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The Ringer NBA Show
Mailbag: Old Cores, Harden vs. Wade, Basketball Books, and More | Group Chat
01:43:52
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
- [00:15]
B
Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varior and joining me, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Mann. Recording this in the liminal space between Christmas and New Year's, which means I lost track of the time, the day, and my pants no longer fit.
- [00:32]
A
What happened to your pants?
- [00:33]
B
Well, I was just watching Young Hansen, so that was partly the case.
- [00:40]
C
Get out.
- [00:40]
A
You know what? I have many regrets already. The podcast just started, but sometimes you gotta let Justin get his rocks off. You know, I just find that that helps us get the, get the energy shifting right out of the gate.
- [00:52]
C
Lots shifting around. Blood flow too. Your brain's gonna work.
- [00:58]
B
I've just been, I've just been cramming cookies, man, left and right. Yeah, it's just been my diet for about two to three days.
- [01:03]
A
Well, walk me through it. What's the cookie of choice?
- [01:06]
B
I got a pre made box from a fancy bakery out here and I just, I just went through that because, you know, tis the season to pay $50 for like 15 cookies.
- [01:17]
A
You're goddamn right it is, Justin. It's a beautiful thing. Honestly, I love the surprise of a variety box.
- [01:22]
C
You stayed out in Portland, you didn't like go home and have any ants making you, making your cookies. So you're just kind of importing it through like the, the freshness of a bakery setup kind of thing.
- [01:32]
B
Unfortunately, the pandemic showed me the beauty that is staying home and away from your family during the holidays. I will still see them. I'll go at off peak times, but like I think this is the, the perfect time to get away from the chaos.
- [01:45]
A
This is the most Justin barrier take I've ever heard.
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C
Oh my God.
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A
But also, Kyle, I gotta say, you can replace the warmth of your friends and relatives with enough warming spice. If there's enough nutmeg in that cookie, I think you can fake your way through it. Yeah.
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C
How much? What? How many milligrams are we talking about? Is that what you're. Is that the kind of cookie we're talking?
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A
Leave it in the comments, I guess, you know, if you have your appropriate dosage.
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B
All right, so today's adventure here, we're going to do a holiday mailbag. Thank you for sending all of your questions. And I took a brief look at them, but Rob, it seemed like we got a, a lot of them in there.
- [02:19]
A
They were overflowing. So if we do not get to your question, we apologize. There just literally only is so much time, so we're going to hit as many as we can. Incredibly thoughtful questions. Incredibly diverse questions. I can't wait to get into it.
- [02:32]
B
The Ringer NBA show is presented by fanduel. Fanduel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you could build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com RingerMBA to get started. 21 plus and present and select states or 18 plus and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org ChatInElectric all right, why don't we just get going? We got like, what, 10 to 15 questions here? We'll move as swiftly as possible, but as per usual with our mailbags, Isaiah Blakely, our trusted producer, is here to deliver your questions.
- [03:17]
D
Yeah, so first one is from Angus. One of the best things about group chat is your ability to latch onto the oddball NBA characters. Which is why I want to leverage your collective hoops knowledge to help find a player that will make my brother fall in love with professional basketball. Some key notes on My brother Jameis Winston is far and away his favorite NFL player because of his goofiness paired with his modicum of real talent. My brother is 21, so ideally we'd find someone whose career is just ramping up. Chunkiness is a plus. A young Z, Bo, or Barkley would have captivated my brother before. You consider a Zion type, it would really help if you could find someone who is likely to routinely play.
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A
Yeah, I mean, chunkiness is always a plus. When is it not a plus?
- [04:02]
B
Guess when you need to put your pants on.
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A
Depends what you're looking for, though.
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B
I feel like the cross section of bullet points here points to one player.
- [04:14]
A
No, it does. Well, before we get to that, I should clarify. Angus did mention in his email that he and his brother would go watch Derek Queen play at Maryland. I assume that's who you're talking about. Jv.
- [04:24]
C
This is a trick, Ben. He's setting us up because he knows the answer. These Maryland folks are very, very excited. Stephen Ruiz, I mean, he's locked in, dialed in. And frankly, I don't blame them. They haven't had a. You know, it's been a long time since Lonnie Baxter came through those doors, obviously. So done. Isaiah probably knows about this. This is a deep cut. You guys probably don't know who that is, his son is a high, high top recruit. Anyway, I feel like we walked into a trap with this because Queen's the obvious answer.
- [04:50]
A
I mean, he's immensely talented. He is, I would say, appropriately goofy, per the Jamis comp. Just getting rolling, just getting started in his NBA career. And also like maybe the closest thing you will find to the young Zebo body type in the modern NBA, which is otherwise kind of all but extinct.
- [05:06]
B
Yeah, I had a tough time like finding guys outside of Queen that fit the billing. Because even if you wanted to get rid of one check mark or another, like there aren't a lot of like offensive minded chunky boys out there. Like if you wanted to fit Sengun into the role of the baby Jokic, he's kind of already far along in his career. So if you're 21, you want to start at the ground floor, you kind of miss the boat.
- [05:29]
A
Shengun's only 23, though. I think if we want to take Queen off the board, that is the obvious answer. I don't want to overthink it. It's probably just Derek Queen, but if we want anyone else, I would say Shangun, who is not quite chunky, but definitely a little funky.
- [05:43]
C
Well, we've got the. I really enjoyed and I think it's super accurate. I think we. We have the Charmander. I might screw this up. Charizard's, what's the middle one? Charizard's the top one.
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A
Charmeleon Dog. Don't embarrass yourself, dude.
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C
I played Pokemon go for 10 days, so I will never embarrass myself. You're an artist. The bull photographer. What was the middle one I found anyway?
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A
No, I'm just going to leave you.
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B
On an island on this Ivysaur is in the middle.
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C
Yeah, he was like in his middle barrier.
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A
Ladies and gentlemen of a busy road.
- [06:12]
C
And I almost crashed and died. And that was actually when I stopped. No, there is an interesting thing going on here where Queen is the low rung and then Shingoon's the middle and then the most evolved, which if we weren't having to check the ramping up thing, we're in a really delightful time where the most amusing character. I think one of the most amusing characters and also the best basketball player on planet Earth happened to be the same person. Because when you get he's dialed it back a little bit like earlier in his career. I really enjoyed when Jokic was kind of coming into his own. You know, the team was evolving around him. He would just do hilarious things. Like he would do the thing where, like, the ref would, you know, hit him with a te. And he'd be like the parent who. Or he'd be like the kid who got grounded. And then the parents like, okay, three months. And he'd just throw a fit and storm off the court.
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D
Just.
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C
He'd always get to the point where you'd have like welling tears in his eyes. He'd flop around and flail around a lot. I just. He's not doing that as much, but he's still really funny with the horses and things like that. So if you weren't doing the ramping up thing, I would say be Jokic.
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A
But you can't. If someone asks you who should be my favorite player, you can't name the best player in basketball. It's antithetical to the exercise.
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B
Can I. Can I throw out like a curveball here? If you want to buy very low and just not expect a lot as a return. I was watching no Appenda the other day in Orlando and he. Okay, three things. Defense.
- [07:37]
A
Pretty.
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B
Pretty sick to nickname Kung Fu Panda. Come on.
- [07:41]
A
But I was trying to. I was trying to sweet for gun yawn on here. And I think we should take that over Kung Fu Panda.
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B
I don't know. This one really fits, though.
- [07:49]
A
It's fair because three, like, there is.
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B
A neat little old school old man back to the basket game coming out. It might only happen for 10 minutes a game, but if you really want to invest, I think that is the buy low stock.
- [08:01]
A
Look, I'm as sicko as it gets. I cannot in good faith recommend that any to anyone that Noah Penda be their favorite NBA player in order to try to convince them to watch a lot of NBA basketball. For one, he's just not playing enough. And I think this is a strong argument for Derek Queen, too. Another guy who passes the Zion test that Angus was talking about has not missed a game yet in his NBA career, which is huge. So I think Derek Queen really is the obvious answer. Even though it is probably, like immoral on some level to recommend somebody be a Pelicans fan. But in this case, I think. I think you latch on to Queen and hope for the best.
- [08:34]
C
He wears braces also. And also, you know, if we also didn't have to do the thing about playing, you know, Kenneth Lofton, there's a reason he was such a big. Kenneth Lofton Jr. Is the reason he was such a big star. So it's a damn shame because he's. He's A cult hero, too, but, yeah, Queen.
- [08:47]
B
Well, he's also a college player now. Kenneth Lofton Jr. Is that not real? Oh, they got me.
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C
I got sent out.
- [08:56]
A
You got. Got you. You got the. Kenny Lofton got sent back to college.
- [09:00]
B
Yeah, because after the Baylor kid, there's all these, like, things flying around, like, oh, this guy might go back, or this guy. And I. I apparently believe all of it, which I think speaks to the state of college basketball right now, because I do buy that guys can do that, but apparently not.
- [09:14]
A
Well, this is your chance, Justin. Cut it or own it. You know, this can stay. This can stay in the pod. All right, we're just floating on.
- [09:19]
B
This stays in.
- [09:20]
A
Welcome back to College, Kenneth Lofton Jr.
- [09:23]
B
Why don't we go to the next one?
- [09:25]
D
I just want to shout out Isaiah Stewart and Nazrid could also be fit, the body type at least, and fun to watch. But Derrick Queen's definitely the answer.
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B
But Nas slimmed down right from college. Do we really want to attack him with the chunky? Yeah, Yeah.
- [09:41]
A
I actually thought about beef Stew, too. He definitely is, like, if you've been following for a couple years, he's the kind of player you would latch onto. It's just hard. I feel like defense first guys are hard as an entry point if we're trying to really pull someone into the NBA game.
- [09:55]
D
Next question is from Tessa. The spurs have a pretty definitive. Have pretty definitively beaten the Thunder. Now, is this a mainly a matchup problem, or are the spurs good enough to challenge the rest of the west for the one seed? Is there any chance they can skip the traditional season or two of getting playoff experience and take a shot at a title this year?
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A
Yeah, I mean, I think. How could you not, after watching all of those games, not come away thinking that the spurs are pretty uniquely positioned to test the Thunder. Like, they have the length in just the right places. I think the ball handling and the security with it to drive through some of the creases and OKC's defense, which is almost impossible to do. There's just a lot going for San Antonio in that matchup in a way that if they did see each other in a playoff series, I don't know that I would bet on the spurs, but I would bet on the spurs to make some trouble.
- [10:43]
C
I think I flagged it to you guys. We might have when we were together. That that was one of the big things that I noticed was, like, the fact that the Castle and Harper were getting paint touches with the live dribble. Dare I Say, driving the basketball, not to get too jargony there and going to circle. But yeah, they have unique antidotes to what OKC does, positionally and so on that front, yes, they're just a bad matchup for them or they. Or a good matchup, however you want to say it. And historically, that's pretty strange to see a reigning young, healthy title team have a. Have another team have their number like that. I was asking Bill about it and he. He threw out the 86 rockets, which I guess was probably a specific memory for him, which is Ralph Sampson. There's sort of an analog there, so that's reaching way back. I haven't watched those games or anything. But in terms of them, I do think that they deserve credit. I was thinking back about our title pie. Did you guys think back about that at all before?
- [11:39]
A
Oh, I think about the title pie all the time, Kyle.
- [11:42]
C
Well, I mean, I can't take any credit because I only give them 2%, but they were my dark horse, keep an eye on them kind of thing because I was just like, there's a lot to respect there in terms of their, like, ability to level up. The thing that is scariest about them is they still have a ton to figure out, because when I watch them in crunch time, specifically in that Knicks game, you can see they're kind of. They're just not fully realized. They're not the full evolved Pokemon version of themselves. Because I think Harper has levels to go to. I think Fox has more kind of synergy to figure out with wimby. There's a lot more to untap, to unlock. I think for them.
- [12:15]
A
This is easily the most Pokemon heavy podcast we've ever done. And we're like 10 minutes into it, not the last. Let's keep it going. We're drop Shingles puff in the second act. I dare you.
