Big Woz (2:41)

This is how we know he's in his Robert Parish on the Bulls era of his career. Because I'm like, what's like, an old fogey ailment that he could have got that was. Would have been, like, worse than sciatica. I'm like, glaucoma. Like, what are the ailments beyond this? That would have been like, wow, this cat is old. At the same time, I think because he's so advanced in his career, you know, I think we kind of baked in the idea that LeBron would miss games this year. It's just going to be the reality of LeBron seasons going forward, limited that they may be that he's gonna miss a decent amount of games no matter what the situation is. And I don't think, like, I think it should be expected, and it's baked in. And that's why it's, like, so important and imperative that they did trade for Luka Doncic, they did extend him, and he's now, quote, unquote, in the best shape of his life. That's what you need that for, right?

Justin Varier (3:48)

Yeah. Sciatica is a weird one, because I don't think you could just have some sort of procedure or, you know, work it out in a certain way, and all of a sudden you're back in. It's really just a maintenance sort of thing. I honestly hear about it more often because I watch a lot of these chiropractor videos online where they do, like, the cracks and whatnot, which is satisfying in a weird and almost concerning way. But I think they really just have to take their time, allow him to rest it out, and then go from there. And so you're right. Maybe this is the type of thing that lingers not only past this three to four weeks kind of timeline, but perhaps into the season. The other part of this, though, that we should talk about, which we should always talk about with LeBron, is what if this isn't actually what they say it is? We had the whole thing in the summer, didn't seem like he was happy that they were leaning more into Luka Doncic. And lo and behold, after nothing happens after he stays on the Lakers, he's not there to start the season.

Big Woz (4:43)

Is this like a quiet, quitting, silent protest kind of situation? Look, I don't have any indication that that's what this is. All the reporting, everything that I've heard from anybody that I've talked to, this seems to be pretty legitimate, but at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if the Lakers are just being extra cautious because of the age and because, again, they have another horse, a younger horse to lean on and sort of carry them through this early stretch. And so, you know, I. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just more so that they were being super cautious with the guy and not that LeBron is kind of. Cause I, like you remember the training camp situation. Like, the way they described his load management situation for this year was like. It was like, going to be an unprecedented level of load management. So maybe that does tie into this, but until we get some other indications to the contrary, I'm willing to believe that this is completely legitimate and that the guy just needs to give his body a little bit more time before he fully ramps into regular season mode.

Justin Varier (6:03)

Yeah, on the one hand, he's old, and so these are the type of things that pop up when you're old. We know this probably better than anybody else. Like, when you get toward 40, things just start aching. You can't really do anything about it. You just have to manage it going forward. Uh, on the other hand, you know, sciatica is the type of thing where it's like, how can you tell someone that they are capable of playing through this sort of thing? It's a pain management issue. And so if he says all of a sudden, like, he just didn't get enough sleep the night before because he went out partying before he went before a game, like, oh, my sciatica's acting up, like, you literally can't say anything. And that's compounded by the fact that JJ Redick is out here saying to. To the press, like, LeBron is on his own timeline, which could be pointed. It sounded pointed. But JJ also has a way of saying things in a way that sound more nefarious than they probably actually are. Yeah.

Big Woz (6:52)

And also, I feel like JJ of all people, would be on board with LeBron and how he's managing things. I think there's a pretty decent, healthy respect between those 2. And if LeBron, in so much as he has a problem with the Lakers and what's been expressed through the media, twip management, who, by the way, ain't even really management no more. Like, Jeanie Buss doesn't own a team anymore. Rob Pelinka, he's on borrowed time. Like, who are you really mad at at this point? Can't be the new ownership that barely knows you, so he's just gotta just take it one step at a time, man.

Rob Mahoney (7:31)

Yeah.

Justin Varier (7:31)

So we had the Lakers seventh in the powerings to spoil just a little bit of the show that you're going to hear going forward on this one. Would you look at them any differently knowing that LeBron could miss somewhere around a month in the season at minimum?

Big Woz (7:46)

I don't. And the main reason is because I base my power rankings on what do I think these guys can do in the postseason. And so I think what I mean by that is if there were a playoff game in two days, LeBron and his sciatica would be out there, you know, and so I haven't really changed how I feel about the Lakers. I think if Luka's on his revenge tour, started with the revenge body. I think he's pretty. He was coming into the season ready to shoulder a certain level of burden, and that's just gonna be accelerated by LeBron missing these games. And if anybody's able to do this sort of one man wrecking crew kind of thing, it's Luka. He's demonstrated that in his previous stop in Dallas. Like to like, you know, top four, top three MVP type of finishes with rosters that were less talented than this one, even without LeBron. So I'm not too worried about in terms of the Lakers and their pecking order. Again, I priced in and baked in LeBron having nagging, you know, annoying injuries because of the age. And again, knowing that Luka is so highly motivated in a way he's literally never been in his entire pro career.

Justin Varier (9:03)

This.

Big Woz (9:03)

This kind of feeds into more of that to me.

Justin Varier (9:06)

Yeah, I mean, LeBron probably at this stage matters more to their ceiling and what they're going to do in the playoffs than what they're going to do in the regular season. For all the reasons that you mentioned, I think we expected them to be a little bit more week to week during the regular season because of all the different management that needs to go on with this team and also the fact that they have to cobble together a defense around a lot of offensive juice in that backcourt with Reeves, LeBron and Luka Doncic. You know, it's to the point where Even in preseason, DeAndre is looking around being like, I actually haven't played with Luca and LeBron at the same time. So, like, they haven't even really put their whole team together on the practice court before the season starts. So this is just kind of how it's going to be with the Lakers. So I agree. I would put them at seven as we have them. Anything else you want to get into, like there's been a couple other injuries that have happened, but surprisingly enough, when we started the power rankings during, nothing major that would have really derailed him.

Big Woz (10:00)

Has happened in, you know, in terms of other Lakers, this is definitely a Rui Hachimura moment. Like I would expect that his minutes and workload will be increased by this LeBron absence. And the same with Austin Reaves. He's going to be the other ball handling ball dominant offensive driver on the team. You know, even when LeBron and Luka are on the floor, he does a pretty decent amount of that.

Rob Mahoney (10:26)

But.

Big Woz (10:26)

But I think he's definitely going to be thrust into a more prominent role now that LeBron is out. So those two guys, I expect to step up in LeBron's absence.

Justin Varier (10:39)

That's right. No emergency topper when Scoot Henderson goes down, but when LeBron James misses a couple weeks, not for the hard working Americans up here in the Pacific Northwest, just the finally manicured Angelenos out there. All right, let's, let's wrap it there. What you'll hear now is what we recorded for part five of the preseason power rankings with Rob Mahoney in Los Angeles a couple of weeks ago. So enjoy that. We'll talk to you soon. Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varier and joining me for part five of the preseason power rankings. We got big was we got Rob Mahoney here. Week three of the power rankings. Definitely not the third straight day that we are recording these pods back to back to back in Los Angeles. As you know by now, we're starting every pod with a little team building. Yeah. Thanks to our friend Rob.

Rob Mahoney (11:35)

I'm very excited about this one today. I have been, you know, figuring out which questions we're going to be talking about. I have been mulling this particular question over. I've gone back and forth, I've had many different answers. I. I want to see where you guys land. Your house containing everything that you own catches fire. Oh. After saving your loved ones and your pets, they're all out and safe, you have time to get one thing safely out of your house. What is the thing you're going back for?

Justin Varier (12:05)

Is it bad that my first instincts was my laptop?

Rob Mahoney (12:07)

Same.

Big Woz (12:09)

Same as I do most of my.

Justin Varier (12:11)

Life on this thing.

Big Woz (12:13)

100% it's my laptop.

Rob Mahoney (12:15)

Really?

Big Woz (12:15)

Cause that's what's definitely gonna keep me most comfortable in my time of, you know, grief and distress.

Justin Varier (12:23)

Like watch Netflix as you watch your house go out, right?

Big Woz (12:25)

Like Netflix insurance company problems. This that like figuring out a new place. But I'm gonna be doing all of that on my lap. Not to mention personal me time.

Rob Mahoney (12:38)

You are a millennial there, you know.

Justin Varier (12:39)

Yeah.

Rob Mahoney (12:39)

If you're younger than us, you have your phone and you're probably fine for us. If we're doing anything serious, it demand 100%.

Big Woz (12:48)

I don't like booking flights on my phone. I don't. Yeah, anything that I think is like real serious.

Rob Mahoney (12:55)

If this is serious, you get a.

Big Woz (12:56)

Pop up, it needs to be on the computer.

Justin Varier (12:58)

You get a pop up on your phone. Like, I'm thrown for a day. Like, I just can't do anything. I just throw it away. Is it. I just don't have any sort of like family heirloom that was passed down from generation to generation.

Rob Mahoney (13:10)

I mean, that's a go to. Right? It's like something sentimental that could not possibly be replaced. I get the thinking with that. And I'm sure lots of people have those items or photos that aren't digitized or whatever it is that they want to hold on to. I found that as I was thinking about this, any item I picked, it felt like too much pressure on that item to then have to keep it for the rest of my life or keep it safe for the foreseeable future. Right. I. I ultimately landed on. I just want the blank slate. I just want to be free. I want to be free of my material possessions. You know, let's get rid of all of it and let's really rebuild back stronger with only what we need.

Big Woz (13:49)

You know, I like this idea, Rob, because, you know, we got enough, like, environmentally conscious people in all of our lives and like the idea, like, you know, those sneakers you dropped off at Goodwill is going to end up in a landfill.

Justin Varier (14:04)

Oh, my God. Do you guys know the George Carlin bit about his stuff? It's a classic. You gotta look it up. But it really hammers home. It's just like, do we need all this stuff?

Rob Mahoney (14:13)

Like, shed our skin?

Big Woz (14:15)

We just don't. I know, straight up.

Justin Varier (14:17)

But I'll say this. The less intense version of this is what I did. Coming back from New Orleans, moving to, back to la. I just kind of let everything go for the most part. I basically, I had all my stuff in storage as I went to Connecticut for like a month or two. And I was like, oh, I'll pick it up eventually. But when I moved back, I was just like, do I need a bunch of utensils and IKEA furniture and all that sort of stuff?

Rob Mahoney (14:41)

Well, so what happened? Did you have to pay someone to take it out.

Big Woz (14:44)

They repossessed it, probably.

Rob Mahoney (14:46)

They just took it.

Justin Varier (14:47)

It was just Storage Wars Storage. No, no, I didn't do that. I had a friend who sold off some of it while she was still down there. And then I stopped in to take all the stuff that I still wanted, and then I gave some away. Unfortunately, the storage container place was like, you actually have to put some of this stuff in the dumpster. So I spent two days that. But I will say, having. Looking back on it, it was a pain in the ass. You do not realize how much, like, a toilet paper holder, like, costs and, like, your. Your random forks that you don't care about. But that's like $20 on top of 20. It's like. It's a terrible idea. If you could hold on to even the basic essentials. I think that's true.

Rob Mahoney (15:26)

That part is true. The hassle of replacing the essential stuff would be unfortunate.

Big Woz (15:30)

And that's where the new iron.

Rob Mahoney (15:32)

Yeah. I mean, that stuff is just kind of boring. And you know what? Most crucially, doesn't give you the dopamine hit of buying something you're excited about. Like, part of the point of having the sneakers is the thrill of buying the sneakers. And you don't get that when you're just replacing forks.

