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Redraft Speedrun: Revisiting the Top Fives of the Past Five Drafts | Group Chat
01:33:32
Justin, Rob, and J. Kyle Mann redraft who would be the top five picks in the past five drafts.
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- [00:00]
A
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- [00:28]
B
Protein is now at Starbucks and it's never tasted so good. You can add protein cold foam to your favorite drink or try one of our new protein lattes or Matcha. Try it today at Starbucks. Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varier and joining me, Rob Mahoney. J. Kyle, man, a lot of action to get to today. We're doing the Redraft speed run. We're doing five drafts, going through the top five picks. So we don't have a lot of time for banter. Unless, Rob, you want to say something hilarious before we get started here?
- [01:20]
A
I got absolutely nothing. I think we should just jump straight into it.
- [01:23]
B
Well, people have been clamoring for an accounting of the mid off. I will, I will say okay. And I did crunch some numbers here. Do you have any idea of where we are right now in terms of like the game break?
- [01:36]
A
I think it's very close. We should clarify. For those not familiar the mid off, Justin and I have made a bet. What was, what was the orig. The origin date of the bet, Justin?
- [01:45]
B
January 14th.
- [01:47]
A
Who would have the better record from January 14th to the end of the season? I picked the Phoenix Suns. You picked the Portland Trailblazers. Of course you did. I believe the Suns are up by like half a game to one game.
- [01:58]
B
It's close, but right now they are exactly tied.
- [02:02]
A
Look at that.
- [02:03]
B
15 and 14, both teams with the Blazers having a schedule that might as well be like a high school, like AAA sort of thing. So I'm feeling pretty good right now.
- [02:13]
A
Well, do you want to double down?
- [02:16]
C
I'm on the line here.
- [02:17]
A
I. I have.
- [02:18]
B
That's the thing. There really aren't any stakes because Rob historically would be very reluctant to do anything in order to do that. Right. Like you didn't want to wear costumes. You don't wear costumes for other podcasts, right?
- [02:32]
A
I would never do such a thing. It depends on what the costume is,
- [02:36]
B
you know, so Kyle and the long term group Chat listener would know that Rob would refuse to wear anything. Like we did the live show with the Pacers jerseys and he finally Conceded to do that we wanted. I think the Celtics built. I was like, oh, you should wear a leprechaun costume.
- [02:52]
A
Well, that's offensive to my culture. I'm not a caricature.
- [02:57]
B
But Rob just refuses to wear anything, I think, for Halloween. No dressing up, right? And then I opened my Instagram the other day, and I'm like, oh, there's Rob dressed like fucking Doozy Howser. Doogie Howser.
- [03:09]
C
Yeah, Doozy Howser.
- [03:10]
A
Were you.
- [03:11]
C
Were you at the. At the. At Conor's video about Irish Zionism? Mahoney. Were you like, yeah,
- [03:19]
A
I'm stepping far away from all that one. You know, I think it's just about how you asked me, Justin, you know, you never came to me and said, hey, Rob, would you. Would you be willing to consider doing this? It was just unbelievable. You tried to.
- [03:33]
B
You're so full of shit.
- [03:36]
C
God, we need a therapist.
- [03:38]
A
I mean, we perpetually do need a therapist on this podcast, but what you're nailing down is one. I'm not a Jersey guy. I don't know how any adult man could be a Jersey guy. But also, if you are, I guess we salute you.
- [03:50]
C
You guys balked at the Jersey thing. I was like, I wear a T shirt jersey of a certain if I like a certain if it's on sale. An amusing T shirt jersey.
- [03:57]
B
No problem.
- [03:58]
C
Sure, that. But you guys both thought that was ridiculous.
- [04:01]
A
It's just not happening for me personally, nor is Halloween. And so the ideas you were bringing up JV are just, like, not in my wheelhouse.
- [04:07]
B
Huh?
- [04:08]
A
That's me to be a fake doctor on this podcast. I will do it.
- [04:12]
B
Okay. I didn't realize there still needs levels. We need.
- [04:15]
C
We need, like, a meal or something or a bottle of wine or whatever it is, or, you know, gardening equipment for Justin or, you know, I don't know.
- [04:23]
B
Yeah, I still think the costumes are the way to go. I just didn't realize they were on the table, Rob.
- [04:29]
A
I think they can be on the table, but how about. What if we change it? If the Blazers win, I will come and finish your bathroom renovation. And if the Suns win, you have to come here and renovate my bathroom.
- [04:40]
B
Oh, that's. That's. I would.
- [04:41]
C
Jesus.
- [04:45]
B
Although I have to say, I hit the point the other day where I was like, maybe I'm in too deep. This tends to happen with DIYers, where it's like, you feel the rush of it. You go into it, and then all of a sudden, you start tacking things to the wall, and I'm like, oh, I might ruin a house, but we'll blow past that. I got all next week to figure this out.
- [05:02]
A
I believe in you wholeheartedly. Everyone runs into the wall, but you're gonna sprint straight through it, out the other side, be tiling up a storm. I completely believe in you.
- [05:10]
B
That's good. All right, well, speaking of running, let's get to our speed run here. Go through all of the past five drafts we did this last year. So we've talked about a lot of these, but I feel like things have fluctuated even in the year since. Let's start with 20, 21, the farthest away, which is a draft. I feel like we have redraft at least the top five to 10.
- [05:30]
A
Yeah.
- [05:31]
B
Maybe 30 different times because it's fluctuated so much. I was certain that we would finally have some solved. Who would go number one in this draft? Cade Cunningham. Right. Considering the season that he's had. But then almost like the. The gods just took it away because now we have to worry about his lung capacity collapsed. Lum. We'll see if he'll finish. He finishes out the season, we'll see if he plays in the playoffs. But obviously a tough spot for him and Detroit Rob.
- [05:56]
A
Yeah, I mean, it's off the top. Just shit news for one of the season's defining players. Cade. Cade. And the Pistons have been just one of the most reliable and bankable things going all season long. I know they've swooned a little bit of late, but I would have loved to see him have a chance to, like, run through the tape, sprint into the playoffs, have a chance to prove, you know, exactly who the Pistons have been to dispel some of the doubt as far as what their playoff hopes would be. Now everything feels like it's up in the air, starting with just his availability over these next couple weeks to end the regular season. And then even when he comes back, like, this is not a normal injury rehab situation. It is a health issue. And so when he comes back, if he comes back, there's just, like, a lot of red tape around things like that. There's a lot of lingering concern. And for a player like Cade, who both absorbs and dishes out a lot of body blows, what does this mean for him as. As a playoff performer right now? It's. It's just. I hate that we have to consider this stuff, because I would have loved to see him get a chance to prove it on his own terms.
- [06:54]
C
You hit it. I mean, is this. This. Everything that I read this morning was this is like a dangerous injury, especially when you consider any, you know you're going to get. You're going to take some bumps in a professional sport, especially in the NBA. But like the way that Cade in particular plays, this seems very problematic because there. It's apparently pressure sensitive to. To wherever the the issue is. So that. That seems extremely worrisome. So I mean the award stuff is all. It's going to just uncork and annoying. It has to go. I mean it's pretty much universal, universal painting universal disapproval for that. So I feel comfortable that that'll go away. I think they should just pivot right now. I would. I was saying to you all, I was like, I don'. Set in stone in a way that we can't change it. I think they should just abolish it right now mid season because it's so stupid. And we're going to have to have conversations for decades about like why there's a big asterisk next to this. But you know, awards aside, it seems concerning for K just on a health, you know, even basketball even aside like it seems concerning.
- [07:51]
A
And that's the 65 limit. 65 game limit. You're talking about Kyle.
- [07:55]
B
Yes. So he is currently at 61 games which is particularly cruel. Felt like he was going to get there. Just he could even shut down the last two or three weeks. He probably would have gotten there. It's really a bummer just because it seemed like he was in the mix for first team all NBA. We'll see if he would have inevitably gotten there if he did qualify for it. But like I feel like he's the type of player who might not even like get to that point in the rest of his career. There's a huge accomplishment. And to Kyle's point, like when we look back on players careers, we look at that big bold number out there saying like he made this many all NBAs versus this guy. The all Stars, the awards, the. This stuff kind of matters, especially as it accumulates. So that's one thing Rob. The other thing is just in the standings. If you look at Detroit right now, obviously it's been struggling of late. The margins have slimmed. Three and a half games up on the Celtics, a team that looks better day by day. Tatum certainly looks better. He played really well last night, at least shooting the ball much better. So I don't feel comfortable if I'm the Pistons overall getting that one seat at this point, which is important because the east seems like so jumbled together. Maybe having home court might lead the Celtics to the finals in a way that, like, if Detroit had that game seven, they wouldn't have.
- [09:05]
A
Yeah. I mean, the security of home court advantage all throughout the Eastern Conference bracket, I think would have been nice. A nice little security blanket for the Pistons at this point. They could lose it to the Celtics, they could lose it to the Knicks, frankly, who are a little further back, but have a much easier schedule than Boston the rest of the way. The fact that these things are even in play just kind of defies the logic of who we know the Pistons to have been over the last couple months in particular. Like, they've just had such a secure lead. I didn't think we'd be talking about this, but here we are, and here the Pistons are, and they have to reckon with a new reality on the court. The kind of like, indefinite, fuzzy timetable of not knowing when their go to score and shooter and creator will come back into the fold. This is just a team that like, isn't really equipped to deal with this particular injury among all others. And so what it means for them, I mean, it could be catastrophic potentially. We can only hope that Kate will be back sooner than later. But this is not the thing you want to or can rush.
- [10:01]
C
Yeah. I mean, speaking of the Celtics, I mean, you know, for. For I, for one, you know, it's nice to see something go right for Celtics fans, you know, for them to get a break. No, I mean, it's. This isn't. This isn't like the Celtics where you can do the Ewing theory thing and remove your. Your best player. And number one, your. Your developmental system, your culture, your everything, your style of play can sort of sustain something like that. Granted, having a Jaylen Brown, they don't have a Jalen Brown. They don't have another place to go. You know, Duran has come a long way, but he hasn't come that far. So. And you know, and then the J. Nivi thing, it's just a lot of paths that have kind of FR off and not materialized. You're seeing that in this moment where maybe the Herder thing, if they had like, targeted somebody else with a little more creative upside. Kobe White, somebody like that. I don't know. It makes you think a lot about what. What they could have done at the deadline. But losing Cade is just catastrophic if. If it ends up being the case in the playoffs.
- [10:51]
B
He means so much to their offense and like, the darkest timeline is they end up one or two, and then there are a couple hot teams in the back half in the play in mix that could be pretty fearsome in a first round even. We could be looking at like a Derrick Rose is out for the Bulls and all of a sudden the Drew Holiday Sixers come and knock you out because the Hornets playing incredible basketball. If the Sixers ever get healthy, we'll sue. You haven't seen Joel Embiid in so long, it feels like they lose a new guy every day at this point. Hawks though, 11 straight. Like it's not going to be easy if you don't have someone who is the central component to everything you do offensively that's like this is how dire this is.
