Pistons-Hornets Brawl, the NBA’s Loser Mentality, and Daryl Morey's Comments on Jared McCain | Real Ones

Summary

The Ringer NBA Show (Real Ones) — February 10, 2026

Episode: Pistons-Hornets Brawl, the NBA’s Loser Mentality, and Daryl Morey's Comments on Jared McCain

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

In this episode, hosts Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard Beck dive deep into a chaotic brawl between the Pistons and Hornets, dissect the “loser mentality” and tanking culture gripping the NBA, and react to controversial comments made by Daryl Morey about Jared McCain. The Real Ones also answer mailbag questions about NBA “what-if” careers derailed by injuries, and the making of a potential team of the 2020s.

The episode is passionate, fun, and irreverent—packed with personal anecdotes, NBA history, and honest critiques about the league’s direction.

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1. THE PISTONS-HORNETS BRAWL (02:41–21:15)

Key Discussion Points

• Description of the Incident (03:02–07:00):
  The fight involved Detroit’s Jalen Duren and Charlotte’s Moussa Diabate, an escalating confrontation with shoving and “fake” punches, leading to Miles Bridges and Isaiah Stewart entering the fray.

• Intensity & Old School Comparison:

  • “Not quite a brouhaha like in Raj’s day, but a brouhaha nonetheless.” – Logan (03:02)
  • Raja notes this was unusually intense for the modern NBA, with genuine altercations and bench players entering the court.

• Security and Rule Enforcement (07:00–09:34):
  Howard explains how league rules and security usually prevent these fights from escalating:
  “Teams these days do a really great job between having… a mass security contingent. Right. They’ve got people, an apparatus… but you don’t leave the bench. Cardinal rule, Isaiah Stewart violating it spectacularly.” (06:00)

• Notable/Funny Moments (09:38–12:24):

  • The Hornets' announcer’s comedic play-by-play, openly speculating suspension lengths live.
  • Isaiah Stewart’s caught-on-camera line:
    “You’re not expecting me to stay on the bench? What the fuck was I drafted to Detroit for?” – Isaiah Stewart via Nick Carboni (11:23)
  • Jared Jack acting as “a human shield” to stop Diabate: “There are a few funny moments in that way. But like, God bless Jared Jack.” – Logan

• On the Role of the Enforcer & Team Culture:
  Raja:
  “It’s my job to protect any of these dudes on my team. And that goes a long way… Not just in the locker room, but… as it projects to other teams coming into your building thinking that they can push you around...” (12:24)

  Howard:
  “This is what bonds a team together sometimes… But too many people doing that… you’re not all peacemakers now, you’re, you’re escalators, right?” (13:21)

• Discussion of Suspensions (18:45–21:15):

  • Consensus: Isaiah Stewart likely to get the highest penalty for leaving the bench, with speculation ranging from 5 to 10 games.
  • Adam Silver’s tenure noted as more lenient than David Stern’s era.
  • Each repeated re-engagement in the fracas (“every time you break a tackle and re engage could be a game” – Raja) adds to the likely suspension length.

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2. THE NBA’s “LOSER MENTALITY”: TANKING AND ITS EFFECTS (23:20–57:49)

Key Discussion Points

• Current Season Tanking Scenarios (23:20–27:48):

  • Jazz bench Jaren Jackson Jr., Markkanen, and Nurkic in the 4th while leading—a blatant example of “tanking.”
  • Wizards, Nets, and others also starting to shut down players.
  • “Whenever I… go into a season, I can count at least 10 teams that don’t even want to win.” – Logan (24:03)

• Evolution of Tanking Culture (25:10–27:48):

  • Howard: “This is the tanking era… the last 10, 12, 13 years, ever since Sam Hinkie’s process in Philly.”
  • Despite the league’s efforts (flattened lottery odds, play-in), tanking persists due to the incentive structure and a golden draft class.

• Structural Incentives and Hypocrisy (30:13–33:21):

  • Raja: “It’s dangerous… asking someone to not be competitive for stretches of time. And then… want them to be all in.”
  • Playing to lose damages player mentality and is hard to just ‘turn on’ later.

• Impact on Players & Coaches:

  • The psychological toll on players forced to sit when winning:

    • Raja: “If you ain’t out there to win a game, what the fuck are you doing on a court or a field?”

  • Will Hardy’s predicament (“How does that same guy look at a team three years from now and say, all right, fellas, need you guys to buy into winning…?” – Raja, 40:53)

• Reactions to Tanking (Logan & Raja’s Rants):

  • Logan: “Losing is good? What?” (35:21)
  • Raja: “You can’t be the league that does that and then… hold it against a talented college kid because he’s choosing to execute that. He’s following your model.” (44:20)

• Is Tanking Justified by Roster-Building Logic? (Howard, 45:00–47:15):

  • A reverse-order draft inherently rewards losing.
  • “If you’re not a destination team… then tanking in the draft is, is the way.”

• Broader Damage to NBA's Product & Culture:

  • Young fans could turn to other sports: “They’re just going to be like, oh, this is weak. Like the player that I want to see… they’re not coming because they’re sitting on the bench.” – Logan (47:15)
  • “As a league, you are… setting a poor example in that. And it has trickled down.” – Raja, re: influence on youth/high school basketball (48:18)

• Suggested Remedies (38:15–39:26):

  • Logan proposes escalating penalties for repeat tanking beyond fines—e.g., loss of second-round picks.
  • Raja notes it is “ridiculous” to escalate punishments for teams who spend to win, but not those who intentionally lose.

• Why the League Might Not Change (Howard, 56:31):

  • The NBA’s media rights deals and revenue growth have insulated it from the consequences of tanking—for now.

Memorable Quotes

• “It’s just a complete loser mentality, man.” – Logan (33:21)
• “Maybe some people can, but it’s a dangerous thing to play with that, asking someone to not be competitive for stretches of time.” – Raja (31:08)
• “We have gotten the human element out of this league.” – Logan (55:34)

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3. DARYL MOREY’S COMMENTS ON JARED MCCAIN (51:07–55:34)

• Context: Daryl Morey, in discussing a recent trade, remarked, “we sold high on McCain,” reducing the player’s value to a commodity in public.
• Hosts’ Reaction:
  • Logan: “That was such a whack thing to say… he should be ashamed of himself, bro.” (51:38)
  • Raja: “It was whack… and it speaks to the analytical era that we’re in and how we look at these players as numbers and… we’ve gotten the human element [out].” (52:25)
• Front Office Mentality vs. Player Reality:
  • Raja recalls experiences in Cleveland’s front office where “we’re just assigning Howard Beck as a player that Raja knows 1C… It was really sterile, if you will.” (54:57)

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4. MAILBAG: INJURY “WHAT-IFs” & TEAMS OF THE DECADE (58:21–68:23)

NBA Injury Hall of Fame (59:46–63:20)

• Question: Name NBA players whose careers would have reached “all-time great” status but were derailed by injury.
• Hosts’ Picks:
  • Derrick Rose, Grant Hill, Brandon Roy, Penny Hardaway (consensus)
  • Others mentioned: Bill Walton, Tracy McGrady (debated), Michael Redd, Greg Oden, Yao Ming, Sean Livingston, Gilbert Arenas, Antonio McDyess
• Debate: Whether certain stars (e.g., T-Mac, Larry Bird) truly fit the “derailed” criteria.

Team of the Decade? (63:20–68:23)

• Question: Will the 2020s produce a clear “team of the decade”?
• Context: No repeat champions so far; lots of parity.
• Howard’s Analysis:
  • Points to 1970s parity as precedent.
  • Believes this parity is by the NBA’s design, citing rules (apron, cap) meant to prevent dynasties.
  • Thunder and Celtics closest to carving out dominance, but unpredictable events could stop any would-be dynasty.
  • “There’s a good chance we do exit the 2020s without a team of the decade, and it would be the first time since the 70s. But this is what the league wants. They engineered it this way.” (67:49)
• Raja: Agrees—the era of one-team dominance may be over by design.

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5. NOTABLE QUOTES & MEMORABLE MOMENTS

• On Stewart’s "enforcer" mentality:
  “You told me I could have a team with an enforcer… or a team that didn’t have that. Give me the team with it.” – Raja Bell (15:17)
• On league tanking approval:
  “You don’t get to be the fan that accepts that and then… be incensed when your star sits on ticket night.” – Raja (50:06)
• On media rights cushioning criticism:
  “The league’s making more money than it’s ever made before… And I would just say on some level it insulates them. Not in a healthy way.” – Howard Beck (56:31)

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6. PODCAST TONE & STYLE

• Tone: Candid, opinionated, irreverent, with sharp criticism for league hypocrisy and systems.
• Language: Often informal, conversational, peppered with humor, sarcasm, and occasional strong language.

