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- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
- [00:06]
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What's Poppin Real ones. Logan Murdoch here, Howard Beck and Raja Bell and a few Rogers return. We basically just asked the biggest questions about the finals and get them answered. What do we think? It's a big finals retrospective. Last pod we gave you the, the, the in the moment perspective. It was a little loopy. It was awesome. It was all those things. But now that we kind of have cooler heads, we want to bring Roger back into the fold and kind of just like, just shoot the man. We talk about the Finals itself. We get a really animated discussion about Wimby and just his, his villain arc maybe, and then talk about Mike Brown, talk about Darren Fox. Just kind of regroup and just do a little level set. Went a little long. This podcast, it was a lot of fun though, man. It was great to see Roger back in the fold. It was great to have our brothers back, and it was fun, man. Without further ado, Cliff, Victoria, play the theme music. What's poppin' Real ones? Howard Beck over there, our brother, our guy, our homie, our big. My big homie. Roger Bell is in the motherfucker house. What's up, man? Missed you. How you doing?
- [01:23]
A
Chilling? Yeah, I'm doing good, man. Good to be back off the road. Like, everything is good.
- [01:28]
B
It was good.
- [01:29]
A
Good. Couple weeks on the road with my son Ty.
- [01:31]
C
The whole world has changed since we last saw you. The Knicks won the championship.
- [01:34]
A
Nothing. I know that's. Nothing's the same, man. My wife is as big a Knicks fan as there is, so, yeah, we, I, I mean, like, it's, it's a, it's a good time to be a, A New York native, a fan of the Knicks, I would imagine the Tri State area, everybody kind of claims a little bit. Congratulations.
- [01:53]
B
What was that like for you, though, man? Like, we, we've talked about Brunson, we've talked about Wimby throughout this postseason. But, like, what was your experience watching the Finals the last two games four and five while we were gone? What was that like? What was the biggest things that stuck out for me?
- [02:09]
A
Yeah, shoot. I don't know. It was, it was hard for me because, like, I was, I was in gyms, you know, so I wasn't getting. I was at the NBA top 100 camp, and then I was at section seven in Arizona. So, like, I wasn't always able to sit there and really watch a game the way I needed to watch a game. But, but, you know, in, in fairness, I can't break it down like that because I just be making shit up. But I, what, what stuck out to me was just the resiliency overall of the Knicks squad. I do think I made a bit of a mistake with how Jalen was going to be able to figure out offensively how to be himself. You know, I thought that the spurs had done such a great job on Shea and he never seemed to get a great beat on it. I thought Jaylen would just quite frankly struggle a little bit. I still thought the Knicks would be okay, but I thought he would struggle. You know, I think the spurs showed a lot of the things that we came into the playoffs worrying about whether they would rear their head in terms of inexperience and just lack of depth of experience on that team from the top to bottom, I think showed up in ways that cost them and that's to be expected. I think quite frankly, the fact that it didn't show up more prevalently earlier in the playoffs is kind of remarkable. But I think all of those things were kind of takeaways for me. And then the city, I mean there's just. The city was on fire that was out of control.
- [03:36]
B
Yeah. It's so funny that, you know, the, the, the Jalen Brunson discussion is. Has so many different elements that we can go to, right? He's the. Out of all of the players that are, that are, he is compared to the Lucas, the, the Anthony Edwards, you know, all these smaller guards, he's the first one to win a this episode
- [04:00]
D
is brought to you by Ferrero. Soccer's international tournament is here and Ferrero is going all in. Enter for your shot at a range of prizes just by buying your favorites like Tic Tac Fresh Mints, Cool minty and simple. Or Halo Top ice cream loaded with crave worthy mix ins in every bite and half the calories of leading competitors. Go all in. Buy any two Ferrero brands and you could win $1,000,000. Official rules apply. Learn more at goallinandwin.com
- [04:31]
B
title and one of the things that we talked about throughout this postseason, Raja and you in particular, we're talking about just like small guards and can they get to it right? Like and can you win with a small guard when you know, and we know this about San Antonio, they were basically just blitzing Brunson any chance that they got right. What do we learn about what is how a small guard can be successful in this league? And like what did he show you just from that type of standpoint where you know they are blitzing him and it seems to not matter matter down the stretch of games, right? Like. Cause that was the biggest thing, right? It was. The spurs were going every quarter except for the fourth throughout this whole series. Like, how. How did you. How did you see that going?
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A
Yeah, I've never been. The small guard can't win, and people are going to immediately be like, oh, yes, you did. But that's not what I. Two small guards. You. You're not winning. One small guard, like, small guard, they've won. I mean, Isaiah Thomas won. You know, like, people. People. I'm just trying to think. Steph, Tony Parker, like, small.
- [05:37]
B
You.
- [05:37]
A
You could have. Now, small is relative, right? But, like, that's. It's not a problem. It's when you put two small guards out there, that becomes that defensive. Real defensive liability that I. Then I start to wonder whether you can get it done. I think whenever you have your primary player being a smaller guard, you just have to get the recipe right around them. The roster has to be built in a way that can account for that and, And. And support that. And to a large degree, I think the Knicks, as a collective were supporting Jalen in a way that he needed to be supported when he was trying to work his way through figuring out the best way to attack what San Antonio was doing to him defensively until he got his feet under him and. And. And then just started saying, fuck it. Like, here's what they're giving me. I'm going to go ahead and take that. And so that, for me, that's what it becomes, right? Like, if your primary offensive threat is going to be a relatively small guard that has some. And this isn't a Jalen thing. This is just in general, that is also not great defensively. You just have to get it right with the rest of that roster and the way you're built. And the Knicks did that.
- [06:48]
D
This episode of the Ringer NBA show is presented by Ferrero. The world is watching. Go all in for your team this summer with Ferrero. Enter for the chance to win a range of prizes just by purchasing your favorite treats, like Kinder Bueno with an irresistible chocolate wafer and creamy hazelnut filling. Or Keebler Chips Deluxe cookies with indulgent and rich chocolatey chunks. Or Ferrero Rocher squares with crunchy hazelnuts and milk chocolate wrapped in iconic gold. Go all in. Buy any two Ferrero brands and you could win $1 million. Official rules apply. Learn more at Go all in and win dot com.
- [07:23]
B
It's always funny to just see, like, star players in general kind of work their way through the Finals Right. And you know, you've seen it, you know, particularly I saw it firsthand with Steph. You know, you've seen it, I'm sure with Tony Parker and other guys where they have to find their way within a series because the finals are a different beast. Where this is the best scouting that you are going to get against your game. Right. And that's why you always see like the first couple of games of a final, especially from a star player or a number one option is always a feeling out process. Right. You saw that with Brunson when he took 31 shots. Then he finally kind of got his rhythm towards the end of the game and you know, game two, he was, you know, seven of 25, still won the game. But then you see him kind of figure his way through a series. Like, what's the scouting like during those types of environments? And how do players kind of navigate their way through? Because he goes from, you know, the first game, shooting 12 of 31 from the field in the final game, he scores damn near half their points. Right. So like how did, how do you, how do you, how have you seen players like that kind of figure their way through series look great?
- [08:29]
A
Great players figure things out pretty quickly. Sometimes it's on the fly in the middle of a game, you know, sometimes it's from game to game. You know, typically what, what, what happens is you're, you're getting, you're getting these looks that, that they just confusely confuse you, like fractionally. We're talking about split seconds of, of decision making time that are the difference between whether you can execute something and get this clean look off or make the pass that's going to lead to a clean look or not. And if I can freeze your brain for that split second as a, as a defensive scheme, I've won, I've done my job. And so sometimes it's as simple as going back to that film and a great player looking at it and realizing, yo, that's. That's not exactly what I thought it was. Like, this is available to me over and over again and if I just commit myself to doing this and that would change from scheme to scheme. Right. Like, I think you saw Jalen, especially late in the game. Like there's a clip with his dad saying like, yo, just go. Because he could go, like he could get by. But he was doing a lot of like not going at different parts of the series because of what he thought was going to be behind. Right. Like Wemby will do that to you. Like he'll the that 7 6, like Phantom is out there somewhere, and if you can't really see him in your peripheral, you got to be afraid of him, you know, coming and getting that shot. But then he just decided to just go at times. And sometimes it's as simple as just seeing the film and saying, oh, I didn't see this in real time, or I did, but I was a little, you know, I was kind of second guessing myself. But I'm just going to keep taking that and see if it bears fruit. And then they've got to adjust to it. Right. But, like, I want to be fair again. I. I didn't do a great breakdown of those last two games, but that's what it felt like to me. It was like he's going back and he's watching film and he's realizing that, like, this isn't any thing that he's never seen before, necessarily. He's just got to realize what's happening and how he can take advantage of that and then just be committed to taking advantage of that.
- [10:43]
B
Yeah, I remember there was one theory that sticks out. Went to your point about, you know, players kind of taking the lid off of a shot blocker. And I'm thinking about like the 09, I think it was conference finals, Lakers, Nuggets, where Birdman was like, shot blocking Savon at that time, right? And it was kind of like. And everybody said throughout that playoffs, and I remember Shannon Brown caught him on a fast break and just in his face, right? Just dunked all in his face. And that opened the floodgates for the rest of the team to just like, not be as intimidated with Birdman as they once were. Like, you know, I think Lamar Odom caught a body during that, during that series as well. But what I'm saying all that to say is, like, when you see your star player or a player kind of take it to a shop, like in a series like that, who's intimidating? It really opens it up for everyone else. And I thought you kind of saw that as the series progresses. Like, you know, the Knicks stopped being scared of Wimby after a certain point in time, and they would just go, whether they were blocked, getting blocked or not. And that's something that OKC just didn't do. They never kind of got to that point where they were like, okay, we're not scared of him anymore. We don't even care if we get blocked. We know we're getting good shots and it's all good. So it was kind of great to just see that maturation through a series that you saw from New York. And, you know, they're a veteran team, and there are a lot of more factors involved in that.
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A
But.
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B
But I want to go to Howard real quick.
