D (4:47)

The Ringer NBA show is presented by FanDuel. FanDuel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you could build the bet that fits your play. Plus don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com RingerMBA to get started. 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut this episode is brought to you by Brooks Running Brooks reminds us that we're all powered by something from the me time energy of a run after a workday, the electric energy felt on a race day starting line, or the effectious energy of a group run with your friends. Brooks makes gear designed to unleash your energy, whether it's the feel good distraction Freak Ghost, the supercharged Hyperion Max or the fan favorite Adrenaline. Because at the end of the day, one step has the power to change everything. Let's run there. Head to brooksrunning.com to learn more.

C (5:52)

Four weeks Logan. It's a long freaking time in the NBA and in this case there are so minimum 16 games count from four four weeks from today, minimum 16 games that they're without Jokic. That's a lot of games in a four week span, by the way. So it's heavy on games and it's also 10 of those 16 are on the road, but it's kind of soft in terms of the opponents. So they are two games into a seven game trip right now. They have Toronto, Cleveland here in Brooklyn. I'll go see them. I think that's Sunday, Philly and Boston. So not, not, not a, not a murderer's row on that road trip. But it's still seven game road trips, a seven gate road trip. They're home for a couple of games against Atlanta, Milwaukee. They're on the road again at New Orleans and Dallas. Again not world beaters here, home against Washington, Charlotte and the Lakers and then they're at Washington, Milwaukee and Memphis. So like not a lot of brutal teams in there. A lot of like middling to bad teams in there. Like they could stay afloat potentially. But like you don't. Jokic isn't your typical like star player that you miss and you're like, oh, we'll just find scoring elsewhere. That dude is the hub of everything. So look, the good news is Aaron Gordon and Christian Brown, who've been out for quite a while here, are both potentially coming back somewhere during this road trip. David Adelman, the coach, had said that the other day. So they may get at least two starters back soon. And the other good news is like they made a really great off season move, one that I still don't understand from the king side of it, where they traded Dario Sarich for Jonas Valencunas. And Jonas Valentudas is a starting caliber center who was playing short minutes behind Jokic and he can handle a lot. Gordon can play centered small ball lineups. He has done that a lot. I think they can weather this. Logan. And they're 22 and 10. They're in third in the west. The precarious part is that the west is the west, right? Like they're only a game behind the spurs for, for second, five and a half behind the Thunder for first. But they're only one game ahead of Houston and the Lakers. They're only three games up on the seventh spot, which is Phoenix right now. Like, if things go badly without Jokic, they could be in playing range before he gets back.

B (8:05)

Yeah, that's true. I mean, but it's also. They also have Jamal Murray playing like an all Star right now, which is something that we should add to that point. He's averaging 25 a game, seven assists. He, if all goes right, if they just go just a little bit above average during that stretch, they can hold down the fort. If they even, you know, maybe bump down to maybe a five seed and just hold, hold the line there, they'll be in good shape. It'll be a, a relatively normal nugget season in terms of record by the time he gets back and then they can go on a run. We don't know when he's going to come back. The other thing that is interesting here is you say he's gonna miss maybe what, 16 games potentially.

C (8:45)

I mean, 16 is the minimum that.

B (8:47)

Gets at least right weeks. Yeah, that would put him out of the. No, but what I'm saying is that'll take him out of the award running and if he's going for. Which means, you know, my MVP pick for Wimby is suddenly looking better again.

C (9:01)

I think five game buffer himself right now.

B (9:04)

We're riding away. Hey, we're still here though. We're still here though. But I'm curious, see what the Nuggets do here, right? Because this is, it's frustrating because this was in a lot of ways the revenge season or maybe the reminder season that, that they wanted to have. Like, hey, we are the Nuggets and we are going to try and we are here. You guys forgot about us. We gave you A preview of this during our series against okc, but we've retooled. We've gotten rid of Michael Porter. We flipped him for Cam Johnson. We've. We've.

C (9:34)

Cam also out, by the way.

B (9:36)

Cam also out. But I'm saying they're going into the season thinking, hey, we're going to be. This is the deepest team we've had in years, since our championship run. We can make a real run out of it. And the other thing is, you're not accounting for Jokic being out. Not because. Because you just don't want to do that for a superstar. Not only because of that, but also he doesn't miss time. Say what you want about big men and, you know, getting hurt, but he's not one of those people. This is probably going to be the longest absence that he's ever had in his career, and he's just been this pillar of consistency for this organization, and this is a big moment for this organization to hold down the fort for him. And, you know, Adelman's done a great job. I always compare the Nuggets a little bit to the spurs, not necessarily in terms of. Of wins, but in terms of stability over a long stretch. Right. The stability around one guy and a guy that, you know, they're always in the mix. No matter what their record is, no matter what they're doing in March, you can kind of pencil them into contention for the conference finals and beyond because of one guy, and they just got to hold down the fort, and we'll see what this month is going to happen. That's a big ask. But with you, what you said, with the record and also the people coming back in the lineup and also Jamal Murray playing well, Jamal Murray, if you want that All Star, you better go on this heater for this next month, and that's going to be the recipe to stay afloat for this team. And thank God they're playing all those Eastern Conference teams.

C (11:08)

Great call. Great call. And Jamal Murray, who we shouted out last week for. For the season he's having. Anyway, this is a moment for him, right? Here's a guy who is the reigning title holder of best player never to be all NBA or an All Star, and he absolutely should get it this time. But also, yeah, these next few weeks, while balloting is still going on, are going to be really critical for that, because if he really steps into the void there and keeps the Nuggets afloat, wins some games, just, you know, becomes that leader that he needs to be, that's only going to bolster his All Star case. Whether that's in the balloting by the fans and media and players or whether that's in the reserve balloting by the coaches, he should get in there. You know, I think the Nuggets, we know if they're a hole in the play, as long as they still are in the play in the playoffs, like, no one's going to want to face them, right? No matter how far they slip, I think we can count the idea that the Nuggets are still going to be one of the best teams in the NBA when the spring arrives, if Jokic is back fully healthy and everything else, however far they slip in the standings, they're like they're not going to fall out entirely, right? So there's that part. But man, I failed to do the math because I still don't accept in principle this stupid 65 game rule. And it's not stupid. Like, I get why they wanted to do it, but man, if Jokic is now going to potentially be ineligible to win mvp when at the moment he went down, he was the, arguably the leader for mvp. And we've had multiple years here where it's either it's Jokic and Giannis, it's Jokic and Embiid, it's Jokic and Shai neck and neck. And it's just, it's sometimes it's a coin flip or it's a preference thing, or it's one little advanced stat that you chose this way versus that way and now it's going to be, nope, he's not even on the ballot, he's off the board. The best player on the planet is going to like and it may just be because he misses exactly 18 games or something and is just over the threshold. And I've always said the problem with the 65 game rule is some point, maybe as soon as this season, someone who's only played 64 games is going to have had a way better season than somebody who played 65 or 66. But we're going to have to give it to the other guy. So I don't know. It's a bummer all the way around. It's, you know, obviously a bummer for, for Jokic, for Nuggets fans, everybody else, but let's hope he gets back sooner than later. I will just note one other quick tweet from Dr. Brian Suterer, who again, somebody who chimes in a lot of, of sports injuries and, you know, the NBA in particular, he said that it suggests that there's Some moderate bone bruising that needs time to heal. So that's when you say just hyperextension without telling us what the injury is and four weeks to be reevaluated. He's saying it suggests moderate bone bruising that needs time to heal. But great to hear. Ligaments are good and this was best case scenario. So that's from Brian Suterer, M.D.

B (14:07)

I would just like to say really quickly, like when, when we talk about injury reports, it's not just. And the accuracy of injury reports, it's not just for the media. Like, I mean, you don't have to care about us necessarily, but it's also your fan base. Right. There's a lot of people in Denver right now who's like, when is my favorite player going to be back? We want to strive for a title. Can you give us some transparency here? Like the Vegas who cares about the.

