Preseason Power Rankings, Part 3 | Group Chat

Summary

The Ringer NBA Show: Preseason Power Rankings, Part 3 | Group Chat

Date: October 6, 2025
Hosts: Justin Verrier, Wosny "Big Waz" Lambre, Rob Mahoney

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Overview

In this highly anticipated third installment of the 2025-26 NBA preseason Power Rankings, The Ringer NBA crew — Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Big Wos (Wosny Lambre) — gather in Los Angeles for an in-person "Group Chat" episode. Through a mixture of sharp analysis and banter, they delve into a range of teams ranked #16-20, beginning with some candid pre-show conversation, before digging deep into the Boston Celtics, Philadelphia 76ers, Miami Heat, Indiana Pacers, and Milwaukee Bucks. The hosts discuss significant roster changes, the "existential questions" facing each franchise, and project who could surprise, disappoint, or define the upcoming NBA season.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Tone: Pre-Show Banter & Vulnerability (01:00–08:00)

• The crew warms up with some personality-based questions ("Do you ever rehearse what you're going to say before a phone call?"), highlighting their chemistry and contrasting temperaments.
• Big Waz describes getting in the right "vibe" (05:51), while Rob is "all about efficiency" in communication (06:52).
  • Quote: “When I think about love and magazines... Elle magazine trying to teach us how to give a blowjob or something. Right. Like, this is a little bit different.” — Big Waz (02:25)
• The group jokes about their dynamic: “We are overprepared. That’s true.” — Justin Verrier (06:21)
• Segue into the NBA Power Rankings — “An annual tradition like none other.” — Justin Verrier (00:36)

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Boston Celtics (#20): Year of Transition (08:46–23:10)

Offseason Turmoil & Roster Reshuffling

• Celtics lose major contributors (Porzingis, Holiday) due to cap constraints, signaling a step back for the franchise.
• Jaylen Brown steps into a leading role amidst significant roster turnover and a Tatum injury; the team vibe has shifted.
• Big Waz voices skepticism, suggesting management has set lowered expectations:
  • Quote: “It took on the character of completely giving up on the season.” — Big Waz (10:41)
• The crew debates whether holdovers like Brown, White, and Missoula will allow a "tank", or if pride/experience will keep them competitive.

Existential Questions for the Celtics

• Is Jaylen Brown ready to be "the guy"?
• How will role players (Simons, Pritchard, Hauser, Boucher) fare with increased responsibility?
• Rob sees the floor as too high for a full collapse: "They're just not going to be as bad as the Utah Jazz and the Brooklyn Nets and the Charlotte Hornets..." (15:51)
• Quote: “Your management does not agree. They do not think you're the type of player that could have led them to respectability or else they wouldn't have treated the roster like this.” — Big Waz (16:34)

Notable Names & Role Players

• Chris Boucher and Luca Garza are pegged as "interesting flyer" frontcourt options.
• Debate over whether Simons should start or be a "Manu-style" sixth man (20:39).
• Sam Hauser receives praise as a glue guy who might stick through the rebuild.

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Philadelphia 76ers (#19): The Fun-Low Stakes Era? (23:59–37:15)

State of Flux & Uncertainty

• The Sixers’ fate hinges once again on Joel Embiid’s health — neither host is confident about his return.
• Roster has intriguing, offensive-leaning youth (Maxey, BJ Edgecombe, Grimes, McCain), plus Paul George as a wild card.
• Rob’s Take: "A Sixers team without Joel Embiid might still be better than the Heat." (25:58)
• Big Waz is skeptical of the "talent" Rob credits to the supporting cast.

Existential Question: Is No-Joel More Fun?

• Possible low-stakes, high-fun scenario in which Embiid never returns and the young core gets to run, similar to the liberating (if low payoff) finish to last year.

Notable Role Players

• Trendon Watford, Jabari Walker, and especially undrafted wing Justin Edwards, are pegged as "do a little of everything" utility guys (32:19).
• Extended Paul George discourse: can he transition to a "Derrick White"/glue guy role, or is he stuck between being a star and “wallpaper”? (34:20)

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Miami Heat (#18): Institutional Stability But a Low Ceiling? (37:15–49:55)

The Heat Culture vs. Talent Ceiling

• Heat are likened to the "Dion Waiters–James Johnson–Kelly Olynyk" era: solid, scrappy, but limited upside (37:48).
• Tyler Herro’s injury damps offensive firepower, though Norm Powell and Davion Mitchell offer some hope.
• Rob: "What is the upward mobility for the Heat?" (26:21)

Existential Questions

• Should the Heat consider a rebuild? Hosts agree it’s not in the franchise DNA, but suggest they may be “opportunistic” if the season sours.
• Bam Adebayo is debated — is he a “guy” or the “guy next to the guy”? (39:36)
  • Quote: “If Tyler Herro is your primary offensive option, I can tell you where you're going and it's absolutely nowhere.” — Rob Mahoney (42:40)
• Rookie and recent first-rounders discussed: Jakashunas, Khalil Ware, Jovic, Jaquez — hopes that at least one “pops.”

Notable Names

• Khalil Ware as a possible Bam-adjacent big: “The person I get most excited about... a version of the things when people like Rob were going crazy about Bam Adebayo.” — Big Waz (44:41)
• Miami’s tradition of squeezing value out of unknowns/undrafted European players continues (40:19).

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Indiana Pacers (#17): Life Without Haliburton (49:35–61:18)

The Finals Hangover & Pivotal Pivot

• Haliburton injury radically alters the outlook — the debate: do they bottom out, or hold the line with deep, versatile roster?
• Front office’s ill-timed pick swap trade spotlighted as unfortunate ("Incredibly weird timing... Pacers, you know." — Rob Mahoney 50:33)
• Rob and Waz spar over whether the Pacers can win 43-44 games or are more a 37-39 win “culture” team.

Existential Question: "Who Pops in the Gap Year?"

• Who steps up? Nembhard as starting PG “massively expanded” role, but can’t be everywhere as a defender.
• Siakam positioned as likely focal point; Matherin as a breakout candidate: “It's going to be cool to see him knowing that he's going to be more of a, you know, indie focal point...” — Big Waz (54:07)

Notable Names

• Center rotation (J. Huff, Isaiah Jackson, James Wiseman, Tony Bradley) described as precarious.
• Jairus Walker: "It literally has to be this time. He is going to get real rotation minutes as a backup wing. They're going to need him." — Rob Mahoney (60:10)
• TJ McConnell as a dark-horse Sixth Man candidate (61:00).

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Milwaukee Bucks (#16): The Giannis Pressure Cooker (61:18–end)

Giannis, Now and the Future

• The Bucks made a major shift by swapping aging pieces for Miles Turner to bolster Giannis’ resolve (“Come, please stay with us.” — Justin Verrier, 62:01)
• Rob and Waz debate on how much solo Giannis can prop up this roster in a shallow East. Rob argues he’s a guaranteed 40+ wins: “Throw some people out there with Giannis and I think you're gonna win.” — (63:00)

Existential Question: When Does Giannis Demand Out?

• The group places bets/predicts when a trade request comes:
  • Waz: “I think it's going to happen next off season. Yeah, for sure.” (63:59)
  • Rob: “If it does happen [in season]... January 24th.” (65:16)
  • All agree Giannis will try to hang on as long as he finds hope.
• Justin shares Giannis's quote on embracing pressure: “If I'm in an environment where there's no pressure and I don't think we can achieve something great. I don't want to be there. It doesn't make me happy as a person anymore.” — Giannis Antetokounmpo (66:31)

Notable Names & Depth Chart

• Bucks’ supporting cast includes Kuzma, Gary Harris, Amire Coffee (Rob: “He actually has upside overall.” 71:22), Gary Trent Jr., AJ Green, and Cole Anthony.
• Mild optimism about piecing together a playoff team, but doubts about meaningful advancement.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “This is a, like, figure it out kind of year for them.” — Rob Mahoney (10:07, on Celtics)
• “Your management does not agree...if they thought you could get to respectability, they wouldn’t have torn it down to the studs.” — Big Waz (16:34, Celtics)
• “A Sixers team without Joel Embiid might still be better than the Heat.” — Rob Mahoney (25:58)
• “If Tyler Herro is your primary offensive option, I can tell you where you’re going and it’s absolutely nowhere.” — Rob Mahoney (42:40)
• “They're a team that's going to be in the playoffs.” — Big Waz (70:28, Bucks)
• “If I'm in an environment where there's no pressure and I don't think we can achieve something great. I don't want to be there.” — Giannis Antetokounmpo via Justin Verrier (66:31)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Pre-show personality questions/banter: 01:00–08:14
• Boston Celtics Overview: 08:46–23:11
  • Porzingis/Hauser trade fallout — 12:04
  • Boston's "existential question" — 13:52
• Philadelphia 76ers Deep Dive: 23:59–37:15
  • Roster fun vs. high-stakes Embiid window — 28:33
  • Paul George role debate — 34:20
• Miami Heat Analysis: 37:15–49:55
  • Should Miami rebuild? — 41:10
  • Bam Adebayo’s “guy” status — 39:36
  • Heat draft picks/rookies — 43:21
• Indiana Pacers Post-Finals: 49:35–61:18
  • Finals hangover, pick trade lament — 50:24
  • Siakam/Matherin “pop” potential — 54:07
  • Center rotation woes — 57:01
  • Jairus Walker mention — 60:10
• Milwaukee Bucks & Giannis Future: 61:18–end
  • Giannis existential question/pool — 63:47
  • Giannis’s “pressure is the juice” quote — 66:31

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Tone & Language

The episode is marked by friendly ribbing, candid NBA expertise, and the seasoned tones of three analysts who balance passionate opinions with wry humor and self-awareness. The hosts smoothly merge serious analysis with personal reflections and offbeat jokes (“The action is the juice... The action is the smoothie, perhaps.” — Justin Verrier, 67:02), often referencing running pod in-jokes and internet memes—making it accessible yet densely insightful for both hardcore and casual fans.