- [12:26]
B
Well, they are interesting foils, the spurs and the Thunder, because the Thunder have this deep bench of perimeter defenders, unlike probably anything we've seen, at least in modern basketball. And then now the spurs come roaring in with three of the better creators I've seen put together, all playing in synchronicity and kind of still feeling each other out. And so there is a real clash there. Then obviously you have the Wemby factor, where you have the reigning title winners basically admitting that, like, we just don't really know how to figure him out. And I ultimately wonder if this is a J Dub in supplementary to that A Chet question, because J Dub just hasn't looked at the, like, the same player he was in the finals. How much of that is because of the injury still lingering? He obviously missed a ton of games to start with, but he's only played 12 games at this point and only three of them have gone over 20. And I feel like this is a clear case not to like reduce it to like the bare level of, of of conversation here where it's like if Shea isn't Shea. And obviously Wemby presents a unique deterrent to him because he's going to do a lot of that work in that mid range that. And Wemby just soaks up a lot of that space. J Dub has to be the guy you turn to in order to make shit happen, and he just hasn't. And so I think the timing of this is interesting, Rob, where it's like on the one hand, yeah, they need to figure this out and it is pretty concerning. But have they hit J Dub at the right time where he's not at his peak? And can you find some sort of caveat or shine a little bit of ray of light if you're a Thunder fan and say like, well, we're not at our final form this season for sure.
- [13:56]
A
I mean, I think they definitely can. And not only that, Mark Dagnall loves this shit. Like this is the best result for him in terms of coaching a team that's as good as the Thunder and trying to keep them engaged. Having the boogeyman in the closet to say, well, you guys didn't do shit against the spurs in three games, like that's a really powerful motivator, especially if San Antonio stays this high in the standings, if they end up in the two or three seed, then all of a sudden you have this really compelling counterpoint for people like us to consider as far as the Thunders opposition, but also for the Thunders themselves to kind of mull about as they figure out what kind of team they want to be, how they execute against the spurs, what are the remedies that weren't there that could be there whether they come from J Dub or otherwise.
- [14:36]
C
Yeah, I think something too that was going on in that game is. And we talked about this a little bit with Wimby, where Wimby, if he's going to play back in that sort of weak side zone in a way that really no one else on earth can do, and really no one else has ever been able to do, if he's able to do that, he just implies that your first option is not going to be it because you're Just ramming into this, into this tidal wave of a person. So that means you're going to have to get to your second action in some way because it's hard to involve him in it. And. And so another thing that's important here is that, you know, the Thunder aren't shooting the ball well. So when we're getting swing, swing or noped away from Wimby, the next pass that the next shot or drive or whatever it is, those shots haven't been going in, you kind of lean towards, they'll shoot it a little bit better. The other thing is A.J. mitchell has missed two of these games. A.J. mitchell, somebody who's given them a whole lot of second side pop and scoring and things like that. So I was teasing Tyler Parker when I was in LA because he kept saying they were going to become the underdogs and I was like, you know, boohoo on the yacht for him. But it is kind of interesting to speak to the Dagnalt thing like yeah, they have some, they have some, some juice there and it's a unique situation where they can motivate them because it's like, hey, I'm not speculating like you played poorly and still won. You guys got your asses kicked and embarrassed. So they have a lot to sort of work with and improve. I think.
- [15:53]
B
I think it's the type of thing you don't want your young team to have to deal with the pressure of throughout this season. It's different if you are the dynastic warriors and you're just like, you're kind of built for this in a way. These are still a lot of young players. Practically everyone outside of Shai still has something to prove here. And so I think you're right. Rob Dagno probably wants this. But I also think as a team to get out of the spotlight and start to like craft a little bit more and work on the fringes where they really need a little bit more help, I think actually benefits them over the long run.
- [16:23]
A
Yeah, I think it's a healthy thing for the Thunder. And as far as the spurs, every big picture indicator right now says they are a really serious team. I think they're the kind of team that based on what we've seen, feel like they could beat anyone, including the Thunder, potentially. Could they beat four? Anyone's is more or less my question. And this is really one of the things you see with young teams and what made the Thunders run so exceptional. I feel like when you see young teams go on playoff runs, the postseason moves so fast tactically, like it is constantly shifting and evolving. And you're asking players with sometimes like marginal NBA experience to that point to make big huge game altering decisions in real time on the floor and younger players just lag a little bit in making that adjustment. So either they can adapt and it just takes them a little longer or they just can't make the adjustments they need to because they don't have the skills or like the the interface for it yet. I wouldn't be surprised if we see that kind of playoff front from the spurs where they are promising, maybe they upset or beat someone who's really formidable in the first or second round but ultimately run up against that same developmental curve that basically all young teams do.
- [17:29]
B
Yeah, we're not that far away from the back to back losses against Golden State where Steph just made things happen and that proved to be the difference. I often wonder if we're getting more toward a rock paper scissors sort of Western Conference playoffs, which I think we always expected but has been like coming more and more now where the matchups are really going to dictate certain success. And so I think that's a good thing for the sport. But I also think it's hard to prognosticate forward because a lot of these teams are on the same basic tier. I think we're going to talk about that a little bit later and I do think the matchups might dictate at the very least who's getting to the west finals. And so I can see the spurs getting beat by a more veteran laden team, but I can also see them giving a push of for a team maybe not beat the Thunder in the series, but probably push them harder than some of these other teams we're going to talk about. All right, let's go to our third question. Isaiah?
- [18:19]
D
Yeah. The next question is from Peter. I love the NBA, but the games are unwatchable down the stretch. I'd love your reaction to my preferred solution. I think teams should be able to decline a foul and take the ball out of bounds. This gets rid of a hack of Shaq and falling down the stretch over and over again. I'm sure there would be trade offs but would solve a huge problem with the current game. What do you think?
- [18:41]
B
Well, what's funny is when we did our last podcast I was actually asking people down at the arena for their ways to like what are they going to gripe about? Like what would you drive about if you're on this pod? And everyone said the same version of the Same thing, which is the officiating or just the amount of reviews that go on there. And this kind of like pinpoints that. I'll be honest, I don't feel like hack a shack is much of a thing anymore. It happens sporadically, but it feels like it's being used more tactically. The interesting thing as well that's happening kind of on the fringes here is. So following up three is getting a lot of attention I think because it's happened in very prominent places. The spurs game for during the cup was the, the prime shining example of that. But John Hollinger said an interesting column in the Athletics suggesting that following up three is actually dying. And his suggestion was like, maybe teams should start following up two as opposed to three. And so on the one hand I'm like, oh, they should just get rid of intentional following late because they could clear all of this out. But I don't know, like, there's almost like so many wrinkles to this now. It's almost becoming like a tactical battle in its own right.
- [19:49]
A
What do you think, Rob? I mean, the tactical battle is definitely there. The question is, is it good entertainment? Like, is it good for the flow of basketball? And really I think what's good about Peter's solution about declining fouls and just taking side out if you want is it makes the end of the game look like basketball again.
- [20:05]
B
But who would take that? It would, it would probably have less value unless you're sure you can get a 3.
- [20:11]
A
I think the idea is you are playing clock, right? And I think this, this is sort of the trade off. If you implement this idea where a team that is fouled can decline to take the free throws and just take side out basically anytime they want. What you're going to do is you're going to turn I think the last like 5ish minutes of the game into keep away. Like it just like prevent offense will just take over the last part of games and you'll shift into that mode in a way that look at lower levels of basketball. I think you could get away with something like this. NBA players are too good at just like tossing the ball around to each other and their handles are secure enough where the chaos factor is just not going to be as prevalent as you would say, like a team getting pressed in March Madness. It's just not the same effect. And so while I love the idea, I'm not sure that the intended effect will really be worth the squeeze.
- [20:55]
C
I think what's really driving me nuts about the end games did you guys watch the end of the Orlando Denver game?
- [21:02]
A
I missed that one. What happened?
- [21:04]
C
Well, at the very last, in general, you said it was officiating was just in general kind of the problem. Justin, is that what you were hearing from the Rose, the Modus Center?
- [21:13]
B
Yeah, I think that's largely fans reaction to everything these days. Like, I'm someone who just, like, thinks of the officiating as background noise. I realize it, like, plays a big effect. Mark Cuban's whole life mission is to make sure everybody knows what an effect it has on people. But I do think the amount of reviews we're getting almost compounds that initial impulse that people have.
- [21:34]
C
Yeah, I mean, well, there was a play where I just don't really. The defensive players are just being put in the position where I don't really know what they're supposed to do, because I think it was Anthony Black. No, it wasn't Anthony Black. It was. I remember who was guarding Bane at the time. It might have been Payne Watson, but he was straight up and, like, moving backwards and Bane was coming into him, and Bane just kind of swept across him and got the foul call and it was just like, I don't. We're in this kind of tyrannical offensive player era. I feel like, in terms of, like, what the defenses are allowed to. I feel like we kind of all thought that it was swinging back the other way a couple, I don't know, a year or so ago after that crazy boom. I guess it was the Luka game where he went wild, scored whatever that number was. But that, to me, is something that's got to get figured out because players are just too smart these days about just. They're too smart about creating abnormal or just unnatural movements to create that contact and get to the line. And I think it's just creating weird results. Bane's really good at it. It's. It's like you can't knock these guys who've got. Who have practiced it and got really good. I just think we're going to have to have a new era. How to legislate this and how to officiate it. Figure it out.
- [22:41]
B
Yeah, I think you hit on two of the key things there, which is one, like, how do you legislate against human behavior? Because guys are going to adapt, teams are going to adapt. Coaches in particular are going to nitpick everything, and so they find these little wrinkles in order to break out the best of it. It's kind of like one of the fun things I love about just all sports where it's like a bunch of nerds in a room come up with an idea, they put it in in legal s and then all of a sudden like, like humans find a way to do whatever they can with it and take it into ways that other people can't see. But the other part of this is like, how do you legislate intent? Because like going back to the my idea of like if you just took away intentional following altogether, let's say like if you intentional follow in the final two minutes, whatever you want to say, and you get two shots in the ball or something, it's just like the penalty is so harsh that nobody will do it. Well, how do you start to determine what is an intentional foul versus not? But I do think the end games.
- [23:38]
C
Are getting very Minority Report tech.
- [23:41]
B
That's good. But I do think we the end of games are getting sludgy as hell and wieldy. Yeah, that has to be one of the top things this summer when they go to the competition committee for sure.
- [23:53]
A
Like if the, if the battle is trying to get people to watch full games, the most exciting part of your game better be watchable. And right now, like to Peter's point, it's really not like it is the worst part of games in some cases trying to just get through the last three or four minutes to the exciting part, being the potential game winner.
- [24:11]
B
Yeah. All right. Should we do the next one?
- [24:14]
A
Yeah. What do we got, Isaiah?
- [24:16]
D
Next question is from Jeremy. This might be the saddest question you've ever received. In a complete reversal from your young core rankings. I did some research on old cores. Not surprisingly, options were limited. But which senior citizens cores are you choosing for the next three years? Golden State, Al Horford, Steph Curry, Jimmy Butler, Draymond Green and Seth Curry or the LA Clippers, Brooke Lopez, Nick Batum, James Harden and Kawhi Leonard.
- [24:43]
A
This is bleak, Jeremy.
- [24:45]
C
This is a bad vibe toss up.
- [24:47]
A
Basically very tough, right?
- [24:50]
B
Because the Clippers, there's nothing good happening that year except unless like the random Kawaii performance that you bothered to tune into or you stomach down by watching one of these games. But the warriors, as we're recording this on Sunday afternoon, just lost in an OT game which might have been one of the worst losses of the season because they were up like a couple points before the end of regulation.
- [25:11]
A
Yes.
- [25:11]
B
And they got absolutely blown the fuck off the court in overtime.
- [25:15]
A
Complete implosion from Golden State against Toronto, which we should say Scotty Barnes, one of the games of the year in terms of 25. Absolutely insane stuff from him. Not so insane stuff, or maybe just insane in a bad way from Golden State, who, like, they are prone to this. Like, if we want to buy Golden State as our old core of choice, it comes with the occasional implosion, whether it's Draymond Green on the bench or it's the team on the court. Like, they just. They are not very stable. They may be better than the Clippers in a lot of ways, but they're not very stable.
- [25:44]
C
I mean, being old in basketball is inherently to lose your consistency. I found this firsthand because, like, I always joke, it's like you have days where you feel like yourself, and then you feel. Have days where you just feel like you can't do it anymore. You better quit.
- [25:57]
B
Do you.
- [25:58]
C
Is it just their oldness at the heart of it, or is it the. I mean, because people like to kind of blame it down the line with their supporting cast. Steph remains amazing. Draymond definitely, offensively, has kind of shirked off, and then you have your kind of. Or just what, slouched off and then you have your butler kind of picking his spots thing. It's just. They don't really have the luxury of him doing that. I don't know. Is. Is the oldness at the heart of. The inconsistency is kind of what I'm wondering.