C (14:31)

Road when they're, when they're traveling and, and you're looking down at the schedule like, oh, I bought tickets to see Jokic play the one time in my town. Is he gonna make it or not? And also you've got all the gambling that goes on and all the fantasy sports and everything else that goes on. Like, people deserve more transparency than what the NBA is giving them.

B (14:48)

Yeah, it's not even just that. It's. I think it's also, it's. It's. It's NBA, but it's also individual teams. Because I want, I don't want to blanket and say that all teams don't. Aren't transparent with their injuries and, and reevaluations and all these things, but it would just behoove you to be a little bit more transparent with yourself. Not even for us, like, forget us on in this context for your fan base, for people that are buying tickets for your bottom line and, and your organizational bottom line. Let's take a quick break and we're going to go to New Year's resolutions. That's for you, Connor. I know you recorded. You're seeing this recording. That's for you. Man got into a break. The Ring NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. This NBA season on FanDuel, it's all about the boost. Because game days mean your chance to boost your bet and make every play pay off. That's right. All customers get a 25% same game parlay and parlay profit boost. Let's take a look at the slate, huh? Sixers, Grizzlies. I think I'm going to take the Grizzlies on this one just to make one particular person mad for the Celtics. Jazz, I think I'm going to take the over and I think I'm going to take the Celtics in that matchup. Pistons Lakers. That looks interesting. LeBron's 41st birthday. I think of the over on points for LeBron and I think the Pistons take it. The games never stop and with FanDuel, you've got more ways to make every win even bigger. So lock in on your bets, boost your odds and make every night count with FanDuel. Official sports betting partner of the NBA must be 21 years and older and present in select states or 18 and older and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issues non withdrawable profit boost tokens Restrictions apply including any token, aspiration, expense and max wager amount. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling prom call 1-800-gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org backslash chat in Connecticut.

D (16:47)

Your ambition just met its match with Robinhood. You play for the win. Not just on game day. Every day channel that drive into your money. Trade stocks and ETFs, options and futures all on one platform. You expect more from yourself, expect more from your money. Get started today@robinhood.com yourmoney your money. Your move investing is risky. Securities trading is offered through Robinhood Financial LLC member sipc, a registered broker dealer. Future trading is offered by Robinhood Derivatives LLC and not Spic or FDIC protected.

B (17:17)

So good, so good, so good. New Year New gear. Thousands of fresh active styles are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Save on top brands like Nike, Puma and free people starting at just $35. How did I not know Rack has Adidas?

C (17:33)

There's always something new.

B (17:34)

Plus join the Nordy Club to shop.

C (17:36)

New arrivals first unlock exclusive discounts and more.

B (17:40)

Great brands, great prices. That's why you Rack and we are back. Okay, so yesterday or in the weeks leading up to this podcast, I was just saying this is going to be a New Year's resolution episode. And you know Howard, as you guys can, you know, probably figure out had a lot of questions for it. What kind of resolution? What are we doing? Who are the what is this for? What subject matter can we get into? And I said there was no rules to this. We literally do whatever you want as long as it pertains to basketball. It's the only rule. And I'm even going to I have ones that are set up in. Victoria and Cliff are going to be very annoyed with me. But I'm adding a couple New Year's resolutions and one of them came to mind when you were talking in the last segment and that is doing away with this 65 game threshold threshold for awards. Okay. Because like perfect example, Jokic right now, MVP is supposed to be the best, not only the best player of the season, but the player that really defined the season with his excellence. Right. And if you put, not only for MVP, but if you put, if you put the 65 game rule in there, it takes away a lot of the nuance of what that is. Right. The guy that defined it, the guy that is, has been the one. That's why I thought that Jokic should have won last year because I felt like when you go back and look at that year, you're going to think about all of the performances, the individual performances that Jokic had. Right. And I know I've disagreed with a lot of people, but that's my critique of this or my criteria for it. Excuse me. And I think that not only are you messing with the awards and the history of your league, you're also trying to take money out of your players pockets. Right? Like there's a lot of things that has to do, you know, with all NBA and things like that. And I know that this is a. The load management issue has been a problem, but there has to be another way because the 65 game rule, if you have to look at it, hasn't really been fruitful for kind of anyone involved with it. Right. Like it hasn't necessarily like kept players on the floor. It hasn't. It hasn't. Has it done everything that you wanted it to do? I don't want to get a big word salad in here, but I don't think that it has really succeeded in the way that Adam Silver has wanted it to succeed. And we're going to talk about other ideas that haven't succeeded later in the program, but this is one of them. Let's just do away with it, right? Let's do it.

C (20:12)

It listen.

B (20:14)

Or maybe push it down, right? Maybe like 55 games.

C (20:18)

The difficulty, Logan, is we are in a time of load management, player rest and medical staffs control most of this stuff. It's usually not the players who are opting to not play, right. They would. Most players would just say screw it, I want to go out there. It's the medical staffs who are erring on the side of caution because these guys make a gazillion dollars now. And they are a really massive investment. And you are also trying to look out for their longevity and for the team success in the postseason and all these other factors. And so the league is trying to incentivize the players and the teams to play as much as possible. Right. That's the point of the 65 game rule. If you go through the history of awards, I don't recommend anybody do this. You might be bored very quickly, but we, the media who vote on most of these awards have not generally rewarded a lot of guys who coming under that 65 game mark anyway. This is kind of an unofficial standard that we've all collectively employed over decades. It's always mattered, just unofficially. We didn't need a rule, but they needed a. So the rule wasn't for us. The rule was for the players. They needed to give them a hard and fast barrier there where it's like do not drop below this. Or you're missing out on awards, you're missing out on, on, on some legacy items. You're missing out potentially on, on bonuses, whatever it may be. But I don't think it has changed a lot of behavior, frankly. The NBA is going to immediately push back and hopefully they don't like, you know, slamming a tweet like they did to the athletic a week ago. But maybe they have data that says this has changed behavior. I don't know that we have seen a major impact of the 65 game rule in the way that they had hoped. If you've got the data, the NBA, I'm sure you'll reach out and let me know kindly, diplomatically.

B (22:03)

Well, they can ask you on Twitter. You ain't never going to see it.

C (22:05)

And I won't because I'm not on Twitter. Haha. Hit me on Blue Sky NBA. Actually, they're there too, just not the PR account. Yeah, anyway, enough on the 65 game rule. But like, I'm with you on that one. We should just note, by the way, real quick because yes, we did have a text back and forth where I was saying, well, what do we mean by resolutions? Because this is, this is the way my brain functions. Like these are our resolutions, but not for ourselves. We don't need to improve ourselves. We're great, we're fine. It's the NBA that needs improving. So these are our resolutions. We're kind of like putting this in their head. Like we would like the league to make the resolution to get rid of the 65 game rule along with some other things here. But so that's kind of the exercise. It's more like it's almost a wish list as much as.

B (22:50)

Okay, yeah, look at, look at. Look at Howard pandering to the audience.

C (22:54)

I'm just letting them know what we're doing here. I just don't.

B (22:57)

They'll be all right. They listening. They're like, okay, hey, let's get to the next resolution. Okay, what is your resolution? I have a couple others, but it's your turn now.

C (23:04)

Number one. Also at the league level, this one's for Adam Silver. Stick with an All Star Game format, Adam, bro, just pick one and stick with it. It doesn't. If it doesn't immediately click with fans, it's okay. Give it time. Because the lurching from one thing to the next and this now what looks like in retrospect, just desperate throwing against the wall every year trying to revive it. It looks worse when you're constantly changing. If you stuck with one thing, maybe people would eventually kind of like accept that, oh, this is actually an improvement over the past. Here's what we A quick review, folks. 2018, they first bring in the playground draft kind of thing, but. But they didn't do it out in front of everybody. They did it in private. So Steph and LeBron were the captains that year. They drafted their teams out of the.

B (23:50)

All Star, missed out on a ratings.

