A (2:27)

I have noticed, Rob, that you're just flashing those guns right now. I know that the future allows for it in glorious Los Angeles, but look at that. Those sleeves are getting shorter by the pod.

C (2:38)

I can assure you it is simply a camera framing issue. And as soon as we can tighten this thing up, I would really like to. I feel like there's just way too much arm happening in my shot, generally speaking, but we're living with it for.

B (2:49)

Now, depending on who you ask. Not enough farm. It seems like the people are enjoying it. I'm not going to begrudge anybody their extra, you know, joy from the pod. Whatever, man. Whatever. You know, we. Like we said before we started, we don't kink. Shame on this pod. However, you enjoy your pods, go ahead.

C (3:03)

Pro Kink Basketball podcast. Maybe the only Pro Kink basketball podcast.

A (3:08)

I don't know. I don't know if you've listened to Zach Lowe recently. He's into some stuff. All right. On today's podcast, we're going to get into three separate panic teams, some panicking a little bit more than others. Unfortunately, it's taken me a while to determine which teams are panicking when because I can no longer log into my Twitter account. So I'm behind, like, at least an hour on most NBA news. I remember seeing Jimmy Butler go down. We're going to talk about the Warriors a little later. But it took until the following morning until I learned that he had torn his acl. Uh, I'm just like, I. I feel like I'm. I'm in 1999 here, where I'm open up to the. The morning paper in order to figure out what's going on.

B (3:51)

See, I wonder why you were offering deals on laptops. I was going to text you and say, is it.

A (3:57)

Is it laptops now? Because it started off as crypto coaching.

C (4:00)

I just. Yeah, I thought that one was actually you. I thought the laptops were fake. This is where we're really trying to.

B (4:05)

That's the hairs. Which of them was more believable just in crypto coaching. Clear.

A (4:11)

Clear.

B (4:11)

Obvious one.

C (4:12)

Yeah.

B (4:12)

Who at the rigor is most likely to offer, like, a deal on laptops? I could see Tyler doing that.

C (4:16)

Oh, sure.

B (4:17)

Trying to think. Yeah.

C (4:18)

Selling them out of the back of a van in a Walmart parking lot like his. Tyler could do it.

B (4:23)

His Dodge truck or whatever it is.

A (4:25)

Yeah, I just. I don't know what happened. I clicked the link. I was trying to help out a fellow colleague. The link. Well, here's the thing. It was tailored specifically not only to the person who, who like DM'd me, but also like to like this certain situation that would get me to click on it. It was like, hey, I'm up for this, like, hosting thing, yada. Can you go and vote for me? And I was like, sure, I'll help help a brother out. Unfortunately, that turned out to be just like malware or whatever is going on. I can't get back into my Twitter account. I've tried furiously to email, like tech support. They won't give a shit. I actually had to email my license photo over to them so this could.

B (5:05)

Keep razor DM you, Justin, and you were flattered and you thought, oh, what happened?

A (5:10)

Basically, I wish.

C (5:13)

I. I just can't believe you willingly were like, yeah. Hey, Twitter slx. Here's a copy of my driver's license. That seems like a great idea.

A (5:20)

I got to double down.

B (5:22)

I say no to everything. I'm a member of no club. No. No reward systems, nothing at stores. I don't do it. They don't even ask anymore. My local one.

C (5:31)

Yeah, okay. Anti rewards is crazy, but almost as. Almost as crazy as Justin, you going out of your way to do a nice thing for a fellow media member.

A (5:39)

Don't do that.

B (5:40)

I do that.

A (5:42)

A friend out.

C (5:43)

This is what I'm saying. I hope you don't take the wrong lesson away from this. I hope this doesn't, you know, pull you deeper into your shell.

A (5:50)

No. If anything, it's definitely going to do that because I remember when I used to respond to people's emails, it just got worse over time where people would ask more and more. So I stopped responding to any cold emails. This is going to be the same thing where I just shut off the entire world. I'm going to live in my bubble, just pumping while I watch games. That's going to be it.

B (6:09)

I guess that's what I'm anti. I'm not anti rewards on like airline stuff. I want to be clear if it's like grocery level type stuff, I just wanted because I know people are going to say something because they sell your information. That's just like, I don't participate in stuff like that.

C (6:22)

So not all of us live the bougie lifestyle you do, Kyle, where you can just flaunt. I don't need your coupon savings at the grocery store.

B (6:29)

Not what it's It's a trade off. I'd rather. I'd trade the coupon savings for the bullshit. I just don't. I'm very anti. I'm staying out of the bullshit. That's my thing.

C (6:36)

That's.

A (6:36)

I love a. I love a coupon, by the way.

C (6:39)

Hell yeah.

A (6:39)

Get. Get those emailed to me as well. So that's the one good email that I'll ever engage with. All right, today's pod panic teams got to start first and foremost with the New York Knickerbockers. Hard to miss their panic because it's practically been happening since the middle of December. Lost nine over the past 11, lost four straight as we're recording this Wednesday morning. So practically since New Year's Eve, Rob, they've been a pretty shit team. I guess the question is, is this the real Knicks or is it the earlier version where it seemed like not only were they good, it seemed that there was a promising start to something more than they were even last season.

C (7:16)

Yeah, the first month of the season, or so I thought. Their ball movement, even though it had a learning curve to it, seemed like there was real purpose there, right? They were driving and kicking. There's like a lot of layered action. It was exactly kind of what we all thought we were signing up for with the Mike Brown, like, portion of this experience with the Knicks that is just like falling away. And there's just like a listlessness to the way they play on offense right now, where the defense has been in disaster zone levels for a long time. Players on the team are calling it like actively embarrassing on a regular basis. Things are quite bad. But to me the damning part is like even just watching from a feel perspective, I don't have a lot of faith that the offense is going to be able to bail it out as consistently as they need it to. To be one of the best teams in the league, one of the best teams in the Eastern Conference. It's just, it's not clicking at that level right now. And if Jalen Brunson isn't doing absolutely Herculean shit, they often just kind of fall apart. And even sometimes when he does, they still fall apart. This episode is brought to you by Firehouse Subs. Who just dropped a game changing sandwich? The French dip. Literally one of my favorite sandwiches slash subscribers. Roast beef, caramelized onions, melty cheese, little freshly toasted garlic butter roll, and the warm savory au jus. I've been eating these forever. Since I was living on the east coast in la, I Think to me this versus the cheesesteak. The French dip. No contest. Way better. And I think it's really because of the au jus. I don't know anybody who doesn't like au jus. An elite game day sub. Fun to order, by the way, if you want it delivered. Because they usually put the au jus in the special little container. You can pour it on. Knock yourself out. The French dip here for a limited time. I wish it was longer. Only at firehouse subs. Limited time at participating firehouse subs restaurants while supplies last.

B (9:12)

Do you think at the core of this it's just the duality of. Or just the duo of Brunson and Kat just is problematic. And it's not duality, it's the polarity. Like the. The two batteries just like they don't produce energy. Like it's just they're pointed ends pointed at the same. Because Brunson, like we know, prefers to score little smaller. Then you get Cat. I just feel like his pick and pop activity hasn't been quite the same. Efficiencies at the rim. Efficiencies from three are down. And I. I just kind of wonder is that. Does. Does it start there and then when you. You stack those. Those wings who aren't particularly great playmakers themselves, they're okay. But it. Does it kind of create this offensive stagnation that is a little. Since it's such a. Not natural fit. It's just really difficult to overcome because that's kind of what I see when I watch them. You talk about they're really trying to go out of their way to move the ball.

A (10:04)

Yeah.

