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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Group chat. I am Justin Barrier, and joining me as usual, Rob Mahoney and Jay Kyle Mann. But joining us, a special guest for our NBA potluck edition, one of the original pod settlers, it's Zach Lowe. What's up, Zach?
- [00:26]
B
I'm thrilled to be here. The irony is I hate actual group chats in regular life, and I have multiple group chats that are muted. I recently had an issue with a wordle group chat that I might have to eject myself from because too much information about the word was shared. And so. But this group chat, I'm all in for.
- [00:45]
A
Rob, are you a group. Are you a wordle sort of guy? He seems like it, yeah.
- [00:49]
C
Well, first of all, what does that mean? You know, I don't, I don't like you delivered that, but I guess what.
- [00:55]
A
Are people talking about? Are they, like, trying to work together to come up with the answer?
- [01:00]
B
It's. It's a. It's score comparison. And then we had one participant who shall remain nameless, who always does it first. And one day this person was like, this was so. I didn't even know this word. And I had to use and that just so, like, I've, I've got.
- [01:14]
C
Wow.
- [01:14]
B
I've got it down to three or four possibilities. Like, well, it must be the most obscure possibility. And it was not. And I was like, you can't. That's too much table talk. We can't have that kind of table talk or I'm out of the group.
- [01:24]
C
Very poor form from Stan Van Gundy spoiling the wordle like that. I can't believe he would do that.
- [01:30]
A
You're listening to the rare NBA show presented by FanDuel. FanDuel now displays your bet directly on your phone's lock screen. And with the latest updates to the live events and player pages, it's never been easier to be part of the game. And Missouri, get excited because FanDuel's coming your way December 1st. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus in present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut.
- [02:07]
C
Extra value meals are back. That means 10 tender juicy McNuggets and medium fries and a drink are just $8 only at McDonald's for a limited time only.
- [02:18]
A
Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California.
- [02:21]
C
And for delivery.
- [02:22]
A
Table talk is basically what we're doing here because we're doing our NBA Potluck edition in honor of Thanksgiving, where we're going around the horn. Everyone is bringing not only a player or a team to discuss. We're also bringing a take, which we'll get to later on. Why don't we jump in because there's a bunch of us. So we got a lot of. A lot of things to discuss here. Zach, do you want to kick us off with one of your players or teams?
- [02:46]
B
Yeah, you know, look, I could do the maiden group chat thing and talk about LeBron James or the Lakers or what's wrong with the Knicks or, you know, whatever big storyline you want to do, but that's not what we're going to do here. That's not what you guys are about. That's not what I want to be about. I picked. You can pick player or team. I'm coming in hot with Jaden ivy and the 152 Detroit Pistons. He's coming back. He's played two games. He's looked pretty good. Kind of a lost season last year forgotten as the Danis Jenkins revolution occurred. And the Pistons just kept on winning and winning and winning. But him coming back to buy his Harris coming back. Jaden looking pretty good so far. It's early shot, 41% on catch and shoot threes last year. It's got me starting to think about, like, this is already transitioned from cute story to whoa, okay. Like conference finals. And this has got me thinking two different things. Number one, should we start thinking about this team as a finals team right now? I'm kind of already there, given the state of the east and B, the trade conversation of, do you look at this hot start and Jaden Ivy coming back as a key player. If you're Trajan Langdon and say, obviously you're going to let this marinate for a bit, but does this make you more likely to go for a big swing or does it make you more likely to think, huh, maybe we're. We're just good enough already given the state of the East. So I'm going Jaden Ivey and the Pistons. That's what I'm bringing.
- [04:11]
C
He does feel like the swing player in that conversation. Because if Jaden Ivey is good enough doing this exact stuff, maybe it turns the temperature down on some of that trade talk. Maybe it lessens the need to do anything dramatic really quickly. Cause you can already see even though he's not himself yet how much just having him out there or really Having any ball handler out there with Cade accelerates and opens up their offense, like Ivy, if you will, if you'll pardon the pun, is like really surgical and kind of picking his spots. Being hyper efficient out of the gate, I just think, well, look, I mean, it is what it is. And he looks completely explosive, which I has been reassuring to see him. He's still a blur in transition. He still opens up so much for them. I love this format for the Pistons and so I. Yeah, I know you said they're going to wait and see a little bit, Zach, and I think they absolutely should because Ivy is that good and that talented that he deserves a little benefit of the doubt in seeing how far he can take these guys right now.
- [05:04]
D
I feel like we're just now getting ready to see what was really the original vision when he was taken, which when they took him, I was just like, oh, well, this is going to be an awesome duality between the half court grind nature of having Cade out there and then you've got this incendiary, just open field kick returner speed going to hit you in transition. This just thing that you can tap into. But a. The spacing was awful. As we saw it was just from hell, putting Cade basically in like a Houdini level straight jacket in terms of half court spacing. And then he's been hurt. So it's, it's interesting that we've just kind of been delayed in this because when you look at him, man, the way he can angle, it's almost like he tilts his entire body and runs at a different angle than everyone else.
- [05:44]
A
He's.
- [05:44]
D
He's getting his conditioning back and things like that shoot is probably a little bit better for him. But I feel like this is the original vision of what they were going to do with him and Cade.
- [05:53]
A
It's so nice to see him out there too, because he is a nice contrast to what they've already built, where they're practically playing WWII style, where Sar Thompson's trying to fight half of the other team. And then you got like Jalen Dern out there looking like he just stepped off of like a fireman's beefcake calendar. Shoot. He's just such a whole lot of beefcake.
- [06:11]
B
I described him as an Adonis yesterday with Stan Van Gunny, and I thought that was a little much.
- [06:15]
A
That's. Yeah, we're just, we're just sexy Jalen Duran. That's what we're doing here. But to have that energy, to have like the, the, the just electric sort of burst there you could already see. And that's the advantage of having someone like Kate as your point guard where he's practically just as big as a power forward. If he could provide that sort of complimentary. You do have to start wondering big picture here because Zach, I'm curious where you find yourself on the Pistons just right now in general because 15 and 2 but the east is what it is. Are we starting to think about them as a team not only that can win the east but that could compete with maybe the best teams just overall in the league?
- [06:51]
B
No on the second one. I think that's where the lack of shooting begins to really factor in and that's why the Ivy return and the Harris return is so interesting to me because they do. Even if Ivy's three point shot in your in anyone's opinion is sort of unproven and I get. I guess it is but it looks good to me. They unquestionably like unclog these lineups that are four non shooters around Cade or Duncan Robinson and Cade and three non shooters like that's, that's going to be tough at the highest, highest level. But we just haven't seen anyone at the highest, highest level in the Eastern Conference yet. Obviously Cleveland hasn't been healthy, New York is now dealing with some injury issues, et cetera. But Detroit has been the class of the east and their toughness, their defense, their interior passing, you throw a dollop of Ivy secondary creation, catch and shoot, run the offense when Cade is on the bench and Tobias is back. Like I think we do need to update our expectations of I think this team might be a legit finals contender just as is now Finals contender. It's. We always do this thing with the east where yeah they could make the finals in the east and that seems like the end of the story. You then have to play the finals and if you're going into the finals completely hopeless. It's not. It's interesting, but it's not that interesting. And that's where the marketing dream looms a little bit large to me. And I don't know if there's another player anywhere theoretically possibly available at any time that I'm throwing the whole kitten caboodle in to try to get if I'm Detroit, like I don't know that that perfect player exists. I've already come out and said I don't really get why people are trying to trade Anthony Davis to the Pistons. Maybe if the price was super cheap I guess. But I do think like they are legit Just beating the hell out of teams just as is. If Stewart can shoot like this, if Ivey can shoot like this, if Harris can shoot like this, why, why can't they make the finals? Who has shown you in the east that they're a no brainer? Like oh yeah, they're just way better than Detroit in a seven game series.
- [08:51]
C
Yeah, I think they have just less to prove at this moment than the Knicks defense does or than Cleveland's like collective medal does. Like those are teams that have burdens of proof of their own and Detroit's been so convincing, especially with their defense earlier this season that like I'm, I'm on board with this. Like I'm, I'm on board with them as a highly competitive team, particularly in the East. I love the market and fit. I have always loved the market and fit. Like he just.
- [09:13]
B
It's too perfect.
- [09:14]
C
It's really perfect in terms of really expanding what you're getting at the four beyond what Tobias can give you. And especially again if you're having Ivy or Jenkins kind of playing with Kate as another ball handler too, then, then all of a sudden you got something really moving within what you're trying to execute. But I assume Ivy would be a centerpiece of a deal like that. And then we have to flip to the other side, which is, I can't believe I'm saying this. In 2025, has Keonte George been good enough that no longer would like covet Jaden Ivey in that particular way?
- [09:44]
A
Well, Kyle, let me ask you this, let me set you up this way because we're now in this new era where you not only need a top two three, but you also need the depth in order to trudge through a regular season. Like do you start thinking about the Lori being the perfect fit a little differently now because it's such a multi track sort of conversation to have. Like you can be a better team in a playoff series, but we still don't even know if they're going to be like a top one two team in the east in the regular season.