C (23:51)

Bonanza, but they fixed that the next year, 2019, Giannis and LeBron were the captains and they drafted live on TNT. And it was fucking great. It was awesome. We had a blast that same year, though. The game was kind of a dud. Adam and Chris Paul, who was at that time was president of the players association, had a conversation, said, you know what, we need to fix this. We need to do something. We need to incentivize players more. So they brought in a bunch of different ideas, including playing for charity and some other mechanisms. And then they did the Elam mending, which was the target score in the fourth quarter thing. The game was great in 2020 in part because of the Elam ending. It charged it up, it worked. It was great. A couple more cycles and the Elamending wasn't making the game any better and the game was a dud again. So in 2024, out of the blue, they killed the Elame ending, but they also killed the playground style draft. They scrapped the live draft, which had been. Everybody loved it, fans loved it, media loved it.

B (24:48)

Some players, it's content for your league.

C (24:50)

Yeah, like it was. It was uncomfortable for some players. There were some moments but like man up, tough shit. It, it was fine. It was fun for everybody else. Adam never should have killed that one. He never adequately explained why they did 20, 25 this past February they go to the tournament style with two semis and a final. I will tell you from my vantage point in the arena that night, especially the two early earlier games, the two semis, right, they were actually good because it was.

B (25:18)

The games weren't the problem though. The games were the problems. It was the 35 minute toast to TNT that was the problem.

C (25:26)

We had two problems. One was TNT's self indulgence. And I say this with all respect.

B (25:32)

Like I, I, we're both good employees of Turner. We've both been employees of Turner. I love all those people.

C (25:36)

We all love Chuck and Shaq and Ernie and Kenny. And they deserved their moment. It was too long of a moment and it shouldn't have been in the middle of the fucking game. Like it was just bad programing. It was not the problem wasn't the game itself or the series of games. And the other problem by the way, Kevin Hart. So like they didn't give that enough of a chance on its own and now they changed it again. It's still a tournament but now we're doing world versus US with a confusing process where we're still voting east and west and we're not voting world and US players, we're voting east and west. And then the league has to figure out do we have enough international guys for the eight man international team and then two eight man squads of us born players. And if there's not enough of one or the other then they're going to add and there will be more than 24 all stars so that they can get this right. Like there's just too many variables now. It's, it's made it more confusing again. They're still doing a tournament. So like I guess to the extent that I thought it sort of worked last year, minus Kevin Hart, minus TNT's you know, halftime, you know, thing, it like they're still trying the tournament thing and I still think that's good because putting a, a time limit on these games that is shorter. I think these are 12 minute games. That's the right idea. It needs to be short and sweet and with an intensity that, that, that ratchets up because we don't have four quarters of just throwing alley oops and dicking around. We have to actually play. If you want to win this thing, you got a really short span. Let's go. So anyway I'm good with the new thing, the voting process and everything else and how they're going to get the rosters done. It's still annoying. It's too many steps. But the tournament itself, I think shows promise. It's better than the old All Star Game. I'm good with that. I would still rather have the live draft that we had. But whatever happens, whatever happens, however this goes, however much Kevin Hart tries to screw the whole thing up, just stick with this NBA. If it doesn't work, if the fans, if there's backlash, fine, fine it. Do it again next year until it sticks. Just stop lurching from one thing to the next. Okay? Resolution and sermon.

B (27:42)

Hey, man, let K. Hart get his checks, bro. Let him get his checks, man.

C (27:47)

If not for the NBA, would Kevin Hart still the NBA? And whatever the commercials he's in, doing the Home Alone Kevin thing, like, without.

B (27:55)

I don't know Kevin Hart. I don't know Kevin Hart. All I do know is he has never turned down. He don't turn down checks. He's doing everything. He's gonna be everywhere, everywhere, all at once. What was the movie? He's. He's that movie.

C (28:06)

I don't blame Kevin Hart. I blame. I blame Turner for the NBA for constantly involving him in everything. Inexplicably.

B (28:13)

Yes, we know he's from Philly, Cliff. We understand Cliff. Okay, couple, couple, couple couple points to that one. This is the thing I think about the, The All Star Game in general. Like fans, when they come, they don't want a homework assignment going into this. They don't want. And I said this last year in the live show, like, they don't want a homework assignment. They don't want to be like, oh, they. They want to copy and paste. They know that this is going to be the. The. They know that this is going to be not necessarily as competitive as it should be. The people that are watching, they are watching to see the spectacle of their favorite players playing basketball now. And they're. And the thing that is been a criticism of Adam Silver throughout a lot of people in the league is that he's a terminally online commissioner that wants to please everyone. That is always the critique. If you go down sidelines, pre game everywhere, that is everything that you hear about him and this constant push and pull and always trying to crowdsource and get all of these opinions in a room, that's what you get. You get one year where you're doing a player draft, then someone gets in your ear about, you know, this isn't that good, right? You know, you are. Read all the tweets and then you go and you pivot and you pivot and you pivot. I think Adam Silver honestly just needs a, a little bit of constructive fu in him. Like, he needs to, it's a little inner David Stern just a little bit, right? Like, stop listening to so many people. Listen to your gut. Listen right here, Right here. And that's my, that's my critique of Adam Silver. And that's the reason why, like, All Star Weekend has been just so many data points. And so, bro, we just want to watch hoop. We really just want to watch hoop. Like dog. And here's the other thing. Before all of these changes, and you know this because you've been covering the league a long time, the All Star Game would just go in ebbs and flows, right? Like, whether it be the dunk contest being in vogue or whether it be the three point contest being in vogue, and then whether it, you know, it's built on moments, in my opinion, more than it's built on structure, right? Like, the 03 All Star Game was great because it was Mike's last one, right? The 92 one was great because Magic's last one, right? And one of the things, I think with all these data points and all these things that are going on, and I don't even know if he's how they're going to get him into the All Star Game, but, like, how are we going to give LeBron his true moment when it's in a tournament fashion, right? Like, and especially other guys like that. I'm more of a traditionalist in this sense. I didn't even really see nothing really wrong with the game, right? Like, I, I, I did like the additive of the, the picks and like the playground structure. But I like a game, like, some years it's going, it's, it's more the competitiveness comes from the players, not necessarily the format. The reason why. Hold on one second. I know you got a long winded thing. Hold on one second. I'm good. I'm going to land the plank.01, which is generally considered the greatest All Star game of the 2000s. The reason why that was so competitive was because of the players. It was because you had Kevin Garnett saying, we're gonna play hard. It's because you had Allen Iverson saying, we're gonna play hard because you had Kobe and Shaq saying, okay, we're gonna turn it on when it's time. We're gonna give them a Show the reason why it's not as competitive is because you don't have the guys that are or the guys that would say it's competitive or want to get it to petitive are either aging out or they're just not there. Like Jaylen Brown and Jason Tatum aren't saying, let's go guys, let's kick their ass. Right? You know who is though? Wimby. Wimby is like, yo, we are going to make this. I am competitive at all times. And that, and I think that that was part of the ebb and flow. But I don't think that the format honestly is going to make that. It's going to be right here. It's going to be the players that are involved because you could have all the formats that you want to have. But if somebody's in the corner, like, I don't give a fuck about this game, then you're still even in a tournament. Even in a tournament format, you're still going to have non competitive basketball. So it has to be the. It's on the players in this instance, in my opinion.

C (32:24)

All true. It's always been on the players. But the trick of the All Star game is everybody knows going in this is just a silly exhibition at the end of a long weekend where they put these guys just through the grinder. They've had to do a gazillion appearances, I want to say had to do. A lot of these are also optional. It's like the players doing their capitalists here. Yeah, but by Sunday evening of All Star Weekend, everybody just wants to go home. So that's part of this too. And All Star Weekend wasn't quite as packed or chaotic or insane or as corporatized back in the day. So guys were, I think, a little fresher by Sunday. Now they're just burned out and want to. And by the way, because maybe a.

B (33:05)

Little fresher maybe, you know, depending on the city.

