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One-Month Awards: Best Player, Biggest Disappointment, and More | Group Chat| Ringer NBA
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Chat. I am Justin Barrier. And joining me, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Mann, potting at noon Pacific on this Sunday morning, afternoon, whatever you want to call it. Perfect prime podcasting hours. I would say he's always got something.
- [00:27]
B
To say about the schedule.
- [00:29]
A
That's right.
- [00:30]
B
I'm glad that it's finally good enough for you, Justin. I'm thrilled that you're finally in your actual zone.
- [00:36]
A
Well, we've been talking about this on and off pretty much the entire season at this point, and I have something I want to pitch to you guys. A way for adults to play at their peak throughout their day. You ready for this?
- [00:50]
B
I'm waiting with bated breath.
- [00:51]
C
Not really, but let's go. Yeah.
- [00:54]
A
Here's the shark tank idea. Coffee microdosing. So you think intrigued.
- [01:00]
B
You think you've just invented the idea of the espresso shot?
- [01:04]
A
No, it's not about the. About the intensity of the caffeine. It's about how and how often you drink the caffeine.
- [01:13]
B
What's your cadence?
- [01:14]
C
I was gonna say there's one cell in Europe. I don't. Their schedule as we.
- [01:18]
A
It's true. But I think most people, when they reach for the coffee, it's one per, perhaps two big old mugs. Right. You're getting the venti, the grandes. I'm talking half a cup or maybe even a quarter of a cup every two hours, which is what kind of. I've fallen back into. So I drink coffee throughout the day now, but in shorter quantities. In smaller quantities, I'm feeling sprightly.
- [01:44]
B
I think what you're describing is just getting old and washed and needing more coffee.
- [01:49]
A
Sure. But everyone presumably listening to this probably also feels the same.
- [01:54]
C
Well, there is a. There is a point where you. Your washness makes you start thinking about when you should stop drinking it during the day. I know other people who just plow through that and they don't care, but I've never slept well, and I'm like, I'm always. I had that conversation with myself recently. I was like, you should probably stop at, like, noon, Kyle, because. But my thing is, Justin, I graze all day on, like, a lar. I'll go get a large cup of coffee, a black coffee, because, you know, that's. You know, it's really better for your teeth to get a little cream in it, though. Meg was telling me the other day, and to drink it through a straw.
- [02:25]
A
I'm. I'm failing on that front with a new study on coffee every two weeks that contradicts the previous study. So I believe that.
- [02:31]
B
I think that one on staining your teeth is pretty consistent. The straw does help.
- [02:35]
A
Yeah, my teeth are gorgeous. Thank you very much.
- [02:38]
B
No doubt.
- [02:38]
C
Well, but I sip on it through the day. So are you just saying I'm like, am I gross because I'm like letting one coffee sit all day or do I need fresh, fresh little mini coffee every two hours and where am I?
- [02:50]
A
I think it'd be preferred, but that's, that's more up to someone's taste and preferences. I think you're just plotting it out through the days. Like I'm drinking coffee sometimes late afternoon, even in into the evening. Part of that is because I no longer feel it anymore, but I think I can go at any time of day. And so I'm just like slowly, steadily parsing it out throughout the entire day.
- [03:11]
B
I still maintain that you're like one of the tech bros that accidentally invented the public library. Like you're really just taking us back to the place we've already. But I support you and your personal choices, Justin.
- [03:21]
A
Thank you. This is what we do here. Basically just hold my hand and walk through the hellscape that is life together. You're listening to the Ringer NBA show presented by FanDuel. FanDuel now displays your bet directly on your phone's lock screen. And with the latest updates to the live events and player pages, it's never been easier to be part of the game. And Missouri, get excited because FanDuel's coming your way December 1st. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 plus in present in select states or 18 plus in present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. All right, one month awards on the docket today. We're going to go through a lot of different categories. We talked about the biggest surprise teams on Wednesday. That's typically part of this exercise. But we're going to do the rest of it. Best team, best player, biggest disappointment, on and on. We got to start first and foremost with best player. I think we probably all have the same one. And that's Colin Gillespie. Right?
- [04:35]
B
I can't argue it.
- [04:36]
A
Yeah. Okay, now you guys all have Nikola Jokic.
- [04:39]
B
Just move on.
- [04:39]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [04:41]
C
I mean, I wrote down. What are we even doing here? Was my, was my note on this. I was thinking if Matrix was. It's a Shame Matrix is already taken as a nickname because when you watch him play basketball, you're like, okay, this dude is straight up cipher from the. Like, he just. He just sees the game so much. We'll get into the weeds of it. I just. He's unbelievable.
- [05:02]
A
Let's.
- [05:02]
B
We'll just throw that. But the idea of making him cipher from the matrix is disrespectful. Come on.
- [05:08]
C
Well, let's not. Let's not labor over the character, you know, the actions of the characters and try to tie them. He's not a traitor.
- [05:15]
B
Betrayed the group and tried to turn them into the machines.
- [05:18]
C
There's Joey Pants, but I'm just saying he's. He's Neo. Then I get. I'm fucking it up anyway. It would be Neo. So, yeah, he sees the code.
- [05:25]
B
Yeah, he does see the code. And breaks the code. Frankly, like, we're getting to the point specifically on anything within about 10ft of the basket. I don't know that we've ever seen a player more automatic on those shots or really any shots than what Jokic is doing right now.
- [05:41]
A
Yeah. So leading the league in rebounding and assists as we're recording this, his points per game ticked up above 30 now that Aaron Gordon is out. I imagine that will keep hiking up as the season goes along. 72.8 true shooting percentage. The highest true shooting percentage in league history is 73.2 from Rudy Gobert. And if you look at the list throughout time, it's just a lot of recent centers who are basically just putting it back right at the rim. Jokic is now taking more threes a game than he ever has, and so he's a complete outlier in that regard. And the efficiency has been unbelievable to start the season well, the threes are.
- [06:20]
B
The closest thing he ever gets to an open shot. Right. Like those kind of pitchbacks from Murray in particular in the pick and roll. That's as clean and easy as it gets for Jokic. And he's to his credit, kind of trained himself to actually take them more quickly and not hesitate. And, like, you know, the plotting. I'm going to try to reset this and get into another kind of shot. Like, he's good at it. Take that shot. Take the opening when it's there, because God knows the rest of it is going to be tough. It's all going to be contested. It's all going to be through scrapes and bruises and bodies inside and just the level of touch that he's able to have, finishing through contact to hit that sort of true shooting.
- [06:53]
A
Preposterous.
- [06:54]
B
Like I have no idea how he's doing it. I have no idea how he was the best player in the league last season and he's significantly better right now than he was last year.
- [07:02]
C
Yeah, he just. He gets, he scores in every which way. Obviously you mentioned I. He could, he can make it tough too. He can, he can bully you and get down there. He can just every type of. Every type of play. I love that you mentioned that. He's actually taking the shots like the slow wind up into the. Into the three. That he would shot fake in the past used to just drive me crazy because I just wanted to see him. But he's so efficient all over the floor. I wanted to circle back to like their. His statistical profile is one of the crazier things ever two players in the history of the league have averaged. Now granted this is through 15 games but 10 plus assists, 10 plus rebounds, 25 or more points, 65% or more true shooting. Two players, one of them is Nikola Jokic last year and the other is Nikola Jokic this year. Then you want to talk about what really, Really I, I usually bring this up whenever I talk about Jokic because it just blows my mind that among the. He's that productive. Among the top 20 players in the league in terms of touches per game, Jokic, his average seconds per touch is by far the lowest. So this guy is just. And if you look at his usage types like the ways that he does it, most stars in the NBA. I think the way that he has become kind of undeniable and you can't take him away in any fashion is he's just an implied paint touch. Like he's going to get to the paint. He doesn't need it fed to him. He can handle the ball, he can take a guard, he can take a center, he can get into the paint and then he can post you up and score. But he isn't like heavily tilted towards one mode of playing. Like he, he'll. He's a screener, he's a pick and roll guy, he's a catch and shoot guy, he's a cutter. And if you just look at the different ways that he affects the game, it's. It's just wild how. How expansive it is at this point.
- [08:44]
A
So the first tremor that kind of shook the water glass of his season thus far was Cam Johnson basically a non factor up until recently hasn't shot all that well. He's supposed to be the low maintenance shooter, make everything easier for guys Like Jokic hasn't mattered. First three of his first five games took 10 or fewer shots in those games. Just didn't matter if he was shooting. Just kind of passed the buck. They won those games anyway. He scores 55 points against the Clippers with relative ease because they decide to guard him straight up with a guy who actually guarded him fairly well last year, including into the postseason in Visa Zubac. That was nuts. And then in the most recent game or two games ago against the Rockets, they're playing him next to Valentunas after Gordon goes out. And they were actually a plus two in those minutes. A combination that I'm referring to as the Beefberg and Young front court because there is so much just heft going.
- [09:40]
C
Hold, hold, Rob comment.
- [09:43]
B
It's not French enough. We simply can't go beef borgon if there's no French guys involved.
- [09:48]
A
What would you say? Just what about Meat Locker? Because it does feel like going walking through a meat locker.
- [09:56]
C
I think I texted you all during that game and said the sheer amount of meat below the free throw line for the, for the Nuggets against the team, the Rockets that we've talked about all year is just pulverizing people. The Nuggets were like, yeah, your move.
- [10:09]
B
Yeah, I like the Meat Locker. Cause it works both ways. There is a lot of beef. And also if you play against those guys, you are the hanging side of beef and they're rocky and they're just giving you body blows the whole time. So I think it's working. Justin.
- [10:20]
A
Okay. I don't know if we'll go to it that often, but we should probably talk about Aaron Gordon being out for 46 weeks. That news came down today. Pretty disappointing, especially because this is a hamstring strain. He dealt with these soft tissue injuries last year, including toward the end of the playoffs. I was worried last year as this became a persistent issue. And man, Rob, it looks like it might be again. Four to six weeks is tough because as we mentioned, they're already dealing with Spencer Jones started his most recent game and was a huge negative against the Kings in a loss.
