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The Ringer NBA Show
Nuggets Fire Michael Malone and Calvin Booth Days Before the Playoffs. Plus, Tim MacMahon Discusses His New Book, ‘The Wonder Boy.’
01:31:12
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- [00:00]
Zach Lowe
You are listening to real ones presented by FanDuel. America's number one sportsbook is the best place to bet on the NBA because not only does FanDuel have all your favorite player props, but now you can even check out stats and recent performance trends right in the app before you make your picks. Just download the FanDuel sportsbook app today to get in on the action. The ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com welcome to the brand new Zach Lowe Show. That's right, I'm back to have the same in depth NBA conversations you're used to. We're going to talk about the games. Yeah, the games. The X's and O's, the drama, the trades.
- [00:49]
Logan Murdoch
The playoffs are coming up and now.
- [00:51]
Zach Lowe
You get to see every episode in.
- [00:53]
Howard Beck
Full on video on Spotify and on my own YouTube channel. Episodes drop every Monday and Thursday with a collection of guests you're going to love. So make sure you follow and subscribe.
- [01:04]
Zach Lowe
To the brand new Zach Lowe show on Spotify or wherever you watch or.
- [01:08]
Howard Beck
Listen to your podcast.
- [01:10]
Zach Lowe
Let's go.
- [01:19]
Logan Murdoch
What's poppin? Real ones. Logan Murdoch here, Ross Bill there. Howard Beck and the Cut. Just want everybody to know that we had a episode already in the can ready to go. I was on the Madden Raja was somewhere living his best life in Florida and then this news drops. Mike Malone and Calvin Booth have been fired. Yes, you've heard that somehow we're the podcast where people just get fired and the either in the middle of our recordings or like right when we're editing them, this is just what will happen. So we're recording a quick 30 minute topper to figure this out. Howard, welcome back. The streets was like, oh man, he's going to Zach. Well that he's still one of ours. All right, Fuck that shit. Howard, what the hell is happening here? What's going on? You said you're going to save for the bond. What's going on here?
- [02:09]
Raja Bell
Good lord. Can I just start there? Holy fuck. What the fuck? Every fuck. There are not enough expressions with the F word in it to properly convey reactions today. Like, we thought the Luca trade would be like the. The most baffling moment we would see, not just this year, but for the next decade. Then the Grizzlies fired their coach. With nine games to go. And we thought, oh, my God, no one does that. What the hell's going on in Memphis? Firing your coach with nine games to go when you're going to make the.
- [02:40]
Logan Murdoch
Play, says, hold my beer. Hold my course. Hold my course. Light here.
- [02:44]
Raja Bell
Yeah. Big keg. Of course. Hold my keg. Like, they didn't even stop at firing the coach. They fired the gm, too. With days left, not nine games. With what. Which was what Memphis did. Days left. And Denver's got a higher ceiling in the playoffs than Memphis does, too. Which means there's more at risk when you're just blowing everybody out days before the postseason. Like, this is absolutely baffling. So here's what I. Here's what I can tell you in the little that I know, the little that I've been able to gather before we signed on very hastily here. This is not earth shattering, this part. Calvin Booth, Michael Malone, not on the same page. That's putting it kindly. These two have not gotten along their entire time together. There is, as I understand it, no communication and no trust there at all. So the idea that you might fire the coach while still insane this close to the playoffs, at least I would have maybe understood that if there's too big of a disconnect between the coach and the front office, that they're also firing Calvin Booth. I. I'm just going to start because we are doing this literally on the fly, and I want to make this clear. I am shifting from what I think I know to what I'm now going to speculate on. And I think reasonably, if you're firing both of them, and we already know those two do not get along and have no relationship, that tells me that somebody up above who is employing both of these gentlemen, decided enough's enough.
- [04:10]
Howard Beck
Your.
- [04:11]
Raja Bell
Your, you know, horrible relationship, your lack of trust, your lack of communication, in addition to whatever late season struggles, in addition to maybe we already have, have resolved as. As Memphis said they did, that we're going to do it after the season anyway. We'll just do it now. Rip the band aid off. It seems to me that this is the. The Nuggets ownership and LE and other leadership that is not Calvin Booth and Michael Malone saying enough's enough. We've had it with both of you. And you, you know, you guys aren't leading us anywhere good, and you're not going to be leading us out of it, no matter where things go this postseason. All that said, it still seems to me to be absolutely patently freaking insane to fire your GM and head coach with just days, single digit days left in the regular season, when you are still one of the top teams in the Western Conference and still a team with a puncher's chance to at least make the conference finals with the best player on the planet, it's. It's bonkers.
- [05:06]
Logan Murdoch
Raja, we just went through a version of talking about this in real time when the Memphis Grizzlies made their move. Me, you, and Sheed. I feel like we're going to regurgitate a lot of that conversation. But what comes to mind specifically with this team right now doing making this move with a talent like Nikola Jokic, with the ceiling that they have, I mean, no matter what, they still get the benefit of the doubt that they can make a run to the conference finals or the finals just because Nikola Lyokic is on their roster. What the hell is going on? What do you think about this specific move at this specific time for this specific team.
- [05:45]
Zach Lowe
That one of. I mean, look, I will reiterate what I said about the Memphis situation. I think it's stupid. I think it's as dumb as you could get. There's no world, no realm in which you can convince me that that team is going to be better because you use the verbiage, we want to give our team a better chance to win in the playoffs. Like, I read a quote. Was it Cronky that had a quote like that about like, that's bullshit. Miss me with that? Miss me with that? Now, if you had come out and said, hey, look, the level of toxicity around here is just too high. Like, we don't believe that there's any world in which, you know, we can be competitive. And to Howard's point, we're going to do this now, like I tell you, it's stupid, but. Okay, I get that. But you trying to convince someone that this is giving your team a better chance to win in a playoff stretch where you are viable to some degree, that's stupid. That's. That's ridiculous. And trying to convince anyone of that is, Is. Is. Is just disrespecting someone's intelligence. I don't believe that for a second. I would go back to the Memphis situation, okay? Like Cal Bouth and, And. And. And Malone didn't get along. I mean, that. That's fine. You're. You're. You're Cannon. You're canning both of them. Like there had to be some sort of blow up. This isn't. This isn't like an accumulation of. Of incidents. And, you know, okay, Something happened. There's a point. There's a moment. There's a. There's an incident that took place within that organization recently that blew up to the point where it was like, okay, shit, guys. Well, fuck, we got to do this. Like that. That's not an accumulation of. Of many incidents and, you know, disgruntledness, if that's a word, and people just disagreeing on certain things, and we've had enough. Three games before the playoff starts. Don't. Don't insult my intelligence.
- [07:42]
Raja Bell
Yeah, it's like, unless they were, like, literally fist fighting. Unless Calvin Booth and Michael Muller were literally, like, fist fighting in the parking lot or something.
- [07:48]
Logan Murdoch
Or even then, like, yo, we'll figure this out for the rest of the season, bro. Like, relax.
- [07:53]
Raja Bell
Yeah, yeah.
- [07:55]
Zach Lowe
Like, the other thing. The other thing. Like, and this happens. And again, like, I'm on wild conspiracy theory shit, but, like. And I'm traditionally, like, that's not who I am. I'm not that guy. But, like, it does happen at times. Howard, you. You know this. Logan, probably you, too. That someone in an organization has someone in. Higher up in the organization's ear in a way that they chop out the legs of people that are in their way to something that they want. And if. If those two were making a mess between themselves and took their eyes off of the real threat, which was someone else in their positioning for it, I.
- [08:29]
Logan Murdoch
E. Jeremy Lamb in Sacramento, potentially. Is that what you're saying to somebody like that?
- [08:33]
Zach Lowe
I mean, I'm not really, like, you know, I'm not. I won't be tapped in on that level all the time, but if Jeremy Lamb did that. But, yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I don't know who. I'm not saying that definitely happened, but it could be one of those two, right? Like, you two were over there, like, quarreling with each other, and this dude was sitting right next to Cronky the whole time, fucking stabbing you both in the back. I don't know.
- [08:52]
Logan Murdoch
So the Calvin Booth era, if you will, with the Nuggets. Howard has been characterized by trying to maintain a roster and maintain a team that is cash strapped because they're just over the cap, right? They have big contracts in Michael Porter Jr. Aaron Gordon, of that had to do with Tim Connolly, right? So he is trying to build this roster, you know, around Nicola Jokic to varying levels of success, right? Where you have to get Russell Westbrook for the cheap, right? Like, their biggest bench guy is Christian Braun, right? Who is pretty up and down as a as a player, but they don't really have much of a bench because they have committed so much money to their starting lineup. And that's kind of been the tale of his GM tenure. Reading the team leaves now, like, is it. I'm talking specifically about the general manager role. We're going to get to the Mike Malone role in a second. But do you think because he didn't make maybe the savvy move to trade to get a deeper team really led to his demise? If you're just, if you're thinking about this, just as we're trying to figure this out in real time, I'm trying to remember.
- [10:04]
Raja Bell
So Calvin Booth replaced Tim Connolly as GM in 2022. Right. So right before they go on their, their championship run season. So Connolly had put together most of this team, but I think it was Calvin who acquired kcp, right? Am I remembering that correctly? Again, we're doing this on the fly and we have not.
- [10:25]
Logan Murdoch
So Connolly was. Went to the Timberwolves in, I believe, September of 2021, fall of 2021. All right.