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Useful for the Listener Who Missed the Show:

• Team strategies, player role changes, franchise philosophies, and existential crossroads for several key Eastern Conference teams are deftly unpacked.
• Notable quotes reveal internal narratives and external skepticism, offering context on management moves and player motivations.
• “Existential questions” section for each team highlight the stakes and unknowns heading into 2025-26.
• Hosts provide a throughline for each franchise’s “identity crisis” or transitional state, making the league’s broader landscape clear and compelling.

Transcript

[Justin Varior]

This episode is brought to you by Fox 1. Fox 1 is now live. You can stream all your Fox favorites together in one place. From the MLB postseason to NFL and Fox to big Noon Saturday starring Rob.

[Rob Mahoney]

Stone with FOX one, you get it all live.

[Justin Varior]

Start your seven day free trial today. Offers are subject to change. Go to Fox one for complete terms and conditions. FOX one streaming now.

[Big Waz]

Foreign.

[Justin Varior]

Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varior and joining me live in person in Los Angeles where it is hot as Mordor in the end of September for whatever reason. Big Waz, Rob Mahoney. We are here for part three. Part three of the preseason NBA Power rankings. An annual tradition like none other. Doing it in person, but doing it a little earlier than we typically do.

[Rob Mahoney]

Here we are. I'm surprised you're leading with Mount Doom. We're just going straight for the volcanic core. That really the true source of the piping hot takes, if we're being honest.

[Justin Varior]

That's true. We haven't gotten to the one ring yet or the teams that are in competition for it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not as.

[Big Waz]

I really don't know what y' all are talking about. Y' all might as well be speaking Mandarin.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, elvish in this case. But you know what? Because we are pre taping, we cannot have our timely news oriented banter. I have proposed venturing into The New York Times's 36 Questions that Lead to love. This seemed to confuse you was the premise of what we're doing with these questions.

[Big Waz]

Yeah. Because the first time we did this, you talk about questions that lead to love, then you immediately ask, have you ever contemplated your death? It's got pretty dark what that means. I'm like, oh, okay. This must be a different kind of love.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, first of all, I didn't write the list. Don't blame me.

[Big Waz]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

My favorite part about this whole exercise, just to interrupt briefly, is that we're doing this almost as like a little bit of a placeholder in case there is news in order to put at the top of these podcasts.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Justin Varior]

So it's possible that you listening at home don't get any of this and this is specifically for us, but they.

[Rob Mahoney]

Would benefit from our long term building of bonds and growing of intimacy as friends and podcasters together. Which is what this is about. Which is why it's okay to venture into some serious stuff. Why is it?

[Big Waz]

Oh, it's more than okay. It's just, you know, when I think about love and magazines, it's like, you know, Elle magazine trying to teach us how to Give a blowjob or something. Right. Like, this is a little bit different.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not that kind of program.

[Justin Varior]

That one is not on the list.

[Rob Mahoney]

But you know what? We haven't gotten to the last segment yet, so we'll see what's ahead Today, our question before making a telephone call, do you ever rehearse what you're going to say? And if you do, why, Justin, what do you think? Do you ever rehearse what you're going to say on the phone?

[Justin Varior]

Well, okay. Is this speaking to someone that you love?

[Rob Mahoney]

Take it whichever direction you want.

[Justin Varior]

In general, yes. Especially if it's a work situation.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

I think you're a professional. Certain things. I think there are a lot of. I preemptively think through a lot of conversations that I have. Almost like, really as a rehearsal. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, you go full Nathan Field Day?

[Justin Varior]

A little bit. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

How does that make you feel? Like, why do you do that?

[Justin Varior]

Because I don't think I'm as nimble on my toes as I perhaps should be.

[Rob Mahoney]

You want the reps ahead of time?

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, I want to make sure what I say is what I want to say. And so I think through the possible scenarios.

[Rob Mahoney]

Do you feel like podcasting? I mean, it is a lot like podcasting. Do you feel like you're pretty accurate in predicting the twists and turns and detours of where these conversations?

[Justin Varior]

No, but it's that whole, like, journalism thing where, like, if you're prepared, you can be a little bit more nimble when things come at you.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm gonna guess Waz does not rehearse what he's gonna say on the phone.

[Big Waz]

No, I don't. Although the only time I can remember rehearsing a phone call is back when I was younger. Cause I'm a millennial. And like, you're in sixth grade and you want to talk to the girl that you like.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, sure.

[Big Waz]

When you go home, you have to call her house where one of her parents might pick up.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Big Waz]

So it's like, I want to sound polite, but also, this is not an emergency. So it's, like, cool if you don't put her on the phone either. Says like. I'm like, am I gonna say, hello, may I please speak to such and such? Am I gonna introduce myself first? Am I gonna, like, is this, hi, Mrs. Such and Such? Like, I did in sixth grade? I definitely did think about what I was gonna say in the event that a parent, especially if it was the father, which was always just like, that's the height of awkwardness. Calling a house As a young, you know, growing man to speak to some dude's daughter, like, so I did. Used to.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's also some woman's daughter, too. I'm sure it's, like, no less.

[Big Waz]

It's different with fathers, is it? Oh, my God, Rob, come on.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, it's still pretty awkward.

[Big Waz]

Like, you've seen bad boys, too. They never have the mom.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, sure. Of course I've seen. Who has not seen bad boys?

[Big Waz]

Everybody's seen it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Come on.

[Big Waz]

But they never have the mom wave a gun at the potential suitor. Right? It's always the dad. That's, like, the. The thing. You're right. So when I was younger, I would do that. When I was dating, I would definitely. It's not that I would want to prepare what I would say. I wanted to be in the right mood. Like, if I wanted to, like, be in a cheerful mood, I knew the conversation would end up there. If I wanted to be like, yo, I need to be laid back. I need to be like, you're the steward. You know what I mean? Like, whatever I say is gonna flow out of that mindset.

[Justin Varior]

You're setting the vibe.

[Big Waz]

Yes, within my own, like, spirit.

[Rob Mahoney]

What do you do to set the vibe for this podcast?

[Big Waz]

Absolutely nothing. Like, first of all, the thing about doing this show with the both of you guys, y' all are so different in temperament and approaches. Like, I just know y' all gonna each give me stuff to go off of. I don't need to prepare. Like, I know you guys are gonna come with stuff like the New York Times.

[Rob Mahoney]

Look, you're absolutely right.

[Justin Varior]

We are over prepared. That's true.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is how we balance each other out. Like, not only will I prepare for the work call that you're talking about, Justin, or the personal call that you're talking about. Wa. Like, if I'm calling the sanitation department, I'm like, what is the most concise way I can relay this message to get off this phone call as soon as possible? Like, I. I'm trying to get in and out. I'm not trying to small talk with it with anybody under any circumstances, if I can avoid it. And I'm also not trying to add any confusion to my very specific request.

[Justin Varior]

You're all about the efficiency.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm all about the efficiency.

[Big Waz]

Again, that's. That's. Again, even with the. It's the same thing. I've recently had a situation with a certain car rental company. It's not one of the big dogs. This is, like, a company that kind of does airbnb for cars.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Big Waz]

I got rear ended. On the way to that same wedding that we were talking about. Pre show, I got rear ended. So obviously it's like the guy's fault. Smashed into me on the Garden State Parkway. I submit my docs police report, all of that. Would you believe these people took my deposit and said it's my job to file a claim with that guy's insurance.

[Rob Mahoney]

What?

[Big Waz]

Because the damage on the car was below a certain threshold. So it's like we figured we'd just nip it off of you and you go figure it out with the insurance.

[Rob Mahoney]

Jesus.

[Big Waz]

So when I called these people, it was like, remain calm. You're gonna say everything that you need to say. But, like, don't actually behave in the way that you feel in the moment. So that's what happens with me. Like, I gotta. I just gotta get my energy and my spirit right, and I think the phone call is gonna go the way it needs to go.

[Rob Mahoney]

I appreciate you practicing restraint. It does take a little warming up to rein yourself in. In that way.

[Justin Varior]

No, I just. I just let it fly, man.

[Big Waz]

Yeah, very here. I could imagine. Very. You're on that call.

[Rob Mahoney]

There's no doubt. I am truthful.

[Justin Varior]

You know my truth, literally.

[Rob Mahoney]

There's no question that you do.

[Big Waz]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

Well, I thought that one was way more revealing than the death one, which got a little.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know. I learned a lot about both of you from that one. But look, the idea on a. In a dating sense is like, okay, we're. We're skipping past the like, oh, how many siblings do you have?

[Big Waz]

What do you color?

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's just. Let's just dig into it. And so I think we're digging into it.

[Justin Varior]

I wish I had this when I was out on the scene in Los Angeles.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's never too late.

[Big Waz]

Never ever.

[Justin Varior]

God damn right, my friends. All right, well, we want to have Woz say all of his hot, passionate opinions about our first team on the list here. We're talking about the Boston Celtics, who tied with the Blazers, the last team when you talked about in part two. Just to recap, as we typically do, we. We aggregated all the rankings. As you know, Isaiah Blakely broke the ties. He surprisingly, or not, picked the Celtics over the Blazers in this one. Isaiah, a passionate Boston Celtics fan. So I don't know if you guys have caught it, but Jaylen Brown, as he's going into the season where he's going to be a bigger part of the Celtics and everything that they do because of all the Various guys they got rid of. And also the injury to Jason Tatum. He's already taken the spotlight, so to speak. I don't know if you guys have caught this recently. Doing a lot of podcast appearances. He had, like, a little bit of a shtick where he would FaceTime all of his Boston Celtics teammates. None of them picked up, but then Jeff Teague FaceTime Jayson Tatum, he immediately picked up.

[Big Waz]

So fuck.

[Justin Varior]

Became a little bit of a thing here. Also, the day before we're recording this, he showed up at Bill Nye the Science Guy's Walk of Fame, Hollywood Walk of Fame.

[Rob Mahoney]

I did see this introduction.

[Big Waz]

Why?

[Justin Varior]

I don't know.

[Rob Mahoney]

I would love to know the connection.

[Justin Varior]

But he's doing a lot right now, and he's going to have to do a lot for the Boston Celtics this season.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's going to be doing a lot. Will it all be good? Probably not. I think a lot of these. A lot of the guys in this team are going to be miscast relative to what they should be on a great team. On the. The kinds of teams the Celtics have been. That's okay. This is a, like, figure it out kind of year for them. I don't think there's a lot of disillusion about the fact that they would be as good as a team with a healthy Jason Tatum or with Chris Apps Porzingis at full strength or Drew Holiday at full strength. They're just not that kind of team anymore. And I think that's okay. But we're all going to have to get used to that in the way we talk about them and think about them and. And their place within the Eastern Conference hierarchy.

