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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hello, and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Barrier, and joining me for the dramatic conclusion of the 2025, 26 NBA group chat preseason power rankings. We got Rob Mahoney. We got Big Woz. Guys, we've reached the end.
- [00:31]
B
The end of the road.
- [00:32]
A
Over three weeks of content, but actually three days. I've seen you guys for over, what, three hours a day.
- [00:39]
C
Secret. The secret sauce of how we do things over here.
- [00:43]
A
Well, I think they could probably tell if you're watching this on YouTube or preferably on Spotify. You could see us wearing similar clothes each day.
- [00:50]
B
Should we have brought Jeopardy. Style capsule wardrobes where it's like, you know, we change the cardigan, we change the pants, we swap things around to make it feel like a new show?
- [00:59]
C
I'm good with three outfits for six shows.
- [01:02]
B
Good.
- [01:02]
A
But what if they gave you an outfit budget?
- [01:03]
C
Oh, that'd be something different.
- [01:06]
A
We had a closet over in the corner there.
- [01:07]
C
That'd be something different.
- [01:08]
B
Something to aspire to. Stylists on site.
- [01:11]
C
Yes.
- [01:11]
B
I think there's potential for us.
- [01:13]
A
Okay. Well, we're learning things about our personal styles, but we're also learning things about each other, because, as we do before each episode, I guess this is the tradition now. Rob's gonna lead us through some team building.
- [01:23]
B
Yeah.
- [01:23]
A
One last time.
- [01:24]
B
We're going through the 36 questions that lead to love from the New York Times. To learn to love each other more.
- [01:29]
A
To learn.
- [01:29]
B
Learn to love our podcasts and basketball a little bit more. And who's to say if it's the last time? Maybe we'll just do this all season until we run through all 36 questions. I don't know. To not. Probably not. Today's question. Is there something that you've dreamed of doing for a long time? And if so, why haven't you done it?
- [01:46]
A
Oh, that's deep.
- [01:50]
C
I mean, for me, it's go to Japan.
- [01:53]
A
Okay.
- [01:54]
C
I've been, like. I've never been somebody who, like, wanted to travel the world. I'm actually, like. I think traveling is a little overrated, to be honest with you. Like, just a little Other cultures.
- [02:06]
B
Who needs it?
- [02:07]
A
You're fine with it.
- [02:08]
C
I live in America. It's the melting pot. Fine.
- [02:11]
A
With the east side of Los Angeles. Insane.
- [02:13]
C
But, like, I've just always wanted to go to Japan. Just, like, everything. The art, the food, their interaction with our culture and their sort of reinterpretation of it.
- [02:26]
B
Yes.
- [02:28]
C
Oftentimes perfecting it, you know, like, a lot of people would be like, you could get One of the best pizzas in the world in Japan.
- [02:35]
B
You can.
- [02:36]
C
Best hamburger in the world in Japan. Like, the best tailor. Like, it's like, I've always been fascinated by Japanese culture, and the reason why I haven't is just, you know, I've been, like, super broke most of my life, but I think next year I might be going to Tokyo.
- [02:52]
B
I think you got to pull the trigger on that.
- [02:54]
A
When the raise just hits the bank account. When the raise hits the bank account.
- [02:58]
C
Hey, man, listen, man, hey, listen. We. We ain't gonna tell them while I was hitting the bank account, all right? Don't worry.
- [03:05]
A
No one's gotten the money here. Do you have an answer?
- [03:08]
B
See, I don't have one that I've wanted for a long time, but I have one that's been kind of fomenting within me over the last six months to a year, which is podcast. No, there's enough of those going on. I have. I got deep into a bushcraft video YouTube rabbit hole. Are you guys familiar with Bushcraft?
- [03:27]
A
No.
- [03:28]
B
It's, like, you know, intense camping in which you're, like, building a log cabin from scratch in which you're foraging for yourself.
- [03:36]
C
People who have jobs do this.
- [03:37]
B
I think. I think you have to have a job. Okay. Because you're not just. I mean, how else would you pay for your. This quietly.
- [03:44]
A
Very expensive.
- [03:45]
C
Building houses in the woods.
- [03:47]
B
I mean, they're not fully functional houses.
- [03:48]
A
Like, it's like log. Log cabins.
- [03:51]
B
I mean, kind of provisional shelters and.
- [03:54]
A
Log cabins, like, on an island or just anywhere.
- [03:57]
B
I think that could be anywhere. But usually with these videos, is always, like, very scenic, very, like, kind of like asmr. Like silence in nature.
- [04:04]
C
And just, like, watching them do.
- [04:06]
B
I'm just watching a dude, like, chop wood and then build a structure and then sleep in it for one night and leave.
- [04:12]
C
Got you.
- [04:12]
B
And I'm like. And sometimes it's, like, 20 degrees outside, so it's just, like, minus 5 degrees outside. Sometimes it's by a lake. Sometimes it's in the mountains. Whatever. I'm like, I am not a camper by type, but could I be. Could this be me? Is there a part of me don't even camp? Not really.
- [04:27]
C
And you want to graduate to the most extreme version of it.
- [04:30]
B
Yes. I just want to jump. I just want to jump the line.
- [04:32]
A
It's like glamping, but a more rugged version of.
- [04:35]
B
I mean, I would. I love to glance.
- [04:37]
C
It's giving weed and going straight to heroin. That's what it's like. There's no gateway.
- [04:44]
A
Yeah.
- [04:45]
B
Well, this is what's preventing. This is the reason I have not done it. I would certainly die, injure myself, hit my own foot with an axe, get bitten by a bug or a snake or something. Like, I don't know, anything to protect myself. So I'm just, like, bare food out there.
- [05:00]
A
You're like one of these, like, YouTubers that goes out into nature and just, like, gets bit by a snake and dies.
- [05:05]
B
I mean, that's literally what I'm watching. Except the version where they don't get bitten by the snake. These are the successful version of that model.
- [05:11]
A
Okay. Mine's a little bit more common, I would say. I would like to complete a work of fiction.
- [05:16]
B
Wow.
- [05:17]
A
Okay. Yeah.
- [05:18]
B
Oh, to write it.
- [05:19]
A
Yeah.
- [05:19]
C
Yes. You thought he wanted to edit a piece of.
- [05:22]
A
No, I thought he had never read a book.
- [05:25]
C
That's funny as hell.
- [05:26]
B
Even I had deposited.
- [05:27]
A
Not lately. Am I, like, cranking out the book. I get through one or two a year at this point, but no. Yeah. I've never written fiction. I have ambitions to, but I don't think I take to it naturally. I'm waiting for the spark for it to happen, but I think I'm gonna do it eventually.
- [05:42]
C
Would it be about, like, a young Italian kid in Connecticut, like, making his.
- [05:47]
A
Way to life, who got into sports journalism, ended up in podcasting?
- [05:51]
B
Perhaps you write what you know.
- [05:54]
A
Oddly enough, I've thought about that. Is it something taken from your life or just expounded upon, like, one nugget of it, or is it something completely different? I've gone both ways. But, like, I don't know if you feel this way, but, like, I'm used to taking things that exist and writing off of it. It's a completely different way of approaching writing, to just completely come up with it yourself.
- [06:13]
B
This is why. I mean, I think every writer has at least considered this, right? It's at least like, do I have a novel in me somewhere? My answer is I don't. And I think it's because I am so daunted by specifically dialogue. Like, you know, in nonfiction writing, reporting, you're, like, setting a scene. You're recreating ideas and moments and things like that. It's like, I could. I could set a scene. I could create a character. Can I write how people talk, either stylized or not? I think it would sound like fucking.
- [06:40]
C
Have you guys not seen the. The new AI robots? That's, like, insulting people or giving them compliments. You haven't seen the clips of that. It's like, These robots, it's like, human shaped or whatever. Then it goes up to a person and, like, do you want to compliment or do you want to get roasted? And then, like, the robot was talking to a black dude and started, like, talking in, like, African American vernacular English. It was weir. And then it was talking to a white chick and started talking like a gay guy. It was like, slay queen. Yes, queen, blah, blah, blah. Like, just appropriating that culture. You think that's what you would be doing in your book?
- [07:20]
A
Okay, well, first of all, well, that's my dream. You just.
- [07:24]
C
Would you be, like, too Tarantino with it?
- [07:26]
B
No, I would not.
- [07:27]
A
No. You know, Quentin's on that particular ledge on his own.
- [07:31]
B
I don't think that would be the problem. I think mine would just sound written in a bad way. I think there's writing that sounds written in a flowery or interesting way. And mine would just sound like a writer trying to do too much.
- [07:42]
C
I consume so much fucking content. I think I could figure out how to write like, a white chick or write like a Puerto Rican chick. Like, write the dialogue of a Puerto Rican chick. I don't want to say I could get into the mind of a white woman, but, like, the dialogue, I think I could figure out.
- [08:02]
B
But to write the dialogue, you do have to get in the mind.
- [08:04]
C
I think I can figure it out.
- [08:05]
B
What I'm hearing is you're the most empathetic of all three of us.
- [08:09]
C
Maybe I might be. Actually, I'm an empath. I think she said. They've always said that about me.
- [08:15]
B
People do say that about you.
- [08:17]
A
Well, maybe we could co byline this as a threesome. We all work on this together. I think that was the most revealing one thus far.
- [08:24]
B
Yeah.
- [08:24]
A
Yeah. I found out Woz wants to live in luxury in Japan. You want to return to nature, and I wanted to explore more of my ambition that clearly I haven't tapped into enough. I think that's true.
- [08:36]
B
But look, I also think I learned a lot figuring out how you guys thought you might die. So we've been learning a lot every episode. And I appreciate you going on this journey with me.
- [08:43]
A
Well, it is kind of a bang because, appropriately, this is the bang we're going out on because we have the top five teams. We finally got here, went through 25 teams in depth, one by one by one by one by one, and now we're at number five in the preseason power rankings, the second to last Eastern Conference team on the docket. It is the Cleveland Cavaliers. Your number one team in the east last season, but they don't make it there this season because things are a little bit messy at the very least going into this season. It also ended messy in the playoffs. Got knocked out in the second round. One of the victims of Indiana's improbable run to the NBA Finals, to the Game 7 of the NBA Finals. And things have just gotten. The off season hasn't been great because there's been a lot of mounting injuries that have happened since Darius Garland, who was hurt in the playoffs with the turf toe, had surgery on it. When's he coming back? We don't know. Expecting to miss the start of the season. Those are always very, very vague sort of projections. Max Drus had a Jones fracture, which sounds even more dire. Might not be until the next year, calendar year.