Big Woz (15:46)

And I was just thinking about this now. Now that you say essentials, there's probably, like, a couple, like, all clad pans that I own.

Justin Varier (15:56)

Yeah.

Big Woz (15:57)

That are supposed to be lifetime heirlooms that would just go poof up his. But maybe it would survive. I was gonna say I've got good news.

Justin Varier (16:04)

I don't.

Rob Mahoney (16:05)

I think they would be fine.

Big Woz (16:06)

That's crazy to think about. So I could go back and just grab that shit.

Rob Mahoney (16:10)

I've seen options. I've seen all clads saved from all manner of disrepair. Like, I think those things are kind of immortal. Wow.

Justin Varier (16:16)

Are you asking this question specifically because Jonathan Kaminga is what you would save from the Golden State Warriors?

Rob Mahoney (16:23)

You know what? I don't think if push came to shove, that is the piece of the roster that they would hold on to.

Justin Varier (16:28)

Well, number 10 on our list, number one team on the docket today, the Golden State Warriors. I have to say, like, in the post LeBron to Miami sort of era in media, like, we'd gotten accustomed to routine updates for certain players as they were going through what Kaminga is going through now. It was more around the range of, like, the Carmelo Anthony types. And for a while, it was maybe like, once a week or whenever he, like, played new York. We would get a bit of a fervor. It has since accelerated to the point where we're getting just like a regular updates. Probably daily. If not like every couple of hours. It's one thing if it was Kevin Durant before his free agency. It's a little different when we're getting to a restricted free agent who isn't pretty good. Like he's fine. He might be good.

Rob Mahoney (17:13)

Might be good.

Justin Varier (17:15)

I think we've had enough of this. I think ESPN is covering this as we're recording this at the end of September. Like this is Iran Contra. You know. I just, I just don't need this in my life.

Big Woz (17:25)

I think the warriors just generate a lot of interest generally.

Justin Varier (17:29)

Yeah.

Big Woz (17:30)

So that's part of it. But like we did a whole podcast before the show. I think people are just interested cause this is just a new situation in the NBA.

Rob Mahoney (17:40)

Yeah.

Big Woz (17:40)

Where teams can just bully a guy who. He's not a two way player. He's not a ten day contract. He's. He's like, he's like a guy we think is gonna be in the NBA for at least seven, eight more years.

Rob Mahoney (17:53)

I would think he'll be around.

Big Woz (17:54)

Right. And he's just being treated like a nothing burger by the organization. Like they just don't care to bully this guy.

Rob Mahoney (18:02)

Yeah.

Big Woz (18:03)

And that's new. That's what's fascinating to me about the story is like this young guy who's shown promise. Can't get a deal.

Justin Varier (18:11)

Yeah. Or it's that it's just so transparent that neither side wants to be in business with each other.

Rob Mahoney (18:16)

Yes.

Justin Varier (18:16)

But they have to come to an agreement in order to part ways.

Rob Mahoney (18:19)

I think that's the part of it that feels a little bit new or at least specific to the situation. Like Jonathan Kuminga is not an important Golden State warrior as a player. Or at least not a very valued one it seems based on the way that they've treated him over the last couple of years. But they need to get something for him if they're going to trade him. Like they need him as a piece to facilitate whatever it is they actually want to do.

Justin Varier (18:40)

Yeah. It's also partly a Joe Lacob versus perhaps the desires of his front office and chiefly probably Steve Kerr who's outright said like I don't know, play him. I don't really see him as a part of what we're doing here.

Big Woz (18:51)

Yeah.

Justin Varier (18:52)

Um. So it's hard to leverage like to negotiate against that position when it's out there and pretty frequent.

Big Woz (18:57)

And I think it's important to say also that the Lakers kind of. This is something they pride themselves on sort of being hard negotiators and the, like, we could do the history. They kind of like semi played hardball with Steph, which I thought was just unconscionable at the time, but they did it. They did it with Draymond, they did it with Iguodala, they did it with Klay Thompson, if you guys remember, the last deal that he had signed with Golden State, there was so much consternation around that deal. So, like, they did that to legends, to the. Literally the greatest players in the history of the organization. And now it's Kaminga's turn to get the treatment.

Justin Varier (19:42)

It's fair.

Rob Mahoney (19:43)

He's being treated like Steph. It's a compliment.

Justin Varier (19:46)

I imagine by the time you're listening to this, he will have signed some sort of deal. And it brings us to our existential question, which, on a scale from 1 to 10, assuming that he's still on the team, they haven't signed and traded him, how much does he matter to the bottom line of this team to begin with?

Rob Mahoney (20:01)

I think it's quite a bit.

Justin Varier (20:02)

Yeah. 10 being the most. Where would you put it?

Rob Mahoney (20:04)

At 7.

Justin Varier (20:05)

Hmm.

Rob Mahoney (20:06)

And I say that in the sense that, like, they either need him to be productive or they need a productive player in his place. I just look at this roster and I see a lot of guys who are like, okay, I. I kind of like them as a. As an eighth guy on a team, as a ninth guy on a team, and they're all playing a little over their heads in the rotation, like they're deep in role players. And then at the top end, it's guys who are 36, 35, 37, now 39. Presumably, if Al Horford is going to be a part of this team, which we assume he will be, it makes me very nervous. And so the idea of having a young, springy forward who can get buckets is, in theory, appealing. Steve Kerr won't play him, certainly won't let him be that. I'm not even saying he should. But they need somebody who's going to produce in the regular season.

Big Woz (20:47)

I have a question about that. Like, on a scale of Kayson Wallace to Cam Johnson, what is that scale? Role player contribution.

Justin Varier (21:00)

So what's the high end, like, who.

Rob Mahoney (21:02)

I think you just described high to high, as far as I'm concerned, I.

Big Woz (21:05)

Think Johnson is like the high end of like.

Rob Mahoney (21:07)

And Kayson Wallace is the low end.

Big Woz (21:09)

No, I'm not saying that's. The lowest. I guess Isaiah Joe is the lowest end. Right.

Rob Mahoney (21:13)

As far as like a guy who's in the rotation.

Big Woz (21:15)

In the rotation, he's doing well for the rotation. So he's the low end.

Justin Varier (21:22)

Fine.

Big Woz (21:22)

But I just felt like it'd be kind of disrespectful to compare Kaminga to Isaiah Joe.

Rob Mahoney (21:28)

No, it is disrespectful, but Isaiah Joe will play the way a coach wants him to play.

Justin Varier (21:34)

So Cam Johnson to Jake Laravia, perhaps, or like Dave Vincent?

Big Woz (21:41)

Sure.

Justin Varier (21:41)

I'm just thinking of role players.

Rob Mahoney (21:42)

The would I rather have Jonathan Kamingo or Jake Laravia on my team is a question that I would have to sit and think about.

Justin Varier (21:48)

I don't know if I'd have to.

Big Woz (21:49)

Think about it, but what I'm asking is like, what could be reasonably expected from Jonathan Kaminga in terms of his contribution as a role player every single day by the warriors this coming season? That's what I'm asking. Is it just Isaiah Joel, like, would we be happy with that?

Rob Mahoney (22:06)

No, I think they would have to lean into him carrying a little bit of weight. It would have to be like, can you be a 14 point a game scorer? Got you coming off the bench, presumably.

Big Woz (22:17)

So we're talking the higher end of.

Rob Mahoney (22:20)

Role player contribution in terms of responsibility for sure. Like, you may not feel great about every shot and every minute, but ultimately, like, they just need someone who's going to sop up usage and points and creativity. And I say that in particular because Jimmy Butler, while a terrific player, even still at this age, he needs a spell, bro. He needs. Well, it's not that he needs spells. He's going to take them whether he.

Big Woz (22:39)

Needs them or not.

Rob Mahoney (22:40)

Like, I mean, here's the thing. When. When do you guys think was the last time that Jimmy Butler played more than 65 games in an NBA season?

Justin Varier (22:49)

Was it the Philly Minnesota season?

Rob Mahoney (22:51)

It was not. It was. After that it was not.

Justin Varier (22:54)

Wow, that's tough.

Big Woz (22:55)

That's crazy.

Rob Mahoney (22:57)

2017 as a member of the Chicago Bulls.

Justin Varier (23:00)

Oh boy.

Big Woz (23:01)

Eight years ago.

Rob Mahoney (23:02)

And you know, Steph has had two relatively healthy seasons, but like picks up his share of injuries. Yeah. Like, these guys are older and you need a rotation to accommodate that. And I don't think that rotation is like, we're just going to play Moses Moody more who I like, but I don't like to do that.

Justin Varier (23:18)

Well, that's where I wonder if the depth of old guys that they're presumably going to bring in. It's Al Horford, D. Anthony Melton, Seth Curry. Is that enough to mitigate needing Kuminga as much? I agree with what you're saying is they need some sort of pop to supplement the old guys. But if we have just enough old guys, is that enough to get us by?

Big Woz (23:37)

But here's the rub though. You think you're Golden State and it's like, we're going to need you to do X, Y and Z. Kaminga comes back and says, well, then you should pay me to do X, Y and Z.

Rob Mahoney (23:52)

That would be a very reasonable thing for him to ask.

Big Woz (23:55)

You know, that's what I'm saying. Like this impasse, it's like, what do you think about this player? You know, because it feels like again, like Golden State is trying to have their cake and eat it too. Because again, what's been out there is two years, 44 million with a team option on the second year, which, like, if you're Jonathan Kaminga, where it's like they've been, they've had you on a trade block, they've basically spent the summer telling you you're not worth a damn. And then they're like, nah, we'll lock you in on a nice pay bump. But like, yeah, we could trade you whenever we want. You won't hit unrestricted free agency to choose your own destiny for another two years. It's like, which one is it, guys?

Justin Varier (24:40)

Where's his motivation to actually buy into what you need him to do? Which is why I would put this probably closer to a four. Just, I just don't see a path where he's going to be motivated to do what you want and what he does and one he wants to do typically just doesn't really fit what they need. He'll have the occasional 20 something point scoring game when certain guys are out or hurt or whatever, which is fine. That gets you through the drudgery of the regular season. I just, in terms of bottom line proposition, I just don't think he'll matter that much for the warriors this season. Which is kind of why I had them lower than the spurs when I was ranking them initially.

Big Woz (25:14)

Yeah, I just, I just think if he was a seven like Rob suggested, he wouldn't be in this predicament.

Rob Mahoney (25:20)

Well, to be clear, I think he's a 7 because either Kuminga or the trade is important.

Justin Varier (25:25)

They need a seven.

Rob Mahoney (25:26)

They need somebody and it could be him. Do like, you know, grousing about kind of producing kind of.

Big Woz (25:31)

Not Sacramento. That could be a seven for them.

Rob Mahoney (25:34)

Malik, Monk, I don't know. The Problem is they've already got a lot of guards.

Justin Varier (25:38)

They do. Yes.

Big Woz (25:40)

So he's Jemski, Monk. Steph.

Rob Mahoney (25:43)

It's Seth Melton. Yeah.

Justin Varier (25:45)

Melton. Who. I mean, if Melton's.

Rob Mahoney (25:47)

Do not forget the Anthony Melton. Don't you dare.

Justin Varier (25:50)

The only problem is you tend to forget him because he's just not around. 44 games over the past two years.

Rob Mahoney (25:55)

Yet another injury risk on this team.

Justin Varier (25:56)

We talked a lot going into last season about Melton being that perfect combo guard to be around some of the guys that they had at the time. Now Jimmy's in there. We should mention the team was excellent.

