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The Ringer NBA Show
Rasheed Wallace on Detroit Basketball Revival and Jokic’s Impact. Plus, NCAA Women’s Tourney With Seerat Sohi
01:43:25
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- [00:00]
J. Kyle Mann
Folks, it's J. Kyle Mann from the Ringer. And as always, basketball is so freaking, freaking good. It's so good, in fact, that the Ringers NBA Draft show is finally back just in time for a ramp up to June. We've got you covered every week as we take an in depth look at who's got Next for the NBA's future. We'll talk the rising and falling stocks of the best and the brightest prospects in the 2025 NBA draft class. From Cooper Flag to Dylan Harper to BJ Edgecomb and more. Tap in with me on the Ringer NBA Draft show every Wednesday and make sure that you follow, subscribe and hit us with those five star ratings.
- [00:39]
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- [01:44]
J. Kyle Mann
What's poppin? Real ones. Logan Murdoch here. Roger Bell there. Philly bowl, Cliff on the boards. Victoria on the video. We got a special guest in the building. Rasheed Wallace.
- [01:59]
Rasheed Wallace
Yes.
- [01:59]
J. Kyle Mann
I told him real quick off the top though, I was going to talk about his Chiefs because you know my Raiders are going to go 8, 9 this year and that's damn near a championship. That's just like, you know, we beat y'all on Christmas day last year and we about to go 8, 9 this year. That's like, you feel me? That's like the equivalent of a championship or two. It's a banner worthy for the Raiders right now. So you know I'm about to talk my so the Chiefs. Hey, she. How you doing, buddy? What's going on? How you doing, man? Missed you, man.
- [02:27]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah, you know my boy's gonna be back in it. You know, the Eagles played. Eagles played a good game. Pigeons got us. But like I tell everybody in Philly, you know they like, oh, man. Yeah, we beat y'all ass, this and that. Yeah, y'all won, but y'all ain't do nothing but just tie it up. And then it took y'all four years to get back there, so.
- [02:45]
J. Kyle Mann
Hold on, hold on. You know, hold on. We have a Philly boy on the. On the call right now. And, Cliff, as you know, we usually don't do this till the end, but before we get to, like, the shits. Cliff, do you have something to say about this? This Chiefs Eagles conundrum that. That is happening right now? She.
- [03:02]
Logan Murdoch
Man, how you from the city, bro? And you not repping the Eagles, number one, that's crazy work. Number two, it was belt to ass during this Super Bowl. So now you want to talk about something? We evened it up, bro. They ran down on your boy Mahomes belt. The ass went down, the orange, got spanked up. You know what I mean? And now you talking about some. We evening it up, bro. We gonna run it back next year.
- [03:21]
Rasheed Wallace
Well, well, all right, let's stop right there. First of all. Yeah, y'all. Y'all did. Y'all didn't put belt to ass. It was foot to ass.
- [03:28]
Roger Bell
All right?
- [03:28]
Rasheed Wallace
Number one, number two, y'all not gonna make it there this year. Y'all don't have. Y'all don't. Y'all don't have that same team. And. And now y'all schedule's a little bit harder than it was last year. Y'all ain't gonna have no cakewalk through the playoffs this year. Y'all. You know, y'all looked up at the Lions lost. Cause that. That should have been the NFC championship with y'all and the Lions. Come on.
- [03:49]
Logan Murdoch
Yo, stop. Hey, you know what we got, though? We got Saquon Barkley, though. Who's stopping that?
- [03:53]
Rasheed Wallace
That don't mean nothing.
- [03:55]
J. Kyle Mann
We.
- [03:55]
Rasheed Wallace
We stopped that shit in the bowl.
- [03:58]
Logan Murdoch
Who's stopping Cooper DeJean from getting that pick? Six, y'all. Hey, they was running down on y'all, though. Pat Mahomes was running for his life in the bowl, bro.
- [04:06]
Rasheed Wallace
All could have one position. We ain't have a left tackle. But we already, you know, we. We advise that we got a left tackle now, you know what I'm saying, out of the free agency, so. Hey, I'm good. And with nine times out of 10, what they saying is, is we're going to draft the left tackle. I'm good. That's all I need.
- [04:24]
J. Kyle Mann
Okay.
- [04:24]
Rasheed Wallace
That's all I need.
- [04:25]
Logan Murdoch
All right, so we gonna see y'all on the bowl next year. We gonna run it back.
- [04:28]
Rasheed Wallace
No, y'all not going. Y'all not going.
- [04:30]
Logan Murdoch
We going.
- [04:31]
Rasheed Wallace
Y'all not going.
- [04:32]
Logan Murdoch
We a thousand percent going.
- [04:34]
Rasheed Wallace
You crazy as hell.
- [04:35]
Roger Bell
See.
- [04:35]
Rasheed Wallace
Hey, yo, y'all need to start doing drug testing for this show or something, man. This cat bumped his head or something. He's concussed back there some. You know, he's man talking that they going back next year.
- [04:48]
J. Kyle Mann
Hey, it's cool. Because all I. All I know is it's gonna be one and one in the writers Chiefs season series this year. I'm putting that out there anyways.
- [04:57]
Rasheed Wallace
Nobody takes that matchup serious.
- [04:59]
J. Kyle Mann
Anyway, that's why we got our Christmas present in 2023, sir. I've never seen someone in the islands this Mad Roger Bell live from the Cayman Islands with his, with his bird shirt. He just cursed out three of his kids.
- [05:13]
Roger Bell
No, no, no, that's not personal. That's. That's lovingly parenting, bro. I told you once, I can't be telling you three times, bro. If I set the precedent at home, how are they going to succeed when they get out in the real world? You know what I mean? She's like, hey, if I'm asking you to do three times, we got a problem.
- [05:30]
Rasheed Wallace
We got a problem.
- [05:31]
J. Kyle Mann
All right, let's get to the shits, man. We have a. What they call a custom segment, branded segment here. So let me do the branded intro. Welcome to Keep It Simple, a little segment about how simple things are. Good things brought to you by patron Tequila. No sweeteners, no extracts, no artificial coloring, no secrets, just 100% additive free tequila. And in our Keeping It a Simple segment, Raj is impressed. We're going to talk about a team near and dear to Sheed's heart. The Detroit Pistons, who have taken everybody by storm. You, we. Last time we had you on the pod sheet, you had some words for your Pistons. You were. You're quite disappointed. Granted, they were terrible last time you were on what have you thought about the Pistons and how far can they go? They're five seed right now.
- [06:24]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah, they're. They're five seed. They're doing. They're playing well. JB got them. Them balling right now. I ain't even gonna hold you real talk. But I don't know, man. I mean it's, it's. I don't know to whether to believe it or is it just the situation because it ain't like the east is really stacked. You know what I'm saying? It's. Well, we got two Good teams. In the east, it's Boston and, and Milwaukee. So it's like everybody else who make the playoffs is, it's fun, it's, it's fair game. So I'm like, all right. But them cats, man, they, they're playing good. Cade's playing well. Jay Doran's playing well. He's, he's. I think he's top five in the league with double doubles or something like that. But no, the guys are playing well. JB's got them, got that, that foot to the gas and they moving.
- [07:12]
J. Kyle Mann
At what point do you, for a team like this, like, what are your expectations going into a postseason of this magnitude? Right. Are you playing with house money? Are you just like, how. What are you trying to figure out at this point of a trajectory for a team like this?
- [07:30]
Rasheed Wallace
Well, with them making the playoffs and they actually have a good team to where, depending on who they match up with, they might be able to, you know, get that, that first playoff win or two. And I think for that team that'll be huge because for them and the non success that they've had, you know, over the years, we're falling short of the playoffs or. It's not even a question they gonna make the playoffs and this and that. So now it's, it's. I would kind of sort of say, yeah, they, they kind of sort of playing with house money. You know, nobody's expecting them to win. Nobody's expecting them to do what they've been doing, but I think, I think they're going to surprise somebody. You know, they're going to get a couple wins depending on, like I said, depending on who they match up against in that first round.
- [08:14]
J. Kyle Mann
Roger, they have the, the Pacers at the right now, if the postseason started today. We talked with, with Ben a couple years, a couple of weeks ago about them potentially playing against the Knicks in the matchup of, you know, the matchup there and how that would be advantageous for the Pistons. How do you feel them stacking up against the Pacers going into the postseason if it were to end the day? Like, what do you, what do you think about how. What they can do?
- [08:42]
Rasheed Wallace
I think that'll be a good matchup. That'll be a pretty good series right there. You know, you got Halliburton. Halliburton's good. And you know, that'll be a good matchup with him and Cade, you know, you got Miles Turner. He's a solid big man down there for Indy. You know, he does what he's supposed to do get them double doubles. That'll be a good matchup with him and Jay Doran. I think overall, I really. I really would have to favor just a little bit. The needle was pointing just a little bit towards Indiana with that series because, you know, they've been there. You know, they've been in the playoffs, and the Pistons are trying to get to where they want. Even though, you know, Indiana didn't get too far, but they still got farther than the Pistons and that's what they're trying to do.
- [09:21]
Roger Bell
Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think that the, you know, I think style, you know the old saying that styles make fights also, I think it's a Pacers like this going to be a. A game that's going to be dictated on who could control the tempo of that, like, who gets who playing in their wheelhouse in terms of tempo for more of the games in the series. I think that's going to be a big factor in that. But I would lean towards Indiana, too, just because of what she said. Like, they got a little bit more experience, a couple more cats that have been through those battles. But don't get it twisted like Detroit. Going back to the original question that you asked, she, like playing with house money is a real freeing thing. Like, you can really get out there in a way that there's no pressure. And we talk about playoff. She, you know, from game to game, the pendulum of pressure swings, like, dramatically. You could feel like you're out of this, you're about to go on vacation. You get one win, and now you feel like you could win a championship. Like, they're not going to be dealing with those swings of emotion because they're just, you know, kind of free and happy to be there. So they could be very dangerous. But I would lean towards the Pacers.
- [10:19]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah, I feel you.
- [10:21]
J. Kyle Mann
What. What do we want to see? I'll start with rising on this and go to she. What do we want to see from Cade in this postseason, at least for his. Just for the first few games, what do you want to see from him? And what would solicit good growth from him in. In your eyes?
- [10:35]
Roger Bell
I just think consistency for him. If you hop out into the playoffs this year and you are looking, you know, like yourself from the regular season, it would be at a perfect world. He takes it up a notch.
- [10:46]
Rasheed Wallace
Right.
- [10:47]
Roger Bell
Like the true greats take it up a level in the playoffs. But even if you don't and you were to just not have a precipitous drop in play, I Think you're cooking, right? Because now you've got a cat that's taken one step throughout the regular season. Boom. Step two is taking that same production level. And when teams can really scout for you and dig in on what you're doing, it's not affecting your.
- [11:06]
Rasheed Wallace
Your.
- [11:06]
Roger Bell
Your efficiency. Your efficiency or your effectiveness. If he can do that, you know, maybe. Maybe squeeze a game or two out that they.
- [11:13]
Rasheed Wallace
That.
- [11:14]
Roger Bell
That they weren't supposed to win, and he's the reason they do down the stretch. I mean, that's pie in the sky. But I would honestly say just coming out and being as consistent in the postseason as he's been in the regular season, that would be a great step in growth for him in the franchise.
- [11:28]
J. Kyle Mann
What was your first. She. What was your first postseason series like? You played against the Lakers in 97. Like, what was. What was that like for. For you getting used to a different game, Is it.