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7. TIMESTAMPS FOR MAIN SEGMENTS

• 02:41 — Pistons-Hornets brawl breakdown, security, team culture
• 09:38 — Hilarious and memorable brawl moments
• 12:24 — The role and necessity of NBA “enforcers”
• 18:45 — Predictions on suspensions and penalties
• 23:20 — Tanking in the NBA and its widespread impact
• 30:13 — The psychological and career impact of tanking
• 33:01 — Rants on the NBA’s loser mentality
• 35:47 — Justifications for tanking & the NBA’s incentive structure
• 38:15 — Can the NBA fix tanking? Penalty proposals
• 47:15 — The trickle-down effect of tanking on sports culture/youth
• 51:07 — Daryl Morey’s McCain comment, player commodification
• 58:21 — Mailbag: NBA’s “injury what-ifs”
• 63:20 — Mailbag: Is a “team of the decade” still possible?
• 68:23 — Show wrap-up and upcoming content notes

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8. FINAL REMARKS

• Episodes will continue around All-Star Weekend, with live content from LA, including Logan and Howard judging the NBA G League Dunk Competition.
• The overall theme is a clear-eyed critique of how the NBA is evolving—sometimes for the better, sometimes not—and how that affects players, coaches, and fans alike.

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Summary by The Ringer Podcast Summarizer Bot | February 2026

Transcript

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[Logan Murdoch]

What's Poppin Real Ones Logan Murdoch here. Howard Beck and Raja Bell in a bit. Great show for you guys. Today we got into the world star moment that happened in Charlotte between the Pistons and the Hornets. We get into tanking and how that is kind of tanking the league at this point. And what are the remedies to solve? Just the blatant losing and the losing mentality that we find ourselves having as a league and in the NBA. And then we get to your mailbag questions which are really fun. Before we get to the episode though, I want to make a quick announcement that me and Howard Beck are going to be judging the NBA G League Dunk competition on Saturday. You can catch that on the NBA app and we're going to have a blast with it. There are going to be other judges that are going to be announced soon, but me and Howard are going to be doing it and I'm very, very excited about that. Also, another bit of housekeeping. We're going to have two more episodes dropping this week for Real Ones, A two parter that we're going to roll out on Thursday and Friday and then we're going to have one next week so we're be on the lookout for that. Got a lot of content going for you guys as we get into All Star Weekend. So excited to see you guys very, very soon. All right, tap in Chris. Play the theme music. What's poppin' Real Ones? Logan Murdoch here, Rajabel there. Howard Beck is between two Ferns. This is Real Ones.

[Howard Beck]

It's just one fern and I don't think it's a fern. It looks like an Olive tree, but like a fake olive tree. I don't even know what an olive tree looks like, but there's little things on here that look like olives on the thing. Tree next to me.

[Logan Murdoch]

You got the phone bank? You have the phone bank in LA right now.

[Howard Beck]

Spotify hq.

[Logan Murdoch]

Let's get it.

[Howard Beck]

Love it here.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, man, it's gonna be fun. I will be joining you there in just a few hours, but before that we are here to talk about fighting and tanking. I want to talk about fighting first. Last night we had a bit of a bruhaha. Not quite a brouhaha like in Raj's day, but a brouhaha nonetheless where Jalen Duran and Moussa Diabody had some back and forth. Diabadi got mushed in the face, then did the thing where he tried to rush Durin and like fake throw a punch but didn't actually throw any types of anything. And then Miles Bridges gets into the mix. He says some words, tries to get in on the action. It gets de escalated. And then Miles Bridges sees Jalen Duran on the other side of the court, tries to fight him again. And then out of nowhere, but not really out of nowhere because we knew it was coming, Isaiah Stewart comes off the bench and tries to just get into the fight, get into the mix. And we had our first world star moment of the season. Guys, thoughts? What do we think about the fight in the brouhaha in Charlotte, by the way? Hornets 9 game winning streak snapped.

[Raja Bell]

I guess I'll go. I mean that was a pretty significant as far as NBA fights go fight. There were from what I could count, multiple punches thrown, multiple like flare ups of the situation. You had guys coming in off the bench, not just in the capacity that like Boris Diao and Amari Stoudemire did when they fucking suspended him. And then we lose it. Stop.

[Howard Beck]

Raj is not still better.

[Logan Murdoch]

I didn't even bring it up. I didn't bring that up. I digress.

[Raja Bell]

Not even in that capacity, but like coming off of the bench to further, you know, instigate and, and escalate the situation in terms of, in terms of NBA fights. A. I thought it was a. There were some punches thrown, like, I don't know how many were connecting. I was trying to like get better angles. I couldn't really see that. Diabate was like, he was out of his mind. You know, they, they wrestled him to like a standstill multiple times and he broke loose. Still trying to chase like was pretty entertaining. And I think there's going to be a Lot of meat on the bone there for, for the NBA, you know, whatever their, whatever their board is now that decides and doles out fines and, and, and punishments in terms of suspensions, there's going to be a lot to parse through for them.

[Logan Murdoch]

Jups. Is there? Yeah, Jups.

[Raja Bell]

Oh, I didn't know. Okay, Jups, that's what's up.

[Howard Beck]

It's the new Joe Dumars.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, there we go.

[Logan Murdoch]

He's the new Jackson. Who was your favorite. What was your favorite moment of this? Howard, what was your favorite moment of the. Of the crash out of the fight?

[Howard Beck]

My favorite moment was so you guys, as you know, I'm here in LA early for All Star Week because I'm working with Sports Business Classroom. And it was Bobby Marks, who's leading Sports Business Classroom, who I just see staring at his phone when we're at this reception last night. And he's like, oh, my God, you see this? Pistons fight. I'm like, what? Pistons fight. So, like, Bobby's giving me the play by play, then like I'm watching it all on, on his phone. And we're both just like, marveling at this because we've both been around long enough to have seen the NBA go from a time when fights back in Raj's day were a lot more significant and out of control to the current era where we just don't see stuff like this very often anym, if at all. And immediately, of course, your mind's going to, you know, Isaiah wasn't even in the game, Right. Isaiah Stewart was not in the game. So that's even worse. Right. Because we have rules about leaving the bench, and those rules are there for a reason, as Raja knows personally. So he not only left the bench, but he was like one of the biggest offenders in this whole thing. So there's, there's those layers of it. Teams these days do a really great job between having. It used to be like you had a security guy. Now they've got like a, a mass security contingent. Right. They've got people, an apparatus.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yep.

[Howard Beck]

And between all the security guys and all the assistant coaches and the trainer and the equipment manager and the assistant traveling secretary, there's enough people to wrangle everyone before it gets out of control. And guys have learned over time because they saw Boris D. Back in the day or they saw, you know, whatever the Knicks and Charlie Warden, whatever back in the day, they know you don't leave the bench. Cardinal rule, Isaiah Stewart violating it very spectacularly last night. But in general, be between guys, not Leaving the bench and the whole security apparatus, wrangling everybody else. Guys get separated pretty quickly most of the time these days. You don't. You just don't see this. You don't see something where it looks like, oh, this looks out of control. This is chaos. That was chaos. And it spilled. You don't want to see it spill into the stands. And it looked like, like, I haven't seen a good replay of this part of it. Maybe you guys have. Like, did any fans get crushed in all this? Because it looked like it did spill into the front row a bit. And that's another one that the league is always on alert for. You do not put the fans in harm's way. So there are a lot of components here for James Jones and Adam Silver and everybody else at league headquarters to sort out. They're going to have an awfully busy today today on a day that they are all either already here in LA or traveling for All Star. So between this and a thousand other things going on toug week for the league office.

[Raja Bell]

Just a little wrinkle. Just a little wrinkle. I would have been fascinated had Isaiah Stewart not come out and, and, and been a maniac about that, how James would have handled that. Because I. James was on that team with a little bit of perspective in that situation, having had it happen to him and a team he was on. Like, if Isaiah Stewart or anyone else for that matter, who might have been on the court, I couldn't see the wide angle. I didn't see who might have just, you know, cross that line. I would have been interested to see how James handled that. But as it was, I mean, he did not just wander onto the court spectating. He was. And let me just say, I just. Yeah, he charged. And let me just say this. Those teams that are in place with security, this just tells you where most NBA scuffles are in terms of like a scale of 1 to 10 on how angry and how much people want to get down. It doesn't matter how much of a team that you have in place. If someone really wants to be about that action and get to that fight. You see what happened last night. It's very, very difficult, no matter who you have out there, to wrangle an incensed human being that's that size, like you bait, it's virtually impossible, but don't want to get at it.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, well, not even just that, but even Diabate.

[Raja Bell]

Even Diabate.

[Logan Murdoch]

That's what I was going to say.

[Raja Bell]

They couldn't hold him, bro.

[Logan Murdoch]

Did you see the look on Jared Jack's face when Diabate came running towards Duran the second time around. Jared Jack got in front of him and was like, oh, there are, like, there are a few funny moments in that way. But, like, God bless Jared Jack who, like, was just like a human shield, but he was like, what the fuck, man? Come on, please do. Fortunately, Diabate just. I think he got wrangled again, and they had like five dudes on him on the baseline. Like, you aren't going anywhere. There was like a human shield after he got around Jared Jack. Now that we got the serious part, can I just, like, just talk about some of the hilarious moments that happened throughout this thing? Just, like, legitimately, like, funny now that we're got the serious stuff. Number one that I thought was funny was the way the Hornets announcer throughout the whole time was like.