[Big Waz]

Yeah. I just hated their off season. Not in the sense that we knew they had to shed salary. And to a certain extent, you understand the poor Zingis and, you know, even the Drew Holiday deal, like, I understand all of that stuff. It just, I don't know, it took on the. The character of a completely giving up on the season. And not that they were going to win the championship this season, but I think management, like, top down, has sort of set an expectation that there are no expectations for this season by nature of the kind of off season that they had. And that's why I'm lower on them than, say, Isaiah might be. And I think it's not just because the team is way less talented. It's like there's just a sort of reshuffling of what's most important.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Big Waz]

And if Jaylen Brown goes down, if he could come back in two Weeks. He's going to take four this year. Right. Like, that's what I think this type of season is going to be. And so that's why I'm just way more down on the Celtics than maybe some other people might be.

[Justin Varior]

You had them 24th in your rankings, 24 below the Pelicans, below the Kings. So you're betting that like things start.

[Big Waz]

To go and then they just completely embrace that.

[Justin Varior]

I could see it. The thing that was disappointing for me this offseason was after they dumped Porzingis, right. They got back George Niang and then they dumped him in a salary dump. They were dumping dumps.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, they, at a certain point, to me, based on the order of operations, it felt like they dumped Georgian Yang because they got Chris Boucher, who is better. George Nang. So there's kind of an order of operations.

[Big Waz]

Is a better George D. Is he.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Justin Varior]

Less reliable, I would say. I think, you know, I think you know what you're getting with Niang.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Someone who moves at the speed of a minivan and will get played off the floor because he can't guard anybody. Well, I don't think played off a white floor, Rob.

[Big Waz]

Are we talking about.

[Justin Varior]

We're talking about a Wednesday morning.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, but therein lies the problem. Like Chris Boucher. I, I hear you. Not the most rock steady player in the world, but holds up a little bit defensively, has some range in terms of his ability to alter shots, has a similar stretch. Not as good of a shooter, but a similar concept in terms of where he fits into what they do.

[Big Waz]

He's a shooter.

[Rob Mahoney]

Chris Boucher. Yeah, I think he's a little bit of a shooter.

[Big Waz]

Okay. I just think that was a money move and not a we want to still be respectable move. Like the idea that Jalen Brown, Peyton Pritchard, Derrick White are the foundation for like automatic respectability. And again, that takes no injuries into account. I just, I just don't see that. I really think they're one six week stretch, four week stretch. Again, the type of stretch that probably, if Tatum is here and they're still chasing championships, only ends up being three and a half gets stretched to six weeks. That's going to be happening all season long. That's why they were my 24 frank team.

[Justin Varior]

I think this brings us to our existential question is which of the title holdovers, namely Brown, White, Missoula, are going to let them punt on the season. I think Brown first and foremost is the type of, let's call him headstrong character who is unwilling to really go along with the plane in most cases. There's a history there in Boston that has bred that probably. But is the type of guy who I think would want to see this as his opportunity to shine, not only because there had been some stuff in years past where overlooked for Team USA for Derrick White, but also, you know, he's been kind of diminished in the pecking order. Everyone kind of looks at Jason Tatum as kind of the guy. They try to sell them as a duo. But is it really that much? I could see him being like, this is my opportunity, but how much will that matter? Is there enough between him and White and just the remnants of the days gone by? You got the Hausers, you got the Baylor Shiremans perhaps.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sure.

[Justin Varior]

Is there enough there to basically force whatever plans the Celtics have about tanking and getting a juicy draft pick? Being like, no, we're not doing that.

[Rob Mahoney]

I just don't think the draft pick is going to be juicy enough. Like I just don't think they're going to get into top five odds kind of territory. I think they're going to be a little too good. And some of that is Derek White and Jalen Brown. Some of it, look admittedly is a good outcome for this season is if two or three of these guys who are either being elevated or are flyers who are being brought in have good productive seasons where they take a step forward, that's a positive result. I also just think there's enough here that it they're just not going to be as bad as the Utah Jazz and the Brooklyn Nets and the Charlotte Hornets. Like the bottom is so low on those other teams and this is a well coached team with good professional players who have a lot of playoff experience and who know just how to run basic functional offense and defense. Yes, their center rotation is completely remodeled and a bit of a liability with all due respect to Nimish K. But like they have a lot to figure out. But there's also just a lot of pillars here that I kind of inherently trust.

[Big Waz]

I love Derrick White just as next as the next just as much as the next NBA blogger. Um, I don't think he is your traditional third best player so to speak in the sense that he can just easily like you know when D. Wade would take a game off during the Heatles era, Chris Bosh could come in and do the D. Wade role. Derrick White is not coming in and doing a Tatum role.

[Rob Mahoney]

I would also say Chris Bosh is not a typical third best player on a team either. Sure.

[Big Waz]

That's fair. That's fair. I'm just saying, like, they're, they're not going to be that good.

[Justin Varior]

White's more of a connection.

[Big Waz]

Yes. And fully healthy.

[Justin Varior]

Yes.

[Big Waz]

Right. And to go back to Jaylen Brown, I love what he's doing in the sense that I want the guy that I gave $300 million to, to assume that mantle. Right. To be like, yeah, we're still going to win this season. We're still going to be competitive, blah, blah, blah. However, again, and I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here. Your management does not agree. They do not think you're the type of player that could have led them to respectability or else they wouldn't have treated the roster like this. They wouldn't have tore it down to the studs in the way that they did. Like, let's just play devil's advocate. Let's just say it was Brown who went down for the whole year last playoffs.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Big Waz]

Do they treat this season this way?

[Justin Varior]

That's a good question.

[Big Waz]

Absolutely not. They don't.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think they do. I hear everything you're saying. And like, spiritually, I agree that this is a, like, we're going, we're just going to take a step back kind of motioning and season from the Celtics. From a management perspective, would you. I know you feel you're down on that idea, but are you up on Jaylen Brown to a degree where you would steer into it? Like, would you believe in a Jaylen Brown Celtics team where you would be adding pieces?

[Big Waz]

I think there's a middle ground of not deluding yourself into thinking Jaylen Brown could like, turn this into something incredible and accepting. Like, look, why are we spending $450 on a roster that has no chance of winning a championship? I understand that they could have shed salary, but I think like the degree to which they did it was like some new ownership shit where it's like, yo, I just put billions down. Let me do the savings where I can.

[Justin Varior]

But what if they just like Josh Manat, you know, why not?

[Rob Mahoney]

Why not? But yes, I'm going to say this not to carry water for the Celtics. There's plenty of other people who can do that. Jrue Holiday did not have an amazing season.

[Justin Varior]

No.

[Rob Mahoney]

Chris Haps Porzingis did not have an amazing season. There are also two guys who I would not necessarily want on a shorthanded team to be stretched out with minutes and roll and usage. And so the idea of we're going to take a hard look at our, at what our finances look like and say that this is the year we're going to compensate. Like we're going to concede some of this stuff so that we can hopefully kind of reset the luxury tax clock a little bit that we can get out from under some of this financial burden that we can bring in Anthony Simons on a short term deal and say like, is this a guy who can be part of our team or can he at least help us get up shots in the meantime? I, I think this is the middle ground. Honestly. I think he's the closest thing you're going to get.

[Justin Varior]

They're reasonable decisions in a vacuum.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Justin Varior]

And so yes, I can see why they'd make them independent of who it is that is going to be leading the team this season. But question with Brown, last season Shay Gilders Alexander led the league in field goal attempts at 21.8, which is actually not that many. Does Brown beat that this year?

[Rob Mahoney]

He might, I think. Especially because he's not going to get to the line the way that Shay does. Right. So it's like the field goal attempts are going to be super high.

[Big Waz]

Yeah. And if they're still playing Missoula ball, they're going to have a lot of possessions. He's going to be encouraged to just chuck.

[Justin Varior]

Yep.

[Big Waz]

And I do want to say, like I'd love to be proven wrong, like for the Celtics to be a respectable team this year for the entire year. I would love for them to be competitive. That's more competitive teams we get to watch.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Big Waz]

I just, I just feel spiritually they've leaned into the idea that they don't want to be.

[Justin Varior]

Luka led the league the year before that at 23.6. I think that's in play too.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think that's in play.

[Justin Varior]

I wouldn't be surprised if he's putting up like 25 shots, especially if he.

[Rob Mahoney]

Wants to be that player. Like, if that is an important thing, do Jaylen Brown and I think we've been led to believe that it is. And let's find out if that's true because yeah, Derek White is going to scale up a little bit in usage, but not that much. Ultimately it's going to be a Jalen Brown and Anthony Simons, a Peyton Pritchard kind of question. As far as who is taking a ton of shots.

[Justin Varior]

Well, that brings us to naming some guys. I assume Prichard starts. I guess there's a question of whether Simon starts with them or supplants him in the Starting lineup. But I.

[Rob Mahoney]

So you're thinking by default Simon's as a six man?

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, and I ultimately think that's his best role on a good team. I've always said that he's probably best suited as sort of a Manu type where he's like an overqualified sixth man. But if you need to start them, you need to finish with them. That makes sense. It sounds like though that they want to give Pritchard the opportunity to at least be the starting point guard. See what they have in it. I would assume based on just track record, he's a veteran. He's established himself there. Missoula tends to overreward those sorts of guys. He will get first crack at it. But. So I'm. I'm guessing it's going to be Pritchard, Brown, White to start with, then maybe.

[Rob Mahoney]

Keda and then I think Kata seems like the. Has the inside track on the job.

[Justin Varior]

Hauser.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it could be Hauser.

[Big Waz]

And House is playing power forward.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean kind of, you know, one of the two. They don't have the best power forward options. Luca Garza, my friend Luca Garza will get his shot. Absolutely will get his shot. I think Sam Houser has proven to be the kind of player and like you could see this in the. In the deal he got as well where he's just good to have around. And I would not be totally shocked if the next great Celtics team, he is the fifth starter on that team when that time comes.

