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- [00:00]
Justin
This episode is brought to you by NBA on Prime. Hey, Justin here. The NBA on Prime is back this Friday with another great double header. The action starts with one of the best rivalries in sports as Luka Doncic and the Los Angeles Lakers face Jaylen Brown and the Boston Celtics. Then Cooper Flag and the Dallas Mavericks meet SGA and the Oklahoma City Thunder. And if you're not a Prime member, that's not a problem. Sign up for a 30 day free trial to get started. The Lakers and Celtics. The Mavericks and Thunder. What a double header, babe. Don't make any plans because this Friday we're watching both of those games. Coverage starts Friday at 6:30pm Eastern only on Prime. Restrictions apply. See Amazon.com Amazon prime for details.
- [00:48]
Howard Beck
This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Fox One is now live. You can stream all your Fox favorites together in one place. The NFL on Fox to big noon Saturday starring Rob Stone with Fox one. You get it all live. Start your seven day free trial today. Offers are subject to change. Go to Fox one for complete terms and conditions. Fox one streaming now. Welcome to the REAL ones. I'm Howard Beck. Joining me today, our good friend Michael Pina. We we are talking about the quartermark of the NBA season. Yeah. Twenty games down, it's time for teams to actually face the reality. Maybe you weren't as good as you thought you were going to be back in July and August or maybe you're way out in front of where you thought you'd be and it's time to make the all in trade. So we go through some of the surprises and disappointments and a few takes maybe we'd like back. Also our MVP of the quarter season, our coach of the quarter season. And of course it's a Tuesday so we will dive into the mailbag. All of that coming up next on the REAL ones. It's the real Ones. Howard Beck, senior writer at the Ringer. Logan Murdoch is off today. Raja Bell, bit under the weather. Get well soon, Raja. But joining me from his luxury penthouse apartment in Brom Hill, about 10 blocks away from me is Ringer senior writer Michael Pina. Pina, how are you, my friend?
- [02:27]
Michael Pina
I'm doing great. I have huge shoes to fill today and I will probably come up short, but I'm happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
- [02:35]
Howard Beck
It's actually multiple shoes. You have to actually fill four different shoes.
- [02:38]
Michael Pina
It's not like it's an impossible task. It's an impossible task.
- [02:42]
Howard Beck
Literally impossible to fit the human body into four shoes, I hope. How was Your Thanksgiving kids have a good time. Do you take them to the parade? Anything fun in the Peanut household?
- [02:55]
Michael Pina
No. Parade. Went to the park, which was nice, and had a bunch of family over. We stayed in New York. It was, it was lovely. The food was excellent, so couldn't ask for more.
- [03:06]
Howard Beck
We had a nice curve in the, the Thanksgiving fair this year. We have friends up in Westchester county who have been hosting us for many years. Appreciate them. Lobster Mac and cheese was added to the, to the menu this year. It was.
- [03:20]
Michael Pina
Oh, that's incredible.
- [03:21]
Howard Beck
That's fantastic. Highly recommend, by the way. By the way, I also do recommend taking the kids to the parade when you, when you get a chance. It's one of the joys of living in New York. We get to do this thing. So it is sometimes very cold and sometimes very rainy. Nevertheless, I recommend it. The kids love it. We're going to jump into a bunch of stuff about the quarter poll of the NBA season because we were right around that time. We are 20, 21 games in for most teams. Before we get to that, quick bit of news this morning. Coming, coming in. Danilo Gallinari retiring. I know a lot of NBA fans probably thought that Gallo had already retired, but he'd been kicking around other leagues. But good, like, nice long NBA run for a guy who had a lot of knee problems once he got to Denver. I just want to give him the quick shout out because I got to cover Gallo as a rookie when he was drafted by the Knicks. A lot of fun to, you know, fun player, had great potential, and for a time there was looking like one of those guys during a long string of those guys that the Knicks thought, okay, this is, this is the guy who's gonna like, finally lead us back to prominence. And he played with Amari for a while there, of course, traded him for Carmelo. He was the key piece of that trade. So he still ends up being kind of key to, to the Knicks kind of coming out of that era. Had a really good career, by the way. He had a couple of, like, really memorable showdowns with Carmelo, I think both before and after that trade where he kind of went toe to toe with him for a while. Dirk Nowitzki even at one point had told me for a story I did that he thought that Gallo was ahead of where Dirk was at a similar point in their careers. Um, didn't work out that way that were that well after that point. But talented, a lot of fun to cover. Had a nice NBA career. So congrats to Gallo and best wishes in, in retirement.
- [05:10]
Michael Pina
I did not, I did not know that, that he retired. Breaking news to me live on the pod. I love those Denver teams from about 15 years ago. Those were wonderful with Iggy and Wilson Chandler and I think Evan Fournier was Timothy Mozgov. Yeah. Oh, who could forget? Those were very fun teams. Very fun.
- [05:28]
Howard Beck
Aaron Aflalo's in there somewhere.
- [05:31]
Michael Pina
Yeah.
- [05:32]
Howard Beck
I mean, rare thing that, you know, normally when you trade the best player in the deal, which Carmelo obviously was, and you're doing that usually at gunpoint, you're never getting full value and you're usually taking massive steps backward. The Nuggets and the Knicks in the couple, two, three seasons after that were basically neck and neck in terms of like wins, playoffs, everything else. Like, they did really well. The Nuggets made as good a trade as they could have made and that assortment of players while not having a superstar to, to orbit around like Carmelo. Those Nuggets teams were actually pretty fun. A lot of fun Nuggets teams there Gallo at the center of it and then he had a knee surgery that went wrong and things were never quite the same for him, which was unfortunate and he bounced around for a while. But anyway, best wishes to Gallo.
- [06:16]
Justin
This episode is brought to you by indeed. It's an exciting time with the NBA cup going on, but whatever happens, one thing remains true. It takes excellent players who know how to work well together and the right moment to reach the top. Your moment is right now. Put together a winning team for your business. With Indeed Sponsors Jobs. It's the best chance you have to make sure your job listing reaches the candidates you want. In fact, it ensures one of the first they see during their search and and according to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed are 90% more likely to report a hire than non sponsored jobs. Get the results you want with Indeed sponsored Jobs. Listeners of this show will get a 75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves@ Indeed.com Ringer MBA that's Indeed.com Ringer MBA right now and support the show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.comringer MBA terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the right way with indeed. Your ambition just met its match with Robinhood. You play for the win. Not just on game day, every day channel that drive into your money Trade stocks and ETFs, options and futures all on one platform. You expect more from yourself. Expect more from your money. Get started today@robinhood.com yourmoney your money, your Move Investing is risky. Securities trading is offered through Robinhood Financial LLC member sipc, a registered broker dealer. Future trading is offered by Robinhood Derivatives LLC and not SPIC or FDIC protected hello. The Ringer NBA show is presented by FanDuel. FanDuel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you could build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com RingerMBA to get started. 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-78977 or visit ccpg.org ChatInElectric Pina, you.
- [08:17]
Howard Beck
Are here today with me to discuss quarter poll of the season, which you touched on in a piece this week@theringer.com with your quarter season awards. We'll touch on a couple of those later. But the reason I wanted to just talk about where we are at this moment is because of course, in the NBA, 20 games is kind of your moments of reckoning. Every team has played, or almost every teams we play between 20 and 22 right now. There's a few that are straggling at like 18, 19, but they'll get there in the next day or two. Teams are taking stock now. Front offices are meeting with each other, with their coaches, with ownership and everything. Because this is when you wake up in early December and realize, oh, we're not quite as good as we thought we were going to be. Maybe we're not a playoff team or maybe we're still a playoff team but not a contender. And maybe, maybe actually we're ahead of schedule. Is it time to be all in? Is it time to be a seller? Trade season's coming up. Those decisions are coming soon. I wanted to look look back real quick because people might think, well, 20 games is like, you know, that's still really early. Like we are very early season. It is true there will be some unexpected changes of pace by some of these teams. But just to look back at last year, this time December 2nd of 2024, this is how the the west looked. Oklahoma was first, they finished first. Houston was second, they finished second. It gets a little weird after that, but like Memphis was third at this time last year, they finished eighth. But the Grizzlies, it's always injuries and other stuff going wrong the warriors were fourth this time last year and finished seventh, but only two games separated third from eighth in the final Western Conference standings. So it's a little misleading. And they got Jimmy in the middle of all of that. The Mavericks at this time last year were 5th and finished 10th. Might have had.