[Raja Bell]

Was doing.

[Logan Murdoch]

A play by play of the suspensions that Isaiah Stewart was about to get, because it was like, oh, he's not going to All Star. Oh, wait, he's. Wait, he's.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

He's.

[Logan Murdoch]

He's definitely not going to play the game after All Star. He's definitely. Oh, he's going to be gone for a long time. Right?

[Raja Bell]

And at the same time saying, Miles Bridges got some good punches at the same.

[Logan Murdoch]

Exactly at the same who. Miles Bridges who escalated this spike to where it was. And then my second favorite moment was somebody caught. This is via Nick Carboni. I think he was the one from one of the local news stations that got the camera on Isaiah Stewart in the bowels of the Charlotte Arena. And Isaiah Stewart is caught saying, you're not expecting me to say it. Stay on the bench. What the fuck was I drafted Detroit for? Incredible.

[Howard Beck]

I know we're not supposed to glorify violence and we're supposed to frown and all this stuff, but that's. That's legitimate.

[Logan Murdoch]

I'm gonna listen. I get he broke the rules and he's gonna be suspended for a minute, but you can make the case. Isaiah Stewart was defending his teammate, right? Like, he saw that Miles Bridges was out here trying to fight during. At the complete other side of the court and was like, yo, you're not gonna do this. And that is his role, right? No matter what you guys like what we think about him as a player and stuff. People in that locker room like him. And he has a very clear role, which he knew. He clearly knew the history of. Of the Detroit Pistons when he got drafted by them. He clearly knew that. He got the baton from Rick Mahorn and you Know all the other guys from Detroit of yesteryear. He knew that his assignment, okay. And he's probably going to take the suspension in the fine with a smile.

[Raja Bell]

Like, oh, all jokes aside, all jokes aside, I know it's the, you're, you're attacking the hilarity of it, right? And, and that is funny. But to, to, to, to bring some seriousness into that, that means a lot when, when you, and you're not protecting someone in that instance that's smaller than you, like Jaylen Duran is a, is a very large human being. What you're saying is it's my job to protect any of these dudes on my team. And that goes a long way, dude. Like not just in the locker room, but as it, as it, as it projects to other teams coming into your building thinking that they can push you around and, and you know, fuck with your stars in any capacity. Like, don't get that twisted. That's, that's, there's real value in that. Now it's going to cost him a lot of bread, but you know what that means to a team especially, especially a team that hopes to win some games and has some high end stars like hopes to win some playoff series. Like that's valuable.

[Howard Beck]

So this is right and wrong. At the same time though, I'd say Raja, like on, I get it as a human matter and as, as a matter of just like teammates and what you need to do to look out for your guys, right? This is, this is what bonds a team together sometimes. I mean, you don't want to, like, there are a lot of things. You don't need fights to bond a team together. But I understand exactly what you're saying about what that will mean to his teammates and in that locker room and that maybe it's worth however many games and lost pay is going to go along with it as a consequence. But the impulse to say, I gotta stand up for my guy, I gotta protect my guy, that's my teammate out there is what got us the bench clearing brawls of the 90s and early 2000s that led to all of the new rules about leaving the bench and all this stuff. Anyway, like, the whole point of this is, yes, we understand everyone's got a human impulse and as a, as a teammate and as a competitor to go and get into the fray because you want to protect your guy. But too many people doing that. You're not all peacemakers now. You're, you're escalators, right? And so this just feels like one of those cases where Isaiah Stewart is both right in. In your terms as a teammate, but still wrong in the big picture here, because this is how things escalate and get out of control.

[Raja Bell]

Oh, make no mistake. Like, he's. He's. Once we've started fighting, everyone's wrong. I mean, not everyone's wrong, but, like, that in and of itself is wrong. Right. Like, we don't want to be at that point. Yeah. And I'm not. I'm. I'm not saying that. You know, raising my kids, I would tell them to fly in off the bench and go try to fight. Like I. I usually tell mine, hey, man, you know, if. If you're not already on that court, don't come flying in, you know, because of the suspensions, even in high school and stuff that can take place. Right.

[Logan Murdoch]

Like.

[Raja Bell]

But what I'm saying to you is if someone has made the choice to do that and they deem that their role on a team, right or wrong, that is a. That is a safe kind of feeling for people on that team.

[Logan Murdoch]

Sure.

[Raja Bell]

That are bigger stars, maybe, or carry more weight offensively or are targets more often by the other team defensively in terms of game plans or cheap shots. Knowing that you got somebody like that that will hold you down and is not putting up with any shit, it's a good thing. It's a good feeling to have at times. Not saying that he, you know, we want that. We definitely don't want that. But you told me I could have a team with an enforcer that would have my back at all times or have a team that didn't have that. Give me the team with it.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, it takes a lot of pressure off, too. I mean, we've both covered teams. Howard with guys that are shit starters is one way to put it, but also just guys that are going to stand up for their teammate in that way.

[Raja Bell]

And.

[Logan Murdoch]

And it takes a lot of pressure off the stars. Right. To the fact that they know that they don't. Now, some stars take advantage of that and talk shit out of both sides of their mouth. But I think what I. What Isaiah Stewart's role is on this team is getting even more vital now. He shouldn't get suspended, but he. Him just being an enforcer is definitely going to help Detroit going forward as they, you know, continue to be the best team in the east right now.

[Howard Beck]

One you didn't highlight. Logan. I don't know if this was on your list of fun little snapshots from the scene last night. Duncan Robinson going for the Roger Murtaugh I'm too old for this shit award just turned around and it's perfect because the camera angle is getting him turning around so he's almost like facing the camera as if this was like planned, like this was like the director's like, all right, zone in on Duncan Robinson and he's like, just turns around like he's got this look of disgust on his face. Ah, fuck me, man. I, I don't, no, I, I, I'm not getting this.

[Raja Bell]

Not a good look, dude.

[Howard Beck]

No, I know. No, it's the opposite of the Isaiah Stewart, right? It's funny for us. Probably not going over well in that locker room, Raja.

[Raja Bell]

Not a good look, man. There are going to be whispers about.

[Logan Murdoch]

Like, you see this?

[Howard Beck]

He's the three point shooter. Nobody expects like the three point specialist to get in the fight even.

[Raja Bell]

But listen, not even in a fighting, not even. You can't peacemake out there, like, yeah.

[Howard Beck]

Just go grab somebody. He's tall, anybody. He's not a small guy.

[Raja Bell]

You, you just walked away like in my hands. That suggests like, hey, I would, I, I have no investment here. I am, I have no investment here. But like that's just from the outside. Here's the only other thing I would say about the, the point we were, we were kind of debating Howard is. And it's specific to like Detroit and teams that play like them. That's who they, that's where they want to live in terms of, you know, their, their, their kind of brand of basketball, like the culture that they're, they're about and so on those teams that, that role becomes even more important.

[Logan Murdoch]

Right.

[Raja Bell]

Like OKC doesn't necessarily need that. They don't, that's not the way they're built for them. And the style they play, it could be important.

[Logan Murdoch]

Just want to, like I said it at the top of the segment, but Hornets really good basketball team snapped a nine game winning streak. Garage's Hornets doing their thing. Also. Another fight happened. Also another fighter.

[Raja Bell]

Yes, there was, there was another one.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, it wasn't really a fight. It was. Nas Reed also was a big hold me back because he had two chances to throw a punch. It was like, wait, I missed. I'm just gonna like lightly tap the opponent's arm. Like, we're not fighting anymore here. You know, we got bags to protect. But I just wanted to note that, that it was, it was pretty anticlimactic.

[Raja Bell]

It was a dust up. It was a little dust up.

[Howard Beck]

All right, before we leave this though, how many games is Isaiah Stewart getting that's the question.

[Logan Murdoch]

10.

[Howard Beck]

He's. I mean, he'll have the most out of all of them because he left the bench and escalated, right?

[Raja Bell]

Well, may.

[Logan Murdoch]

Maybe, but. Maybe. But like, is he gonna get more than Bridges?

[Raja Bell]

Cause Miles Bridges was. I mean, I. I saw multiple.

[Logan Murdoch]

He put. He put Bridges in. From what I saw. He put Bridges in the headlock a little bit, and then Bridges got up out of that, and then everybody just started crowding.

[Howard Beck]

This is where everybody starts trying to do the math around the league. And again, so I'm. I'm working with sports business classroom. So among people I saw this morning, Bob, Tommy Shepard, former GM of the Wizards, Ryan McDonough, former GM of the Sun. So, like, we're all just like chatting about like this stuff and the tanking stuff and everything else, but there's a. There's a conversation that happens around. I'm not going to indict these guys in this particular conversation. I'll just let you guys know. But there's a conversation that happens every time there's something like this around the league where it's like, well, if David were commissioner because. Because suspensions were pretty harsh back in the day. And I will just say, like, I haven't done the statistics on this, but I'm pretty sure if I. If I ran the numbers, average length of suspension is down in the Adam Silver era. Yeah, there's fewer fights, real fights these days anyway, too. But I feel like even when there's been some ones, like there was that Suns Clippers dust up a several. Several years back, it seems like suspensions are a little lighter these days. So everyone's like in the old days. Yeah, Isaiah Stewart, 10 games, probably minimum.

