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The Ringer NBA Show
Mailbag: Ingram Extension, Russ for MIP, All-NBA in 2030, and Much More | Group Chat
01:23:35
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- [00:00]
Waz
Hi everyone, it's Amy Poehler and I'm launching a new podcast called Good Hang.
- [00:05]
Rob Mahoney
In preparation for that, I asked some.
- [00:07]
Waz
Of my friends to send in some videos and give me some advice. Just be yourself and the guests will come.
- [00:13]
Rob Mahoney
Don't be the celebrity that this is their, like, sixth thing they're doing.
- [00:16]
Justin Verrier
I love true crime and cooking podcasts.
- [00:19]
Waz
Is there any way you could combine the two? Well, everyone has an opinion and a.
- [00:24]
Rob Mahoney
Podcast, so join me for Good Hang.
- [00:27]
Waz
It's rough out there. We're just trying to lighten it up a little.
- [00:31]
Amy Poehler
This episode is supported by State Farm. Man, I remember when I first got into a car accident, it was pure frustration because I did not have State Farm. And now that I do have State Farm, it is an exclamation of pure joy. But the only words that you need to remember are like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. State Farm has options to fit your unique insurance needs, meaning you can talk to your agent to choose the coverage you need. Have coverage options to protect the things you value most, file a claim claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and even reach a real person when you need to talk to someone. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Learn more@state farm.com this episode is brought.
- [01:13]
Kirk Henderson
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- [02:08]
Justin Verrier
Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Rob Mahoney. That's not just a barrier. This is. You know, we don't have Justin today, but we do have my. My only true and loyal friend in the world. Big Wazwazz. How are you doing today?
- [02:20]
Waz
I'm doing good, man. I feel like a Somali pirate right now. I'm in charge of this shit now. I'm the captain of this ship now, baby.
- [02:28]
Justin Verrier
We are seizing the means of the podcast, that's for sure.
- [02:31]
Waz
That's right. Damn right.
- [02:32]
Justin Verrier
We're Also leading into All Star Weekend was how are you prepared physically, mentally, spiritually? You're coming out to San Francisco. We're going to see each other in a matter of days. In the flesh, are you prepared for the All Star experience?
- [02:44]
Waz
Listen, the last two years were in Salt Lake City, in Indianapolis. God bless those two cities, but Indianapolis particularly. It was cold as hell. It was insane. I just checked my weather app right before we got on. 50s low in the 40s. I'm golden, baby. I'm good. I don't need long johns. I don't gotta wear extra undershirts. I'm good to go. I'm happy. Gonna, you know, run into a bunch of friends from the NBA world ready for the weekend.
- [03:13]
Justin Verrier
I just gotta warn you, though, A San Francisco 50 is not a normal 50. It's gonna feel like 32 when it's 50 at some point. It's gonna be murky and foggy Some of those days. I, I mean, just one of the most confounding weather cities in the world. And I look forward to seeing our media brethren in addition to the broader NBA ranks, reckoning with that, reckoning with the realities of San Francisco city life.
- [03:35]
Waz
It ain't gonna be indie.
- [03:37]
Justin Verrier
That's true.
- [03:37]
Waz
I'll tell you that much.
- [03:38]
Justin Verrier
That's true. But shout out to indie. Shout out to everyone who came to our live show last year at the Indie All Star Game. Those are the real ones. But, Woz, you also soft launched an idea before the pod today about how to jazz up All Star Weekend a little bit. In particular, the idea of WWE ing All Star. And this is an idea that as soon as the words came out of your mouth, I'm like, how is this not the billion dollar idea that the NBA needs?
- [04:02]
Waz
We need to WWE ify the tournament. I mean, excuse me, All Star Saturday, specifically the tournament. Could be the tournament. Whatever, Adam Silver. We get it, whatever. We're going to do a little round robin, whatever. But All Star Saturday night, where we like announce Matt McClung and a bunch of other G leaguers as the Dunkers, and then, you know, somebody's about, they're warming up and they're about to do their first dunk and then the freaking music starts and then it's, oh, my God, is that Anthony Edwards? Anthony Edwards is going to be in the dunk contest this year.
- [04:36]
Justin Verrier
Blah, blah, blah.
- [04:37]
Waz
It's his first time. He's one of the most electrifying Dunkers ever. Blah, blah, blah. Then next is John Moran. Then next is Zion. And then we just Surprise him. Like every other, you know, like how WWE does it. The Rock barely ever shows up, but like, when he does, it's like this crazy big, you know, the crowd goes nuts. Same for Steph Curry in the three point contest this year.
- [05:00]
Justin Verrier
That's a gimme. Like that one is so easy.
- [05:03]
Waz
Surprise the audience. It wasn't announced. They just see Steph come out and be like, nah, I'm ready to win this thing. Like, let's do that. Let's get this thing to get the people talking and excited and feel like they're going to see something they've never seen before. So yeah, man, WWE knows how to put an event on. They know how to get their fans going. And I think this would be something to get the people going.
- [05:25]
Justin Verrier
Yeah, and that's a sustainable thing too, right? Like there's one way to bring people into All Star Saturday and it's to put and Edwards or Steph Curry on the, on the board to begin with and say, you can come watch these guys. But in some ways it's even more powerful if you instill the idea that anything could happen. The element of surprise. Like, anyone could walk into the dunk contest, anyone could jump into the three point contest, and the best players in the world are already here. I really feel like this is right there for the NBA's takeover.
- [05:52]
Waz
Or like, you know, like Aunt Edwards is like sitting courtside pretending to have his camcorder, like the old school NBA stuff. And a guy goes for a dunk and he blocks it.
- [06:03]
Justin Verrier
He's like, it's my turn to actually.
- [06:04]
Waz
Do a dunk right now. Are you kidding me? He gets up out of nowhere. Like, come on, man, let's surprise the people.
- [06:11]
Justin Verrier
We spend a lot of time talking about the sacred nature of sports. Oh, you can't change the 82 game schedule. It's too important to the record books. Oh, you can't change the playoff format, the regular season season format. We all acknowledge that this shit, among all the other shit, is fake. We have created All Star Weekend within a child's game, within a sport. Let people do weird and exciting things. I, I, I think this is a wonderful premise that we should take straight to the commissioner. This weekend we're just gonna have to like corner him in a hallway somewhere and we're gonna make the change that we wanna see in the world.
- [06:43]
Waz
Or we get, you know, we get even get spicy. We get a Kyle Kuzma Tyler hero. One on one game. The battle of the X's. No, come on, man, come proper fication is too.
- [06:54]
Justin Verrier
I'm.
- [06:54]
Waz
Listen, I'm ready for anything.
- [06:56]
Justin Verrier
You have officially lost me and maybe lost the plot, but I'm sure there's a lot of people out there for whom that idea resonates very strongly. One idea that resonated with me very strongly this week was we've talked a lot about Brandon Ingram over the last couple weeks, particularly since he got traded to the Toronto Raptors. It is no secret to the frequent recurring group chat listeners that we are not the biggest Brandon Ingram fans in the world. Did that stop the Raptors from giving him a three year, $120 million extension? No, it did not. What was, what was your reaction to seeing that news given? Like, I know we. It was kind of baked in to begin with the expectation that he would probably be a Raptor for the near term. But how did it hit you?
- [07:38]
Waz
It felt like the latest kind of humble pie deal. Remember before the season started we talked about Jalen Green's three year deal where it's like, he's obviously not quite a max rookie extension guy, but he's not so bad that the Rockets don't think he can outperform whatever this 33 million is this year. So like they kind of met in the middle. Not a five year extension, but a three year player option after two. This felt like the exact same thing, but for a veteran, right? This idea like, no, you are not a $200 million player. You have not proven yourself to be that. And maybe in New Orleans you could say to that management group like, yo, I got us to the playoffs and in that first round where we showed some spunk, I was the best player and blah, blah, blah, I earned this deal. Maybe you could have tried and you did try to persuade them to that effect and you failed and so they traded you. But in Toronto, you couldn't make that argument that you were worth a $200 million extension, coupled with the fact that the market is going to be super stingy next summer is basically going to be the nets that can open up like $40 million. And also to pat ourselves on the back here, we kind of predicted this would be the deal, a sort of two, two, two to three years or, you know, two years with the player option, 35 to $40 million per. And that's what it ended up being.
- [09:05]
Justin Verrier
It is what it ended up being. I mean, I am inclined to want to see what the Raptors see, want to get on their wavelength as far as like what, what is the process explanation for bringing in a Brandon Ingram for Making this kind of value play when as we outlined in the aftermath of the deadline, not a great fit for their style of play, not necessarily the most cogent fit next to Scotty Barnes. They're going to have to figure out a way to make it work. The best I can come up with one. There's just an obvious need for scoring period. Go to scoring, any kind of scoring. The fact that Brandon Ingram is a guy who needs the ball in his hands maybe isn't as much of an issue given that he might be need to be the end point of a lot of possessions and they need him to be. So that's fine. And I get it also from the perspective of as a franchise, if you've basically made the decision that you cannot be a big time free agent draw, that this is how you bring in really talented players is you find sort of distressed assets on the market. Guys who are good, are talented but haven't worked out for whatever reason, bring them in late in their deals, get them extensions, resign them using Bird rights, restricted free agency. Whatever kind of means are available to you on that with that given player. I get it. I think I'm just fumbling up against the wall of the Pelicans just spent the last several years figuring out if they could trade this guy and if so, to what other team and for how much. And the answers were very, very underwhelming. And that was with Brandon ingram making like $33 million a year rather than closer to $40 million a year if he's going to be on this new deal. And I don't, I don't think even the more optimistic Raptors faithful would say Brandon Ingram is going to be an integral part of the next great Raptors team. Then what is the sort of intermediary path here given that we know that Brandon Ingram's trade market is not all that.
