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The Ringer NBA Show
NBA Finals Variables: The Experience Factor, New York’s New Look, and More | Group Chat
01:22:49
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- [00:02]
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- [00:26]
Ben Cruz
Foreign.
- [00:44]
Justin Varior
Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varior and joining me, Rob Mahoney. J. Kyle Man, Finals pod.
- [00:52]
Ben Cruz
Let's go, baby.
- [00:54]
Rob Mahoney
You've been very chanty lately. Is it something in the air? Is it these teams? Like, what has you so jazzed?
- [00:58]
Justin Varior
I feel the spirit of competition just coursing through me, baby.
- [01:03]
Rob Mahoney
I love that for you. I love that for us. And I mean, of all the places the season could have gone, this one is a fucking exhilarating outcome. Like to be here in the finals with the spurs and the Knicks 2 team. I'm super excited to talk about. I just, I know we kind of flirted with this idea coming off of the cup that, like, what if this was finals preview? In a way, the, the idea that that of all things ended up being prescient is kind of silly but also kind of rewarding.
- [01:28]
Ben Cruz
Yeah, it'd be fun to go back and listen to. I probably will go see just what we said about that maybe before the tip off on the game just to get a little feel for this. But it's a fun. We'll get in more. More of this in the details, I think of the show. But it is a really fun ju. Position matchup, whatever you want to call it, between two teams that are in different situations, one like ascending with a lot of unwritten, you know, character shape, whatever it is, in who they are with the spurs and a team that's kind of figured things out over years and had many highs and lows in the Knicks. So on that level, it's, it's very exciting with a lot of superstars and a lot of. A lot of different ways that this could go.
- [02:06]
Justin Varior
I think we need the swelling brass behind us as we talk about this. One team on the trajectory to the next level, another team hoping to make history at Madison Square Garden or something.
- [02:19]
Ben Cruz
Was there a Costas intro? Because I was begging for one and I like, was setting up my projector and missed it. I ended up. I was like, I missed the thing I was begging for. Was there. Was there an intro I thought that was if you were ever gonna do one I thought game seven in that situation would have been it.
- [02:33]
Rob Mahoney
Aren't you just the average modern consumer, Kyle? Complain about the lack of something and then don't even pay attention to it whether or not you got it?
- [02:40]
Ben Cruz
Yeah, I screwed the time up. I thought it was 8:30 and it was 8. So I'm like, you know, all over the place.
- [02:46]
Justin Varior
Yeah, the amount of complaining I hear about the like the pre game show or like the mid game show and like I just never listen. I literally just mute it just to make sure that I'm like on time when the ball actually tips off because it takes an extra 15 minutes after they say it's going to start. But there is a lot of pomp and circumstance going on about this matchup. Not only just because the matchup is incredible, but also like Twitter bowling works. So we got the big old trophy back on the court, which is neat to see. Also saw that there's like the 250. What is it? Bicentennial is happening. And so they have a patch all of a sudden on all the jerseys. I was just thinking, 250 years of the US that's nothing. Like we are just a speck on this, on this, this space rock that we're all traveling through time with. That's wild.
- [03:31]
Ben Cruz
What pivot did we just take?
- [03:33]
Justin Varior
I know, 250 years, though. That's not that long ago.
- [03:37]
Rob Mahoney
This is just occurring to you in the grand scheme of human civilization that
- [03:41]
Justin Varior
we're nothing out here seeing a news brief about a patch on an NBA Finals jersey? That's right.
- [03:47]
Rob Mahoney
So does that mean in the grand scheme of existence, are we the Spurs? You know, are we. Are we on the ascendance of something, just starting to. I mean, look, to be honest, we're just getting our legs under us. We've mostly been faltering around for the last couple hundred years at least. So maybe, maybe our brightest times are ahead.
- [04:04]
Justin Varior
Well, that's a good segue. We need to take a break, as per usual. But when we get back, we'll talk NBA Finals preview. But first, we got to talk about game seven, Western Conference Finals.
- [04:14]
Rob Mahoney
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- [04:49]
Justin Varior
we go look at the NBA Finals, we need to talk game seven Western Conference Finals. So I would say the kind of the enduring images I have from that matchup, and there are a few of them. One would be the give and go early in the game in which Wemby just basically took check. Homer and soul just like real quickly never recover from that one, unfortunately. I would say the cornet block. Yeah, of Hartenstein, certainly. But I think the one that I'm going to remember for a very long time is. Down the stretch, the spurs turn it over. OKC needs a quick buck bucket. Shay gets to the rim, but oh no, Wemby's there. He actually has to pull it out and all of a sudden has to reset. Even though they needed the bucket as soon as possible, they needed to come back. And so like that's kind of like what we're up against, Rob. Like that seemed like the real like tidy glimpse of what the future holds where it's just like you could be as good as, as the Thunder could be the two time mvp. But when Wemby is standing there, everything changes.
- [05:48]
Rob Mahoney
They're an amazing team and we just saw them march to the title last year. And yet down the stretch of this one, as it got more and more desperate, it was interesting to watch. Like who was game to even take shots, like who was even willing to step up for the Thunder and like Kayson Wallace was one of those guys who was willing to pull. Alex Caruso was willing to pull. But it's like it can't all be that, you know, And Wemby and the spurs have a way of kind of backing you into a sense of desperation as we've seen over the course of these playoffs. So making you feel like right or wrong, all of your best options have been taken away. The things you default on, the things you rely on are just not as bankable as they used to be. And so Shay had an amazing game. Honestly, I was really happy to see it. Like him put together a good shooting game from the field, just like hitting more of his mid range stuff being a little more immutable in the way that we're used to seeing him be immutable. And yet it still wasn't enough. Like the Thunder just couldn't, they couldn't summon enough of that other stuff around him to make this an actual, you know, an actual game that they could pull out down the stretch. But a tremendous thing to watch. And a tremendous thing to watch. Just like every Spur, by contrast, seemed to pull those plays out of the mud.
- [06:55]
Ben Cruz
Yeah. I mean, Justin, you mentioned that play, that first play of the game that was. I mean, it's almost like a baptism, like a reverse baptism, because it wasn't the kind you want to be a part of, where Wimby. Yeah, just like Wimby just really caught Chet, you know, scrambling out of position. Even if you're in position, Wimby is a tough thing to deal with. But, you know, I remember, you know, flashing back to, I guess it was we were doing the young core rankings, where weren't we when the cup was going on? I think that was like, we were all together in la. And I remember. I remember us having conversations about, you know, what is it that makes a player go from a nice idea to realizing and crystallizing into a superstar? And I've always kind of believed that, like, you know, who you are in the paint is kind of what dictates your ability to be a superstar. Like, what. What. What is your functionality there? And it's like Wimby is just a gigantic asteroid. Speaking of, you know, the history of the Earth and how. How things can change. Wimby is a gigantic asteroid in that. In that lake where, you know, he just causes extinction level events for who you think you are on the floor. And you watched, you know, Shay got in there, and I think that was a great play to point out was at this critical point in the game where you would think your superstar would get into the. The paint and make. Make a play. He does this thing, too, where it's like, we were talking about Nashing, where I was talking about Nashing last week, where you keep your dribble alive intentionally. Shay got in there and had, you know, normally has the intention to score there. He's, like, swiveling and turning back towards the perimeter, which is an excellent place to be if you're on defense and you're. You're like reading Shay's eyes, just chewing up clock throughout this game, man, it was just. It was really impressive. There's a lot more that we could get into. I know we want to talk about the finals, but Wimby just picked his spots really well. You know, spurs had role players that came up and hit just, you know, Julian Champen was just nails throughout this game.
- [08:47]
Rob Mahoney
Unbelievable.
- [08:49]
Ben Cruz
This. This team just kind of answered the bell in some ways. That really, really left me reeling for a few days. Honestly, I was just so impressed by, by their, their youth, the way they stepped up.
- [09:00]
Justin Varior
Well, the crazy thing about the Shea play as well is that Wimby had five fouls on him and he was cruising through a lot of that fourth quarter with five fouls, which made the lack of aggression from Chet, I think, stand out in particular, where it's like at the very least, try to get him out of the game just by drawing contact and he just wouldn't do that. There's that like pretty popular clip that everyone's probably seen by now of him as soon as he gets the ball, hot potatoing out of there. And unfortunately, like, I do think this game will be remembered as kind of an inflection point for Chet. He's 24 years old and so there's still a lot to be written with his story. But like, you could see these things just like burying certain players. Like the extreme example is obviously Ben Simmons. I really don't think that's going to happen to Chad Holgren because of all the extra things he does in addition to offense, like the fact that he can typically shoot the ball or just play defense really well and protect the rim. I don't think it's going to happen. But like, this does feel like a bit of a crossroads moment for him and perhaps the Thunder. What do you think, Rob?
- [10:01]
Rob Mahoney
I think Chet is an amazing player against like 27 teams and this is just one of the matchups that is uniquely awful for him.
- [10:09]
Ben Cruz
Yeah.
- [10:09]
Rob Mahoney
And so, but, but if that one team that you need to go through not just this year, but in future years hangs over you all the time, it can define your story. It can tell, you know, be. It can become who you are as a player over the course of your career and the way that you're remembered. So it is an inflection point. This is a. You know, the Thunder are going to have a lot of decisions to make about how much to continue with this shape of their roster versus how much they want to start planning ahead for what the next five years look like in this sort of competitive environment. And Chad is going to have to be a lot better like that. I'm. I'm glad you brought up that play too, Justin, because that is one of the indelible images of the game is Chet passing up really any opportunity to attack Victor Weyama one on one or otherwise. But that one was so glaring and so damning. You can't be a non scorer, ineffective in guarding on the Ball on defense. And just like the contrast of putting Jalen Williams in the game and him being so much more effective than Chet, Isaiah Hardenstein coming into the game and giving you so much more to offer than Chet, it can't be that way like him. It can't be like that for him forever. So he's gonna have to change a lot. But I think the Thunder might have to at least consider how they want to go about the creative suite of their offense. Like, just having A.J. mitchell back was not going to change the outcome of the series. Having J Dub back might have, and having both of them certainly might have. But even that might not be enough the next time these two teams meet in the playoffs.