[Logan Murdoch]

Probably like five.

[Howard Beck]

I think it's gonna be more. Yeah, like five or six or something. And then everybody else will be somewhere in like the three to four range. That's. That would be my guess. But I'm.

[Logan Murdoch]

Is there a world where Bridges and Stewart both get five games? Because, like, Bridges was wild. He didn't leave the bench, but he was he also out of control. Out of control.

[Raja Bell]

He was out of control.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Howard Beck]

And Diabate, like, it's understood that guys are going to have a moment when things get tense like that and get physical, but you're supposed to then compose yourself. It's supposed to dissolve. And if it doesn't, every moment that you are continuing to push this forward and then involving more people is going to add to it. So the fact that like Diabate and Bridges both kept going and going and going that's going to factor in their suspension lanes for sure.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, I agree with that. I think every time you break a tackle and re engage could be a game.

[Logan Murdoch]

That boy was Barry Sanders out there, wasn't he?

[Raja Bell]

He was shaking man. That's crazy.

[Logan Murdoch]

All right, let's take a break. Talk about tanking.

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[Logan Murdoch]

Okay, guys, it's been a very eventful weekend for losers. And when I say losers, I'm talking about the Utah Jazz, who a couple of days ago traded for Jaren Jackson Jr. To pair with Laurie Marketen and Yousef Nurkic and all three of them sat out the fourth quarter of an eventual loss to the Orlando Magic, a game in which they were up 17 points. Will Hardy just sat him down. Just straight up sat him down. And that is also coming on the heels of the Washington Wizards trade, where they traded for two guys that they're just going to just sit for the rest of the season so they can keep their pick. Brooklyn is starting to sit. MPJ Brooklyn's not very good, but any chance that they're trying to win, they are taking that away by just sitting there. Star players. It's gotten to the point point where the competition committee this is according to friend of the pod. Mark Stein has discussed ways to change the pattern of loserness that is happening and permeating around the NBA. I'm going to start with Howard on this. What does this say about the NBA now? That we are just in a perpetual loser mentality when it comes to picks, when it comes to teams. I can't even. I don't even. Whenever I. This is, I think specific to the NBA, where I go into a season and I can count at least 10 teams that don't even want to win going into a season. I don't know if I can look at that at any other league, whether it's mlb, whether it's NFL, whether it's soccer overseas. What do we do about this Howard man?

[Howard Beck]

So I wrote about this on the ringer.com a few weeks ago about how the headline was something about the NBA learned to love losing. And my point of that piece was that the last 10, 12, 13 years, ever since Sam Hinkey's process in Philly, this is the tanking era. It's not that tanking never happened before. The Rockets infamously tanked to get Akeem Olajuwon way back when. And there have been other years. The spurs were believed to have done it by keeping David Robinson out longer than necessary so they could get the Duncan pick. But it was momentary things and it would be a team here or there. It wasn't a system wide, league wide worldwide conversation where we're actually also like judging teams based on like, well, they're not that good. They should just tank. Oh, they got a protective pick. They should tank. We are all involved in this now. And one of the lines in the story is that we're all complicit in this. This is the tanking era. This is the first era of the NBA the last 10 to 15 years where we discuss this constantly. It's a 365 day discussion. To Logan's point. You start the season and we already know which teams are kind of just planning to sit it out and the off season, oh, they're. They're offloading guys or they're not adding guys. They're not using their cap room as a scheme, as a strategy, and as something that we all embrace without even flinching. This is new. Ish. It's the last decade or so. It didn't used to be this way. It didn't used to be this bad. So that was the piece I wrote a few weeks ago. If people want to go check it [e-mail] in terms of where it is right now. Like the league had all these reforms they made, right? Like they reshuffled the lottery odds to make it flatter and to not give as much incentive to the worst team. Now it's like three teams have the same odds. The bottom three teams instead of one team with the best odds. That seemed to help a little initially. We've got the play in tournament that incentivizes teams to keep trying late in the season. And like, I think there were some good early returns from those innovations where it did seem to like depress this a little bit. But what's happened, we have a potentially historically great draft class coming and teams that foresaw this were already planning on tanking this season. That's Brooklyn, that's Washington, that's Utah to an extent. And. But we also have a bunch of teams that are like tanking now that did not set out to. So like, to Logan's point, about 10 teams. Let's look at the bottom 10. Right. We have three teams that were already in tear downs. Definitely were planning to be shitty this season. Washington, Brooklyn, Utah. Then there's some teams that are just like here because of injuries. Right. The Pacers lost Halliburton. They'd much rather be returning to the finals. Have they leaned into the. To the losing? Possibly, but they didn't intend to spend.

[Logan Murdoch]

A lot of injuries this season and.

[Howard Beck]

They'Ve had a lot of injuries, legit injuries. Dallas without Kyrie to start, lose lively early, lose Ad for a long stretch. Dallas would have much rather, in the wake of the Luca trade, been competitive. Milwaukee, Giannis. So these are all teams that are in the bottom 10 that I'm going to loosely throw into this, this, this tank race or this, this lottery ball race. Then there's four teams that tried to win, but just through bad luck or incompetence or whatever. They're just bad Anyway, the Kings like signed guys last summer, they weren't trying to lose. The Kings just suck. The Pelicans don't even own their pick. No incentive to lose. They're just awful. And then there's the Grizzlies, who set out to win and then pulled the plug. Traded Jaren Jackson Jr. You know, things are just have gone off the rails there and, and Jaw's been out a bunch. And then the Chicago Bulls. The Bulls who. The Bulls who, who are not even quote unquote, smart enough. Because we like to credit teams for being smart when they strategically tank. The Bulls weren't even smart enough to tank. They, they, they suddenly realized, oh, we suck. Let's just trade everybody. And they're as, as, as Zach Lowe has mentioned many times, they, they, they committed to this way too late. There's too many teams to leapfrog. But like the, the Pacers also have an added incentive now because of the Zubac deal where they keep their pick if it's the top four in the top four or 10 or lower. So they're definitely not going for the 10 or lower scenario and they're definitely not preferring to trade it to the Clippers if it falls 5 through 9. So the Pacers are incentivized to be as bad as possible. The Wizards have a protected 1 to 8 pick. To the Knicks, they're incentivized to be as bad as possible. The Jazz pick is also 8 top 8 protected or it goes to Oklahoma. They're incentivized to be as bad as possible. So you take all these things and a historically great draft class and this is it. So this is a conversation again, I will say when I talk to Bobby, Tommy and Ryan McDonough, everybody agrees. This is the earliest we've ever seen teams just saying it and, and being blatant about it. Right? The Jazz benching starters. And you can bet Adam's going to be asked about this on Saturday night when he does his annual All Star presser. When the Jazz is. Has a 17 point lead and they didn't have the lead at the, at the top, top of the fourth, but they had it in the se. In the second half, I think, and benches Markin and their brand new shiny Toy, Jiren Jackson Jr. And then lose the game like that is. That is as blatant as it gets. That is gross.

[Raja Bell]

That's gross. I'm sorry, go ahead.

[Howard Beck]

No, go. Roger. I'm, I'm good.

[Raja Bell]

No, that's gross.

[Logan Murdoch]

That's gross. That's gross.

[Raja Bell]

I Don't have much to add to that. Look, look, the, the, the way the, the way the league is set up, the mechanics of it all. You know, we've talked before about how that no man's land, in between having those high picks and not being competitive enough to, like, compete for a championship is not where you want to live for any extended stretch of time. So I understand that the way the league is set up there, there. It's. You're going to be incentivized at some point to do that. I, I think it's. I'm sick of the hypocritical, like, nature of it, all right? Like, you could a fan base, a front office, an ownership group. It is when we want to lose and we want to tank as a player, be complicit. Like, let us sit you when, when we need to sit you so that we can lose, we're going to take you out of games that you, as a competitor, want to win because we want to lose. But then as soon as we feel like we have enough as an organization, fans, ownership, front office, now you as the player got to be a fucking competitor and want to win every game. You don't flip a switch with that shit. Like, it's dangerous. Maybe some people can, but it's a dangerous thing to play with that, asking someone to not be competitive for stretches of time. And then when you deem it necessary now you want them to be all in and be competitive and be willing to do whatever you need them to do in a quest for a championship. I think it's bullshit, and I think it's hypocritical.