- [10:55]
Waz
I, I, I don't know. I think the only thing you're hoping for if you're Raptors fans is professional pride. And you know this guy was obviously spurned by the Pelicans by one, not two, just like jettisoning him for basically nothing. And this guy comes back with something to prove with a chip on his shoulder to show everybody that he was worth what he was asking for and that he's going to make his new team happy. I think that's all you could hope for.
- [11:22]
Justin Verrier
I think it is not what you want to hear coming off of a massive extension. Ultimately too, we need to reiterate what the Raptors gave up to trade for Ingram is not overwhelming, right? It's Bruce Brown, who was going to be a free agent anyway, Kelly Olenek, who's a perfectly fine player and a 2026 first that was probably going to be in the 20s. Ultimately not unreasonable to trade for a player this talented and a scorer this talented. It's just I, I still strain to see the vision. I do hope that he has that sort of professional pride that you were talking about. And we've seen great stretches and great moments from Brandon Ingram. We're all, we're all waiting to see it come together. It's just we've been waiting for a long time when the game tips off the NBA action is just beginning on FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook, because FanDuel is your home for NBA Live betting. So even if you miss the first few minutes of the game or want to bet on a fourth quarter comeback, you can make your picks from the first whistle until the final buzzer. Plus, you can even combine your live bets into a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout. However you want to play, now is the perfect time to join as we're looking ahead to All Star Weekend. I want to put one out there for the absolute sickos who are looking to bet on the Skills Challenge on All Star Saturday. Right now, the spurs are not the favorites to to win the Skills Challenge. Chris Paul, Victor Webanyama the most talented pairing, perhaps, the most skilled pairing, perhaps, and most importantly, the best passing duo of any of the teams in the Skills Challenge field. I think they're going to take it. They have plus 200 odds right now to win the Skills. That's your bet. New FanDuel customers get started with $150 in bonus bets. If your first $5 bet wins, just visit FanDuel.com Ringernba to join today. That's FanDuel.com RingernBA for your shot at $150 in bonus bets. Make every moment more with FanDuel. Official sports betting partner of the NBA must be 21 plus in present in select states or 18 plus in present in D.C. first online real money wager only $5 first deposit required. Bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus bets which expire seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling problem call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com youm want control of your financial future and Schwab knows that. That's why when it comes to managing your wealth we give you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice.
- [13:45]
Waz
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- [13:47]
Justin Verrier
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- [13:55]
Waz
And 247 live help because at Schwab.
- [13:58]
Justin Verrier
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- [14:05]
Rob Mahoney
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- [15:57]
Justin Verrier
Goes though, waz you and I don't have a lot of it to the point that every time Justin leaves the podcast, we do the same thing. A tried and true tradition. We consult the vast Group Chat listenership for their questions. We go full mailbag mode. We turn on the video substitute teacher style, and we let the class teach itself. I'm very excited about the crop of questions we've gotten. Thank you to everyone who emailed us in ringer group chat gmail.com with their questions. Keep them coming. Some of these honestly came from a couple weeks ago. People have been kind of streaming in with interesting thoughts, so I tried to work in some older ones as well, in addition to the crush of new ones that we got after our call for questions this week.
- [16:38]
Waz
Guys, reach out to us. Rob will read your messages.
- [16:44]
Justin Verrier
Unfortunately, it is a character flaw. I will read it. I will read it. So be nice.
- [16:50]
Waz
Be nice.
- [16:51]
Justin Verrier
Send us good and thoughtful questions and you may just end up on the podcast, but Isaiah is very graciously offered to help read us these questions. So, Isaiah, if you could jump in with the first question we have for this week.
- [17:01]
Isaiah Blakely
Yeah, we got a good one. It's from somebody named Justin Verrier.
- [17:06]
Justin Verrier
Oh, okay.
- [17:08]
Isaiah Blakely
His question is for the two less active participants in the creation of the show. If you were to come up with your own idea for an episode rather than rely on JB's hilarious and thought provoking outlines all the time, what would it be?
- [17:23]
Waz
Easy. Mailbag.
- [17:24]
Justin Verrier
Yep.
- [17:27]
Waz
Mailbag is no different than, you know, me listening to wfan, Mike, Francesca and the Mad Dog, letting guys from the Bronx and Queens call in with their Yankees and Giants opinions. Same thing. That's what we're doing here. We're empowering the fan.
- [17:41]
Justin Verrier
Yeah, we're of the people. You know, Justin's up there in his ivory tower dictating terms to not only them, but us. Was.
- [17:48]
Waz
Exactly.
- [17:49]
Justin Verrier
We're out here and we're, we're mingling. We're trying to get some listener feedback. We're trying to really speak to the issues that are important to them. But also we should say literally every week our process is the same, which is mostly crickets from me and was until Justin decides, yeah, pretty much it. We are, in ways, we are very thankful for what we're going to talk about that week.
- [18:10]
Waz
Hold on just one thing, which was a group effort. We are going to bring you our NBA all hard hat team at some point before the season is over. And that is an idea we cooked up together. Justin didn't just pull that one out of his keister. We are going to do that one day and we did do that one idea as a group. So look out for the Hard Hat team.
- [18:33]
Justin Verrier
We did exactly one thing. It hasn't happened yet. Maybe it won't, but I hope it will. I'm honestly, I've been noting some guys since we talked about it that could be eligible for the All Hard Hat team. If you have ideas for who you would like to see on the All Hard Hat team, email us at Ringer group chat@gmail.com. but yeah, look, I appreciate that Justin is such a sicko that even on a long weekend where he is trying to unplug, he cannot help but email in to be a part of the group chat experience. I just, I better not see him tweet one time about Delano Bannon when he's supposed to be on vacation. I. I hope that for him.
- [19:07]
Waz
Let's we can only pray what we.
- [19:10]
Isaiah Blakely
Got Z Next question is from JM with the demise of the Jimmy Butler Heat, the NBA has lost a great feature of the past half decade, a true playoff wildcard. Are there any teams that might be as surprising and effective in the postseason as as the Butler Heat were during their great playoff runs? Could Golden State plus Butler have the same mercurial impact? Or could we get that from another team?
- [19:32]
Justin Verrier
What have you thought of the Jimmy Butler warriors so far?
- [19:35]
Waz
Was I personally love it. Last night's loss notwithstanding. I just like that he brings a whole new element that they haven't had in I don't know how long, which is he just attacks the paint relentlessly and is a magnet for free throws. Uh, it's just an area of the court that the warriors just have not consistently threatened for years now. And having Jimmy be like the person that checks that box which is so important in the playoffs when like a team is like scored seven straight and it feels like it's going downhill to just like get to the line, stop the sort of run of play, like get your bearings about you. Like having somebody who can do that stuff very consistently just match up, hunt and just destroy, you know, certain matchups, man, I just think it's a big deal and I just think temperamentally he just brings another element to the team that just ups everything for them. So I'm personally looking forward to the Jimmy situation. I think it was a great move on their part. I think people were just underrating Jimmy and I'm loving the results so far, as am I.
- [20:41]
Justin Verrier
And I think to to this question from jm they do seem like the natural candidate if you are going to pick a wild Card team. And maybe, look, maybe that's easy on our part. Jimmy Butler is now a part of this group. We have seen that temperament that you cited, not only in revving teams to regular season success, but urging them, pushing them through the playoffs, through upset after upset after upset. And for Golden State to have Jimmy, they have Steph, they have Draymond, they have all these, like, heart of a champion intangibles going on all at once that are exactly the thing that tend to fuel some kind of surprise run. And I think most importantly to the wild card element of this question, too, their rotation is just rickety enough that you wouldn't look at them against any of the top teams in the west and say, oh, Golden State's gonna beat that team. They're definitely gonna beat that team. They're gonna have to prove it. And they're gonna have to prove, I mean, for starters, when Jonathan Kuminga comes back, how this rotation is gonna work together, how the pieces are gonna fit. There's, like, an incremental building where they're figuring out how to play with Jimmy Butler. Then they're going to figure out how to play with a reintegrated Kaminga. They might not really hit their stride until April. And that, to me, is sort of the perfect wild card formula.
- [21:52]
Waz
Yeah, I think so. Another team that I thought about was the Bucks. Just in the sense they've been so Dr. Jekyll and Hyde this the past two years, just so up and down. Like, the idea that you would expect them to walk into any series and kill somebody makes no sense. But they do have Giannis, they do have Dame, who is, like, capable of exploding, you know, and in a short series, you know, you gotta win four games. I think. I think the Bucks are somebody that I would keep my eye on as a team that could just wildly overperform expectations because of the ceiling of their two best players being so freaking high, even in a postseason formula where they could play 43 minutes. And if these guys are playing at their absolute best against any opponent, Giannis and Dame, that's a. You know, that's. That has the potential to do some things. But I do like the Jimmy and Step factor. For sure.