- [11:33]
Ben Cruz
I've had that same thought that you were saying about, you know, against everybody else, it's like, and Chet, we, we mentioned this earlier in the playoffs. You know, when he's got DeAndre Ayton in front of him or he's got these typical big guys, it's just he is a certain level of like, wiggliness and cross section of wiggliness and skill at a player his size that is a handful to deal with for most fives in the NBA. But it just so happens that a player who has his traits but just happens to be, you know, six inches taller is playing at the same time as him, and it gives him all kinds of problems. And even like the proportions of his wingspan are longer. You know, it's like. So he is just sort of a. An answer to everything that Chet does well. And I've kind of wondered if I was gonna say, you know, a lot of the panic, I'm not really going along with people on that front because I feel like it would be. It would be pretty short sighted and really erroneous to like overreact to this because I think there's some. Go ahead.
- [12:31]
Rob Mahoney
Also antithetical to everything we know about the Thunder and the way Sam Pressy operates. Like trading Chet Holmgren now is not really the kind of thing the Thunder do well.
- [12:40]
Justin Varior
No, no, but I, I think he's had a long enough track record that he actually has done a little bit of everything. Like you want to pigeonhole him as someone with the long view, but really, like, as soon as the giddy problem arose, like he got rid of it. It's a different level. Like trading chat on a max when he still seems like pretty integral to what you do is different than giddy, who was a problem in the regular season going into the playoffs, it just became such a big issue that was in the playoffs. But, like, he's. It's so funny because it's just like, oh, well, maybe they won't go star chasing. But it's like, oh, he also pulled off the Paul George trade, and so there's a lot of things colliding at once. I don't disagree that I don't think it will happen, but I do think it's in his bag to do something more extreme than you expect.
- [13:21]
Rob Mahoney
I don't know about the extreme on the high end. Like, yes, going chasing after Paul George is one thing, but, like, obviously, what's in the air right now is Giannis is on the trade market. Could he be an option for the Thunder? And, you know, whether you want to put Chet or J Dub into that conversation is up to you. It's not just bailing at the first sign of trouble in the Josh Giddey kind of mold, but also trading youth and a player who has a lot of career ahead of him and a lot of opportunity ahead of him. For someone who is a little more defined and who has an injury history, it's like it's accepting a different kind of risk that we have seen the Thunder make trades and make moves for the here and now. I would say more so in the previous era than this one, but this is where we're kind of getting with okc. It's like all of the pieces are maturing to a point where they could start to make some of the. Like, do we trade for a Kendrick Perkins? Like, I'm saying, metaphorically, not a literal Kendrick Perkins type, but, like, do you make that sort of move that makes you that much more formidable and solid in the playoffs at the expense of. Of some of the youth you've worked so hard to build? It's just a tough proposition. And Chad in particular is such a fascinating prospect still. I. I just don't think they would pull the plug on him so quickly.
- [14:29]
Ben Cruz
I. I think that he's. Well, you're right that he has almost had, like, a Taylor Swift kind of eras thing where we've seen him two different things. But I think there is a pattern among them, though, where it's like. If you compare it, like, I. I think of, like, songwriting, it's like the changing the instrumentation or the. Where the sections go. Like, some of the core structural things. He's been. He's shown a willingness to do those things early on, but, like, they're at the point now where they're tweaking, you know, the mix. They're tweaking sort of the post production things of what they. Of this realized thing that they have. I don't know that he would go back and just be like I'm gonna like change. Change the core, the structure of what we have going on here. Because it's worked. Also because this game went, this series went to seven games. Yeah. And they were missing an all star and they're arguably some, you know, an all NBA guy. And then AJ M. I was just going to say I think there are some tweakable things where I think the speed. This is just far be it for me to give Chet Holmgren basketball advice but I just, I'm looking at the speed of some of the things that he does and we talked about it. The load up of his shot and his comfort level shooting it quickly. The difference between him and Carl Towns who the spurs are going to be facing in this series is gigantic. And I think that shed is going to have to. He's going to have to raise his comfort level shooting the ball faster. If you look at some of the moves that he really relies on, on his self creation, he gets to that little hop back and then the spin, it's very slow. Granted he's so much bigger than everybody else that it doesn't always matter. Against Wimy it does. I just think some of the speed and then his handle is probably an area where he could fix that. But then also just having all their guys is going to change the parameters in the situations where he catches the ball.
- [16:07]
Justin Varior
Yeah, I do think adding some strength would help. I just think adding a degree of physicality would perhaps keep like round out things in a way that perhaps could lead to him like getting more time for the three pointer or at the very least like having more confidence in it because after a certain point like it wasn't just this game, it was kind of trickling throughout this playoffs and especially came to a head in the Western Conference finals where it's just like he seemed a little shell shocked like most of the time and I do wonder if like incremental progress will help that. I, I would be surprised if they did anything with him on the trade market if only because he's at the nadir of his valley and that doesn't seem like a presti move. If I was to be concerned overall about like the Thunder going forward. I think it's more about case of Wallace kind of insinuating that like perhaps he would like a bigger role and maybe they figure things out. The Thunder, despite like anything big, they do have to figure things out because of the second apron and so many of these contracts like coming home to roos because both JDub and Chad's Max kicks in next season. But like if you have a guy like Wallace, all of a sudden you don't win the title and he's like, oh, I want something different. Like that becomes an issue because the, the great thing about depth is you have this wealth of talent but all of a sudden you're spinning so many different plates. Right. With the big three. It's like, oh, you just have to
- [17:18]
Ben Cruz
worry about disease of more little. Little disease more in there case. And yeah, you can't really like as
- [17:24]
Justin Varior
an organization plan against like human behavior. Like just like someone having aspiration in a different way that doesn't align with like your bigger term goals. The fact that they've gotten this far is already kind of a masterclass in the subject. But like different guys wanting out and wanting different things. Like then it becomes a little bit more tricky.
- [17:44]
Ben Cruz
Sure.
- [17:45]
Justin Varior
So, so perhaps they do something in that regard. Maybe it's just to even open up a playing like more playing time or even a start like a regular starting role for him. But something's going to happen.
- [17:55]
Rob Mahoney
I think that's the easy answer.
- [17:56]
Ben Cruz
We are.
- [17:57]
Rob Mahoney
We already talked on a previous spot about Lou Dort and his future with the team. It seems pretty clear that Kayson is ready to usurp a lot of that opportunity in those minutes. And it's like you can, you can get him a more consistent starting role, you can get him more minutes, you can get him more on ball touches. A lot of that is already here within the architecture of the team to do it also did feel to me a little bit just like a guy negotiating his extension in public as pretty much happens with every player as they get into this stage of things. Like the Thunder are a team that for very understandable reason would want to mind its finances very specifically to try to keep as much of this core together as they possibly could. And Casey Wallace also rightly so, is out here trying to make fucking bank and deserves it. So there is that tension, there is that push and pull. But I think you're, I think you're right to identify this JV because it's so much of the talk around the Thunder and around NBA teams in general these days is from like a, a fantasy GM kind of perspective of like, oh, you have these players, you have these picks, you have these assets. If you just keep them together and add this other piece, voila. Title. But all of these Guys have their own agency. All of them are going to hit their own free agencies. All of them are going to be able to request or push for trades or be unsettled by their roles. It's like those human elements are so easy to gloss over when you're on your way to a championship. And I think a little easier to take for granted at a moment like this where it would be understandable, if not predictable, for some people in the Thunder to want a little bit more than they already have.
- [19:23]
Ben Cruz
Kate. The distance, there's a pretty funny. Speaking of distances between players, it's funny how, how different it is between Dort and Cason, where it's like, were so excited about how willing to embrace the moment Cason was at the end of that game. We were just like, damn it, Case and Wallace, hell yeah, man. Big shot. Like, he matched that big three that Kelden hit in the corner, drove to the basket, high glass floater. And, you know, contrast that with Dort's lack of fear. The moment where you're like, oh, be a little more afraid.
- [19:57]
Rob Mahoney
Healthy fear is good, I think.
- [19:58]
Ben Cruz
Yeah, maybe don't do that. Like what we don't take. Take that shot. The early threes, it's like, I'm, you know, I'm sure a lot of ulcers were formed because of Dort's fearlessness.
- [20:07]
Justin Varior
Yeah, but something's got to happen. I mean, we talked about, like, they have three picks in the draft and you can only roster one guy as of right now. Like, yeah, there's going to be more activity for a team that, as we mentioned, without two of its top players came within like a couple points in a Game seven of going back to the NBA Finals in an era of great parody like, like, it's really a slim thing we're talking about here. So the Thunder don't need to do anything dramatic. I agree with what you guys are saying, but, like, they have to do something because they have to do something. Like the it. The math doesn't math right.
- [20:40]
Rob Mahoney
They will have to make some moves with their roster just by the numbers. That's the reality of the situation. Also, like, as we're talking about their what the team needs and what the offense relies on. Like, they need a version of Chet or a player in that spot who can stay on the floor in a game like this and make productive plays, a little shooting also wouldn't hurt more. Generally, a little more ball handling to relieve some of the pressure on Shay would help. Ideally, you're getting that from J.B. dub and A.J. mitchell. But one other option wouldn't hurt things either. And that's where like Nikola Topic is sitting right there. We're going to see if he's ever a real active member of this rotation at any point. You, you know, he's, he's had a lot going on over the past calendar year. Maybe by next season he's a more entrenched part of what the Thunder are.