[Howard Beck]

Roger, if you were on a. If you were on a team where, you know, you're, You're, You're. You're Your usual role during your time, right? You're the fourth or fifth starter or sixth man or whatever it is. And, you know, like, these are my. These are my guys I'm leaning on. Markkanen and Jaren Jackson Jr. These are the guys I'm playing off of. These are the guys who allow me to do what I do because they're carrying the load. And you go into a fourth quarter, and suddenly it's like you're playing all 12 minutes, Raja. And by the way, take as many shots as you want. Like, what. What does that do to you psychologically, if you're, like, one of their teammates?

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, I mean, that's a. What the f. Like, what are we doing? What. What are we really. Look, what are we trying to achieve here? And if it is losing games, don't play them. Don't play them at all. Let them. Let them sit over there like MPJ in street clothes. I don't agree with that either, but if that's the way we're going to approach this, just sit them and let us hoop.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah.

[Raja Bell]

Don't roll them out there and have us in the midst of a game that we could win. Look, man, if you ain't out there to win a game, what the fuck are you doing on a court or a field? What are you doing? Like, why are we out here? So if you've given us an opportunity to do this with our team and we are in the midst of it with that opportunity, like, right in front of us, you're going to snatch that away from us and then come in the locker room and shake our hands? No, don't do that. Don't do that.

[Logan Murdoch]

It's. It's malpractice. It's. It's. I just. I've just been very frustrated by the NBA because of these things, right? Because of the tanking, because of the incentive to talk about picks that are. That are going to happen. There's no other sport I go to. Go watch football with my homies. I go to watch soccer with my homies. I go to watch baseball with my homies. The NBA is the only sport where during an actual game, you're talking about, oh, yeah, man, there's a. My team has a protected pick coming up. We have to lose this game. It's okay. We. What the fuck are we having sports for? It's just a complete loser mentality, man. And then on the other side, yeah, some executive say, like, it's the smart play to tank bullshit. Because the other thing that they want to do, this is the real thing, what they want to do is they want to extend their job security. The easiest way to extend your job security is say, oh, we're just going to kick the can down the road because we have this pick. We can just build towards this, this. This mythical draft that's going to happen, and maybe we'll get this player, and maybe we'll get this player. How about you just try to win? How about you come with the mentality every single time to try to put your team in the best possible position to win the game or to win and also be smart about it. But, like, when you tell your players consistently, hey, we're going to sit this out, you're going to sit these games out, it brings a mentality that continues to build and you can't turn that mentality off. Right? The Jazz have been doing this for five years. They've been tanking for five years. And have they gotten marginally better? No, they haven't. They have not. And a lot of that has been because they have been tanking as well. But their teams, they play hard, but they haven't gotten just some magical guy that is just going to make them great and great. No, it's a mentality that they've done. They've seeped into their fan base to do this, but that's whack, man. If I'm a fan of a basketball team, I want to see them play in May. I want to see them striving. I want to see the Raiders have sucked my whole life. But at least they tried to get Randy Moss right. They tried to do something to. To. To revamp the organization. They suck. But like, hey, they try. Or if you're. This is another thing. If you're a Kings fan, we brag on the Kings, but at least in some version, they're at least trying to do something. At least. It's very twisted, but they're trying. We give Joe Lacomb shit all the time. He is trying as an owner, as an owner to have his team be the best it could be. I am just. The frustrating part is just like we've just seeped over the last 15 years in the NBA that losing is good. What? All right.

[Howard Beck]

Far be it from me to justify the unjustifiable or to endorse all the moral hazards, but. No, but it's. It exists for a reason. One is there's still a reverse order draft. As long as you have a reverse order draft, you've created the perverse incentive. You create a lottery to try to tamp that down. But the lottery and all the versions that they've had over the last, you know, 40 years hasn't done enough to tamp it down. Because there's always still at the end of it, a reverse order draft. Because at the end of the day, the NBA wants to give bad teams a chance to get better players so that they are no longer bad. It's about giving them some sense of hope. So that if you can't root for wins, you can at least root for the possibility of something else. A savior. The savior thing doesn't always work right. In fact, more often than not, it doesn't. You tank the wrong year, the lottery balls don't bounce your way. Someone goes bust Zion. There's all kinds of different ways in which this can go badly even if you, you played it quote unquote, right. But to Logan's point about the Jazz been bad for five, I think it's actually four years they've been tanking whatever since they blew it up and sent out Donovan and Don and Rudy Gobert. You know, just, you know, but look, they got Lowry market in, in, in one of those trades, the Donovan Mitchell trade, they got picks. Keante George, not a, a player who was taken at the top of the lottery. He was like mid first round, but like starting to come on and looking good. But the more the big thing here is as the Jazz go and make that trade for Jaren Jackson Jr. It's a signal that they're planning to come out of this right now. They're not coming out of it right now because they're sitting Jaren Jackson Jr. In fourth quarters. But as long as they hold on to their top eight protected pick, and who knows, maybe they get a top four pick and they walk away with DeBancer or Boozer or one of these guys. Logan, that's not going to negate your, your, your, your statement about like, what did you get out of it? They may get something out of it and the Wizards might get something out of it. And we're going to look back and go like, yeah, it was all shitty. But you know what? When the spurs come out of it with Victor Wembanyama and Stefan Castle and Dylan Harper, was it worth it? Fuck yeah, it was. For the spurs and their fans and their front office, it's not like, yes, there's a, there's an element of this sometimes that I think is, as you say, kicking the can down the road or protecting your job, whatever else. But it's also just the fact that sometimes there's a guy who can change the entire trajectory of your, of your franchise and if you've got a shot to get him and you can improve that shot by a percentage point or two or three, everyone would do it. So it, it, it really still goes back to the incentive structure, which is the league deciding we're going to have a reverse order draft and a lottery and I mean, we can version it.

[Logan Murdoch]

But I do feel like there's a defeatist attitude towards like, oh, well, this is just the rules. Like, how about you change the incentive structure? Continue to change it in a meaningful way. Right? Because there's another version of this where like, I mean, the NBA and the ownership, they do a lot of ways to try to, you know, take money about players Pockets with aprons. With. With the 65 game rule. Specifically the aprons. Let's just say with the aprons. Is there an incentive structure where if you just blatantly tank or blatantly do these things continually over years. How about first, It's a fine, right? They don't. Teams don't care about a fine. We saw what happened with Dallas. But it's. It's the first step, right? In Utah, that's the first step. Then it's like, okay, then we're going to take your second round pick if you're just not going to try, right? Or then we're going to just. If you continue to just blatantly just disregard basketball or disregard the things in the game. Sorry.

[Raja Bell]

But yeah, you're going to escalate punishments on teams for spending trying to win, and you ain't going to escalate like, punishments for teams that are perpetually going to lose until they can win. That's ridiculous.

[Logan Murdoch]

I hate that. Like, even like this, the Sixers who just traded away a guy to just get under the tax. That's what we have continually to do. On one hand, we're over here like, oh, we need to lose in order to. We need to lose in order to get a pick. And then also we need to trade away guys just to stay under the sal. Like, they just, they're cheap. They're cheap. And then they're just losers, bro. That's what the. That's what the def. That's what the last 15 years have been for like maybe a tenth of the league. It's just. We're just going to be losers.

[Raja Bell]

I just want to say this about, about. But I, I agree with you, Logan, but I just, I just want to come at this from a player perspective and like, from a. What's his name? Hardy? Is it Will Hardy?

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, the Jazz, who's a good coach, by the way.

[Howard Beck]

Very good.

[Raja Bell]

Good coach. I listen, we were out in, in Utah a few years ago. Boris D. Had DNI over to the crib. Will Hardy was there. Like, it was one of my favorite interactions with an NBA head coach. We sat around and had a couple bottles of wine. It was fantastic. I thought he was great. How do you ask that dude? And he might be good enough where he can execute it, but you put him in a situation where he's looking at dudes and you're mandating that throughout the course of seasons, given opportunities to win, he has to go out there and reverse execute and try to lose. How does that same guy look at a team three years from now and say, all right, fellas, need you guys to buy into winning. Need you to trust what I'm like, you put him in a really messed up spot.

[Logan Murdoch]

Like you're.

[Raja Bell]

You put him in a situation where he's got to talk out of both sides of his mouth. I. I don't think that's right. And just to the whole, hey, we wind up with Stefan Castle, we wind up with, with Wemb, we wind up. Yeah, yeah, that's dope. But the league ain't all about those dudes. If there were only those three mofos on a team, the team wouldn't exist. What about all the casualties in the middle of that that you've. That you've. There's so much more to it than that.

[Logan Murdoch]

You.

[Raja Bell]

Don't you understand what I'm saying? Like, you've taken years of people's careers in some instance and rolled the dice with them and played, played like this should be a meritocracy. That's what the sport is about. That's what we're out here trying to do. We're going out, we're trying to win games, we're trying to get paid for being the best. And if you're asking us to lose games, that does affect me as a role player. I don't come in nearly as much on a shitty team as a role player as I do on a really good team as a role player. And I just don't think that you as an organization or as a league as a whole should. Should have an infrastructure in place that rewards that. I don't think. I don't think it's right.