- [09:47]
B
It's not fun. Have had that one. Don't enjoy it.
- [09:49]
A
Really?
- [09:50]
B
Yeah.
- [09:50]
A
Wow. Not only the hand, but the foot too.
- [09:52]
B
You know, the high arches, they get you. It's tough. You're fucked up.
- [09:56]
A
Hated the truth. And then you have guys who are perpetually injured, injured. Lonzo Ball joins the crew. Larry Nance, both hard to predict how much they're going to actually get from them next season. So I think on paper we like this team, but like, you know, how much of it are we going to get during the regular season?
- [10:11]
B
Right. I mean, I think they have enough pieces to compensate and, and yes, some of those are. You're hoping that Lonzo can pick up if Garland's out and that kind of thing. So it is compounding in a sense. But if you needed Donovan Mitchell to be your full time point guard, he can do it for a while. He can do it quite successfully, especially in a regular season sense. For the Cavs, the question is like, can you do all that and make the necessary kind of changes and evolutions that you need to. To become a more sophisticated playoff team?
- [10:38]
C
I think Kenny Atkinson, what he achieved with this team, completely changing the way they operate for the better last season is, you know, one of the better coaching jobs we've seen in like the last 10 years. Really remarkable what he did to like it's the. The team was already good, but he turned them into something like wholly different. I think applying that same vigor or whatever to this season, especially after how disappointing the end of last season was, I. I have confidence that that'll happen. And another thing with Garland, I think so long as he could come back by like January, February, to me that's kind of like the cutoff. I think they'll be fine in terms of finding themselves and being a more improved version of themselves. Because, you know, I think about two recent Eastern Conference teams that like sort of changed by January. The paces of last year, which we like, it was almost like a drinking game. We kept saying, well, they've been the top five teams since January, but nobody believed it. But they actually did perform. They did it from January to the NBA playoffs, like one of the four or five best teams in the NBA. And the other team that I think about is the Boston Celtics in 22 when they changed that whole thing around. But it was some bullshit happening before January and it was the like 40th. Do we break up the two Js and all of that stuff? And it was like they turned into a straight up juggernaut by that time because they just found something and it clicked. I just really believe in Kenny Atkinson, honestly. Not just his, his sort of, you know, X's and O's or whatever, his strategic know how, but his ability to communicate, to reach guys. Like he clearly has that shit.
- [12:31]
A
So I, I think the Celtics are a good comp for existential question here, which is, is this the last dance for this core four if they don't make it to the NBA Finals? Core four being Garland, Mitchell, Mobley and Allen. Because you're right when there was a lot of consternation about the Celtics until they put it all together and they went gangbusters, won the title and all that. They had the leap the Cavs did last season, but it didn't end as well this time around. And so I do have to wonder, like, are they on the clock now and is it tough to do it without the momentum of rising and then ultimately getting to your final goal? Um, I think there's a lot of things we could talk about here. First and foremost is like the health. But second is like, what do they even need to get over the hump that they haven't been able to get over thus far?
- [13:18]
B
I think some of it is a branching out beyond system. Like last year was a proof of concept for how they want to play. But you look at even teams that make it to the finals, the most successful teams, they all have the ability to then counter punch, to then pivot to something else when they need to do that. And so like, they're really good at creating system baskets at a buzz saw level. And through the regular season that just destroyed everyone they came up against. They played super hard, they played fast, they played within their style. It all really worked. And then you need some of that counter punching. And I think some of that historically has come from Donovan Mitchell, like just trying to throw everything on his shoulders because that's their most successful counter punching option. More of it has to come from Evan Mobley. Like, that just has to be a, a more prolific, go to offensive option for them. And he has it in him to do it, but he has to find ways to continue to be aggressive. I thought it was like a huge step forward for him in that way last season of just like dominating around the basket when the matchup presents itself. Now he needs to have a way to dominate from 12 to 15ft from facing up against guys who he should be able to beat off the dribble. Like just a little bit of diversity in some of these other elements of their offensive game for when, you know, the open threes aren't flowing and hitting and connecting in the way that the Cavs like them to.
- [14:31]
C
To me, that's Garland too, though. I think a big part of the Pacer series was that Garland was dealing with the toe situation. He just couldn't be, you know, that guy. Like to me, last regular season he was a bonafide all star player. Like he performed at that level. No question. It's just by the time the playoffs came, he was, you know, he was a diminished version of that clear cut. Like it wasn't. He wasn't some fringe guy. To me, he was playing as well at the position as anybody by the time the All Star game came. And I thought that's what they were missing against Indiana is, you know, Garland just straight up creating an advantage. It can't just be on Mitchell every time something breaks down for him to just, you know, put his entire offensive repertoire to the test. Seven possessions in a row. Like at a certain point you said Evan Mobley, but I think Garland needs to be part of that equation. And if both of those guys are playing at, you know, high level, all star level, like they're going to be tough to beat.
- [15:35]
A
Yeah, they definitely missed not only his playmaking, his passing, but his just his organization of everything that they do. And I think you're right, Rob. It felt like they had settled on this system that brought out the best of them, but then perhaps they were too system dependent when they needed not to be. And that's where I wonder, is the Garland injury to start the season a blessing in disguise to some extent, because it almost forces Mobley to be the number two option. I think not having Garland leads guys to have to step up. For Mitchell, it Almost like leans into some of his worst impulses, which is to take, take control and be overly controlling of everything and I have to do everything. And he's good at that at times, but when he's not, you could see like kind of the bottom fall out with Mobley. It's like you almost have to push him to be a little bit more aggressive.
- [16:17]
B
Yes.
- [16:18]
A
He needs the reason to do so. It doesn't seem to be in his nature, which a lot of good comes from that. He's very pass first, he's easy to play with, seems like a nice guy, gets all the right things. He has very sharp nuance and I think emotional IQ as a result of that. But it would be good to see if he like has that kind of killer instinct that typically falls on Mitchell to provide.
- [16:37]
B
I think a lot of players go through that sort of learning curve who, who are just like a little bit more reluctant scorers by nature or aren't imposing offensive players. And. And you're right, Justin, that like, this is the sort of opportunity that urges you along. It's like you do need that reason to do it. And then eventually the reason becomes because I can fucking do it. You know, it's like, I think you can even see it in the arc of someone like Giannis or someone like Nicola Jokic. Like earlier in their careers they were fitting into offense and then they became offenses. And Evan Mobley, that's a high standard to hold him to in terms of what he can ultimately create, but he can absolutely continue to level up as a score, as a go to option, as someone who is imposing his will on a game rather than finding his place in the flow of it.
- [17:18]
C
And it's important because system stuff can only take you so far. Like even okc, by the time we were getting to the damn Game 7 of the NBA Finals, it was just like, Shay just had to do it. Yeah, you just had to beat people. Same thing with J Dub. Like, it wasn't like, oh, all of this crisp passing and he's attacking and scrambling defense. It's like, no, like you just gotta straight up just beat the guy in front of you. And that's why I think it's important, because you can have the beautiful system and I think you need that in order to propel you to home court advantage and racking up regular season wins and not killing your guys wear and tear wise during the regular season, because it is just a better way to spread out the responsibilities that come with carrying the team. But when it comes to postseason you know, when you've played a team six games in a row, I'm sorry, your system has been scouted, guys like torn to shreds. Yeah.
- [18:21]
B
And that's one area where, you know, the Cavs have as good a case as anybody in the east to say when things break down. Donovan Mitchell as a go to option is really good. And he. And he can compete with a lot of Eastern Conference opponents, specifically the Knicks. But compared to the best players on those west teams, we're just talking about a qualitative difference. And that is. That's why you could rely on someone like Jokic, even someone like Kevin Durant, in ways that you shouldn't rely on Donovan Mitchell to bail you out. You need that as a. As a go to option. But you want option B, option C, option C, part two, like you. You want all of the decision tree.
- [18:57]
A
Yeah. And I think they can make market progress as a team. If Mobley makes, like just modest progress as a scorer, like I have written down of, can he be the second option for this team? Now when Garland comes back, maybe it gets a little messy, but, like, if he just takes a step forward of being just the next guy next to Mitchell with kind of slight tweaks, nuance, stuff that he already has started to go down the developmental path. I've written down, like, just faster decision making. Sure. Or just like a little bit of a tighter handle or just getting stronger. Like, I think those are the type of things that would make a huge difference. And he's already gotten stronger because you've seen this photos of him this offseason. He looks swollen. Shit. And it's like, we love muscle watch over the season. It is an annual rite of passage. It matters more for someone like Mobley who needs the extra girth in order to do a little bit more.
- [19:49]
B
And this is where you see like the year over year stuff with him, too. Because like last season, the decision making was a little faster in the open court. Right. It was like, get the rebound, just go and make calls and attack quickly. And now it's about taking that into half court situations. How do you take that same sort of instinct and processing and transport it to this other arena?
- [20:08]
C
Yeah. But even last year was a huge step in the right direction.
- [20:11]
B
Absolutely.
- [20:12]
C
Just in terms of like, you know, when. When. Especially guys with his skill type when they're younger and they show any modicum of touch, you'd be like, oh, my God, he's going to shoot 41 day.
- [20:25]
B
Right.
- [20:25]
C
When it's like, realistically, if he shoots 35 to 36 and has to be guarded. They have to contest that.
- [20:32]
A
That's.
- [20:33]
C
That's good enough. Absolutely. Um, not that he's ever going to be Shaq or Jokic in the post, but, like, can he beat up on dudes that are 6 foot 7, 6 foot 6 that get switched. Switched off on him? Dudes that shouldn't be guarding big men? Can he beat them? Not that he's going to be Jokic, where no matter who the big is, he's putting them underneath the basketball. Right. And so last year, yes, the shot looked better. He took it with more frequency. Obviously, he was more confident in it. I was more excited that he was more willing to mix it up with guys underneath. To me, that's the stuff that gets me more. More amped about what he's going to do this year.
- [21:13]
A
There's a lot to get excited about, but we still have them second and east behind the Knicks. For you, is it more doubt about maybe some of the injuries with the Cavs or something with the Cavs or belief in them Knicks?
- [21:23]
B
It's a little more belief in the Knicks, who also, we should say, like, the Cavs are mostly the team that they already were, and they're going to need some of that development. This is why we're talking about Mobley and Garland needing to take steps forward, because they need that development. In addition to Lonzo being healthy and playing well, the Knicks overhauled their bench.
- [21:39]
A
Right.