- [11:28]
A
I think there are even more trickle down effects than that because Cade, in addition to being the element that drives their entire offense, the kind of playmaker who helps them compensate for not having a lot of shooting on the floor, he's also one of these increasingly rare stars who's a very credible defender and I think does a great job bodying and providing resistance and most importantly is big out there in terms of how he can disrupt opponents. And when you move away from Cade because he's no longer in the lineup, it's like, okay, Dennis Jenkins, you have to play a lot now. And then behind him, Marcus Sasser, you have to step up and play a lot now. And they just are suddenly losing this kind of subtly crucial element of their identity, which is as this big, physical, bruising team at the point of attack. Often you have a Sar Thompson, sure cross matching, but somewhere on the floor there's going to be some smaller guard you can sort of pick up.
- [12:17]
B
All right, so getting back to the redraft though, do we all have Cade 1? No debate.
- [12:22]
A
I think it has to be.
- [12:24]
B
Yeah, Kyle had him two. Okay, two is where it gets, I think pretty interesting because I thought we'd had this lockdown. It had been like a Mobley vs. Cade thing for a while, but now two seems pretty shaky to the point where like I had Mobley at 2. Do I feel a hundred percent bulletproof about that? Not so much, because Jalen Johnson as we're recording this playing out of his mind, the Hawks playing out of their mind. And it does get you into that zone where it's like Mobley has shown so much already. Perhaps we're underrating him at this point because he has taken one of those half step back offensively that he tends to do. Still want a defensive player of the year. I still think long term, if we're buying from this point forward, which is how I did it, I would still Go with him figuring that stuff out and then bringing it all together over a Johnson or some of these other guys. But Rob, where'd you net out at two?
- [13:10]
A
Yeah, so I, I had Mobley number one. When we did this last year, this was in the throes of just like a rapturous cav season. He was going to go on to win defensive player of the year. All of that felt right to me. And then when I was doing the exercise this year, not only did Kate end up at number one, I end up with Scotty Barnes at number two, who I think has closed the gap enough on Mobley defensively having an all defense season in his own right that I can kind of see what for Scotty Barnes there's always like kind of a bit of an awkwardness to his offensive game. How does he fit? How do you want to use him? How, like, how can he be best deployed and where does his skill set make the most sense? I'm kind of more willing to entertain all of those quandaries if he's going to be this level of a defender and I'm going to take those trade offs like by a very slim margin over some of what you may or may not get from Evan Mobley offensively on a daily basis. Where I want to note for as you know, very disappointed as we all are in Evan Mobley and you know, shake our fingers at him on a recurring basis. He's still an all defense caliber player putting up 18 a game. It's not like he's a nothing on offense. I just think that Barnes right now is maybe giving you something a little more dynamic than him.
- [14:23]
C
Yeah, for me this has shifted a lot in the last, you know, year and a half. I was extremely high on Mobley. I was thinking he could, he had a chance to be and I mean he still is, I, I guess, you know, one of the elite, you know, defensive anchors. Switchable. The verse, the versatility is crazy. It's just the offense. I feel like the upside conversation about him has really shifted from optimistic to nauseated, I think in the past year in a way that when you weigh them against each other, like Rob was alluding to with Barnes, I. The Jalen Johnson part of this is interesting for me also because I'm just like in a playoff setting. I really, really value problem solving and rim pressure and like versatility. And it's not like Jalen is some zero defender. I mean, he's not on Barnes and Mobley's level. I think he has an interesting case at 2 I still in my list though, I have Barnes too. So that's, that's, that's where I'll sit.
- [15:14]
B
And for you guys is it feel more recency bias there where you've seen Barnes pop this year, where you've seen Mobley back? Because I just look at the total body of work, especially offensively and Mobley last season offensively is light years better offensively than any one season that Barnes has had practically since he popped as a rookie. Probably like at this point he has shown that he is an awesome defensive destructor, probably one of the five best in the league. Can't deny that. But offensively he's kind of just like in the mix there. Whereas I feel like even at his lowest point, Mobley still flashes the potential to be an impact offensive center. We'll see like long term, like I still think he can unlock like as a pick and roll big and like he clearly has a shot. It's just not that reliable. A lot of his knocks offensively tend to be with approach and perhaps that's just hardwired into his system. Not aggressive enough. Doesn't use his, his huge body in the way that he probably should. But I feel like it's like right there and we've seen instances where he's at the very least like gotten progress unlocking that. Whereas with Barnes, I kind of just think he is who he is. He's a good defender, good playmaker, good feel. I don't know if he ever gets to the level of even Mobley offensively.
- [16:21]
A
I think where I would push back is some on just like the, the qualifying adjectives there of like, I think, I think Barnes is like a great defender. Has an argument as one of the most disruptive defenders in the entire league this season and in particular the way in which he's been able to switch and disrupt even some of the assignments that he gets in Toronto, I think just like put him in a pretty unique class of player. And the range of guys he can credibly guard is so wide that the combination of that plus I think the playmaking is really the separating skill. If you want to talk about their offense as, as a finisher inside. Like yeah, he's clever enough, he's skilled enough. There's still a little bit of clunkiness in terms of like how who you want to play him with given the fact that Barnes like still really isn't a credible long range threat. But I trust his ability to kind of navigate in space because of that playmaking, because of the ability to connect some dots. And Mobley, I think you're right that he's probably better suited long term as a center, but that hasn't fully culminated yet. And there's still so many times of the Cavs where they feel more comfortable with Jared Allen on the floor. And so if you're thinking about, like, a redraft as a project and trying to figure out who these guys are going to be five years from now, I still don't really know how. How absolutely rock solid an Evan Mobley at the 5 lineup is over a long enough timetable. Like, he's. He still can get bodied out. He still can get, like, boxed out pretty aggressively where you want him to be better on the boards, and he just kind of isn't. And so you have your rim protector for sure, but do you have all of the other supplementary skills you want in a five in Evan Mobley? And I think there are enough question marks that I think the Scotty Barnes part of it at least enters the conversation.
- [18:02]
C
Yeah, this is tough for me in particular, as somebody who's thinking about these things, trying to project guys. I mean, it's relevant to me right now, watching college guys, because I do run up against players where I'm like, a lot of talent, a lot of tools. A lot of tools. But whenever you're watching, like, Mobley. Jesus Christ. Work on that one.
- [18:26]
A
No, please don't.
- [18:28]
C
I'm going to. Just because you said that, like, how often do guys grow out of. Because the aggressiveness is the thing that sort of fertilizes the. The development and pushes it forward. And it makes me worry a little bit about even if Mobley ends up being a pretty good player and he levels up maybe a little bit. How often do guys grow out of that? It's like that that thing is sort of the seedling that pushes development. I'm just. I worry about Mobley for that reason, because I just don't feel like there are a. Examples of guys changing who they are in terms of their aggressiveness like that.
- [19:01]
A
Yeah, I think especially because he kind of set that standard for himself. We. We run into this trap with players where we get really excited about what they can do, and then we get disappointed when they don't meet it, and then we hold it against them. But he came out and was like, I want to be a more actualized, aggressive offensive player. That is my personal goal for this season. And he just hasn't been that. Like, he. Not only has he not been that, I don't think he's really taken any meaningful step in that direction. And so the fact that it was a point of emphasis and it still hasn't manifested that is a little concerning to me.
- [19:33]
B
I kind of bunched them together. I almost see them as like similar in terms of their value proposition. But I've just seen more from Mobley, so it's hard to like really read into Barnes. And so I had Barnes at 4 here I had Johnson at 3. Partly probably because I've just been so enamored with this 11 game win streak that the Hawks are on February 22nd is the last time that the Atlanta Hawks lost a game. That's back when I still had respect for Rob and his decisions.
- [20:01]
A
Was it though?
- [20:02]
B
Probably not. But I mean it's just the flip side of there where the offense is just like he's popped in a way I would say in terms of like this season. Overall, I think Johnson has had the best season of the three. Obviously the defensive attention waxes and wanes. I do wonder, especially as he scales up and gets more responsibility, how much he'll be able to really do that because he hasn't probably played defense in like four months at this point. But clearly the type of offensive creator who's been unlocked with Trey Young being out of there that has all these playmaking skills and it's just like the exact type of big wing that you would want to have. And so that's partly how I was thinking about this because you could look at a redraft in certain ways. Like I didn't really think about the teams who were drafting in certain slots. We're kind of just doing this as best five, if only because a lot of these teams drafting at this point were just raised to the dirt and then just like hoping to get the top pick anyway. But if I'm going from this point forward, Johnson's offensive pop I think makes the difference over especially someone like Barnes.
- [21:01]
A
For me, I have, I have no real argument against putting Jalen Johnson almost as high on this list as you would like to. I think Kate is put it like understandably ascended into a different class as an all NBA guy. But I think Jalen has a credible case to be made over Mobley. I think he certainly has a credible case to be made over Barnes.
- [21:21]
B
Where do you have him?
- [21:22]
A
I. I have him just next in line at 4, but he's already hurdled so many people to get to this point that it would not shock me if we do yet another 20, 21 redraft next year if he's just even higher on this list. He just seems like one of these players who not only defies our expectations, but I think defies any reasonable blueprint that you would put on a player like him. Like, how. How could you have looked at Jalen Johnson even a year or two ago and thought this could be one of the best playmaking wings in the league, not just a guy who is participating and drafting off of, you know, the. The flow and the creation of someone like Trae Young, but is instigating it, who is like, actively generating offense in a way that very few wings in the league can. I've just been blown away and I love everything he does, and you won't hear me say a bad word about him, so I can't even argue with you.
- [22:11]
C
Yeah, it was a. It was a. A delayed start. I think that's a really key part of the conversation about Jalen because, you know, he was a. He didn't get the car keys investment thrown to him as quickly as Mobley and Barnes. They just throw you out there when they invest that kind of money in it. And I think there was a little bit of a slow realization tray being there. The Hawks kind of pivoting away from we have something. We don't have something. Oh, we do have something. With Jalen, it was just, I think that caused a delay in the conversation for him. Who do you guys think the leading scorer is from this class? I just sorted this and I was a little surprised. Maybe I shouldn't have been surprised. But who has scored the most points from the 2021 draft?
- [22:49]
A
Total points?
- [22:50]
C
You're talking about total points?
- [22:52]
B
Shen Goon.
- [22:53]
A
Yeah, maybe Shengun would be my guess too.
- [22:56]
C
The list I'm looking at here says with 6,534 points, Jalen Green is the leading score for.
- [23:04]
B
Of course. So he's your number five is what you're saying?
- [23:07]
C
No, just pretty. Pretty shocking. But this class, when you reorder it ended up being better, I think, than people even thought it was going to be, honestly, with. With some serious movement.