- [11:40]
Rasheed Wallace
It's exactly how you see it on tv. So, you know, being a fan of the NBA when I was growing up and, you know, the Sixers and all of that stuff, watching playoff games, you see the atmosphere, like, watching on tv, like, oh, it's. It's just. The atmosphere is just thicker. Each shot means more. And, man, when I got to the playoffs for that first time in. In 97, when I was with the Blazers, yo, I. I felt that. I seen it. You know, it's. It's like once you there, you like, damn. It's a little bit different today. Like. Like, Cats ain't joking around as much. You know, everybody more. More focused in with the team meetings and, you know, in the layup line and all that. So I'm like, all right, this is what it is. And then when that. When that ball go up, it's totally different. You know, you. You sit there and you think, like, all right, I just gotta make sure that I do what I'm supposed to do. So in terms of that, yo, you can't turn the ball over. It's less turnovers in the playoffs. It's less dumbass shots in the playoffs. And of course, I didn't figure all of this out until that. Probably that second time in the playoffs, you know, that. That year after that second year, I made the playoffs. So once I knew that, and then, you know, listening to my guy, Uncle Cliffy, Cliff Robinson, it's like, all right. And I seen. I just seen it with him, you know, watching him play when they played the Bulls in the championship. And then I'm in the locker room with him now. Like, I could see that playoff experience. I could see that, that playoff difference. Regular season over. That's why they always say regular season over playoff is 0. 0.
- [13:18]
Roger Bell
I just add to that. Like, like she'd always say, as crazy as it sounds like when you hit that playoff, you hit the playoff, you get off the bus. I mean, you could smell the popcorn popping. Like all the heights get like all of the senses get heightened a little bit, bro. Like you just feel it in that way. It's a weird, it's a weird kind of dynamic, man. And you're right. The belts get tightened, right? Like we don't have as many loose possessions. We don't have that random, you know, heat check. I need that bucket. Cause we're operating in the margins, you know, in a lot of these series when it's coming down to, you know, a couple field goal points or an extra three made here and there and stuff like that. And it is a. For people who, for people who don't like, lock in all the time, there's a real adjustment period. But for dudes who usually are pretty locked in and detail oriented, they usually have pretty much the same level of success. Now it takes different, a different mindset to like turn it up in the playoffs. But like good pros usually are fine going into the playoffs. Cats to get a little kind of, you know, up and down with their habits. Like they could have a little drop off in the playoffs because to your point, like this is assignment based basketball, bro. Like, yep, it's because it's such a chess match of, of of strategy. Like we can't have somebody out there blowing this assignment five times Tonight. My boy like you, we'll give you one and if you can't get it right, we got to go to the next cat. We don't have the time for.
- [14:42]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, yeah, everything. You was like fish out of water going into the postseason though, right? Like it was. That's. So you needed that mindset more than anything, right? Because you were just 10 day and then going right into the postseason with the Sixes.
- [14:56]
Roger Bell
The best thing that ever happened to me was like I didn't have a full season to, to like to really develop any kind of habits. So the only thing I knew was post season off the rip. So like I, I attribute that to why I was always better in the, in the postseason for the most part. Like, because I ain't really. That was my only introductory to NBA basketball was like this heightened sense of awareness at all. Eyes on AI and blue and dikembe and like, you know, I was first row to that for three rounds of basketball before they even threw me in the game. And I just cut my teeth. I cut my teeth doing that. So, like, that's kind of what I knew, you know.
- [15:34]
J. Kyle Mann
Rasheed, like, what is your relationship with the Pistons now? Like, I know you've played for a number of teams, but the Pistons and the Blazers tend to stick out, at least for me, when I see your career. But, like, how do you. How did. Are you extended fan? Like, where. Where do the Pistons rank on, like, the teams that you played for? I know you want to chip with them, obviously, but, like, what is your relationship with them?
- [15:57]
Rasheed Wallace
Well, with the guys from that team, we still talk. You know, we've been involved in group chats and all that since probably 0405. So them group chats are still going with that, you know, the same guys from that team. As far as now, it's not. It's not too good now. I like. I like the players. You know, a lot of those kids are my guys from Nike camp or just from other little basketball camps. So I support the actual players, but I got. I just got beef myself with. With front office, and it's. I don't know, for me, I don't know what can be made positive out of it, so. But then again, it's not my job to figure that out.
- [16:42]
J. Kyle Mann
Neither do you.
- [16:44]
Roger Bell
Hey, do you feel like she. You have a tighter bond with those cats that you won championships with, or. Or do you have a tight bond with. With just, you know, the same. The same level of bond with cats on the Trailblazers and other. In other situations? Or do you feel like those championship runs bonded you guys in a way that other teams couldn't really do that?
- [17:05]
Rasheed Wallace
Oh, yeah, definitely. It gave us that. That lifelong bond when we did win it. But, you know, I've always had good teammates throughout my career. You know, I'm blessed and thankful for that. I never got into no beef with any of my teammates, you know, no locker room fights or none of that. Yeah. So I was blessed for that. But I played with a great, great handful of guys, you know, on both teams, the Pistons, with the Blazers, even in Boston, you know, for that. For that one year I was there playing with a great group of guys, and, you know, you develop that. That friendship, you know, to this day. Yeah, I still talk with Ta. I still talk with E. House, Eddie House, you know, I still talk with Kev, you know, and so Big baby. And those relationships would never go away, you know, because for that, what, eight months, you know, we were, we were brothers. Eight, nine months we were brothers and it was all out there on that court. We had to be in unison in order for us to get some victory. So, I mean, I've always been blessed to have good teammates. So that's one thing I can't say positive about my career in the league.
- [18:11]
J. Kyle Mann
Well, you brought up like the bond that you have with the Celtics, which is really interesting because again, it was a very quick time. Right. And you also play with other teams for quick stretches. I mean, infamously, the Hawks played also with the, with the Knicks as well for I believe, a season. But like, what is the difference between like having the relationship that you would have with Boston? Like, what is the team dynamic to where you can get close to a group like that for eight months as opposed to another team, like maybe the Knicks or another team that you kind of just pass through and it, maybe it wasn't as tight. How did, why do you think Boston was a reason was. Was such a tight knit group for you, even though it was just a short stretch?
- [18:54]
Rasheed Wallace
Well, truthfully, I think Boston and New York were. We were tight knit groups and I, and I, I'm going to go ahead and dedicate that to veterans. You know, on that Boston team, it was a lot of veterans, you know, myself, kg, Paul Ray, Eddie House was the vet, you know, ta. And then it also equates over on that court because it's like, all right with me being a little older, I know I'm not as fast, so I'm like, I'm gonna let young boy go ahead and run that rebound down or something like that. And the same thing with the Knicks. You know, we had a veteran team up there as well. You know, myself J. Kid Mellow, Kurt Thomas, Marcus Camby, Kenyon, you know, we had a, we had a nice little squad.
- [19:40]
Roger Bell
Those wasn't vets, bro. Y'all were those you. That's a old head squad there.
- [19:47]
J. Kyle Mann
That's old heads, not real talk.
- [19:50]
Roger Bell
That's an old head squad. I like that.
- [19:52]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah, for real. And like that was up until I think a couple years ago when the Knicks got Jay Brunson. That was the first time that they beat more games than we did. You know, I think that year we either won 53 or 55 games with that team.
- [20:07]
J. Kyle Mann
Knicks tape. Knicks tape.
- [20:09]
Rasheed Wallace
That Knicks tape.
- [20:10]
Roger Bell
I always felt like the teams that you had, you know, the best. Bonds and she just talked about vets. I felt like the reason amongst a lot of reasons why vets are so important, you know, like, teaching people the ropes and. And just, you know, helping people indoctrinate themselves into what being a pro is. And all the reasons that vets are good, they. They have a level of communication that's been. That's been worked on so that they can organize and get. And get things going. You know what I mean? Like, I found when I was with the Sixers and I had, you know, Blue and Kembe and we had George lynch and.
- [20:49]
J. Kyle Mann
And.
- [20:49]
Roger Bell
And even when I got to Dallas with, like, Mike Finn and Nick Van Exelling Wiz, like, all of those dudes were able to, like, bring you along with them, you know, take. Take you out to dinner, you know, as a young cat, like, without a lot of experience in these cities and stuff like that, you can kind of get lost. You're left to your own devices. You're just trying to figure out what's going on. Those older heads bring you along with them. Show you. Show you where we're supposed to be. Hey, don't be over there. You don't want to be there. Like, come rock with us. We'll go to dinner, have a couple glasses of wine. Like those type of things on teams that vets do and communicate. The kind of messaging of where we're going to be tonight as a group and how we're going to act and how we're going to move, that becomes really important to the bonding and the chemistry of the team, you know, and.
- [21:34]
Rasheed Wallace
They help, like, in playoffs and big games, you know, and the vets make it easier for the younger players. You know, I've seen a lot of things that the vets did when I was younger that I did when I became a vet, you know, like, so let's say you. You up. Your rookie contract is up, right? And so this is a big year for you. So, like, all right, when I'm out there, if you out there with me, it's like, all right, I'm gonna go ahead. The play might be for me, but I'm gonna go ahead and kick that to you, you know, for the jump shot. You know, just try to boost your numbers up so you can get some bread. And then it's also vice versa, you know, when you're that young guy and you've been in the league for a couple years and, you know, like, all right, my vet, he up for, you know, that new bread, so I gotta make sure he get this new bread. And it's the same thing, you know, you feed the vet and you Try to do all the things that you can do to help them get that money. Because at the end of the day, no matter who getting paid, but we all got to get this win. So we all got to be on the same page for that.
- [22:34]
J. Kyle Mann
And that was keep it simple brought to you by Patron. When it comes to ingredients, Patron stays true to tradition. No additives, just craftsmanship. That's why their tequila is crafted with 100% Weber Blue Agave water and time. Visit patron tequila.com to learn more. The perfect way to enjoy Patron is responsibly Copyright 2025, imported by the Patron Spirits Company Cohoro Gables, Florida Tequila 40% alcohol by volume. Get Raja a bottle of tequila.
- [23:01]
Roger Bell
All of that in cliff. All of it.
- [23:03]
J. Kyle Mann
That's terrible. That's fine. It's fine. It's been a long time.
- [23:08]
Roger Bell
Coral Glabels.
- [23:12]
J. Kyle Mann
Coral Gables, Florida hey, man, you know what? You. How about that? You know, it's early in the morning. Ain't nobody out here in paradise.
- [23:23]
Roger Bell
Let me just say this. I'm sure none of y'all care, but like, this is not all. This is not easy. This ain't all fun and games, bro. It's been a long time since I was day drinking for four. Four days in a row, bro, that is kicking my ass. I tried the NCAA games last night. I was, I was, I woke up and every all eyes are on me, knocked out on the couch, 9:00. Bro, this day drinking ain't no. Ain't no punk.
- [23:50]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, man, you age 20 years old at all star weekend anymore, bro. It's not the same.
- [23:55]
Rasheed Wallace
Hey, that's why I stopped drinking. Like, only thing I drink now is I drink beer and sake. I can't drink liquor no more. Just, just for that same reason you said, Raj. It's like you wake up your body hurting all that. I'm like, like, you play the game where the idea. Pass me the ice bucket.
- [24:13]
J. Kyle Mann
Like, wait, you just had three shots.
- [24:17]
Roger Bell
But yo, not for nothing, like I when I was younger, because we've been here on vacation before, the sun did not affect me the way it does now. Like, being in the ocean, all of that shit just stops a 49 year old body in a way that it did not. So like, I'm doing this for y'all. I'm thugging through this.