- [21:40]
B
Like, they dramatically changed the, like, guys six through nine on their team in a way that they really needed to. But the reason we're talking about the Cavs in this capacity is they're a really good team. They just won 64 games, and yet it still felt like there was, like, a little something missing from what, what, whatever they needed to get over the hump into the conference finals, into the finals. I think they're right there, especially in this East. And that's kind of what's crucial for them, is they will not get a better opportunity than this. And it's one of the reasons why the pressure might mount around that core four, why this might be if they. I would think if they don't reach the conference finals especially, this might be the last time that they get this chance. They've had their. They had their opportunities, they've had some bad injury luck, they've hit some roadblocks, but this is it. Like, it is them and the Knicks, and as we talked about, the Magic are going to be right there. There's other goodies, teams but the, the deck has, has really laid out in a favorable way for them.
- [22:33]
A
And also just look at the bottom line because this team is, as we record this, I believe the only team in the second apron right now. And they are way over 20 million over and I appreciate that they're willing to do that. They brought in DeAndre Hunter last trade deadline and it kind of forced them into the situation.
- [22:49]
C
Subprime loans, baby.
- [22:50]
A
There you go. That's how you get it. But it does feel like this is probably a one term thing and if it doesn't go well, we're going to start selling off pieces.
- [23:01]
C
Yeah, I mean resigning Mitchell I think allows them to. Yeah, they could take a step back with the role guys, but they're going to be hyper competitive so long as they got Mobley Mitchell and Garland. Jared Allen, our guy group chat alum, he might be on the, you know, on the trading block or whatever, but the opportunity's there in front of them to save the team, man, to get to the finals and be like, yo, we need to do this again next season. So yeah, it's exciting.
- [23:37]
A
Less appeal to the cat daddies of the world, but they will soldier on nonetheless. Anybody else on this team?
- [23:43]
C
You're right, it's Lonzo Ball, baby.
- [23:46]
B
I'm excited about it.
- [23:47]
A
I mean, he's made a pickup sticks at this point, but he's really good though. When he plays, he's quite good.
- [23:53]
C
When he plays, he's quite good. And you know, I just like that he's getting a fresh start on a team that has stakes, that has something to play for. It's not just Chicago Bulls, New Orleans Pelicans, mediocrity, like it's like, no, straight up, like we're going to be very good this year. Your minutes are going to be meaningful and so that's why I'm happy, man. And I think it's just a different dynamic than anything we have because he's such a unique player in terms of how he sees the floor and you know, he's always been just an incredible transition player. I wonder if he could be the same impact defensive player because that's where he got really special to me, that brief stint with the Bulls where it's like the offense genius and craft had finally met with the defense and he was just such a fun player. I just wonder if he still got that defensive gear within him.
- [24:51]
B
It would be terrific if he does. I mean that kind of chaos creation is something the Cavs could really use. I like him as a, as a Hypothetical fit, because he is hypothetical, because he can play with Garland or Mitchell. He played with both of them at the three, basically. Like, he's big enough to guard some of those guys. I just think he could unlock a lot for them. And he just is a seamless fit within their kind of house style. So all of that stuff says this is a great fit. The cost of Isaac Okoro very manageable under the circumstances. Like, Okoro is fine, but was not what the Cavs needed anymore.
- [25:23]
C
See, you wouldn't want to be ya.
- [25:26]
B
One more guy just in like, the random guys I think are kind of good. Craig Porter Jr. Is good, and he's just like, on this team.
- [25:33]
C
What's. What's he good at now?
- [25:35]
B
It's just kind of like every time I see him play, he's doing something smart or something that just kind of pops from like a recognition or effort standpoint. Just like one of those role guys who. It's like every time I see him, I come away encouraged by the fact that, like, he could play rotation minutes somewhere. And maybe now that the Ty Jerome era has fizzled all the way out in Cleveland, maybe there's some minutes for him there. I don't know.
- [25:56]
A
Next team on our list is that last Eastern Conference team, the one we have ranked number one in their conference, but number four in this exercise, that is the New York Knickerbockers. You probably spent some time in New York this summer.
- [26:09]
C
Like, what's the vibe? I mean, I mean, come on. People are excited, especially coming off of last season. And not only the you slayed the Celtics dragon, but the Pacers, who, let's face it, kicked your asses, are very diminished. Like, the path just seems very open. And, you know, I think Knick fans are gonna nick fan. They're gonna be ready to sell. They're gonna be ready to predict the championship no matter what. But for me personally, what changed is talking to Fred Katz. Cause I wasn't convinced that Jalen Brunson was going to be so willing and ready to change the style that boosted him into the stratosphere of celebrity and NBA stardom. It's like, why would I be doing something different? And more importantly, why should Mike Brown be the guy that's convincing me of this? But like, talking to Fred Katz, he's like, yo, Jalen Brunson isn't married to some system. And if you come with a smart offense, he's gonna run it, right? He's that type of player, which to me, the Knicks biggest two biggest weaknesses was the one dimensional nature of the offense, especially in crunch time. But like just generally there wasn't a lot of dynamism to it. And the piss poor bench and they've addressed the bench like in a huge.
- [27:43]
B
Way, it's pretty good.
- [27:45]
C
And if we port what Mike Brown did in Sacramento in turning that into an offense that all of us loved watching in terms of his not being one dimensional, way more egalitarian, way more free flowing ball movement, less taxing on your best player, then like they've just upgraded this Eastern Conference finals team to something that's even closer to like serious championship contender type. So I, I mean I'm super bullish on the, the Knicks in a way that I wasn't before.
- [28:20]
A
Yeah, well, Brown, they had their media day just the other day as we're recording this and he's already talking about wanting to play fast. Now that's a coach GPT sort of thing to say at media day. But I believe him for the reasons Woz is laying out because he did play fast in Sacramento and paid dividends. I wonder how much this roster is suited for it. But I do think they need juice overall and also like their offensive juice I think is going to dictate how far they go. Because this is the type of team that was supposed to just blow teams off the court with offense. Didn't quite get there last year. And I think it kind of speaks to the existential question, Rob, as we're going into the season, because they could still be that team, stay with the same starting lineup, leave Josh Hart in there and you're just hoping the power of Cat and Brunson used differently is going to make you number one in the league. I think they have that capability to be in like the, the, the low 120s in offensive rating. Like that's very high, but like historically even. But I think it's on the table for this team. The other option we saw in the playoffs is put Mitchell Robinson in there, go double big. Yeah, that has more of a balance to it, but I don't know. Do you mean one way or the other?
- [29:24]
B
I kind of like starting Mitchell Robinson.
- [29:26]
A
Okay.
- [29:27]
B
And I think some of it is as far as what Mike Brown's saying about playing fast, like you wouldn't think that that is the line that lends itself to playing fast, but there are different ways to play fast. And I think the battle for the Knicks is not just like up and down in transition. It's are we going to spend 12 seconds running Jalen Brunson through off ball stuff to just get him the ball and then ISO like you can get into your motion fast, you can get into your flow faster. You can play for offensive rebounds. Like, you can play with pace. I think still with Mitch out there. And ultimately, like, I think the Josh Hart look is good to have, but it's also a little more intuitive, to be honest with you. Like cat at the 5, Josh Hart crashing and cutting. OG knows his spots. McHale I think will have an opportunity to kind of grow in his role this season. And Jalen Brunson can obviously cook. Like, you get how those pieces work. The Mitchell Robinson cat stuff, I think needs time and needs some finessing and needs a little bit more structure to make it make consistent sense. We we've seen kind of what it's capable of, but starting games with that and giving it its kind of designated time and focus to me feels like it would be additive to the kind of the overall, like structure and success of that unit.
- [30:30]
C
I mean, most people would say their best, the best they looked in the playoffs last year were the Mitch minutes where he was just imposing his will both, you know, on the defensive end with his paint protection and like moving around pretty decently in a way that I was kind of like surprised by and then just dominating on the offensive boards. It's kind of crazy and I think a lot of people killed Joe Missoula for this, but he was coaching to Mitchell Robinson, which is crazy. But that happened in the playoff series. Like the defending champions were changing what they were doing based on the fact that Mitchell Robinson was on the floor in the lineup.
- [31:13]
B
Right.
- [31:14]
C
And so you see that happen in the playoffs and it's like, how do you not start that guy starting next season? But at the same time, like, he's not a high minutes guy anyway. So they're gonna have to develop different lineups and different modes of being even when Mitchell is in the rotation and, you know, hopefully he's able to avoid injuries, but, like, he's not gonna be a 36 minute a game guy. Like, that's not. He should be like 27 minutes a game tops in the regular season.
- [31:45]
A
Yeah, I think it's a cat question, first and foremost, do we lean into him being a true stretch five and use that to our advantage? Can we have force teams to have to match up that way as opposed to the other way? And it's also a rotation question for the reasons Woz is mentioning. Do you want to overextend Mitchell Robinson? He would assume Mike Brown's a Little bit more measured in terms of how much he's going to use his starters, but also like, what is Yabaselli. Is he better as a go to scoring five or is he better as like a four? And I think it is also like, how are we going to use our guards off the bench? Because all of a sudden they kind of have a glut there where it's like Clarkson and Deuce and maybe Josh Hart if you want to have him handle the ball or you want to give Mikhail some time. Like there's a lot of mouths to feed in the backcourt. And so how do you distribute everything? What's the best use of like the puzzle basically?
- [32:30]
B
Yeah. I think some of those problems are going to resolve themselves financially because they're bringing a lot of guys into camp as we're recording this. But the Malcolm Brogdon, Landry Shamit, Garrison Matthews, Tyler Kolek, like some daddy a. Yes. Like some of those guys are just going to get cut or traded for financial reasons and just like for roster space reasons. But I like, I like that you can just kind of throw them in the blender and see what comes out like or, you know, see what kind of rises to the top with that group. And I like ultimately Jordan Clarkson and kind of the. The punch that he gives you with Yabuzeli, with. I think, I think Malcolm Brogdon could be good, to be honest with you.
- [33:08]
C
You think Jordan Clarkson's an improvement over campaign?
- [33:10]
B
I do.
- [33:11]
C
I know I certain.
- [33:15]
B
And ultimately Clarkson and Deuce. Clarkson and Deuce is like a bolt of energy between them and like a little offense and a little defense in terms of their balance in a way that I think could really, really work. And this was a team that just needed like one more guy. They just needed one more rotation player to. To alleviate some of that pressure on the starters to make it so they didn't have to play so much to carry some of the non Brunson minutes. I think they have a lot of compelling candidates to do that stuff.