Rob Mahoney (26:07)

Yeah.

Justin Varier (26:07)

At the end of regular season.

Rob Mahoney (26:09)

So here's the thing. Like, from the time Jimmy joined the team.

Justin Varier (26:11)

Yeah.

Rob Mahoney (26:12)

They were the equivalent of a top five offense for the whole season. Like the numbers equivalent. A top two defense and a point differential that was right in line with Cleveland and Boston. I think there's a lot of reasons to think that that's not sustainable over the course of a full season. And I think some of it is physical with all these older guys and potential for injury. Somebody's also just mental of like the.

Big Woz (26:33)

Psychological sprint to try to make it to the real playoffs.

Rob Mahoney (26:37)

This is exactly it. They were hard sprinting to the end. You could tell that it took a toll even doing that. They are not going to be on that pace for 82. They're still going to be really good, but they can.

Big Woz (26:47)

The point is they can reach that ceiling when the time calls for it. And so that's why, like, I'm bullish on the warriors this season. I just. Yeah, I would just really love to see a resolution to this Kaminga thing.

Rob Mahoney (27:00)

Yeah.

Justin Varier (27:01)

I like them probably more as a playoff team than as a regular season because actually, if Milton does play as well as he can and Horford is as spry as he looked even last season moving around, which is unbelievable that he's still able to get around because that's a big old boy making those moves and keeping track with much younger players. He and Milton round out the Core 3 in a way that they probably haven't in a little while at this point. And so I just don't know if they'll get there. And if they do get there, what's their seed? Because in the Western Conference, it's going to be a bloodbath. And I do think matchups are going to dictate things. We already saw that last year with Clippers and Nuggets going head to head in round one. Like, we're at A point with the west where matchups might dictate who wins the title more than it had been 10 years ago, when it's like, it's usually best team wins, and we know as soon as it going into the playoffs that that is the dominant team.

Rob Mahoney (27:50)

I think that's true. And then. So then. Then you have to ask, like, what are the matchups that are advantageous for Golden State? They do get to the playoffs fully healthy.

Big Woz (27:57)

Who.

Rob Mahoney (27:58)

Who at the top of the conference do we feel good about them? Matching up with OKC feels a little overwhelming in terms of the length and athleticism. It feels like the kind of matchup where if they could jam up Steph a little bit off ball, it could be incredibly disruptive to their offense. Houston, I think, you know, and we've.

Big Woz (28:15)

Seen Houston is a good matchup for them.

Rob Mahoney (28:18)

I don't know about good. Like, a Houston team with Kevin Durant is a very different proposition ultimately. But if you're going to pick and choose, if you're the warriors, probably rather the Rockets than the Thunder, the Nuggets. I don't know that Al Horford is helping you contain Nikola Jokic. I don't think that's, like, the solution to that matchup, per se.

Big Woz (28:35)

No, Just the physicality part. Like, love Horford, love Draymond. Two of the best defensive bigs of their generation. These guys are older. They can't stop Nikola Jokic.

Rob Mahoney (28:48)

This is the thing, like, as we're talking through that, what I'm hearing is that the warriors are like the Djokovic of the NBA. It's like, there's. There's Alcaraz over here, there's Yannick Sinner over there. They're in a class on their own. No one else can beat Djokovic. Like, I think if you're the warriors, you could go into the season thinking, like, why would we be scared of any of these other Western Clippers? I think they could talk themselves into thinking that they could beat those teams. Right, Right.

Justin Varier (29:12)

Or not.

Rob Mahoney (29:12)

Like the Wolves, too, in that mix. Yeah. You know, a healthy. A healthy crack with Steph, like, maybe we would have a different chance. I think they could talk themselves into.

Justin Varier (29:20)

That, which is why they end up 10th on our rankings, but seventh in the West. Teams that we have because we only have a couple more east teams to go here. Anyone else we want to talk about?

Rob Mahoney (29:30)

Buddy Healed.

Justin Varier (29:31)

Yeah.

Rob Mahoney (29:32)

I think the Jimmy Buddy stuff is not just, like, good comedy, but they're just like a good basketball pairing. And I think that's one of those Things that Steve Kerr should not. Like, tether them together, per se, but find as many minutes as you can for those guys to be on the floor together.

Justin Varier (29:45)

The buddy system.

Rob Mahoney (29:46)

The buddy system.

Justin Varier (29:46)

There you go.

Rob Mahoney (29:47)

We're safer together. I don't know who's going to start, like, if. If I assume that's kind of Pajemski's job to lose at the start of the year. Maybe, but he's worth a look in that. In that spot. D Anthony Melton, if he's healthy. Could be.

Big Woz (29:58)

Look, Jem Ski should be bench.

Rob Mahoney (30:00)

Bench. I mean, they could use the playmaking, to be honest. Yes.

Justin Varier (30:04)

Like Pajinski when he's on. But then you see in the playoffs.

Big Woz (30:07)

When he's not, like, to me, Steph Draymond, Jimmy, that's plenty of playmaking.

Rob Mahoney (30:12)

Yeah.

Big Woz (30:13)

Like, go through your playmaking on the bench against bench units.

Justin Varier (30:17)

Well, from one team that has a lot to figure out before this pod gets published to another one that has a world of possibilities that could happen between now and then. We had the Los Angeles Clippers at number nine. I kind of waffled on how to rank them because I was like, should I factor in that they might not have Kawhi or that something might go awry in between?

Big Woz (30:37)

Now have Kawhi for what?

Justin Varier (30:40)

Well, for a variety of reasons.

Big Woz (30:41)

For injury or.

Justin Varier (30:42)

Or maybe our guy Adam is just.

Big Woz (30:44)

Like, I don't know, guys, I'm here to make a prediction. Kawhi Leonard is not going to be Joe Smith from this team. It's not happening.

Rob Mahoney (30:53)

I also think whatever penalty is issued, it will not be to him.

Justin Varier (30:57)

Probably because it helps get that out of their hair finally. A B. B. Yeah, I. I would expect that as well. But it's going to be looming over the season. I mean, their recent. Not. Maybe not reports, but scuttlebutt that suggests it might wait until after the All Star break, because All Star is in Los Angeles at the Intuit Dome where the Clippers play. And so maybe we'll try to sidestep that. I don't know. But I. I think this is gonna be weird for a while. And ultimately I ended up settling on the fact, like, I have to treat them as if that doesn't exist. And so I rated them highly because I think highly of what they did this off season. But you just never know.

Big Woz (31:35)

I just. To me, they're most important players. Like one. Like, is this going to be a weirder media situation than General Kawhi?

Justin Varier (31:45)

Well, that's actually a great point because I have written down. Is this going to faze Kawhi at all? No, no, I don't think he'll.

Big Woz (31:51)

He doesn't care, I promise you. This is the thing he care the least about his media perception. He just doesn't care. Like, it doesn't factor into his equation of what's, like, important, which is like, getting paid and being the best Hooper he could be.

Rob Mahoney (32:08)

Do you think like James Harden, he doesn't have the Internet.

Justin Varier (32:12)

Wait, what?

Rob Mahoney (32:13)

There's this whole thing about James Harden a couple of years ago where he's like, I don't have the Internet, I.

Justin Varier (32:16)

Don'T go on it. That seems improbable.

Big Woz (32:19)

Harden is another one who's never really tried to craft a public image. And like, if you listen to his interactions with the media, it's always stilted in bullshit. So it's gonna be more Harden being stilted in bullshit. It's really easy. This, the thing about this story with the Clippers. And again, Pablo's my man. I love the Lebatar people. At a certain point, we're powerless in this.

Rob Mahoney (32:50)

Who's we?

Big Woz (32:51)

The media. We could try to make this a big deal, but if Adam and the owners don't make it a big deal, it's not gonna be a big deal.

Rob Mahoney (33:00)

I mean, that part is true. But I do think Pablo has made it a big deal. I think he has made this a major story.

Big Woz (33:05)

He's gotten a lot of attention on it. Yes, but like, in terms of getting.

Rob Mahoney (33:08)

Something done, see, I would say it's more than attention because I think the way that the reporting has come out, it's been a lot of like, here's initial findings, here's a soft rebuttal from the Clippers that does nothing. And then you can see the mounting evidence sort of building a wall around any plausible deniability.

Justin Varier (33:27)

Yeah, the follow up reports were important because I think the initial report was met with some skeptic skepticism, especially from certain media types that were suggesting like, do they have this smoking gun? Is there enough to hold their feet to the fire? Pablo keep coming up with stuff, is basically applying more and more pressure to where that they can't push it under the rug and just say, like, we didn't find anything in our investigation. Even though the investigation was probably what.

Big Woz (33:51)

I would say, where I slightly disagree with you guys, is that Pablo being the only one on this is kind of proof of what I'm saying, like something different.

Rob Mahoney (34:04)

Like somebody has a lot more to say about the reporting landscape than it does about interest in the story.

Big Woz (34:11)

But what I'm saying is like something big would come out which Pablo breaks. It's like, yo, there's something happening over here. And every other part of the media would have been like, here's my part of it. Here's my part of it. It's like, it's Bruce Arthur being like, yo, Uncle Dennis was like asking for the world from the Raptors. That's it. So what I'm saying is like, again, if Adam and them decide we're not doing anything with this, yes, it's over, it's done. There's nothing anybody could do or say about it. And I don't think fans are going to be like, we're boycotting the Clipper games because they got Kawhi Leonard.

Justin Varier (34:47)

They were doing that anyway.

Rob Mahoney (34:50)

It's a soft boycott.

Justin Varier (34:51)

Yeah. I think it speaks to where NBA media gets its information and I'm not even knocking them because this is just how the job works. Like, you get it from MBA types of people. Whereas this is a story that's much more business oriented. It's in the courts, it's on paper, and it's in within one company. And Pavel spent the time in order to develop the trust of the people who actually work there.

Rob Mahoney (35:11)

Yes, it's in Fintech. Like, this is so outside of our normal realm of coverage. And the reporting chain is so different. I do think the things that can force hands here, one, any kind of arbitration, right? Like, it's one thing to have an investigation, it's another thing when there is like binding arbitration with actual concrete findings. That could be something real as far as the public opinion goes. I think a lot of that sways with the rest of the NBA's governors. Like, at what point is it, you know, Mark Cuban out here kind of defending in some ways what the Clippers have done, or at least like saying, oh, this is normal, this is normal. These are standard business practices. At what point do the billionaires break ranks? At what point is this something that is not offensive but like, agitates other owners to the point that they would be pissed off that they would want retribution, they wouldn't want actual results from this.

Big Woz (36:01)

So this is the thing to me is that we've seen them sort of buck back against each other before. Prime example, LeBron in a decision. And they're like, you know what? We're disallowing signing trades and that can't happen again. Right? Or, you know, just KD leaving okc. It's like, oh, we gotta come up with the Derrick Rhodes rule or we Gotta. They always react when they feel like they've been wronged somehow by the system. Nobody's moving yet.

Justin Varier (36:39)

I do think, and I don't mean to be Pollyannish about this, I do think this is a case where, like, the public actually has power here. And not to make it more of a political thing, but, like, the reason why Jimmy Kimmel was put back on the air was, like, the people affected the bottom line or threatened the bottom line of Disney. Whereas, like, I think if enough people threaten the bottom line of the NBA, then it will motivate.

