipping in and out and like, you guys aren't really caring about this trophy. And I feel like the same thing about the NBA in this instance, like, it's a free trip to Vegas, but, like, ain't nobody tripping off of this. Like, it's not.
- [112:40]
Logan Murdoch
It's hard to make people care about sports, man. You know, I mean, it's the same reason spring football leagues, they keep trying and every. The first week they'll be like, oh, man, there's surprisingly good ratings for the AFL and the usfl. And then by week two, people are like, I don't know who the. The Houston Renegades are.
- [112:58]
Pasha Hagigi
You know, it has to be.
- [113:00]
Austin Rivers
It has. You have to turn it into an institution. And yes, the hard part about turning something institution is it takes time. You're going to lose a lot of money, but you're gonna. It's gonna. But you got to do it through decades. And I just. And I.
- [113:12]
Logan Murdoch
Well, that's the argument on behalf of the end season tournament, right? Like 10 years from now that it's going to look and feel a lot different than it does now. We're going to go through this slow buildup where people are like, man, I don't even want to watch that shit. Who? Giannis. Don't even care. You know. But maybe we will get there.
- [113:29]
Raja Bell
Can I push back on the idea real quick that we have to care about things? Second biggest story in America last year other than the election was Mike Tyson versus Jake Paul, which is the most meaningless thing I've ever seen in my life. Everybody tuned in for that. Like that was the most gimmicky, ridiculous thing ever.
- [113:44]
Logan Murdoch
It was gimmicky. But people, people thought that it mattered though. People really wanted to see if Mike Tyson could fight. And people were like, oh man, Jake Paul ain't gonna be able to take no p. They wanted to see Jake.
- [113:53]
Raja Bell
Paul get his ass kicked too. That was like a thing. They were, they were excited by the way.
- [113:57]
Austin Rivers
That's. But that's a difference though because that's a one time thing. That's not an institution is. Which is what the. The NBA is trying to build year in and year out.
- [114:04]
Raja Bell
I love that you guys are for the play in. By the way, the 36 and 46 Atlanta Hawks who got into play in last year, thank goodness we recognize their achievement. The 39 and 43 Chicago Bulls. Who will ever forget those great franchises? I'm so glad you didn't Mike Tirico to do. Do some storytelling about them. That would, that'd be fantastic.
- [114:23]
Austin Rivers
My. My thing, my thing with this is that I, I'm really just. My thing with this is right. And I think there's a perception thing that. I think all of this in this whole conversation is the NBA just has a perception problem isn't going bad for the NBA. We just think it is, right? Like, like for instance, I was talking to. I was talking to Howard Becky today actually we're prepping for the show tomorrow. Who we're actually recording this on a Monday, not a Tuesday. I was talking to Howard Beck about, about Adam Silver Talking about the 10 minute quarters, right. And to be fair to Adam Silver, it was just a question of what's the wackiest idea you guys have thought of, right? But it, it's. It. The perception of Adam Silver would do such a thing just caused a news cycle that was so unnecessary for the impact NBA, right? And I feel like they perpetually in bad news cycle. They're like the Democrats, right? They're just perpetually just in bad, bad.
- [115:19]
Raja Bell
News cycle that might be unfair to the NBA.
- [115:20]
Austin Rivers
But please, why. Why do you think is from a perception standpoint, do you think the bad headlines when it comes to ratings or anything. And beyond that, the NBA can lose traction in terms of the America's social consciousness because they're number two right now in terms of sports. I think they're unequivocally there. But you got college football coming on their heels, you got MLB coming on their heels. You have a lot of different types of. The W is gaining traction. Same with college women's basketball. Do you think that the NBA has a. There's a slippery slope there to where they can slip from number two in our American consciousness?
- [116:01]
Logan Murdoch
I mean, I think that's certainly possible. But I think, you know, the thing about Adam Silver kind of connected back to your previous question. The thing about Adam Silver that is amazing is that we can say all this. The league is struggling. It's in a bad news cycle and people ponied up. They paid triple what their TV deal was the last time. The NFL didn't even triple their meteorites deal the last time. Like, they doubled it. And I bet the NFL is like, man, what the hell did Adam Silver, you know, we could have got. Are you saying triple was, you know.
- [116:34]
Austin Rivers
They dirty macking on Adam Silver right now?