- [21:20]
Justin Varior
Yeah. So as a result of the Thunder losing, we will now get our eighth straight different champion, which I believe is unparalleled. How do you guys feel about this overall? Like, is it nice to have something new every year or are. I mean the whole thing about the, the Cavs warriors squaring off every year was like that actually, like the ratings suggested that people actually love that they love their two favorite teams and the history and the storylines going at it. Like, where do you guys fall on this map?
- [21:51]
Rob Mahoney
I love what it does to us. Like the way, and I say that us as like a broader basketball people, the way it forces us to reconsider what we think we know about the sport and what gets a team to this point. It's like all of the truisms of life in the NBA are kind of melting away given what's going on with the cap and the apron, given the rigors of the NBA regular season. Just like I guess experience kind of matters, but doesn't, I guess like certain kinds of teams get to the finals, except for all these other ones. Like there's so many counterexamples to counter examples, to counter examples now that I like, I feel invigorated by how like back footed we are trying to make predictions about literally anything. That part does feel exciting to me.
- [22:34]
Ben Cruz
Well, yeah, it goes back and forth and I was sort of like flashing back just trying to imagine what I was thinking and what people were saying. Granted, the Warriors Cav stuff was like, I mean, predated me covering the NBA most of it. But I remember going into those finals really being riveted and excited about them. But also there was the, the counter of. I remember people being like, they ruined it. You know, it's. It's a funny, it's a funny balance of people thinking that that basketball was ruined because that we had this expectation that was met every year, every June because those two teams would be in the finals. Yeah, I personally, I think back to about like my years really enjoying baseball, which has gone on and off, you know, you know, throughout my life where the times when I was most interested in it, when it Was like evil empire, New York Yankees, years there when I was in high school, like in the early 2000s, where they were just this, you know, daunting force that, you know, we had to find a way to take them down. Everybody was just like, empires are fun in sports. So. And on the other side of it, like keeping with the, with the Star wars comparison here, it's just like, you know, when there's peace in the galaxy, it's kind of boring. Like, I don't know, it's like the
- [23:42]
Rob Mahoney
parody is like you're saying the NBA is.
- [23:45]
Ben Cruz
I know, yeah, maybe I thought Rob was gonna say that I'm like a fascist at heart or something here, but I just do. You'll see what I'm saying. Like it is the pair, the empires are fun. I like that everybody has a chance to win, but it's like I also don't have a team. So I'm coming from that perspective. I just, I, I'm a, you know, a neutral observer here, but I like that everybody has a chance. But it is fun whenever there's this daunting thing that needs to be taken down. Like, that's fun theater to me.
- [24:12]
Justin Varior
I agree. I, I think the problem with Cavs warriors is that at a certain point it just became predetermined and fatalistic where it's just like we knew that was going to happen and so it was just kind of a fast forward effect through everything else to get to that point. Unless you were like really ingrained in the, the finer details of the day to day of the NBA, this doesn't have that. And so perhaps we could have our cake and eat it too. Like if the spurs ascend and they are the big bad waiting there, but things are different getting up to there, or at the very least there is enough, especially in the west, in order to perhaps muddle that. If like the Thunder like that, that one team that they're going back and forth, but there's a different team from the East. It would help a lot if the east played their part because the east playoffs was pretty cut and dry this year. Maybe like injuries finally like sorting themselves out, like with the Celtics and the Cavs finally getting their together. Like maybe we'll have a good east playoffs, but yeah, we're. I think we're headed in the right direction is what I would say.
- [25:06]
Rob Mahoney
I think so. I mean, just when you think about what, what are the things that are narratively satisfying about a TV show, a movie, a sports season, like whatever it is, it's like you want that uncertainty in the middle where everything feels a little bit muddled. It can't feel like a straight line or else we just talk ourselves into it too quickly and by the time June actually comes around, we did our NBA Finals preview in like November, and so what is even the point of going through this exercise? So you want the Knicks to have a moment of crisis in January, February. You want times in the season where it was like, are the Nuggets the best team in the league and are they going to march all the way to the title through the Thunder to get there? You want moments of consideration of like, how deep do the ranks of the contenders actually go? And the more and more parody we see in the league, I think the more we're going to be open to considering, as we did this year, like, who are the next version of the Pacers? Who is the team that's kind of hiding in plain sight that could pull it all together at just the right time. You want all of that confusion, even if in the end it's who you expect to be there? Because I think that's just what creates that sort of logical consistency of like, okay, we've seen the trials of these teams, we've talked ourselves through all the alternatives and all the options and we still got somewhere that made sense to us.
- [26:18]
Justin Varior
I also think you don't want the outcome to be determined too much by like, injuries, which is also a sad part of this. And it probably segues nicely to our first question.
- [26:28]
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- [27:59]
Ben Cruz
so good, so good, so good.
- [28:02]
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- [28:26]
Justin Varior
So we don't have a new, fresh track for the variables. We're going to do this variable style, but we can't call it the variable. So we are going to call this our NBA Finals variables. Okay. But we're just not going to spell it in the correct way because I don't put my stamp of approval on it. We're just spelling it V A, R I, A B, L, E, S. That distant.
- [28:49]
Ben Cruz
That distant thumping sound you heard was people in their cars hitting the roof. Like, like just.
- [28:55]
Rob Mahoney
Damn it. Yeah.
- [28:56]
Justin Varior
Driving off the road. Pull over.
- [29:00]
Rob Mahoney
I don't know what to do with a normal variable anymore. I'm just used to orienting my life around variables.
- [29:07]
Justin Varior
That's the exact reaction I would hope you to have. So these are just variables. They're not variables.
- [29:14]
Rob Mahoney
That's messed up. Yeah, I guess. You know, we will try to soldier on, but I'm uncomfortable at the prospect. I have to say.
- [29:22]
Ben Cruz
It's all. This is all so important. It's all so important that we figure this out and get all those details right. It's. I love hearing you guys work through it.
- [29:30]
Rob Mahoney
Thanks.
- [29:31]
Justin Varior
Yeah, perhaps someone can. Can get Travis Scott in Sweden and just have them just, like cut us a track real quick.
- [29:40]
Rob Mahoney
You had your chance to go make your flea in person and you chose not to. You prioritize doing your job.
- [29:45]
Ben Cruz
The grind is there, man. He had to do it.
- [29:47]
Justin Varior
Which for everybody listening back home, you should know that everyone at our company is currently at Sweden listening to Travis Scott and just not us doing Team building activities. I don't know what people do there anyways. But we're talking about the NBA Finals and we're going to talk about some variables. I have five lined up for us. First, I want to talk about experience. So, as you may know, the spurs are way younger than most teams that get to this point. In fact, according to an NBA statistic where they weigh age based on postseason playing time, the spurs are the second youngest team in NBA history to ever make the NBA Finals. Can you guys guess what number one is?
- [30:25]
Rob Mahoney
Well, I'm assuming it's not the Thunder.
- [30:28]
Justin Varior
Thunder number two. So last year's Thunder or number three. Excuse me. So the spurs are two, Thunder three.
- [30:35]
Rob Mahoney
Who else was a particularly young. Can we get like a range of time? Like how distant is this?
- [30:40]
Justin Varior
70s.
- [30:41]
Ben Cruz
Okay, yeah, it's Blazers then.
- [30:43]
Justin Varior
Yeah, right, the Blazers.
- [30:45]
Ben Cruz
Yeah, I read that book this summer. So yeah, I was trying to think back about recommend that book if anybody hasn't read it. But yeah, and then 86 rockets was the other one. Right. That was pretty young. Where are they on the list? Do you have it?
- [30:58]
Justin Varior
I only have the top three because that was the only thing on the quote card.
- [31:02]
Rob Mahoney
That's all we need.
- [31:03]
Justin Varior
But I think it is notable that two of the top three teams here come from the past to postseasons from the West. It does feel like we are in a different era where younger teams are ascending more quickly. Perhaps that's just because we have generational stars on them and also like these teams got to the depth element quicker than some other teams. And so there's a lot of things at play here. I guess the question, Rob, I have her is like, how much can we rely on the old axiom at this point because experience typically dictated some part of the playoffs and ultimately the title Winder winner. Do you think it matters at all or if anything, do you think it helps that the spurs are young and perhaps more fresh in an era where like injuries are starting to mount as well?
- [31:47]
Rob Mahoney
It always matters in some way. And I mean we, we talked a little bit about the pomp and circumstance of like the promotion of the Finals at the top of the show. It is true that it just like feels like a totally different environment if you are a player in this series. It catches a lot of guys off guard in terms of. You can see the jitters, you can see the nervousness, you can see the pressure playing on this stage. I think it catches up to players and people in ways you might not always expect. And I don't think it's going to divide along like young guys versus old guys or spurs versus Knicks or anything like that. In part because it's not like the Knicks have a wealth of championship experience either. Like Michaela Bridges has been to a Finals. Jalen Brunson has a, you know, collegiate championship experience. Very different thing. OG Anunoby is technically a champion, but was not a part of that Raptors run whatsoever because he was injured. And so everyone is kind of on a similar playing field. And I think one thing I have come to learn about watching the spurs throughout these playoffs is even though they are not an experienced team and this is the first real run for the spurs group, it's also every opponent's first opportunity trying to understand what the hell to do with Victor Wembanyama on the floor. And that is a totally unique experience. When you have a superstar who is that singular that you have to account for. I don't know how much experience is really going to prepare you for that kind of thing.