B (10:04)

But you're just settling back into the. Just like the resignation of like this doesn't feel supernatural. It's not easy. Like over time. Is that. Do you. What do you all think about that?

A (10:14)

I think the big concern is a lot of the things that you could nitpick that have led to these recent results remind me a lot of the struggles from last year. Just on a much higher scale. Like the. It's a much more extreme result than we got at times last year because for a while that team didn't click until the end. And even in the playoffs you could gripe about like, well, they probably could have lost that Detroit series. It wasn't really the long stride. We've got this all figured out and we're going to conquer the world sort of approach that I think we all expected when they put that team together. It's not really an athletic team. The defensive issues are Always going to be there. Not a ton of ball handling. But as Rob was alluding to, the offense can at times be electric, and at times last year it was certainly that. They're still overall this season very good on offense. But I think the problem is twofolds. One, if the offense can't be absolute elite with the Bullet, if Brunson cannot save them in a lot of those crunch time situations, then the bottom falls out pretty quickly. I also think you're hearing a lot about chemistry concerns and just not being on the right page. Perhaps that's just the. The compounding effect of playing with Cat over a full season. Perhaps that's just the fact that they leaned on Tibbs not only for structure, but perhaps to get them in line whenever they would kind of fall off. And so I think it's a lot of things that could be the construction of the team first and foremost. But also maybe they just needed Tibs, if only because he provided something that they're not getting elsewhere. Maybe it's not a Brown question, Rob. Maybe it's just the fact that it's an absence of Tibs or what he brought. In terms of just the cohesion, I.

C (11:51)

Think it's totally possible. And just like the focus and the determination and the commitment to their principles like Tom Thibodeau, teams do the all of those things quite well. Mike Brown teams sometimes do, sometimes don't. Moreover, with this collection of players, you're right, this is a longer standing problem that went deep into last season and just never quite got resolved. I think as much of anything, it just got papered over by the team coalescing a little bit, getting guys like Mitchell Robinson back in the mix that kind of made up for some of their deficiencies. And now they're just in a place where like Kyle, I'm so fascinated by this question that you posed about like kind of what is almost like the original sin of this team. Is it like that, that polarity issue? Is it the incompatibility on offense? Is it the incompatibility on defense? It's like with a team like the Knicks, do you hang their troubles on them not being elite at the thing they're supposed to be elite at or being so flawed on defense, all not quite by design, but by allowance and that being the thing that kind of upsets the apple card and upsets the balance of the team? I think I ultimately come down in agreement on like the offense being the fundamental issue here. The defense is by far their worst side of the ball. But I Don't think any of us expected this to be a shutdown defensive team. I. They were always going to be the kind of group that could paper things together, have enough wing defense, have enough activity to sort of get by. They don't have that right now. But the real problem is they don't have any of the juice that's supposed to carry them. And when you're not good at the things you're supposed to be good at, like that to me is the far bigger problem.

A (13:19)

Yeah, I guess the question is how much of it is in the original construction of the team. Because not only did they sacrifice depth, which immediately became more paramount across the league, but the fact that like their core players, which they're paying so much to and are counting on to be so important for them, just aren't. If they're not going to fit seamlessly together, you really do kind of sacrifice the main advantage, the kind of entire thrust of trading for four star players. If you want to conclude OG and Bridges into that mix, we can kind of quibble over that. And so you really need those guys to be playing at a certain level and not all of them are. Bridges is actually kind of settled into, I think, a nice little role there. Probably we never will get to the next version of him or whatever level up version that we thought we would get to. But OG has been good at times. The shot isn't there, but I think Kat is the main guy that people are pointing to in part because, like, if he's not going to bring it offensively. We talked about this last pod when we talked about our all star reserves, like, what else is he doing? There was actually this really interesting clip from Carmelo Anthony. They were talking about it on NBC. I don't know if you guys saw this, but I guess he was at a game. Cat airballed it in the fourth and Melo said something to him like, you know, just like, let it go. Just go to the next play. And Cat responded to him and Melo was like, dude, you shouldn't be talking to me. You should be locked in. And if anything, that was a telltale sign to him, Carmelo, that Cat was like, just not in it. Like, he was not in the flow of the game. He was allowing things to get. I hear what you're saying, like, yeah, because kind of sounds like how dare.

C (14:54)

You respond to the thing I said.

B (14:56)

It's a symptom, it's not a disease. But. And there are a lot of symptoms here, I think, that are. That are not so Great. And this was, this was part of my argument for the Cat, where I had some reticence to put Cat with that group of players, with the all star group of players. Because overall, from 3, Cat is just a guy. When you look at the types of shots that he likes to take, you know, I was going back this morning being like, am I losing my mind about the, like, he really, really likes to take pick and pop shots where he's taking like one step. He's not somebody who like, boogies a ton off, you know, off the. Granted how many 7 footers, 6, 11 guys do in the league, not many of those guys don't really exist. But at the rim, it's really curious too, because this is the lowest rim efficiency he's had since he wasn't even this inefficient as a, as a rookie. And I was like, is it concentrated to. To certain types of teams? And I have noticed that. You know, for. First of all, I want to say that, you know, we were texting about how the Mavericks basically were the danger Will Robinson moment, really, where it was like, okay, this isn't. This isn't just a, like, we're kind of wandering dog days type thing. This is a real problem. Like, the Mavs came in and. And just demoralized them with their energy and just their want to. And. And Cat is. When he's driving to the basket, I think he's facing problems whether it is physically he's not right or when he's driving into contact. I was noting noticing against big guys that can really move, he's just hitting these weird dead ends that end with him taking these weird shots. Now against somebody like Dwight Powell, his solution for that was to repeatedly kick Dwight Powell in the nuts. I don't know if you guys saw that footage. But then he also was starting to have more problems against teams with really solid help dig concepts like like.

A (16:32)

Or.

B (16:32)

I wrote down Orlando, Boston, Miami. Those were teams that were just. He looks more uncomfortable, I feel like, than he ever has. And I don't know what that's a result of. Is it just that he is physically different or is it the Knicks and their spacing are different? I'm not sure.

C (16:44)

I mean, I think some of it is the flow, for sure. Anytime you're talking about bigs and how comfortable they are inside, and especially it's where are they getting the ball and how are they getting momentum going to the basket? Are they getting free dump offs around the rim? There's just like none of that in New York's offense right now. And Cat can create some things for himself, but he's also been the kind of player for a long time who, if you don't carve out avenues for him, he can disappear offensively for like five straight minutes. Other than maybe he'll commit like an offensive foul or maybe he'll come up with a couple of rebounds or second chance opportunities. But he's such a weird talent to place. And this is, this is part of the problem in Minnesota. It's been kind of part of the ongoing problem in New York. You have to make him a priority if you want him to be one. And Jalen Brunson, for all his great strengths as a player, doesn't necessarily read the game that way. Like, Jalen Brunson, understandably, is like the, the top priority of the Knicks offense. And from that you would hope that there's like a natural outflow and growth, but it just hasn't been there in any kind of stable way all season.

A (17:46)

Yeah, they had a players only meeting after that Dallas game. They also had a players only huddle. It seemed like at times, which is like a new little wrinkle of this. They couldn' wait till they got back into the locker room in order to try to rally the troops. It didn't work. I also think an important part of this is just the tension provided by the stakes of trading for Cat more than it is like, even just trading because Dolan is out there talking to wfan, being like, we're going to make the Finals, we're actually probably going to win it all. And so I think all of these things combined. I do have to wonder if the rubber is going to meet the road at the trade deadline because the results are so extreme. They're so loud, especially in New York. And it got loud during that Mavericks game to the point where Spike Lee, as he was going into halftime was like, literally like, what the fuck is going on to, to the, the, the broadcast booth? I think you have to start considering options here. I guess the problem overall, though, is like, how do you trade Cat, who is presumably the one you would want to move when he's the one struggling the most and thus would be less appealing to everyone you would want to trade him to.