- [24:35]
J. Kyle Mann
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- [26:22]
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- [27:47]
J. Kyle Mann
Okay, we have breaking news, guys. Breaking news. The Memphis Grizzlies announced they have parted ways with head coach Taylor Jenkins right before the playoffs.
- [27:57]
Rasheed Wallace
Damn.
- [27:59]
J. Kyle Mann
Yes.
- [28:01]
Rasheed Wallace
Y'all couldn't hold wait off a couple more months? That's what I'm saying.
- [28:07]
J. Kyle Mann
That's pretty big.
- [28:08]
Rasheed Wallace
That's pretty.
- [28:09]
J. Kyle Mann
On the postseason. Yeah. Let's process this together. Let's process this together. The Grizzlies are now fifth in the Western Conference right now. They seem to be doing solid at this point. Right. Obviously there are questions about the Memphis Grizzlies working on Cliff to like, scour social media, see a reason why this is going on, but. Yeah, it seems like from what we have right now.
- [28:36]
Roger Bell
No, something. Something happened. Something. Something happened.
- [28:39]
J. Kyle Mann
There's no way that this happens. Any other reason, Right. Like this.
- [28:41]
Roger Bell
Yeah, there's a. There's. I'm sorry. Like, I'm. This might not be good podcasting that you hit me, like, with.
- [28:45]
Victoria
No.
- [28:46]
Roger Bell
Something that doesn't.
- [28:46]
J. Kyle Mann
I didn't know. This literally just came in the. In the. In the chat. Let's. Let's look through this really quickly.
- [28:53]
Rasheed Wallace
Well, here's. Here's my thing. So. So would it be in. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to look on now, too, the ESPN site. But my thing is, okay, if you firing your coach right now, like you said, weeks before the playoffs, yo, who you gonna get to be the intern coach? Because who's to say that them cats like the assistant coach, you know what I'm saying? So it's. It's gonna be tough for them.
- [29:15]
Roger Bell
This is unprecedented. Isn't it connected neither. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, does anybody remember this ever happening? Like with. With 10 games left in the season with a mid. A mid pack playoff team?
- [29:24]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah.
- [29:25]
J. Kyle Mann
No. I'm gonna read the statement really quickly from the Memphis Grizzlies. It's pretty vague, but it. I'll Read it. Nonetheless, the Memphis Grizzlies today announced that they have parted ways with head coach Taylor Jenkins. I'm genuinely appreciative of Taylor's contributions to the team in this city over the past six seasons, said Grizzlies president and GM Zach Kleiman. This was a difficult decision given the consistent and tangible development of our players and the overall success of Taylor's leadership. I wish Taylor the very best going forward. Wow. Still makes zero sense.
- [29:57]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah. Something. I'm with you, Rod. Something happened. Something happened in somebody.
- [30:02]
Roger Bell
Yeah. Like. Like big she. Like.
- [30:04]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah.
- [30:04]
Roger Bell
Because what. What people don't know is there's a lot of disagreements. There's a lot of going on behind closed doors with a coach and a GM where they don't see eye to eye and they can disagree, but for the. For the greater good, they figure that out and do and work in their respective lanes towards this championship. When you say you're gonna fire a cat. 72 games in who's like, in what, their fourth or fifth place. Like, something went down. I don't know what happened, but something went down.
- [30:30]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah. Either either someone down with the organization or like, with Job some.
- [30:36]
Roger Bell
Yeah, something happened.
- [30:37]
J. Kyle Mann
How do you even move forward, though? You got 10 games left in the season. Like, how do you even. There's processes that are put in place from it list, like, you know, administratively. It's fucked up to like, to fire a coach this late in the season. Granted, that's if you're not a playoff team, but if you are a playoff team, like, the closest thing that I remember this happening to was when George Carl became the coach of the Kings way back when, like mid season. But the Kings weren't good at that point. Right. They're still trying to rebuild. This is just. And even that was hard to implement processes on the fly over the last six weeks of the season. This. You're theoretically trying to win a championship. I just don't get the logic other than if something nefarious happened. Right. Like, I don't have to.
- [31:24]
Roger Bell
Yeah, bro. Look, you.
- [31:26]
Rasheed Wallace
It's gonna come out.
- [31:27]
Roger Bell
George Carl. Yeah. I mean, you look, I'm trying to think back. I think Terry Porter was moved. That was probably. Was that midway through his season when Alvin Gentry took over. Like there. There. There are times when happens like that. I mean, Doc and Adrian Griffin. Like, that happened Tony for the Lakers.
- [31:46]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah.
- [31:46]
Roger Bell
But all of that is. Is in a different category than a team sitting in the position that the Grizzlies are. And at this point in the season.
- [31:54]
Rasheed Wallace
Do you Know how difficult, do you.
- [31:56]
Roger Bell
Know how difficult it would be for somebody to take the reins of that? Like with 10 games left in a season and steward that team into the playoffs like that. That's just a. Why, that's wild. To fire somebody right now is. Is that is wild.
- [32:11]
Rasheed Wallace
Hell of a shake up.
- [32:13]
J. Kyle Mann
I don't, I just can't. I don't know what the ramifications of this is. Even for the off season. I mean we'd have. Or Beck, who said that, you know, Can I even say it anymore, Raja? I don't know. I might get. Howard might be scared for me to even say this, but I'll just.
- [32:27]
Roger Bell
Yeah, go ahead and get you in. Howard aggregated. Just leave my name out.
- [32:31]
J. Kyle Mann
During the live show me, Raja and Howard talked about how Ja could be on the move this summer now.
- [32:39]
Roger Bell
Just like, just go ahead. Just go ahead and say Jobber. Just say Jabra will be moved this summer.
- [32:45]
J. Kyle Mann
I don't know. What does that do for it? I don't know. Do you think? I don't even know what that means. Does that, does that mean that John's gonna be moved?
- [32:52]
Roger Bell
I have no, I have no idea, dude. Like, I have no idea what any of this means. That again, I'm. This is kind of flabbergasting. I've never seen that. Like, I've never seen somebody get moved. I can't remember an instance where it happened. I don't know of a circumstance in a lot locker room sheep. You've. I just keep saying this because it just keeps coming to mind. I've been in some, some workplace environments that, that weren't necessarily toxic, but you could have a. You could have some real blow ups and, and two days later cooler heads prevail and you're like, all right, man, it. Let's go. We got to get right because we have, we got to do like. So when. When you're telling me that we can't, we can't get that done, we can't come back to the table and, and say we got 10 games left and I have to make this move right now. I can't imagine what happened.
- [33:36]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah. Maybe try to talk to the owner wife or some. I don't know that. But that's what, that's what it seemed like it might happen. You know, his daughter or something like that. For, for this firing to be this immediate. And like you said with 10 games.
- [33:50]
J. Kyle Mann
Left, yo, like actually nine. Nine games.
- [33:54]
Rasheed Wallace
It just discombobulates your whole theory from the year because now what?
- [33:58]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah. And you Know, players are up about this, right? Because players are all about routine, right? And going into an environment where routine is the most important thing.
- [34:07]
Rasheed Wallace
Who are they matched up against? Right now, if it started today, let me see.
- [34:12]
J. Kyle Mann
They would be playing against the Lakers. They are in a virtual tie right now with the Lakers.
- [34:17]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah, that would be a good matchup. But you. But you gotta have. You gotta have your coach going into that, though.
- [34:23]
J. Kyle Mann
Especially when you're going up against LeBron and, like, what JJ Redick has been as a head coach, right? Like, you can't go with an interim in that stage who's just trying to put up a new process. Like, that's. That's whoever. Remember when we were talking about how the Rockets, for better or worse, Raw or fair or unfair, are the team that people are looking at? Like, I would see right now, I'm trying to circle the Memphis Grizzlies, like, see if I can go play up against them with. And see if I can get them in the first round. Yeah, because with all the shit that's going on, do you guys do that sheet or Raja, like, where you guys just circle the team and be like, yo, if we get this team, or, like, if we could just position right here, let's go. Let's go get them.
- [35:02]
Rasheed Wallace
Hell, yeah. You supposed to, you know, like. And especially if it's. And don't let some shit happen with, like, the star player and the coach. Oh, yeah. I'm bringing that shit up right there on the floor, like, yo, like, damn, what you saying? Like, damn, dog. Like, you can't. You can't live. That coach ain't gonna let you shoot. You know, you can't play this. And that, man, you she, man. Yeah, but that coach, man, I'm like, man, that's the same thing I would be saying that coach still.
- [35:31]
J. Kyle Mann
Diabolical way, though. She. That you have gotten to somebody's head that way. What is the most diabolical way that you can. That you can share?
- [35:37]
Rasheed Wallace
I don't know. I did it a lot. I did it mainly. Mainly during the playoffs, you know, and you got that guy that's coming off the bench, he ain't played all year. And the other guy, other forward, center, might be in a little bit of foul trouble. He ain't played all year. And he coming in the game, and the coach, like, look, going there. I need you to be that wildfire, that firecracker, and he want to come in there with all the wild, crazy. Hey, my man, calm all that down. I know you excited to Be in the game, but calm all that down, huh? Take this with you, take that with you. You know what I'm saying? Just going back to the bench with all that wild. But no, I just. You just have fun out there. And my main thing, when I did talk to people, it was about them, you know, I ain't say nothing about, you know, no guys, moms or wives, kids, none of that. You know, that's crossing the line right there. When, when I'm busting your ass. I'm talking about you.
- [36:31]
J. Kyle Mann
Who's, who's the top five trash talkers that you've had, that you've been with? Not been with, but it's like played up against for sure.
- [36:38]
Rasheed Wallace
GP in the. In them, in them Seattle, Sonic days up there, Key Arena. GP for sure. Ticket kg. He's a. He's a talker. Who else who's a heavy talk? Oh, we, we made Bonzi somewhat of a talker. So when, when he had his breakout games against the Lakers and we was like, man, you see what you did against Kobe? Like, you know, Kobe the best guard out here. And now tonight you playing against so and so. Man, bust his ass, go at him. Next thing you know, Bonzi out there talking his like, get this little man off of me. Lay up and all of this. That. So it's, it's fun though. But like I said, you know, once you keep it to the game, you know, you don't, you don't make it personal to the point. Like I said, you talking about a man's family or something like that? That's, that's too far.
- [37:32]
J. Kyle Mann
Cliff back, we. We have some Philly talk for you. I think he has some questions about Philly for you.
- [37:38]
Rasheed Wallace
He's some more pigeon talk.
- [37:40]
Logan Murdoch
Nah, no, come on, man. You talking about the world champs. Yo, don't disrespect us.
- [37:43]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah, the pigeon talking. That pigeon coop up there called the stink.
- [37:49]
J. Kyle Mann
Damn.
- [37:50]
Roger Bell
Wow. Wow.
- [37:51]
Logan Murdoch
Yo, you talking about the stick. The home of the champions. Two time super bowl champions. Anyways, yo, I've always wondered. I've always wondered. You a Philly high school legend. Simon Gratz, everybody know you should have went to temple, but I mean, we.
- [38:03]
J. Kyle Mann
Was talking about that beforehand.
- [38:04]
Logan Murdoch
Should have played with Johnson.
- [38:06]
J. Kyle Mann
Tell the reason why you didn't go to temple, Seed, real quick before we go to. Before we go to the questions.
