NBA Finals Verrierables! Plus, Who Should Replace Thibs in New York? | Group Chat

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ringer NBA Show – NBA Finals Verrierables! Plus, Who Should Replace Thibs in New York? | Group Chat

Release Date: June 4, 2025

In this special NBA Finals preview edition of Group Chat, hosts Justin Barrier, Wosny Lambre (Big Woz), and Rob Mahoney engage in an in-depth discussion about the upcoming NBA Finals between the Indiana Pacers and the Oklahoma City Thunder. The episode delves into coaching changes, potential replacements for the Knicks' Tom Thibodeau, strategic analyses of the Finals matchups, intriguing "what-if" scenarios, and reflections on player legacies.

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1. Introduction and Context

The podcast kicks off with Justin Barrier welcoming listeners to a special NBA Finals preview episode of Group Chat. Recognizing the unique timing of the podcast release—breaking the nightly cadence before the playoff action—Justin sets the stage for a comprehensive analysis of the Finals.

Justin Barrier [01:15]:
"That's a special day not only because we are on the precipice of a new NBA Finals. We're also going to preview them Variable style, which is always an event on the calendar."

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2. Tom Thibodeau's Departure from the Knicks

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the Knicks' decision to part ways with head coach Tom Thibodeau. Justin announces Thibodeau's departure, prompting a conversation about the implications for the team and the broader trend of coaching turnovers in the NBA.

Justin Barrier [04:18]:
"Officially Tom Thibodeau is now out as coach as of Tuesday afternoon as we're recording this, not a total surprise, I think just because this has kind of been whispered."

Rob Mahoney [04:43]:
"I think there are valid basketball reasons to fire Tom Thibodeau. I just don't know that I would have been so eager to do it given the alternatives that are out there on the coaching market right now."

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3. Potential Candidates to Replace Thibodeau

The trio explores various candidates who could step into the head coaching role for the Knicks. They debate the merits of seasoned coaches like Jeff Van Gundy and Mike Malone, as well as the challenges of acquiring top-tier coaching talent without compromising draft positions or financial flexibility.

Big Woz [09:36]:
"I do not imagine, and this is me putting myself in Jeff Van Gundy's head a lot. Jeff Van Gundy, someone who has spoken an incredible amount over the years about his relationship with Tom Thibodeau... I do not think that Jeff Van Gundy would succeed Tom Thibodeau at a job, just like, on principle."

Rob Mahoney [12:55]:
"If he (Mike Malone) did take that job, would he have to go back to Mike Malone? Because Michael is way too proper."

Big Woz [13:46]:
"What are you trying to address? Is it the tactics? Is it the voice in the locker room?... expecting someone with no head coaching experience... is a little bit naive about what Tibbs brings to the table."

The discussion highlights the complexities of finding a successor who can both respect the existing team culture and implement necessary strategic changes.

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4. The "Variables" Segment: NBA Finals Outlook

Transitioning to the core segment of the episode, the hosts introduce the "Variables" segment, where they analyze key factors that could influence the outcome of the NBA Finals between the Pacers and the Thunder.

Justin Barrier [19:21]:
"This is a special one because unfortunately, the last time we did this, we were flagged by Spotify... This has a little extra to it as a result."

They dissect various matchups, defensive strategies, and offensive capabilities of both teams, providing a nuanced preview of what fans can expect in the Finals.

Rob Mahoney [22:20]:
"Can any defense at this point, even the Thunder's vaunted defense, slow down what the Pacers have been able to do?... I think in the half court they will be slowed down."

Big Woz [23:06]:
"Can they just skip over all of that hard battling against the Thunder defense by throwing the ball over the top with the Pascal Siakam leak outs..."

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5. What-If Scenarios: Alternate Timelines

The conversation takes an intriguing turn as the hosts explore alternate timelines and "what-if" scenarios that could have significantly altered the current Finals matchup.

Justin Barrier [54:21]:
"What if the Suns don't match the offer sheet on Deandre Ayton? That the Pacers put in front of him... What if Paul George isn't as enamored with Russell Westbrook's party aesthetics..."

Big Woz [58:13]:
"Getting Shay, I think is as important as that. Despite the fact that Shay clearly has a long way to go before he has all of the accolades that Kevin Durant does."

These hypotheticals not only entertain but also underscore the delicate nature of team compositions and how minor changes can lead to vastly different outcomes.

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6. Legacies and Future Stars

A notable segment of the podcast is dedicated to discussing the legacies of key figures and the emergence of future stars. The hosts particularly focus on Rick Carlisle and Shay Gilgeous-Alexander, contemplating their potential impact on the league and their respective teams.

Big Woz [63:33]:
"Rick Carlisle... one of the most adaptive coaches we've ever seen. If he somehow pulls this off, too."

Justin Barrier [67:25]:
"Shay being a high scoring wing on a highly competitive team... tracking like three and four years... Shay has to be the guy in the NBA."

The discussion emphasizes the importance of adaptability in coaching and the role of emerging players in shaping the future of basketball.

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7. Predictions for the NBA Finals

Wrapping up the episode, the hosts share their predictions for the Finals outcome. Both Rob Mahoney and Big Woz express confidence in the Thunder's ability to secure the championship, citing their strong defensive strategies and the formidable performance of players like Shai Gilgeous-Alexander.

Rob Mahoney [76:12]:
"I really do think they're going to play better than people expect them to... but ultimately lose."

Big Woz [77:23]:
"I think the Thunder will win in five. I think it'll be five pretty competitive games."

Justin Barrier aligns with their perspectives, showing respect for the Pacers while firmly backing the Thunder's chances.

Justin Barrier [79:00]:
"We love to respect the Pacers. If OKC does indeed win, they would become the fifth team in NBA history..."

The hosts conclude by highlighting the historical significance of the Thunder's potential victory and its place alongside legendary teams.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Justin Barrier [04:18]:
  "Sorry, but why can't Jeff Van Gundy step right up?"

• Rob Mahoney [09:00]:
  "It's like the best defensive team in the NBA... and no one is going to crack it."

• Big Woz [63:33]:
  "Rick Carlisle is a made guy... If he somehow pulls this off, he's going into the upper echelon of coaches."

• Justin Barrier [67:25]:
  "Shay has to be the guy in the NBA. And I think it probably starts now with his first opportunity."

• Big Woz [77:23]:
  "I agree with a lot of that. I think the Thunder will win in five."

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Conclusion

This episode of Group Chat offers a deep dive into the intricacies of the upcoming NBA Finals, blending strategic analysis with engaging banter. From dissecting coaching changes and potential successors to exploring pivotal matchups and future stars, Justin Barrier, Big Woz, and Rob Mahoney provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of what to expect in the Finals. Their informed predictions and thoughtful "what-if" discussions make this episode a must-listen for NBA enthusiasts seeking expert insights and entertaining perspectives.

Transcript

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[Justin Barrier]

Hello and welcome to Group Chat. Hi, I am Justin Barrier. And joining me for this special NBA Finals preview edition, Rob Mahoney. Big Woz coming to you live on a Wednesday. Breaking the nightly cadence before we get into the playoff action. Was you getting time and a half for doing this pod?

[Rob Mahoney]

You could say that in that. Listen, man, listen. We. We're salaried employees. Enjoy a great healthcare plan. You know what I mean? 401k getting fully matched, you know, stock portfolio looking decent these days. I'm not afraid to do an extra pot or two, man. It's all good.

[Big Woz]

Count your blessings. Woz is one of my favorite wozes, I gotta say. Just really taking stock of what matters in his life.

[Rob Mahoney]

Come on, man. Every. Everything is going great. I'm happy to be up here with my brothers. That's all.

[Justin Barrier]

That's right. And it's a special day not only because are we on the precipice of a new NBA finals. We're also going to preview them Variable style, which is always an event on the calendar. How many times a year? Couldn't tell you. Kind of just happens as much as it needs to. But the finals I think we've been doing every single year. But before we get into the exciting action, I have a bit of sobering news here. I think you guys have been tracking breathlessly my gardening exploits. Yes, and I am loathe to admit that we lost a family member. Two family members over the weekend.

[Big Woz]

Not the Corns.

[Justin Barrier]

Our Korn brothers have been ripped from their roots. Was it a crow? Was it a squirrel? Was it Rob just coming in to smite me?

[Big Woz]

I would never.

[Justin Barrier]

The corn.

[Big Woz]

Mr. And Mrs. Corn are among my closest friends. I would never do anything to hurt them.

[Justin Barrier]

The children of the corn. The New York Stock Exchange. Yeah, they both were. Were ravaged sometime over the weekend and unfortunately we have to start fresh. So if I'm a little bit morose on this pod, a little down, that's why.

[Big Woz]

Well, we're here for you, Justin. I mean how do you, how do you plan to rally from this? Is this a one game at a time situation? Are you, are you looking to move on and replant?

[Rob Mahoney]

What.

[Big Woz]

What are your plans for the future?

[Justin Barrier]

Well, luckily they kind of just grow back, so I don't really have to do anything. I already starting to see some new growth. It's real like hope springs eternal kind of message to us all. Although I do have to wonder wa. Do you think this is a bad omen for the Indiana Pacers, home of the actual Corn Bros?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I mean not the best of omens, especially how indie friendly our pod has been, but probably a worse omen is that they're playing the best defensive team in the NBA by far. And they going, they going to be in their shirts.

[Justin Barrier]

That's right. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass. And off the court you still need teammates who are there when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in. With agents and online tools to help you find the coverage you need. You could focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state.