- [10:06]
Michael Pina
What happened to that? What happened, what happened there?
- [10:09]
Howard Beck
I don't know. Is it a mystery?
- [10:12]
Michael Pina
Has that been solved?
- [10:12]
Howard Beck
Some sort of momentary insanity gripped them and suddenly a generational player disappeared. They finished 10th. The Clippers at this time last year were six. They finished fifth. So it tracks quite a bit. In the east, it was even more reliable with like the tiers fairly well tracked. Right. You might be up or down a couple of spots, but by and large, you know, barring some massive trade or massive injury, teams have kind of settled into where they're probably going to be. So it's also been, by the way, I think a fairly calm first quarter of the season. Correct me if you, if you feel like that's an overstatement, but like, yes, Nico Harrison was fired. So we've had one GM go down, one coach go down Willie Green in New Orleans, we've had one job Morant suspension. But this like the salary cap circumvention scandal and the gambling scandal are kind of in the background. So there's no, there's no real major drama like no one has demanded out yet. I think everyone's all of a sudden keeping an eye on Giannis, who apparently deleted a bunch of Buck's stuff from his Instagram this morning, allegedly. So no major drama yet, but it's probably coming things to keep an eye on Bucks 9 and 13. So Giannis mood check daily from here on out. Hawks thriving without Trey keeping an eye on that. Cavs are 13, nine, a little below expectations. And I, I wonder, injuries aside, you know, are they going to look to maybe have a minor shakeup? Not a major one. Wolves have been kind of up and down. Suns are off to such a fast start that I'm now fearing that Matt HB is going to make an all another all in move any, any minute now because like, hey, why not? We're on, we're on John Morant watch at all times. We might be on Clipper Fire sale watch. We'll get to it. And then there's just some teams that are just, they're miserable and they're. Then they're just already done. All right. So as we look ahead though, I think we need to look back a little bit to everything that we thought was Going to happen in October. Let's start here. Mr. Pina, what's one preseason take that you would like to retract as we hit the quarter poll? As in we were just wrong.
- [12:25]
Michael Pina
So every year I write an increasingly bold predictions column at the Ringer.
- [12:31]
Howard Beck
One of my favorite things.
- [12:32]
Michael Pina
Oh, thank you so much. It comes out a few weeks before the year starts and the idea is to be serious but also increasingly a little bit facetious with what I'm thinking will happen this season. And one of my predictions was that the Phoenix Suns would have the worst defense in the NBA. It prompted Suns owner Matt Ishbia to tweet angrily at our boss, Bill Simmons. And you know what? Matt Ishbia was right. The Suns have been tremendous. That was a really stupid prediction on my part. I love watching this team play basketball. I love their tenacity, I love their relentlessness. I love their game plan execution. I love just their, like the fact that they are winning games and winning minutes without Devin Booker being superhuman. Like right now they're 13 and 9. And granted it's been against a little bit of a semi soft schedule and if you look at what's to come, it's an absolute bloodbath and they could really slide down the standings. But for now, I mean, it's just been like excellent. Like they're better with Devin Booker off the floor. He's averaging his typical 25 and 7, but he's not really super efficient or anything like that. They're winning with just like hard work, effort, discipline. Dylan Brooks has been phenomenal and last night he was like the best player on the court in a game that had LeBron James, Luka Doncic and Austin Reeves in it. Colin Gillespie. I'm, I'm sorry, I was not familiar with your game. I would have, I would not have made that prediction if I knew that he would just be this like sixth man of the year candidate, most improved player of the year candidate. He's been unbelievable, like a true.
- [14:32]
Howard Beck
Season.
- [14:33]
Michael Pina
Turning type of player. And I will say, like in my defense, before I let you speak, Howard, a part of my prediction was that Jalen Green was going to be playing a lot of minutes for this team.
- [14:46]
Howard Beck
And you mean their key off season acquisition.
- [14:50]
Michael Pina
Exactly. And so him playing, I think like one game, two games this year, one and a half games, that has definitely helped. I mean, someone like Colin Gillespie, for example, would not have broken out, I don't think with the opportunity that he had. So yeah, like, I don't want to. I'm just going to. Yeah, I was wrong. I take accountability for it. The Suns are great. Love watching them play. They're hard to beat like that. They, they lost a recent game against the Oklahoma City Thunder and normally the Thunder just kind of pull away late in games and that was just like the, the Suns don't quit is I guess what I'm trying to say. And so shout out to them. They're tremendous. Shout out to Jordan Ott. He was an honorable mention for coach of the year in my quarter season awards column. And this team has been probably the biggest overachiever of the season. I would say.
- [15:47]
Howard Beck
Yeah, I mean, it's them and the Raptors neck and neck, but I would actually give the Suns the edge because the Raptors, you know, had a lot more established, I don't want to say established high end talent, but a lot more established players, period. And the Suns were in what was kind of a pseudo teardown and I don't think anybody knew where, where this would pan out and with a rookie head coach to boot. So, yeah, really incredible stuff. I look forward to your extensive Twitter apology to, to manage for you to add to that chain. And yeah, I mean, shame on you. You know, really, really just terrible stuff. I mean, listen, in your defense, and it doesn't even need defending, the whole point of that column is increasingly bold predictions. So the point is to take the sliver of something and take it to its logical extreme, which you did. And, and I think if I'm recalling correctly, Michael, wasn't that one like a little lower in the column? So, like you go increasingly bold. So that one was one of the bolder.
- [16:46]
Michael Pina
It was pretty bold.
- [16:47]
Howard Beck
Yeah. Right. Pretty bold. They're not all intended to be right, quote, unquote. Right, right. Like usually you're ending with a few that are just actually preposterous and you're just having fun.
- [16:56]
Michael Pina
If you had a gun to my head, I would have said the Sacramento Kings, but I'm writing this column to try to be provocative.
- [17:02]
Howard Beck
So yeah, yeah, that's, that's the point. Matt Ishbia may not have quite understood the point of the exercise, but that's okay. Matt Ishbia, don't make any trades between now and just, just, just chill. Just enjoy the ride. The preseason take I would most like back is at the other end of the spectrum, which is that I was pretty damn sure the Clippers were a top four team in the Western Conference. I had Ty Lue as my preseason coach of the year. I even had Chris Paul in a giddy fit of Pino, like bold predictions. I even had CP3 as my six man of the year.
- [17:37]
Michael Pina
You did?
- [17:38]
Howard Beck
I believe I did, yeah.
- [17:40]
Michael Pina
Wow. Wow. 40 year old Chris. Wow.
- [17:44]
Producer Cliff
Wow.