C (33:08)

You know, All Star break used to just be basically like everybody stopped playing on like Thursday or maybe stop playing on Wednesday. They had a travel day Friday, Saturday, Sunday was All Star. And then everybody had to be back for practice by like Monday afternoon. Adam was the one who decided to make this a full week. So the other thing is like everybody else who's not in part of All Star Weekend, they're just like full week off or not maybe entirely because like they, you know, at some point later in the week during the All Star break, they have to report back for practice. But the All Stars themselves are like sitting around Going like, okay, it's an honor to be here. It's great. But like, damn, my teammates are on an island somewhere.

B (33:42)

But. But here's the other thing, though. They still get that. Also, I've covered teams with multiple All Stars. They get their two days in Cabo, too. They still get their two days.

C (33:52)

But their, Their. Their teammates got five days in Cabo and the All Stars had to wait till Sunday until this stupid All Star game is over, basically. Like, I don't mean to say it's stupid. That's how I think some of them feel about it. They're just trying to get through it without being injured and to get on a plane to a tropical island somewhere.

B (34:10)

So I think that, that. I think that that's been the problem, though, with not only in. Not only in NBA, but I think sports in general, as I think that the. From a player standpoint, there is a. At least been a stagnation in the mindset of we need each other to grow this game. Like, if you go look at, if you talk to stars of today versus you talk about the stars of yesteryear, Magic is always like, yo, we're trying to grow this league. We're trying to grow this league. We're trying to do this now. It's like, these stars are like, oh, I don't really need any of this. I got my money. I'm good. I don't really. Like, there's. There's a difference in mindset on how to grow the league, and I feel like there's a stagnation there. I think NBA is the poster child for that right now, because I think MLB is. If you look at mlb, they're growing at a rapid pace. NFL is just a machine. But the NBA in particular, the players and the people involved are like, it feels like growing the game is beneath them. And I think you see that in the All Star format right now in terms of the. In terms of the mindset going into the weekend, because this is how you sell your league with these types of events.

C (35:16)

Yeah. So let me wrap up this. This Item this way. 1. I agree with all of that. I have a longer version of that that I will. I will save for another day or for some offline conversations with people. But like that. I absolutely believe that that's a thing. I don't think that they have quite as much of a sense of duty to the game and promoting and growing the game, because the game is now such a juggernaut. The league is such a juggernaut, and they are Making such incredible money just, you know, a ridiculous proportion more than what their predecessors did. Right. So it's, it's, there's, there's less of a sense of needing to do that. And I kind of get that. So when it comes to the All Star game, the fact is like the league is committed to this, right? This is an old construct, maybe it should just be done away with. But they're never going to do away with it. It's a corporate event, it's the sponsors event and all this stuff. So you have to trick yourself into thinking it matters. And the reason that I liked the tournament style and the reason I liked some of the other features that they had applied in previous versions of changing it up was if you make the game shorter, if you put other stakes online, like with the charities, you're trying to give them something else to grasp onto. So you can forget for a moment that this is ultimately a meaningless exhib. And when younger people especially push back and say like hey old man, why do you even care about this? We just like seeing all the dunks and like, you know, half court threes and shit. If you go back and it's older players feel the same as some of us older media, like that 2001 game Logan was referring to like the Iverson and Marbury ended up in this amazing duel. Guys tried hard and usually it was the fourth quarter where it amped up. But even, even from get even from jump like if you look at those games, did they feel like a regular season game with real stakes or a playoff game? No, of course not. And no one is asking for that. But there was a little bit more attempt to actually stop each other. And if you don't play any defense at all, then none of it really like any, you know, these are, these are world class basketball players. Of course they can get off shots from anywhere at any time and throw alley oops and stuff. We already know they can do that. The trick of the game and why the NBA is fun is can you do it when someone's trying to stop you? So anyway, I do think that shorter games and other measures that you could that where you amp up the stakes from minute to minute. It can trick the, your, your, the psyche of the player into trying harder. So yes Logan, you're right, it's on the players. But I think format does matter and can cater to that. So anyway, what's your second resolution?

B (37:40)

My second resolution is, and this is not going to be a surprise to you, but we need to embrace the youth movement that's going on in the NBA at this moment. Right. And I say that not only just as like from a consumer standpoint, but from a league standpoint. I think that right now we are caught in the middle of two, two generations. Obviously there's the Kevin Durant, the LeBron James, the Steph Curry of it all. And then that brings up this question of what is it going to be like when these people are gone. Right. We continue to see this has been a storyline over the last couple of seasons, right. But in the midst of that, I think we're missing the point here where we have so many young, exciting superstars right now. And I think we're starting to see that this season, the gravitational pull to them. But I think we need to, instead of yearning for yesteryear and yearning for the nostalgia and like, what is going to happen when, you know, all these people leave? Are we going to have a league? I think we need to, I think we need to transition that into thinking, yo, man, the league is in good hands with all of these different people. And I, I think even just how we see the game and how we look at the game, because we're at a point right now in this season and I think the divide is, is very striking. Like the team's led by Steph, by. Well, there's not a team led by LeBron at this point. Right. But the team's led by Steph and the teams led by kd, who was kind of like a. He's, he's the, I don't know if he's the best player yet on that team. Maybe he is. Somebody's probably going to yell at me, but he isn't the priority of that organization, priority of that organization's future. But all of those guys and all those teams that they reside on aren't on paper at least beating the Oklahoma City Thunder in a seven game series, not beating the spurs in a seven game series, not beating the Nuggets necessarily in the seven game series if they were fully healthy. And I think now, like, and we saw it a little bit last year with the Pacers and Oklahoma City Thunder, but we just need to embrace this new movement and get to know these young guys because I really think the league is in such good hands with these young players from a marketing standpoint, from a game standpoint, and from an entertainment standpoint. And I don't want us to be stuck in the past. And that doesn't mean that we're not celebrating our legends because I absolutely think there's going to be a time and a place for that. But I think that we need to look at the Anthony Edwards and look at all these guys and look at them on that level if they are ready to take that mantle. Because it feels like right now we are in, we are approaching that 1998, 1999. Like Jordan feels like post apocalypse where we're like, well, where are all these players where all these things and you blind yourselves and you don't see the Tim Duncan's coming down the pike. Right. You don't see Kobe and Shaq that are coming down the pike. These superstars, these generational talents. And I think we can do a better job of just embracing this new culture then that's what I want to see. That's my vibes resolution for the league.

C (40:40)

Yeah, I mean I, I think the, the NBA has done what they can to lean into those guys, but they're certainly still right. Like Katie, LeBron and Steph were all on on Christmas for a reason, right?

B (40:51)

Like, yeah.

C (40:52)

And granted LeBron's on Christmas in part because Luke is on on Christmas or vice versa. Both of them would have been on if Luca were still a maverick, which he should be. I think the Mavericks and Lakers would have both been on and LeBron still would have been on. So I don't, I don't mean to diminish that, but there's a reason that LeBron and Steph and KD are still in all these marquee games and tentpole nights of the, of the NBA calendar. But they've, you know, look, they're certainly doing their best to make sure that people know who Victor Wembanyama is. And Anthony Edwards has been, you know, you know, he's had his moment in the spotlight quite a bit in the last few years. The issue becomes because we're always chasing Jordan, right? Everything becomes a Jordan construct. You can't just be a great young player. You can't just be talented. You also got to win, and you got to win a lot and you got to win spectacularly. And you got to have a little bit of charisma to you too. Tim Duncan was one of the best players of all time and certainly one of the dominant players of his era. He was never the, quote, unquote, face of the league, whatever the phrase means, because he was Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan didn't want to be facing the league. Tim Duncan just wanted to like clock in, clock out, win some games, win some championships, hang some banners and then go like, work on some cars somewhere like he, he was not interested and.

B (42:13)

Occasionally do a real ones interview that you guys can go check out still. Can't that happen?