- [26:22]
A
It's kind of all the above with them. It's the unreliable supporting cast. It's the fact that they're older. Guys like Steph is the most reliable of them by far. And in theory, he should be the one most susceptible to being old. Just given that we've never seen a player his size this old be this good before. And yet Steph is, you know, the. Really, the thing you can kind of write in pen. Jimmy Butler will or won't shoot on a nightly basis. Draymond will or won't be an offensive liability on a nightly basis. And you just can't have this many question marks at once. And yet, as you're saying, Kyle, the older you get, the more the question marks just seem to pop up.
- [26:55]
B
They also have the trauma induced by, like, the. The longevity of these relationships, at least with Draymond and every single one of his teammates and is now his head coach. So perhaps that's a negative in the. In the core rankings here. But I think this. If we're going to answer the question, this is pretty, like, clear cut. I think the warriors are by far better.
- [27:13]
A
It's gotta be right.
- [27:16]
B
If you want to make A depth like play for. For the Clippers, for instance. They also have four guys listed here, and even the warriors have five guys. So it's really tough to make the case for the Clips.
- [27:27]
A
It is true.
- [27:27]
C
I mean, more and more. A whole apple. Yeah. Or. Yeah.
- [27:31]
A
I just think that Steph, whatever he's going to be over the next three years, I'm down for whatever that is. And there's always going to be a place for that. The greatest shooter of all time. Controversial statement. So I'm going to take the one that is probably going to be better, probably going to be more reliable and definitely going to be more fun. And that's the team with Steph Curry on it.
- [27:50]
B
I guess the question, if we want to take it a step further, is who has the best old core in the entire league. I don't know if there are any other teams that even come close here, like, I guess you could say the nugget. It depends on where you draw the line. And we should mention if you want to go back and listen to our young core rankings, which we hope you do, because we spent many, many hours recording those. It was under 25 was the cutoff, which I've already seen people complain about things and still not get that part. But it depends on, like, where you.
- [28:19]
A
Draw the wine directly to camera and told people do not complain about the age cutoff. And yet here we are.
- [28:26]
B
Listen to Rob, guys, please. Yeah, but it's like 34, 35. None of these teams even come close. So.
- [28:35]
A
Yeah, so Jeremy's cut off. For the record, as he looked at teams 34 and older, and he listed. He listed a couple other ones in his email just for reference, like Philly with Paul George, Eric Gordon, Kyle Lowry, Port Portland. I mean, kind of because of dam. And Drew Holiday would be the counterpart there. Sacramento with Russell Westbrook and DeMar DeRozan. That's kind of it. Like, there really aren't that many teams that are indexing this hard on old guys anymore.
- [29:01]
B
Right. Because Denver is only Jonas and. And Tim Hardaway Jr. And they don't even make the 34. Cutaway Jr. 33. Wow.
- [29:13]
C
Okay.
- [29:14]
B
All right.
- [29:14]
A
He's a young man, yet he's not 34.
- [29:18]
B
I remember the days where he was, like, bouncing between the Hawks and the Knicks and everyone wasn't sure if he was going to stick in the league. Now he's here, like 20 years later.
- [29:27]
A
Honestly, pretty reliable in that he is unreliable. But, you know, when you need him, sometimes he turns up. Yeah.
- [29:34]
B
So. So maybe the warriors are Just have the best old core in the league. Congrats to them.
- [29:38]
A
Yeah. Good job, Golden State. Take. Take a lap. Take a bow.
- [29:42]
B
All right, when we do the next one.
- [29:44]
D
Next question is from Jordan. I would love all three of your thoughts on what I think is one of the most mysterious and beautiful things about NBA basketball, and that's individual player development. What are the factors you think that determine how and when certain players make leaps versus those that don't?
- [30:01]
B
Kyle, I think this is your question, but first, I want to know if you agree that development is mysterious and beautiful.
- [30:07]
C
Oh, it's absolutely mysterious. I mean, you're just. You're talking about human beings and whether or not they succeed or not. I mean, yeah, there are millions of variables coming into the draft. You know, every single year, I kind of have little boxes of, you know, they're. They're hypothetical. They're not real boxes. I should do this for real one time and just for. For a video and just put their names in the boxes.
- [30:28]
B
But somebody can do an unboxing video of, like, people's boxes, the prospects of which.
- [30:34]
A
Which, like, bucket they've been put into. Honestly.
- [30:37]
C
Good Bitcoin.
- [30:38]
B
I'm running that down.
- [30:39]
C
Yeah, hold it up. And. Yeah. Anyway, no, I mean, for some guys, I think the first one that you sort of sort players into is are they context dependent? And I think about that a lot, because there are players who come into the league who, if left to their own devices, can sort of, you know, they need that accountability. They need to be guided, they need to be structured, coached. And then there are the guys who could go to the worst team in the league and impact the culture immediately. You look at, like, Tyrese Halliburton went in there and just overhauled that with his personality, with the way that he played. He's one of those guys. LeBron comes in immediately, not just the way that he plays, the way that he leads. So those types of players, and then you worry about other types who don't get that guidance, and that can cause them to spiral during a key time in their career. Um, I mean, I. Instead of me just rattling off a whole bunch, I. I'll stop there and just let you all just jump in, because this is. This is one of the things I think about all the time.
- [31:32]
A
I mean, because it is mysterious and beautiful, to be honest with you. Like it. This is one of the fuzziest parts of basketball is who will make that jump, who will take that step and who won't. I think it's a great question. I think from a technical standpoint, because, Kyle, you covered a lot of, like, almost like makeup, more like the overall framework of your game and how mutable or immutable it is. From a technical standpoint, I think we've seen consistently, there's really, like, one thing that defines almost every player who takes a big jump, especially on offense, and it's ball handling. Every single time, it's ball handling. Even when you think it's shooting, it's getting to your spots by being able to handle the ball. Even when you think it's driving, it's the security to, like, attack and get in the lane and find the crevices. I just think, like, your security and getting where you need to go on the court is the number one thing that takes you from being a fun rookie who's averaging 13 or 14 a game to a potential all star who's averaging 24 a game.
- [32:25]
B
Yeah, that's a good one. Not to, like, put this in the reductive box, I guess, but consistency is typically the thing.
- [32:33]
A
Yeah.
- [32:34]
B
Not. Not to make this a Portland centric situation, but, like, we're at.
- [32:39]
A
How much money you got in your pocket for that swear jar. That's the question.
- [32:43]
B
I got some change.
- [32:44]
A
Okay.
- [32:44]
B
I got gas earlier. I shade and sharp, clear example where we're in another one of these vortexes where he seems like he could be taking a leap. And what was funny is people started talking about this, and I hadn't been at the game for a little while, and I started asking everyone. I was like, oh, did I miss Shaden taken off? Do you believe this? And I got the same response from everybody who watches the team, which is basically, give it more than a week. Right. Because he has these weeks. Can he turn a week into a month? Can he turn a month into two months? Because that's been his biggest problem. Now. His other problem is doing anything other than scoring. But if he could just score at a consistent rate for multiple weeks, that's. That's a check mark. And I wonder, Kyle, if, like, that still matters even when we think of, like, the more technical aspects.
- [33:29]
C
Dating, man, so much. So much like Junior in him. To the point where if you watched Junior on a certain night, like, going back to, like, his, like, Nuggets days, if you'd watch him on a particular night, you'd be like, God damn, is that the best player in the league? Like, so phenomenally talented. And then a couple nights later, you just start to realize, like, oh, yeah, he, like, kind of doesn't. Maybe totally doesn't understand why he did well that night or whatever it is. Yeah, consistency is huge. You know, maybe you don't jump on a player after like three games like I did with Kaishan George and Isaiah really got disgusted with me for that. I know, but if you think. Rob, I think you really nailed, nailed it with the handle thing because so much ripples out from that. You know, your, your individual, your scoring and everything. Developing your touch, learning the game is so important because your handle is so intrinsic to that. Because I always view it like there's the CPU usage thing on the computer. This is the comparison I always make where you'll look at it and you'll be like, this program is taking up this much amount of your cpu and it's like when your handle improves, the less you have to think about those things. If you watch the masterful ball handlers, like, well, Kyrie or CP3 or Steve Nash, those guys, they're not thinking about their dribble. They're able to process. What that does is that allows you to process the game and think about it at a high level. And then that's what superstars are able to do. They're able to get to their spots comfortably and not have to worry about like, ball security and things like that. So I think that's. That is a key thing both for physically getting where you want to score and also your mental ability to sort of get your team where they need to go.
- [35:05]
A
I think you can take that idea and kind of extrapolate from it too, in terms of how many things can you take off of a young player's plate so that they just get to focus on if this year maybe it's like how they're reading their passing progression, right? Like their reads in the pick and roll. I always start with a point guard. It's like, do you have space? Do you have actual shooters around you who will let you get into the lane to then make the progression? I mean, great case and Cade was making some advanced reads kind of against the grain even before the spacing was there. But it was also so evident that he was running into the wall every single time he got to a certain point in the pain. And so it's like, do you have the space with the shooters? And frankly, like, do you have a big man who does big man stuff? Like, who will set a hard screen, who will actually roll, who will rebound for you? God forbid, like these little things I think give you the shape of, okay, this is what a real basketball team looks like around this Young player. And then that young player will use that for traction and begin to take real steps in their game.
- [36:01]
B
Young set some really hard screens today. Just enough. Why?
- [36:04]
A
All right, he did. How about the rolling? Did he do any rolling?
- [36:08]
B
He. He rolled. Did he get a pass once? I don't remember it. Well, that could.
- [36:13]
A
That could be a wider Blazers issue. Maybe they're. Maybe they're freezing him out.
- [36:17]
C
And then another thing that's important too is just opportunity. You know, reps, opportunity. You know, I've read about this, that I'm a big believer in, like, low stakes reps. Whether or not you get that in the G League or summer league or wherever it is, just seeing those repetitions. And Rob, when you're talking about having a guy stand in or just having competent role players stand in and help you, because if you. You just spin your wheels, if you're like getting guys that aren't making contact on a screen or you've got. It's just. It's crowded, so there's that. And certain guys need more of those reps than others. You know, the spurs have been really good about using their G League team to help those guys to develop and make those. Make those leaps, so. Or the organizational thing, it's all. It's all this just crazy, chaotic, you know, all these. All these variables floating in the air that have to kind of come together, but they're really driven by the person. Honestly. The guys that are motored to get better separate themselves. There are a lot of, like, Denny's, a guy who made a huge leap. And those are the things that you're betting on when you're looking at guys in the draft. It's just kind of like, what's his makeup and his will to kind of turn that into butter?
- [37:16]
B
You said it. Question about the G League overall, though, Kyle, because now we're in a different era of the G League, it feels like where teams are very much sending guys up and down pretty regularly. And I think that's partly why a lot of these teams are basing their G League team right near their home base. So if you're, for instance, Portland, those guys are only traveling 20 minutes, right? The remix, the remix, the remix are getting so much. The Portland in general is getting so much love from this podcast. I better get, like a stipend at this point. But do you feel like things are working better there? The synergies there? Do you get the sense that, like, the G League feels different than it did even two to three years ago? Like a real like, way to develop someone as opposed to before, perhaps a competition there. Like, where are you on the G League right.
- [38:02]
D
Right now?
- [38:03]
C
I don't know, man.
- [38:04]
B
It's.
- [38:04]
C
It's. It, like it's in flux. Because I'll hear people, NBA side acts express a lack of confidence in the G League right now. So I don't know, maybe it just ebbs and flows based on the talent that's there, which is driven by what you're talking about. Honestly, I don't know that I have a great answer for that in terms of. I do think that we're going to see. And I could see this rippling down even at the college level, if we start to see more sort of synergy between teams and agencies and brands and then, like colleges. And it's all. It's all kind of. It's really, really in flux right now. I feel like in terms of these things kind of developing into, like a feeder developmental system. Maybe that won't happen. Maybe it will, but I don't know about the G League. Rob, do you watch much G League ever? Are you. Have you heard people talk about this? Because I have heard some kind of lack of faith lately. And you've heard the opposite, Justin. It seems like.