- [32:59]
Ben Cruz
Yeah, I think it comes down to just sort of how you ground yourself whenever things start to go sideways really or, you know, and sideways can take a lot of different forms. You're hit with a stage that you're. That you're not used to or, you know, there's a run happening or whatever. I listen to it like in the off season or just throughout the year, I'll. I just will try to hit myself with like voices of. I'll listen to like coaches and things like that. Just talk about basketball to just mix me up and one and just hear just different things, odd, whatever. It might be a strategy thing or just chemistry, philosophy, development, whatever it is. But there's one coach that was talking about just the storm basically that happens in a big game where, you know, the other team is going on a run and you can just see it happening. Like the Cavs are an example of when the storm hit, they just kind of jumped off the side of the boat, let go of the rope, whatever analogy you want to use. And throughout this game seven, I think this. Spinning this forward to what to expect from the Spurs. But in this like game seven that they won, there were several times where OKC was coming and they grounded themselves. You watched it happen in real time where they've just repeatedly shown this ability to be like the. And. And I think to. To get right and stabilize. And I think a lot of that sort of ripples out from Wimby, whether or not he's scoring or not. It's just he has a conscientiousness he's never like freaking out. I told you, like, when he was younger, he used to kind of get carried away and he doesn't really do that anymore. So I think that that's going on where I just think that I'm not going to bet against their ability to ground themselves. Granted, the final stage is a little bit different. But then there's the other thing that I was saying earlier is that we kind of know who the Knicks are in a way. Granted, they made some adjustments, like with the way that they're using Cat that we could talk about, but the spurs are so unwritten and they're still getting better. Like, Dylan Harper is not the guy today that he was in December when we were talking about them. Stefan Castle, Same thing. Wimby, same thing. They have so many dudes who are ascending in a way where the Knicks. Who's ascending on the Knicks at this point. They're all kind of in their primes, right?
- [35:02]
Rob Mahoney
They're in there. Yeah, they're in their primes. But like, I think Cat, OG and Mikhail are all playing like, as well as they have ever played.
- [35:09]
Ben Cruz
I'm not, I'm not diminishing them when I say that. I'm just saying we know who they are. More where it's like the spurs are still working towards that. They're not to that stage yet. Yeah, right. Yeah.
- [35:19]
Justin Varior
I think the flip side of this too is like, how much injuries impact a team and how much just the gauntlet of a regular season into a long NBA Finals, long postseason is affecting certain teams. Tom Habershow has been calling this the championship tax or the postseason tax, where it's just like you're starting to see the wear and tear and perhaps that helped the spurs in the Thunder matchup where they lose two key players. But like, I mean, we say this all the time, like, how much load management is, is needed. I feel like I use the word torque more in the past year or two than I ever have just because of the amount of just stress on the body. Just going through all this is happening. And I think that's something we need to reconcile with and because if you look at the teams like, yeah, the spurs have had their Dings, Fox and Harper, we'll see. Like, they looked, Harper in particular looks really good those last two games against the Thunder. But like, these teams are largely healthy outside of Mitchell Robinson all of a sudden having a broken finger hand situation
- [36:18]
Ben Cruz
that, that swung the series back towards San Antonio. The fact that those two dudes look normal because in the games they lost there in the middle of the series, they were non. They were not themselves.
- [36:27]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. And I think in regard to this collective toll, I agree with you about like the spurs getting healthy, getting Fox and Harper with momentum is a huge thing for them in this series, just as it was in the conf Finals. This is a different way to think about something like experience. But this is also the third consecutive Knicks opponent that's coming off of a seven game series into a series against the Knicks. And ask the Cavs how much fun that is. Like, this is not a team you want to play if you're in any way weary. And so the break for like a even a little bit of rest, I think goes a long way for the Spurs. Getting those guys back, the guards in particular with their legs under them is a huge development for them. But if the physical and emotional toll of the Western Conference finals is hanging over San Antonio in any way, and that was a huge series for them to bust through and win, I mean, the Knicks are exactly the kind of opponent who can take advantage of that. Like the momentary inattention, like any, any lack of commitment to detail, the Knicks have shown they can exploit that in really explosive ways over the course of this postseason.
- [37:28]
Justin Varior
All right, since we're talking about the Knicks, why don't we go to number two here? Unfortunately, we don't have a nice little jingle to, to carry us in there and so you could just make one up in your head. Rob, unless you want to hum something real quick.
- [37:39]
Rob Mahoney
You know what, I'm good. This is just a regular old podcast with regular old variables.
- [37:42]
Justin Varior
Okay, so the Knicks playing probably the best of anyone in the playoffs, just absolutely steamrolling. So since they went down two to one on the Hawks, they've won literally every single game since they are 11 0. Just absolutely blistering on both sides of the the floor. So Kyle, I'm curious what you think about the Knicks just overall, like what's different about them? Because clearly last postseason when we last saw them, things weren't as just free flowing and fun, I would say. Under Tom Thibodeau. What are you seeing from this year's Knicks that have allowed them to have such success?
- [38:22]
Ben Cruz
I mean their, their role players are playing fantastic. I think we can get to the root cause of why that is. I mean, I, I went and looked this up specifically Bridges, Cat Brunson and og. The only guy in their starting lineup that isn't seeing a significant jump in efficiency in the playoffs is Josh Hart, who's adding, you Know, as. As Josh Hart does little, little intangible things all over the place. But, you know, Bridges, during the regular season, 49% from the field, he's at 58.6. In the playoffs, Cat was at 50%. During the regular season, he's at 57. Let's see, OG is a big one here, 48.4. During the regular season, he's At 57.7 and he's shooting almost 49% from 3. Yeah, those guys are getting better shots and making them, which is a function of things that we've talked about in the past on the show, which is that they're just letting Cat pass the ball more in the Hawks series, that was him. And this is an interesting kind of path that they've been on as opposed to what they're getting ready to see in Victor Wimanyama where, you know, the Hawks didn't have a true five. That's something that's going to behoove them in the off season and the draft is to go answer that question, wherever that is. But he could just pass over the top of a Kongwu. And that was, you know, play more inside to out in against the, you know, the Sixers who had, you know, a sarcophagus out there, a corpse that was, you know, artists formerly known as Joel Embiid. It was a little bit more. They were using their guards to kind of screen each other. He was playing further out on the floor and the same thing with the Cavs. So I think that's been the biggest thing is that, you know, whether or not they're passing against a team that has a smaller big from the inside out or from the outside in the way that they were in their last two series. That's what's worked. But that's going to be radically different against the spurs. And I think that's something that we should, we should pick at a little bit.
- [40:08]
Rob Mahoney
But if you told the rob of 2025 or 2024 that the Knicks would become that kind of team, I don't know that I would have believed you. Like, I don't know.
- [40:17]
Ben Cruz
I would have been excited. If you told me that made it
- [40:19]
Rob Mahoney
more dynamic, I would be incredibly excited. But it just, it did not seem. Seem like it was in the DNA of the way the Knicks played, of who Jalen Brunson was, certainly of the way that Tibbs was coaching. Like it. That was a team that has basically run into the wall three consecutive years in the playoffs. And their only solution was like, I guess Jalen Brunson back up and run into the wall again and hope you burst through it this time. And this whole playoffs has been an exercise in what if instead of doing that, we just scaled it or just walked around it? What if we, what if we made accommodations to not go through the hardest part of the defense at literally every opportunity? And I think shifting from a team that needs Jalen Brunson to do everything into one that drafts off of him, to do all of this other stuff has just unlocked so many things about who the Knicks are, who these role players are. It's given them a depth to their offense. And I say that not just in terms of like tapping into the bench in ways that they didn't in previous seasons, but just layering in alternatives that don't involve Jalen Brunson having to dribble for 15 seconds to make something happen.
- [41:20]
Justin Varior
Yeah, it's, it's crazy the, like, how stark of a change it's been. And to that point, the Knicks fired Tibs one year ago on the day of game one of the NBA Finals. So on Wednesday, that will be the one year anniversary of moving on from Tibs. And like, it just feels night and day. I, I mean, we should mention that they're just shooting the out of the ball in a way that like few teams do going into the playoffs. They're leading the playoffs in 2 point percentage and also 3 point percentage, basically shooting 59, 4076 as an entire team. And so that helps that like all of their shooters have been dialed in, except for Josh Hart, who ironically had a very good regular season. But apparently like these role players that just shoot the hell out of the ball all of a sudden just apparently can't strike a divide between regular and postseason. I mean, I think the cat wrinkle is something that we should talk about here, where it's just like his playmaking has just been an absolute other level. Like basically his assist percentage is like approximating Brunson. Like he's been doing so much more of that and I do wonder if like he's able to continue that going into this series. How much does this change because like all of a sudden, like, can you stick a smaller, more physical guard on him, which the spurs have in depth because you don't have the length in order to, to kind of impede some of his, his passing qualities because he's just so big and he pass over the defense and so I, I just, I just think he's playing like the best I've ever seen him. Having said that, that does worry me a little bit because I do kind of feel like this entire finals rest on Cat being a sort of guy that we haven't seen before.