C (42:19)

How much arm twisting did that take? He did one with, with, with Richard Jefferson too, within the last year. But like, he wasn't doing that stuff. Like podcast didn't exist during his time, but he certainly wasn't doing that stuff during his own time. Like he didn't want anything to do with interviews or, or, or peeling back the curtain. Let anybody, anybody in on who Tim Duncan was. That was not his, his deal. So it takes everything. So I like your point is, is, I think, correct. I agree. But like, it has to happen organically and.

B (42:51)

Yeah.

C (42:51)

And I think these guys have to seize it and they have to want it.

B (42:54)

I think so. Yeah. And that is a really good point. I think also, like, one thing that I have been impressed with is like the apparatus around these young guys now. And I'm talking about this season when you talk about the new league partners and like their investment in storytelling about the league. And that's something that I've complained about in years past where it felt like we weren't at least. And I, and I know that it's, it's, it's winning, it's, it's, it's charisma, it's a whole thing. But I don't know up until like this season how good of a job the league was actually doing to promote. It's, it's young guys and like, telling their stories and like, having it. It felt like for a long time they were just like banking on the fact like, oh, yeah, we got Steph for, you know, 10 more years, we'll just bargain him. But it's like there's other guys here that we can, that we can market, that we can, that we can push, you know, push the agenda, if you will. I don't have a better word to say that, but I just, I think we should have more of that because at this point, the difference between a couple years ago and now is those stars are actually fading. And now that they are actually fading, it's time to like that OKC San Antonio, like, stretch was awesome. Awesome.

C (44:05)

It was like a mini playoff stretched over the course.

B (44:07)

I don't really. It made me think like, yo, Steph, yo, chill out. Yo, yo, just go sit right here. Watch with us. LeBron. Just come watch with us. Like, chill out. But it was great. And it was that, that was, that is what made me prompt this thought is like, there's, there's, there's a new era upon us. So, yeah, just invest in the youth. Is. Is my.

C (44:28)

The good news is, like, Wimy's going to be around for quite a while and so are Shay and Chet and J Dub. And you know, like, Wemby's got this great supporting cast growing around him with Castle and Dylan Harper and Dear and Fox. Like, these teams are gonna be around for a while. They're gonna play like, it's gonna be awesome. Like, we have not had a lot of true rivalries and they don't last long because the turnover is so fast in today's NBA. So, like, here's hoping. Look, two small market teams. I don't care where teams are located, like, as long as the players are great.

B (44:59)

And can you get a direct flight to okc? I hope that they can give us a redirect flight now that they're good again.

C (45:04)

You know what?

B (45:05)

The Bay Area, if we get.

C (45:06)

If they're in the finals enough years in a row, maybe eventually the airlines will start flying there.

B (45:11)

We'll get one at like 6am or something like that. Thank you.

C (45:14)

Oklahoma hates when we talk about this. Let's just shelve that.

B (45:17)

I was okay. My bad, my bad. San Antonio. Let me look right now.

C (45:20)

Is there any San Antonio you get to a little bit easier. Although San Antonio, Miami, those two finals were tough to bounce back and forth between anyway. No, look, we.

B (45:29)

We.

C (45:29)

There are some great young players in this league. The league's going to be fine. The league's in great hands. It'll be great. My next resolution, Logan. This one's kind of like for more than one party here. This is for Giannis and the Bucks together. I just want them to find happiness in 2026 with or without each other. Whatever it means, you know, like, it. It could just be like Giannis in the box looking at each other and saying, you know what? I still love you, but I'm not in love with you, you know? Wow.

B (45:59)

It was a good run. Yeah, we had a good run, you know.

C (46:02)

Right. Like, they'll always love each other. They'll always be each other's first. They won a championship together. They had some great memories.

B (46:09)

It ain't Valentine's Day back. It ain't Valentine's Day yet. Relax.

C (46:15)

But it, like, sometimes these things just run their course. And by the way, if it hasn't run its course and you actually decide to like, you know, renew your vows and stay together for the rest of time, I'm fine with that too. But figure it out, like, and.

B (46:30)

And I know they're that one couple in the corner that we're just, like, rolling our eyes at. Like, dog, what the, bro? Like, we're trying to have a good night here at this very beautiful Brooklyn restaurant, and you over here tripping right now, like, come on, figure it out. We love you both, but figure it out.

C (46:45)

I, I know the Bucks and Giannis are, are still love each other. I just think they've got a lot of issues to work out. There's a lot of passive aggressiveness going on and a lot of double dutching.

B (46:54)

A lot of in and out. Because here's the other thing. There's another thing that, that has, like, really, truly been fascinating to this to, like, to see. It's, it's not only. It's the reporting aspect, right? Like, it's the, you know, Giannis is talking to this person, but something is leaking to this person, right? And that information isn't coming from any. From nowhere is all I'm going to say, right? Like, it feels like a person that is speaking out of both sides of his mouth. It's, you know, is what it is.

C (47:24)

Let's, let's, let's be clear. The backdrop to all this, of course, is that, you know, whichever starting point you want to look at. But let's go to August of 2023, when Tanya Ganguly from the New York Times had the interview and the extensive story with Giannis in which he said, quote, winning a championship comes first. I don't want to be 20 years on the same team and don't win another championship. And he said versions of that at other points that year, and he has said versions of that since, including in the last couple of months and as recently as last week when he got testy with the reporter post game after his windmill dunk during garbage time. And then somebody asked, by the way, do you still see yourself here or whatever for long term? And he said it was a disrespectful question, blah, blah, blah. I mean, he could have just said, I'm going to be here for the rest of my career. We're going to figure this out. I'm not going anywhere. And he didn't say that. He just said, I'm here now. I'm here now. I'm wearing this jersey.

B (48:15)

I'm also fascinated about that, though, Howard. I'm fascinated by a player, not just Giannis, but, like, the player that is looking for greener pastures, right?

C (48:24)

Like, and it's, it's fair for, for stars of his caliber, Logan, to want to be on contending teams. And the point of this whole thing right now, from his standpoint and frankly from ours as the viewers, they're not a contending team. They are nowhere near being a contending team, and they do not have the supporting cast for them to be a contending team. I did this quickly earlier. Just look at the Ringer 100 list. Go to the top 10, top 15, top 20, aside from maybe Devin Booker, and even there, I'm not sure. Find me a star of Giannis, and by the way, Giannis is a caliber above Devin Booker, but find me a top 10 player, a top 15 player who has a worse supporting cast than Giannis Anadokumbo.

B (49:11)

We're going to talk about it. We're going to talk about it really quickly right after we get done with this subject, actually.

C (49:17)

So that's. You're going to be wrong. But I'm just saying, like, there's a, there's a reason. And by the way, he's still in his prime. He's 31. That matters here, too. He still has a lot of Runway left, but that Runway don't last forever. So it's fair for Giannis to be antsy about where things are. It's fair for him to potentially want out. But they do have to figure this out. It is becoming like this is tortures for Bucks fans. I hear from them plenty, I'm sorry, Bucks fans, that we're talking about this again. It's a, it's a thing. This is going to be resolved sometime this year. Either they traded by the trade deadline or they don't. They trade him in the off season or they don't or he. He signs an extension or he doesn't. But if he doesn't sign an extension, then the trade is almost automatic at that point because it means he's not, he's not committed long term. And I'm fascinated to see what the Bucks do between now and the trade deadline because they're sending signals across the league we are trying to build around him, not trade him. And if that's the case, I can't wait to see what they can pull off because they don't have a lot of tools to work with. But hey, like, they may shock us all. I, I'm completely open to that possibility. I hope it happens the last time, sometimes sometime in 2026. This. This is going to have to resolve.

B (50:30)

The last time they pulled a rabbit out the hat they took Dame, they traded for Damian Lillard, which is a complete surprise because the whole Summer, we were basically thinking that Dame was going to go to Miami. Remember that? Like, we, that was like, basically.

C (50:42)

I never thought, I never thought it was going to end up with Miami just because I thought they, that the Blazers were so dug in, but the Bucks was still a bit of a surprise.

