Preseason Power Rankings, Part 4 | Group Chat

Summary

The Ringer NBA Show – Group Chat

Episode: Preseason Power Rankings, Part 4
Hosts: Justin Verrier (A), Wosny “Big Wos” Lambre (B), Rob Mahoney (C)
Date: October 9, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this lively and insight-packed episode of Group Chat, the trio continues their comprehensive preseason power rankings, breaking down NBA teams ranked 15 through 11. The conversation is a true blend of hoops nerdery and sharp banter, blending deep-dive analysis with existential questions about each roster’s trajectory. The episode highlights the impact of blockbuster moves, fascinating star dynamics, looming contract questions, positional logjams, and the “vibes” that could make or break a team’s season.

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Key Segments & Timestamps

• [00:00] Podcast banter and intros
• [05:22] Preseason Power Rankings Introduction
• [06:00] #15 Dallas Mavericks
• [20:06] #14 Memphis Grizzlies
• [32:51] #13 San Antonio Spurs
• [46:42] #12 Detroit Pistons
• [55:56] #11 Atlanta Hawks

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Detailed Team Breakdowns & Notable Moments

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Dallas Mavericks (#15)

(Segment begins at [05:22])

Main Takeaways

• Cooper Flagg Effect:
  The Mavericks improbably land the #1 pick, Cooper Flagg, reenergizing the franchise and altering both their present potential and future outlook.

  “It’s impossible to overstate how it has changed everything with the team. It has given them a future that they traded away.” – Rob (06:10)

• Flagg’s Year-One Expectations:
  The crew compares Flagg’s role to a rookie Blake Griffin or Jayson Tatum—being asked to shoulder unusually big responsibilities early, but with a high “floor” due to his mentality and two-way skill.
• Crowded Frontcourt:
  With Anthony Davis wanting more time at the four, plus extensions for both Daniel Gafford and PJ Washington, the Mavericks have a glut—forcing tricky decisions and likely trades.

  “PJ Washington in particular just feels like a prime trade candidate. He cannot be that important on a team that has Anthony Davis and Cooper Flagg on it.” – Rob (10:51)

• Point Guard Uncertainty:
  Kyrie Irving’s status is highly questionable, with D’Angelo Russell only a stopgap. The Mavs lack enough ball-handlers.
• ‘Twin Peaks’ Nickname:
  After Nico Harrison (GM) is spotted at Twin Peaks sports bar, they nickname the Davis-Lively frontcourt “The True Twin Peaks” in a rare moment of Mavs levity.

  “I would like to propose that we refer to the Anthony Davis-Derek Lively frontcourt as the True Twin Peaks.” – Rob (14:57)

Existential Question

• How does this frontcourt glut resolve—and will their size become an advantage or a problem before Kyrie returns?

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Memphis Grizzlies (#14)

(Segment begins at [20:06])

Main Takeaways

• Major Reset:
  The Grizzlies make the bold, rare choice to trade Desmond Bane, injecting uncertainty but aiming for higher future upside.

  “This team wasn’t going to take a next step because of something Desmond Bane did… it was going to be because of Ja Morant.” – Big Wos (22:06)

• Pressure on Ja Morant:
  All eyes on Ja to both step up and simply stay healthy. Past absences and uneven playoff results haunt this team:

  “The Grizzlies are like 9 and 18 in the playoffs during the Ja Morant era.” – Rob (24:10)

• Changing the Timeline:
  Jaren Jackson Jr.’s injury and extension, frontcourt injuries to Edie, Aldama's increased importance, and new coach Tama Cisolo add volatility and opportunity for role players.
• Plenty of Depth:
  Young wings/forwards abound, meaning not everyone can play—potential for further trades.
• Putting Up or Shutting Up:
  The roster, especially Ja, now must prove they’re true franchise cornerstones.

Existential Question

• Can you win a title with Ja Morant as your number one? Or even keep him on the floor long enough to find out?

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San Antonio Spurs (#13)

(Segment begins at [32:51])

Main Takeaways

• Wembanyama+Fox Partnership:
  Huge excitement over the potential pairing of Victor Wembanyama and De’Aaron Fox, but sample size is tiny and the pressure is high already.

  “We only got 120 minutes of it last year… but it already feels like it’s on the clock.” – Justin (35:57)

• Backcourt Logjam & Tumult:
  With Fox, rookie Dylan Harper (injured), Castle (defensive-minded, shot is a work in progress), and Carter Bryant all needing developmental reps—balancing the need to win now with developing the future is tricky.

  “It’s a powder keg of a situation… ultimately a good problem to have.” – Justin (38:19)

• Who Starts, Who Sits:
  Does Castle get the nod out of respect/achievement? Can Harper or Bryant leapfrog veterans?
• Wemby’s Role & Growth:
  All agree Wembanyama already warps games with his defense, but the hosts want to see even more rim-rolling and physical presence.

  “I want to see Wemby threatening the basket… if this guy is going to make defenses panic, it’s not because he’s dribbling 25 feet out and taking jump shots.” – Wos (44:00)

Existential Question

• Is the Fox–Wembanyama partnership for real—and how do the Spurs untangle their guard situation on the fly?

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Detroit Pistons (#12)

(Segment begins at [46:42])

Main Takeaways

• Continuity, Identity, and Grit:
  Most of last year’s young core returns, carrying forward an identity built on toughness (and frequent skirmishes).

  “I love this about them though. I love their edge, in part because it’s not a front—these guys are maniacs.” – Rob (51:01)

• The Cade Leap:
  Cade Cunningham’s improvement as a pick-and-roll scorer and transition threat, plus his budding chemistry with Duren and Thompson, could fuel a leap.

  “They have an elite guy at the point of attack. That’s what you need to be most excited about Detroit—Cade Cunningham.” – Wos (53:53)

• Managing the Young Wings:
  Questions about fit and development for Ron Holland (very young, big upside but jumper is a question), Ausar Thompson (elite defender), and Ivey (trying to claw back into a central role).
• Toughness as Identity:
  The team’s “maniac” competitive streak might be worth a few suspensions—but it’s authentic to what works for them.

Existential Question

• How will their gritty identity translate—and can Cade go from “potential star” to true franchise guy to lead a leap?

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Atlanta Hawks (#11)

(Segment begins at [55:56])

Main Takeaways

• The New Nerd-Chic Team:
  After years of being overlooked, the Hawks are now analytics darlings: deep, athletic, and filled with interesting skill sets, especially for defense.

  “It just works for him and it just works for the Hawks. Like, this roster, this construction, everything that they’ve brought in, I’m very excited about.” – Rob (56:56)

• Trey’s Essential Question:
  Is Trae Young more essential or expendable now that the Hawks are so well-rounded? Hosts agree his playmaking is irreplaceable but wonder if newfound depth gives them forgiveness for his defense.

  “I still think Trae is essential. What he does can’t be replicated anywhere else on the roster.” – Rob (61:53)

• Frontcourt Intrigue/Health:
  Porzingis, Jalen Johnson, Okongwu—can these talents play together and, more fundamentally, stay healthy?
• Rise of the Wings:
  Influx of defensive-minded wings like N. Alexander-Walker and Dyson Daniels (“It should be illegal to play them together.” – Rob, 64:29) changes the equation on both ends.
• Contract Looms Large:
  Trey’s contract status is an undercurrent throughout—would the Hawks really let him walk or not give a supermax?

Existential Question

• Does Trae Young prove himself indispensable for THIS version of the Hawks—or does the depth allow Atlanta to imagine moving on?
  [“What would change it… would be if Jalen Johnson and Zachary Reisha Shay completely elevate as playmakers. Maybe you can look at different types of guards.” – Rob (63:06)]

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Memorable Quotes

• On Cooper Flagg:
  “His floor as a rookie I think is quite high… by all accounts, the mentality you’re talking about, Justin—like a fucking killer. Just wants to get after people.” – Rob ([08:47])

• On Grizzlies reshuffle:
  “This team wasn’t going to take a next step because of something Desmond Bane did… it was going to be because of Ja Morant.” – Wos ([22:06])

• On Wemby’s progression:
  “I want to see Wemby threatening the basket… not dribbling 25 feet out and taking jump shots.” – Wos ([44:00])

• On Cade’s leap:
  “Cade Cunningham and an elite guy who makes all these other scrappy guys better. Actively.” – Wos ([53:51]), Rob ([53:58])

• On Hawks’ defensive wings:
  “It should be illegal to play Dyson Daniels and Nikhil Alexander-Walker together.” – Rob ([64:29])

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Summary Table: Existential Questions by Team

| Team | Existential Question Summed Up | |:----------:| --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | Mavericks | How do you resolve the frontcourt logjam, and is this season a prelude or pivot point? | | Grizzlies | Is Ja the guy—or even a reliably available guy—for a true title run? | | Spurs | Will Fox-Wemby be a real foundational duo, and can they untangle their guard rotation? | | Pistons | Can toughness and Cade’s ascension combine for a real leap—or will inexperience bite? | | Hawks | Is this the year Trae Young proves indispensable, or will the “depth era” change that? |

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Final Thoughts

This episode shines for both its tactical depth and its emotional, existential NBA questioning—a blend of fun, sharp skepticism, and real “inside the league” context. The hosts keep the energy high, riff, and challenge each other, always providing a grounded sense of what matters as fans eye the 2025-26 NBA season.