- [38:12]
Rasheed Wallace
6:00Am that was the main reason I knew I wasn't disciplined enough to be up at no 5:00, 5:15, 5:30 or whatever for 6:00 practice. And I would have been a freshman in college away from home. Nah, I knew I wasn't disciplined enough.
- [38:31]
Roger Bell
Real talk, that's a, that's a life changing wake up call, bro. 6am Practice is life changing. That's earth shattering.
- [38:38]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, I got you.
- [38:39]
J. Kyle Mann
Shit.
- [38:39]
Logan Murdoch
I'm gonna need your top five hoopers out of Philly. I already know the 1 and 2 is probably gonna be will and cold, but give me, you know what I mean? Give me those other three.
- [38:47]
Rasheed Wallace
I'm gonna go. Cuttino Mobley. Yeah. Cat was a vicious left handed shooting guard and we all grew up together. Let me see. Out of Philly. Oh, I think this guy was the best high school player that I have ever seen that I've ever played against. And he was an NBA player in high school because he was averaging like 40 in high school. Guy by the name of Kareem Towns. Rab Rad might be the best high school player I have ever seen and I'm including myself in that. Let me see then. Oh, we got some old heads in here too. I don't know, some people gonna be mad.
- [39:30]
J. Kyle Mann
You got one more spot.
- [39:32]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And it's a lot of old heads that, you know, came up through Philly. For me, I would say for the fact of, for the sake of the conversation and people know, I would definitely have to say l Train. Oh yeah, yeah. Straight out of the south actually. It's crazy. I grew up watching him. Went to a couple of style games because I lived down the street from there and my older brother was a big basketball net. So we, I was heavy into Lasalle, him, Dougio, you know, Randy woods. Like, like that was a good squad and, and Train was a scoring dude, man. Hey, you talk about put that ball in the hole one way or another. L train going to put that ball in the hole.
- [40:16]
J. Kyle Mann
Me and Cliff Prepod were talking about like just public school basketball in general, right? Like, and just like how that shit is dying right now. Like you go and. Yeah, there's a couple of public schools like out here that are like still popping and like still winning state titles up in California. But like overall I get your point. Like it is, it is dead for the most part. But can you like, can you give the inner. Tell us the energy of like Philly public school basketball when it was at his heyday and what that shit was like when you was playing?
- [40:46]
Rasheed Wallace
Oh man, it was, it was awesome. And then look, here's the thing. I ain't even gonna go into the public league with it. I'm gonna go into the Sunny Hill League with it. Cause that's. That's where all the pub kids played at. You know what I'm saying? So I was like, let's say you.
- [40:58]
J. Kyle Mann
Playing the Sunny Hills Roger at all?
- [41:00]
Roger Bell
Nope.
- [41:01]
J. Kyle Mann
No? Okay, go ahead.
- [41:02]
Rasheed Wallace
That zone was dope. So they had it on every level. They had middle school, high school, college and Pro Am. And so let's say Northwest team. That's the team I played with. So now it's me. I play with Jerome Allen, Pooh Allen, Tyrone Weeks, who I think is probably him, and Malik Rose, probably the best rebounders to come out of Philly. We were one to rival schools, but for that Sunny Hill League, we played together. And the same thing was with the other teams. You had a North Philly team, a South Philly team, and so you had all these guys from the area playing on the Sunny Hill teams. And man, those were some great games down there. McGonagall. The summer is hot outside, but in that gym, it was even more hot because you playing all day at that. So it's like, say. Say I'm playing against Roger at 2:00. So our game going then, you know, at 3:30 low, you playing against Cliff. Y'all team playing against each other, and it's like action packed. So everybody bought their own crowds and everything. All you got the whole South Philly crowd and North Philly and all that. Delaware county, yo, it was rocking. And we had the Palestra. The Palestra was a huge sporting event that was in Philadelphia, where a lot of the big five schools play. And the big five in Philly is Drexel, Temple, lasalle, Villanova and Penn. So they played like inner matches throughout their year. But the. Mainly they played at the Palestra, which was, you know, University of Penn's campus in, man. Hey, high school games, championship games.
- [42:41]
J. Kyle Mann
Wait, I've been at the Palestra. I think I went there once for a shoot around. I think the warriors was shooting around there. Like they did a. And it was. It's old.
- [42:51]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah, it's an old gym. They send Rocky in that gym.
- [42:54]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, like, it's. It's nice, man. But like, I mean, I mean that affectionately. Like, it looks like a castle or some. Like, it looks like a. You're playing in a Harry Potter movie or some.
- [43:04]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah, it's that Penn campus decoration.
- [43:07]
Roger Bell
Yeah, yeah.
- [43:08]
J. Kyle Mann
Yep. Roger, did you have any, like, experience in, like, did. When you went to the Sixers, did you have any experience just with Philly basketball in general? Like, in the inner city. Did you go to any of the games? Did you, could you feel that energy when you were playing just the level?
- [43:23]
Roger Bell
Yeah, I mean, I, I, you know, we were busy, but like I went to a lot of, I went a lot, I went to a lot of the St. Joe's Games. They had Jameer and, and Delonte at the time. And I live right up the street, so I would pop down and, and go watch them play. Coach Martelli was coaching. We get out to Villanova once in a while, but I caught, I caught some big five games in the Palestra just because they were, you know, those, those transcended like, like the Philly area. People knew about those, even Florida. So I got to catch a couple of those as a fan, which was, which was incredible. But just generally speaking, like this, the Sunny Hill League. My, my uncle, well, my mom's from right outside of Philly, so my uncle's were living in Philly at the time when I was younger and I used to come up, hang out with them and they go up to five star up at Robert Morris and like Honesdale.
- [44:07]
Rasheed Wallace
And Honesdale.
- [44:09]
Roger Bell
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I used to, I used to kick it in that little outskirts of Philly for a while and then go up and I always wanted to play in the Sunny Hill. Like I would go down, he'd take me down and we'd watch a couple games. But I never got to play because I wasn't really from the area and like that. But in terms of a, in terms of a, a, a fan base generally that consumes basketball like the, the right way. There are few places that do it like Philly on the prep level. Like when, when you know, you're not talking about your profan, you're just talking about your prep. We come out to support hours. We got a team. You got a team. Summertime, summer's in Philly, she like. I mean Chicago's got great, There are places that have great summers, but summers in Philly will always hold a really near and dear place in my heart. But, but the people that turn out, the way they turn out to support the vibe around the hoops in Philly, it's really got a, it's really got a place amongst the greats, like in the US Straight up.
- [45:02]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah.
- [45:04]
J. Kyle Mann
I was reading a book, I just finished it actually on Kobe over the last couple of weeks and it was written, I think it was Roland Lazarby, I probably rest up his name, but he's a great author. But they were talking extensively about The Sunny Hill League and how much of a community, how much it was, the history behind it, and how much it really was just a beacon for the community. Like, Sunny Hill literally made it so, like, keep people off the streets. And, like, as a result, it did build it. A lot of pros, but Jelly Bean was a big part of that in the beginning as well. And then into Kobe. Do you have any Sunny Hill Kobe story sheet?
- [45:44]
Rasheed Wallace
Kobe came after me in Sunny Hill. I'm a little bit older than him, so when he was. When he was playing with the Delaware County Lower Marion team. No, I was already gone.
- [45:59]
J. Kyle Mann
Okay. Was there a buzz there, though, when you was. When you was like, about this dude? Like, that was like, oh, man. Like, he might be good. And then you was like, man.
- [46:06]
Rasheed Wallace
Oh, yeah, yeah. No, it was definitely buzz going around the city because. And then the thing about it, you know, everyone was just saying that he. He was a good player, and they couldn't. They couldn't find another Philly great or whatever. So, you know, do the comparison with. Or whatever, because I would probably say he's. He's probably one of the best shooting guards that come out of Philly.
- [46:27]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah.
- [46:27]
Rasheed Wallace
And. And it was a. It was a lot of hype around him. You know, it was like, oh, and up there, the biggest question, oh, where's he going to go to school at? What. What is Villanova doing? You know, Villanova is down the street from his house, and his pops went to lasalle. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, everybody thought they had a little inside track with him, and he was like, I got something for all y'all and went straight to the league.
- [46:52]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to have some MVP talk, but more just like just some yokage talk, because we talked about jokers last time you were on the program sheet. I know he's probably not going to win MVP for this season. Just. I mean, the injury, I think, like, really took him out of the running and just missing all these games. But as a big man, can you really put into perspective, like, the special type of season that we are seeing from him right now, just like. And how hard it is to kind of put some of the stat lines out? Can you put, like, a meat and potatoes perspective of, like, what he's doing right now as a big man in this modern game?
- [47:31]
Rasheed Wallace
I see. I see him making a dent in the game the same way that Shaq did. You know, when. When Shaq first came to the league and, you know, he was breaking backboards, rims, the whole back supports and all of that stuff, but he was a figure. He was a monster. And, you know, he had that force with him. And with. To me, with Joker. Joker, he's not necessarily as physical or monstrous as Shaq was, but the skill set is there. You know, he can pass, he can shoot, put it on the floor good enough to get to the basket, and he's. I think what makes him a great player. For real. For real, in my opinion, is the fact that he's unselfish. You know, he, like, look. And I don't know him personally, never met him, but just from watching them play, you can see that it's like, all right, if they trying to double me or, you know, they coming at me and I see my man, I'm gonna zip that ball to him real quick. I'm not going to take that shot over a double team or nothing like that. You can see he's a team player, and you don't see that too much in today's game because everybody is out for self. Everybody want to jack up all the threes and. But, you know, he mixes his game up. That's what I like about him. He's not always going to stand out there on that wing to shoot them threes. No. Hey, if you see that mismatch, I'm gonna go ahead, do the old school, slow back down and go ahead and get this bucket.
- [48:56]
J. Kyle Mann
What do you. What do you. What do you think about what he's done over the last. Over the last few weeks? Raja, I mean, we haven't talked to you in a minute. I would love your opinion on it. What have you. What have you seen from him when he's played?
- [49:08]
Roger Bell
I mean, he. He's. I mean, I see what. I see from him all the time, and, like, he's just a. He's a. He's a, you know, a kind of a puppeteer out there, man. Like, he just. I mean, I don't know what you would call it. If you're like the marionette doll, I guess it is the puppeteer. But, like, he has an ability to just move. Move all the pieces with, like, what he does, right? And his mastery. I was talking in the kitchen, the other, like, one of my buddies on vacation with me, he's a basketball coach. And, like, all of our kids clearly hoop. And we were. We were just kind of talking about it, and he came up and him, LeBron Luca, I mean, they're guys like this where they. When they move, everything moves right because of how good they are. But their mastery of the Understanding, you know, of that. So when, you know, I do this, you know she's got to do that. And you know, a lot of, a lot of players can play like one pass ahead in a sequence. So like, I drew a big. I can hit that or I drew a big. The help is coming to take away my first read, so I'll go to the second read. Like, Jokic plays three passes ahead. Like, LeBron plays three and four passes ahead, where you're like, how the fuck did. How the fuck would he make that pass? How would you even see that? Like the one that caught Brook Lopez the other night, standing there wondering, which way did he go? Which way did he go? Like, he's just so far ahead in the sequences of how these pieces are moving in relation to him. Like, I don't know if I'm doing the description of it justice, but that's what it looks like to me. Like, he's going to move and everything else is going to move and he's just way out in front of that, like the Matrix almost, right? And I mean, treat is correct. He. Here's the deal. He looks like he's so lazy. Like, and I mean this affectionately, like, like, I'm sure he's not lazy, but he looks lazy, right? And so he looks like you after.