- [23:16]
B
Yeah, well, 5 is interesting too. I did give it to Shen Gu. Not a default. I mean, he's just had already so much success. Even though every time I watch the Rockets, I just want to stab things into my eyeballs. Especially when he's throwing the ball away just all over the place. And the defense is just kind of definitely taking a step back this year. It's just. It's tough because when he's made an all star team, I think he has the potential to make more, if only at like a certain level. Like probably tops off as like a good player on an above average team. That's like making the playoffs and you're feisty and all this other stuff. But like the drop off between him and the Franzes and the Trey Murphy's I think considerable enough that I put him at five.
- [23:51]
A
I went Franz, of course you did. I mean I would. Yeah, I, I just think with like the Shangoon conversation the last couple months, look, it hasn't been great. I think we can call it what it is. The defense not only has taken the kind of spill you mentioned, Justin, but he's just had the kind of weird few months where I constantly feel him bumping up against the outer limits of what he can do. And it kind of recontextualizes everything we've been hoping for. If you're thinking about him as a redrafted prospect, it's like, what if this is just kind of who he's going to be? What if the three point shooting is never stable? What if the turnovers are always a problem? What if as you mentioned, him guiding your offense can only take it to a certain level of like maybe slightly above mediocrity? I think Franz has a little bit more upside than that. And so right now I think they're probably pretty close. I would give the edge to Shangoon, but in terms of who will ultimately be the better player, I think I would be a little surprised if Franz is not.
- [24:51]
C
There's an interesting. We enter into an interesting territory here where, and it happens a lot with like downhill force guys who can, like not even hypothetically. These are people, players that can pass the ball, but they, they have downhill rim pressure as the kind of central premise of what they do. But they're the. The pressure release has never quite evolved. The efficiencies kind of. You run up against the wall. You could talk yourself into it, but it's never quite efficient to, enough to, to really satisfy. And I think it kind of like the Randalls, the Shingoons, the Paolos, you know those types of players that you're like, they, they are implied primary options. It's just like we're going to play this guy as the center of thing. And then over time you just, I think you enter into a conversation where you're like, is a more efficient player like a Trey Murphy, a Franz? Like, like, is that a player that you're more likely to move forward with? Like, which would you rather have? I mean like the Derek White Trey Young thing was like the classic example of this. I'm like, you know, Derek White, you brought up be the primary that Trey, what is it that.
- [25:52]
B
Yeah, that's your thing you're talking about. It's like something like.
- [25:56]
C
Well, no, I mean that scientists have been study because everybody laughed about it at the time. But I ended up being like, I think that that exposed something to me where I was like, that's a real thing that like you just get intoxicated by a guy having primary upside and then you hit that wall and you're like, I'd rather have Derek White because I can win with him. I need to find another primary, but I'd rather have the piece that can move me forward.
- [26:15]
B
I think this is kind of a philosophical question with this exercise and perhaps like team building from like the five spot in the draft to begin with. If you were to tell someone without giving them names, would you rather like a three time all star or a guy who probably fits best as a number two on a three or three on a very good team? I think it really comes down to what you need in the given moment because I don't disag that Franz melds into so many different types of teams in a way that Shen Goon probably doesn't. He needs a very specific style in order to compensate, especially for him defensively. The fact that he took such a big step defensively after seeming like he had solved some of those issues last year is pretty discouraging. Franz, it's just like, you know, you could also throw in like the injury stuff this year. I think that's becoming a mounting concern is it's really two seasons at this point. The shooting shot better this year, but obviously, let's see, in the totality, I thought Suggs had solved the shooting and all of a sudden Suggs can't shoot anymore. So I don't disagree. Like, if you want a guy in your mix, if you have a star, I'll probably go Franz. But if I want to start from scratch, I'd probably lean Shen good at this point.
- [27:18]
A
Yeah, I think both Franz and Paolo, to be honest, have been done a slight disservice in the public consciousness as far as like how adaptable and useful they are to a wide variety of teams just by the sheer fact that they may not be all that compatible together. And we're going to have to see when Franz eventually comes back how this all snaps into place again. We're just waiting to see if that can ever, ever work. But separately, like, I think Franz not only makes sense as the second best player on, on a really good team potentially that has a slightly different build, but also one who when you go to your second unit, can drive offense, who can be a primary on the ball, who can kind of like over the course of a game, not just a season, not just between teams, slot into a bunch of different sub roles for you? Those are always like really exciting winning players to have and I think Shengoon has some of that. But it seems a little clunkier of late.
- [28:09]
B
I also feel like if we're just talking about player types, Trey Murphy might get drafted if only because every team has wanted to trade from. Every good team has said we need Trey Murphy over the past like two trade deadlines at this point. And so I wouldn't be surprised if people just reach there. So just also considering votes. I had Trey Murphy down here, I had Suggs, I had Giddy. Anybody else, I think those are the
- [28:31]
A
only ones to seriously consider. A lot of notable players from this draft, certainly a lot of good role players have, have kind of found their way. And I mean, as far as, you know, late starters go, is there any, is there any thought in your mind that like a Nima Keda could be a real factor five years down the line if he has more seasoning, more experience, if he proves to be, you know, if the Celtics go on a run this year and he is a starting level Eastern Conference finalist center, I mean, that's a hell of a thing for a guy like him given the way everything originated.
- [29:06]
B
Utah State's own Namias Keda. Oh yeah, might be showing up in our top 100 rankings. I voted for him.
- [29:12]
A
I think he deserves fair consideration for that.
- [29:15]
B
Yeah, it's a crazy come up. Do we try to shoehorn in a bunch of interesting guys at the end there? Who's to say? All right, why don't we take a quick break here because 2022 gets a little spicy. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. The tournament is here and on. FanDuel, it's time to dance. Right now, FanDuel is dropping bonus bets into everyone's account for the tournament. All you have to do is opt in to claim your bonus. Got an upset rolling with the one seed calling for chaos. However, you're playing the tourney, FanDuel is giving you a little extra to get in on the action from the very first tip. But don't wait. These bonus bets are only available for a limited time. FanDuel, it's time to dance 21 select states or 18 DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus. Best would expire seven days after receipt. Max bonus 500 unless otherwise specified. Restrictions apply. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling problem call 1-800- gambler call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut this episode is brought to you by Tommy Hilfiger. Here's what happens when west coast relaxation meets modern prep in Tommy Hilfiger's spring collection. Think light wash denim and new relaxed silhouettes paired with oversized trenches and chore coats with heritage inspired touches. Then take those rugby and polo shirts you love and elevate them with rich cable textures and new Tommy crests. And when you throw in easy breezy light layers in linen essentials, you've got laid back sophistication. Explore more@tommy.com all right, so 2022, I feel like it's fluctuated a little bit. Probably not as much as 2021, but I'm sitting here thinking about it completely different than I did last year. We got Chat, we got Jalen Williams, we got Paula, we got Duran. I'll be honest, I went chat number one.
- [31:18]
A
I'm not mad at it.
- [31:20]
B
Okay, who did you have?
- [31:21]
A
I have J.
- [31:22]
C
Nothing to apologize.
- [31:23]
B
Yeah, well I, I think even we can get into the Paulo part of this, but I Even think Chet vs J Dub is all of a sudden a pretty fascinating discussion, especially if we're drafting. From this point forward, J Dub have shown way more. He had many moments in game sevens of the finals throughout the playoffs. Perhaps he's a little bit diminished because he's been hurt all season. He's just out of sight, out of mind. Clearly the Thunder have been okay for the most part without him. I just look at it in terms of like player types. I just don't know how you find another Chet Holmgren. And despite the fact that he hasn't been gangbusters, he hasn't had the sort of breakout offensive performances, the 30 pointers every now and then that I kind of had been hoping for. And I think everyone is still expects him to have at some point. I just think like just the combination of rim protection and fluidity of movement and just like the feel and obviously the size, I just don't know where you're getting that elsewhere. And so I went Chad over J.
- [32:20]
C
I mean yeah, you have nothing to. You're, you're right Justin. Let me just say that. Hell yeah It's a two way sport, guys like for real like I did, I just, yeah, he was an all star. I mean it's not like he's been some like horrific slouch on offense. Almost 35% from 317 points. That's what they need him to do. And I think he's, he's integral to what they do. Like he, the scheme, versatility. I mean, was it December when we were talking about this? He's one of the best two way players in the world on a team that's the defending champs. I mean I just think that he's, he is invaluable and like you were saying that these types of players just don't come along very often. And I, I haven't won. I had him one then, I haven't won now. I haven't moved.
- [33:02]
A
I mean he's a singular kind of prospect and I mean I say prospect as if he's some intangible puff of smoke in the air. Like he's a real deal guy right now doing things that very few people on earth can. And the number of times I've had some version of the conversation this year of how many bigs could do X, Y and Z, how many players could do this thing that Wemby did. And the answer is kind of always like, well, check. Can kind of do a lot of those things. He checks a lot of those same boxes, not quite to the same levels as this guy or that, but in totality it's just a hell of a basketball player. And the rim protection combined with the shooting, combined with the ability to put the ball on the floor, even just some like the turnaround stuff that I think could be even more of a weapon for him over time from mid range. All of that's incredible. I just think J Dub, I haven't seen anything from J Dub this season to make me think the injuries are going to be any more of a lingering concern beyond this season to think that they're going to change the course of his career. And that guy is no slouch defensively either. Like that. He, you know, Jalen Williams is also an all defense caliber guy. He's also someone who can cross match, who can switch, who's so flexible in terms of the way the Thunder scheme and the way you apply him. And if he's going to do that and be an effective playmaker and historically be a very good shooter. I just like, I think that package is incredibly valuable and feels so secure to me in a way that even Chet's like, just ridiculous ceiling can't quite ward me off of.
- [34:25]
B
Yeah, hard to argue with that. Most of Jalen's injuries have been the hand thing that's been lingering. I know he has more of a hamstring thing these days, but you're right, it's just like this feels like a blip in an otherwise pretty remarkable career. So I think 1, 2, probably set for all of us in some order. 3 is where it gets, I think, pretty complicated.
- [34:43]
A
Is it?
- [34:45]
B
Well, I mean, you look at what Jalen Dern's doing at 22 years old and the potential for so much more, it feels like he's just kind of scratching the surface and also just getting more buff by the day. But I think we're at a point where Paulo has rebounded enough where I'm just looking about this again at player types, where I think Duran at his absolute peak, will probably be the best center in basketball. But I look at Paulo, I'm like, he has the potential to be one of the best players overall in basketball. And so if I'm still buying low and betting on that, I still think it's Paulo despite the fact that I fucking hate watching him play most nights. And I kind of think a lot of the sludginess and some of the complications offensively in Orlando are probably stem from him. Having said that, though, like, perhaps that's not totally his fault. There's a lot of blame to go around there. And so I. Apollo at three. I assume, Rob, that you also have Paulo at three.