B (50:49)

Yeah. I think the other thing that I've, that is just so fascinating to me for stars in, in Giannis's position is, okay, you, you want to go win a title. And I completely agree with that because, you know, you guys are competitive beings. You want that, that you want that accomplishment, it's a very rare one. But also, like, it ain't say you say he goes to the Knicks. It's never going to be the same as when you went to, when you were in Milwaukee. So you're weighing that, especially a guy like Giannis, who is Wayne, who continues to throw signals that he might want to go to New York. And also we don't know what the return is going to be. If he goes to New York, they might get the Knicks and might get fleeced in this way. Right? Like, I don't know. I just, I just don't know how it's going to happen. So they're thinking about that. And like, on one hand you're going to be a God if you stay your whole career in this other place, which you're not going to win the titles. And then you're, if you do trade away, you're gonna probably win a title, but it ain't gonna hit the same as if you want to won a title where you were from, especially when I'm talking about a player like Giannis. So I'm always fascinated by that. And I'm also. That leads to our next player, Mr. Steph Curry, which goes to my resolution, which is let's treat the Legends better on their way out. My goodness. You saw this is on the backdrop of the warriors winning three of their last four games. But I'm. It's from all intents and purposes, and you saw them last night, I haven't seen them in about a month. But the vibes are not great here. And a lot of that has to do with the roster construction around Steph Curry and the back nine of his career, pun intended, because he is a golfer. But they trade for Jimmy Butler, which honestly. And it, it worked out for the back stretch of last season. But I don't think in the all inter, I don't think in the totality of it, this deal has necessarily worked out. They, the warriors front office tried to win a negotiation with Jonathan Kaminga at all costs even if it costed them the rest of their roster building opportunities. They have pushed away trades to get Lori marketing to keep Moses Moody and Brandon Przymski on the roster. Brandon Przymski has been a very divisive figure both in Chase center and outside of Chase Center. Same with Jonathan Kaminga. It seems that's we're all we haven't even talked about Steve Kerr and the troubles that he has had in the Bay Area. Both the criticism of his coaching and just overall like Draymond quitting on a on in the middle of a game. Just all these things that are that are happening right now and it doesn't seem that Steph Curry the face of their franchise as a priority on the back nine of his career and that just sucks. Right? I don't have an answer for this, but I think we need to treat our our star players a lot better on their way out. Chris Paul came up came to mind on this one. We need to I get you want to preserve when you're running a business but the reason why Chase center is rocking the way it is is because of one person. One person and there is no guarantee that you are going to draft another person like that and have the generational shift. So you need to put all especially for an organization like the warriors. You need to put all your if you want to be the Lakers of your generation and and change how we look at Bay Area basketball long term. You put all your chips into your best player that's ever laced them up and you figure out the rest later and the warriors have fumbled the bag on that. I think this was just a rant. Your thoughts Howard Bank.

C (54:33)

I had deeper on my list of resolutions for the just the warriors to do whatever it takes to make sure that Steph's twilight is meaningful. I've I've said similar things about LeBron in recent years when the Lakers were screwing up left and right about his supporting cast. I I can't fault the warriors in the way I fault the Lakers because the warriors have tried. You can say that the Jimmy Butler thing hasn't paid off to the degree you wanted it to. But they went out and got an all star player. They went out and got a a great dude like to the to the point of what I said a few minutes ago about you're going to be wrong. Jimmy Butler's better than anybody on the freaking Bucks roster. By the way, Draymond Green is too still at this stage. The warriors have two players who are better than anybody. Giannis would kill to have Jimmy Butler and Draymond Green around him right now. That's all I'm saying. Don't. You don't need to rebut. It's just true.

B (55:18)

Okay. No, but I'm saying, who else, though? Who else on the roster? That's good.

C (55:21)

No, it's a fucking drop off after that. But, like, you know, like, they made their mistakes, right? They. I've said it a thousand times. I never thought they should have used the picks that became Wiseman, Moody, Kaminga, because when they had the unfortunate benefit of being bad for a couple of years after being a championship team for years, when they, you know, the two timelines, as Zach always says, it was an accident. You. But the point of the exercise should not have been draft young players because we're going to have the post Curry group, the core. No.

B (55:54)

Well, they wanted to be the Spurs. They thought they were the Spurs.

C (55:57)

They should have traded those picks before they ever became those players. I thought that in real time at the time. I have thought that ever since. And yeah, you can also make the.

B (56:06)

Argument that they should have traded Draymond Green a couple years ago.

C (56:10)

There's a reason why he's still there. We all. We all know what it is. There's a reason why. Why Clay was there as long as he was. There's a reason why the. The warriors have functioned the way they have the last several years, because the priority has been twofold. Try to do everything you can around Steph, but also, you know, give Steph what he needs and also what he wants.

B (56:29)

He.

C (56:29)

He wanted those guys around. So I think it's. I think that's. To an extent, I think those are red herrings. I think if you have the right roster construction and made better decisions along the way, and if ownership hadn't gotten in the way of insisting on these young guys who you believed were going to be the future in the next era, they would have made different decisions. They could have gotten better players along the way. That's all water under the bridge. What they need to do between now and the trade deadline is get whatever they can out of a Kaminga deal. And if that requires also putting Moody or Pods or picks in it. I'm not saying mortgage the entire future. I said this on Zach's pod yesterday. It doesn't mean mortgage the future. It doesn't mean, you know, foolishly believe that if we just make enough splashy moves, we're going to be in title contention. And we can knock out the Thunder. It just means don't allow yourself to be a play in team or first round and out team. If you can find a way to build at least a slightly better version of this team around Steph and Draymond and Jimmy Butler, as it stands right now, it's a really hard thing to do. But I want to see a team around Steph that at least is capable of winning a series or two. They did get to the second round last spring, and if Steph doesn't get hurt, they damn well might have made the conference finals. So is there enough work to be done around the margins to. To put them in the thick of things? I don't know, but they're obligated to try. And that's the thing. Like, I don't know what the move is, but they are obligated to keep trying. And they did when they went out and got Jimmy Butler. And they, you know, you're not going to find another trade of that level, especially with how cheaply they were able to get him. But find something, do something.

B (58:11)

Yeah, we'll see. Joe Lakob is the de facto GM at this point. I don't care what anybody says in that organization. We all know the truth. Do you have one more before we go to mailback?

C (58:22)

I mean, I could. I could just like tick off a handful of others here that I was just having fun with. Like, resolution for the Chicago Bulls. Do something. To commit to something.

B (58:33)

To do something that is not.

C (58:35)

Commit to something, anything that is not mediocrity. Because the conclusion of the last 10 years is that you are committed to something. You do have goals. The goal is to win 39 to 43 games every year, be in the play in and get bounced in the play into the first round of the playoffs. That like, cool, Great way to accomplish your goals. Commit to something other than mediocrity. Chicago Bulls next resolution. Trey Young, Lamelo ball. John Morant. I just want them all to get traded. They could all get traded for each other, get traded somewhere else, whatever.

B (59:02)

Can they get trained on the same team?

C (59:05)

Sure, why not?

B (59:05)

I don't know if that's. That's not technically possible, but like, if it were, can we let us all. Let's. Let's all go to Charlotte. Cool.

C (59:14)

I would like the universe to resolve to not create Achilles ruptures and star NBA players anymore. I want to see Jason Tatum, Tyrese Halliburton, Dame, Lillard, all back sooner than later. Fred Van Vliet in there too. Kyrie Irving in his acl, like just. Let's just get all these stars back on the court again. This is more.

B (59:34)

Take the injury tackle off like on 2k. Just like. No more injury. Exactly.

C (59:38)

There you go. And last one. One more resolution for the NBA. Just please reject expansion. We don't need a watered down.

B (59:45)

Wait, hold on.

C (59:46)

They're not shitty teams as it is.

B (59:48)

You're going to. Because I'm trying to go to Seattle. What about relocation? I'm trying to go to Seattle.