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A
Can I just say this? Because I'm sorry. I feel bad, Howard, but, like, I think you're right. Like, the two players that did that, and Anobi took him to the cup twice. Once he bodied him and dumped on him, and once he just went by and said, I'm not even thinking about you. And Cat did it to him a few times on the. Hey, you gonna guard me straight up? I'm just gonna walk you to the basket and put you in the hole. And so I would agree with you.
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C
That's all.
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A
I.
- [12:29]
B
It's like.
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A
It's like.
- [12:30]
B
It's like punching Debo bro at the end of the movie. It's like Wimy is a bully, especially throughout this. This post is. And you showed that both with his shot blocking and also kind of his. His. You know, let's just be honest, and we'll get to that in a second. But, Howard, I want to talk about the lessons that we can, you know, get from this postseason in this finals, right Beginning of the season, it's wild. We all just assumed that a Western Conference team was going to win this championship, right? And rightfully so. The Western Conference, on paper, have the better teams. But it seemed like during this time, this. The Western Conference team just beat each other's ass. And by the time that they got to the Eastern Conference, there's no excuse. The Knicks won this series fair and square. Not even taken away from them. But what lessons should we take from this season as an Eastern Conference, by extension, the Knicks? There's so many ways we can go with this, but let's just start with that. What was the biggest lesson that we can get from this Knicks title and how we kind of, you know, look forward to the next season and make maybe better predictions.
- [13:32]
C
I honestly think after eight champions in eight years, all of them with a fairly unique kind of evolution and storyline, that it's now almost futile to say, well, if the Knicks are the champions now, and they did it this way, built this way with this kind of team and this kind of star player, what can others do to try to replicate it? And it's like, I don't know that any one model is replicatable. Like, I. I just don't. Like I. I did the Knicks start this run by snatching a guy who's a free agent who is a Secondary type player who hasn't been an All Star, who's had some nice moments, but he's not a superstar.
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A
He's.
- [14:16]
C
You're paying him less than the max. Nobody knew at the moment that they signed Jalen Brunson, maybe not even Jalen and Rick Brunson, that he would become this. Right? So you can't replicate that now. You can look for diamonds in the rough. You can be opportunistic. You can say, ooh, that team, Dallas Mavericks is underestimating, undervaluing their own guy. Let's go grab him. We think there's more there. Cool. I don't know how many opportunities there are to do that in this league. I, I think, you know, this kind of. It's just like with, you know, Jokic and Brunson both being second round picks who become Finals MVPs. The formula doesn't then become, find a guy in the second round and hope he becomes an mvp.
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B
It also could become, it also could become like, I think about Shane Gilkas, Alexander last year, right? Is another guy like, oh, yeah, we like him. He's. This is undervalued on your end. We're going to trade for him.
- [15:05]
C
All right. So my buddy Steve Elardi, former analytics guy in the league, who I've cited a couple times on this podcast, he had sent me this observation the other day. Like, last eight Finals MVPs, their average draft position, 15th. So that's Brunson at 33, Shea at 11, Jalen Brown at three. So there's the rare, kind of, like, weirdly rare top three pick who became MVP, Yokich at 41, Curry is 7, Giannis 15, LeBron number one, of course, and Kawhi, 15. So in our, in our eight year run of eight champions in eight years, eight different finals MVPs, you've got, you know, three guys who were drafted in the top 10. Two, excuse me. And everybody else is, is outside the top 10 or. Excuse me. Yeah, it was three in the top 10.
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D
Yeah.
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C
And then a bunch of guys who were in the teens or, or, or a couple second rounders. So, like, good luck saying, like, we'll just find our Giannis or we'll find our Kawai or our YIC or our Shea or it. Like scouting is super important. Development is super important. But I think the most important lesson of this Knicks era is once you get the guy and you realize, ooh, we didn't know that we had the guy. Capital T, capital G. At the time that we signed him, we had hopes, but Once you see him evolving into that, you do everything possible to surround him with the right kind of players, Right? And I remember in real time, like, I loved the ojananobi trademark. It was painful for Knicks fans because they loved Emmanuel Quickley and they still had hopes for RJ Barrett. And flipping those guys for an anobi who had an injury history. The Raptors were a little down on him because they knew he wanted, you know, a max deal that they were not willing to give him because they didn't think he was worth it. They saw him as, like, great defender who can shoot the three, but, you know, puts the ball on the floor. You start to cringe. Like, they weren't sure he could be that. That complete player. And the Knicks are like, effort. This guy's the perfect guy to have. We have Jalen Brunson, who's going to be a defensive liability, but a great offensive engine. We need OG Anunoby, we need Mikhail Bridges. And then Knicks fans are cringing again. And I'm not blaming Knicks fans. Like, a lot of people cringed at the draft capital cost of getting Mikhail Bridges, but you needed those guys. You needed guys like that. Mitchell Robinson, the only Knicks draft pick who was a serious part of this rotation, and he was from the previous administration. He's one of the lone holdovers. They got rid of everybody because they saw what they had in Jalen Brunson, and they said, these are the kinds of players we need around him. That it happened to also be a couple of Villanova guys. All the more, you know, great for
- [17:38]
B
your chemistry west influence right there, you
- [17:41]
C
know, a little bit, probably, but it was just. It's a really smart, methodical, patient build, an opportunistic build. And those are. None of those are descriptors you would have used for the Knicks in the way they operated for the prior 20 years. But it. That is, if there's a lesson that's kind of the lesson for the rest of the league is, you know, you. You have to be a little bit methodical and patient. And then, you know, once you see the opportunity, oh, shit, there's an OG Ananobi available. Boom. Let's go get them. I don't care what it costs on the cost part of it, though, by the way, I've said this before, but I want to just reiterate this. This was not a big market stomping everybody else with their incredible resources and influence and whatever. They didn't attract, like, yeah, guys like, playing in New York, but they got Jalen Brunson. Mostly because they identified him, but also, yeah, he had a preexisting relationship with Leon Rose, who was his dad's agent and is Jalen's godfather and all this other stuff. It wasn't about New York, it was about relationships. But their payroll was seventh this season. Now it's still top 10, but it's seventh. Not number one, not number two, not number three. This was in a team that was just like throwing its money around. Now it's going to get higher. Like the payroll is going to keep growing. They're going to start having tax concerns and second apron concerns and whatever. But this was not some big market build. This was a. Any team with, with lesser resources in any market could have done something like this. And so I think that's important to note too.
- [19:10]
B
You know, I thought about, or I thought about a lot about the Washington Wizards due during this run, and I think teams are just. Sorry. The reason why I did, though, is because. No, the reason why I thought about it is because, like, I think that's just going to be the new model, right? Like, I think that you're right. And like, I think the teams need to have a vision for what they want to do. Identifying players and building around them, right? But I think what you're also going to see and it reminds to be seen, you know what the Washington Wizards holding this. But I thought about their Trae Young trade, whatever. They, you know, I don't know if they think that he's going to be Brunson and what the future is going to be, but I think you're going to start seeing a lot more flyers being taken, right? And just a lot of teams just saying, fuck it, like, let's just try it. Especially with the Eastern Conference the way it is, right? And like, hey, maybe we can do that and maybe we can get into the mix and it's a longer process. What the Knicks showed us that wasn't overnight, this is like the second. Second. How would I say this, the second infancy or the second version of this type of team, right? Because they traded for Cat and. And they did make Metamorph have a metamorphosis as they, you know, went on. But I thought about the Wizards in that, like, I think they're the model of what teams are going to be because not all teams are going to get this right. But I think in the new collective bargain agreement, a new era that we're in, you're just going to have to just try and pivot. I think this is how we're going to see and I'm curious to see what type of movement is going to happen, but I'm also curious to see like, how many of the bad teams just try to use this model and just kind of maybe just try to short circuit and be like, hey, we're just going to do this really quickly just to get better. Because the Knicks did it. When not actually seeing, hey, this was a methodical multi year process, so we'll see. I think it was just a good and a bad thing, but I thought about the wizard because I was like, oh, okay. It's a curious move to get Trey Young, but maybe their vision is like, hey, maybe Bucket is a, it's a, it's a wide open Eastern Conference. Let's just take our chances. And you know, we might be validated because the Knicks did a version of
- [21:11]
C
this, maybe less wide open than it was. Right. Because the Knicks are now champions and the Celtics are still formidable to say the least. And we'll see what they do if they end up with Giannis or not. And the Pistons may be one player away from being like super good and they were a 60 win team last year and the Pacers are getting Halliburton back and are going to be right there in the mix. So I'm not sure how, how wide open it is. I, I think there are multiple contenders. We can call it that way. Sorry, Cliff.
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B
No, no, Sixes too, bro. Come on, bro. Stop, stop.
- [21:43]
C
Listen, Cliff, you, you know how, how much benefit of the doubt at my own expense of my reputation, I was giving your team for the last year or two. I'm, I think I'm done for now. The, the top of the east is now really formidable. And, and I think that's interesting. The, the Trey Young thing is interesting, Logan, because another small guard, right? Like it's not. And it's like not like they're building around him because they also got Anthony Davis. I'm not sure how long either of those guys are going to be there. So quick asterisk on all of this. I don't know what the Wizards are actually doing, but if those guys stay, they are trying to accelerate their build. They've got, you know, a great pick coming and more talent and they've got some, you know, the Alex Sars and, and everybody else's. I don't know what to make of the Wizards yet, but they are, they are banking on another small garden. Trey Young. Quick note. Quick. Can I just go back to the small guard thing for a second?
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B
Yeah.