[Rob Mahoney]

Foreign.

[Justin Barrier]

Though we have to talk briefly once again about Tom Thibodeau because we talked about it after that loss to the Pacers in the East Finals. But officially Tom Thibodeau is now out as coach as of Tuesday afternoon as we're recording this, not a total surprise, I think just because this has kind of been whispered. Rob, what do you think Would you have done this? I think is probably a better question.

[Big Woz]

I probably would not, but I'm a little more cautious I would say. Overall, I think I, I personally am just like adjusting to the, the post results era of NBA coaching in which getting to the conference finals does not save your job. Winning an NBA title does not save your job. Having a long contract doesn't save your job. Like these owners are, are proving willing to ax these guys based on the feel of the locker room. They're. I, I think the, the like the vibes as far as the direction of the team go and that can be a more nebulous thing. It can also be a More truthful thing, I. I think there are valid basketball reasons to fire Tom Thibodeau. I just don't know that I would have been so eager to do it given the alternatives that are out there on the coaching market right now.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I think this would have felt like a surprise four or five months ago, but after what Denver and Memphis did to their coaches and when they did it, I don't think we can be surprised by a coaching fire anymore. And that's before we get to what Rob mentioned, there being actual basketball reasons, in my opinion. I thought the Knicks needed to revamp their offense, like really reimagine their approach on that end of the court if they wanted to be, you know, ultimately a team that could go to the NBA Finals next year. And it seemed unlikely that Tom Thibodeau by himself was going to be the catalyst to that. Like, as much success as Tibbs has enjoyed, like the first two years in Chicago, you know, finally getting Minnesota off the Schneide, The Knicks, quite frankly, their first back to back 50 win season in 30, 30 years, first conference finals 25. Like Tibbs has had success as a coach. Nobody's ever thought he's had a creative offense ever in the history of his tenure. You know, he made his bones with Van Gundy, with Doc Rivers, as a defensive sort of genius. Like he revolutionized defense, you know, in the ways that he approached the game. And so I was like, hey man, maybe Leon Rose and World Wide west could be like, look, Tibbs, we're going to bring in some kind of offensive coordinator guru, if you will, because we need to revamp this thing. But even that, isn't that what happened in Memphis this year? And ultimately they just fired the guy anyway who they bought an offensive coordinator for. So like, when you really look at the way the rest of the league is going, we can't be that surprised that Tibbs got the ax.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, I think the most movement in the Knicks offense this postseason was Jalen Brunson just jerking his head back. Other than that, there wasn't much, especially in contrast to what Indy was doing. But on your note, Rob, about firings in the NBA at the head coach level. So the two longest tenured coaches in the NBA right now, Eric Spra, Steve Kerr, I think you can get those because they've been around for a while, they've been in prominent positions, one titles, et cetera. Can you guys name the third longest NBA coach in the league right now?

[Big Woz]

Great question. Is it Ty Lou?

[Justin Barrier]

So technically the same season, but this person was hired like a month before him.

[Big Woz]

Maybe Jamal Mosley.

[Justin Barrier]

He's like within the top 10.

[Big Woz]

Was. What do you think?

[Rob Mahoney]

Wait, who do we got as the, the we got Spolster, obviously is by far the longest tenure.

[Big Woz]

And Steve Kerr out as well.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, and Steve Kerr.

[Big Woz]

Is it?

[Rob Mahoney]

Dagnal.

[Justin Barrier]

Dagnal, same year. So you guys got two of the three from that season, but technically the coach hired before them was one, Billy Donovan of the Chicago Bulls.

[Big Woz]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

And he's not fired yet?

[Justin Barrier]

Not yet. If anything, I saw some numbers indicating that the Bulls pace was right up there with the Pacers in terms of just like how much they're moving the.

[Rob Mahoney]

Ball and moving by the Bulls propaganda constantly.

[Big Woz]

How did that work out for them?

[Justin Barrier]

Not as well, but you know, we're thinking long term here. Much like Mike Horn, you know, you're turning the page. Yeah. So I, I, what year did Tylo get hired? It was the pandemic year. So 2020. 2021.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, after Doc blew the 31 lead, they fired him.

[Justin Barrier]

Yes, exactly.

[Rob Mahoney]

Got you.

[Big Woz]

That's how it used to work. You blow the lead in the playoffs and you get fired. Now you beat the defending champions and you get fired.

[Justin Barrier]

So the list of names that are circulating and I don't think a lot of it's based on reporting, I think it are putting two and two together. Yeah. Mike Malone for instance, is on espn. He also, he just got fired. Like Jeff Van Gundy for instance, has obviously the history with the Knicks. But I haven't heard Rob one candidate that like made so much sense for the specific problem the Knicks have or that would have led them to fire Tibbs. Anyone you see out there that would be a clear match.

[Big Woz]

I do not. And this is kind of the crux of the problem for me. I actually think Jeff Van Gundy would be a good choice. And if he's willing to sit, excellent choice. Yeah, the history is there. Like the reputation within New York is there. The track record is there. He also just did an amazing job overhauling the Clippers defense. And so we talked about those two paths for the Knicks. Right. Was it's like you can either revamp the offense and tweak it to make it even more efficient, even more high achieving. If you're going to run and gun and be an offense first team, you just need to be better and more stable on offense than the Knicks were, or you could dramatically improve the defense in some way. You could do that with personnel, you could do that with coaching. You could go any, any number of ways, Tibbs is the kind of defensive coach who likes his style and is not the most flexible and is not the most adaptive. And I think the Knicks struggled with that sometimes as they tried to toggle into switching more during the playoffs and in different kinds of coverages, like, they just weren't used to it. And so then you get this lag time where they're not transitioning as quickly and they're losing games. All of that said, I do not imagine, and this is me putting myself in Jeff Van Gundy's head a lot. Jeff Van Gundy, someone who has spoken an incredible amount over the years about his relationship with Tom Thibodeau, about their time coaching together. Like, I. I do not think that Jeff Van Gundy would succeed Tom Thibodeau at a job, just like, on principle, I don't think he would do it. Now, if that's. If the head coaching job available to you is to coach a team as good as the Knicks in a market like New York, maybe all of a sudden those principles start to fade away. But the Jeff Van Gundy we've been hearing from as a commentator and a coach over the last decade, plus, I don't think takes that job well in.

[Rob Mahoney]

A world where Leon Rose can fire his brother, Tom Thibodeau. That's what we're told. These guys are thick as thieves. La familia. That's the credo up there with World Wide west and Leon Rose and the CAA crew. If they get fired, tips, granted, he's gonna get paid $30 million to leave. I mean, not a bad consolation prize if you ask me.

[Big Woz]

Also, the last time he got fired and he was collecting checks while making the coaching rounds to various training camps. As happy as I have ever seen Tom Thibodeau. So no one wants to get fired, but there are blessings and curses when you got 30 mil on the books.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm just saying, in a world where Leon Rose could fire Tom Thibodeau, why can't Jeff Van Gunny step right up? I like, you know, I hear you, and just like, spiritually and emotionally, it feels wrong. But, I mean, in my opinion, especially post Tatum Achilles, the Knicks have as much talent as everybody on the board. Like, it's just obvious to me in that conte, in that conference. So I think it's a golden opportunity. I love the Jeff Van Gundy idea. I think Van Gundy is smart enough about offense to know that, like, he can't treat this like it's 99 with Marcus Camby and Larry Johnson again. And so I personally love the Van Gundy idea. I'm not keen on the Mike Malone stuff. I think that's a bad, bad mixture if anything. What were the two knocks on Mike Malone in Denver? The offense was Jokic. Go ahead. And Cook hated playing a long bench.

[Justin Barrier]

Yep.

[Rob Mahoney]

So we're literally replacing Thibodeau with Thibodeau Jr. Like, I don't see it. Maybe y' all think Mike Malone's a better fit than I do. I don't personally see it.

[Justin Barrier]

If he did take that job, would he have to go back to Mike Malone? Because Michael is way too proper.

[Rob Mahoney]

He'd go to Mikey Malone.

[Justin Barrier]

Definitely.

[Big Woz]

Mikey in New York.

[Justin Barrier]

Okay, now I can definitely see the fit. A couple other names that I just jotted down just because these are the obvious guys who were just in the league. Chaylor Jenkins, Mike Budenholzer, who is probably just on the golf course for the next five years collecting like a Dow, like $100 million a year from the Suns organization. Mike Brown out there as well. Stock of Johnny Bryant. He used to be on Tibbs coaching staff for the Knicks. Anybody else Rob that you like?

[Big Woz]

I mean there's lots of qualified assistants. Again, this just comes back to the problem of like, what are you trying to address? Is it the tactics? Is it the voice in the locker room? Like, Tibbs is a very particular communicative style. Is he too harsh in a way where you're trying to pull back? Is it the defense? Is it the offense? Like I don't have a good enough sense of what the Knicks are actually looking for to say this is the inexperienced assistant who's going to coach this team better than Tom Thibodeau just did. And I say that as someone who has issues with some of the decisions he makes. I just think like expecting someone with no head coaching experience to come into this job and immediately make everything better is a little bit naive about what Tibbs brings to the table.