- [116:35]
Logan Murdoch
You know, they hating on what's up bro?
- [116:37]
Austin Rivers
Yeah, cbs.
- [116:42]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. Yeah. And so like, obviously at like the people that are putting money into this stuff, they see something or they see either these negative headlines are valuable or they see past them and they say it. The fundamentals are fine. Like, the NBA has a rabid, engaged, dedicated fan base. And it doesn't matter that the casuals are not always tuning in. These people are going to show up and they're going to pay for games, they're going to buy jerseys, they're going to do that stuff. They're a motivated group of consumers. And so I think that's like above everything, if you're thinking about Emma Silver that way. And I mean, it's not my job to care about how much money he gets for the league, but if you're. That's how he's judged in his world. And it seems like by that metric he's a success and so is the league.
- [117:27]
Austin Rivers
Then. Brian, it feels like 1999, 2000 all over again. It just feels like we're in a transition, right? Like we're just in the neck. Like we're in the. The whatever our version of the post Jordan era is right where it was like, we're just Finding the star. Also, there was a transition in media rights deals around that time. Right. In 2003, when ESPN got the rights. But I got. I want to pose a question to end on this and for each of you, and I want you guys to answer the question. What can the NBA do to dominate the next era of streaming that we're about to get into? And what can they do to fuck it up?
- [118:06]
Raja Bell
I'm so glad you brought the. Brought up the whole 99 thing, because whenever I hear the NBA ratings talk, I'm always like. And I see the list of reasons that people are throwing out there, including, like, LeBron and stuff are getting old. Where's our next star? You know, when's our next star? I'm always like, what? What do you want the NBA to do? Yeah, you know, or you want the NBA to be like, going to AAU leagues and be like, hey, guys, we need the next MJ or LeBron. I know you're. They're not making their way to the NBA. Like, that's happening anyway. Like, there's. There's nothing that doesn't make any sense to me. Like, what. Why would. What would. Like, what are they going to do? Like, they're going to. They have the basketball players there, given. And we have amazing basketball players right now. So to answer your question, what can they do? I think the question, and Joel hit on this earlier, is figure out a way to make basketball games that are currently skipped by a huge portion of the population into events. Find a way to do that. And there may be many events. They're not going to be Chiefs, Bills on Sunday afternoon. That's not what you're going for. But figure out a way to make those into things, you know, now you have to go through a lot to do that, right? Load management. You saw the ESPN picked the Lakers game this weekend, and neither Luca or LeBron played. Like, God, what a dog that must have been. I didn't watch.
- [119:26]
Austin Rivers
Or you guys talk about it. Having Hubie Brown, like, the celebration of the game on fucking Super Bowl Sunday. What are we doing?
- [119:32]
Logan Murdoch
That was so sad. Yeah, man. Yeah, that was sad.
- [119:35]
Raja Bell
That was absolutely wild. What can they do to screw it up? I think I would say let transactions gobble the play on the court. I would say there's a lot. There's a lot of interest to be gotten from transactions. And by the way, we didn't mention this earlier, but part of the reason transactions are so powerful, because the biggest stars in the NBA change teams a lot. In the last year, few Years, right? Luka Doncic just got traded. LeBron's LeBron ad.
- [120:03]
Austin Rivers
We can, by the way, just want to say sorry to all your friends in Dallas. Brian. I mean, Joel is. Joel is Crip walking on the grave right now.
- [120:11]
Raja Bell
You should have seen the smile he had on the pod the next day.
- [120:15]
Logan Murdoch
I just can't believe y'all did it.
- [120:16]
Raja Bell
Thank you for, like, all that Adam Silver says about the. To use the E word one more time engagement. You find a way to drive people to actual basketball because one, that's how networks make money. That's how you're going to, though your partners are going to make money. But two, that's going to seed a whole new generation of fans. And I also agree with Joel's earlier point. That's really hard right now because there's a million other things in the world and the NFL is the only thing immune to our media universe right now.