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C
Because a Friend of mine was hitting me right after, like, literally hours, I think, after the championship and saying, or maybe it was the day before, but it was like, why, why are we stuck on this thing? Didn't Steph already disprove it? Didn't Isaiah already disprove it? And. And so I had to like, step back and think about it for a minute and why we're still stuck on this and maybe we'll be less stuck on it now that Jalen Brunson has led the Knicks to the title. I think Jalen's listed to like six two, six three. But like, that's a really, really generous. Like, I've stood next to him and I don't think he's that much taller than me and I'm a tad under 6ft. So Steph is listed at 6:2. Isaiah is listed at 6:1. Isaiah Thomas had Dennis Rodman, Joe Dumars, Bill and Beer, Mark Aguirre, Rick Mahorn, you know, for those two championships, some combination of those guys. So, yeah, small guard, but like, with Brunson, you had the right guys around you. And in Isaiah's case, like serious hall of Famers and like, like Dennis Rodman, freak of nature and like an all time unique player. Steph, you know, he's the greatest shooter of all time, so he's an anomaly anyway. So you can be, you can be short as long as you're short and the greatest shooter of all time. That would be the lesson of Steph also having the second greatest shooter of all time and Klay Thompson next to you, also having one of the greatest defenders of all time and Draymond Green there. And oh, oh, yeah, for, for championships two and three, Kevin Durant, who is way taller than six two. So like, there were. There are circumstances around both Steph and Isaiah, but there's a reason these are rare. Because it is harder to build a championship team around a small guard. Like saying it's never is the problem. Never. You can't, won't never happen. That's the problem is being absolutist about it. Is it harder? I think, yeah. I think demonstrably over 80 years of the NBA, you can see that it is. The other thing to remember historically is that when Michael Jordan won in the 90s and then won again and again and again and again, that was considered a seismic shift because the league had been dominated by the Kareem Abdul Jabbars and the Wilt Chamberlains and the Bill Russell and oh yeah, Magic and Bird come along, but those guys are like you know, 6, 7, 6, 8. And also had, like Magic, had Kareem Bird, had Parish and Male. So Michael at 66 as a shooting guard, building a championship team, a dynasty around a shooting guard was unheard of until Michael did it. And so that was considered a seismic shift at the time. Even so, the size mattering part of this, it's understandable. Like, this is the history of the NBA. We, we are still stuck on this thing about small guards in part because we had a model for a very long time. You needed a dominant big or then you needed a Michael Jordan or Michael Jordan clone. Kobe Bryant, even then Kobe had Shaq.
- [25:13]
B
I think you just need great players. I think that's the, I think that's the model here. It's hard to build, it's hard to build teams because there's a, there's a, there's a small amount of big players.
- [25:21]
C
If you, if you sorted the MVP, the finals MVPs of every finals in history by height, the number of guys you're going to get at the bottom end of there in the 6 to 62 range, like, that's going to be the smallest category.
- [25:37]
A
Well, for a long time, look for, For a long time, they didn't ask six two players to be primary scorers. Like, that was not what a point guard's role was through decades of the NBA existing. Like, your job was to set the table and let the big do the work or let the wing do the work. So I do think we're in a, in an interesting, like era of basketball where people are realizing, you know, that, that. That those guys have offensive weaponry in their repertoire too. Doesn't mean it's any less easy for them to win at that size. But like, that they can be primary scorers in a way that generations past. They weren't just even interested in hearing that, you know, like AI AI was. AI AI gets. They got the recipe wrong around AI. Like, what they tried to do was just make it all defense and all you need a. You need real offensive weaponry with that primary scorer so that when they make that blanket defense for him, you have an OG or a cat or someone that can supplement to the tune of 35 or whatever that looks like to keep him honest. And we didn't have that. I just. Look, Tony is another one. Like, if you go back and look at that team, you know, clearly it's Tim Duncan's team. But like, on any given night, Tony Parker was the problem. Like, he was an absolute problem.
- [27:03]
C
He's Finals mvp.
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B
Yeah, look at the foundation. Yeah. Yeah.
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A
Look at the Chauncey Billups led Pistons. Like, Chauncey is six two, six three. I mean, they had a real team. No disrespect to Rip and all of those dudes, but, like, Chauncey was kind of an engine of what they did. Like, it can happen. You just have to get the recipe right. And we're in an, we're in an age now where, quite frankly, you might see it more and more because a lot of these dudes are being taught to play the game, not just as a facilitator. Like, you're having more people come in to this league. Young blood with the Sixers. What's what? Sorry, dude. Why am I drawing a blank? VJ Maxi. Well, how big is Maxi? Six three, six two.
- [27:47]
B
Six three six two. Maybe six four on a good day.
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C
I don't think six four listed at six two.
- [27:53]
A
Yeah. And if you're listed at six two, like, you might be six one. So, like, I've never stood next to him. I don't know. But, but the point is, like, you're, you're in an era where that's going to be more accepted and you're going to have more people willing to swing at someone at that size that is really, really good at putting the ball in the cup and then trying to build around that special talent. So you might see it more. I don't know.
- [28:17]
C
I, I, I, I did want to add one other quick thing here just as an observation, because I think once, you know, Brunson has this absolutely incredible Game five and an absolutely incredible last eight minutes of Game five to clinch the championship Finals MVP worthy of all of it. Worthy of all the accolades. He was amazing. Lost in all of this is that the spurs actually did a pretty damn good job on Brunson for most of the series and especially the first three quarters of most of those games. It was the fourth quarters of the final minutes of games that they gagged Jalen Brunson. Five games in the NBA Finals, he shot 43% on twos. That is a career low in any playoff series for Jalen Brunson. By, by a pretty decent measure, 19 assists in the series, a career worst. Now it was just five games, excuse me, 23 assists, 19 turnovers in five games. That is a career worst. And he's had longer series than that. So 19 turnovers in five games is pretty bad. Pretty. Point being, and especially through the first, like, three or four games I had done this exercise, like, all of these things were, were among his career worsts, field goal percentage, turnovers, assists. They were doing a good job of bottling him up. Except if occasionally he'd say, you, I don't care what you're doing to me. I don't care if Wemby's standing there. I don't care if Castle's on me. I don't care if Harper's on me. Like, I don't care how many great defenders you have to throw at me. It's my time, and I'm doing my thing. And that is the greatness of Jalen Brunson. It's that you can. He can get bottled up or a little rattled or. Or maybe not rattled. They. They did have him in. In tough places to make, you know, taking and missing tough shots. But when it's winning time, that's what that dude is wired for. And that's the part that you cannot quantify, no matter what his size is or anything else. Like, that's the greatness of Jalen Brunson. But they did do a pretty damn good job on him. Also, not for nothing, of course, Wemby is the key to that, that defense. And you see the on off numbers every time he sat. Like, they win the minutes he's on the court, they lose the minutes he's off the court. But in fourth quarters, he's gassed. And again, if you go quarter by quarter on Wemby's personal net rating, it's incredible, off the charts. Plus in the first quarter, it's a little weaker in the second, third quarters, and it falls off a cliff in the fourth quarter because he was gassed. And so, you know, there are two. Still two sides of the equation here. And this is a case where the spurs could not muster enough of what made them, of what got them those leads. They could not sustain it in those fourth quarters because they were gassed, inexperienced,
- [30:50]
A
both, whatever, it's the same. I mean, it all goes. That all goes together. That's. That's.
- [30:55]
C
Yes.
- [30:55]
A
Gassed, inexperienced. Like, this is when Wemby came into the league. Like, this is what people were saying. Like, I think when. When some of us older people said his body, like. And it didn't manifest itself in regular season, him being hurt or anything like that. There was a lot of people, you know, saying, oh, that was not. That's. That. That wasn't going to be an issue. But that is something that gets better over time. Like, he came into the league and it got better to this year, and it was incredible. But it will have to take another jump in terms of just his overall strength and and, and ability to absorb the type of punishment that he has to absorb over the course of a season to ultimately be in the type of condition to finish those games. So I just think that's, that's a, that's a young player on his arc. Those two things go hand in hand,
- [31:42]
E
you know, Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued Ask your doctor about Zeppbound Tirzepatite, the first and only FDA approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea OSA in adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5 or 15mg injection. Zepbound contains Tirzepatide and should not be used with other Tirzepatide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing pregnant, plan to be or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor, call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbound.lilly.com this episode is brought to
- [33:15]
F
you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced Wi, Fi, phone, TV, mobile services plus 24. 7 US based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business, so visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by Weathertech. Buying something for dad Usually Goes the same way every year. Guessing, second guessing, ending up with something that collects dust on a shelf. Here's a better idea. WeatherTech. It's the kind of gift he'll actually use. WeatherTech offers unmatched vehicle protection from floor liners and seat protectors to the cup phone and cargo liner. And no, a gift card isn't a cop out. It's just practical, like Weathertech. Skip the guesswork this year. Visit weathertech.com to get your Father's Day gift today.
- [34:10]
C
For sure.
- [34:10]
B
Hey, man, I tell you what. The monks better implement some conditioning drills this summer with Wendy the Monks.
- [34:17]
C
Monks got to get him in the gym.
- [34:18]
B
They got to get him in the gym. Okay?
- [34:19]
A
They need to get his ass on that block.
- [34:21]
B
Yeah, listen.
- [34:23]
A
All right, listen. I know how crazy that sounds.
- [34:27]
B
No, no, no.
- [34:27]
A
I know how crazy it's discussion right
- [34:29]
B
now because there was some other stuff Nick's related that we will get back to. But I want to have the WIMBY discussion right now. I'm going to say my observations, Roger, and I'm going to throw them your way. There was, I think ever since after Game 1 of the conference finals when he had that 41 and 24 game, there was a lack of aggression from Wimby throughout the postseason, I believe, right? And we talked about it. Even the start of this Knick series, right, where it was like there was a lot of settling for threes, There was a lot of just indecision. The lane was right there. When I remember, I think I said this after game one or two. I'm like, yo, cat is giving you the lane, bro. Go to the cup. And there would be maybe one or two plays where he would like kind of finally figure it out. And usually it was when the spurs were down that he would maybe get a dunk with the left hand. And then there was another thing where, I mean, the port point guard play in this finals from the spurs was just atrocious. Like, it's like point guard specific play. And I know Dylan Harper played really well. We'll get to him in a minute. But like, the combination of Darren Fox and Stefan Castle in terms of trying to organize an offense was really, really bad. And if he had. If Wimy had a point guard, I believe it's like, yo, get your ass in the block. I'm not passing you the ball until you get your ass in the block. The Knicks went super small and he still wasn't dunking on their faces, right? Like, it was just such a. That's my observation. Ra My own point. How did. How did you feel about his aggression or lack thereof? Aggression in this post, in this final, specifically,
- [36:03]
A
point guard play was less than. Than stellar for, for the Spurs. I don't think that a point guard was the issue with Wemby being where he was on the floor. I think that is because of Wemby's skill set. I think that the spurs identified what he does well and where he likes to get the ball, and that's what they had to play out of this year. So I don't think a point guard telling him to get on the block was going to make him go to the block. He does not want to be there. Like, that's not where he wants to be over and over again. I, you know. Yeah, there were. There were. Look, man, you could see a lane from 22, 23ft to the basket. You could look, you could see it, right? And at seven, six, bro, like, that's. That's a lot of body and a lot of time that it takes to get from 23ft to 5ft from the rim, right? And so. And there are four other defenders on the floor that can disrupt that. And so, you know, it's not as simple as saying, oh, there's a lane. Go get it. Like, he's. He's looking around, he's seeing people in gaps, he's seeing somebody loaded behind it. Like, there's a lot going on. That's why I say, all right, you ever been to, like, the YMCA or. Or you're in pickup games or go watch a old pro like me? And I'm not comparing myself to Wimy at all. Let's get that straight. But if I went to play right now, do you know where I would play most of the game?