- [51:04]
J. Kyle Mann
Four days a drink. A day drinking.
- [51:06]
Roger Bell
Damn right. So, like, it's, it's. But it's almost, it's almost like he's like, man, I'd much rather let you guys do all this hard work and score the ball if I could just set you up to do that. But you know what I mean, like, that's his normal instinct, is to just be like, man, if we can win a game and I can have 27 assists and she has 40, like, I'm cool with that.
- [51:28]
J. Kyle Mann
He's like, fine, I'll shoot this three, bro. Fine. I got it. I got mine.
- [51:33]
Roger Bell
His scoring is almost like out of necessity, right? Like, it's like, all right, bro, I got to keep you honest. So I'll score a few buckets and I'm really good at that, but I'd much rather just like have 28 assists and then, you know, get up out of here.
- [51:46]
Rasheed Wallace
So it's a mastery.
- [51:49]
Roger Bell
That's what's up.
- [51:50]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, that sounds like a good life. Good working, get it?
- [51:54]
Rasheed Wallace
And then, you know, you know, the other thing I would, I would say about, about Joker, if you look at previous athletes who dominate their sport, man, they in tip top condition. You know, they might be a little jacked Up a little bit. Hey, yo, if somebody said to me few years back, looking at him that he's gonna be the best player in the NBA, I would have been like, no way. Just. Just looking at, you know, his body structure, like for me and you know, this is the basketball turn and y'all know it. He doesn't pass the eye test. Nah, he doesn't pass the eye test, but damn. Hey, the bull could play though. I ain't gonna front the ball.
- [52:34]
J. Kyle Mann
Comply. It's gonna be at. I can't wait to see them in the playoffs. Nuggets are just so interesting because they do have Jokic, but they also are perpetually bound to get tired in the second round. And somebody like, I, I wish that there was just a better supporting cast and better depth around him so he could have like proper chances to win multiple titles, you know, he's like 30 now, so we'll see. I have a couple more questions for you and then we got ruin a week and I'll get you out of here. But she and Roger, I just saw this come down the pike. No, it's. No, not no more Taylor Jenkins news. We'll get. If I find that, we'll get some more. But the NBA will not keep the All Star mini tournament for next season. They scrapped it. Good, good, bad. So they even done it in the beginning. Was this a big waste of time? Like, what do we feel about. About the, the forever changing of the All Star format? Like what, what. What gives.
- [53:29]
Rasheed Wallace
What. What. What it says about the game is we in trouble. You're coming up with all these gimmicks to try to please the fans because everybody just tired of watching these for 48 minutes. Just Jack up threes. Like even cats that ain't supposed to be shooting threes is jacking up threes. Like, yo, that gets boring. And number one, it takes away from the game because it don't take a skill set to shoot a three. You know what I'm saying? Anybody can shoot it. The worst man on the team could shoot it. No matter how ugly the jump shot is. Can you imagine if he played in today's game with Chuck Hayes? Three point shot would look like that's going to be scary. But that, that whole.
- [54:15]
J. Kyle Mann
That actually might be entertaining though. She. I don't know.
- [54:18]
Rasheed Wallace
I would rather watch that than that little mini mini tournament or whatever they wanted to call it for the All Star Game. But it's just all gimmicks. Look to simplify the All Star game to make it like it was yo, all you gotta do is get a couple people like, yo, look, all right, y'all out here joking. No, I'm serious. As out here today. You know, the same that back in the day when Roger and I were playing like the All Star Games, we played in. Yo, all that joking and I'm gonna just go ahead and let you do your fancy. Don't no out of here. Like the only freebies that from. If you look at it from the All Star Games back in the day was like the fast break, full length court pass. That was it. Other than that, no cats is D up. You know I'm saying. Of course it was. I would say it was hard token defense. You know, I'm not necessarily 100 gonna give you the forearm shiver, you know, it's just give you some, some taps, let you know I'm here and we out here, we playing. You know what I'm saying? It's like a organized game, organized scrimmage, but this with that, it's gimmicks, man. And I think they had some success with the, what you call it, the little.
- [55:26]
J. Kyle Mann
The skills drill challenge.
- [55:28]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah, now that's a successful draw. I like that. You know, whoever thought of that one, boom. They hit it right on the money with that. But whoever thought of this last one, yo, they need to be fired or demoted.
- [55:43]
Roger Bell
Yeah, it's. It's. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of screams desperation, like, just to add on to that. Like you're just searching.
- [55:49]
J. Kyle Mann
So it just feels like, I mean, we talked about this in the All Star and I'll keep it at this, bro, but like, I don't think it's the game itself. It's just like the. Around it, man. Like I was talking to some players and it's like, well, you give us like 10 minutes to warm up, you get us out of routine on a Sunday. I think also whatever. Everything you said she was valid. But you get us out of our routine. We don't really. And then it's so much more corporatized now. There's so many parties, bro like you are. People want to get the fuck up out of the city by Sunday. Right? And so it's a lot of those things. But like, you don't make an environment for a basketball game. How are you going to have a good basketball game exactly?
- [56:29]
Roger Bell
Well, look, but look, though, like, let's be. Let's keep it a buck. I mean, I never played in an All Star game, so, like, I appreciate you throwing me in their sheet about All Star games. That we play, but I ain't never played no damn All Star game. I did go to one as a three point contestant. There were always a bunch of parties around All Star Weekend. That was always a thing, right? Everybody had their mapped out idea of what they wanted to go and get into. You had much less time to recover and recuperate from your all star weekend, like responsibilities back then. Now you've got, you've got the all Star weekend and then most cats get to go on a little mini vacay out there with sheed in that. Like how if you're the league and you've accommodated dudes saying, hey, we don't have enough time off. Like, this is, this is too much. You know, our bodies need the rest. And you've said, all right, we'll stretch it for you guys and give you more rest. And the product gets worse. Like, what the are we doing?
- [57:22]
J. Kyle Mann
Like, I'm gonna give you all the.
- [57:23]
Roger Bell
Time off you wanted and you. And you still are. And you're gonna play even less hard than you played before. That's crazy work. So, like, it, it just, it does take, you know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not mad. I'm not, I'm not the old dude right now, the old curmudgeon. Like, I really don't care, quite frankly. But if you wanted to see a better product, it's on the dudes playing in the game, the older one, specifically, to go out there and say, I want a better product. You know who had that spirit last year? Not for nothing, Wemby.
- [57:51]
J. Kyle Mann
Yes.
- [57:52]
Roger Bell
Wendy was on that shit. Like, fuck y'all. Like, I come from a place and a mindset where I don't know how to go like 20%. So I'm going to go 80%. And then it's up to everybody else to match that. But they need a few people doing.
- [58:04]
Rasheed Wallace
That, I. E. Sean Taylor in the promo.
- [58:09]
Roger Bell
Yes, sir.
- [58:10]
J. Kyle Mann
Knocking out.
- [58:11]
Rasheed Wallace
I love that we out here, dog. I love, it's like, like you said, Rogers, you know, the product is getting worse. It's, it's, it's the threes and cats not really being amazing. Other craft, yo, it's just like, look, I'm just getting this money. I'm good. Everything else.
- [58:29]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, yeah. Sheet, what did you. Your hip hop head? What did you think about being in fake weight into Kendrick Drake V?
- [58:38]
Rasheed Wallace
Oh, that was funny. Hey, look, hey look. When I first saw it, my man sent it to me. He's like, he's like, damn, fam, he's like, you. You signing on. On this Drake. You giving them sound bites. I'm like, what you talking about? And he sent me the little joint, and, yeah, it had me in the front. I was cracking the up. Yo, that was funny.
- [59:00]
J. Kyle Mann
What do you say? Like, you ain't no. Ain't no round twos or something like that? Or. We'll see you. We'll see you in it. What was your quote in the. That he. That you shared?
- [59:06]
Rasheed Wallace
Oh, no, it was the. It was the time when I said the. Guaranteed the win. I said, y'all put it on the front page, back page, middle of the page, we will win game two.
- [59:17]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, that worked out for y'all. I don't think that necessarily worked out for Drake.
- [59:21]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah, he just. He just need to go ahead and leave that boy alone, man. He need to go ahead and leave him. Because, look, Drake, when. When he's rapping and singing, like, all right, you know, you're doing your career, but, yo, battling. That's not you, dog. You. You didn't grow up with that. That's not you. And right now, you over two. Like, nah, pushing, pushing. T, shut him up real fast. And now, you know Kendrick shut him up. He want to come back at Kendrick after that.
- [59:50]
J. Kyle Mann
I love this Philly erasure right now. He did. He's 1 and 2. Okay, let's @ least give the man his credit. I know he got. I know he got Meek, but, like, we can't. We got it. I know we did. And I know Philly is, like, rocking with Meek, and I understand that. I'm just.
- [60:03]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah, that wasn't a real battle to me. That was more. More hype. That was. That was over radio songs, you know, when he. When Drake ain't on the radio, all being played on the radio. I don't know. I don't know about them bars, cuz. And then on the other thing, he got too many Ghost Riders. He's got too many Ghost Riders.
- [60:25]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, yeah. One is enough.
- [60:30]
Roger Bell
Can I. Can I ask a question to you two, though? Like, just real talk before we get out of here, when we're talking about beefs. Have you. You've seen, obviously, the friend of the show, Stephen A. Smith's beef with. With LeBron James. We've been watching it back and forth.
- [60:42]
J. Kyle Mann
Let's do it.
- [60:42]
Roger Bell
Yeah, we've been watching this, right?
- [60:44]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah.
- [60:44]
Roger Bell
My kids kind of hit me to it. I didn't even know what's going on. What do we think about that?
- [60:50]
J. Kyle Mann
First of all, I love you, Roger. The fucking. The growth, right? Here, buddy. Let's. Let's go, let's go. What I think about it, first of all, I think it's just sad all the way around. Like, what are we doing here? You know, Like, I feel like this could have been, this is a two week news cycle where it could have been a. That could have been a phone call literally, right? Like, like Brian Windhorse is catching strays, right? Like, for no reason. And like, Brian's a nice guy. He's been on the pod. There was no reason for that. There was no reason for that, right? And then like, and you know, we. I rock with Stephen A. But damn dog like you, he went on every single show to talk about this, man. LeBron telling you that he didn't want to talk about it, right? And I think that, like, it's, it's kind of. I'll just say this from a media standpoint, right? Like, when that happens, and I'm curious to get she's point of view, but when that stuff happens from a media perspective, it messes up the relationship between the media or between players like Sheed and you, Raja, and people like myself who aren't necessarily like, because, who aren't necessarily like in the mix like this. But the face of the media will be a Stephen A. Smith or a Skip Bayless whom people don't like, and they take it out on us who are trying to tell a story and who are not really trying to get out here and do clickbait shit, right? Like, we're not trying to do all that stuff and that messes up our job. So on one hand it's entertaining and I did watch all the Stephen A's responses and I did watch LeBron's thing. That's entertaining. But on the other side, I'm just like, damn, man. Like, I don't want to be cast into that part of media because I'm not. And it is unfair to people like me who are trying to do the behind the scenes job. That's all. That's my thing with it. Those are my thoughts. Sheed, what are your thoughts?