- [33:40]
A
How soon until someone in New York gets a Yabu tattoo?
- [33:42]
C
Has it already happened?
- [33:43]
B
Better have already happened.
- [33:45]
C
No, we got to wait till at least All Star break for that. He's got to. He's got to get into a couple fights. He's got to, you know, he's got to do some things first.
- [33:53]
B
Nah, he's going to have a great like December game.
- [33:55]
C
Yeah. Like a 12 point quarter against one.
- [33:58]
B
Of these Western Conference contenders or something. And it's like, oh my God, this, this guy is the truth.
- [34:03]
A
How are we feeling about Mikhail Bridges going to the season? Signed the extension. Yeah, big old number, $140 million. Didn't have the greatest debut season in New York, or at least one that matched the expectations based on what they traded for him.
- [34:17]
B
Seemed like there's been some suggestion that maybe he was also like not thrilled about the style and the coaching. Not a Tibbs guy. We'll see if maybe just being out from under that particular yoke, like, helps.
- [34:30]
A
Him a little bit.
- [34:31]
B
But he is kind of indicative of the way this could grow in, in year two.
- [34:35]
A
Right.
- [34:35]
B
Like him and Kat coming in. It all had to come together pretty quickly. And I thought you saw at times with that kind of core group that while on paper it was scintillating, in reality, sometimes it was just like pretty good. And if, if they can elevate beyond pretty good. And in particular with Mikhail, you know, following through on some of his offensive actions a little bit more, keeping things moving rather than pulling up for some of those shots or the games where he's just kind of invisible on the perimeter. Like, he has to be more involved. He has to be somewhere between Suns Mikhail bridges and nets McHale bridges. And I thought he erred a little bit too much toward the Suns model offensively. And wasn't the Suns model defensively close to the Suns? Too close. He flew too close to the Suns.
- [35:17]
C
It's. It was not great in the regular.
- [35:21]
B
Season last year, to say the least.
- [35:24]
C
The defense was just so disappointing. And then, you know, you get the text like, does this guy ever go all the way to the basket for a layup? You know, I thought in the playoffs, if you look at the raw numbers, he didn't have a great playoffs either. But I thought in moments he was able to find a good balance on both ends where it's like, oh, he's finally like selling out on defense, especially that Boston series. And then there were just moments where he was being hyper aggressive finding his shot. And he did develop that mid range foul line sort of jumper situation where it's like, damn, if he gets even a little bit of space on this, this feels like his automatic go to weapon, which in today's game is antithetical to what we know to be as effective. But again, if that becomes his thing and he could consistently get there, if he could just mix that up with like, you know, getting hit on the elbow, like getting to the line or something like that, I think that'd be cool, man.
- [36:24]
A
Then he couldn't play 82 games again, which seems to be his top priority, unfortunately.
- [36:27]
B
I mean, he's very good at doing that.
- [36:29]
A
He's very good at being there.
- [36:30]
B
But this is where I'm excited about Mike Brown is. You know, I think with coaches, we tend to do the thing of just, like, transposing. Okay. Like, put Kat in the Sabonis role, and they run this sort of stuff. I don't think it's that simple because the decision makers are different, the scorers are different. But the key of what the Kings did was not just Sabonis and Fox. It was unlocking everyone else. It was the way that those. Those actions set up Malik Monk or set up Keegan Murray. And in this case, I think OG and Mikhail are the two guys where it's like, they can do a little more, but they need to be the right kinds of little more because og, when he tries to, like, push too much, it can get a little stilted and awkward.
- [37:07]
C
Yeah.
- [37:08]
A
I am coming around to Brown ultimately being a value add for this team. I think he wasn't the top guy, but he might be the right guy for this team. Part of it could be just the fact that he's in interviews again, and he's quite a congenial fella. And it's great to see that, especially after grinding out press conference quotes from Tibbs for a couple years. But I also think, like, if he has that sort of disposition with his players, like, and everyone's playing a little bit more free and just, like, with more space and whatnot, like, that's exactly what this team needs.
- [37:37]
C
Yeah. And also his willingness to try stuff.
- [37:40]
B
Yeah.
- [37:41]
C
Because that was. That was the sense Fred Katz got from management's disapproval of what Tibbs was doing is his rigidity to just doing things one certain way. And Mike Brown has demonstrated that he's gonna experiment, he's gonna be way less rigid than Coach Tibbs needed. And I think that's what they were most. What they seen as the number one quality in a Tibbs replacement was not necessarily offensive versus defensive, just, like, be willing to play Delion.
- [38:18]
A
Right?
- [38:18]
C
Like, that was the most hilarious thing of last postseason, where Tibbs, like, finally was forced to play the bench. And it was. It was basically fine.
- [38:27]
B
It wasn't the end of the world.
- [38:29]
C
It was like, dude, we could have been doing this. So that's why I think the Mike Brown thing is cool. And again, just to bring it back to Brunson, him being the type of player. And you hear the cliche all the time, like, a lot of the things that would make the Patriots work is like Belichick could just yell at Tom Brady. Right. Or Popovich could just yell at Tim Duncan or Steph Curry. Being the most, like, literally coachable, selfless, egoless person in the building while being an all time great. I think Jalen Brunson possesses those qualities too, that he's gonna do what's right for the team. So that's what I think in conjunction with changing it up. Having a guy who everybody's gonna be like, no, we're doing something different this year.
- [39:16]
A
Yeah. I watched a lot of director and actor interviews, perhaps unconsciously, to prepare for my forthcoming screenplay.
- [39:23]
B
Yes.
- [39:24]
A
But also just I'm curious about how that world.
- [39:26]
C
We're gonna do the novel and then we're gonna sell the rights to the script to the novel as a movie.
- [39:31]
A
Yeah. Or vice versa. Maybe I'll get into screenplays and then.
- [39:34]
C
That will launch my novel. Gotcha.
- [39:36]
A
My novelist.
- [39:37]
B
What do you think about. I mean, since you're an expert in the field, you know, actors on actors, very successful series. Could we do bloggers on bloggers? Do you think that. I guess that's what we're doing now, to be honest with you.
- [39:46]
A
I mean, who's that for? Is it for Fred Katz?
- [39:50]
B
Well, Fred Katz was invited, as always.
- [39:51]
A
Yeah. But when you hear people talk about a director who's like, very precise, like someone like David Fincher who runs you through 90 takes just to make sure that, like, the ball rolls the right way in the scene, or like the background actor walks with the right cadence, you could see that everyone is very thrilled with the end product because they're proud of all the work that they did. And it's usually pretty good. He has very few misses on his ledger recently. You know, we'll see.
- [40:18]
B
Shots fired. Shots fired at the killer.
- [40:21]
A
I actually like the killer.
- [40:22]
C
I like the killer.
- [40:22]
A
Mank wasn't my speed. I don't know what he's doing with.
- [40:24]
C
The Mank was definitely my speed for sure.
- [40:26]
A
Really?
- [40:27]
C
Yeah.
- [40:28]
A
I wouldn't expect that.
- [40:28]
C
A lot of, you know, lot of critiques of capitalism in there. So my speed.
- [40:36]
A
But you could also see, like, they're proud of the work, but when they go to a different director who just lets them explore and like, it's like a different, like day to day experience. It seems like the transition for Brian.
- [40:47]
C
This is like an Apatow movie.
- [40:49]
A
Yeah. Oh, you want another take at that? Turn it back. Not on film here.
- [40:54]
B
It's just video do one bit silly. You know, I do think the bar is high though like all this is true about Tibs. The teams were pretty good, yes, pretty good. Like they won in the playoffs, they were tough as hell in the playoffs, they were dogmatic but within that dogma they were successful. And so all this stuff is well and good but you have to be free thinking and open minded and win games. And we're going to find out if a Mike Brown coach Nick's team has that in them.
- [41:20]
A
Another team where the money is starting to stack up as well with that extension of the Bridges already up to next season with that core four of Brunson, Bridges, Cat and OG and Anobi, they're at 171 million just in four players. The projected cap for that season is 166. So they're already you'd assume they'd be a second apron at that point. They seem to be preparing for that like counting pennies on their like G League in two way guys as a result of that. So the Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. This NBA season is coming and FanDuel is the place to let you play your game. They have everything you need to get ready for the season with tons of cool bets like season leaders, players, specials, win totals, exact team outcomes, and so much more. And even better, you can parlay your favorite bets together for an even bigger payout. So take a flyer on the MVP race, crown your champion in October or parlay your playoff dark horses. We're looking at some odds here right before the start of the season and I'm looking particularly at that Coach of the Year race. It's going to be a little difficult because the east is wide open. So you have teams like the Hawks, the Magic that can jump up and their coaches could be rewarded in kind. So Quinn Snider, Jamal Mosley as we're looking at this, the odds aren't great for them, but I'm looking at that Mike Brown odd plus 1000 so the Knicks, despite the fact that they went to these finals last year, only won 51 games last year. And if the vibes are good, if they start off strong, and if they make a pretty compelling case throughout the season that they're one of the best teams in the league, I could see Mike Brown being the recipient, perhaps even over those other guys. So give me Mike Brown plus 1000 to win coach of the year and just visit FanDuel.com Ringer MBA today and start planning your future bets now. FanDuel play your game must be 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut team on a different end of the spectrum and the start of our top three, the Houston Rockets, who everyone is very excited about, unfortunately got a bit of bad news before the season started. Yeah, Red Van Vliet likely out for the remainder of the season, torn ACL and not their best player, but has a case for their most important. Considering I don't know who they're going to turn to as a result.
- [43:57]
B
We.
- [43:58]
A
Should start there just probably with the existential question because this is something that I think is going to define. Everything that they do from here is just like what do you do in a replacement? Are you solving it in house first and foremost you're going out for a trade or do you try to solve it immediately and try to do that? Or do you give it some time to explore the depths of the roster? Because there's a lot of depth on this team.
- [44:19]
B
Yep.
- [44:19]
A
And so I don't know where you want to take it, but like this is a pretty definitional question for them.
- [44:24]
B
I first want to take it with this just sucks. Like as someone who is really excited to see the full speed, full health Rockets go, you're right that he was, he was so important to their team last year and he was so important to the construction of the team. Adding Kevin Durant, he, he is the rug that brings the room together in a lot of ways. And once you take him out, you realize, oh my God, there is a lot of depth here. But the guard depth is not quite what we thought it was. There's not as much playmaking as you might want want on the perimeter. And so I, I don't want to do anything too drastic too quickly. The team is already going through a lot of change. I want to see what kind of what we have. I want to see what Ahmed Thompson is capable of as a playmaker and Alpert Shangun is kind of showing new wrinkles all the time as far as his work as a hub. So I think I would lean into those two temporarily. But you have to eye the market. I think you have to realistically think at some point you might need to make that, make that trade. And I hope that Amen convinces me I don't have to.