- [17:45]
Howard Beck
It was, it look, there was a lot of, there was a lot wrapped up in that part of it was he'd had a perfectly, you know, sound solid season with, with San Antonio. He was coming to a Clipper team that you knew he was going to be a full time reserve for the first time in his career. But he's always been like an incredible like plus minus darling, advanced stats darling. Where the, the advanced stats were going to support the idea that like hey, their second unit is this much better because Chris Paul is out there and the Clippers, while old, they were deep at least so we thought in October and I, I thought that given where they left off last season, they would pick it right up and Chris Paul would get a lot of credit for having a great second unit or a very good second unit. Plus, you know, look, there's, there's a little bit of nostalgia wrapped up here. Back to the Clippers where he launched Lob City and put them back or put them on the map for the first time as a franchise ever. The likely farewell tour, which is what it's become. It was a bit of a reach. You know, put that after whatever your boldest, increasingly bold prediction was in your column and it would still be too bold probably. I thought they would be, you know, old but deep. And they did win 50 games last year with Kawhi playing only 37 out of 82 and Harden was still great and Zubacz was excellent. Adding Beal, Chris Paul, Brook Lopez, John Collins, it all seemed like, okay, they'll do the same thing again at minimum. I think the lesson here is that I completely underrated Norm Powell on both ends of this. How important he was to the Clippers and how important he would end up becoming to the Miami Heat who are one of the surprise good teams of the quarter season. And I just did not like, I could not imagine Norm Powell like it was a breakthrough season, All Star caliber, flirted with season. Did not think in, in my wildest dreams that Norm Powell was going would have been so critical to the Clippers and their success last season and now to what the Heat are doing because it's the only major change there. I think there are some chemistry things going on. I think there are some aspirations, scandal things seeping in. I think there's just, things are just kind of, you know, sometimes things just go off the rails without notice. But from a personnel standpoint, like, dude, how much do they miss Norm Powell right now? And was that perhaps, you know, we can get into later maybe some of the, you know, deals that went awry this summer. But that might have been a mistake. And I mentioned this on, I think it was on Zack's pod recently. I understood what they were doing. They're trying to keep their cap sheets clear in 2027 when only Zubacs is on the books. Powell's do a big extension which at his stage, you know, in early 30s, they probably were hesitant or definitely were going to be hesitant to want to do. But you could have always moved them again if you still wanted to create more room in 27. And it was, I mean hindsight's 20 20, it was a bad deal. It was a bad trade.
- [20:54]
Michael Pina
I don't want to step on one of our prompts coming up which was the, you know, worst deal that you thought would be a good deal or something like that. But yeah, that was, that was mine. Just, you know, to, to be fair to the Clippers and I just wrote a column, my first negative column about the Los Angeles clippers in about seven years that'll be on the ringer.com later this week. But you know, to be fair to the Clippers, they thought that they, it's not like they traded Norm Powell for John Collins and they were just going to leave this hole at that position. They had a feeling or knew that Bradley Beal was going to be on the team. They knew and they did not know that Bradley Beal would be terrible for six games and then have hip surgery and be out for the rest of the season. So I think if they had a crystal ball and they were able to see that they would lose that type of production from that position. I don't know if they would have made that trade and it has been a total disaster for them. And you know, where do you even begin with the Los Angeles Clippers? I mean a lot of the other signings, like nothing has gone right. It's, it's, it's a gallon of milk that is several days past its expiration date. Brook Lopez was a serviceable starting center last season. He is currently out of Tyloo's rotation with Kobe Brown taking his spot. That is also something that I don't anticipate think that the Clippers anticipated when they signed him to a two year deal this summer. They did not know that Derrick Jones Jr. Would get hurt obviously spraying his MCL. He's out about another month Chris Paul has not looked spry. And what's really interesting about this is obviously the defense. You know, they go from third best defense to like third worst defense or something like that right now after a total shellacking against the Miami Heat that saw Ty Lue bench his starting five not even two minutes into the second half last night. But what's really interesting about this is James Harden and Kawhi Leonard have been excellent. Like, excellent. And so if you told me that James Harden was going to have his best statistical start to a season since he was in Houston, and you told me that Kawhi Leonard would score more points on higher true shooting through his first 11 games of a season than any other season in his entire career, which is what he's done. And the clippers would be minus 42 with Kawhi on the court. I would not believe you based on Kawhi's entire history of when he's on the floor, his team is good. When he's playing well on the floor, like even better. So I don't know. I just don't know where they go from here as an organization knowing that the Oklahoma City Thunder own their first round pick in this year's draft. And, you know, I don't want to step on the column too much, but like, trading Kawhi Leonard is totally on the table, in my opinion and something that should definitely be explored there.
- [24:03]
Howard Beck
There might be a mailbag question to this effect that we'll get to at the end of the episode. So we'll, we'll come back to this most likely. All right, next one is one stubborn take. Also in the category of things we might have been wrong about in October, one stubborn take you're sticking to despite the results through 20 games, like data be damned, standings be damned. I still believe. What?
- [24:29]
Michael Pina
I still believe that the Celtics are bad and they will miss the playoffs.
- [24:35]
Howard Beck
Wow. Just. Just turning on your own childhood team like that. Yeah, that's a rough beat.
- [24:41]
Michael Pina
So Right now they're 11 and 9. They are in 8th place in the Eastern Conference, but they rank 11th in net rating and they rank 4th in offensive rating. And I don't really, I kind of get how this is happening. I think that Joe Missoula has completely reoriented how they play defense to accommodate the roster. He's, you know, basically, I don't want to say he's punted on defensive rebounding and punted on defensive free throw rate to up turnovers, but that is exactly what has happened. And the result is Boston is basically Leading the possession game, which is, you know, they've taken more shots than their opponent this season, which is not how Oklahoma City won the title last year, but was a huge reason why the Thunder won the championship last season. They just had more possessions and more opportunities than their opponent. So I think that that is a really smart thing that Missoula has enacted with this roster, with athletes and youth and all that sort of stuff. But the other thing I kind of want to talk about is Jaylen Brown and he's having a. He's, you know, some of his numbers have dipped a little bit because we're technically in a small sample. And when you go 3 for 13 against the Cleveland Cavaliers, as they did the other night, things will get impacted a little bit. But he's still the league leader in mid range shot attempts and he's more accurate from the mid range than just about everyone who's high volume. Devin Booker, Kevin Durant, Shai Gilgeous Alexander. In fact, from the mid range right now, Jaylen Brown is better than Shay was last year when Shay won MVP and was just absolutely lights out from on long twos. I mean, Jaylen Brown is hitting these off balance shots, contested shots, late clock shots, really difficult, high degree of difficulty stuff. And I, you know, I, he's just never done this before at this rate taking these type of shots. And I don't know what it means in terms of sustainability and I don't know what it means in terms of if it is real. And he is basically like, you know, more athletic. Kawhi Leonard to a certain extent, like what does that do for his future on a team that is adding Jayson Tatum? And I say I asked that question in a positive light and how much higher does it raise the ceiling of that duo? So those are just something I want to get. Something I just wanted to kind of throw at you from what you've seen with Jaylen Brown. And I have a few more stats I'll throw at you with him after you kind of hit me back with your thoughts. But I just think the Celtics are like bad and I don't, I really.
- [27:38]
Howard Beck
Don'T like don't be bad.
- [27:40]
Michael Pina
Yeah, I just don't get it.
- [27:42]
Howard Beck
Listen, I was all over the map with them in the off season because there was a part of this where I thought you listen. Just, just the basics core of the team, right. Jaylen Brown's a great player. Like hasn't had a carry team by himself, but is an incredibly talented player. Finals MVP Derek White, really good player in A bigger role. I can handle more. And Peyton Pritchard backfilling, kind of Derrick White, then, okay, you've got, like, these three great offensive generators and, you know, some, some defense there to go with it. And then you, and then it falls off a cliff as you look at basically almost the rest of the, the roster and especially the front court, right? And you think, just as you start to talk yourself into, as I was in the off season, you know what? I think they can defy expectations. I think they can be respectable without Jason Tatum, just not a contender. They'll be, they could be at the fringes of the playoff pack. They'll be in the play in something. And then you start to see the rotation in the, in the front court, and it's like, oh, good Lord. And I landed a little bit closer to you than where I was originally in the preseason, thinking, yeah, shouldn't put a lot of stock in this, even despite the fact that Missoula is just going to do everything possible to never let them lose. Jalen Brown, I was watching him against the Timberwolves the other night. Did Jalen Brown, like, surgically acquire new hands in the off season? It was the best handle I think I've ever seen on him. Multiple times on multiple possessions. He's putting the ball between his legs, crossing over once, twice, three times, you know, getting guys off balance, blowing by or fading away. And I'm like, his, I don't want to say Achilles heel. Achilles is a dangerous word to invoke in any context in the NBA. Now, his, his weakness had long been as a guy who was otherwise an elite offensive player. An elite player, period. Like, the handle, you know, you know, make Jalen Brown put the ball on the floor a little too much, and, and it's going to work to your advantage as a defense. And he just looked completely like a completely different player with that in that game. I mentioned this to a scout last night who said, yeah, that depends on which game you were watching. Because, like, like, that was a, that was one of his better games. And then there have been a couple recently, I guess, one that I didn't see where, where it's still, like, squirting away from him. But look, I, I, I think I'm leaning more toward, you know, recency bias is, is kicking in. I still, I think I'm still leaning toward the idea that the Celtics can be respectable throughout the course of the season. I do think that, like, when you're relying so much on a couple of players and, and, or do not have the depth. It. It probably catches up to you in the course of an 82 game season. But the east is mostly meh to horrendous. And so the possibility of the Celtics still being respectable in context, meaning they can be in the play in hunt for sure and maybe seventh or eighth seed when all said and done. Not crazy.