- [22:43]
Justin Verrier
They. The Bucks also do have not a favorable matchup, but if they do end up in that 4, 5 zone, you can see them beating the Pacers or beating the Pistons or the Magic or the Heat or whoever ends up in that other four or five spot. And then they would have a series against the Cavs that would be very difficult. And I think would stretch particularly the style of offense that Cleveland plays, would stretch out the bigs a little bit and would, would really force them to rotate and cover a lot of ground in a way that would be challeng. But I also could totally see my Milwaukee winning that series. That feels like something that's within their power to do. And so if you're figuring out like a reasonable course for these teams, I think, I think that one is right there. Does Minnesota count? You know, they're currently the seventh seed.
- [23:28]
Waz
And they do count.
- [23:30]
Justin Verrier
If you told me the Wolves make the Western Conference finals this year, I would not be floored by that information. And maybe that in itself tells me that they're not enough of a wild card to, to really fit the prompt here.
- [23:42]
Waz
Yeah, they, they, they went to the, the Western Conference finals last year. They're missing, you know, the second best player from that team. Um, but yeah, I think, I think it still counts. I think they, that would be a wild card because of how this season has played out and the Julius Randle of it all would have to surprise people.
- [24:01]
Justin Verrier
All right, Isaiah, what do we have for our next question?
- [24:03]
Isaiah Blakely
Next one is from Ben. Taking into account rosters plus assets, not cities, owners, net worth, etc. Would the Thunder swap position team in the league? Would the Thunder trade everything they have for everything someone else has?
- [24:16]
Justin Verrier
So to, to preempt wise, let me, let me lay out for you what the Thunder have. They have the best record in the league at the time we're recording this pod. Although it's close with the Cavs and a chance to compete for the title for basically the foreseeable future barring serious injuries. They have a 26 year old superstar who might be the MVP this season. They have two other stars who have not come close to playing their best basketball yet. They have the fourth youngest roster in the league and they have all of their own future first round picks. Plus by my count, seven additional firsts, three pick swaps and a boatload of second round picks. Is there any situation that you would trade all of that for that's out there on, on, on the theoretical position trading market?
- [24:59]
Waz
I mean the only thing that even comes close is Boston and they are so capped out in terms of the money that they owe to the players on this team. Like everybody. There's nobody on a value deal in this rotation.
- [25:15]
Justin Verrier
Like damn, shots fired at Luke Cornette, you know.
- [25:19]
Waz
Well, maybe Luke Cornett. I actually like Luke Cornette. I know people like were talking shit and hated all of his minutes Last year. I think he's like, like a nice player. But Porzingis absolutely at the top of his market. Jason Tatum, obviously, Jaylen Brown. Some people might say, okay, cool, wow.
- [25:42]
Justin Verrier
Some people, you wouldn't say, but some people might.
- [25:44]
Waz
I would say, but some people might say that Jrue Holiday getting absolutely paid. Derrick White the same thing. And so I think the money situation in the Celtics, I think the Celtics have a better roster. I don't really think it's particularly close today in 2025. But like the way that it's going to. They're going to have to shed salary in the future like this. It's just not sustainable with the way the current rules are. And so even the Celtics, I don't think they would trade places with. And that's the only team that can definitively say is better than them right now, which is crazy.
- [26:20]
Justin Verrier
But you. But you're exactly right. Like they are. The Celtics are that expensive. And I think that not only creates the complications you're talking about just in.
- [26:27]
Waz
Terms of your okc's broke ass owners can't afford that. They. Them boys broke. Broke, boy. Oh my goodness. Broke boys.
- [26:35]
Justin Verrier
I don't think they could never get.
- [26:36]
Waz
A date on Twitter. I tell you, boy, I'm broke as hell.
- [26:40]
Justin Verrier
I want to hear about that. I want to hear about that. But the Thunder are not going to be a second apron team. I don't envision at any point in their life. Even when the extensions start kicking in, I don't see that for them.
- [26:51]
Waz
Are they even a tax team right now?
- [26:53]
Justin Verrier
I actually don't know. Let me. Let's do a. No, no, actually, no, I know that they're not because they have one of the. They have one of the lowest payrolls in the league right now, I believe like fourth or fifth lowest in the entire league in terms of total payroll. So yeah, they are definitively not a tax team. They also don't have to do the thing that the Celtics are going to do. If you're talking about swapping positions, it's not just can you contend this year, it's what do you want going forward. The Celtics are very expensive in a way that they're going to have to make some hard choices. They're also going to have to replace Al Horford at some point and probably going to have to replace Drew Holiday at some point. If not literally trading those guys away, then at least in terms of the import within the rotation, they're going to have to bring in guys who can do those things or something. Similar. That's really hard when you're already over the second apron. It's really hard when your expensive team is only getting more expensive. And I. I'm tempted by the Celtics, given everything that we've laid out, given how, you know, it's hard to turn down a champion. And we should say in particular a champion where Jayson Tatum is basically the same age as Shay, and we talk about him as if he's this more advanced finished product. He has years and years and years of super high level play ahead of him, and that is an incredibly tempting thing. Were there any other teams you even thought about?
- [28:04]
Waz
No, not. No. Like, I love Memphis, but no. Why would I know? Like, I'm trading. I'm trading. I'm trading the model citizen Shay Gilgeous for. Look, I love John Morant. No, not doing it.
- [28:17]
Justin Verrier
Nope.
- [28:18]
Waz
You know, people love Houston's youth and those guys, but no, definitely nobody in the east, for damn sure.
- [28:26]
Justin Verrier
I don't think so.
- [28:27]
Waz
Even Denver, it's like, oh, I get to have Jokic. I got Shay. I'm sorry. The guy's been at least the second best player in the NBA. There's just nothing out there that would be more appealing.
- [28:39]
Justin Verrier
There is one I considered from a quality of life standpoint, and that's the San Antonio Spurs. And I say this because if you talk to people who work in front offices, you will find almost across the board, the building, the team part is the fun part, and the contending part is kind of miserable. Like, the stakes are so high.
- [28:59]
Waz
So high. Yeah, misery all the time.
- [29:02]
Justin Verrier
It just rings you out. And the risk of some dumb little thing, like, say, hypothetically, like, a player punching a teammate during practice could just blow it up at any point in time.
- [29:12]
Waz
But, like, the. Just the sort of theoretical nature of a build is so fun because you can just project anything onto what you're building. Like Castle. What, he's gonna be the next Allen Iverson. What are you talking about? Like, yeah, I get it.
- [29:26]
Justin Verrier
Are you telling me he's not?
- [29:29]
Waz
Probably not. But I like Castle. He's got to make some jumpers, but I like him.
- [29:32]
Justin Verrier
I, too, like Castle. I, too, love what the spurs have cooking. You couldn't trade what the Thunder have for it. They're just a little more certain.
- [29:39]
Waz
Wembanyama. Sorry.
- [29:41]
Justin Verrier
Which is, I think, a testament to what the Thunder have built, but 100% Isaiah. What's our next question?
- [29:46]
Isaiah Blakely
Next question is from Asker in Norway. I hope I said it right.
- [29:51]
Waz
Oscar.
- [29:52]
Isaiah Blakely
Oscar. Okay. Is the 76ers situation the worst in the NBA. Two giant contracts in PG and Embiid, who they probably have to attach a pick to get rid of. They are just good enough to never get a good pick and just bad enough not to accomplish anything in the playoffs.
- [30:07]
Justin Verrier
Was. This is a great time for today's Hard to Handle segment presented by State Farm. Life's big moments, like buying a house can trigger big reactions like, I can't handle this dang. Or oh, come on. But what you should say is, like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Let's talk about what's hard to handle. And that's literally everything going on with the Philadelphia 76ers. The evil twin scenario of everything we just talked about with the Thunder. How do you feel about where the Sixers find themselves? And I guess, how do you compare their position? If you could trade it against some of the other horrid positions across the NBA right now?
- [30:45]
Waz
I think, okay, so I don't think it's the worst in the NBA because you still have Maxey. Embiid is, look, he's not playing at an MVP level, but last year, like, before he went down, this guy was scoring like 36 points a game.
- [30:59]
Justin Verrier
So, like, he's an awesome scorer when he's healthy, there's no doubt about it.
- [31:02]
Waz
I hope that he can get closer than he's been to what he was before going down last year. So all is not lost over there. Like, you shouldn't feel completely miserable about everything. However, the Paul George deal has been an utter disaster. He's got three max years after this one. Just, just God awful.
- [31:29]
Justin Verrier
Yeah, he's. He's owed about $162 million over the next three years. And we're coming, we're recording this coming off of what might be the single worst game of his entire career against the Brooklyn Nets. A game where Maxine and B did not play. And I, frankly, I'm not sure Paul did. Paul George did either. It was horrendous and vacant from him in a way that even I, a relative Paul George defender, could not possibly justify to you.
- [31:55]
Waz
And I think that the worst part about this is just the degenerative nature of Embiid's knee there. I know you heard about this report on the last national TV game where they're like, they talked to Embiid and he said he needs another surgery in the off season, which is just like, if you need a surgery now, why aren't you getting the surgery now? And then it's like, what is he repairing in there? Yeah, like at a certain point, like your meniscus is cooked, you know, it's just, it's just sad, honestly. The, the, the state of Joel's body, man. And that to me is the darkest cloud looming. It's just like this is the, the injury situation is never going to get better. Um, and that just totally sucks the way that it's derailed this guy's career. Because the talent, I mean, I don't know that we've ever seen a big. This freaking skilled in our lives. I'm talking about you pick a big man, pick a seven footer, Kareem included, man, like this guy Embiid with the handle and the pull up jumpers and the three point range and the post work and the footwork and just like the most skilled guy I've ever seen at that size. And the way that injuries, I guess Jokic is the most skilled, but whatever, I mean, whatever. Outside of the Jokic category, this is.