- [37:30]
B
Where? On the corner.
- [37:32]
A
I'd play it in the mid. I'd play it in the mid post.
- [37:34]
B
Okay?
- [37:35]
A
I'd play it in the mid post to low post, provided I had a good matchup and I'd live there. It takes less out of you.
- [37:43]
B
That's what LeBron learned.
- [37:44]
A
It takes less out of. Do you know how hard it is to be living from 23ft? You're talking about a guy who's already gassed. Already is kind of slight of frame. And you're saying his numbers are dropping off a cliff in the fourth quarter, and you're going to ask him to have to work from 23ft away from
- [37:58]
B
the basket all night every game for him with six minutes left of the fourth quarter?
- [38:04]
A
It's ridiculous. No, it's not ridiculous. I shouldn't say that, but it was. It's kind of ridiculous to watch because. And again, on his arc, he will get this. But he doesn't have to turn into a back to the basket post player like Shaq. That's not what anyone is saying. That's certainly not what I'm saying. What I am saying, though, is that there are times in a basketball game where, because of the defensive scheme, the spacing on the floor, your level of fatigue, it behooves you to get a better catch in a more desirable position on the floor, where it's going to take less out of you to execute said shot. Right? And that could be a fade away. That could be. That could, you know, whatever you feel comfortable with in those spaces. Mid post to low post, do it, but get there. So the catch is easy. Yo, just put it to my hand. Boom. Now I'm 7 6. I'm just going up over the top of. There's very little you can do with that. Michael Jordan was six. Six who blocked his fade?
- [39:04]
B
That one.
- [39:05]
A
Kobe was six. Six who blocked his fade, that one. You're seven five. Like, there's a reason Kobe. There's a reason Kobe didn't always have me out in space or the better defenders out in space trying to beat them off. The bounce, that's fucking really hard. And there's a lot of people helping us. So what was Kobe's answer? Hey, bro, get off of the ball. I don't want it out here at the top of the key. Let me get behind the defense. Give it to me in the mid post to like 3/4 and I'll get a catch. I've got a live dribble, and now I'm. Rod is smaller than me, and I'm just going to play him here with a live dribble. And I can see the defense come in, and most of the times it won't even fucking matter because this is just going to be make or miss for me, dude.
- [39:51]
B
Yeah.
- [39:51]
A
And he needs to find that. They need to find that for him. That'll help them carry and close games.
- [39:56]
B
Raja. I felt watching this series like. And I told Howard this, this was a discussion point after the finals. It was like, damn, I can't wait to see Wimby in three years. Because in a lot of ways, it felt like the spurs team had supreme talent, which is why they got here, right? And, you know, they had, you know, gumptioning, you know, they were a better team against okc, all those things. But when I say that they got in on talent. It was like, there's other things that you can do to make the game easier that the Knicks kind of mastered down the stretch of games that the. That the spurs just didn't have yet. Right. Like, once we were always talking about when is the other shoe going to drop in terms of their lack of experience. And I think that this is what we saw. But one of the biggest takeaways that I saw was like, damn, Wimby, you can make this game easier than it is right now for you, just. With just some simple stuff, right? And it. It. He just isn't there yet. And that was the thing that I kept just seeing. Scene.
- [40:49]
A
Well, let me. Let me just. I'm sorry, but. Because, like, look, we talk about unicorns and we talk about, you know, skill sets, and we talk about all that, and then, like, go to every. Go to greats. Like, go to the greats and look how their skill set, when it matters the most, shrinks. I mean, they don't lose the skill set, but they don't rely on having to pull at 1, 000 different skills. They distill that down to a couple things that they really want to do and a couple spots on the floor that they'd ideally really like to get to. And that's what they do because it simplifies it. You know, it's. It's. It's. It's almost a master, like a jack of all trades and a master of none, right? Like you. You need to become a master of something that's in those areas that. That it becomes easier for you late in games. Not just from an execution standpoint, but from a thought process standpoint. This is where I'm going. This is what I want to do. Should I just talk to fucking Ty about that in the car today? Like, yo, bro, you have to have something that, you know, given four seconds on any given spot on the floor. This is what I'm getting to, provided you let me get to that. If you don't have that, you're just drawing at a bunch of straws. Like, you're just trying to catch in the air.
- [42:07]
B
Yeah. Let's talk about how we. What we think about Wimby before these playoffs versus after. Right? Because the game is one thing, Rajin Beck, but seems like there's a bit of a villain arc that is coming across, right? Like, he. I referenced him being a bully throughout this postseason. He, like, there's the alleged, like, you know, targeting that he was doing an OKC series. There was A shit that. The bullshit that he was doing to Jalen Brunson when he was giving him a little hip check, like, he was. What's up?
- [42:36]
A
Can I ask y' all a question? Because I know the whole ref thing was. I. I did see the ankle. I did see that. Y' all feel what I'm saying now? Y' all saw the ankle roll. You saw Jalen Brunson get a flagrant one for stepping under someone earlier in that series, bro.
- [42:51]
B
Like, and then you saw. But then you saw women also stepping under people as well. Like, he.
- [42:55]
A
But that's what I. What I'm saying, though. And no. And. And you're gonna review that. And we don't give a flagrant.
- [43:01]
B
Yeah.
- [43:02]
A
What are we doing?
- [43:03]
B
It's like, it. Hold. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. But, like, from what I see, Roger, is that on one hand, and this is like the perfect villain thing that I'm thinking about, right? Because on one hand, you're giving the impression when you do that that the league feels some type of way about this player and doesn't feel another. And the players and everybody else is starting to feel another way about him, right? Because we saw the Nas Reed situation where he doesn't.
- [43:29]
F
The.
- [43:30]
B
The. The. The punishment didn't seem like it added up to the action, right. We saw the stepping up underneath people. We saw him get these curious ejections. We saw him up a star player on the other team in, like, no retribution. Right? And so it feels like a turn. Howard Beck. It does feel like that. I'm sorry I wanted to cut you. I just want to get that point out that we're starting to see these instances where. Where there is a gap between where the league is putting this guy and where the league's players are starting to feel like, hold on, bro. What the Is he doing, man? Like, this is a. There. You could. There's going to be an argument like, this motherfucker's a dirty player, dude. Like, this is your guy. This is your guy right here.
- [44:08]
A
Right?
- [44:08]
B
And he's not shaking hands after a game, any of the series when he loses. Oh, okay. Michelle, you really don't. With us. You don't really. With what the. The. The game and the basketball gods require of you. We see what's going on here. That I. I can definitely say that the players are starting to feel that.
- [44:24]
F
Howard.
- [44:25]
C
Sure. Real quick. The landing zone violations, which, if you catch them in real time, are of course a flagrant one. If the. The officials determine that that that's what happened. You didn't give them space to land. Fun little trivia note here, because I, I, I got this information yesterday. Do you guys know the last time? Because, because they didn't catch it in real time, right? And then the question became, oh, what's that?
- [44:50]
A
Egregious. Egregious.
- [44:51]
C
Should they, should they have gotten, should they have then upgraded it retroactively? And in the, in the case of game five, if there had been a game six. Ooh, are they going to upgrade retroactively? Now the league has to decide whether or not Wemby is going to be suspended for a game six. Real quick, do you guys know the last time? You don't, but I'm just going to ask. You can guess. The last time the NBA retroactively gave a guy a flagrant for a landing zone violation that they missed in real time. So the league.
- [45:15]
B
Draymond.
- [45:15]
C
Retroactively. No. A landing zone violation. I don't know who it was. Do you know how long it's been since the last time they retroactively gave.
- [45:23]
B
Was it Jalen Rose? Was Jalen Rose in the finals in 2000? Right?
- [45:27]
A
Was it, was that even a rule back?
- [45:29]
B
I don't think it was a role
- [45:31]
C
until Zaza and Kawhi.
- [45:33]
A
So I had people do that to me intentionally, and there wasn't even a foul or anything called.
- [45:38]
C
So it wasn't a thing back then. Bruce Bowen did it all the time. Hi, Bruce.
- [45:41]
B
Yeah,
- [45:44]
C
it has been since 2019, the last time the NBA retroactively gave a guy. So I know this was like a talking point after the first one, after the second one. And what would have happened in a Game 6, the NBA, while they do review everything and they do assess retroactive flagrants and sometimes even retroactive technicals, it's super, super rare for them to issue a retroactive landing zone violation flagrant. I, I, I think because it is not considered as egregious. These are not, these are not intentionally violent plays. Sometimes it's just you get tangled or you, you drifted or whatever. And, and the case of the last one with, with Wemby and Brunson, they both drifted. I think it was definitely over. I think they definitely missed it. But I, I don't think the NBA was going to retroactively give it, and not because of some conspiracy to protect Wemby, but just because they very Rarely do it. 2019 was the last time. So it's just a, a worthwhile note as people, you know, there was no chance.
- [46:40]
A
Yeah, There was no chance.
- [46:43]
C
But also, Raj, not because they're protecting women.
- [46:45]
A
Because I understand. I understand what you're saying. And I saying. I slightly disagree with that. Like, it was going to be convenient. It was going to be convenient for them to lean on. We rarely do this, but, like, even if they had done it, they weren't doing it.