- [35:40]
A
I do, for sure. And I love Jalen Duran. I think he's a wonderful player and reminds you constantly that he's 22 in the sense that he'll just like, try things in the middle of a game. Just like, hey, I'm gonna shoot a couple mid range jumpers in a row. Just because in a way that I. I kind of like seeing that push from him. I like the idea of all those things he could potentially add. I don't know that he will ever be the best center in the game.
- [36:03]
C
Like I was gonna say, it's a. This is a tough time.
- [36:07]
A
We, for starters, we just put Chet as either one or two on this list.
- [36:11]
B
Well, I guess I meant it more as like, best traditional. And the way that AD has become like a Stre 5 best of that class, that's how I see Dirk.
- [36:19]
A
Yeah, I, I think that's, that's a fair, like, distinction to make. And his skill set is a little bit more traditional and yet incredibly effective. Very applicable if you have any kind of playmaking presence and any kind of pick and roll presence, he's going to be immensely valuable for you. And him and Cade could just turn out to be one of the great two man games in history if both those guys stick around and play together for long enough. But Paolo I don't think can drop any further than three. He's, I mean, he's just 23 himself. He's still so effective. He's still in part kind of theoretical because we're waiting to see, you know, when is the efficiency really going to kick into high gear. But I don't know. The efficiency is like a little nag on a pretty incredible skill set for me. And I want to see him do more of this and more of that and get to the basket more like more consistently, which he's kind of started to do, which is nice. I think so much of it is just. I would like to see Paolo play at this point on a slightly more normal team. And the Orlando Magic have not been a very normal team over the last couple years. But as far as who he is, yeah, I mean, it's been, it's been a long, a long time coming. I'm still so impressed by who Paolo is currently and what he can do. Even with all the caveats, even with all the arguments and like hand wringing that constantly happens around him, there just aren't players of his size who can create in that capacity. And I'm willing to bet and bank on and hope for some of those supplementary playmaking skills. You were talking about, Kyle, in terms of how he ultimately plays out of that stuff.
- [37:43]
C
Yeah. I mean, you risk going too far. We've been, we've been pretty critical of Paulo, but I also think that you have to be very careful and be consistent about who you're going to penalize or reward based on their context. Because you know, Duran, not that Duran wouldn't thrive somewhere else if they're like you were saying, if there's somebody that can pass a basketball and throw a lob, he's going to look good and his defensive stuff is going to translate. But he has benefited a lot from playing with the type of player who, who suits him really well. It's like a big playmaker who can make those plays. And then Paolo, you know, you gotta, you just have to be fair about it because he has caused some of the issues because of the way that he is as a player, but also he had, it's made it a lot harder for him. And Cade, frankly went through that For a while. And it's amazing how things can shift and flip whenever. Whenever the context and the personnel can change. So I was just trying to think about teams across the league. Maybe have to sit down and think about it harder, about context. That would fit him better, I guess. You know, a more normal basketball team, I think would really change the way that we think about Paolo, honestly.
- [38:48]
B
Yeah, I know we're not doing, like, where the teams were slotted at this time, but it is fascinating to look back at the potential what if of this, where if Orlando had gotten Chet, for instance, in order to, like, unlock and kind of break up the glueiness of some of that offense, it would have been interesting. OkC ultimately getting J Dub again and then Houston getting Paulo. I don't know. Just like a weird, like, alternate timeline during going to sack even with. With Darren Fox. Maybe that's Jalen Durham learn learns how to shoot a little bit sooner.
- [39:23]
C
That might have been fun.
- [39:24]
A
I don't know.
- [39:25]
B
He could have gotten up and down with that team. Not the same sort of style, but, you know, would have been interesting. Five is where it gets really all over the place for me. I think you can go one of many directions.
- [39:37]
A
I went with Peyton Watson.
- [39:39]
B
I did, too. Fuck.
- [39:40]
A
I mean, welcome to the redraft of palooza. Peyton Watson.
- [39:43]
B
Yeah.
- [39:44]
A
Did not even consider him when we've gone through this exercise in the past. Like, he just seems so far away from even the guys we were considering at number five. And here he is, not only hurdled Christian Brown with incredible ease, but just surpassed so many of the other, like, like, interesting but largely theoretical players that we talk about in this, like, next in class sort of debate. Like, I just think Peyton Watson has. He's had such a great combination when he's been healthy this season of the pop of, like, star, like, moments and shot creation of just, like, hitting really difficult shots that only stars are given the latitude to even take. And also a role player level of discretion where he knows when to kind of fade to the background and when to play off of Yokich and when to play off of Murray. That combination is really rare. And if you have it in a package that's 6, 9, and a fucking pogo stick, like, yeah, sign me up for that in the draft any day of the week.
- [40:36]
C
Yeah, I mean, you're gonna hear me say something right now that you're rarely gonna hear from me, which is, talk your shit, Calvin Booth. You were right about that one. No, I mean, it's like the. The Juice we. I think we talked about it maybe a couple episodes, you know, on a given. On a given night. A guy who can sort of play the part of a primary score in bunches. And he's his energy speaking to sort of the drive that causes development. I mean, Peyton Watson's electric touches and his aggressiveness have really just blossomed for them, and it's been really fun to watch. I don't disagree with this at all.
- [41:10]
B
Yeah, I had him, too. I mean, just a classic four years away from being who he is, where he played, like, what, 12 to 13 minutes in college. And so it seems odd to be betting on potential at this point for some of these guys who have been the league already. Paolo feels he's been through, like, four different spin cycles of narratives. Yeah, but, like, Peyton Watson's really just starting to become who he is. Obviously got hurt, so we haven't seen him climb on to what Denver could become in the playoffs this year. But he could be anything, man. I think he could be, like an easy number two, number three sort of guy. If you're like the Lakers, for instance, I'd be trying to move heaven and earth in order to kind of shove him into your books and restrict your free agency this summer. And so I had him at 5. Did I think about other guys pretty long and hard? Yes, I did. I have Dyson Daniels down here. He would probably be the guy if not for Watson. We didn't even talk about, like, the Hawks. I mean, we kind of glo. Like, went by it pretty quickly there, like, Hawks are like, awesome.
- [42:06]
A
Now what the fuck is what happened?
- [42:08]
B
Can you pinpoint exactly what's going on?
- [42:10]
A
I don't know exactly. It feels like a couple of different things are kind of snapping into place for them. One, the clarity of not just the post trae young era, but the post trae young injury era, where they were just kind of like toggling between these version of versions of their team all year. Never quite settled. They never quite quite found it in. They were supposed to be a good defensive team and just, like, weren't for so long. I think they finally have settled into a version of themselves that makes sense. And some of that is just some of their lineups finally have the right balance of not just offense, defense, but, like, enough shooting, enough creation, enough flow, where it's not just like four wing players running around each other plus and Yeka Kongu, but guys who are actually building actions off of each other that are. That are taking what Nikhil Alexander Walker is doing and transitioning it into the next action where Jalen Johnson is back consistently and just like elevating everyone on the floor around him, there's something cohesive about it that just kind of makes more sense. I know that's easy to say in the midst of a double digit win streak, but you look up and down the rotation and it's like these are on most nights, eight and nine very credible NBA players and they're not being asked to do what Mo Gay was being asked to do early in the season or what like, you know, Corey Kispert was asked to do at times with the Wizards. It's like this, this feels like a reasonable role for everybody involved and suddenly they're performing like an actual basketball team.
- [43:31]
C
What a great position to be in for them where they can, they can push forward with this experimentation and trial and error and still have a top pick that they didn't, you know, that's not tied to what they're doing. It's pretty, I'd be feeling pretty good if I were in Atlanta fans.
- [43:44]
B
Yeah, what a nice little March story. Like a team that isn't trying to lose 15 straight games on all of a sudden has something to play for. Obviously the schedule has played a part of it. Like they had went on just like a pretty historic run of just like nobody. It was like Brooklyn twice and Washington wise, all that stuff. Although recently the haymaker they threw to Orlando on Monday night. And that was real. I was like, that was real. The two things that jumped out, actually three things. CJ McCollum not a walking corpse anymore. Which is nice to see. Welcome back to the NBA. CJ McCollum I would say Nikhil kind of blending the versions of past. Nikhil like shot maker, dribble the ball like the air out of the ball. Poor pelicans Nikhil and then the role player Nikhil like being able to shoot. It's really kind of found a nice little synergy between the two versions. He seems legit as a scorer and that's great to see. And I think Dyson Daniels seems like he's found a little niche there as more of a playmaker type for sure. And probably not having Trey around to have those reps has added to that. Obviously the shot. Major concerns. I still long term would like to see that come around because it just makes putting other players on top of this way more difficult. We talked about Akov as a potential in there. Like maybe there's like some synergy there that could work. But if you were to get like a non shooter type, someone who's more in like the average. It's like it becomes pretty difficult to jumble, but the playmaking stuff has been legit. Like he's, he's around like six assists a game and I think he's trending up upwards.
- [45:06]
A
Well. And it's the easiest way to dispel all of the crunch that happens from not just being a bad shooter, but an unwilling shooter. If you're, if you're going to just like stand on the perimeter and catch it and not take shots, that's a huge problem for your offense. But if you're the kind of person who can either catch in those situations, attack and get downhill and make smart plays, or start with the ball in the first place, it's just not as big of an issue. Like, I think there have been points in, in recent NBA history where you absolutely had to be a dynamic pull up threat in order to like make plays with the ball. As a, as a high usage player, I think that's kind of true, but it's shifted away from it a little bit and offenses are creative enough or even if you are Dyson Daniels, if you want to start with him as your nominal point guard, you can get a lot of good stuff done.
- [45:49]
B
Yeah, Walker, Kessler, Jabari Smith also have down here. But I, I feel pretty good about Payton Watson at 5.
- [45:56]
A
I think the one bummer I had and Peyton Watson is just like in a different league than this guy. But, but I would like to live in a world where Andrew Nemhard had more of a case for number five just because of the body of work and how useful he is to winning teams. But it's just, he's just not on that level and that's okay.
- [46:12]
B
He's going to get supplanted by Darren Peterson because they literally have not won a game in like 12 years.
- [46:17]
A
Yeah.
- [46:18]
B
All right, let's go to 2023 at this point.
- [46:20]
A
Did y' all see the knot on Avitz's Zubots his head last night? Our guy got clocked in a way where I'm, I'm genuinely concerned. Just like a full James and the giant Pete sprouting from his forehead.
- [46:31]
C
Geez, no.
- [46:33]
B
Did he get that on paternity leave, which he took for like a month or two.
- [46:36]
A
What? You don't. You're against paternity leave now?
- [46:39]
C
Oh boy.
- [46:39]
B
As an NBA player, I didn't really think that was part of the benefits package, but it seems like a good deal if you can get it. It's true.
- [46:46]
C
You're about to get an angry text from Matt Dollinger.
- [46:48]
A
The king or just from the Swedes in general?
- [46:51]
B
The king of paternity leaves. That's a title. I want that. Fuck, man. Give me six months off.