- [33:20]
Justin Verrier
The class of talent and skill that Embiid has put himself in. I think this has been a sort of year of gradual realization for Sixers fans, for people following the NBA across the league, that that guy, the MVP level every night performer to the extent that Joel ever was, that he's fought through injuries his entire career, that guy is gone. And that era of six Sixers basketball is probably over without ever having really achieved anything that it set out to achieve.
- [33:47]
Waz
But be real, Rob. Would you rather be Portland or Charlotte? I. Absolutely not.
- [33:53]
Justin Verrier
This is, this is the thing. So Joel embiid is owed $250 million over the next four years. He's still Joel Embiid. And if you're going to give me the choice between, yes, Charlotte's position is a great, like a great point of contrast, like I, I'm not eager to do that. You're telling me you would rather have Zion Williamson's health concerns with the Pelicans? You're telling me you would rather even a team that's like very draft capital rich in the Jazz, for example. I'm not like jumping at the chance to be the Utah Jazz right now. That's a, That's a hard way to live.
- [34:26]
Waz
Watching the Jazz every night for the next two years is not going to be anybody's idea of great.
- [34:31]
Justin Verrier
Like no and nor, nor the Brooklyn Nets, despite the fact that they've been.
- [34:35]
Waz
Surprisingly feisty lately, they have nothing on their team of any value or substance.
- [34:40]
Justin Verrier
But notably, we are talking about a team with one of the most talented players in the league. And we are not talking about switching their position with the Indiana Pacers or the Orlando Magic or the even the Los Angeles Clippers. You know, like there are these teams that are in the middle of the pack that have distinctly separated themselves from the misery that the Sixers find themselves in. And it's, it's, it's been awful to watch. Like, I hate watching the Sixers play right now, but even more so, I hate everything that's in the air with that team.
- [35:11]
Waz
Yeah, tough.
- [35:13]
Justin Verrier
So you know what? So when things do feel hard to handle, like when you need help protecting what matters most, remember to say like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. With State Farm, you can talk to your agent to help choose the coverage you need. You can select from coverage options to protect the things you value most. You can file a claim right under the State Farm mobile app and reach a real person when you need to talk somebody. So visit statefarm.com to learn more about insurance, about the Sixers, about, you know, the fate of the world. Hold on.
- [35:40]
Waz
And one last thing because in group chat we not just faking the funk here. This isn't just spinecon. I'm a State Farm customer. Okay. This is a birthday card for those of you watching on YouTube. This is a birthday card sent to me by my lady at the State Farm office here in Encino. Rita. So shouts to Rita for remembering it was my birthday and mailing me a card. Much appreciated. And you know, Hallmark, Estate Farm, even Hallmark getting up in there. Come on.
- [36:06]
Justin Verrier
Hell yeah. Shout out to Rita. We really are going to need that supercut at the end of the year of every shout out was has given now, Rita included.
- [36:13]
Waz
Yes sir.
- [36:14]
Justin Verrier
Thank you to Rita. Thank you to State Farm. Isaiah, what do we have next?
- [36:18]
Isaiah Blakely
Next question is from Steven. Advances in medicine and rehabilitation and changes in nutrition are extending the careers of NBA players. How will the fact that players are playing longer affect the NBA and in particular the steady stream of youngins entering the league.
- [36:32]
Justin Verrier
How do you feel about where we are right now was with a 40 year old. LeBron for example, still being a really high level player. But beyond him, you know, I think there's some guys who are playing pretty effectively late into their face. Big Al, Big Al, another great example. Chris Paul, Mike Conley still out there kicking it. A lot of guys who are still real quality rotation level players if not the stars they once were. Do you see that affecting the NBA as a whole in any particular?
- [36:58]
Waz
Here's how I'd like to see it affected. Honestly, it's the load management Stuff, I'm generally like pro player with all of this stuff. But like, with load management, this idea that we need to be ensuring that players can play as long as possible, I think it's crap. I think that's what the money is for. You get paid to play, guys should be out there more. Like, that's just what I see it as. Like, if, if these guys in all of these minutes that they played can play into their 40s, then I think we need to be a little bit less conservative with the load management stuff and keep guys out there game the game. Um, and I'm not mad at like, sort of like John Morant's playing less than 30 minutes this year. I'm not mad at that. Um, I think being there though matters. Okay. Um, and I know the, the Grizzlies specifically have been like ultra cautious with JA and his injuries this year. I think like, we need to kind of scale that back and let guys play more. That's where I'm at with it. I'd like to see guys play more.
- [37:55]
Justin Verrier
I love that call. I mean, clearly we've seen enough players cross this threshold at this point to have long, successful careers that maybe you can afford to be a little less cautious in certain circumstances. And it's tough because I don't want to tell players or teams to not be proactive about player health or proactive about injury. With Ja, it's not just a question of, you know, load management throughout a long regular season. In a general sense, it's these nagging injuries that are popping up all across his body. He's such a rough and tumble player who takes some really hard falls, who takes some real hits, and that's a guy you do want to protect instinctively, to rap and bubble wrap as often as you can get away with that. But it's not good for the NBA product. It's ultimately not good for the Grizzlies, even though they're as deep as they are and can get by in games without jaw. Like, ultimately the best version of the Grizz is very jaw driven. Even if they're trying to diversify what they can do at the end of the day. And easing back on some things like load management, I think would certainly be a testament to that. But as far as the age piece of this, there's also like the zero sum aspect of every roster spot that is occupied by a 38 year old guy is a roster spot that a young player cannot take. And so there. There are trade offs with this stuff that naturally happen. It's less like LeBron is a fringe case.
- [39:10]
Waz
Yeah.
- [39:11]
Justin Verrier
No one has ever done at 40 what he is doing. Oh, I would like to read for you LeBron stats since January 1st, just to put it out here on the record. 26 points, 8 rebounds, 9 assists on 55, 44, 74 splits. That's like over a 20 game stretch of the season at this point for a guy who's 40 years old. Fucking preposterous. Yeah, it's crazy. But it's not just LeBron, it's Joe Ingles and Taj Gibson and Kyle Lowry. And I would say overall there is a shift in the way that NBA teams are thinking about sort of the old head model and like, do you need the veteran at the end of the bench who might not actually play that much to be a sage voice within your team? And frankly, teams look at that stuff very, very differently overall though, by and large the league is younger than it was 20 years ago. Like it has moved in a direction of many of these old guys. Unless you are of the caliber of star who's hanging around. Guys do get played out of the mix and I think some of that is just the quality of play and the style of play is really hard for someone in like a 38 year old's hips are not meant to swivel the way that they are now asked to swivel.
- [40:22]
Waz
But I do. I just think we should have you Donnis Haslam types, you know, at the end, end of the bench just being like a voice of like. All right, yeah, I'm a player too. I've done this for a long time and like can be an extension of coaching and stuff like that in culture setting definitely. You know, and just generally speaking, obviously y'all know my M.O. up here. I don't care for the young people and so get them out. I'm all for keeping the, the, the old heads around longer too.
- [40:51]
Justin Verrier
I think if there is like a longer term impact where more and more guys are starting to buck the age curve and hang around in the league, it really increases the need for the G League to be an even more fully fleshed out developmental system, which it is to some degrees. And guys have clearly come on to great success from working there, from role players to stars to just like sturdy end of bench guys, you know, the whole gamut. But if there's not going to be roster spots because these guys in their late 30s are you donnis has them old head types or they are Chris Paul types or Mike Conley types or what have you, the young guys got to play somewhere, and if they want to play for big money right now, they're still going overseas. If they want to stay home, which many of them still do, they wind up in the G League. But it's. It can still be a tough living for those guys until you get picked up. What else do we have? Isaiah?
- [41:37]
Isaiah Blakely
Next question is from Phil. Why isn't Russell Westbrook the league's most improved player? I know it would be an unprecedented choice, but I don't think that anyone's production or value has increased more over the last year.
- [41:49]
Waz
I love this question because it speaks to. Yeah, his production is up because he's playing so much more on the Nuggets, but, like, it speaks to a change in his style of play. Yeah, he's fully optimizing the talents that he still possesses in a way that he just was not on the Clippers. And, you know, some of it is just, you know, we've said it a million times, is playing with Nicola Jokic helps. And I don't think it's a coincidence that Jokic is scoring all of these damn points while Russ is on the court with him. Like, Russ is literally, you know, he is a high quality passer, and he's like, yo, the big fella's unstoppable. I'm gonna feed this dude and get my assists up. Like, I love this question because it's like, sure, there's the production element to it, but it's just like, he's playing different and it's an improvement on a more losing style of basketball that he used to do in the past. And, like, I love that.
- [42:50]
Justin Verrier
So you. You. I mean, I think we all agree Russ is playing different. Do you think he is a fundamentally better player than he was over the last couple years? This is what I come back to with Most Improved, specifically, is if a guy moves contexts. And it's clear the Nuggets are a better fit for Russell Westbrook and what he does. How much do you think Russell Westbrook has changed and how much do you think he has actually improved relative to who he was a year ago?