- [30:37]
Michael Pina
Some of my skepticism is based on the talent and to be honest, some of it is based on the fact that they're a smart organization and they should realize that this season is a golden opportunity to tank. Like I just being upfront about it. Like what?
- [30:50]
Howard Beck
Like yes.
- [30:50]
Michael Pina
Why? Why? Like what is the upside here to do this? I don't understand it. Yeah, can I real quick, before we move on, can I throw at you that the Jaylen Brown stat that I just found so unbelievable. So right now, true shot attempts are basically all the shots you take on the court, including free throws per 100 possessions. Brown right now leads the league in that, in that stat. But beyond that, going back 10 years, here are the players who have topped the number that Jalen Brown is at in terms of true shot attempts he takes per 100 possessions. Russell Westbrook in 2017, James Harden in 2019 and Joel Embiid in 2023. That's it. So he's shooting a ton. It's like, like we expected that, but for him to be for him, sure. And you know, the efficiency is kind of dropping down slowly, which is what you'd expect. But he's carrying a load and I just think he's been so excellent. I expected the volume to go up in a lot of areas, obviously without Tatum, Drew Kristaps porzingis, Al Horford, etc. But I just think he's been like an all NBA player this season easily.
- [32:11]
Howard Beck
No, no question. And I don't want to put too much on this, but there, you know, there were for years rumblings about when people talked about Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown long term. Part of the reason that people speculated a lot about the most possibly being broken up was these constant murmurings that Jaylen Brown feels like he could lead his own team, he could do more. He's getting his chance to do it now. And look to his credit, he has shown he is more than capable of being the offensive engine of a team right now. I'm not trying to start anything and I don't think this means that eventually when Tatum is healthy, suddenly you're going to like move off of Jalen Brown. That's fucking crazy. They are great together. I'VE always thought they were great together. That is in today's NBA, you know, two big wings who can do a lot of stuff with the ball in their hands and defend multiple positions. Like, that's a great starting point. I'm keeping it. There's, you know, there are cap issues. There always are in today's NBA. But like this, what we're seeing from Jaylen Brown now is what people always said this is, this was his belief that he, he could be this guy and that he didn't necessarily need to be a second fiddle. But in this league, you know, if you want to win championships and contend year and year out, sometimes you have to be the guy who's capable of being a leading, leading man and, and accepting kind of the 1a, 1b role because it's what's, it's what's best for your, your overall career and your ability to, you know, win more hardware. So the stubborn take I'm sticking to, despite the results through 20 games, I still believe in the Warriors. Shocker. Glad Logan's not on the pod today to just like, you know, make awful faces at me, fall over in his chair and then berate me. They're 12 and 7. Like, they're, they're fine. I still think they're potentially a top six team in the West. They've had a brutal schedule so far. 12 of their first 17 were on the road, five back to backs already. And it's not to the extent that they've struggled a bit here and there. It's not because the old guys can't handle it, like Curry's missed whatever, four or five games. But Curry, Draymond, Butler, that they're still all doing what they do. It's Jonathan Kuminga, like the youngest important member of the starting lineup and top rotation guy who's been missing. And there were, there were some really great signs from him for the first week or two and then some not so great signs and then he got hurt inevitably. I think one of two things is going to happen to make me still believe in the, in the Warriors. Either Kaminga is coming back and will be fine and maybe play more like the guy we saw the first couple weeks, or they're moving off of him, they're trading him and they're getting better fitting help around their old core. And what we have seen consistently from this team is that they are going to make moves like they're not going to sit tight and just let the string run out on Steph Curry's era. If there's anything they can do between now and the trade deadline, they'll do it. So I still think they're, they're at least in the running for a top six spot in the west, so I'm sticking to that. Any, any, any rebuttal or hole punching before we move on to the next topic?
- [35:14]
Michael Pina
No, I think that that's, that's fair. I, you know, after the first like three games of the season, I thought they look like a contender. And I've, if you were to ask me today, I'd be very, very surprised if they won a playoff series, to be honest, which, you know, says a lot about the Western Conference and where they will be when they enter the playoffs. Most likely going up against the Nuggets or the Thunder or the Rockets in round one, most likely. But Steph has had just, I know he's, he's hurt now and we'll be out a little bit with. What is it, a quad, I think. But he's been superhuman in spots, typically brilliant. And I think like this is low key. A genius season from Jimmy Butler. I think he's been like really flying under the radar as one of the better two way wings in basketball this year. He's just, he looks, he looks vintage more often than not. So that's, that's good to see. But yeah, I think this team has size issues and you know, Al Horford's battling sciatica, which not ideal. So we'll, we'll see. But you know, I think they have a long way to go before they're in kind of that top tier conversation.
- [36:38]
Howard Beck
Yeah. And look like the defense has been solid, the offense is like in the bottom third of the league. I don't think a team with Steph Curry on it should be or ultimately will be bottom third in offensive efficiency. But again, like the schedule is beaten the hell out of them too, I think. And they're gonna, that, that turns in their favor soon. Right? More home games and they got a lot of back to back. So.
- [37:01]
Justin
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- [37:33]
Howard Beck
Learn more Already out of the way.
- [37:35]
Michael Pina
This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime.
- [37:38]
Howard Beck
The holidays move fast and Amazon prime.
- [37:40]
Michael Pina
Keeps you in control with fast and free delivery. We've all been there.
- [37:44]
Howard Beck
Family plans are fluid, somebody's not coming.
- [37:46]
Michael Pina
Suddenly they are coming and you're excited about it.
- [37:48]
Howard Beck
You want to get them a gift.
- [37:49]
Michael Pina
So you hop on Amazon prime, line.
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Howard Beck
That up with their interests and it's.
- [37:52]
Michael Pina
Easy to do because Amazon has everything. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and it just can't wait.
- [38:01]
Howard Beck
Need that last minute gift or holiday essential?
- [38:03]
Michael Pina
It's on Prime. Head to Amazon.com/prime to shop now.
- [38:08]
Howard Beck
All right, next one up, one bold or boldish take you were right about and that Matt Ashbia did not berate you about.
- [38:19]
Michael Pina
So I predicted before this season that the Milwaukee Bucks were would be bad enough to finish in the play in and have no serious chance of doing any damage in the playoffs. I thought that Giannis would eventually break down physically, trying to do everything for a team that was built to compliment him but not really stand on its own two feet when he was not on the floor. And that has borne out pretty much almost exactly. So I understood heading into the season a lot of smart people being high on the Milwaukee Bucks because Giannis is incredible and has had one of his best seasons. But I just always went back to looking at the roster and it is just so underwhelming to me in terms of the lack of versatility, the lack of talent and the lack of like capable ball handling playmaking stuff that you need in today's NBA. So real quick, I'll give you their last three wins dating back to November 10th, which was a two point win over the Dallas Mavericks that precipitated Nico Harrison getting fired. They had an overtime win over the Charlotte Hornets and they beat Brooklyn a few days ago.
- [39:49]
Howard Beck
That's their last three wins.
- [39:51]
Michael Pina
Those are their last three wins. Look at that competition last night they lost the Washington Wizards which just. Yeah, Giannis deleted all of his Bucs related posts from social media except for.
- [40:04]
Howard Beck
The championship photos which I saw were still there.
- [40:06]
Michael Pina
You can't delete the championship photos. Come on now.