- [46:58]
C
I was like the only could think of that took paternity leave. I'd have to. Maybe I'd have to go back to the well on that.
- [47:03]
B
But yeah, I'm just looking to. To father children at this point just so I can get some time off.
- [47:07]
A
You read it. A sire.
- [47:13]
C
All right. Desire. That's his headline on.
- [47:16]
B
Yeah. 2023. Wy. Number one. Any debate?
- [47:22]
A
No.
- [47:23]
B
No. Maybe two, I think is an interesting discussion. Where'd you end up, Rob?
- [47:29]
A
I end up with Ahmed Thompson still here, who I have to be honest, I just thought we would be talking about a lot more this year, but the Rockets have been such a sledge factory for weeks, if not months now. But he's still an amazing defender. He's still an all world athlete. He's still able to accomplish a lot despite all of the like, frankly insufficiencies in his game at this point as a shooter and a scorer and you still look up and it's like, oh, he had 16 tonight. Oh, he had 20 tonight. He just kind of makes enough stuff happen where I think he's. He's still my go to for number two here.
- [48:01]
C
Yeah, I mean this cerebral kind of nature of his game combined with his athleticism is. Is a really interesting combination because I think it allows him to navigate some of those odd dead ends that plague other players because, you know, he just. He has point guard sensibility. I say that a lot with him and I think that helps him to cheat. He grew up as a point guard playing with the sar and I think that helps him choose his spots and spatially be smart. He still has a lot of issues that he's got to figure out. And you know, the, the question of. I think Rob and I debated whether or not he could be the center of a productive offense that's competitive. Jury's still out on those things, but he's smart enough to sort of work around that, being an invaluable role player.
- [48:38]
B
Yeah. Amen. Just seems to be at the stage of his career where he's the running quarterback that really needs to like iron out the nuances of the passing game. And until he gets to that point, I'm just a little bit more disappointed than I should be because he is really just a one on one athlete and defender and all these great things that we've been saying about him for years, I'm just like, at this point, you kind of need to be a little bit more conventional in order to take the next step. And so I almost feel bad just like celebrating all of his unconventional, like, awesome qualities, because he really does need to nail down some of the things that we need from a star player in order to be called a true blue all star player. Whereas, like, I look at Brandon Miller, who I have it to over a man, reluctantly, to a certain extent, where it's just like he has everything. I feel like if he just kind of like let it rip. If we were in old school, like Bobcats territory and it was just Brandon Miller playing with a bunch of bums and Gerald Wallace, he would probably score 32 points a game at this point. Like just absolute pure fluidity. Just flow and shoots the fucking shit out of the ball. And it's a beautiful, underrated.
- [49:43]
C
It's a beautiful ball, man. It's just beautiful. I sit and just admire it. Yeah, it's an astonishingly beautiful.
- [49:48]
B
Let's make you cry.
- [49:51]
A
Those are bad tears though, you know, Those are tears of joy.
- [49:55]
B
No, we're making a beautiful.
- [49:56]
C
Not if you love pasta dish. Vidalia.
- [49:59]
B
I don't know, but I just, I feel like he's already all the things we want from like a shooting star wing player. And he's getting better because all the injuries have interrupted everything. And so I have Miller at 2.
- [50:13]
A
I mean, he's just turned himself into an amazing, like, high volume shooter too. Just, just very so easily. It's not just the aesthetics of his shot, it's how accessible it is within his game. It's the fact that he is such a willing and able, like, catch and shoot guy, go to defender. Like, he has all of those other elements that, I mean, honor the legacy of a dude who considers Paul George his goat. Like, it just has all kind of fallen into place in a way that makes total sense and tracks, given the priorities that he has on floor. I, I love watching Brandon Miller play. I think if anything, I still give Amen the edge because I hear, I hear everything you're saying, Justin, about Amen needing to have some more traditional aspects. I also think he would benefit maybe more than anyone else on the roster if Houston had a more traditional layout to its team this season. And by that I mostly just say Fred Van Vliet being healthy. If they had a healthy Fred. All of a sudden Amen gets to be a more situational creator. All of that, like, tic tac toe stuff that he ends up with in the offense, I think would be even easier to get into. You just need someone to drive consistent pick and roll that Amen can play out of. That's not Kevin Durant and the Rockets don't have that right now. So I think he's done like a huge disservice by just overall the. The slop that is the Houston half court offense. Whereas Brandon Miller is a big part of what's making the Hornets really good right now. But there's a lot of chaos and momentum and flow to the way that Charlotte is playing that he also benefits from from.
- [51:40]
B
Yeah, four. This is where it gets tough. Really tough. Because you can go in a number of directions. Have Tamani Kamara down here didn't ultimately go with him four or five, which was disappointing.
- [51:51]
A
It's big of you.
- [51:53]
B
I went with keante George at 4.
- [51:56]
A
I'm not mad about it.
- [51:57]
C
Interesting. Interesting.
- [51:59]
B
Okay.
- [51:59]
C
Okay.
- [52:01]
B
I just feel like every time I start to doubt whether or not he will backslide and start to revert back to wild, chaotic like Keonte, like, it just feels like he has the type of game where it's just like, oh, 30 on a given night. Let's see him in like an optimal context and this guy can probably figure it out. I just. I don't know. I just like the type of player who in most circumstances I would probably have a little bugaboo about just like, oh, God. Scoring guard, not that big. Just like, just seems like he has it in a way that that type of player typically does not. I just think he's gonna just really pop next year. And so if anything, I feel like I'm buying low. Even though he had such a to break out to start the season.
- [52:40]
C
When you say backslide, it makes it sound like he's like a Quaker who like lost his testimony or something. It's like he's fallen into sin. God is. I don't know. I just like that term.
- [52:50]
A
That's what chucker punkards do sometimes. You can't let him fall into sin. Well, can we kind of group the four or five conversation? Because I feel like. I feel like these two spots. And correct me if you guys feel differently, are Keante Kayson, Wallace and Anthony Black in some combination? Is. Is there anyone else worthy of consideration here?
- [53:09]
B
I threw a SAR on there, but I think he's a distant one. I have Skew Henderson on my list as well.
- [53:15]
A
A long list, I hope.
- [53:16]
C
Sure.
- [53:17]
B
You know, 10 players, everybody's on a list. Yeah. You know, he has moments.
- [53:24]
A
I think I would I go case in at 4.
- [53:26]
B
Okay.
- [53:27]
A
And to me, I was honestly very tempted by Asar in this conversation as well. I just think his limits offensively plus some of the recurring injury stuff is just like enough to make me wonder a little bit about who Asar will be. Casen Wallace already has the proof of concept. Right. Those are two between. Between those guys. Two of the best perimeter defenders that we have. Kayson Wallace not only has a place on a championship Thunder team, but sometimes when Shay goes out, he'll just put up 20 and 10 like it's nothing. And that. That stuff is pretty nice.
- [53:57]
B
Nice. Yeah. His dalliance.
- [54:04]
A
Did I freeze too or. We all froze for a minute. Okay.
- [54:08]
B
No, you froze for a minute. But if you finished. Wait, does he have to pick it up again? Isaiah? Because it wasn't on video. Okay, I can just pick it up from there.
- [54:19]
A
Okay.
- [54:21]
B
Yeah. His dalliance of being kind of like a primary or something, like masquerading as one while SJ and a lot of guys were out was pretty eye openening. It was pretty chaotic. But he all of a sudden was doing all of the sort of number one things that he would hope for and looked way more fluid than you would expect from a guy who's been kind of pigeonholed as this defensive first. And like just stay in the corner and figure things out. There's a lot there in order to tap into. I know Kyle has seen it at Kentucky and so that's there. Right. And at some point they're going to get to it.
- [54:50]
C
I hope a lot of dalliance. Great dalliance.
- [54:54]
B
Yeah.
- [54:54]
C
He no case. Kayson, I think is another example of, of the primary. You know, it's another example of that to me of the, the implied primary thing with Keante where it's like it's. I think it's hard to do. It's interesting because it's like you don't want to downplay what, what Kayson does and say like what, you know, assume that what Keonte is doing is harder because it's like in a way it kind of. It's just as hard or hard to fit into what. But you know, it takes intelligence, it takes poise that those types of shots to know. Discernment is what I always kind of say is like the discernment to know where to fit in and how to fit in. And Kason does that and demonstrates. I would still have Kayson here because I think he's a much better two way player. I don't know if you all saw Josh Minot tried to casually cross over in the half court against case, and that was pretty funny case. It was just like, dude, what was Minot thinking? He just kind of slowly broadcasted he was going to cross over. And Kason literally just held his hand out and just said, that's, I'm going to take that. I would put, I would put Case in there just for, for all of those reasons.
- [55:58]
B
Okay, so Rob, you had Kason at 4 and then George at 5.
- [56:01]
A
George at 5, yeah.
- [56:02]
B
Okay.
- [56:03]
A
And I think, I think George, I, I, I love the conversation. You approached Kyle about like, which of these things is harder, which of them is, is more difficult to bring to the table. I think Keante George has crossed like a really critical threshold this year from a guy who you sort of reluctantly invest in hoping that he becomes the more fully fledged creator with the ball, the more comfortable pick and roll operator. And now he just is that guy. But he just has enough of those fundamental skills where it's okay, we, we see what you can be now and how far can we take this? And that's such a different conversation. It's so much less like, you know, relying on something so ephemeral that may never manifest. I feel really great about the development Keante George has shown this season. If I were the Jazz, I would feel at peace about the idea of putting the ball in his hands for my offense moving forward. And that's just not where I expected to be with him as a player, given where we were a year ago.
- [56:57]
B
Yeah, so we named pretty much everybody. Did we name Anthony Black? He was in briefly, the short list.
- [57:02]
C
Yeah, yeah, he was in the grouping that Rob mentioned. Yeah.
- [57:06]
B
All right, Anybody else? Any receiving votes, consideration?
- [57:11]
A
Darius Walker?
- [57:13]
B
No, unfortunately not.
- [57:14]
A
Taylor Hendricks.
- [57:15]
B
How you feeling about it?
- [57:16]
A
Taylor Hendricks, you know, showing some stuff, doing some things. There are a couple guys in the Grizzlies right now. It's like, huh, Walter Clayton, he did some things tonight.
- [57:26]
B
Yeah.
- [57:27]
C
You know, there's been some pretty interesting precipitous falls. I mean, Koulibaly is a fascinating one. The optimism market has really dried up on that one.
- [57:38]
A
Yeah, we're struggling.
- [57:40]
C
You know, Jaime, Jordan, Walsh, Hawkins.
- [57:44]
A
Jaime's good.
- [57:45]
C
Yeah, I love Jaime. A long time Jaime guy.
- [57:49]
B
Yeah.
- [57:49]
C
And then the, yeah, then the, the, the. As we've talked about, the Gigi Jackson, the, the upside plays of Whitmore and Gigi Jackson have just evaporated. So, yeah, really interesting movement in this class. Derek Lively, another guy, had a lot, a ton of promise early on that the jury. Jerry might be out, you know.