- [46:59]
B
If Draymond Green does that in his prime in this playoffs and he has get out of here, they're giving him the out of here, bro.
- [47:05]
C
Your history matters, though. Let's not. Don't do that. I'm saying. But your history matters.
- [47:08]
B
No, no, but what I'm saying, though, Howard, right now is Wemby, is your
- [47:11]
A
history shouldn't matter like that.
- [47:13]
C
It does.
- [47:14]
A
Why?
- [47:14]
C
It always does.
- [47:15]
A
Wait, wait, Howard, why should your history matter on a.
- [47:18]
C
Because if you have a history.
- [47:19]
A
Wait a minute. Your history should matter on something. That's subjective. That's not subjective. You fucking encroached on his landing zone. The rule says if he comes down on you, that is a fucking flagrant. That's not subjective. So, like, now you're talking about, like, pushing and shoving and all of that. And you want to say, oh, well, that didn't rise to the level. But his history suggests that he is an instigator. I co sign on that. But on something as cut and dry as a landing zone infraction when your other star player has clearly rolled his ankle, I don't think your history should come in. Come into play there. That's cut and dry.
- [47:54]
C
No, no, no, you're right. They're different things. I agree with everything you just said. I'm only objecting to Logan's invoking of Draymond because he's such an easy trigger point. If Draymond had done xyz. Yeah, Draymond does a lot of shit and he has a hit violations or landing zone violations. You're right. Just like a foul is a foul. You don't. Like, like, oh, that guy never fouls a three point shooter. We shouldn't get. Give him these. Yeah, it's.
- [48:14]
B
That's a. That's a fair point. That's a fair point. But also, I would say this, though. Like, I do. I do believe that is a fair point. And I will give you that. I do believe, though, that this postseason, Wimby is starting to build a reputation. I think that is very clear.
- [48:27]
C
You asked me that clear cut and I hadn't answered yet.
- [48:29]
A
I.
- [48:30]
C
It's interesting because, like, it's only year three for him, right? And I Think over the course of his first two years, our look, our. Our broad impression of Wemby as a personality, as a figure as well as. As a basketball player is polished beyond his years. He's thoughtful. Yeah. He's going in and hanging with the. The Shaolin monks, but also, like, he's reading books, and he's going and playing chess in Washington Square Park. And just his. His interviews are very thoughtful. And so I think that the broad outline of him, the impression of him that we have perceived and that we, as the media have then, I think, amplified, is this is a guy who's really polished and professional and thoughtful and, you know, and in a lot of ways comes off as very like, you know, kind feels like the wrong word because he is a competitor, but, like, there was just an aspect of him that seemed to be kind of, you know, almost like this, like, you know, virtuous basketball figure. Right? He's dominant, but he's not. But he's not vicious. Right? And we've seen guys who model themselves as killers. Kobe would refer to himself as a killer. Iverson was a killer. Jordan was a killer. Shaq wanted to stuff you in the basket. And we didn't see Wemby that way, in part because of his frame, in part maybe because there's always the European thing. It's a lot of things, but this is the first time over the last few weeks where it's like, oh, oh, he's got an edge. And at times, that actually came off, I think, as positive. Like in the Thunder series, some of the things he was doing, it was just like, oh, I like how. How emphatic he's being. I like how aggressive he's being. I like whatever. And in the finals, it spilled over into that.
- [50:05]
A
Yeah, no, that and those narratives, bro. Because people don't give Lou Dort that kind of grace.
- [50:12]
B
Okay?
- [50:14]
C
History. History of pulling, you don't know, but
- [50:17]
A
he's got a history. But you ain't seen the clip of this man trying to kick somebody's knee. If that had been Lou Dort in the finals, people would have lost their ever loving mind, in part because now
- [50:31]
C
you have a history again.
- [50:32]
A
But now you know. But now you have a history. You have a history now.
- [50:35]
C
Now he does Raja over the last two weeks. Now he does now, next season, if you want to say he's got a history.
- [50:40]
A
He tried to break someone's. He tried to break someone's face in the first round of the playoffs. He tried to decapitate someone. Howard. It was his, like, you guys think that's funny? I tried. Like, no, no, no. This isn't even debatable. Like, I won't even debate this with you all. What he tried to do to Nas Reed was break his face, and everybody pawned it off. Like, it was not this big deal. I've been there. Like, he tried to break that man's face.
- [51:05]
C
I think what I'm trying to say here, Raja, is we had an impression built on a couple of years of him playing a certain way and presenting a certain way, speaking a certain way, and that has changed in the last. Not maybe just two weeks, maybe the last six weeks, whatever. It's been starting from Nasrid forward. Until the Nasrid thing happened, there had not been a Nas Reed thing. That's my point. It's not that we. We should let him off the hook or that we should view him differently than Lou Dort. It's that Lou Dort already had all this built up. So every time he does it, we go, there goes Lou Dort again. Now that Wemby's done all this for the last six weeks, if you want to say there goes Wemby again, fine. And if you want to say he's dirty, you, however you want to classify
- [51:44]
B
him next year, we on that next year.
- [51:47]
C
Okay? It changed. It changed in the last month and a half.
- [51:50]
A
I'm fine with that, Howard. If we're going to have that energy, I'm fine with that. I'm not arguing with you that what. What I would say to the. Lou Dort is been in the league a lot longer and didn't have in history until he had a history.
- [52:01]
C
Sure, right.
- [52:02]
A
So, like, once you start having the history, like, we got to keep the same energy. And that's, like, that. That's always my beef because, like, and this is personal to me, I'm not going to sit on here and act like it's not. Like, I. I. You know, like, people would tell you that I used to put my foot under people's ankles and roll. Like, I'm not immune to someone sending me one of those. And I'm like, wait, I'd never done that ever in my career. But I get lumped into that because, you know, like, there's one narrative for us, and then there's another narrative for star players. Like, I had a star player who came to my team, put his foot under mine and intentionally hurt me, and I rang him up on that shit in. In. In film, like, one of his first days, like, yo, my man, you trying to tell Me? You ain't do that shit on purpose? No, I ain't doing on purpose. I do it on purpose. So I took his ass to the film, showed it to him. Oh yeah, my bad. Like, yeah, but like you guys, like the media typically doesn't keep the same energy for some of us that they then do for the stars. And that's all I'm asking for. That's personal to me. Like, he got a history now in my book.
- [53:04]
B
Yeah. I mean, well, I think we're all in agreements there on that. He has a history now and we're going to be looking closely on it. What I do think though, and I think it's another point and I think that we get as a media apparatus, I do think that we get so in love with the storytelling aspect of it. Like, this is great villain. Like this, this is what we're going to do. He's, he's not a villain. He is an interesting subject for us. Right. And so I think that that may lead to just how we talk about things in a way that I don't think that aligns maybe with what's going or maybe it doesn't take into care into all of these, the parties.
- [53:39]
A
It's human nature. It's human nature like years in and
- [53:42]
C
we're still learning about him.
- [53:43]
A
Yeah. And he might, he might not transgress anymore. And that's fine. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not 22 saying. Yeah, but like there has been some history of that. And as far as the stars go, look, you understand that, bro, like these are star driven leagues with star driven narratives. And it's, it's not fun for fans. You know, like you, you got to have the antagonist and stuff like that. Like, I'm, I'm good with that. It's just a hard history is a hard thing for me because no one has a history.
- [54:12]
B
Right.
- [54:12]
A
Like, no one came into the NBA on their first game and, and rung up two flagrants and now you're like, oh, for the rest of his career it's gonna be history. So like starts to evolve and happen and then once you get it, you have it. And he's no different in that regard. And so we all, we all agree, but like he could very easily not have any more flagrants and not be sticking his foot under people's legs and not try to break somebody's face and then you're fine.
- [54:36]
B
Yeah. Two more questions before we go to.
- [54:38]
C
Oh yeah, I was just real quick. We also though, and by We. And this is not just media. I think Raja, I think you and other former players kind of get caught up in this, too, though. Guys get tagged, especially European players. Still, after all this time, there's still a little bit, like, the soft label. And especially if you're built the way he's built. I think about Pau Gasol and how skinny he was when he came in. And then they're constantly having to fight this uphill battle about, like, are they tough enough? And this and that. And, like, part of the way you make your bones in the NBA and you change that reputation is. Is if they're beating you up, beat them back. And so he lost it a couple of times, and he certainly overstepped. But, like, there's a certain aspect of that where I think there are some people who are probably privately saying, like, fuck, yeah, I'm glad he did that. He needs to do that. Like, that's part of his growth to just don't go over the line and don't hurt anybody.
- [55:22]
A
Yeah, no, look, I've. I've been one of those people. I mean, yeah, dude, like, you got to defend yourself. Like, I'm not. If I got on here and said anything to the contrary of that, I would be the biggest hypocrite in the world, because I am firmly in the camp of, once you feel like you've had enough, you got to handle your business. That's just like, human being shit. But there's a line that's drawn as to what's acceptable for that. And if you cross it, like, I crossed it immediately and forever. I live in that space. I can't get out of it. Once you cross it, you live with the. I don't want to hear, oh, he was soft and so he did it. And then now, like, we're just going to.
- [56:06]
B
I.
- [56:06]
A
Well, I wasn't soft and I did it. So, like, I don't get the pass.
- [56:08]
C
I don't know if it's about what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah. I just. Yeah. I think there's almost a. One, it's sometimes a no. 1 situation. And two, we. The chattering classes, media and fans, if a guy doesn't stick up for himself and is not physical, we knock him for being soft. They stick up themselves, they get physical. They maybe cross a line. And now it's like, now you're a villain and you're a terrible person. And it's like, but. But, Roger, that's exactly what you experienced, right? Like, you want one incident and sud, you're tagged for the rest of your career. And. And so this is. But this is what I'm saying.
- [56:38]
A
We.
- [56:39]
C
Because everything is oversimplified, and because these. And especially now between social media and 247 debate shows every day, it has to be one extreme or the other. I don't think on this show, the three of us are guilty of that. Generally speaking, I think we're trying to live in the. In the nuance. And even as we hash this out in real time here, we're trying to find, like, where. Where is, like, the. The fair version of this that is not extreme, but we're living in times when everything is just teased out to the nth degree and hyperbolized, if that's even a word. And so I'm just like, I. I try to push back against the extremes, and I'm always. I am trying to find that middle space there. And I think in Wemby's case, we're going to go into next season with a different impression of him, both positively and negatively. And the question is, what does he do next?