- [42:51]
Rob Mahoney
He's gonna have to be awesome. I mean, we've seen it over the course of these previous rounds, but it's like, yeah, can he sustain it against increasing levels of competition and now something he's never had to confront in the playoffs before in this spurs team and Victor Wembanyama specifically. It's going to be an incredible trial. But to me, like, Cat has been the answer to all of the Brunson related questions, frankly, like, the whole, like, is Jalen Brunson? Like, can you win with a small guard driving this much offense? The answer is yes, if you have a center who can also be a playmaking hug and see over the top of the defense in just the way you described jv. So it's like he is the piece that allows them to get to all of these options more quickly, to balance all of the threats on the floor more succinctly than a small guard having to play out of a double team every possession down the floor. And I think the larger adaptability of the Knicks is the story of their postseason. And they've just proven to be, frankly, like, lighter on their feet in shifting from strategy to strategy and tactic to tactic than any other team in the field. And Cat is a huge reason why. Mike Brown is clearly a huge reason why. And he deserves a ton of credit for, like, layering in all of these things over the course of the season, even when they weren't entirely working and pivoting and pivoting and really turning everything the Knicks have done this year into such a fluid, adaptive process. If they, if they hit an obstruction, they alter it slightly, they tweak slightly, they change the rotation, they change their approach. And Kat has become the kind of player who allows you to do that, which is an incredible transformation from the sort of, like, boneheaded over fouling, like, can't trust him to establish post position. Kind of flaky playoff performer he was in his younger years. Like, he really has come into himself.
- [44:32]
Ben Cruz
Yeah. And what's interesting is his touches are almost the exact same from these past two playoffs. They're right at 50. So he's made a really conscious change that he deserves a lot of credit for. In terms of their offense, though, to speak to what you're saying there, Rob, I think it's the Valentina hot sauce thing. I don't know if you guys have ever used Valentina hot sauce.
- [44:51]
Rob Mahoney
I use it all the time. So I'm very eager to know what the relevance is to my life.
- [44:56]
Ben Cruz
You ever noticed the spout of the Valentina? It has. It's one hole. It has two holes. You know why that second hole is there? So that it comes out smoother. It needs that extra. Needs the air extra. Needs that extra airflow. And I think that this is something that's true. I mean, coffee cups also a lot of different things. Miller lied. Had that thing where you could like
- [45:16]
Rob Mahoney
it's proprietary Valentina's technology anyway.
- [45:19]
Ben Cruz
It's. Or like you'll see like a. Like a fire barrel that'll have a hole punctured. It's the oxygen you want the. And I think that cat doing this has given them more oxygen so that they are burning hotter. But with the. With the experience. I think you see this with like old college teams. A lot of times they have like this ability to make adjustments that make people guard longer into the clock or just like they'll make a by, you know, a quick adjustment that is executed efficiently. You know, you can have a good idea, but you don't execute it well. You know, your good idea is a fart sound, basically. But you know, the Knicks, I think have. I'm just. I'm interested in the matchups in this one. Do we want to. Have we segued to the matchups part of this? Because I know this was something we were going to officially segue to. Are we at that point of the podcast?
- [46:02]
Justin Varior
All right, we can get right to that right after this break. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. It all comes down to this. Who do you think will be wearing the ring at the end of the NBA Finals? Make your call with FanDuel right now. New customers can hit the court with $350 in bonus bets guaranteed. After betting $5 for seven straight days, FanDuel is the best place to bet all your favorite players during the NBA Finals. Bet on their baskets and boards or build a same game parlay for a chance at a bigger payout. So looking at the Finals, looking at Finals MVP odds, Wemby Brunson top two. I don't know how much you're going to make off of that. So I kind of like towns plus 2200. Kind of thought he should have maybe been the Eastern Conference finals mvp. Can see if things go right for the Knicks, he would be in position to Perhaps win Finals MVP. So at 2200 2200, just give me towns for Finals MVP. Just visit FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to get started. 21 select states 18 DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. First online real money wager only. Minimum five dollar wager required for seven consecutive days. Bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus. Best expire seven days after receipt. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. All right, number three on the docket. We got the matchups. A lot of them to to diagnose here. Where do you guys want to start? Well, maybe just start with like the most interesting one. And is it or are we all going to agree that it's whether or not Wemby guards heart?
- [47:37]
Rob Mahoney
I I think it has to be and that's not just a question for this series, but I think it's going to be the question for basically every spurs playoff series for the foreseeable future is where is Victor Wembanyama on the floor on defense? Because that is going to determine the vast majority of the game, the vast majority of the matchup. Like what the other team tries to do and where they're frustrated. And it's just kind of awesome that a 22 year old who is maybe the best player in the world is dominating in that way that that's how we have to think of him. It's not even who guards Wemby yet, but like how much, how much of a problem can he create for everyone? Because we just saw him put Chet Holmgren in a prison of his own mind without even guarding him.
- [48:17]
Justin Varior
Yeah. So they last faced off on March 1st during that torrid stretch where I think the spurs only lost since February 1st. Four games, three of them worth it of the Nuggets. And one was that game on March 1st to the Knicks. And so in that game, Wemby guarded Hart, Castle guarded Towns, baseline, Bridges and Fox was on Brunson. I have to assume they'll do something to start with at least the same. They'll start with that just because of the way they guarded Caruso until he hit a ton of shots. I think that makes sense. But Kyle, I think this is ultimately circles back to your cat point where it's like can you get away with putting Castle on cat because the physicality that he plays with perhaps matches him. But then on the flip side of that you have the, the playmaking part of this and then you have the old dimension of like the three point threat where like cat is probably, I guess porzingis would probably the best version of this. But like, Cat is approximating this. Like, that would be. If you were to draw up a way to kind of counter what Victor does. Not necessarily just completely erase him, but like, someone who would provide him difficulty would be like a stretch big who could play make from the top of the perimeter that forces you out. And so once again, it seems like Cat has the key here.
- [49:30]
Ben Cruz
Yeah. If you were. If you're trying to think of the ideal of a type of team that would stress the spurs in an interesting way. It would be like. Like you said, a shooting five. Just so happens that maybe, I mean, you could throw. Dirk is obviously in this. People start quibbling about who's a center, who isn't a center. It's like Cat is. If he's not the best shooting center of all time, he's right there in that short list. He's an incredible quick. Like, he's one of the fastest shots. Really, really efficient. So that's going to be a unique thing. I'm kind of curious. You mentioned, like, putting Castle on him. I kind of felt like it was implied that Castle would be on Brunson. I would start there. Is that. Do we agree or are we on lockstep on that?
- [50:09]
Justin Varior
Depends on how healthy these guys are. Like, yeah, can Fox not take that? I think the problem is with Cat. Like, you want the physical. Like, is Viscel physical enough? He has like, a slight bit more of length, but, like, I think it probably.
- [50:22]
Rob Mahoney
Champagne would be the alternative. Right. It's either do you want like a little. Like a little more size, but not as much physicality with Julian Jimpenny, or do you want someone like Castle who can sort of bait Kat into maybe being aggressive in ways that aren't productive for the Knicks?
- [50:38]
Justin Varior
And you want to put a guard on OG as opposed to putting Champagne. Like, because OG might be the strongest guy on the. On the court.
- [50:44]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. Which is a legitimate problem. Like, him being that strong on closeouts is a real weapon in a way that he's not just like a normal 3 and D threat.
- [50:53]
Ben Cruz
Yeah. I mean, I was looking at this and I was. You wouldn't. You don't really want to make changes like this at this time of the year. But I was like, I'm going to be curious to see the staggered kind of lineups when Harper is out there to sort of strengthen the. The sort of switchy chain that the. That the spurs have access to here. I started from the, like, the. The Knicks are an interesting parallel to, like, stylistically to the way that the Thunder play, granted, the way, you know, adding Cats, playmaking hub. Part of this, the spurt, the. The Thunder don't really have this, but they. They do sort of rely on a guy who is mostly an isolation score, who's just a little bit smaller. I would throw Castle with, talking about Brunson, obviously, I would throw Castle on him. And then I kind of tried to arrange this around to figure out a way to have Wimby not guard heart, just because that's the conventional thing that we all agree on. I'm like, I don't want to just be like, that's for sure.
- [51:45]
Rob Mahoney
But it's conventional for a reason, you know? Yeah, I know. I know. It's such a tempting option.
- [51:51]
Ben Cruz
Yeah. Fox, who Fox guards is. Is almost as interesting to me because I'm like, the thing that the Knicks have that the Thunder don't have is that I think their shot makers are. Their extra spacers are a little more reliable, and they're bigger. You know, Bridges is 67 and OG is 6 8. They're really shooting the hell out of the ball. And then you have Cat shooting the ball, too. That the size and the quality of the shooting in that size, I think, is a big difference between the Knicks and the Thunder.
- [52:16]
Justin Varior
Yeah, I have it sketched out like you do, but I think you're kind of circling the main, like, kind of tension point of the series where it's like, in a way, this is kind of the final boss of the spurs being able to trumpet their build overall, where the, The. The Knicks are almost like the extreme version of what we're used to, where it's just like these big, physical wings that can go both ways. And for that reason, like, the physicality of a lot of these guards that the spurs have is met with, like, physical guys who are also bigger than them. And so, like, the, the push and pull of that is going to be interesting, especially considering the boards element we can get into to Mitchell Robinson and like, the injury effect on him. But, like, they're just not going to be able to push them around in a way that perhaps they had some success with with earlier opponents. But I, I just. I just see the skill advantage just being such like, a tilt the other way, where it's like, you talk about Harper, like, it's funny because I have everything all mashed up, but then I throw Harper in there, and then everything just goes out the window because he's going to be healthy. It just feels like he has his way of just crashing the party and completely upending things.
- [53:20]
Rob Mahoney
Well, Dylan Harper has proven to be the kind of guy who, yes, can attack one on one. We've talked about his driving game probably ad nauseam on this podcast, but he's also come up with like monster offensive rebounds, a lot of random little plays where if you don't account for him are like back breaking plays.
- [53:35]
Ben Cruz
Those were gigantic plays in that game where he snuck from the corner. Those need to be shouted out. I'm glad you did completely.