- [10:11]
D
I think what we're going to see is you look, I think the difference between the teams that are good in the east and the thing that is probably the last step for Detroit to sort of ascend and say, okay, this is a really, really for sure serious team that can compete in a playoff series where adjustments are going to go on. That's story, you know, they're just very heavily tilted and it's working. That's why we're talking about it, Kate is just so heavy. Pick and roll 51.7%. And you get in and you look at some of these west teams, the difference is they just have multiple silos. Like, you know, if, if OKC comes into a series and say they tilt a little bit towards Shea, they have other places that they can go. It's like, where are you going to lean? You're going to get consistent, efficient advantage creation. If you lean into. If you lean into Jay Na'.
- [10:54]
B
Vi.
- [10:54]
D
We just don't know for sure yet. I guess kind of my. The question now is just do you run it and see sort of, you know, the printout of how teams shut them down was last year enough of a proof of concept to say we kind of know what we need. And my question to you guys would be like, what would Lowry be like? Is it going to add more pick and roll? Is it going to add more like high post isolation? Is, is he going to be the right. Where is the advantage creation going to come from him would be my question for you all. If they did go get him.
- [11:22]
C
I think it's a lot of taking what is normally kind of a standstill spot and making it a roving movement spot, right? Someone who like Lowry is an incredible guy on the cut, on the move, constantly slashing, revolving within your offense. It's not really the way Detroit plays a lot of the time. And so the idea of have. And some of that, a lot of that's personnel based, I think. But if you trade Tobias in particular, who, yeah, can step into the post and like occasionally knock a thing down or hit a pull up, like, but is ultimately not the guy you want doing a lot of that stuff and you replace him with one of the most successful scorers in the league this season because of the balance he plays with. That to me is sort of the rosetta stone of everything that you could unlock for what Cade is and the Pistons are and what they could eventually be.
- [12:05]
B
I mean, I think he adds, you know, to, to Rob's point, he's. He might be the most creative, unpredictable off ball mover in the entire league other than Stephen. And just. And he can do a little bit of everything. And just, just that alone to me would elevate them to a higher level on offense that they can get to now. But the, the question is again, the price Ivy probably like, does Ron Holland have to get involved in that and into. And does Utah even want to entertain this? I mean, does Utah fine theoretically being like, yeah, we're going to be bad Again, but we want Lowry, we want to turn this around quick. I don't know the answers to those questions.
- [12:41]
D
Do you spin your wheels if you trade a Keonte for a Jaden? I mean you just are kind of left in the same spot of this guy that we is an aspiring on ball guy. We just need to see it a little bit. I don't know. I, I, I'd have to be convinced of what would be in it for Utah. Does do the Pistons have the draft capital to make that happen?
- [12:59]
A
It's usually the capital for them. I just at a certain point how much draft capital do you actually need or do you look and say like actually the teams that we have the picks of, but it's primarily what the Cavs and the Wolves at this point, are they too good? We actually need other future draft capital to supplement that one.
- [13:15]
B
But are the Pistons picks also going to be too good? And I guess, I guess I keep fixating on marketing because like the Jazz have just been so bad for the entirety of his time there. But also I just can't find another guy who I love is like this is the last big piece for the Pistons who is even theoretically available. Like I saw some fake Zion trades floating around. I don't know about, I don't know about all that ad. I don't know. Maybe, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you, maybe there's a big ad for Detroit contingent here, you know, playing power forward.
- [13:48]
A
Like what is it?
- [13:48]
B
I don't, I personally don't get it. Like they have the number two defense in the league and they need shooting. Like he, to me he addresses almost none of what they need. But maybe people disagree. I just, I haven't found who the the other guy is and maybe that means you just wait and ride this out.
- [14:03]
C
Yeah, I mean there just aren't that many read and react fours that can actually space the floor reliably that you trust to do both of those things at once. Right. That are not just standstill players or just movement kind of flow players. Lowry can kind of do all that stuff in a way that is really exciting but also exceptionally rare and doesn't.
- [14:19]
B
Take away from your defense really. Like he's a totally adequate multi positional defensive player.
- [14:25]
A
He's huge. I will say like the kind of synergy that's already starting to form especially between K Dern and Ivy. Like Kyle was sending us clips already of some sort of arcane action that I didn't know what he was talking about but like there's already something there that you could build upon. And I am more curious about what they can form just in this current construction versus like going out and swinging it because there's still so much to explore about this team. Do we really know what Asar Thompson is offensively? Do we even know what Ron Holland is as an NBA basketball player besides trying to knock everybody's heads in? Like, I kind of want this to be the in between year before the stakes really come because this is probably one of my most fun watches out of the entire NBA.
- [15:06]
B
See, it's. It's tempting. I totally agree with you. It feels like on a much. On a much lower scale, to be clear, what Presti would always say about the Thunder pre. The giddy Caruso trade Pre. Like their big playoff runs. Like we want to see. We want to get to the playoffs and more or less like get exposed. Like what. What do we actually need? It feels like this could be that year for Detroit. It's just, man, you. You start doing these things like, oh yeah, we got three, four years to. To do this and it. It just comes faster than you think and shit happens to your team. And there's. I. I'm starting to lean more to the strike while the iron is hot for basically any good team. Like I. But. But I. But I'm. This is a great luxury for the Pistons to have. Both these paths are totally fine.
- [15:50]
D
You know what just occurred to me is I don't think that Ron Holland ever gets mentioned without mentioned fight. Mentioning fighting Ever, ever, ever, ever. I was trying to think thing or.
- [16:00]
A
A bad thing for his reputation.
- [16:01]
B
I don't know. He's been legit pretty good this year. And has he had a scrap yet this year? He and Beef Stewart are. Are just kind of just dial. Just playing. Just playing.
- [16:10]
A
It's mostly a sar. Yeah.
- [16:12]
C
See, I see Ron as someone who's like never not at war. You know, there's always something raging within him that he's trying.
- [16:18]
A
Psychological.
- [16:19]
C
Yeah. So it. It really is just a matter of how we're. How we're kind of demarcating these things.
- [16:24]
A
That's what I want my podcast rep to be.
- [16:26]
C
Oh, it's.
- [16:27]
D
It's already there.
- [16:29]
C
It's already there.
- [16:31]
A
All right. Since we're talking east, Rob, do you want to go with your choice?
- [16:34]
C
Yeah. I think another team that needed a bit of a wake up call that needed to get into the playoffs and perspose own admission to get absolutely embarrassed in order to reinvent themselves, and that is the Miami Heat. A team that is awfully Good right now and is at an incredible inflection point, I think, in terms of understanding what they're going to be. Uh, Tyler Hero played his first game of the season on Monday. He played 29 minutes. I thought he did like his, his part to fit into what the Heat are doing now. Um, Zach, I know you already talked about on your pod, like all the rotation choices that now come with SPO having to untangle, having Hero back. Norm Powell did not play in that game. We'll see how it all looks when he's healthy and who they start and who they finish and who they play in between. I thought there was another interesting wrinkle to this Hero debut, which is after the game when he was asked about the offense and he mentioned, you know what, like as this season goes on, we are going to have to work in some more pick and roll. We are going to have to work in some of my personal bread and butter. This is my subtext into the offense. Not a huge deal in and of itself, but one of those things where like I, I'm just like watching to see what happens. The moment that the Heat hit a skid in their offense in the regular season, the moment that Tyler Herro personally feels a little out of sorts or has a shooting slump or whatever. What is the break glass in case of emergency for this group when this guy just made the all star team based off being a really good pick and roll player and this team doesn't do any of that stuff anymore.
- [17:57]
A
So you're getting John Moran flashbacks is what you're saying?
- [17:59]
C
No, look, it's nothing that dramatic and I don't want to get ahead of any of this. I'm just saying this is a dramatically different ingredient to anything the Heat have been doing. And it's great to have another score and you can already see some of the benefits of that. Uh, but he and Norm are a little redundant together. You know, like, ultimately the way Hero plays is not the way the Miami Heat have been playing. And so how do we, how do we kind of square all these circles when all of a sudden there is one different ingredient in the mix?
- [18:27]
A
Kyle, what do you think?
- [18:29]
D
It's interesting with Hiro because I feel like his individual success has kind of gone the opposite direction of Miami's team success because when he was just a committed off ball mover doing the more golden statey kind of thing or before he really ascended as an on ball guy, he was thriving. And it's like, are those two things so @ odds that they just can't get.
- [18:48]
B
Can he.
- [18:49]
D
Can he continue to have the individual success and Miami be good? I guess that's just sort of. That's a question that reoccurs a lot with young stars in the NBA. It's like, do your own self interest sort of sabotage you in a way?
- [19:02]
B
I don't worry about the offense stuff at all. Like he scored 24 points playing the Heat system on 12 of 18 shooting. That's pretty awesome. Yep. This, I mean, yes, he's a great picket role player. He's also a great shooter. And shooter is just the answer. Shooting is just the answer to every question. So like we're a dribble drive offense now. Well, guess what? You have to press him everywhere he is on the court, which makes his first step even more lethal. Someone else drives and gets the defense to lean in a little bit. Tyler Hero can relocate 5ft 1 direction, get an open 3 like all that's fine. And Rob, you mentioned the brake glass in case of emergency. They kind of had an emergency late in the game against the Mavs. The game got close. They called a timeout and Spo called a pick and roll. Set for Hero was a horn set with bigs at either elbow and a handoff for Hero. And it really stood out because, oh my God, the Heater running a set, a set play like a ball screen action out of a timeout. And that's where that can come in. To me, this is almost more a defense question than an offense question. The Hero Norm pairing offensively, I don't have any concerns about it. Defensively, you know, who do you start? Do you start Wiggins at the 4? Obviously you're going to stagger Hero and Norm as much as you can, but you're going to have to start both of them. And what does that do to your defense? But offensively, like Tyler Hero wants to put up all star numbers and win a lot of games. I think this is a fine system for him to do both those things at the same time.