- [10:34]
Raja Bell
In any case, I, I think, I think Booth put, if I remember correctly, well, we'll clean this up as we go. I think Booth is the one who got the finish, put the finishing touches on that, right? Like Jamal Murray and Jokic are there, Gordon is there. I believe that was a Tim Connolly move. Porter Jr. Is there and Calvin Booth was part of his front office. So he gets assistant GM credit for this as assistant gm. But I think his big move after taking over, if I'm remembering correctly, was getting kcp so that, that fifth key player in the starting lineup. Excuse me, but he's also on the, the back end of this, right? So it's, you know, this is not to absolve Calvin Booth of blame. This is not to direct blame in any particular direction. But after you win the championship, the toughest thing for the Nuggets has been the attrition, right? They couldn't keep Bruce Brown. That was a salary cap issue. Not much they could have done. They couldn't keep Jeff Green, so they're, they've lost their sixth and seventh man. The following summer. They lose their, their, their fifth man or fourth wherever you wanted to put KCP in the pecking order. So now you've lost three of your top seven players in a 12 month span partially due to cap issues that they had no control over. But in the case of kcp, it was more of a. Does do the Nuggets think that he's worth all the extra Luxury tax hits and, you know, apron stuff and everything else. Right. So they let him walk. You can make a good argument that they've been vindicated on that. Like, KCP hasn't had the greatest season in the world for Orlando and Christian Braun Brown. Christian Brown. Looks like Braun has really popped this season for the Nuggets. You can make the case that, hey, we think we've got the younger, cheaper alternative here, and that helps us manage our cap and our tax situation. And I think they've pretty much been vindicated on that. But, yeah, under, under Calvin Booth's watch, they haven't really been able to plug in or acquire other impact players. They've lost more impact players than they've gained. The Westbrook thing has worked out pretty well. Dario Saric, not so well, and it's a mixed bag. But I don't think, on balance, you're firing Calvin Booth because of personnel decisions made or not made. I don't think you're firing him based on the record right now. I think you're firing him again. We're speculating here on the fly. I think you're firing him because this organization has become incredibly dysfunctional with too much palace intrigue between the front office and the coach. And so now they're both gone.
- [13:00]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. I mean, look, what do you want. What do you want me to say? I, I, yeah, look, Calvin, for. I would agree with you, Howard, in that, like, not everything has been perfect, but you do get. You won a championship. Like, when you, when you win a championship as an organization, as a coach, as a, As a, you know, a franchise star, there is, you know, there's. There's some road that you get in front of you to, to continue the efforts, right? Like, can we agree that when you, when, when that happens, like, there's a reset button to some degree that gets hit, right? Like, damn, Denver got a championship. All right, cool. It buys you some grace with, with, with the fan base in a way. It also, you know, pressures mount because you have that type of team, and you have to figure out ways to creatively, you know, continue to stay in the hunt for it. But I think ultimately, if you told me, hey, I was going to get four years of a GM and he was going to win a championship, like, you. You're going to take that. Like, if you, at the end of it, you had to say, was that. Was that a failed experiment or was it. Was it a successful one? Like, that's success. And so, like, we can get into, like, how dysfunctional and stuff it is. And Howard, you're more tapped into that than I am. And clearly, if it reaches a certain level, everything has to, you know, be reevaluated and you must move accordingly. But overall, I would just say, you know, as we're doing this on the fly, the Cal Booth experiment for whatever, like the Cal Booth tenure there, that. That's a success.
- [14:34]
Logan Murdoch
My thing is this, though. Like, what is with the. The new vibe of we're going to fire all these people in season with. In the weeks leading up to the playoffs thing, like, whatever you say, right? Like this team just hit a ceiling and we're, you know, the losing streak that has happened over the last couple of weeks. I feel like the Nuggets and Mike Malone have earned enough cachet to see this through, at least this season. And I know there's reporting also out that one. This is from Chris Haynes, one of the reasons why, you know, or at least a Nugget, I don't know if this is the reason why he got fired, but Calvin Boone and the Nuggets failed to reach an extension this season. Right. And whatever that means. But like, where did. What do. What do. What does either side gain from this? I mean, we see the. What's going on right now with the Grizzlies and how they've kind of struggled to maintain any level of consistency after Taylor Jenkins gets fired. What is. What is the upside of firing a coach and a GM with this close to the postseason and not at least seeing it through? Because the Nuggets deserve the benefit of the doubt on that.
- [15:43]
Raja Bell
You know, in the case of the Grizzlies, we talked about this last week, and, you know, as you guys know, I talked to some people and the, The. The sense I got was that the Grizzlies determined not only were they going to fire Taylor Jenkins after the season anyway, but they felt like things were so.
- [15:58]
Howard Beck
The, The.
- [15:58]
Raja Bell
The. The tension or the concerns were so great that they, they. They made the. The call, the decision, the judgment that they really did need to do it immediately, that there was an. There was an upside. We can all disagree with that, and I still think it's questionable, but their feeling was it was untenable to keep going. If that's what the Nuggets, maybe that will be their explanation, too, when we eventually get a little bit more insight on this. I get it. But in this case, it's even harder to. To justify. It's one thing in the case of the Grizzlies where you've had. It's been up and down. Sure, Taylor Jenkins has been the only coach that, that John Morant most of those guys have known, but it's not like they'd done anything. Michael Malone literally is the coach who led you to your first championship just two years ago and has a deep history with your franchise player. I think there are. Have been some questions.
- [16:48]
Logan Murdoch
History?
- [16:48]
Raja Bell
Yeah. Greatest player in franchise history and greatest.
- [16:52]
Logan Murdoch
Coach too, probably in franchise history too.
- [16:54]
Raja Bell
I think he's the, I think he's the winningest and maybe the longest tenured. So there is risk in this case. Now they're promoting David Adelman, who's been on staff for a long time and I'm sure has a good relationship with Jokic, but Malone is the guy who shepherded Jokic from obscure second round pick to best player in the world. And you know, I think that there have been some concerns with like, Malone is very old school, right. And old school coaches have a life span usually in this league with the newer generation of players who don't always necessarily respond to that well. So it can be tough. And he's lasted way longer than, than most. I think Malone had been with them for like 10 years now, which is, you know, extreme outlier in today's NBA. So I think there was some sense that maybe Malone was, was grading on some of those players, but I think Jokic was, was still his guy. So you're, you're, you are taking some risk in alienating your franchise star on top of it. It just looks like extreme instability. We've got days to go in the regular season and we just blew out everybody. Like, what's the message that's sending to Jokic and to the rest of your players? Not suggesting that, that this means that.
- [18:10]
Logan Murdoch
We'Re going to see, you know, Roger seething right now. Roger's seething right now.
- [18:14]
Zach Lowe
No, go. I'm not, I'm not trying to interrupt. Go. Oh, my God.
- [18:19]
Raja Bell
Not saying this means that we should now put Jokic on the watch list for this summer, but it's not great. And maybe you're doing it to head off that eventuality, but again, firing everybody on April 8th of an NBA season that ends on April.
- [18:37]
Logan Murdoch
Playing is next week, bro.
- [18:39]
Raja Bell
Sunday, where it's Tuesday and the season ends Sunday. This screams instability. This screams dysfunction. This screams maybe we didn't know what we were doing because if it was this bad, we shouldn't have let it get this far. I just, I don't get it. I don't get it at all. And this is a team that has absolute it's, it's shaky right now, but absolute plausible run to at least the conference finals, if not back to the finals. And you just pulled the rug out from under everyone.
- [19:10]
Logan Murdoch
Raj, your point though? I want to read this, the quote, I want to read the statement to you before you make your point. I know you read it, but I want to read it for the, for the, for the listening audience and probably make you even more mad. While the timing of this decision. This is from Josh Cronke, Denver Nuggets owner. While the timing of this decision is unfortunate, as Coach Malone helped build the foundation of our new championship level program, it is a necessary step to allow us to compete at the highest level right now. Championship level standards and expectations remain in place for the current season. And as we look to the future, we look forward to building the foundation laid by Coach Malone over his record breaking 10 year career in Denver.
- [19:53]
Zach Lowe
Stop playing with me, boy. Listen, like you. When you said the part in the middle there about right now and this gives us the best chance and you actually put a timetable on, that being the immediate future, you're lying now. Now you're lying. If you said something about moving over into the next, you know, wave of what we're going to look like as an organization and stuff like that, we can have the debate. But when you tell me that's going to help you guys win a championship right now and be the best version of yourselves right now, you're lying. Howard. Welcome. Welcome to team. This is some dumb shit. You weren't there last week. Maybe this met the threshold for you, but welcome to the fucking team, homie.
- [20:33]
Raja Bell
I was just reporting what I heard last week, Raj. I wasn't trying to justify it. I was simply telling you what I'd heard.
- [20:38]
Zach Lowe
No, I can dig it. But this is some dumb shit as it was last week is stupid, right? And, and, well, it is worse. But, but like, they're both dumb and so if you're going to tell me anything short of we were going to lose John Morant if we kept that coach for the next nine games and he wouldn't want to be here anymore. Anything short of that stupid. If you're going to tell me, hey, I'm losing Nikola Jokic and only fucking Nikola Jokic. I don't give a shit about Michael Porter Jr. I don't give a shit about Brown, I don't give a shit about Jamal Murray.
- [21:07]
Howard Beck
I don't.
- [21:08]
Zach Lowe
I don't care about none of them. If you told me by keeping Michael Malone and, or Cal Booth, we Will lose Nikola Jokic, fire their asses. If you're not telling me that stupid.