[Justin Varior]

Not.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not because he's incredibly versatile, but because he does some very concentrated things well, including shoot the hell out of the ball. And he's not targetable on defense in the way that a lot of shooters are. I could see him just, again, just kind of hanging around being a part of this thing. And I think something to remember is whatever the Celtics become, yeah, they're probably still going to play some version of Missoula ball, but they're going to look very different. They're. They're not going to be as roundly balanced as the Celtics have been. They're not going to be able to afford necessarily a holiday or. Or a Porzingis in the future. They're going to have to. Have to do with a different sort of model. And that model might be some of the role players look a little bit more like Sam Houser than they do Jrue Holiday.

[Justin Varior]

I always love when an organization, especially one that's been successful, has a down year, has a dip. Some injuries. The warriors went through this and they get to really just bring in guys you could tell that they've always liked, but they haven't had the opportunity to do so. The warriors had some interesting guys. Other organizations have cycled through, maybe some guys in the fringes or in the G League and brought them up, developed them that way. The Celtics are just like retreads of four teams, and a lot of their guys are, I would say, not encouraging in the long term. So we got Chris Boucher, we got Luca Garza, we got Josh Minot. Uh, I guess you could throw Simons in there, although he was really just like salary in order to make the holiday trade. Like, I don't feel great about a lot of these guys, I think.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, they're kind of two categories. Simons, I think is more than just salary because I think they do just need somebody who's going to shoot. They do just need somebody who's going to get them up. And he's a better option than trying to do that with the mid level or something like that. So I. I get the thinking. There's Boucher. To me, like the frontcourt situation overall, pretty dangerous, pretty bad, pretty dicey. NKDA is going to have to be good. And even if he is, I don't know that it's going to be enough. Like, is he going to be a starting caliber center in the league for a long time? I honestly don't know. And if it's not him, I think you're looking at Xavier Tillman minutes. I think you're looking at Boucher at the five, which is not his best position.

[Big Waz]

Looking at Xavier Tillman, Well, I mean.

[Justin Varior]

But still in the G League, I.

[Rob Mahoney]

Think he's out of the. I think he's out of. Out of the league right now.

[Justin Varior]

I saw him trying on fireman helmets the other day.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Justin Varior]

I don't know.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sure. That's the thing he could do. Luca Garza, I think could also play minutes at the 5. Yeah, I. Luka Garza is one of those guys who like, per minute has always like gotten buckets. The wolves tried to stretch him out to see if he could shoot. He can't really shoot or at least hasn't yet. He's much more of like an energy big. Like an energy mobile big. Who will get buckets on the rumbling. Like kind of rolls to the rim and offensive rebounds. Exactly. That kind of stuff. That's okay. I'm a little more interested in Josh. My. Not at this point.

[Big Waz]

Of course you are.

[Rob Mahoney]

In part, he's like actually young, like 22 years old. Like Actually, Young actually has some promise. In particular, I think who he could be as a defender and a shot blocker on the wing or kind of swooping in is exciting. I don't know what he can do in the half court. Offensively, he doesn't have like a lot of very tangible skill yet, which is not a reassuring thing to hear. But turning defense into offense, he can be really good. If they want to up their pace, if they're going to still be in flow, if they're going to play Derrick White basketball, then I think Josh Minot kind of fits into the. The formula of that.

[Justin Varior]

All right, number 19 on our list. A bit of a controversy here as we're going through this. So we originally did our ballots and the Philadelphia 76ers came out as our number 19 team. But before we recorded, Tyler Herro ends up being hurt, he'll miss the start of the season. At least that's where we're being told as of now, as we're recording this, and I think there's some debate of whether or not we want to put the Sixers here or the Heat, where the team currently slotted in at number 18. You would probably advocate for the Sixers being higher.

[Rob Mahoney]

I definitely would.

[Justin Varior]

I would say the Sixers fall into one of two categories, similar to what Waz was saying about the Celtics. It's like you either believe that they're going to be healthy and thus they'll probably be a pretty good team, or you're just not buying that and they'll ultimately be probably around where they were last year. I think it's an either or situation as opposed to, like, I don't think they're just going to be okay.

[Big Waz]

Before you get into why you think the Sixers are good, Rob, when is Joel Embiid coming back?

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know.

[Big Waz]

And for the record, coming back this.

[Rob Mahoney]

Year, I do not want to be painted into the corner that says that they're going to stay healthy, because I simply don't believe it. I don't buy it. Here's the thing. A Sixers team without Joel Embiid might still be better than the Heat. Like, this is still a really talented team with a lot of interesting players on it. Joel takes them to a whole different level.

[Big Waz]

Talented team.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think they're pretty talented.

[Justin Varior]

Still pretty young and offensive leaning.

[Big Waz]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

But yeah, like, there'd be. They'd be dramatically different. Like, anytime you miss an MVP caliber, creator and defender, your whole team changes. I just look at that Miami roster and I'm like, What is the upward mobility for the Heat? Yes, they're going to be professional. The floor is going to be a little higher than teams like the Sixers because we know when the bottom drops out on Philly, it drops way, way out. We just saw it. Horrible to watch, horrible to experience, terrible basketball. The Heat are not going to be that. But a good version of the Sixers is just so much better than a decent to good version of the Heat.

[Justin Varior]

We've also, we should mention we've seen some photos of Joel Embiid on a basketball court looking sort of slimmer. I don't know if he looks like just Zion Williamson, but I think the.

[Rob Mahoney]

2001 Sixers jersey is also a flattering cut.

[Justin Varior]

I fucking love that jersey. It's a good. We're old enough to where that jersey used to be, like, dated. And so they went back to the classic ones and now those look cool in comparison because we've seen the classic ones.

[Big Waz]

Yes. The thick shoulder. I was never a fan.

[Justin Varior]

The shimmering.

[Big Waz]

Yeah, thick shoulder. Sixers era, that was kind of gross to me. But I'm. I'm looking at the roster that Rob Mahoney just called so talented. And I'm. And I'm just.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's a. So talented. I said it's talented.

[Big Waz]

I get it. You love trending Watford.

[Rob Mahoney]

I do.

[Big Waz]

But, like, it's Kelly Oubre.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Big Waz]

Andre Drummond, Eric Gordon, who might have been the one that snitched on Embiid. Kyle Lowry. Like, you're talent.

[Rob Mahoney]

You're skipping Tyrese Maxey, you're skipping BJ Edgecombe, who they just drafted, who's a.

[Big Waz]

Rookie who's not going to be good.

[Rob Mahoney]

But as explosive as hell. And I think and talented.

[Justin Varior]

Did we say Grimes?

[Rob Mahoney]

Quentin Grimes? Who? We'll see the latest reporting. As of recording. We don't know in what capacity he will be back, if he will be back. He's currently a restricted free agent. Jared McCain, who's coming back from injury, was awesome in his time last year. So, like, they have a backcourt and a perimeter rotation that is interesting and fun and potentially explosive. That's what I'm talking about. And Paul George, I don't know what. Whatever you want to expect of Paul George.

[Justin Varior]

Well, I think was. And I agree that we should keep the Sixers at 19.

[Rob Mahoney]

Fine.

[Justin Varior]

At least for now. But I think this is a good segue into our existential question, which is like, is this team actually more fun if Joel Embiid just like never comes back? If he just doesn't exist because you Kind of laid out the case right for there. You could be young and fun. You could and like move up and down the court. Like, look what you had at the end of last season. Just free of all the garbage that you went through in order to get there. It's like, yes, it was very low stakes basketball.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Justin Varior]

But I think that's what a Sixers fan wants right now because they've tried to be on the elite level for so long and tried so hard, we should mention, gone through just a river of shit in order to just have a team that's able to compete. I think just low stakes, fun basketball is exactly what they need in their lives.

[Rob Mahoney]

So you think what we saw from the Sixers at the end of last season is a good scenario?

[Justin Varior]

I think with better players in that sort of format. Yeah. Because I think between Maxey, let's say Grimes penciling in.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

And Edgecombe, and then maybe Paul George as four, that. That's kind of fun.

[Big Waz]

I. I think maxi at the 1, Paul George playing consistently and basically being the de facto four, and then, you know, the Grimes and the McCain, like, as their guards. Again, I don't see a small forward in there anywhere, but whatever. I get that as fun, but they're not going to win games consistently. No, they're just not. And the Joel thing, like, I don't know how you read that ESPN story from the summer. I forget the brother's name. Who wrote it. He did an incredible profile of Joel Embiid. Please forgive me. Um, I don't see how there's any optimism about Joel and this team after reading that. Like, just the idea that nobody can even say what the actual issue is with the knee, how to make it better, what the expectation should be. And then you consider all the baggage that came before. And I think so long as Joel's presence is looming around the team, I don't know how you build something positive out of. Out of that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I think it's really hard to.

[Big Waz]

The older I get, I'm just a bigger juju guy. I think that's just.

[Justin Varior]

I've always said that about you.

[Big Waz]

Big juju guy. Big juju guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

But this is kind of becoming the theme of this pod is the juju. And this, I think, is what separates teams in this range, which have some good things going for them, but maybe not enough juju to elevate into the next class and maybe like a little too much talent to be in the dregs of the league. The Sixers are living there, unfortunately.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, well, Speaking of the bad juju, can you guys name the opening day lineup last year for the Philadelphia 76ers?

[Rob Mahoney]

Remember who was hurt at that time?

[Big Waz]

Did Maxi even play opening day?

[Justin Varior]

Maxi play.

[Rob Mahoney]

So we got Maxi. Yeah. And B. Did not.

[Justin Varior]

He did not.

[Big Waz]

Paul George did not.

[Justin Varior]

He did.

[Rob Mahoney]

Uber did.

[Justin Varior]

Uber did. Yep.

[Rob Mahoney]

So we got two. Eric. I want to say Eric Gordon did.

[Justin Varior]

Eric Gordon was your starting two guard.

[Rob Mahoney]

Started Ubre. I mean, Drummond, I would think.

[Justin Varior]

Yup.

[Big Waz]

Gordon Drummond.

[Justin Varior]

One more. He's no longer with the team. No.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, that's a Good guess though.