Next up: The top 10 in the power rankings—“If you followed us this long, God bless you.”

Transcript

[A]

Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varier and joining me for another edition of the preseason power rankings, Big Waz, Rob Mahoney. This is our fourth edition and things.

[B]

Are getting a little loopy.

[A]

We're in the afternoon time and things are just flowing right now.

[B]

I don't know where you're finding the energy. I'm just proud of you.

[A]

Yeah, I was explaining to you guys before we hit play here on this one. I'm more of a early late morning.

[B]

Sort of guy, which historically has been very untrue.

[A]

Yeah, I've transitioned to being more of a day person, but we're still in the in between zone. Not very early, but you catch me at 10am as we record the pod. I. I'm ready to go. You go. After that, I don't have as much excitement, much verve, much juice.

[C]

Are we going to be doing this next year and you're going to be a 4am Marky Mark kind of guy?

[A]

I would be lucky if we're still doing this.

[B]

I could see you being like the 2am Kobe system plan. Like I sleep three hours at a time, allegedly. And then I wake up and do stuff and then nap again. Like, I could see you kind of chopping up the day.

[A]

I think you're going to be a night owl. You know, once you lean into the Hollywood Mahoney lifestyle.

[B]

I'm already a night owl, just doing absolutely nothing. I'm just doom scrolling. I'm streaming. I'm just on my couch doing absolutely nothing.

[A]

I was getting on the elevator today at my hotel room and people come aboard and they're like talking about like whatever hip thing they're doing. And one of them is like, oh, well, we're doing a collab with like Jelly Roll, this UK company that's for kids. I was like, this is the most LA experience. I haven't had one of these in a while. And I thought to myself, when is Rob going to be that sort of person? Like, how long does it take before you're doing collabs with UK based companies? I guess I'm collabing with you every week.

[B]

This is what we do here. That's true. And in fact, we're deepening our collaboration. I would say we're starting these pods off by answering one of the New York Times 36 questions that lead to love. I'm getting to know you guys in ways I never imagined I could before. I'm very excited about it. Today's question. If a crystal ball could tell you the truth about Yourself, your life, the future, or anything else. What would you want to know? You get the answer to one question about anything that has happened or will happen. What would you like to know?

[A]

Will we be doing these podcasts next year?

[B]

That's what you.

[A]

Just. Just next year.

[C]

Just next year.

[B]

Here's the thing. I think there is some truth to what you're saying, because it's like if you find, if you ask anything too huge or too distant, it dramatically changes the way you live your life. If it's like next week, next month, next year gives you a little bit of information, I think that's a little more manageable on a. On a psychosis level, I think.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, in terms of the future, I'm not an overly pessimistic person. Like, whenever people are like, oh, such and such, this thing is going to crap, whatever. I'm like, it could be worse, you know. But like, now that I'm thinking about it, I definitely would ask about the future of the Mets and the Jets.

[B]

That's it.

[C]

Probably be it for me.

[A]

Like, it's probably not going to go well for you.

[C]

Is there any hope for either these teams? I think the Mets will be generally fine, but the jets just seem perpetually in a bad way. And so I'd probably ask about the Mets and the Jets.

[B]

But here's the thing. If you learned the jets will win the Super bowl in 2042, then during that season, isn't it like the drama is taken out of it because you.

[A]

Know they're going to win?

[C]

I would know and I wouldn't tell any jets fans and I would just wallow in the enjoyment of the experience knowing that this thing was going to pay off for me and all of my fellow.

[A]

It's like a back to the future.

[B]

Yes. Would.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Would you sports almanac it? Would you bet on that game knowing the result?

[C]

No, I'm not doing that. That's. That's when you screw up with the. With the. You know, with the actual prediction.

[B]

It's true.

[C]

Try to get greedy.

[B]

I think I would like to know at what point we need to go live underground. Like.

[A]

Like when. When paradise style. We have. When does the.

[B]

Well, when does the earth reach the climate that, like, I need to invest in Minneapolis real estate. That's what I want to know.

[A]

It's pretty soon. Have you been outside in Los Angeles at the end of September?

[B]

All look. All the more reason. This is good clarity. Thank you, Justin, my living crystal ball, for helping me in this matter.

[A]

Seriously. I would like to Know what Phase two JV looks like?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I think I'm getting into middle ages.

[B]

Can I ask you a question?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Are you not already in phase two?

[A]

You're. This is 1.0, basically.

[C]

Oh, I thought. I thought Portland was phase two.

[A]

That's probably true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Those are the early days.

[C]

We're starting phase two?

[A]

I think so, yeah. Until they force me to move from there.

[B]

Who is they? The powers that be.

[C]

Powers that be?

[B]

I mean, it could be anybody.

[A]

I know. Well, I wonder. Like, I. I feel like I have one good run of dating left in me.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

So I'm like, I'm prepping for it. Don't sell yourself short. No, it's just one more. And if it doesn't work out, we're going Monk.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

We're going full Wemby here. So I would like to know how long I have to prep in advance.

[B]

That's good to know.

[A]

Well, I'm already bored of the gym.

[B]

We will. We will reserve, you know, the Clippers for you when it's time to shave your head and go Monk. But in the meantime, enjoy yourself.

[A]

Yeah, I will. All right, Preseason power rankings, part four. Same as the past ones. We ranked some teams. Isaiah Blakely broke the ties. And this is our big old fat list. We're going to talk about each team in depth. Existential question, naming some guys or things. And we're going to start with number 15 here. We're onto the back nine of the NBA. The Dallas Mavericks, number 15. A little higher than we probably would have expected at the end of last season if we were doing this. But they landed improbably one Cooper flag, which I think we have to start with Rob, for your Dallas Mavericks, not mine, but your hometown team.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What? It's like a reasonable expectation of Flag in year one.

[B]

I mean, I think he's going to open things up for a lot of players around him. And like that. That in itself is so exciting. I think it is just to the. To what you described us and like, how improbable this was. It is impossible to overstate how it has changed everything with the team. It has given them a future that they traded away. It has given them in the present tense in terms of what we can expect in year one. Like, they didn't have any real, like playmaking or juice on the wing in that way. It was good players, but guys who probably don't have the ball in their hands a ton or more versatile defenders or spot up shooters. And in Flag, potentially one of their Best playmakers on the roster. A guy who's, you know, maybe not a point guard, but kind of a point forward or at least a facilitator in a way that they're going to need him to be and I think will be immensely valuable to their success this season.

[C]

Reasonable expectation.

[A]

What do you want to see from the guy?

[C]

I think it's reasonable to expect that he's going to contribute positively to the Dallas Mavericks bottom line this year.

[B]

The number one overall pick.

[C]

Yeah, but that doesn't always happen.

[B]

That's fair. That's fair.

[C]

You know, like, was Cade Cunningham some positive, you know, player his first year? I think some of that has to do with the surrounding talent, but, like, generally, we don't think of rookies as like, oh, shoot, when he goes to the bench, they're like, materially worse. Now, like, we don't generally get that. And I think that will be something that's different for Cooper Flag. But again, I think it is going to be buttressed by playing with AD and Gafford and lively and, like, I get it, it's a glut. But, like, there's never going to be incompetence in the front court, which means they could always play at a very high level defensively. And, yeah, it's just going to be a matter of him just being the sort of winning intangibles kind of guy that he's been and adding that with, like, solid contributions on offense, which is like, making his open jump shots.

[A]

I think about maybe if Blake Griffin had played his first year as opposed to getting the gap year for being injured. Yeah, he's not as physical as Blake, but he has the same mentality.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To really scrap and, like, not be afraid of contact. And obviously he's going to have the opportunity, as you mentioned, because with Kyrie out, there really aren't a lot of ball handlers. D' Angelo Russell has brought in basically to be the stopgap option, but you assume that's only going to last for so long. And even while he's there, Flag is going to get opportunities to put up numbers because otherwise a lot of big.

[B]

Men on this roster, a lot of big men. There's a lot of, like, glut, as was said, to sort out, like, who plays with whom and when, I think is just going to be a constant question for this team. But having Cooper, who, you know, as far as number one picks go, maybe I don't know if he has Blake Griffin's ceiling or not. Like, the best of Blake Griffin Was all NBA first team level player.

[C]

No, I don't think he'll be as good as Blake Griffin.