- [58:05]
A
Well, the. The injuries have just completely changed the start of his career, unfortunately. But I. I want to give Gigi Jackson some credit. I do think he evaporated. But then if I'm getting my water cycle correct, he also then precipitated back down, and he's back.
- [58:18]
C
He rained into a puddle. That. That puddle might become something.
- [58:21]
A
It could become something. You could scoop up part of that puddle.
- [58:23]
C
At least Puddles would be a great nickname for him. Puddles Jackson. I like it.
- [58:28]
B
What's funny about this class is I remember people talking up its depth, and I look at it and I'm like, these are a lot of interesting names that I've considered as good players, but ultimately have netted out as, like, rotation guys at best, like the Grady Dicks of the world. Jalen Hood. Shaffino. RIP Gone but not forgotten. Chris Murray. Noah Clowney. Still like Noah Clowney.
- [58:49]
C
Yeah, I was going to say we were, like, effusively praising Noah Clowney when. Then he deserves a mention.
- [58:55]
A
Yeah, he does deserve a mention. That's a good bottle episode for us. Like, if we would want to put that in a time capsule. Us like RA Noah Clowney. Four weeks into the season, that SNL
- [59:06]
C
sketch, what were you thinking? The.
- [59:09]
A
I know what we were thinking, and I still believe it. Yeah, I'm with you.
- [59:12]
B
He's good. Let's take one more break, and then we'll get to the last two.
- [59:17]
A
My day kicks off with a refreshing Celsius energy drink, then straight to the gym, prek pickup back home to meal prep.
- [59:24]
B
Time for my fire station shift.
- [59:25]
A
One more Celsius. Got to keep the lights on when the three alarm hits.
- [59:29]
B
I'm ready.
- [59:30]
C
Celsius live fit.
- [59:32]
A
Go grab a cold, refreshing Celsius at your local retailer or locate now@celsius.com.
- [59:42]
B
All right, 2024. This one was an absolute mess last year because we were really just scraping the bottom of the barrel. I feel like at the very least, we have a clear cut number one. Which is something to say about a draft that I think, like, even as recently as the beginning of this season, we're like, is any of these motherfuckers going to be good? Stefan Castle, absolute superstar. The fact that the Hawks don't have him right now is such a disappointment. The fact that they have, like, a wing player who's, like, can play some rotation as opposed to, like, a star who could really pop in this sort of system. Specifically, like, look what Kaminga is doing with the extra space. And attention like Castle would just be that and then some huge disappointment for the Hawks. But in our redraft, he's going number one.
- [60:27]
A
If. If they had taken Castle number one, do you think it would have made it more likely that Trey Young is still a Hawk because they would have been good enough with Castle to talk themselves into keeping him? Or would he have been so good and so convincing they would have felt just as comfortable, if not more so, trading him away?
- [60:44]
B
It's a great question. Ultimately, I think think it was more of a personality thing with Trey and the fact it seems like based on what people have been saying, like the fact that they didn't give him an extension was just like it there. And if they wanted to, like, really draw the line, it was probably going to come to a conclusion regardless. But you're right. Would they have been better in that season? Probably. Although, like, similar enough issues with Daniels where it's like, I know Castle does so much more, but like the fact that he can't shoot still. Still there and is more of like a off ball, destructive force, defender type. So they probably would have had like, just the better version of what they ultimately had, is what I would say.
- [61:23]
C
There's some causality that you kind of have, because if you think about Castle with that team, it's very much like the spatial wings, that shaky shooting, spacing, wings, that play defense thing that you kind of end up in a circle pointing at each other, Spider man style in it. But if you think back about what they would have been like with Castle, you know, on that team in the beginning. Yeah. I mean, it could have been interesting. I don't know that it would have changed the arc of the Trae Young story, though.
- [61:47]
A
Makes sense.
- [61:48]
B
What'd you do at number two? I think you can go one of three directions here.
- [61:53]
A
I think it's Alex Sar.
- [61:55]
B
I regretfully put Alex Sar, despite the fact that I think that Clingan will be the better player.
- [62:03]
A
Wait, you. You think Clingan has a case for number two on this list?
- [62:07]
B
Absolutely. Do you watch the Blazers, bro?
- [62:11]
C
Click.
- [62:12]
A
I. I do. Donovan Clink. Donovan Clingan's quite a good player. I'm going to tell you right now. He's not in my top five.
- [62:20]
B
He's not in your top five?
- [62:22]
A
He's not in my top five.
- [62:23]
B
That's. That's derelict, my friend.
- [62:26]
A
It's derelict.
- [62:27]
B
What? What? What? Oh, hold on. I gotta. I gotta talk myself down here. We gotta
- [62:33]
A
collect yourself. Everything's gonna be okay.
- [62:36]
B
How.
- [62:36]
A
How is he?
- [62:37]
B
Not even in your top five? Because I think what do you have against him is, I guess the question.
- [62:42]
A
I have nothing against him. I think Donovan Klingen feels like a rock solid, kind of very defined player and I know who that player is. I understand why he's useful. But if you're talking about the molds of other archetypes that could be better than that, I think there are a lot of them. I think if you are a pretty traditional center of a certain size with only a certain level of mobility, I'm going to put that delicately. There are just too many ways to work around you. There's too many ways to play you off the floor. There's too many matchups that are just like not your matchup.
- [63:11]
C
So you think he's a legitimate liability potentially in a playoff series? That you would have to say that if you, if you. If. Is that what you're getting at? I mean, you think that he's going to have problems in that sense?
- [63:20]
A
I think he's a really good regular season defender right now and he has to prove it in a playoff series before. I believe that like that kind of player is just like a given.
- [63:30]
C
I think he's more mobile than he gets credit for, though, honestly.
- [63:33]
B
In that sense, yes. Clearly you have to drop them. And so there's that he is a big old boy at the rim and so there's like only so bad he can be.
- [63:43]
A
That is true.
- [63:44]
B
And, and so like, I don't know. Especially if you build the right defense around him and I think they're going in that direction where they have enough wings to funnel you into him. I don't see how. I know that you guys are going to scoff at the Go Bear comp, but I do think there are similar types defensively, if only because he's just a big old thing you have to work around.
- [64:02]
A
Yeah.
- [64:03]
B
I just don't know how he can't have that sort of impact while still developing offensively where it's just like we're talking about SAR as like a two way guy who can stretch a little bit. And I think still offensively, despite the fact that he's scaled back his shooting, his stretch is the advantage, especially if you're going to plop Anthony Davis or another traditional center next to him. Like they're similar shooters at this point. And I actually think Clingan is a little bit better. It's a little bit more natural. I think for him, at the very least, he's shooting it with a little bit more confidence. And so I I get the mobility with sar, but in terms of like overall package, I still think Clingan like is his handoff game they really haven't even tapped into. And I think he is a very smart player with the basketball in terms of decision making on the fly in that regard. And that's not like SAR is just like more of the traditional athlete type type and that sort of thing.
- [64:53]
A
Yeah, see, I think that that gap is closer than you give SAR credit for. I think SAR is actually a pretty good. He's not like a handoff option in the way that Clingan is. Like, I don't think you're going to get anything great going out of that stuff. But this season he's been pretty good making plays out of the short role. And so it's like for me with sar, it's the combination of all of these like connective tissue skills. He has been such a much better score around the basket this season, like the post game and finishing around guys who I thought might give him problems. I think he's been pretty credible doing that. He has the emerging three point shot that you mentioned, which we should say like by the numbers is still a little bit more reliable than Clings. Although Clingan's had some great stretches and he's also been enough of a factor making those sorts of plays in the intermediate game that it's like, okay, I can see a comprehensive offensive player here in addition to one who for me is just as good defensively if not better than Clingan.
- [65:44]
C
Right now I think they're pretty different defenders, but I think in terms of the, the offensive stuff that you're talking about, the He. I've. This has always kind of been my thought with sars, that he's going to reach a point. I can just feel like this is a, this is a conclusion that we're headed towards regardless. They kind of did this to Lively a couple of years ago in the playoffs where he is good at making those passes. But I think eventually his like decision making as a finisher, I think in that like 10 foot to or even 15 foot to the rim area, I think teams are going to stay home on shooters and force him to be like a guy who finishes because, because that, that passing is only going to pop if they help. And I kind of feel like that is the, the end game for him that he's going to have to figure out to be. And it's like with Clingan, I, I respect that he's going to catch the ball right there and Just put his back on somebody and go to the rim. It's simple, but it's there. And I think Sar is going to have to answer that question.
- [66:35]
B
I've always thought that he's getting better that as. As well. I almost feel like we're giving Sar more credit for who he could be versus appreciating what Clingan already is. And Clingan isn't someone who is in college for like four, four years. He did. He spent two years there and was a bit of a late bloomer. And so if anything, I feel like he has as much untapped potential there. And if anything is like really, I mean, I think you're discrediting. I think you're discrediting how much a big old boy can do over the course of like a regular season in like the first or second round. Like maybe he was the type of player who defensively could get exposed at the highest level when we're stretching you out, like, what can he do in space? Clearly that's going to happen once they get to a playoff series. But like, until then I, I feel pretty good about him being the best offensive rebounder in the league. A guy who's getting a little bit better in, at like at the rim in terms of like his, his offensive output. And I, I think the shooting is legit. I think like he's just going to get better there. And so if we have like a Brook Lopez who could actually play defense trajectory, like even regardless of my personal biases, like I still like that type versus Sar, who I think is still theoretical at this point.
- [67:42]
A
I, I think especially for an exercise like this, Donovan Clingan to me profiles as a really high level role player. Like if, if he, if he has an Isaiah Hartenstein career with a little bit more shooting, that's like a good outcome for Donovan Clingan, I think, versus Alex Sar. I, you could talk me into him being a multi time all star. Like I see enough versatility to what he brings to the table. Like the upside to me is much different, different and that, that's what I'm banking on. So you're right. Like I am ultimately prioritizing the potential over the realities of the here and now. I just don't think the realities of the here and now are that far apart. And so then it makes it very easy to bank on the upside.
- [68:22]
B
You really like that Bam game. You're just like, sar, get him into my system.
- [68:27]
A
You think that was an accurate representation of literally anybody involved of any NBA basketball?
- [68:34]
C
I Shoved him in a locker, but basically that's what that was. He certainly did get in there. Nerd.
- [68:39]
B
Imagine if it was clinging. He ain't moving. I actually had Sara, too, and I have clinging at three, but I think it's way closer. I. For the reasons that you laid out, I do think sar, like, at the highest levels of the game, I think projects to be the type of guy that can scale up in that way, but, like, clinging at three, that didn't feel like. Like a take when I put it down.
- [68:58]
A
Yeah, it doesn't feel like a take, but you're going to hate the rest of my list. I can already do tell.