[Justin Varior]

K.J. martin.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Big Waz]

Wow. My God.

[Rob Mahoney]

Currently not with any team.

[Justin Varior]

So Maxi Gordon, Ubere Martin Drummond. Well, the starters on opening day for the Philadelphia 76ers on ESPN. We watched it over there in the studio. We were like, oh, let's go start of the season. And that's what happened.

[Rob Mahoney]

Guess what? Onward and upward.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know the bar is that low based on last season.

[Justin Varior]

Right. Then any other guys we need to name here? Unfortunately, it's a lot of the same guys from last year, minus Yabuseli plus. Plus Trendon Watford.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I think Trendon Watford and Jabari Walker both are like good utility forwards as far as like just kind of plug in depending on the matchup kinds of guys. But also Justin Edwards, who I thought was one of the great stories for them last season, undrafted into a two way into a real NBA contract, all by being a wing who just like does a little bit of everything. Not going to be perfect. Sops up good quality minutes, like, can give you stuff that you need plugging and playing in various lineups. I would think there's still a place for him. Even with all these guys back. Like, yes, McCain and Edgecombe are going to pop and demand minutes and demand touches and demand opportunity. But also, as Woz was saying, like, there's not a lot of small forward depth here and Edwards can play up a little bit. We've already seen it. And so between him and Ubere, sort of holding down that spot, or I guess maybe Paul George in some lineups if you really want to go in that direction. I think Edwards still has an opportunity with this team. I think he's proven to be a good NBA player.

[Justin Varior]

Is Paul George's podcast back? Have we gotten?

[Rob Mahoney]

Would you like it back?

[Justin Varior]

No, I don't listen to it. I actually don't care.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I thought you were missing, like, you're subscribed and you're like, where are these Fs?

[Big Waz]

I mean, and this is something that I've said Already like the it's hard to have a good player active player podcast.

[Justin Varior]

Yep.

[Big Waz]

Because he, they stopped because it was, it was, it was ugly. Like for him to be doing his media side job while the team is in disarray and he specifically isn't playing.

[Justin Varior]

That well, complaining about playing center and then firing up the mics afterward.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, it's not great.

[Justin Varior]

He doesn't get the league like we do.

[Big Waz]

Exactly.

[Justin Varior]

There's a couple guys in some seats.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, here's a question about Paul, like, what is reasonable to expect from him this season? You know, he's. He has not been able to stay healthy. I thought last year tilted the balance from, oh, like subtle, you know, subtle contributions across the board, connecting plays, making like the little, the little things that matter kinds of plays and contributions. He went from that into just like being wallpaper in a lot of those games. What do you think he's going to be this year? What can we expect him to be?

[Justin Varior]

He should be more like Derrick White for this team. I thought when they signed him he was going to be more of a connector, allow maxi and BE to be the focal points and he would just fall in line in between pop when he needed to in crunch time, be more of a defender type because they really didn't have much of a wing defense there. And then let Caleb Martin, who was used to be on this team, do all the dirty work and he would be able to sit back, be old, but still be talented and give them exactly what they needed. He could still do that, but it's just a lot more younger players around him. Maybe he has to do a little bit more fostering, especially if Embiid isn't.

[Big Waz]

Around like Paul George. When you see these like young players, they get asked like who their favorite guy is, who they looked up to. He comes up all the time. And I think there's a valid reason for it because his skill set is so vast and diverse. Like theoretically he should be able to scale up on defense, you know, size up and be like, all right, tonight I'm guarding the four. I'm rebounding the hell out of everything. I'm setting hard screenshots, that kind of thing. Other nights, being able to give you some ball handling, obviously the shooting is always there, some one on one stuff depending on the matchup. I think like, realistically, if he's not attacking a smaller guy, I don't think he's a one on one threat at all anymore besides just using his size, getting space. But I think there would have to be like A structure for him to deploy all of this stuff. Like, do we think the Sixers have conceived of Paul George as this Swiss army knife, almost like an Andre Gudala in Golden State kind of figure? I like. Does Paul George see himself that way?

[Justin Varior]

It's a lot of dirty work, too.

[Big Waz]

Yes.

[Justin Varior]

On the defensive end. I don't know if he's capable of that.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's just not that level of defender. I mean, Andre Iguodala on those teams, for one, by not shooting and not creating as much, could maximize what he could be defensively.

[Big Waz]

Exactly.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think Paul George can be that guy anymore. I do agree with you. Like, he is a role model for so many young players in the league. And I think a lot of it is because of everything you said was the versatility, but also the fluidity. Like, he had such a beautiful, aesthetically pleasing game and shot. Some of that is still there. Some of it is stunted by declining athleticism.

[Big Waz]

He's still got a handle.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, he's still got a handle.

[Big Waz]

Great.

[Rob Mahoney]

Absolutely. Like, and that's how he creates advantages, is like, some guys create advantages by being. Having burst speed, speed. Some guys by being herky jerky. Paul George is by being smooth and connected, and he still has some of that. And this is one of those areas where Justin, you. When you're talking about, like, is this a more fun team without Joel Embiid? The most fun version of Paul George is playing next to Joel Embiid because he get. And the most fun version of Tyrese Maxey, I think, is playing next to Joel Embiid. Like, his ability to take some of the pressure off these guys where they can lean into what it is they do do well, that unlocks the best parts of their games.

[Justin Varior]

Or you could just see VJ Edgecombe just dunk and run.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I love that, too.

[Justin Varior]

I think that would be cool.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

All right, let's move along to number 18 on our list. It's the Miami Heat. I like Woz, believe in the institution. I just think there's too much of a backbone, too much of a guts of a good organization spo drawing things up. The defense will probably be there that I could see them over exceeding perhaps modest expectations. The question, though, was, Rob, if you're down on them to start with, without heroes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

Assume this lingers. Do you think there's a case to be made to go the opposite way, start selling play for the future?

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think they have that in them, like, constitutionally as an organization.

[Justin Varior]

But if you're the consultant brought in.

[Rob Mahoney]

I would advocate. I would have advocated that to begin with. Like I just don't see a lot in this team that's worth leaning into as far as the. The bones of it. And in fact I think they, they remind me in good and bad ways at this point of the like Dion Wader's, James Johnson, Kelly O Linick Heat a little bit. That is a team that way overachieved, like found itself, found its rhythm. Overachieved. I don't know if this group is going to do that but they have the sort of like suicide squad cast off quality to how everything has come together. That may work. I kind of think will not.

[Big Waz]

Yeah, I, I mean to me why I don't. I'm not completely sour even after the, the Tyler Herro stuff is cuz they did get Norm Powell and he did just show like again regular season. In the playoffs it was a different story that he could shoulder a bigger burden offensively. We saw him do that when Kawhi was down. I think he could do that with this team. And I just really loved what Davion Mitchell did at the end of the season and in the playoffs. Like earned himself a nice little check and just became the quintessential spo Miami Heat kind of guy. Like just in the right spot every single time making timely buckets and you know, Bam is Bam. He's a disappointment. Let's face it. He is.

[Rob Mahoney]

He is like multi time all star, like incredibly accomplished player, been to the NBA Finals, member of Team usa, seems to be thriving in his personal and professional lives. I don't know.

[Big Waz]

Seems all right in our profession. Like nobody will say a bad thing about Bam. Out of body and he'll go like, you know, 70 games in a row, scoring 13. Like you can't count on him to do anything more than what he's shown offensively.

[Justin Varior]

He's just not the guy.

[Big Waz]

He's done. We're done with that combo.

[Justin Varior]

He's just not the guy. He's the guy next to the guy.

[Big Waz]

Exactly.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's a good. That can be still a good life.

[Big Waz]

Yeah, no, it is. But if he weren't like, you know, I think Miami's fortunes the last few seasons would be, you know, a lot different than they have been. But like in terms of what they can do in the regular season with SP and obviously they always find some scrap heap G league always unearthing something different. And then you know, of course Khalil Ware.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah. Do you think Vladislav golden will Be the next guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

I do. Look, my antenna do perk up when I see that the Heat have brought in a bunch of, like, undrafted 25 year olds who've just been, like, kicking around Europe for a little while.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know what? Like, they do find these guys. They absolutely do.

[Justin Varior]

I would split the baby between what you guys are saying where it's like, yes, I don't think the Heat will go into the season being like, we need to tear this down to the studs. But I think they will be opportunistic because you have Andrew Wiggins, a guy who I think most teams wouldn't draw up as their number one option of, like, getting in a. Like, if you want to trade for someone, he's the guy on our board. But then you hear the murmurs where it's like, oh, Lakers might want to take a little bit of step forward. Maybe they need, like, a wing player, an established guy. Like, I would be like, oh, what do you think about Andrew Wiggins? He's, like, established champion for the NBA Finals. He played so well for a couple months. And plus the fact that Norm Powell is an expiring contract, like, do you want to be paying him his next deal, or is he best off going elsewhere? So you have the. The guts in order to do whatever you want. I assume they go through the start of the season, see how it goes, but I wouldn't be surprised if they lean over at a certain point.

[Big Waz]

The Heat, they just. They've declined the option.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, they don't like that. That's the only thing any other team. I agree with you. This one doesn't seem to want to do that.

[Justin Varior]

But I also think they're hitting their head on a pretty low ceiling with this organization, and you have to start wondering where the next move is, because they're so captured at this point with the guys that they bring back with hero and bam. Like, how do you get the next superstar? They weren't even really in the derby for, like, a Kevin Durant.

[Rob Mahoney]

No.

[Justin Varior]

You could say, like, oh, Durant's older. But you could also argue, like, they're not on the same timeline, because they don't really have a timeline. I don't know where. Well, they're gonna hit.

[Big Waz]

Godfather's gonna get Giannis. Everybody knows every next superstar that becomes available. Everybody knows that. I. I don't know. I, like, I tend to agree with you. I think they should have, you know, strongly considered the rebuild path, like, way before we even got here. But I think their idea is just like, look, man, we could do. We can execute our next Jimmy Butler deal while being this kind of team.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And they do have a track record to think that that's possible.

[Big Waz]

There's enough of a proceed two times with Jimmy Butler.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's all they need. And look, there's the two compounding big problems. Everything we're saying about Bam, which I disagree with some of the characterization, but ultimately, like, he is not a first option player and leader in score. That's not who he is by game and type.