[B]

MVP ballot level player. Like we'll see with Cooper. But his floor as a rookie I think is quite high. And so that feel his ability to contribute, like how he matches up physically with NBA players and by all accounts the mentality that you're talking about, Justin like a fucking killer. Like just wants to get after people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And wants to win. And is uncompromising in those pursuits.

[A]

More well rounded than Blake. But this first season they're basically going to ask him to do more. And I wonder if that sets the tone for the rest of his career. Little Tatum in his game and obviously giving Tatum a lot to do from the jump. Obviously paid dividends down the road there. And so we'll see. It kind of brings us around to our existential question here, which is they've got all these front court players and they extended two of them in Daniel Gafford and PJ Washington this off season. They got to get rid of them. Some of them right.

[C]

I like. And because I'm not as convinced as others that Cooper Flag's permanent position is at the three, I feel like it feels so obvious that he's a four.

[B]

Does Anthony Davis know this?

[C]

That's what you know. I mean that's where we gotta get to. And maybe it becomes the kind of thing where they. They just straight up get rid of enough guys that forces the rotation to take the most ideal form. Yeah, I just, I just think they like they have to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Here's what I have down as nominal fours, either because that's their ideal position or the Mavs think that they should be playing that. Anthony Davis, as was mentioned, that's part of the reason I think the trade happened is he wanted to play more for Davis. PJ Washington, as you mentioned, got extended Cooper Flag. Caleb Martin more of a four than a three.

[B]

Probably. Probably so.

[A]

And I would say Klay Thompson defensively, probably better guarding, slower footed.

[B]

He's certainly not a two, but he's might be like technically the two.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, and we'll see what they do with Cooper defensively if he's up for chasing some of these quicker guys around, that would alleviate a lot of pressure. But PJ Washington in particular just feels like a prime trade candidate. He has been really important to the Mavs. He is just. He cannot be that important on a team that has Anthony Davis and Cooper Flag on it. Just. Just by definition.

[C]

And so when Luka was your primary guy that made perfect sense for him to get big minutes and he kind of especially at his best. He was just the perfect Luca compliment. But with this team where you're just dying for some level of space and oxygen, PJ Washington isn't the guy to provide that.

[A]

Well, there's almost two timelines here where it's what's best now versus what's best when Kyrie ultimately come.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Returns to. And so I do Wonder like actually ADPJ flag is your 5 through 3. Not bad with Kyrie and maybe Klay Thompson. But then it just gets into the whole problem of AD is a four for this team. You should be a five. Yeah.

[B]

I mean I think we should fully expect Derek Lively to start.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Daniel Gafford to spell him. I think Gafford, you know, despite that extension, is trade eligible. Basically immediate. I think is immediately trade eligible. He should also entice some teams if they want to go in that direction. I just, I get the play for d' Angelo Russell as that stop gap option while Kyrie is out there. Also, we should say no guarantees that Kyrie Irving plays this season or looks like Kyrie Irving this season. This is an. An older player with an extensive injury history coming off of a major injury. We'll see. I think should be the operating mode of the franchise. And if everything in the meantime revolves around the short list of players you want handling the ball. Being dlo, I guess Cooper Flag, who's a rookie and basically like Dante Exum, I guess is the third answer. That's just not enough handling in the modern NBA.

[C]

Jaden Ivy, can I interest you in Hardy? Excuse me? Hardy.

[A]

They wish.

[B]

Jaden Ivey. Jeez. Brandon Williams technically in the rotation. I mean Najee Marshall has done some like point forwarding for them. Yeah. But these are not the answers you want when you're talking about what ultimately is like a playoff caliber ish roster that's forming.

[A]

Right. I think the question is like is this size ever going to be an advantage before Kyrie comes aboard or is it going to be a disadvantage because of all the mess it provides?

[C]

I think early on it'll be kind of their only advantages going. It'll be a major one in terms of they can bludgeon you on the boards, they can protect the hell out of the paint and you know they can. Cause if you're not playing like two physical guys in your front court, you you're going to have some problems dealing with their size offensively. But you know, I think the best teams figure out how to deal with that and just force you to shoot.

[B]

Yeah. And.

[C]

Or create from the perimeter. And when your best option is a rookie who even if like you, you have the most flowery outlook on what he's going to be able to do in his career, it's not going to be this, like, perimeter, like destroyer of worlds. Like, that's just. That feels unrealistic to me that Cooper Flagg just kind of comes in and just becomes this guy that's like breaking people down off the dribble, making step backs, you know, pull up threes off of pick and rolls. Like that feels like a lot to ask for him, especially coming into his rookie season.

[A]

Yeah, I'm largely bored of the Nico Harrison jokes, but I think one that rings true in this case is like, there is a good team here. Is he the right guy to help find it? Because you could argue the extensions were just made in order to make those guys tradable. If that's the case, just retaining assets to figure it out later. That makes some sense because this year is probably going to be a bit of a gap year because of Kyrie's injury. And then maybe next year they've figured things out and hit the ground running. That would be the optimist case. But I think they've lost the benefit.

[B]

Of the doubt at this point. I know you're tired of the jokes. Could I propose in light of Nico Harrison getting accosted, slash confronted by a fan while dining with, I think his daughter at Twin Peaks over the off season.

[A]

Wow. Is it a hot spot?

[C]

No.

[B]

Are you not familiar with Twin Peaks?

[C]

Twin Peaks type of situation.

[B]

A Hooters type sports program.

[C]

That's what the Twin Peaks are.

[B]

I would like to. Educational program. I would like to propose that we refer to the Anthony Davis Derek Lively front court as the truth when Peaks. How do you feel about that? Are you willing?

[C]

Love that.

[A]

Oh, man. But I mean, is A.D. how long is he going to be around in order to reap the benefits of said nickname? Because he was dealing, what, with a detached retina this offseason. And that's the thing with A.D. these.

[B]

Injuries just come out of nowhere and.

[A]

It'S all of a sudden it's like he might not see again.

[B]

When he's out there. He's amazing. Like, you know, we are lodging some complaints and some concerns and there's some fit stuff they're going to have to figure out. But baseline, this is going to be a. I would think, a pretty good defensive team. Yeah. And one that is almost like Too talented to be a disaster on offense. They're not going to be, I wouldn't think, one of the bottom 10 offenses. They're going to be maybe more around, like, mediocre. And that ultimately is a reasonably successful formula. Yeah.

[A]

Just doesn't help that they play in the Western Conference. And I think based off of our results here, they would finish 10th. But I think you're right. There's just enough talent there. AD's Revenge Tour is probably going to be in the mix here. And how much does that trickle down to a guy like Flag is looking for any opportunity to mix it up? Seems like he's that type of guy.

[C]

Yeah. And the team from two years ago, the finals team, they made their hay just gobbling up everything in the paint and just forcing everything outside and just literally foreclosing on the idea that you would even score.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

In the paint. And I think they could build something really credible and fun around that concept again. Again, to me, it's just on offense, it's going to be like, j, Kid, you better get very creative.

[B]

Yeah. And that is what makes me a little bit nervous. I think Kid actually has shown some creativity in pulling certain levers at certain times. I think it's been one of his better qualities as a coach. With this team, though, in its current form, you can't play that much smaller. Like, you don't have the alternative options. You can play different forwards, different combinations of players. But then you have guys like Clay, who, if we're being honest, like, you could guard clay with a 4 if you wanted to. You could guard Clay with a big. In some matchups, like, he's not moving off the ball in the way that he used to. And so the Mavericks, by definition of who they put on the floor, I think give other teams a lot of options how. What they do with them. We'll have to see how. How they like to match up. But there's a little bit that makes me nervous about it.

[A]

You think Clay will be reinvigorated? My recent activities.

[B]

What activities are those?

[A]

He's getting around.

[C]

He's got new people in his life.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, he's doing different things on social. He's become a. Like a social media influencer, or at the very least, a content creator.

[A]

Oh, yeah. It's the opposite of having a kid where it's like, that could, like, perhaps make you a little bit more sleepy, a little more difficult to do things. Smite.

[C]

Yeah. Just the energy is, um. Klay is. I think Klay is what we've seen the last two years. It's a way more limited version of himself. I think the shooting will definitely be at a premium.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

On this team specifically. But as Rob said, like, he just doesn't move the way that he used to. So it's a little bit less threatening than what it was once, where it's like you keep your eye off of this guy for two seconds. He's darting into a spot for what becomes like he only needs less than a second to get a shot off. It's just a different proposition, though.

[A]

Any other guys? It really is a lot of the same guys.

[B]

It is a lot of the same guys. I mean, it's a fair bit of continuity. Again, they have a lot of good players, I think.

[C]

Is Ryan Nehard gonna make this team?

[B]

I don't know.