[Rob Mahoney]

Also, he better have played in the league. Like it better be like a Sam Cassell. Like it better be like a guy that has some credibility with the players because the Knicks kind of have a veteran laden team. It's not a bunch of dudes that are wet behind the ears. So to bring in some 34 year old who's never played in the league. I don't know, like a lot of these guys have been very coachable throughout their careers. You know, maybe Carl Towns and stuff on defense doesn't stick necessarily. But like he's never had a Rep for being some like impossible to coach Jalen Brunson. The rest of the nova like these guys are all, you know, high iq, high character. And we identify character in this business as will listen to authority. Like these guys have been high character guys their whole career. So maybe they would listen to a younger assistant. I just, I don't know. I feel like you got to bring somebody with some level of respect and credibility in there.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. And there has been a bit of a sea change in that regard. And I think of Stan Van Gundy giving way to Willie Green. Is that like it seems like the younger generation of players tunes out. Some of the more old school grinders are a little bit more receptive to younger guys who could maybe speak to their plight a little bit more. Especially as like Stavs fill out. And the head coaching job tends to be more of one of people management. And you let some of your other assistant coaches do more of the exos acumen stuff. I agree with you Oz. I do think that is important especially when you have so many names in such a huge market. I hope it doesn't end up being Rick Brunson because I think the tactical adjustment will be just like trying to fight Dante Divincenzo.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like they play the wolves for you guys.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And it might not happen and it definitely won't happen. But I just want to throw this at you guys. Generally, obviously there's no cap on coaches salaries. Generally they keep this however they do it. They keep the coaches salaries pretty much under control. Except for what Detroit did, which was just completely insane to do that for Monty freaking Williams. Whatever. Why can't James Dolan just open up the checkbook and just take anybody's coach, just blow him out the water.

[Big Woz]

He typically from another.

[Justin Barrier]

Yes, he has done. I mean he did that for Phil Jackson. Unfortunately it was for Phil Jackson. Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

What if he did that for.

[Big Woz]

Well, it depends on Spoelstra's contract.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I got a hundred mil for you, guaranteed.

[Justin Barrier]

There have been whispers I will say over the in recent years that SPO has considered leaving the bosom of the Heat organization.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'll say that they should be at his door and back in the brink truck about now. From what I've heard, the sphere is bleeding money. I think Dolan is a lot more money conscious than he ever used to be. And so that might not be a realistic possibility. But at the same time you're firing a dude you owe 30 million to. Yeah, that's not financially prudent either. So that's what I think the Knicks should do? I think the Knicks should just back up the Brinks truck to whoever they think is the best coach in the league. Why couldn't they get Steve Kerr? Why not? What's so great about being dissed by your owner constantly in Golden State?

[Big Woz]

Here's. Here's the issue with that. Steve Kerr might be down to do it. Eric Spolster might be down to do it. $100 million. Sign those guys up in order to get them out of their contracts. What we've seen historically is you have to give up draft picks, which the Knicks do not have because they gave them all for Mikhail Bridges.

[Rob Mahoney]

Tough.

[Big Woz]

You know, I can't say we were anticipating this scenario, but this is maybe one of the reasons you want to keep some draft picks around. Among the many, many others.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just still people's coaches.

[Big Woz]

Yeah.

[Justin Barrier]

The Harrisons interested in Packham Dadier. Can we. Could we do a player for Coach Lop?

[Big Woz]

Have. Have we ever seen that? Have we ever seen a player involved?

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think so.

[Big Woz]

They're probably gets a little weird when you start getting into trading. Like Doc Rivers for Kevin Porter Jr.

[Justin Barrier]

Or what if salaries.

[Rob Mahoney]

What if they would. Couldn't they just send them money?

[Big Woz]

Sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like literally just buy the coach from them.

[Big Woz]

They could.

[Justin Barrier]

It's possible.

[Rob Mahoney]

Some cold hard cash. That's what I think they should do. But you know, it's not my money. So easy for me to say.

[Justin Barrier]

If it was, you'd be hiring Isaiah at market rate.

[Rob Mahoney]

Me and Zeke in the West Village and Tribeca. Just doing what we do.

[Justin Barrier]

That's right.

[Big Woz]

Now you can watch the best of Hulu on Disney. Like season two of nine, Perfect Strangers with Hulu on Disney and Star Wars Andor Season 2 on Disney. All of these and more now streaming with Hulu on Disney with a bundle subscription available with bundle plans starting at $10.99 a month. Terms apply. Visit disneyplus.com hulu for details.

[Justin Barrier]

All right, shall we get to the variables now? Please.

[Big Woz]

I have to say, Justin, you're glowing today. Like I feel like you're pregnant with meaning regarding the variables. Like you just. You have that sense about you. Like we're about to embark on something important.

[Justin Barrier]

Well, this is a special one because unfortunately, the last time we did this, we were flagged by Spotify. Like the lawyers or whomever is is watching over the copyright of the music that we used. And unfortunately, if you go back and listen to the previous variables, it has a different song than when we first dropped it because we had to wait.

[Rob Mahoney]

Justin, you're not getting original music.

[Justin Barrier]

I mean, it's free music.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, okay, okay, okay. Copy, copy.

[Justin Barrier]

Free use music it was. But this time we actually went out and got someone to record it for us. It's actually the same guy who does our theme song. It's John Robinson, my good friend, who is, as you guys know, in Indiana, like now. And so perhaps this has a little extra to it as a result.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm ready for this.

[Justin Barrier]

He has the corn flowing through him. At least one of us does. So on that note, Isaiah, can you hit us with the variables? NBA Finals 2025 theme so.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sam.

[Big Woz]

Zero doubt the best one. Like, it's not even close.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, it's definitely got some Beverly Hills Cops.

[Big Woz]

Oh, yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know what I mean to it? That's the feel that I get.

[Big Woz]

The bloops and the bloops. The chip tuning. Like we're really going somewhere. I feel like we live several lives within that sting.

[Justin Barrier]

That's absolutely right. I mean, I was listening to this on and off throughout the week, just like firing it up. I needed to get ready to edit some copy. Just. Let's go. Variable Sing Song 2025 all right, so we're going to go through. I think I have six questions down here. First and foremost, let's get into some of the tactics of the NBA Finals. And we have to start, I think, with the Pacers when they have the ball, because a lot of it is going to come down to what can the Pacers get away with against this near historic OkC Thunder team? And also the defense. So my question, Rob, is can any defense at this point, even the Thunder's vaunted defense, slow down what the Pacers have been able to do? Pace, flow, ball pinging all over the place. Halliburton doing all kind of magical stuff this postseason?

[Big Woz]

I think yes and no. I think they will. The Thunder defense will be able to slow down the Pacers flow, especially in the half court. Not, not. Not in a way that's dissimilar from the most successful Knicks stretches and possessions. Right. Like a lot of ball pressure really dialing up, really picking up guys, full court or 3/4 chord chasing them all the way through. And they're able to switch so much on some of those perimeter actions in a way that I think they can keep things covered. I don't necessarily think, though, that the Thunder are going to be able to slow down the Pacers in transition, and that's going to be like a big push and pull. It's like how, how much. Can you just skip over all of that hard battling against the Thunder defense by throwing the ball over the top with the Pascal Siakam leak outs with like all of those kind of trigger elements that the Pacers have at their disposal to get into the open court?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I tend to agree with Rob there. I do think they're still going to get out and transition. I just think their transition opportunities are going to be a lot better contested. It's not that they're going to stop. It's like you're going to have to actually kind of finish over somebody on those opportunities. Whereas against the Knicks, it was just wide open dunks in transition. Lou Dorrit, Caruso, all of these guys, like, they make it a point of pride, even when you have a step or two on them on the break. They just straight up like, I'm still meeting you at the rim.

[Big Woz]

Yep.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, maybe I. Maybe I foul you, maybe I don't. Maybe I smack it off your leg. But like, they're going to challenge these guys. I just think they're just going to have to finish, but the chances are going to be there. So I do think they're still going to get their transition stuff off. I just think in the half court, it's going to have to be more of a Siakam series than a Halliburton series. And I get it. He had a nice time against the Knicks, especially in like, you know, some of the bigger games, more pivotal moments. But to me, Siakam's got to be able to punish his matchups. And the paces do will force you to switch. Cause like, playing a conventional pick and roll against these dudes is death. And so he's going to force some switches. So it's a matter of can he get some of the Wiggins and the Wallaces and, you know, some of the smaller guys onto him to force OKC to adjust that way. But yeah, I think in the half court they will be slowed down.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. And that's why I'm curious, Rob, how much the Thunder emphasize stopping things in the paint as they have throughout the posting, and that's basically their M.O. of their defense this entire season. Do you think Halibur Burton is going to require them to blitz more in order to take him out in the ways that we saw increasingly over the postseason? Just because getting him even past the half court line going, he can make things happen. Do you think they'll try to sell out and just hope that they have enough interior heft, especially if they're going to stay too big at least to start with. Or do you basically single cover and then just harass and track and just assume just hope that like you just impede their freedom of movement?

[Big Woz]

I think the answer is you start just trying to impede the freedom of movement and if things go to then you start looking at more dramatic options like blitzing Haliburton outright. The problem with blitzing Halliburton is he's a pretty good like not just croc cross cross court passer but crosscourt jump passer where he's going to get a clear line of sight over the top of your defenders as they look to blitz him. That's going to be tough and for as good as Alex Caruso for example would be on the weak side trying to intercept those passes. He also does enough look offs and he has enough options on the floor where he can find all of those guys. I think I would play it more honestly first or with some light perimeter switching at first. And really what you're trying to tackle is not negating Halliburton. But can we swipe at Miles Turner? Can we swipe at Andrew Nemhardt like as these guys catch and try to make their move into the lane? Because let's remember like the Pacers want to get to mid range or to the basket. Like this is not a huge volume three point shooting team. They will take threes. They obviously space for threes. They have a lot of good shooters but they want to get in get in the mix like they want to get in action and that plays into the Thunder's hands a little bit because they're so disruptive on every live dribble.