- [40:09]
Howard Beck
Come on. Yeah, but that's a very dramatic. I don't know what to make. What do you. What do we make of like I this is where I hate the era we're living in because stuff like this, we're always reading tea leaves on fucking Instagram and other dumb places. And when I saw that somebody else had posted that this morning, I'm like, what, Is this real? Because, you know, the people who track that stuff, like, first of all, there's just so many, like, ridiculous, whether they're parody accounts or just not reliable, not, not, not accurate accounts and that re. They spit this stuff out. People who are credible pick it up. And then. So I, I wanted to go back and look, and the only thing I saw was that, okay, there's only like nine posts on his Instagram now, including that Bucks championship shot. But, like, I don't know, do we have any proof that there were like, hundreds of Bucks photos that are now gone? Or. I don't know. I. I'm always a little skeptical. I don't know what to believe anymore.
- [41:08]
Michael Pina
Yeah, I think this is just, like, become the traditional passive aggressive way that disgruntled NBA stars like to convey their unhappiness. And if he did it, then that's great. It also provides, like, plausible deniability that, hey, yeah, sure, I just wanted to clean my social media. Big deal, nothing to do with anything. So I, you know, I don't really think about this stuff too much. But more like the on court fact that they lost to the Washington Wiz, like, that is.
- [41:38]
Howard Beck
We should be on catastrophic. We should be on Giannis. Watch on the results alone. And I said this before the season, and I'll reiterate it now, it's not so much of what Giannis has said or not said. There's some of that too, though. But we always knew that the first quarter of this season, the first few months of this season were going to have some sort of impact on Giannis's mood and potentially his future. And anybody who denied that is delusional. The guy wants to win championships. He has been absolutely consistent about that. He has given the Bucks all the latitude and the time in the world to try to rebuild around him, and it's not gone that well. It just hasn't. And Ryan Rollins is a fantastic find, and he's been a real nice bright spot.
- [42:21]
Michael Pina
He's been great. He's been great.
- [42:23]
Howard Beck
But the results are what they are. And if the, if the Instagram deletion binge wasn't the warning sign or the warning shot, there still may be one to come. Like, it was always going to be the case that if they started the season really badly, then the speculation about Giannis would be ramping up. And we are right there. It's unfortunate.
- [42:47]
Michael Pina
How do you think Giannis felt when Khris Middleton hit the go ahead jumper to basically put that game away. And Kyle Kuzma, I think he scored like three points in the whole game. Most inconsistent player in the NBA, probably so, not, not ideal.
- [43:04]
Howard Beck
Kuzma has just enough games where I'm watching going like, oh, wow, look, there's the old, like, la Kuzma again. Like, he's, you know, he's, he's defending. He's. He's playing hard. He's. He's. He's going hard to the rack, like. And so. And then, then the other guy comes back. Washington Kuzma comes back. I will once again repeat. Free C.J. free C.J. mcCollum. He deserves better. He had a big shot in that game last night.
- [43:25]
Michael Pina
Oh, yeah.
- [43:27]
Howard Beck
All right, where did we leave off here? One bullish take. You were right about. We got yours. It's time for mine. I did say probably not with this particular explanation or, or, or support for the, the take. I did say I thought the Sixers were going to be a lot better than expected, that they would be competitive, that they'd be respectable, that they'd be back in the thick of things. Okay, sure. I, I said that because I thought that Joel Embiid and Paul George would be like some semblance of their old selves for a consistent amount of time, and they're not, but they're good. Anyway, I'm just taking the victory lap. Fuck it. Like, the Sixers have been really fun. They've been competitive. Tyrese Maxey is on an all NBA campaign right now, and, you know, Edgecomb has been very good. He was, he was great. And then, you know, slowing down a little bit, looking like maybe the, the minutes and. And load were catching up to him. Then he got hurt. Quentin Grimes has been good for them. Like, they're very guard heavy right now. And, you know, I, I don't even know what to make of Paul George and Joel Embiid anymore. Although Paul George looked pretty good a couple nights ago when I watched Embiid. Looked labored to say the least, but he'd always also just come back again from a couple weeks out. I still think stubbornly that there's. There's the outline of a, Of a decent team here because Joel Embiid no longer has to be the man. Tyrese Maxey's the man now, and whatever they can get out of Embiid and Paul George is, is a bonus. That said, can I just say, though.
- [45:08]
Michael Pina
Like, yeah, Embiid, his whole, like, forget about, like, the contract and how that Just.
- [45:14]
Howard Beck
That's a whole other problem. Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's a future.
- [45:17]
Michael Pina
Forget about that. Forget about that. But his whole, like, his role on a team is like, his best function is as the center of gravity on offense. The guy who touches the ball a ton. You run everything through him. You get the, the pick and pops, you get the just mid post shoot. Excellent shooting, a lot of touches, a lot of post touch. Just, he's, he has the ball a lot. And if he's not able to do that because you're trying to kind of shift your offense towards Maxi and Edgecomb and, you know, Paul George for the time being when he's available, Quentin Grimes, etc. Like, he needs to be excellent on defense and he's not. That's like one of his worst attributes is the fact that he can't move, he can't get to loose balls, he can't affect the glass like he used to. He's not an excellent rim protector anymore. He doesn't run the floor. I mean, like, their transition defense when he's on the court is dreadful. So I, I don't, I don't. I don't know how you kind of shift from Embiid as the center of everything on offense to your guard. Heavy play. If Embiid is a net minus on defense, because I need rebounding, I need rim running, I need, I need something else from that position if I'm going to have Maxi and all the guards and ball handlers kind of shepherd my offense going forward. Does that, does that make sense?
- [46:55]
Howard Beck
No, it totally does. Here's the thing. It's so hard for us to adjust and recalibrate our expectations of a guy who has been a star throughout his career and suddenly isn't anymore, but could still contribute, right? Like, I don't know, late stages. Paul Pierce or something with Brooklyn and Washington and la, trying to think of other guys who were, you know, Grant Hill and Phoenix and granted, like, these are. These are different kinds of players. I'm just saying that we need to see Joel Embiid differently now. And so do the Sixers, and I think they do. This is not the center of our universe in the center of our offense, and we're not using them in all the wonderful ways that we used to. In which you just listed. It's. Now, here's a guy who is still skilled than most, more skilled than most big men in this. In this league. And even on a. It was a terrible game from the other night, he still ends up with like 18 points because he can shoot and he doesn't. Like, he doesn't jump anymore or at least wasn't in that game. But he doesn't need a lot of lift to get the shot off over most guys anyway. I think it was really alarming seeing how unwilling he was to go anywhere near the basket and not even trying to rebound. Like watching a shot just kind of sail overhead and it was clear that it's offline and you're waiting to see him move and he's just. He's just watching. Is he just conserving himself in the first game back after another absence? Is he's just being really careful because of everything he's gone through? Is there another gear or two to get to as he hopefully stays healthy for some semblance of weeks at a time? I don't know. Your point's well taken, especially about the defensive side of it. I think they can get away with him just being a contributor on offense who makes open shots, who can. Who can score from a variety of places and doesn't even have to put the ball on the floor and attack the basket to do it.
- [48:45]
Michael Pina
Agree, Agree.
- [48:47]
Howard Beck
But he. They have to get something from him as a defender and rebounder and paint presence, something because right now Andre Drummond looks like their better option, and that's just insane. And as they're going to double overtime the other night, and I'm thinking, like, how long are they going to ride with him? Like, how long are you doing? I think, like they're, they're like keeping him out there out of respect right now and out of. Out of deference, more so than who their best option might have. Now, Drummond was banged up, too. And you know, there's the. They start to have limited options, but still, Embiid's play has been alarming, let's be clear. But the Sixers are competitive enough for me to still say I'm right on the. The overall take. I'm gonna leave it there. All right, few more before we get to Mailbag. We've already touched on this, so we don't need to dwell on it because I think we have the same answer. But I had asked you in our, in the notes before the show, give me one trade signing, hiring, something in the offseason that's worked out either way better or worse than expected. We have both mentioned Norm Powell, and I think he's the answer for both of us. And he fits both ends of this, too, right? Worked out way better than expected, I think, for the Heat and way worse than expected for the Clips. I don't know if there's much more to say about it other than since we've talked about the Clippers. Maybe it's just a chance to praise the revived, unexpectedly super fun and super competitive Miami Heat with Norm Powell at the center of it and carrying them for six weeks or whatever it was until Tyler Herro got back.