- [20:22]
A
Yeah, yeah. I think that's the big question here. Just because all the offense gets the attention, just because it's such an outlier, such a curio in contrast to everything that's going out there. It's funny, I was watching the Pistons to prep for Ivy and then I watched some of Miami's most recent game with Hero and it's just like going from wrestling to synchronized swimming practically. Like you want the ballet song to just go because it's jarring. Just like not seeing the picks being set and Just the flow being there. It's one of the more fascinating sort of wrinkles I've seen recently. But the defense has been fourth overall. The balance is why they keep winning these games. And so I think we could talk about who should play and who shouldn't. But they're kind of almost boxed into a set five because Warren Bam is starting to figure itself out simultaneously. And so if you want your five best players on the court, it's probably Hero, Norm Wiggins, Bam, where I guess maybe you go depending on matchups. And it's also 20, 25 and so in the NBA. And so guys are going to be out. And so that might just dictate who sits and who doesn't regardless. But I just don't know if you could get by with punting two spots in the backcourt. And Wiggins, as we've seen, is just like kind of come and go in terms of injuries. So I don't know, It's a very difficult kind of proposition.
- [21:35]
C
See, I'm hearing Davion Mitchell's music. Like, to me, the, like the perfect structural balance defensively is Mitchell Wiggins, Bam. Like that gives you a lot of bases to cover. It gives you a lot of options in terms of how you want to match up. And then, yeah, you're putting Hero and Norm kind of wherever they can be. And also this is about Norm, like not the best defender in the world, but does better than you would think, guarding bigger players sometimes and kind of fighting and holding his own in the post. He's one of those guys who's like a little better on ball than off. And so I trust him in those situations. Honestly, a little more than Hero defensively, but I love Davion with that group and frankly, he's been important enough to their offense too that I'm almost loath to pluck him out, given how he kind of gets them into their movement with his drives.
- [22:17]
B
I'll bet you, if I had to bet money, what is the Heat starting five when everyone is healthy? I think it's the one Rob just mentioned. With Wiggins at the 4, Davion Mitchell, the two guards we're talking about, Bam at the 5. Ware comes off the bench. To me, the Hero stuff is almost burying the lead of what's happening in Miami. The Kahlil Ware thing is a real thing. This is a real huge leap on both ends of the floor happening at the same time. A leap dramatic enough that the Bam where combination becomes maybe the most interesting medium term puzzle piece in the whole Heat Ecosystem, like, does that work? How well does it work? Does it matter if it only works okay? And we just kind of have to stagger them and keep bringing wear off the bench because where looks like a completely transformed player and a potential star player. And like, this is not a question for now, but bam, make. They just need to make that pairing work or else it's going to voice some uncomfortable questions on them in like a year and a half or two years. But where has been like unbelievable for the last two weeks, where do they.
- [23:21]
D
Rank in the east in terms of like first and second string combo, two way combos? Because where it's kind of finding himself offensively, he's been kind of narrow and slowly expanding. But I'm trying to think in the east, if there is a better one two, like first and second string combo in terms of your. Your anchors, is there a better one?
- [23:36]
B
And then you bring Haquez off the bench, who makes every shot. And your Mahoney and I are the. The crown princes of the Simone Fontechio fan club. Just keep, just keep jacking him up. Simone. I mean, he's. Someone's gonna have to be the odd man out in there. They have like 12 guys because shot Johnson just, just dunked all over the Mads the other night.
- [23:54]
D
He's like, oh my God, he's got a hammer.
- [23:56]
A
Kyle, Kyle, let me ask you this because you did probably a lot of draft scouting on where, like, where he is now. It's like, is this what you expected or what has been the jump for him?
- [24:06]
D
No, man, he pissed me off so much in college. He was so much like Willie Collie Stein. It drove me saying very come and go, very on his heels. And I would wa. I mean, and he just has kind of had to get stronger. His balance is a lot better. He owns his space a lot better than he used to. I remember just like him playing, he had. He had a season where he played Donovan Cling and Hunter Dickinson and maybe I think it was Zach Edie and he just looked like a child trying to hold up against those guys. But as he's gotten stronger, you've just seen him. He's gigantic. I think that's one thing that, that when you watch him, he's not a withering kind of wilting flower like Willie was. So I take all that stuff back. That's been the biggest thing for me is that he just, he. His presence and he's sort of accepted how big he is and he plays big and there's a. There's Just a huge difference there between guys. That's a huge leap to make. And I think, you know, I was excited about him getting in their developmental system and they've, they've delivered. They always do.
- [25:03]
C
Well, the Heat are funny in that way. There are some guys who they just kind of won't touch because they don't believe in, like, something in the way they approach their craft and their life and their, like, their, you know, the obligations of their job. And then there's times where the Heat love a challenge and they love to look at a draft prospect and say, like, yeah, this guy's a little Willy Collie Steinish. Maybe he's a little spacey in certain ways, but like, we believe because we are the Heat, that we can get him to nail down the stuff that's really important. And so far, so good.
- [25:30]
A
Well, that's why I'm glad you mentioned the Hero quote, because I took note of that as well. It's definitely making the rounds at this point because Hero's the only one who like approximates a star in terms of like, how he carries himself. Like, Norm's on a make. Good deal. He's had success.
- [25:45]
C
I don't know. Norm's a confident guy too.
- [25:48]
A
Yeah. But like, he's been tossed around so much at this point, like Norm does.
- [25:51]
B
If Norm doesn't make the all Star team this year, he might, he might, he might do something like, I don't know, I mean, he might take some sort of actual like, revenge action against somebody. I don't even know who.
- [26:03]
A
Can we get him nationalized that in like Croatia so he can get it on the international team or something?
- [26:07]
B
At least we need all the help.
- [26:09]
D
Say, Zach, so much there, is it, Norm, so interesting to me because it's like when I watch him, you were talking about him being a functional on ball defender. It's almost like he just. If you expand the game beyond kind of a two on two mentality, it's like Norm, we kind of lose Norm a little bit when he's catching and going and you know, it's. He never quite ascends to like surgical and like picking apart like helpers and things like that. And he's not. He gets a little spacey. He stops paying attention in team defense. It just seems like Norm is very effective when you keep him at this. Not like, not hyper narrow, but fairly narrow scope of like what you asked from him.
- [26:44]
B
I thought you said habanero. For a second.
- [26:46]
C
I was like, habanero scope.
- [26:48]
D
I do have habanero on the brain a whole lot. Yeah, there's.
- [26:51]
B
There's one thing in basketball that you can't argue against, or if you're not one of the five or six best players in the league, you can't argue against it. And that's winning. If the Heat keep winning playing this way, like, there's just not really much room for anyone to be like, well, I don't like this part of the system or this part of the system. If you're winning and you're putting up numbers, everything is all right, everybody wins, everything's cool. And you can't really argue against SPO and Riles either.
- [27:15]
A
True. Right. Well, that's why I want to go back to the Hero thing, though. I took a side tangent because I needed to be very hilarious for a minute. For whatever reason. It's just I do wonder, and if you look at Memphis as the only kind of case study of this offense, laroach coming from Memphis last year, etc, the fact that like over time it was less effective. But also you heard the griping from John in particular, I do wonder Hero being in the mix, Rob, like, do you think that we'll be on that path again? Do we think like, if this is the start of him being like, I want my preferences and how much is SPO going to be willing to turn over, like on a full allotment, a full game plan, a full quarter, whatever it is, in order to fit that.
- [27:57]
C
I mean, I think to. To go back to what Zach was just saying, if they are this successful, it mutes a lot of that stuff or at least tones it down. And so it really is a matter of like, like will they have a three game losing streak in January? That makes everyone a little bit cranky. I think with Hero, really kind of the sub question within that is like, if you are playing within this offense, if you are John Morant, if you are Tyler Hero, if you're any one of these guys, do you feel like you're getting to your stuff? Like whatever it is that makes you special, that makes you a unique and effective player, that makes you comfortable on the floor, can you get to it? And I think Hero, even outside the pick and roll can for a lot of the same reasons that Norm has been successful. Like the shot in particular, that think about. It's like Norm has been just lights out on floaters, like just getting into that, like that quick drive, kind of one foot in the paint, rise and hit. Hero's great with those shots too. And that's the kind of thing that will be there all the time within this offense. If that's enough for him. If, you know, if that's something he can feel comfortable and satisfied with, is getting into those sorts of shots as opposed to dancing a little more with the ball, setting up the pick and roll, getting to kind of pick and choose your side and your alignment. Then I think there's room for everyone here to eat clearly and everyone here to be happy and successful. But you do have to buy in and you do have to commit to that idea that I'm going to be served something that's not my first choice but is something I can still be happy with.
