← The Ringer NBA Show
The Ringer NBA Show
Redraftapalooza: Reselecting the Top Five Picks of the Past Five Drafts | Group Chat
01:41:00
Loading summary
Transcript397 lines
- [00:00]
Justin Verrier
Hi everyone, it's Amy Poehler and I'm.
- [00:02]
Rob Mahoney
Launching a new podcast called Good Hang.
- [00:05]
Justin Verrier
In preparation for that, I asked some.
- [00:07]
Rob Mahoney
Of my friends to send in some videos and give me some advice.
- [00:11]
Justin Verrier
Just be yourself and the guests will come.
- [00:13]
Waz
Don't be the celebrity that this is their like sixth thing they're doing.
- [00:16]
Justin Verrier
I love true crime and cooking podcasts.
- [00:19]
Rob Mahoney
Is there any way you could combine the two? Well, everyone has an opinion and a podcast, so join me for Good Hang.
- [00:27]
Justin Verrier
It's rough out there, we're just trying.
- [00:28]
Rob Mahoney
To lighten it up a little.
- [00:31]
Justin Verrier
This episode is brought to you by patron 100% additive free tequila. When it comes to ingredients, Patron doesn't need to play games. That's why their tequila is crafted with 100% Weber Blue Agave water and thyme. No sweeteners, no added extracts, no secrets, just 100% additive free tequila. Visit patron tequila.com to learn more. The perfect way to enjoy Patron is responsibly Copyright 2025, imported by the Patron Spirits Company Coral Gables, Florida tequil 40% alcohol by volume. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. Hyundai knows the road could be a little hectic at the best of times. But just like a great player anticipates the next move on the court, Hyundai helps you anticipate the unexpected on the road. Their available class exclusive advanced safety features like forward collision avoidance assist and blind spot view monitor work to protect you on every drive. Learn more about Hyundaiundayusa.com call 562-314-4603 for complete details. Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me as always, Rob Mahoney. Big was guys I think we had yesterday on Wednesday, just a cornucopia of banter topics that just popped up over the NBA Internets. Here's what I have on a list that I've prepared for you today. NBA Sentel gone. And quite frankly, good riddance. Paul George quits podcasting to focus on his championship run. The Nets did a letterbox top four, which was premium content. Love that. Speaking of the Nets, Killian Hayes, a starting point guard in the NBA yet again. And yet we cannot talk about any of them. Or we can just very quickly because we have a lot to do today.
- [02:36]
Eddie Ocampo
We do. And like, look, I don't want to be the traffic cop here, but somebody's got to keep us on time. And there's simply no room for banter. Because, Justin, you have proposed for us a massive redrafting project in which we need to get through many Many picks and many, many draft classes. So, I mean, is there anything you want to say quickly about any of this stuff?
- [02:56]
Justin Verrier
Well, I have to say, like, I also grew a proper mustache, and nobody recognized it last time on the pod. And I'm smarting ever since. The fans. The fans definitely did. Did they Waz sees me as a fellow mustachioed fella.
- [03:13]
Eddie Ocampo
That's true.
- [03:14]
Rob Mahoney
I recognized it. I kept getting mildly distracted by. I'm like, wait, justice. Like, there's still facial hair elsewhere, but the mustache is prominent. I was kind of analyzing it.
- [03:27]
Justin Verrier
That's right, guys.
- [03:28]
Eddie Ocampo
I was just saying we don't have time for banter, and it includes mustache banter. We got to keep it moving. No Sentel, no letterbox. No Killian Hayes, no mustaches. We got to get into it.
- [03:39]
Justin Verrier
All right, you're right. You're right. We are doing redraft a palooza. We are going through the past five drafts in the NBA. So 2020, all the way up to last year's draft, 2024. We are going to reselect the top five picks in each of those drafts. And now you might be thinking, especially if you're Rob, like, what does that mean? Does that mean that we are all going one by one by one? Rob basically almost had an aneurysm.
- [04:05]
Eddie Ocampo
Tough scenes.