C (59:52)

I'm going to say this in two parts and I'm not going to elaborate. I support relocation instead of expansion to get the NBA back to Seattle. And no, I will not say which teams on the record I think should be relocated, but I think people can figure it out.

B (60:07)

No matter. Yo, I don't know. I think if they put a team in Seattle, me and Howard are going to be fighting to see who was going to do the first Seattle feature.

C (60:16)

Everybody's going to be clamoring to go. Seattle deserves to have a team back. Let me be very, very clear. Seattle never should have lost the Sonics. They deserve to have a team again. Shout out in his Sonic Boom podcast series. Everybody should go listen if you haven't before. But no, I don't believe expansion is necessary, warranted or wise.

B (60:34)

Have you been to Climate pledge yet? It's great. I was there in August. It was awesome. I went for a storm game. If the sight lines are great, the arena is great.

C (60:43)

I haven't been to Seattle since the Sonics left.

B (60:46)

That's a. That's. I guess you're East Coast. I understand. I was gonna say that's kind of. That's. That's out of pocket, but I understand east coast bias. Speaking of east coast bias, let's take a quick break and Cliff is going to join us for mailbag. And we are back. Cliffy boo. Not the two is in the building. It's good to see you, Cliff. What's going on, buddy?

A (61:09)

Lolo how we're back, man. Happy New Year's to you guys, man. It's been a fun 2025 hanging out with y', all, but I can't wait to celebrate on this side and you know, go out and have a festive, festive New Year's. But let's go out with one final mailbag of 2025. This is from Kevin Ellis, Tigers who changed their stripes. I'm curious if you guys can come up with four or five star NBA players in NBA history who changed the most dramatically in terms of what they did for their teams, I'm not talking about improvement, but rather going from one skill set or playstyle to another. I'd just like to see if you could come up with some Tigers who really did change their stripes mid career. Thanks, Kevin.

B (61:49)

I got a couple. Howard. You know, it's funny, Howard threw me these, these questions beforehand was like, you need these? And I was like, huh? I think this is a right up my wheelhouse, especially off of memory. So I think I'm gonna throw it. I think Will Chamberlain is probably the gold standard of this, right where he goes into the Lakers in the back stretch of his career. He's scoring a lot of points, you know, with the Sixers and the warriors. And he has to change because, you know, one, he's getting older playing on the roster with, with Jerry west and Elgin Baylor and they need him to get assists, they need him to get rebounds. And that's exactly what he does. I think he leaves the league and assist one of those years and they go on a 33 game winning streak and they win the 72 title. I think that's one guy. Vince Carter, I think of the modern NBA is a poster child for this, where he just gracefully goes into being a role player. A three point shooter who gets great dunks off during warmups that go viral. I remember those years. I saw him a couple years in the when he was playing for the Kings and I was like, damn, you old. But it, you know, you still got it, still got more athleticism than everyone in this building combined with. I think he is a poster child for this. If LeBron played it right, he would just. He's a reluctant poster child for this just to do it. Just be a hub for 20 minutes a game. But those are the ones that come to mind, is the ones that I think. I don't know if I can get to four or five because you know, stars have egos and stuff, you know.

C (63:13)

But it's, it's a great question from Kevin here. The difficulty is I don't think a lot of stars because stars do certain things really great to make them stars. So you're never gonna, if you're like a great three point shooter or you're a great post player. Back in the day when post play was a bigger thing, you're not gonna abandon it to go do something else unless you got old or got hurt or both. And so when I was thinking about this question, most of the guys that came to mind, it was because of one or the other age injury, sometimes Both, I think the gold standard to some extent maybe is. Is Kareem. And I wrote about this a few weeks ago, analogizing Kareem in. In late in his career to LeBron now, where Kareem. One year, it just became apparent it was time to pass the torch. And. And you just saw the roles flip. Magic became the hub of that offense. Kareem played a supporting role. Sometimes even was like the third option after Magic and Worthy. And that's what I thought LeBron needed to do now on a team with Luca. And so that was the column I wrote on the ringer.com a few weeks back. But again, that's like. That's age influence, right? Tim Duncan making way for Kawhi Leonard and. And then enabling Tim to. To win his final ring, too. Yeah. Logan.

B (64:28)

What? I have one Bill Walton.

C (64:30)

Yeah.

D (64:31)

Yeah.

B (64:32)

Walton starts his career. I mean, injuries played a part in this, but starts this. I. I'd also recommend everybody watch the ESPN doc on Bill Walton. It's amazing. It's like yearly programming for me. But starts off with the. With the Portland Trailblazers. Just injury history is. Is got so bad to the point where he had to leave Portland because he just didn't trust the doctors anymore. Goes to San Diego, plays for the Clippers. Isn't injuries do them in again? He's out of the league to the point where he gets a call from Boston. I think he's out of the league for like a year or two. And Boston calls him like, hey, do you want to play with us? He winds up being a important Cog on the 86 Celtics because he's just a role player, happy to be there. Right. I think that is if you are injured and have to change your strikes or. I think he is the. The. The player that you have to look towards to do that. Bill Walton, I think, is the greatest, probably the greatest example, to be honest.

C (65:26)

With you, could be. There are a few others that came to mind and, like, one of them kind of fits that bill too. Like Grant Hill. Grant Hill was going to be the next MJ of some sort, right? He was on that list of guys were supposed to be next. Jordan. Grant Hill was a freaking awesome player hattle the ankle issues, first in Detroit and then in Orlando. And so Grant Hill was never able to reach those highs again. So when you say, like a star who changed their game, he was a star who could no longer be a star. But Grant Hill was an awesome freaking role player and a great leader and really critical to some Suns teams and. And like, he bounced around a bit at the end, but like Grant Hill adapted his game as Vince Carter did. Logan mentioned earlier, as Paul Pierce actually did a little bit with the Nets, and then the Wizards and Clippers guys do it. Various levels of effectiveness and some are not as thrilled to play more of the supporting role or a bench role is another. That's another great example for sure. For sure. Like Igadala was, you know, there was. For a while there were two AIs in Philly, right. You know, Iverson and Igadala. And then he was a different player in Denver and then a different player still with the warriors and became Finals MVP by just being the best version of a role player that you could possibly be.

B (66:43)

So I'll say another one, though. No, it's probably not going to get as much acclaim or it's probably not. You're probably going to like, roll your eyes at this, but Chris Bosh is another one that had to change.

C (66:51)

Oh, that's actually. You know what? That's actually a great career. That's a great.

B (66:55)

Kevin Love is someone, you know, that had to change his career mid strike because he was.

C (67:00)

He had to fit in or fit out.

B (67:01)

Fit in or fit out. Exactly right. But like, they. They don't get that because it's like, you know, the. The shadow of LeBron cast. But those guys had to adjust Dwyane Wade as well in that. As well. Like, he had literally in the midway between the midway of the first season. I believe it was the first season, or it might have been the second season, the big three, where he literally had to have a conversation with LeBron saying, like, you are the one and I'm gonna be a number two guy. And that was a. That's a big deal because Dwyane Wade going into that was considered a top five guard of all time and could conceivably be that as well right now. But yeah, those guys need that as well. Need that attention as well.

C (67:39)

Yeah, those are all great calls. Joel Embiid is actually in the midst of something like that right now, right? Like, if he never gets back to who he was, he's very groundbound, but he can still score a lot of points. Like, he's more jump shooter now than inside scorer because he just doesn't have the same level of. Of bounce and physicality in the paint. So he's in the middle of some sort of. Of. Of, you know, just change here. I don't.

B (68:05)

How about Patrick ewing in a 99 season? Would that count as a guy as a Tiger changing his stripes because you know he's pat you but then he winds up being like a role player, a really good role player down the stretch, but he wasn't the guy that he was.

C (68:18)

And again, another one finals, another one influenced by, by injury and by limitations and age and by, you know, Sprewell and Houston being the, the better hub for the offense there. There's a few other quick ones here.

B (68:33)

Oh, go ahead, go ahead.