- [38:55]
B
No, I haven't really asked about it, though. But I see teams using it differently, even within the past five years. But you're right. Nil changes everything these days, where a lot of these players might start staying in college even longer, which might suck the talent even more than you're suggesting.
- [39:08]
A
It's true. I think in terms of an actual developmental body, it's a checkered track record at very, very best for the G League. It's just tough for a lot of guys to get slotted into the roles that they will actually play in the NBA. And there are way too many guys who go into the G League and will just shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot when that's not what they're going to be asked to do at the NBA at any point in their careers. And so it's a lot about knowing. And I think this is where the synergy you're talking about is important, Justin. Not just in proximity, but how much are the front offices intertwined and communicating about, like, what are the actual expectations for this guy? You know, like. Like what is it that you actually want them to do when they get called back up to the parent club? And how can we best emulate that in the G League? And it's tough because you're not going to be able to find a Cade Cunningham to come play for your G League team so that role players can practice being role players in the Pistons system for, you know, the Motor City Drive, I believe is the Pistons affiliate. Shout out to the Drive.
- [40:00]
B
You can say anything right now and I would agree.
- [40:03]
A
Here's the thing though. I do think the G League is successful as just unavailable talent body that is domestic, right. These are guys like Mo Bamba just got called up by the Raptors. That's an easy move to make. You know, you just move them over to the roster. It's a short flight. You're not asking someone to like break their contract playing in Europe somewhere. It's all very seamless and easy from that perspective. It's not really a farm system though, in the way that it's developing. The next great generation of players in the G League, even the next great generation of role players aren't really grown there.
- [40:33]
C
It's best for role players. The Celtics, I think are an example of a team that has really good developmental structure in terms of the guys that they've had move up. I mean, Walsh really was toiling around for a long time down there. I think it works for players like that best obviously because you're not really. You're not really going to see NBA potential stars in non NBA. Like summer league is the only real example of that where you're going to see them getting those kind of reps. Like you're not going to really see them in the G League. The spurs, like I said, the Celtics, the Thunder. It's. It's the teams you would expect, honestly that do the best with it.
- [41:06]
B
This is anecdotal and I haven't looked into this, so cool start by me. But I don't hear a lot of success stories these days about guys going overseas and then popping into the NBA. Like we were on a run there where it's like the PJ Tucker's, the Pat Beverley's, There were like multiple guys it felt like per season. And I can't remember the last time a guy even on like a high role player level actually made the jump and perhaps like, yeah, yeah, but that's even. That's a good one.
- [41:35]
A
He struggled since coming back, you know, it's been hard to find the guys who have actually come and really gotten their footing in the NBA again.
- [41:40]
B
Right. And so if. If teams are crafting role players directly for the need that they have in the big league club, I could see where an agent or a player might want to that route because it's more direct pathway to getting on a team.
- [41:53]
A
Yeah.
- [41:54]
B
I don't know. It makes some sense. Yeah.
- [41:56]
A
We should keep it moving, though. We're like 45 minutes in, and I think we've done four questions.
- [42:01]
B
All right, let's go to the next one.
- [42:03]
D
It's the Motor City Cruise.
- [42:05]
A
Oh, my mistake. I apologize to the crews. Were they ever, at any point, the Motor City driver?
- [42:11]
D
I think they were. To be honest, I'm a little out.
- [42:13]
A
Of date on my Glee references.
- [42:15]
B
Is that better? I think that's worse.
- [42:18]
A
The Cruise.
- [42:18]
C
Cruise.
- [42:19]
A
Is it better to drive?
- [42:21]
B
You're just going. And you're not going that fast. You're not going that slow. You're just kind of going along.
- [42:25]
C
It's sort of sedated. Yeah, it's a little. It's a little laid back. Right.
- [42:30]
A
It's the opposite of what I want from my developmental prospect. I want drive. I don't want you cruising down there. What are we talking about?
- [42:38]
C
So they're. Wait, your team's not the Red Claws anymore, right? That's one of the great tragedies ever. They went.
- [42:42]
D
It is bad. Yeah, they're just the main Celtics, but.
- [42:46]
B
They still have a lobster. But they colored him green, correct?
- [42:50]
A
Yeah, that's correct.
- [42:51]
B
That's an abomination. An abomination.
- [42:55]
D
Anyway, next question is from Jack. Why are the Rockets consistently considered a tier above the Knicks and Spurs? I get it with Denver, but what's the case for Houston? What have they actually proven so far? Their depth feels like a real question mark, and the spacing concerns are still pretty glaring.
- [43:12]
B
Can I disagree with the premise? Yeah, I kind of think they're all on the same tier. And if anything, I think, like, the Rockets and the Knicks are on the same tier, and perhaps the spurs, who we just talked about, might not be on that tier just yet. Like, I'm not ready to crown the spurs as, like, a true Blue title contender winner this year. I still have my doubts, as most people I think would, about a team that's built primarily on young players. But I think the Knicks and the. And the Rockets are kind of right. I would do the tears. If I'm cheering this, I would say Denver in Oklahoma City, then maybe, like, Detroit, Knicks, Rockets on the same one, and then the Spurs.
- [43:46]
A
So just to clarify, your first year this time does have teams on it.
- [43:53]
B
Box doesn't mean I'm thinking incorrectly. Okay.
- [43:56]
A
I think what's happening here in terms of Jack's question is when we talk about the west, we basically always do Oklahoma City. Houston, Denver. And so the Knicks are not part of that conversation for obvious reasons. Now, will the spurs get there by the end of the year? We'll see. I think they're making a compelling case as it is. I also think point differential is something that a lot of people look at as like a snapshot of the league. And the Rockets have been number two in point differential, like by a pretty significant margin even including this recent swoon for the entire season so far. So between that and the fact that they're like more athletic than a lot of the other kind of would be challenging teams and they have a proven defense and a proven superstar, I just think that Houston has like a lot going for it that even, even the Knicks might be jealous of in some ways in terms of the stability of that. So I get why it's happening, but I agree with you that New York is probably on an equivalent tier to the Rockets at this point.
- [44:47]
C
I think there was a little more also just in the terms of if you want to figure out the nebulous like chemistry of like why, why things are talked about more or less. I think that the Rockets in general early in the year just had there were a little bit newer, fresher things to talk about in terms of KD being there, in terms of them figuring out the point guard thing. Whereas we kind of knew who, we know who the Knicks are and it's just kind of like, are you going to live up to what we from you or not? Denver retooling. It's just a lot of those things were more in stasis. So I understand pitting like the newness of the spurs against the newness of the Rockets. I'm with you guys. I think that the spurs probably just need a little bit more. I think they're definitely in the conversation in a valid way, but in terms of like leapfrogging those other teams, I understand the skepticism about doing that because I'm a skeptical, skeptical person in general. But I think that's why Houston was talked about more earlier in the season. I don't know if you all agree.
- [45:44]
A
I also, in terms of the skepticism about their offense specifically, they're a tough team to wrap your brain around because they don't look at all like a traditional offense. They're just one of the best offensive teams in the league. I don't know what to tell you at this point. Like they just are there even in half court. They're top 10. And they also have God tier offensive rebounding in a way that no one else can really touch right now. And so that combination, incredibly powerful. Regardless of what the flow looks like or how you feel the shooting is in terms of the balance of these lineups, like they score with the best of them. And so long as that's going to be the case, they're going to be one of the best teams in the league.
- [46:17]
B
Plus, in terms of the depth, Tari's back, Dorian Finney Smith finally playing. So they're starting to backfill as well as they go along. Why don't we go to the next one?
- [46:28]
D
I just want to give a quick update on the Clippers old core. Kawhi's got 48 with a minute 50.
- [46:34]
B
In the third quarter.
- [46:35]
A
Yeah, we didn't even say why Leonard, during our old core.
- [46:38]
C
That's actually a later question.
- [46:40]
D
Yeah, but the next question is from Wendell. I am a casual NBA fan in that I do not watch regular season games. I follow scores and headlines and of course listen to every group chat pod. I then tune in and watch games once the playoffs start. How would you, as NBA fans, or if you were the NBA board, convince me, as a casual fan to watch more than just the playoffs?
- [47:05]
B
So I would say as the first point of order that the NBA rewards time spent. Yes, in the same way that a TV show does, in contrast to a movie where you could really get into the nuance of things. And I think that's also what builds a stronger bond with the individual players because 82 games is a long ass season and you're really getting into the nitty gritty of things. And thus when you talk to an NBA fan, they tend to, dare I say, like, prioritize the more sophisticated elements of sports watching. Whereas the NFL is a very raw and visceral and violent experience, which is great, almost like in the way a big old IMAX movie is. But for an NBA team, you really gotta like, like be committed. And you also, I think, are rewarded from that commitment over time. Because I think the bond is actually stronger when you get down to it.
- [48:04]
A
I mean, this is so crazy. You're. You're saying it's almost like prestige tv. That's the comparison you're making.
- [48:10]
B
I wouldn't, but perhaps you would.
- [48:12]
A
In theory you could. I. I do think you're spot on though, Justin. It's like you can look, if you just want to tune in for the playoffs, you can see the results. But the regular season is where you get the context. It's where you learn what those results mean or how, like how they mean more to you. Because if you've been tuning in for however many games of the 82 or just kind of bouncing around the league you want to do, maybe you'll become invested in seeing the Knicks get over the hump based on what you've seen from them in the regular season. Maybe you're going to see Jamal Murray and have like a new respect for the way he's played this season and be like, man, I just love his game and I want to see him do more. I can't wait to see what he does against Oklahoma City or whoever in the playoffs. You're going to have some like preconceived notions if you're listening to group chat or watching highlights or doing whatever. But it's not going to be the organic like stuff that just finds you and grabs you over the course of that time spent that then changes the way you think about what ultimately happens.
- [49:03]
C
I think we have an interesting thing going on with the NBA right now where I think that the volume of the product being different from the NFL, you know, you can't. The increase of video hasn't really impacted the NFL A because they're stricter about what they let people do with it and during the week in terms of content creators and things like that. But the NBA is very wide open. The fire hose is as big as, you know, whatever it is, the sand dune worm's mouth, it's gigantic. It's so big and as much as you want, you can get fat or drunk off of it. And I think the access to video on a day to day basis with league pass, you have the people who can go and get rewarded in the way that you're all talking about. But I really think as somebody that shovels the watching pile, I always say that it's a pile that I shovel and it never moves, it never goes down. It's just so much all the time. I think for most people, for sickos, for people who are really, really into the details and want to get rewarded by that stuff, that's fine. But a lot of people, a lot of people don't. A lot of people don't have the time. And I think that the sort of the. Even compared to college, I just feel like the games, if a team loses a game in the NBA, I just. You feel people more quickly shrugging it off. Unless it's a loss to our rival or whatever it is that can be indicative to varying degrees. But you'll feel people shrug it off and be like, ah, we get a lot more of These. I just feel like, like there's something about the, the availability and things that makes me think that the NBA should start to lean into finding places where. And I think we'll talk about this more with the broadcaster thing. Finding places to drive the narrative engine of the league more effectively. Because I don't see it on national broadcasts in the way I always reference this. But like Bob Costas used to set it out and, and because we had less access to league pass, didn't exist and things like that, that you got this very broad cinematic look at the league that I personally don't see anywhere. Unless you find these people on YouTube or wherever it is. I think the NBA has a problem on a storytelling front because we have so much access that you can just drown in it and it can start to kind of just lose its meaning. I don't know.
- [51:08]
A
I think this is one of those things we don't really talk about with football. And here I go, guy who doesn't watch it trying to opine about what's going on in the NFL. But my understanding just based on like looking at social media, talking to friends. There are such clear league wide storylines in the NFL that people are gravitating towards and locking into. And I'm not saying everyone is in agreement, but like the discussion points feel a little more hashed out than with the NBA. And maybe some of that is just the sheer number of games. Maybe it's me imagining that or seeing groupthink on Twitter or whatever, but I feel like there is a little bit more like driving story and we're a little all over the place. You know, there's a, there's a version of the NBA for everybody, for the real X and O nerds, for the people who just want transactions, for the people who just want kind of like interteam drama or just the aesthetics of the game or whatever it is. There's a version of that league for you, but we're not coming together very often at this point. Like there's a little overlap, but you're kind of in your own lane.
- [52:02]
B
I don't know if I necessarily agree with that. The NFL is better at like carving out those storylines. I think the media apparatus, typically the ESPN's, the big boys and are, are setting the agenda for everyone.