- [62:42]
Rasheed Wallace
How it started was, to me, it was okay. And I. And what I mean by that is, look, he was talking about Bronny, but. And bro and Big Bron came in and, you know, defended his son. All right, cool. I get that. But what Big Brian also has to understand is Bronnie signed his NBA contract. And in this NBA contract, when he signed it, he became fair game at a lot of media people out there. You know what I'm Saying to. To target him, you know, it's. It's part of it. So I think. I think, in my opinion, Brown was wrong for that part. But I also understand him coming from the father perspective of it now. Yeah, Stephen A probably shouldn't have said the whole part, like, as a father. As a black father. Okay, leave that out. You know what I'm saying? Just. He might have went a little too far with it right there. So in me, in my opinion, and in that first one, both of them, you know, made a little mistake. But like you said, for this to keep going on for two weeks, and then Stephen A like, oh, man, if. If. If. If it would have came to it, I would have swung on him. And then you got people showing the meme with Stephen A Trying to box and like, yo, I'm telling you this. This is hilarious. It's hilarious. But, yes, I do agree with what you said, because there are some reporters who, quote, unquote, are the face of the media, and that can it up for, you know, more local media guys, you know what I'm saying? Because now you going at this star, and you. I got to talk to him to get, you know, my back here to the editor, and now he ain't gonna talk because you coming out here with this dumb. You know what I'm saying? So it's. It's. Both of them just need to calm down, and everybody just need to go ahead and. And move this out the way. Stop trying to make so much out of it. Everywhere that Brian goes on the. What's the one, dude, the boy on ESPN, Pat McAfee show, he was talking about it a little bit, and, you know, that riled it back up. You know, I was like, man, just let that die. They ain't gonna fight. You know what I'm saying? And it's just. It's just the. The player speaking up for his son, and it's just the reporter doing his.
- [65:08]
J. Kyle Mann
Job, selling wolf tickets. Yeah, okay. Cliff has been texting me. He wants to come back on again. He has to ask you a Sixers question, and we can get out of here. He's like, we have to ask about the Sixers. We have to do this. Go ahead, Cliff. Go ahead.
- [65:21]
Logan Murdoch
Gee, let's keep it simple, dog. What the hell is wrong with the Sixers? Yo? I know you. I know you got mad love for the Sixers. I know you've seen the team in disarray this year. They still might not get they pick if the lottery balls bounced the wrong way. I've been watching Cooper Flag. I've been getting hyped.
- [65:34]
J. Kyle Mann
He's asking for more misery, brother. That's every other episode.
- [65:37]
Logan Murdoch
We could be real disappointed right now. Let's go with the Sixers, dawg.
- [65:41]
Rasheed Wallace
Right now, dog. And it started to me, it started in the summer because first of all, if I just paid this dude 250something million and. And your knee is already jacked up. Nah, you're not playing in the Olympics, dog. No, I did, because you know why? Because number one, the Olympics ain't investing in you. So tell the Olympic committee to tell the OIC or IOC, whichever they call it. Tell them to pay you 250 million for. For this time. No, he should have sat out that way. Your knees getting healthier. You got all summer, you know, rehab and getting stronger, doing the things you need to do with it. But he doesn't. So now he's dragging his knee all through the Olympics, dragging this knee all through training camp and preseason. And then what me up is how you gonna come out and say before the season even start, I'm not playing back to backs this year? Like what? Like, you know what that does? That. That kills the morale of the team, dog. Like you saying that you won't do before the season even started. And then I'm mad at the fact I told. Told people, yo, we should have won after DeMar DeRozan. DeMar DeRozan fits Philly, you know what I'm saying? Even though, yeah, he is the LA kid, but he fits Philly just. Just his whole demeanor, the way he plays the midi and all that. He ain't out there trying to be pretty. And then when we got Paul George, I was like, all right, we got Paul George. Like, let's see what he do. And then when they gave him all that bread and then all the bread, then you ain't playing. You doing worse than what Tobias Harris did. Nah, that ain't sitting right. And now we stuck, you know what I'm saying? Because ain't nobody gonna take either one of them bum ass dudes right now. So we stuck my. And then I feel bad for Nick Nurse, you know what I'm saying? Because here it is. And I think he's a pretty good coach. But now the ain't fair to him because we ain't got no big. No scoring bigs. You know, we got some backup centers, they're doing their job, they're trying to play. You know, my man Dre. Dre Drummond is there too. He's trying to do his Thing, but, you know, our backup and be. You know, and be. When he's balling down there on them blocks and he not trying to be KD out there. And how you gonna be 7 foot 1 or 2, you trying to hesitate, get cast a heavy crossover and all that, man, if you don't get your big ass down there on that block and score this rock, dog, where they can't stop you and get this game, man. But, yeah, I'm so pissed with the Sixes this year. And then here's the thing. Like I said, I can't even put it on the organization or the coaches. It's two dudes. It's two dudes that. That set it all for us. And it's like. I'm like, I don't know what the hell is going on. Why? Why? And then you got the young boy. And I love Maxi. I love the way Maxi called him out.
- [68:34]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah.
- [68:35]
Rasheed Wallace
Oh, man. Yeah. Hey, yo, how you gonna be the captain? You know? You know, you the star player of the team, but then you don't go come to meetings, you show up late to practice. We know you're not practicing. So, damn, you gotta be there for damn rehab everybody else. Because now you messing this stuff up. Because the trainer's dealing with you during practice when he should be keeping his eye on, you know, the other guys out there on the floor. Yo, you gotta get the practice early, dog, or you won't have to stay after.
- [69:07]
J. Kyle Mann
Like, damn, that sucks when it's your star player, though, right? Like, oh, man.
- [69:13]
Rasheed Wallace
So you know what's gonna happen, in my opinion? I think. I think they. The. The fans, we sick of it, man. We about to run this dude out of Philly, dog. I could see it. I could see it because already, already they don't go out. You know what I'm saying? Like, back in the day, you know, when AI was there, you know, Blue. You know, y'all cats would step out to the little clubs or something. A little bar, you know, a little drinky drink. They ain't doing that now. And he better not come out. I'm not sure where he lives at, but it's obviously in a safe area neighborhood where. Oh, yeah, we still love you. And Joel do it guy.
- [69:50]
J. Kyle Mann
No, he had, like, you weak.
- [69:54]
Rasheed Wallace
Yeah, you go in the hood, downtown somewhere. Yo, they gonna let Joel and be. He gonna hear it. Let him go to the gas station. Let him go to a restaurant or some, you know, downtown Philly.
- [70:07]
J. Kyle Mann
Let him hit a TGI Fridays, man.
- [70:09]
Rasheed Wallace
If he go to Club Fridays, he Gonna hear it. He gonna hear it like cats in the city, just fed up with the. And then. So you're in your progression. You got mvp, you know what I'm saying? So now the next step is to take your team to the conference finals. Okay? Boom. After the conference finals, that next year, we in the finals, you know, that same progression that we saw with Boston. That's what I wanted. We were on the way. And then this. Wants to play in the Olympics and all this other shit. Like, dog, first. Because first, he. Remember, he came into the league dragging the knee because I. I think his. He didn't play his, what, his whole rookie season or, like, half of it.
- [70:52]
Logan Murdoch
His first two years and then a portion of the third year, and he had a messed up foot. It wasn't a knee. It was a foot.
- [70:56]
Rasheed Wallace
Okay? It was the foot. Okay. Well, it came in dragging it still. It's like, dog, come on, man, sit your ass down. Let that knee heal up. And then, boom. Let's go out here and win some games. Talk to Paul George, look, I'm gonna need you to go ahead and, you know, get some of that la. Who riding you, dog?
- [71:14]
J. Kyle Mann
Like, man from la, though. I'm sorry. He ain't from la, though. He from Palmdale. That's a. Palmdale. That's a. That's Central California. I tried to claim that as la, but LA was, like, rejected. Like, get the out of here. I tried, okay?
- [71:29]
Rasheed Wallace
See? Learn something new every day. So my fault. La. I. I mean, to put that on y'all. My fault. My fault.
- [71:38]
J. Kyle Mann
What a great. Thank you, Cliff, for that. That. Thank you. She just a great.
- [71:42]
Roger Bell
She.
- [71:43]
Logan Murdoch
She just, like. That was everything I've been thinking for the last. I don't even know how long this season been going on for.
- [71:49]
J. Kyle Mann
This is really misery in the flesh. It's just. It's just. It's. Mwah. It's just, you know, it's great. Even when you guys win Super Bowls, you know, this ain't, you know, snowballs still get thrown at Santa.
- [72:01]
Rasheed Wallace
Hell, yeah.
- [72:06]
J. Kyle Mann
All right. That was a. A phenomenal. Another phenomenal episode with Sheet. You know, we gonna have you on again, brother. You know. You know what it is? You know, we got mad love for you, Rasheed Wallace. Hello. This episode is brought to you by Universal Pictures. Today's the day. From Universal Pictures and Blumhouse come a storm of terror. From the director of the shallows. The woman in the yard, don't let her in. Where does she come from? What does she want? When will she leave the Woman in the Yard in theaters now. Oh, dear. We are back. This is Logan Murdoch. I'm here with which, sir, it's so he. It's been a long time. How you been?
- [72:54]
Victoria
It's been too long, Logan. It's been too long. It's nice to hear your voice over these podcast airwaves.
- [73:00]
J. Kyle Mann
It's great to hear your voice as well, sir. I don't know where that came from, but, you know, we're here to talk.
- [73:04]
Victoria
You're just getting silly. You're getting silly. The intrusive stuff is coming out. You're talking to a friend.
- [73:09]
J. Kyle Mann
I know. This is also.
- [73:10]
Victoria
You're unmasking.
- [73:11]
J. Kyle Mann
This is also technically, like towards the end of this podcast that's coming out, whenever it comes out. And it's like the loopy part of it. So, you know, I'm fresh off a plane, I'm tired. I think this is a great episode.
- [73:24]
Victoria
Me too. I'm excited.
- [73:26]
J. Kyle Mann
Let's do it.
- [73:27]
Victoria
You're liable to say anything right now.
- [73:30]
J. Kyle Mann
Good thing we have editors. Anyway, I wanted to get you on the program for a long time, but also specifically, you have a great show called the Ringer WNBA show with great guests. And, you know, it's been a while we haven't talked W outside of the chat in like, outside of like our two hour phone conversation. So I figured we'd bring one of those phone conversations here and let's just go through grief and heartbreak and. And detachment and all of that. It's been a big week. Juju. Juju Watkins to her ACL earlier this week. And it was very sad. I tried to vent to you. You said you were writing. I was like, fine, cool. But it got me to thinking a lot about where we are in anointment of W stars at this point, right. Where felt like juju was becoming the next one right before our eyes in this tournament, right? And also by extension, this regular season, right. She beats UConn on national television. She has a signature win. She beats UCLA. She is uplifting a historically great program at USC, but a program that had fallen on hard 40 years just kind.
- [74:48]
Victoria
Of not being very important. It was kind of like they had.
- [74:53]
J. Kyle Mann
They had the Monica right era as fictional. That as that was, it still was an era of USC basketball, right. Like 11 basketball was a USC era that was probably. They won a national championship, right? Yeah, they had that anyway.
- [75:06]
Victoria
So in the public imagination.
- [75:09]
J. Kyle Mann
Right. And that's all that matters. So I'm just. But it made me curious of like, we're coming on the off the heels of Caitlin Clark and what that phenomenon was, and it felt like something was building here. Where are that leads to my question. Where are we with the future of the W superstar and how does juju Watkins injury affect that trajectory right now?