- [45:22]
C
Yeah, I think it's tough because they placed championship expectations on themselves by trading for KD but like, this would have just been a great opportunity for men Thompson to kind of step into this, or, you know, Reed shepherd, the kid you drafted third overall, to see what he has. It's just tough now. That would have just been the natural progression of what this injury would have been like without the KD trade. It'd be like, we're still super young guys are still finding themselves. This is sort of like a next man up, prove yourself kind of situation. But it becomes awkward now. And this is why the two tracks thing is so difficult, because you can't use the regular season as a testing lab. Right. Like, you know, oh, let's put the amend beaker over here and like, no, we don't have time for that. We gotta, we gotta freaking. We gotta get a top four seed. We want to get home court advantage. We want to avoid OKC in the second round. We want, like, we want to achieve all of these things. And you can't really do that if you're developing young guys into roles that they've yet to assume in the NBA.
- [46:45]
B
What if I told you they just did it last season? They won 52 games close to the first round. Yeah, but like, I think they can hold it together. The defense is so good and the young talent is rising and Kevin Durant is better than Fred Van Vliet.
- [47:01]
C
Yeah. I think we could firmly agree the.
- [47:04]
B
Pieces need some massaging, but ultimately, like, I think they can still win a lot while finding their way.
- [47:09]
C
I don't think it's a rush thing, but I think if these guys haven't shown themselves consistently enough, filling the void of playmaker. And because the problem with their team last year was the offense.
- [47:26]
B
Yes, half court offense specifically was not good enough.
- [47:29]
C
Like, it just took on this awkward shape constantly. So if by February you're still awkward in your offense.
- [47:38]
A
Right.
- [47:39]
C
You kind of got to make a move, man.
- [47:41]
A
The start of the season will probably dictate a lot of their approach here. I do think they had the best case for having their cake and eating it too, than any team that I've seen in recent years. Where it's like, Fred was the type of player who really represented this where, like, he was foundational to what they do, but you didn't really need to feature him in any way. And so you can explore the depth of what you do while not necessarily sacrificing win now sort of expectations or even the way you're playing. It's a little bit tougher now. And so like, you're not exploring the studio space. As almost like a bonus. You need Reed shepherd to be good. And like, if he's not, then you have to start asking hard questions. I agree with what Rob was saying at the jump. I think you give it some time to see where things kind of met out. You do have options. If it's not Reed. Can you start Aaron Holiday as just like a de facto defensive guy who could soak up some minutes in the Fred spot? Can you turn to Amen in sort of like a jumbo lineup? He came into the league projected as a point guard. He's kind of developed into something his own thing. He is an amend in the way that no.
- [48:41]
B
1 LeBron is an old Braun.
- [48:43]
A
Yeah. Can you just play bigger and just add Tar Eason, for instance to the projected starting lineup? Sengun, we should mention also like is one of the best European players of all time. Apparently based on his Eurobasket performance over the summer.
- [48:56]
B
Unbelievable.
- [48:56]
A
Still has stuff to tap into. So they might be fine. But in terms of like the broader conversation, I think we talked about them as a type of team that like might be in the NBA Finals, could win a title potentially. That seems a little bit more mute and a little bit more difficult if they don't make a big swing. In order to plug that hole.
- [49:13]
B
I. I mean I was fully talking myself into. You know. The Thunder are in a class of their own champions. Unbelievable regular season success. All the reason to think that their young players will get better. They're there. But as far as the Nuggets and the Rockets, like I could have been swayed either way. Like I think that they had the potential to be that good when complete. But with Fred out, there just are so many questions about the execution of the offense all of a sudden. And it's crazy that just removing that one piece does that. But he has a stabilizing effect on so many of these other players. I think Sengun first and foremost. But even when you think about what a Kevin Durant team looks like when it doesn't have a stable lead point guard. We just saw it, man. And it. That wasn't pretty. And now a Phoenix, a version of the Phoenix Suns that had a Rockets esque defense would have been pretty good.
- [50:01]
C
Yeah.
- [50:01]
B
And so that's kind of what this is becoming is less a potentially two way absolutely elite team and more a really good defensive team that is going to take a step forward offensively. But are they going to fully unclog everything that needs to be unclogged?
- [50:15]
C
That's the thing though. Do we not think Phoenix had more offensive like scoring talent around KD than what's in Houston right now.
- [50:26]
A
Offensive scoring, I think it supports KD in a way that is a little bit more easy than what Phoenix fit.
- [50:34]
B
Is cleaner for sure.
- [50:35]
A
Yeah. But you're right. I think a lot of this is going to be save us. Katie.
- [50:37]
C
Shot making isn't not there.
- [50:40]
B
No.
- [50:40]
A
Yeah.
- [50:41]
C
Like Sengun I think has shot making especially in the regular season. He can create for himself, he can score efficiently, he can get to the line, he can do all of that stuff. But like nobody else Shoot is making shots on his team besides kd.
- [50:58]
B
That's the thing. He is the shot making.
- [50:59]
C
Yeah.
- [51:00]
B
That he is the exact thing they needed based on last year's roster. And that changes a little bit without Fred too because now they need a little more. Now they need a little playmaking as well from somewhere.
- [51:09]
C
And the guys that are coming in again, Reed shepherd not being part of it, they're not spacers. They are gonna. The court will be more constricted because those guys are in the game for KD to operate. So yeah, I don't know.
- [51:26]
A
I have, I have a hard time believing that Doka is just gonna turn a large lion's share of the point guard duties over to shepherd considering that he barely played him and when he had to he was basically because he just doesn't have the defense in order to supplement some of the offensive juice that he has. And so I would be surprised. I think the worst thing that they could do overall though is make a half measure trade where they have the assets to do whatever they want. They can make a half measure, they can make a full measure down the road. Right. They can do both at once if they really wanted to. I would hope though. And I think it would be better for them if they're going to trade for someone, make it a big swing, like make it an upgrade on Fred Van Vliet, make it a Derek White type just like complete what we have. I guess the question is ultimately like do we feel confident enough in a 37 year old KD that we're ready to win now? Let's just hit the button and we'll go for it. Which hasn't been their mo. They've taken their time to really pace this out and to their credit it's worked very well for them. And then it's just like, are you limiting your options down the road? Does Giannis no longer become an easy option there? Does Derek White with this team, does that make it more exciting for either of you guys.
- [52:33]
B
I mean, that'd be thrilling. Yeah, I think he would be. But if that's a wonderful fit, if that's something they can pull off and something the Celtics are open to, they should absolutely investigate.
- [52:41]
A
I think they have the assets for it. They have so many picks.
- [52:43]
B
Yeah.
- [52:43]
A
They have the Sun's future.
- [52:45]
B
Yep.
- [52:45]
A
They have some Nets picks in there, and they have young guys.
- [52:49]
B
Depends on how much Boston wants to reconfigure everything. Right. Because Derrick White is one of the closest things they have to a pillar right now. And so if you remove him, all of a sudden, you're. You're really tearing it down to the studs, which can work, could be fine, but requires a lot more construction on the other side of whatever they do this season.
- [53:06]
A
31 years old, though, like, he's. He's built to win now.
- [53:08]
B
Yeah.
- [53:09]
C
Question what's Jabari Smith on a team where Shangoon and KD are entrenched in the starting lineup?
- [53:16]
B
Well, I think he might start at the four.
- [53:18]
A
Yeah. I think they play all three. He's the stretch that Sengun isn't going to give you.
- [53:24]
C
I guess he's the four man, but guards, threes.
- [53:28]
B
He does do. I mean, does it pretty well, to be honest.
- [53:30]
A
He's pretty good at that in the playoffs. And I also think, like, if you're just really long with KD and Jabari as your 3 4, like, you're getting some supplementary rim protection you're probably not getting from Shengoon. He's not much of a rim deterrent.
- [53:41]
B
I mean, it's.
- [53:41]
C
Yeah, it's interesting, man. Cause I guess. I guess for me, I feel like I want to maximize KD at the 4 and play like somebody who can actually dribble and. And shoot, you know, next to him offensively. But maybe I'm just too offensive minded, obviously.
- [53:58]
B
Well, you're certainly more offensive minded than Eme Udoka is, which, like, that's kind of the variable in this, too, is Udoka's a really good defensive coach, not the most inventive offensive coach. So this isn't a team that's going to be reinventing any wheels. Like, they're going to be running baseline, normal, functional stuff, but with one of the best shot makers in the world involved. And I think there's so many things they could do with the front court that it's. It's like a little dizzying. Like, they can run the two big stuff that they did last year with Shangun and Steven Adams, who's back. Clint Capella is also on this team.
- [54:26]
C
I don't know if he's.
- [54:27]
B
How much he's going to play. We'll see Tari Eason, Dorian Finney Smith, who they brought in so you could play Dorian Finney smith at the 3 with KD at the 4. You could. If Reed shepherd is good or successful or playing, maybe he opens up some things where you can then shift amen to more of like a 2, 3, 4, however you want to consider him. Like there's a lot of opportunity to mix and match all of these wing guys if they get anything at all from Aaron Holiday or Reed Shepherd.
- [54:53]
A
Yeah, that's why I think they'll go first and foremost to a men. Probably getting the crack at nominal point guard and just leaning on your defense, just being a terror. And also it helps on the back end with Shangun because if you have a men, Eason, kd, Jabari, like good fucking luck getting through that in order to even get to the rim. And it just makes things. I mean that's kind of the approach with Jokic where it's just like there's so much perimeter defense, like you're protecting him. You just have to be better positionally. You have to be better using your body and your IQ in order to make things happen. And if your defense is that good, we saw you could do with just like a basic level, entry level offense last season. Like, they're going to only be so bad.
- [55:29]
B
I think the combination of Kevin Durant, who basically is just like a almost 50, 40, 90 every year at this point, combined with one of the best offensive rebounding teams in the league, like just the cleanup on that alone is going to lead to pretty good offense. Yeah, and that's just if you just funneled random possessions to kd, to say nothing of everything that would come out of flow, everything that Shangoon would have going for him. I just think they're going to be really good even without Fred. They just may. It may have cost them this injury. The potential to be surprisingly great. Like the blow the ceiling off potential is a little tamped down.
- [56:04]
A
Yeah. Anyone else you want to mention here?
- [56:05]
B
We talked about a lot of guys.