[Justin Varior]

Change of owl. He's a bum.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is he?

[Big Waz]

Is he? Does he change your team fortunes?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes. Yes, absolutely.

[Big Waz]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

If he's your second or third best player. Absolutely.

[Justin Varior]

He's a great second player.

[Rob Mahoney]

If Tyler Herro is your primary offensive option, I can tell you where you're going and it's absolutely nowhere. And that's coming off of the best season of his career by far. And it's still so clear that he cannot be that guy.

[Justin Varior]

Well, kind of compounding all of this is our existential question. Look at that fucking segue. Which of the Heat's recent first round picks is going to have the best career? And now I thought it was prudent of the Heat to build a little bit through the draft because they had hit on supplementary players for those two NBA Finals runs. The Heroes, the Bams, those are guys they unearthed from the middle of the first round of the draft. And so they went back to that. Well, unfortunately you're left with a lot of guys who are just okay for the most part.

[Rob Mahoney]

Even okay might be kind to some of them.

[Justin Varior]

So Jakashunas coming in this draft fell a little bit. Of course the heat of the team to pick him up. Khlo Ware, Jovic Haquez. Yeah, I think we were all high on these guys at various points.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Justin Varior]

I look back on them, I'm like, how many of these guys are actually going to be around for the long haul? How many are these guys starters, let alone core pieces?

[Rob Mahoney]

I would say there's two guys at this point who look like they could be real deal NBA starters for a considerable portion of their careers. Khloe Ware is one of them. It's also a little spacey in a way that makes it hard to define what his game and future is going to be. I also am like kind of buying the Yaka Jonas hype.

[Justin Varior]

Oh, wow.

[Rob Mahoney]

I. I think, look, I mean Playmake, especially playmaking guards and wings, like the vision, the creativity, all that stuff is like so clearly there. I also think, and this might be where your belief in him kind of ebbs and flows. Did not shoot an incredible percentage from 3 at Illinois. But the shot, he looks like a guy who should shoot a high percentage. Like the feet he gets under, like his feet under him quickly. The shot is like really compact.

[Big Waz]

Looks like a guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, not. That's not what I mean. I mean, if you watch his shot, I believe that is better than a 32% three point shooter. And if you're a 32% three point shooter and a good playmaker for a team that's going to give you opportunities to make plays, like, I can see how he fits into the Heat mold.

[Big Waz]

Yeah, I mean, Khaleel Ware is like, for me, the person I get most excited about because it is a version of the things when people like Rob were going crazy about Bam Adebayo. It's like he's shown flashes of being a version of that. A little ball handling, a little passing, incredible in transition, a little defense, just like an ability to play next to so many kinds of players because of the variety of the skill set. So he's the guy that gets me most excited because it feels like he's a plug and play. You know, whether it's the four, whether it's the five, whether it's perimeter, whether it's a, you know, a sort of pick and roll, vertical spacing kind of guy. Like, yeah, he's definitely the person I get most excited about.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just to put all that in context, if Khalil Ware turns into a Bama to biocaliber player, that is a 99th percentile outcome for him. Like very nearly the best case scenario.

[Justin Varior]

Well, what's particularly interesting about him is his pairing with Bam because they haven't had the ability to play big with the two of them alongside each other. Now that forces Bam to be able to step outside and hit some goddamn shots, which he hasn't typically been able to do. But if they do figure it out, where both of them can do that, that's a pretty dangerous look for them and something that they haven't had in the past, which is just size and overwhelming size. And it gives you an identity to the team that we're looking for. It makes Hero not as important to be a superstar every single game out there. You could be a little bit more varied and that's more of like the Heat typical approach here. And so that's the case for where the case against them is. He is a little whiteside ish in terms of like a personality.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

And that's scary. Because they've done that before and that did not work.

[Big Waz]

Is that his reputation? He's.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think it's. I don't think it's white side levels pretty extreme.

[Justin Varior]

My side was an extreme version.

[Rob Mahoney]

Whiteside was like leading the league in blocks and no one wanted him on their team. Like, we're not there, but there is a quality of like, is this guy's attention to detail and professional focus up to the level of being an incredibly high level player? No one really knows yet. 90th percentile maybe so. But like, look, the two bigs thing is absolutely something that the Heat should continue to investigate and kick the tires on and understand more fully if it's going to work or not. I don't know if it is. Like, maybe ultimately they end up playing a little smaller than that. You should do it. This is the kind of season and the kind of team where having a variety of looks can help you catch some teams by surprise or off balance when you don't have the talent to just overwhelm them. I also think though, having those two guys out there together with Hero encourages some of Tyler Hero's worst instincts as a player. Like the spacing because neither of those bigs is like a knockdown shooter is compromised enough that then Tyler Herro is settling for his 18 footer bullshit and not his get all the way to the rim bullshit, which is actually quite good. When he does it. It.

[Justin Varior]

What if it's a Davian Mitchell 18 footer, would you prefer that? Because that's what's going to happen for at least a month or so.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean I look the norm Powell1 I, I'm totally fine with.

[Justin Varior]

It's a little bit better.

[Rob Mahoney]

And Davion Mitchell, like I actually here's the difference is I trust Davion Mitchell to kind of run offense as a point versus Tyler Hero runs offense as a two guard running pick and roll. Like it. It looks and feels very different. And him driving your offense with two bigs out there I think can get a little stodgy.

[Justin Varior]

See, as we're going through this exercise, we're just naming a lot of guys with very high floors. There's just a lot of those we didn't even mention. Simone Fontechio you should have just named.

[Big Waz]

Off the top, started the pod with him.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, it's just like there's, there's a lot of pretty good.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Justin Varior]

And that's going to. If we're talking about the Sixers is a team of extremes. This is a team that I know is going to be at least solid in.

[Big Waz]

In relation to that. Like, can Terry Rozier ever become a normal contributor ever again? Is he just cooked forever?

[Rob Mahoney]

It's unclear if he's going to be a part of this team. Yeah.

[Big Waz]

And we didn't mention Jaime Hawkez once, who was the darling of NBA Twitter.

[Rob Mahoney]

His rookie year and barely Nikola Jovic as well, who is may start.

[Big Waz]

Honestly, Jovic could actually play.

[Rob Mahoney]

He can play. Hawkes is tough, really hit the skids. It's kind of bizarre because again, a player who seems so resourceful and then everything kind of just like it felt like empty calories all of a sudden.

[Justin Varior]

What about Vladislav golden real guy, by the way?

[Rob Mahoney]

Now you're just flexing on us. They did bring in, we should say precious Achua on non guaranteed deal.

[Justin Varior]

Oh, you can always go home.

[Rob Mahoney]

You can always go home again. Even when your first stint at home was not so great. But he has since found himself as a raptor, as a nick coming back full circle. I like the depth for them because once you get beyond, especially if you're going to start BAM&K wear together, you you're going to want another actual rotation quality center to pad out some minutes.

[Justin Varior]

Well, since we're talking about teams that need to find some center help, let's talk about the Indiana Pacers, number 17 on our list. Yes. Another Eastern Conference team doing a lot of that on this show here. Obviously a different season than we expected a couple months ago. Just an incredible NBA Finals run that I'm still like grasping still.

[Big Waz]

Really?

[Justin Varior]

Yeah. Hal Burton expected to be out the entire season. And so it really is a stress test for the depth that they've built around him and what these guys can do as individual players as opposed to a guy that he is activating himself. And so I will say this just as a jumping off point, not to keep bagging on the New Orleans Pelicans, but we, we talked about how bad their draft day trade was. I think not as bad, but like definitely in in the conversation is their trade during the finals where they traded their 2025. The Pacers did. They traded their 2025 pick, which is 23rd at the time, to the Pelicans for the rights to their next year's pick. So this coming year and then five days later, Terry Salliburton got injured and so they have the rights to their draft pick this year if they wanted to tank.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Justin Varior]

Because the Pelicans were just like, we need the 23rd pick in the draft.

[Rob Mahoney]

You don't think That's a good process. I mean, look, it was.

[Big Waz]

It was decent process.

[Rob Mahoney]

Incredibly weird timing, admittedly, Pacers, you know.

[Big Waz]

They look like a NBA Finals contender.

[Justin Varior]

I get it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Big Waz]

But that is rough. Brutal.

[Rob Mahoney]

Very, very brutal. And also from a Pelicans perspective, like, does this need to happen right this second? Like, does this have to happen right now?

[Big Waz]

Well, when you're a new regime, you kind of want to put your.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's how you put your stamp on things.

[Big Waz]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

You make a trade for a draft pick during the NBA Finals, really announce your presence.

[Justin Varior]

And I think they use that trade in order to trade up in order to get.

[Rob Mahoney]

Congratulations, Dairy Queen.

[Justin Varior]

They could probably have the top two picks in next year's draft, but instead got their Queen. So enjoy that.

[Big Waz]

See, that's where I disagree. I. I think there's no version of the Pacers that just bottoms out this year.

[Justin Varior]

That would be the case against.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think they will bot him out, but I. We have him as the 17th best team in the league. I do think this is like a smidge high.

[Justin Varior]

Interesting. See, I was going through the rosters and I'm just like, there's too much here in order for them to.

[Rob Mahoney]

There's a lot of good players.

[Big Waz]

Yeah, he don't. This guy. Still don't respect Pascal Siakam, huh?

[Rob Mahoney]

You think I don't respect Pascal?

[Big Waz]

I just wanted to R you up really quickly. I just think, to me, what they showed in the Finals is not just. I think for a lot of people, especially like quote unquote, casual watchers, it's like, okay, Halliburton is elite. He's one of our great players. By definition, you lose a great player like that, it's going to be tough. But I think more than anything, what the Pacers showed during their playoff run is that they can play multiple kinds of ways. They have several styles of play. And yes, they were highly successful with the speed ball of Halliburton. The pace, pace, pace, the, you know, quick ball movement. But when they didn't have that, particularly when he would just. It's not like he was playing 46 minutes a game.

[Rob Mahoney]

No.