- [57:30]
B
Yeah, I agree.
- [57:31]
A
I agree. I would. I'd be remiss, though. Like, if we're doing this in real time, there's a difference between physically standing up and pushing back and putting your feet under someone in their landing zone. That's not a tough play. That's not. That's not. That's not a tough play. Like, and so there are plays that you can make where you're, you know, boom, you're bumping. You're bumping. You throw a guy to the ground. Like, I'm. I'm fine with that. Like, you. You know, even the one with Jalen Brunson should have been a flagrant because you mushed him. But, like, hey, you know, like, you. If you had. If you thought he was up in your ribs and he was. And he was, like, trying to break your ribs and you got his little ass off you, I'm okay. Like, I'm okay with that. But they do start to pile up, and when there's, you know, Hansel and Gretel, there's a trail. Like, you got to follow that damn trail, you know, and if it leads you to a place where the.
- [58:23]
D
Where.
- [58:24]
A
Where you're like, well, shit, there's enough evidence. Like, I. I just. While I. I agree with you, Howard, I hate the world we live in where you got to be one thing or the other. Some people in the league, like, my time has passed, but some people in the league still can't get out of that box, no matter what.
- [58:39]
B
Right.
- [58:40]
A
And so all I'm saying is it's sticking up because I was one of them. I don't think it's necessarily fair because of your stature as a player in the league to avoid being put in that box if there's enough evidence to. To put you in that box, even if it's just until you prove otherwise. That's all I'm saying.
- [58:58]
C
He's getting scrutinized. I don't think he's. I don't think anybody's giving him a pass.
- [59:02]
B
Okay. Two more things that I want to get through on the leap. One thing, Howard. Do you feel vindicated that your Dear and Fox trade take from the beginning of the season is now receiver pitch?
- [59:16]
C
Not necessarily. They probably needed him for this run. But. But I mean, and not because on the wall or.
- [59:22]
A
No, I don't.
- [59:23]
C
I don't think you. You trade him because of what happened in the finals. I think if you trade him, you do it because partially contract and partially because Dylan Harper just needs all the Runway in the world now.
- [59:32]
B
Yeah.
- [59:32]
C
Between Dylan Harper and Stefan Castle, like, you're set. So the day is coming. It may not be this summer, it may not be next season, but, like, Darren Fox is not going to be there for the next two, three years. I don't think so. That was my impulse at the time they drafted Dylan Harper. That's certainly emboldened by this. Certainly emboldened by running into Ron Harper in the hallway right after Game 5. He's the first person I saw downstairs. Proud daddy feeling pretty good. Like, yeah, they lost and all that stuff. But like, what? Yeah, we.
- [60:01]
B
We talked a little, like five years.
- [60:03]
C
He's like.
- [60:04]
A
He's like, wow. He's like, your lips, bro.
- [60:06]
C
Yeah, basically, it's like, wait till you see what he comes back as, you know, next. Next season. So that's awesome. Anyway, I don't know if dear Fox will get traded, but, like, it's pretty damn clear that Dylan Harper is going to be an absolute fucking stud in this league. Shout out to Ron Harper.
- [60:21]
B
So, Ron, thoughts on the Fox situation and the point guard situation as the whole in San Antonio?
- [60:27]
A
Yeah, I mean, it was. It wasn't great. I had a lot of people asking me. Obviously I wasn't on the pod, but about the. Do you sit dear in Fox and start? You know, Dylan and I was on the side of no, because I think you want to keep it as comfortable and as usual and as normal for them as possible in a run like that. But I Would agree with Howard 100%. His what he showed you in this playoff run as a first year player has got to be so exciting for not only dad, but the organization that you want to do everything you can to support that arc and him getting to the top of that trajectory as fast as possible. So, you know, within, within the team concept because obviously we have to keep winning. It can't just be we're forgetting everything to get him to that point, but we certainly have to figure out how to get him to that point as quick as possible and continue to win games. And if that means, and it does mean having him on the floor more and letting him play through some stuff and having him have to figure it out because it's all on him in the, in the, in the, in the realm of point guardedness and taking care of the ball and getting us into offense, then you do what you have to do to make that happen.
- [61:42]
B
Yeah. One other thing that I want to get to before ruining the week. The trajectory of Mike Brown.
- [61:50]
D
Wow.
- [61:51]
C
Yeah.
- [61:54]
A
Good for you.
- [61:54]
B
Yeah. Mike Brown for you, Mike. Bro. Who let the dogs out? Who let the dogs out.
- [61:59]
A
Yeah.
- [61:59]
B
Oh, man. I'm glad that Mike Brown is in a position where he can actually show his personality, the one that we, me, I don't know if you saw Raja, but me and Beck have seen behind the scenes for a long time, but very gregarious personality that he doesn't show very often, that he's finally showing to the world. That is great. What is his trajectory, Howard, now that he has the title? I was thinking maybe it's a little bit of a Doc Rivers arc, right. Where like, he's always been known as maybe a good coach, but like, this validates this championship, kind of validates him in NBA lore. Right. I don't know if Doc Rivers had a time where like we thought, okay, this is the Doc Rivers's last job and he's out of the league.
- [62:37]
E
Right.
- [62:37]
B
Like, it's probably the last job of his career, right. Maybe this Bucks, the. Probably this Bucks team was that for him. But Mike Brown was in a position when, you know, when he got hired by the Knicks where it's like, ah, this is probably his last shot. This is probably the last. Now he goes from that to he's a champion. Now he's in NBA lore. What is that? How do you see the Mike Brown arc right now? And I'll go to Roger real quick.
- [63:00]
C
I think this is his fifth coaching stint because it was twice with Cleveland, LA, and Sacramento. And so by the Time. You are like, at some point, you're like the young hot.
- [63:08]
B
He was like the head coach of the Golden State warriors for like four weeks. Three weeks. Three, four weeks or something like that. Right.
- [63:16]
C
Books. But there's, you know, there's. You only get so many shots one day. You're the young up and comer that everybody's like, going on, especially if you're black people.
- [63:26]
B
Put that out there.
- [63:26]
C
I did. I did the math on this about 10 years ago. And blackhead coaches, their average length of. Of tenure compared to Whitehead coaches. And I think this was both first timers and veterans, but especially first timers, much shorter. And you do usually get fewer shots. Mike Brown, you get that glow of the warriors and being part of those championship teams and being part of that staff and being in Steph's orbit. And then you go to Sacramento and did it, I mean, brought the Kings back to respectability. Like, you know, dear Fox Sabonis. All these guys have something to do with that. But Mike Brown had a hell of a lot to do with it that he was fired for being Coach of the Year. So there's your Doc Rivers comp. Doc Rivers, his first head coaching job. He goes straight from the broadcast booth to the Orlando Magic in 1999. He beats Phil Jackson for Coach of the year. In the 99, 2000 season, the Lakers won 67 games. The Magic finished, I think, either at 500 or just below. And Doc wins Coach of the Year. Why? Because it was a roster full of guys nobody had. I mean, not that they never heard of it. It was like, you know, Chucky Atkins and like, I don't know, Bo Outlaw or something like, it was, I think, a young Ben Wallace. Pre. Pre awesomeness Ben Wallace. What's that?
- [64:37]
A
I said both of my guys. You named both of my guys.
- [64:40]
B
So.
- [64:40]
C
But it was Doc Rivers coached his ass off. A team that was expected to do absolutely nothing. And they get to like 500 and he wins Coach of the Year. But they didn't really progress enough after that. Right? And then, you know, they get t. Mac and McGran Hill and they can't get stay healthy and whatever. And then eventually Doc lands in Boston. What people often forget about the Boston thing and Ubuntu and the championship and all that stuff is that prior to them getting Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen, everybody wanted. They all wanted to trade Paul Pierce and fire Doc Rivers. They were like chant. They were like fire Doc chants the prior season. And a couple months later, they get these guys in the next year, they're winning a championship. And so Mike Brown, that's kind of similar in that, you know, fired multiple times, people think it's maybe over for him.
- [65:27]
A
He's.
- [65:27]
C
When you're fired by the Sacramento Kings, the most dysfunctional franchise in the NBA, and it's. It's already your fourth chance, like, that might be it for you. So. Yeah. And then on top of that, he was like their sixth choice at best. Remember, they asked permission to talk to Jason Kidd. Rejected. They wanted to get Quinn Snyder Rejected. They wanted to get Billy Donovan. Rejected. They five head coaches that they asked for permission to talk to who were under contract, refused on all of them. And then they land on Mike Brown, and it looks like a consolation prize in some ways. And it's kind of. It feels disrespectful, but, like, that's. That's how it played out. And here he is. Like, this is an incredible moment of vindication for Mike Brown. By the way, can I just read a quick blurb from our colleague Isaac Levy Rubinette in our off season survey this morning?
- [66:11]
B
Yes, we can.
- [66:12]
C
If the past two seasons have taught us anything, it's all caps. Get the hell out of Sacramento. Tyrese Halliburton was traded to the Pacers in 2022, and he made the Finals in 2025. De' Aaron Fox was traded in 2025 and turned around to make the Finals in 2026. Even if he did stink up the joint once he got there. Mike Brown was fired by the Kings in 2024 and won a championship with the Knicks 18 months later. All of which is to say I desperately want to see Demonis Sabonis find his way to the Charlotte Hornets and eventually the 2028 NBA Finals. Shout out to our guy, Isaac. That's a fantastic blurb. And boy, Sacramento. I feel so bad for Kings fans.
- [66:46]
B
Anyways, there's a lot of two to California. They chose that line. Raza, what are your thoughts on Mike Brown?
- [66:52]
A
No, I mean, I mean, Howard laid out the arc.
- [66:54]
C
I'm not.