- [10:52]
B
I mean, it's the combination of not having Gordon and not having Christian Brown and that just puts so much pressure on the defense, which is, as you saw against the Kings, kind of flailing about trying to like compensate for the absence of those guys. But then it puts a lot of pressure on Jokic in particular to just carry the team anyway. And the fact that you can put up, that any player can put up 44, 13 and seven against the Kings and lose. Indicative of the state of things. And indicative based on that timeline, of the state of things for basically now through the end of the calendar year at least. And it's especially a blow for Gordon because, I mean, he was having the best season of his career on top of having the best season of his career last year, on top of having the best season of his career of the year before. It's like, this is just what he does. And his like, jump in shooting and scoring in particular was such an awesome story. And to lose that and, you know, at the same time lose the best, most functional version of one of the top teams in the league, it's definitely a bummer.
- [11:45]
C
It's funny because I. I had written down at one point that I want. Rob and I were talking about this was it last night. I forget. Just talking about Spencer Jones to that point.
- [11:53]
A
He had been invite guys.
- [11:54]
C
Well, he had been kind of, you.
- [11:56]
B
Want to get some Spencer Jones takes off. It sounds, Justin, like you and I might be aligned in this issue.
- [12:01]
C
Well, there's the whole pester in the group. The group. The literal group chat, text thread thing where you're just like, I don't want to be like. I just know Rob over the years has been a dependable. Hey, like, hey, what about this? I bounce. You know, Justin, I'll include you next time. My bad. But no, with Spencer Jones. With Spencer Jones, I was. He had been kind of like a tentatively. I was like, what's going on with this? He's like a little bit of a placeholder. The consistency though, as we know, is the separator there. If you're going to play on a.
- [12:27]
B
Team this good, like, they're just asking him to do a lot. And now he is like a designated stopper when he's having trouble staying on the floor because of foul trouble, when he's just a complete non entity on offense. It's. This is how they have to dig into their base.
- [12:41]
C
He's a cutter and a shooter. I'd still disagree with you on that. He's been a shooter every level. He's a good shooter. I just think like, yeah, I mean, are you going to get more than that? No, you're not. But that's what he is.
- [12:51]
A
He's also built like a player from the 60s or the 70s. Like, he feels like he needs a nickname like Spencer the Real Deal Jones or something because I just don't know where he came from and like how that body type still applies to modern basketball. But yeah, he was awful in that Kings game. So we'll see.
- [13:07]
B
Yeah, I mean, he just has to make people guard him as. As all Nuggets role players do. Like, the brief is very easy if you're playing with Nicola Jokic. Like, if you can do the bare minimum of cutting and shooting and force yourself to be a presence that a defense has to respect, all of a sudden the offense is just going to hum.
- [13:22]
A
Yeah. So I did mine kind of like an MVP ballot. I go five deep in just guys who have been playing well and deserve consideration for this. So second, I have sga, then I have Luka, who is threatening the lead for free throws attempted in an NBA season right now. It's still incredibly early, and luka's only played 11 games. But the free throw leaders and throughout history, we're talking about our will, Will, Will, Will, Shaq, will, Luka right now. So. So that's pretty insane. And then.
- [13:52]
B
Lot of Lakers on that list. I'm not saying, but I'm just saying that's true.
- [13:56]
A
It's a good point. And then I have Giannis and Wemby to round out the top five. Yeah.
- [14:01]
B
I think after that five, and, you know, we go through this exercise with the top 100, too. That's where it feels like the break is. You know, Jokic is having an amazing season. Clearly, by our eyes, the best player. Shay has been awesome. Giannis has been awesome when he's been healthy. Luka, Wemby, those guys are all in kind of this tier, more or less. After that, it's really an eye of the beholder among great, but great players on flawed teams that have been a little up and down, great players who are at different stages in their career and having to scale back, it's. It's clearly a top five. And I would be shocked if these guys can remain eligible if this is not the top five on the actual MVP ballot. Justin, by the end of the year.
- [14:38]
C
Yeah.
- [14:38]
A
Or first team, all NBA. Kyle, is there anybody else you would throw in the mix there? Yeah. Sixth.
- [14:44]
C
I had the same kind of guys written down. I mean, I wanted to say we'll probably get into him at some point, but Tyrese Maxey's production has just been. I mean, for somebody who watched. Has watched him for a long time, I've just been blown away by it. He's doing things I can't believe. But yeah, Wimby, I. Wimby is so interesting because if you go down the normal paths to look for defensive impact, you just don't find the glaring Things that you normally find with a defensive player. And I kind of throw this to you guys, like, is there any play? Because when you watch a Spurs game, I just feel like Wimby's defensive impact is kind of approaching what Steph's offensive impact is in the fact that I don't even know that we totally have an adequate, like, statistical vocabulary to capture them. Because if you watch, if you look, I'm like, I just don't feel like these analytics or these metrics are capturing what I'm seeing with my eyes, because there's just the counterfactual of the shots affected. Or take it. He. He just prevents things so much to such an extent that I don't know that I'm. I don't know. What do you think about that?
- [15:45]
B
I think it's in play. And look, anytime you're trying to quantify that very particular, spectacular, groundbreaking sort of greatness, there's always going to be a bit of a lag, even just, like, in our understanding of what to do with it. I also think he's the kind of defensive player who just radically changes the mindset of everyone on the floor. Like, you can see a difference in the way, you know, Steph Castle when he's out there and the kinds of chances that he's willing to take with Wemby behind him versus Luke Cornett behind him versus, like, you know, small ball center Harrison Barnes behind him or whatever. Like, there's just a radical shift in the understanding of what everyone is capable and able to do. Like, that's something that kind of can be quantified but also kind of can't.
- [16:24]
A
Yeah, it's like one of these physical freaks like Mark Eaton, but if he can move fluidly around the court, like, we haven't seen those two things combined. And to that point, he's leading the league in defensive rebounds with almost 11. I was wondering, like, if he played closer to the basket offensively. Like, are we talking about, like, 15, 16, 17, 18, like, historic numbers of rebounds that we haven't seen since the Wilt types when they were racking up 20 plus? Like, this is otherworldly. You have to completely separate it from just normal types of players sort of stuff? Yeah, it's the other thing.
- [17:01]
B
Even with everything you said, Kyle, like, the on off stuff is still good. Like, yeah, yeah, it's maybe not catching it to the extent that we see it or we perceive it or we're kind of filling in the gaps in our understanding of it, but it's still there.
- [17:13]
C
There There are. There are places where the. The obvious box score. I mean, like, yeah, he's leading the league in blocks. Yes. Those things, it almost, like, doesn't. It just doesn't even fully capture it for me at times. I think one thing that really struck me was that Golden State game, the cup game that they had, which was a great game. I mean, one of the great products of the season so far. But he just. Watching him and Step. He and Steph play chess, where it made me start thinking about. Wimby is one of the few defensive players I've ever seen where he basically implies that your sec. How he puts pressure on your secondary and tertiary options within your offense. Like, the first option, he just. Him being there is like, this probably isn't going to happen. We're going to deter it. And to watch Steph be like, okay, which Steph is the greatest of all time at this. He's like, all right, the ball's over there. I know there's going to be a second action, you know, just him penalizing them on that level. But I just think Wimby. Wimby affects the game like that. And like no other player I've ever seen.
- [18:14]
A
Well, have. Haven't you been making the case for nopes, which is like players dribbling in and immediately taking U turns because they won't even try them.
- [18:23]
C
Well, there was. There was a nerd race online. I know, I know. Todd Whitehead did a pretty cool one. I think he called him Hell Naus. Todd Whitehead for synergy. They're all. They're all good. But we're all talking. We're trying to. You know, we're all trying to discover the same thing. Todd's not an idiot. I'm an idiot. Sorry. Just rephrase all that. Yeah. Anyway, no, but nopes is fine. Whatever you like, whatever your conscious permits.
- [18:45]
A
The deterring of playing basketball. Yes, he definitely leads the league by far. All right, should we get into best team? Another pretty cut and dry one, I would assume, Rob?
- [18:55]
B
Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's gotta be the Oklahoma City Thunder, and we kind of yada yada passe as one of the best players in the league, obviously, right there in the running. In the conversation with Jokic as well, he's been even better. And frankly, that's kind of been like one of the trends of this season for me as you're seeing Jokic build on greatness to be even better. When you look up and down, this Thunder team, like, Shai has been insane. I mean, he's been as unstoppable as ever. Now he's just a 40% three point shooter and that's the thing we're all supposed to accept as reality. He's been, I think, the best clutch player in the league by far in terms of output. But also just like his presence in those moments and how automatic that feels. Chet feels like he's getting even sharper in terms of his feel for the game and like when to space versus when to attack. Like the balance of what the Thunder need from him. He feels better at ma like managing than ever. Kayson Wallace is balling out. AJ Mitchell is awesome. Pretty much every night. I don't even hear a word about Isaiah Joe, but he's just like a damn solid all around wing now, including like an actually good defender and ball mover in addition to the fact that he's one of the best shooters in the world. The Thunder just had these guys for days and somehow they're almost all better than they were last year.
- [20:01]
A
It reminds me of one of these, these college football programs like Georgia and Alabama, these factories where the guys who are on the bench have to raise their level of play just to get to minutes. That kind of sounds like what is happening with Isaiah Joe because there have been minutes available. But Kayson Wallace for instance, can't even get those on ball reps. We were all excited to have him Explore with because AJ Mitchell is so good. So J Dub has missed 17 games, Aaron Wiggins eight games, Dort six, Caruso five, Chet four. This is like an awesome lineup right there in and of itself and it just does not matter. Kyle.