- [56:06]
A
A lot of guys.
- [56:07]
B
A lot of guys. I mean, Joshua Kogi hanging around, shout out to him.
- [56:11]
A
Still getting those checks. All right, that brings us to our top two then. We did not have a consensus number one. So we got two votes for the Thunder and one vote for the Nuggets.
- [56:23]
B
Who's the dissenter?
- [56:23]
A
Did you vote for the Nuggets?
- [56:25]
C
I did not vote for.
- [56:26]
A
Did you Vote for the Nuggets. I did not.
- [56:28]
C
I voted for the vote for Nuggets.
- [56:30]
A
Oh, look at this guy.
- [56:33]
C
You either die a hero or you.
- [56:35]
A
Live long enough to change your opinion. Because I voted as my number one team, the Denver Nuggets. I'm buying it.
- [56:44]
C
Yeah.
- [56:45]
A
Yeah. And I think, I think it's a big case for just perhaps the competitiveness at the top of the league, but also in the Western Conference. It's just like I do think a lot of the whoever ends up winning the title is going to be based a lot on matchups in the playoffs. I also think, like. Well, it's two things I think. I think the Thunder deserve the spot in number one in our rankings just because they won last year. But also like, they should get better as just by rolling out the same team and doing nothing different.
- [57:13]
B
Yeah.
- [57:14]
A
But also like they weren't completely bulletproof last year in the playoffs. If we're looking back on it, the Denver series, first and foremost, you're starting to see the cracks of things. Sure. Pacers pushed them to seven games.
- [57:25]
C
The offense series were about to win game seven, yo.
- [57:29]
B
And so I think what could have been.
- [57:32]
A
I just wish.
- [57:32]
B
I wish we got that game.
- [57:33]
C
I know you look at it one.
- [57:35]
A
Of two ways, whereas it's like, yes, J Dub took a preciable leap. Maybe Chet follows suit. Maybe they just carry that into the postseason and then this is a wrap. I could also see it the other way where it's like, you know what, maybe they don't solve everything that we assume just because they're on this rocket ship trajectory. And I also think like, the Nuggets are the perfect foil for them. And for a lot of teams in the league, I just look at it like not only the matchup things, but like the most like bankable thing in the league is Jokic. And if we're coming down to teams succeeding or not based on who's on the floor, which is a lot of. Which has given rise to a lot of like the depth in the league and how important depth is. Like Jokic is out there all the goddamn time.
- [58:18]
C
Yes.
- [58:18]
B
I don't know how to feel about Justin making this argument.
- [58:20]
C
No, it's a great.
- [58:23]
B
It's very compelling.
- [58:24]
C
Here's why I love his argument. It's if the Nuggets bring their full complement of players reasonably healthy to a series against. Okay. It's going to take a lot for me not to pick them against the Thunder. Home court. They won't have home court. The reason why they're not my number one is just. They're just more brittle.
- [58:43]
A
Yeah.
- [58:44]
C
You know, OKC is so much younger and deeper. And, like, outside of, like, a serious injury to either Shay or J Dub. Cause I don't even think a serious.
- [58:55]
B
Injury to Chet, they've shown they could survive that.
- [58:57]
C
You know what I mean? Like, outside of a serious injury to their two best, you know, wing players, one of which is MVP guy, like, they're just there. They're just right back to 60 something wins. Completely fine. Whereas, you know, and we saw it in the playoffs last year, Murray or Gordon aren't right. It's gonna be tough for them to overcome. But if those two dudes are rolling.
- [59:27]
B
They got a lot of answers.
- [59:29]
A
It is funny that the Thunder are basically like a Mickey 17 team, where it's just like, one goes down. It's like, oh, we have the exact replica.
- [59:35]
C
Exactly.
- [59:36]
A
Like, just hanging around, a little bit different, but, like, they're basically the same guy. The Nuggets don't have the luxury of that, but they do have a lot more. And finally, they actually have rotation players.
- [59:45]
B
Yes.
- [59:45]
A
In order to support these guys and to pace them out, which Jokic needs at this stage of his career, he played way too many goddamn minutes last year. One of the biggest issues of the team. And then Jamal Murray, I mean, not only is he going to be hurt, he's also going to have times where he's just, like, flying to see UFC fights. And you're like, what the fuck is he doing? So we need to get through those stretches as well.
- [60:03]
B
He's living his life. Why are you being so judgmental?
- [60:05]
A
If he shows up like Jordan did after fucking partying all night, like, go for it, go for it.
- [60:11]
C
But just imagine this. Like, Hartenstein makes $30 million a year on OKC. If he missed the season, it wouldn't matter.
- [60:19]
B
It was okay. It would matter. It would matter.
- [60:22]
C
Yeah, but, like, would it really matter?
- [60:25]
B
They have a lot of. A lot of give give. You know, they have a. They have a lot of buffers.
- [60:29]
C
That's why, to me, they deserve the number one spot. But, like, again, in a given matchup, you know, they just. Yeah, they just have more margin for error. But that doesn't mean they're bulletproof. No, it just means they could take a bunch of blows and still have it happen. But I think there are people that could knock them out.
- [60:50]
A
I can sense you guys are jealous that I made this week like you wanted to, but you couldn't bring yourself to.
- [60:55]
B
It's a great take.
- [60:56]
C
I would be a caricature of myself if I came in here and said the number one team in the NBA this year is the Denver Nuggets. I can't. I can't say that.
- [61:03]
B
But they may prove that, like, you know, they may not be bulletproof as a team because of all the. All the concerns we've cited, but that starting five, if they are out there, is kind of bulletproof. Yeah, is something. And we haven't even seen how Cam Johnson will work or how what he might unlock with this team.
- [61:19]
C
I've already seen it, dude.
- [61:20]
B
Like, you've envisioned it in your mind's eye. Like, it's.
- [61:23]
C
It's one of those things where, like, you don't even need to squint to see it. Like, it's there. Like the movement and the cutting and the, like, the stamina. That's another thing. Cam Johnson's gonna do that crazy off ball shit. Every possession you might get Porter Jr. To go hard off a string, shoulder to shoulder. Oh, okay, don't get the shot. Pass it out. But the next three possessions is not happening that hard.
- [61:53]
A
Again, not the same girth.
- [61:55]
B
No.
- [61:56]
A
The stamina is going to improve.
- [61:57]
C
Jesus Christ. However, with Cam Johnson is just different, man. And I just think he's a better, more consistent defender. Not that he's a good one. We said all of this during free agency, but I think the Valanchunas thing is huge, if only because it just allows Jokic to just get that much more rest during the regular season. There was so many games last year, man, where like, he just, straight up, he would go out and it was just disastrous. And then he has to come in and not even just play, but, like, be an MVP to stay competitive in a game against the Wizards, you know? Whereas now when Jokic sits, like, Valanchunic is going to be. It's going to be just fine. Not that they're going to kill every bench unit.
- [62:49]
B
They're going to be okay, competent, survive the minutes. I mean, for the Nuggets, it's. Do you have eight guys for the series that you should win and who can just kind of get you through it and move the chains and do their thing? And do you have seven guys for the games you have to claw your way out of? And that's been this issue for them is like, beyond their five? Who do they trust? Who can they trust? And now I don't know that there's, like, definitive answers, but there's more plausible answers. And one of those answers is Valentunas. One of Them is Bruce Brown back in the fold, hopefully back to his, his old self. We'll see how he plays. Julian Strother, who had moments in the playoffs, maybe he takes a step forward. Tim Hardaway Jr. Who. Not my answer to this question, but maybe somebody's or maybe on the one night he is the answer to this.
- [63:32]
C
Question, he's gonna have moments.
- [63:33]
A
You just listed what like five?
- [63:35]
B
That was, that was four guys right there. And that's not even counting Peyton Watson.
- [63:38]
A
Right. And we should remember not that long ago they were relying on Russell Westbrook to save them. Like he was the emotional ballast. He was the, like the, the big.
- [63:48]
C
Clipper moments and he was like their.
- [63:51]
A
Their emotional leader until they turned on him eventually because he was doing too much. And like I, I do think like that is important to have that energy source, but it almost feels like the good vibes that are emanating from this team have almost replaced that. Just the fact they don't have to do as much. They got Brucey B back. It's just like, there's just like something uplifting happening that I think is important for a team like this that has been through the wars and like the warriors in years past just like need something in order to put the wind behind their sails.
- [64:22]
B
I think they really benefit on just like a human level from the fear or anxiety of like, are they going to be able to do anything significant? Like are they just going to kind of roll it back with Michael Porter Jr. And Bank on the young guys to take a step forward? Is that going to be it?
- [64:38]
C
That would have been depressing.
- [64:39]
B
And that would have been depressing. That would have been tough. If you're Jokic or Murray or Gordon, you're looking around and being like, we, we just hit huge game winning shots, had herculean efforts, like played pretty well. Murray maybe like a little more up and down than the other two. But they did what they could and it wasn't enough. And now you can feel like, okay, we have substantively changed something important without giving up elite shooting on the wing, without compromising what makes us good. We've only kind of added stuff and that, I mean that's a thrilling place to be for a potential contender.
- [65:10]
A
Brings us to our existential question. Is those young guys what they can expect from them at this point because they were over reliant on them in years past. They were counting on these young guys who were not proven in order to be part of a key rotation. One of the best teams in the NBA didn't work out, surprisingly. But you wonder now that they brought in veterans, does it stunt the growth? Does it kind of mitigate? Does it put a ceiling on their Runway? Because those guys, maybe they don't need them anymore. Maybe they don't need to even give them time to develop.
- [65:41]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think the guys you're talking about are Strother, Watson and.
- [65:47]
A
John Pickett.
- [65:48]
C
Yeah, I mean, there are people that still have Pickett stock. I'm pretty skeptical by myself.
- [65:55]
B
I'm holding.
- [65:56]
A
Yeah, I'm buying.
- [65:57]
C
You're buying Pickett?
- [65:59]
A
I think he's pretty good. I mean, we'll see where he plays. Like, is Bruce Brown going to get the.
- [66:02]
C
That's what I'm saying. Like, I don't know. Did like, like the Andre Miller clone. Ish nature of it is just like, is this going to work in 2025? Like, that's. I'm just a little skeptical. I think Peyton Watson, for me, who, you know, I've had the full journey with, where I had these sky high expectations, playoffs in 24 were a disaster, unmitigated disaster.
- [66:31]
B
Some really tough stuff.