- [29:16]
B
And he looked, he looked like he was having a blast in that first game. It was only the Mavericks, but the Mavericks have the number two defense in the league, 12 of 18 shooting. Got plenty of shots up, scored a lot of points. The other thing about buy in, they're playing at by far the fastest pace in the NBA. They are like flying and that takes both buy in and stamina. And everyone willing to just throw the hit ahead to the next guy or just whoever gets a rebound brings it up and like that takes. They deserve the whole team, coaches, players deserve a lot of buy in for that too. Because everyone talks to talk about. We want to play fast. They're not only walking the walk, they're like playing at a turbo pace that you almost never see in the NBA.
- [29:53]
C
How did it take this long for the toughest, hardest working, best condition team in the history of the league to figure out that you, you can play really fast if you are the best conditioned team in the nbi, you know, far from it. For me to criticize Eric Spoelstra's approach, it's been pretty good for a really long time. But I'm always curious why they never tried this with other versions of the Heat. Like maybe you just didn't want Deion Waiters playing in fast forward, but this is a version of the team that can clearly handle it.
- [30:20]
A
Well, when Norm Powell is lined up as your best offensive player, I think you have to start thinking a little bit.
- [30:25]
C
It's fair.
- [30:26]
A
Deeper into the bag. But I will say I love that they did this and that SPO did this in particular because it harkens back to like what he did with the Big three Heat. Just like going to Oregon Ducks practice and like bringing out the spread offense and going small ball like that. Like his intellectual ambition is just like it's great. And he does have the carte blanche in order to institute it. Right. Are There other teams that just wouldn't have had the ability to do so because they had superstars. But like, I don't think it's a surprise that SPO did it. And I have to say, after all the griping over like, oh, the NBA is like too similar now. Everyone plays the same way, which is always poppycock. Like this year they're just like pretty stark differences. Talking about Detroit being just like a mash and pound team versus what Miami is doing. It's like, it's honestly a cornucopia, dare I say, of different approaches. And I'm having a lot of fun.
- [31:12]
C
With what are, what are the Nets doing? Where are they within the ecosystem of.
- [31:16]
A
Style, trying to put out fires left and right.
- [31:19]
D
That's the slowest anyone's ever said poppycock, by the way. Poppy cock. It's interesting because I heard Chris Finch say this one time in a talk, he was saying, every coach in the NBA, most coaches in the world have good ideas, but being able to communicate them and be able to get buy in is, is sort of the thing that separates and you know, suppose a good teacher also has the accountability that we've talked about a lot on the show. My kind of question for you all is what's going to be? What's, where's the rubber going to hit the road in terms of who they plan on, why? I said that like I'm from Baltimore, but where does the rubber hit the road with what teams are going to throw at them that's going to make them shift. And then maybe we enter into those conversations about, okay, we do have Tyler Hero, competent pick and roll player, we do have this, these other options where, where does it shift? Because it's going to shift. We see regular season trends like this all the time. And it's, you know, it, it, it does change at some point.
- [32:17]
B
I do find it interesting that they've faced the Heat, have faced the most zone defense possessions in the NBA because I, I can get in the heads of coaches and think, well, they're probably thinking this is a one on one dribble drive emphasis offense. Why don't we just take the one on one part of it away? And it hasn't worked at all because the Heat are just like, oh, you're just giving us the driving gaps in the zone. We'll just take them and run our same kind defense. I just think it's more going to be opposition level. Like, do they have, do they face a team that can bully Norman Hero at the same time on the other end. Do they just. It's just quality of opponent, versatility of opponent. And that's you. You can't just be a one trick pony in the NBA. You have to have a lot of different levers to pull. And to Rob's point, like I think they do. It's not like this Hero bam two man game is extinct. It exists. It's right there. They run norm off pin downs on the left side of the floor a lot. Same with Hero. Like they have some of these tools that they can reorient their offense towards. It's just, I mean it's a boring answer, but it's just once you start facing the best teams, it just gets harder.
- [33:17]
C
Yes. And I think like playoff level transition defense is something that can slow them down a little bit. Like the dedicated not a random night in December level of getting back will slow them down a little bit. The thing about the east though is when you look at this field other than the zones you were talking about, Zach, the other go to answer would be okay, we're just going to, we're just going to try to maintain this by switching as much as we have to. Like not on ball screens necessarily, but pick up as you need to to handle all these dribble drives. But who are the really good switching teams in the east like this is these are teams with a lot of conventional bigs. Like putting Cat in those situations is not the most tenable. Jalen Duran can kind of do it, but it's not his strongest suit. The Cavs are not necessarily built for that. And so you can try to build walls and you can maintain your zone and try to keep Miami out of its flow. But they've proven to be really successful handling, handling a wide variety of kind of junked up defenses so far.
- [34:09]
D
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- [34:45]
B
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- [35:20]
D
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- [35:35]
B
Run your way@newbalance.com running.
- [35:40]
A
Well, since we're talking about contenders in the east, why don't we talk about one of them potentially reformed back again in the Orlando Magic? I wanted to sing the praises and the virtues of of one Jalen Suggs and just him just wearing a headband around his neck and just trying to fight guys all the time. I love Jalen Suggs so much, but I feel like we gotta like take a side trip to Anthony Black real quick. Who. What's funny is like Kyle was texting us last night because I think he's a little bit behind the game and he's like, oh, this, this Anthony Black. Wow. He's just really on a run here. And I was just like, buddy, give it some time because you haven't gotten to the end. It's like in the Lord of the Rings where you think it's like over and then you got another hour to.
- [36:19]
C
Go because the Eagles show up. You know, there's a lot this Walter.
- [36:22]
D
White guy's a character.
- [36:24]
B
They're jump, they're jump. The hobbits are all jumping on the bed. Is that the end?
- [36:27]
D
They still.
- [36:27]
B
It's still.
- [36:30]
A
I love how nerdy that reference was and yet everyone got it immediately for this is, this is great, but I can't believe how well the team overall is playing Kyle. But also the fact that Black just looks. This wasn't just a one game thing. This was like 31 points is out of his mind. But he's been playing really well, steadily for five, six, seven games now.
- [36:51]
D
I'm just really struck. I kind of feel like I maybe need some therapy here for you guys to just talk me out of the craziness that I just feel like I'm a little bit in a basketball fog of watching what they. They've drafted a lot of these really rough and tumble guys over the years with Suggs and with Anthony Black. If you watched Anthony Black play point guard, I'm not Trying to do the typical Kyle thing here, but if you. If you watched him play at point guard at Arkansas, he looks so fast and athletic, and he was just, like, punching people in the mouth. Like, not literally, but, I mean, just when I've watched them the past few games, the speed that has been much, much more visible than the beginning or in the past couple of years with Black and with Suggs in particular. I'm just trying to decide what to make of that. Is that. I mean, we kind of alluded to it the last episode, but he just looks like he has wide open field to be the Anthony Black that we kind of expected him to be. And I'm wondering if it's like the spatial issues of what they look like full strength that are causing that and how do we feel about that? What's the takeaway from that?
- [37:51]
C
I mean, those spatial issues make everyone look slower. It makes their whole offense look a little more clammy.
- [37:56]
B
And I.
- [37:56]
C
Look, I'm not slower too. I. Kyle, I know. I know where you're going. I know where you want to go.
- [38:02]
B
Should we put a name on the spatial issues or. You're sort of talking around. You're talking around something here right now.
- [38:07]
C
I call them the Paolo Banchero spatial issues brought to you by J. Kyle Mann. That's. That's ultimately where I net out on.
- [38:13]
D
Hold on, Wait a minute. I didn't make this up. No, don't pin that on me, Ricky Bobby. That's not on me. Is that on me? Am I making that up?
- [38:21]
C
Am I imagining that you're not making it up. Look, ultimately, there's so much less to negotiate with this version of the Magic. They are less complicated. The flow is easier. Like, it's. It's more natural kind of getting into their stuff, and that feeds the strengths and the speed and the athleticism of guys like Black, certainly, who we should also say, I would say part of what made him so awesome in this particular game, in which he just had a career high in like 28 minutes, he wasn't necessarily playing point guard. Like, a lot of that was as a slasher, as a wing, attacking off the dribble, attacking from the corners. Obviously a lot of stuff in transition where he's always been quite good. But the fundamental questions with Anthony Black are still there, which is, could he be the point guard of a team that has all of these spatial issues because of what he potentially adds to them?
- [39:04]
D
I'm not saying he's a point guard.
- [39:06]
B
I want to clear, but yeah, yeah, I think that question's over for the Magic. I think the answer is no. And they don't envision him as that. They envision him as the exact player you just said, cut back door, attack gaps that other guys open, run hard on the, run hard in transition, run the wing and transition, fill all the gaps and hopefully, hopefully make enough wide open threes that this whole machine is sustainable. I think he can absolutely be that player. He's a super athlete. Like, yes, he's one of those athletes when he attacks the basket with a head of steam and a big guy jumps to meet him at the rim, he's like still going up while the big guy is coming down and can finish through contact like that. He's, He's. He was one of my six most intriguing players for the season before. Before the season started, because I just thought, he's going to close some games for them. He fills out a lot of their lineups, even with Bane on board. But I don't, like. I don't know. He's just a guard to me. I don't know what position he plays, but he's not a. He's not a traditional point guard.