- [20:36]
C
Yeah, I mean I was going to say nil has kind of changed that with the football factors. We don't have to go down that. I listened to the Closerman episode that he did a good job talking about that. But no, I mean you just think about over the course of the schedule, that's maybe one area if they have guys in and out of the lineup that you could, you could find some, some time for those guys to get, get time on the mic and work their set, you know. But overall this team, man, I mean if you think about when you, when you're thinking about playing a team like the Thunder, usually you're making a bet on, okay, we'll leave this guy. We'll, we'll le know, oh, we'll put him in a position to make a decision. And there's just not really many outs on for this team. And defensively they're just, they're looking like Oh, I wanted to say something about Shay Rob. You were talking about his shooting. I think one of the crazier stats for like a player who is an MVP through this point in the season. He is at 51.5% on pull up threes and pick and roll. That is not what you want to see. If you're in the west and you're trying to, if you're trying to climb, that's up 17% from last year. So that's just like that's the velociraptor learning to a new, a new skill. I don't know. It was already going to kill us and it's just smarter now. It has a missile launchers.
- [21:46]
B
Yeah, it's been. And it honestly it feels that way. Like when you watch him in those sequences specifically on the pull ups. This is not, you know, a point guard who has reluctantly evolved into a spot shooter. Like he is taking those in the heat of actual games of consequence and clutch moments and huge situations and with total confidence pulling up from three now like that's not a shot that he will settle for. It's a shot that he hunts down and is hitting at a preposterous rate.
- [22:10]
A
So the defense off the charts yet again, 16.3 point differential, obviously leads the league and is off the charts yet again. Sixteen and one as we're recording this back to back was the only loss in Portland, a game that I saw where it was not only a back to back, but it was a road road back to back after an 8pm start in LA the night before. And they were really fucking around with the lineups in that one. There were a bunch of guys out chatting Dort and obviously J Dub hasn't been there. There was like an extended stretch of like Carlson, Jang and J Will minutes and I was like, these guys are really pushing the limits on how far they can get into their bench. I think Barnheiser at one point joined them there. And so that is the one time that they've lost this season. It's just wild to think because they could easily be 17 no if they took that a little bit more seriously.
- [22:58]
B
Yeah, I mean they just don't do a lot of fucking around otherwise. This is a team that takes all of these possessions seriously, all of these games seriously. And they're able to build up enough leads where then on the back end they can still get some of those guys into the game. Just with, you know, the cushion of not having to worry about the actual stakes. I just, I remain in awe of this Defense. You know, we, we've been talking about which teams are watchable in the league right now. Whether that's an offense driven conversation or a defense driven conversation. There's so many stodgy defenses that are not fun to watch. That is not the case for the Thunder. They're spectacular. They're like, they're ferocious. The way that it fuels their transition play, like all of that makes them so engaging and so fun. In addition to the fact that the difference between them and the number two defense in the league is the same as the difference between number two and number 20. Like, it is just miles and miles apart from anybody in terms of what they're doing right now.
- [23:49]
C
Yeah, they make, they make two pointers in the, at the rim and in the short mid range. They make it hell. They make it hell to get the ball in there. They, they, they are really, really incredible with their hands. They just have a legion of dudes who are basically. I mean, I'd be interesting to see how many like reform point guards are on this team. There's an interesting kind of philosophy of like, curation of people with the guys that they go and get. I mean, Caruso being one of them. But yeah, deflections. You talked about the transition and they're really, really good.
- [24:19]
A
It's. Yeah.
- [24:20]
C
I mean, and they have a lot of room to go. So it's, it's hell playing this team on both sides of the ball.
- [24:25]
A
It is crazy watching their defense because it's more proactive than it is reactive, where it almost feels like the offensive player is the one having to like, ward off what's going on here. Just like I've said this before, but Case and Wallace's hands are like meat cleavers. Like, and now that he's playing in the starting lineup, you could see the steals numbers starting to rack up. Like, that's a tough test for any ball handler to actually just even make it past half court, let alone try to make something happen in the half court. I'm curious what you guys have as a number two option because there's a lot of competition here in terms of.
- [24:57]
B
The best overall team.
- [24:59]
A
Yeah, because I think Nuggets are in the mix there, especially after the win against the Rockets the other night. The Rockets themselves have been very good. Then the Pistons 14 and 2. And man, when Tobias and Ivy went back into the lineup the other night, I was like, whoa. Like, it was like LeBron seeing Kawhi enter the game at the foul line sort of moment. Like, this team could be a Lot better in short order.
- [25:23]
B
Yeah, but it really sidelined our guy, Danis Jenkins a lot. Now he's like splitting time with Ivy. You know, what are we supposed to do with that?
- [25:30]
A
I saw someone refer to him as a nasty boy as opposed to like the bad boy Pistons. He's like, he's a nasty. I was like, that's, that's disgusting. Let's not do that.
- [25:40]
B
You know what? I kind of. I kind of like the Nasty boys. That sounds like a Trey Kirby is up. I wonder if that was a Trey Kirby pull.
- [25:47]
C
Potentially we should do that sometime. Just like pull a. A quote and see if we can guess what media member said it that way.
- [25:53]
B
I like this.
- [25:55]
A
I don't think.
- [25:56]
B
I don't think the Pistons are particular. Like, they're great. They're obviously on an incredible run. If you put them head to head against the Nuggets in a playoff series, I don't think that's going super well for Detroit. So I think Denver is still the number two, but their injury situation is concerning and is going to change the shape of their season.
- [26:11]
A
I agree with that. I had, I had Nuggets at two even after the Russell Westbrook blood loss revenge tour that he inflicted upon them the other night. It was a back to back after the Rockets game and obviously they're dealing with injuries, but Nuggets have been the most impressive. If we're going by best, I would say Nuggets with the bullet at two, Rockets at three, and then I have Detroit at four. Four.
- [26:32]
C
Yeah. I was going to ask when an Eastern Conference team enters the chat. Really? Yeah. Houston just Denver. Denver took a legit haymaker from Houston the other night and just kind of executed them and just. It was, it was very, very impressive. Yeah, I'd go Houston 3. Who did you say you had? 4.
- [26:51]
A
I had Detroit. You can make the case for spurs at full strength. Lakers for sure. Phoenix Suns. I love watching the Suns, by the way. They're really fun team to watch.
- [27:02]
B
They are very fun. I think Detroit has earned the right of the number four spot right now. They feel like the one Eastern Conference team that really has it together in terms of their style of play and their culture and kind of they're getting the rotation back with the guys getting healthy. They feel like they've earned that spot.
- [27:15]
C
Yeah.
- [27:17]
A
The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. Get in on the NBA action at any time with live betting on FanDuel. From the first whistle until the final buzzer. Fanduel is your home for live betting. So we're looking at rookie of the year odds because you know the rookie class pretty intriguing right now. And for some reason con Knipple still giving plus money. He's plus 142nd behind Cooper Flag. Flag probably is going to put it together. He's going to have the opportunities to put up counting stats. But Khan might be the best player on his team already with Brandon Miller kind of working his way back from injury. Lamelo just being lamelo doing all his things. So I kind of like Khan Canippel playing plus 140 as long as we're in the plus right now taking those odds. Also if we're looking farther down and looking for like a longer term bet, a bigger bet. Derek Queen plus 1200 even. Honestly Vijay Edgecombe plus 1000 that's like both pretty good. BJ's playing a lot of minutes so we'll see if that kind of wears them down over time. But Derek Queen, man, putting up like near triple doubles every game. Doing some goofy stuff but fun goofy stuff and we love that. So take a look at the Rookie of the year race in total. Khan I think is going to win it but Queen pretty good odds there and so make sure you do that with FanDuel because FanDuel is giving new customers $150 in bonus bets if your first $5 bet wins. So just visit FanDuel.com RingerMBA to sign up today. Play your game with FanDuel, official sports betting partner of the NBA, 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. First online real money wager only $5 first deposit acquired bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus bests which expire seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut.
- [29:04]
C
This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. The holidays move fast and Amazon prime keeps you in control with fast and free delivery. We've all been there. Family plans are fluid. Somebody's not coming. Suddenly they are coming and you're excited about it. You want to get them a gift so you prime line that up with their interests. And it's easy to do because Amazon has everything. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and it just can't wait. Need that last Minute gift or holiday essential? It's on Prime. Head to Amazon.comprime to shop now.
- [29:37]
A
All right, next one. Biggest positive surprise player slash biggest leap. Because we couldn't figure out how to actually do this, it also might be favorite leap.
- [29:48]
B
You just said favorite leap.
- [29:49]
C
You won't give, you won't accept it. You tried to skip it. You didn't want to say favorite leap. All right, that's fine.
- [29:56]
A
Because biggest and favorite are two things, I guess now, like, we're not talking about the players made the most progress. Biggest favorite are two different lengths.
- [30:05]
C
Yeah.
- [30:06]
A
Okay, so we're doing all of that. Three different things all at once.
- [30:10]
B
Anything you want. Where do you want to start?
- [30:11]
A
Justin, why don't we do surprise? Because for me, surprise doesn't necessarily mean a leap where you've like become a different player. It's just that it's surprising that you're playing well. And first and foremost, I had two pair, a pair of Wolves guys and Julius Randall and Jaden McDaniels. Now the Sun's loss is fresh in our memory, and that was pretty disappointing. I also have Colin and Gillespie down here, so maybe we could do them as kind of a trio here. But Julius Randle, just playing lights out. They had like the EPM leaderboard that just came out and he was top five, I think, when it first came out. He's down to ninth now, but his overall game isn't impeded by what happened in the playoffs. He's just kind of going around trucking and being his all around ball handling, power player self. But Jaden McDaniels, I gotta say, like, shooting lights out of the ball and just looks like a completely different player offensively where he's driving just with confidence and force in a way that he hasn't before. He's just like attacking in a way that belies almost like his. His steely demeanor, that kind of like, I'm, I'm out to lunch sort of look that he typically has across his face. Like, he's been awesome.