- [50:19]
Michael Pina
The Heater, my favorite team to watch in the league this season. I love their style of play. It's singular, it's, it's breakneck. It's just a joy to observe every night. It's unlike anyone else and it's perfect for Norm Powell. I mean, he's just, he, he's such a seamless, scalable offensive player and he's just run with it and the tempo. The. We're not really running anything. We're just, you know, we're attacking in transition. You get your, your, your spot up threes on fast breaks. You can come off these little dribble handoffs and attack the paint. Uh, I, I, he's, it's just a kind of a perfect role for him. And it took him a little while to get going last night against the, against his former team, but once he did, he was just drilling open threes because the Clippers can't guard the perimeter. So, yeah, it's a, it's a fantastic situation for him. I would love to see him get paid and I would love to see him make the All Star team. I think it would be a great story and I think he's more than deserving, for sure.
- [51:33]
Howard Beck
I have not started looking at like, how that's all going to play out now with the new format and ballots that are separated by us born players versus international, all that. I, I don't know if that'll get him, if he's going to get squeezed because of it, but he's absolutely deserving. We'll get to that exercise on another day.
- [51:51]
Michael Pina
Hopefully not. Can we not? I don't want to.
- [51:54]
Howard Beck
Yeah, yeah, we don't need to do that. So we'll just, it's just going to play out how it does. It's just. Yeah, I can't, I can't even follow it anymore. We'll hope for the best. Shout out to Norman Powell. But by the way, too, just with the Heat, I love the fact that not only is Spolster just so malleable in his coaching philosophy as, as everyone has touched on by this point, but like he's the way they're playing in today's NBA it is fascinating and I think encouraging and, and just super fun to see a team that says basically like, all right, we, we don't have the talent to out talent. You, you know, we don't have Jimmy Butler anymore. We don't even have Tyler Herro. Norm Powell has never even made an all star team. But there's a way to, there's a way to do this where we, we just play great team basketball. The ball is moving, players are moving, nobody holds it for too long and you know, the pass is faster than, than your defender's feet. And we're going to find openings and we're just going to keep attacking until we get an open shot. And to, to be able to be that competitive without having star power is really important in a league where there really aren't that many game changing players. And it's great seeing teams be creative in finding new ways to deploy their guys. And this is, no, you know, this is not knocking Bam out of bio, who obviously is a star of a different sort, and even Norm Powell, but these are not your prototypical. I'm going to build around this guy. He's my foundation and everything else flows from there. So anyway, it's been a lot of fun. All right, a couple of quick ones before we get to the mailbag. Will the Oklahoma City Thunder break the single season WINS Record of 73? And should they want to.
- [53:46]
Michael Pina
I'm going to go no. I think that the Thunder are exceptional. I also think that injuries, self preservation, you know, they're coming off a finals run, they're gearing up for another finals run. Like just, you don't need to put your foot on the gas. I know that they're really deep and young, but just don't risk anything would be my advice if anyone ever listened to me. But I also, you know, am taking note of the fact that they've had the easiest schedule in the league, which has been talked about ad nauseam, and the hardest remaining schedule. And the west is really tough. So they're excellent. I'm surprised every time a game is even competitive in the fourth quarter with them, to be honest. Like, that's how good they are. I have nothing bad to say. I just think that 73, 74 wins is a crap ton. And for a team that like, I just think like their goal should be to repeat as champions and it's really hard to do both as the Golden State warriors found out several years back.
- [55:01]
Howard Beck
Right. And even for all of that, and I think the warriors themselves have maybe not all of Them, some of them have admitted that maybe it was, it took a lot out of them and was not the wisest approach. That is a good lesson for everybody else to follow if you have any chance. Not that anybody ever usually does except for right now. But that is a good lesson learned for anybody else who even thinks about trying to chase that record. And despite all that, the warriors still could have won the championship if not Draymond getting suspended in the middle of the series. I don't think they're going to get it, the Thunder, and I don't think they should want to. I think winning back to back champions championships, especially now in an era of just, you know, unrivaled parody and how difficult it is to repeat at all, that should be your sole focus. This is a really, really smart organization from top to bottom and I think because they're smart, they're, they're going to put the brakes on at some point. They're not going to allow them themselves to be overextended between Sam Presti, Mark Dagno. They're just not going to overextend their guys. I mean, the good news for them is that Shea doesn't even have to play fourth quarters half the time and it's still putting up incredible numbers. So I think it's on the table and it wouldn't shock me if they got it, but I think that some combination of they're, they're just not going to chase it some. You know, there will be some injuries along the way, some fatigue along the way. Everybody hits their dog days at some point where you're just kind of dragging a little bit. You know, they'll lose a couple of games and everybody will freak out and say what the hell, what's wrong with the Thunder? But it's just hard to stay on that pace to win 73. So no, I don't think they will and I don't think they should. At the other end of the spectrum, nobody's on pace to chase the single season loss record also 73 held by the 197273 Sixers who went 9. 73. The 201516 Process Era Sixers looked like they were going to shatter this and they still end up winning 10 games. And that was the tanking team poster child for all time. It's really as hard as it is to win 73, it's really hard to lose 73. So I think I've already made part of the case against But Pina is any of these, are any of these teams the Pelicans currently on pace for 12 wins. Wizards on pace for 13. Nets on pace for 16. Pacers on pace for 15 to 16 out. And then the, the, the dark horses to chase the loss record. Clippers and Kings reach pace for 19. Like, that's your, that's your field of teams that one more bad injury or wrong move and they could be in danger of, of it. Does anybody challenge that record?
- [57:45]
Michael Pina
I mean, a couple of those teams that you just named don't have their first round pick in this year's draft. So if they did break the record, it would, that would be something catastrophic. Yeah, I, I don't think that any records will be broken. I think these teams have. No organization wants that record. I don't think that that is like, given the flattening of the lottery odds, I don't think that the juice is worth the squeeze there. To go down as the worst team ever and then get like the fourth pick in the Dr. That's just, you don't want to do that. So I would say no. I also, the Brooklyn Nets are really an interesting case where they could go into a really aggressive tank mode. Whether that be kind of trading off some of the, their veteran contributors or just, I don't know, just, you know, not playing. Michael, Michael Porter Jr. Has been excellent this year. Nick Claxton's been pretty good. Just Terrence Mann is around as a Swiss army knife of sorts. If they traded those guys or bench them or whatever, I, I still think like that. I don't know, like, I still think Jordy Fernandez is too good of a coach. I don't think any team would, would, would, would touch this record, to be honest with you.
- [59:16]
Howard Beck
I, I don't think so either. In part because this is a big tanking year, this is a great draft year and because so many teams, like there's a race to the bottom and they are jockeying for position. But you don't have to have the worst record. You just have to have one of the three worst to have the best odds. And even then, as you note, you're not guaranteed anything. But the fact we have this many bad teams means that when those guys play each other, they're giving each other wins in some form, in some sequence of events. Right? So it's.
- [59:40]
Michael Pina
That is true.
- [59:42]
Howard Beck
You need to be like almost the lone bad team so everybody else can kick the shit out of you to get to 73 losses. I don't think it's going to happen. I do think there's going to be just some horrendous epic, tanking competition going on in March and April because despite the changed odds, despite the results, despite the Mavericks jumping from whatever, 11th to first and everything, teams are still going to play the odds. And we just listed a bunch of teams that are absolutely doing that this season.
- [60:13]
Michael Pina
So I would like to quickly reaffirm my preseason prediction that the Indiana Pacers will win the lottery. Just getting it on the record on this podcast as well, because that's definitely going to happen.
- [60:25]
Howard Beck
It'd be incredible. All right, we'll do these real quick. You already wrote a piece on the Ringer.com this week with some quarter season awards. We don't need to go through all of them. Let's just hit two. Your coach of the first quarter season, the quarter poll coach of the quarter poll.