C (18:50)

Yes. And is already kind of a complex fit for all the reasons we described. Like, the problems he presents for the Knicks are going to be problems he presents for any other team he goes to. Which is why I'm, I'm open to, I think, bigger permutations of this, like if there's a Mikhail Bridges trade that makes sense, I'm a little loath to trade OG because I think the kind of player he is is just immensely valuable, especially in the postseason. But if there's a way to shake this up that would make the team make more sense, I'm open to it at this point. Like the. The Knicks, I think, need something pretty dramatic. They need a jolt, because right now they look like a team that kind of just stepped on the court together and has never played together before, that doesn't really know their systems, at least allegedly what their systems are on either side of the ball and often just can't be bothered to do basically anything that they're supposed to be doing. If. If all three of those things are true, something is kind of broken within this group, and I. I'm willing to entertain almost any possibility that doesn't involve Jalen Brunson to get them some life.

B (19:46)

Again, Pinot wants to trade Brunson. We talked about this the other day that he said. I think if he goes public with that take, he won't be able to leave his apartment in. In Brooklyn or wherever he lives. No, I just think it's. There's an interesting thing that goes on with roster construction where, you know, we have 30 teams in the league, we're all aiming for the same thing, and there are some players that we get lured into the idea of, like, what. What are they capable of carrying on a given team? You know, it's like, are they capable of being the center of that team? It's like, yeah, that's good. And we all feel great about that and we have some fun, but it's like winning at the highest level, obviously, is a different thing. And just when I look at Brunson, as much fun as I have and is incredible the things that he does at his height and he's able to rob. You said making something out of nothing on Bill's pod. Absolutely true. Like Chris. Chris Paul, levels of incredible stuff that's going on with him, but he's more of a scorer. And I think you. I heard somebody. I think it might have been Jason Hart when he was coaching the Ignite. That's a nerdy deep cut. Sorry. But he was talking about how Scoot Henderson was a points guard and he needed him to be more of a point guard, a 0.5 guard. And I really think that Brunson. I know that's like a. That's a.

C (20:50)

It's such coach bullshit. Like, I. I applaud it, but it is true.

B (20:55)

No, that's true.

C (20:55)

It is.

B (20:56)

It's a funny. It's a funny thing, but it is like Brunson to me is a. A points guard. And I think when you talk about the conditionality, that if that's even a word, the conditions that need to exist around somebody like Brunson to get to the highest level. It's hard enough to build a championship level team around a six. One guy. Like, that's really difficult. And then you add in the conditions that need. That cat needs. I just wonder if it's too many conditions at some point, like, because I don't really. Would we agree that. I think the east in general, I think, think that they're all just sort of like, you know, falling over themselves for the right to lose to whoever the Western Conference champion is. I'll eat my words if I'm wrong, but they don't have a championship ceiling, do they?

C (21:34)

What are we doing?

B (21:35)

They probably need to make a move, honestly, if that's what they want to do.

A (21:38)

Well, if we were to. To rank like, the problems here, like one through three or whatever it is, like, what's number one? Is it chemistry between these guys that, like, they just fix that all of a sudden they could hit a certain stride that they did last year, which is good enough to get to the, to the second round or the. The east finals. Is it Cat specifically? Is it whatever Mike Brown is trying isn't reaching them? Like, Rob, what's number one on that list?

C (22:06)

List? I think number one is that almost no player on this roster right now is actively making another player or combination of players better. Like, there just isn't that synergy. It's not even like the chemistry is part of it, but I think it also. Tyler K, except Tyler Kolek, you know, being the rising tide that lifts all boats. I just think there is. There's the chemistry part within that. Then there is like, the compatibility of their skill sets. Like, all of that to me falls under the same umbrella, which is just like, how do you get back to the greater than the sum of your parts kind of feeling that has guided and propelled the best Knicks teams and really these playoff runs of the last couple years.

A (22:47)

Would you agree, Kyle? That's like number one? Or you're like, actually, this is a cat problem. They moved him for something more easy to fit around those three other guys. This would actually work a little better.

B (22:59)

It's all just so interconnected. I mean, the cat. I. I can't separate them. Just to me, the B The basketball, Stu and the chemistry stuff, I mean, I've had people. This is. I don't know how comfortable you all are, like, purely speculating about chemistry. We don't. We don't have any fucking clue. We're not in there. I don't know.

C (23:13)

They're having players only meetings.

B (23:17)

We know they are. We know. We can see that. I'm just saying. And Carl is an interesting personality. He's not terribly dissimilar from deandre Ayton. I just feel like Ayton's a little bit more leaning back and Carl's a little more leaning forward. He's just a little more uppity. I think they're similar kind of guys. They're just kind of up and down. I think Carl's more skilled, obviously, but I just think if you look at them, there's an interesting thing going on where, like the. No, we praise the Nova Nicks thing at the core of their team as the power. And it's also like, if things started to go south, you could easily also see where there's like this fortified thing at the center that, like, is it penetrable in a way, for. For in. In a chemistry way? You know, granted, they traded Dante. I'm purely speculating. I'm just. It all seems interconnected. And when. When you have chemistry, sort of tension. I mean, there have been really good teams that have, you know, when the. The day the season's over, they're like, I never want to see you again. I'm sure that happens on teams, but when things start to go south, it's are just not going great.

C (24:11)

Yeah.

B (24:12)

You were arguing about their losses. Had been to decent teams. It's like, do they get credit for that? Like, I don't. Like, they. They should be beating some of these teams. So I don't. I don't know. I just. I. I'm spinning my wheels with the Knicks where I'm like, it's hard to believe in them and it's hard to really believe that they're going to. They're going to dig out of this to anything more than just like, well, that was a good run, you know?

C (24:30)

Yeah.

A (24:30)

Well, I feel like we need to cut to Dante DiVincenzo and Julius Randle right now, who are just at like TGI Fridays just like cheersing their chicken fingers or whatever right now because they have made out like gangbusters in this. Randall looks like a. He might make an all star if there are enough injuries there. DiVincenzo has played well this season. I just, I have to look back on that trade, Rob, and wonder like, is there any rationale to trading for Cat? If you had hindsight right now, would you still do that? I think more likely than not you would say no.

C (25:05)

If you knew everything you know now, it. It's obviously a harder sell. Right? I. I want to say a couple things. One, I agree with you that the Wolves, generally speaking, are in a great place. They also just got their asses worked by the Jazz last night. So maybe they're not cheersing right at this exact moment. Or at least maybe it's a different kind of cheersing.

A (25:22)

But cats more boneless wings as opposed to chicken fingers.

C (25:27)

Oh yeah, it's definitely a boneless wing. Kind of a boneless wing is the consolation wing. If you win, you get the actual wings. If not, you have to settle for boneless.

B (25:35)

But I like boneless wings.

A (25:36)

I don't know.

C (25:38)

Well, then I guess you like losing. Kyle, I don't know what to tell you. I. I think with Cat, it's not like the Knicks didn't know what they were getting into. They knew why he was available, which is he has this incredibly huge con contract that can be hefty and a little prohibitive and complicated to work around. They had seen who he was as a member of the Wolves. The Julius Randall they traded was not the player he's been over the last especially year.

B (26:02)

Absolutely not. Different dude.