- [31:15]
B
So far, he's been awesome and you can tell how awesome he's been by the way that the team around him wants him to do that shit, right? It's like there's the guy who's sort of breaking from script and going like, just kind of doing whatever he wants in a Jordan Pool sort of way. And then there's the Wolves, like, carving out space and time for Jaden McDaniels to be an active creator and him justifying it, like becoming a really good kind of pull up jump shooter on those kind of short to intermediate shots. Getting all the way to the basketball off of some like pretty good ball, like pretty clever ball handling in a way that was just like not a regular part of his game. And so we're seeing him particularly in the like the stretch where Ant was out. But even it's, it's been a part of their kind of regular diet since he's been back. That, that's the kind of thing that completely changes the ceiling for the Wolves and frankly has bailed them out. Like this is a team that their defense started really slow. They're still struggling to be like actually good teams. The reason their offense has been successful is because of Julius and Jaden first and foremost. Like those guys playing at the level they have been has really bailed out the Wolves to this point.
- [32:16]
C
Yeah, I was going to say they, they need him to do it. I think that's probably. It's the excitement. This was sort of the original vision for him as a player. It's just the handle, as it so often is the case. The handle was the thing that was going to dictate whether or not he got to do it because he, he's always kind of been an aspiring lanky dribble pull up shooter and he, you know, he wasn't quite ready to do that when he got to the NBA and it was like, all right. And somebody got, somebody got in his ear and convinced him to be a defensive buy in guy. And he has traded on that. And you like to see that that's a maturity that propels players. It's. It's something that you, you like to see in guys that they figure out what they can do while they learn how to do the thing they want to do in the NBA. And he's, he's slowly getting there. Yeah. And you love to see it.
- [32:59]
A
Yeah. So I also have Gillespie down. We just got to talk about him quickly. I don't know if this is a surprise because I didn't really think of anything of him previously.
- [33:07]
B
That makes it a surprise, doesn't it?
- [33:09]
A
I guess so. But he's just been awesome, like just TJ McConnell, but actually shoots the ball.
- [33:15]
C
Would you say it's been one of your favorite things that has happened? Like one of your favorite leaps that's happened, Justin?
- [33:21]
A
I would say, I would say favorite surprises perhaps not a leap.
- [33:27]
B
It's definitely a leap. This is a guy who has struggled to get rotation minutes like all throughout his career to this point. And then all of a sudden not only is like he getting his first chance, he's had chances. And this is a totally different player from the guy we've seen.
- [33:41]
A
Honestly, the Nuggets could use him right now, which is disappointing. But coming back from down eight with under a minute, how they stole that game away was one of the craziest things of the season thus far. The. The jump in the pass and then throwing it off of Dante's shoe, the pull up just to win the game in general, but like overall, just seeing the rebounding numbers that this guy who's all of 5, 11, maybe I don't know what he's listed at, but there's no way he's like that much taller than six feet. Give me a break. Don't even look that up.
- [34:12]
B
He's. He's. He's blogger sized for sure, but like he's 6:1.
- [34:17]
C
Well, we will see if that's generous.
- [34:18]
A
Which means he's like five, nine. Yeah, that's how. That. That's how a dating app works. But here's rebounds the past five games. Seven, three, four, six. He's the best. I love watching him.
- [34:31]
B
He's. I mean, look, the Suns within their roster have like five candidates for this. It's just a bunch of guys who are playing at incredible levels after just kind of bumming through last year. Not, not saying they were bumming through, but like, the situation was such a bummer and they all had to kind of swallow it down together. Now they get to play free. They're more involved. There's clearly a collaboration there that's really helping a lot of people. And the reason that balance works is because all of a sudden Colin Gillespie is a legit ball handler, is able to take some of the pressure off Devin Booker and Grayson Allen is like, he's kind of a ballast for the rotation in a lot of ways, which is crazy to say.
- [35:08]
C
Yeah, just moving. Moving out of total despair. Like cohesion and good spirited play is just help sons not be the absence of depression. You know, it's not like they're gonna. They're like, you know, gonna climb into the conversation in the west or anything like that. It's just not. Being depressed is a huge win for Phoenix, I think this year.
- [35:27]
B
Absolutely.
- [35:28]
A
You say that, but 10 and 6, currently the sixth seed as we're recording this, they got a game sniper, so we'll see. But like their appointment viewing at this point, like, I like watching them because they're just good enough to give a much better team, like a run for their money. They can play up. And those games are exciting. It's kind of like what Portland has, where it's just like the exact right amount of good in order to make this watchable.
- [35:51]
C
Yes, they're a good star.
- [35:52]
B
Yeah, they're a good measuring stick for the league in that way. Because it's like if you're a good team, you have to show up. If you're a bad team, you're trying to play up to the sun's level of competence. Like they, they're kind of a. Like a pace car.
- [36:03]
A
Hmm. That's a good way to put it. So those are my surprises. The other guys I have down here technically fall into leaps more interesting. Do you guys want to go?
- [36:14]
B
I would say for me, surprise. Tar Eason leading the league in three point percentage. Fucking wild. And certainly welcome. You know, we've been huge boosters of Tara Eason on this podcast. Like, huge fan of everything that he does, especially defensively and as a chaos agent. If you're doing all that stuff and you're just one of the best three point shooters in the league, randomly, inexplicably, you're just vaulting yourself into a different category of value and impact. So if that, that's the kind of thing that can hold over the course of the year, yeah, the Rockets are going to be that much formid more formidable in the half court. All these questions we had about like, fit in space are suddenly kind of resolved if guys like Tari Eason are just hitting at this level.
- [36:55]
A
I also had Reed shepherd down as a. As kind of the same thing.
- [36:58]
C
Just.
- [36:58]
A
But he's kind of a leap though. So. Is he? I don't know. I think he's.
- [37:04]
C
I would say it's a leap. I mean, well, it gets into the.
- [37:07]
A
Whole most improved thing. Can you actually nominate guys who were top three picks?
- [37:11]
B
But Kyle was telling us Reed shepherd was basically Jesus Christ. So if anything, this is a step down from who Reed was.
- [37:17]
C
Man, I was really tempted to talk that when he was going off in that game the other night. Some of the talking was getting on my nerves. People just acting like it was. Well, people were acting like just, just act. The, the low bar talk was just getting on my nerves because it, it was like, have you all even. It just made me think nobody people hadn't been watching him. You know, there were a few clips that were going around and I was like, okay. I guess for me, like, it's probably not a full blown leap because I think it's more about him figuring out how to do the things that he was billed as being good at getting, just getting them on the floor and doing them. Because last year it was just like all right you're a spacer, we need you to space. Can you just do these basic things? I think if he starts really facilitating and just kind of expanding, I think that fits more the definition of leap. He's just sort of rose to the occasion and applied the things that we knew he was good at or at least I felt like he was good at to help the Rockets.
- [38:07]
A
If you redraft that class right now or for like going forward, who will be the best? Is Reed one?
- [38:15]
C
I think it's. I need to see some more. I mean and I think there are some long term sort of things that could become an issue because they are still going at him defensively a lot. Granted he's scrappy as hell. I mean he's fighting. He's kind of leaning into that dickish energy. I think that's pretty fun cause I don't think that kid has a mean bone in his body. But Castle I think still has a little bit more of a stable for now. I just, I think we need to see a little bit more. I rizache just speaking to who has won. I had him like closer to 10 in that class. I wasn't as love in love with with his game but that that'd be kind of. I think I had clinging one in that class. I'm pretty positive I did because I just thought his room protection would be stable compared to the volatility of those other two guys.
- [38:59]
B
I mean reason she is going to be a quality player for a long time but yeah that might ultimately be kind of more of a mid projection versus a number one overall pick. Castle though is. He looks really special. Like like just the feel he has, the impact plays he makes on defense, the like random shit he just makes happen out of thin air combined with the fact that he's like not an imp like implausible point guard. You know he's kind of come into his own on ball a little bit this season in a way that's exciting for his NBA prospects. Also shout out Alex Sar if we're going to have that conversation. He's had a really good year.
- [39:33]
A
Yeah Sar is playing more like a big men and like the shooting is more of a bonus to fill out the all around game that he has and it's, it's worked really well. And so those are the top three I would have just thinking about this off the top of my Head. I'd probably go castle one with a bullet. I think, like, he's just scaling up over and over again. I like the way that Rob put it. I think of him more as like a men Thompson, but more with traditional old school point guard pass first kind of tendencies. And then I'd probably go read and then sar. 1, 2, 3. And then it gets incredibly murky from there.
- [40:03]
C
Even still, it's interesting that we were all like the hipster kind of basketball boner in the off season for us. For I'm in, I feel like it's not that he's failed, but it just feels like they're the other parts of their offense that have leveled up, I think have taken our attention off of him making like an on ball leap because I'll watch their games and I would be like. Kind of feels like Amin's kind of trying to find where to fit into this. When it was and when we, when we came to the season, we were like, I feel like Amin's going to have his hands on the steering wheel a little bit more.
- [40:32]
B
Yeah, he's.
- [40:33]
A
He's definitely showing more as like a downhill scorer and just an overall scorer than like kind of in the midst of all these good things happening with the Rockets, which is very scary for everyone else because he's being able to develop and read in his own right. Is developing. Even though they're just kind of storming through the season thus far.
- [40:50]
B
Justin, while we're talking downhill scores and overall scores, I would like to put forward my favorite leap of the season. Ryan Rollins. Guys.
- [40:58]
A
Oh, I thought you were going with a different one in my neck of the woods, but that's okay.
- [41:02]
B
What's wrong with Ryan Rollins? What, like an energy guy becoming a 20 a game starting point guard isn't exciting enough for you?
- [41:10]
A
No, it is. It's just there's one closer to my heart that I thought you were going for.