- [04:06]
Justin Verrier
We proposed this, but we're just going through basically the top five players of these previous drafts just to recalibrate what we would think about these crops of players based on current information.
- [04:18]
Eddie Ocampo
Well, at the risk of having another aneurysm, I would push back even on that, because I don't think we are necessarily ranking the top five players, but the top five prospects. Right. It's like, who would you. Whose future would you invest in? Not necessarily who is the best right this second?
- [04:33]
Justin Verrier
Yeah. I looked at it from this point onward, and obviously past results factors into that, but it's all about looking to the future with a lot of these guys. And so let's start with 2020, a draft that, frankly might have just a handful of options on the board here, because what a wild time that was. I remember going into that draft like, prospects couldn't even work out for teams just because of COVID restrictions. Fortunately, I think they got the number one pick right there, Anthony Edwards. I assume all of you guys have.
- [05:01]
Eddie Ocampo
Him locked and loaded.
- [05:03]
Rob Mahoney
Number one with a bullet. It's not even a. I didn't even think anybody seriously challenged the notion for me.
- [05:09]
Justin Verrier
Nope. I think 2 and 3 could get a little spicy, depending on how you guys are looking. At it, could they?
- [05:15]
Rob Mahoney
I would say 2, 3, and 4.
- [05:18]
Justin Verrier
Wow. Okay. Why? What do you have at 2?
- [05:22]
Rob Mahoney
I. I kind of went back and forth with this, but ultimately I went with the numbers. I went with the sort of most malleable, it feels like, of the three. Um, and I went with Tyrese Halliburton as my number two pick here. I understand he's had his ups and downs. I understand that, you know, the defense has been a problem. It's probably going to be a problem his entire career. But at the end of the day, if you look at Tyrese Halliburton minutes on the floor, he's just constantly impacting winning. Like, there's no. Every single empirical data point that you can pull up. This guy impacts winning when he's on the floor. Um, as much as I may love the next two guys on my list, Halliburton is my number two. But it didn't come without any trepidation.
- [06:21]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah, not a shocker that I also have Tyrese Halliburton number two. But Justin, as the foremost Tyrese Halliburton skeptic, could you bring yourself to put him at number two?
- [06:34]
Justin Verrier
Man, am I. Am I the. The biggest hater, the biggest halibut?
- [06:38]
Eddie Ocampo
I think, generally speaking, biggest hater, but certainly of Tyree Saliburn.
- [06:42]
Justin Verrier
That's hurtful. Just have. I just have opinions. I did not put him at two. I. I went lamello ball. Because here's what I'm thinking. If you had just switched those guys right now, are the Pacers worse? I know that, like, ball basically plays in a big top over there in Charlotte where he's taking like 12 threes of games at this point. He's doing the whole thing like. Like, almost like the lackadaisical lazy man story where he's not even, like, moving his feet at this point. But I think he's an incredible playmaker, just like Halliburton. Good shooter. Even though the percentages aren't good this year, it's a lot of, like, it's pretty similar sort of offensive engines. I kind of like lamelo ball as more of, like, his reads and just as an athlete. So I would go ball at two.
- [07:24]
Eddie Ocampo
Wow. I mean, this is where you've boxed me in, because as you know, I am a lamello ball defender, and so I. I can't bring it. I can't. I don't have the constitution to really pick apart the playmaking aspects of his game. But I do think Tyrese Haliburton, at this stage in his career is just a fundamentally more serious basketball player. And the ups that was. Was describing and the ups and downs that halliburton has gone through are so substantial. Right? Like, this is good, productive winning results from what tyrese halliburton has done so far. And so I honestly, I understand it. Like, I see the vision with lamelo. He's clearly my number three. I don't know where you landed on lamelo was, but it was very interesting to me, Justin, that we. We were just in a top 100 meeting the other day debating the finer point specifically of LaMelo versus Tyrese Maxey, who. That, to me is the 34 debate. Here I have Tyrese Halliburton number two, LaMelo number three, Maxi number four was. Where did you net out on those?