C (26:04)

Totally different dude. And like I. I say that to give credit to Randall for the way he's just like reformed a lot of his game, focused a lot of its like looser parts. Like he's just become an incredibly driven one on one creator and score a great playmaker for that team. Like he's been the best version and the ideal vers version of Julius Randall for the Wolves in so many ways. Granted, trading two good players for one, especially when that one can be as frustrating as Cat, that's where it gets tough. And I think that's where like it was a trade of very like huge talents but also huge headaches. And in that respect, the Wolves have had far fewer headaches from the Randall divincenzo part of their deal than the Knicks have with Kat. So like that feels like a trade one for the Wolves. At least. At least an imbalance of a kind. But I don't know, like, the Knicks have had playoff success too. I don't mean to write off everything that they've done. It's just everything that they are right now. It. It feels precarious in a way that I wish it didn't.

A (27:02)

Yeah, I think for a lot of that trade, it was probably the opportunity cost was so low because it was cat for two guys who they could afford to lose at that point. Right. I think you're right about Randall. I also worried that Randall trying to glom onto the version of the team that had kind of formed without him or kind of tangential to him was probably. And he probably wasn't going to give up whatever authority he had in that locker room, considering what he did before Brunson and some of those other guys got in there. So that was always naughty. DiVincenzo is a good player, but not a type of player you can live without. But it just didn't cost them much to do it. And so I got it at the time for that reason. And also there was like some weird, like, technical issues where they're about to hit the second or come close enough to the second apron where they couldn't do it because they needed, like, the two way guys or their, their training camp guys, like, for whatever. They didn't pay much. The problem I always had was in concert with the Bridges trade.

C (28:00)

Right.

A (28:00)

But the problem was the Bridges trade was even less of a price because it was just draft picks that they're not going to need because they're. They're totally fine. They're going to be in the low 20s. And so, like, well, they would need.

C (28:08)

Him if they wanted to trade for Giannis or wanted to make a different kind of deal. Right. Like, that's the opportunity cost.

B (28:14)

You're punching that flexibility.

A (28:16)

Although I don't know if you're trading for Giannis. If you're the Bucks right now, would you rather Mikhail Bridges or a couple picks in the 20s, like, with the possibility of getting into the teens?

C (28:26)

I. I don't know. I mean, I think the problem is trading all those picks closes a lot of doors that you needed to at least be a jar. Right. That you needed to at least have the option to, like, make those calls and kick tires. And the Knicks don't have a lot of that. Like, we can throw them into the trade machine as much as we want and talk about, like, oh, maybe, maybe the panic has risen to a level now where they would trade. Like, they'll, they'll make a sweetheart offer for someone like Giannis, but, like, I don't even know what that looks like at this point.

A (28:51)

Point. Yeah, I think Giannis is going to be the obvious. Like. Like, we need to go and build our future around this possibility. I don't know why the Knicks would do that considering that they've done that for decades and it hasn't worked out. But, like, more power to you, if anything. I do wonder if they could turn Cat first and foremost, maybe Bridges, into two players and basically revert to the version that they were before, where at the very least, they had an identity and, like, they found some version of it in last year's playoffs. But they were at their best when they were frothing at the mouth and they were just dogs who would, like, go on the floor. That's why I think Heart, for instance, Kyle, is such an important player for them is because he really does embody, I think, the best of their. Their, like, what they were about. If you could turn Cat into, like, two rotation players, I might do it at this point. I think I'm at that point. Point.

B (29:43)

Oh, man. At that point, who's your starting five? Do you just go Mitchell in the starting lineup or Mitchell Robinson and who's your. Who's your five? Or you hope one of those guys is a five? Like, I like the idea. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I. I kind of like the idea of AD with them. Like, I thought that was at least interesting, but I don't know what. Where. Where do you go with the five if that's the case? Do you try to bolster yourself defensively or what do you think?

A (30:06)

Yeah, I think Mitchell Robinson's is fine. I also think, like, identifying Hartenstein at the time and like, bringing him in in the back end. Clearly the. The front office isn't bad at player identification, and so, like, maybe lean on that a little bit more as opposed to tracing these bigger names, which really, like, hasn't worked out for them all that well.

C (30:25)

If we're talking original sins of this team. In addition to the Cat trade, losing Isaiah Hartenstein has turned out to be a pretty huge deal for them. Not just because he's a really good player and exactly the kind of, like, work a day, low maintenance, big that they could really use at times. But it just feels like over the last three years or so, they have just shaved off bits of who they are, bits of their identity, bits of the team that they were trying to be. And you're right, Justin, they chased big names, they made the deal for Kat, and made a huge talent play in the process. They tried to supplement it with, you know, Wings, who could theoretically make up for some of his defensive deficiencies. It's just you didn't ever make up for the part. Like, you never compensated for what was making you whole in the first place. Right. Like, the core of what the Knicks were has changed dramatically. And I don't know that anyone involved in kind of the. The culture and the making of that team is fully reckoned with that fact.

A (31:18)

So on the list of things wrong with the Knicks, I think we've brought up a lot of good, good suggestions here. I think number one with the bullet cup curse, they're just cursed. They won the cup, and any team that wins the cup is cursed for an entire season. So do.

C (31:34)

Do you think this is a curse of, like, how dare you try hard for a couple weeks in these games and thus are too tired to compete afterwards? There something like supernatural happening here. Like, you go to Las Vegas and you come back changed.

A (31:48)

I think it's that, like, I think David Stern is like, why have you ruined my product? You're just. You're just trying to reach for this, like, soccer style thing. That wasn't what we were about. We were about forcing guys into suits and doing what they're told. How dare you try to think differently? What if now you're going to be punished?

C (32:06)

But see, what if the problem is not that they won the cup, it's that they won it and didn't hang the banner for the cup is that they didn't honor. They didn't honor the process and the achievement. And in doing so, the basketball gods have struck them down and said, you know what? If you're not about this, we don't want to be about you.

B (32:24)

You got the rare double from Justin and I there. That was a points awarded for you there, right?

C (32:30)

Honestly, the harmonizing on it was beautiful. Like, you guys, you guys were basically the beach Boys.

A (32:36)

You want to work on our. Our tones here?

C (32:38)

I think it was. We'll get it.

B (32:42)

Yeah.

A (32:44)

All right. Why don't we take a break? When we come back, we'll talk about some of these other teams. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. FanDuel is putting you in control right from tip off. That's right. You get to choose your reward. Play it safe, go for it. Feeling bold. That's your move. Whatever your style, you're in control no matter how you play. FanDuel's giving you the power to choose your award and own your game this NBA season. Head to FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to make your pick. Get in the game and play it your way. 21 and present in select states or 18 and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in Required rewards are non withdrawable. Restrictions apply including bonus and token expiration, leg requirements and max wager amount. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help. Call 1-887-89-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. Things are pretty bleak in Golden State right now, not only for one Jimmy Butler individually, but as a team, and in particular Steph Curry, whose future, the waning twilight of his career looks pretty, pretty dark right now. But I want to start on a high note. So last night as they were getting absolutely lambasted by the Raptors, a glimmer of hope appeared. 2 minutes to go in the game and that little ray of light was Malavay Leon's who came off the bench and played two minutes. Missed a shot, got a rebound, was a minus three. But he's back.

C (34:18)

His fault.

A (34:19)

That's right. How are you feeling about this?

C (34:22)

Yeah, him getting sporadic minutes in these games had been kind of a good thing because the warriors had been winning. And you know, that's great if you can get Malefilians on the floor in the closing minutes. Wonderful for everyone involved. I also hope you guys saw Ben Cruz sent me when he was first brought into the warriors and he did his introductory press conference. He went around and personally introduced himself to every single person in the room because he's a gentleman in addition to a great Warrior already. So what do we have to worry about? Yes, they lost Jimmy Butler, you know, a great one on one creator, a versatile defender, a star in his own right, one of the most important players on the team. But they have Malafi Leon's just waiting in the wings to assume. I would, I would think all of that responsibility and more really, you know.