[Justin Barrier]

So Aaron Nesmith's injury, something obviously going to track there. He went out in what end of game three played through the next two games of that series against the Knicks. I'm a little worried especially because he had an ankler injury earlier in the season, kept him out for about two months. When he got back is when they really took off was it just feels like the Pacers have done so well in large part because all five pieces are working in harmony. There's just so much synergy, so much fast cutting, fast movement. Just like everything just seems to be on a string and if he's not right I do wonder if things do tail off, especially if the Thunder are going to be in their like shorts pretty much like they have been this entire postseason.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I mean the team took off when N. Smith and Nemhard found themselves in in their roles in that starting Lineup. Like, that's when Indy became Indy. So, like, I know it's crazy to say, but this guy is crucial to their identity, especially on defense. They were so soft on defense before him and Nebhar became the sort of focal point of what they do. And, you know, even if he's not in peak form, I think his physicality is still going to leave an imprint on the game and still be able to slow these guys, especially the J Dub to types, you know, I think his. I think his presence is going to be felt no matter what. Now, look, I have a hard time believing anybody's just going to put Shay in the clamps at this point. Like, I'm sorry. Like, I just don't see that in the cards for anyone. But, you know, this guy has to be in terms of what they do perimeter wise with the two big dogs. He has to be prominently involved if they're going to have even a scintilla of a chance. But I think even a limited niecemith is so much better than what they have coming behind him. Like, we saw, like, especially early on in the Knicks series, they were freaking toast against Brunson when anybody but Neesmith was guarding him. And Nemart had some nice moments later on his series. But if you look like Brunson averaged like 34 points a game or something crazy like that in the series, you know what I mean? So. And a lot of it is Neesmith getting in foul trouble and hurting his ankle and that kind of stuff. So I do think he's. He's got to have an imprint, and I think that he will. But, you know, even I. I think even in the best of times, y' all, it's going to be hard for Indy to really slow these guys down.

[Big Woz]

Yeah, I mean, guarding Shea is tough. Guarding Jalen Brunson is tough, as you alluded to was. And I can't imagine two players I would want to guard less on a bad ankle than those two guys.

[Justin Barrier]

Can we talk about some of the matchups as we're sticking with when Indy has the ball here? So I assume Dort is going to get the Halliburton job, right?

[Big Woz]

Well, I think that depends on if Hardenstein starts.

[Justin Barrier]

He'll probably start. Yeah, he. He may start.

[Big Woz]

But like Hardenstein on Miles Turner is not the most functional matchup for the Thunder in this series. We've seen them flex and go smaller with Caruso in that spot, even with Isaiah Joe in that spot. Although I don't think that's necessary against the Pacers, really. It's like a different. Solving a different problem. I wouldn't be shocked to see Caruso start, if not in Game one, then at some point in this series, if the Thunder feel like they need to. To pull that particular lever.

[Justin Barrier]

That's a great point because as I was doing kind of the matchups there, at least from when OKC is on defense, I was curious where Chet fell into the mix. If you do have Hartenstein guarding Turner, or if Chet's guarding Turner, then where does Hartenstein go? I imagine, like, if you believe that Nemhardt is more of the shooter he was in the regular season than he's in the postseason, like, maybe you could be a little funny about it and just like, like, slump off of him. Unfortunately, he. He is lights out in the postseason. I think Naismith is shooting 50% from 3, and I think Nempar is not far behind there. And so you're right. I think the one big look is probably where they're going to default to. And I have a stat for that because that lineup has been absolutely fucking lights out when Chet is on the court and Hartenstein is off. So basically, when Chet is the go to center there, 19.8 net rating in 272 minutes. The offensive rating is 123.8. The defensive rating, 104.5. That's absolutely unreal wise. So you're basically forcing them into the lineup they probably are best at.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. It's funny because I don't think Chet is your Siakam guy, not at all for this series, because, like, Siakam has a lot of Shay in him. He's going to knock your ass back straight up to create the space. Like, that's. He specializes in that move. And I don't think Chet is the guy to kind of influence that. I think you do need to put somebody with a little bit more heft. I think Lou Dort is a nice matchup for. For Siakam for that reason. Like, he's hard to move in that way where, yeah, Siakam could shoot over him, but he's not going to just, you know, power through this guy to get these plum looks that he's so incredible at generating. You know, I think a lot of people, especially when I was looking at the Internet, like, well, Shay's going to. I mean, Chet's obviously going to guard Siakam. I'm. I don't know if I want to do that, man. Putting fouls on my guy and also drawing him from his help responsibilities. I don't want to do that. I think Hartenstein is a decent matchup again. I think you want to put some heft on the Siakam way more than you need foot speed. I think you need heft. I think you need somebody who's going to actually withstand the force that this guy plays with when he's trying to get to the Cup. And so that's what I'll definitely be watching because I think Siakam has to be the one, you know, creating advantages and forcing OKC to send some obvious help. Cause I. I mean, again, I. I've been. I've been wrong before about Nemhard and Niecemith and what they could do on offense. Maybe they will do it again against okc. I just. I just don't think those guys are going to be offensive drivers. I just don't.

[Big Woz]

Yeah, I mean, there's going to be a lot asked of them at. At points in this series, but I think. I think J Dub is the natural pick to guard Siakam at a lot. Someone who doesn't have the size that you're talking about was. But we've seen him guard bigs all throughout this, all throughout these playoffs with no issue whatsoever.

[Rob Mahoney]

Quick hands, too.

[Big Woz]

Quick hands. And I think here's the thing that really worries me about Chet is when you think about the Thunder on offense trying to transition into defense to guard the Pacers. Where is Chet on the floor? Sometimes he's in the corner, sometimes he's in the dunker spot on the baseline. Sometimes he's spotting up at the top of the floor. But he's not the quickest to turn and bolt back and transition defense like he's a big. And you're expecting him to keep up with Pascal Siakam as he gets out on the break with the ball and without over and over and over again. I. I think that's asking a bit too much of him.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not just to speed the conditioning too. Like his. His condition isn't peak form yet. He's still a young guy. He's kind of barely played in the freaking NBA, if we're being honest. In terms of games played. Like he's not prime condition in India. Is going to test that, you know, at every single point.

[Justin Barrier]

Yep. And for that track meet sort of pace that I think we're all expecting, I would expect that the Thunder will go deep into their, like, small ball center looks. I think we'll get a lot of J Dub at center and a bunch of wings out there. I think we'll see Kenrich Williams, probably a lot in this series as a result of that. And that's the thing. Like do the Pacers really have someone who could punish their lack of size? Like Turner's not that guy. So it will probably have to be Siakam in order to tilt the advantage back in their direction. All right, why don't we look at the other side of the ball with the Thunder. Isaiah, drop the beat punchy a little shorter this time a little different, keeping you on your toes.

[Big Woz]

Okay. Okay.

[Justin Barrier]

All right. So I kind of just want to ask like did the Thunder or do the Pacers really have a shot here? I think the hope would be that you just keep them out of transition. And the Pacers have been so good wise at like protecting the ball this entire postseason. That combination of being able to for the Thunder being able to turn teams over and protect the ball is almost unbeatable at this point. But a lot of this is just probably going to come down to can you keep them in the half court one and then what can you do against that? Look, when you're there, can you yourself.

[Rob Mahoney]

Be a transition team while keeping the other team out of transition?

[Big Woz]

You can, I think.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Big Woz]

I mean honestly, I think the Pacers are largely pretty good at that because they are a low turnover team typically and they do get back really well off of like say long rebounds that might result in transition opportunities against other teams. But my Thunder a little bit of a different beast.

[Justin Barrier]

It is tough though because it ultimately rob like it feels like a lot of this series is going to be dictated one by ball control, which is probably not the sexiest sell if you're a common fan. But also I think you can transition.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, turning the ball over and throwing up on yourself, that's attractive to to me people that don't do that.

[Justin Barrier]

That's a good point. No, we're anti vomit podcast but also being played in transition. So I guess if it isn't are the Pacers really have as much of a chance because of the personnel isn't as suited especially with Nith being injured in order to line up with 3 guys when they're clicking in SGA chat J Dub who seemed pretty formidable as that series in the west finals went along.

[Big Woz]

Yeah, I think it's going to be a tough series for the Pacers on this side of the ball. They're. They're a good defensive team but they do need a healthy Aaron Nesmith to throw it Shea and otherwise they just need the stable of guys to try to disrupt what the Thunder are bringing here offensively, I see really mixed results for them on that end of the floor. I just don't think they're going to be able to do it consistently enough. We have enough of a sample now to trust some of these OKC shooters like Lou Dort is not going to hit every night. JDub might not hit every night. Alex Crusoe has been pretty good.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's hit every night.

[Big Woz]

He's hit every night. Keison Wallace has been pretty good consistently from three. So they have enough guys who are hitting that you can live with some of the variables. And I think Chad is probably among that variable group too. I apologize. I should, I should have hit variables harder on that.

[Justin Barrier]

Thank you.