[C]

I liked him in. In summer league. He's like, very similar to his brother in the sense that he just knows how to play. He's just. I don't know, he just has a great feel for the game. I don't think he's as talented as his brother, obviously, but I thought he was fun in terms of not scared to impose his will and just not scared to find a shot. Like straight up. He was putting them things up.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

With Cooper flag on the floor. So, you know, I definitely. Because. Because they're so bereft of guard talent. I wonder if he could get in, you know, especially early on in the season.

[B]

That would be nice. I mean, some. Some play for a guard of a kind. I think one of the obstacles there is they're like kind of bumping up against the hard cap now because they gave DLO the taxpayer mid level exception. They don't have a lot of room to operate. They had to wave and stretch Omax Prosper just to be able to bring Dante Exum back under under the cap. So, yes, they're going to be potentially in play to trade PJ Washington or Daniel Gafford for somebody, but, like, they don't have a ton of wiggle room to work with.

[C]

Right.

[A]

They do have a lot of guys.

[B]

They do a lot of guys.

[A]

We didn't even mention Max Christie, mentioned Naji Marshall.

[B]

I mean, Caleb Martin.

[A]

There's just a lot of solid dudes.

[B]

I just love Najee Marshall. Like a bulldog with a floater. Like, what is not to like about that?

[A]

Could have been on the fours. Listen, just considering how hard he plays.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

All right, number 14. The Memphis Grizzlies went through a bit of a reshuffle here. Traded Desmond Bain over in the offseason. Got to say, the longer we've gotten away from that trade, the more unique, I think, of a situation that they're in where they basically had something that worked to a reasonable extent and they decided that's not good enough. Yeah, let's try to be a little bit better. Let's take a step back, presumably in order to take a step forward, maybe in two or three years. It just doesn't really happen that much anymore. And I got to say, I like the move. Desmond Bain, good player. I think he'll be very helpful for Orlando. But this team needed something new in order to juice things up. Because what they have, we'll see if it works long term. But the, the core of this team is still young enough where you have to give it a shot.

[B]

Well, this is as we established Last pod, a juju based podcast. And the juju in Memphis was horrendous.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

To the point that you needed like a late season coaching change and that kind, that kind of couldn't be the only thing. And so, yes, like I think ultimately like the big three, to whatever extent it was that in Memphis era, like reasonably successful, there's enough to continue on in theory, but you just needed something to change so that people could be hopeful again, including the players on the team, to feel like we have changed enough, that we are not just bumping up against the same limitations we always do.

[C]

I love the put up or shut up element to what they've done. And what do I mean by that? This team wasn't going to take a next step because it's something Desmond Bain did straight up. Like it was going to take a step because of Ja Morant, because he played more, because he was more focused, taking it more seriously. It wasn't going to be because Desmond Bane came back and he added some tweak or something to his game. So like clarifying the roster in such a way, it's like, look, we can take this in a whole new direction, okay. Or Ja Morant, you can step up to the plate and be the player you've been telling the whole world that you are that you seem to never be able to put on the court talking about, I had unlocked OKC last year. He solved them before I got hurt, I solved them. They was going to beat they asses. Like you gotta actually, you know, show improve. And that's my favorite thing about what they did is that they didn't tear it down, you know, for completely. They didn't pull a Boston Essentially they were like, look, we moved on from Bane. We got some stuff that we think is valuable for him. We've brought in a couple of replacements. You know, granted, like, nobody thinks Kentavious, Caldwell Pope is in Desmond Baines, you know, universe at this point in his career. But in terms of what he might be asked to do with this specific squad, I think he's more than capable to do it. And that's what I like about the off season. It puts the onus on the guy that they've basically handed the keys to the franchise to actually show that he's deserving of the keys. If not, we're taking them back, kid.

[A]

Right. And I think the timing ended up working their favor because Jaren Jackson signed that big old extension.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Immediately got hurt.

[B]

So.

[A]

So we got to see how when he plays this season if they take a little bit more time to work him back in. But ultimately the same question is, was kind of alluding to exists for this team. Like you change things on the fringes. And I think that was a good move for them. But ultimately I think it is a John Morant, like how far they can take them, which is our existential question. Can you win a title with John Morant? Sounds dire. Sounds like pretty like cut and dry. Like this is what it is. But like, I think that's what it ultimately comes down to.

[B]

I'm open minded about it, but I kind of need to be convinced of it. Yeah, you know, it's like I'm not closing the door, but I think Ja would need to be a different kind of player. He definitely needs to be a more available player. Like he just would need to stay healthy for longer stretches for that to be possible. But also the reality is when he gets to the playoffs, no matter what he tells you about who he has solved this, the Memphis Grizzlies are like 9 and 18 in the playoffs during the John Morant era. And some of those are, yeah, like a young Grizzlies team coming up against more experienced warriors teams. Like, they're not all series, they're supposed to win, but at a certain point you have to step back and say like, what are you doing in the postseason? Especially if we're going to bank on the proposition of you winning four series in a row. I just, I don't know if. I don't know if he's ever going to be that kind of guy to do it as the best player of a team.

[C]

Yeah, I think if, if we would have asked this question two years ago, right before the 23 season, I'd be like, come on. Yeah, like, why not? If they build a complimentary, talented team around him. This guy's a gamer. This guy has shown that he's got like elite ability. Terms of, like, nobody could stay in front of this dude. Elite court vision, all of that stuff. Now, like Rob said, yeah, like, how serious do you take this thing? Because I think we've gotten to a point where you can be a great player, a great talent, but we not gonna do it because of you. You know, some of the examples, like I think about, I think about like a Kevin Durant, I think about, I think about a Paul Pierce, right? Like these huge interjections into their careers had to happen. Like Kevin freaking Garnett had to go to Paul Pierce's team for him to switch up his whole thing to be like, oh snap, I'm taking defense seriously. Like, I'm playing winning basketball. Not that he wasn't always one of the great wing talents of his era, but like a complete maniac. All time great had to come in. And that was the interjection. Like Boston just wouldn't have changed their fortunes because of something Paul Pierce was doing. And I think, you know, John Morant is showing himself to be more of a Paul Pierce than a KG type.

[B]

I'm learning that Paul Pierce is like a Rosetta stone for you.

[C]

Yeah, you know why? Because one like when you look at Paul Pierce, it's like, oh, he's not in shape. His defense was lacking. Like, it just felt like he was this selfish kind of player and then he became the exact opposite. Yeah, he's just straight up strapping Kobe in the freaking Finals, making all of the big shots, becoming like not just like a good def. Like he was one of the best at his position. And then the conditioning, all of that stuff. It's like you can change who you are and people's perception of you, but like, you gotta like actually do it, bro.

[A]

Yeah. I think with Jod, it's two separate questions, is can he do it and can he stay healthy in order to do it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Before we can even ask the question. And so I think it's a two step process for Memphis and so it's not surprising that they kind of took that with their franchise building. He needs to show that he can be on the floor. Like, it's that simple. Like he's out there for two weeks and then he's not. And it's just a bunch of nagging injuries. He makes the big declaration in the playoffs and then he's out. And so I'm open to the possibility, but I would like to see you just put together an entire season because he does magical things on the floor. This dude literally floats in the air. He's one of the best players to watch in the world. It just hasn't seen it as often as he should be able to.

[B]

Positively electric and John Morant teams in his defense win 45 to 55 games on a pretty regular basis. Like they can be banked on to do that. But wise, I think you spelled it out when you're talking about a couple of years ago to feel like why not? I think we have tipped from why not into why would I believe it? Like what. What would need to happen for me to believe that Jock could be that guy and maybe he still can. He has everything going for him if he wants to take on those responsibilities, if he wants to embrace being a better defender, if he wants to kind of rethink some of the ways he tries to problem solve on offense. But that, that's like a very proactive thing you have to do, especially as a star who in your mind, when you leave your feet, you can accomplish anything. Like how do you convince a guy like that that he needs to change something?

[A]

It's a bad sign when you already had a solid backup option in Scottie Pippen Jr. To then go out and get another one in. Tyus Jones or Ty Jerome. Ty Jerome. Excuse me. Because Tyus Jones was the 1.0 model.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Tyus Jones is the new one. We all liked what he did in Cleveland. They couldn't afford to keep him. And so he goes in is the guard depth who will presumably spelljaw when he's not around.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The insurance policy is what I've dubbed him.

[B]

And in the meantime, I would think if when he is healthy, we're going to see a lot of two guard lineups from them. You know, there's a like, honestly for this team, part of the reason they're here in this ranking, despite the fact that we don't know if they can win in the playoffs in a consistent ways. They have so many good players. They have so many good and interesting players on this roster. More than they're going to know what to do with, more than they're going to be able to play. And I think they're probably going to have to lean in smaller at times because Jerome and Scottie, Pippen and Ja obviously all deserve significant investment of playing time.