- [39:59]
C
But taking that athleticism on the drive in particular, I think one of the biggest jumps for him this year is the force on those drives. Like, he's gone from loopy. I'm going to try to score around you with a reverse kind of driver into I'm going to try to fucking dunk on you every time I have any Runway whatsoever. And, like, that's a really exciting development. I mean, look like it's.
- [40:20]
D
Listen, hold on. All right. Guard. That was a. I threw. That was a word I should not have said I threw. Ch.
- [40:25]
A
Point guard in the way, like, a man is a point guard. And some of these athletes are point guards, but they're just making things happen based on activity.
- [40:31]
B
So. So let's talk. Let's talk about the actual issue then, because I think we would all agree, despite what we're saying now, that the ceiling of this team is higher with Paolo Banchero than without Paolo Banchero. How do they find the right blend of what's working now when he comes back?
- [40:48]
A
That's the question.
- [40:49]
D
Yeah, I agree.
- [40:51]
C
Can I bring it back to the premise, Justin? Because to me, some of this is. Paolo isn't out there for some of these games. I also don't think it's an accident that the few games that the Magic have lost recently are the games without Jalen Suggs.
- [41:03]
A
Yeah, I do. I do tend to wonder if Suggs is kind of the one wrinkle that nobody's paying as much attention to.
- [41:09]
B
I mentioned this on my pod earlier in the week. Like, Suggs's injuries and Bankero's injuries have not overlapped. They haven't actually shared the floor very much this season. And you look at their starting five like their actual starting five, the numbers are off the charts. Good. It could just be as simple as Paulo out there with the best guys who unlock parts of his game. Is the answer to this question. That's then that's it.
- [41:31]
C
Yeah.
- [41:32]
A
And if you just watch them out there, like, we talk about how Black isn't a point guard, I guess Suggs is functionally, but, like, he's doing point guard stuffs. The caretaker that I'm trying to get everything, everyone involved, but just in his own special way where he's just like running around like a chicken with his head cut off, but he's doing it, like, with jump passes. And you watch him play in every single, single time. He's like, how can I get that guy involved? How can I, like, swing this to the corner? I'm at the rim. But, oh, God, there's a three point shooter who probably hasn't taken an attempt in like five minutes. Like, let me go there. The hit ahead passes, the outlet passes. Like, he's just the ultimate galvanizer of everyone around there. And it's so funny because when I'm sure everyone had this discussion when you see the contracts all laid out and you're like, oh, what are they going to do when they go close to the second apron or whatnot next year? And like, Suggs makes sense just because he doesn't have the star wattage. He's a little bit more like, iffy offensively. But, like, I think he's essential. I think he's like the foundational player of this team. If anything, like, I don't know if he'll be face of the franchise because Paulo's such, like, a superstar and Franz is whatever Franz is, but, like, this is the emotional, like, center of this team and I love him.
- [42:39]
B
The issue is only Ben health. Like, when he plays, he's exactly what they need. And that's been. The only thing that makes you look at that contract is like, oh, boy, it's a long contract, but it's a declining contract. It's totally fine if, if he plays.
- [42:53]
A
We should.
- [42:54]
B
We do need to talk about the headband thing that he's doing though, where it's like an ad Scott, for The first couple minutes of the game. And then when he feels good, the announcer said when he starts to feel good, he transitions into a traditional headband.
- [43:06]
A
Well, the party starts and he just lets it all hang out.
- [43:08]
B
Did he invent this? Is this gonna last the entire season? It's like the first, first game he did it. I kept look like, what's that? What is that? What is going on? Is, is this just his style now? And he had it, I guess he didn't feel good for quite a long time in that game because he had it still like that in the second quarter. And I was like, I guess he's just doing this. I didn't know that anybody could do this.
- [43:29]
A
It's.
- [43:29]
D
It's a mood ring sort of. But yeah, because for a while when he's wearing it up high, you're just kind of like, is this, I'm delaying the turkey trip thing? What's going on? But then he doesn't seem to care. He'll wear it down. He's like, I am who I am, you know?
- [43:41]
A
Or does he have so much dog in him that he now needs a collar in order to restrain the dog in him? Wow.
- [43:48]
C
Honestly, an incredible take. I think that is the answer as far as, like, when he moves it up and when he forgets. Like, Jalen Suggs is one of these guys who will just kind of go into a trance for eight straight minutes and just make a series of the most ridiculous and incredible plays of escalating, like, escalating ambition and audacity. Ultimate. Like, he will go after loose balls. Other guys don't. He will go after drives and frankly, opponents that other guys won't. Ultimately felt like a pretty average night for Jalen Suggs against the Sixers. Like he had 11 assists, two steals and two blocks in the first half and then got ejected. Like, that is the energy he carries with him all the time.
- [44:24]
B
The Sixers, who are like literally running out of players and have an unfilled 15th roster spot and a 14th roster spot that belongs to Kyle Lowry, assistant coach. Like, those Sixers, like, you might, might need some more guys, man. Like, everyone's injured all the time.
- [44:38]
C
Real minutes.
- [44:40]
D
Zach's had a one step tip dunk over drum and granted that's not. Doesn't mean what it used to mean, but I just started laughing and he's so chaotic on some of these, like, ball screen actions where he'll come around and they kind of soft show to be like, well, let you have that. Like, we don't. We just don't want the alternative and like dribble and kind of get him into these really precarious situations where you'll see some of the wild like the, the seams of his decision making. But I feel like that wild and willingness is, is, is kind of, it's, it's a chaos agent.
- [45:08]
A
He's more.
- [45:09]
D
I agree with what you're saying, Justin. Like he's not threatening for like franchise face. I feel like he's just more of a version of a wilder Drew Holiday kind of a thing. He's like, he's the thing kind of holding it together.
- [45:20]
B
Derek White, these, these two way hybrid guards who don't need the ball but can do stuff with the ball and are very good at shooting threes and playing defense are just like they're the, they're the, the skeleton key to a lot of teams.
- [45:32]
C
I mean he may not be that franchise face but he has one of the biggest on off swings of any player in the entire league. And specifically to drill down on what we're talking about. Paolo and Franz without SUGGS -9 net rating with SUGGS +15 net rating. Some of that is the starting lineup that Zach alluded to. Some of it is just like he makes all this stuff make more sense all of a sudden if you're getting three runouts in a half because of the steals and the chaos he created. It just released so much pressure on your half court offense to get stuff like that.
- [46:02]
A
Move over Derek White. We got a new plus minus.
- [46:04]
C
God, let's go.
- [46:06]
A
But how worried are we? Because Paulo is presumably coming back many day now. He's been day to day for what seems like seven games. So I don't know what's going on there, particularly if we're looking at the worryometer. Zach, like where are you on a scale to like 1 to 10?
- [46:20]
B
3.5. Not, not worried. Although this is a great time for the better without question mark high caliber player. Trey Young, Tyler Hero. We got, we got a lot of that but I think everyone understands that like this is fun but the magic, I mean they had ambitions of making a finals run this year and that doesn't happen with like a league average power forward in Palo Banchero's place. Now you can do all sorts of iterations where you trade Palo Banchero for X, Y and Z and maybe that helps. But, and, and I don't. And I, I think the difference between someone like Paolo and Trey Young is because of his size and mid range game and versatility, it's much easier for him to orient his. He doesn't need to. It doesn't need to be a sea change. It's just like, you know, take three or four of those. Like we're going to stop the whole offense and dribble around and take an 18 footer. Those become pitch it to Sug, set a ball, screen, whatever. Like you're still Pala Ben Carrier. You're going to score 25 points. It's not that, that it doesn't have to be a sea change. And because of his physicality, his size and all that, I think it's easier for him to make that kind of adaptation than maybe it's going to be for Trey going back to an Atlanta team. That setting aside whatever the fuck happened in Washington last night, I watched that. I felt like I had taken an acid. Acid trip of all the game was going on. But like, that's been pretty good without Trey Young. And he's just a different kind of player with a more set style of play.
- [47:45]
A
You guys, anything, any worries? Are we above a five anywhere? Kyle, you're above a five.
- [47:50]
D
No, I'm not. I think what they've done is they. I do think. Wait, first of all, did you guys know that Paola's middle name, his first middle name is Napoleon? I did not know that. That kind of. That blue that threw me for a loop.
- [48:03]
A
No, but does it explain a lot? I don't know.
- [48:06]
C
He's too big to be a Napoleon, though.
- [48:08]
D
I will say one of, one of the things I've noticed in the past six games, like when you're looking for patterns in the way that they play, I do think that they've unlocked some lineup stuff where they can do some more like dribble handoff stuff that could help Bane, that could help Black, that could help Suggs, because their efficiencies have just like really shot up. Their assist numbers have been better in the last six games. They were, they were 25th up until November 12th. And then since then they've been fifth in the league. So they've just kind of unlocked some ball movement kind of stuff. Stuff, you know, I wrote down here, we haven't seen a handoff explosion like that since Rob got the Paramore Live DVD in 2008. So yeah, I think they, they. The, the palace stuff is just kind of. It's fun to be like Ewing theory and, and you know, irritate people. But he's so young. They have so much to figure out. And like Zach was saying, they've all got to play together More.