Big Woz (36:59)

I would disagree. I would say that wasn't public pressure. That's powerful. People in the industry being like, I'm off your Marvel shit. I'm off of. I'm not working on that. I'm not writing that. I'm not starring in that. I'm not directing that. People with actual power and influence moving the needle. Not us plebs at the bottom like the Clippers. They went to the second round three times since they got Kawhi Leonard. I'm sick of their cheating.

Justin Varier (37:25)

But to that point, though, if enough owners think that the bottom line is going to be owners.

Big Woz (37:31)

Yes, yes. But I just.

Justin Varier (37:32)

But that's people being like. It's almost what the story you believe in. And if you have. It's a group of 30 people, 30 individuals, essentially. If they. If like five of them believe enough of the public discourse, then that has effect.

Big Woz (37:47)

Yeah. Again, if we get like. If we, like, sort of drill down to it, Right. Like, cap circumvention exists so that there could be, quote, unquote, even distribution of talent around the league.

Justin Varier (38:02)

Right.

Big Woz (38:02)

It's like, that's the reason we have the cap. It's like to control the spending that you can do to acquire talent.

Rob Mahoney (38:09)

Yes.

Big Woz (38:09)

Right. Like, it's not baseball. There needs to, like, somebody would have to show that the Clippers, like, disproportionately held the talent via this cap circumvent. It's like, that's what I'm saying. Like, I don't doubt that shady shit is happening. I'm actually pretty convinced that what they did was shady.

Rob Mahoney (38:33)

Yeah.

Big Woz (38:33)

And not above board in a way that it's just like, everybody would be just, oh, open the books, the communications, blah, blah, blah. I'm convinced of that. But I'm talking about, were you connected to where it's effed up, where it's like the Clippers gained unfair advantages that ruined the results for a bunch of other fan bases. It's just not there.

Rob Mahoney (38:57)

Right.

Justin Varier (38:57)

They were able to re sign Derrick Jones Jr. Or something like something like that on the fringes. It probably was. But I mean just getting Kawhine in the first place retain that would be.

Rob Mahoney (39:05)

The undue advantage is getting Kawhi which.

Justin Varier (39:08)

Is a bottom line proposition in its own way.

Big Woz (39:10)

Fans would have to about it.

Justin Varier (39:11)

Well, it's also they were the only.

Big Woz (39:13)

Other team in the running.

Rob Mahoney (39:14)

Let me tell you. They already are.

Justin Varier (39:15)

It's like Steve Ballmer was definitely paying for that shiny new arena but like Kawhi helped, you know. Sure. He's definitely putting a lot of money into that system just by being there still in the second run.

Rob Mahoney (39:25)

So I think we are and we're look we're waiting into untimely news pegs by the time this publishes to the point that I think we need to reserve the right to just ADR this whole segment. We'll just redub ourselves having a different argument as the new new results and information come out over the next couple weeks. But I do think we're not going to hear substantial movement on this four months.

Justin Varier (39:46)

Should we just do one of your New York Times questions? But as the Clippers, you know, he's hardened. I'm zoo.

Rob Mahoney (39:55)

I honestly would like that bit even more.

Justin Varier (39:57)

You're John Collins.

Rob Mahoney (39:58)

I would love to be John Collins.

Justin Varier (40:00)

Well, as a team we should talk about this team on paper because the, the offseason was very interesting. I mean I don't know if it's the Expendables, but there's just a lot of veteran talent on this team at this point. It's unlike anything I've seen in recent years because it's not just like the Lakers era, Carl Malone, Gary Payton team where it's just like one last run. It's like it's like a lot of freaking guys. Basically the whole team like so Chris, between Chris Paul, Brooke Lopez, Nicholas Batum who's been in the league like 17 years, which goes unnoticed because he just looks so fresh and dewy. James Harden, Bradley Beal, Kawhi Leonard. There are 96 seasons of experience just between the two of them. And then the guys beyond him, Zubot Dunn, Derek Stone Jr. John Collins and Bogey. Those are all eight plus years veterans, all vets. And that's another 43 years. So yeah, it's one of the wisest team.

Rob Mahoney (40:49)

I don't know.

Justin Varier (40:49)

I don't know if that necessarily how much that will be effective when you have a team like the Thunder where everybody's like 22. True. But there's something to it I mean.

Rob Mahoney (40:59)

It'S an older team.

Justin Varier (41:00)

It.

Rob Mahoney (41:01)

I think what separates them from the warriors, in my mind, and this was sort of an either or for me in the ranking. It's like, what do you do with Golden State and the Clippers? I think the warriors are better positioned as a playoff team. I think the Clippers, even despite the age of that roster because of the depth, are better positioned as a regular season team. And so will Golden State get the chance to get to the playoffs in one piece and prove how good they are? We'll see. I think the Clippers are. Is going to be right there on the page. Like, this was already a very successful team. I think they're going to have to be successful in different ways, though, with this roster because of all that change. Like, if you look at last year's team, they won 50 games. Incredible with the roster that they had and their ability to specifically dominate on defense with pressure and with Zoo's coverage on the backline, incredible stuff. But you look at that team, the top six guys in minutes played, 1 and 2, Harden and Zoo, no problem. They're critical parts of this team. Even still after that, Norm Powell, Derrick Jones Jr. Chris Dunn, Amir Coffey. Two of those guys are gone. The other two are less important now than they were last season. To the point that, I don't know. I couldn't tell you right now what Chris Dunn's role is going to be. I could tell you what I would. You know, I would like him to continue to start because I think that's the best, like, balance.

Big Woz (42:10)

Still on that bench.

Rob Mahoney (42:10)

He's still on that bench.

Big Woz (42:11)

He's gonna get some minutes.

Rob Mahoney (42:13)

And that's the thing is, like, I don't. They're gonna have to rework their defense. They're gonna have to reimagine kind of how they were playing. But Jeff Van Gundy did such a great job with it last time around, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt that they will find ways to be a successful defense again.

Big Woz (42:26)

You got Zube. You can be a damn successful defense. And to Rob's point, like, even when I look at it, it's like, Chris Paul, you not gonna play more than 12 minutes a game. Brook Lopez is Zube's backup. Like, these roles that these guys have are more than manageable. That's what I think. It's different where, like, you know, depending on injury, luck and all of this stuff, like, we could see Draymond, Jimmy STEPH Averaging over 35 minutes a game. That's that's not. That's not great, you know, in terms of the wear and tear for those guys. Whereas the Clippers veteran guys, nobody's going to be asked to do that much heavy lifting. So, yeah, the depth is different, man.

Justin Varier (43:12)

Probably one of the best benches in the league. If they can sort out the rotation in a way that makes sense. Going to be a lot of ball handlers to kind of wade through because you'd assume Bill might want to run some second units. Chris Paul obviously is going to want his hands on the ball. If he does play it, how much does he play? And that's kind of like a. An unsung little story here is like the whole Kwai situation to disrupt what was setting up to be a farewell tour to one of our guys. And I imagine Chris Paul was very intentional as he is about everything about picking the Clippers as his final team.

Rob Mahoney (43:39)

He's like the comptroller of Lob City now.

Justin Varier (43:42)

That's right. The city councilman, you know, year 21.

Rob Mahoney (43:47)

Yeah.

Justin Varier (43:48)

So it's going to be a little bit more muddled, probably, than what was a nice little storyline for them, but there's just. There's a lot of options here, and I do like that. It's also leaning into their size advantage that they already had by basically not only getting a. If there's anyone bigger than Zoo, it might be Brook Lopez. They're probably 1A, 1B in some order. And then you have John Collins as a. Like, as a power four, basically getting a chance to play competitive basketball for the first time in three years.

Rob Mahoney (44:14)

It's been a long time. I. I mean, I love everything that they can throw out there. Some. Some combinations I'm excited about. One you just hit on Justin, which is. I think if Chris Paul and Brad Beal can play together a fair amount, and I would love for them to come off the bench together. We haven't seen Beal play with, like, a true playmaker of that caliber since John Wall.

Justin Varier (44:32)

Yeah.

Rob Mahoney (44:33)

And so getting him off the ball more, playing into his strengths in that regard, I'll be really excited about. I think James Harden and John Collins. Collins feels super important to this team. Structurally. He's a kind of player they haven't really had before. I mean, I guess you could argue. Argue. Derrick Jones Jr. Is a lob thread in a similar way, but he's so limited offensively otherwise. John Collins can handle. He can. He can. He can shoot, he can finish. He's really flexible, moving in and around the basket in a way that I Think is really exciting playing off of Harden and all the attention he draws. And then Brook Lopez and his Disneyland season pass. I mean, thrilling times for everyone involved.

Justin Varier (45:07)

Oh, man.

Big Woz (45:08)

Yeah, I like the John Collins deal. Cause they kind of. It felt like they were doubling down on their defensive identity from last year. While also, like, this guy is not, you know, he's not a Chris Dunn or Derrick Jones on offense. Like, he could still do things, but, you know, it's adding just a little bit more physicality, a little bit more umph at the four. Then, look, Derrick Jones, man, he did Yeoman's work. Did a great job for them last year. He even did a little bit of rim protection at times for them. Like, he did a lot. I just think Collins brings a different dynamic on the boards and stuff like that. And so, yeah, I love the depth. I love the Collins move. I'm just, like you said, I'm fascinated to see how they fit everything around this regular season. And I do, I do really hope they maintain that defensive posture that they took where it's like, yo, we're going to. We're going to suffocate people in an offense. Look, we got Kawhi, we got James Harden. We could put things together offensively, but defensively, we're killing people every night.

Justin Varier (46:09)

A lot of guys. But one of those instances where I don't think anyone will mind taking some plays off, taking some games off.

Big Woz (46:15)

Taking some games off.

Rob Mahoney (46:17)

Especially like Chris Paul proved he can play 82. Like, it was an incredible achievement.

Justin Varier (46:21)

Wild.

Rob Mahoney (46:22)

Does he have to do it again? I hope not. You know, like, again, they're going to need to balance that rotation over the course. Course of the season because there are. There are not a lot of young legs here like Janik Conan. Niederhauser is not going to play. That's right. One of the surprise picks of the first round. Like, there's just no room for guys in that position here anymore.

Justin Varier (46:40)

You big Conan guy.

Rob Mahoney (46:41)

You know what? I'm going to find out.

Big Woz (46:43)

Okay.

Justin Varier (46:43)

I'm.

Rob Mahoney (46:43)

I'm going to find out in. In the G League, probably.

Justin Varier (46:45)

Okay. Well, a team that has a lot of young legs and it's hoping that they have a little bit more experience underneath them in order to make a push here. Number eight. Your Orlando Magic went through a big old overhaul in the off season, bringing Desmond Bain in. They put their money where their mouth is. We've been talking about when this team is going to take the leap. They're ready for the leap. Unfortunately, the expectations come fast and furiously because this team is going to get very expensive starting next season, the season after this one, when the Paolo Bankero extension kicks in. So they're kind of on the clock asap.

Rob Mahoney (47:18)

They are on. I mean, this is the funny thing about waiting to make the move is like if you make the move early, maybe you take away some developmental seasons. Maybe you don't get the draft picks that you would have gotten if you had slow played it and the expectations come sooner. But if you wait as the Magic have to kind of make the trade specifically for shooting, something that everyone knew that they needed and wanted to do, there's still the buildup of expectations. There's still a mounting pressure, I think, for this team to be good in part because everything else seems to be there. And so now that they have the shooting, if it doesn't work, someone has to answer the question of why I'm.