- [120:43]
Logan Murdoch
What can they do? Get better? So they're going to get a lot of valuable viewership information once they start streaming, right? So they're going to learn a lot more about like, micro targeting consumers and fans, and that's going to be really valuable. So I think that, like, they probably are still, like, we don't know what this new environment is going to be like. We don't still really know. We don't have all the data. Like, having your, the base of your work on linear cable means that you just don't have a lot of information about the people watching. So they're going to have a lot more of that. So I think that that is going to help them. But what can they do? You know what, you know what gift the NBA got that Luca is in la. I mean, what a, what a tremendous benefit. Like, the only thing that would have been better is if, like, they had traded Wimby to the Knicks or something like that. You know what I mean? Like, that is.
- [121:30]
Austin Rivers
Here's another thing, though. You talking. I have to bring race into it. But you talked about this on the podcast earlier, like, having a white superstar leave Dallas, but then you're bringing a white superstar, generational white talent to Los Angeles. To the Los Angeles Lakers. Sorry.
- [121:43]
Logan Murdoch
To the Lakers. To the Lakers. The Lakers got what the Celtics used to have, you know, and so, like, that is going to be amazing. And it, like, that is really, really going to work for them. And I also think that, like, I don't know, like, Wimby is going to be, you know, watching his development or we're going to. Eventually his teams are going to start making the playoffs and people are going to get, are going to.
- [122:01]
Austin Rivers
I tell you what, Wemby, when he comes to town, no matter what is an event, like he's one of those types of dudes. He's coming to the Bay in a couple months and I literally can't wait.
- [122:09]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, yo, I can't wait. Like, you know I'm gonna be living in D.C. i mean, I know those tickets in the wood that wags might be tough. I don't know if the Wizards man pitch a story.
- [122:17]
Austin Rivers
Go to the game, Joel. Shit.
- [122:18]
Logan Murdoch
All right, that's right, that's right. I forgot I could be doing that. I don't know. I could use a press pass. But you asked what could go wrong. I think that. And I've been thinking about this a little bit. They need to figure out a way to get their arms around the amateur climate and in the, in the country. And I think it helps. The NCAA is like has the nil and like guys are going to be able to start participating in revenue sharing. So maybe that will help build stars. But like Cooper Flag, you know, he should be a huge. He should be a Zion esque star.
- [122:51]
Austin Rivers
Yeah.
- [122:51]
Logan Murdoch
Right now he's not. I don't even know how many people are watching Cooper Flag. But like to me, yeah. And I just kind of feel like that's the sign of a, of a problem that that guy again, a white American superstar. That dude is dope. When he played against the US Olympic.
- [123:10]
Austin Rivers
Team, I was at that practice, it was insane. I was like going off like I knew Cooper Flag was on the court, but you had that. Who the fuck is this?
- [123:18]
Logan Murdoch
Yes. Like that dude is crazy and he can ball his ass off. And like he is, I mean not even by the standards of Zion Williamson a few years ago. He's sort of relatively anonymous on the national scene. So I don't know what the NBA can do to help with that. But like they have a role and they have an interest in promoting the amateur levels of the game. And I think that that is something that. Whether they. To be more collaborative with the ncaa, maybe, you know, the G League obviously where the G League elite team, that program didn't work out right.
- [123:48]
Austin Rivers
The ignite.
- [123:49]
Logan Murdoch
Ignite. Ignite. I'm sorry, yeah. G League ignite. That failed. But they, they, they clearly are searching for a way to do something with that, that level of player. And I think that that's, that's the next key. Like who's going to be following up after wimby. Like the NBA has to think about that stuff. Who's going to be following up after Luka? Jokic looks like he's 44. Right. Even though he's balling his ass off. So they need. They need to be involved in that pipeline some way, I think.
- [124:15]
Austin Rivers
Fascinating discussion. We could have talked for two more hours, but I know you guys got to go. That was Brian Curtis and Joel Anderson of the press box. The J School be tapping with them on the press box feed. We got to do this again sometime. This is a blast. Thanks, you guys.
- [124:29]
Logan Murdoch
Please have it.
- [124:30]
Raja Bell
Well, it's a home and home. So you got to come over to Jason. This is what needs to happen.
- [124:34]
Austin Rivers
Now hit me up. I'm ready to go. I'm ready to go.
- [124:37]
Raja Bell
Here we go, Joel.
- [124:38]
Logan Murdoch
All right, we got people. Put you on the list right now.
- [124:40]
Austin Rivers
Let's do it.
- [124:52]
Pasha Hagigi
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