- [66:32]
C
Yanked from the lineup, all of that stuff. I thought he showed positive improvement in the playoffs last year to where I'm just like, okay, he's going to be a person, a dude for this team and do important things for them. So to me, I have no questions about Watson's ability to contribute. I think Strother, like, you know those times where he was doing like good Jordan Poole impersonations, but then the times where he was doing bad Jordan, I.
- [67:01]
B
Don'T know that he was ever a bad Jordan. He wasn't like co opting the game. No, no, no, no.
- [67:05]
C
He wasn't. He was just.
- [67:06]
B
Just missing or just like not able to get his stuff off.
- [67:09]
C
Yeah, it just getting pushed around on defense and stuff like that. And so Christian Brown is just there.
- [67:15]
A
He's on another level, I think.
- [67:16]
C
You know what I mean?
- [67:17]
A
Yeah.
- [67:17]
C
He's core past any of this stuff. So, like, yeah, man, I'm.
- [67:20]
B
I. I think that's what getting the vets in does, though, is it prevents the Julian Strothers, the Jalen Pickets, the Hunter Tysons from having to feel like they need to do what Christian Brown did. Like, you don't. They don't need that kind of jump. If Peyton Watson has a little more to do offensively, that's a huge thing. If Julian Strother is 10% more consistent, that's a huge thing. If they get spot minutes in the regular season from Daron Holmes, who's finally going to get a chance to play that would be meaningful.
- [67:51]
C
Right?
- [67:51]
B
It's like popping is relative in this context now. And they don't need the surefire Rocksteady Christian Brown penciling him into the lineup kind of contribution. They just need like, can you be a guy? Can you be a guy for us on a semi consistent basis? And if not, Maybe Tim Hardaway Jr. Can be the guy.
- [68:07]
A
Yes, I think it is a good approach to what they're trying to build there, to almost build in a stopgap almost, or at least like a cushion for these young players to go up against the bumpers. They don't have to take them off and just play actual, like important NBA minutes. And then once again, like the mitigating factor looming over everything is just the money, as it typically is in most team. It is the ultimate motivator, the NBA as it is in life. I think this is an important inflection point for the Nuggets, just because they have to now go out and sign Brown to an extension, assume that gets done at some point, but also Watson up for an extension. And so basically what they did this offseason by turning Michael Porter Jr. Into Cam Johnson, they opened up space to go sign a bench finally, which was actually, I would say in the broad picture, a bad piece of business because they gave up something because they signed too many guys to max deals, that they ultimately had too much money wrapped up in four guys. But it works for them right now because it. They made them a better team.
- [69:05]
B
Right.
- [69:06]
A
I think long term, like, they're going to be in a similar situation next year where it's like, can we afford the Tim Hardaway juniors, just average league average bench players, in order to go keep doing this again. Nikola Jokic, I believe, has two more years after this, the last one being a player option. And so they need some of those young guys to pop. But it's just actually probably a more dire situation if they don't.
- [69:28]
B
Well, if you get to the Finals, that pitch writes itself. You know, if you show, even if you can just show that you can compete with the Thunder again at a really high level, maybe that pitch writes itself. So I think their success is compelling, you know, in a kind of a forward momentum sort of way.
- [69:43]
A
Right.
- [69:43]
B
If they can continue to build that, they can continue to prove that they're one of these great teams in the league, then you're going to get whatever the next version of A Tim Hardaway Jr. Is, potentially, even if you can't afford to Keep the guys you do have.
- [69:54]
A
Yeah. As we name some guys here, I think the important one to name is David Adelman, who gets his first full year.
- [70:01]
C
Shouts to him at the helm, killer job. He killed it.
- [70:03]
B
Yep.
- [70:04]
C
Absolutely killed it. And I think in, like, subtle ways of believing in more players. I know that was like, a lot of the people that, like, I was like, look, man, like, if you in an open war against your GM to the point where you won't play his little young guys that he drafted that he think makes him a genius, and people were like, the guys Calvin Booth drafted sucked. I'm like, look, you could say that. But it felt like Adelman put some belief in them, which you need as a young guy. Like, not everybody just possesses this unlimited reserve of confidence when they haven't already proven it in the NBA. Like, you gotta. Your surroundings and your environment has to give you some level of encouragement. I thought that was great. And for whatever reason, man, the big guy responded, whatever that is. Whatever that means, Whatever that's worth. The big guy responded. So shouts to. To Adelman.
- [71:03]
B
I mean, we're just talking about a lot of coaches who are stuck in their ways today. Do you think are. Are we getting too dogmatic? Do you think we're just, like, entrenching ourselves further in our little. Our little secure cocoons of takes? Like, do we need to branch out?
- [71:17]
A
I just did you really?
- [71:18]
B
Honestly, you really do.
- [71:19]
A
I'm a new me.
- [71:20]
B
I. I've never been more proud of you than today.
- [71:22]
A
I don't know how to take that.
- [71:24]
C
One last thing, though, about, you know, Jamal Murray, where it's like, bro, like, I love Jamal Murray when he's at his best. He's one of my favorites. But like, give a shit in the regular season try, you know what I mean? Like, these people have paid the shit out of you. They extended you the minute they could. They. They did it both times, by the way.
- [71:48]
B
Yeah.
- [71:49]
C
That your deal was up. Like, it'd be nice if in March. You know, it's not just Jokic out there being one of the greatest of all time. Like, give a shit, bro.
- [71:59]
B
I agree with you. But we've also rounded the corner for was from doing the playoffs, doing the finals, doing the championship. Do it again. And now it's doing in the regular season.
- [72:09]
C
Do a little something in the regular season. Maybe not all regular seasons, but I think Murray, like, he straddles that line, dude.
- [72:16]
B
He does.
- [72:17]
C
Of. I don't. I completely don't give a shit about what's happening. Not even Just it's games at a time. It's like, yeah, fourth. Oh, it's close for six minutes to go. All right, let's go. And it's like, bro, come on, man. And granted, he is one of the best big shot, timely shot, you know, seizing the moments. He's one of the best clutch players we've. Of his generation.
- [72:40]
B
Yeah.
- [72:41]
C
But I think over the course of a season, you know, it just lends itself in terms of building towards something if everybody's rowing in the same direction, just doing their part.
- [72:53]
A
What's the UFC calendar going to look like this season? How much does it affect Wolcross with the Denver Nuggets? All right, that leaves us with one last team on the docket. Your guys, number one team and probably number one for practically everybody else. Except.
- [73:06]
B
Why do you hate Oklahoma City?
- [73:07]
A
I love Oklahoma City. I actually, I look back, I was the only one to pick them number one last year. So do we pick Boston?
- [73:13]
C
Well, yeah, you picked Boston.
- [73:14]
B
I mean, we only picked them as the second best team in the league. I mean, devastating stuff.
- [73:19]
A
So your second runner up. Yeah. Or first runner up, I guess.
- [73:22]
C
I guess.
- [73:22]
A
Congrats. I picked the right team two years in a row. So this might be three. So.
- [73:30]
C
Here we go. This guy, just three year old pod record.
- [73:36]
B
He has it tattooed on his head.
- [73:38]
A
I am like the basketball historian of this podcast. I am the basketball reference for us. So I have to keep the documents.
- [73:45]
C
You like the LeBron James because, you know, he's a hip hop historian.
- [73:49]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [73:50]
C
Basketball.
- [73:50]
B
Justin was first on the Thunder.
- [73:52]
C
You know, he was first.
- [73:54]
A
He saw them. I was already last year that picked them to win the title, actually. But you guys are picking them again this year. I guess. I guess we can talk about that a later pod. That's a good question. Is number one on your power rankings the same thing as your title pick?
- [74:08]
B
No, not necessarily.
- [74:09]
C
Really?
- [74:10]
B
I think it. I think in this case, in this case it will be for me, but I don't think it has to be.
- [74:15]
C
Yeah, I mean, definitely, it's my title picking. Yeah, I tend to just think that's how I think of it. If you're the best team, I think you're gonna win the championship. And you know, I said, like, these guys could take hits. It's not that they can't get knocked out, but they do have just an incredible chin. Like they. They can play against various styles. Like they can. Like if your best player is the single best interior player since Shaquille o', Neal, we can play against that, okay. And we can figure out how to slow him down, make his life hard, not completely stop him, but we can manage with that. If your best player is Anthony Edwards, just a freaking completely detonation on the perimeter, we can deal with that. You know, like they can deal with so many different things if you play fast, if you play slow. Like, they have so many ways to carve out a victory. And then for me, like I said with Shay at the end of that Pacer series where it was getting bogged down for them and it was just, Shay just like, get the fuck out of my way. I'm just going to do this, you know, I'm going to carry the team. I'm going to get to the line. I'm not going to shoot a pretty percentage. It's not going to look perfect. It's not even always going to be like super efficient, but it's going to be enough to get us to win. Like to me that's what makes them the best team. It's like many things can go wrong and we still will still be right there.
- [75:46]
B
Yeah, I think they will be my title pick for that reason. And especially when you think about a West in which they might have to beat like Dallas in the first round, Houston in the second round, Denver in the conference finals, and then whoever makes it out of the east. And I just think they could do it. Like, I just kind of believe that because they have that versatility of style.
- [76:06]
A
I think this is going to be a big stress test. One of the more prominent examples that I can think of of like the, the theory of like figuring things out in the postseason, how much that matters in the long term. A young team that goes through the crucible that, that gets the reps, gets the experience and gets the in real time opportunity to problem solve things that you come up against in the playoffs, will that just carry over for the rest of their careers? And just like contracts or injuries are the only thing that are going to disrupt them or does like the wrinkles of a regular season does like chemistry sort of the, like the interpersonal stuff, like are those little pebbles in the ocean actually going to dictate what happens in a regular season? And so I think you can make the case for both. And the Thunder are built to withstand any sorts of pebbles. But I also do wonder if like we're in the NBA as I've mentioned in the past, like where those sorts of things will matter more. And I disagree that like if they lose a core player, I think they will feel it More than a team like Denver. If they just have a Jokic, like if Joel Murray isn't there for a series, I still have some faith that Jokic can dig them out of that. If they don't have J Dub and Chet doesn't rise this season, I don't know if I'm feeling as good about the Thunder. Like, I. I think they. What they have is great. The defense carries, but ultimately they needed as much offense from J Dub. This is. He can give them in the playoffs.
- [77:24]
B
Yeah.
- [77:24]
A
And I think that's going to be a bigger swing than something like Denver. This is ultimately, I think, a big chat season. And then that's where why he's in. Our existential question is like, is this when he makes a star leap? I think we've all been optimistic that he will, but, you know, he's the next guy up at this point. Cause it feels like J Dub kind of passed that threshold.