- [69:02]
B
Oh, boy. Do you want to. Do you want to go with who
- [69:04]
A
you have at Modest Buellas? Number three.
- [69:07]
B
I had him at four.
- [69:08]
A
Okay. Okay. So we're in some alignment. Kyle, how do you feel about Modest Buzz Ellis these days?
- [69:14]
C
I've always. I've always kind of had to talk myself into him, but he's like, he's. I love his energy. I love his motor, the skill set. You know, over the course of his career, he's a good enough shooter to make me believe. I think he's gonna. He has the upside to draw more like a lot of fouls in the half court, and he's a good. Like, I think those things are, you know, over. I've always been a little cautiously pessimistic about him, but I don't really totally know where that comes from. Some of that could be just he hasn't been enough of a drink stirring kind of catalyst for the. For the Bulls to. And that's probably where that's coming from. But it seems like you guys are. Sell me on him. Tilt. Tilt me the other direction.
- [69:54]
A
Well, I am predisposed. Like, I like a lot of the elements of his game just on a baseline. I love kind of the weird rhythm that he plays with, how unpredictable that makes him as a driver. It's, like, very difficult to stay in front of in a way that. That I'm totally with you. I think will ultimately manifest in him drawing a lot of free throws over the course of his career. Take that with a little recency bias. A little plop of like, oh, here's him dropping 30 on a team. Here's him dropping 40 on the Warriors. There's just, like, enough of these things coming to the fore that I already liked that. Like, I can feel my internal confirmation bias just like pinging like a slot machine.
- [70:28]
C
Who hasn't dropped 40 on the Warriors? I've done that you've done that. Come on, Rob.
- [70:32]
A
It's a fair concern these days. I know these games are not of the highest order, I know this isn't the highest competitive standard. But a big wing who's hard to stay in front of, who has real two way potential, who is enough of a shooter, who can like work as an intermediary, not like the best playmaker in the world, but can make like smart, functional decisions with the ball. That's a really valuable player in the modern NBA. And so I, I, I can kind of talk myself into him pretty easily given they are already like a lot of the aspects of his game. But, but he's been really great over the last month in particular, yeah, 21
- [71:03]
B
points he's averaging post all star break. And now this is a yearly tradition with the Bulls where at the end of the season some player pops and we all have to reconsider him. I never really have to reconsider him. Cause I always liked the model that he had, especially once he showed enough athleticism to compete at like the highest level. And some of the other stuff is coming around. He's starting to use his physicality, I think a little bit more these days, which has been nice to see. And so a lot of things going wrong with the Bulls, but clearly he isn't one of them. If anything, like he was an easy choice for me at 4, I guess, like you would think.
- [71:34]
C
But you have clinging ahead of him.
- [71:35]
B
Yeah, I have, I have clinging ahead of him.
- [71:38]
C
Zach. Yeah. I don't think even, even for all the things that I said, I would still take the, the promise of Bouzelis ahead of because I think it's harder to find.
- [71:45]
B
Yeah, I could totally see that. Yeah, for sure. I had, I had read at five though.
- [71:50]
A
What about, what about A.J. mitchell?
- [71:53]
C
Yeah.
- [71:53]
B
Oh, about A.J.
- [71:55]
A
mitchell. Yeah. This is like not the deepest draft class overall in terms of the 2024 group, but AJ Mitchell at 38, I think could go down as like an all time kind of pick in terms of value at that spot. He's kind of exactly what you want. Maybe not in like a go to primary point guard in, in a starring sense, but has all of the elements of that kind of player that, that I, to me he is my number four and I felt pretty good about it.
- [72:25]
C
He's in an interesting position where they, positionally you could see where they separate and differ. Where if you thought about like what AJ Would do for the Rockets, like how he could make in the half court, give them a little bit more Playmaking a little bit more, you know, and then. But on the other hand, I, I do wonder to, to get back to the circumstance thing. It's like how would I feel about Reed if he were playing in that driving kick, super healthy oasis of open shots that he would get with okc? I think that those two really comparable when you compare their situations. I think you can kind of get a look at how they're different as players.
- [72:59]
A
But counterpoint, would AJ Mitchell ever get the Eme Udoka treatment of like you can't guard anybody. Like he's competitive enough defensively? Like, I think there are just certain coaches and certain styles that just don't fit Reed. I don't know that there's a team in existence that couldn't use A.J. mitchell. And that's a, that's a testament to. He is on the ball, off the ball, how much fight he puts in defensively. Just like a nice little all around game.
- [73:22]
B
Somehow I was considering Quinton post for a couple minutes but somehow overlooked AJ Mitchell just went by him in that second round there. Yeah, I would probably have him at 5 then. But to Kyle's overall point about OKC, like is. Is Reed not a better version of like Jared McCain who could slot into that just immediately?
- [73:40]
A
Absolutely.
- [73:41]
C
Dark days in Philly, man. Seeing the Jared mc. I sympathize for the Philly. It's. It's some real depressed Squidward out the window watching. Some of the worst Squidward out the window watching I think I've ever gotten. Gotten wind up from the Philly Fans on the McCain thing.
- [73:55]
B
His. His barbs as well. Like they're real. Like cut you where you. You don't really see it. Yeah, it's like, oh yeah. You know, it would have been nice if, if indeed set screens for me. Like I didn't realize that could happen. But it seems like those guys are doing well. All I wish, I wish them the best. He's been really good about it.
- [74:12]
A
I mean, right in your zone. I would think that maybe some elements of the Jared McCain presentation and experience are not your cup of DJV. But the spite, the, the low key little barbs.
- [74:23]
C
Saccharine spite too. Right. It's really, it's a smile, it's a real. It's a real hair thin dagger that he's sticking in there and you're like damn, it was hair thin. But it hurts. Yeah.
- [74:33]
B
You're saying I can't be a Tik Tok star. Are.
- [74:35]
A
I'm saying you could if you wanted to be. But do you want to be.
- [74:41]
B
I could do that.
- [74:42]
A
I mean, you're already a Netflix star. What's. I mean, who's to say how far you could go?
- [74:46]
B
That's true. Anybody else on this? This list is pretty long, but I will say it's, like, pretty crunched together. I feel not all that different about most of these guys.
- [74:57]
A
Yeah. I mentioned a second ago this was not the deepest class. I mean, in terms of, like, potential stars, but role players. Like, this is an incredible second round group. This. Like, there's just so many useful guys right now who have already kind of come to the fore.
- [75:12]
B
I have down Keyshawn George.
- [75:14]
A
That's my number five.
- [75:16]
B
Okay.
- [75:17]
A
Yeah.
- [75:17]
B
Wow. Over Donovan clinging.
- [75:19]
A
Over Donovan clinging.
- [75:20]
B
Okay.
- [75:20]
A
I mean, I've talked a lot about Keyshawn George on this podcast. I don't think I need to do my spiel in its entirety. Over again. But a giant wing who is a very talented playmaker already. Yes. Clumsy. Yes. Overtaxed in his current role with the Wizards. An aggressive defender who. Yes. Needs to reel it in a little bit. But I just think he's going to be really good. I think he's going to be really good for a long time where I. I am willing to bet on that potential, even over cling it.
- [75:47]
B
New Batum.
- [75:50]
A
I mean, that's a. That's a player.
- [75:52]
B
New tomb.
- [75:53]
A
No, I don't think new tube works.
- [75:55]
C
We can't.
- [75:55]
A
We can't go that far. Far.
- [75:57]
C
I don't know that I'm ready to go to Batum, but Because that one's. I'm a. I'm a big Batum guy. So that one, I'm.
- [76:02]
B
I'm.
- [76:02]
C
I'll sit to the side, but he's good. Yeah.
- [76:06]
B
All right. Should we get to 20, 25 now?
- [76:07]
A
Let's do it.
- [76:08]
C
Yeah.
- [76:10]
B
This one is, like, not different whatsoever for me. I think I have pretty much the exact type top five as it went out, except for Khan over vj. So I have Flag, Harper, Khan, vj, Ace right there.
- [76:26]
A
I think the five spot is tough. Like, Ace is.
- [76:28]
B
Ace is good lately as well.
- [76:31]
A
He's been quite good lately. Like, he's banging in threes. You can see the vision. I just, like, don't know what to do with this five spot because I've had mo. I had Ace on it initially. I've had Coward there. I've wondered, like, should we be giving Derek Queen more credit for who he could be in a different context?
- [76:48]
B
But before we get there.
- [76:49]
A
Yeah.
- [76:49]
B
Before we do that, did you have Harper over Khan I think is the big debate.
- [76:54]
A
Yeah, I think this is the big one and we've talked about this at various stages in the season. Like how different the spurs would look if they had Khan right now. I still think it's Harper and I don't think if you look at what Harper has done for the spurs this season, the ease with which he got like glides into the paint. That is a star. Like he's going to be a star level creator whenever he's given that opportunity. I don't know if that's with San Antonio. I don't know if that's going to be somewhere else. We'll have to see how it all shakes out with Castle and Fox and everything. But I just don't see anything in his play this season. Tell me he is not going to be like a real deal every night creator for any team that wants to give him that much leverage. And the spurs just are too good to kind of do that on a full time basis. But that's not really Dylan Harper's fault at all.
- [77:36]
C
This is another cold dead fingers for me. Rob. I was surprised you even alluded to the idea of him playing for somebody else. I mean maybe UFA down the road. I if I'm the Spurs, we're keeping this guy guy I and you know, coming this was not a hard eval. I wasn't unique in feeling this way. The offensive stuff I thought was clear as day. He's like a Shea level paint presence guard. I the defensive stuff is like he has nights where he decides to play defense. Like the night he was checking Brandon Ingram. The physicality, man, the lack of fear, the versatility, the length. He's strong. That's the stuff. I'm just like holy, holy Moses. Like he's, he's a special player, man. I'm still rock solid with him at 2. As great as Khan has been, I
- [78:15]
A
think that's one of those areas too where we talk so much about Ken Harper and Castle play together. What do they sacrifice? Having those guys on the floor pandering about their long term fit and their short term viability in this year's playoffs. I think playing with someone like Steph Castle and the intensity he plays with defensively and obviously having Wimby behind you, like that's the kind of thing that revs up a defender like Dylan Harper, who you're right. Like it is a little bit of a pick and choose moment for him as far as like when he is really applying himself. But it's so stark when he does that if you can increase that motivation at all, increase that focus at all, he could be, I mean one of the best two way guards in the league for a very long time.
- [78:56]
B
It's a tough comparison at this stage right now because if you were to ask me, and I think most people, I think you guys might agree with this, would the spurs be better right now for this season with Khan over Harper? It would probably be con, right? Just because he was more what they needed in order to complete the picture. As long as Fox and Castle are going to be there and he would have had a very nice career with the spurs probably would have popped in similar ways. But I think Harper is discounted in part because he's had a pretty typical rookie trajectory and so Khan has had atypical trajectory and so he's been so good so quickly and I think he's going to be very good for a lot of years. But I just think the high end of Harper, as you guys are saying, is just on another level. That type of creation is just so hard to find in general. It didn't surprise me to see the spurs go with Harper then it wouldn't seem surprise me if the spurs, even if we were doing this by team, would still go with Harper for that long term protest. So five is really where it comes down to.