- [43:18]
Waz
So I love this question because it was something we had to tackle when Russ won the mvp, where it's like, okay, maybe the player. So just to run it back, him and Harden were neck and neck for mvp, and a lot of people felt like Russ was compiling stats and blah, blah, blah, and it was obvious that Harden was the better player, did more to contribute to winning. And I think or his game was just more Suited to winning. Like, to me you kind of are what your production is, you know, like if there's a, like theoretically, like you have a more pleasing game or like it's a more winning game or whatever, it's a more team friendly game or it's more easy to incorporate into whatever context. But to me, like, you are whatever your production is. And like, and just like in Russ MVP year to me, he had put the production out on the court. Like at a certain point, like if an employee works, you know, overtime, like you gotta pay them that overtime pay. Like, and that's what it felt like to me with Russ. Like he's just doing mad work. And so I think he should be rewarded for it. And I think that's the same that's happening this year. It's like he's just doing way more work on the court than he was last year. And so to me, ultimately it is an improvement. Even if he just like, isn't like he didn't transform into a new Russ. It's just more, it's just better usage of him.
- [44:54]
Justin Verrier
It is better usage of him. And that bears out in the efficiency. Certainly it bears out in the fact that Russell Westbrook to Jokic is one of the most prolific assist combinations in the NBA. That's Russ setting up Jokic in a way that's crazy. Honestly, no one besides Jamal Murray and I would say to a marginal extent, maybe Will Barton has ever done like.
- [45:12]
Waz
Those are Will the threat.
- [45:14]
Justin Verrier
That's how deep you have to dig to find like an actual assistant comp. And, and Russ is doing above and beyond anything that Will Barton did as a playmaker. But like in terms of production, I, I agree with you that ultimately it bears out and it says what it says and those numbers are reflective of something in and of themselves by production. He's not that different a player than he was a year ago, but he is more efficient. The minutes do feel different. And I think, look, he's not going to win most improved because players like Russell Westbrook do not win most improved. But I would love to live in a world where he could love to live in a world where, and increasingly I think we're getting to this point, it's not just the second or third player who popped. You're finding guys who are actually having sort of a mid career renaissance who have shifted context but have found a new part of their games or in Russ's case, a guy who teams have been asking to, to change and adjust their styles for a really long time. And I Don't think he's transformed, but he's adjusted slightly enough and found the best possible fit for him. That everything feel so different about what he does.
- [46:19]
Waz
I just like the idea of like some like, let's just say next year. Michael Porter Jr. Like learned to like pass every now and again and we're.
- [46:28]
Justin Verrier
Just very rude, but okay, that's such.
- [46:30]
Waz
An improvement on what you were doing before. What the hell? You're the most improved dude. You finally learned to give it up every now and again. Wow. I love, I love this idea.
- [46:44]
Justin Verrier
The real, you know, the inefficiency of the most improved player award is the guy who's averaging like zero assists per game and could go to three. It's like, oh, yes, give that guy a trophy. Honestly, give that guy a trophy. Genuinely. Please do. I'm all for encouraging good and healthy habits, but yeah, like the last five winners of most improved, Tyrese Maxey last year, Lauri Markkanen, John Morant. But it should have been Desmond Bain and we all know it. Julius Randall, Brandon Ingram. Honestly, better than I would have thought about rewarding interesting fringe like renovation cases. Actual improvement for a lot of those guys. So maybe there's hope for us yet. Was of coming up with like better criteria for how to actually evaluate what admittedly is one of the fuzziest and most nebulous of all the awards.
- [47:33]
Waz
It's very, it's very seventh graders award.
- [47:36]
Justin Verrier
It is. All right, Isaiah, what do we have next?
- [47:40]
Isaiah Blakely
This one is from Hal Predict, the All NBA First Team in 2030.
- [47:44]
Waz
This was tougher.
- [47:46]
Justin Verrier
This is very hard.
- [47:47]
Waz
This is very hard than I thought. But I've come to Wemby number one with a bullet.
- [47:53]
Justin Verrier
Gotta be on there.
- [47:55]
Waz
Ant is still young enough that I think when he's like 28, like he'll just be way smarter than he is now while still being a pretty physically imposing guy.
- [48:04]
Justin Verrier
Also becoming randomly one of the best three point shooters in the league at volume is going to do wonders for his 28 year old self. Yes.
- [48:11]
Waz
And I have there. So that's Wemby. Ant.
- [48:14]
Justin Verrier
Yep.
- [48:15]
Waz
Mobley.
- [48:16]
Justin Verrier
Hell yeah.
- [48:17]
Waz
Evan Mobley.
- [48:18]
Justin Verrier
Yep.
- [48:19]
Waz
My fourth was Cade Cunningham.
- [48:23]
Justin Verrier
Wow. Okay.
- [48:25]
Waz
And the last.
- [48:27]
Justin Verrier
Yeah.
- [48:28]
Waz
Cooper Flag.
- [48:30]
Justin Verrier
This is, this is why they pay you the big bucks. Wise. You have the fucking vision.
- [48:35]
Waz
Cooper Flag, who is absolutely wrecking shop at Duke right now. And it's just like again, man, that's the thing that I like about these new young guys, man, that are even stars. Like we talk about Chet, we talk about Wemby. Like these guys are Stars, but like play basketball the right way, have winning habits. Like, understand, like scoring isn't everything and like there's multiple ways to, you know, positively affect the outcome for your team. And Cooper Flag embodies that. So, yeah, I can see him in five years, first team all NBA.
- [49:11]
Justin Verrier
I could honestly see it too. You can see that part of his game coming out. We have three in common was I also have Wemby. I also have Ant. I also have Evan Mobley. I salute you for your work for the Evan Mobley Caucus. It's very important.
- [49:23]
Waz
I had to. I had to.
- [49:25]
Justin Verrier
I also have Luka in here who is probably on the edge of aging out of this range. And if that sounds insane to you, I would just, I would present this was. I have a little bit of trivia for you over the last five years. So that's 25 first team slots over the last five years. How many times do you think a player who is 30 or older has made all NBA first team over the last five years?
- [49:51]
Waz
Stephen? 22.
- [49:52]
Justin Verrier
Steph did make it in 21.
- [49:54]
Waz
Okay. Oh, in 21. Steph. KD had to have one.
- [49:58]
Justin Verrier
No KD first team.
- [50:04]
Waz
Dame.
- [50:05]
Justin Verrier
No Dame. Again, guys who have made all NBA, but not all NBA first team in the last five years.
- [50:12]
Waz
Over 30, huh?
- [50:13]
Justin Verrier
Yep. There's two other guys.
- [50:17]
Waz
LeBron.
- [50:18]
Justin Verrier
LeBron at 35 in 2020. And then the other one is James Harden in 2020 at 30.
- [50:25]
Waz
Wow. Wow. I wouldn't guess James.
- [50:28]
Justin Verrier
It. It really doesn't happen as often as you think. And if you want to zoom, like, go even further.
- [50:34]
Waz
I picked. I was under 30. I'm like, you got to be under 30 for this.
- [50:38]
Justin Verrier
Luca is on that borderline. Shea is going to be on that.
- [50:41]
Waz
Borderline to do it.
- [50:42]
Justin Verrier
I. I think Luca could have the body type and the style of play where he's just going to put up massive numbers as long as he stays healthy. Shea was very tempting for me and he's going to be on that cusp. But these like huge volume scores earlier in their careers tend to try to scale back a little bit by the time they hit 30 or so, 30s.
- [51:00]
Waz
They can't do it.
- [51:01]
Justin Verrier
They can't. They can't do it and they shouldn't do it. And that's like a wise overall progression for their careers. And you know what? Fuck it. I put Amen Thompson on my team.
- [51:11]
Waz
He was a dark horse for me. He was a dark horse. Definitely my dark horse.
- [51:15]
Justin Verrier
He could be the second best defensive player in the world by 2030 and doing all kinds of insane shit on a regular basis. And I have no idea what position he plays.
- [51:23]
Waz
He's going to get better at offense at all of it for sure. At playmaking, at shooting, at his one on one work with the dribble. I think he's going to improve on all of those things.
- [51:34]
Justin Verrier
I think so too. But look, it is tough to put him on this team over John Morant, Paolo Bancaro, Franz Wagner, Scotty Barnes, Tyrese Halliburton, as you said, Cooper Flag, who else am I forgetting? Jaren Jackson Jr. I actually thought about Brandon Miller for a second, just as a, as a player archetype that I like a lot. Also needs to stay healthy, also needs to keep improving, but it's honestly, it's a shorter list and a more complicated exercise than you think.
- [52:01]
Waz
Like, Paolo and, and Franz are guys, I, they have potential.
- [52:07]
Justin Verrier
Yeah. Also, Chad, I'm not sure if I listen, but Chet Holmgren, who I think.
- [52:11]
Waz
Definitely Chad, is the one who I'm just like, I don't know if he's going to be a first team. I don't know if he's ever going to be the kind of bucket getter, offense driver sort of person or even like a top flight finisher, which I think Cooper Flag can be like a top flight, Anthony Davis style finisher. I don't know if Chet's gonna be that. And I love Chad. I think Chet is just gonna be just a type of no weakness in my game kind of player that becomes indispensable, you know, like a, like a more approved Al Horford type of situation. But like, see, I think he could.