- [66:54]
A
I don't like, well done. I would just. I'm just. I'm really, really happy for a dude who, like, those jobs aren't easy, man. Like, it doesn't matter who you are. That's tough. And you can be an excellent chef. You can even have excellent ingredients, and you try to make a dish and those ingredients just don't work well together.
- [67:15]
F
Right.
- [67:15]
A
And that doesn't mean that you're not a great chef. It just means, like, this is the best I could do with what I'm giving here.
- [67:22]
E
Right.
- [67:22]
A
And so it's not always on these guys who are running these teams as to why it doesn't work. Sure, they bear responsibility and someone's got to go. It's usually easier to get rid of a coach. But I'm happy for all of them that are good dudes, like, because some of them I'm sure aren't. I don't know many of them, but I do know Mike Brown and he's a good dude. And I do remember going to Cleveland. I've told this story before being asked to kind of consult on where that team was with him. And I felt bad for him when I walked in there and saw what he was dealing with from, from not, not a talent on the roster standpoint. But like I was. It was just at whatever point in the season this was.
- [68:02]
F
He.
- [68:02]
A
He was not being heard at all or listened to. And it was a shame. And you know, that happens. No woe was him or anything like that. But to be standing here like as an NBA champion, you know, this many years later, knowing him and knowing what he's gone through, like, I'm, I'm just super happy for him, man. And that's, I think it's a really cool story.
- [68:23]
B
One of the all time great people in NBA history, like in terms of persons and people and people that, that are just around the game. He was all one of the hardest working people in the game as well. And sometimes, you know, that was used against him. I'm gonna be honest, he worked too hard, you know, like, and I, I'm really happy to see him get his flowers. He earned that Terror squad chain. He earned it.
- [68:49]
C
Not for nothing, Mike Brown only had one acceptable outcome. They fired Tom Thibodeau for losing in the conference finals there. And after going to the conference finals, him, him being the one to get them to the conference finals for the first time in 25 years. When you, when you are the guy who replaced the guy who actually brought the team back to respectability and got them further than anybody had in 25 years, the bar is as high as it can possibly be. Mike Brown had only one outcome that was going to be acceptable. Probably to the owner who had already said championship or bust, and to the, maybe to the fans and certainly to anybody who thought the Tibbs got a raw deal. Like there was only one outcome that Mike Brown could succeed or could be considered a success and he got it.
- [69:29]
B
Yeah. Who was the man who's a dude that replaced Jimmy Johnson at the U. Who won the title? Was it. Was it Erickson, one of those guys?
- [69:37]
A
Yeah, Dennis Erickson came in. Yeah, he did.
- [69:39]
B
And one of national tap, but he's also placed Jimmy Johnson, so.
- [69:42]
A
No, he did his thing, though. He did his thing, I think. Was it Al. Was it Coker? Was it Larry Coker? One, one, two.
- [69:49]
B
No, that was in 2000.
- [69:51]
C
Anyway, we're getting there.
- [69:51]
A
Yeah, that was later.
- [69:53]
B
Let's get to ruin of the week. There's only can be one ruin of the week for us. It's the. Our extended family. It's been stellar, man. It's been motherfucking silly for pulling up at one of the greatest moments of his sports life. The greatest moment of his sports life, as he said on the podcast, and then blessing us with his presence, man. I want to tell the story.
- [70:14]
A
I need to go watch. I need to go watch that pod. I need to go watch.
- [70:17]
C
Yes, you do, Absolutely.
- [70:18]
B
Okay. At the very least, the section of his interview, the last 15 minutes, for sure. I want to tell the story of how it came together on the pod because Roz is hearing it for the first time and I think that'd be really cool too. Just tell the listenership and just, you know, say how, like, you know, how Ben has just become like. Like a bit of family to real one. So over the last few years. It's weird. He's, you know, it's. It's crazy, but for the, for the. For the pod listeners, we were trying to get Ben to get. I'm gonna start off, first of all. I'm gonna start off with like my version of the story and then go to Howard because Howard has all of the intricacies of what happened on. On the ground. But Roger know this. We were trying to get Ben like before the finals and he was down. We were gonna. We had a time locked in, but he had scheduling issues because he's like one of the hardest working people on the planet. Dude has like 87 jobs, so he couldn't make it happen. So we're trying to find with his people, just trying to find times to get him on. Meanwhile, he's transversing the globe. Me and Howard are transversing the globe back and forth from Stockholm. He's going back and forth between the world and gay in these games in San Antonio and New York. So we're trying to find a time. And then by game five, it's like, let's just try to figure out a time after the finals maybe. And then like, everybody just like. So everybody went dark. And we just like watching the finals like everybody else. And then. Then Beck season in San Antonio. And then I'm gonna let Beck take it from here on how everything went down from the. The ground in San Antonio.
- [71:53]
C
Everybody knows by now, obviously, that Stiller was at all the games, because he would be anyway. But he was also documenting it. He's. He's talked a little bit about this in very brief form about what he's doing with a documentary. So I'd already run into him at a couple practices in New York. And so we had chit chat along the way. But I wasn't bringing up the podcast thing because Logan was working on that through, like, official channels after game five. And I'm running around all the back areas trying to find people, whatever. I get Patrick Ewing, I got Alan Houston. I'm just like, looking for people to getting quotes and put it all in perspective, all that stuff. And there's Ben. So he's talking to Sean Powell from the great Sean Powell from MBA.com, long time NBA writer. And I'm waiting for Sean to kind of wind down. So I go up to Ben, hey, man, congrats. How you feeling? Whatever. So we chat for a little bit. I get some official quotes from him that I can use in my story and all that stuff. In the meantime, like, people keep coming over wanting their photos. I took two or three different photos of people's cameras with them with Ben. Because I'm standing there like, what the hell? I might as well. I'm not on deadline yet. I've got an hour and a half before we have to pod. And I introduced him to Tom.
- [72:57]
B
And I told the words real quick. I told the words, take your time to Howard, like, yo, take your time. We'll be here when you need it. Because I know how it is on a reporting trip. It was also funny because I was thinking about Raja. Like, I love Raja. I wish she was here for this moment.
- [73:09]
A
But.
- [73:09]
B
But there ain't no way in hell Roger's waiting around after a finals game. And I'm telling Howard to take his time to go report up our agreement.
- [73:18]
C
Our agreement with each other and with our.
- [73:20]
F
Our.
- [73:20]
C
Our beloved producers was we would do that. We would start 90 minutes after so that we don't keep everyone up all night, even though I had to stay up all night. So I am. I'm in a frenzy for 90 minutes, just running around trying to find people. I stood in a stupid line to get into the next locker room, and there was nothing to see there. Once we got in. That's a story for another time. But I finally. I get Ben. Yeah. And at one point, Tom Crean walks up. I know Tom a little bit from. From some summer league stuff we've done together. And so next thing you know, I'm introducing Tom Cream to Ben Stiller. As if these two wouldn't, like, would need an introduction. Like, these are both very recognizable people, but I'm just in a weird space at this point, so I'm about to leave.
- [73:56]
A
Did they know each other, though?
- [73:57]
C
Like, no, no. Tom was like, yeah. Tom had walked up and went, oh, hey. And he goes, I wanted to meet Ben. And so I was like, oh, hey, Ben. Ben. Ben Stiller. Tom Crean. Like.
- [74:05]
B
Like, Howard's so cool.
- [74:08]
C
It was. It was just this impromptu, very, in the. In retrospect, awkward, silly, stupid thing I did. But. But it was fun. So. So then I took a photo of Tom King and his daughters with. With Ben. So I go, ben, listen, I. I gotta run, but by the way, I'm gonna be potting a little bit down the hall here. They got us this. This little room, like, behind the chapel room. There's, like, some little, you know, meditation room or something that they got me set up. I'm gonna go do a podcast. You want to jump in? Feel free. He's like, oh, yeah, okay, cool.
- [74:35]
A
Yeah.
- [74:35]
C
Well, let's see what happen. I. I had no thoughts whatsoever, Raja, that this was going to happen because everybody and their brother wants to talk to him, take photos with him, interview him. He's doing his documentary. He's, you know, probably going to some afterparty with Shalam and Spike and Tracy Morgan or something. The last thing I thought was, he
- [74:54]
B
got time for our little old podcast.
- [74:57]
C
So I find my way to that room I set up. My. People would laugh at the setup. My laptop was literally perched on, like, one of those, like, branded Coke refrigerators, like, that you see in, like, the gyms or offices or whatever. I just put it on there because I didn't have anything else that was high enough. It's a total, like, makeshift setup. We start potting at about. What was it, a little after midnight? It was like 12:15 or something.
- [75:18]
B
You're asleep, Raza. You're fucking not. You're. You're asleep.
- [75:22]
C
It would have been 1:15 your time, because Texas is an hour behind, so it's very late. We're potting for a good 30, 40 minutes, and suddenly my phone rings, and I look down and it's Ben. And so I'm like, Guys, hang on a sec. I pull away. I'm like, hey, where are. He's like, hey, I'm gonna come down. I'm like, what? Really? Okay, this is. He's like, where are you? I'm like, I'm trying to describe it, right.
- [75:44]
B
Also, quick thing. The San Antonio. And you've all played it. You've played in San Antonio. We've covered a lot of games. San Antonio, they have all these fucking tunnels.
- [75:51]
C
It's a labyrinth.
- [75:52]
B
Levels of the arena. You can't like. So I'm telling Beck. Beck is like, I got a pod, but you can come in here. I'm like, beck, get your ass out and go find him. I said, go find.
- [76:01]
A
Go.
- [76:01]
B
You go find him. Go find him.
- [76:04]
C
Yeah, Logan and Cliff are yelling at me. Like, don't you know. They're worried he's going to, like, get lost or we're not going to get him. So I do pop out for a minute. I have these guys who have, like, setting up all their equipment outside. I'm like, guys, can you watch the room for me? Got all my stuff in there. Whatever. Like, I got to go find. And I'm running around and I can't. I, I, I couldn't quite find him. So then I call him, but he's in the middle of something. So the conversation was garbled. So. And he's talking to two, like, cross talk all this. I'm like, ah, I got to get back. But I know he's coming. He's. He said he's coming. I told him the room that is. I said, just look for this room. He finally, I think follow up with the text, said, somebody from the NBA knows where it is. They're going to bring him. So I sit back down, I calm these down because they're all hyper chill. We're fine, guys.