[Logan Murdoch]

I mean, and we've. I think we've convinced ourselves as a league that building through the draft is the way to go. And it is. Right? It's the cheapest way to build a contender. You know, it's a less punitive way to build a contender. But there have been plenty of teams throughout the course of NBA history that did not build through the draft and have built a contend. Raja is. Was a part of one of those teams because they traded for the Suns. Was it traded or they signed Steve Nash and free agency. I think it was a signage. Right. If I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure it was before my time, but. Oh, this.

[Howard Beck]

When the Suns got him.

[Logan Murdoch]

When the Suns got him, Signed him out.

[Howard Beck]

Signed him outright.

[Logan Murdoch]

Signed him outright. Right. But like you could. That was on his. That was a major, one of the best redemption stories in, you know, league history. That happened. Right. But like, you can have these things where you can trade for a guy. Cleveland has done this all the time. But just try. When I see Danny Ains just out here punting seasons, I'm like, you're the same guy that rolled the dice to get Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen and team up with Paul Pierce in the stroke of like three, four weeks, Right? Like you, when you try, you can build a team together. And I just don't feel, I feel like it's a cop out to continue to just, we're just going to kick the can down the road. It's. There's luck. That's always a part of this. The spurs is a great example of this. But just, it's the mentality that I am annoyed with.

[Raja Bell]

Howard, can I ask, can I ask a question? And I don't know that you would know the answer. I don't know how tapped in you are, but I find this, this is interesting to me. And it's, it, I think to some degree highlights what I'm talking about, the attitude that the NBA takes. And I'm not blaming teams. I think it's a structural issue from the top, the way, the way, you know, the, the, the, the mechanisms of the way the league works, right. But like, you're going to do everything you can to lose games. You're going to, you know, stack or unstack the deck, however you look at it, to give yourself the best possible chance to get one of these top picks. Now here we got one of the universal top two picks in the NBA draft at Kansas, right? Darren Peterson. Phenomenal. I hope he has a great pro career. But what I'm starting to hear now about him is like, what's going on with him? Why isn't he playing? Why is he sitting out games? Is his camp advising him not to be out there and be competitive at all times? Is that a red flag on him? Like, you can't have both of those things. You can't be the league that does that and then turn around and hold it against a talented college kid. Because he's choosing to execute that. He's following your model.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah. This is what we talk about. We talk about moral hazards, right? And also just like the messages you're sending and the culture you're creating as a league. And then that can seep into other areas too, right?

[Logan Murdoch]

I don't know.

[Howard Beck]

I, I will say this to, to Logan's point. I mean, you can build a championship caliber team or a finals team a lot of different ways.

[Raja Bell]

Right.

[Howard Beck]

Like, so the Thunder, defending champions right now, their best player, Shay Gilgis Alexander, not a top three pick. He was like whatever, 12th, 13th, somewhere in that range. Their second best player, Jalen Williams, they got, you know, pick via trade again, like I think was 12th overall, something like that. So like Chet's the one that they tanked and got where they got via tanking. Right. So it mattered, but it wasn't the way that they built entirely. The Celtics are the champion before them. Jalen and Jason Tatum were both top three picks. Now they weren't their picks, they were somebody else's top three picks. Hello, Brooklyn Nets. But the value of a top three pick is substantial and it doesn't always work out. Right. And you, we can go back. Look, the Nuggets built a champion around a second round pick, Nikola Jokic. The warriors built a champion around what was Steph, the sixth pick, seventh pick, seventh pick. The Bucks built a champion around the 15th pick in, in Giannis. There are, there are various ways to do this, but especially if you are a smaller market team, if you're not a destination team, if you're not a team that's going to get superstars via free agency and it's harder to get them be a trade even because they'll say, oh, nope, not going to resign with you. Check, check me out, you know, take me off the list. Then tanking in the draft is, is the way it doesn't always work out. And like, look, Dallas last year leaps from 11th to 1. Leapfrogs. All these teams that had spent their whole season tanking, they all get screwed. And the Mavericks, who were stupid enough to trade away Luka Doncic, the lottery balls, reward them with, stop it, Raja, stop it.

[Logan Murdoch]

And even in. And also, Howard, what, what were the Mavericks doing? Now? We could say, we could talk about like the, the method of how they were doing, but they were striving to win that whole time.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah, yeah. So it, it, it can go any, any different number of ways. And it's, there's no guarantee. There's no guarantee you win the lottery. There's no guarantee the guy you pick works out. There's no guarantee the guy stays healthier, isn't a bust or whatever, but it's still the best odds play. And so teams are still going to do what's logical to them. And we all intellectually understand it, we may hate it. And Raja has spoken very, you know, righteously and passionately and I, I think rightly about all of that. And, and I can't argue with any of it. But I am of two minds of it. And I think most NBA fans these days are where it's like, this is all a little icky. Don't like this. Not cool. Not. There's no competitive integrity to this. At the same time, if I'm the GM or the owner of that team. Eh, yeah, I get it, I get it.

[Logan Murdoch]

You know what's going to happen, you know what's going to happen when, you know, a young crop of kids and young fans are coming up and they see just a whole bunch of teams tanking. They're just going to be like, oh, this is weak. Like the player that I want to see. They're not coming because they're sitting on the bench. You know what they're going to do? They're going to go watch other sports. They're going to be like, oh, NFL, yo. I get to watch them play. And they're playing hard all the time. It's way more compelling, right? I'm going to go watch soccer where they're actually give a fuck. Like, it's not just this part. It's, it's the totality of the integrity of the game.

[Raja Bell]

And while, while, while I understand it and I'm, I'm like, I understand it. I obviously, like, I don't have to like it, but I understand it. What I would say is not only is that a potential, you know, risk, Logan, but what I can tell you is happening because I'm in these streets with these young kids is you are really blurring the line and confusing them as to what is really important in sports. And that has always been fucking competing. It has been always the foundation of what is important when you're trying to raise champions. It's competition, not running from it. Playing through something that you, that you could have a 55, 45 chance of not playing if you can get your little tail out there and play. That has always been foundationally what sports are about, the competition of it all. And as a league, you are, you are setting a poor example in that. And it has trickled down. I just gave you. And I just gave you one on that. On the college level, I can point to 10 or 11 at the high school level and below that. That's the trickle down effect that, and maybe it doesn't become so pervasive that it's an actual problem for our basketball as a culture, but it's certainly happening.

[Logan Murdoch]

I do wonder you brought up a point earlier, Raja, that I thought was pointed. I want to go back to when you were talking about the players involved in this, right? Because I can't imagine at least the players that I grew up with, with the competitiveness that they displayed, that if a coach told them to sit down and they knew why they were sitting down, they would be like, what the fuck? Like, if it was a star player and it was like, no, you're going to sit down for the rest of the game. For the next 30 minutes, you're sitting down. I know you're, we're up 17, but there's a bigger play out here. I know players would be like, what are you, are you talking about?

[Raja Bell]

What are you talking about?

[Logan Murdoch]

I'm going back in the fucking game. You know, And I think there's a responsibility to that, too. And I think that that speaks to your trickle down effect premise. Roger that. Players are also like, you know what? Cool. You right. I'm about to go sit my ass down, man. I'm about to. Give me some ice.

[Raja Bell]

That's what. Yes, Logan, yes. That's bananas. That anyone would accept.

[Logan Murdoch]

Triple J is like, oh, yeah, Cool bet. Thanks, coach.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, I'm good. I got my, I got my jacks up for tonight. I shot my, I got my 22.

[Logan Murdoch]

I'm good.

[Raja Bell]

Let's ice these things up. That is crazy. And I would just say to the fan, right? Like, who? You know, Howard, you are correct. The fan probably lives in the world like we do, which is, hey, man, we don't love it, we understand it, it's necessary. Maybe we come out on the other end of this and we're a championship caliber team, but you don't get to be the fan that accepts that and says, I'm cool with that. And I'm cool with them telling like, Laurie Markkanen and Jerry, you know, Jared, to sit down for a half. And then if they come to your city and you've bought the ticket on flex pricing and paid the premium for it, and that star says, I ain't playing tonight, you don't get to be incensed about that. If you're also the one that's going to accept, hey, bro, we need to. That's just the way the league works. We're going to have to sit them down. When we have an opportunity to win a game, they're the same thing.

[Logan Murdoch]

That's so whack, man. That's so whack. I just, I, I, I saw the Sixers the other week and I would be really crushed if BJ Edgecomb was like, you know what, man? I ain't Gonna play. I'm not. I'm just not gonna do it. I'm not gonna play. This is the only time we get to see the Sixers out in the West Cup.

[Howard Beck]

VJ Edgecomb, who they only have because they tanked to make sure that they kept their pick last year.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, but, like, yeah, for sure, right? This podcast is a complete circle. I still stand. Shut up, nerd. No, I'm not, bro. But, like, it's the overall mentality, man. Like. And also, by the way, since we're on it, and I want to. I just want to point this out. We do have to get to Mailbag. I want to point this out because I thought it was whack as fuck that he did this. What Daryl Morey said about McCain was just whack. It was so whack. Did you hear this, Roger? Did you hear what he said?