- [21:22]
Howard Beck
There.
- [21:24]
Logan Murdoch
It's beautiful. What if. I mean, a lot of the noise right now that you're hearing in real time is that Michael Malone lost the locker room and lost the players around him. And I mean, you could see it in the last part of the. And this alludes to Howard Beck's point about, you know, where the team was and just the whispers and, and all that stuff. But that's been like the whispers around the league too, that he was losing his locker room, that he was losing this locker room and losing where they are. And why, if that's the case, and I'm just paying Roger level devil, devil's advocate here, Raja, if he lost the locker room, then what? Then do you do this right now or do you just wait?
- [22:06]
Zach Lowe
No, but that's. Listen, I get that, like, I know I got it, I got it. And that's a real thing. And it happens. Like I detailed a situation where, you know, I wasn't on a staff and I had to come in as a consultant on that. That absolutely happens. And that can be true. But firing him right now is not giving you a better chance in these playoffs. That's what I'm telling you. If you say to me, hey, this has to be done, and we know that it's an inevitability when this season is over because these cats won't play for him next year. Like, I got it. Do what you got to do. But as it were right now, today, going into the playoffs in a couple that, no, you can't convince me of that. There's no, I'm sorry, it doesn't happen.
- [22:51]
Logan Murdoch
Like that from a functionality standpoint. And I think you're a great voice or for this, Rasha, a shakeup like this in the locker room. Now you're in the Nuggets locker room. Putting you in the Nuggets locker room. What does this shakeup do on a day, from like a day to day standpoint, this late in the season, versus if it was earlier in the season or versus if it was in the off season. What does this do for the day to day routine of a basketball player right now?
- [23:19]
Zach Lowe
Not a lot, because I imagine the only play Adelman has is to come in and the organization to come in, have a meeting and explain to how everyone, how nothing will change. And I mean absolutely nothing will change. Because if anything does change, right, like you are upsetting that apple cart and what you have going on in a way where now clearly what I'm saying is true. Like you do not have a chance to be more successful. So nothing can change this deep into the season with that short of a Runway to the playoffs. So we're going to keep your day to day. What we're doing, the verbiage of what we're doing, like, maybe he changes a pick and roll coverage here or there. Like, you know, maybe they run a set that's already in their playbook more often than they were running it before. Like, those type of things are at his discretion. But like you're not going to be introducing too many new things to a team this late in a season about to go into a playoff run. So very little is going to change in terms of like your day to day or how you're, how you're affected. What will change is like if Jokic is a Malone guy and he was having some sort of off day or had something that he needed to talk about or had some constructive advice, like the sounding boards that, that were in place for certain players, if they were to have been Mike Malone, those are gone. And so, you know, I, I, I don't know if, if he was, you know, to what degree he did that. But like you're going to be looking for different people than you could communicate with. Now if you're Jokic and that was your guy and those things turn your world into a little bit of chaos. Like, it looks good, the surface looks calm, but underneath the surface there's a little bit of chaos going on.
- [25:05]
Logan Murdoch
Right?
- [25:05]
Zach Lowe
Because you've, you look, we'll all sit in the meeting. Some of us may have big enough, you know, cojones to ask questions if we have them. Most people are not going to have those in a meeting like that. Most of the me's of the world are going to. Well, I might have had a question, but I was a little delusional as to like, probably my value to an organization at times. But like most of the me's are just going to sit there and be like, take your marching orders. But as soon as the meeting ends and ownership and everyone leaves the room, oh, it's going to turn into pure chaos. People be like, what the fuck is going on? What, what is what, dude? What is happening here? And the amount of those conversations that take place over the next couple weeks, I mean, you can't even quantify.
- [25:49]
Logan Murdoch
I want to, I sent a, sent a tweet in the chat. I would like for both of you guys to look at this. I believe this was last Night Mike Malone said this I want to gauge after we watch it, I want to gauge Roger's response to this and engage Howard's response to this. So based on, based on what this, his comments mean about where the locker room is and if that sways your.
- [26:11]
Zach Lowe
Opinion, it was a brutally honest message. And the guys that are full won't hear it. You know, they'll say coach is tripping. And the guys that maybe do really.
- [26:23]
Howard Beck
Care will because they don't want.
- [26:26]
Zach Lowe
They're not going to go back and watch their minutes because nobody watches their minutes. Nobody watches film. So we'll have to show them the film film.
- [26:33]
Logan Murdoch
And I mean like yeah. And I think that's the biggest point. Howard here is like the now part of it. It's the same thing that we had with Memphis. Honestly, by and large, like I get it. I don't think a month of. I don't think a month of maybe losing and that'll just more put more. A month of losing and crashing out in the playoffs will just give you more evidence to fire the person. You don't necessarily have to do it right now because just messes up with chemistry. Especially with Denver. Like they still have a chance to go to the conference finals in my eyes with this roster pre move are we. Is there a difference in or a similarity in this Memphis Nuggets thing? I know you said the Nuggets part was worse than this. What do you see going forward? How do the Nuggets in the next two weeks? What do you. I'm going to ask you to make a prediction here. What do you think is going to happen?
- [27:28]
Raja Bell
So one version of this would go like this. Let's take it on on faith that as I've heard and as I think others are reporting, you know, whether it's whether you want to call it losing the locker room that's the cliche catch all. Or whether it's just as I was saying earlier that Malone tends to grade on players. I do think from everything I'd heard there were. There were issues there. So the upside here is or if there's a best case scenario for the Nuggets after, after making this decision with days to go, it's that they respond better to David Adelman, that maybe things have gotten so bad between the players and the coach that they'll respond better to Adelman as, as now the interim head coach, that you've lifted some sort of of cloud or tension that was maybe bogging them down. I think there's serious questions about whether or not this roster was good enough to make a Finals run anyway. I think that's been clear. I don't think coaching or, you know, or. Or anything else that's happened in recent weeks or months is the issue. I think. I think they. They simply don't have enough. Right. Like, Jamal Murray has been hurt. Jokic, this is the weird thing, right? Like, they've got a losing record in their last whatever, I think 15, 20 games. But Jokic missed a bunch of games. Jamal Murray's been banged up. Jamal Murray's out right now. They don't even know if he's going to be back for the playoffs. So it doesn't make sense. Just as it didn't make sense with the Grizzlies to, like, put it on the coach at a time when you had guys out, and that was accounting for the losing record. I think it has to be, in both cases, bigger than that, and it certainly is. Whether or not you actually can turn things around simply by changing the coach at this late stage, I don't know. I'm skeptical.
- [29:08]
Logan Murdoch
Me just looking at the situation. Everything that happened last night is more of a symptom of just what's going bad with the Denver Nuggets as a whole. Right. Which is, you know, the GM and the coach going at it, tension building up, and just an overall bad decision in terms of timing. That's just all. That's what I see.
- [29:26]
Raja Bell
Yeah.
- [29:26]
Logan Murdoch
As from where I sit, I think we're also getting to a weird zone where we don't know what the hell is going on at this point. And I think we'll have a better idea that on Friday when you can catch me, Raja Bell and Howard Beck. I'll see you guys on Friday. I gotta go get a haircut. My barber is really particular about these things. Okay, I'll see you guys. All the shits. Tim McMahon is next. Bye.
- [29:52]
Zach Lowe
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- [30:45]
Logan Murdoch
Our next guest is somebody that we've been trying to have on for years, four years. And you know, I'll just leave it at the bureaucracies of the business have kept him from coming on the podcast, but he has a book out called the Wonder Boy. Luka Daccius and the Curse of Greatness. Roger has to deal with that sometimes. It's a curse of greatness. But my guy, one of my favorite people in the business, Tim McMahon, is in the motherfucking building. Tim, what's going on, buddy? How you doing, man?
- [31:16]
Howard Beck
Good to see you partners. It is a pleasure to finally make it here. My guy, Logan Raja, one of the, one of the all time great Mavericks, probably Derek Luca, Raja Bell. I would say if I'm ranking in.
- [31:31]
Zach Lowe
And about, I mean, it fluctuates.
- [31:34]
Howard Beck
You might be above Luca. Who knows?
- [31:35]
Zach Lowe
Who knows?
- [31:37]
Howard Beck
It's a pleasure to be here, boys.
- [31:39]
Logan Murdoch
Thank you. Thank you. Yo, it's so funny like how like people like Revere Raja. He doesn't believe it though. I remember there was, we, you know, Kurt is in like my backyard. Steve Kerr is in my backyard. And I remember there was a couple months ago, Grant Hill was at the pregame presser. I think it was like to give out rings or something for Team usa. And Grant Hill tried to like ask Steve Kerr who his favorite sons are. And he put. And Kerr was like Steve Nash and Raja Bell. And I'm and like this is a recurring thing that continues to happen. Raj is modest. He doesn't like to like hear all this stuff. I texted him, he's like, I don't believe that they said this. But like, yo, Raj is kind of a God in these streets. And I'm trying to tell him this and he doesn't believe me.