- [41:14]
B
This is fair. Well, Ryan Rollins is close to my heart, and in particular, you know, we talk all the time about these guys who come into the league as stoppers first, and then what happens when they get the reins? What happens when they get the opportunity? This is a guy who has just kind of grabbed hold of the starting point guard spot in what I think a lot of people are sort of penciling in Kevin Porter Jr. To have, over the course of this season, injuries opened up that opportunity. Rollins jumps in and his production skyrockets. He gets to the rim more often than basically any guard in the league. And at the same time, he's also leading the league in deflections even still. And so it's like he hasn't sacrificed the things that we loved about role player Ryan Rollins as he is becoming legit second option. Now we're going to try to guard you with a Sar Thompson level.
- [41:58]
A
Ryan Rollins, he's been great and honestly, he changes maybe perhaps the mindset of the Bucks this year because if he can be a starting caliber point guard, he's been fairly good without Giannis in there. We'll see because they have this stretch that's really going to kind of dictate how good the sporting cast really is. Like, yeah. All of a sudden I'm like, maybe Michael Porter Jr. Isn't looking too bad as like a, a fourth option, third option sort of guy to put around Rollins and Giannis.
- [42:22]
C
KEVIN PORTER jr And yeah, yeah, coming into the season, that was pretty.
- [42:26]
A
No, I'm saying trade for my junior.
- [42:28]
C
Oh, okay.
- [42:29]
B
I mean, yeah, okay.
- [42:30]
C
Yeah, that could come up again later. It'd be putting MPJ in a situation. We'll, we'll talk a little, a little Nets later. No, man. Yeah, we will.
- [42:41]
A
Just a little.
- [42:41]
B
Just a little.
- [42:43]
C
Rollins is just such a smooth mover, man. You hate to like, you hate to just really, really oversimplify it at times, but when you just watch him hit, how fluid and smooth he is with the basketball, it's like he can just get to spots sometimes. It's just that simple. And, and it kind of makes you wonder why he was ever overlooked in the first place because their guys just his balance and, and he, he just attacks gaps really smoothly. He's been a revelation for sure. You want me to say mine? My next.
- [43:10]
A
Yeah.
- [43:10]
B
Yeah.
- [43:11]
C
You all might not agree with this choice, but I think that this guy, this was a course correction in a way that could extend this guy's career, I think in a major way. And that's Keonte George.
- [43:22]
A
He.
- [43:23]
C
So I remember when we were writing about him in the rookie, in the rookie rankings, I was like, okay, this is a guy who really loves his dribble pull up and he can't pass a little bit. But when he would get into the mid range, his, when he would get into the mid range, he was just very in a knot about what his decision making. And this year, man, he has really made some really incredible leaps. Like his points in the paint this year are way, way up. 7.9 from 4.7 last year. Just has his wits about him in the paint way more and he's. Which is causing him to Access some more of that playmaking. And it's also allowing him to get to the line a little bit. And I think taking pressure off of him, just being like when I come off of this screen, people were soft showing on him a lot and being like, by all means, please take that 32, 31% dribble, pull up three. His catch and shoot numbers are pretty good from three. Granted, overall it's lower, it's been a little bit lower, but I just think he's detangled to stick with the knot thing. I think he's detangled this a little bit in a, in a really mature way. And if you listen to Will Hardy talk about him, they seem like they're very pleased with a lot of this stuff. So if the shooting stabilizes, I feel like his career has sort of corrected itself in a way that could really affect his trajectory.
- [44:34]
B
I mean, how could you not be pleased with it? Especially last year, watching him just like made me feel so empty inside. Like there was just something about the way he was playing that was like, oh, I don't like the decision making. I don't like the return on basically any shot he's taking. And granted a lot of that was with like lineups that the Jazz were rolling out that did not have lowry marketing in them, did not have functional NBA ecosystem around him. So just getting a normal, functioning, movement oriented team and he can be the guy who is knifing to the basket in the way you're describing Kyle. Like that's, that's a huge shift for him, but he also had to make that shift.
- [45:08]
A
Was it one of the worst shooting seasons on record? That really didn't do it for you?
- [45:12]
B
You know what, it's funny how that works.
- [45:14]
A
Yeah. 39% from the field last year to back end of another 39% as a rookie. Yeah, he's been a revelation this year. I'm curious what his kind of ceiling is. I agree that he stabilized and perhaps I should just appreciate where we are now. But my mind keeps drifting to like down the road. Because with the Jazz it's all down the road. Right. And so Kyle, do you think like, do you think he's a starting caliber backcourt player in this league?
- [45:39]
C
I mean, if he's going to be starting caliber on a like competent, competitive team, the shooting is going to need to continue to is he's going to need to level it out. He balanced one and that's going to need to come up. I just think that I really thought he was in trouble, like For. I mean, I know what you said like the. That's why he threw himself a life preserver with this. And from what every. From everything I understand. He's just really taken it. Maybe the fact that they draft. I was joking in the off season that when they drafted Clayton, I was like, Clayton's not a terribly dissimilar style player. And Clayton's pull up stuff was a lot more projectable and believable to me. I was like. Well, I was like Keonte, maybe a little fire under him. I don't know. But I don't know about Superstar, but I think he's definitely put himself in the position to be at least a rotation level player on like a competent team. If he continues this and the shooting stabilizes. I don't know what you all think.
- [46:26]
A
Yeah, so I also had Laurie down here in terms of like surprises, if we're talking about Jazz guys. Just because he'd kind of been in the wilderness the past two years since the All Star most improved breakthrough, partly because he was injured, partly because he was injured in your quotes.
- [46:41]
B
And so also trade ineligible. You know, it's also funny how that works.
- [46:45]
A
Yeah. And so I have him in this like kind of weird subgroup called the still got. It's where he's the seventh leading scorer in the NBA as we're recording this, like it's almost 30 a game. It's just absolute bonkers stuff. And then with him is Tyrese Maxey, who's a guy, like we're talking top, I don't know, 15 style player who has completely reoriented the Sixers to him and like how he plays and like his timeline. Like, I thought this a leap was coming, Rob. I didn't think it was going to be like potential MVP candidates sort of leap is.
- [47:19]
B
Here's the question. Is Tyrese Maxey taking a leap or is he just stacking three or four years in a row of like giant bounding steps forward? Like, this isn't the one step. It's. It's kind of been natural progression. Not just. No, an unnatural progression. I would say like incredible movement in terms of who he is as a player, how you have to guard him. And to your point about how you think of him within your own organization and what your orbit becomes like, he, he rightly is in that class of player now. He is the kind of creator who presents so many problems, I don't even know how to approach stopping them as, you know, someone who's trying to build a defense against him.
- [47:58]
C
Are you saying, oh, Are you saying that his development was just sort of hap. Like, the revolution was not televised kind of thing? Like, he was getting this good, we just weren't getting to see it. And then once he's getting this opportunity, it's just like, oh, my God, he's gotten a lot better. We just weren't getting to see it play out as incrementally because of the way the roster was.
- [48:14]
B
I'm thinking about him in the. In the spirit of the leaps. This is not a guy standing in place and making one giant leap. This is a. An Olympic long jumper who is doing the huge steps in addition to the big leap at the end. And so, yes, it is a great leap forward, but also the last couple steps have been pretty fucking awesome too.
- [48:32]
A
But to that point, you can kind of see the progression happening where it's like he was pushing volume on threes. Wasn't doing so well, but you'd see it paying off now where it's like he's jacking up almost 10 a game and he's shooting at a high volume. It's just like every step of the way feels like a natural wrong in what would be his complete form. And I have to give credit to Daryl Morty and just like, his system again, Kyle, because, like, he sees the way to, like, push players to their absolute maximum. And he's doing it again with Maxi.
- [49:00]
C
Maxi moan. I had to. It was right there. It was begging. Yeah, I think one thing too. He just. He just was like a comet streaking to the basket. Whenever I watch him now, I'm just like, in the past, it was like, okay, he's coming off of this handoff or he's back cutting and he's so fast getting to the spot. He was like, shooting off, like, above the square of time. Those type of floaters and things. When I watch him now, I'm just like, he's undeniable. Getting to the pain. He's so strong and you can just see him embracing physically. The angularity is still there, but that's the shooting obviously, too. But yeah, he's been really impressive in that adjustment.
- [49:39]
B
He might have the best half court speed of any player in the league. That quick burst and granted the shooting opens a lot of that up. And all of a sudden you get a clear Runway when you can shoot the way he does. But it's remarkable.
- [49:51]
A
Yeah. So I have like nine other players listed down here. I'll just kind of rattle some off. AJ Mitchell. We talk about practically every podcast. Jalen Dern, we Just did last podcast. Scotty Barnes, I think also talked about last podcast. Norm Powell and Jaime Hawkes. Of course, Norm Powell was a free player for the Miami Heat. Remember that? That trade didn't go so well. We'll talk about that in a little bit. Does con canipple count as a leap? Because he just keeps getting better every time I watch. He's a rookie. He's played like 15 games at this point. But like he was the best player on the court against the Clippers the other night with Miller and Lamel in the lineup. That's pretty good. And then I have Denny Abdia who, God damn. Just a completely different player. Like you definitely saw flashes of the player he's becoming now with the Wizards. But it's very much a you made it a hot line, you made it a hot song sort of thing where just like he's doubling his three point rate, doubling the free throw rate. He's the best player on this team and I think could easily slot into being probably a number two on like a title contending team at this point.
- [50:51]
B
He's been awesome. I think we, I think we still need to, you know, to, to kind of pivot off the maxi conversation like the half court stuff from him. I still want to see a little bit more like he's such a great transition weapon and he turns what for other teams would be stagnant possessions into sort of like semi transition opportunities with the flow that he plays with, that's really like, that's something not a lot of players do enough of and he just does in spades. But like the ground down need to make something out of the muck possessions. I do want to see a little more from him.
- [51:21]
A
Yeah. Like true number one superstar.
- [51:24]
B
Totally. And that's. That's what separates it, right.