B (35:05)

If the season's gonna fall apart at least. Yeah, like you said, we can lean back on the a warrior of friendship and networking, quite frankly, because a lot of those people probably had no clue who he was. So that was a, that was a genuine. And you know, Lyons is, is one of those sicko G League heroes. I saw a lot of in the deepest sicko recesses of Twitter, a lot of celebrating that he was getting his chance. A lot of OKC Blue season ticket holders pumping their fists, being happy. Yeah, the greater kind of warriors to put a pin in something. I guess that is is fairly obvious. I guess anybody who's watching is this is more of a going we, we can't really we can criticize where the warriors were as a basketball team currently. I think it was moving in a positive direction. This is more of a dirge at this point about lamenting the death of possibility at this point, basically. Right.

C (35:55)

Well, I think. I think the dirge. The volume on that is turned up because they had been kind of putting something together. Right. Like, this is. They had weirdly been one of the most effective offenses in the league over the last.

A (36:06)

Volume up on that dirge, baby. Let's go.

B (36:08)

Yeah.

C (36:09)

What do we do if not crank dirges up to 11 on this pot? Like, that really is our energy, and unfortunately, we have to do it to Golden State, because I. I really just don't know what you do without Jimmy Butler. Like, this is a piece they could not afford to lose in so many ways, and we could talk about all the downstream impacts of that, but. But for now, it just, like, takes all of the wind out of the sails of a team that really looked like it was coming together.

A (36:32)

So 12 and 4 over their past 16 right before last night. So that's since December 20th. So it's a good little stretch of games. I think we talked about how some of the veterans that they've been waiting for, Melton in particular, Horford, finally, like, rounding into something and playing consistently, definitely stabilized in a way that I think we all kind of hoped would. Unfortunately. Yeah, I just don't know how they go on without Butler. And I also don't know how you find a solution with Butler's contract. If you wanted to be really cutthroat about it, maybe trade him and use him as salary ballast to go do something. But he makes 54 million this year, makes 57 next year. I just don't know who's willingly open to that unless you're giving back a bunch of just nonsense and just spare parts that I don't think really changes anything for them this year. And so, Kyle, I think you're right. Like, I think Steph Curry's what seemed to be, like, at the very least, like, a good, hearty try at making the most of these last kind of years becomes super complicated, if not, like, perhaps buried in the way that, like, LeBron kind of has been, where he's just, like, he's trying his best, he's playing these games, he's putting forward good performances, but the. The context around him just isn't capable of providing him enough.

B (37:47)

Yeah, I mean, it's like. Which would you prefer, people? It's like, we. We, on the one hand, laud the The Danny Ainge mentality that he learned from Red Auerbach, not. Not being ruthless and not trading those Celtic stars when they were starting to age. He was like, I learned my lesson. And we kind of praised that. But I really think there. There is. I know Zach says this all the time. I think that there is a lot to be respected and honored about just kind of dying on the battlefield. Like, Rob and I joke about that we're going to do and pick up. I just think the fact that they've. They've really tried and it's. It's sort of fizzling out. It's like, it just kind of seems. I'm sure they'll do something. I know that, you know, Dunleavy had the bar of the century with the, you know, if you're going to make it a man, there needs to be a demand kind of thing there. Maybe they just, you know, try, you know, one more time into the breach with Jonathan Kaminga and hope that he had something. I think I would just try to swing at somebody. They might as well, right? I mean, we've come this far. They're not just going to ride it out and be. And be sad sacks and be like, well, we don't have a chance. I think the fact that they were willing to make that move for Butler shows that they're. They're willing to do whatever they can to. To. To honor this good luck and good fortune that they've had and this loyalty that they've had with Steph Curry. So if. If it was me, I would just try to find somebody. One. One big, one last swing, one last fight, you know, find somebody that values Kaminga. I don't know who that is at this point, though, because we were even joking about the Nets being like, yeah, we're good. Who is it? I don't even know that.

C (39:10)

I mean, that's really the trouble with that whole situation. And you could view these next couple weeks as a Runway into the trade deadline for Jonathan Kamingo, where he's going to have to play, like, just by default. He's going to have to be a factor in this team. I just don't know that he's going to prove anything to anybody that he hasn't already proven to them one way or another. Like, who is he going to be over the next couple weeks that he hasn't already been.

A (39:32)

Well, I thought last night was telling. So he had 20 points in 21 minutes and actually turned it on just as he was starting to get going. And it is Funny, because the entire rest of the team was playing as if the Charlie Brown cloud was just looming over everything they did. There was just like no pep to anything. But then Kaminga gets off the bench and he is ready to fucking fly. He played with more want to and effort than I've seen from him in a while. And we've talked about, like, what would be the ideal situation for Kaminga. Right. In order to at the very least provide a showcase to be the type of player he thinks he can be. And I think it is a team with nothing to play for. And I think, unfortunately, that might just be the warriors at this point. I was. I've been rewatching Mad Men recently and you know when they have to go to McCann and Peggy Olson, like, has the meeting with the head hun her, and she's like, what's out there for me? Like, where can he go? And the guy's like, McCann Erickson, where she was going to go. I kind of think that that's the situation for Kaminga. His best case scenario is to slide into these minutes, force Kerr to play him because he has to. He needs players and just do the best you can and hopefully they can move together and like, go through all this shit again in the off season.

C (40:41)

Yeah, I think, I mean, he is look the one guy on the team who is well positioned to do more than he was being asked to do because he was being asked to do literally nothing. Right. To not even contribute to their, like, on court goings.

A (40:53)

Yeah.

C (40:54)

So, yeah, putting in Jonathan Kaminga like that, there's some headroom there. The issue with losing Jimmy Butler more broadly, like, for one, you lose one of the most direct ways this team has to create offense, which is Jimmy Butler getting to the free throw line. Outside of that, everything they do is really hard and takes a lot of orchestration and a lot of effort and a lot out of Steph Curry. And asking Brandon Pajimski to do more creation, like, that's not really what he's suited for right now. Asking D. Anthony Melton to level up as a creator, again, not really what he's been brought here to do at all. And so when you look across the supporting cast, even the guys who've been playing well, and those guys have been playing quite well over the last month or so, Buddy Healed is kind of pop back into the rotation. Maybe he can give them some scoring if nothing else, but there's nothing there that can compensate for Jimmy Butler. And Jonathan Kaminga can absorb minutes. He will put up points In a way, will it feel, I don't know at all, like, holistic with everything else the warriors are doing? History tells us probably not. But the time for the warriors to be the best complete version of themselves is over. It is done. It is buried, it is sealed away with Jimmy Butler's surgery on this ACL that's not coming back. And so I would hope that there's an opportunity for him. I just. We know Jonathan Kaminga too well to believe in this too much and to believe that it's going to go anywhere all that meaningful for Golden State. I still hope for the best for them and for everybody involved. Because you're right. Like, anytime you see a player as legendary as Steph who's done everything that he has and often done it so thanklessly even, even for a player who is as revered as he is, you hate to see seasons go sideways in this way.

A (42:30)

I don't want to be too maudlin, but it does feel like. Like a bit of an end for what could have been a nice little kick here to the Steph Curry end of his career. We'll see. He can make miracles happen. He might make something out of this. I don't want to put it past him. We'll see next year. We'll see how quickly Butler comes back. He'll be on expiring at that point. Maybe there's something to do on top of that. But I'll be honest, I started to even just like, think back on, like, where the. The problem was. Ultimately. I. I think the two timeline thing has been well documented. How much of a disaster has been.