- [08:19]
Rob Mahoney
So I ended up going max C3 and LaMelo 4. And again, I can understand lamelo over halliburton specifically because they kind of play more similarly in terms of like, they both want to get up and down. Um, they both basically only want to shoot threes. Like, they're not going to do this. Like, sort of pull up two, whatever. Um, both of them try to get into their floater game. So it's either threes or floater games. Neither one of them are just getting to the cup and finishing oversized. That's not a thing that either one of those guys tend to do. So there's like a lot of similarities. But like, Rob, I just think halliburton is a more sound decision maker, particularly in the half court, whereas. And you know, and I think lamelo, like, physically he's a bigger player, so there's like this potential that he could one day be a more imposing kind of defender. I have a hard time believing this guy's ever going to become some ace, like, cares about defense for real on a possession to possession basis kind of guy. And that's why I ultimately dinged him and put maxey ahead of him. Because. And people could say it's, oh, it's recent bias, whatever, but, like, Maxey was a dominant playoff player at times last year. Like, I've seen him against playoff defenses, put in dominant fourth quarter, clutch down the stretch performances in a way that I just highly value in terms of having seen him do that. Whereas lamelo ball is like, you know, telling dick jokes after post game interviews. Like, I can't. I just. To me, I just had to dig him for that, for just. For the lack of resume for the dick jokes. No, no, no, no. Come on. No, of course not. Nobody's a Bigger dick joke promoter than me, but enthusiast. Yeah, enthusiast, yeah. Aficionado, if you will. I just think the lack of resume in terms of serious basketball, even when you get down to playing in the goddamn Australian league or New Zealand, wherever the hell he was before he got to the NBA. Right. I just think he's never played in any serious hoop games. And so I just got him at.
- [10:27]
Eddie Ocampo
4 for that was when you described yourself just now as a dick joke aficionado, it awakened a memory in me. Did you guys happen to see Austin Reaves on the podium? I believe it was Dave McMenamin posed a question to him, including the word aficionado. Austin Reeves blanched at it and got a little educational lesson in the middle of the press conference as to what an aficionado was. We're out here educating the youth.
- [10:51]
Rob Mahoney
I love that.
- [10:53]
Justin Verrier
Yeah. So I have Maxi fourth. I think, Rob, you probably would as well, Right?
- [10:59]
Eddie Ocampo
Yep.
- [10:59]
Justin Verrier
Maxi's an interesting case. And I also think a lot of this is recency bias where if we had done this maybe going into the season, maybe would have looked at things a little bit differently. I just, I love Maxi. He's a bullet. Like I, I compared him to moving around the court like almost like an electric car where he just kind of hovers around. He gets from end to end so quickly and his shooting just keeps getting more diverse. I would say it almost feels like each season is a challenge to himself to take it more of a step back and to take more threes. The percentages are obviously down. I, I, I think the, the question is, is Maxi ultimately the guy you put around your guy rather than being the guy like, I think that both Lamello and Halliburton have proven to be like the go to offense vengeance for their teams. I think Maxi has shown this year and it's not like I don't want to ding him because he's still a very good player. It just feels like he needs an MB to play off of in order to be his best version.
- [11:55]
Eddie Ocampo
It does make sense. And that's not like, that's not taking anything away from him or his game. And I think it's where the Lamelo debate specifically gets so interesting because we may get into Lamelo's career deep into his prime and say he can kind of only play as the guy with the ball in his hands. He has some off ball skill. He certainly can spot up for threes. Like he cuts, he rebounds, he does some other things. But ultimately Lamelo is going to be the guy driving a lot of stuff. And if he is that kind of player. But for teams that never go anywhere, what is that worth relative to Tyrese Maxey? You could end up as a really high end number two option who, if we're, you know, debating Halliburton versus LaMelo versus Maxi, Maxi's probably the best half court player of those three because he can play off of other stars so well. And so like, I really value that kind of skill set. I really value the guys who have games that are amenable to playing alongside other high level players. I just think Haliburton is kind of the best case version of that because he enables those other high level players as much as playing off of them. And Lamelo's ceiling is so much higher, I think, than Maxi's is. What concerns me with Maxey is some of what we've seen this year, which is if he doesn't have those stars to play off of all of the scoring, that he's able to produce, all of that speed, all of that skill just doesn't lift your team anywhere. And I'm open to that argument for Lamelo as well, but for Maxi, I feel like it's. It's kind of front and center with his game right now.