- [48:58]
C
They're also for all the hand ringing, like two and a half games out of second place in the east, like, but everyone is.
- [49:04]
D
Who's ringing their hands.
- [49:05]
C
That's the thing. Well, I think there's been a lot of hand wringing from their slow start. Specifically, the defense was really sleepy out of the gate. The offense, clearly there's. There was and still is a lot to work out in certain ways. They've just looked so great lately. And I think one of the other things with their offense too, that gives me some reason for pause before sounding any kind of alarm is they are uniquely suited to take advantage of how many whistles are being called right now. Like, they are marching to the line with and without Paolo. And if guys are giving. Getting the benefit of the doubt in the way that they have been specifically stars. But really it's across, like the Magic's top five or six who get to the line really consistently. They can anchor their offense that way.
- [49:43]
A
All right, since we're talking about good teams, Kyle, you want to round us out on the player team portion.
- [49:50]
D
I wanted to give Suggs a shout too, for that second quarter against the Knicks where he basically pushed them to the brink of fury. That was pretty awesome. A Josh Hart throat punch. I want to talk about Chet, Exclamation point.
- [50:06]
C
Chat.
- [50:08]
D
I kind of. I want to start from this spot. I think that Chet. I asked myself this question. I was just like, is Chet one of the most dynamic basketball players in the world? Like, is he in like the top 10? Like, I. I'm thinking about both directions. What he does, what he does for the cohesion of the. The personality shifts that are available to the Thunder on defense. They can be an uphill, aggressive, disruptive team. And he can be switchy in that they can hang back. Granted that there's some Hartenstein stuff that helps unlock some of that too. It's not totally a total chat thing, but then you look at what he is on offense, you know, he's obviously. I was noticing his rim protection numbers are a little bit different, but different. But I think that that kind of speaks to some of the versatility. But then on offense, you start to look at the way that he is starting to grow in terms of his self creation. It's not. It's not wild and out of control and wasteful, but he's. He's picking his spots. I just think I just want to start there with that. I mean, I. I think he's probably. Is he one of the five most dynamic players in the world in both directions. Like is the fact that he's not overly productive on offense making us kind of underrate him a little bit in terms of his total versatility. His range of impact is just phenomenal and essential to what they do.
- [51:22]
C
Yeah, I think the way that versatility manifests is not the way we usually talk about versatility. Right. He's not like Jalen Johnson, versatile and so he gets lost in that shuffle a little bit. But you're absolutely right about the defense and I think he deserves a lot more credit for the way he's evolving offensively, the self creation. Kyle, you're absolutely right. He's getting better and better at picking his spots. He's also cutting so much more than he ever has before and to me that's indicative of, look, rookie year, he comes in off a major injury, he's just trying to get his feet and he's playing full time center. Sophomore year he comes in, breaks his freaking pelvis and then comes back to a team in process. And now he's a hybrid 45 playing with Isaiah Hartenstein. Now he's had the reps, he's been through the battles, he understands kind of where his spots are and where the angles are and he's growing into his game and you can see it in the way he navigates the floor. Like he just has a better sense of how to be the best version of Chet for the Thunder offense in particular than certainly he's ever had before.
- [52:21]
B
He was my, you know, when I did a most improved player preview podcast with Kurt Goldsberry, I, I made, I made both of us pick one like obvious candidate like an Asar Thompson, Amen Thompson style candidate. One like super deep cut, like regular people don't even know who this person is candidate and one, I just called it like All Stars level candidate because every year you get to the midpoint of the season it's like I'm going back five years. Like should Luka Doncic be most improved player? And my pick was Chet Holmgren because you could see this stuff coming with the self creation on offense and you just felt like the Thunder we're going to use parts of this season to let other guys stretch themselves a little bit to get ready for the playoffs and Chet is doing that. Other guys are doing that. He's shooting 68% on twos. The defense is just what it is. It's first team, all defense level. If he ever plays 65 games, he'll land there. Or second team. Yeah, they're Hartenstein's they're just across the. They're just scary. It's a little scary.
- [53:21]
C
They're crazy.
- [53:22]
A
I do love the leap that that Chat's having right now because I don't know if it's necessarily an exclamation point so much as it is like the ellipses before the exclamation point. It's kind of like the, like the two first two acts of Jaws right now because he's like, he's doing things that are clearly done different and he's taking a leap, but it's really simmering beneath the surface. And so it's just like more refined, more sophisticated or just more streamlined of what he was already pretty good at. Like the mid range shot has just been unbelievable thus far. The ball handling is better and just like the confidence within the role that they've already carved out for him is just off the charts. And to not to take a leap as a young player is one thing, but to do it within the safeguards of what, what the Thunder have built and to not disrupt anything that's going on to the point where they only have one loss right now is pretty remarkable. Like, he's just like he, he's doing all of these like crazy things, but they're just so defined in a way that I can't remember another player doing.
- [54:21]
D
I think we used to talk about this on the ringer, like back with Charx and back in the day we would talk about people look for raw production sometimes as proof of development, but you nailed it. Like definition, discernment, judiciousness. Those are development too, not necessarily in. And like all his numbers went to the moon. Like the intelligence to play the. The headiness and the conscientiousness to play a certain way when it's the right thing, what your team needs. I think one of the things here, and his development for the Thunder is so hilarious to me because it's just extra. It's like Mr. Burns winning the softball game in that episode and Smithers asked him what he's going to do with the million dollars and he says, just throw. I'll throw it on the pile. I suppose that's kind of what Chet turning into an on ball creator is, is. And yeah, he's up to 81% at the rim, but he's more particular. And I think the thing about OKC that's so damning and that that really kind of weeds out who can be competitive with them is when you start getting the on the guard, on guard screening stuff that they can do on one side of the floor. If you have Case and Wallace, if you have Shea, if you have Hartenstein down in the dunker spot, the floor tilts over here. We saw this against the Warriors. You know who was, who was sagging into help position against Chet Holmgren? Quentin Post. Chet Holmgren proceeded to. In this cycle, it was like a four or five play cycle. Chet was just like, all right, shot flake. I'm going to drive, I'm going to pivot. I look bored.
- [55:40]
B
I'm bored.
- [55:41]
D
Layup over Quint Post. He did it again. He got little corkscrew. He's amazing at the little corkscrew. Fade away smart about when he takes those. And then he just hit cash to wide open three. And it was just like, okay, well, we need somebody else. So you got. It's the Aaron Gordon's. It's the. If you think about the guys in the west who are in that spot, who can even compete with them on that level? And I just think that that's the, that's the stress of what takes them from that's a good team to God damn. What are we going to do against the Thunder?
- [56:05]
B
We all cite this stat on our various shows every day week. It's just still fun to look at the defensive efficiency ratings and see Oklahoma City Number 1, 102.8 points allowed per 100 possessions. Dallas Number 2, 110.3. Like, it's just not even. They're just in a different universe. It's absolutely crazy. And I know their schedule's been pretty easy, partly because they can't play themselves, but it's just like, it's an outrageous number.
- [56:38]
C
I have another stat and I want to follow it up with a question. First of all, we all know they've only lost one game this season. That's part of the Thunder story.
- [56:44]
D
Jed didn't play.
- [56:45]
C
Jet didn't play. It's also been about a month since they have lost by less than double digits. They just blow everyone out all the time. And yes, some of those are softer teams that have, you know, found their way into their schedule. But I was thinking about this as we were talking about the Pistons earlier and do we, do we think they would be competitive with the true best teams in the league? When do you think the Thunder will lose a game this season to an Eastern Conference team?
- [57:11]
B
Like maybe bringing up their schedule now? Because this is exciting.
- [57:14]
C
I think it would have to be like either a sort of random, they just have one too many guys out situation or a back to back or something, but like, they don't really play.
- [57:23]
A
One until December 28th, so. Well, that's part of it.
- [57:27]
C
We're buying time for sure, but I'm. I'm just throwing it out there. Like, where is the point where they.
- [57:30]
B
December 29th, December 29th. Home. But back to back against the Hawks, I have to see if the Hawks are never, never doubt the Hawks. The Hawks could lose to Washington by a thousand points or beat the Thunder on the road. Anything's possible.
- [57:42]
A
Those back to backs are tough, too.
- [57:43]
B
At New York is the second end of a back to back where they lose an hour.
- [57:47]
C
Okay, we're starting to talk about two.
- [57:51]
D
We got to figure out.
- [57:53]
B
You got to grasp at something. Yeah. I mean, they go there at Chicago, then at New York March 4, if.
- [57:59]
A
If Cleveland is at full strength or approximating it on January 19th in Cleveland. Yeah, that's something. You know, it's part of a long road trip. It's a five game road trip. That would be my pick.
- [58:12]
C
An interconference game until January 19th. Just insane from the Thunder as usual.
- [58:17]
D
There's a lot of couture stores in New York. We get Shea occupied. He stays out a little long shopping. I think that chops, I don't know, 0.08. Maybe off of his pick and roll efficiency, we can get it down a little bit. That gives us a chance.
- [58:30]
A
Yeah.
- [58:33]
B
Monster Energy. Everybody knows White Monster Zero Ultra. That's the og it kicked off this whole Zero Sugar energy drink thing, but.