- [52:14]
A
I don't mean the league itself. I just mean in terms of the way the league is covered.
- [52:18]
B
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I, I see pretty it similarly. I think it's just intrinsic to the way the NBA works and probably how the schedule works. And like, yeah, don't get me wrong, I think the schedule should be. There should be cut, a big old cut taken out of it. I don't know a single person who works in the league who watches anybody who isn't like financially invested in the 82 game schedule saying anything other than there needs to be fewer games. That would help to a large degree. I ultimately think everything that we end up talking about in this kind of conversation ultimately boils back down to if we had fewer games, this would not be a problem. But I think like for all of us who watch the NBA before the decision, like, this is kind of the NBA reverting back to where we were before, where it almost, I think the decision era, the post LeBron boom kind of lulled people into thinking it is something that it's not. And I think ultimately people got into it for the reasons that I'm talking about where it rewards repeat watching. And I think that Denver game that, that Kyle was referring to earlier, where Anthony Black went for like 38, I think is a prime example of that. Where we've seen him kind of struggle. Last year we talked about like, oh, maybe he'll take the leap. Like, could he be a player? Does he start? Does he not? And then even this year we see flashes of it starts to, to get it all together. Then all of a sudden on a random Saturday night game that I just happened to be plugged into, he was fucking awesome. And that like that pop of electricity hits more because of the time you invested in it now.
- [53:47]
A
Yes.
- [53:48]
B
Should you invest that amount of time to get to that? I think that's a different conversation that I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you if you said that. But based on how things played out, I feel something more personal about black success than I wouldn't have if I just saw a guy in Game 15 on an NFL field do something similar?
- [54:08]
A
Totally. I think it's the little things. It's the medium sized things. It's. If you are invested and you are watching a Celtics run and you, and you see Jaylen Brown going for a lefty layup, it's like, see, look. Look how far we've come. Look how far we've come together. And there's just no way to replace that. Even if you're plugged in on social media, even if you're getting all the jokes, even if you're listening to podcasts, like, you'll get bits and pieces of that stuff, but there's just going to be a part of it that's Always a little bit of contextually. A little bit of context that's missing. And again, I'm with you, Justin. The value judgment of that is different for everybody. But if you've got the time for it, I think the NBA does ultimately pay off in its product. The people who are really, really deep into it.
- [54:46]
B
All right, next one.
- [54:48]
D
All right, next question is from B Ball Girl. Are there any teams or players you find particularly challenging or elusive to explain or talk about?
- [54:56]
A
As a writer slash podcaster, I love this question. The answer for me is, like, almost everybody, all the time.
- [55:04]
B
Yeah, right.
- [55:05]
A
Especially when someone new comes onto the scene. You're trying to figure out how to wrap your head around what it is that they do. The ones who kind of stick. For me, I've made a list of some players I think there's a common theme here that we can get into. Cam Thomas, RJ Barrett, PJ Washington, deandre Ayton, Late Stage, Russell Westbrook, John Collins, Moses Moody, Gary Trent Jr. These players are doing something that is clearly valuable to a point, but to what point? And those are the hardest players to talk about, where there's no, like, black and white. They're good, they're bad. They're even good at this, they're bad at that. It's like, on this night, they're incredibly valuable. And in the grand scheme of things, I don't know how useful it really is. If you're talking about wanting to win a championship or wanting to go on a deep playoff run or have them be your franchise player or whatever it's like. But it's also con. Like, it's so specific to the moment that they are in that it's hard to make, like, a grand statement about who PJ Washington is as a basketball player.
- [56:01]
B
These. The Julius Randall All Stars, or is he elevated out of that group?
- [56:05]
A
He's. He's way elevated out of it. He's way too good. Now, I love. I love Julius Randle, but he. At one point to. What you're saying was in this class. Absolutely.
- [56:13]
C
I thought you were saying PJ was elevated. I was like, what? Really? Oh, yeah, Julia, this, I think you hit on. That is a good one. Because I think what you're. What you're talking about is just sort of figuring out where to draw the. The boundary of severity of criticism, like, and create, you know, benefit of doubt with someone like a Cam Thomas. Because what you're seeing is someone who has. Going back to the developmental thing, opportunity plays a big part of that. And who's to Say that this wide open road opportunity for Cam Thomas to go wild and shoot all the shots isn't going to serve him in another situation down the road. And, and watching him, you know, he has been sort of a lightning rod. And players like him who have all that open road to shoot the ball a lot, they do tend to Zach Levine's guys like that. You know, it's like you just. That's the hardest thing at times. It's like you're tempted to draw these really severe opinions about those players and dismiss them. And I think that can be a really tricky thing, evaluating guys from. You know, because sometimes guys will pop into winning situations that are just right and you're like, jesus Christ, Andrew Wiggins, wow, he's doing something here. Like those, those things can be really hard to dial in.
- [57:22]
A
Like, I don't love Cam Thomas, but he came into a game against the Wolves and put up 30 and 20 minutes off the bench like it was nothing. It's like, I can't. You can't discount that that's a real thing that happened. But what does it mean? And I think that's one of the most difficult parts of trying to analyze the game is taking the actual literal, inescapable contributions of a player and figuring out like, does this actually matter? Like, do. Does a. Does a big. Getting rebounds actually matter if they don't actually bo out? You know, it's. This stuff is happening all the time.
- [57:50]
C
We should call them double rainbow players. What does it mean? You know what I mean? Is that. Do we like. Is the Internet that old that people won't remember that reference anyway?
- [57:57]
A
Unfortunately, maybe. So.
- [57:59]
B
We encounter this a lot in the top 100, and I've basically adopted the Randall rule, which is if a player who you don't particularly like, the means for which he gets his production is producing at a level that is ignorable, unignorable, I should say, then you have to, like, respect it, I think. Yes. Vuch is one of these classic cases where it's just like a lot of times when Vuch isn't right, it's really bad. But if he's shooting the hell out of the ball, if he's making that offense work, like, you got to give it to him. He's holding guys accountable because they just won't play hard enough. You got to give it to him.
- [58:31]
A
What about when he's trying to check Giannis onto Takounmpo's end of game behavior? Do you have to give it to him?
- [58:36]
B
I respect it. Yeah, that Women was bullshit. You don't do that.
- [58:40]
A
I'm fine.
- [58:41]
B
Unwritten rules, man.
- [58:42]
A
See, I'm in the, like, if you don't want him to dunk on you, maybe don't be losing that badly camp. But, you know, there. There are losers of all kinds.
- [58:51]
B
Well, my. My side door answer to this question is something that Kyle was kind of alluding to before, which is dominant teams, especially later in the season. Because the one thing I hear constantly from people is, like, you don't give this team enough respect or like, why don't you talk about this team? And my answer is, honestly, at a certain point, point, like a team like the Nuggets a couple of years ago in their title run, like, what more is there really to discuss once they've established that they're so good, that you really are nitpicking at that point. And for a national show like ours, like, you know, a couple, like, productive minutes from Bruce Brown out of nowhere, like, that's not going to make the marquee. It's not going to make our outline. And so it ultimately comes down to our favorite word, Rob, which is the driving force for all interests, especially in stories. I say this all the time. What is it?
- [59:42]
A
Breakfast?
- [59:45]
B
Tension.
- [59:45]
A
Tension.
- [59:46]
B
Tension.
- [59:47]
A
Yeah, sorry, that was the one.
- [59:48]
B
The tension. Because we learn all through narrative. Like, all of the fucking blog boys had a revolt over narrative inflicting the game. But, like, narrative is how we discuss things and how we learn things and how we develop. Like, what is intrigue? And so if there's no tension, then there really isn't much to talk about. And that's why we're not saying that team isn't great. I'd love to talk about. We'll talk about them all the time in the playoffs, but if they're just cruising and they have 60 wins in March, there's not much there to really diagnose.
- [60:18]
A
You can talk about what makes them good, but at a certain point, it's just like, case and balls is Pretty sick, huh? A.J. mitchell, we love them. You know, like, you can just run down the rosters or run down, like, oh, they're good at this thing. They don't turn the ball over. They get to the paint a lot, whatever it is. I think, honestly, those teams are definitely elusive. I would say media wide, too. A team like the spurs has been super elusive, where the Wemby vacuum, when he was out of the lineup, or even when he was coming back and playing like, you know, working himself back against the minutes limit, people were just talking about it as if it was like a Wendy Wemby dominated game all the time. The spurs are winning so many different weird ways every time they play that if you talk about them definitively as being one thing, I just think you're probably wrong about it. And so it's like, how do you even wrap your arms around a team like that when they've had injuries, they've had guys in and out, we know so little about who they are as a whole, and yet in these lineups, they are scorching teams with offense. In these lineups, they play super small. And these lineups are playing Luke Cornett and Victor Webanyama together. Like, they're all over the place in a way that I think is super fun, but also pretty difficult to actually explain.
- [61:23]
C
So you're saying that, like, a player can be so odd and so good that it can kind of create, like a cognitive event horizon based on.
- [61:30]
A
Oh, there's. There's no doubt about that. Like, I. I just think. Think if there is, for one, if there's a star on the team, it sort of blots out a lot of the actual explanation for what's happening, which sometimes is related to the star, often maybe is related to the star, but sometimes it's just like, I don't know, Harrison Barnes shot like 80% this week and they. And the spurs won four games. Like, that's just a real thing that could happen and factor into a pretty significant part of their season.
- [61:53]
B
Right. And that's the flip side of, like, allowing ESPN or someone of that nature to dictate, like, interest, which to a large degree, they do. Even still, where it's like, if Wemmy's not there, they're just going to ignore it and not really, like, foul the story as it was ebbing, you will on group chat, because we get into the nitty gritty there.
- [62:11]
A
So look at that.
- [62:12]
B
Just listen to us and nobody else is really the takeaway.
- [62:15]
A
Problem solved. There we go.
- [62:17]
B
All right, next one.
- [62:19]
D
Speaking of nitty gritty, this question from Michael. I'm a lifelong Celtics fan and I want all your Ugo Gonzalez takes. What do you guys think of uga? How does this play in the play of the triumvirate of him, Minot and Walsh change things for the future of my beloved Celtics?
- [62:35]
A
Yeah, I really want to hear from one person, and it's the man who saw Ugo Gonzalez in the flesh tonight on a basketball court right before his eyes. Justin. I mean, were you moved?
- [62:45]
B
He's pretty sick. They were closing down the stretch with the four starters and Ugo Gonzalez and he has that thing where it's like. Like there are degrees of pests, right? Like you have the guy who's just going to be all effort out there and then you got the guy at the high end who's just like really working the lines of like, what is acceptable. And this dude will just like fucking shove guys who are twice his size just in order to get a foul back, which he did against, I believe, Tomani Kamara in order to get to the free throw line. Like he's, he's a baller and like, you can't really teach what he has, which is very exciting, which is just, I guess it's grit and determination. Not to be real estinian about this, but he has that sort of Joe Maz sort of quality, which is not surprising to see him succeed under this coach, under this team.
- [63:37]
A
I think the other thing he has is just sort of the element of surprise. Like he, the way he reads, especially on offense. He's a defense first player. The effort, the hounding, they're very important qualities these. But like, he's not a pure shooter and he's an unpredictable cutter. And so I don't know that he's ever going to get to the point where he's like putting up 15 a game. Like, that's just not really what he does for the most part. But he's going to get six very opportune points at a time where it like really feels like it. It fucks up your shit or fuels a run or does whatever. Like it feels backbreaking when he does stuff. And I think that's in part he's like a pretty. A pretty savvy cutter. He's a good finisher. It's like all those things coming together sort of make him an element that's really hard to pin down, even for a Celtics team that, you know, they should be more predictable than they are. And yet teams seem to really have. Have trouble. Blazers accepted, apparently actually stifling them.
- [64:30]
C
I think when you look at. I was kind of, you know, Minot and Walsh and Ugo, I was like, we can't really say. I don't know if they're quite to terror twins level yet in terms of, you know, the. But I was like the bothersome brothers. I was trying to think of something, you know, some kind of nickname. Yeah, some kind of nickname for them, but Spanish Conchar was another thing that.
- [64:52]
B
I was thinking about.