- [77:44]
C
If Chet's not taking the leap offensively, then there's still. I think their issues came on the offensive side last year when they were having troubles with teams is like, that the all, like, you know, Kayson, Wallace and Lou Dorrit weren't hot, and the offense just didn't look as silky smooth as it did. And Chet wasn't able to always fill in those blanks. I think if he's not that guy, they're still going to have that weakness. I believe that they're going to live on the sort of whims of shooting hotness or coldness. Right. Uh, but what like, I mean, the things that Chet has to get better at, I think he. The shot needs to be more consistent, even though it was last year than previous years. But again, same with Wemby, same with Evan Mobley. You got to be bigger, better down low.
- [78:36]
A
You just.
- [78:37]
C
You have to be. If consistently punish teams for putting smaller guys on you or losing you on the offensive rebound, you know, or when you do catch it on the short roll that you're able to get down there and finish, you know, off of the dribble, that kind of thing. And so I think, yeah, all of these lanky, wiry, quick big men, that's all ultimately something they need to answer for. I think we've seen Porzingis get way better at it way later.
- [79:08]
B
Yeah.
- [79:08]
C
In his career. And I think ultimately that was a big reason why Boston won the championship. But that's the kind of leap these guys got to make.
- [79:15]
B
I think there's the skill leap, and you see that in really tantalizing ways with Chad where he'll have weeks or a month where it's like he's just attacking closeouts much better. And it's like, oh, my God, this feels like a totally different player. And then it'll kind of fade out or he'll get hurt or something will happen and it just kind of phases out of his game. If that stuff is more consistent or he has like a couple little skill leaps, he has the physical profile and the role where that stuff is just magnified. Like, all that really, really pays off. I think the other thing is feel where. And this is something that's tough for all stretch bigs is the like, when do I space versus when do I crash? When do I cut? And while you were talking about, like, make, you know, punishing the defense when they lose you on the offensive glass or something, it's like, you gotta make them lose you. You have to know when your opportunities are. And I think there is. You can sense a hesitation from Chad that comes from, like, a very good place where he's like, trying to hold his spot, trying to hold the space, or they'll have to call time out and then they'll change and he'll be in the dunker and he'll be playing a different way. It's just getting to the point where you're proactively doing that stuff yourself, and that's evolution and growth as a player. All young guys go through it, but I think especially bigs like him.
- [80:20]
A
Yeah, he needs strength for obvious reasons, but I also think he needs the confidence that strength will give him. So I do wonder if, like, the injuries over his first two years have just, like, perhaps had a mental effect because it felt like he was hesitant or reticent to do things beyond kind of like a straight line program at times. And you saw when he was able to explore a little bit more just like how much untapped potential there really was, but really he was kind of like almost like the base level of what he could be. Like. He's almost like a defensive end where you're just like, just pin your ear back and rush the passer. We're not asking you to be in coverage. We're not asking you do any of the special things that you can do. And so I think everyone's very excited for what he can be probably wise more than anybody that I know.
- [81:01]
C
Yeah, no, I. I mean, the thing is, I think it's tough for a young guy who's on a team that's again, that they have real expectations for themselves. Because you don't want to be instinctual when playing within the system is so fucking successful. Yeah, you constantly win when you just play. Play within that framework. Right. So it becomes like, man, I shouldn't be breaking from the script. I shouldn't be improvising here. Because when we just go on script, we win 65 games. You know, I think the next step, like you said, is just being like, yeah, it's not really about what the system dictates. It's about me learning how and when to deploy these different things I have at my arsenal. But I think the hard. The sort of tangible stuff that isn't understanding and reading defenses and picking your spots and like what we call feel for the game, which I think he has a lot of. I do think the like just straight up being stronger and making more threes, like that's going to be a long. That's going to take you a long way for sure before we even get to the instinct stuff.
- [82:13]
B
I think he is going to make three. A jump of a kind. I don't. I think is he a star will be a little definitional, depending on who you're talking to and what that means. He doesn't have to be. I think it. But I think we'll see some of that brute forcing inside against smaller guys. I think we're gonna see a little more of it in the way that we saw a little more from Mobley last season. Maybe not quite to the same degree in terms of the jump, but the little improvement that means a lot.
- [82:38]
A
I also have zero doubt that the Thunder will step aside the disease of more potential complication because they're probably the best team in the league. Balancing both personal development, individual development with just like team wide goals. They're just so calculated about that. I've talked at length about just sort of the logistics porn that they have going on there. Just look at AJ Mitchell getting random minutes in the NBA Finals, then turn around and playing NBA Summer League. Like they have a way of just working these guys in and keeping them engaged throughout the regular season that they don't really get worried about the individual stuff complicating things. And so like someone like Chad is a prime example where it's like he could make steady progress without necessarily needing to be intentional about like we need to feed you. He's just going to get what he's getting and it will come as part of the way. But in terms of like development, there are just like a ton of guys on the lower level. This might be like the naming some guys all Stars. Because I, I still want to explore a lot of the depths of like their recent first round picks.
- [83:44]
B
Yeah, I mean, Nikola Topic is just gonna join this team in some capacity. We'll see how much he plays or if there's room for him to play because there are so many good players who are already here. And that's. That's kind of a, like a targeted aim question for the Thunder. They won 68 games. They won the NBA freaking title. What do they want out of this season? Like, do they want guys like Topic to get a shot? Do they want guys like Case and Wallace to dabble in some other stuff that they didn't get to try? Are. Are they going to be open to that or, or kind of embracing that? Or do they want as is their right to just blow everyone out again? Because they could do that. They could win more than 68 games if they wanted to. If that was their focus, they could do it. Talking 70, I mean, I don't think it's crazy. They. They were inches away.
- [84:30]
A
Could happen. I'm glad you mentioned Wallace, though.
- [84:32]
B
Yeah.
- [84:33]
A
Because he's someone.
- [84:34]
B
Well, I always do.
- [84:35]
A
That's absolutely true. He's someone who I think gets put into the door succession role. But to me there's like way more to explore, especially as a ball handler. Yeah, like that's. He did a lot of that at Kentucky and I thought like, he. Whenever he had the ball, he. He handled it much more confidence than he would from a traditional three and D guy. I just wonder, as you mentioned, like, how much time there is really to afford him that. Especially if Caruso is going to play a lot and other guys like that. But also like, if you want to work top of gin, like, does that step on what he could do in sort of that free time? A.J. mitchell and the running from the backup point guard role as well. And so that's where the, like, perhaps the bodies start to trip over themselves. There's only so much you could do on the blue, you know, But I would like to see Wallace afforded that opportunity because I think there's like a lot more there to explore offensively.
- [85:24]
B
I think there's a reason to do with him specifically because if he does develop those wrinkles in his game, it opens up a lot. Like all of, all of a sudden, the possibilities are kind of endless and dizzying. If Topic is good, it's like, that's important. But his style is like, is pretty fast and loose and I think would be interesting creatively. But they're going to need to figure out how it fits. They already know how Kayson Wallace fits. They already know what his defense can do for them. If he's also a productive kind of even just like a run the point, keep the trains running on time, offensive threat. That's a huge thing.
- [85:55]
C
I think the. That's the balance that we talk about. The way that they could do it is to run an Indiana program where Halle was playing like 32 minutes a game. Like, if you do that with J Dub and Shay Gilgeous Alexander and he doesn't care about his second straight mvp and it's just about developing guys being healthy for the playoffs. You can do that.
- [86:21]
B
Yeah.
- [86:22]
C
But you know, some people would be like, you're depriving him of his opportunity to defend his MVP. Can you win MVP playing 31, 32 minutes a game? You know? Right.
- [86:33]
A
There's just a lot to explore as well. Like you mentioned topic, he's just a six, six wing size point guard who was 12th in the draft. Probably could have gone in like the top five of that draft and he was healthy enough.
- [86:43]
B
Does some goofy, amazing shit just like on a regular basis. Instinctively. What kind of actual NBA basketball player is he? I have no clue. But I really hope it was fun.
- [86:53]
C
Watching a little bit of him this summer. I watched it. I was watching on YouTube. I was like, there's something to this kid.
- [86:58]
B
There's something there.
- [86:59]
C
Especially with the, with the size and the sort of instincts. He does have, like a flair for like doing some crazy shit with the passing. Like he's.
- [87:09]
A
Yeah, he's got the European.
- [87:10]
C
Really got a nose for that.
- [87:12]
B
Oh, yeah. And we look, we hit Shea. We talked about Chet's potential ascent. We talked about all these role players, naming some guys. I don't want to gloss over the fact that J Dub just did everything that everyone had asked of him. Especially I would say in Games 4 and 5 of the Finals. Like just was that guy and we'll see. Kind of can he be that guy all the time? Does that in his interest? Is that what the Thunder want to do? I don't know. But the fact that he showed he can perform in exactly that capacity. Something we always should celebrate.
- [87:40]
A
Yeah, I think that's it for the preseason power rankings. Six parts. Many, many hours of NBA discussion. We get a little bit of time off, I guess, because these pods are going to be running while we're just floating in the ether. What are you guys going to do.
- [87:54]
C
With yourself off season?
- [87:55]
A
Jason, you're going to stretch the entire.
- [87:58]
B
Time was going to Abu Dhabi. He's on boots on the ground for the preseason game.
- [88:03]
C
Talk about a place that have no interest in being on a plane and in an Airport in 20 hours in a full cavity shirt to go to. Damn. Look at tall buildings and expensive shit in Abu Dhabi.
- [88:15]
B
Tall buildings and expensive shit's kind of your deal.
- [88:17]
C
No, it's definitely not like, oh, skyscraper. Oh, that's the tallest building in the world. I'm from New York, fam. We've been doing tall buildings. I'm good.
- [88:26]
A
What are you going to do? You do some pods, presumably.
- [88:30]
B
Will I not be on some pods is the question. That day will be satisfying.
- [88:35]
A
Yeah, I don't think that's going to happen, no. But stay tuned because we'll be back doing some pods when the regular season kicks off. Thank you to everyone who listened. Thank you to Victoria Valencia in particular for presiding over our in studio experience. Isaiah Blakely, our trusted producer. Ben Cruz, our trusted friend and producer.
- [88:52]
B
Of course. Victoria and Isaiah just tied for number one on the MVP ballot for for all the heavy lifting for these six pods. Ridiculous.
- [88:59]
A
They're the real big three. All right, we'll catch you next time. Go. Basketball must be 21 plus and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or visit RG Help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.