Big Woz (47:53)

I'm extremely bullish on this team, as you guys know. I just think Bane is such a perfect bet to make because he's so proven and he's played in the context of I'm playing off of a John Morant, like a ball dominant kind of guard. So it's not as if for him to get off, he needs to have the ball constantly. But he's also, you know, had to step in because Ja missed so many games. So he has both of those things working for him in terms of like being able to play off of ball dominance elsewhere and being able to step into that role when it's called for. And his shooting is not theoretical. Like this guy. Oh yeah, he's going to shoot the leather off of the ball, man. And I think they're top four. Bane, Wagner, Jalen, Suggs and Paolo. Like, to me, when you think about the youth, the athleticism, the like, the motor, like collectively, we're talking about dudes that play so freaking hard. I'm just really excited about what they could do around that man. And it's just the age of these guys that I love the most because they can be relentless. Like, you can see them maintaining it for a whole regular season and racking up wins that way.

Justin Varier (49:10)

One of the rare instances where I like this team, I like the move. But oddly enough, Bane is the one I'm least worried about going into this kind of leap season where it's like, I kind of know what I'm going to get from him. And I think he's a problem solver in the way that they've always needed. Like, he'll do a little bit of the on ball stuff, you need him to.

Rob Mahoney (49:27)

Don't need that. Okay.

Justin Varier (49:28)

He could just play off ball and do that forceful enough and meaty and mighty enough on the defensive end to fit that identity. Because even despite everything that happened last year, still second on defense, this team.

Rob Mahoney (49:39)

That was not the problem.

Justin Varier (49:40)

But then I'm like, oh, is, is Paulo going to take the leap? Is Franz going to shoot it at any degree of consistency and is Suggs going to be healthy? And oh, by the way, is he going to shoot it as well?

Rob Mahoney (49:51)

Well, let's, let's take those problems one, one by one. As far as Paolo. Yeah, I think, I mean, he is the differentiating factor for this team. I think, you know, you bring in Banes, there's a lot of attention on that. But really, what shooting does, what a shooter like Desmond Bane does, is in theory allow Paolo Banchero to be the best version of Paolo Banchero. And I think there are two things that he does that have kind of held him back offensively from being like a true young star in the league. One of them, he just settles too much. Like he hits the first wall of the defense and he gets a lot of pressure, in fairness, and he just settles for too many 16, 17 footers over the top of the defense that he's not like the best at. And so that drags down ultimately, what is the biggest and most imposing physical force on the floor. Like, he should be able to get inside more often with better spacing. Hopefully he'll be able to do that. I think the other thing is because of all that pressure and the way that defenses collapse on the magic, he holds the ball like a little too long trying to read what's going on and trying to make like he's trying to make the right play. But the result of that is it kills clock and it leads to a lot, like more turnovers than it should. And so you put one or two, like one dead eye shooter in Desmond Bane and anyone else who's hitting any shots out there, all of that math changes, all of those dynamics change, and then all of a sudden you're seeing a version of Paolo that hopefully can be getting to the basket in the line even more consistently than he does.

Big Woz (51:09)

Yeah, see, that's why I'm, I'm not worried about Paolo. I think if he's able, if he's allowed to operate in space, he's going to do well.

Rob Mahoney (51:17)

Yeah, right. He's already really good.

Big Woz (51:20)

I mean, to me, the two questions are Franz Wagner, where it's like Make a shot. Because if you. Because if he does, this thing is like super scary. And Jalen Suggs just staying on the floor. Cause I think he proved last year when he played, he was just, he had just ascended to a whole other level when he finally played. So to me it's just Franz Wagner man, like actually understanding the stakes now because that changes things too. And him like you know, coming into his own as a more well rounded offensive player.

Rob Mahoney (51:56)

Can I. I want to give one reason for optimism on Franz Wagner's Aaron Jumpshot.

Justin Varier (52:01)

Not even Eurobasket or he's a God.

Rob Mahoney (52:03)

I mean look that everyone playing for that Germany team is a totally different player over there. And Franz is already a great NBA player. I thought his most successful stretch was on the ball last season with all the injuries, like really, really impressive stuff. The jumper was not necessarily the reason why over the longer term and I think the hitch that that was really developing over the back part of the year, very, very worrisome. But the way that hitch is like coming to be more prominent tells me this is like. I mean it's a deeply psychological thing happening. It is a guy who is feeling the pressure to hit those shots because nobody else on the team can and, and like kind of buckling under it a little bit for as good as he is in every other dimension of the game. I wonder if adding someone like Bane who it's like that is our designated shooter. This guy is not, you would hope Kentavius, Caldwell Pope coming in and the percentage suddenly cratering like this is a star level shooter who's going to absorb a lot of those shots. And now Franz can just be a shooter and not. Not a guy who has to hit that shot. I wonder if that relief might actually help him a little bit.

Justin Varier (53:03)

A little bit of stage fright, Little bit of.

Rob Mahoney (53:05)

I mean I don't know how else to explain the fact that he was good and then all of a sudden two back to back sub 30% shooting seasons in a row.

Justin Varier (53:11)

Well, you're right though. He feel he felt like a different player when Paulo was out and he had the keys to kind of run things himself. Perhaps it's as simple as comfortability and like how he's getting those shots. But I think you're right that Franz is probably the start of the chain reaction in order to fit figure things out. Because I think Paulo plays on a different level when he has the space. The space comes from Franz being aggressive and being able to step out and hit shots in the playoff games where he's been able to do that, you've seen Paulo take a leap, be a little bit more careful with the ball. And then Paulo being able to create filters down to the Suggs types. And you saw that last year where Suggs was basically the main guy for a long stretches because both Paolo and.

Big Woz (53:47)

Franz were out and was doing a damn good job.

Rob Mahoney (53:50)

By the way rules, he's a baller.

Justin Varier (53:52)

But then you look at like the finer details and it's just like that was another poor shooting season from Jalen Suggs. After what was practically a 40% 3 point shooting season the season before. It seemed like he turned things around. I think he's still a good shooter.

Big Woz (54:04)

Me too. I think having to. Having to try to be like a Dame Lillard type, I mean they had.

Rob Mahoney (54:12)

Him way out there.

Big Woz (54:13)

That is not suited to his skill set. I think. I think just being a guy who's catching and shooting with like a decent amount of space, I think he'll be fine.

Rob Mahoney (54:23)

Again.

Justin Varier (54:23)

Yes, to that point. 7 assists last season from Paolo Banchero. That's Suggs taking the shots there. 82 the previous season. So obviously having the helping hand I think will help him because he needs to be set up. He's not taking a lot of step back. Kobe white shots.

Rob Mahoney (54:40)

This is the thing, like as you mentioned with their core four guys, like they're almost like built in a lab to appeal to my basketball sensibilities. The way those four guys fit together.

Justin Varier (54:49)

Smash mouth basketball.

Rob Mahoney (54:50)

I mean it is smash mouth. It's the intensity. It's like, it's the way that Franz Wagner drives into people. It's the way that Suggs will pick up anybody. It's the way they don't back down from any challenge. Like there is a combination of interlocking skill and temperament that I think just really, really works. If those four guys can stay healthy.

Big Woz (55:08)

Yeah, they're like Detroit without the mania. Right. Like they don't have well balanced Detroit Pistons or emotionally maturity or like you know, a Ron Holland. But they had. That's another young, a young team that like they found themselves when they discovered like, oh, we're like bigger, stronger, faster than everybody. We should lean into that as our identity. And so, you know, that's another thing I like about them. Like they kind of know who they are. And now it's just like, all right, these glaring weaknesses have started to be addressed in like a major way.

Rob Mahoney (55:41)

So I thought that was part of the problem last season too where they had all of these kind of overlapping injuries where one of their core guys or multiple core guys were out at the same time. To say nothing about other role players who were out. It's like they did have. They did know who they were and they were still guarding people. And it's like this isn't working because we can't. Like their half court offense was abominable for most of the season. Like they just could not score. And there's a frustration that comes with that of like we are playing our way and we're still losing these games because we don't have the firepower. But then you put everyone back. I don't think there's any question about the clarity of purpose and style and identity. Like the Magic are still the Magic.

Justin Varier (56:17)

Right. We have the essential question down here is the Magic will win the East. If we kind of explained all the more finer details of it. I think top line takeaway is like.

Rob Mahoney (56:25)

Hit some shots, hit some shots.

Justin Varier (56:27)

And I think without sacrificing the defense.

Rob Mahoney (56:29)

Yes. And within that, if hitting those shots allows Paolo to take that job.

Big Woz (56:33)

Exactly.

Rob Mahoney (56:34)

Yeah.

Justin Varier (56:34)

Well, I guess combination wise I assume Wendell Carter would get the first crack at being the center because they need the offensive pop.

Rob Mahoney (56:41)

Yeah.

Justin Varier (56:41)

Any worries there?

Rob Mahoney (56:42)

I like Wendell. Solid player. His three also has just like kind of abandoned him. It just has left him as a player and I think not having we.

Big Woz (56:51)

Can call him a stretch big anymore.

Rob Mahoney (56:53)

Maybe not a stretch but like can do other things like good enough defensively to hold it down. Works offensively isn't like as big big as you would like your big center to be if he's not going to be stretched. So that's a problem. The other problem is like Mo Wagner who tore his ACL last November, December. I'm blanking on when exactly we'll have to see kind of like what his availability is going to be really important. Part of their team was in the running for six man like one of the highest scoring reserves in the league last season before he went down. And if he's out for a continued significant like period of time, then it's Windell and Goga and Jonathan Isaac playing more than 12, playing five, which you know, not without its merits.

Justin Varier (57:32)

Yeah, I do love at the end of last season, not the two seasons ago where they like went to that to the end of the season is like we're finally let it loose and.

Big Woz (57:40)

It just didn't make a difference.

Justin Varier (57:42)

It's nice to have that option. But the whole Isaac experience is interesting for a lot of different reasons. We mentioned that they were second defensively. They ended up being a Negative in net rating overall.

Rob Mahoney (57:54)

Crazy.

Justin Varier (57:55)

And that's because the offense was 27th.

Rob Mahoney (57:58)

This is the thing. If they just get to league average offense, they are a dominant team.

Justin Varier (58:02)

Yeah.

Rob Mahoney (58:03)

So that, that's where the bar is. And it's, it's very achievable for them. Definitely doable.

Justin Varier (58:08)

So I think we all agree they're like, after Cavs and Knicks, they're the next team.

Big Woz (58:12)

And I feel like they're knocking on the door if everything breaks right.

Rob Mahoney (58:17)

Yes. All right, can I name one more guy on this front? This feels like a really critical Anthony Black season because one name we haven't mentioned, they brought in Tyus Jones as another backup guard. A Magic team that has both Tyus Jones and Desmond Bain doesn't have to play Anthony Black at all. And so now he's in a position where it's like. And he, he's just had like such a weird, like fits and starts kind of start to his career. He has to justify his minutes. Like he has to earn that time and we'll see if he's able. If he's cut out for that or not. I don't know. I don't know if he's there.

Big Woz (58:52)

Jonathan Kaminga could be, or perhaps they're.

Justin Varier (58:55)

Amend Thompson where it's like, we tried you as a ball handler, but now you're just going to be our wreck. Shit up defender.

Rob Mahoney (59:00)

Could be interesting.