- [32:25]
Zach Lowe
Listen, I would, there's a, there's a, you know, it's interesting, right? Like you like places like Dallas, let's say you get in, you get out, you don't fuck anything up. The team's pretty good you're just riding with it and you kind of leave. At least you hope to leave a decent taste in people's mouth. The Suns were kind of the same way. Like, we were a really good team. I got shipped out of there, you know, not really my fault. It was kind of viewed as the two. And I had that relationship. Like, that was like, probably the gift of my career bouncing around. Except, like, except Philly, who were. If I had left right after that finals, oh, my God, I could. I could, Like, I'd be something in Philly, except I had the second year where I shit the bed and they remember that too. You know what I mean? And so the same with Utah. If I had just left Utah and not gone back, I'd be fine. But I took my ass back and it ended poorly. So, like, it's weird. You get out of places in just enough time and you could be pretty cool there.
- [33:24]
Howard Beck
No, but here's the deal, though, and dead serious. Everybody loves the good dude who does all the dirty work and never bitches and moans about touches or shots. Like, you know, Dorian Finney Smith is. Is a prime example of that. He was one of Luca's all time favorite teammates. I mean, they gave him up in the Kyrie trade, but hey, you know, they needed a co star. Trust me on this. While Luca was emotionally devastated in the wake of being dumped by the Mavericks and just being blindsided, backstabbed, all those sort of things. Reuniting with Dorian Finney Smith, I guarantee you made him smile because he's a guy who's going to always take the tough defensive assignments. He's going to play his butt off, and he'll take 10 threes if they're there. He'll take none if they're not. Never going to. Never going to complain. You know, role players earn love, and then you're definitely one of those dudes.
- [34:21]
Zach Lowe
Appreciate that. Appreciate. Shout out for the role, guys. Yes, sir.
- [34:23]
Logan Murdoch
Goddamn right. All right, man, let's get to the shits. So I saw, first of all, I was really excited to, like, read Tim McMahon's book. Just the beginning of the year when he was like, yo, man, trying to come on the pod. I got a book coming. I'm like, bet. Let's fucking go. It's on, Luca. Let's do it, right? And then the trade happens, right? And I had the pleasure of seeing Tim McMahon in like the week. I saw him like a couple of weeks before the trade happened and then a couple weeks after the trade happened and the couple weeks after the Trade happened. This dude was like a whole. He was dead inside, right?
- [34:58]
Howard Beck
Because he didn't have any gray in my beard before the trade, right?
- [35:02]
Logan Murdoch
So I see him in the presser, right? Or in, like, the press room after the trade. It's supposed to been like a week or so after. Or maybe two weeks. It was two weeks because it was Mavericks players, and he was dead inside. But I was like, yo, how you doing, bro? Like, I know what this. I know this shit is at the fan. You good? He's like, bro, I had to write an extra chapter for my book. And I'm like. I'm like, but I just saw you on tv. Like, I don't know, for the last fucking five days straight. Like, how did you do this? Right? So this is me asking you, Tim, now that we're all the dust is settled, can you take us through your personal journey first before we get to Luca's journey? What was your personal journey from the trade until, like, you, I guess, found yourself above water? If you have already, like, the. The two weeks after the trade, what's Tim McMahon's life, right?
- [35:52]
Howard Beck
And so the whole premise of the book is the pressure on a franchise when you draft a prodigy through the prism of Luke and the Mavericks, kind of build it or they might leave, you know, like we saw with LeBron and Cleveland, KD in Oklahoma City on down the list. And the Mavericks had managed to successfully navigate that through all kinds of drama and dysfunction and twists and turns, you know, big time personnel mistakes. They succeeded in the mission. They had built a contender. They were fresh off of finals, and then they decided to dump him. So a little plot twist definitely needed to be addressed. And obviously, actually, I saw you right before the trade, Logan, because I. On the day of the trade, I had traveled from San Francisco. The warriors had three games and four nights. It was like three Western conferences. And you flew to Cleveland.
- [36:44]
Logan Murdoch
You're like, I'm about to go to fly to Cleveland, right?
- [36:45]
Howard Beck
Yeah. And so, you know, obviously, you know, I had to connect, and it's a long travel day, and I'm gonna get some good sleep tonight. Oh, no, I am not. And I'm not getting sleep for a while, right? And so, you know, the ESPN part of the. You know, my ESPN job was obviously awfully demanding during that time, covering the aftermath of this trade, you know, reporting on all the Mavericks reasoning, all that stuff, you know, as well as the rest of the trade deadline. Like, I was in Oklahoma City on deadline day on KD Watch, The Suns were in okc But I reached out to the publishing company and said, hey, we've got to get an extra chapter in. And you know, they told me there's, there's a bunch of books already printed, you know, for people who get those books, you can get the extra chapter via PDF, you know, check out my Twitter account, there's a link there. Just put proof of purchase. But I had 12 days to get me the last chapter. Now I also had like, in terms of content, in terms of a story to tell, Holy crap, was there a story to tell. Like, I couldn't complain about the content and I couldn't complain about the business opportunity in terms of the publicity this trades generate in terms of the Lakers fans now being a target audience. But it was a hustle and it was due February 14th. That was the day the All Star break started. I'm trying to stay married for the rest of my life. So I take wifey on an All Star weekend getaway every year, you know, cash in those goddamn right Marriott points. We had a 6am flight to Miami connecting to St. Martin.
- [38:30]
Logan Murdoch
And speaking Roz's language, right, like four.
- [38:32]
Howard Beck
Games in the six nights before the deadline, you know, including where they're like booting people out for wearing fire Nico stuff and I mean just, it's insanity. They had a game the night before, COVID that game and pull an all nighter. I finished the, the final chapter at 4:00am, boom, hit send, grab my bag, grabbed my wife, off to the airport, we go, went through the edits on the, on, on the flights, got to St. Martin and I think I might have pulled a triple double because I think I might have had double figured beers all three nights that we were there. So it was one of those type weekends.
- [39:16]
Logan Murdoch
Roger, did you just, did you just have one of those weekends in the Cayman Islands?
- [39:21]
Zach Lowe
I did, I did. I was on triple double watch too, Tim, and, but I flamed out. I mean we were there, we took the kids. It's our last spring break altogether. So we took them down. And the day drinking had taken its toll after day three. So I, I think I, I think I got the 10th one down on day three. But after that I was a wash.
- [39:40]
Howard Beck
Can't do it like we used to.
- [39:42]
Zach Lowe
No, man, I, I, look, I mean, I don't know where to start with this, the whole Luca thing, obviously, I mean, Tim, I don't know if you know, but like Nico's an old school NBA, like he's like a made man in terms of, for some of us that had played in that era. So like, I clearly have a relationship with him and I, and have tried to defend him to whatever degree I can. Like there's. I don't. That's kind of indefensible when it comes right down to it. But I did make a comment and I'm curious. Maybe you've covered this and I haven't seen it, but like, you know, I made a comment when it first happened that, that if, if anyone were to know, you know, the deep, dark secrets, if Luca were to have any that would give you pause moving forward, it would be the team that had been with him forever. I still don't know that you can have enough to warrant the move. But I mean, I'm just fascinated. I haven't asked Mike, Finn or, or Nico. Like, and there's a part of me that just believes some. There has to be something else there. Like that it is it just about his weight and conditioning and wanting to have a, a beer or two after games. Like, I can't wrap my head around that well.
- [40:51]
Howard Beck
And you know, his postgame routine and my postgame routine are way too similar. We'll just say that fair.
- [40:58]
Zach Lowe
But, but, but like Tim, you, you know, this not to cut you off. It wasn't too long ago that that was all of our post game routines, right?
- [41:06]
Howard Beck
And, and like, you know, when Patrick Dumont, the, you know, the new owner, comes out a week after the trade, he's talking about, you know, the, the level of work ethic from these stars. And he cites Larry Bird. Hey, Larry Bird was an awesome player. Larry Bird loved drinking beer, right? And he mentioned Shaq. Like, Shaq is exhibit A of some dudes are so talented, they can play their way into shape basically every single season.
- [41:28]
Logan Murdoch
Yo, man, Jimmy Butler has a, has a Michelob Ultra after every game. I know, I see it. He does it in plain view of everyone in post game locker room. This is not, you know what I mean? This is not a thing, you know.
- [41:41]
Howard Beck
So, hey, look, the conditioning concerns, these aren't new with Luca. I mean they literally go way back to the like the pre draft process. That was the intel then, like, you know, hey, you know, likes to have a good time. You know, the condition is going to be a concern. That's part of the reason the Mavericks were able to get him at three after moving up from fives. You know, three teams passed on the guy. It's been a concern throughout his career. And there was definitely a frustration that man still like they felt like God when they shut him down with the right wrist injury, which he had a, he had a wrist injury, but it didn't need 11 days. It was, you know, get in shape. Similar to the ankle from J.K. and Nico's first year. It's like, can't believe we're doing this shit again. You know, that sort of a thing. And the calf stuff, it was four calf strains in 28 months. And then you worry about what's next. And Nico clearly is like. Nico's bet is that Luca's body is going to break down in his prime. Now I get it. And the other thing is there was a big time fraying of the relationship, especially between Luca and Nico. And it goes back to firing Casey Smith, who, you know, how well respected Casey Smith is, not just in the industry, but how critical he, he was to the, the fabric of the organization in Dallas. You know, hey, there's a reason Dirk Nowitzky hasn't been involved with the franchise since Casey was fired. Casey was also a huge part of the cultural transition that Luca made. Massive cultural transition. He's a teenager from Europe thrown into the NBA and Casey was with him every step of the way. You know, same with the strength coach, the massage therapist who ended up getting fired after the Finals. And so Nico replaced people who had become Luca's friends and his trusted advisors and his inner circle with people known around the organization. Nico, guys. And so that led to definitely some friction, some tension, and basically the disintegration of their relationship. There's a conditioning concerns. There was also five first team all NBA selections by the age of 25. There was also a 34, 10 and nine season last year and a run to the NBA Finals. But Nico was convinced that a supermax would be a terrible investment with Luca. And he convinced Patrick Dumont, who frankly doesn't know anything about basketball. He convinced Patrick Dumont this would be a terrible investment. Dumont and Nico did not seek the input of Mark Cuban whatsoever. You know, Cuban would have done everything he could to stop this from happening. He was basically informed when the deal was done. And I, I'll be honest with you, I just think that the fear of the supermax is really flawed logic, because to me, if you want to trade this guy, you've got to get him locked up to a supermax. You don't want to trade a guy like this in secret. You don't want to deflate his value and let Pelinka say, well, gee whiz, I don't know if he's. Will he be happy with the Lakers? Does he like sunshine? Does he like playing for the most glamorous thing ever. You know, I can't give you this other pick and this swap.