[A]

Right. And Zach, Edie, when is he coming back? Yeah, he's also injured. I think he's due for a pretty big year. Determining whether or not his size can be something you could throw into the mix there, just something you could play to the advantage to steal a couple minutes or can you be in a consistent position?

[C]

His confidence grew as the season went on, which is always like a positive indication. And maybe it didn't bear out in his, like, post up numbers. Like if you get down into like the granular numbers, it just felt like one. Memphis felt very comfortable featuring him that way for not like they were doing it 20 possessions at a time, but like that they were willing to do it. And, you know, he seemed comfortable in that role. Like, yo, I'm bigger and stronger than everybody and this can be a tool and a weapon. So I remain bullish on Ed. That's like, that's my thing with Memphis. Just when I look at the players on their team and, you know, a lot of times when we're doing these exercises, you think about, man, what would the best version of all of these guys coming together mean for this team? I think they'd be pretty damn good. It's just for Memphis, that's just rarely been the case last two years. Between injuries and all kinds of different interventions that have happened, it's tough to.

[B]

Say they're going to need some better luck and they're going to need some of this stuff to stick. And in the meantime, especially on the front court, they're just going to have to hold it together. Like between Edie's injury and Jaren's injury. Santi Aldama is now one of the most important Grizzlies. Brandon Clark, fresh off his own injury, is now one of the most important Grizzlies. Jock Landale, step right up. Like, you are now an important part of the rotation. That's a lot of riding on those guys and I think yet another reason why maybe they'll end up playing smaller as much as they can. They're going to try to pack in minutes. Like, what do you do with KCP and Jalen Wells? How are you finding minutes for Gigi Jackson, if that's going to be in the cards or not? For Vince Williams, if that's going to be in the cards. Like, they just have a lot of guys who are deserving of an opportunity and that's. We haven't even talked about Cedric Howard yet.

[A]

The mystery man from the Pacific Northwest. Yeah, he's played like 10 actual, like Division 1 games or whatever it is, but he has all the tools that you want from that position. They've been searching for the wing they might have found him in in Coward, but I do think he's going to have some competition because you mentioned there's a lot of depth there at the wing, even though the front court's a little depleted at this point.

[B]

Yeah. And the person navigating that depth, we should say, like Tama Cisolo is getting his first actual crack at being an NBA head coach. What that will mean, especially after all of the mess of last season about like the renovating of the offense and who's responsible and who wants that and who doesn't like, hopefully there can be some clarity of vision here because it seemed like last season that was not working in the Grizzlies favorite.

[A]

So they get rid of Bane, who was a consistent presence typically when John Moran wasn't around. Do you think that they'll make any follow up moves after the Bain trade? Or do you think there's enough talent here already on the roster where they're like, we can barely play these guys as is.

[B]

I mean, short term, Honestly, I think there is some encouragement in the fact that when Bane was off the floor last season, they just kind of got by like the Grizzlies do that. They just sort of rally and duct tape it together and make it work on a pretty consistent basis. And so I'm optimistic that they're going to win, continue to win a fair number of games despite their injuries, despite trading away a significant piece despite all this change. But if they wanted to lean into the change, they now have all of these picks from Orlando and all of these players. We've just been talking about how guys who either need chances or are deserving of chances, who are good young players. You know, if Cedric Coward pops or gets buried on the bench, maybe he's a trade candidate at the end of the day. Like anyone here feels movable right now. Maybe short of John Morant, but maybe that time is coming too.

[A]

Yeah. All right, next team on our list, number 13, the San Antonio spurs, which I regret to tell you, fellas, I am in over my skis yet again with this team. I believe I had them 10th, 10th in my rankings above the Golden State Warriors. Wow, there's a lot to figure out here that you got five games of deer and fox plus plus Victor Webanyama, a bunch of rookies to work into the rotation. Dylan Harper injured to start the season, but presumably he will get a lot of time with the ball in his hands. But at the end of the day It's Victor Webanyama. And I think he's just one of those players that makes a difference, especially in a regular season where you pair him with Fox.

[B]

I just.

[A]

I just think this team can only be so bad. Am I wrong?

[C]

No, I think you. I think you're right. I think in order for them to get to be, you know, in the conversation with the warriors, the Clippers, the Lakers, I think Wembanyama actually has to be dominant, though I don't think he could just be like, oh, he's good and he's like an obvious all star. And like he has to be a dominant player every single night for that to be the case. Cause I don't think the supporting cast would suggest that they could be on the level with those teams who have just some more depth in terms of the talent, like known talent. Not that some young guys can't get better and show improvement. I think Wembanyama would have to be making up for that lack of depth of talent on his own with his dominance. But I don't think that's impossible. And also I'm somebody who thinks the Fox and Wembanyama partnership makes sense and is gonna work. To me, that's not even a question whether it's going to work to the. To what extent will it work? You know, I think that remains to be seen. Like, is it going to be like a dominant, you know, dare I say it, Jokic and Murray kind of thing? Again, that remains to be seen.

[B]

But will it work?

[C]

Will it be effective? It's going to be effective.

[B]

It's going to be effective. And I mean, honestly, was, as far as Wemby's dominance, what if I told you he was already dominant? Like part of the problem for the spurs is he stepped off the floor and they fell into the abyss.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And now I think the combination of one, you have de' Aaron Fox, hopefully on a full time basis, if he can stay healthy over the course of the year, not just with Wimby, but without Wemby helping to prop up the team. You also have actual, living, breathing backup centers.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

In particular Luke Cornett, when you're talking about the defensive drop off when Wemby steps off the floor, like, that's a real backup center all of a sudden, who can prop up every. Everything you're trying to do, who can keep your principles, who can keep you in structure, all of a sudden you're a real basketball team. Yeah.

[A]

Plus he knows kung fu now.

[B]

Does he?

[A]

Wemby does.

[B]

Oh, wait, I thought you're talking about Luke.

[C]

I was about to say damn cornet.

[A]

He will. Just give him time. Although if you played under Missoula, you would think he would probably know some sort of martial arts, perhaps something in the Brazilian jurisdiction. This is our existential question. Is the Fox and Wemby partnership. We only got 120 minutes of it last year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it does feel like it's already on the clock, that they need to prove that it's as good as everyone presumes it's going to be. Because with Dylan Harper waiting in the wings, you have a guy who could presumably fill that role on a different timeline, but he's also younger, cheaper. It just fits things a little bit better, gives you a longer Runway. And I think an organization would be more attracted to that than perhaps what would they have right now if it doesn't work out?

[C]

To me, I think the spurs, like, I've seen a lot of people kind of poo poo the guard glut. And I completely disagree in the sense that they're trying to win right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And if you're not good enough to be a win now player, you're not gonna play.

[B]

Wait, what is there here to poo poo? Like, Darren Fox is very good. No, I think Harper seems.

[C]

No, there's people that are brushing off that. It could become an issue.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[C]

Like, it's like, oh, whatever. They got the players, they got the young guy. We'll see how it works out. I'm like, I don't know.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

They have a lot to figure.

[C]

They have a lot to figure out. And again, you know, just like that would be Castle's third year and he be trying to play for an extension. You know, then you get the Kaminga situation going over here in San Antonio, and that's like, that stuff is real. That stuff affects a roster where, you know, Draymond Green is giving a speech like, and I'm not talking about Jonathan, man. But, you know, you know, a lot of these young guys, they. They don't know the value in the marketing.

[A]

Like, Devin Vassell needs a podcast.

[B]

Who do you think Draymond was talking. Was talking about Josh Giddey? Who was he talking.

[C]

He's talking about Jonathan Kaminga. But, like, I think these things with the. When you're mixing the young with the old, they spring up quickly. Where Golden State, who's trying to win a championship, trying to do real things in, you know, in real NBA games, are like, yo, Kaminga, we need you to be an exceptional role player. And Kaminga's like, I need to get paid. I need to be looked at as one of the best wing players for my wing skills and how those things sort of butt against each other. And I think that's something to definitely be watching for.

[A]

I just don't remember.

[C]

It's early days.

[B]

Yeah, it's very early days.

[A]

I just don't remember another situation like this.

[B]

This.

[A]

You traded for the presumptive running mate for your superstar colossal talent at the deadline. Couple months later, you luck into a younger version of that exact model that you were looking for. He's waiting in the wings. They're playing together. But the other one hasn't even proven himself. Nope, he hasn't even played with that guy. It's. It's a powder keg of a situation. I guess it's a. Ultimately a good problem to have.

[B]

Yeah, it's kind of a why not both situation. But what about for how long? That's what I mean. Like between the three of them, two of those guys are going to work. I couldn't tell you right now which ones it's going to be.

[C]

Are any of these guys shooting guards?

[B]

Tbd.

[A]

One of them might shoot and it's Dylan Harper who isn't going to play as much as the other guys.