- [13:13]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. And Maxi. The team was not built for Maxi to take the reins as a soloist this season. Right. He's kind of been thrust into this situation with ill fitting piece pieces. I think if a team was like, look, we want to optimize what Maxey does in terms of the, the caliber of the type and style of players that we put around him, I think you'd see a better out outcome than what we saw this year where it's just like, look, we know it was supposed to be Joel and Paul George sort of, you know, easy easing the burden, but like, that's not what happened. And I think his efficiency has suffered for that. But for me, again, I think Maxi just with the experience, his, his ability to just get by anybody. So I don't care if you got a set half court defense or not, like this guy's going to get downhill on you and if you try to go on the screens, this guy will murder you from three. I just, I love the guy. And yeah, it's just Lamelo. I get the tools, I get the production that he's had this season. But like Justin said, if this were October, I don't think Lamelo would be number two or three or on any of our lists.
- [14:29]
Justin Verrier
It's an interesting comparison between Lamelo and Maxey because on the one hand, Maxi defensively can only get to a certain ceiling because he's just so small. He's like six, two, maybe 200 pounds at this point. Lamelo probably won't get to his defensive ceiling for other reasons, more personal reasons. And so it's like, do you want the guy who's going to probably try his ass off but isn't physically as imposing, or do you want a guy like Lamelo who just probably will never get it, but, like, it's so tantalizing that you probably want to take the poll no matter what?
- [14:57]
Eddie Ocampo
Also, with all due respect to Tyrese Maxey, will he try his ass off defensively? Like, he's. He's not exactly a demon out there?
- [15:05]
Rob Mahoney
He hasn't. Maybe if he hasn't been.
- [15:07]
Justin Verrier
Yeah, maybe if he isn't playing 40 minutes a game is literally offensive player on the court.
- [15:12]
Eddie Ocampo
Counterpoint, though. You work for Nick Nurse, and you play for Nick Nurse right now, you're going to play a lot of minutes if you're Tyrese Maxey. So that's his reality, like it or not. He can just hope that Paul George and Joel Embiid are healthier going forward in a way that can alleviate some of that pressure.
- [15:25]
Justin Verrier
Joel Embiid currently, like, scrounging through Europe looking for doctors to just give him just breakthrough surgeries. That shit is dark. But number five is interesting. I consider five to six players here. I ultimately. I ultimately went. Desmond Bain, though I did not consider anybody else.
- [15:45]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah, that's. It's disrespectful to not pencil in Desmond Bain.
- [15:49]
Justin Verrier
I like Desmond Bain. He just. He leaves me a little cold. I'm gonna be honest. Maybe it's more of a me thing I have on this list. Denny Abdia, of course.
- [15:58]
Eddie Ocampo
Okay, stop.
- [15:59]
Justin Verrier
Just.
- [16:00]
Eddie Ocampo
Just stop.
- [16:01]
Justin Verrier
Jamie McDaniels and Yeka Kongwu. Emmanuel quickly. Devin Vassell. It drops off pretty quickly, But I think McDaniels and Abdia are in the mix.
- [16:12]
Eddie Ocampo
No, they are not.
- [16:13]
Rob Mahoney
Daniel. I can understand somebody saying, look, Daniels as a huge wing, really good defender, occasional shot maker. Like, that's a valuable thing on a real team in terms of, like, Daniels, like, pick the top four in both conferences. They could both easily use this guy. They'd be getting 25, 26 minutes on the top four team in both conferences. Right? Like, that's an important kind of play to have. But, like, Bane makes shots, can dribble the rock.
- [16:50]
Eddie Ocampo
It's a good case, I gotta be honest. Valuable skill set, it turns out.
- [16:56]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I didn't Consider those other guys at all.