- [64:52]
C
Rugo. It's kind of. I don't Know, it sounds like a conquistadors or. Anyway, Hugo might not even be Spanish. I just know he played for Real Madrid, but, you know. 41.4 on Catcher Truth. The shot looks better than it did a year ago. He's getting better. Like I said, the developmental stuff, I know they love him to death. He. He just is one of those guys, like hands and he. He's very accurate. And get. I said Kanchar because Kanchar had this incredible, like, steel rate coming into the league. He was just really like an expert, right place, right time. I don't know if he's like one of like a younger sibling or something like that. You'll see that from younger brothers a lot. Like, they just are really unafraid of contact. They're really physical. His footwork is really good in the paint. Like, when he's driving to the basket, he decels, he takes bumps. I think what if you're going to, you know, spin this out and talk about to what Michael asked about, like, how are they going to. How is he going to factor in? I think once the Celtics become a little bit more whole and the system and the organism is sort of more functioning the way it normally does, I think that you're going to see that cutting. I think you're going to see that transition speed. I think everything that he does is scalable up. Even if he never becomes, you know, somebody who's like a primary ball handler, he doesn't have to because for the foreseeable future, I think the Celtics, Celtics have pieces that are going to enable him in a. In a good way.
- [66:15]
A
It would be really cool if all three of these guys are part of the Celtics, like, near term future. Once Jason Tatum comes back, whenever that is, or the team kind of turns over and reshapes itself a little bit, that'd be really cool. Absent that Ugo feels like he's. Ugo and Jordan Walsh, I say, are kind of at the front of the line. Josh Minot finds his way into the doghouse now and again, gets. Gets yoinked around in the rotation a little bit in ways that makes it really hard to believe that he's like, like entrenched himself. But he's had moments where he looked that way. He's had moments where he looked like he might be a fixture. And if nothing else, I think the balance of those three is really fun and is. Is really one of the defining parts of the Celtics season so far in terms of what they found triangulated between the three of them and how many.
- [66:57]
B
Times have we talked about teams that get to this position where they're devoting so much cap space to 2 to 3 players? Needing these guys on the fringes in order to play 10 to 15 to 20 minutes and being able to manufacture them is the type of difference making sort of organizational skill that really could make the difference between a team competing for a title versus just being an also ran. You look around the league, like, a lot of teams are trying to find a Josh Minot for. For 10 minutes or Jordan Walsh to guard your, like, primary guy. And so, like, if Tatum comes back, like, I'm getting into the. They lost the Blazers today, so this is a bad time to be saying this, but, like, I'm kind of, kind of buying into the wild fantasy about this year because the east is still wide open. I think they would have to play above their heads in order to get there. Tatum would have to look great pretty much immediately, but it's like, it's in within the realm of possibility that something good could happen this season for the Celtics.
- [67:52]
A
Yeah. And look, regardless of a win, a loss to the Blazers or whatever, Ugo Gonzalez came in and gave him 30 good minutes in a game like this. Huge net win. Like, he's way ahead of the curve. Jordan Walsh has been awesome this season. Josh Minot, I've been impressed in moments. I just love these guys. I love the way they play. I love the energy. The focus can be a little all over the place. Ugo, I think, has done a good job of kind of reigning in just like pure activity and instead channeled into like, really productive directions. He's also a great, like, there's that lazy high school basketball player move where when someone tries to drive by you, you kind of matador them and then poke the ball away under their arm. He's like, sneaky, very good at it. Against the best basketball players in the world. I don't know how that's happening, but I love watching it.
- [68:35]
C
He annoys the piss out of people if they throw lazy entry passes. That's something that has really entertained me about him because NBA players just tend to. I'm not trying to. They tend to think everything's a foul, you know, so, like, I don't know. There was a play against Brandon Ingram where he just doesn't make catches easy. And I. I like guys like that. It's a very kind of Caruso. Carusonian quality that is just an annoying extra thing for a team that. That has high hopes.
- [69:02]
B
Yeah. Isaiah, do you have a Ugo Jersey yet, or are you just waiting get it tattooed to your body?
- [69:07]
D
Not yet. Once. Once. He's like finals mvp. That's. We'll get it done.
- [69:12]
B
Yeah, I'll buy you that tattoo.
- [69:15]
D
Beautiful.
- [69:16]
A
We're doing it live on stream. There's really no doubt about it.
- [69:22]
D
Next question is from Sloan. My twin brother and I would appreciate if you guys would help educate the youth with this debate. Harden versus Wade. I believe Harden is better than Wade. I believe ring culture has made people undervalue how good players are in the regular season. While my brother tells me Wade is a top three shooting guard, but neither of us watched him play in his prime as we were too young. Please explain who you think has had a better career.
- [69:47]
A
This question messed me up. I'm gonna be honest with you. Like, I went through a full. A full on crisis with it.
- [69:54]
B
Can we.
- [69:54]
A
Can we just do a little show of hands before we really dive into it about where we're landing with this? I think, think after some serious soul searching, my answer is Dwyane Wade. Do you guys feel strongly one way or the other?
- [70:06]
B
I was hardened, and I feel pretty definitive about it.
- [70:10]
A
How were you?
- [70:11]
C
I kind of. I think I kind of tilt a little towards Wade, but there's. There's so many factors to this. I think the first one is eras that, you know, in terms of them playing the position, Wade was on track to become a heavy load. You know, he was kind of playing as the pick and roll revolution was starting to ramp up. He starts to have injury problems. You know, his high. I think if you compare them at their peak, well, let's just look like early in the career I wrote this down. I mean, they are kind of polar opposites in the fact that Wade was sort of revolutionary in his. The art and sort of beauty in the way that he would get to the middle of the floor. He was a better finisher. And hard or Harden, on the other hand, revolutionized like. Like accessing space behind you in terms of. To create your jump shot, which, you know, that plays into. There were way more three pointers. Like, if you look at Wade in his first five seasons in the league, only attempted 333s. For contrast, Steph Castle, not considered a great shooter. In his rookie year, he shot 333 threes. So just to give an idea of how different the position is. So eras, I think, is the first thing that kind of came to mind for me.
- [71:20]
A
Me, the game's totally changed, and James Harden, to your point, is a huge reason why, like, we Credit Steph as being the, the one man three point revolution. There's a reason why Harden is just like right there at the top of the all time three point made leaderboard. And it's, it's a crazy thing what he has managed to do in carrying an offense and, and really at the height of his powers was a one man engine for the most efficient offenses in the league. There's just no way like arguing around that. James Harden. Harden has been an awesome player for an incredibly long time.
- [71:50]
B
I think this might just boil down to playoff success versus what you're describing right there. Whereas Harden did play a critical role, if not like minus Steph. One of the key roles in modernizing basketball to where it is right now. Like it's the sidestep stuff, it's just the threes and layups like whole like shot chart that was popularized based off of his Rockets teams or at least they took it to a logical extreme that no other team had. And so like I think he's almost discredited a lot for that because people have such a distaste for that style of play. Like we talk about like the LUCA types with disdain at a certain point because it's so like it's, it's kind of compounded with ball hungry to a certain extent. And so I think like that's part of it. But also the playoff stuff kind of corrupts that. But I look to longevity as another part of this as well. And Wade's last like four years or so practically after he left Miami the first time were pretty spotty at best. He got, I think he got one All Star bid after that and that was just like the farewell one they gave to him and Dirk. Whereas Harden just made the All Star team last year. Like I think he could still play for another three to four seasons after this. At what level I'm not sure. But like I think Harden's going. When we look at the body of work, it's going to be pretty hard to go against unless you just weigh the playoff success so much against him, which if, if you do, I can't really argue that he's been historically spotty and almost to a point where like I don't even know what the pier is. I don't know what the comp is for someone at that level. But God damn, I just look at like what he's meant to the game in terms of how it is actually played. And to me that matters a little bit more than Wade who excelled at a style that was just played at.
- [73:31]
A
The time, yeah, I think Harden is definitely more influential. There's really no debate about that at all for Wade. You're right, there is like a peak versus longevity argument because not only is Harden still putting up like 26 and 8 right this minute, even if it's for a Clippers team. That doesn't matter, Justin. He's already played more games than Dwyane Wade ever did. And this, I think the spottiness argument in the playoffs gets very interesting for me when you just think about the differences in their lowest moments of their careers. And for James Harden, it's like no shows in critical games. Like just does not perform in some of these games where his team absolutely needs him to perform. On the other hand, he has been historically a kind of iron man that Dwyane Wade never was. And so Dwyane Wade's lowest moments were often like later in those years being a little immobile off the ball or, or just being unavailable at various times. And so it's like how do you weigh being on the court and underperforming against being on the court and getting old or being on the court or. Or not being on the court at all? Like those are hard things to square against each other. I think what I, what ultimately wins me into Wade's camp is one that 09 Wade season I would put up against the best James Harden season. And so it's like if we're talking peak versus longevity, I think the Wade peak is about as good as individual superstar creation has been over the last 25 years. He's been right there with LeBron, with Steph or Westbrook or Harden or whoever you want to think about in that category. He's been awesome. Luka as and Jokic as well. Plus the playoff resume, which to me is not a rings argument so much as just like, like the 06 run is one of the great like crunch time closing pushes that we've seen maybe ever. And overall like does show up in those moments in a way that Harden, as we just alluded to, like didn't necessarily. And so the reliability, the peak and the fact that Dwyane Wade showed he can be the best player on the 06 team and also the like definitively the second best player on the heels teams that modulation in a way that, that Harden I think has been a good soldier in trying to do that at various times, including right now with Kawhi Leonard, but just hasn't been as successful in being the second best player on a highly effective team as Dwayne Wade was. And so if you can do all that and be a proven champion three times over, I like that's a very compelling case to me.
- [75:46]
C
Better two way player. No question about it. You know, Wade at his peak was super disruptive, getting him passing lanes. He was a trigger, a transition trigger on his own. Maybe one of the. He's in the argument for best like help, help rim protector for his position.
- [76:02]
A
Yes, ever.
- [76:03]
C
I mean you're talking about Jordan, you're talking about a very, very short list of guys. Rob hit it with the toggling, had more, you know, had a second life after the primary. Stuff doesn't work out. Where he became and he became an excellent cutter. He became somebody who really utilized those things, was ready to go early in his year. And you talked about them at their peak. You had to kind of go per 100 or per 75 to get sort of the style of the eras to kind of line up. But their efficien similar. Another thing too is that like I think the talent that they played with is another factor that you have to do here because you know, Harden at the beginning plays with that, the baby Thunder Harden at the, at the end with the, with that Nets team that was good, that never really got off the ground. Wade also kind of had the benefit of playing with some, with some really, really great, really talent. You know, if you look, I went back and I was watching an 05 game. He @ one point was on the floor with Shaq and Alonzo Borne, you know, and he played with bigs that like Harden just never did did. It's a complicated conversation. I still would lean. I, I can't think of any instances where Wade just like didn't show up. Big game player, big moment player. They're just very different. So I think you have to kind of calibrate it to find a middle ground to compare.
- [77:11]
B
Them. In a way I wish Harden had just gotten one. Like if Chris Paul doesn't get hurt against the warriors in the West Finals, like do we look at Harden's entire career? Do we think of all of his missteps? In part because that is the narrative of his career. Whereas we don't think that with Wade because he's known as a winner now. He's, he's done that by being more consistent in those moments. I don't want to take that away from him. But to a certain extent we do kind of funnel into what we expect of the player and what we like think of them in the broad sense, especially the longer and longer we get away from Wade than anything else. And so it is kind of like your mind. Like, how do we remember people at the same sort of.
- [77:49]
A
Time? Well, you know what that is, Justin? Tension, baby. Storytelling. But I mean, you're so right. It's like, did you overcome this thing or does it hang around your neck? And I think we're still at the point with Harden where all of those flaws, all of those shortcomings, all those games he didn't perform in, they just kind of hang over him and around him all the time. And Wade doesn't have any of that.
- [78:08]
B
Stuff.
- [78:08]
A
For. For Wade, it is champion without LeBron, champion with LeBron. Critical part of some of the most important Olympic teams ever, ever put together. Like, all that stuff kind of factors.
- [78:18]
B
In.
- [78:18]
A
And. And ultimately, I think what we're circling around is they are kind of in the same tier of consideration. It just depends on what you value and, like, what your tastes are. Also, in all due fairness, one thing we haven't really talked about at all. James Harden, just one of the best passers in modern NBA.
- [78:32]
C
History.
- [78:33]
A
Absolutely. And Dwayne Wade's like a, you know, he's really cool. Really, really cool playmaker in the.