- [58:41]
A
Ultra is a whole, whole lineup now.
- [58:44]
B
You've got Strawberry Dreams, Blue Hawaiian Sunrise, and Vice Guava.
- [58:48]
A
And they all bring the Monster Energy punch.
- [58:51]
B
So if you've been living in the.
- [58:52]
A
White can branch out. Ultra's got a flavor for every vibe, and every single one is Zero Sugar.
- [58:59]
B
Tap the banner to learn more.
- [59:01]
A
Since we're talking Thunder, should we transition to our take portion? Because the Thunder. One of my takes here.
- [59:07]
C
Okay, what do you got?
- [59:08]
A
Okay, so this is like the dessert portion. We're just gonna go around and give one take that we've been simmering on for a little bit. Mine is like sacrilegious, like. Kyle, are you wearing a Bird Indiana State jersey right now?
- [59:21]
D
Indeed I am, Justin.
- [59:23]
A
Okay, you might want to cover its eyes or just like turn it around or something right here.
- [59:27]
C
The pandering from this guy to try to get a raise around here by wearing the Bird College jersey. I've told you, embarrassing my father.
- [59:33]
A
Not even the Bird master. Yeah. Okay, so Len Bias, one of the biggest what ifs in NBA history, right? There's literally a ringer narrative podcast called what if Len Bias. So. And it's, like, hollow ground to talk about it. Just. It's also one of the biggest tragedies in sports history and all that stuff. But I'm starting to think about what if the Thunder got a top pick in this year's draft via the Los Angeles Clippers they own.
- [60:02]
B
You're just starting to think about it now. I think about it, like, every 15 minutes.
- [60:08]
A
Well, I'm thinking about the implications probably more than anything else because I'm thinking about that team everyone talks about. Oh, they get biased in the extender run because they had already won two or three titles at that point. They're already historic. Like, never see anything like it again. Even the Thunder as they are now. But I'm starting to wonder, like, if you add AJ DeBonsa to this core, all of whom, like, whom are 27 and under @ this point, like, is it just a wrap? Do we get to see what would happen if you add just a historically dominant team? Add one of the best incoming prospects in the world. Like, what the fuck?
- [60:46]
B
Nothing's ever a rap. Like, it was. It was a wrap when Durant went to the warriors and they won one title, and then they were taken to Game 7 the next year, and then they lost the year after that. It's never as much of a wrap as we think it's going to be, but it's definitely suboptimal for 29 teams.
- [61:04]
A
Even. Go ahead.
- [61:07]
D
Even. I'm going to.
- [61:08]
A
I don't.
- [61:08]
D
We won't dwell too much on this because it just starts saying names, but I mean that people maybe don't even necessarily know, but even if they added the fifth pick, like Caleb Wilson from North Carolina, who's this gigantic wing defender spacer, like, even that would be. Would be a lot. And they have guys in the wings. Like we've said, we get, you know, topic get better soon, obviously. And Sorber get better soon, obviously. If they. They just. They have. Even if they don't get the fifth pick, it's already. It's already really unfortunate.
- [61:36]
A
So the Clippers only have five wins at this point. We'll see. I mean, Kawaii's back. They didn't look much better. Last night was kind of better, you know, it was fine.
- [61:46]
C
There was a pulse. My two takeaways from last night. Tyus Jones is alive. And the Clippers also might be alive. We'll find out.
- [61:55]
A
Or at least undead.
- [61:56]
D
My God, that poor guy.
- [61:58]
A
My subtake to the Take is really like a lot of.
- [62:01]
B
They lost by 17 points, by the way. I know the Lakers kind of pulled in and piled on like some fake margin at the end of it, but it was, you know, they gave up 135 points.
- [62:09]
C
Fair.
- [62:10]
A
Yeah. But my subtake to all this is like, we do fret over these picks and wonder, like, what will happen if this team gets that. That by and large. And I think Zach Cram actually did a research on this a couple years ago for an article he did. But a lot of these picks that we have high hopes for never really end up panning out. Like, other than the Celtics, basically building the foundation of an NBA title contender. Like the Marco Jarich pick that went to the then Hornets, like, ended up at 10th. You know, I'm thinking about this Suns pick that everyone was like in a tizzy over this year. All of a sudden the Suns are very competitive. Like, things happen and so I doubt they'll get that high of a pick. Historically, it hasn't worked out that way, but if they do, holy shit. That's my take.
- [62:50]
C
It's kind of never the one you expect, right? It's the pick that's like in the deal and then all of a sudden becomes valuable.
- [62:57]
A
Yeah, the Kyrie pick from the Clippers. Right? So that's my take. Who wants to go next?
- [63:03]
C
I would love to go next. I have a two point plan to fix the NBA challenge system.
- [63:09]
D
I'm here for this.
- [63:10]
C
Point one.
- [63:17]
A
All right, let's.
- [63:18]
B
Let me.
- [63:19]
C
It's two points. You don't have to wait that long.
- [63:21]
B
I have to say, I've never been less excited for a hot take on a podcast.
- [63:26]
C
Let me. Let me see if I can win you over. Point 1. Only a player is allowed to challenge a call from now on. No coaches. A player on the floor has to decide this is the moment where they want to challenge a play. Point 2. If they are wrong, first they have to walk over to the Billy Kennedy cam, look down the barrel and apologize to everyone. And then they have to check themselves out of the game for a minimum of one minute.
- [63:50]
A
Hmm.
- [63:51]
C
How do we feel about. I just think we should bring back shame is ultimately my. My take.
- [63:54]
B
How do they. How do they. How do they decide? How do they officially make a challenge? Because if it's just you make the sign, it's going to be over in the first two minutes of the game, which is maybe what you want. Maybe you just want to get it over with.
- [64:07]
D
All challenges will be gone in the first quarter for sure. First minute. Yeah, Red, Zach's right.
- [64:12]
C
I think they need to run over to the scorers table and hit a beam style button that then activates the alarm that then sends us into the challenge. And again, the players on the floor are the only ones who get to do this. Part of the reason my brain was thinking this way is I was talking to our guy Isaac about the new MLB challenge rule which can only be challenged by the pitcher and catcher and batter. Like they can challenge a strike zone caller. I love the idea of taking it out of the coach's hands and of putting it on the players like let's get real stakes. It should come at a real cost. If you insist upon a challenge and you're wrong. And I think you should have to apologize for wasting all of our time if you are proven to be incorrect.
- [64:48]
A
What if it was like Legends of the Hidden Temple style where they have to get through an obstacle course in order to get to the beam. They all have to race to it, stop play anytime.
- [64:57]
B
Any NDA mention of an obstacle obstacle course reminds me when Chris Paul cheated at the skills challenge. The best skills challenge moment ever by far. And they. They got caught and penalized. Remember, they couldn't interview them like they tried to interview them and be scared. He's like, this is far too serious of a matter.
- [65:16]
A
Usher way. Okay, what's. What's part two?
- [65:18]
C
No, that was part two. The part one was that only a player can challenge it. The part two is they need to be shamed if they're wrong.
- [65:24]
D
Okay, Rob, big on shame.
- [65:26]
A
You got.
- [65:26]
D
Take that Internet and just go with it.
- [65:28]
A
Yeah, I'm just saying, you know, motivator shame.
- [65:31]
C
I also think there's an element of like a penalty box thing that should factor here as well. Like they. They need to apologize, but also like you're just like out of the. If you're wrong about that out of bounds call. You swore up and down. That wasn't off you. You got to sit out for a minute and think about what you've done. This.
- [65:45]
B
Does that happen in crunch time?
- [65:48]
C
I think we'd see fewer stoppages of playing crunch time as a result of this.
- [65:52]
A
It dovetails nicely with my popemobile idea for the refs where you can't talk to the refs. They just exist in this popemobile and they just zoom around the court. Just. Just throw everything away. Make it. Make it a nickelodeon game. Basically.
- [66:07]
C
Why not?
- [66:08]
A
Zach, you want to do your take?
- [66:10]
B
Yeah, I have two. I have a two pronged way to improve the playoffs and the NBA schedule, people, these are too high. It's impossible to do. You just created an in season tournament that ends in Las Vegas and added an extra game to the schedule. You can do it. Number one, the top seed gets to pick its opponent for the first round. And if you want to stop it there, then we slot in the 2, 3, 4 opponents just based on record. After that, that's fine. The number one seed, you get to pick its opponent. I don't want to hear any whining about it's too hard to plan everything. Just make it happen. And we need to go back to 232 for the finals. 232 makes the finals feel like an event. Like it comes to your city, it lives in your city for an extended period of time. It eases the travel when you do the five, six, seven kind of traveling. I, I just, I love the feel of 2, 3, 2. Like here it comes. The finals is coming to San Antonio for eight days for the middle three games. And I never heard a convincing argument. You know, some people say, well, it favors it favor. It's too much of an advantage for the underdog because any team should get any. The favorite should always get Game 5 at home. If it's 2:2, some people will say it's too much of an advantage for the favor because. Because you. No one is going to win three straight home games. I never saw convincing proof any other way. I don't know why it's not 232 bring back 232 is the reason we.
- [67:30]
A
Don'T have 232 is more for the logistics or is it more the competitive aspect to it?