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, I did.

[Logan Murdoch]

When he said that we sold high on McCain. We're selling. That was such a whack thing to say. Say as a. As someone in a front office about a player like, that was in your building that you drafted. That's what, like it. And I get.

[Raja Bell]

People look at these.

[Logan Murdoch]

Less people look at these players as numbers. We already know that. But to put that. And just say that in a. In a group setting around a whole bunch of people with cameras on. Bro, you should be ashamed of yourself, bro.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, because no one asked you. No one. And no one asked you that. No one posed the question.

[Logan Murdoch]

No one asked you in the hurt. Right. No one asked him to get hurt. And he was second in rookie of the Year. He was. He was one of the top rookies last year before he got hurt and is. Should have a promising NBA career. But you just don't do that, bro. That's. It was whack.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, that's kind of.

[Logan Murdoch]

And it speaks. And it speaks to, like, the analytical era that we're in and how we look at these players numbers and how we look at these draft picks numbers and these games numbers, and we've gotten the human element. I think that's what pisses me off about the tanking is in a roundabout way, it is taking the human element out of the basketball of it all, right? Of like, oh, you're just a number. We gotta lose these games in order to get to this number and get to this number. And we have this protection on this pick. Like, man, let's just hoop. Like, let's just hoop and don't treat people like shit. Cause I thought that Daryl Maury became like, Shit on the way out. And he's a nice guy. He didn't do nothing wrong to nobody. And that was whack.

[Raja Bell]

I've shared this. I've shared this before. I agree with you on that. And, you know, the front office I was in, in Cleveland, everyone knows them. We've talked about this, and none of them took that approach where, where, where as human beings, they're all great dudes. I wouldn't, I wouldn't second guess any of them in terms of, like, getting at a podium and saying something like that. All these people are great human beings. I still talk to all of them, but even in that space, I sat at a table once with them as we went through, you know, you're grading the entire league. And I've shared this before. And, you know, I, I, I had to shed a little light as the former player in that room to guys about, like, hey, this feels a little soulless, if you will. Like, we, We.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

This.

[Logan Murdoch]

It.

[Raja Bell]

It isn't just a number and a letter. Like, there's a human being that's, that's.

[Logan Murdoch]

Attached to the game is the game, too. Right? Like, I get that. I get that. Game is the game.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, no, yeah, but, but, and, and you're. Look, you're operating in that front office, you know, from a very, from a highly analytical standpoint, and I can respect that. But as I sat there, the veil was kind of removed for me as a player because I didn't see it like this when I was on the other side. All we see is the human element. That's what we're living in day to day. Like, I got relationships with these dudes. I know Eddie House. Like, I know James Jones. I know their family. I know what makes them tick. Like, I know that if they missed that jump shot, like, I know maybe why he missed that jump shot. Do you understand what I'm saying? Like, I can attach the human. And we're sitting at that table with, at this front office, and we're just assigning Howard Beck as a player that Raja knows. 1C. And then there's a little, like, caption that I could go read and see what C means. Questionable character. Like this and that. And I'm like, God, dog, this is. This is. So what's the word I want to use for it?

[Howard Beck]

I don't know.

[Raja Bell]

My vocabulary. Yeah, to some degree. Right. But it was, like, really sterile, if you will. You know what I mean? Like, it was, it was. I don't know how to really articulate it, but for me, it Was eye opening. And I, those are my friends and they do a fantastic job. And I'd like to think that in some regards, like, they took what I was saying with them, like, and became better for it. But I was like, guys, you gotta, you got to remember that these are human beings and there's more to it. You know, when you, when you say somebody can't play, like that's a trigger of mine. We've been on here before, right? And I'm like, guys, don't do that. Like, can't do that. Like, because that's not, that's not fair. We're at the highest level of this sport. Like, we can't do that.

[Logan Murdoch]

And I just, like, we, I don't think it goes both ways in that, right? Because we, we, we, we laugh when Daryl Morey does says something like that. But we talk shit about James Harden when he goes to China and says that Daryl More, he lied to me, right? Or, and it's not the same reaction on both sides, right? Or like we laugh when a front office says that Lamelo Ball said he wanted to be president. Why are you laughing at that? Right? And that's just a punchline. And we have gotten the human. I just say all that to say that we have gotten the human element out of this league. And then we just look at these basketball players, at least outwardly speaking, because they've always kind of been looking at as numbers, right? That's the business, that's what we're in. But like, we have just been outwardly taking the human element out of it. And I think that's why, you know, we're having a, we're looking at a losing league right now. A league full of losers, literally.

[Howard Beck]

Although, although the ultimate rejoinder to that, unfortunately. And why the league, when we talk about like, why aren't they was in the more urgency to like fix tanking or fix this or fix that or any of the other ills that we've just discussed today or, or, or any other time. They just signed this insanely lucrative new media rights deal. The league's making more money than it's ever made before. They're, they're at like 11 or 12 billion. The players, despite second aprons and everything else. The players in the aggregate make 50% of it. So they're getting their 5, 6 billion. The player contracts are through the roof. Even the minimum guys, even the mid level guys, everybody's making out great. And I would just say on some level it insulates them. Not in a healthy way. Necessarily. I'm not saying it's justified. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it does insulate everybody. And it might make them a little complacent. It might make them take a little bit of all this for granted. And so it's not crashing and burning. Logan, the fans aren't turning away yet. They're not abandoning them, but they may. And just because you signed this lucrative media rights deal doesn't mean the next one will be just as robust. So they do have to watch themselves. But I also think. I think that. That the vast wealth of the league right now means that. That they can. They can brush a lot of this stuff aside, whether it's a good thing or not.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, it's a good point. I don't have much else to say. Great cover.

[Howard Beck]

Well, the holidays have come and gone once again.

[Raja Bell]

But if you've forgotten to get that.

[Howard Beck]

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[Raja Bell]

Well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday.

[Howard Beck]

Offer of half off unlimited wireless.

[Raja Bell]

So here's the idea. You get it now, you call it an early present for next year.

[Logan Murdoch]

What do you have to lose?

[Howard Beck]

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[Raja Bell]

Upfront payment required.

[Howard Beck]

$45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 month plan taxes and fees.

[Raja Bell]

Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy.

[Logan Murdoch]

See terms, conversation. Guys, let's. Let's get to mailbag. Let me see which one. No Cliff today. We'll see him back soon. Um, Mr. Cliff. Mr. Cliff. Okay, shut up. Shut up, bro. Shut up. Because one, we know whenever you say that that means you love him to death. But two, Cliff was always the guy. Cliff was like his fave.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, Cliff's my guy.

[Logan Murdoch]

Anyways. Okay, this is from Sam. Hey, guys. Big fan of the show. Been listening since you guys started a few years back. Show's been great from the start. Thank you. But it got even better when Howard motherfucking Beck was added on. And you guys get me through my commute to work at least twice a week. Keep up the great work. Appreciate that. Sam, I wanted to ask about your all time injury hall of fame guys. By this I mean guys who could have been all time greats if it wasn't for their careers being derailed by injuries with Kris stops being traded to the Warriors. It made me think of how brilliant he is when he plays. But unfortunately is that his career has not always been what many of Us thought it was going to be early on because of the injuries. If I had a list in the starting five, mine would be Derrick Rose at the one, Grant Hill at the two, Tracy McGrady at the three, Bill Walton at the four, and Chris Staus Borzingis at the five. Thank you guys. Have a great weekend. Thank you, Sam.

[Howard Beck]

That's tough.

[Logan Murdoch]

That's a good question.

[Howard Beck]

Thank you, Sam.

[Raja Bell]

I like that.

[Logan Murdoch]

I like that.

[Raja Bell]

I like the D. Rose. I would. Let me just add to two. Probably move granted there. Would you guys consider T. Max did his career. I mean, he had a phenomenal career.

[Logan Murdoch]

Was it derailed in Houston? It was curtailed at the end, but I don't think it was defined by injuries necessarily. But like towards the end in Houston, he definitely was curtailed by injuries. I think it was a knee thing.

[Howard Beck]

And then they had that, I think too back.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah.

[Raja Bell]

Well, let me throw in like an honorable mention for the two spot. If we got G. Hill, because G. Hill was. That's a. Yeah, a real one. Brandon Roy.

[Logan Murdoch]

That was.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah, that was one of the first ones I thought of. Brandon Roy. Penny Hardaway belongs on this list for sure. Penny was amazing.

[Logan Murdoch]

But.

[Howard Beck]

But injuries. Michael Red, his knees.

[Logan Murdoch]

Michael.

[Howard Beck]

I mean, Michael Red was still part of like a gold medal winning Olympic team and like. But. I mean, but curtailed. McGrady and Hill were two great additions. Porzingis was. That's a little bit of a force. Like, I don't know that I want to put him on a list with like three guys who are in the hall of Fame and the fourth, Derrick Rose, who might make the hall of Fame.

[Logan Murdoch]

But.