- [52:47]
Justin Verrier
Go higher than that. Like, I wouldn't be shocked if Chet is a top 15 or so player in the league.
- [52:53]
Waz
And I say more improved, meaning like, like Al Horvi's never been a dominant defensive player, but like he's been good to freaking great.
- [53:02]
Justin Verrier
Oh yeah. Star for the majority of his career, rock solid. Like the, the Al Horford that we know now was not Atlanta Hawks Al Horford.
- [53:10]
Waz
Oh, man, that guy was a beast. And so I, I think, yeah, I think Chad is on the fringes just because I don't think he'll get enough buckets. But.
- [53:17]
Justin Verrier
And it's tough too for multiple teammates to be in the running. And so, so long as he plays with Shay, it's going to be hard for both of those guys to make it. But I love that question. Thanks so much, Dal, for asking it. What do we have next? Isaiah?
- [53:30]
Isaiah Blakely
This might be the most important question. It's From Shane. If each one of you got a dollar for every chicken nugget you could eat in an hour, who would get the most money and how much?
- [53:39]
Waz
It's definitely Rob Mahoney, folks. I don't know how much he would make, but Rob Mahoney is definitely our best eater. This guy, first of all, Rob Mahoney's bigger than you guys think. He's tall as hell. That's a one second. This man has appetites, y'all. This guy, I'm talking about two hours after meal, Rob Mahoney is ready to fire him back up again. It's crazy.
- [54:05]
Justin Verrier
I'm detecting, I'm hoping that's joy in your voice and appreciation and not judgment wise.
- [54:11]
Waz
Listen, I've been known in my family as the greediest person in the family my whole life. So you've been game, recognized game. Oh my Lord, have mercy.
- [54:20]
Justin Verrier
Do you have an answer to this question? I did in fairness tell people they could ask non basketball questions and they certainly did. I have two here. I have two semi standard measurements for a chicken nugget. There's the McDonald's chicken nugget and there's the chick fil a chicken nugget. So either way you want to measure it, I encourage you to take it in that direction.
- [54:38]
Waz
Chick fil a chicken, Come on. I could probably eat a hundred in an hour.
- [54:43]
Justin Verrier
That's the thing. Like the number, that's the juicing era of eating chicken nuggets.
- [54:47]
Waz
Chick fil a, that's too easy. But like the regular 20 piece nuggets, I could see myself bodying if I really tried to and didn't care about making myself. I gotta see myself bodying two nuggets. 220 pieces.
- [55:03]
Justin Verrier
220 pieces. I mean, that's a lot.
- [55:05]
Waz
It's a lot.
- [55:06]
Justin Verrier
I know it's a lot.
- [55:07]
Waz
I can see myself doing it though.
- [55:08]
Justin Verrier
I remember when I was in college at UT, there was one specific McDonald's that on game days you could get a 50 piece bucket for $10. And once attempting with some friends to each get a bucket and you know, just endeavor to see how far you can get it to the bottom of it. I mean, granted in those situations, you know, like we're watching football, I also want, I also want to eat some fries. It's a more complicated than like a Kobayashi style eating scenario. A Joey Chestnut style eating display in that situation. 50 was tough, but, and, and I was a much, a much younger man and a much bigger eater in that way. But I, I, I kind of, I'm with you that I think I feel like 30 to 40.
- [55:51]
Waz
Yeah.
- [55:52]
Justin Verrier
McDonald's chicken nuggets could be attainable. That's a reasonable goal for us in an hour.
- [55:56]
Waz
Yeah, that's my range. I'll be cooked afterwards, but that's my range.
- [56:00]
Justin Verrier
Absolutely devastated. Do not bother me for several days after consuming 40 McDonald's chicken nuggets. But I don't know who's paying us a dollar an hour per the framing of this question. But there's some real sickos out there, I guess, who want to watch us eat chicken nuggets. Isaiah, what do we have next?
- [56:18]
Isaiah Blakely
I feel like this has to be the next group chat bet is like the loser has to eat so many nuggets. I just think this has to be. But the next question is from Jim. From the absolute nadir of the Pistons basketball last season. I'm so excited with their progress this season. I'm hoping I'll be able to watch them in the playoffs later this year. How far do you think they can go and why?
- [56:40]
Justin Verrier
Waz, where are you on the Pistons right now? I believe the stat I saw going around is the first time they have gone into the all star break with a winning record since 2008.
- [56:50]
Waz
Jesus Christ. That's crazy. Um, I think the Cade thing finally happening huge has been amazing to see and the way that he's doing it that he's not just. We thought he was going to eventually in the turnover is still pretty high. Higher than we want, sure. But like we thought he would eventually master pick and roll operation when you know, guys guard your pick and roll conventionally. Like we thought he would one day become a guy that kills that coverage. Just his know how his size, his feel, whatever the stuff he's doing in one on one creation has been a revelation. And it's so cool because people don't realize this, but Cade in his class was like seen as the guy by even his own peers. Like you go listen to Scotty Barnes talk about Cade Cunningham. He's like, no, dude. Like everybody looked at Cade as like this guy has everything figured out. He's the guy. Like he's been sort of pegged as the person from that class that was going to achieve, you know, most likely to achieve and that is finally coming to fruition that he got paid and it's not. He's not looking like a lemon. He's looking like worthy of his max rookie extension. I'm just happy for the Pistons, man. And you know, all it took was like competent basketball environment where he's not playing with four non shooters of all of his minutes.
- [58:16]
Justin Verrier
Who knew.
- [58:17]
Waz
Just really cool man to watch. And so I don't think they're going to get out the first round, if I'm being honest with you. But them making the real playoffs and Cade getting to be on that stage and sort of, you know, work on becoming the kind of player who succeeds on that stage is really dope.
- [58:34]
Justin Verrier
And if they were to make the playoffs by locking in that sixth seed and have a guaranteed spot, that is a huge achievement. No matter what you think of the middle ranks of the Eastern Conference, where the Pistons have come from, that's incredible. Where Kate has come from, as you outlined, was in terms of his injuries and his development. That's amazing. And from a team building perspective, how this group is coming together is promising. They still have stuff they need to sort out in terms of the shooting is better and the floor balance is better, but there's still a lot of young guys are trying to figure out how they can play together and how, you know, non shooting wings can sort of complement and augment each other in the rotation. But over the last couple of weeks they've just been one of the most successful teams in the league on both sides of the ball. They are finally hitting their stride. The game they played against the Bulls the other night in which I believe they held Chicago to a 29 point half, also says a lot about the Bulls, but says something about the Pistons. And I think most crucially at this stage in their development, they're not skipping steps. They are taking every game very seriously. They're, they're leveling up and they're growing up as a team in a way that I think is, is really inspiring to see. And I think the cade part of that, first and foremost just gives you a lot of confidence in the idea of where the Pistons could be four or five years from now. I do want, I want to circle back to the Pistons at some point when JV is back, just because I feel like if this continues, if they're still playing well for an even longer period of time, they're probably deserving of an even deeper dive on a pod coming up. But for now, great season so far in progress. Love where they are, love where they're going. Love a lot of the members of this team. Shout out to Tobias Harris for upending all the Paul George comparisons and just being like a really solid rotation contributor for Detroit in a way that Paul George, especially of late, is not for the Sixers. Shout out to Toby. But what Else do we have going for us?
- [60:22]
Isaiah Blakely
Isaiah, Pistons, Knicks could be a fun first round matchup. Like Knicks win for sure. But like they beat him the other night.
- [60:28]
Justin Verrier
Like, no, I don't hate it.
- [60:29]
Isaiah Blakely
I think it could be fun. Next question is from Wes. Let's just say for the sake of argument that we accept Nico Harrison's reasoning behind trading Luka and Dallas. I like kiddo to get through it. Luka and Dallas one of the best player possible return. Is there a single. Is there another single player besides Anthony Davis that Nico should have targeted? Presuming winning now with Kyrie is still a priority.
- [60:51]
Waz
To me the main mistake of this win now, all right, star for star thing. Is that it was for Big like replacing Luka. A guy who has the ball in his hands all the time and is creating insane offense with a big. Just seems that that's another. It's just like. It's not even like for like it just didn't make any sense in that sense. And so to me, it's like you come up with guys. It's like the other. The team is hanging up on you. Like, look, if you could have got Tatum. Yeah, Tatum felucca Tatum with the cost control.
- [61:26]
Justin Verrier
It's worth a call. It's worth a call.
- [61:28]
Waz
Tatum. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now your fans are like, ooh, Tatum, a champion just beat us. Like, oh, okay.
- [61:35]
Justin Verrier
And notably 26 years old and actually.
- [61:38]
Waz
Like embodies all the things that you said Luka doesn't like actually fits the description of can soak up possessions. Like consummate pro. Also a Kobe system guy, also an Ironman, also like a defensive just beast. Boston hangs up on you. But Tatum, Ant, I think Ant, if you got Ant for this, another cost controlled guy. Soca possessions on offense, good defender, plays a reasonable amount of games every single season. And obviously OKCs like, no, we're not breaking up our college atmosphere for Shai and all of that. But Shay is like, that's it to me.
- [62:20]
Justin Verrier
Yeah.
- [62:20]
Waz
I mean if people want to talk themselves into Cade Cunningham because he's having a breakout season, cool. Knock yourself out. And he is doing a Luka imitation. It's a cheap one, but he's doing a Luca imitation in Detroit. But like, no, no, it's Tatum and Ant. That's it.