- [45:01]
Logan Murdoch
And Dalton, does he like fresh California air?
- [45:03]
Howard Beck
Like, yeah, yeah. So. But by keeping it secret, you deflate the value. If you supermax them, you got to live with them for another year and a half. Oh, well, maybe you go back to a finals or two. Maybe not. Even if, Even if he suffers major injury. Look what the Nets got for Kevin Durant. Into his 30s after an Achilles, after some other significant injuries. If you put Luke on the block, locked up for at least four years and just announced the league would train this guy before training camp. Has there ever been a bidding war like you would have had in that situation?
- [45:39]
Logan Murdoch
It would have been like if LeBron asked for a trade in his prime. I mean, ridiculous.
- [45:43]
Howard Beck
Yeah, so I, I really, you know, I think the. The desire to trade this guy is unprecedented. I mean, the only time we've seen anything close to this sort of a talent get traded at this point in their career was when the player basically said, hey, I'm leaving. You might as well get something for me now. That's not the case here. He was planning to play in Dallas for the long haul, and then just that. I, I don't understand the rush to do it right now, but Nico decided he wanted to be done with Luka and he wanted to get AD you talk about Nico's relationships throughout the league, aside from Kobe, probably tighter with AD Than any other player that he's dealt with in the course of his, you know, whatever two decade career as a Nike executive.
- [46:31]
Logan Murdoch
You talk, you brought, you bring up Kobe and you. And you write about this a lot in the book, which is his relationship with Kobe. Right. But, like, how much does that educate, for better or worse, like, how he sees the game and how he team builds. Right? Because, I mean, he's, He. He's seen firsthand how great Kobe's work ethic is. And he. I'm sure he wants that in every single player that he puts into the building, but also, like, that's still Luka Doncic. So, like, what. What kind of. What does he need to. What does Nico need to figure out in all of this before time runs out?
- [47:03]
Howard Beck
Well, you know, the decision is made. So, you know, and. And his decision was this guy does not fit the culture that he wanted as the leader of. As the face of a franchise, as a leader of a team. Although, you know, Kyrie was the leader in the locker room, to be frank, but Luca didn't fit the culture that Nico envisions. And it's not just work ethic, but it's discipline. You know, it's diet. It's the commitment to conditioning. And look, man, like, Dirk Nowitzki epitomized that. And if you'd asked if. If they would have sought Dirk's input on this, Dirk would have been like, what in the Are you doing? Like, no, don't trade that guy. I mean, you. Dirk is just flabbergasted that this happened. Dirk never had a shred of a doubt that Luca was a worthy successor to him in terms of, you know, here's the torch. Run with it. And, like, Nico definitely uses Kobe as the standard, right? And Kobe obviously, like, you talk about it, you know, his work ethics, legendary. His approach is legendary. I will say this, though. Kobe essentially blessed Luca as, hey, this dude, you know, kind of welcoming in. Into the elite tier. Like, you basically acknowledge Luca as a peer when, you know, the last time that Kobe went to a Lakers game, you know, with Gigi right there, they went to see Gigi's favorite player, Luka Doncic, you know, and that's when Kobe's sitting courtside and Luke is about to inbound the ball, and Kobe starts talking trash to him in Slovenia, you know, and they had that moment where, you know, there's the mural in LA where they're. They're dapping up after the game. And. And. And so Kobe recognized this guy as like, dude, this is one of those types of talents. You know, LeBron did that very early in. In Luca's career. You know, the. The title of chapter seven of my book is bad, because that's what LeBron called him, you know, for the ESPN cameras caught it after a matchup very early in Luca's second season. So, I mean, I. The condition concerns, all that stuff is absolutely legitimate, but when you have these sort of legends acknowledging very early on that this guy is one of us, I just think the talent and the production outweighs those concerns. Because, look, man, we're not talking about potential. He's proven it. He's taken a team to the finals. He took a very different, completely different supporting cast to the conference finals a couple of years ago. Has it gotten to the top of the mountain in the NBA? No, but it's a really short list of guys who did that in their early 20s as the best player on a team. An extremely.
- [49:58]
Logan Murdoch
And that conference finals team in 22 wasn't, like, the greatest bunch. Like, it had Jalen Brunson on there, right? But they went and they went and beat the 60 win sons in seven games largely because of Luca and Jalen. But like he had the ability to, and similar to LeBron, to just uplift the rest of a team. The rest of the team that may not be as good without him, right? Like he, he's able to do that and that's a rare thing for a player to be able to do.
- [50:28]
Howard Beck
And he's also got one of the most ruthlessly competitive streaks that I've ever seen. And that is Kobe esque, right? I mean you talk about that sun series, remember they're down oh two, right? And they're. Then they're down three, two. And that's when Luca, you know, walks through the tunnel in Phoenix talking about everybody act tough when they up and then it's game seven in, in Phoenix.
- [50:53]
Logan Murdoch
Roger loves that.
- [50:55]
Howard Beck
Out of the entire Suns franchise, out of the entire city of Phoenix, this dude outscored the Phoenix Suns by himself on the road in a game seven first half, right? And like just completely dominated and was sneering. And this was a team that had the best record in the league that year. You know, last year in, in Minnesota, game five, elimination on the road. Like this guy thrives in those kind of situation. He thrives as the enemy. And he just loves like he'll find, he'll look for somebody in the stands. Don't be the main character is the fan. Who's, who's.
- [51:37]
Logan Murdoch
Wait, wasn't there a time, I do remember a time though, Tim, where he kind of got at you might have been during the 22 playoffs. I remember he saw you and he got at you about something that you said or like we're gonna kick their ass or something like you picked against them. And in the 22 playoffs there have.
- [51:52]
Howard Beck
Been times when, there's been a few occasions when we've kind of gone back and forth in press conference settings when he didn't like reporting by me. By the way, all reporting that I continue to stand by and was completely factual, accurate and in the proper context here nor there. But what you're talking about, this is a, this is actually a good story and it's in the book. So again, The Suns were 64 win team, had the best record in the league coming off of finals appearance, you know, Devin Booker's ball and Chris Paul, still Chris Paul, like that was a hell of a team. And so the ESPN predictions, you know where I think there's 21 ESPN reporters, analysts, whatever they predict each series, there were 21 Suns logos and a whole bunch of white space on the math side, 21 nil. And so, you know, that becomes a thing on social media. It became a thing in the Mavs group chat, like the player group chat, right? And so it's game. It's shoot around a game one. Before game one in Phoenix, you know, Luke was doing his thing where he's sitting on the sideline, you know, flinging up shots from, from the courtside seats, you know, just mess around like he, like he always does. And I'm walking to. JK's going to speak like mid court. So, you know, I. I'm walking by pause. Luca gets a shot up. I take a couple steps and he goes, hey. And Luca, this was the first time. I'm kid you not, this was the end of his fourth year. This was the first time he ever initiated small talk with me. You know, he's not a guy who loves interacting with the media. So I'm like, what's up? He said, he said, I heard you pick the Suns. I said, oh, okay, now I see why he wants to talk. And I'm like, and I picked. I had picked sons in seven. So I said, yeah, you know, I'm sorry if it offends you that I think it's going to be a competitive series with the team that had the best record in the, in the league this year. He goes, oh, no, I'm not offended. And then he. And then we had a little comment. He said, he just said, I thought you were with us. Yeah. And I said, no, no Mickey Mouse signs my checks. Mark Cuban does not. And I kind of brief explanation of there's a difference between covering a team and being part of the team. Like, I work for espn. I don't work for the Dallas Mavericks. He said, okay, okay. Then he goes, we'll see. And it was just kind of dismissed me, right? That was interesting. And then game seven, I mean, they just absolutely blew out the Suns on their home floor, like, really humiliated Phoenix. It was a hell of a series win by the Mavericks. Like I said, Luke was just absolutely dominant in that game. So he comes into his press conference and I'm sitting in, you know, kind of off to the side of the room. He just looks at me points because told you. And I said, I changed my prediction. Halftime.
- [54:56]
Zach Lowe
That's great.
- [54:58]
Howard Beck
That's great.