Justin Varier (59:02)

All right, next team on the list, number seven, the Los Angeles Lakers, who if we cut to them, let's say like early July, it would have been like the Donald Glover and community walks into the door and everything's on fire thing that I love bring up once a month, practically LeBron miffed. How dare you lean into someone who isn't me and build the team around him. The team isn't enough. Not enough defense. We saw this.

Big Woz (59:30)

What is this team?

Justin Varier (59:31)

It's a calamity.

Big Woz (59:32)

And then all of a sudden, Luka.

Justin Varier (59:34)

Doncic takes some thirst traps. And it's a whole different situation. And I think it's warranted. I think him just looking svelte just completely changed the face of the team. And it also sounds like based on the reporting, Dan Woicke and other guys, like they're starting to think about the team a little bit differently. After he signed the extension, after he got in shape, showed that he's serious about things. And so, I don't know, I'm kind.

Big Woz (59:57)

Of buying it a little bit. I'm waiting. I want to see how it ultimately does coalesce. Cause I think Even the version of Luka that we got on the Lakers is a great regular season player. Last year, sure. But in the playoffs, you saw like, it just wasn't good enough for what playoff defenses can bring to bear when you consider the roster that was around him. Right, right. Um, so I just want to see what the new and improved Luka actually means on the floor. I actually want to see what's different. Like, is he actually getting to the paint more?

Rob Mahoney (60:40)

That's the one. Are you getting all the way to the basket?

Big Woz (60:42)

All the way to the basket. Cause that's the thing that suffered the most and it's in the numbers. Like, this guy straight up just wasn't getting the paint touches that he was. So we'll see if that's the case. And then, you know, my guy Yovan Buha was watching his show and he's like LeBron dominating Luka. Guaranteed three starters. And then the backcourt minutes, it's Rui, Marcus Smart, Gabe Vincent, Austin and Austin Reaves. Like, how do you balance? Obviously it feels like Austin is a made man over there, so he's going to start.

Justin Varier (61:23)

So who's, who's going to guard guards?

Big Woz (61:25)

Who's guarding anybody with speed on this team? And I guess that's Marcus Smart, bro.

Rob Mahoney (61:31)

Does he know that?

Justin Varier (61:33)

I think he hopes that's his role.

Rob Mahoney (61:35)

I, I, I think he will probably get that crack just because they do need someone to at least try it and like, Austin is not cut out for that kind of role. Rui is not. Luka's not going to do it. This is why, you know, ultimately one of the reasons I'm bullish on the Lakers is they have had time now to reimagine themselves as a Luka team.

Big Woz (61:56)

Yes.

Rob Mahoney (61:56)

Some of that is personnel based. Some of just going in, knowing that's what you are. They, I don't think they're going to recapture that, like, February stretch of really good defense. Like, that's not who they are. They don't have, as we just said, point of attack defenders, they don't have lock and trail guys who are going to chase shooters around screens. And on the back line is Deandre Ayton, who, for whatever attractive qualities he may have as a player, protecting the rim is not one of them.

Justin Varier (62:23)

It's not dominating on these defensive.

Rob Mahoney (62:25)

That is not the area in which he is dominating. So that's not who they're going to be. But their offense is going to be great because Luka Doncic is going to be great. Like I am, I am buying the thirst traps. I think he's going to win mvp. Like, I just think it's going to be that kind of season.

Justin Varier (62:39)

Oddly enough, they are built defensively to guard the Dallas Mavericks because they're all power forwards. It seems like those are the guys that they have available to them. But I think you're right. I think the offense could be push your rig back type good if Luca is as sharp as he looked in Euro basket, which he always does, but this time he's had a little bit of gusto to his play. I think the other part of this is just how much is LeBron going to be engaged in the situation? I think he will ultimately come around because he realizes the opportunity, he doesn't have many of them left. And also like this was the best opportunity on the board after he opted in.

Big Woz (63:12)

Not even close. Yeah, like opting out, save for being like, yo, I'll go take a mid level for a contender. Yeah, you weren't like you didn't have great options to get paid and be on a contender. That just wasn't the case. This is a good team. It's just, you know, not balanced in terms of offense and defense.

Rob Mahoney (63:37)

They have a little more to prove than some of the teams we have yet to talk about in the west just because they are reinventing a thing and, and Luka is coming back from his injuries last season and needs to prove that he is still the player who could take a team to the NBA Finals. I just happen to believe in that stuff and I think, I think they're going to be right there in the mix with some of these great teams in the west. And Luka is a huge reason why I think it is. Can he. The question is, can he get to the basket more consistently? Can he penetrate past the first line of defense without relying on the step back so much? And also if he is lighter and in better shape, just carrying the load over the course of full games is going to work in his favor a little bit better. And also hopefully he can stay healthier as a result of that that stuff.

Justin Varier (64:16)

I also think the question is how much does his buy in? And the Lakers projecting that they're now willing to be a little less precious about the cap space going forward. How much does that factor into what they're willing to change on the fly over the course of the season? Now it's a little tricky because LeBron makes so much money, can't really do much with him. Austin Reeves you would want to keep because if LeBron walks next off season Then Reeves is your guy. You've built him up to be like the shining boy wonder of this team. If Luka himself isn't that, are you more willing though to change things on the fringes? They only really have two first round draft picks owed at this point, which is wild to say because we've been counting Lakers draft picks for what seems like half a decade. There are options here on the board. I, I, I, I mean, we talked in the past about Andrew Wiggins as someone they've had perhaps an interest in, but there are better versions of Andrew Wiggins, but that's what they need, a wing type of player who, that they can ask to guard people, because as we mentioned, it's defense first and foremost.

Big Woz (65:12)

Yeah, they need somebody who's closer to Alexander Walker than a Wiggins.

Rob Mahoney (65:18)

I think that might be true.

Big Woz (65:19)

You know, like somebody who, because so for Marcus Smart, who we haven't seen play since what, 22?

Rob Mahoney (65:26)

He's played.

Justin Varier (65:27)

He played at the end of last season with the Wizards, but he was paced out. How much did he finish games? He looked good for what it's worth in those games, but it's like, but.

Rob Mahoney (65:34)

He'S looked good of the, when he has played over the last couple of years, he's looked good guarding threes and fours. Like he's good at playing up. That's, that's what his skill set is.

Big Woz (65:43)

Even his last year in Boston, you know, coming off of defensive player of the year and all of that, kind.

Rob Mahoney (65:50)

Of not my defensive player of the.

Big Woz (65:51)

Year, not my vote in Boston, he was carrying a bigger load than anything close he's going to be asked to do with the Lakers. To me, it's just like, does he actually still even have the legs for it? Cause like, nobody wants you to dribble and take shots at the end of the shot clock and step backs and be anybody's leader. He don't gotta be any of that in la, but like, can he streamline whatever he has left in his body to this defensive stopper type of role?

Justin Varier (66:22)

You know, the case for was that he just didn't really have a clear fit in Memphis because he got hurt. And then it's just like things were a little bit more mixed. They'd have so many guys that they didn't really need him, they didn't rely on him. He kind of got shuffled around a bit, ended up in Washington as a, as a contract dump, didn't play much there. And so like, was it circumstance more than did he lose something? I would guess it's a little bit of both at this point. But if there's enough of the old Marcus mark defensively, that's really all they need him for.31, because there's enough offense.

Rob Mahoney (66:51)

I think there's. This is another thing I think is working in the Lakers favor. There's just, like, a lot of motivating factors right there. Is Luca on his revenge tour, a guy who, I guess you didn't believe he would be motivated enough, so you traded him to give him the ultimate slight and, like, chip on his shoulder for the rest of his life? Sure. LeBron eager to still prove that he can be the best version of himself at this age. He can be Mark Smart, trying to show he can still be that guy with a chance to compete for something. Even deandre Ayton, who, again, I like, is not a perfect player. But the comparison point is Jackson Hayes. Like, that is.

Justin Varier (67:23)

That's where the bar is also playing for, to get off the minimum cycle. That's the next phase of this.

Rob Mahoney (67:29)

So there's a lot of guys who are, like, eager and in positions to prove something to somebody, whether it's to themselves or to, you know, the public or other teams or agents or whatever. But, like, there's a lot of guys playing for things, and that's. That can be an exciting mix.

Justin Varier (67:43)

How do you guys feel about the Luca PR blitz? Because in addition to him actually looking good and wanting to sell that, there's been a lot of, like, Luca and in traditional media that typically at this point in our cycle where, like, people aren't doing magazine cover stories or softball.

Rob Mahoney (68:02)

Like, why isn't he on with the Kelsey brothers? Yeah, a little bit.

Justin Varier (68:05)

It's a little traditional, and it's a lot like, I know too much about his business manager, in part because she's just everywhere. A classic case of, like, after the trade, he's. Luka's doing a sit down with Malika Andrews, and they're talking about, oh, God, it was so sad, yada yada. And I threw my phone, and she's like, here's the phone. It's right here. It's broken.

Rob Mahoney (68:27)

You want to see it?

Justin Varier (68:28)

It's just like, on the one hand, I get it. He's taking his opportunity to be the golden boy because he was never that with Dallas. He never really seemed, like, wanted to be in the public eye.

Big Woz (68:37)

I don't think he's taking. I think he's taking a responsibility. That's what it feels like to me. He's becoming a fucking man. Like, you are the Face of the biggest team in the NBA. Like, it's your job to lead this team, to lead the league, to be who you are.

Justin Varier (68:55)

This is what it means to be the superstar of the Los Angeles. It's a magic thing. Yeah.

Big Woz (69:00)

To me, he's finally stepping into the role that we've all been like, bro, it's you, right? Like, go out and take your job seriously. Every facet of it. That's what it feels like to me. Not a guy who's like, oh, I'd like to get my Q rating up. It's like, oh, like, this is what comes with the actual job, not whatever the fuck I was doing in Dallas before.

Rob Mahoney (69:21)

I mean, that was also pretty good. For the most part.

Big Woz (69:24)

On the court, it's hard to say it wasn't pretty good, but again, like, we're happy about the. You know. What was that reality show? The Black Swan?

Rob Mahoney (69:33)

What was the Black Swan?

Big Woz (69:35)

Yeah, I think it was the Black Swan with a. Where the person got, like, a makeover, basically.

Rob Mahoney (69:41)

Okay.

Big Woz (69:41)

You know, like, they got plastic surgery.

Rob Mahoney (69:43)

It's a she's all that situation.

Big Woz (69:44)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That kind of situation.

Justin Varier (69:46)

But with surgery.

Big Woz (69:47)

Yeah. For me, it's. You know. And the same thing with Zion. It's almost an indictment, bro. Like, NBA Finals, conference finals, max contracts. None of that was enough to make you want to take an off season seriously.

Justin Varier (70:03)

You need personal vengeance. Yeah.

Rob Mahoney (70:05)

Putting Luca and Zion in the same bucket.

Big Woz (70:07)

Well, no, not right. Luka is more excusable because he was actually achieving.

Rob Mahoney (70:11)

Yes. Yeah.

Big Woz (70:12)

While fat.

Rob Mahoney (70:13)

Where Zion was underachieving was like, have amazing playoff performances and go on long playoff runs. That's all he did the whole time he was there.

Justin Varier (70:21)

Sure.

Big Woz (70:22)

But we could. But we could draw a straight line to his lack of seriousness in that category, to the failures that happen where he's getting pantsed on defense on national TV against Boston and running out of gas and stuff like that.

Rob Mahoney (70:38)

Right.

Big Woz (70:40)

Like, it's great that he's doing it now, but it's like, you know, Nico, Harrison had a point. Not that the trade was good.