- [78:37]
C
Ties were high in the playmaking sense, but not. Not quite the surgeon that Harden. Harden might be like the best low angle passer ever. Like, he's. He's way, way up there.
- [78:46]
A
On. I think if you want to talk about the best. The best passers since the year 2000, he's at least top 10. Might be making an argument for top five. And that, like, again, that is very compelling in and of.
- [78:56]
B
Itself. As we've been going through this discussion, I've just been replaying the Clippers getting blown off the floor in game seven last year just because they wouldn't get back in transition to the point where they had to come up with a T shirt for it. So maybe I need to completely change my.
- [79:09]
A
Answer. Maybe.
- [79:10]
C
So.
- [79:11]
A
Just.
- [79:12]
C
Just. No, it's just the last one. One tiny little tack on if we're gonna just teach. If there are young people listening to this, Dwyane Wade is one of the most aesthetically pleasing basketball players to watch of all time. Like Rob said, 0809, go watch it. That's your. That's your homework. Just a gorgeous. Just so fun to watch. He was. Especially when he was.
- [79:32]
B
Young. So anyway, Google D. Wade Euros and just sit there for a couple. Couple minutes. Couple days if you want. Want. Your pants won't fit.
- [79:39]
C
Afterward. God damn.
- [79:41]
A
Justin. All right, next.
- [79:45]
D
One. Okay. This question is from Samantha. Who are your favorite announcers and what criteria do you base this decision on? For me, they need to be either funny or informative. Legler has been awesome. He brings actual insight. Stan Van Gundy says at least three hilarious things per game. Should they focus more on engaging the audience or paraphrase a New York Times food critic, Ruth Reichl? Do you think their announcing should make you feel like you were there at the.
- [80:14]
A
Game? Hell, yeah. Samantha. Really? Really speaking my language. I mean, here's a question. Do you guys want to first.
- [80:22]
B
Just point out that I think this is, like, at least two women who have given questions to our.
- [80:28]
C
Mailbag? It sounds like flirting with Rob. Yeah, I didn't know if this was New York Times.
- [80:33]
A
Quote. Look, I look it. I think it's a compelling question. I think it's a great framing. Do you guys want something different from a national broadcaster versus a local broadcaster? Let's start there, like from a Legler or a stand Van versus, you know, someone who is just a workaday color commentator for the Portland Trailblazers, for.
- [80:53]
B
Example? Not necessarily. I just want the right combination of entertainment value, knowledge, and also, I think, like, the vocal quality, like the timbre of their voice, like a deep baritone or whatever it is that just like, really, like, hits you in the feels like, I want that from all phases. Maybe. Perhaps if you're watching a local broadcast, you want to be careful about not being too homerish, because that used to be a huge problem where, like, I think half of the league pass broadcasts basically work for the team at this. I mean, they all technically work for the team, but, like. Like they were carrying water.
- [81:31]
A
Regularly. Full on state.
- [81:33]
B
Media. It was. It's gotten a lot better. But yeah, I think you want someone who knows the team intimately and maybe roots for them at the right moment. Like when a big shot happened or big moment happens, you want them to, like, give the appropriate amount of enthusiasm. But for the large part, Rob, I kind of just want the same sorts of things. I want an.
- [81:49]
A
Entertainer. Yeah, I think I don't even want to feel like I'm at the game per se. I just want to feel like I am part of a communal event, watching the game. You know, when I think about, like, the Mike Breen double bang on that step three against okc, I don't feel like I'm in the arena. I feel like I'm in a sports bar. Like, that's the kind of vibe you want is like, how am I being pulled into something off of my couch or out of my context and feeling connected to other sports fans. I think obviously Breen is great at that. Harlan is great at that. That's really more of a play by play kind of job in terms of capturing the moment. And then for color, it's just more about like putting all that into thought, into humor. And I think the idea of informative or funny is a pretty fair framing. Like you really do just want one of those two buckets. And the best of the best do a little of.
- [82:34]
C
Both. Yeah. And you know, if we're separating out into Play by Play, just a few names I would add. I think there's like the schmaltz thing that really is nice. Like, I think like Mike Tirico makes me feel like I'm watching something really important. I enjoy when he's on there. Breen Bowlerjack, I think is somebody, one of the local guys. And I also think Calabro, I think is pretty solid in terms of terms of his highs. In terms of like the, the energy. I think Eric Collins goes in there too. But just in terms of, I mean, one of my favorites is Zion Eagle. I've just really enjoyed him and I think, I think he's one of the guys who entertains. He's not heavy handed with his, with his entertaining stuff, but I also think he's one of the more talented, heavy like entertainers because I, I thought back to this like during the NCAA tournament a couple of years ago and he's one of these guys that bounces back and forth. Coke Zero wrote this really convoluted ad read that they wanted the broadcasters to read on air. And people who watch college basketball are going to know what I'm talking about. And so you saw these guys try to read it and there was like this inflection that you just saw them fumble it over and over and over again. Ian Eagle was the only guy who read it and had the comedic sense to understand the rhythm of it and execute it. So I think there's something about that so shouts to him on that. And in terms of just. Yeah, it varies. I mean, I really, I think I've always been a really big fan of Brent Barry. I like him a lot. Marcus Johnson on the local broadcast, like him a lot. Legler, informative. Stan. But Stan, man is my, is my favorite. I know it was mentioned in the comments. He's like the NBA's uncle. He's like the uncle. Like you go over and you sit with him for like 20, 30 minutes and he tells you like two or three stories and like, he's like, what do you. You know, it's just. He's just perfect. He's.
- [84:11]
B
Great. Which is why Hubie was great too. Like, he pulls you aside and like, he, he informs you, like, he coaches you along, but doesn't do it where he's like, talking down to you at all. Stan has that quality, which is why I agree. I think Ian Eagle and Stan Van are the runaway, like, dude duo out.
- [84:27]
A
There. Yeah. I think the, the dream is you're eating your vegetables, but it feels like you're drinking a beer with a friend or with an uncle in this case. Right. It's like, how do you make that approachable? How do you. How do you make that feel like a process you want to be a part of? It's. It's a tough job. Like, honestly, play by play in itself. Immensely difficult. Staying on top of the action, color and finding the right moments to interject with exactly that balance of levity and insight. Very, very difficult even for coaches and players who know a shit ton about the game to not be over. Explaining, to not be walking us through every single thing. Like, it's. I think Sarah Coustock does a really good job of, like, explaining the game on a super legible, like, level, but without overindulging, without getting too flowery, without getting too, like, technical in terms of what she's walking through. Jim, Pete does a really great job of that too. Like, we're in a pretty good era. As you. As you were talking about, Justin, terms of the local broadcast, there are still some that maybe you don't need to argue every foul call in favor of your team, but I think the balance is getting better and.
- [85:29]
C
Better. My favorite thing about Hubie towards the end was number one, he seemed to get overwhelmed by. Whenever he would be like, oh, oh, like he would do that. He. If somebody drove, whoa, that was great. And then he had this template to be. Here's a guy who, blah, blah, blah, came into the league, shot 35%, said improved over. He had this like, real rhythm that he would do. And then if guys were like, reckless driving in.
- [85:54]
A
Anyway. Yeah, he.
- [85:55]
C
He. I miss him. Yeah. Love.
- [85:57]
A
Huey. Can I do some final shout outs before we move on in terms of broadcasters that I really like? Mark, follow on play by play in Dallas, one of the best in the business. Collaborate where they talked about. Matt Devlin in Toronto does a great job. Revan Knight on the Memphis broadcast. I really like a lot. I, you know, I'm, I'm just really finding. I used to Be a mute, the league pass experience kind of guy because the state of things was that bad. And I'm. I'm finding I'm unmute more and more and just really soaking up the color these.
- [86:23]
B
Days. I wish, though, we had more guys like Breen who level up from the local broadcast. I mean, MSG is probably one of the biggest broadcasts out there, but go from local to national and go back again because the experience is like seeing the nationally touring band at a local club. To a certain extent, I guess Michael Grady's getting to this point where he's on the national. I think he's very good. There's a reason why he's had a quick ascent from like, sideline on Brooklyn to where he is now now. But I do like that because Breen just takes on a different quality. He's a little bit more laid back and obviously he's had the relationship with Clyde forever. So he's like. He's just a little bit more sinking into a comfortable chair. And so I would like Stan Van to go from like Magic to the national broadcast and back again because we think he's kind of unhinged now on a national broadcast. Can you imagine what he's letting fly about? Like, no append up like post.
- [87:14]
A
Ops. God, I just need Diet Coke. Stan in full effect. Just. Just really rocking out his Magic.
- [87:19]
C
Roots. Let's get him policy on broadcast and things. Yeah. Love.
- [87:23]
A
Stan. All right, let's keep it.
- [87:25]
D
Moving. Next question is from Ben. You are a GM and picking out or picking to fill out your roster. Win this year. Do not factor in injury history or salary or positionalist need. Assume perfect health and plenty of cap space. You have a need for all positions. Choose between Kevin Durant or Kawhi Leonard. He had 55 tonight. Luca or Giannis, Jalen Brown or Donovan.
- [87:51]
B
Mitchell. So we're getting rid of.
- [87:55]
A
Injuries. Yeah. Injuries toggled.
- [87:58]
B
Off. And so Kawhi Leonard is still an incredible basketball player when he plays. Kevin Durant unfortunately is 37. Kawhi not in his prime per se, but still grasping to the point where he could dominate again game much like he did.
- [88:10]
A
Tonight. Yes. I mean, everything about how we talk about Kawhi is shaped by when he is available and when he isn't and how much money he makes and the burden that that puts on a team for a guy who's that unavailable. And if you wipe all that stuff away, he's just a fucking buzzsaw. Like, he's just awesome on the court. Basically every minute he plays so crazy to think that anyone opposite Kevin Durant would feel like a slam dunk pick, but I think I feel I can pick Kawhi Leonard pretty easily. Under. Under this. Either.
- [88:35]
C
Or. Yeah. If he. And if he's healthy, he's still a solid, great two A player. Still a big time shot maker. Yeah. It's just. It's kind of a shame in a way. So that one. That one is not hard.
- [88:48]
A
Yeah.
- [88:49]
B
Yeah. So the next one. Luca or Giannis? I went.
- [88:52]
A
Luca. I also went.
- [88:54]
B
Luca.
- [88:54]
C
Yeah. Interesting. I was thinking more two way on this one because I was thinking if I had my shot maker and my answer to follow. I love Luca. This was tough for me, but. But, oh, I. The idea of having Kawhi and Giannis, I'm. I'm.
- [89:08]
A
Down. Okay. This is a qu. So you're taking these guys in tandem. I was saying we're discrete situations. Were you thinking about that way too.
- [89:16]
B
Jp? I thought we were in a.
- [89:17]
A
Vacuum. Okay, so let's. Let's, let's. Yeah. Separate vacuum. Kyle, would you go Giannis or Luca? No Kawhi on your team.
- [89:24]
C
Sorry. Oh, well then, yeah. Luca then.
- [89:26]
A
Yeah.
- [89:26]
C
Okay. If I. I would love to.
- [89:27]
B
Give. Give a monologue here about how Luca needs to shut the up because his. His complaining is getting intolerable yet.
- [89:34]
C
Again. Kidding. It's just the same level for like five.
- [89:37]
B
Years. I think he coasted on the good vibes he got post trade because he was such a sympathetic figure. Everyone kind of just forgot about it or at least pushed it aside, and now it's just like, get back on fucking defense. Good Lord. But Giannis, he's kind of in this era of being a little petulant himself, so it's not like he really gets a lot of points in that category, but I would still go Luca. The offense is.
- [90:01]
A
Unbelievable. It's very fashionable this week to be taking those shots at Luka about the, like, complaining about the officiating, about his defense, about how he plays on or off the ball, whatever it is. I mean, look, I. I get it. All that stuff has been true, as Kyle said, for basically his entire career. When it comes down to it, I love Giannis, love everything about the way he plays. I think Luka does the single most important thing at basically the highest level. You can do it. And if you're doing that, I'm. I'm going to take you against most players.
- [90:29]
B
Frank, the last one is pretty.
- [90:32]
A
Interesting.
- [90:33]
B
Juicy. For this one, I almost need the context of the team. Whereas if I am starting from scratch, I think Eileen Mitchell, because I think he could be a number one scorer in the way that Brown has this year. But I think Mitchell can do better. If I need Brown as my number two, if I know I'm going to get somebody else to fill that void, he obviously slots in better. And so I get. If we're in this vacuum, I would lean Mitchell, but I truly want Brown because I'm hoping to get someone better than both of those.