[B]

Probably not. But again, and I think Dear and Fox's three in particular, whether it can kind of get back on course. Huge variable for his career for who he can be as a spur for his ability to play with either of these guys in the backcountry court. Like somebody is going to have to shoot or find other ways to be impactful off the ball. I think Fox has shown enough of a capacity to do that in various ways. Taking handoffs from Sabonis, working as a cutter. Like, he's not the best off ball player I've ever seen, but he has some of that to his game and Castle definitely does. Like, he's a really instinctive player who we have seen do a lot of that stuff. Maybe even better off the ball than he is on the ball at this point in his career. So Harper have to find out how he fits within that sort of dynamic.

[A]

Yeah, it's just both Harper and Castle are tough to fit with Fox as your number one. Yeah, I just think Castle's shot is going to be a work in progress probably his entire career. He brings it defensively. Definitely has a certain downhill approach to things that I think is effective, but will work in concert with the starting line that they plotted up. I Think Carter Bryant, guy that drafted 13th overall, actually fits what they're building a little bit better because he's a little bit more plug and play a little bit. Known quantity as a three and D guy. Harper's another guy. I think he's best on the ball, and you don't really want to take that away from him. He can run second units, but for how long? And so I do think this season is kind of an inflection point. Even if it feels early, it will ultimately probably dictate where they go.

[B]

I think what's going to relieve some pressure is they are not the Warriors. Right. Like, they're not competing for a title where everyone needs to row in the same direction. Instead, they're a young team who's. That's going to take a big jump in wins. Yeah. And when it's. When it feels. Feels like you're progressing, a lot of the other stuff feels easier to, like, process and swallow down. Yes.

[A]

Winning solves all. Any other guys we want to mention here? It's a very talented but still young roster. I'm curious. Who starts?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, are we. I assume it's Fox, Vassell, Barnes, Wemby.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Does Castle get the nod just because. Reigning rook of the year.

[B]

What do you think was.

[C]

Yeah, it'd be awkward if he didn't get the. The nod for somebody who's either older and not in the. Still in the developmental stage or younger and hasn't proven as much as him. So it would be strange if they took him out of the starting lineup, especially since the perception is that he kind of overachieved as a rookie. So it's like, I'm coming off of this positive rookie year and, you know, you never know. Maybe the spurs still have the kind of culture where the ego of being a starter doesn't matter, but that stuff matters to guys, whether they're in that starting five or not. So I think it would. It would be strange if he didn't get that nod automatically.

[B]

I just. I still think there's just like, a lot of juice in that kind of triangulation of ball handlers. Yeah. And in a way that will clearly benefit Wemby. Like, he's somebody who, you know, wants to space, wants to pull attention. Will naturally just kind of instill so much gravity in everything that they're doing. Barnes has been such a good vet for them. I agree. He's kind of like, locked into that starting lineup against all odds of what we would have thought two or three years ago. Like, has really established himself with this group. I also think they've just given themselves a lot of options, right? Like, they have. They now have the potential to. You know, Kelly Olenek is on this team as well. And like, Kelly Olenek is the kind of four you could play with. Luke Cornett, he's the kind of five you could play with. Jeremy Sohan, like, they all of a sudden just have a lot of combinations of players, and that makes it murky in some ways to figure out what their top eight or nine in the rotation is going to be and specifically, again, like, what combinations of guards are going to work together. But those are good problems to have if you're in the spurs position.

[A]

We haven't talked a lot about Wemby or at least the specifics of his comeback at this point. Hope that he's healthy and able to play first and foremost. It seems like he's gotten the all clear at this point. Also had a very interesting summer with his time off, which tell. That guy has a lot of interests and we support that. He's a man. He's a worldly fella, you know. But in terms of this season, is there anything you guys want to see from him specifically? Do you think you want to see him used differently with Fox? Do you. Is or is it as simple as, like, honing the template that he already kind of laid out?

[B]

I don't think if it's differently, like, he and Fox have barely played together. I just want to see their. I want to see them find a pattern.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

I don't really care what that looks like. I'm very flexible in terms of how they want to space it, how, like, roll versus pop spots on the floor. Like, the overall, like, machinations of it, I'm open to, but they need to figure out how to play together.

[C]

Yeah, I want to see Wemby constantly threatening the rim. That doesn't mean he's taking a, you know, taking a guy off the dribble from the perimeter and drives and stuff. But I do think it has to be in the pick and roll, like, actually rolling hard, actually catching, you know, on the run or catching in the paint, drawing multiple defenders and getting it out. Like, I want to see him constantly pressuring the basket on offense. I know there was this idea that, oh, his favorite player is kd. He's going to be a dribble, dribble, you know, pull up, big man, three pointer. I'm like, bro, like, if this guy's going to actually conceal, consistently put defenses In a panic. It's not because he's dribbling 25ft out and taking jump shots. It's because they constantly have to think about his size and his presence in and around the basket and contend with his ability to actually spray out the shooters and be an elite big man passer. So that's what I want to see. I want to see Wemby threaten the basket.

[B]

If Wimy does that, and they are, I would think they're probably going to be a top 10 defense. I fully expect it. A huge jump from last season. But healthy Wemby, plus all these other components, if that combination of stuff happens, I think we're right that this is like a potential play, like locked in playoff team, not just fighting for the playoffs, but they could really shock some people.

[A]

I think it's important to remember when we last left Victor Webanyama, he was still in the baby deer phase of his offense. Like the defense is just going to come so naturally. He's just going to be a deterrent just simply by being on the court. He warps the dimensions of. Of the half court. But he was taking a lot of threes and they were starting to come around finally. And I think everything else is just kind of a bonus. And so there's still a lot to kind of tap into there. You would hope Fox would be the type of person who could maybe force the issue in a way that Chris Paul, a little bit more methodical at his age, who's 4 years old for God's sake, couldn't do last year. And so there's still a lot to explore beyond just like what it can do on the Kung Fu Circle, you know.

[B]

So baby deer is in the past. We're in the like young buck, fuzzy antlers kind of situation right now.

[A]

Elk action. It's probably a Giannis joke comp there somewhere, but we're going to move along here. Yes. Number 12 back to the Eastern Conference, the Detroit Pistons, who have a lot of optimism. A lot of buzz kind of building here. Sure. I'm vacillating back and forth because when we did these rankings initially, I was a little mixed a little down on their offseason because they basically replaced a lot of those stopgap shooters that ended up being so essential to their success last season with a lot of meh. And part of that's not their fault. Malik Beasley got into some shit, you know, didn't see that one coming. But I just. I think we know what we can get from Duncan Robinson. I think Charis avert depends if he's going to be the version that he was the start last season for the Cavs versus what he was in the past. We'll see. And I think you could hope that the young guys get better, but, like, how much better? And so I'm left in a place where it's like, I'm optimistic long term, but for this season, I don't know if the leap is going to come as easily as perhaps we thought.

[C]

I disagree. And it's because.

[B]

Which one do you disagree with? Because Justin just did all of it.

[C]

I think they're going to make a leap, and I think it's based on the fact that a group of young guys now have an identity, right? Like, they're not going into the off season. Kind of like, well, I think coach wants me to do this. And so when I'm working on it, it's like, no, like, everybody knows who they're supposed to be for the team, save for Jade and the Ivey, because he kind of missed a lot of their great success. He did their great successes last year, modest as they were. But again, when you think about where they came from to what they accomplished last year, it's amazing. I think because they've developed an identity and it's a bunch of young guys, I think they're gonna improve within those identities. They're gonna be even better at all of the stuff that they were tasked with last year because you have a whole off season focused on, all right, this is what I gotta do for us to win this year. This is what I gotta do to get paid. More importantly, for a lot of guys, like, my next deal is gonna be predicated on earning all of the minutes, getting into the second round of the playoffs, doing all of this stuff. Like, this is what I got to do to get this. So that's why I'm super bullish on the. On the Pistons this year.

[B]

I mean, one of the indicators, if you want to think about, like, who is going to. What teams are going to move forward, which teams are going to take jumps. It's like, who has been in their role, as you're saying, was long enough to build traction in it so that they're actually taking steps forward and they don't have to do the mental gear shifting of, oh, now I have to do this whole other thing. They. They have all that entrenched, and the Ivy piece of it is going to be fascinating to watch. I. I am bullish enough on so many of their young guys that I see the Bet on development. I get it. I get like feeling like you can let go of several of your best three point shooters from last season, that you can replace some of those guys with the aggregate shooting that you already have. Plus bringing in guys like Duncan Robinson. And you're going to bank on Jalen Duran to be 10 to 15% better. You're going to bet on a Sar Thompson to be 10 to 15% better. Maybe you bet on Ron Holland. I don't know what that means yet. He's probably the one I'm like least sure about.

[A]

Interesting. Because honestly the thing that's starting to turn me as I was doing research for this pod and Ron Holland just turned 20.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In July.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So he spent all of last year being 19 and it's one thing to be 19 as a rookie, but typically guys aged into their 20s, like by the end of the season, it's like a half thing. Like he's going to be 20 this entire year. Like he's young for a super young. Yes.