- [53:42]
Rob Mahoney
And also as we're talking about the defensive matchups for the Spurs, I mean Dylan Harper, we shouted it out too, also did a great job one on one against Shea in a lot of situations, just like a counterintuitive, like really disciplined, staying down, understanding the fakes are coming, not getting baited or pulled into anything. And Jalen Brunson is a very similar offensive proposition. Much lower center of gravity, very different body type, slightly different game and approach than Shay, but another guy where it's like you have to be zeroed in on the scouting report in order to have any credibility holding down that matchup. And Harper, crazy as it sounds for a 20 year old, I think can come off the bench and do that for, for a good portion of this game.
- [54:21]
Ben Cruz
I think I would. I wanted to attack one thing with the, with the figuring out. We've talked so much about how their role players are playing better, the percentages are better. That is the result of a source thing that I think is going to be different in this series because the entry points for the Knicks, I think are going to be stressed in a way that they have not been stressed in previous. Like the Cavs didn't have the ball. The Knicks have not faced the ball pressure or the rim protection that the spurs are going to throw at them. And I think that they have, they have ball pressure options here that are going to, they're going to be able to play very aggressively at the entry point of cat, whether or not that's Vassell, whoever it is. And they're going to be able to be very aggressive and put OG and Bridges and whoever it is in the position to be more decision makers. I think that could be a big difference. That that is one of the key things that I'm watching in this, in this series is their ability to like really go balls to the wall on those two fronts.
- [55:18]
Justin Varior
Yeah. And that's why I think the shooting is so critical. I mean you could say that about every series on the board, but this one in particular, just considering how well the Knicks are shooting, but also like, how much that will force the spurs to be a little bit more outside of their comfort zone and play Wemby. Like in situations where you can't just like deter literally everything in the paint.
- [55:37]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [55:38]
Justin Varior
I do wonder if this is like a call for Shamet because he's just been shooting the out of the ball. I think he missed 13 in the entire Eastern Conference finals, which is saying something. And. But now that would give them a five out strategy, which could be like advantageous offensively. On the flip side of that, like, it also, if you're playing him alongside Brunson, that's like two targets out there. Then all of a sudden, like, you see the spurs gu being able to like go to work against two different targets as opposed to just Brunson. And so it's a tough juggling act. And so there's a lot to work with. But I could also see it just flipping very quickly if. If the spurs are able to work that advantage.
- [56:14]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. Because when you think about what the Knicks alternatives are, it is like, okay, we're going to put Shaman out there. Are we going to put Deuce McBride out there? Every alternative that the Knicks have with Mitchell Robinson, we're assuming sidelined, at least for the start of the series, maybe he ends up playing in it and playing a role. Well, he says he's gonna play just from game one. He's gonna go out there with a broken hand, but which is for a
- [56:34]
Ben Cruz
guy who mostly just dunks like that.
- [56:36]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [56:37]
Justin Varior
And it's also like, because it's been reported as like a broken pinky, but like, I think the New York Post had something that it's also the metacarpal of. Yeah, of the hand. So it's. It's a broken hand. It's not just a pinky.
- [56:49]
Ben Cruz
Which hand tough.
- [56:51]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, with. With Mitch. Does it matter?
- [56:53]
Ben Cruz
Not, not that he's a shooter, it's going to affect his live dribble passing. How's that going?
- [56:58]
Rob Mahoney
But I think Emil probably does like affect his relentlessness on the glass. Like his ability to hold and control the ball. Like all that stuff is really important. And all the other options the Knicks have are to go small in some way or another.
- [57:09]
Justin Varior
Did his right hand for the record.
- [57:11]
Rob Mahoney
Okay, Good to know it's in the right. I mean, here's. Here's the thing. When you start, if, if the spurs, by putting Victor Wembanyama on Josh Hart, can kind of nudge the Knicks to these sort of five out lineups with more Spacing on the floor. You're trading off hearts rebounding, which I think is really important in a series like this. You're trading off some of the chaos in, like, the full court, random transition, sorts of possessions that Hart has a way of, like, infusing himself into. And you're giving up some defensive size, too. Like, I actually think Landry Shammit is targetable, but, like, pretty competitive on the ball. Like, he will actually fight and, like, do his due diligence in a matchup. Brunson is Targetable, though. Deuce McBride, even though he's an absolute dog. Like, you can shoot over the top of him if you have enough size working in your advantage. And so I. I do worry about all those, like, downstream effects for the Knicks if Josh Hart becomes a problem, because Victor Wembanyama feels like he's everywhere, and I kind of suspect that he will. You just have to go smaller so quickly. And we haven't even talked about, like, what happens if Cat or og, God forbid, get in foul trouble in this series. And what do you even do trying to guard Wimby the other way.
- [58:17]
Justin Varior
Yeah. When Cat gets in fall trouble. And that's another thing where it's just, like, not only is Cat probably prone to do that, even the midst of, like, this renaissance that he's having, but, like, how much that's going to spark the transition on the other side of it. And, like, if you get, like, the. The fury road going for the spurs, like, all of a sudden like, that, that means so much more, it feels like, in this series than some of the past that they've had. Just because the spurs are just absolute terrors in that regard.
- [58:42]
Rob Mahoney
Who do you think is their doof warrior? Like, who's the guy shred the guitar?
- [58:46]
Ben Cruz
You weren't gonna just throw that out there. That was gonna get.
- [58:49]
Justin Varior
Is it. Is it Plumley?
- [58:51]
Ben Cruz
Oh, it might be.
- [58:53]
Rob Mahoney
Or Bismack? Honestly.
- [58:54]
Justin Varior
Yeah.
- [58:55]
Rob Mahoney
One of those two guys, for sure.
- [58:56]
Ben Cruz
Yeah. I don't know. I'll have to ponder that one.
- [58:58]
Justin Varior
Yeah. So on the flip side of thing here, so they. In. In previous matchups, Cat has guarded Wemby, and then you could effectively, I guess, hide Brunson on champagne. And then you're basically just sticking the. The.
- [59:12]
Ben Cruz
The.
- [59:13]
Justin Varior
The perimeter guys on. On the three guards here. Do you expect anything, like, beyond that? And, like, I guess, how. How do we feel about that in terms of the next side of things?
- [59:21]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, I think they'll probably have to use Brunson as a bit of a whack. A mole like scramming him out of some of that matchups. If they try to target him by like bringing champagne up to set ball screens, you can kind of like hide him on Vsell sometimes. If Brunson is willing to fight through some of the off ball stuff. That's an if. But I think that's what it has to be is a little even a less like, what is the 1 spot on the floor and how do we keep Brunson moving within our defense to make it more difficult to be targeted?
- [59:50]
Ben Cruz
This has been brought up a few times too. Is that. I. I don't know. Like, if, if Wimby has cat on him. I see that being a potential foul issue, like you were alluding to. Like, he's Wimby, I think could get past him. I don't know that he's as physical a defender even as Hartenstein. I don't know how you all feel about that, but I could see him causing him problems. And there is a little bit of a history of OG doing a decent job of getting up under Wimby and causing him problems. I, I almost, almost expect that to be the matchup.
- [60:21]
Justin Varior
Well, yeah, I think OG if you're going to carve someone out of stone, basically be like, let's just figure out a Wemy defender. I think look sort of like that.
- [60:30]
Ben Cruz
He literally is carved out of stone. Am I right? I mean, you've seen that guy.
- [60:34]
Justin Varior
What a guy. But I think that leads to the question of where you stick Cat at that point. Like, yeah, you would probably want to hide him on Champion Penny, but Brunson's already over there under the covers just like, trying to get by. I also think Mitchell Robinson has had some success with Wemby in the past. And I also think, like, Mitchell Robinson matters a lot in this year, not only because, like, they require so many of the extra, extra possessions to do what they do. Like, they're just so physical on the boards. But also like to stress the potential minutes for Wemby because all of a sudden, like, I imagine you would want to match Robinson's minutes with Cornette in an ideal world. But if Robinson is having success and Cornette isn't up to the task, like, do you have to rush Wemby back? And all of a sudden, like, that starts to spin in other ways. And so, like, I feel like this broken hand, which seems like it occurred under suspicious circumstances, it didn't happen during basketball. The Knicks are saying. And so, like, maybe he was just so mad.
- [61:31]
Rob Mahoney
Maybe he was spackling why, why are you throwing him to the wolves like that?
- [61:35]
Ben Cruz
I can relate. This is one of the most dad injuries of all time. I was reaching for my son's lunchbox and a stack of Pyrexes slid off on my left hand.
- [61:45]
Rob Mahoney
Oh my God.
- [61:46]
Ben Cruz
The stupidest injury. I mean like. And I would like screaming it was broken for like a year. Those slickers don't he. I don't know if you'll have had one of those. It was so painful. I had to sleep with it flat on my bed at night. Like it was like it would hurt and I'd still play basketball. And if somebody hits that while you're playing basketball, it's. It is. It is rough. I can't. And I'm not a dunker. I'm not a dunker. As you guys know what the finals
- [62:09]
Justin Varior
were dictated by some rogue Tupperware and that's just what knocked Mitchell Robinson out.
- [62:13]
Rob Mahoney
The injury you described sounds horrific. I'm sorry you broke your hand in that way. I hope that's not how Mitchell Robinson and broke his hand. I also think too, like if he is not Mitchell Robinson. We've seen the Knicks be like a really good like all around rebounding team in these playoffs. The spurs are not a team that usually goes after the offensive glass in a super aggressive way like tactically. But they absolutely could like if Mitchell Robinson isn't Mitchell Robinson, Cat and or OG get into foul trouble. The Knicks are playing small. There's going to be a lot of opportunity for second chances for San Antonio if they want to pursue that. And you know, there's the transition trade offs. But I think it could be worth it for them.