C (43:01)

Yeah.

A (43:02)

But I do wonder. Going for Butler specifically was a signal that they acted too late in order to make the decision to turn toward the present as opposed to trying to, like, walk the line. And it's just sad, like, because they had an opportunity as like, I look back and all their high draft picks, like, not only do these players, like, they're pretty okay. They're actually not a lot of misses beyond Wiseman. It's really just like players who just didn't become what they needed them to be or perhaps were projecting them to be, but to not spin them into anything of high value. It's not surprising that even with Butler, they were middling because they've kind of like stayed in the middle of both of these two sort of approaches.

B (43:43)

It makes you wonder if there was division in the front office among, like, in the seed of the. Are we talking about the original sin? I think that this entire era, we're Mourning it. We're like, you know, this is just. We're doing this way later than we would have done, just because I think this is sort of an extinction burst, basically of a thing that was going to go extinct. I don't know if you've ever heard people talk about that. But I. I think that it was over. You know, we really technically was over in terms of contention in 22. It was a miracle. It was amazing that they did that, despite the fact that I've always contended this, that I think personally they betrayed their core philosophy with those two picks. When they had the chance to do the dual timeline thing when they picked Kuminga and Wiseman, those were not.

A (44:24)

I.

B (44:24)

Even somebody is probably going to be like, stop, you know, get out of your head, out of your own ass here. But like I. I wrote in the draft, God, I was like, if the warriors get Halliburton, the rest of the league is screwed. Because it was so. And if it was obvious to me, I just think that there was. They must have either thought, we can make these guys sort of like come in and fall in line with our philosophy of high feel, low touch time, just high processing. Kaminga was very, very raw in terms of his processing of basketball, and Wiseman was too. And I just, I think that that, that is the thing that we can point to. And, you know, the fact that they delayed it and they, you know, they finally owned up and took a really. Was a chance taking Jimmy Butler. I think it was going to pay off, but I think you can trace it all back to that moment. That was the thing that killed the two timeline thing in a way that it didn't for the spurs, in a way that it didn't for the other teams that were in this situation, in my opinion.

C (45:12)

Well, it didn't. But in a different way it did. Like, almost every dynasty ends the same way. And it's with a team that has produced a ton of magic thinking that they can pull one more rabbit out of the hat to save them. And sometimes that looks like drafting a player who's outside of your normal skill set and personality type and zone. Sometimes it's signing that guy as a free agent, sometimes it's believing that the guy on your bench who you've been waiting on will suddenly develop into the thing you need him to be at the exact right time. It's almost hard to blame Golden State for thinking they could do that, because they did it in so many different ways over the years. Like they made. They made all that magic happen because Steph is that kind of superstar and because the core that they had built and the defense they had built was formidable enough to help basically anyone. They could throw it. Like, they turned Javale McGee into a champion, you know, like. Like, why would you turn James Wiseman into a player?

B (46:05)

Hold on. No, no, wait. Where do you think the magic's happening? Because the core of what was working with that was great scouting. It was the Meyer Schlink. It was the.

C (46:13)

Oh, they had a great.

B (46:14)

They had the core of an idea. They. They got lucky with Draymond, but they scouted Clay and Clay was great. I think.

A (46:19)

Think.

B (46:20)

I don't. All the other guys are like, supplementary. I think that the scouting of the core things that were going to propel it forward is. Yeah, that was. That was a crazy assumption, in my opinion.

C (46:28)

I'm not saying they got lucky. I'm saying once you put Steph Curry and Klay Thompson and Draymond Green and Andre Iguodala on a court together, all of a sudden you start thinking, rightly and understandably so we could just put anybody with these guys maybe, and they'll. And they'll be able to figure it out. They'll be able to get. Get a Jonathan Kaminga in the right frame of mind to be an effect, like an effective member of this group. And it just never really panned out. Like, I. I think the. The original sin for them is that what they had was so effective, it inspired so much belief that ultimately they ended up getting, like, a little bit over their skis in terms of the kinds of players they were targeting.

A (47:06)

Yeah, drafting Wiseman over Lamello Ball, a player they seem to like. Just like that. That's the trade off right there where it seemed like they fetishized the potential dimension that they never had. But to glom on to what they had. Wiseman didn't work for a lot of reasons. But just like that, even that idea that we could bring in these, like, raw, visceral athletes like a Kaminga and just apply him to our contacts just never worked. And you saw that lean back to what they were when they drafted guys like Pajemski and. And others who are a little bit more of a fit there. But you're. I think to Kyle's overall point, there is talent here. So the young core Overall. Wiseman at 2 was a. Was a huge bust. Coming at 7, though I think there's still perhaps something there. I don't think the book is closed there. We'll see. Pool at 28 was a great poll. What you think about pool. Like, he's still an NBA player. He's still making a lot of money in this league. Moody at 14, fine. 14th pick. Pajem ski at 19 is actually not terrible. So there's talent here. It's just like they kind of vacillated in between about the approach. And I. I don't think that helped. And I think it has to speak to, like, Kerr's own rearing of some of these guys and how staunch and, like, kind of dug in he was at a certain point about making sure that those guys played the way that he wanted them to play.

B (48:23)

Yeah, I. I think the mistake that they made wasn't necessarily the belief that those guys could jump in and jump on to something that had a core foundation, like the Iggy Clay, you know, Draymond Steph thing. The mistake was to assume that once those guys, it's sort of like the. The Ninja Turtles Splinter meme, where you see what, you know, splinters. Splinter's young or old, has the. The youngins, and then when it flip flops that they're going to be ready. I think the mistake that they made was assuming that once the core started to age out of being the central thing about what works, that those guys would evolve into the thing that could be the core, the of the new thing. I think that was the mistake. I personally never, ever understood it, but they did. And, you know, whatever. Here we are.

A (49:04)

I will say, as I was looking back on some of these teams, the 20, 22, 23 warriors, so in addition to, like, a lot of these young guys we're talking about, and a lot of the core figures from the 22 title team had Dante DiVincenzo on a one plus one make. Never going to keep him because he outplayed what he got and he got a bigger deal for the Knicks.

C (49:23)

But credit is Curry with basically, like, changing his career as a shooter, like, completely revolutionized the way he thought about shooting and his actual motion.

A (49:30)

I believe they definitely could use him. Ty Jerome and Ryan Rollins on kind of make good contracts.

C (49:36)

Kind of crazy.

A (49:38)

Yeah, I mean, we're gonna talk about the Cavs in a little bit. Like, just having Ty Jerome matters a lot. And like, if they just had a lot of these guys in the back as opposed to like, perhaps some of these other guys, things could be different.

C (49:48)

Yeah, I think those. Those are the tough ones, right? The birds in the hand who just wrong. Like wrong place, wrong time, whatever it was for. For those kinds of players. But you would think Like, Golden State would have room for a guy like Ryan Rollins. Right. That they would have room, obviously, for, like, Dante fit in what they were trying to run and what they were trying to play. It was more just like a practice, practical consideration. They couldn't keep him. They just needed a couple of those sorts of transactions to hit in a way that they didn't. But the culture of the Jimmy Butler stuff is. Even if they had, would it have changed all that much? Like, if this injury still happened at this time, would this team be any. Like, would their fate look any meaningfully different?

A (50:24)

Or if Andrew Wiggins just didn't disappear after having one of the greatest runs in the playoffs?

C (50:30)

Didn't entirely disappear. He just became, like, a muted contributor.