- [16:59]
Eddie Ocampo
I think it's Bane, like, I mean, we just talked about it with Maxi, too. The scorers who can play with other scorers and who can kind of accommodate that and flex their game in and out in both inside and out in usage, transition, half court. Bane is so versatile in terms of the kinds of shots he can create and make, that I think he's the only pick here at five.
- [17:18]
Justin Verrier
I think he's a really good number.
- [17:19]
Rob Mahoney
Of players with people every other game. I love that. Sure.
- [17:24]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah. When has Danny Abdia done that?
- [17:25]
Justin Verrier
Justin, he's got big guns. You could put them on just like a calendar if you want to go through every player.
- [17:31]
Eddie Ocampo
Sure.
- [17:31]
Justin Verrier
Give them a month.
- [17:32]
Eddie Ocampo
Fundraising is important.
- [17:34]
Justin Verrier
Real beefcake.
- [17:36]
Rob Mahoney
Put him in a fireman helmet.
- [17:42]
Eddie Ocampo
Just coming up with billion dollar ideas.
- [17:44]
Justin Verrier
Yeah, yeah. Did you guys. Do you have any, like, short list of guys beyond maybe who I mentioned?
- [17:50]
Eddie Ocampo
I think you went through it. Like Vassell, Quickley and McDaniels are the three that jump out to me as being sort of the honorable mentions. It's also the kind of draft where you have to at least mention James Wiseman at 2, Pat Williams at 4. The specters of those picks are just. They loom so large. And Desmond Bain, I want to say, not only is he a great player, but so many teams blew it on Desmond Bain, who went 30th in this draft. Like basically everyone had a crack at getting a player that good who every kind of team could use and shout out to the Grizzlies, who have always, historically, at least in the recent history, scouted very, very well and managed to bring in guys exactly like Bane, develop them well, give them opportunities. It's really worked out for him and them.
- [18:29]
Justin Verrier
I'm not telling anyone anything they don't know. When I say that James Wiseman has been a major disappointment. But that might be the one thing in NBA history over the past. What is it now, five to 10 years, where it's like, if that had gone differently, had they drafted Lamelo or Halliburton or somebody else, like, it changes the course of NBA history. It's like the pebble in the pond with the ripple effects just go so far beyond. It's. It's wild.
- [18:52]
Rob Mahoney
But was it like a butterfly, like dying in the woods, in the jungle or something? I don't know.
- [18:59]
Justin Verrier
That one.
- [18:59]
Eddie Ocampo
Fly dying. Oh. But like a butterfly effect kind of butterfly. Yeah. Okay.
- [19:03]
Justin Verrier
Yeah, yeah.
- [19:04]
Eddie Ocampo
Don't kill butterflies. If you're out there, don't step on them wings.
- [19:08]
Rob Mahoney
What does A butterfly do, it flats its wings and we get nuclear war effect like that.
- [19:13]
Eddie Ocampo
That's basically it. Yeah.
- [19:16]
Justin Verrier
Did you see Rob trying to to work around the fact that Denny Abdia is now a top 100 player in the NBA?
- [19:24]
Eddie Ocampo
I put him on my ballot.
- [19:25]
Justin Verrier
You're goddamn right you did.
- [19:27]
Eddie Ocampo
I put him on my belt. Would he be the top five in the 2020 draft? No, he would not.
- [19:31]
Justin Verrier
He absolutely shooting like 33% from three. Maybe he's still a good player. All right, let's flip to 2021. Now this is where it gets really interesting, especially considering recent results. Pistons are on fire right now. Cade Cunningham also vaulting up our top 100 list, which you could look at@theringer.com. hopefully today had some technical issues, but hopefully you can check that out after the. You listen to this pod here. We probably redraft the top five of this draft every couple months on the podcast.
- [20:04]
Eddie Ocampo
Three times this season already. Am I crazy?
- [20:06]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [20:06]
Justin Verrier
I would do it every week at this point.
- [20:08]
Rob Mahoney
It's the most redraftable draft. Yes.