- [62:49]
Ben Cruz
Those were some of the biggest plays of the game. Yeah, the one, the, even the missed shot in game seven that I think Champagne one dribbled that pull up too and Castle was just wide open and caught it and rebounded and put it in and then Harper and things like that. I was curious too though, like the second unit part of it. You were talking about Cornette in this series. That was such a huge assumed advantage that OKC had. I don't know that it's as much of an advantage in this one because I feel like their second units are way, way more even, evenly matched.
- [63:18]
Justin Varior
Well, speak on that. Like what specifically do you see in that?
- [63:21]
Ben Cruz
Harper. I mean Harper. I think Harper's got way more space to play in that second unit if they, if they just run them out one to one like that. That's. That's the biggest thing, honestly. And I don't think Cornetz is overmatched, honestly in the second unit as he was against okc.
- [63:37]
Rob Mahoney
And especially if that rebounding ends up being a factor in the series. Like Cornette can be a really great offensive rebound pounder. So there's just like a lot of like there's the big advantages that the spurs have and then there's a lot of ways they can clean up around the edges that have me a little bit worried about the Knicks, especially because everything we just said about New York and how agile they are tactically, all that stuff is harder to pull off if Wimy is on the floor. Right. Like the idea of like, oh, we're going to hit these cutters, no cutter really looks like they're open when Wimy is playing the field. And like, oh, we want to tap into like, part of the reason Mikhail's been so good over the course of these playoffs is because he's become a driver again. And it's not all jump shooting. That's a different proposition if Wemby is waiting for you in the pain. And the same is true of og. So it's like all of the layers that the Knicks have introduced that have Brunson playing great basketball, but also have empowered all these other guys, they are sort of challenged structurally by just having Victor Wembanyama out there, not guarding Josh Hart, especially if that's the case.
- [64:33]
Justin Varior
Yeah, it is funny because the Knicks like spent so long digging in the crates in order to find like a credible bench and it does feel like all of a sudden like they're up against just an abnormal bench where it's just like these guys should be starting in different situations. And so like the Alvarado types, the Clarkson types, all of a sudden they just feel over mature unless they can just catch wind. Like the special MSG moment, all of a sudden Alvarado has a five minute stretch where he's just causing terror. I could see that. But other than that, just like on paper feels like a pretty big disadvantage. And also like, let's see, Carter Bryant, like he seems built for this because at least physically like matches up fairly well. We'll see like what state of emotional distress he's in based on some of the mistakes he's making on the court. But like, I don't know, it just feels like the spurs are almost like backloaded with the type of guys who can erase a lot of those advantages.
- [65:24]
Rob Mahoney
We say that, but it's like the Knicks have found ways to, to get like great things out of Jordan Clarkson in these playoffs like, legitimately playing nine deep. And every one of those nine guys has had a huge, like, hero moment in some series, in some game or another. So I. I don't take. I don't take for granted anything that New York's bench does anymore. But Dylan Harper is a tough standard for any bench to measure up to. Keldon Johnson, I thought, just instrumental for the spurs over 6 and 7 of the Western Conference finals in particular. Like, they're gonna have to provide a lot. Like, Deuce McBride is going to have to shoot better. Landry Sham is going to have to still be a conquering hero somehow. Like, these guys are going to have to continue to deliver in ways that may not even be fair to expect. But it's like, that's what a title requires.
- [66:06]
Ben Cruz
Yeah, I mean, that variance just comes down to the whether those guys. We're assuming Dylan shows up like he did. He. He's a rookie. There are ups and downs. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe ebbs and flows a little bit in a way that hurts him. You're talking about Kelton, man. Some of those threes he put up. I was like, oh, Keld, and what are we? And, like, they went in. I was like, oh, my God. Yeah. I was like, my heart would have been racing if I were a Spurs fan. But that's. Them's the brakes. Those are the margins.
- [66:30]
Justin Varior
Right. This is kind of just what I've been saying in my mind about this entire series, where it's like, well, what about this for the Spurs? And what about that? What about that? But then it's just like, the Knicks might just be charmed in this, because every time you think, like, whatever advantages they've had would just run out, like, the fact that they're shooting would just all of a sudden, like, law of averages, flip back the other way. It just hasn't at this point. And, like, maybe it just doesn't. But we'll see. It kind of gets us into our next question, which is, like, the magic of the Finals. Basically, we have two teams that, based on their winning, would be a pretty huge mark in history. Wemby would win his first title at 22 years old, or the Knicks would win their first since the early 70s. Which one, like, kind of gets you in your field the more? Like, what's the. What's the warm and fuzzy outcome that you're looking forward to here?
- [67:20]
Rob Mahoney
I think for me, it's the Knicks, and it's. The history is part of it. It's bigger than that, though. It's not Just like, oh, it's been so long. Like, there are longer suffering fan bases by, like, win loss, by playoff droughts. Like, the Knicks have had some good teams here and there. They've never been quite on this level in a long time. But like, it wasn't that long ago that like, Mitchell Robinson was playing with Emmanuel Moodya and Alonzo Trier and like Ennis Cantor slash freedom, like, the recent history of the Knicks has not been all that great. And I would say this fan base has dealt with, like, about as much like, insane as maybe any other fan base in the league. Sixers possibly accepted that's a particularly strange and cursed situation. And so the idea of Knicks fans getting to celebrate a team purely on the merits, purely on getting here, purely on the vibes, based on like, the narrative arc of pulling their season together in the way that they did, I just think has been such a rich and satisfying part of this. And so getting to see New York celebrate a championship Knicks team would be amazing. And getting them to see it, like, to celebrate a team like that, that, like many great champions, had its moment in the regular season where it's like, are these guys just going to completely fall apart? And they definitively did not and pulled it all together and somehow became better and more to get like, more cohesive than we ever would have expected. Like, that's what I want out of sports. And so if the Knicks were to win, I think the process of getting there would be pretty rich.
- [68:54]
Ben Cruz
I mean, I think you can't lose. This is a win win for us because there's a lot of cool stuff going on. But I think there's obviously the biggest part of, you know, the Knicks, Knicks fans, the history, all that stuff that in a place that loves basketball to an abnormal extent on all fronts. But like, within that, like Polly Pocket of. Of a narrative, there's a lot of little pieces within it. I only thought because I. The only reason I thought of Polly Pocket is my son has a spongebob Polly Pocket. And it's been on top of mine lately. He loves it.
- [69:22]
Justin Varior
What was.
- [69:23]
Rob Mahoney
What was the name of the like when we were growing up, for lack of a better description? Yeah, the boy version. It's like it was like Monster Mike or something. It was like, yeah, maybe it was a Mad Max. It could be.
- [69:35]
Ben Cruz
I was going to see that.
- [69:37]
Rob Mahoney
Who's.
- [69:38]
Ben Cruz
Are there enough Gen X guys going to see that Masters of the Universe he man movie, by the way, if you'll see it looks like the worst thing I've ever seen in My life. I can't. Sorry. I don't know if you'll.
- [69:49]
Rob Mahoney
I gotta go see it for content tonight.
- [69:50]
Justin Varior
Oh no.
- [69:52]
Rob Mahoney
Not looking forward to it.
- [69:53]
Ben Cruz
When Skeletor started to talk, I was like, oh, Jesus Christ.
- [69:59]
Justin Varior
I googled boy version of Polly Pocket and it was Mighty Max.
- [70:03]
Ben Cruz
Mighty Max, we love.
- [70:06]
Rob Mahoney
Ripped some real Skeletor vibes from Mighty Max for sure.
- [70:09]
Ben Cruz
That's right. Sure. Castle Grayskull, all that stuff. But within, you know, there are a lot of little nice narratives within that big Polly Pocket. Just better branding. Polly Pocket. True.
- [70:19]
Rob Mahoney
Better product works.
- [70:20]
Ben Cruz
Yeah, better product. But you know, there's the, the Villanova tie. There's the chemistry rolling forward from college. These guys are playing together. There's the. We figured our out st with Cat. There's redemption for Cat. There's a lot of stuff going on there. There's. Tibbs is pissed. What's going on with Tibs? Did P. How many pencils is Tibbs gonna snap angrily watching this? This because people snap pencils angrily watching basketball games. But then on the other side, I think we can't lose just because granted we ex. We expect Wimy to be here. I mean, I think we all are just. We. We think he's on this track and it's like it's early, but he'll probably be, you know, either outcome I'll be happy with. But I have to tilt towards the Knicks because. Because, because of their history and all those things that I said. Yeah.
- [71:05]
Justin Varior
I saw someone jokingly say that if Wemby loses this Finals, that all of a sudden he can't be better than Michael Jordan. Which really I think put things into perspective about like how early the arrival has been here and how much in the long run, like it matters. And which is to say that like he will have perhaps a decade plus career of these sorts of opportunities. And so this is just the precipice of that. Having said that though, I think in the long run, when we look back 15 years from now, it probably will matter more because of stupid things like that. Because if you don't win every single one, if we're having bar room discussions about who's the best player and all this other stuff like that that will get brought up that when we lost a title and like Jordan did not lost the finals. And so I think for the long run, I think the Wemby one matters more. I think in the short term, the Knicks one is just. It's front and center. That has to be one of the. The longest suffering NBA fan bases that We've seen. It's funny because, like, you know, whenever a team makes a title, those just be those boilerplate headlines you see in things. I think I saw it on espn. It's like, the spurs make their first NBA final since 2014. I was like, that wasn't that long ago. Like, for me, like, I think that was yesterday. And so, like, there really hasn't been a ton leading into this is the start of something. The Knicks are just hoping desperately to reclaim something that they've been pining for. For. What is this now? This is five decades. It's 53 years. I think it is. It's wild.