[Big Waz]

When he would go to the bench, they're just like, yeah, Mathrie, go to the rack. You know, like Baconnell, go to the basket. Pascal isolate on these guys, like, they had different ways of generating quality offense. And I think they're going to guard the shit out of people, too.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think they are going to guard the shit out of people. I think where I get stuck is, look, Rick Carlisle. Rick Carlisle is one of the best in the business at compensating when there's a man down, when there's guys out, when there's guys suspended, like, go through his history. He does an incredible job with exactly this thing. That said, I think they will be a winning team in culture. Will they be a winning team by record, is this going to be a winning basketball team? I think it's probably more likely that they're in the, like, 37 to 39 win range.

[Justin Varior]

Well, in the east, maybe that gets.

[Rob Mahoney]

You in the plan. Maybe that's enough. But, like, does it make you the 17th best team in the NBA? I honestly, it just feels like a little bit much for me.

[Justin Varior]

Well, I think this brings us to our existential question, which is who pops in Halliburton's gap year? And I do think if you're going through the candidates, you could go someone younger, like a Nemhard who's obviously being thrust into more of a showcase scenario. But I also think there's an opportunity for Siakam to have kind of the front and center sort of year that he's had at least once for the Raptors, but might have just a. A bit more. It might be a little bit more loud than it is in. In years past. And I look back on his 20, 22, 23 season, where he had his best year. 24 points, 8 rebounds, 6 assists. He played 37 minutes a game in that season, which I forget at times, like, why is he so impactful with the Pacers? It's like, oh, he doesn't have to play every goddamn minute. I do think there's a case for him to just step forward and be the orchestrator in a different way from Hal Burton, but have a similar effect.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Big Waz]

Yeah, I could see that too. Just becoming more. And I think in ways that he was already the kind of half court for focal point even when Halliburton was. Was in the lineup. It's like, all right, we have our sort of philosophy about offense, but, like, when things break down, it's Siakam that was usually kind of trying to fix things. So I could see that. And I think, you know, maybe it's wishful thinking on my part. I could see Benedict Matheran taking a step. Um, I think he found some stuff in the playoffs last year, and his confidence, which he's always had. I think one of his most defining characteristics as a young player is his confidence, which, you know, for young guys can materialize in ways that are just detrimental to the team with Shot selection. It's just like, bro, why are you taking long twos and contested as hell. I just, I just. You go into an off season knowing you're going to be called upon. I think that's a little bit different than just like, oh, I need a new contract and stuff like that. I want to play for the extension. I think it's going to be cool to see him knowing that he's going to be more of a, you know, indie focal point and then you know, nembard again like this team, like you said, very in the playoffs. Like I'm going to be thinking about this team probably until the day that I die. Like the things that these guys would do on both ends of the floor. Nembhard specifically defensively, just like, oh yeah, just a straight pit bull like prime Cal Lowry esque, what he was doing on both ends of the floor. So yeah, those two guys, to me I'm going to have a really enjoy watching them and I think they could win 40 something games. I don't.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it's possible.

[Big Waz]

I think they're. They could be a 43, 44 win team.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, let's take the nem hard part first because his role is going to be massively expanded. He's going to be the starting point guard of this team. A really good pick and roll player who's used to doing like 10 pick and rolls a game. And I think you could see even in the playoffs when he stretched out a little bit, you're seeing the diminishing returns in terms of his conditioning, in terms of what he can do defensively. They dramatically changed his matchups in the way he was guarding to compensate for all that workload. And so it's like for him to be the starting point guard, you then have to give up some of Andrew Nemhard as a primary go to defender. You're giving up some of what made him so special in the playoffs. That concerns me a little bit as far as like the overall success of the Pacers and kind of what he can be to them on that side of the floor. Especially with Miles Turner gone. Like I think there's all of these downstream effects of your playmaking is totally destabilized by not having Tyrese Halliburton on the team or at least on the floor. You're losing your starting center and replacing him with, let's be honest, a guy we like, presumably in Jay Huff.

[Justin Varior]

Don't you dare.

[Rob Mahoney]

Who was out of the Grizzlies rotation. Okay, not a regular, but a Good like yes. Good stretch option, decent finishing option, but not as versatile as Miles Turner.

[Justin Varior]

Can I counter to. If you were to describe Miles Turner, would you say a decent stretch option who will shot block some shots?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think all of that is true. The difference is what made Miles Turner the version of a center who could help a team get to the NBA Finals? Was he really settled in as like a mid range, short role, comfortable in the middle of the floor kind of player? I don't think we have any evidence to suggest that J. Huff is that guy and maybe he will be. Maybe that's the side of his game we haven't seen. But the center rotation overall is J. Huff is Isaiah Jackson, who's coming back from a devastating injury, which is tough for a player who's very reliant on energy and athleticism. James Wiseman, who I don't think is going to be a part of the rotation and Woz has given me the point. What's going on?

[Big Waz]

Tony Bradley.

[Rob Mahoney]

Bradley and Tony Bradley. I assume we'll get some minutes somewhere in that chain.

[Big Waz]

I mean he was getting minutes to the goddamn.

[Justin Varior]

Certainly was. There is a case where, where this team just has it. There's something. There's magic pixie dust and this thing just works.

[Rob Mahoney]

They got pixie dust for sure.

[Justin Varior]

Well, I also think part of it is can Nemhardt do something as simple as shoot as well as he did in the playoffs as opposed to what he does in the regular season? Because it's a completely different player and.

[Rob Mahoney]

If something he's never done before.

[Justin Varior]

If you have guys like Siakam setting him up.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Justin Varior]

Are there going to be easy shots for him to take advantage of that.

[Rob Mahoney]

The part of this that I think will pop as far as like the Haliburton void, I am thinking like if this is not Ben Matheran's moment, when is it like I think the combination of all that opportunity. Rick Carlisle already told Kaylin Cooper he's going to start at the two. Like they need him to absorb shots. And I think this team is going to have like a bit of a fuck it disposition as a result of their circumstances that will lead to him being more productive than he's ever been.

[Big Waz]

So the team that sticks out to me and I know it's a different NBA now, but it is the like D Roseless Bulls coming off of the MVP where it's like a lot of the. A lot of the identity they built during Derrick Rhodes MVP season and the second season where you know, they were pretty much just as good if not better. And then he got hurt in the playoffs against the Sixers, like when he went out, that stuff didn't change. Like the bench mob stuff, the like the defensive mentality, like the Pacers relentless pace and like just physicality and imposing their will on opponents. I don't think that's going to be gone from what they bring this regular season, which is why I'm just like really high on them.

[Justin Varior]

I think the defense is going to be better. So if they do more lean in that direction, have enough of the offense, could be a different type of team, but can still be reasonably successful.

[Rob Mahoney]

I just look at this front court and I get a little nervous. But about the defense, like about their ability to maintain like a high defensive standard.

[Justin Varior]

I think it depends on where you fall in terms of the injury recovery of Wiseman and Jackson. It's just like, are we sure that those guys are just completely going to be non entities?

[Rob Mahoney]

No, no. I think Isaiah Jackson will be an entity. But for him it's like, can you have the abandon that made him such an impactful player coming off of an injury like that?

[Justin Varior]

I just believe in Isaiah Jackson more than you do.

[Rob Mahoney]

That may be the case.

[Justin Varior]

Any other guys you want to mention here?

[Rob Mahoney]

What else we got.

[Justin Varior]

Off the roster?

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, oh. I mean, I'm just gonna keep saying it until it happens. It's Jairus Walker time.

[Justin Varior]

Oh, yeah. It literally is this.

[Rob Mahoney]

It literally has to be this time. He is going to get real rotation minutes as a backup wing. They're going to need him. They're going to need that. Like Aaron D. Smith cannot play every minute. As tempting as it is to try to do that.

[Big Waz]

Picking the draft, huh?

[Rob Mahoney]

They need him to be good.

[Justin Varior]

Are you a furpy guy?

[Rob Mahoney]

Fur fee.

[Justin Varior]

Fur fee.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Yeah. Johnny Furfy. I mean, I'm into it as like a summer league distraction, as a garbage time diversion. Is he a real NBA player? I don't know. I mean, he's got like some movement and some athleticism to him that is captivating. But I don't think he's going to be a rotation regular.

[Justin Varior]

Apparently he has a brother who plays at UConn. Might be better.

[Rob Mahoney]

Does he?

[Justin Varior]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

You can never have too many furphies.

[Justin Varior]

A greater furphy.

[Rob Mahoney]

I do think if you guys are right, if the Pacers are a good team, maybe even make the playoffs, the TJ McConnell for sixth man buzz is going to be incredibly loud and rightly so. Like his ability to maintain that pace, that culture, that style that you're talking about was. That'll be a really critical part of what makes them good.

[Justin Varior]

I will say we ended up putting them in our rankings around the same level, ultimately. 17, 18, 19. So the last team on our list, number 16, the Milwaukee Bucks, who are different. Question mark. They definitely have some live bodies and I think that's the approach. They basically chopped off all the players who couldn't give them minutes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

One of those players happened to be their second best player, who they are playing paying for the next five years. Unfortunately, in Damian Lillard got Miles Turner from the Indiana Pacers in order to save some version of this team in order to present to Giannis, like, come, please stay with us.

[Rob Mahoney]

It worked for now.

[Justin Varior]

Be okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

And it seems like Giannis is bought in. He's talking about how he's embracing this creator role. I think if he's incredible, they can only be so bad. But how good can they be? I think that's a completely different question.

[Big Waz]

I don't see it. I just don't see it. And I get it. Like, I can see a version of the team where Giannis averages 34. Whatever kills the usage. And we go back to, you know, just Giannis all day, every single day. I just look at the remaining parts of this team and I just do not see a quality even in this Eastern Conference team. Like what? Like what are they going to hang their hat on?

[Rob Mahoney]

Like Giannis.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Giannis is like, Giannis is a holiday team.

[Big Waz]

The coat or defense, the long legs.

[Justin Varior]

It'S all going on Giannis.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it's more offense than defense at this point.