[Big Woz]

You can live with that particular variable when you're trying to contain everything else. And if you're, if you're successful crowding Shea, holding him, tamping down his offensive explosions at the, at the expense of some of those threes, that's the kind of bargain Indy could live with. I just don't know that they're going to be able to do either end of that all that successfully.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, matchup is, I guess Nemhard is going to draw the Shay match up and niece Smith guards J Dub. I guess J Dub is bigger than him. But like, do we love any of this? Like, I, I don't think Nemhard is going to be some, you know, some stopgap measure. Like, I think it's going to have to be a team situation when it comes to guarding Shade, which means all of those guys that Rob mentioned, they're going to have opportunities to shine on on the world's biggest stage. So I, like, I don't, I still don't think these guys are like who you want, taking really tough shots. But that's the thing. When you got Shay, he's bending the defense to his will and Caruso's not taking hard threes, he's taking wide open finger to the wind. Okay. Yeah, dribble once type of threes. So, you know, that's, that's pretty decent offense if you can get it.

[Justin Barrier]

So I respect the dark arts that Nemhardt has used to great effect over the course of his career. At this point, especially in the postseason, the whole pulling of the chair, like on the fly thing that gave the. Cooper has been documenting for a really long time is just another level. I think that's going to work once, maybe twice, but I have a hard time thinking that he's the guy who's going to be able to slow down Sga and to that point he did get the assignment most often when they matched up during the regular season. Only about 12 minutes or so is what they logged on the tracking. And Shai did score 61.1 field goal percentage. And so the tracking is a little wonky with those. It's not always hyper accurate, but just seems like the Pacers Rob got a little lucky in who they saw as the playoffs went on because a lot of what they were matched up against was guard driven offense, Brunson Mitchell, without Garland. And so I'm not suggesting that like they shouldn't have won those series because I think they've been on this kind of magic carpet ride through the east, but I think it worked to their benefit. They didn't have to come up with the wing, the like the sturdy 3 and D wing defenders in abundance because after Neesmith it kind of you're left searching for other guys.

[Big Woz]

Well, I mean this is also guard driven offense that the Thunder are busting out. I, I don't, I guess structure is.

[Justin Barrier]

Is just a different beast like big wing. I don't know how we want to categorize them.

[Big Woz]

Yeah, whatever bucket you want to put him in, he's a tough cover and he. And he's going to be a tough cover for any team. I think kind of what we're drilling down on is the Thunder are not the opponent that any team should want to see in the NBA Finals or at any point in the playoffs. But the Pacers, especially the Thunder, are an antidote for a lot of their movement, for a lot of their style. They can hang with Indy trying to play this fast, trying to push and advance the ball. Every opportunity like this Thunder team can get back and they can punch back and ultimately they have more one on one creative juice than the Pacers do. And ultimately that matters in a series like this, in a series where whether it's going to be a track meet or whether it's going to be a slug fest, like eventually you're going to have to like turn the balance of the game through some of those like random one on one possessions. And Pascal Sjakam has been great at that for the Pacers, but he's not the mvp. And Shai has produced like an MVP in these playoffs. He has lived up to his billing. He's been every bit as good, I think as we expected and hoped he would be coming into this postseason. I. There's just not a good answer for that. Like it's really not that complex.

[Rob Mahoney]

And yeah, Halliburton has shown, you know, he had to prove the very that he's not afraid to get to the cup. He, he was getting to the basket with the. Against the Knicks. He was finishing over guys against the Knicks. His floater game finally like, you know, last year, very, very early on last season, very early on the floor, floater was just unstoppable. Then it went away. And then, you know, he came back from the Olympics and it was like, okay, what the hell is going on with this dude? But what he showed in the first two rounds is like, I'm deadly pull up shooter. I will take it to the cup when I absolutely need to. I'm going to find every single open guy, every single crease in your defense. And so yeah, Halliburton is going to have to try his hand at being a one on one creator off the dribble. Like they don't have another choice. Like that's how the team is constructed. And again, if Oklahoma City's gonna be like, yo, we're not playing you in convention with a conventional pick and roll coverage. We're not just gonna let Miles Turner catch the ball at the top of the key wide ass open and just take three after three, then, yeah, it's gonna be on. It's gonna be on Halle to make it happen.

[Justin Barrier]

How do we feel about Hal Burton on the defensive end? I feel like he's held up pretty well, especially considering his reputation. Do we think that was more a product of everything just going so well, or do we think he will be able to stand up enough to where he won't be targeted?

[Big Woz]

To me, I think there's lots of places for him in this series. No one's like, there's, there's guys he can guard and there's ways to protect him.

[Rob Mahoney]

But it's not just that, like early, like, you know, early on in his Sacramento days, he was horrible on defense. He wasn't like, oh, he's kind of. No, he was terrible. And now I think it's two things. I think when you're not Mr. Heliocentric, guess what? You can a lot of times be better at defense when you really try to because you're not expending. So think about Jalen Brunson, the amount of energy that goes into every bucket that he gets. He doesn't get easy buckets. Everything he does is difficult. Creating the space, pounding the rock, the stop and start, the quick. Like it's. He's expended so much energy to create that offense. By the time it's on Defense, it's like, bro, it's not gonna happen. Halliburton doesn't do that. He doesn't play that way. So he has enough in the tank to be respectable. Nobody's calling him Gary Payton or nothing like that, but he could be. He's shown that he can be more than respectable and I think that's. That's kind of enough.

[Justin Barrier]

What about Gary Payton? Second Rob, do you think he can get to that level?

[Big Woz]

No one can.

[Justin Barrier]

That's right.

[Big Woz]

I do think that that is a good point though was with honestly Brunson that we probably could have brought up in the Tibbs conversation. Like, one way to improve New York's defense is by making Jalen Brunson do less offensively. And then all of a sudden he's not targeted in the same way. Halliburton, I think, like has acclimated himself really well defensively, both like standing up in matchups when he's targeted and also getting out of them where the Pacers will. Will kind of like scram, switch him out, or will protect him with other matchups. Like, they've done a good job of that. And Halliburton has done in turn responded by being really active off the ball and coming up with some big steals, being disruptive in other ways. Like, I think we get into this mode where it's like, if you're not a good defender, if you're a lesser on ball defender, you need to be guarding the guy in the corner and just kind of staying out of the way. Ideally, you can find other ways to get in the mix that aren't like putting you in the same level, putting you at the same level of vulnerability. But ultimately you're able to have a positive impact on defense. I think that's where a line that Halliburton has been walking pretty effectively in these playoffs.

[Justin Barrier]

All right, on that note, let's pivot now to number three on our list. Isaiah, drop it.

[Big Woz]

Damn. Just banger after banger.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's go.

[Justin Barrier]

Well, it's an appropriate segue to this one because we're talking playoff juice, baby. I don't know if you guys have heard this, but there are two small market teams in the NBA Finals. Can you believe it? Catastrophe.

[Big Woz]

What. What are we going to do with.

[Justin Barrier]

Ourselves that there are two teams from middle America? I just want to throw this out there to you. And wise, we can start with you because this is. You are the representative of the heartland or the very least you have your finger on the pulse. Does this matter to you at all that. These are two small market teams. Does it help? Does it hurt? What do you think?

[Rob Mahoney]

It doesn't matter. It's just the NBA is the most nitpicked league in the history of leagues. It just is. And so when this kind of outcome happens, like it's. It literally only matters to espn, bro. Like they're the ones that have to sell ads against these games. Like, it doesn't matter. The NBA itself has locked these jokers into 10 years of NBA seasons. Like they're paid. Like, if anything, you know what, in seven years I'll talk to you about this. Ratings, blah, blah, blah, interest, blah, blah, blah stuff. Again, at this point, it doesn't matter. And I would submit to you, we need this in order to move forward. We need Shay to become a champion or Halle to have a bullseye on his back. So that next playoff when everybody's trying to rip their heads off and people are no longer, oh, isn't it so cute that they do the group interviews together? Like when people are dissing that and taking snipes and taking hard files on these dudes and all. Like, we need this step in order to move on, in order to make our next big great, compelling stars. And so sure, we're in a, you know, a sort of interregnum period. That's okay. We're making tomorrow stars today.

[Big Woz]

I'm roused. What an impassioned speech.

[Justin Barrier]

Well, I actually have a stat that kind of feeds into what Woz is talking about. According to our friend Tom Haberstrough, this is the first time since church 2007 the finals will feature two teams who didn't play on Christmas Day. And he follows up to suggest even in 2007 there was only one game because of Monday Night Football. And so I think was absolutely right. It reminds me a lot of what you see in other businesses now where the economics have changed. In tv, it's because of streaming and on and on, where people are expecting old world paydays rather than accept the new environment and adjust accordingly. It almost felt like the NBA wants to keep pushing the cash cow of LeBron, Steph, Etc. We're great and we love seeing them on on marquee events. But to keep like backloading with some of the best stars, including the Thunder, who were a number one seasonal, was last year and were going to be incredible this year, not having them seems like a big Ms. Rob, because they were going to be on this stage. Why not get ahead of that and start to build the like just the familiarity with the common fan.