- [54:58]
Zach Lowe
He. He. I mean, look, I mean, I've played with some of and played for, played with, played against some of the European players that come from that Slavic region. Those dudes are, are cut different like that. So, like when you say, you know, Kobe stamped him, I found that interesting when you were saying like, you know, Kobe stamped him and then Lebron, like real always recognizes real. It doesn't take long for you to see that in someone, especially when you have those similar traits. Right. And Luca clearly has all of that. And I not to go back, but it just. Logan, you said something and we had talked about it, you know, months ago about, about Nico and being in that front row seat to watching the Kobe maniacal work ethic and squeezing every ounce of talent out of. Out of that. Like, that's a lot of times an unrealistic expectation. Like we talk about, we talk about Kobe like people talk about the Mamba mentality. People don't live that. Like Kobe lived that. Like that. That is a very, very, very high bar to set now. It's something to aspire and to try to achieve, but like he was on a different level. So like holding others to that standard can be dangerous because, you know, to your point, Tim, like, there are a lot of. There are a lot of dudes in this league. I played with them, the Boris Diaz of the world, that if you said, hey, on a scale of one to ten, how hard does he work? You might say two. Like, you might. But like, he's so. He's so talented that it doesn't really matter. And this just takes me to an overall point. We're all guilty of it to some degree. Like, and it's. It's a hard thing, especially when you're in that business setting and you're running billion dollar, multimillion dollar companies is like taking the personal out of it.
- [56:50]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [56:51]
Zach Lowe
You know, like, because from all, from all that you said about the, you know, the getting rid of Casey and moving the staff around and bringing your people in, it sounds like at least somewhere deep down it became personal and that's. That you can't do that.
- [57:06]
Howard Beck
I think, I think that's a fair and accurate characterization. And like again, the conditioning stuff, they're legitimate concerns. The calf strains forward to the same calf in 28 months. I understand those concerns. The weight fluctuation, all that. The work ethic thing is, is. Is interesting. Does he work like you want in terms of like a commitment to conditioning? No. But you don't develop the kind of skill he has by being lazy. You know what I mean? Like, there aren't 6 foot 8, 250 pound dudes with that kind of handle, with that kind of touch with the, you know, with, with the bag that he has. And you don't just develop that by chilling on the couch all summer long. And so the thing with Luke is you have to make everything competitive. You know, they've got to find. You got to find a way to make his conditioning a competitive thing where he's competing against somebody else, where there's a winner and there's a loser. You know, it's like he always, he'll play a lot in the stay ready games, right, with guys who are coming back off of injuries or who are, you know, low minutes guys, those games, you know, Roger, they, they like staffers in those games because he'd rather get out there and hoop and compete than jump on the treadmill so that like his in season condition will be the state ready games because everything has to be competitive. Every drill, if you want him engaged in practice, has to be competitive. And so it even like his commitment to the national team, Slovenian national team, which I wrote about that because I do think it really illustrates that this guy does have a strong natural sense of loyalty. But you know, there's been like, there's concerns of, hey, wear and tear on the body. Like, you know, going into last season, he played in the World cup, went all the way through, led the league in minutes, regular season, playoffs combined, and then banged up as he was jumped right into an Olympic qualifying tournament. So there's concern about wear and tear, but then there's also like, well, at least you know, he's running up and down when he's playing for the Slovenian national team, so. But again, the guy loves hoops, loves competing. You know, it's like he does have that kind of Jordanesque Kobe esque competitive drive. Like, you know, the whole thing with the security guard flipping a quarter, you know, shrug the Jordan shrug. Like, you know, Luke will compete his ass off in ping pong or in spike ball or, you know, like the bubble was great for Luca because all it was was hooping, hanging out and playing other games. He has that competitive drive. It just doesn't. He, he doesn't prepare the way that you would want in terms of the mundane, boring stuff if he had like Dirk's approach, I mean, my goodness. But again, doing it. The other thing is, honestly, success came so quick, quickly and so easily to him. This dude was an MVP candidate as a 20 year old in his second season in the NBA. So it's kind of hard to say, hey, dude, like, you got to take a different approach, you know. What, what do you mean I got to take a different approach? You know, like, dude, I'm A superstar who can't even buy a beer yet in America. He found. He found his way to grab a few beers that year.
- [60:33]
Zach Lowe
But, yeah, I don't think he had a problem finding the case. But. But we get it.
- [60:37]
Logan Murdoch
How. Where do we go from here? We've mentioned Cuban, we mentioned Dirk, and you lay it out in your book, they're not, like, really that much of a figureheads in the Mavericks organization. That much I would say.
- [60:51]
Howard Beck
They've got no juice, which is wild.
- [60:54]
Logan Murdoch
To even say, but like any other.
- [60:57]
Howard Beck
Rich dude who has a courtside season ticket.
- [60:59]
Zach Lowe
Dude, that's so sad.
- [61:01]
Logan Murdoch
But, like, me and Rod talk about this all the time. Like, it's not just, like, the players that are on the court that make the team go. It's the alumni base. It's the. The figureheads, the people that have institutional knowledge of the organization. So, like, if you don't have a Mark Cuban that you're listening to, you don't have the face of your entire franchise and dark Naviti that you're talking to. Like, are the Mavericks just in a rudderless place going forward? Like, what. What do they. Who are they listening to? Because it just feels like this was a land grab for the new ownership and everything else. You figure it out. It's fine. I don't really care. Nico has, like, an outsized amount of power. It feels like, in there, for better or worse, what happens over the next few months. Because, like, they just seem like a rudderless organization where they don't have. They're not doing the things that a. That a respected professional organization do anymore. And they. Which is sad because the Mavs are one of those teams where you had an institution.
- [62:02]
Howard Beck
Well, and, you know, to use Patrick Dumont's own words, in Nico, we Trust, you know, he has completely given absolute and total control of basketball operations to Nico Harrison, who. Look, when he came in as a general manager, when you're the general manager under Mark Cuban, you're not really the general manager manager. Like, everybody understands it's. It's always going to be Cuban running the show, right? Until it wasn't. Until Cuban sold the franchise. And Cuban insists that there was some sort of gentleman's agreement between him and the Addison Dumont families and that he was going to keep basketball control, but it wasn't written. And honestly, I don't know if that's true. I don't know if Cuban's completely full of crap.
- [62:46]
Logan Murdoch
Did he convince himself that he was. He did have basketball operations? Like, I. I just. Where. Where's the Disconnect there.
- [62:52]
Howard Beck
Well, it wasn't in writing, so there was no, like. No, it. It. It wasn't official. And if he, if he still had basketball control, it didn't last much longer than the ink dried. I mean, it was like la. And so last year, the deadline was Nico Harrison's deadline. And like, those moves were questioned at the time. But getting Daniel Gafford giving up your 2028 swap to OKC to facilitate it, that ended up being a key move. Getting PJ Washington giving up your 2027 first rounder Charlotte do it, that ended up being a great move. He put together this athletic supporting cast that really fit well around Luka. You surrounded him with athletes and lob threats and defenders where this was the team that was the number one defense in the league down the stretch of the season, that continued going in the playoffs, you know, and everything fit, and then you change your mind. But the fact that he was able to convince Dumont to be done with Luka was because Dumont wasn't seeking other opinions. And they cut Cuban completely out of the loop. Also cut Cuban completely out of the loop in terms of, like, the. The managing of the relationships between Luca and Lucas, people and the Mavericks run office. The Mavericks revamped, you know, health and performance staff. Cuban basically said, hey, do you want me to handle that? Do you want me to kind of be the go between? They said, no, you know, we don't want that. And I'll be honest with you, when I found out that Cuban was done as far as control of basketball operations, I thought that was a good thing for the Mavericks because the guy had a lot of missteps. You know, the. The KP trade blew up in. In the Mass phase. I do put the bungling of the Jalen Brunson situation, from literally the signing of his rookie deal that allowed him to be unrestricted at the end of it, to not giving him an extension, to not trying to outbid the Knicks. I put that all on Cuban. I never imagined that the Mavericks would have been better off with Cuban being in control until the day Luca was traded. And then hours later, you've got Nico in Cleveland, you know, sitting in that. It wasn't even a press conference. It's like the first half of J Kid's regular coach pregame availability and explaining that they're built to win now and in the future. And then clarifying by the future, he means the next three to four years. Then you start to do the math. You're like, hold on, you're out 27 28, 29 and 30 as far as control of your own first round capital. So you're saying this window you've built expires just as the credit card bills do? Like, dude, it's, it's illogical.
- [65:40]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's wild. I do want to ask a couple questions. Just about. Let's go to Los Angeles. I want to ask about Luca in Los Angeles. What have you thought of his first two months there? Just as a guy that has seen him play for the start of his career, what, what is it like to kind of see him from afar now and what his. And how does that educate how you think he's going to go in the short term in LA right now?
- [66:05]
Howard Beck
Well, I've been actually surprised by how much success, immediate success, the Lakers have had without Luca playing at like a full blown Luka level. Like we've seen glimpses of that. But dude, again, this guy averaged damn near 34 point, triple double last year. And you know, he was coming off of the longest injury absence of his career. The emotional devastation of being dumped and frankly kind of publicly shamed. And then, you know, all, everything that goes along with the mid season trade. New team, new city, you know, new everything. And so the first, I don't know, three, four weeks of Luke in a Lakers uniform was kind of training camp mode for him. Trying to get his legs under him, you know, trying to get his life in order, getting used to, you know, all the new pieces around him. But like, you know, the, the fit with LeBron, that was never a concern. I mean, talking about two of the smartest players in the league today and, and in a while and Honestly, I think LeBron benefits greatly from having Luka there, just like Kyrie did last year or. Look, man, Luke is going to have the ball in his hands. Like if you run, you're going to get a lot of easy buckets, you know, you're going to get your touches. But Luke is going to control things. And suddenly these hall of Famers got fresh legs in the fourth quarter. And I think you've seen LeBron benefit from that. You saw Kyrie as one of the best closers in the league last year. I honestly, I didn't anticipate that Austin Reeves would continue ascending, you know, playing next to Luka and LeBron. But that's fit, that's clicked, I still think. And Luca, you see flashes, you see glimpses. I mean the other day, especially the first half and okc. Holy moly. You see the joy coming back in him. I think he's emotionally gotten over the trade. And, look, it helps. J.J. redick's a buddy of his. I think that relationship's been good. You know, LeBron's a guy looked up to. You know, I mentioned Finney Smith is one of his favorite teammates. They didn't ship him to Siberia either. Like, you know, there are perks to living in la as a Los Angeles Laker, I still think they're probably a transaction cycle or two away from being a real championship threat. Maybe they'll prove me wrong, but I do think they've got to get that rim running, rim protecting big. I also think those type of guys will be lining up to try to play for the Lakers next to Luka Doncic.