- [62:37]
Justin Verrier
Tatum and Ant. Like those are the exact guys I have listed as you have. You have to make this call because I. But I do think OKC is so not interested that they would. I don't know that they would hang up on you. They would probably politely decline.
- [62:52]
Waz
You just can't do that.
- [62:53]
Justin Verrier
Nikola Jokic there's not really a conversation, but if you want to kick the tires, you should. Victor Wembanyama it's worth a. It's worth investigating it. And this is, this is the problem with all this stuff is it's all these things are worth investigating and the Mavericks did not really investigate it. The one exception, it's seems, and this is where you and I might disagree on the big a little bit. If you are going to trade for a big it's Giannis. Sure, it's a guy who has all the qualities you love in Anthony Davis, but also some of not Luca style creation, but transition creation, can take advantage, can work off the dribble in more significant ways. It's probably unlikely that you could get Giannis and we have some reported tidbits that maybe the Mavs even checked into this possibility that this was the other guy that they might have was Giannis.
- [63:42]
Waz
Yeah.
- [63:43]
Justin Verrier
Back channeled on the only asterisk I would put on those sorts of reports, not with any insider knowledge of them. I think there are many general managers in the league who, if you try to softly gauge whether they would be interested in trading for Luka Doncic, especially if it involves their franchise players, would be like not sure whether to take you seriously in the way that Rob Polinka has said he didn't know if he should take Nico Harrison seriously. He laughed at the conversation when it was brought up. So I don't know to what extent John Horst, if he was quietly offered Luka Doncic would even know that this is a real thing.
- [64:15]
Waz
That's it. Yeah. Those are the guys for me.
- [64:18]
Justin Verrier
I think that's it. And this is the problem, frankly, if you're going to do like a one player for one player. Yeah.
- [64:22]
Waz
And I guess Giannis is the type of big he does more with the ball. Like that's fair. But to me it's like, why am I replacing my freaking all world like heliocentric superstar for big I don't understand that.
- [64:39]
Justin Verrier
I genuinely don't know. I don't know why you're replacing him at all. But if you are going to replace him, the reason why teams like Houston or Memphis come up in these conversations is because it is so hard to compare Luca one to one against any star in the league. And so the ways you get inroads and traction and negotiations by saying, okay, we don't have the Anthony Davis type player that you want, but we have all of this other stuff and you can have all of this other stuff in exchange for your star. That's not the route Dallas chose to go. And in fairness and to kind of set up our next question, too. Anthony Davis, not the only player that they got in the spiel. Isaiah, can you read our question from. From our friend, friend of the pod, Kirk Henderson of Mavs Moneyball.
- [65:20]
Waz
My brother from Kirk.
- [65:22]
Isaiah Blakely
What is Max Christie? Ceiling. Simple question. He's been a light in these trying times as a Mavs fan. Long arms, great motor, gives me early Josh Howard vibes with a better shot.
- [65:32]
Justin Verrier
I don't mind that comp.
- [65:33]
Waz
I look, coming into the season, I think I. I think a few of us were like, Max Christie, you know, enthusiasts. It started off a little shaky. Like, people will remember. He started off the season badly. And then recently, man, he's just found himself, um, in terms of busting his hump on defense, which I know J. Kidd is going to love. Uh, I got like Max Chris. He put it like this. If he was on the Knicks, he'd be getting Josh Hart minutes. Telling you, boy, that boy, he would never come off the court. And so, like, he plays his ass off and he's making shots now.
- [66:10]
Justin Verrier
Yeah.
- [66:10]
Waz
So, yeah, I mean, what does he top out as?
- [66:14]
Justin Verrier
Like, I mean, he's getting serious minutes right now since the trade. Five games with the Mavs. 17 points, five rebounds and three assists on 51, 55, 83 splits, including some clutch ass free throws to lock up a game against the warriors last night. That's really nice. I think the variable, if you're talking about his ceiling, is how much can he be a ball handler. He's already handling a lot more for Dallas than he ultimately did for la for obvious reasons. And maybe when AD is back, some of that stuff goes away. Some of that usage, some of the opportunity to flex out his game. But there is a nice window here for him to develop into the sort of. I'm not going to say secondary, maybe tertiary creator that the Mavericks need. They need him to do some stuff with the ball and he's so far proven to be pretty, Pretty credible in doing it. One name that came up for me as I was thinking about a comp, because I like the Josh Howard comparison, but I would say Christie is probably a little less lanky slasher.
- [67:12]
Isaiah Blakely
Yeah.
- [67:12]
Justin Verrier
And more shooter.
- [67:13]
Waz
Not going to have that juice on the ball that, like, Howard could just, like, take people to the rack.
- [67:19]
Justin Verrier
Yes.
- [67:19]
Waz
With no problem.
- [67:20]
Justin Verrier
And finish over and around them. And it was such a huge thing during that era too, where it was Just like they would just give him the ball in the first quarter.
- [67:27]
Waz
Yeah.
- [67:28]
Justin Verrier
And he would cook. Like he could do that player. I think Christie is going to be a little more provisional than that. A little more the ball finds him than you set him up. But the name that I kind of have on on my cork board right now to say, like, could Max Christie become this guy is Devin Vassell. Could Max Christie become a Devin Vassell type player? Which is not out of line with the numbers he's putting up right now, but you gotta do it consistently, you gotta do over time. And I think most importantly, you have to do it with the ball in your hands, running at least some amount of pick and roll.
- [67:57]
Waz
The spurs gay. That dude. $25 million. And I was like, what the hell? 25 per for who? He's proving me wrong. He's doing his thing.
- [68:06]
Justin Verrier
He is doing his things. Maybe Max Christie will be in line for a similar payday sooner than later. But a lot to like about the way he's playing right now, to say the least. What do we have next?
- [68:15]
Isaiah Blakely
This is from Sam. Five years from now, what are we going to say about the Timberwolves organization during this period? How will we look back on the transition in ownership, the rise of Anthony Edwards and the cat trade?
- [68:26]
Waz
You know, man, I got to say, a Rod and them bringing in Tim Connolly was major. And the idea that they were like, yo, not only are we bringing him in, we're going to pay his ass to make him know that we really want him and we want to empower him, I think is major. I think Connolly's pretty freaking good. And if they retain him, which I think was contingent upon a Rod and them keeping the team, I think their future is going to be fine. I think he's going to like, he's used to working with a sort of smaller market budget. A Rod and them said they're not going to be afraid to spend. Yeah, I think they're going to be fine.
- [69:05]
Justin Verrier
I think how afraid to spend they are. This is not.
- [69:08]
Waz
It's easy to say that when you don't own the team. And it's like not coming out of your pockets in the moment yet. But I think just having Ant and having a competent gm, Yes, I like their future going forward, to be honest with you.
- [69:23]
Justin Verrier
I think their future is going to be really solid. And to qualify some of what you said there about a Rod and Mark Laurie, too, we should note the arbitration has now. The arbitrators have now ruled in their favor to continue and be the future owners of the Wolves despite Glenn Taylor's objections. I think there's.
- [69:40]
Waz
He's meddling and is trying to throw a monkey wrench in a deal that he signed.
- [69:44]
Justin Verrier
Unbelievable.
- [69:45]
Waz
It's so dishonorable, to be honest with you. And I get it. There's no honor amongst thieves. But this guy literally presided over 30 years of incompetence. Like there were like three decent kg seasons and the rest of it was pure incompetence. One of them was under the table dealing with Joe freaking Smith. That cost him mad future first. Like this guy was a disastrous owner and the team finally becomes good. Partly yo, let's face it, based off of the stuff that a Rod and Lori pioneered in there, they pushed for this stuff to happen. It was based off of the moves these guys were adamant should happen and they're finally good. And this guy basically reneges on his deal. You know, it's just so freaking gross and dishonorable. And then, you know, he kind of did the PR smear campaign against the guys who he did a deal with.
- [70:39]
Justin Verrier
He agreed to it.
- [70:40]
Waz
He like.
- [70:41]
Justin Verrier
Yeah, I. There's really no defense for the Glenn Taylor part of this experience over the last recent stretch. But to Sam's point about this like five year timeline, five years from now, how are we going to feel about all this and where the Wolves are and kind of this stretch of Wolves history? There is the answer that's relative to the Wolves which as you said, have gone through decades now of incompetence of teams almost coming together and then falling apart for all sorts of reasons. Just like no sustained success.
- [71:11]
Waz
Like the Israelites with Moses. Boy, they. They endured famine and. And freaking adverse weather. Like these people have been through. They've been through so much.
- [71:24]
Justin Verrier
They've been through a lot. They have been through the adverse weather. There's no question about that. And yeah, one of the longest suffering fan bases in the entire NBA. And so relative to that, I think the next five years are going to feel a lot better. This is going to be successful. Ultimately this is going to be a winning team. It's going to be a team that's in the mix fighting for things. All of that said, I think there's a decent chance that over the next five years the Wolves never get any further in the playoffs than they just did. And that's something we need to kind of square. Like it's really, really hard to make the finals.
- [71:55]
Waz
They called lightning in the bottle last year with that group.
- [71:58]
Justin Verrier
They absolutely did.