A (50:34)

You know, he literally disappeared.

C (50:36)

Well, okay, okay, sorry.

B (50:36)

He did literally. There was a pretty literally disappear.

C (50:39)

He did literally disappear. Then he came back and was just like, a guy.

A (50:43)

He's just fine. It's just the weirdest career.

B (50:46)

One of the strangest careers, dude. Like, God, to go from where he started, where people were like, is this the next, like, Scottie Pippen? Whatever. And then, you know, it's like, maybe not. And then spike up with the Warriors.

C (50:57)

Yeah.

A (50:58)

All right, let's take one more break, and when we come back, we'll talk about his former team. All right. The Cleveland Cavaliers.

C (51:04)

Justin, I just want to say, calling the Cavaliers Andrew Wiggins's former team. It's a beautiful bit of business. You just did inspired work.

A (51:13)

Yeah, I. I identify him as a cav. That's what he's gonna go into. The. Not the whole.

B (51:18)

He's going in. Yeah.

A (51:19)

Of just the hall of Remembering Some Guys. He was a cab.

C (51:23)

I mean, the hall of Remembering some guys for the Cavaliers, in particular, the Sasha Pavloviches, you know, they just. I feel like so many random guys rolled through the LeBron era that are worthy of remembrance.

A (51:36)

Oh, yeah. The LeBron specific wing of Remembering Some Guys is just like, this is historic because he always got, like, a guy in his eighth year who had had a moment elsewhere, but you knew him from that other thing. But then he played 10 minutes, and.

C (51:50)

Wiggins is kind of a part of it. If. If not for actually playing with LeBron, then functionally getting traded by LeBron in a sports Illustrated first person article. So, you know, crazy things happen.

A (52:01)

Happen.

B (52:01)

There's some fan out there. I was. You know, one of the coveted memorabilia finds of all time is the Rasheed Wallace Atlanta Hawks jersey. And there's, like three or four of them that exist. There's somebody out there that thought Wiggins was going and had like a jersey made that exists out there, I'm sure. So that. I'm sure that's a. We need to do an ebay dive after that to see or just mail me one. I'll wear it on the next pod.

C (52:22)

Yeah. If you, if you know the whereabouts of an Andrew Wiggins Cavs jersey, email us at Ringer group chat@gmail.com. like we would love to, if nothing else, just kind of salute somebody.

B (52:32)

Somebody was fired up about that Kansas tape and was like, here we go. The Andrew Wiggins era.

C (52:37)

Yeah.

A (52:37)

I wonder if he even has like his actual number if it's just that, like number one because that's what he held up on the dais.

C (52:43)

Very possible.

A (52:45)

But the current Cavs, it seemed like things were turning at the very least 9 and 4 earn. Excuse me, 9 and 6 over the past 15 games got absolutely walloped by the Thunder. Which, you know, it happens to a team. Yeah, yeah. I, I just. Garland's back out again. I just, I, I find it hard to, to conjure up hope that we're going to get the full like, everybody's back and we're back in business, baby. Sort of thing. That would at the very least always existed in the back of your mind because they've had so many injuries thus far and perhaps still exists in the back of the front office's mind because some of the numbers with the core four, Rob, are still very good. It's just like they never play together. And on top of that, like trying to jerry rig a bench around this has been very difficult.

C (53:32)

I've been a little heartened by their play lately outside of course, getting whomped by the Thunder. But some of it's like, look, their defense isn't where you want it to be and hasn't really been all season, if we're being honest about it. Offensively, for most of the year they've been a three point engine team that was not really able to hit threes because most nights, as you alluded to jv, they've been missing like several of their best shooters at any given point in time. Like it's not just Garland in and out of the lineup. So many guys on this supporting cast have missed like 10 plus games. And so then all of a sudden the shots that you would want to be going to Sam Merrill are going to DeAndre Hunter and the returns on those things are just dramatically different. And so the more that they were getting guys into the mix and they were starting to Hit threes a little more again, it felt like it just kind of was lifting their offense and all the pieces were falling into place in a way that made sense. It's just so tough with all the stuff that's been happening with Garland, and he's been playing better, at least when he's been on the floor, which is a huge shift for them. But they just need bodies like, they just need, like, Max Stru, who has not played all year. They need Garland to be a steady, reliable part of the rotation, and he picks up injuries kind of seemingly all the time at this point. I don't know who they are without all of their component parts at the same time. I don't know that they're going to be in a position to do something radical or dramatic because of that evidence you suggested, which a lot of it says maybe you're close enough, right? Like, maybe in this Eastern Conference, it's not so crazy to think that you're completely outside of any race of any meaning.

B (55:03)

Yeah, I think it's. It's a combination of things. Like you're saying the availability that we haven't quite, you know, it hasn't totally come to fruition, our idea of these guys, you know, consistently playing together because of the injury concerns. When I watch them, I see a sort of a convergence of a few factors of they've whiffed on some of their bigger, you know, ambitious moves to bolster the supporting cast like you were talking about with Hunter with. You know, on paper, we all were like, maybe a little naive to think that Lonzo Ball would be ready to go or any modicum of. Of his former self. He's one of the least efficient shooters in the league. And when you have a guy with his skill set, if they're no threat to score, you just kind of get this old guy and pickup who's like, I could pass it. You know, it's like. It's just not. But no one respects you, you know, that kind of a thing. Not that I have personal experience with that at all, but no, I just that that really hurts. And then the combination of the two small guard thing, that's a whole other conversation. Evan Mobley's challenges offensively, him and Mo, him and Jared Allen fitting together. But the other thing that I've noticed is really, really high turnover percentages among the guys who were also expected to take some of the weight off of Donovan Mitchell. So you get. Either we get Hercules, Donovan Mitchell, who's making tough shots, doing incredible things, or we get Jalen Tyson, we get Craig Porter, we get, you know, we get DeAndre Hunter. Just not great. Point five. You know, we're talking about the 0.5 things. Just guys who aren't great.

C (56:23)

Sure.

B (56:24)

Off the bounds kind of decision makers. And that really kills your synergy in your offense. I think.

C (56:28)

I think that's all fair, but also, I just literally don't know where this team would be without Jaylen Tyson this season. Like, he's. He's one of the only role players who has been consistently there and available and good, and those are in such short supply right now for Cleveland.

B (56:42)

Well, you're talking about the bottom dropping out. I'm talking. Yes, that's true, but I'm just saying that it's all down near the bottom of it.

A (56:48)

Yeah. Yeah. So Jaylen Tyson, 47% from 3. His PER, 36, 17.8 points, 7 rebounds a game. I've seen a lot of comps to Josh Hart, and I guess I can see it to a certain extent because he is a rebounding guard. Hart, probably one of the best in modern basketball at doing that. But the fact that he has the shot to go along with it is like something that Hart has dreamed of his entire career. Kyle, what are you seeing from him and maybe what you saw from him going into the league overall? Like, did you expect something like this? Is heart like a good comp? Are you seeing somebody else?

B (57:25)

I don't know if I have a good comp, but I mean, he had a lot of fans coming into that draft and coming to the league and then people who have kind of steadfastly believed in him. So, I mean, I'm not surprised that he's been productive. I just don't know that he would probably be better served if some of these other gambles are just, you know, things, these moves that they've made, like the lonzo, like the Andre Hunter. I just think if the overall consistency and stasis of this team is where it should be, I don't know that he would be burdened to do some of those things. Like. So, yeah, I mean, think I. I like Tyson. I just think that he's. He's doing all that he can do. I don't. He's not the source of, like you were saying, Rob. I don't think that he's the guy that you single out and criticize because it's not his fault. It's. It's a combination of all those other things that we mentioned before.