[B]

I just have no idea what he is or kind of how he fits. And especially in a world where Sar Thompson is very important and he is very important.

[A]

He's going to play this year.

[B]

Are he. Can he and Ron Holland coexist? Are those two guys who can play together or is it going to be a zero something in terms of their minutes.

[A]

Were you not convinced by the 153 point attempts that Ron Holland took in Las Vegas summer leave? He hit seven of them.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That's almost half the percentage shooting.

[B]

Is there?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Look, if he to justify his draft pick, I think he either has to become, you know, one of the great role players in the league or that three starts falling. Right. But the thing about Ron Holland is that again he earned minutes on a team that had a defined identity.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like that matters. And to for him to be that young and we know he's that talented. Like I just think he's gonna be better. Like he's gonna earn even more minutes now. You know what I mean? Like that's what it feels like to me.

[B]

Well, as far as that defined identity, I think that begs our existential question, Justin.

[A]

Yes. Which is what's the over under on fights started by the Detroit Pistons last year? I wish there was a way to count this on basketball reference. It was probably in like the 20s or the 30s.

[B]

I mean because if we're talking we're.

[A]

Including skirmishes just like not full on fights.

[C]

Oh, it was got to be in the 20s.

[B]

Skirmishes, kerfuffles, like the like 21 would.

[C]

Be once every four games.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So definitely in the 20s.

[B]

Well, the variable is how many games does Isaiah Stewart play? That's right. I mean if, if that number is over 60, then the fights are going to skyrocket. Like I, I love this about them though. I love their edge in part because it's not a front like you've see. We have seen enough fake tough teams. They just want a piece of everybody.

[C]

These guys are maniacs.

[B]

They are maniacs. And I think it is inextricable from the way they actually play basketball. And that's what makes it exciting.

[A]

That's where the loss of Beasley, I think actually might hurt them. Where it did feel like his preening in some of his braggadocious qualities trickled.

[B]

Down to the rest of the roster.

[A]

I never thought he would set the tone emotionally for a team, but there he is. It comes down to whether or not Stewart and Holland, who was a big part of that because it just seems like his trigger might have been quicker than Isaiah Stewart. Maybe not as ferocious.

[C]

Ron Holland or Ron Holland.

[A]

Holland.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

He's ready. He's a fucking holler.

[C]

He's definitely ready.

[B]

It's real. It's a real stay ready so you don't have to get ready situation.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

So I don't know how much that matters long term. Maybe like some suspensions might limit their ceiling.

[B]

Sure. A little bit.

[A]

But you're right, ultimately they. They know who they are. It comes down to some of the development of some of the young guys. I think Sara Thompson finally getting to play after his own scary health situation. I think it's going to pay dividends. How much does he duplicative as Rob mentioned to Holland.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I think as long as Ivey kind of comes to form, like it makes a little easier to pace those guys out.

[C]

Also for me, like the Cade piece of this.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[C]

Is very important in terms of last year. Obviously he took a leap, so to speak. But I think for me it was like his downhill stuff where he was figuring that out where early in his career is like, is this guy fast enough? Will his size actually transfer? Because he's not getting downhill even when he does the finishing feels. Whatever. It feels blah. Like I think, man, he is just fig. He figured so much out last year in his role as like, you know, the pick and roll fulcrum and finding his own shot.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I thought that like to me the playmaking stuff was always going to come because he's such a high IQ player. But Finding his shot on his own has just taken him to such a different level. I think it'll be even more so this year. And I think Cade, for, you know, we. When during our first podcast, when we're talking about Brooklyn and, you know, we're talking about Utah and we're talking about Charlotte to a lesser extent. But, like, Charlotte is like, they have a guy who we think could do the things that K does. He's just not a serious person. Like Detroit, we've thought like, oh, they have this perimeter guy. He's just not staying on the court. And even when he does, is the turnovers and is the jump shot falling, can he even get to the wreck? Like, there's all of these questions that just finally get answered and. And I just think he's going to build on that. And that's exciting. And that's the main thing about it for me with Detroit, it's like, yeah, it's like they're scrappy and all of that, but they have an elite guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know what I mean? At the point of attack. And so that, to me is what you need to be most excited about Detroit, is Cade Cunningham and an elite.

[B]

Guy who makes all these other scrappy guys better. Actively.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And in particular, like, you know, he and Jalen Duran clearly have a chemistry that works. He and Sar Thompson, like, are still finding it together, which is terrifying. Like, Sar Thompson played like 59 games last season. In those 59 games, Cade got him 50 buckets, layups or dunks. That's only going to expand as they're finding the angles for a start to work more and more. And as a saar is getting more and more comfortable playing off of someone like Cade. But I thought Cade in the playoffs, attacking hard, going fast was as encouraging a thing as we've seen from him over the last couple years. Because was, you're right. Like, there were always the questions about his athleticism. There was also like, yeah, he could operate at different speeds and play at his own pace, but if you're only getting up to second gear, what is that worth?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And seeing him go hard in transition against the Knicks, knowing that we need to maximize every semi transition opportunity, that's the player they need him to be. Those are the opportunities they need him to seize.

[A]

Circling back to Asar, just because I think his brother gets a lot of the shine and deservedly so. Somehow it feels like espn, as we're recording this, put out their own rankings of players. I think he was like 30, something like. And I was Like I didn't realize that they could hype him more than we have.

[C]

They're on our turf.

[A]

Yeah, they saw it and they're like, let me take this to another level. Asar probably won't ever be the offensive player that Amen is, but defensively you could start to see it coming, especially in the playoffs. Just like the fluidity, the hip movement, this, the closing speed, like he's going to be a one of one defender like his brother already is. And that's a dimension that they didn't really fully tap into last season because he took so long to come. All around the offense, we'll see. But like the defense is going to.

[B]

Be a problem if he qualifies by games played. I think he could also be a first time for a first team defender this year. Like he's already that caliber. We've already seen. It's just a matter of getting the reps, getting the recognition and qualifying for the the vote.

[A]

Well, speaking of overhyped, we have to go to the nerd chic team of this season, which is number 11, the Atlanta Hawks. The hype train, off the rails already. And I'll be honest, we're probably responsible for some of it because this team just like it's just barrels of fun all of a sudden. Didn't think it could happen with Trey Young. Classic sour puss in this league, but unfortunately they just surrounded him with so much stuff, it's hard not to like what they built.

[B]

I also like Trae Young, sourpuss though he may be at times, I'm charmed.

[A]

I'll say this, there are people who try to play the villain role and I think it comes naturally. Trey Young, whereas like we saw Halliburton doing the stuff in msg, kind of like taking cues from Reggie Miller, almost doing the WWE version of it for Trae Young. He is that guy. He lives that life day in, day out. There is no kayfabe here.

[C]

No, he is this person.

[A]

And so I have to appreciate that he's at least honest to that character.

[B]

It just works for him and it just works for the Hawks. Like this roster, this construction, everything that they've brought in, I'm very excited about. We were already on board, so I don't know, they didn't need to sell us. But the idea of just like bringing in even someone like Nikhil Alexander Walker. Yeah, just a perfect complimentary piece for what they were already building.

[C]

Yeah, look, I'm not as high as everybody else, not in terms of excitement to watch them. It's just this is a theoretical team. Right. Like, these pieces do have to come together. They actually have to build this chemistry and this sort of team effort. But like, the players, again, when you just think Kristaps and Jalen Johnson next to each other, especially defensively, if Chris Staps is over his mystery flu, like, symptoms, that's amazing. Right? Just as a front court.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's before, you know, we get. We throw Dyson Daniels and Nikhil Alexander into like, that's just a.

[B]

Like, it's just.

[C]

It's obvious what that team would be like defensively. And then, you know, Trey Young is a creative offensive player, great passer. We're waiting on Jalen Johnson to like, stay on the court.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And put all of his vast talents, you know, finally on the floor. Like, I'm there with everybody. The talent, like on this team is just, you know, Johnson and Porzingis specifically. They have to play. This ain't going to work with just, you know, Inyeka Kangwu manning the paint.

[B]

Who also gets his share of injuries too, for being real.

[C]

That's what I'm saying. So that's the thing about the Hawks. It's like, man, I love it. I love the off season, but these guys got to play.

[A]

Still theoretical.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

I would say a Congu might even surpass some of the guys we mentioned in the nerd chic rankings. If we're doing individually, he might be number one guy. I've heard so much about his defensive positioning at this point. I can write him his bio at this point.