- [72:34]
Rob Mahoney
It's. It's been a long run, man. And, yeah, I. I hear everything we're saying about the spurs, too, and the idea that they would just, like, we. We assume they will be back here. We assume this is not the last we'll see of them. But as far as, like, how these teams got here, the Knicks were so, like, unsparing in their deconstruction of all these last couple rounds that, like, there wasn't a lot of drama to it. And I think, by contrast, the sort of game seven days that you described, Kyle, like, coming off of it, like, I was just sitting there on my couch being like, what did we just watch? Like, how did that happen? How did the team that we kind of all expect in the Thunder to have the answers, to be marching down an opponent, to be, like, responding with all the big shots, they look like they were just, like, out of gas, out of. Out of responses, out of players who could hit the shots that they needed them to hit. And I was. I was just, like, left there reckoning with what the spurs are right now, which is not something that I think we expected to be doing this season. And certainly we've. We've done enough guessing as to, like, what the next couple years of this franchise could look like. But the ahead of schedule part is inarguable at this point. Like, these guys are too young in theory to be doing this, and yet they're debunking all of that in style with, like, a flair that's so impressive to watch, with a calmness to them that is. I really don't know how to describe or explain. They do feel like a team that even now, I'm, like, trying to wrap my head around how this is possible, even more so than the Knicks.
- [74:00]
Ben Cruz
I'm gonna throw out what I said before, because with. No. Yeah, everything I've said, scrap it. Let's start. No, I want to retake. No, it's. With Wimby. I think it's. Honestly, you can't operate with any kind of Past, any kind of precedent with how you're thinking about how this matters, because the league is changing the way. How easy it is to keep these teams together. And it gets late. We've learned repeatedly not to take title windows for granted. And Wimy's an interesting case where you hope he stays healthy. I want him to. It's. But this is all it feels. I hold my breath every time it goes down. You know, there's that side of it. But, you know, I think we should learn to, like, not assume. And maybe this is me teaching myself in real time that. That, you know, he might. Maybe this. We. We always assume that he's going to get back, but these. It's gotten difficult. More difficult on the cap side to do it and. Well, I don't know, man. It's.
- [75:00]
Rob Mahoney
We're 15 months removed from him being shut down with a blood clot that might have altered the shape of his career. And now he is the most dominant player in the Western Conference en route to the NBA Finals.
- [75:11]
Ben Cruz
We knew that was possible, but it's still shocking. Yeah.
- [75:14]
Justin Varior
And like, how many times in the past five years, whenever a new winner, like, emerged, was it, like, this team could win two of the next three or three of the next four? I think the Thunder, it's like, it was. It was warranted. But, like, there is this, I think, rush to proclaim a new era of dominance, and all of a sudden, like, that's not how the NBA works anymore. And perhaps it's like, we need to get used to it. But this, I will say this is the stress test of that theory. What we were talking about before of, like, parody eight in a row. Different. Like, maybe this is just how it is. Like, we could also be on the precipice of pre and post Wy dominance. Like, could be he could just erase the next five years of history. But you're right. Like, I just don't know how many. How much these new things are affecting, like, how we've come to learn the emergence of, like, the. The next great talent.
- [76:01]
Rob Mahoney
But what are we supposed to proclaim? Like, we love to proclaim on this show, and we can't even proclaim something. The ends of eras, the beginning of eras. Like, we'll find something else. I. I feel confident in that.
- [76:11]
Justin Varior
How much you proclaim a winner of this series? Series. Because. Last question on the document number five. Nice prediction time. And you should Know that whatever you say here will be held against you and will ripple through time in the same way, like Wemby's legacy.
- [76:28]
Rob Mahoney
Thank you. No pressure. I think it's version six. I feel like that answer is probably a cop out. It's like the classic, like we're giving respect to the other team, but I want to qualify with this. I think the Knicks can absolutely win this series. Like, I think that the pieces are there. We talked through a lot of them in terms of the unique challenges that they pose for the Spurs. I just see like a couple more avenues for San Antonio to make New York uncomfortable and to destabilize what's gotten the Knicks to this point, that I lean slightly in that direction, but I think things could swing pretty erratically. I just, I have a hard time talking myself into watching the spurs team that we just saw come up with all of these defensive responses to the Thunder and an energy advantage, the momentum advantage against an opponent of that caliber, not find a version of that to do for the Knicks, even though it'll require something quite different.
- [77:22]
Ben Cruz
I, I, I went into this thing as we talked through the series and kind of the matchups and the problems that could come up. I had come into this with this, like, creeping suspicion that the Knicks could get it done. And I do think they could get it done, but I, I think I would just tilt ever so slightly towards San Antonio because of that. Granted, they have a lot of, they have a lot of variables that, like certain young players playing well, certain matchups going well. It is a different series. You know, it's different for the Knicks facing the, the spurs, but it's also, the Knicks are going to pose them some different problems too, with their competence at that like 2, 3, 4 spot, with their size and their shooting. I tilt towards the spurs in seven. I had previously tilted towards the Knicks in seven. So I'm just ever so slightly tilted towards the Spurs. But I agree, like, I, I really don't want to like, downplay how good the Knicks are. Like, I do think they could win it. So that that's kind of where I am. I, I have a lot of respect for both teams and almost a toss up tilting towards the Spurs.
- [78:18]
Justin Varior
Is it wrong to say that the Knicks stress the Spurs's disadvantages in ways that even the Thunder did not like? The matchup overall is actually worse for the spurs than it was with the Thunder, especially with JW out.
- [78:32]
Rob Mahoney
I think that is true. And to play it the other way too, I think if the Thunder had survived the Western Conference finals. I think I'd be picking the Knicks right now. Like I think both the spurs and the Knicks are unique challenges for each other which is what's going to make this series so fun to watch and see these guys try to navigate it. But yeah, New York tack like they just do. They have developed all of this muscle memory for how to tap into these different elements of their offense that a Thunder team certainly without J.B. dub and A.J. mitchell, like they just don't have the flexibility to do that.
- [79:02]
Ben Cruz
And also home court. Right. That's a big. That's a thing here too true.
- [79:08]
Justin Varior
I. I could see in my mind's eye that the Knicks are winning like you guys. Like I could see it all playing out. I could see Timothy Chalamet wearing some like oversized shirt just like high fiving a random guy on the floor at the spurs arena because all of a sudden the Knicks are bigger and better and just came in there in one at least the game. But I just, I get back to the fact that like it really does have to be Towns I think playing at the level that he'd been at before and I just can't see him conquering what I've known about him for so long in order to. To defeat like a team like the spurs and with Wemby is just the ultimate sort of just component here variable dare I say. And so I went spurs and six. I really wish I had the fortitude to go nicks and six because that was initial like what I wrote down but then I went through it all and I couldn't stick to it. But spurs and six. We're all Spurs.
- [80:01]
Ben Cruz
You heard this Knicks fans. I had more respect for you. I said spurs and seven. These two said six more I respect
- [80:08]
Justin Varior
who has but this, this is the
- [80:11]
Rob Mahoney
problem with the sort of like I'm gonna take the screen grab of like all the picks of the people just like Spur spurs first because I do suspect there will be a spot strong spurs consensus in the prediction for all this. You just can't like Rotten Tomatoes this like it's really not as simple as like 87% of nobody's going to talking heads. They're not.
- [80:30]
Ben Cruz
You can, you can just explain it all you want. Nobody's going to have that in the clip. It's not going to make the clip, man. I'm sorry.
- [80:35]
Justin Varior
What are you doing? Trying to add context.
- [80:37]
Ben Cruz
Continue hedging if you'd like but look
- [80:40]
Rob Mahoney
I'm going to keep proclaiming all day including if it's adding context.
- [80:44]
Justin Varior
Well Kyle has the extra game cushion. So it's true. He's got the seven.
- [80:48]
Rob Mahoney
He's been high. He's high roaded us for sure.
- [80:50]
Ben Cruz
Yeah, I had one, I had one thing about Wimby here, because when he's. The central thing of this is that people keep saying that he's generational. I don't, I don't. This is gonna sound.
- [80:59]
Rob Mahoney
What generation? How is that true?
- [81:02]
Ben Cruz
I don't think he's generational. I think he's multi generational.
- [81:05]
Justin Varior
He's bicentennial.
- [81:06]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [81:09]
Ben Cruz
Because he's never, he's unlike anything we've ever seen. Like, people have made up that, that, that clip of him contesting that Jared McCain. I rewound that in slow motion over and over again. Him contesting that corner. Three in transition. I don't. That was one of the most incredible plays I've ever seen in my life. I've never seen anyone do anything like that. I just don't. So that was what, maybe that's an absurd thing to say, but I don't, I don't even think he's generational. Like, I don't, I don't know where to put the cap on it.
- [81:36]
Rob Mahoney
And we're about to see him make 30 plays a game like that on the biggest stage in the sport with that sweet, sweet trophy on the floor in the background. Like, I'm already looking forward to the iconography of this series. Right. Like the, the, what are, what are the moments, as we talked about coming out of Game 7 that we're going to remember forever? I have no idea what Wimby will be capable of in that regard, but I put nothing past him.
- [81:58]
Justin Varior
Yeah. Good luck. Jalen Brunson. Well, we will be coming to you next time after game one. We'll be recording Wednesday night, so look for that in your feeds late Wednesday, early Thursday morning. But from there we'll wrap things up. Thank you to Ben Cruz, thank you to Jeff for filling in on production. We'll talk to you next time. 21 and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7, Support in Massachuset, 1-87-78-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York, Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.