- [79:59]
A
I originally wrote down Coward, but as we talk about it, I feel like I'm edging toward Ace Bailey again. Again?
- [80:06]
C
Yeah. Interesting. Okay.
- [80:08]
A
Yeah, I think again I'm not really an Ace guy. I. I see a lot of flaws and potential pitfalls in his game, but I want to give him credit for doing exactly what Will Hardy and the Jazz have asked him to do this season and really kind of flaring out all of these supplementary skills that I think could make him a good supporting wing for a long time. And we already know that he has the all star potential as a score that he has kind of like a bucket getting quality that not a lot of guys have. If you have those two things in tandem, that's pretty effective and I think positions you to be a good viable NBA player for a long time. And that's probably enough to kind of s like just get him a little further past Edric Coward for this spot for me. And then Queen I think is like an archetype that deserves consideration. But if you're a big who doesn't defend and currently doesn't space the floor, there's just like such a hard limit on that that could change. He could make us all look very silly he could be, be you know, number two or number three on this list with, with a, you know, a couple shifts in his game. But as it stands, I think it makes sense to give Ace the nod.
- [81:11]
C
Yeah. The conditions for, for Queen to reach a ceiling are very tricky and it's a, it's a tough Bet I. At 5. I mean there, there, there are just so many interesting kind of fringe guys in this class. I think you know, the Nets, the cluster of Nets players that, that has been so up and down this season. I love Coward, but I see where you're going with it with the Bay, the Ace Bailey thing where he's also just so, so young and it's like I, I like Coward too but Cowards had the benefit of, of time.
- [81:40]
A
Yeah.
- [81:40]
C
And if, you know, if we see 22 year old, 23 year old ACE Bailey, I'm just like the higher version of that. Granted. I mean Coward shows creation upside too. So you can kind of weigh that where it's just like I don't know that I'm ever going to trust Ace to be a creator. I don't know how you all feel about this.
- [81:55]
B
That at this point I'm just looking for moments for any of these guys and some of those like high end stuff kind of fades into the background. Whereas I would say in terms of like moments where I had to stop and really think about this player and what he could be. I would say Queen had one of those earlier, earlier this season I think we'd had like a full week or two where it was like is Derek Queen like a fucking MVP candidate? And that was fun. Ace is having that kind of now like if you bother yourself to watch the Jazz basketball and honestly you should have your head checked if you do. Which, which that's me.
- [82:27]
C
There we go.
- [82:28]
B
Ace is like kind of coming around. He's been that like big shot maker who's had now opportunities in order to showcase it and it's just like it really does revert back to pre draft sort of archetypical stuff where it's like he's big as hell and he could shoot the shit out of the ball. And when it comes down to it, that is easier thing to fit as opposed to Queen who like look at what a Pelicans game looks like right now. They have all the incentive in the world to allow that guy to play and really find himself because he is their future. They don't have the draft pick. They're reverting back to the veterans and struggling to get minutes and like, part of that is just institutional. It's organizational. It's a decision to, like, try to be a little bit less embarrassing on the court. But, like, if he was that guy, I feel like he would have popped in the midst of this a little bit more. And I think it speaks to the overall difficulty of, like, shoehorning him into an established structure as opposed to building entire thing around him.
- [83:17]
A
Yeah. I think what no one really wants to tell you about being a playmaking big in that mold is it's really hard to do and to sustain and to continue to surprise teams. Even for someone as creative as Derek Queen, like, even if he got every opportunity in the world, this would be a tough rookie season for him. He's not. I don't know that he will continue to. I hope. I hope he gets those breaks at some point. But you can't just, like, assume per 36, he's just going to, like, become the player we've seen in glimpses. It has to be more than glimpses.
- [83:45]
B
Yeah. So coward, obviously on this list as well. Trey Johnson, kind of in the same little mix there. Had some flashes, but overall, want to see more column. Murray Bowles, obviously, the detonator. We love it. I also have Carter Bryant down here. He's been.
- [84:01]
C
I was gonna mention Carter Bryant. Yeah.
- [84:03]
B
How is he Both so young and looks like he might be 12, like, just from like, a face.
- [84:08]
C
You see his face, you're like, yeah, he's 12.
- [84:10]
B
Yeah. But then he's also fucking ripped and huge. And I feel like he has the type of frame that could add more. Like, is he just gonna be. Once he, like, gets out of the NBA, just like a bodybuilder, and all of a sudden just like, like, getting the oil on him and doing the.
- [84:26]
C
All right, where are we going?
- [84:27]
A
I mean, really getting lathered up on this one.
- [84:30]
C
You really kept going, getting the oil on him, and then it's like the
- [84:34]
B
register went a little deeper.
- [84:36]
A
Really did.
- [84:37]
C
Then we get a bounce card. We're getting some light reflecting off of certain spots. It's just like. Are you direct podcasting in your mind, Justin?
- [84:46]
B
Get the right music.
- [84:49]
C
Something low 80 bpm. You know, saxophone reverb on it.
- [84:53]
A
Well, I love the answer, but Carter Bryant's a claro guy. You know, I think. I think there's already something in the register that could just work perfect for this occasion.
- [84:59]
C
You know, he's.
- [85:00]
A
He's a sensitive, modern man.
- [85:02]
B
Holy.
- [85:03]
C
Get some claro out every once in
- [85:04]
A
a while, as you should.
- [85:06]
B
But a 19 year old NBA player.
- [85:09]
A
I'm just saying it's a brave new world. And if you listen to him talk,
- [85:12]
C
he's, he's, he's a worldly guy.
- [85:14]
A
He's a worldly guy. He's got a good head on his shoulders. And yeah, like, the size, every time he, like, really gets in the mix, the size always kind of catches me, me, you know, just, just in a moment where I'm like, yeah, I knew you were a big wing, but I didn't know you were that big a wing. I didn't know you were just like Trey Murphy waiting for your moment. But, like, it really feels like the spurs have, have just an awesome combo forward prospect that they can pull out at any time to develop whenever they have the opportunity to do that. And unfortunately for Carter Bryant, they're unfortunately playing for the title right now. So he will play some, but not a ton. And yet if you told me three or four years from now he's just going to be. Be a real contender for one of the spots on this list, I would 100 believe you.
- [85:53]
C
He has all defense potential. I really think he does. He's a special defender, man can switch up and down the chain. He's strong as and he's only going to get stronger. He, like, eradicates dudes when they try to shoot on him. Sometimes, like, he gets up with force. I'm a big fan of Carter Bryant.
- [86:10]
B
Just thinking about what his favorite Claro song is at this point.
- [86:12]
C
I didn't know Eric.
- [86:14]
B
Is it sexy to someone? You think that's like, oh, maybe I
- [86:18]
A
could, I could also see him just being pure, like sad boy, just like, you know, bags, you know, just really keeping it mellow.
- [86:25]
C
Is that you didn't expect Claro to come up today. This is good.
- [86:28]
A
It's a great again. It's just I feel we have untapped depth to this podcast in so many ways. You just need Carter Bryant to come up to bring them out.
- [86:36]
B
That's such a wild one, too, because I understand if, like, a young person had like a pop sensibility, like, like Taylor Swift or even if you like, had a country pop thing on with like Shania Twain or something, but, like, Claro's like, deep cut, like, sad girl indie stuff. I don't think that really pierces into the TikTok Gen Z sight guys these days, but maybe I'm wrong.
- [87:01]
A
Well, I've done a quick little bit of research, and apparently there are some sources on the Internet that cite Softly as his favorite Claro song. And I Think there's been either some kind of photographic evidence or maybe he posted on Instagram of him listening to Add Up My Love. So. So we all contain multitudes.
- [87:18]
B
Claro.
- [87:19]
C
Are we on Parks? You guys like Arlo Parks?
- [87:26]
A
What are we doing now? What kind of party? Redrafting. Who are we redrafting if. If Claro and Arlo Parks are in the mix?
- [87:34]
B
Well, we've been talking about doing a team of the season episode. I think we're circling the spurs. Like, what if instead of Victor, Web and Yama, we asked for Claro?
- [87:45]
A
I think Claro might be the. The toughest get in this podcast history. I just don't think that's going to happen for us. But I support us.
- [87:53]
C
We're on Netflix. We got it. We got a lot to. To throw. We got a lot to, you know, we got Justin cinema cinematic ideas. We won't lead with that, but, you know. Yeah.
- [88:04]
B
All right. Once you get to Claro, I think that's it.
- [88:08]
C
I think we've been talking for like two hours.
- [88:10]
A
Hours.
- [88:12]
B
I'm out all next week. I think. I think this might be the first time I've ever missed back to back episodes. How are you feeling about it? A little mixed. Do you guys have anything big and special planned while I'm away?
- [88:24]
A
No, I'm sure we'll do a mailbag.
- [88:27]
B
Jesus Christ. Yeah. All right. Should I just like step away and then never come back? What if I. What if I just like disappeared like, baby, maybe
- [88:38]
A
you're threatening to like Dr. Robbie us.
- [88:41]
B
Is that what happens?
- [88:42]
A
Well, not yet, but it's. The show is circling around the idea that it might.
- [88:46]
B
Oh, right, because he has the. Yeah. If you spoiled pit for me.
- [88:50]
A
I haven't seen. I haven't seen anything beyond what's aired. I'm just saying that man has been on. I will ride off into the sunset on my motorcycle and maybe off a cliff and never to return. I hope that's not what you're alluding to, Justin.
- [89:01]
B
Could I be. Be a motorcycle guy?
- [89:04]
A
I think you could definitely be a motorcycle guy.
- [89:06]
C
He's like a little Honda bike guy. I could see you're like, you're not like a hog. You know, he's.
- [89:12]
A
You don't have that hog in you.
- [89:14]
C
I just kind of see. I just see Justin on like a little Honda bike. I don't know, like some 80s kind of paint on it,
- [89:23]
B
playing Seeger. Just like get a little, little basket on the back there and put all my, my like plant goods that I get at the store.
- [89:31]
A
Yeah, look, for me, I mean, I would watch. You know, let's just take this opportunity to pitch straight to Netflix. A travel series. Justin barrier on his hog experiencing Americana. Who wouldn't tune into that?
- [89:44]
C
I'm not going to tune into anything involving Justin experiencing his hog.
- [89:49]
A
But no, Justin goes hog wilds. I think. No, Kyle, you will not steer us off of this ship. This is. This is our money making endeavor. This is our future.
- [89:58]
B
All right, well, maybe I need to just quit and do that. That's it for me, guys, going forward. All right, thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. We'll be back or you guys will be back on Monday. I'll see you down the road on a hog. Perhaps.
- [90:22]
A
Foreign.
- [90:27]
B
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