- [60:43]
Michael Pina
Mine was Eric Spoelstra and this was pretty easy for me. Yeah, we, we, we covered a lot of the reason why. You know, a lot of people talk about the offense and how it was completely rearranged and he adopted, he saw what Memphis was doing last year and adopted it. Brought in Noah Laroche as a consultant and it's just worked like gangbusters. They've just gone from not that fast to by far the fastest team. And it's enabled, you know, just about everyone on the roster to be the best version of themselves. Like Jaime Hakas is incredible this year after a horrific sophomore slump. So just being able to create an environment that has all these players buying in after the way last season ended, I think is really, that takes leadership and beyond X's and O's, I think that Eric Spoelstra is just like a really great motivator and people want to play hard for him. But yeah, in addition to the offense that everyone talks about, like what are they second or third in defensive rating right now? Are very good on the defensive end. And bam. Adebayo has a case for defensive player of the year yet again. So I can't say enough about SPO Never won the award, which is kind of a crime. I think that this year I hope he wins it.
- [62:09]
Howard Beck
Fourth in defense, but, but like by a tick, 111.2 to Houston's 111.1. So yeah, they're right there in defensive rating. As one of the elite defensive teams, SPO is a great pick. There's always like six to seven guys for coach of the year, I think, I think Spo, I think Darker Yakovic, G.B. bickerstaff, again a candidate. I think he finished second to Kenny Atkinson last season. J.J. redick deserves some love. Ime Odoka Mitch Johnson in San Antonio. They're still just like you know, chugging along without, without Wemby this whole time. But I went with Jordan Ott for all the reasons you elucidated earlier in the pod. This is this, this team was in some sort some semblance of a tear down with only really Devin Booker to rely on seemingly. Jalen Green has barely played and he was supposed to be. I don't know what he was supposed to be, but he was, he was the theoretically the key piece of the return. It turns out it was Dylan Brooks in the return for Kevin Durant. They're 13th in offensive efficiency, 13th in defensive efficiency. Just like just super solid. I don't know that they're going to chart out at the end of the season. I don't think they're going to be quite in the thick of things, but they've already made us all take notice and Jordan Ott as a again as a rookie head coach to come in and it's effectively changed the culture. Overused word but and just change the change style, culture, attitude, everything seemingly overnight. Incredible stuff. Your MVP through 20 games. This is like this. This could be an epic race. Despite the fact that I think everybody that we haven't seen the first Tim Bontemps has not hit us up yet for his first straw poll. That's coming any second now. But who's your I do think it's gonna be a great race. Who's your MVP through 20 games?
- [64:00]
Michael Pina
My MVP was Nikola Jokic. He leads the league in rebounds, assists per. He's sixth in points per game. He is second in true shooting behind AJ Green like which he's second in true shooting with like touching the ball more than any other player. I think he's just the best player in the world. He keeps getting better. The on off splits are still amazing. His team would have home court advantage in the Western Conference if the season ended today and he's not had two starters for a few weeks now with Christian Brown and Aaron Gordon both being out and I know they've dropped some games to some bad teams lately with those two out but I mean he's just so dominant in his minutes and.
- [64:48]
Howard Beck
Yeah he's the MVP for me he almost certainly is. And if I had to vote right now and again I don't know when that poll question is coming via text from our buddy Bond temps, but I'll probably go Jokic but I'll make the case for SGA just For the sake of it right now, the numbers are astounding. And he's not even again, he's not even playing a lot of fourth quarters. Their, their record is insane. And they didn't even have Jalen Williams for the first six weeks of the season. Isaiah Hartenstein's been out. Chet Holmgren was in and out. Every, everybody that they plug in, the A.J. mitchells, whoever thrives. And it's, you know, that all still starts with Shay, Gil, just Alexander. I think in the end this season, like we'll, you know, obviously, look, there's a lot of games to be played and numbers will change and everything else, and these teams will go through it. But I. If they're chasing 70 in April, forget the 73, forget the record. But if they're in the high 60s to 70, and depending on what the gap is between the, the Thunder and Nuggets, that could be definitive again. And I think for a lot of us, myself included, it was, you know, at least one piece of the puzzle in determining MVP ballots last spring was that they had the Thunder just lapped the field and they were whatever, like 17 wins or whatever it was between them and the Nuggets. I'm just throwing out a number. Don't hold me to it. I don't remember what it was. It was a massive gap, a much more massive gap than we would normally see between two MVP candidates. And so if the Thunder keep up this rate and Shay keeps this up, his case will again be very, very strong come April. All right, producer Cliff. Hope your Thanksgiving was wonderful, my friend. Hope you got a lot of great mailbag questions for Thanksgiving. That sounds like the worst Thanksgiving gift ever. People don't give gifts on Thanksgiving, so it's okay. But I hope our mailbag is as stuffed as everyone's Thanksgiving turkey.
- [66:50]
Producer Cliff
The mailbag.
- [66:51]
Howard Beck
There's. There's the single worst intro to the mailbag we've ever had in this podcast.
- [66:55]
Producer Cliff
The mailbag is as stuffed as Michael Pena's kids Christmas bag. Gifts that are coming up here.
- [67:00]
Howard Beck
There we go.
- [67:03]
Producer Cliff
Let's get to the first one here. We talked about this earlier here with the Clippers. And this is from Brian Toperic. What up, Beck and Pena. Of course the Clippers can't pull out this early situation. Season tailspin. Should they blow it up? Sorry? Should they blow their core up? Even though they have no control over their next four first round picks, Is it worth treating those as sunk costs to recoup something for hardening and their other vets before potentially losing them for Nothing. That is a question from Brian Toparik. I hope I'm saying that right.
- [67:32]
Howard Beck
Brian Toper to, I think to pork maybe and shout out to Brian who's does. Does great work, bunch of places, Bleach Report, Liberty Ballers, Forbes, lots of stuff. And a great follow on Blue sky as well. Great question from Brian Pino. What do you think?
- [67:52]
Michael Pina
Yes, I do think that they should explore making significant changes to the roster. The case against is, hey, we'll ride this thing out. Who knows? We'll get into the play in, you know, if Kawhi is healthy, he's still amazing. If Harden's healthy, he's amazing right now and no one will want to see us. And you know, next year we'll have all this cap space and we'll just kind of reconfigure the roster around Kawhi and we'll avoid the embarrassment of giving the Oklahoma City Thunder a top five pick and the ire of 28 other teams, which would definitely happen. But no, I just think you should like, screw that. Don't fall victim to sunk cost fallacy. You should absolutely try to get as many picks as you can. Try to set up your future for success by making moves now that may intentionally push you back instead of forward. So the rumors that they're Interested in acquiring DeMar DeRozan or pick your star pseudo star make absolutely no sense to me. And I think that those should absolutely be couched, rather than that they should explore the Kawhi Leonard trade market, see what they can get for him. That's what I would do.
- [69:17]
Howard Beck
It's just absolutely stunning to look at Tankathon right now and see the Clippers slotted at fifth with that big orange and white arrow pointing to okc that if the season ended today, the Thunder would have the fifth best odds to win the lottery. Or not technically, not the fifth best odds, but they'd be slotted fifth in the lottery order. It's incredible. The Thunder would also have the 9th pick courtesy of Utah and the 14th pick courtesy of the Sixers. Oh my God, I almost want it to happen. I. I root for chaos. I know the rest of the league now is cursing my name for even saying that. It would just be insane. But you know what? The Thunder earned us. They were smart. They outwitted y'. All. Sorry. I think that I, I agree with you. Like, you can't. The, the pick is gone. You. You can't get it back. And the Thunder are going to be the beneficiaries wherever it falls. And does it look even worse if it ends up top three? Top one? Yeah, but you're. You're screwed anyway. And you are all, you've already set yourself up as the team based on the norm Powell trade that is shooting for 2027, that you, these next two years were just placeholders anyway. You obviously, you wanted to stay competitive, but you weren't exactly all in for the moment anyway. So part of this is. Is just that plan coming back to, to haunt you because you, you, you could have kept Norm Powell. You could have tried adding players who were, you know, you know, younger and not on this timeline of 2027 cap room, but you just, you chose not to. You chose to sacrifice the present for the future on some level. I also think that if you trade Kawhi, if you traded Harden, if you traded Zubacc, whoever it may be, not saying all of them, you're probably not dealing all of them, you might actually end up better in the process. Pina like, it's not necessarily a concession, especially when you're trading a guy if it's the, the Kawhi example who you don't even know how many games you're going to have him around for anyway. Depending on how one or more trades go for them and what you're getting back, the chemistry might get better, the balance of the offense might get better. You might pick up, you know, a better, you know, fifth starter along the way. Who knows what it is. It's not necessarily a concession or a decision to say, you know, we're not caring about the pick. We just are trying to offload and see if we can get back pieces for the future. You might actually end up better in the process. So, yeah, I think everything should be on the table for the Clippers. I wouldn't rule out any moves at all.