[Big Woz]

Yeah, it's just a bizarre decision to not have Shay Gil just Alexander playing on Christmas. Like why would. Why would you want that? And to me, the trade offs are not teams like the warriors and the Lakers. Like those are unique draws with unique generational stars. I say this with all due respect to Kevin Durant. The Phoenix Suns are not that like the Phoenix Suns playing on Christmas doesn't need to happen. The Philadelphia 76ers playing on Christmas Eve, even if you thought they would be the best version and healthiest version of themselves when you booked, it does not need to happen like those their stars were celebrating. I'm not saying like, don't put Joel Embiid on national television if he's healthy. But Shay Gilgeous Alexander has been not just like next up for a while, but a megastar hiding in plain sight, just like waiting to be advertised as such. And it's just like it really is a failure on the NBA's part to make the most of that. I also think, you know, the small market stuff does not really matter ultimately. Like, it's a convenient storyline to talk about. Just like built versus bot or offense versus defense. It's like we just kind of grasp at these things that are like, right in front of us. Depending on who the matchup is. Here's a part of the series that I'm really looking forward to. The travel, I would imagine by mileage is probably less than it's ever been in the NBA Finals. Like, having two teams in the middle of the country is not so much a bad thing when you're minimizing direct flight. Well, we can't, but they certainly can.

[Justin Barrier]

Should they put that on the poster? Like logistics. The logistics. Bold. Your 2025 NBA Finals look.

[Big Woz]

We don't just put that Aaron Gordon clip where he was talking about the mileage on these guys. Like, I think it's a real thing for the competition of the series.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's not our job as the media to be Pollyanna about the NBA, right? Like, the truth of the matter is if the Knicks were in the Finals, more people would watch it. It's just true. And that's fine though. But that's like, that's okay. We can have a year like now if for 10 straight years. You know, it's Memphis and Indy and Milwaukee in the Finals, I'll be like.

[Big Woz]

We should only be so lucky.

[Rob Mahoney]

NBA might want to figure something out.

[Justin Barrier]

I think the, I think the bigger issue is that there isn't a contrast between the teams. Like, if it Was the, the surprising Pacers with this electric offense going up against the old guard Steph Curry. There would be a natural counterbalance there where you could really sell that because this just feeds into most of our favorite narratives throughout time. Unfortunately, the Thunder and the Pacers are on similar enough trajectories that they almost overlap. And compounding that is also the fact that everyone is kind of expecting the Thunder to stomp on the Pacers. If the games get better, then I think you'll see people turn around. But I think you see a lot of people just following suit of what we're saying, which is like, think the Thunder pretty big. Yeah, the big advantage here.

[Rob Mahoney]

And another thing, that's, that's why we need Cooper Flag to turn into something. We could get a Caitlin Clark Angel Reese situation going in the NBA.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, he will fight some guys. There's no doubt.

[Rob Mahoney]

Must see tv.

[Big Woz]

Genuine question, like, this is outside of my zone. I do not watch any football. Does this conversation happen with the NFL? Like, Kansas City's in the Super Bowl. Does anyone give a shit?

[Rob Mahoney]

Different, though.

[Justin Barrier]

Every market matters in football. Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's just different. Like, like the machine, the one day, the easy way to gamble on it. The, like every single game literally actually mattering for an entire season.

[Big Woz]

Sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's just. And again, it's, it's America's favorite sport by far. Okay, like, and so it doesn't matter if it's Kansas City and Green Bay in the Super Bowl. People like, I don't give a shit. I'm still going to eat a bunch of wings, gamble the hell out of it and, you know, I mean, show up to work hungover as hell on Monday. Yes, it's what they're going to do.

[Justin Barrier]

It's always operated different than basketball in that regard. There's plenty of factors that feed into that. I mean, the NBA even leaned into it itself by selling LA vs Boston and all the things that are associated with that for so many years. And then also selling stars over teams, yada, yada, yada. We've had this conversation a million times. But yeah, I, I, I, it is, it is a hard fact, yes, that those markets probably won't have as much appeal to the casual fan. I note it, but don't ultimately care because that's not technically what we do unless the money filters into some sort of conversation we're having. And like, it affects the actual bylaws or the product in a way that's like, important for us to discuss. We're going to watch this no matter What? As we've said time and time again. So, like, if anything, the basketball seems pretty compelling, if only because, like, I don't know what we're going to get from the Pacers if they do start to win games. And this will be probably one of the more entertaining finals we've seen in a little while.

[Rob Mahoney]

I just want to say to the fans that are listening, because I don't want to be the scoldy, you guys should eat your vegetables and watch Jake Gilbert. Like, the truth of the matter is, when I wasn't doing this for work and the spurs played the goddamn Pistons in the Finals, I started tuning in, like, game six. I'm sorry, y' all. I did not. I was an NBA die hard. I was not keyed into that series whatsoever. And so, like, I'm not gonna sit here and, you know, casuals or whatever who aren't locked into the paces. And Thunder, I think it's our. I think it's the league and its partners jobs to communicate to the public that they should be interested in these kids.

[Big Woz]

That much is definitely true. I just think if you are one of these people who's getting ready to. To roll out your talking points, make sure they're straight. Because if you're a Mamba mentality fan, I feel like you probably should like, Shay a lot. Like, his game is right there for the taking. If you're a. The modern. No one plays defense in the modern NBA kind of person. Like, the Thunder are a pretty compelling counterpoint for that. If you think everyone in the league plays the same way. I don't know, man. No one plays like the Pacers. Like, there's a lot happening here that is exciting from a basketball perspective. Also, big picture, you hit a Justin squarely. Not our job, not a responsibility. I frankly do not care how many people watch the NBA Finals. I will be there. And the NBA doesn't really care how many people watch the NBA finals because their TV deal is up for, like, 10 more years. Like, it's a literal decade before this is a problem. Yes.

[Justin Barrier]

Our job is to foster the vibes. And on that note, Isaiah hit us. There we go.

[Big Woz]

Absolutely.

[Justin Barrier]

All right, taking a little bit of curveball here. Alternate timelines. So I've asked you guys to at least ponder some of the biggest what if scenarios that could have diverted the paths of the two teams that we are now expecting to see clash on the final stage. So I have two here. First and foremost, what if the Suns don't match the offer sheet on Deandre Ayton? That the Pacers put in front of him. Do we not get this triumphant moment for Miles Turner a decade into his Pacers career, finally being appreciated for all that he does? And on the flip side of this, what if Paul George isn't as enamored with Russell Westbrook's party aesthetics, the vibe that he threw for him on the night of free agency that got him to go back to okc. And then obviously Paul George stays there. He gets traded to the Clippers, yada yada yada. And we get Jay gilgers Alexander winning MVPs in Oklahoma City. Did you guys see any other big ones or Those especially the DeAndre 8 one the big ones for you?

[Big Woz]

That one is so funny. I like to think that Miles Turner rolling into these finals, having his triumphant moment gets to wear like the broken gears of the trade machine. As if he's like in the Thunderdome, like a post apocalyptic Miles Turner. He deserves that moment after everything he's been through.

[Rob Mahoney]

I obviously, I think it's the Paul George situation because the Paul George trey got them Shay and J Dub and Jada. But even that was like the Clippers pick Paul George ended up having Covid for the play in so he missed that playing game and the Clippers ended up losing. So that pick turns into the 12th pick. Like again J Dub cool. And J Dub is great. He's an all star, all of that stuff. I think you can get an all star who's played at the level of J Dub has this year on the open market. I don't think it's impossible. He might not be as young. He won't be on a cost controlled, you know, contract the way J Dubs is like he's on a rookie deal playing the way that he's playing cool. But I think you get his production some other way. I did. There's just no other way to get an MVP candidate. It just on just not only did you get an mvp, you got a. Not even an mvp, you got an mvp. He's going to be a perennial MVP candidate kind of guy and you got 7 million picks with him. That's, that's it. That's the OKC team. They had the one tank year which is when they got chat and that's it. They tanked one year.

[Big Woz]

But people got real upset about it. They, they got real mad about that Thunder team for some reason. One year in the wilderness, they tanked.

[Rob Mahoney]

One year and yeah, I think it but it all just comes down to getting Shea, Gil Alexander which again like y' all could try to do y' all revisionist history. Nobody thought this would happen. Okay? I said it on Zach Low Show. I was like, even think about Evan Mobley after his rookie year. If the Clippers were in possession of that type of prospect, they would have sent back way less draft capital. This guy might be the next kg, blah, blah, blah. Like, he was seen as, like, a tier 1 1A after his rookie year. Same could be said for Aunt Edwards, even, or, you know, plenty of other guys. After one year, we're like, hold on, man. There's something crazy with that. Yeah, nobody thought this about Shea, Gildrich, Alexander at all. Like, at all. This was not in the ether. And they do this Paul George deal and they get that in return. Come on, man. That's the magic potion right there.

[Big Woz]

I think not just getting Shay in that deal, but getting Shay, period, under any circumstances, I think is the most important transaction in Thunder history. And maybe we can blend. Like, depending on how you want to define Sonic's history versus Thunder history, drafting Kevin Durant in 2007, incredibly important decision.

[Rob Mahoney]

Or not drafting Greg Odin. Right, like, because, like, we want Greg Odin. You know what I mean?

[Big Woz]

That decision was taken out of their hands, but getting Kevin Durant and everything that led up to it, franchise altering, momentum changing, move, getting Shea, I think is as important as that. Despite the fact that Shay clearly has a long way to go before he has all of the accolades that Kevin Durant does. But that's part of the point, is, like, he's this good and still this young and could be a part of the Thunder for an incredibly long time if he and the team choose for that to. Or really, if he chooses for that to happen and the team justifies that.

[Justin Barrier]

Happening, I'd be remiss if I didn't know also that Paul George ultimately helped the Pacers get Tyrese Halliburton. Because George begets Sabonis and Oladipo Sabonis begets Tyrese Halliburton. And so Paul George, just six degrees of separation from so many titles and so many awesome teams, but unfortunately, he tends not to play play for them.