- [68:44]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I agree with that. I. Of all the things you said, the Austin Reeves thing has been fascinating to me, just because while I totally could see LeBron and Luka working together, Austin's one of those guys who. He actually likes to have the ball in his hands a bit. Like, he can play off of it, but he does so much good stuff with it that I thought someone would have to give in that equation, and I just figured it would be Austin. And he's. He's played fantastic. I, too, agree with you. I think that, like, I give them a puncher's chance, especially in the playoffs, as Luka continues to. Kind of. Continues to kind of get over it. When you get traded, that lingers, dude. That's like a. I mean, that's a. That's a breakup. Like, you know, it's like you've dated someone for five years, and then you run into somebody two days later, and you expect to have a healthy relationship right off into the sunset. That's hard to do. There's lingering stuff, but as he continues to get over that, I see them being, you know, real formidable in the west, but I do think that they are a piece away. I think they. They. Especially with. With. We've talked about defensively, sometimes, like, you need that protection when. When you're built the way they're built. Right. You got to have that guy. And it also loosens everything up on offense. So I just would agree with all of that.
- [70:00]
Howard Beck
Yeah. And as far as the breakup goes, like, especially in a case like this where, like, Luca was completely blindsided, like, that was an intentional strategy by Nico Harrison.
- [70:12]
Zach Lowe
You know, it was kind of dirty. It was kind of. Look, like I've said this, Nico's my guy, but, like, if I'm being. If I'm keeping It a bean. Like that's, that's.
- [70:21]
Howard Beck
He did it. The way I've put it is after six years of that franchise kissing Lucas butt. And I would say, you know, rightfully so, given his status as one of those top tier superstars. They stabbed him in the back. I mean, that is exact. And like there was no question about Lucas. Like, there was friction with him and Nico and there's some frame relationships. And honestly, J Kid, you know, J kid was frustrated with all the same conditioning issues and all that too. But there was no question that Luka was committed to being in Dallas long term. None. The guy was absolutely going to sign the richest contract in NBA history this summer. He was closing on what was going to be his American forever home. He got his house broken into. You know, when there was that all these pro athletes getting their houses broken into. Actually it was right after, right after Christmas. And he was getting treatment at the practice facility at the time. They got him at his house. And so he was moving into this palace with like this unbelievable security system was closing on the house. The man lost his earnest money. That's how far. That's how far. And. And the Mavericks knew he was closing on the house. Don't tell me you weren't sure if he was resigning this summer. They, he absolutely. They weren't scared that Luca, you know, about whether or not he would resign? Like, they weren't scared, oh, he might not. They were scared of giving him the contract nuts.
- [71:50]
Logan Murdoch
Wild. I do want to ask you a question just about Luca's relationship with relationships with front offices. And he has a history of kind of butting heads, right? Like, not before Nico Harrison. It was Donnie Nelson. And I'm curious, like, what do the Lakers brass need to watch out for? Because this is Lucas team, right? Like, this is. This is something that. This is a partnership long term between him and the Lakers. What do the Lakers front office need? Is there any red flags that they need to worry about? Not just in terms of personality. We've seen this in the past with him. How do you think that they need to approach the relationship with Luca going forward in this partnership in the next few years?
- [72:37]
Howard Beck
Well, Luka butted heads with Bob Vulgaris, who is the so called shadow gm, not with Donnie, that was. Who at the time had Cuban's ear, obviously butted heads with. With Nico. Really butted heads with Rick Carlisle. I do put frankly the majority of the. Of the fault there on Rick who. You know, I write about a team meeting literally a week into Luca's career where Rick permanently cracked the foundation of their relationship. Is there some maintenance involved with Luca? Sure do. I think is. It's, like, extraordinarily high compared to a lot of other superstars around the league. No, I don't. Honestly, I had. I had somebody, one of Lucas supporters here. Ask me rhetorically, who do you think Miami would have rather dealt with for the first half of the season? Luka Doncic or Jimmy Butler? You know, I mean, seriously, like, okay, there's a little bit of maintenance now. I was in LA recently and it's post game and, you know, waiting to go to the press conference room. And you know where you guys. You stop in the hallway, right by the hallway to the locker room, right? And there's this, you know, guy with his arm around Luca walking to the locker room and kind of wearing a tight little jacket with sleeves rolled up with Rob Pelinka. Oh, Rob have one of those fancy jackets on with the arm around one.
- [74:03]
Logan Murdoch
Of them leather jackets that don't fit quite right, but it's $2,000. Yeah.
- [74:07]
Howard Beck
It wasn't the Fonzie jacket that he wore to the press conference, but the point. And I saw that, I'm like, wow, what a contrast that is. You know, Rob walking the locker room, arm around him, whispering sweet nothings in his ear to, frankly, zero communication this year between Luca and Nico. So Pelinka, Jeannie Buss, you know, they understand, hey, it's got to be a priority, like it was for Mark Cuban for, you know, five and a half years, six years. It's got to be a priority to make sure that Luka is as comfortable as possible. And that's not unique to Luka, you know, hey, welcome in his body team. How can we help you? How can we work with you again? I think the fact that Luka, they were very briefly teammates, Luka and JJ Redick, but they really clicked. They really bonded. The fact that luka went on JJ's podcast twice tells you how much he really likes and respects the guy, because, hell, I couldn't get Luca to say hi to me unless I picked against him in a playoff series. But in all seriousness, they've got a relationship there, and they've embraced the people around Luca who are important to him. And honestly, I think that the Lakers are going about it in exactly the right way. I think that it really is a good situation for him. I think Luke is going to have a long, successful, mostly happy tenure with the Lakers. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but Luka, by no means is perfect. He can be petulant. His flaws are obvious. Right. But I would say the relationships that went south with him in Dallas, I wouldn't put the fault primarily on him in any of those situations.
- [75:59]
Zach Lowe
You know, it's, It's. You said that, that the, the managing of, Of. Of a Luca is not unique to Luca, and, and. And, you know, making sure that someone's feeling wanted and respected in the way that organizations. I would, I would argue that's not unique to the NBA. That's not unique to sports in general. That's. That's life, dude. When you have brilliance in, in your company, like, you make sure that shit's taken care of. You make sure, you know, provided it's. It's not toxic and, and you know, it could still produce for you. That's your job when you're a manager in some capacity. Right? Like, that's what you're supposed to do. I do think this is interesting, Logan, because you said this is a Lucas team, and I don't think it is, like, right now, like, as long as LeBron James, it's his in the future.
- [76:46]
Howard Beck
Sure.
- [76:47]
Zach Lowe
And this is where it's interesting for me. Like, I, I mean, it's just a thought, right? Like, you could say what you want, but when LeBron James is on a roster, it's his team.
- [76:55]
Howard Beck
I, I've, I've.
- [76:56]
Zach Lowe
I've borne witness to that. I've been sitting there when, when LeBron James enters a room and anyone in that room other than LeBron thinks they're going to call a shot or set tone or dictate culture, doesn't happen. Right? So as long as he's there, it's his team and their ability to kind of navigate and, and just kind of like, you know, phase out and phase in and blend their two careers. I think is, is. Is. Will be a huge part of how successful that winds up being. Because in LeBron's absence, Luca in LA, I agree 1,000%. Great career. We're playing incredible talent, one of the best franchises ever. But this little window of time where, where, you know, and it's interesting because when things are good, things are good, right? And then their ability, Luca and LeBron, to kind of, you know, share and then the, the organization's ability to kind of not show their hand in terms of favoritism in a way that causes any kind of friction is going to be really important in this window.
- [77:57]
Howard Beck
Well, and, and who knows how long the window might last, because LeBron, I know how old he is. He's still playing at an all NBA level, he's still a lot of times maybe the best athlete on the floor. But I don't think you necessarily want Luka to be the guy who dictates culture, right? Kyrie was the leader last year. Brunson was that even kill. It was Lucas team, and it was Lucas team with Kyrie. But Brunson, when they went to the conference finals, he was that even keel compliment to Luka, who Luca is. He operates in emotional extremes. It's joy, it's wrath, it's anger, it's agony, it's screaming at the referees. It's celebrating, you know, like there's not.
- [78:41]
Zach Lowe
It's volatile.