- [75:37]
Victoria
Well, I think let's start with just what juju is, what she means and, you know, just the star power that she was starting to develop. Like you mentioned, those games against UConn, against UCLA especially. I think in this era of college basketball, the transfer portal and everything just being chaotic, mega conferences, all of that. The fact that juju Watkins just hated UCLA is a thing that really, really endeared her to me and I think to other fans, because I think that's what we all want to feel. Everybody just wants to feel like the athletes care just as much as the fans do about these things. That, you know, frankly, a lot. A lot of athletes, like, are kind of. They've become almost like over professionalized and like, oh, every game's the same. Juju's not like that. Juju was like, there's no way. You can't tell me that. Like, I'd be remiss to say if I. If I didn't get up a little bit more for these types of rivalry games. She's talking before about how she wants it to feel like football. Then she goes and has these games that like, you know, not only on the court, performance wise, live up to that, but she's also jawing with the crowd. She's doing the fours down. She's kind of becoming a showman right in front of our eyes. And I think that's what is part of the. Part of what makes this so sad is this was going to be the portion of the season where the most amount of people would have gotten to see juju. And potentially in an Elite Eight rematch against Paige Becker's UConn, potentially UCLA down the line in the final four for like a fourth matchup. We just don't get any of that anymore. And there was a lot of energy being poured into her. You know, I think there's. If there's one thing that I could say exists in women's basketball now that maybe didn't before, is there's an infrastructure to build a superstar when there wasn't necessarily always that, right? So if you have the juice, if you. If you have all those things, a lot of weight can be put behind you. And there has been, you know, Nike, McDonald, like, all these. All these sponsors. She's Gatorade, like, we're gonna be Watching the rest of the tournament and juju is going to be the headliner in these ads. She's the voiceover for like even the Gatorade Cooper flag ad. You have people asking, oh, who's more popular, Cooper Flag or juju Watkins? And Google Trend says it's juju Watkins, by the way. But that's just part of, you know, like she was also going to, she was going to not only be able to kind of get her star out there, but also bring in new fans that were probably thinking, oh yeah, like I should check out juju Watkins. Like I've, I've seen her on billboards all over la and maybe you haven't tuned into a game yet, maybe you've seen highlights and that's kind of what's been lost. So I don't know who exactly fills in that vacuum. I will say this particular year I think that the star power has been pretty flattened out. You know, I don't think it's really been like a juju and Paige only sort of thing. You look at the ratings for of These games, LSU versus South Carolina, South Carolina versus Texas, Notre Dame versus UConn, Notre Dame versus USC. You do see that, you know, players like Hannah Hidalgo, players like in the South Carolina dynasty, obviously Blaje Johnson, Madison Booker, they are definitely a draw. I think that as much as people wanted juju to be the person or thought juju would be the person that like single handedly took the torch from Caitlin Clark, I don't really think that's what it's been. I think it's been, you know, everybody has sort of been able to rise up and we have more pockets of kind of niche stardom building up. Right. So it's not, I think let's say if this happened to Caitlin Clark last year, right, it would be of like a DEFCON 1 emergency as far as, you know.
- [79:07]
J. Kyle Mann
Are you saying the juju injury, was it a DEFCON 1 emergency? Was in my household, I think it's.
- [79:11]
Victoria
I mean it was, but I would say it's DEFCON 5. I would say it was DEFCON 5. You know, like alerts are definitely, you know, you got, you got, you gotta definitely. It's gonna hurt. It's definitely gonna hurt. It sucks for her, it sucks for usc, it sucks for the tournament. It definitely takes some of the air out of it. Like, there's absolutely no denying that. I think that's part of what all of us have been kind of grieving as well, just like waiting for this moment. But I do think that there is space for somebody else to emerge. And I think something like we can talk about. We talk about on the phone too, right? Like, we kind of need that to be organic. I think that's kind of like the next step here.
- [79:47]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah. No, why? In my mind, like, I thought that the juju, I mean, I do still believe that there was a large level of organic star power with juju. Right? Like even. Because stars are all about storylines. Storylines build stars. And she had the perfect one. Especially, you know, you put it in your piece recently about how she goes to South Carolina and sees Asia Wilson statue and is like, you know what? I'm going to build this legacy back home just like Asia did. But I'm going to be like her, but in a different way. Right. She has the fact that she grew up in or played basketball and her game grew up in Watts. Right. And then she goes and plays for usc. I told you that Monica Wright propaganda actually works. It worked recruiting wise. It may not have put any real wins for USC in the actual column, but it was just a big foreshadow is all I'm saying.
- [80:42]
Victoria
I will say, I will say, when you talk about the power of her emerging stardom before the season, the one person that juju wanted to see come to a game was Saniya Lathan. And then lo and behold, the first UCLA game. Who's there? Like, she's got the juice like that. You know, she's, she's manifesting her dreams.
- [80:58]
J. Kyle Mann
See, she does, right? And like, you know, I have in my, in my group chats, hashtag boo boo for juju, shout out Jomi. Talking about like all the, the teams that want to potentially tank in the W just to get juju on the roster, right? Like, it does seem like that there.
- [81:16]
Victoria
Was a sort of future Toronto tempo. Juju Watkins.
- [81:19]
J. Kyle Mann
I was thinking like more like a Golden State Valkyries. I think if you just bring that.
- [81:22]
Victoria
You guys are gonna be too good. You know, I just think you guys are getting too good.
- [81:25]
J. Kyle Mann
See what we're doing here. Okay. Anyways. But I think that's the power of it, right? And. But I do. What do you think is the better approach? Right? Because last year it was the Caitlin Clark effect. Felt like if I'm going to go into a music record label type comparison, it's like Taylor Swift as the lead artist on a label that pays for everything else. Right. But like when you go see, you go into Taylor Swift's algorithm. I don't know what's in Taylor Swift's algorithm, but purposes of this argument, you see like an angel Reese, right? You see these other types of players. This is a different type of vacuum, right, where you do. And I think this is as a cause of the Caitlin Clark effect a year later. But, like, what is better for. Is it. Is it good that it goes in waves, or is it better if it just continues to be in this sort of context that we see this year? We have just multiple different stars that haven't taken the mantle yet.
- [82:25]
Victoria
I mean, I think you always want the big star, right? Like, this is a sport that deifies the individual. So to be able to have that is always going to be better than having. As much as we talk about parody, right? Like, even if you look at the NBA right now, the NBA has never been more competitive, never had more parity. And what has made it more. What has finally drawn, like, a person like myself back in? Luka getting traded to The Lakers and LeBron James beefing with Stephen A. Like, that's just. That's just how it goes. That's how we are. We want a big star. Like the. Like, if I wanted to sing the praises of, like, where women's basketball is at right now, as far as, you know, gameplay goes, I could easily do that. I don't think the game has ever looked or, you know, been more aesthetically pleasing. I don't think the skill level, like, the development that these athletes are getting from a young age, the resources that are being poured into them have ever been better. You have players like Hannah Hidalgo who are absolutely electric to watch. We can definitely go down that way. And that's important. Right? And it's great that that still exists so that, you know, let's. This. In this juju situation, we're still going to have a great tournament. I'm still very excited for the Sweet 16 Elite 8, but that's not what we're like. We're having a conversation about what's going to appeal to America at large. You. You kind of. You need that headliner. And I think juju was a headliner.
- [83:40]
J. Kyle Mann
I do, too. I think, you know, I thought about this, you know, throughout this, throughout our conversation yesterday, just what the differences are between, you know, her and Caitlin in terms of star power. Obviously, race put, you know, played a part in the differences in how both were marketed in general. Right. Or just a scene by America. But one other thing that I thought about in the immediate comparison that came to mind, I would have asked you this question the night that juju got injured, but, you know, you were busy writing And I really wanted to ask, do we need.
- [84:17]
Victoria
Like, if we need to talk about that, we can, you know, like, did you feel like I wasn't there for you in a moment of need? Because you've mentioned it twice now.
- [84:24]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, man. A lot of people were locked in, man. A lot. It wasn't just you. I'm disappointed in a lot of people that just weren't locked into the juju pain that I was going through because it happened, like, just.
- [84:35]
Victoria
I think I was extremely locked into it. I just had to create content.
- [84:38]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, no, no, they weren't locked into the group. The group chat part of the discussion. Right. I think I forgot I was at a game or something and I saw it. I think I was in. Where. Oh, where I just came back from that I won't speak on right now, but I was at a game and I saw the screenshot and I'm like, who do I text? I text. I texted everybody, but apparently all my W homies was working, so, you know, I guess that's what it is. Anyway, the point being is after I got over the. The heartbreak of no one hitting me.
- [85:06]
Victoria
Back, the abandonment on top of the grief, it's tough.
- [85:09]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah. After that happened, I immediately thought of Paige Beggars and I thought about. It's basically a carbon copy of what happened with her. Right. And just to think about what the recovery timeline would be and what this will ultimately do for juju's legacy. Right. Because I feel like in two years, we're going to be, you know, how we're, I think, part of the. A large part of the W community in the. In the women's basketball community is rooting for Paige Beckers right now to win a national title that may or may not have gotten robbed from her because she got injured. Right. I feel like we're going to have that similar galvanizing effect with juju. Right. Like, how do you feel like the return is going to be?
- [85:53]
Victoria
Well, definitely, I think people are going to be rooting for it. Anytime somebody has a devastating injury like that, it definitely, you know, creates organic sympathy for sure. And if she like it also, I guess it depends on how she comes back too. But when I also think about the page injury, maybe that is also kind of what created space for the Caitlin Clark effect as well. Maybe. I mean, look, I mean, it probably would have happened anyway. Right. But I think, like, that's when, like, we bring it back to, like, the organic part of this and, like, even the differences in the similarities between the two of them. I Think the one thing that gets really underrated about the Caitlin Clark thing is she didn't go to UConn. You know, like, she did not go to a place that was a star making vehicle. The mo. Like, the most that she had going for her as a freshman and a sophomore is that she played on the Big Ten network. So some of the, like, a lot of games would have been on television for her that weren't for, you know, players playing in other networks or like the Pac 12. That doesn't exist anymore. Right. That was kind of it, though. Like, I think people discovered Caitlyn just kind of by watching her on tv, you know, and being like, oh, who the hell is that? Right. And I think that's part of what made it such a tidal wave by the time it was at its peak.
- [87:02]
J. Kyle Mann
And she has a game that's like, that's perfect for the modern game. And also just. She is a showman as well.
- [87:09]
Victoria
Yeah, yeah. And I think her and Juju share that similarity. I think we exist in a different context in women's basketball now, where I don't think arise is ever going to feel as organic as that anymore because there are just so many more resources put behind it. I think there's so many more brands that understand the. The benefits of investing in the big stars in women's basketball. So I just don't think that type of thing can ever happen again. It's almost like I talked about it on the POD last week, too, where it's almost like. Like, let's say a tsunami comes and ravages a whole city, Right. Even if after that there is an even bigger tsunami, it's not going to make the same impact because everything's already destroyed. Like, everything that was from, like, before is just inherently not the same anymore. Now, maybe that's not the best metaphor because, you know, I'm saying that.
- [87:59]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, yeah, that was pretty morbid, dude.
- [88:02]
Victoria
It's a little bit morbid. But, you know, whatever a positive tidal wave is, it just. It completely shifted the landscape, and I don't think that's ever going to be possible again. But it does sort of. It does benefit an athlete like Juju, and it does benefit, like, the people who come after her as well. Like, we might see in Aaliyah Chavez who just.
- [88:22]
J. Kyle Mann
I love her. I love her. I love her.
- [88:24]
Victoria
You know what's fascinating to me about that?