[Howard Beck]

But I get it. Good list from Sam. I was trying to think of other ones. Greg, Odin. There was a lot of different things that went wrong. But. But starting with his knees, like, he came in hurt, which was. Which was, you know, part of. Part of his story. And then a lot of other things went wrong for him. I wonder if Ben Simmons belongs on this list. Like, is. Is Ben Simmons out of the league now because of his back? Because of other things. I mean, because of a lack of drive, seemingly based on a lot of conversations I've had with people over the years who worked with him in Philly and Brooklyn. But Ben Simmons certainly, like, was the consensus number one pick and was, you know, defensive player of the year candidate and all, defensive team, and like, looked like he was going to be a generational superstar. People, like, were absolutely head over heels for him when he first came in. And then the other guy, I thought about of course, is Yao.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Howard Beck]

And like just, you know, great career, made the hall of Fame, but seemingly a lot of left. Had to leave a lot of years on the table because of. Of all of his. His injuries.

[Raja Bell]

Could you make the argument for Larry Bird too?

[Logan Murdoch]

You could, but. But he still had four chips though, right? Like he's, you know, like he's still.

[Raja Bell]

But I mean, just in terms of longevity, like.

[Logan Murdoch]

Right.

[Raja Bell]

He probably still had like.

[Logan Murdoch]

Sure.

[Howard Beck]

I think it's more about. I. I mean, if we're trying to get a sense of like what. Sam, like, it's what they could have been.

[Logan Murdoch]

Right? Like what they could have been. Should have. I got you. Yeah. Okay. Fair.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah.

[Logan Murdoch]

You somebody that we add to this list. Sean Livingston, number one pick in the 04 draft. He was like six, seven. Was like, was. We. We know of Sean Livingston as the role player, but that dude was cold. He was like magic, like 30.0 and he could shoot a little bit. But you know, he had the devastating knee injury and then just would bounced around the league and then got with the warriors and wound up being a. A great role player. I think he's one. What was another one that I. Gilbert Arenas, I think is another. Is another pick as well. Like, he had the off court stuff, but he was never right after that torn acl. And it was a combination of the knee injury and then the off the court gun stuff that. That kind of derailed his career. But Gilbert was a bad boy. Like if, you know, you know, he was cold in his time.

[Raja Bell]

Antonio McDyess.

[Howard Beck]

Oh, that's a good call. Yeah, yeah. Knees, I think. Right. That guy could jump out of the gym and he was awesome. But yeah, that's another good one.

[Logan Murdoch]

Okay, I got one more and then we'll get out of here. Okay. This is from. Thank you, Sam, for your question. Appreciate you, buddy. This is from Will Plata. I think that I'm getting the last name right. I hope I am. All right. NBA. He starts off. This is. I think the premise is good. The question is a little all over the place, but we're going to start here. NBA champions in the 2000s. Lakers, Bucks, Warriors, Nuggets, Celtics, Thunder. And this question is, will the 2020s end with a team of the decade? Warriors, Spurs, Lakers, Celtics, Team of the decades, I think The warriors, obviously, 2010s, Spurs. I don't know if they're a team of the decade just because they won maybe 2000 and tens, but they shared that with the Lakers. But they were. They won theirs in three different decades. So it's weird to call them a.

[Raja Bell]

Team of the decades.

[Logan Murdoch]

But the Bulls Obviously in the 90s, Celtics in the 80s put the Lakers in the 80s as well. But for the 2020s, there hasn't been a repeat winner. Just when the Thunder looked like they're going to win three of the next five, Wimby is acting like. So the question is, will the 2020s end with the clear team of the decade? If no, would this be a lasting trend for the NBA or just about. So I'll start off with this answer. This isn't unprecedented necessarily. Like in the 1970s, there were a lot of trade offs with NBA champions. I think the Sonics won a couple, the warriors won, the Lakers had gotten one in there, but it was just like a mismatch of different teams winning the title. I think the NBA wants this to be a lasting trend with the apron. I think this was the reason why they continued to make differences or make different changes to the cap and essentially making it a hard cap so we can disperse all the talent everywhere else. But OKC looks great. They have a young core. Basically what you need at this point is a young core and then trickle players around them and then they have all the picks. I think the Thunder are the closest team to having a chance at this and maybe the Celtics as well. I mean, if they can come back and bounce back next year and, you know, reel off a couple titles, they, they can do it as well. They're. We're still halfway through this. There's still, you know, the Nuggets can still, you know, maybe win a couple titles as well. We're in the middle, so we'll see. There's still chances for teams to be able to do it.

[Howard Beck]

Jason Tatum, rehab assignment with the G League team. He's coming back soon.

[Logan Murdoch]

I think he should not do that, bro.

[Howard Beck]

Discussion for another day.

[Logan Murdoch]

Not do that.

[Howard Beck]

I know that that's discussion for another day we'll revisit, but I, I certainly think that's a signal he's coming back. These are the teams to make the finals in the 2000s. And the reason I'm going to go away from just the champions, but the teams that made the Finals, I was like thinking about like, like the 90s Buffalo Bills, where it's like make whatever six Super Bowls. Like, like just, just be a team that like could define the decade by just being the best in your conference and getting there over and over and over again. Right? So like there's a possibility like the Heat have made two finals in the 2000 and twenties. And never underestimate Pat Riley in that. And that group, the Celtics have made two Finals. Everybody else has won each. But, you know, it's. It's all the other teams that won the championships. Right. But, like, the Suns made a Finals. Mavericks made a Finals. Pacers made a Finals. And so I'm thinking, like, we've got. Because we're going to start with 2020. We're going to only go through 2029. We've got four finals left for somebody to make their mark and try to, like, claim this title. Right? So, yeah, the Thunder are the likely ones. The Celtics are the other most likely, and they've already got it. You know, those are two teams that both have a championship under their belt, and the Celtics already have two finals under their belt. But, like, there's a possibility of a late Pistons push here, a late Knicks push, maybe. Although I think their window's a little shorter because of the age. And there's definitely the possibility of a Spurs push here. Right. Like, if the spurs, like, they're so far ahead of schedule, the possibility of them being able to leapfrog the Thunder or just, like, wrestle with them for the next four years about, you know, Western Conference supremacy. And the Nuggets can get back into this thing, too. Right. As long as Jokic is still Yokich, and he is. So, like, I think those are the teams, like, I've also got an eye on. But I. There's a pretty good chance, like, there's no guarantee the Thunder are going to win another one. There's a good chance we do exit the 2020s without a team of the decade, and it would be the first time since the 70s. But this is what the league wants. They engineered it this way. They. They love parity. Adam Silver loves parody. They've been trying to engineer the system this way through, like, the last three or four CBAs in a row, and they've got it. This is what they wanted.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah.

[Raja Bell]

Good answer, Howard. Don't have much to add. Your answer was really what I was going to say was what you just said, which is my answer to that would be probably not. I don't think there's going to be a defining team of the decade, and it's by design, so that.

[Logan Murdoch]

Well done. Yeah. Good job, everybody. For a league that has built itself on dynasties just legislated out.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah. I mean, look, the Thunder could do it. The Thunder, like, the talent is there. They've got all the youth and draft picks and Everything else to just keep this thing going, but it's like something always gets in the way, like there's injuries or somebody else's better a given year. Just whatever, you know, shit happens.

[Logan Murdoch]

I was gonna say, I watched them last night in la. Man, they look good. Jalen. Jalen Williams is hopefully this is a sign of things to come because he looked great last night.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah.

[Logan Murdoch]

See what happens. Okay. That has been another edition of Real Ones. We have a lot in store for you this week. Me and Howard and a special guest are going to be doing some shows out of Los Angeles. That we are. Don't give me that look, Roger. We love you and you are a Real one. And you are.

[Howard Beck]

Isaiah Stewart's joining the show. He's gonna have free time on his hands.

[Logan Murdoch]

So. Yeah, so got a couple shows that we're recording that are going to be dropping this week and early next week that we are going to record. So excited about that. Be on the lookout for that in your ringer NBA feed. All right, man. Love all the Real Ones, man. We'll see you guys. I'm on my way to la, so if I see you, man, tap in all my LA Real ones, tap in with Howard. Also, a reminder, me and Howard are going to be judging the G League Dunk Conference competition. Very, very exciting. Make sure you go check that out.

[Raja Bell]

Can I just say, if I was ever in a dunk competition, which I never would have been because I. I didn't have bounds like that and I looked over and saw you two jokers as the judges. What are we doing?

[Logan Murdoch]

You know, if you were in town, you could be right next to us.

[Howard Beck]

Yeah. If you knew how to get on a plane across the country, you know what I mean?

[Logan Murdoch]

All right.

[Howard Beck]

Anyways, well, we're on. We're like on the one year anniversary of getting Raja to get on a plane and join us in San Francisco. What a time. That was such a great time that he's not doing it again.

[Logan Murdoch]

It's fine. All right. Ruins [e-mail] rulesmailback.com we talk too much. All the shits. Talk to y' all soon. Bye.