Justin Varier (70:47)

Yes.

Big Woz (70:48)

But he had a point.

Justin Varier (70:49)

Yes. I will just say, circling back to this PR strategy, I just want to talk about it. For whatever reason, I don't think it's in his best interest, though, to be so out there, because I just don't think he's interesting. And I don't think the polished Michael Jordan approach to PR strategy works anymore, because I think people can see through it. And I think, like, he's taking a very stock thing where he's just giving access but not giving anything. I still don't know who Luca is, personally.

Rob Mahoney (71:17)

Yeah.

Justin Varier (71:18)

Like, it almost works the opposite way. I'm like, what are you hiding?

Rob Mahoney (71:21)

Like, I mean, I think we know who he is, and it's a young guy who plays a lot of video games and just moved to Los Angeles. Like, it's not that you too. Well, the video games less so these days. Also not the young part, but I don't know that it's more complicated than that. And I think ultimately maybe you're giving people too much credit for actually reading these stories. Like, it's just, it's a tough sell on some, on some of these big, glossy features sometimes.

Justin Varier (71:46)

But the fact that he's trying is different because he didn't try, am I wrong?

Rob Mahoney (71:50)

In Dallas, this is definitely a level of outreach and I think proactivity on the media front from Luka, that is very different.

Big Woz (71:56)

Yeah, I, I, I read his, his media style is just, he's new still.

Justin Varier (72:01)

Yeah.

Big Woz (72:02)

Even this far into his career, this prominent player that he's been. He's just not used to it. He's not used to doing it. So he's not going to be good at it automatically. I don't see why he can't. If he continues to stay open, I don't see why he can't one day do a better version of whatever the fuck Bron was doing on McAfee that day. Right.

Rob Mahoney (72:26)

What was Bron doing on McAfee that day?

Big Woz (72:27)

He was doing a lot. I was insane, but I know it was bullshit. Right. But, like, it's a recognition of, like, oh, let me try to do something different and interesting, I think, Luke. But this is a guy who's been doing it for 25 years. Right. Understanding the, the sort of nuances of just like, I can't just sit down with Malika. Like, in order to make a splash, I gotta do the McAfee thing. But again, that's somebody who's been doing the media manipulation game for two decades plus. Luka, which is literally his first summer ever.

Justin Varier (73:01)

Yeah.

Big Woz (73:01)

He's just like, oh, Look, I'm on TV.

Justin Varier (73:03)

It took LeBron going to Miami and experiencing the backlash to really.

Big Woz (73:07)

Yes, it's true.

Justin Varier (73:08)

Figure that out as well. He was always more of a polished.

Big Woz (73:10)

Character and personality, but he was definitely more unvarnished.

Justin Varier (73:15)

Less careful.

Big Woz (73:16)

Yes. Less careful than after the Miami thing. But then that all comes around in the same way we saw with Kobe where he was doing the fake Michael thing when he first came in, which was so Fucking annoying. And then, you know, he got into all of that trouble, and then he came back on the other side of that. Of just like, the fuck you.

Rob Mahoney (73:36)

Black Mamba needed a new PR strategy.

Big Woz (73:39)

After that one, you know what I mean? Like. Like, it's. It's part of the evolution, I think.

Rob Mahoney (73:44)

Yeah.

Justin Varier (73:44)

I just would like to know one anecdote about Luka Doncic. Like, I don't know anything about him personally. Like, just not like. Like, I work hard and I play well. It's like, I don't. I own a fucking boa constrictor.

Big Woz (73:55)

I don't want to be.

Justin Varier (73:56)

I think they're sick.

Big Woz (73:57)

I don't want to be. I don't like how this is going to sound, but, like, I got a call that I could get Luka one on one this summer.

Justin Varier (74:12)

Okay.

Big Woz (74:12)

But I was unavail. There was, like, nothing I could do. I was unavailable.

Rob Mahoney (74:16)

Yeah.

Big Woz (74:17)

It would have been different than Tim and Malika. Oh, so it's not disrespecting her. She's one of the best people in our business.

Rob Mahoney (74:25)

Okay.

Big Woz (74:25)

Me and Luka's interview is gonna be different.

Justin Varier (74:27)

You're like the frost in the frost.

Big Woz (74:29)

Nixon. Yes.

Justin Varier (74:30)

You're the guy to bring it on.

Big Woz (74:31)

It's gonna be a little bit different.

Rob Mahoney (74:32)

But to clarify, what's separating you from the people who did interview Luka Doncic is you did not make yourself available to interview one of the best basketball players ever.

Big Woz (74:39)

I literally couldn't do it. But also, I would have treated it as if. Luka never talks to me again. I don't care. That's what the difference would have been. Espn, they, like, they want to maintain a relationship with Luka. Group chat.

Justin Varier (74:56)

I want to be able to throw shots at his weight if he ever gets off the treadmill.

Big Woz (75:01)

I would have. I would have been. I would have asked some different questions. That's all I'll say.

Justin Varier (75:07)

I would say your interview with Jared Allen was different than anyone he's ever had before. It's true. And we love you for it.

Rob Mahoney (75:12)

A1of1 interviewer. Truly, Justin, I would have loved to see a conversation between you and Luca. You know, two gym bros now, two guys who've been getting after it. I just want to see what you talk about. I want to see what those two minds have in common.

Justin Varier (75:23)

That's right. Does he use dumbbells for his bench press?

Rob Mahoney (75:25)

Unclear bands for all the details we know. We don't know those.

Big Woz (75:29)

That's true.

Justin Varier (75:29)

The mental expose really didn't have much about anything except what Is it? He. He.

Rob Mahoney (75:36)

It did have some AI generated fake facts. It did have that, right?

Justin Varier (75:39)

Well, no, he fasts, right?

Rob Mahoney (75:41)

He does fast.

Justin Varier (75:42)

He fasts and eats a lot of protein.

Rob Mahoney (75:45)

Anyway. Luka Doncic, really good. Probably going to be the mvp. Honestly, even if he was just as good as he was as a maverick, I think the Lakers amplification machine will make it so clear how good he is that he will win.

Justin Varier (75:58)

Yeah, probably another guy on the short list in that running for mvp, one. Anthony Edwards. The Minnesota Timberwolves clock in at number six. Last team on the docket for this episode. You know, I kind of had a revelation as I was doing the rankings where I was like, I was trying to find a team for my fifth spot, basically, because I think the first four are pretty locked in. We can get into that in the next episode. Then I was left searching for, like, who's that next team up? And my inclination coming off of the off season was to ding the. The Timberwolves just because they're, in a broader sense, a lesser version of what they were last year. They lost Nikhil Alexander Walker, a big part of their defensive identity. They picked Naz Reed essentially, over bringing him back. And so you want to think, like, maybe they won't have as much, but as I was talking my way into it, I'm just like, this team is just so rock solid. And I know it's like a kind of a blogger way of looking at this. Like, I think Taran Shannon or whoever fills those Nikhil minutes.

Rob Mahoney (76:57)

Yeah.

Justin Varier (76:57)

Like, could, like, maybe solve who wins the west next season. I think it's as big as that.

Rob Mahoney (77:03)

They're an awesome team and they give Denver in particular fits. And so it's like, if you're this good and you have a potential kind of inside matchup track on one of your, like, some of your prime competition, you have to take them super seriously. And you have every reason to think that Anthony Edwards is going to be a half step better, if not a full step better this season and that maybe one of those young guys, maybe it's Shannon, maybe it's Jalen Clark, maybe it's Rob Dillingham. And we could, if you want to power rank how confident you feel about those three guys. I think we're probably in alignment on Shannon being the most immediately promising of those three.

Justin Varier (77:36)

Yes.

Rob Mahoney (77:37)

But they do need them. Like, they're. They're going to need more contributions from them. Not just replacing to kill Alexander Walker, but offsetting Mike Conley. As much as it makes me feel like my Bones are turning to dust as I say it, getting older and less effective every year we go on.

Big Woz (77:51)

Yeah, yeah. It's funny because in the previous episodes we've talked about the continuity and collective identity of the likes of Detroit and Orlando when like Minnesota has that. But it's Western Conference Finals level.

Rob Mahoney (78:08)

That's just what they do. Get to the Western Conference Finals, like.

Big Woz (78:11)

They'Ve got that continuity and identity of a team that's gone to deep playoff runs. And credibly we can say their best player, his best NBA basketball is still yet to come. So that's why there's still a fun and exciting team. And, you know, like, my thing is like they play well every postseason, every playoffs, they do their thing. Even when they played Memphis as a way lower seed and it's their first time in there and it's Aunt Edwards first time. Like they drove Memphis to the brink in that series and have just kept doing this every playoff. So, you know, they got my utmost respect. I don't know about Anthony Edwards having a post game now.

Rob Mahoney (78:59)

He's just in the full superstar development cycle. You pick your path, but then you just follow the beats that every other star has already done.

Justin Varier (79:07)

Is he working out with lajuan?

Big Woz (79:09)

Oh, I don't know if he added the Hakeem Wrinkle, but he definitely, he's got a post game.

Justin Varier (79:15)

Okay.

Rob Mahoney (79:15)

Akeem really figured out like the best racket in the game. You know, really incredible stuff from him.

Justin Varier (79:21)

Just personal training.

Rob Mahoney (79:22)

Personal training, little fee on the side. Like, it's good work.

Justin Varier (79:25)

You know, the pathway for Minnesota to be incrementally better is just like so easy. It's just Anthony Edwards playing another year healthy. And it's also Jaden McDaniels playing more like the second half of the season than the first half. Like that alone probably leads to a couple wins. And there's stuff on the fringes that they need to figure out, but it feels like more of a playoff, like, long term trajectory sort of conversation rather than will this be a really good regular season team? Yeah, I don't know. But I think ultimately the question is like, are they the Buffalo Bills of the NBA where they keep making the Western Conference finals? Or like, is there enough in house to make a leap? And I think it's a lot of the young guys are probably going to dictate that.

Rob Mahoney (80:07)

Thank you for explaining that because I don't know anything about the Buffalo Bills.

Big Woz (80:10)

That's so funny.

Justin Varier (80:11)

They made it to four consecutive Super.

Big Woz (80:14)

Bowls and lost all four.

Rob Mahoney (80:15)

Wow.

Justin Varier (80:15)

It's Brutal.

Big Woz (80:16)

Brutal.

Rob Mahoney (80:17)

Fucked up.

Big Woz (80:17)

Yeah, they almost won a couple too. Or the first one. They definitely almost beat the. The Giants.

Justin Varier (80:23)

Giants, yeah.

Rob Mahoney (80:24)

I mean, this team, like, this team absolutely can be slightly better. I think the concern with the Wolves is not will those guys that you mentioned find ways to improve. It's have teams like Denver, because of their additions, kind of leapfrogged Minnesota in the pecking order. Houston, who we're going to talk about a little later, like, they're a little harder to suss out without Fred Van Vliet for the foreseeable future. But by adding Kevin Durant, to say nothing of, you know, Dorian, Finney Smith and these other pieces, have they kind of jumped over the Wolves. There's just more teams kind of at Minnesota's level that I think there's going to be more for them to figure out. But they do win these series, they do win these matchups. Like, they have a lot going for them and I think still a lot of reason for optimism.

Big Woz (81:02)

Also we have them six, right. Like in a hypothetical series where like, you know, there were no conferences, like, would it be surprised if they beat the Knicks or the Cavs or Houston or even Denver, who they just been mopping the fucking floor with. Like, it's kind of crazy, right? When you really sit and think about the collective talent and what they've already achieved in meaningful basketball settings. So, yeah, man, every year I'm excited to see what the Wolves do.