C (58:10)

Yeah. And him being put into this role, it's A classic case of like, okay, if your seventh guy now has to be your fifth guy, what does that mean for your new seventh guy? And just the Cavs depth chart hasn't really been able to accommodate all of that, which with everyone missing time with Jared Allen in and out with Darius Garland in and out with again like up and down, the supporting cast, everybody missing games and, and like the compounding interest on those sorts of things. It. I just feel like it's really taken a toll on everybody on Donovan Mitchell. Clearly. I, I hope that there's still room for them to be good enough. And I think, look, the Cavs invite the bigger question, which is the east feels a little open with all due respect to the Pistons, who are great but also haven't won a playoff series yet, so we kind of need to see them become the playoff titan before we believe it implicitly. And if the east is open, where is the line, like where is the line of team that believes that they are good enough to make some kind of noise? And I think the Cavs can fairly argue they are above that line. Does that mean that they should really shake things up at the deadline to make yet another dramatic move to try to supplement this supporting cast? I just don't really see that in them. I see this feels like a pretty risk averse moment where they're just going to try to get everybody in one piece and get into the postseason and hope for the best. Maybe like add one more bench guy could help this group in some way. But I, I get why if they do operate this way, they would think why not us? If, if the Magic are talking themselves into being a competitive playoff team, why wouldn't the Cavs be in a similar competitive regard?

A (59:40)

Yeah, I think you guys are circling kind of the main frustration with the Cavs overall. It's not just the injuries, it's just the fact injuries and the fact that they don't have their full complement of guys seems to affect them so greatly. When we've been sold on the strength of like the core form, they're spending so much money on some of these guys where it's like, oh, all of a sudden their eighth man isn't there. We're in complete disarray. It reminds me a lot of like the old school warriors where it's like we have seven hall of Famers all playing at the peak of their powers, but if we just don't have 10 minutes of Namanja be elita, we're completely off because it's all about like the Depth and like all the flow and everything like that. It's like, yeah, it's, it's. It's troublesome that they don't have Streuss or Merrell or some of these other shooters out there, but it's just like the fact that they've stumbled into Tyson is the type of thing that, like, teams just don't get right. Like, the fact that they unearthed that in the midst of all this is kind of a boon, but we're saying that's still not enough because they don't have the depth. I get it on. On, like, in terms of functionally that, like, they need that sort of stuff in order to work. But I think it speaks to the overall difficulties in the construction of the team one and two. Just sort of the individual disappointments, not only with Garland and his, like, his fit and just like just being iffy and hurt all the time, but also Evan Mobley, I think we should talk about, is just taking a step back offensively, which is super disappointing considering the long battle we've had with him starting and stopping this kind of trajectory that everyone's been hoping he's been on. I just watch them sometimes, and I just ultimately default to the fact that if you're going to be that big, big, and not only is he just, like, big in terms of, like, stature, but, like, he got bigger this offseason. He was like, number one on the muscle watch list. It's just like a real big. For what?

B (61:20)

Sort of behind Rob on this pod.

C (61:22)

Okay, that's right.

A (61:24)

Like, he was definitely pumping while watching some games. And then beyond that, because he seems to have the physicality that everyone expected him to eventually get to. And, like, maybe that would turn the page for him. It's a real, like, what are you using it for? When it seems like, like smaller wings. He doesn't just, like, attack with aggression. The same way that I look at Tyson, like, that guy's all balls to the walls. It's just like, if he had that spirit in Mobley, that alone would make a. A lot of difference for him offensively. Yeah.

C (61:51)

There's just not a balls to the wall team other than Donovan Mitchell, who clearly has that in him and can go all out.

B (61:57)

It's crazy. Cause they should be. If you look at this on paper, like, that's what they should be. This team is just like, they dizzy you with their. With their. With their speed, their team speed. Because that's, That's. Am I wrong? I mean, I don't know. I'm looking at on paper?

C (62:07)

Well, they're torn between being a teen that should be able to diz you with their collective speed and one that also kind of wants to play big sometimes and one that also wants. It's like I. It does feel like they're trying to be a few too many things at once in. In spots and they don't have all of their healthy bodies to even attempt to be all those things at once. And so they've been forced into this very makeshift place of just like, okay, whatever ideals we had for like the flexibility to play all these different ways are kind of out the window. What is the improvised version of the best roster we can throw out there? And that team is just kind of like, okay. And until that changes with getting more bodies in the mix, with getting more active players, I just don't see any reason to think that they're going to be anything else. But that to me, primes them to be one of these teams that sees their big deadline addition to just be like getting everybody back.

A (62:58)

It's really hard to carve out an identity for this team, which is tough because they brought practically everybody back, including Hunter, who they made the big swing for last year. I typically find that identities are the type of thing that matter more in the regular season just to trudge through and just like, I don't know, something to stabilize you through the. The gauntlet of an 82 game season. The problem is, waiting in the playoffs isn't so much like a different situation where you would hope that like they would just have so much talent that if it's just healthy enough, they could just steamroll teams for that. Maybe the east is different this year and that opening that Rob alluded to would provide them a little bit more of a margin that they've had in the past. There's not the Pacers just waiting there to just blitz the hell out of them. On the other hand, the playoffs have been the biggest concern. We came into this season saying we won't know anything about this team until the playoffs. We're not even at that point. We're already in the existential crisis phase. So I'm worried. I don't think teams just like, like click into place like right before the playoffs and just automatically make the finals. I just, I just don't know what it is. It's really hard to put your finger on ultimately.

C (64:00)

Yeah, but that's why it's like there's this low simmering panic that's happening with the Cavs seemingly at all times. And it's it's not the kind of panic that jolts you up in the night and makes you make dramatic changes to your life. It's just that. That voice in the back of your head that's like, what if we're not good enough? What.

B (64:15)

What if.

C (64:15)

What if this is all there is? You know? And I think it's a. It's a tough realization for a team that has been hoping and praying that this core four, with enough help, would be able to figure it out. Maybe they won't even get that chance. Maybe every cav season is doomed to end in like, this guy has an injury is out. This guy has an injury that's nagging and is not fully himself. The shooters aren't hitting in the way that we need them to, and it's just going to always sort of fizzle. And again, it's just like a bummer of a way for a team construction to peter out. But it does kind of feel like we're headed that direction again.

B (64:47)

Rob, when was the last time you got up in the middle of the night and splashed some cold water on your face and you're just like, I'm not who I want to be? That sounded really, really vivid and personal to you. I don't know. I'm just guessing.

C (64:56)

Kyle. Every night of my life. I don't know what to tell you. We're just.

B (64:59)

Why bother with I'm on too many crisis.

C (65:02)

Yeah. If you just keep going through the existential crisis, you'll find that over time, it will become more comfortable to you.

A (65:08)

I was gonna guess it was the size of the sign you had back there. You're like, sure, I don't need a 3XL. I need a 7XL.

C (65:15)

Well, I saw yours and I was like, I simply can't have Justin with a bigger sign than me.

B (65:19)

I gotta come correct Sign envy is all.

A (65:23)

Hell, I was. I. I saw it on the video and I was like, wow, you could barely even make out what that is.

B (65:27)

It kind of looks like a vinyl. I was like, did you?

C (65:29)

Yeah.

B (65:30)

Did you. Did you put. Make a group Chad final?

C (65:32)

Incredible.

B (65:33)

Put one of the pods on there.

A (65:35)

Yeah. All right. Why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Isaiah Blakely back on production. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Sunday as per usual. Talk to you then. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdg.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-87-7-8, HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.