- [51:27]
C
His ability to like his ability. The way that he's learned to play with Pace has just really caused him to have an explosion in his game because a lot of the IQ and things like that, they were there. It was like we needed to see. It's just been sort of the, I would say like the bonding agent. His. That's just really him playing with Pace because he's so big. I mean you just watch him. He just. The fact that he's been able to do that, he's been able to say like, you know, my handle's not shaky anymore, I'm bigger than you and just exerting his will. But I do agree. I mean, I want to see a little bit more. But yeah, he's been He's. He surpassed what I thought he would be for sure already.
- [52:02]
A
Do you guys have any other names you want to throw out there?
- [52:04]
B
It's much talked about. I mean, like, we, I think we hit the big ones. Castle again, I think is worthy of note here. Gordon, Aaron Gordon for his scoring jump this season. But I think we hit most of like the, the leaps that have really kind of told the story of the NBA campaign so far. It's a lot of like what Jaden McDaniels is doing and what Jalen Duran is doing. Like, these are, these are meaningful changes that I think could have not just an impact for the, you know, the playoff race this year, but like, we could know a lot about where the NBA is going to be three years from now by how good Jalen Duran is right now.
- [52:36]
A
All right, Biggest disappointment, flip side of things. So this could be a player or a team. Rob, you want to go first?
- [52:43]
B
It's got to be the Clippers.
- [52:45]
A
I mean, I had them as a close second, but go ahead.
- [52:49]
B
They were a 50 win team last season and they're currently 5 and 11. I know that they were playing over their head a little bit. I know that there was like some, some magic in the sauce last year that maybe they were going to come back down to earth. I didn't think they were going to come back down to a 26 win pace. That's not something that I expected. And I would say this has been especially disappointing because James Harden has been really fucking good. And so for him to be producing and scoring in the way he is, like, I mean he's putting up 28, 9 and 6 on 46, 41, 90 shooting. And they're this bad. Like he, he is putting forth a herculean effort this season and cannot lift this offense to even league average. It's such a bummer. Like they're, they're so hard to watch. There is like a structural thing that is kind of busted in their design because they are so old and so slow and way too deliberate. And all that's just been accentuated by the injuries that they've had where they can't even really get to. Back to the basics of what made them good last year because some of those guys are gone. Some of those guys are out of the lineup. Brad Beal was supposed to come in and replace Norm. That obviously didn't work out. He's out for the year. There's just a cascading effect that has made them, I think, the defining disappointment of the league so far.
- [53:59]
C
This team has kind of been like. I was trying to think of. This reminds me of the like Monuments Men. Did you all see that movie where it was like.
- [54:06]
A
Or.
- [54:07]
C
Or I was thinking about what was that movie? The crew that had like Richard Dreyfuss and a bunch of like older actors who were clearly just kind of getting together for a movie. And you were like, ah, this will be fun. And then you're like, man, it has not been fun at all.
- [54:19]
B
It is kind of Space Cowboys, you know, like, right.
- [54:22]
C
Can we call the Clippers the Space Cowboys? I love that.
- [54:28]
A
I mean, they got all of their moves wrong over the off season. It looks like we'll see about John Collins. He's the only one who is even close to a spring chicken. But like, Bradley Beal failed. Chris Paul looks like he's hot potatoing the ball at each chance he gets. It's not like Chris Paul setting someone up, being passed first. It's like, get this out of my hands. I can't deal with this. Brook Lopez has been bad. And then to see Norm Powell just re energize a Heat team with like this new exciting offense that we haven't seen before. And just like they're playing at this crazy pace. It's just you gave that away for what ends up being just like a couple old guys who can't get up and down. So I have their off season specifically in addition to just overall team success.
- [55:08]
B
Well, and like the net effect of that off season when you take away a go to scorer like Norm Powell and you take away some of the ecosystem of what made this team so good defensively, and you're replacing it with all of these extremely veteran parts that either are healthy but ineffective or unhealthy and not able to play. They just don't get anything easy ever. Like there are. They don't force turnovers, they don't get offensive rebounds, they don't have enough shooting anymore to get like zoo actually rolling to the rim with space and momentum and nobody gets to the free throw line other than James Harden. And so then it's just every possession is a slog all the time and they don't get back the other way to actually defend in the way they need to defend.
- [55:48]
A
So I had them as a close second to my number one team and my number one pairing, which is John Morant and Jaren Jackson of the Grizzlies. Because this is pretty dire to the point where like Jaw in street clothes was like trying to talk shit to Klay Thompson, but was Shut down, like pretty definitively. Clay was just like very calm and measured. Was just like, nah, like, what are you doing? Like. And it kind of underlined the fact that Jod's kind of become a joke in the league at this point, which is very sad considering we thought at one point he was going to be our bright and shining boy, just like taking us to a new era of basketball. And so there's that in and of itself. But Jaren Jackson, on top of that, I know the injuries of it might be still lingering because he was. He started slow going into preseason. We didn't know if he was going to be there opening night, all that. But like, the rebounding is down, the blocks are down and the turnovers are way up. Like, he seems almost like a byproduct of whatever mess is going on with Jah. And that is where I'm getting incredibly concerned.
- [56:47]
B
Yeah, I feel like Jaren's been kind of whatever in a series where they really needed him to be good. And so that combination of Jah is both injured and just like a new wrinkle that has torpedoed the present tense and maybe future of the Memphis Grizzlies. And they don't have any functional point guards to the point that Vince Williams has to. Like, that's not even moonlighting as that job. Like, there's no universe in which Vince Williams should be your point guard and yet he kind of has to be at times for where they are right now. So I grade them on a little bit of a curve based on the like the horrid stacking injuries of not having Ja and Scottie Pippen and Ty Jerome. Like, that's going to put any team behind the eight ball. But you would hope in a situation like this that someone like Jaren would show a new aspect of his game, frankly, in a way that he's already done with their injury history before when they've had guys out, he became more of a ball handler. He evolved as a player. This version of Jaren is just kind of like fine and that's not good enough.
- [57:44]
C
Yeah, he's not making the drink stirring kind of leap that we would like. And I had Jaw down to his biggest disappointment. I mean, there's the basketball side of it in that, you know, if you just look at the way he's attacking the game, I mean his self created stuff, his efficiency is down, you know, ISO 0.59 abysmal lowest point output since his rookie year. And those things could be fine if you were making the argument of like hey, it just feels like there's an. There's a defensiveness coming from an identity crisis that's making me think that maybe he. And when you tie it into the style of play, stuff that was going on last year and hear him talk about, like, oh, you all wanted me to do this, you wanted me to do that, you can see we're talking about Keonte getting into the paint jaws, not scoring in the paint as much. He's doing more in you. His three point percentage is coming. Has come down. Just. It's all just out of whack. I mean, like, he's frisky and passing lanes and things on that, like that on defense, but he's not being the offensive leader and that they need him to be. In the clay thing, man, I mean, it's just Clay was spot on. I mean, you saw most of the Internet there being like, hey, buddy. I mean, Clay being washed at this point, it seems obvious, is the result of him going through runs and going through wars. That jaw is not putting himself in the position to go fight. So I just. I thought that was pretty lame from him.
- [58:56]
A
Yeah, what was so cutting about it was he was almost clinical in how he was talking about ja, where he's just like, yeah, he rarely takes accountability. It was almost just like, he really needs to deal with his. His past trauma, you know, like, he was almost at a certain point complimentary of him. Like, he started going on and he was just like, this guy was supposed to be it and he's kind of not. And so, like, what are you going to do? He's a funny guy. Like, it wasn't just like, fuck this guy Barb here. There just like real, like, slight cuts that really just kind of underlined the problem with ja. And I think we all thought maybe the injuries would undo JA at some point or just the off the court stuff would just completely consume him and just like solely the whole picture there. But really it's the off the court behavior filtering into on the court, and it's more just reluctance than anything else. Like, of all the things that JA was dealing with in the past, I didn't think it was just going to be. He would sit on his hands and not want to, like, participate. Like, this is the worst, I think, possible outcome of anything because, yeah, he's. He's out every now and then. He was out in this game, which was pretty funny because he was doing this in like a sweatsuit, basically. But it really has been just like him not being motivated, which is really fucked Up.
- [60:01]
B
Yeah, I think we lean too much into the idea that he was a competitor and a winner, which I think is true in a sense. But ultimately what he is is incredibly stubborn and does not want to change who he is as a player. The fact that Kyle, I'm not sure if these are the quotes you were alluding to or not, but like, he had some lines earlier this season when he was. People were questioning, like, why aren't you getting to the basket more? And he was talking about, oh, I thought you wanted me to drive less so I wouldn't get hurt. Like, it's like the way he's like trying to flip things on their head is not quite the gotcha he imagined. Because the ultimate gotcha is like, you are just not a high functioning star level NBA player anymore with the way you're performing. And that's when you're healthy and out there. To say nothing about the costs that come to the Grizzlies with his, you know, lack of availability over the years.
- [60:45]
A
I also have the Pacers down here, but that one's a little bit more expected. The injuries started and they just fucking. Just turn the key.
- [60:51]
C
They're like, you mad at the Pacers?
- [60:53]
B
I'm talking in June when they get a top five pick. Like, it's going to be all right for them.
- [60:58]
C
I think real, real pick yourself by your bootstraps. You know, energy, real hillbilly elegy energy from Justin right there. Just like, it's your fault.
- [61:06]
A
It's your fault. I didn't want to bring it up. I didn't want to bring it up. But, but Jerris Walker, I think, I think we could bury him at this point.
- [61:13]
B
Wow. I have no retort. I'm just, I'm just hurting personally.
- [61:18]
A
He just, he just needs to be in a winning environment. You know, he's one of the.
- [61:22]
B
We're just waiting.
- [61:23]
A
Yeah. All right, well, let's do something a little bit more positive. Which is the big boy of the. Of the one month. I don't know what to call this because we had big boy of the month, which was each month Kyle's thing where he just a big guy. I'm still kind of lost on the definition. We're now at the one month mark, which is a different thing. So Kyle, if you'll allow it, we'll do a big boy of the one month.