- [71:47]
Producer Cliff
There we go. Next question is from Andrew Shields. Has anyone else noticed that Achilles ruptures in the NBA seem to almost exclusively affect the non European players? If so, what can be gleaned from that? Is it part of the whole America? AAU never stops drills and lifting culture. Andrew Shields.
- [72:08]
Howard Beck
I had not actually considered the nationality of the ruptured Achilles across the board until now. Pino, what do you think?
- [72:18]
Michael Pina
This is something that I have never considered. I wish I had like a database in front of me with every torn Achilles in the last 20 years and where that player was born, but I don't. I can't think of anyone who, off the top of my head who ruptured their Achilles, who is not born from the United States. But I think there may be something to this theory for sure. I mean, I, I'm not too well versed in the, the developmental process in Europe. I know that they start very young. I know that it's not exactly like AAU where you're playing so many different games in a weekend and packing all these minutes onto young underdeveloped bodies. But yeah, it could be, I suppose, or, or you know, could be like freak stuff. I, I, I'm not a doctor, Howard. I'm not a doctor. So that's that. This is my, these are my, these are my thoughts on this. But I, I don't, I don't have any confirmed, any way to confirm my, my opinion here.
- [73:40]
Howard Beck
Also not a doctor, also not a, a trainer or have any medical degrees or even fake ones that I can cite. I, I think the fact that it's, it's Lillard Tatum and Halliburton as the three most recent examples. And then we had dejante Murray and we had, you know, you know, going a little bit further back, Kevin Durant, DeMarcus Cousins, Kobe Bryant, like they have, it seems like it's been all Americans but like, you know, up until recently, you know, the league has been overwhelmingly American born players. It's still about 70, 75%, maybe even 80% American born players. So part of it's just a numbers game probably. But listen, I will, I'm going to cite Baxter Holmes's story so many times that he should pay me royalties at this point. But Baxter Holmes did a piece, I think it was a two part series actually about six years ago about the workload that American born basketball players have in youth leagues and primarily aau, and that by the time they get to the NBA, they're already in jeopardy of having these soft tissue injuries and you know, knee blowouts and Achilles blowouts and everything else. There was a really well reported and researched story. It was as true, is as true now as it was then. And the league has been grappling with this and you know, I think it's still the best explanation for why in an era of load management and teams being really careful, you know, much more conservative, having all these sports science staffs, analytics staffs, all the, all the training, all the modern advances, we still have these kinds of injuries and, and it's, it's, it's. Once you've eliminated everything else, it kind of goes back to I think this obvious premise that players just are coming in with their bodies older, already vulnerable. But neither Michael, Pete and I nor I are doctors and are uncomfortable.
- [75:33]
Michael Pina
Although I will say that the season should be shorter and that is actually what we should be talking about related to this discussion.
- [75:39]
Howard Beck
Agreed on that one too. And as we know that that is a. Is an impossible one for the NBA to ever tackle because neither the owners nor the players ever want to give up the money. Maybe someday they'll reckon with that, but I don't think it's coming anytime soon. Anything else left in our mailbag?
- [75:57]
Producer Cliff
I'm gonna throw you a curveball in this one, Howard. I did not send you this one. So this is from about a week ago from CJ Sosito. Now to my actual topic. Rather than pondering about trade destinations for Giannis or how shit the Pelicans and Kings or finding new ways to rage, bait Roger with Rust talk, I have a fun exercise. Considering how well received last year's NBA Finals were, given that they primarily featured two small market teams, what would be the absolute funniest finals matchup we can get in 2026? I'm talking wolves, Raptors, levels of absurdity. Who do you. Who do you guys pick, how many games played, who balls out, et cetera. Thanks for being some real ones and I hope you guys have a Happy Thanksgiving. And obviously that was pre Thanksgiving, huh?
- [76:37]
Howard Beck
So the question is the most hilarious Finals matchup.
- [76:40]
Producer Cliff
Yep. Yep.
- [76:41]
Howard Beck
I guess it needs to at least be plausible, peanut. Like, it's obviously not, you know, Wizards, Pelicans, although that would be truly hilarious. What is the most plausible yet hilarious finals matchup?
- [76:58]
Michael Pina
Huh? This is a good one.
- [77:00]
Howard Beck
Is it Timberwolves, Knicks for the Cat Randall Battle?
- [77:05]
Michael Pina
Like, is it Nick's Knicks can't be involved in this. That's.
- [77:08]
Howard Beck
That's, that's. That's not hilarious enough?
- [77:11]
Michael Pina
No, that's like. It's, that's. We're talking market size is factored into this answer now.
- [77:18]
Howard Beck
Sure, yeah, it was factored into his, his premise in his email too. I was just thinking like, you know, can we, can we get the, the referendum on some deal that. That one is still prominent, but you're. You're right. Knicks are too big for this.
- [77:34]
Michael Pina
What about Orlando and San Antonio?
- [77:43]
Howard Beck
All right, hilarious, because.
- [77:47]
Michael Pina
I don't find any, any of these matchups hilarious.
- [77:52]
Howard Beck
I mean, it's that. That satisfies the small market part of, of the question, I guess.
- [77:57]
Michael Pina
Yeah, I mean, they're just like. I think it would be fun for basketball fans. I think that, You know, you'd have some young star power. You'd have. I would look smart Because I thought that the Orlando Magic would go to the Finals. You get Victor Wembanyama on a stage like that would be terrific. It's like there's no. How many teams out the west can you even pick to actually go to the NBA Finals? Besides the obvious ones? It's kind of difficult, but yeah, Toronto or Orlando or Atlanta or. I don't know. I'm trying to think of, like, who else is realistic out of the Eastern Conference. That would be fun.
- [78:41]
Howard Beck
Detroit. Detroit. I mean, Detroit would just be fun to see. Cliff, the question was restated.
- [78:52]
Producer Cliff
All right, so the question was. Hang on, let me bring it. Right?
- [78:55]
Howard Beck
Yeah, just the actual question part of it, not the run up.
- [78:59]
Producer Cliff
I got you. So the question was, I have a fun exercise. Considering how well last year's finals were, given that they were primarily featured two small market teams, what will be the absolute funniest finals matchup we can get in 2026? I'm talking wolves versus raptors levels of absurdity. Who do you guys pick, how many games played, who balls out, etc.
- [79:20]
Howard Beck
Yeah, so the. He did like absurdity and funny were like, in there. So, I mean, the Raptors are an absurd finals team, given where we began. So, like, that's, that's, that's a. It almost has to be like Rapid Raptor sons at this point just to continue the trend of the shit we didn't see coming and that we don't see actually enduring. But that's objectively funny.
- [79:51]
Michael Pina
What about Portland?
- [79:54]
Howard Beck
I think they might be a little too far out of the.
- [79:58]
Michael Pina
Yeah, Portland got you chuckling now. So I might be onto something here.
- [80:03]
Howard Beck
You might be onto something. All right. There is nowhere else to go with this question or with this podcast at this stage. So thank you, Michael Pina, for joining us and filling in today. Shout out to Logan and Raja. Raja, hope you're feeling better soon. You'll see those guys back. Logan and Raja, I believe, on Friday. And I will be back with y' all next week. Thanks for joining us. Must be 21 years and older and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with the Kansas Star casino who are 18 and older and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or visit rghelp.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org backslash chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.com in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 1-800-327-505. 0 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.