Rob Mahoney (81:38)

So this is not to mention, just dissected the previous version of the Lakers too.

Justin Varier (81:42)

Yes.

Rob Mahoney (81:42)

And so I think that's part of the reason why they get a slight edge over LA and these sorts of rankings. Like, you just have to acknowledge the success that the Walls have had and the fact that it is built on something so sustainable. Two way play, good quality bigs, Ant and Jaden and kind of, you know, the steadying hand of Mike Conley, Dante DiVincenzo, I think coming on even stronger could help them as well if he finds, you know, taps into some parts of his game again. There's just a lot here that you can hang your hat on as being a really high level basketball.

Justin Varier (82:10)

Yeah, obviously we talked about defense with the Lakers though, and defense is a key part of the identity for Minnesota. They don't have Nikhil on the wing and he was such a big part, especially of their playoff defense. I do find myself wondering in retrospect, that decision, Nas versus na.

Rob Mahoney (82:25)

Well, it wasn't really a decision. Kind of was because of the Bird rights situation, because they don't Have Nikhil's bird rights. They can only offer him $8 million. So it's like you could tear your team down completely and say, like, preserve Nikhil Alexander Walker, but really it's just like, I think a sign and trade is kind of a win under the circumstance, like doing anything. Because he was out the door. They just. They could not logistically pay him.

Justin Varier (82:50)

They didn't ultimately fill the spot though, because they're hoping to turn it over to some of the young guys. And I think that's a reasonable bet. But I think that goes to the construction of their team and like, what makes them unique is to have all those bigs and have not be able to play with your center type of guys. But, like, you know, Nikhil is very valuable when you need to stick him on the playoff wing.

Big Woz (83:09)

Yeah, that's the thing. Like, he's not the kind of player where when you kick it out to him, you know, there's certain these three and D types where the second they dribble, you're just like, no, no, no, stop. Like, he's not that. Like he could. You didn't feel like it. The Titanic was sinking when he was dribbling the rock. He made himself a reliable shooter. Obviously the defense is there. Um, I don't know that Terrence. Like, we know he's not going to be as good as Nakil was last year, this year, but like, you know, reasonable facsimile paired with and elevated Anthony Edwards and, you know, just the guys being better at just being a team, being teammates. Yeah, the guys that are left maybe that, you know, makes all the difference. But I do think, you know, in terms of, like, if you had to choose between Nas Reed and Nakil, the league being his perimeter oriented as it is, I might be inclined to be a Nikhil guy. To be honest.

Rob Mahoney (84:15)

I think that's kind of the crux of the things. Like, regardless of like the mechanics involved, they do need Nikhil Alexander Walker type players or. Or Taryn Shannon type players. Like, they're not very similar in style, but if Taron Shannon can give them some energy and some juice offensively in a way that's different from Nikhil. Like, that's a really useful thing for them to have.

Justin Varier (84:35)

Yeah. Played well in summer league, we should mention, is also older and so like, presumably a little bit more ready than perhaps someone like Rob Dillingham. I look at it as Shannon is the stabilizer of what they've already built and Dillingham is the potential to be something different. And right now different hasn't necessarily been good because he hasn't really been able to crack the rotation. And I don't know if he's been able to really distinguish himself enough about, like what he would do on the floor or how he would play off of Ant in a way that would really meaningfully change that approach to him. I just.

Rob Mahoney (85:05)

I don't know.

Justin Varier (85:05)

Is he going to be an on ball guy and Ant plays off of him? Is he going to play off of Ant and does he have the juice overall in order to earn those minutes when you assume the defense is going to be a sacrifice, he needs to.

Big Woz (85:18)

Hurry up and figure it out. Because Mike Conley is like, it's bruh. We're putting a lot on this guy at his age with his mileage. Like, somebody needs to step into that role. That's handling the ball, that is more distributive. And I think Julius Randle went a long way in carrying some of that burden and making himself into more of a pass first player on certain possessions. But, like, they need a point guard that isn't my Khali to be able to create. Especially when you have Rudy and another big on the floor with him. Like, for goodness sake, Rob Dillingham, step up.

Rob Mahoney (85:57)

They need that Ninja Turtle meme of like Splinter with the young turtles and then the old turtles helping old master Splinter. They need that from Rob Dillingham. They need the full Ninja Turtle treatment.

Justin Varier (86:09)

I assume Conley at the very least is coming off the bench now and.

Rob Mahoney (86:13)

Start Dante or start who?

Justin Varier (86:15)

That would be the hope. Although, are you going to put that much trust in it, kind of being more of a ball handler? Or are you just hoping that Julius does enough supplementary that like, collectively we have enough in that first unit?

Rob Mahoney (86:26)

I think that's kind of the trick of this team is like, they actually do have a lot of guards and they have a lot of bigs. And then there's Jaden McDaniels in the middle and he's kind of like the pivot piece as far as making these combinations work. If you like, if you decided you wanted to lean bigger or smaller. But they could play Dante there. And I think it could work because Ant has that ball handling ability. And maybe Conley at this point is more impactful as a stabilizer off the bench than he would be with that starting unit. I don't know. But, like, that's one of the big things they have to figure out is which guard combinations make the most sense to get Ant through the season, facilitate the development of these young players and prove that you can be like a rock solid playoff team yet again.

Justin Varier (87:04)

How you feeling about Julius Randle, Year two in Minnesota?

Big Woz (87:08)

I mean, he's earned my respect for sure in a way that I just wasn't anticipating because he went out of his way to kind of mold his game and its strengths around the guys that were around him. Back in the days, it kind of felt like Julius Randle was a blunt object, whereas last year, especially in the playoffs, it felt like he was being more of a Swiss army knife. Like what the occasion called for, he could bring to bear. And so I'm interested to see him doing even more of that, you know, like, God only knows what else he's capable of doing. If it's like, oh, like I can apply myself to the team and be a contributing player, that isn't just me getting buckets. Dropping 25, right? It felt like back in the days, Julius Randle had it in his head if he wasn't dropping 25, he wasn't being a contributing player. Whereas now, like, it feels like he is, like, better at screening, he is better at facilitating. He is just straight up recognizing different matchup disadvantages and stuff. Or like, even when some guys, they will gain an advantage, but they kicked it out because it's like, oh, like the defense is committed, so it's like, oh, I can't put up a shot right now. Yeah, like the only play is the pass out. Whereas like last year it was like, no, he was doing things to cause a reaction by the defense and then make a move after that. Like, this is a evolution in the guy's game. I'm like, look, I'm not saying he's, you know, like some all time great. I'm not, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying it was cool to see him, you know, basically sacrifice himself at the altar of the team. Man, like, that's cool to see.

Rob Mahoney (88:51)

I mean, he has sick run surpassed even my wildest expectations for what he would be as a Timberwolf. And so with, with, you know, with Randall, there's always the question of year over year, is it going to be the same thing?

Big Woz (89:02)

God, are you. Are we getting back these highs and lows with you?

Rob Mahoney (89:07)

And we even saw them within the playoffs. Like there were some games in series where it's like, oh my God, he is the best player on the floor. And then some games where he was sort of defining what their ceiling is.

Big Woz (89:16)

LeBron James ass straight up did it killed him.

Rob Mahoney (89:20)

That's. That's A clip you can take with you to your grave.

Justin Varier (89:22)

I just wonder, though, like, I think it's ultimately going to come down to which version you get of him. Probably again, unless they make some big old move. If they use Nas Reed in order to get something else. I don't know if that's frightening or encouraging, though.

Rob Mahoney (89:36)

Yeah.

Justin Varier (89:37)

Because you're right. I think it could swing either way without much notice in advance.

Big Woz (89:41)

He's paid up long term like that.

Justin Varier (89:44)

Limit motivation.

Big Woz (89:45)

The team committed to you. I was like, you've gotten a taste of deep postseason run. You're playing with an incredible talent. Like, this is the best situation of his career. So, you know, let's see.

Justin Varier (90:01)

Okay. Any other guys? Johan Berenger.

Rob Mahoney (90:04)

If Johan Berenger plays, things went real wrong. So we see, baby. I support them taking their. Their project to have on the back burner, but there's a bunch of bigs here who need a lot of minutes. And Rudy, like, I look, I'm still. I'm still a Rudy guy. I still think he's critical to this team. Even I have questions about, like, what are their best looks against which opponents. Yes. And this is where the Nas thing is complicated because it's like, Nas is really important against the Nuggets. Right? Like, as much as you might have wanted to see them reallocate resources or even consider trade possibilities, it's like, what makes them potent is their size.

Big Woz (90:38)

And forever, whatever reason, he's not a great defender in most of the circumstances, but he guards Jokic and he spreads, spreads about. So it's like, it makes Jokic's deficiencies even harder to overcome. A lot of times these stretch bigs, it's like, how long is he actually going to be able to withstand the onslaught? But with Nas is like, oh, he's fine. And he's making Jokic's life harder on the other end. It is, you know, an interesting conundrum. But Julius, like, he's not really a center, you know, and Julius Randle, you just committed to. So if you can sort of balance out maybe some ball handling, maybe some wing help by moving on from him, that's definitely something to consider.

Justin Varier (91:28)

I worry the Nas contract's going to ultimately be pretty cumbersome on the back end. It's a lot of money for, like, your eighth most important player. Seventh most.

Rob Mahoney (91:36)

You think Nas is their seventh most important player?

Big Woz (91:39)

Nas is there four fifths.

Justin Varier (91:42)

Okay.

Rob Mahoney (91:43)

He's still really good.

Justin Varier (91:45)

Randall Gobert, sure. I would say Divincenzo, just because of what he like the role that he serves.

Rob Mahoney (91:50)

But Nas is so much better than DiVincenzo.

Justin Varier (91:53)

He was last season. I think DiVincenzo on the Knicks was pretty.

Rob Mahoney (91:56)

He was good, I would say.

Big Woz (91:57)

Jaden Daniel, definitely. Position.

Rob Mahoney (92:01)

Yeah.

Big Woz (92:01)

What he brings to bear defensively, like, all of that stuff. And then it's Nas to me.

Justin Varier (92:05)

Five.

Big Woz (92:06)

Yeah, he's the fifth.

Rob Mahoney (92:07)

I think he's the fifth.

Big Woz (92:08)

Nas is the fifth.

Justin Varier (92:09)

We'll give you fifth.

Rob Mahoney (92:10)

And here's the thing. Ultimately, the money tied up between those three bigs is a lot. And I say that not because I.

Big Woz (92:17)

Much goddamn money.

Rob Mahoney (92:18)

Get. Get your money. But they have to manage this on a cap sheet with Randall and Gobert and Nas reed making like 90 million combined.

Big Woz (92:27)

No, 85.

Rob Mahoney (92:28)

No, I think it's 87. 90.

Big Woz (92:31)

Yeah, yeah, 87. 88.

Rob Mahoney (92:33)

Like, it's a lot of money.

Justin Varier (92:34)

A Rod's got to sell a lot of Hot Pockets in order to afford that. Go on a couple more Shark Tank appearances.

Big Woz (92:43)

All right.

Justin Varier (92:44)

Why don't we end it there? That's part. What is it? Five preseason power rankings. One more to go, baby. We'll be back next time. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely, the number one Terence Shannon fan, and thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll see you next time.