- [71:59]
Waz
Carl Towns figuring out how to be competent at power forward. Them figuring out the sort of how to make a respectable offense while having Rudy Gobert out there was just, I don't know, like, that team last year was a revelation, man. Making themselves into the best defense in the league. Yeah. I don't know that they have a team as good as last year's team for the next five years, but I don't think that's the end of the world.
- [72:25]
Justin Verrier
No. And that's the kind of run that for any fan base means something like that's a team you can identify with. And like, I think that's what's hard about the cat trade. Part of this is not only seeing him be so successful so far in New York and really fit in there and find, you know, a different group and a different alignment, but not having the chance to build on the lightning in the bottle to take it and try to make something of it over time. That's painful. And I think especially when it's presumably being done by every indication we have around that trade for financial reasons and for flexibility reasons like the Wolves did not trade for Julius Randle and Dante DiVincenzo because they think Julius Randle is a better player than Karl Anthony Towns. They did it because they were worried about being hamstrung financially. And this is where it takes you is to some, you know, some topsy turvy seasons, some runs where you have to figure it out all over again and put it together. But you do have Anthony Edwards, you do have a pretty successful front office. You do have a lot of good players on this team who can play together to varying extents that you still have some stuff to figure out. This is not a bad place to be for a team.
- [73:31]
Waz
What do we got? Jv? I mean JV Zay.
- [73:36]
Isaiah Blakely
The last one is from Marco. What do y'all think of this proposal for making the NBA regular season more meaningful? Award a significant prize for the team that has the best overall record along with along the lines of European football. Maybe we pay the players on the winning team 5 million each with small sums for the second, third and fourth teams. Maybe we go with was his 58 game schedule and separate out the cup into our proper round robin. Is it too late to do something like this? Too European?
- [74:04]
Justin Verrier
Is it too European? Maybe, maybe.
- [74:07]
Waz
But I think two things need to happen in conjunction. Less playoff teams and abolish the lottery odds. So.
- [74:20]
Justin Verrier
So you want like, do you want flat odds? Do you want rookie free agent system? What do you want to do?
- [74:24]
Waz
I want rookie free Agent system.
- [74:25]
Justin Verrier
I mean as, as do I.
- [74:27]
Waz
Rookie free agent system. And there's a cap on how much you can spend on the rookie. But like you have to convince these people that they should be a part of your organization. You should recruit them.
- [74:38]
Justin Verrier
Yep.
- [74:39]
Waz
Like we do at every other freaking industry.
- [74:41]
Justin Verrier
You should have to try to win them over.
- [74:43]
Waz
Yes.
- [74:44]
Justin Verrier
God forbid.
- [74:45]
Waz
So yeah, those one area too was.
- [74:48]
Justin Verrier
Where like with the rookie free agent thing, there's the flat rookie exception idea where if, if say we abolish the draft, all rookies enter into a separate free agent pool, teams have the opportunity to sign them. There's a version of that where every team has the same say like allowance of salary that they can use to sign rookies. There's also the version where in place of lottery odds, say the team that ends up with the worst record has a bigger budget to spend on rookies and therefore could offer Cooper Flag. Maybe, you know, the, the Hornets could offer Cooper Flag more money than the Lakers could. But ultimately Cooper Flag gets to look at those offers and decide do I want $10 million to go play for the Hornets or do I want $2 million to go play for the Lakers. And I think putting the choice in his hands would be a helpful thing.
- [75:32]
Waz
Yeah. Cause like what a lot of people would say or the league would say is like, oh, you know, because we have the play in, there's less teams like tanking at the end of the season, blah blah, blah. Take away the tank incentive.
- [75:43]
Justin Verrier
Yep.
- [75:43]
Waz
Okay, so one, make it harder to get into the playoffs, so that makes the regular season more meaningful. And two, disincentivize losing. Stop making it appealing for teams to lose. Okay? So you're not getting this playoff money and you're not guaranteed to get Cooper Flag. You're not even guaranteed to be in the running cause you're so incompetent he's not gonna wanna be a part of your shit organization. Okay. And so that's why, that's what I think they need to do is to make the playoffs more special and stop letting bad teams get good players just cuz they're bad. Like these people need to embrace these freaking ultra capitalists. They need to embrace competition.
- [76:25]
Justin Verrier
Let's go.
- [76:26]
Waz
They need to embrace the competition of the market and make your freaking organization appealing to young people to want to come and build you up and make you rich as hell.
- [76:35]
Justin Verrier
Yep.
- [76:35]
Waz
So yeah, get that out of here. Get the lottery, get the draft system, get the, get it all out of here. I'm done with it.
- [76:41]
Justin Verrier
Rookie for agency and if you don't.
- [76:43]
Waz
Like it, sell your team.
- [76:45]
Justin Verrier
Many, many people should sell their teams. Honestly, rookie free agency is something I genuinely do believe very strongly in. Not just for the sort of moralistic reasons of letting people choose where they work, but it is good for competition. I think it also creates a lot of interesting dynamics within the league. Say if you are a highly touted prospect and the Lakers don't offer you or they choose someone over you. Now we have all of this new, like, interpersonal stuff to mine and relationships between teams and players that haven't even had a formal working relationship in any capacity. It's. To me, it's taking what's interesting about, like, you know, the guy who goes to the second round and can name all the teams that passed on him and supercharging it and like, giving it an influx of money and stakes and cash that would heighten the experience for everybody involved.
- [77:30]
Waz
And I like the idea that, like, let's just say, let's call it 10 million bucks. I like the idea that one team would be like, no, we're going all in on this kid and we're gonna give him all 10 of our money. And other teams being like, no, we got three kids that we're gonna give 3 million a piece to, you know, or 4, 4 and 2 to. And we, like, really think the world of these kids. We think they're like, under the radar, that kind of thing. I love that idea, too.
- [77:53]
Justin Verrier
Doing that, too. There's this thing that happens when guys come out as the number one pick in a relatively weak draft or a number two pick in a relatively weak draft, and they're held to the standard basically throughout their careers of, oh, you were the number one pick. Why can you not be this other guy? Why can you not be a star? And if you allow teams to break up their rookie exception, if we're going to call it that, as you say, rather than sign one Cooper flag, you're signing three really good players in a different sort of draft class that's represented in the outcome, right? Because you'll. You'll see the number one, the projected number one overall pick. Level talent isn't going to make dramatically more than some of these other guys might. But you'll see the overall flattening of the field and it'll just. It'll look more equitable because it is more equitable. That's the kind of thing that I think just makes sense in terms of the way we conceptualize players. So are you opposed at all to this sort of cash Incentive for regular season performance, like a bonus for, for winning the regular season.
- [78:51]
Waz
I'm not opposed to it, but how much could it like realistically be and who's actually going to pay for it?
- [78:57]
Justin Verrier
Like, great question.
- [78:58]
Waz
I guess Adam Silber could find a bag for it or whatever. But like the thing about the Emirates, hey listen, they got bags for everything. Apparently. So do the Saudis. Like the thing about, you know, European soccer, which I guess people point to as Adam getting a lot of his ideas from, is like the relegation thing just can't be overstated. Like teams literally get kicked out of the top money making league. Like they don't get to share in this huge amount of money when they lose. Like every game matters because we might get kicked out of the league because three teams get kicked out every year like that. You can't replicate that. And you know, then that's why they tried to do the super, because no team, no league owner is going to sign up for that. Wait, you mean there's years that I get cut out of the money? No, absolutely not. And so like you can't replicate that. You'll never be able to replicate that like truth of that system like that.
- [79:57]
Justin Verrier
It's just like of relegation specifically.
- [79:59]
Waz
You have to try to win everything or else you will be in financial ruin if you don't. But I do think, yeah, there can be tweaks to make the regular season more special here.
- [80:09]
Justin Verrier
Here's one thing, just to throw it out, you know, if the lottery odds are going to maintain the way that they are, you know, whether, you know, flat for the bottom four, I believe, and then kind of scaling down from there. If you're in that bottom four, let's say hypothetically, you don't get the luxury tax payout that all the other teams get. So the way the system works currently is if you pay the luxury tax, it goes into a big pot and then that money is dispensed to all the teams that did not pay the luxury tax. It feels like if you're going to pay, if you're going to lose, not on purpose, but you're going to lean into it to get optimal draft odds because that's the way the system is set up, you should not also be financially compensated for doing it. And I wonder if there's some sort of trade off where you, you, you put owners of these teams, governors of these teams in difficult positions to say, are you sure you wanted this badly? Are you sure that the odds are set up as they are, but are you willing to tank at the expense of millions of dollars. I think that's a fair position to put.
- [81:09]
Waz
Yeah, they'll just start signing bums to beat the financial threshold. And like these, these, these cheap teams, they, they, they, they're cheap for a reason. Like, they, they're dedicated to the cheapness like they just are.
- [81:23]
Justin Verrier
I think we should wrap it there with everyone in the world being cheap, especially these broke boy billionaires who are trying to run NBA teams. But thank you to Isaiah Blakely as always, our producer today, our proctor for these questions as well. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to everyone who sent in questions. Keep them coming@ringergroupchatmail.com I will read them. I will. I promise. I will. Will they make it on the show? I guess it depends on your question. But thank you to everyone who listened. Thank you to everyone who sent in questions. Thank you to our guy, Justin Barrier. I hope he's having a great time out there and we'll, we'll see him and all of you soon. Foreign.
- [82:15]
Kirk Henderson
Must be 21/ and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.orgchatinceneticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland, Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or 800-327-50050. For 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.