[Big Woz]

I. I do have one other what if for you, Justin, which is, what if the warriors had traded for Pascal Siakam? He was right there available to them, like, they had every chance to get in on the Siakam Derby, just as the Pacers did. We've talked about Indy's, like, what Indy traded away to get Pascal in the first place. It's not an overwhelming haul. Nothing that the warriors could not have matched if they had chosen to. Now, things have worked out pretty well with Jimmy Butler so far. I think that's a good fit. I'm not begrudging any of that. I'm looking at it more from Indy's perspective, which is if the warriors or any other team jump at Pascal, I think Indy is chasing other kinds of stars, other kinds of players, guys who frankly are not as perfect with their team as Pascal Siakam as like, the precision of that fit has been so great that even someone like OG Anunoby, for example, is a really good player and may have also been available around that time to them if they had, you know, made the right kind of offer. Just doesn't fit with the Pacers in the same way.

[Rob Mahoney]

My what if? I'm still, I'm still fascinated by the Knicks trade. The, the, the two teams that lost to these finals teams. And I'm like, would either of those teams would have been better suited to beat OKC or New York by not having made the deals that they made? Like, would Minnesota have been a better position to beat OKC this year? I think they would have. Considering how clogged toilet their offense was against okc. I think having that stretch ability, you know, would have been key. Now, would they have won the series? I don't think so. But like, you know, I, I, I do wonder. And the Knicks, same thing. I wonder if they would have been just better suited. Just, you know, I don't, I don't even know what Randall would have brought to the Pacers series. I just, I'm, I could see because like we don't even know if Minnesota is going to keep Randall, but the Knicks have kept Randall after going to the conference finals. Like, I'm still like, that's such a weird ass trade still to me because of the parties involved, the sort of polarizing nature of both of those guys. Games where it's like both of them just go from goat to hero, quarter to quarter, game the game, possession of possession. And I do wonder if just matchup wise, you know, both of their conference finals runs would have been better or worse. That seems, you know, that's what I'm still stuck on, that, that Randall deal.

[Justin Barrier]

But would we have gotten the same Dante DiVincenzo Villanova commercial that we have seen 90 billion times over the past two months? No. So I haven't seen a compelling answer.

[Big Woz]

I haven't seen a compelling answer as to why Dante DiVincenzo is wearing a visor in that commercial. Like you can't you can't get this man a fitted. Is that against the rules?

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, Lord.

[Justin Barrier]

He seems like a visor guy. I think he's hitting the links on his off time, and I could see that actually has more of that. No, wise. It's a good one. I have to imagine Mikhail Bridges would still be mildly disappointing and they would probably still end up where they ended up. But you're right, like, if they just didn't do those moves, things would have been a lot different going to the finals. Why don't we go now to number five?

[Big Woz]

Very Atari on that one.

[Justin Barrier]

We're talking. Yeah, we're talking legacies. Number five. I asked you guys who this title would mean the most to. Now, this is a little, kind of a difficult question because all of these guys might be on their second contract at this point, so there's still a lot of NBA to play. But, Rob, does anyone jump out to you at, like, this title would mean so much to me right now and maybe in the future.

[Big Woz]

I have three guys and Justin, I would like to present them to you, and you can kind of choose your own adventure. Tell me which door you want to go through.

[Justin Barrier]

Okay.

[Big Woz]

Number one, Sam Presti. Number two. Number two, Pascal Siakam. Number three, Rick Carlisle. Which would you like to talk about?

[Justin Barrier]

Let's do Carlisle.

[Rob Mahoney]

Carlisle is my pick, by the way, in terms of his perception. I think he goes into, like, all time. He's at the upper echelon of coaches ever in our league. If he somehow pulls this off, too.

[Big Woz]

The Carlisle argument and the Siakam argument are kind of similar in the sense that, like, when you win titles with two different franchises and totally different cores, whether you're a coach or a player, I think it just puts you into pretty rare air. And I think Carlisle, especially one of the most adaptive coaches we've ever seen. This is the coach who overhauled his style to fit Jason Kidd with the Dallas Mavericks and won that team a title in doing so. Is a dramatically different coach now in terms of the pace of play for Indiana. Also changed his style for Luka Doncic. Also changed his style for the post. Malice at the Palace Pacers and like, help these, like, scrappy, upstart teams that didn't have their best players overachieve relative to what they could throw out there. Like, he's just proven to be one of those guys who can get the absolute most out of anyone he coaches. And you can't point to a lot of singular things to say. These are the ways that Rick Carlisle teams always play except to say that they are immaculately well prepared. And so if, if you have that kind of overall well rounded resume and you're winning multiple titles with multiple franchises, you're an all timer. Like he's already a Hall of Famer, but that is a, again a different class of coach.

[Justin Barrier]

He won a title with the Celtics as a player, right? Yes. So the resume is long. And you're right, it's, it's exhaustive in just the different approaches he's taken to different teams. And honestly, if he wins a title with this Pacers team, considering the odds people are stacking against them, it would probably be worth a Hall of Fame spot in its own right.

[Rob Mahoney]

So like if he wins a championship, it's basically like Phil Jackson, Popovich, Red Arabic. And it's like the tier that he's gonna go into. Yeah, that's crazy to think, you know what I mean about Rick Carlisle. But like if he manages to pull this off, man, he's gonna, that's, that's where we're gonna place him.

[Justin Barrier]

Why don't I do one of mine and maybe we can circle back to those other ones Rob mentioned. I have Shea Gildrick's Alexander down here and now Shay has a very long career ahead of him. We hope knock on wood for no injuries to befall him. I do think though he's an interesting figure and we're talking about like the next superstar in the NBA, face of the league, whatever you want to call it in part because he kind of checks a lot of the boxes you would want if especially as we're going for the template that has typically been successful in this regard. Kobe, even mj, all those type of guys, like we look for a certain type of player. Shay being a high scoring wing on a like a highly competitive team is that I would say is a personality. He's a little bit unknowable. I think he's a very congenial kid. Like the was mentioned, like the post game stuff. Like it seems like everyone gets along and that's nice. And the fashion stuff seems like the be the thing that tends to pop with him. But I don't really know much about him and so I don't really see him as like a personality in this league. But I do think the one thing we undersell in the Jordan template is someone who just wins and wins constantly. That at a certain point you are forced to give like to take note of this person and he has to be at a certain level when selling the league. And I think if he gets a title now, starts stacking multiple titles, obviously the Jordan Bar is probably never going to be accomplished again considering how many he has in such a short period of time. But like tracking like three and four years, sort of like success, then Shay has to be the guy in the NBA. And I think it probably starts now with his first opportunity.

[Big Woz]

Yeah, it just. You don't see 26 year old superstars win at all very often. You know, I think there have been a couple cases in recent history. Dwyane WADE Obviously with the 06 heat was like a force of nature and even significantly younger than Shea. But since then it's been a lot of older heads, it's been a lot of veteran guys who have been around, who have had the losses, who have taken their lumps. But fundraiser's taken some of those lumps, but they've sort of jumped the process in terms of accelerating. So like to become so good so quickly, so dominant defensively and Shay lifting everything up on the other side of the ball with how much he's able to create. I agree with you, like winning is ultimately like the best personality to have for someone like Shay, who is. He will talk. And I do appreciate as far as the post game interviews go, as far as like any Thunder group setting, whenever Chet says something kind of cryptic or J dub, sorts of sort of like trails off so he can add the next towel to Nick Allen or whatever, like Shay will double back and like reiterate the company line. Like he is a good leader in communication publicly, internally and externally. If you just come in and win and win and win and win and win. I think your story writes itself in a lot of ways. And your appeal as a player where you're just a singular style of creator on the court who no one can stop and every time you're a tough out in the playoffs, that that's a mythological kind of creation. And that's when you get into a territory where it's not like we're looking for something to like about this guy. It's like you're just kind of an undeniable NBA presence.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. And I think the other thing that I'm tracking now and how the league is changing and LeBron has four rings and Steph has four rings and Kobe has five rings and Shaq has four rings and like I don't think Giannis or Jokic or Aunt Edwards or Jason, I don't think they gonna get the four rings. Like I don't think any of these young guys are gonna win. Be able to string that many championships together, specifically not as mvp, like finals MVP level of guys. So like, you know, if you're able to even get one, get one or two in this climate is going to be very challenging because of the freaking way that Adam Silver and his boys in the ownership group have made roster construction such a difficult. Like keeping great players on one team so hard. Like, I do wonder if Shay can, you know, and you know, we know how stacked at Thunder are, how well positioned they are to do well in future postseasons and all of that. Like if he can be the guy that actually stack some rings together. Because like, like I said, like, I don't like, like we look at our ringer, NBA top 100 or whatever. Like go through the list going out tomorrow, go through the list of the top 1 through 10, 12 or whatever. How many of those dudes do you think is going to end up with four rings when they retire? You know? So that's what I think is cool about what Shay's doing right now.

[Big Woz]

I, I love what you're saying. Was it also concerns me as somebody who lives in the spaces that we do, who participate in the NBA discourse. Are we just resigned to no one is ever going to live up to not just Jordan, but LeBron but Stephen. Are these guys never going to be allowed to be great on their own terms because they don't win four rings?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think they will. But like, objectively speaking, these guys aren't as good as Mike and LeBron in their prime.

[Big Woz]

Like, well, no, no one is near that level. Like, let's, let's be real about all of that. It's not close.

[Justin Barrier]

Oh God. The next layer of hell is what you're saying is we're going to. These guys won't stand up to LeBron who didn't stand up to Jordan.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Big Woz]

Yes.