- [61:46]
C
A big boy is a noun. It is a thing. It is a big guy. It's a big person. But a big boy is also a verb. I mean, it Is a thing you do to somebody. The smallest person in the world could. Big boy the biggest person in the world, Justin?
- [61:58]
A
Absolutely.
- [61:59]
C
I think. I think the big boy the sea of the season so far. Well, I don't know. You all can. You can debate this. I don't have any, like, numbers to. This is all eye test. I watch the Rockets a lot. I think Shingles.
- [62:10]
A
You don't have an algorithm?
- [62:10]
C
I. I don't. I don't. I know people are probably fucking relieved.
- [62:14]
B
Don't rattle off a bunch.
- [62:15]
C
Okay? So Shingoon. Shing Goose, I think, has been the big boy this season. I think if you didn't know anything about basketball, you can. Could see that he has. He has just forced his will and propelled them in a way that I think has been incredible and has made a leap, I think. Yeah, I think Shangun's the big boy of the season so far.
- [62:34]
B
Honestly, I think it's a great pick. I have two names written down, both Houston Rockets. I think Shengun and Stephen Adams both have a case for big boy of the year. The big boys come in many forms. I think Shen Goon is very much in the spirit of the name and the verb that Kyle's describing, which is the like plow through somebody. Like, you know, ultimately, like, the physicality in attacking and scoring, that is, to me most commonly associated with big boying. But then you watch Stephen Adams going full like, older brother on the Nerf hoop on the offensive glass, and it's just like, this is also big boy. Like, I saw him box out.
- [63:09]
C
Go, go.
- [63:09]
B
Batatze with one arm. Jonathan Isaac with the other arm. Can you guess who got the rebound? Of course it was Stephen Adam.
- [63:16]
C
And he does this shit almost tb. I can't. I just can't even imagine how helpless you feel if he's. Just because he's not extending. He's just, like, holding his arm. Like, he's just like, no, you're not. You're not coming in. He's a bouncer, basically.
- [63:28]
B
Yes.
- [63:29]
A
And it doesn't look like he's a, like a workout freak or like he's just like in the off season, just deadlifting with Olympic weightlifters. It's just more that, like, he probably grew up, like, carrying trees to, like, around his house to build Lockheed. It's like that type of strength just, like, ingrained into who he is as a person.
- [63:49]
B
There are two kinds of people from New Zealand. One of them is people who look like Stephen Adams, and the other one is like, you look like Brett McKenzie. From Flight of the Concords. Like, those are the only two types of people in that country. And so, yeah, the NBA against the Stephen Adams version.
- [64:02]
A
Well, this is appropriate because, I mean, the Rockets are probably the biggest big boy team in recent history. The rebounding Ray we've talked about, and these two guys are really the source of that for a lot of it. I went a different route based on recent results, which is I have Nikola Vucevich big boying his own teammates.
- [64:21]
C
Wow, That's a spiritual big boy.
- [64:23]
A
So they beat the.
- [64:24]
B
Oh, shit, Clay.
- [64:26]
C
Spiritually big boy Moran, this is. You just opened my. Expanded my horizons, Justin. I never thought about spiritually big boying people. By all means, please continue.
- [64:36]
A
Yeah, let me throw this at you because. So they. They beat the Wizards in dramatic fashion, and Nicola Vucevich is just not happy. He thinks they played like they did play, like. And he's just worried about the long term. And so he's giving this walk off interview where he's like. He's basically sullen. He's like, man, we really didn't have it tonight. Hoof can't believe this. Meanwhile, his teammates come about, come about and just like, start trying to whoop him up to the point where someone's like, come on, man, be happy. And he's like, no. He actually at one point walks away because he doesn't want to deal with Jalen Smith. It was, like, a little concerning. But I also think an ultimate big boy, if we're really kind of drilled down on the meaning here, they deserve.
- [65:18]
B
To be big boy a little bit. It was very uncomfortable, though. It was a little like the iconic interview of Stan Van Gundy talking about the dissolution of the Orlando Magic as he sips a diet Pepsi and then Dwight Howard walks up behind him and tries to crack some jokes, not knowing what they're talking about. That seemed to be the vibe as Vuch was, like, chewing out his team via post game interview.
- [65:41]
A
Apparently gave him a post game locker room just like, slap on the wrist. So that's a big boy.
- [65:47]
B
How does that make you feel, Justin, about the state of your Bulls, though?
- [65:51]
A
I feel fine. I think this is.
- [65:53]
B
This is healthier business as usual now. Like, you got to be big boy sometimes.
- [65:58]
A
They're over 500, like, a month into the season. This is all found money at this point.
- [66:02]
C
Some people pay to be big boy. You know, we don't have to go down that road.
- [66:07]
A
All right, let's go to preseason Mulligan. Two categories left. This was tough because a lot of my predictions Are. Well, my predictions are typically right, and so a lot of the mulligans I need are the ones that everyone's wrong about, you know.
- [66:22]
B
Well, let's get on with it then. So, like, who do you. Who do you need a mulligan on?
- [66:27]
A
I have the ones we've talked about. I have Clippers, Grizzlies, Pacers, Suns. I had Clippers at eighth in our preseason power rankings. I had the Magic ninth, and although they're turning things around, like ninth is a little high and Grizzly's 15th. So those would be the ones I'd target. What do you have?
- [66:44]
B
I think Suns and Raptors. Suns are a good one again. Suns, we just did not think that this would be a functional team, that there would be enough ball handling, that Devin Booker would be overburdened within that offense, that they wouldn't have enough defensively to, you know, make up for it, even though they would have energy. And yet they've just been able to hold everything down in every way. And I think for Toronto specifically, I didn't think Toronto's offense was going to have the spacing and the flow to work at a really high level. They've been one of the best teams in the Easter Conference. So, like, we. We gotta take the big old L on that one.
- [67:14]
C
You said they stunk. You said they stunk, Rob. Early in the season and you don't get credit now. You can't talk about them, you're not allowed to praise them. You can't change your tune now. It's too late.
- [67:23]
B
Sometimes you stink and then you're good. Sometimes you big boy yourself, and you've become one of the best teams in your conference. And I would. I would like to salute the Raptors for that.
- [67:32]
C
Yeah, I had those written down. Also, I have a kind of a random one.
- [67:36]
A
I.
- [67:36]
C
Maybe it's just my own kind of worrying about Derrick Queen. I feel like I. I feel like I was a little wrong in some of my worries about him. Like I said before, I had him eight on my board. I ultimately was going to slide him down because I was so worried, but I was like, he's so talented. Honestly, I don't know if he's going to be high enough.
- [67:52]
A
Just.
- [67:52]
C
He's looked so phenomenal. We were talking about the true spirit of league pass rankings and things like that before we came on. And the Pelicans are weirdly climbing because there's some interesting stuff. It's still bleak. Be be clear. It is still bleak. They don't have their Pick. I don't even know if they could be. I don't even know if they tried. They could not be bad. But there are some interesting stuff going on with specifically. I was watching Trey Murphy, Zion. I didn't. That's one thing I didn't. I was wrong about that. I was just like, I don't know about Queen and Zion. It's been a little interesting. They've been doing some kind of like driveway pick and roll kind of stuff between the two of them. That's interesting. I think the thing that is, well, Zion, Queen and Trey together in. In actions has been cool. But the thing that I think I underestimated with Queen was you can't purely scapegoat him as a spot up guy that you can ignore like spatially because he's so good at driving to the basket without needing a straight line in a way that big guys just typically aren't. Like, even if you don't close on him, he's like, I'm just going to saunter towards you and just dribble to the basket. He's like, oh, you're just slowly. I'm not really worried about that. He just. And that's kind of a quality that Shingoon and Jokic also have for big guys is that they can call their own number and create paint touches in a way that a lot of other big guys can't. And then the passing and stuff pops in incredible ways that has made them fun to watch.
- [69:11]
B
I mean, you're talking about three of the better ball handling bigs in the league right now. Like, that's what that comfort comes from. And with Derrick Queen specifically might have my favorite spin move in basketball. Like the way he's just gliding off of people as he, you know, pirouettes to the rim. Incredible. Shit.
- [69:27]
A
I almost need a league pass alert for whenever Queen is like going off. Like, he had seven assists, I think in the first quarter was it the other night. And I.
- [69:35]
B
That's every game now. I know.
- [69:37]
A
I just, I want people to alert me when it's really kind of popping off. And like you've seen some of the big old boys of league history start to take note. You had Tim Duncan texting one of the sideline analysts like, oh, kind of like that Queen guy. And then Jokic, at the very least indulged the idea of a comp there more than he is typically willing to do. And so I was like, huh, Derek Queen might be something. So I watched most of that game the other night where they actually Put up a fight for a quarter and then got absolutely blitzed by the Hawks. They're fun. And they're fun in the bad ways, too, because they let that game get away from them. Queen stealing the ball when clock's going down and he's all of a sudden about to fight. Vic Creche, just like. Great. They're definitely top five on my Beat pass rankings right now.
- [70:19]
B
Really, really terrific watch. I'm so glad we have them. I'm so glad they have found ways to make their basketball fun again, if not win games.
- [70:27]
A
Right. And when they get A.J. deBonson next year. Oh, unfortunately, no.
- [70:31]
C
I don't know if he'd be the guy for them. Well, even if they could, I promise.
- [70:35]
B
You, none of them are going to be the guy for them.
- [70:37]
A
It's true.
- [70:39]
C
Doesn't matter.
- [70:41]
A
Well, since we're talking about going forward here, whose stock are you guys buying low on from this point forward? This is the last one we have on this list. I kind of know what Kyle's going to do. Am I right?
- [70:52]
C
Do you?
- [70:53]
A
I think you're going to pick the Magic winners of seven of eight.