- [76:47]
B
I told BE to get the up again. I said, he's getting escorted.
- [76:51]
A
I said, Beck, it's like, dude, we're good. Relax, relax.
- [76:54]
C
There's a lot of raw footage cut somewhere of us just like, you know, like yelling at each other, but not in a bad way. It was a lot of just frenzy. And it was late and we're punchy, but yeah. So then I sat back down. We continue potting. And then a little while later, Ben comes through the door. So he is, he is absolutely the real one of the week. That's probably.
- [77:13]
B
Oh, my God. And then, like, you got to watch it. We're going to send you the link. And then he fucking is. Like, once drunk, we did it. We did all the shit's by like, he was like, he's like, Logan, do it.
- [77:25]
D
Do the.
- [77:25]
E
Do it.
- [77:28]
B
And we're like, like, somebody said that it looked like a Student Access show, that Beck. And the lighting was horrible. The lighting was terrible.
- [77:36]
C
Apologies to Victoria.
- [77:38]
B
And then we're gonna put it up on the screen. We got this phenomenal picture of Howard and Beck doing Blue Steel at the end. It was incredible. It was supposed to be a thumbnail, but the lighting was terrible. But yeah, it was great. We, we, we, we did it, man. So Ben Stiller, like.
- [77:54]
A
Yeah, I mean, our guy.
- [77:55]
B
Our dude.
- [77:56]
A
I'm glad you guys. I'm glad you guys got to experience that. That's. That's pretty cool. That's on that night for him, like, that energy had to be out of control.
- [78:04]
C
Sorry you missed it. I know. It's all right. Yeah, yeah.
- [78:08]
F
It's all right.
- [78:09]
A
I'm gonna go back and watch it. I'll just kind of just.
- [78:13]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [78:13]
A
I was just trying to kind of insert myself into that.
- [78:16]
B
That's cool. That's cool. You're gonna make it the next time. He's got to come back on.
- [78:19]
A
There you go.
- [78:19]
B
At some point. You know what I mean? And you were all going to be there. We still are owed an in person time in New York, right? We're both. You're supposed to go to a Knicks game with them, but we're supposed to all have dinner in New York at some point.
- [78:30]
A
Yeah, you gotta coordinate that.
- [78:32]
B
All right, man, Ben Stiller, ruin of the week.
- [78:38]
A
Yeah. I want to give a little shout out. Real one. Because my.
- [78:41]
B
Absolutely.
- [78:41]
A
My young blood tie. I was with him at the MVPA Top 100 camp in Rock Hill and Kyrie was. Was a guest workout. They got to watch Kyrie workout with Phil Handy. And Phil was. I hadn't seen Phil in a while. Super cool watching those dudes. But like as it was like, you know, ties my. My middle boy, he loved Kyrie. He loves Kyrie. Kyrie on Kyrie's signature shoe drop. The first night of his signature shoe in. In Cleveland. He found Ty and gave Ty his shoe. And Ty's been hooked ever since, right? Like Kyrie is his dude. So anyway, like he comes in, he works out. I'm kind of in and out. And Ty comes up to me afterwards and it's like. Like he took a picture with Kai while Kai was walking out and stuff and he said, dad, he said, I was hanging out over here and Kyrie had come in the gym behind Me, I didn't know it. He was like. And somebody kind of grabbed me by my shoulder and said, yo, what's up, Ty? He was like, dad, he knew my name. He knew my name. He was like. So anyway, I'm giving Kyrie Real one of the week because Ty Bell will be riding high off of that exchange for who knows how long.
- [79:49]
B
Yo, man.
- [79:49]
A
And just, I don't know, to remember his name is like, like that's crazy. That's kind of wild. So like real one for that.
- [79:55]
B
I don't know what Ty is going to be. I know he's great and I know that he is just like I watch his highlights all the time and he's a phenomenal player. But what a, what a treat to like have you as his pops, bro. And like just the, the way that he has been able to like, like he sat in on the Steph Curry ruins interview, right? Like he's been studying these guys and like have a. And he has like this like symmetry with these guys. He's got some access, right? But he like you weren't here at the time, but I swear when, when Steph came on this pod, this dude had a razor focus. Like I'm learning everything that I can from him, but also I'm learning everything I can to kick his ass one day or kick or get to this point. And I don't know what Ty's going to be but he has a lot of lessons right now and I can't wait to see what he is saying with Dia. Man, you know, I'm fans of your kids.
- [80:48]
A
I appreciate you bragging on them. I appreciate that. But. But yeah, yeah, the shot, the shine for this segment. For me, the 1B to obviously Ben Stiller. Kyrie, bro, like that was pretty dope. You made, you made a kids like month probably with that. So I, I thought that was real.
- [81:03]
B
That's okay. You know you're always last, Howard, because you always have the, the you know, you know that the way you like to take it for the rule of the week. So if you have one, go right ahead.
- [81:13]
C
I would have, I would have of course gone Ben and I co signed that one. But city of San Antonio is my real one of the week and the fans of San Antonio, here's why. So first time I've been there for the finals since obviously their last finals 12 years ago, 2014. And it's not that I'd forgotten this, but it's a good reminder when you land in a final city, especially one that you've Been to before. Every final city, every. Every city, every fan base has a little bit of a different vibe. One of the cool things about the spurs, and it's partially because the way this downtown is built and you've got the Riverwalk, so you've got this, an attraction down. There's a. There's a reason for people to go downtown, right? But when you're in San Antonio, you feel the fucking finals. Like, you feel it. You feel the passion of, like, the fans and how everybody's all in because every single place has signs up. They've got, like, tall buildings where the lighting is. The lights in the rooms at night are spelling out Go spurs, go. Flags are everywhere on cars and in, you know, shop windows and whatever, and waitresses and waiters are all wearing spurs gear. And it. Dude, it is everywhere. There are murals on. On the, like, especially as you're driving out to the outskirts, murals of, like, Duncan and Pop and Tony and Manu. There's. There's Wemby alien murals. Like, that place freaking lives for this team. And I don't mean this as a stray at Oklahoma, but, like, I didn't feel it in Oklahoma because Oklahoma's downtown. There's nobody the same way.
- [82:35]
B
I didn't want to say that because it's all. I didn't want to say it fully on Oklahoma City, but I do feel you, because I want to say this. Oklahoma City's fan base is incredible. Especially, you know, you're at the. It was a. It was mind blowing, just like in
- [82:47]
A
the building, almost literally mind blowing, because
- [82:49]
C
I think my head's going to explode. It's so damn loud in that building.
- [82:52]
B
They're building that, that. That perimeter around their downtown. They're still doing that in a way that San Antonio has already historically had that. But it's not a slight. It's just you guys are building towards that. That apparatus around with the new arena and also just the new restaurants around.
- [83:07]
C
And. And the thing is, in the case of, like, Oklahoma and a couple other cities like this, where it's like at the time of the game and hours before and after the game and in the per. In the periphery of the arena, you feel it, but not extend it out. And in San Antonio, it's like I could not go anywhere. And I went. I didn't stay downtown the whole time either. Like my old buddy Mike Monroe. Shout out to the great Mike Monroe, legendary former NBA writer still living in San Antonio. He took me to, like, his favorite Mexican joint for breakfast. That was more like toward his neighborhood, like, just like a little hole in the wall place. The food was out of this world. It was absolutely awesome. But. But even, like, it wasn't so. It wasn't just like I was downtown. It was. It was no matter where I went in town. Everybody's in. In spurs. Everybody's talking about the Spurs. And I live in New York where stuff just gets swallowed up. Right. Like, I was here for the Finals, obviously. Obviously, New Yorkers very passionate about the Knicks before, during and after. There's no question about that. But on a given day, when someone says, well, what's it like in New York during the Finals? I'm like, if you're not near the Garden or Midtown or certain other spots, you might not know what's going on because it's New York and New York just swallows up everything. There's so much going on here. LA because it's so spread out. Yeah, you see the Laker flags on cars and stuff like that. San Antonio is just kind of unique in the way it's built, but also obviously, the passion of that fan base. Anyway, it was just really enjoyable and really cool. So shout out to spurs fans. They're going to have a lot of better days ahead of them, I believe. I mean, they've got good days right now, but that team's going to be back.
- [84:32]
A
Yeah, they're good. That's an awesome. Real ones, though. And I would just add to that, Howard, that, like, I've never been there for a finals, but I've been there for some Western Conference finals and, and, and even second round of the playoffs. And they get it cracking. Like it feels like that for playoffs in general. I'm sure it was amplified even more, but that's one of those cities that you feel them in the playoffs, leaving hotels, walking around.
- [84:55]
B
They get it cracking in general. I randomly was on a New Year's Eve in San Antonio because the warriors just happened to be in San Antonio for New Year's Eve. And when I tell you, and I was at that Weston on the Riverwalk, it was cracking. It was cracking. So shout out San Antonio because they get it cracking. You know when you go to random city and you're not ready, you're not expecting to have as much fun as you did. You know what I'm talking about? Or you're just like, I'm here, San Antonio. If you know, you know, okay, that's been another edition of Real Ones. We are back next Thursday and then we are going to be back down around free agency. So that's why we gave you a little extra time. Damn near hour and a half. That's why. Roger's up for damn near an hour and a half. We will see you guys next week.
- [85:47]
A
Summer schedule dog. We got drop off.
- [85:49]
B
I'm about to head on right now all this. Bye. Must be 21 years and older and present in select states. For Kansas, an affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and older and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling Problem Call 1-800-Gambler or 1-800-My Reset, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org backslash chatinconnecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpma.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.
- [86:32]
F
This episode is brought to you by Paramount. In the world of espionage, truth is a moving target and every decision carries a dangerous consequence. In the HC season 2, Martian has a new mission as a double agent. Twice the lies, twice the risk. The lines between ally and enemy blur like never before and survival depends on trusting no one. Starring Michael Fassbender, Jeffrey Wright, Jodie Turner Smith and my man Richard Gere. Don't miss the Agency Season 2 all episodes streaming June 21st on Paramount.
- [87:02]
C
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