- [78:42]
Howard Beck
You need that even keel compliment. And like the fact that, hey, LeBron is going to be the face of things in terms of who the media goes to and like, kind of the team spokesman, trust me, Luca is more than happy with that. And then LeBron. Look, LeBron understands the benefits of having Luka, and LeBron understands the importance clearly of empowering Luca. And so I don't see them being. And just like Kyrie, you know, Luke and Kyrie, they kind of had to figure things out for that first year. And it was more so too much mutual respect, kind of a your turn, my turn thing. Also, the supporting cast around them sucked. Once they addressed that, suddenly they won a lot more games. But for LeBron, he is immediately empowering Luka. It's not like, this is my offense. I'll give you a little bit. No, it's like, hey, here's the keys. I'm playing off of you. And then again, he's fresh for the fourth quarters. And so I see LeBron's presence and just again, the mutual respect they have for each other. Like, Luca had so much respect for LeBron. The first time Luka played LeBron, he's hanging out outside the home locker room at the Staples center so we can ask for his autographed jersey. Like, you know, like a little kid sometime that he's done that. So again, I. I think that's going to. I think it has been to this point and will continue to be a healthy dynamic. And like, Luca's been through, like the experience Luca went through with kp, where it was kind of a tug of war, who's the man, you know? And then kp, the experience KP had there, I think Luca learned from that, and I think KP learned from that. I think Porzingis, the success Porzinks has had with the Celtics is kind of a complimentary star. I think that was paved by the disappointment that he had in Dallas. And you know, again, Luca, now he's 26 years old, he's been through some stuff in the NBA. I don't see him getting, and I, I don't see him or LeBron letting ego get in the way of, you know, what can be and should be an extremely successful partnership. And they're empowering Austin Reaves at the same time. And by the way, Austin Reeves, if you're putting your third best defensive player on him, probably going to be a mismatch. And we're seeing that, no doubt.
- [81:04]
Zach Lowe
I got, I got one more question about that because I, I agree with you. I, I, I, I think, but you might not have a great answer and may neither be here or there, made the argument that Luca, someone who we talked about some of the flaws in terms of conditioning and so on and so forth, with someone like LeBron at this point in his career, is he the type of person that LeBron. Because LeBron's maniacal too, in terms of taking care of the body, the detail with diet, rest, preparedness, like all of those things are, are great habits. And I'm trying to think to Luca's first few years in the league. I mean, he had Dirk, but Dirk was, you know, Dirk was broken down.
- [81:50]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [81:51]
Zach Lowe
Like he was.
- [81:52]
Howard Beck
Dirk absolutely could have provided in the roadmap and was happy to look. Kyrie's routine and his approach is ordinarily disciplined. And, you know, that's Kyrie's learned over the course of his career. He's, he's just as, you know, maniacal about taking care of his body. So my point is this. It ain't like Luca hasn't had road maps or he hasn't had people that, whose brains he could pick on the subject. Now, what he's never had is blatant disrespect, is being slapped in the face for the world to see. So if, if this slap in the face from the Mavericks organization doesn't get Luca to lock into the mundane stuff, this stuff you don't see, it's behind the scenes. It's, it's diet, it's conditioning, you know, all those sort of things, then nothing ever will. And like watching LeBron taking after him, sure, that can help. But it's, it's a commitment thing. It's a, you know, making it a priority. And maybe he does and maybe he doesn't. Honestly, I think either way, the guy's gonna, it's like, is he going to have an all time great career Is he going to have an all time greatest kind of career? That's, that's really what we're talking about here.
- [83:08]
Logan Murdoch
We're talking to you. On the eve of Luca's return to Dallas, what do you expect the reaction to be for him?
- [83:16]
Howard Beck
Well, it'll be a sellout crowd we haven't seen much of since, since this trade was made. And it's going to be surreal. It's going to be, you know, everybody. There's going to be just a ton of Luka jerseys, which are still are, but especially in this case, Mavericks jersey, Slovenia jerseys, Lakers jerseys. Almost everyone in the stands is going to be wanting to see Lucas score 50, 60, 70 points. It's going to be a celebration of, of six and a half years of absolute spectacular brilliance. And then it's going to be the morning that it wasn't a hell of a lot more than that. It's going to be surreal. And honestly, I don't know. I've seen how Luca responds to being the enemy in a road arena. I'm not sure how he's going to respond to kind of the emotional tugging at his heart in this situation. Again, I don't think the Mavericks are going to allow him to have a 50, 60, 70 point performance. I do think they will double team the hell out of him and basically make him give the ball up as much as possible. But I don't know. I really thought the first time they saw each other, which was in LA on February 25, I thought we were going to see kind of that full blown wrath from Luca. We got a glimpse of it in the first quarter, but he was still really working through the emotions at that time. And you know, at the end after the game, he said, hey, I'm just glad this is over. And you could kind of see like there was still kind of a cloud hovering over him. Emotionally, I think he has found his joy with the Lakers. But again, I. It's hard for me to predict how he's going to respond to such a unique and surreal scene that I'm anticipating we'll see at the ac.
- [85:15]
Zach Lowe
That's going to be really tough. I mean, I don't like, clearly not Luke or in any sense or whatever, but like when I got traded from the Suns and that was at the place that I felt like was kind of my career place. The sons came to us the first time and that was like angry, Fuck you. You know, like you got me when I was still raw with emotion. Right. Kind of like what happened to Luca and then we went to Phoenix a couple months later, a month or so later, and that one hurt. Like, that's when the emotion, like, because the support, like, you see all the people that you know, you. That's your. That's your life. You're walking into those arena, you're saying hi to the same people every day. You got your routine with them. You got all the fans that you basically see every home game. You got your sections and stuff and, and seeing all of those people, that opens up a little bit of wound. That's a tough night. Like, he can still. He'll be great, but it's tough.
- [86:14]
Howard Beck
Well, and there's the tribute video, which is going to be like, let's be honest, that's going to be really awkward. Like this franchise is honoring a dude who, you know by his mid-20s was an absolute legend, but they dumped him.
- [86:30]
Zach Lowe
But yeah, what if, what, what if. What if my dude just doesn't do the tribute video? What if Nico, what if Nico, that.
- [86:38]
Howard Beck
That would be them changing their mind. I have been told. Yes. So I know this. A tribute video has been made, okay? Now if they change it, maybe there's a last minute change of mind.
- [86:53]
Zach Lowe
He can't do that. He wouldn't get out of the arena, dude. He can't do that.
- [86:56]
Howard Beck
Well, I tell you, that would set an NBA record for pettiness.
- [87:02]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, that's saying something. That's saying a lot.
- [87:06]
Howard Beck
It is a league of pettiness.
- [87:08]
Logan Murdoch
That would take the cake for Nico, though. Last question for you for the Mavericks point of view, like what they're going in the summer. Kyrie's injured. He's probably going to be out for a year. AD is theoretically going to be healthy. You don't never know with AD but like, what are their summer plans? What are they going to do? They're going to go after kd. What are they. What do the Mavericks do over the summer that's going to at least make them a formidable roster. And time for Kyrie to come back whenever he does. Like, what? Well, what's next?
- [87:39]
Howard Beck
Well, and, and you know, the question that's asked a lot is, is Nico's job in jeopardy? Like, people around the league ask me that. Obviously that's, you know, the fire. Nico chants from the fans are frequent and all over the DFW area. All I can say about that is Patrick Dumont has voiced strong public support. So again, like, you have to allow leeway for people to change their minds. But certainly it seems that Nico Harrison will continue to be making the decisions and Then, like, look, I don't. I don't know. Like, we don't know how much time Kyrie's going to miss next season, but he's not going to be back to start. We know that. You know, obviously you've got to get some more creation, some more ball handling in. Can that be like a short term, kind of stopgap type thing? Like, you know, a name that has popped in my mind would be like a Dennis Schroeder. You know, I. I would highly recommend something along those lines. But then, hey, one thing we've seen from Nico throughout the course of his time in Dallas is that the man's not afraid to take big swings. Like, his tendency is to take big, big swings. I have been told that the Mavericks will not be aggressive suitors in the Kevin Durant trade market. I don't know that I necessarily believe that. You know, I'm not reporting it. I've just been told that there's a difference, you know? So I guess my. My short term answer is we'll see. It's going to be interesting for sure.
- [89:13]
Logan Murdoch
Tim McMahon. Catch him on ESPN. Read his book, the Wonder Boy, Luka Doncicius and the Curse of Greatness. This was a treat, man. I told you. We've been trying to have you on for years. I've been. Every time I see you in press, press areas, I'm like, yo, when you coming on? I don't know. When you coming on? I don't know. Then he came in the top of the year. I saw him, he's like, yo, I come in the pot. I was like, let's do it. So Tim McMahon, one of the best in the business, man. Thanks so much for coming on, buddy.
- [89:43]
Howard Beck
I feel like I'm a real one now. Like, I. I've been stamped.
- [89:48]
Logan Murdoch
Goddamn right. Goddamn right.
- [89:50]
Zach Lowe
Welcome, Tim.
- [89:51]
Howard Beck
Welcome. I appreciate that.
- [89:55]
Logan Murdoch
That has been another edition of Real Ones. We have Howard Beck back on Fridays, which means our mailbag is next Friday or this Friday coming up, which means Real ones mailbag@gmail.com. real ones mailbag, gmail.com Real ones mailbag gmail.com Roger is making a confused face like he might not be there. Who knows? Anyways, we will see you guys Friday. Talk to you guys soon. Ah, all the shits. Bye. Must be 21 years and older and president. Select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and older and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or visit rghelp.com call 1-888-7-897777 or visit ccpg.org backslash chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-87-7-8, Hope NY or text Hope NY in New York.