[Justin Barrier]

Oh God. I don't think I could do that full time.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, but I'm telling you, like, people, you know, people already being like, well, Jokic only has one ring. He's got one ring. What's so good about his resume? Why is he an all timer? He's got one ring. I'm like, guys, this is insane.

[Justin Barrier]

I will say though, the, the recipe to popularity these days is to reboot IP from the past. And the way to do that in the NBA is to turn Shay Gildress Alexander into the ultimate winner because that's as close as we'll get to like any sort of like four quadrant popularity for any of these guys.

[Rob Mahoney]

So I guess we got a Rufusade to win six rings?

[Justin Barrier]

I guess so.

[Rob Mahoney]

Go undefeated in the finals.

[Justin Barrier]

It could be a lot worse, man. Rob, do you want to do one of your other two?

[Big Woz]

Yeah. Let's talk about Sam Presti for a second. Like again, incredibly long tenured executive who has had great teams before, who's gotten to the. Had a team get to the finals before.

[Rob Mahoney]

What year did he get hired?

[Big Woz]

I want to say, because he was already the GM in Seattle. Yeah.

[Justin Barrier]

2004.

[Big Woz]

2007 is the Durant draft.

[Rob Mahoney]

2007.

[Justin Barrier]

He was 28 years old, I believe, when he got the job.

[Rob Mahoney]

Jesus Christ. Wow. He got. Wait, he got hired to be the GM at 28?

[Justin Barrier]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

This Presti stuff is making a lot of sense, y' all.

[Justin Barrier]

We, we got the blog at 28, so. Yeah, we did.

[Rob Mahoney]

Same blog and pod.

[Big Woz]

You know, everyone's journey is a little bit different. Sam Presti's journey has been very impressive. One of the best and most accomplished executives in the league otherwise has won, has seen teams win everything there is to win but this. And so it would be an incredible crowning achievement. And I think as a counterpoint to that, if he's an executive who has that kind of tenure, who has great teams but the team never wins at all, that's the kind of thing that sort of hangs over you. Not to dispatch, disparage any of the teams that he's built, any of what it took to get to this point. But like the winning separates you, it distinguishes you. It's why anyone is doing this. And I think as an executive specifically, you just like are living and dying with this shit in a totally different way because it's kind of out of your hands. Like you have put the pieces in play, you were watching to see what they do. And now either those decisions are going to be validated with a title, or they're not.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, Presti is. Is interesting because to me, to my mind, he's already a made guy. I think most people accept that he's the best GM in the NBA. I like, I think he's just, he's just a made guy in that way. And I don't want to get controversial, but I just think, like, you don't the next step for sure, even after he wins an okc, people are going to be like, do it where it matters. Like, go to an actual big market, put your big boy pants on where you don't get to be anonymous and that kind of shit. And yeah, that's what I think the.

[Justin Barrier]

Next step would be winning the regular season. Winning the playoffs, win in the finals, winning the draft, winning free agency, then.

[Rob Mahoney]

Winning a different market, winning the city that matters.

[Big Woz]

One would argue it's even more difficult to win in Oklahoma City than in a bigger market. But, you know, that's a. That's a conversation for a different day, I guess.

[Rob Mahoney]

Tomato, tomato. That doesn't even apply, but I still use it. Look, the thing is like with Theo Epstein where he's like, yo, I did it in Boston. Watch what I do for the cursed ass Cubs and then won a World Series there. That's what I'm saying. The next step would be like, all right, we get it. You know, you, you did your thing in okc. You became a made man, untouchable, unfairable, all of that stuff. You want a championship or two. Built a beautiful situation over there now. You know what I mean? Go do a serious job. It's almost like when coaches have to leave college and prove themselves in the pros. You feel me?

[Big Woz]

There's almost like I do not feel that way. No, the Thunder are not college and the Knicks or whatever are not the pros.

[Justin Barrier]

Competitive do when they win too much. Do seek out the new challenge. So I think it, it could happen.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's what I'm saying. Like the, like the new challenge or whatever. Like, yo, like, if I do this, this will really take my profile to an entire another level.

[Big Woz]

Yeah, I think the new challenge at the point whenever Sam Presti is ready for a new challenge is like lean into his jazz drumming career or something like that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, you don't go on tour with James Dolan.

[Big Woz]

Okay, there you go. I wouldn't recommend that for literally anyone.

[Justin Barrier]

Mashmay didn't have any right there.

[Big Woz]

I think we just figured out you need a hundred. Speaking of things, you need $100 million for paying the drummer for JD in the straight shot. Like, you really got to make it worth that person's time.

[Justin Barrier]

We don't have JD but we do have Junior, So hit it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Zay. Sleep at the wheel.

[Justin Barrier]

Oh, last one. All right, predictions, fellas. Who you got? Was you want to go first?

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay. Seeing six, I know a lot of people think that Pacers are going to get smoked or smacked. I really do think they're going to play. There'll be games where they play well and probably even pull them out, but I don't think they can. They're going to win this series. I think they're going to be again, they're going to play better than people expect them to. They've been underrated. Disrespected the entire playoffs. They've outplayed expectations the whole time through. And I think they will outplay expectations again in this series, but ultimately lose.

[Big Woz]

I agree with a lot of that. I think the only differentiating point for me is I think the Thunder will win in five. I think it'll be five pretty competitive games. I think it'll be feisty. I think the Pacers will play well. I just think, and forgive me for repeating myself from our previous predictions, the most dominant force in these playoffs is the Thunder defense. No one has proven able to crack it. Even Nikola Jokic struggled mightily trying to break down this exact thing. For all of the respect I have for the Pacers and the way that they operate and what they've created and Tyrese Halliburton and the whole deal, I'm on the record substantially, please. I just don't think they have this much in them because I don't know who does at this point.

[Rob Mahoney]

You hear that, Indiana? Rob Mahoney's answer is no, sir.

[Big Woz]

Nope. Wow.

[Justin Barrier]

No, sir.

[Big Woz]

How would we feel if the Thunder busted out? That. That is a shirt. If you had a no, sir playoff.

[Rob Mahoney]

I would love it.

[Justin Barrier]

I want the Thunder shirts have been. I have been bad.

[Rob Mahoney]

Stepped on the Ant or whatever for his Converse commercial after the series. You ain't see that? No Converse put out. What happened? We're like, there's an ant. And it's like, oh, you're quiet now. Ant and whatever. And they made fun of Aunt Edwards. I love that. I'm looking forward to the next time these two play again.

[Justin Barrier]

Fortunately, nobody saw it, so. Yeah, I agree with Rob. I really wish that picking a team in five games wasn't tantamount to calling the opponent, like, just a total piece of shit. Like, it's five. It just feels like the work equivalent to like, okay, no, like punctuation. If you don't put an exclamation on everything, it's just like, what's wrong with you? That is what it feels like. Depict a team in five.

[Big Woz]

First of all, the number of times that Justin Barrier will send you an okay, no punctuation. It's.

[Justin Barrier]

That's not true. I punctuate the hell out of those replies, my friend. I know how to work in an office environment. There's anything. I know it is how to communicate on slack to hide my actual feelings about people. Let me tell you, you're not.

[Big Woz]

You're not hiding your feelings as much as you think you are.

[Justin Barrier]

I think I'm doing just fine Rob Mahoney. I also have OKC in five, but in parentheses. I'm sorry. I do respect the Pacers for all the guy. All the reasons that we've talked about.

[Rob Mahoney]

I got a lot of respect for them.

[Justin Barrier]

We love to respect the Pacers. It's one of our favorite things. If OKC does indeed win, they would become the fifth team in NBA history. Fourth since the merger. 68 wins plus a title. Can you guys name technically the two other teams? Because it was one team doing it twice and then a third team.

[Big Woz]

So 68 wins and a title since the NBA ABA merger.

[Justin Barrier]

Yep. Bulls were two of them.

[Rob Mahoney]

The warriors won 68 games for the first 2014-15.

[Big Woz]

They did win.

[Justin Barrier]

They. They lost. When. When they broke the record.

[Rob Mahoney]

So they don't year before they won 67 games, not 68.

[Big Woz]

I think they won 67 games.

[Justin Barrier]

Okay, so in the same ballpark.

[Big Woz]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Was it The Lakers, the first 69 and 13 team?

[Justin Barrier]

Sure was. Will.

[Rob Mahoney]

68 games one time, way before the merger.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Big Woz]

Oh, okay. But we're so we're still missing one other team.

[Rob Mahoney]

Did not win 68 games.

[Justin Barrier]

I believe there was a Celtics team that won 68 games that lost.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, wow.

[Justin Barrier]

Yes. So we're talking M.J. bowles twice, Wilton, Jerry West, Lakers. If you want to include the Sixers in their pre merger, Sixers did it as well. And your young upstart nerd ass Oklahoma City Thunder.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's go.

[Big Woz]

Asterisk, possibly, maybe if they win.

[Rob Mahoney]

Larry o' Brien making a trip to the prairie, huh? You heard it first.

[Justin Barrier]

Will Woz make a trip to the prairie?

[Big Woz]

No, it's not happening.

[Rob Mahoney]

About time and a half, huh?

[Big Woz]

Wow. Wow. Uncalled for.

[Justin Barrier]

Well, maybe when we do a world podcast tour, we can take a look at the title. If it makes it there.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, yeah, we'll figure it out.

[Justin Barrier]

That's it for us. We'll be back after game one on Thursday. Knight. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We will talk to you.