[B]

I think this will hopefully be a clarifying season for him because I would, I would say personally I've liked him as a starter. I've liked some, you know, him in high leverage minutes. I've been blown away and so I would like to see a little bit more from him. And I'm hoping again, we don't really know what combinations will be most successful or even most common for the Hawks. Like, are he and Kristaps going to play together in the front court a ton? Is it going to be more interchangeable? I don't know. But I would love to come out of the season with a greater understanding of like, okay, Anyaka Kongu is. This is like he can be counted on as a pillar in these key ways.

[A]

Right. Because if you bring in Kristoffs, you presume he's going to start and then is a Congu just the guy that fills in long term or I think.

[C]

And less so nowadays. But you know, Jalen and Kristaps looked at it as finesse. Bigs.

[B]

I mean, Jalen is. He plays with some force.

[C]

He does, but like a congu is like physicality is his number one trait at this point. It's just, you know, you've never. You've never felt like, oh, my defensive rebounding situation is fine whenever I have a congu out there. That's just not been the case. He's shown flashes of good rim protecting, but it's never been like, oh, this is a really good rim protector. I think he's really good out in space on his feet. He's always shown that. I think, you know, a lot of this stuff is. Flashes have been shown, like Rob said, in terms of, oh, maybe one day he will be this kind of guy. Maybe one day he will clean the boards all the time. It's just he has to show. I just think he's. He is complimentary to the two main guys, right?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

He's a different kind of.

[B]

I think when you're undersized at the five like he is, it's hard to be an every night, tone setting force. You have to be the exception to the rule to be that kind of player.

[A]

A little more subtle, a little bit more of a thinking man's five.

[B]

Yeah. Sophisticated.

[A]

Yes. And so if Trae Young is going to benefit from all of these wing players that they've assembled, I think Congo will as well. It's just so you can go down the list. There's just like all the exact types of guys you want on every roster, first and foremost. But also next to Trae Young, the big question, I think ultimately comes down to Trae Young. That is our existential question, is how much of this construction of the team, this new version of the Hawks, makes Trae Young essential because he can operate and just like make sure, orchestrate the tentacles of this team that all need to be activated. Or does it make it more expendable because the team is now more well rounded, more talented overall? Jalen Johnson presumably is probably their best player at this point, I would say overall, or maybe takes that mantle this year. And because there's a contract situation looming over this entire thing with Trey.

[B]

Yeah, I still think Trey is essential. I think what he does cannot be replicated anywhere else on the roster. And the next level playmaking you're getting from him accentuates all this athleticism, all this open court play.

[A]

I think the question might be, can you get what Trey is doing for this team in terms of orchestration at a lower level? Because the rest of the team is so talented and more well rounded.

[C]

I don't know. I think like, yeah, I don't know because mo like Trae Young is an elite passer. Like he is. He doesn't have a lot of peers, especially not at point guard with his skills. Like I think the next like to me the next category of point guard is probably a Kobe White, but he's a completely different skill set.

[B]

I. Yeah, as in terms of playmakers that might be like no, not playmaker.

[C]

That's a couple of point guards talent.

[B]

Right.

[C]

You're like, well shoot, I don't want to have to pay him 45 million. Maybe I could get away with paying Kobe White 30.

[B]

Right.

[C]

You know, like this a different team.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think what, what would change it and ease that is if you would need significant steps forward from Jalen Johnson and from Zachary Reisha Shay in particular. Like if those guys completely elevate his playmakers. Maybe you can look at different kinds of guards. But like Trey Young led the league in assists. Like he. And not just like padding stats. Assists. Actual visionary assists.

[C]

Throwing people open all the time.

[B]

Throwing people open all the time. And I thought like played a slightly different style last season was more like open to being off the ball, defended more consistently than he ever has in his career before. Like I am mostly emboldened as far as the Trey Young experiment goes. And it feels like from the players the Hawks are bringing in that they're somewhat emboldened by it.

[C]

They're leaning into it. Yeah.

[A]

I worry that they might ultimately become in Trey specifically might be a victim of his own success because I think if he is successful this season doing exactly what you guys are mentioning, I do think he is an elite playmaker, one of the best in the game. And I think he's tailor made for this exact role that they've kind of carved out for him. They'll get far into the playoffs and all of a sudden his defensive concern become more of an issue. It's more in the spotlight. It's not him doing the bows and msg. It's actually getting him getting attacked all the time because he is the one to attack for the Hawks. And so it's kind of a rich man's issue for a Hawks team that hasn't had that level of success in a little while now. So big picture, not that big of a deal. But I think then it will start to factor more into their long term decision making.

[B]

I think the hope when you get to that point is like if you need to go to your fourth offensive option, to not go at Dyson Daniels and Nikhil Alexander Walker and Jalen Johnson and it's like your spot up small forward trying to attack Trey Young off the dribble. Maybe Atlanta's kind of already won the bargain. I like. It just should be illegal to play Dyson Daniels and to kill Alexander Walker together. Like that is so much defensive pressure that they are going to gum up a lot of playoff opponents. Like, it's not quite OKC Thunder level, but it's about as close as you're going to get in the Eastern Conference.

[C]

If Trae Young and this team make it to the second round or play in a highly competitive four, five or three, six, don't they gotta pay him?

[A]

I think it would be tough to replace him, especially the way the team is constructed now. I. I think it's even tougher for him to find another option that would allow him to be this version of himself.

[C]

Or what if.

[A]

What if it's.

[C]

What if he becomes a Julius Randle thing?

[A]

Could be. That's the other option.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

We don't give you the raise, but we pay you right where you at right now.

[A]

Oh, I see. I thought you were talking about Nick's Julius Randall, where it's just like.

[C]

No, no, no.

[B]

There any Julius Randall things.

[C]

I mean, yeah. The contract situation.

[A]

You were the guy until. Yeah.

[C]

Normally because you're the second best. You were the second best in the playoffs. We just handed you this crazy raise and kept it pushing.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But instead it's like, no. Like we just gonna keep paying you where you at. And I think paying Trae Young, extending him at his current salary numbers, I think is fair.

[A]

I just don't. I look at the entire league like, where is the option? Where's the leverage coming from? From his side. And negotiations are a game of leverage.

[C]

65 million a year.

[A]

Trae Young or just empower you as the number one guy on our team.

[C]

Yeah, it's true.

[B]

I can't think of one off top of my head. I think the leverage is not that there's another offer out there. The leverage is like, if the vibes are good coming out of this season, do you want to rock the boat or do you want to continue building what you've got? Because, like, we're. Now there's a momentum that's really gathering here. And I think it was already gathering. It was somewhat subdued when Jalen Johnson was out because he's become such an important part of the team. And you could see how not having him out there took the wind out of the sails of the whole thing. But if this is a successful season and I think if they don't make it to the second round, that would be a disappointment under these circumstances. I think it's. I mean, Cleveland, New York, Orlando, those teams feel to me a step above or at least a half step above where Atlanta is now. Anyone else? Detroit included, I don't see a reason why the Hawks wouldn't think we could beat that team.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

Yeah. We have them fourth. Yeah. In the east based off our standings.

[B]

So they should make the second round. Like they should be a real playoff threat. And I think if their guys are healthy, that's the big caveat. They will be.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. I, I think it would be like, not crazy. It's just. I would personally be shocked if the team went from what they were last year to the second round of the playoffs despite the new pieces. It's just like that's, that's. It's a lot.

[B]

Yes, there's a lot.

[A]

Will Kristaps play? And if he does, will he play? Well, last time we saw him, he was dealing with Las Plagas. He went. Las Plagas. It's a Resident Evil reference.

[B]

I got it.

[A]

Thank you. We're cool guys over here. Yeah. Hour seven in the pod getting real, real frisky, real fury. But he did play in Eurobassing. We should mention.

[B]

Mentioned.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He has played basketball recently.

[A]

Yes. So. Okay, we'll see. Anybody. Anybody else here brought in Luke Canard.

[B]

I like on this team as well. Very different mode of what you're going for versus all these wingy defenders.

[A]

Very important time for Luke Canard because he's playing Canard on his first Bird team of his career.

[B]

What am I, what am I missing in this joke?

[A]

It's a duck.

[B]

That's a. There's a type of duck called the canard.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. I, I didn't know.

[B]

No.

[A]

There's actually a restaurant in Portland called Canards.

[B]

First of all, there would be.

[C]

Yes, copy. Have you had anything to you guys?

[A]

A long time ago when it first opened. Yeah.

[C]

Got you.

[A]

Do you think that.

[C]

No, I, I. The bird, canard type of duck. Birds of a feather, you know. We are losing it.

[A]

They fought together like Billie Eilish.

[C]

He's a big bird guy.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

From the deep cut bucket. I like Keaton Wallace. I think he's currently on a two way for them. Every time I watch him play, I'm like, that guy is making plays that change the flow of this game. In positive ways. I hope he gets a real NBA contract.

[A]

All right, that's it for part four of the preseason power rankings. We're down to the top 10. You followed us this long. God bless you. We appreciate you. We'll be back next time. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. We'll catch you.