- [67:35]
B
I have no idea. People used to complain about the competitive aspect, but from both directions and it never, neither one ever made much sense to me.
- [67:42]
D
And the logistics are decidedly worse. I mean forever. Yes, it has to be a competitive.
- [67:47]
A
A lot of international media, that's what they usually would say. But I don't know, it's just 2025. We're getting around on lightspeed trains and in Tokyo. So it's. We'll figure it out.
- [67:56]
C
I mean, host the NBA Finals in Tokyo is not a bad take, honestly. But here's the thing. Even if the competitive challenges are true, I like the idea that the NBA Finals might be a unique sort of challenge. That it is. It is a mountain that is unlike any series you've ever played before to this point. Like, what would be so wrong with that?
- [68:13]
B
Yeah, the final should be different in as many ways as possible. And I just love 232 and to pick your opponent one. I just. I haven't heard a convincing argument against that either. Other than the number one seed doesn't want to give the whoever they pick bulletin board material. I don't. Who cares? Like, that's what you're afraid of. You're the number one seed in the conference.
- [68:32]
A
Are we keeping the play in with the pick your opponent style here?
- [68:37]
B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I just think the number one seed should be insulated from.
- [68:44]
C
Oh, fuck.
- [68:45]
B
The warriors were injured all year and now they're healthy and they're 15 and one in their last 16 games and they somehow come out in the eighth seed in the play in tournament. No, we're flipping that around. They get to be the seventh seed. I get to pick whoever I want to play.
- [68:58]
C
I would be fascinated to see if there was ever a number one seed under this format where it's like, ooh, I'll bring Shangoons out for the next 10 to 14 days. Do we pick the Rockets now? Like, do you try to jump on it in an unconventional way as opposed to just like, who is the worst team in this game?
- [69:13]
B
We might have to. We might have to. To organize it so that you can only pick from the play in teams or from the bottom four or something. But. But those are. I don't know. I just like both those ideas.
- [69:24]
C
Absolutely.
- [69:26]
A
We need more juice in the. In the 1 8, the 2 sevens. Like, we don't get heat bucks all that often. It's usually like Celtics Hawks, where it's just like, oh, they win one game and oh my God. But then it just this trounced them anyway, so I'm anything for that kind of.
- [69:40]
C
Kyle.
- [69:41]
A
Last one.
- [69:43]
D
I wrote down a few here. I'm going to pick one Serious. And are we doing any non serious takes? Like holiday takes? Whatever you want.
- [69:50]
C
This is an unserious podcast. I hate to break it to you.
- [69:54]
D
We'll see. I had a few here. Cherries are only good in drinks, otherwise they're not good at all. Sweet potatoes.
- [70:00]
B
Cherries suck, by the way.
- [70:02]
C
Cherries suck.
- [70:03]
D
They're not even good for you. They have way too.
- [70:04]
B
Cherries suck. Cherries, most overrated fruit.
- [70:07]
A
Fruit under.
- [70:08]
B
Most underrated fruit is pear, by the way.
- [70:11]
A
I don't want to eat anything that's a mess. Like. Like a burger that's just falling apart. That's too much. If I'm getting red stained fingers from eating a cherry. Like, when am I gonna do this? I need to like set like a half an hour of my life just to prep and to Eat and then to clean up. That's way too much.
- [70:28]
C
You have to give yourself permission. Justin. This is what I do. I sit there with my big bowl of cherries, cherry pitter in hand, and I'm just manually punching these things out. I'm not bothering with the mess. You know, like you do this, Rob.
- [70:40]
B
This is so.
- [70:42]
C
Guys, we can circumvent all of these problems.
- [70:45]
A
The other one, what does it look like, the pitter? Is it like a hand tool or.
- [70:50]
C
It's a hand tool that basically has a punch that punches the pit through.
- [70:55]
A
Okay.
- [70:55]
B
Is it specifically for cherries?
- [70:58]
C
I believe it's flexible. Cherry and olive, if I'm not mistaken. So, you know, don't buy anyone. Don't buy any. One use tools for your kitchen. But two use is okay.
- [71:07]
D
Sweet potatoes are plenty sweet on their own. And you're out of control if you have to load a sweet potato. Sweet potatoes should be on the dessert table. Have you, you ever eat just a normal sweet potato in the oven? They're sugary, they're delicious. You don't need to load a sweet potato. It's a dessert. I'm just saying it's not a side. Sorry. Texas Roadhouse. So those are two. Those are my two holiday takes. I have a basketball I'll take. I think that dribbling ball handling has changed basketball more than shooting has over the decades.
- [71:39]
C
You're saying the evolution from like Bob Koozie, one arm behind your back sort of ball handling to where we are now or like what is the arc of what we're discussing.
- [71:49]
B
I think, by the way, I think you need to be careful. I think Bill has some sort of chip. Where anyone disparages Bob Koozie, he gets an alert if it's on his staff. So just expect an email later, later today.
- [72:01]
C
Fair.
- [72:02]
B
I ran into this earlier this week with the first ball conversation.
- [72:07]
D
No, I think ball handling created the individual star. I think all of the things that we, that we deal with in terms of players being unguardable are the result of the changing of ball handling rules. I think players were always going to become better shooters. Ball handling is the thing that has enabled dribble shooting. If you remember, the thing that changed the NBA was dribble pull up shooting. Not necessarily just shooting on its own. Steph Curry, whenever he had that big revolution that changed the game, it wasn't just that he could hit threes, it's that he could dribble and hit, pull up threes. So that's my theory. In general, I think ball Handling has changed all of basketball more than shooting.
- [72:39]
B
I love this take. When people would discuss Durant as a unicorn, they would focus on his shooting. And then the real in the weeds basketball people would be like, it's actually that a seven foot guy can dribble with that kind of a handle. And then you talk about like I was talking about this last week. The fact that Jokic and Sengun can just get the ball 30ft from the rim and dribble it where they want to go without getting it picked or disrupted is. Is kind of like a new ish thing for big guys that skilled to be able to do like they. They don't. They can like post up without needing to post up and get an entry pass basically just by dribbling into it and they don't get picked. And like that's. That's kind of a huge deal.
- [73:24]
C
It is the key to almost every player's development. For as often as we're saying, like, we hope that this one wing who got drafted can learn how to shoot threes. It is for Shangoon, like we were just talking about with Jaden McDaniels earlier too, about the way that's changed his offensive game being able to handle a little bit more. It opens up everything. So, Kyle, I hear what you're saying, but also the subtext is it opens up everything so that you can then shoot or so that you can then create a shot for someone else.
- [73:48]
D
So it's like they need each other. They need each other.
- [73:50]
C
Untangling them is hard. Hard.
- [73:52]
D
But I just think seizing space that the ball handling has been the difference, honestly, so.
- [73:57]
A
Well, if you break them down to the parts, like shooting is one action, whereas dribbling is multiple actions in the human body. And thus it's like a combination of things going into those. So there's no. Like it surprised that there's more creativity involved there versus the shooting one. It's more like in Street Fighter, you have a punch, but it takes you multiple different buttons in order to get off. Like. Like the. Or whatever. Yeah.
- [74:21]
C
Come on. This isn't Mortal Kombat. What are you doing?
- [74:25]
D
Yeah, absolutely. Rip off some babalities in your day barrier.
- [74:28]
A
You goddamn right.
- [74:30]
D
I could take that one a number away. Also, I think we should move to officially change the interim coach title to the prunty. Tonight's Prunty for the Magic will be.
- [74:41]
C
I don't know. J did it a lot too, to be honest.
- [74:43]
D
I like it.
- [74:44]
A
Okay, before we go here, every time on the potluck, we give Rob 5 to 10 minutes to bore the audience with talking about what he's cooking this year. Do. What do we got going on here, Turdakken? Any sort of, like, baked turkey? What are we doing?
- [75:01]
C
I'm. I'm slowly going insane over here. This is the first Thanksgiving in a long time. I am not making the full spread, and I don't know what to fucking do with myself. I am. I'm visiting. I am traveling for Thanksgiving. I have been asked to bring a dessert without peanuts. Fair consideration. What am I, like, normally? This is the point in my week in which I'm making two different ice creams and trying to get my pie dough in order. What am I supposed to do with my day? Like, genuinely, what am I supposed to do?
- [75:30]
A
TV pods lined up.
- [75:31]
C
I get it.
- [75:31]
A
What are you gonna do?
- [75:33]
C
I always do just the answer to that question.
- [75:36]
B
Eat cherries. Just go. Just enjoy some cherries.
- [75:39]
D
Get your glycemic index way up there.
- [75:40]
A
Right?
- [75:41]
D
Rob, go ahead.
- [75:42]
C
Tis the season. I am happy to celebrate with some cherries. Like, you guys need to get a Rainier cherry in your life. Like, that's what I'm hearing from the three of you.
- [75:50]
A
Yeah. All right, let's wrap it there. Zach Lowe, thank you so much for joining us.
- [75:54]
C
Thanks, Zach.
- [75:55]
B
Great time. Happy Thanksgiving, everybody.
- [75:58]
C
Likewise.
- [75:58]
A
Happy Thanksgiving, everybody. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. We'll be back on Sunday. Have a good Thanksgiving. We'll talk to you. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.