- [91:02]
A
Guys. If you do pick Mitchell and you're presuming that he's going to be your first option, like you're picking up a fairly flawed first option, historically speaking, a guy who we've seen be hyper productive but run up against the wall pretty hard, like, is that even a good argument against someone who, as you said, Justin is like, been similarly productive for a better offense this season and also has shown he can be a really good second option, something Donovan Mitchell, at least for a long time now, has not really been asked to do. So frankly, who knows how successfully he would do it. Maybe that's unfair to Donovan. It's just I feel like I've seen him be a headliner and I don't always love the results. And with Jaylen Brown, I'm, I'm open to the possibilities. And yet again, kind of circling back to the Wade Harden thing. Like, I like a guy who can play both slots. I like someone who, who has the balance in their game to do that. Plus, plus, the Jalen Brown defense is not a significant part of this.
- [91:55]
C
Too. I'm interested by the idea of Mitchell being somebody who in most situations is sort of the presumed primary, but his optimal spot really is playing in that secondary role. He just hasn't had the opportunity because if you think back about his career, it's just like even in Cleveland, I don't know that that was necessarily the original plan. I don't, you know, the. It's hard to get back to like the Garland ascension mindset, like what it was a couple years ago or what their original thought process was. But yeah, Donovan, Donovan in the right situation, like Jalen just happened to be with Tatum, who's like the obvious implied number one there. So, yeah, maybe it creates this illusion that they're not on the same level, but they actually are. So in terms of the two way stuff, if we're assuming we're going to get another good player, I probably, I would lean.
- [92:41]
B
Jalen. Yeah. Here's a question. If you were to pop Evan Mobley onto each of their situations. So it was Evan Mobley plus Mitchell, Evan Mobley plus Brown. Which twosome would you.
- [92:52]
A
Prefer? I don't think that Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley have amazing pop off the screen chemistry, per.
- [93:00]
D
Se.
- [93:01]
A
No. And so. So I think I would take Jalen Brown and Evan Mobley as like the crux of a really physical. Well, sometimes physical and Evan Mobley's case, but ultimately a good catch all kind of.
- [93:11]
B
Defense. Yeah.
- [93:13]
C
You. The defense would be the selling point because I would there. I mean, if you think about Jalen. Jalen and Mobley's offensive chemistry, I don't really. Those pieces kind of don't.
- [93:22]
A
Really. I don't know. I mean, they don't really interlock at.
- [93:24]
C
All. You'd have to have a pretty. A pretty solid connector, I would think, between those.
- [93:28]
A
Two. You know, I, I feel like all this, like, I, I feel like I'm knocking Donovan Mitchell as we go through this. Donovan Mitchell is an awesome scorer, and as far as, like, we're going through the finer points of his game and ultimately, like, what holds him back sometimes, his great sin was really, he. He was awesome out of the gate and was charted on a course of like, well, we just need to give this guy the ball and get out of his way pretty much from the jump of his career. It's hard to hold that against him, especially when I never watch Donovan Mitchell play and feel like he's a selfish player. Like, I know. I know he shoots a lot. I know he has the ball in his hands a lot. To me, it usually comes from a place of pretty clear need in terms of what his team is asking him explicitly or implicitly to do. So it's not really his fault, but his game is a little more scoring oriented. And yet. Yet I don't know that I want him to be the go to scorer on a team that I'm hoping to take to a.
- [94:13]
B
Championship. This is also a really tough time to be answering this question where the Cavs are underachieving, where Mitchell is surrounded most of the time by three other all stars, plus a bench of like, pretty interesting guys at this point. I know, like, all of them aren't playing at once and all that, but at the same time time, like, the Celtics are overachieving because Brown was finally given the opportunity after sacrificing for so long to have his like, star moment and he's lived up to the expectations of it. Like, him playing free is a different experience than he's playing with Tatum, but I enjoy it probably more because it is really just like the unfiltered version of him. And so it's just, like, rewarding the guy who did it right versus the guy who isn't getting it done with a wealth of opportunity. It's really hard to have this right now, but I agree with you. We're probably underselling Mitchell because he's having an unbelievable year. This is probably the best year of his career thus far. The efficiency, off the charts. But there is something. Something all always nagging about him where it's just, like. It's just not quite right. And I don't know what it's going to take to. For it all to click.
- [95:17]
A
Together. Yep, that's a fair.
- [95:19]
D
Point. All right, last one, last question is from Abriel. Do you have any favorite basketball books that you would recommend? I just finished when the Game Was ours by Jack McMullen. It was, as the kids say, gas. My dad grew up loving Bird, so reading the book made me feel closer to.
- [95:37]
A
Him. I just want a clip of Isaiah saying as the kids say.
- [95:41]
B
Gas.
- [95:43]
C
Isaiah. Do you say that, Mr.
- [95:45]
A
Charisma? Yeah, I mix it in.
- [95:47]
B
Yeah.
- [95:48]
D
Okay. I wouldn't in this context, per se. Like, that's a bit clunky, but, like, yeah, some stuff's.
- [95:52]
B
Gas. Oh.
- [95:53]
C
Wow. What was the last book jumping in.
- [95:55]
A
Here? I want to know. The last book Isaiah read that was gas. What. What do we.
- [95:59]
D
Think? I'm gonna have to cut this. I'm not the biggest reader in the.
- [96:03]
A
World. Great. Gas me was.
- [96:06]
B
Gas. Yeah. So I think I have different answers for this. I know Rob was like, just stick to one, but I'm not gonna do that. So I think the seminal NBA book is Breaks of the Game, and I think all of us could recommend that just instantly because it's not only just one of the best NBA books ever written, but also I think the Go to text if you want to introduce basketball to someone.
- [96:28]
A
Yeah. Are we counting this for the square jar, by the.
- [96:30]
B
Way? No, I. I didn't even mention where it took.
- [96:33]
A
Place. I mean, but you're implying.
- [96:34]
C
It. I would even go more specific on that one. I think the Kermit Washington stretch of Breaks of the Game is the best stretch of any basketball, maybe sportsbook, where he explains the entire context of him before the incident. I think it's just. It's. I. I don't really. It's fairly peerless in terms of basketball writing, I.
- [96:52]
B
Think. I. I do think it could also be lumped into, like, the best journalism books in recent history. Like, it's that good. It definitely opened my mind to Halberstam, and I've gotten a bunch of books as a result of that. So I do wonder if you're trying to, like, get someone into basketball to harken back to an earlier question. I do also wonder if you want to get something a little bit more modern in order to really put them in the place and time that we are now. It's tough because, like, there aren't a lot of books being written to the degree that they were even like 10 years ago, because no one gets access anymore. So. But the. The book that I'm referring to for me that really did it for me was seven seconds or less, which is a Jack McCallum book about the Suns, which was not only good in its own right, but like, Unfettered Access, where he was like, literally on the bench listening to the huddles of assistant coaches. Which is wild for me to think about right now, considering that people are struggling to get like, one on ones with players and interviews, but also like, one of the best, most like, perfect time and place, like just the most fun team in recent history and the right time in order to talk about that team. So for me, that was that book. And if you want that version of that now, the closest thing I think you can get to is the Return of the King with. With wind, Horace and McMiniman. Just because, like, if. If someone's getting into basketball, they're probably interested in LeBron, and that's probably the best pull back the curtain of that era. Amazing call around, but, you know, have at.
- [98:16]
A
It. I mean, there's no shortage to your point. Like, they're being released and published in fewer numbers these days. And I would say the books that come out now, which are still quite good, are overwhelmingly more biography. It's more like deep dive on one particular star. That's a great way to get that slice of life or. Or slice of the game or the personality that is kind of defining the way basketball is played right now. One of my favorites, all time, the Art of a Beautiful Game by Chris Ballard. Extremely my shot, to say the least. Like, Chris is one of the best sports writers ever, full stop right there. And he loves basketball like. Like a pickup basketball sicko through and through. And that's what makes the book so good because it's just like a nuts and bolts straight into it. Look at what makes the best players the best at what they do. Like, why was Steve Nash able to see. See, this is what I'm talking about. JV knows ball. Like, what makes Steve Nash able to See everything on the floor. What makes Dwight Howard one of the best rebounders of all time? What made Kobe Bryant wired the way he was? It's like what if dedicated a whole chapter to each of these individual things and went item by item through what is defining the game at that time? One of the best ever do it. One of the best basketball books ever.
- [99:23]
C
Written. I I these are, these are excellent picks. You can't really mess with them. I would add just as like a historic talking about an inflection point of the way the game was taught and coached at the time. This is one of the most ba. This is like someone recommending Citizen Kane for movies. But I mean season on the Brink. I read that that this just this past summer because I knew I needed to. I was blown away just by how informative and it made me kind of be obsessed with night for a little while actually. Like I, I was like going on. I had, I had my algorithm got weird for a while because I was like watching IU coaches shows from the 80s where I was just like something will be referenced. I was just like, man, it just renewed my fascination with, with Bobby Knight. I want an anecdote here really quickly. It's like when I was a kid, I would get. My mom knew the public library and and I would, she would somet mom for a little bit and like let me chill at the library for an hour, a couple hours. And it got to the point where I so predictably would go sneak and read Bad as I Want to Be the Dennis Rodman biography that it got to the point where she would hide it from me or she would tell my mom or I remember specific occasions where I would go sneak and try to read it. And Sue Thomas was her name. She would be like, Kyle, you.
- [100:35]
B
Better not be reading the Rodman biography.
- [100:37]
C
Again. So that happened lot. I wanted to shout out a couple. I've got them kind of here actually coincidentally, just like if you're wanting to just learn like, like really, really Basketball and Paper by Dean Oliver is really incredible. We have brought our buddy Kurt Goldsberry wrote a really good. We have a lot of good eras books spaced out. Mike Prada's Prada's book and then my buddy Ben thinking Basketball is a really good book. So we have a lot of really good books on that front. I think we're in a really strong time for.
- [101:05]
B
That. I will say, like reading these books definitely takes your fandom to a different level. It's almost like you've committed to the bit, right? Like you're interested in a hobby, but once you start picking up books, especially nowadays, because nobody picks up books, you're really committing to a lifestyle because it just really deepens whatever fascination you have with something. I guess I'm selling books now. You should read kids. But no, I just, I feel like when I think back to, like when I really became like a fan of sports and first and foremost it was Moneyball, because that just blew my mind. And all of a sudden I was like in a different level. And then when I like, really adopted, basketball is like my identity, I guess at this point it was like getting into books. Bill's book is front and center in that and just a couple other ones. Like, that breaks up the game. And so like, yeah, if you really. To hearken back to the earlier question about getting into basketball, if you are interested in this lifestyle, and I hope you are, if you're else in this podcast, podcast, pick up a book.
- [102:04]
A
Kids. It's Reading Rainbow. I would love a Justin. A Justin Barrier read along segment or standalone podcast. I would buy a.
- [102:12]
C
Fire. He's just right by the.
- [102:14]
A
Fire. I would say smoking jacket. Let's go. I feel like we could do.
- [102:17]
B
This. I'm down now. Could we, could we expense the smoking.
- [102:21]
A
Jacket? No doubt. I approve. As your manager, I.
- [102:24]
B
Approve. That's it.
- [102:27]
A
Isaac.
- [102:28]
B
Yeah. Thanks so much for being our voice of God throughout this entire.
- [102:31]
D
Pod. No problem. I just want to beat the I don't read books allegations. Boys Among Men by Jonathan.
- [102:37]
B
Abrams. That book was.
- [102:39]
A
Good. Yeah, that book was.
- [102:40]
B
Good. We love John. All right, that's it for us. We're off on Wednesday because it's New Year's, so Happy New Year's, everyone. Just bring it in. We're bringing it in. We're not ringing it.
- [102:51]
C
In. Right upper court for.
- [102:53]
A
Us. Yeah, I think you could do both. You can ring, you can bring, do whatever you like, you know, in the privacy of your own.
- [102:57]
B
Home. That's right. So we'll be back Sunday and then we're on a regular schedule as per usual. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely for walking us through this exercise and for producing us all year round. Thank you to Victoria Valencia for the same and thank you to Ben Cruz for the same as well. So we'll talk to you on Sunday. See you next time. Must be 21 + and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + and present in D.C. kentucky or Washington, Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-87-7-8, HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New.