- [88:26]
J. Kyle Mann
What's that?
- [88:28]
Victoria
So there was a huge nil fight for her. Right. Like, I think really what it came down to was budget for, like, how Much schools were willing to put into her nil. Right. And Oklahoma ended up being willing to commit the most, I think lsu. Lsu, we're talking like the nil school, by the way. LSU was like, ah, you're a little bit too expensive. Sorry, we gotta duck out of this one. Like Texas was in the mix. Also a big nil school, Texas Tech, kind of in the mix. Just because, like, that's where she's from. She's from Lubbock, Oklahoma. An SEC school just being willing to put in so much of their nil budget for a women's basketball player I think is fascinating.
- [89:08]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, no, it's. I'm very curious to see. I was talking to Sue Bird a couple years ago. She was on the pod. But I was just thinking about. Just like we were talking about, I believe, just the influx of cash into the women's game in general. Right. Specifically in college. And I feel like we're talking about how college is uniquely positioned for the women's game to really make waves financially. Right. Because in a weird way, it feels like the. The restrictions on going pro too early actually benefit the women's game because they. I don't. And we'll see what happens in the new CBA with the W and things like that. But like, you can make so much. There's no argument for a juju or for a page to come out early because they're going to make way more money at school. Right. Like, juju's gonna make M's, a lot of M's. He's gonna make more base. Whatever salary you want to call it in college that she is when in the W. And we'll see how the salaries change. But I am curious about how this arms race is going to continue to grow and does it even have an incentive for women's basketball players? Like how the guys are like, no, we wanted one and done. And we actually would. If you would let us come out of high school. If you would let us. I don't feel like the women's have that much of an incentive because they're actually making more money in college than they would in their professional league.
- [90:39]
Victoria
Well, I think. I think that applies to the top of the top. Right. Even when we talk about all this nil money that's coming in as well. I think that, you know, an Aliyev Chavez, or if juju was in this recruiting class is definitely somebody who can command those dollars. But for everybody else, they're still competing with like football, they're still competing with. With men's Basketball as well, to get those deal. But maybe to your point, if, as you know, a college program, you're looking at, you know, like the future of your investments, knowing that a woman's basketball player is going to be there for four years versus a men's basketball player being only only there for one year, maybe you're thinking, oh, you know what, let's actually just invest in the person who's actually going to be here long term. So I could see that just kind of having like a positive feedback loop effect too. But I do think that it really, it applies to the biggest stars. But then in some ways it actually kind of doesn't because like, I think that Juju is going to get a lot of money endorsement wise, whether she's in the WNBA or whether she's in college. Maybe it's not a big enough difference for her to want to jump. And I think that's kind of the point you're making. And I think it's great for college sports. I think it's, I mean, it kind of allows women's basketball to exist in this sort of sweet spot where like the rest of the college, college sports world is shifting so much and people are feeling like it's become a little bit too professionalized while still not really having like professional rules and standards and salary caps and contracts and all that stuff in place. Yet. Women's basketball is in this sweet spot where it's definitely benefiting from all that stuff. But because you have the four years, you still have the pageantry of college basketball, the identities and the fans being able to make all those connections and stuff. Right? So I think it's obvious it's a good thing. It's a good thing. And you also have to consider that like, salaries are definitely going to go up. I see salaries probably going up like 3, 3 to 4 times. 3 to 4x. Like in this new CBA that's still not going to be generational. I'm going to have like, fuck you, I don't need a college education money. You know, it's, it's great, it's going to be good money, but it's not going to be like, I don't want to, like, you know, like, it's not the same as like the NBA where you make so much money on your rookie contract. If you invest it well, it's never going to matter what your education was.
- [92:48]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, now it's W money is like, I mean, high level W money. Right now it's like, oh man, I got a really good Job. This is cool, you know, Right?
- [92:59]
Victoria
Yeah.
- [92:59]
J. Kyle Mann
I never thought that I'd get here at this age, but, like, we're here.
- [93:03]
Victoria
Like, the current max is 250. I think they could get it up to a mil, sure.
- [93:08]
J. Kyle Mann
But even that, man, that's a vet minimum in the. In the.
- [93:10]
Victoria
That's what I'm saying. It's like, that's gonna take a minute.
- [93:12]
J. Kyle Mann
It's going to take a minute for. And I said, we have Monica McNutt on over the summer, and I posed a question to her just about the W. Like, the W is what, 30, almost 30 years in. In existence, right? Yeah, 28. If you look at the, like, how much the W is advanced relative to its NBA counterpart at the same time. And it's. And I know there's a different, like, it's a different media landscape and all these things, but if you look at how the W advanced in 28 years versus how the NBA advanced in 28 years, like, the W is on a fast track right now. Like, I don't know what the W is going to be, but it's. I do feel like that hasn't been being said enough, that 28 years in for a league and having this level of success is pretty good.
- [94:03]
Victoria
I think that it's kind of in. It's like people. People call it like the Bird Magic era with Caitlin and Angel. Right. And I think it's. I think it's about, like, I'm a little over blown.
- [94:14]
J. Kyle Mann
I think.
- [94:14]
Victoria
I think it is, too. I think it's 10 years behind that. I think Caitlyn is almost like a Pete Maravich type of character who came in, like, from college basketball and, you know, brought in this fan base and, you know, I mean, Pete didn't.
- [94:27]
J. Kyle Mann
And also, I got to say this. I do have to say this, though, also from the Angel Reese side. I think Angel Reese has to be a little bit better to be the Magic Johnson of this equation. I just, I. I want to see what she does this season.
- [94:38]
Victoria
Me too. Me too.
- [94:39]
J. Kyle Mann
She looks good, but I don't think her game is good enough to warrant that comparison.
- [94:45]
Victoria
Yeah, well, it's also. It's a tough comparison with Caitlyn. Right? Like that. That's. That's what makes it the most difficult.
- [94:50]
J. Kyle Mann
Because also I don't like the comparisons of, like, Larry Bird and Magic just because one is black and one is white. I feel like we. We really shoehorn that a lot. Yeah, you know?
- [94:59]
Victoria
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And it plays into a narrative that I think everybody should be trying to get away from, if anything. Yeah, yeah. I think angel is. I think she's excellent. I think she's really good. She's a great defender. I think that, you know, she looked great, unrivaled, especially towards the end. I'm curious to see what kind of season that she has. She would have been the rookie of the year. She would have been one of the better rookies of the year in recent memory if not for this generational talent that came in that she is now kind of getting compared to for the rest of her life. Right. Like, it's just kind of even. She beat who she beat, who she did beat who she did beat. But it's kind of interesting, like, because there's one thing. One thing I think about with juju, too, is we're in a different place with women's basketball now, where every time juju has a good game or a bad game, there are going to be people on social media either comparing her to Caitlin Clark, denigrating her or saying, wow, she's better than Caitlin Clark. And I think that for somebody who is 19 years old, I don't think women's basketball has ever seen somebody who actually has to live in the shadow of somebody else's greatness, you know, like, this is a first, at least in. At least on a mainstream level.
- [96:10]
J. Kyle Mann
On a mainstream level. Okay. Because I could think of a couple, like, I know you can think of a couple examples, like, you know, from the real times. Right.
- [96:17]
Victoria
Like, but for. For it to really genuinely be part of somebody's public narrative. Like. Like, they.
- [96:23]
J. Kyle Mann
Like Candace Parker wasn't like, she did live under the. I feel like Candace Parker did live under the shadows. Lisa Leslie. But, like, it wasn't outright, like, said. Right. It was just like, oh, okay, let's see what she does.
- [96:33]
Victoria
Yeah.
- [96:37]
J. Kyle Mann
But I'm sorry. You were making a point. I apologize.
- [96:41]
Victoria
That's kind of it. Like, it's just. It's just she. They live in connection, narrative wise. Even though one is four years younger. They've never played against each other. They won't play against each other for years. There's no, like, there. I guess there's a conference connection now that USC is in the Big Ten. There's no reason. I know. I don't. That's part of the professionalization of all this stuff, too, is like, as soon as the money came in, they were like, you know what we're doing next? Westward expansion.
- [97:10]
J. Kyle Mann
It would be like, if. It would be like if. To your point of that, it would be like if if the LeBron, like, Steph rivalry, like, happened way too early, like, in this. Right? Because, like, I don't know. It's. It's. It'll. It's. That rivalry is. Is. Is. Is non existent. There is the argument, though, that, like, with. With W and how they are right now is this too. We talk about the professionalization of the W. Like, a lot of this stuff might be a little bit more too manufactured than. At least there's an argument out there. I don't necessarily believe that because I do think there's a rabid fan base for the W, but there is that argument that, you know, a lot of these stars are becoming, and I'll put this in air quote, manufactured as opposed to, like, happening for happening organically in the way that it.
- [97:59]
Victoria
I don't think the media allows things to happen organically in the WNBA as much as they should. I think that's part of it, and I think that's part of why there was kind of a disconnect with, like, how much fans connected to Caitlyn versus the media at first. And I think you saw it with, like, the way that Angel Reese was, like, shoehorned in as a rival. I think I felt like there was almost like, this desperation to create a narrative that came from, I think, a place of insecurity in a lot of ways, like, just needing to hang on to this special thing that happened in hopes that it catapults the rest of the league into a new stratosphere. Now, look, that happened anyway, but I think that we kind of. I also think. I don't think it's like, fully an old double WNBA media thing. It's also, like, people like myself who are new into it, kind of taking frameworks that we understand from the NBA world and trying to impose them onto the wnba, which is where you get, like, the bird magic stuff. Like, part of that is trying to create a reference point for new fans, which I think is important. Like, I don't feel bad about making NBA WNBA comparisons because I just think that that's a really.
- [99:09]
J. Kyle Mann
What about the WNBA comparisons of, like, every time. Like, every time Sabrina does something, like, compared to a man. Like, she's compared to Steph, right? Like, the first thing that when she hit the shot in the finals, it's Minnesota. The first thing that we heard was the Steph comparisons. Are we here? And it goes back to a reference point, but also, like, I feel like that shields, you know, women from, you know, their own autonomy that they deserve.
- [99:38]
Victoria
On some level, it's a failure of creativity, I think.
- [99:41]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah.
- [99:42]
Victoria
Yeah. I think it's a mix of both. Right. I think if you're a new fan and like you've been watching the NBA for a decade, it's really natural for you to come in and that be your frame of reference. But at the same time. Yeah. I think we also kind of just need to get better at figuring out how to write and cover women's athletes without needing to lean on those crutches as well. And I think that we will as well. I think that, like, we have. But in the meantime, I think that leaning on that kind of takes away from the ability to just kind of let things manufact, like develop as they are, you know?
- [100:23]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah. No, we don't know how to organically do anything anymore. We have to, like, will it to happen.
- [100:27]
Victoria
Yeah, I have to ask ChatGPT about everything.
- [100:29]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, that's true. I don't even know how to use that thing. But anyways, it was a blast having you on. We are going to have Siri on again in the. We had to just talk about juju for 30 minutes. But we're gonna have you on in a few weeks to. We're gonna do a home at home, right. Preview.
- [100:47]
Victoria
Yeah.
- [100:48]
J. Kyle Mann
Real ones and then.
- [100:49]
Victoria
Yeah.
- [100:49]
J. Kyle Mann
WNBA show, right? Yeah, we're gonna preview the WNBA season. All right, that's. That sounds good. All right, cool.
- [100:59]
Rasheed Wallace
Foreign.
- [101:06]
J. Kyle Mann
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