- [70:57]
C
I don't think their stock's low anymore. I was going to say I took them off. We're going to have to circle back. I've been cracking nonstop. Non. No one's responding to them because I'm just trolling this. But we're going to have to circle back to this at some point because it's getting to the point where a question needs to be asked. Was, did something develop because Paolo was gone or did something independent of Paolo develop that he can, like, while he was gone, that he can come back and join? Is he going to disrupt it when he comes back? I just think the. I think there's a longer track for this conversation, granted, so. But that. That one's interesting to me. But we'll have to circle back sometime.
- [71:31]
A
Yeah.
- [71:32]
B
See, some of us understand that correlation and causality are not the same thing and that sometimes things just happen along the same timeline for reasons that are not necessarily causally related to.
- [71:41]
A
And some people are willing to accept. Aren't willing to accept what is plainly occurring. You know, we can put all these numbers and all this other stuff out there. I think they're just. I wouldn't say better, but certainly an easier team to watch. Certainly a more sprightly sort of unit without them there. Seven of eight. The only time they lost was that Rockets OT game that Kyle and I talked about two weeks ago. So there's something Happened there. I had them down as buying low, but I think you're right. I don't know if you could buy low at this point.
- [72:13]
B
Yeah, I think if you want to like nail it down, you could buy a low on like Desmond Bain if you want. You know, you could buy low on elements that are starting to turn around but haven't clicked in the way that the magic overall have clicked that would be eligible. But yeah, the Magic, they might be too good at this point to be a buy low candidate.
- [72:28]
A
Okay, so who do you think?
- [72:29]
C
Good price is good. I'm about to say the most common ass thing ever. So please don't just brace yourself to. I'm going to buy low on the Nets rookies because I was. There's been. This is a low one. You got to admit.
- [72:40]
A
This is a low one. That's the penny stock I was looking for.
- [72:43]
C
Penny stocks. And I was, I was looking at the way this team's built. Abysmally built as we know. If, if the team, the guys that they drafted, I just think their skill sets are in the wilderness because the top two usage players on this team are Cam Thomas at 31 and a half and MPJ at 26.2. And these, the players that they picked are defers to the point where they will just disappear. Disappear. Because the guys that they are feeding to are not reciprocating in any possible way. And then their skills. I think that Jaeger. I don't even know. Is it German Geoman?
- [73:17]
B
Yeah.
- [73:18]
A
I don't know where the okay from.
- [73:19]
C
Where the umlau come from. I didn't even know the umlaut was there. I was like. It was tight. I thought there was something on my screen. I was like rubbing on my screen. And then I was watching some Danny Wolf. I think he's going to come around. I think he's. He's been doing really, really well in the G League. They have no incentive to bring him back. They want to be terrible. It's just like, go be good there. And then Drake, Palsman, Scrap Long Island.
- [73:39]
B
You're telling us.
- [73:40]
C
I just don't. Maybe they shouldn't have kept all five. Maybe they should have kept three. But I think there are three guys there that I, I actually have kind of watched because I was unsure about it and I was like, I'm not out on them. I. I think they're. They're good players. It's just this team is a disaster.
- [73:54]
B
I mean the team's awful ultimately like a win for the Nets with these guys. Is like, if two of them are good, that's a success. And I think we, we overstate with the draft. Just like if you have multiple selections that, oh my God, you're supposed to have a hit rate of whatever. Most draft picks fail. Like most of these guys do not turn out to be long term NBA players. 60 guys are drafted every year and how many of them really and truly stick? And then among that group, how many of them are really and truly stars? It's not a robust class. And so yes, it would be great if Jeopardy. Turns out to be like a legit all star level starting point guard. It would, it would be great if like Ben Sarov could show something that would prove he's like a stable NBA player, which I don't think he's really done yet. It's, it's very early days. I'm not making any conclusive, like landing with any of these guys as of yet. Give them time. Frankly, this is a team that's going to be more exciting to watch in March than it is right now anyway.
- [74:49]
A
They're not done any favors by five to eight guys from this class just immediately having an impact on the NBA, which is just so rare. Like over the course of the season, very few rookies are ever a net positive. And you're right, it's 15 games. Like, we'll see. I think you're right. Not all five are gonna hit, but if they, if they get one or two of these guys to be like foundational contributors, they'll be fine. So I'm not worried about the nets. Yeah, but this is what, this is what you do when you're a bad team. You just cycle through bets and just hope that one hits. And so I don't really get it.
- [75:20]
B
But so yeah, it would be great if they had Cedric Coward or Derek Queen, you know, like players they were in a position to take potentially. But we do that with every draft class. Like, why didn't this team draft Rajan Rondo? It's like, it's a tale as old as time.
- [75:32]
A
Honestly, they almost had young too.
- [75:36]
C
Oh, man.
- [75:36]
B
Could have had it all.
- [75:37]
C
Yeah.
- [75:39]
A
Rob, did you give your pick?
- [75:41]
B
Not yet. I'm buying low on the Milwaukee Bucks. Is that a, is that a fair buy? Low candidate, the 8 and 9. Currently 11th place Milwaukee Bucks, I guess.
- [75:50]
A
But how much of that is driven by Giannis not being available?
- [75:53]
B
Well, that's kind of my point. I feel like we're getting in, we're, we're frothing everything up, being like, oh my God, The Raptors, oh my God, the Pistons, the Heat and the way that they're playing the season. The Knicks, who are kind of turning things around and ultimately I think people still believe in as like a legitimate contender. I just think we're going to look up and the Bucks are going to be a top four or five team in the east when all is said and done. And that's not quite on paper right now, but that's who this team is.
- [76:15]
A
Yeah, I have a similar one because my pick was the Magic. But they're playing the Celtics today, so we're recording this before that game. Celtics are almost too good to fail at this point now they've been pretty healthy, at least amongst like their core guys. And Anthony Simons is just like instantly in Joe Missoula's doghouse and like just everyone seems to hate him because they're so used to two way play. And watching a guy like shooting 23 is a game and just like score only in like 1 minute burst is like so completely anathema to what they do. But like the Mia Keda has been pretty good. Like they found some guys that like can feel they're almost, I think they're gonna be hanging around for so long. You almost wonder what will happen with Tatum and his, his timeline and all that. And like if they're still in this mix in the top 10 by like February and he comes back like all of a sudden they're pretty interesting.
- [77:04]
B
I, I hear what you're saying about them being too good to fail. Like there is a baseline for the Celtics that is keeping them afloat in a way that these other just like bad teams in the east don't have. They're also just a team in the east that because they're in the east plays a lot of bad teams. And it's. I'm really having a hard time putting my finger on like how good are the Celtics actually competitively within the broader NBA environment? They're fine. And ultimately like maybe fine is too good to fail for their circle, like their circumstances. And there are small stories within their season that are absolutely worth celebrating. But what are we buying here for the, like, for the purposes of this year? Like, like where are they going? What are they going to do beyond what they're doing right now, Competitive in.
- [77:47]
A
The east versus tanking to the degree of like the Pacers, where it's just like there's no hope. Let's just play for the pick. You're right. I think they would probably be like, like 12th in the west right now, like, they'd be probably on the level of the Utah Jazz, but since they're in the east, there's a big old opportunity to just be fine and still play some playing games and maybe a few playoff games.
- [78:07]
B
Yeah, they famously lost to the Utah Jazz. You know, they just can't measure up to the. The true elites of the Western Conference.
- [78:13]
C
I see. Trade Simons, you go the other way. I think that's what they should do.
- [78:18]
A
I don't think that would hurt them, unfortunately. You don't really? Well, I mean, I think.
- [78:22]
C
Yeah, I guess. Yeah. I don't know.
- [78:24]
A
Simons is useful for what he does, but it just doesn't seem like they particularly love his use. But you know, he'll go off like he did against the Nest the other night.
- [78:31]
C
Who couldn't have seen that coming? Anthony Simons and Joe Missoula not meshing. That was, wow, shocking.
- [78:38]
A
It's true. All right, any other stocks or anything else you guys want to get out here? After one month, reflecting upon your own personal journeys?
- [78:46]
B
After a month, I think we crushed it. You know, we gave out lots of awards. We have bought and sold stocks. We've reinvented how to consume coffee. I think we've done a lot for one pod.
- [78:55]
A
That's right. I don't even think they're necessarily awards. I think at one point you pointed out accurately, these are more superlatives. But we're not. We're not changing it now. All right, we'll be back on Wednesday, as per usual, with a little something special. We got an NBA potluck, as per usual, with a special guest. We're not going to tell you who that is. Could it be Werner Herzog? Could it be Kevin Hart who's just Hornets.
- [79:21]
B
I'm imagining the Bernard Herzog narration about Lowry Markkanen. Oh, my God.
- [79:26]
C
Why didn't we ask?
- [79:27]
A
Madness.
- [79:27]
C
Yeah.
- [79:28]
A
Chicago Bulls.
- [79:30]
B
Okay. That's Arnold.
- [79:31]
A
Yeah.
- [79:32]
C
It's tricky. I started when I. When my brain said do. Do Herzog voice, my mouth went Arnold. And I was like, oh, man, what's the difference? You know? So that's.
- [79:40]
A
I heard it in my head, but when it came out, it didn't sound anything like it. What I expected.
- [79:47]
C
Yeah, I have a rant. Just a really quick flyby. I wrote. I wrote down. I was. You'll probably, like, abbreviate.
- [79:54]
A
I've.
- [79:54]
C
I have my own, like, system of abbreviation shorthand. But I wrote down Vic Wimby. What does Vic Wimby sound like? I was like, Vic Wimby. Kind of sounds like a record. Record executive. I don't know what is. Who is Vic Wimby?
- [80:06]
B
Isn't that the main character on the shield?
- [80:08]
C
It sounds like Vic Wimby could be a. A police officer. I could see that for sure. Yeah.
- [80:14]
B
The one who doesn't play by everyone else's rules. You know, he's really skirting the line.
- [80:18]
C
Yeah. Vic Wimby, Tower records.
- [80:20]
A
Yeah. Let's wrap it there. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. We'll be back on Wednesday. We'll see you then. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18/ plus and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelp linema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.