[Big Waz]

Got you.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I think having Giannis on your team is a regular season offense, will you run into the wall in the playoffs? Of course, as we've seen, if you don't have enough high level kind of other options to play off of. But almost regardless of the supporting cast like Giannis on the team, it has been eight years since they've won fewer than 46 games. Doesn't matter who's healthy, doesn't matter who's out there. Dame, Drew, Chris Middleton, Brook Lopez, whatever. Bobby Portis. Throw some people out there with Giannis and I think you're gonna win. You're gonna be a winning team. You're gonna be 42 plus wins, 43 plus wins. I think that's a totally reasonable expectation for a player as good as him. Irrelevant of every other question you have with the roster.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, I think we all met out at the same sort of place, which is like, this is going to be fine for as long as Giannis wants to be engaged with this.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

Which brings us to our existential question, which we're going to do a little bit of a death of an ERA pool in which we pick the date right now of when Giannis ass out for a trade. I think we all assume it's going to come at some point.

[Big Waz]

I think it's going to happen next off season. Yeah, for sure.

[Justin Varior]

I think he's going to last the season. I agree with you.

[Big Waz]

He's going to last the season. And what he did, which is this is why, like, I think the Bucs thing was so insane. But like, whatever, maybe you do do it for the greatest player in the history of the franchise. But, like, he's going to have one year left on his deal and be able to leverage a trade to wherever the hell he wants next year. And I think the cold blooded thing for Horst and them to do would have been to move on from him this year so that they're dictating the terms of the deal, whereas next year is just they're going to get a crap deal for Giannis because he's going to be able to tell all of the potential suitors, I don't want to be with you, so don't even try to give anything of substance for me because I'm leaving your ass in a year. And that's where this ultimately ends up.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm tempted to agree. I mean, everything we've seen from Giannis is he is the guy who, like, he wants to find a reason to stay. He's trying to hang around. He wants to give the benefit of the doubt. I do think this is going to be an immensely frustrating season overall. Like, they will win games, but he's going to have to do so much that it's going to be very taxing if it does happen January 24th.

[Big Waz]

Oh, you think he's doing it this year?

[Rob Mahoney]

I said if it does happen. I think the most likely outcome is it's not this season, but if it does, I think he's. It's not going to be like 15 games into the year. It's going to be a more significant portion of the year. I'm looking at their schedule and they've got two home games against OKC in Denver in late January. I think he's going to see the Denver Nuggets and say, like, man, like, why can't I have a Cam Johnson? Like, like, what is it? What is it that's different about these situations and how come they got to remodel their thing and our big solution was Miles Turner.

[Justin Varior]

I think you're right, though. I think it's going to have to mount. Where there's so much evidence that Giannis can't look elsewhere or can't convince himself or somebody else can't convince him that there's still a shot here, because it looks like he's looking for any shred of doubt. And unfortunately, there still is one after they made the big old Miles Turner trade.

[Rob Mahoney]

Can I say I really respect that? Like, I respect the way that Giannis operates in this way. I know that there could be some discrepancy between, like, what he says publicly and what's going on behind the scenes. Like, that's all very.

[Big Waz]

A lot of discrepancies there.

[Rob Mahoney]

That. That's a real thing. That exists.

[Big Waz]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

But facts on the ground. He is stuck around. Like he has. He is so stuck around with this team through thick and thin, through the championship and the post title malaise, all of it.

[Justin Varior]

Can I give you a quote?

[Big Waz]

Sure.

[Justin Varior]

That he told Sport24 in Greece recently.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is this a. Is this an actual quote or a Google translation of a Greek quote?

[Justin Varior]

Unclear. The way it was presented was a quote. I like the challenge. I have realized that I like to live with the pressure. Is that good? Is it bad? I don't know. If I'm in an environment where there's no pressure and I don't think we can achieve something great. I don't want to be there. It doesn't make me happy as a person anymore. Which I believe in Greek is just. The action is the juice for Giannis.

[Big Waz]

Sure.

[Justin Varior]

The action is the smoothie. Perhaps.

[Big Waz]

Sure.

[Justin Varior]

I like this.

[Rob Mahoney]

I just like that this is what you tell yourself in the mirror every morning when you wake up to pod.

[Justin Varior]

You're like, I spent too much time prepping that.

[Rob Mahoney]

See, you were rehearsing it too much before.

[Big Waz]

The pod. Action is the smoothie.

[Justin Varior]

Smoothie juice. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

That is the product of a guy workshopping and workshopping a joke to the point that it becomes almost nonsensical.

[Justin Varior]

I should have took yes for an.

[Big Waz]

Answer to Rob's point about January. I just don't think Giannis has the stones to pull a Jimmy Butler. And, like, what do I mean by that? To make a trade, demand plane, and then show up to Milwaukee Bucks home arena in a Bucks jersey, be the bad guy. I don't. I don't think that's a Giannis move. That's why I think it's the off season.

[Justin Varior]

That's fair.

[Big Waz]

Where it's like all right, guys, this is done. Figure it out. Like, I'm not reporting to camp. If you try to slow roll this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, and so that's. That's why I think that's going to happen. I just, you know, again, he's going to say, like, look, I played this season. We're horrible. We have no feasible route to getting any better. What do you want from me, Milwaukee fans?

[Justin Varior]

Well, I think that's the one caveat. If you're going to counter, you're going to argue the counter, which is, do the Bucks keep digging the hole? Because they technically have control over their last two picks. 20, 31, 2032. And those are probably looking pretty damn good to any team that wants to trade a player on a sizable contract where it's like a pick and a swap from the Bucks that far out is, like, Giannis's son going to be drafted by that point. And so do you go out and say, like, a Michael Porter Jr. Or somebody else, and you trade for just any bit of help, is that enough to convince him to stay the rest of the season or even into next season?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think you'd have to be pretty sure it's a guy that he really is excited to play with and not just like, a guy who could plug in and be more than Kyle Kuzma. Like, the bar has to be higher.

[Justin Varior]

The bar is low at Turner, though. Like, Turner's a solid option.

[Rob Mahoney]

Turner. But, like, here's the thing. Turner is definitively an upgrade over 37 year old Brook Lopez, give or take whatever Brooks actual age is.

[Justin Varior]

Like, wants him to play more power forward.

[Rob Mahoney]

Exactly. And. And all due respect to Brooke and pouring one out for his tenure as a Buck, like, was a champion for a reason. Set the model for what the Bucks want out of a five. Next to Giannis, Miles Turner happens to be that. And that list of players is shorter than you think. As far as actual centers who will hit threes and can be reliable spacing options.

[Justin Varior]

Jay Huff.

[Rob Mahoney]

J. Huff could theoretically be among them.

[Justin Varior]

That is. Yeah, that is the case because they keep trying to convince Giannis to stay by giving him everything he wants.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Varior]

And they can keep doing that. But I think Wise is right. As an organization. How much can you do that before the guy is just like, you're bending over backwards and you're just not getting what you want?

[Big Waz]

Honestly, in the words of the Great Michael Porter Jr. It's tough. That's tough. That is tough.

[Rob Mahoney]

Here's the thing. All of these caveats we have now talked about 15 teams in the NBA. The remaining 15 teams you can count, go through the list. Ten of them are Western Conference teams. That means we are saying that the Bucks are probably a playoff team.

[Justin Varior]

Yes. We have them as six bets in the.

[Rob Mahoney]

If we are right again, give or take, they're going to be a playoff team right on the cusp of it. That's not nothing like that's. That might be enough to keep Giannis remotely satisfied.

[Big Waz]

They're going to be a playoff team in the same way the Atlanta Hawks were a playoff team team last year.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, there's again, there's levels to this.

[Big Waz]

Like there's. They're not a playoff team. Right? Like they're not Detroit last year.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, no, no.

[Big Waz]

You know, like, yeah, they lost in the first round, but they gave the Knicks everything they could handle. Hyper competitive. The point differential at the end of that series was crazy. They're not a playoff team. They're a team that's going to be in the playoffs.

[Justin Varior]

So you don't believe in Cole Anthony or Gary Harris as the saviors?

[Big Waz]

Man, I used to be a Gary Harris head at one point.

[Justin Varior]

Yeah, they have a mere coffee. You like that guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

I actually really do like a mere coffee.

[Big Waz]

I love a mere coffee.

[Justin Varior]

We're having a mere coffee conversation every two months.

[Rob Mahoney]

We really do. But of the players they brought in, he feels like the one that's most likely at non Miles Turner division is back. Thanasis is back. But like I could see Amir Coffee being a part of the rotation and giving them good minutes.

[Justin Varior]

He actually has upside.

[Rob Mahoney]

He actually has some upside overall. Like look, their shooting guard rotation is not awful like Gary Trent Jr. AJ Green. Those guys are good NBA players. A little streaky at times, especially on Gary Trent side of things. And if there is any reason for optimism, this is a team that has had to play without Damian Lillard quite a bit over the last couple years. Yeah, last year in particular they were a plus 4 net rating team without Dame on the floor. Like they can do that. And Ryan Rollins is like a good defender and effort, high effort player. Like run the point through Giannis, try to get the defense together. Hope that Kyle Kuzma is better than he was because the bar is.

[Big Waz]

Yeah, the bar through the floor.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, it is straight up in hell. And last we saw Kyle Kuzma, he was getting benched for Torian Prince in the playoffs. I think Doc will start him again because why not? And you hope for the best.

[Justin Varior]

Give him a shot.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's what they have to go for.

[Justin Varior]

It's really him or Prince.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, right.

[Justin Varior]

Or I guess, I mean, you could start.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, you could go Green and Trent together. I mean, who knows what they'll do with Kevin Porter Jr.

[Justin Varior]

I assume he'll start Kevin Porter Jr.

[Rob Mahoney]

See, I would start Rollins. I. I would lean into point Giannis and say let's get a defender on the floor, someone who's moving a little more without the ball. And we're going to lean into putting as otherwise as much spacing as you can between Turner and Green and. Or, sorry, Turner and Trent and hopefully Kuzma can hit some shots.

[Justin Varior]

I worry Porter's a little bit too duplicative off the bench. If you're going to put Cole Anthony in the sixth guard role, the six man guard role. So we'll see. But that's what you have to look forward to is what has been gets those bench minutes. So something to look forward to. Milwaukee. But that's it for part three of the preseason NBA power rankings were probably up to like what, five hours or something at this point? Got five more to go, so. So strap in here. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you Blakely. We will be back next time with part four.