C (68:34)

No, just Jason Kidd. This is, this is a deep cut. Early in his career I, he was always awesome but early in his career they sometimes called him Asen because he had no J. And Jason Kidd became a really great three point shooter. So that's adding a skill set. I think that's outside of what the, the emailer Kevin was asking about. But I think I, I think about Jason Kid adding the three point shot, becoming a great three point shooter. I think about Amari Stoudemire who was just, you know, a, a, a jumping jack who then developed a mid range game and how that expanded his game. Carmelo adding the three as a really reliable three point shooter in the back stretch of his career or maybe midway through.

B (69:16)

I don't know if Carmelo counts though. I don't know if Carmelo counts though because he wasn't able to like, I mean he, he was a good player but he wasn't able to buy into being a fully.

C (69:25)

He was always going to be a, he was always going to be a scorer who didn't do a lot else. He was never going to be a great playmaker. He was never going to be a great defender. And those are the things everybody was always asking for that he never kind of got around to. But so yeah, that's fair. I just thought about he, because he's another guy who developed a three later in his, in his career.

B (69:43)

But we Talked about the 99, 99 finals with Pat Ewing, but we didn't talk about the other side of that which was David Robinson who had to adjust his game for Tim Duncan and realized like, oh, I'm not the best player on this team and he was the face of it. So we'll see. I, I really just talked through all of that because I don't have any idea about this next question and this is all, all Howard's question. I, I, I, I, I literally have nothing Clif.

C (70:10)

I had to, I had to give Logan a couple of quick alerts because I'm like, dude, you're not going to want to try to answer, answer these off the Top of your head.

B (70:17)

The first one off the top of my head. I'm really proud of that.

C (70:19)

I don't. But it's not the top of your head because I spoiled it and told you 40 minutes ago.

B (70:24)

I could have got it, though, because when you did it, you were like, no. In the conversation really quickly. When Howard was like, I don't know if you're going to get this. And you're like, I don't know how to do research. I sprouted off like five names. Like, I'll wilt this guy, this guy, this guy. I could have did it. I could have did it. Absolutely fine.

A (70:39)

Also, just for Cliff, what we got. Also, just for context, please never refer to Andrea Godala's AI. No disrespect. No disrespect.

C (70:49)

Is that. Is that as bad as saying that Oklahoma, you can't get direct flights there and the downtown is only a mile wide?

B (70:55)

It's bad as saying calling San Francisco San Fran. But I don't.

C (70:59)

Oh, that one kills me. That one kills me.

A (71:00)

Yeah.

C (71:01)

Then Frisco. Do not say Frisco. Frisco's in Texas, people.

B (71:04)

That's a. Frisco's in a different divide because I'm going to give a matter of fact, before we get to Cliff's question, there's a. There's a dregs one, a legendary San Francisco illuminary who gives you the actual history of San Francisco and Frisco and its relationship to Texas. So, anyways, I will send that offline. Go to Cliff for the last question, because I'm about. Because.

A (71:27)

All right, this, this is from John Majewski, Die Hard NBA analogs in the spirit of Christmas, who is the John McLean of current NBA players? I'm thinking somebody tough, gritty, and perpetually underrated, but very, very good in the clutch. Also needs to be funny and charismatic. Draymond, question mark. He comes closest for me, but he doesn't seem quite right historically. Lady Bird fits in some way, but he's too big of a star by the time he was a pro. What about Robert Horry? How about Hans Gruber, somebody immensely skilled and talented but can't help but get in their own way during the biggest moments. James Harden, question mark. Eager to hear your thoughts. Professor John Majewski, emeritus, Department of History, UC Santa Barbara. Shout out to John Majewski.

B (72:12)

I asked for fun times. UC Santa Barbara. That's my, that's my contribution to this, to this question. Shout out Isla Vista if you know.

C (72:20)

You know, shout out to Santa Barbara, shout out to the gauchos. My wife is a gaucho, so always, always love answering questions from UCSB alums. This is a great question. This is. Turns out Logan's only seen Die Hard, like, once. Me being the age I am, I have seen it approximately 5732 times, give or take. I love this question. Ellis from Die Hard is in fact my avatar every December on social media and is on blue sky right now. John McClain. I like the description. I like the outline we're drawing here. Trying to find an NBA player. And I think you're right that Draymond is not quite the right fit there. And I thought about this. It turns out, actually, it's the guy playing right next to him. I think Jimmy butler is John McLean. Like, think about what McLean at one point calls himself when he's talking to Hans and he's saying, who are you? And he says, just a fly in the ointment, a pain in the ass. That's Jimmy.

B (73:18)

He's.

C (73:19)

He's a fly in the ointment. He's a pain in the ass.

A (73:21)

He's.

C (73:22)

But in the best way possible. Sometimes not the best way possible. I don't. I think the Heat would say. But Jimmy Butler, definitely underrated for the. The totality of his career. He's had some honors, but he's not your classic NBA superstar who's dropping 25, 30 night. He just does a lot of little things along the way, but he can score in the clutch. He's definitely a guy you want to go to in clutch time as a defender as well as a playmaker as well. And he's got the charisma like you. You. You said, like, again, the right. The right call. John McLean. Funny little quippy, some charisma. That's. That's Jimmy Butler. So I think. I think Jimmy Butler is our John McLane of the NBA. Hans Gruber was a little harder. Like, Hans is super smart. He's. He's a criminal mastermind right up to the point where he falls like 35 stories to his death while trying to hang on to. To Holly's Rolex watch. It's. It's a. It's a tough call here. I settled on Rudy Gobert. Hans has got the German accent going, got that cool European vibe. Rudy's bringing the French vibe. Rudy sometimes clever, but like. Like, Hans kind of like maybe fatally flawed, a little too sure of himself, maybe tries a little too hard, specifically on offense because you're not an offensive player. Rudy Gobert. I'M sorry. So I think Gobert is where I've settled on this. But for sheer casting purposes, like Jokic would be just such a great movie villain and talk about like the accent that goes with it too. So I kind of like Jokic there. Hans was supposed to be German in this movie. Apparently the German was not quite accurate or was not quite grammatical. So maybe we need a real German. Maybe it's Dirk Nowitzki, but that's past NBA. So our, our listener did not ask for an Ellis stand in. But because Ellis might be my favorite character in the movie and is my avatar, I'm just going to say that I would describe Ellis as the kind of like self impressed talker who thinks he's a lot more clever than he actually is. And that would be Dylan Brooks. So there you go. There's your Die Hard NBA comps for the day.

B (75:36)

So you're saying you love Dylan Brooks.

C (75:37)

You're saying I, I do. I, I think Dylan Brooks is awesome. He's fun. Steve Kerr made his.

B (75:48)

Steve Kirk got his own problems. But I just love seeing the compilations of like Dylan Brooks with LeBron. I love it. I love it. It's funny, you know, the hat, the hand slaps, all that. That's my. Again, I don't know about Die Hards. That was my contribution. Dylan Brooks and Isla Vista real quick.

C (76:05)

By the way, to our listener, Harry Liggins. The, the, the AI step over email is still in the archive. It's still in the can. It's the top, top shelf. We're going to get to it as soon as Raja gets back on this podcast for a Tuesday pod when we do the Mailbag. So, or who knows, maybe we'll break it out on Friday when it's just me and Raja. We'll get to it. But we got to do that one when Raja's on the pod.

B (76:27)

All right. Ms. Everybody. Ms. You, Roger. We will see everyone next year, first and foremost. I will be back next Tuesday. Howard will be back, presumably with Raja Bell. And that's been another edition of Real Ones. Happy holidays. We gave you an hour, 20 minutes. You know how we do on these. Howard Logan ones was very long winded. We got a lot to say. Real ones mailbag gmail.com realmsmailback gmail.com real ones mailbag gmail.com tap in with us every Tuesday. We will do our best to get to your questions. We will see you next year. All the shits. Happy holidays. Bye. Must be 21 years and older and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with the Kansas Star Casino or 18 and older and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem call 1-800- gambler or visit rghelp.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 1-800-3275 5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.