- [20:12]
Justin Verrier
It's just because they're all very good players in their own right, but they're not so good and so far away. There's no Wemby type of player where there's a clear cut one or even two or even three. There's just like, there's so much depth to this draft class, which also gets lost in the mix because the top is so prominent and good. Like Aaron Wiggins is in this draft. That's just like a really good player. Everybody would want to have. Like, Austin Reeves didn't get drafted in this draft. That's a very good player who apparently is learning new things about vocabulary in addition to NBA basketball on the fly. But I think last time we did this, I think I had Scotty Barnes one. I do not have him. Number one now was. Who do you have at the top of your board?
- [20:52]
Rob Mahoney
Cade Cunningham. It's not even close.
- [20:55]
Eddie Ocampo
Not even close.
- [20:56]
Justin Verrier
No, it's close.
- [20:57]
Rob Mahoney
Not even close. It's not even close for me. Because at the end of the day, as much as I love Evan Mobley, you have to. To have the ball in your hands. And this guy. Yes, you do. It's the most important thing. Like if, like, put it like this, Evan Mobley could become the greatest version of himself that we envision for this kid. If they don't have something elite on the perimeter, it doesn't matter. It just straight up doesn't matter. And the things that Mobley will become elite at, you can Try to put it together piecemeal via other parts of your roster. So to me, creation, playmaking, efficient, one on one scoring, all in one package. To me that's always is going to be more valuable. Yes, even more so than an all world defender. Rim protector, switchable. I get it. It's a beautiful piece to have. But you got the name of the game is freaking who scores the most points man. And you need a offense is just more valuable than defense. Like there's just no two ways about it. I know we want to be like all high and mighty and oh, we believe in both sides of the ball and we want to reward the hard workers. I feel it. I have those instincts. But Cade, man, he's showing you he's a primo, dynamite creator. And to me I put that over every other sort of NBA skill set.
- [22:32]
Eddie Ocampo
I agree on the value of that skill set. I think where I disagree a little bit and this is, look, this is me making the argument. I love Cade Cunningham, he's a really good player. He's number two on my list.
- [22:42]
Rob Mahoney
Just smoke the Celtics, okay?
- [22:44]
Eddie Ocampo
Absolutely smoked those guys. The Pistons are an average offense and he is that average offense. He doesn't have a ton of help. Granted, if you gave him more help, gave him other creators to play alongside him. If Jaden Ivey had been healthy all season, maybe some of those things look differently. But in his role, which is a high usage role, he's one of the least efficient 20 plus point scorers in the league. And as far as the guys getting up shots, he does not get to the rim very consistently. He does not draw fouls the level that the best scorers do. He creates a lot of threes which helps boost the team's efficiency overall. But it's like I think that's where I, I bump up against the wall a little bit. If this was a Nikola Jokic level shot creator, Luka Doncic level shot, let's say top 10 player in the league level shot creator, then I'm like, okay, that level of that skill set is just about the most valuable thing you can have. Being a pretty good to very good creator on a team that is a league average offense is persuasive to me, but not as persuasive to me as what might be the defensive player of the year in Evan Mobley now that Wemby is out of the race. A game changing defender under any circumstances and a guy who's basically averaging 20 a game while not having the ball, while learning how to kind of bridge the force and finesse in how he plays.
- [24:00]
Justin Verrier
So we should be transparent here. That I believe Saturday, this most recent Saturday at like 9:00am Rob sent us a sizzle reel of Evan Mobley's offense. Just like I was just eating my cereal out of the ball out of the bowl, like watching cartoons and Rob's like, look at this motherfuckers.
- [24:18]
Eddie Ocampo
I just wanted you to have some entertainment. I want, I wanted to bring you into my world at 9am on Saturday morning.
- [24:24]
Justin Verrier
I have to be honest though, it was pretty compelling. Not only just like watching Mobley face up guys and just like get around them like he's a wing scorer, but also just watching him power through guys this season has been pretty goddamn impressive. He's freezing guys just with like just jolting them back like he's on the offensive line at this point. And so I have Mobley as well at number one for all the reasons you guys laid up. It just made enough. We did this offensively that like, I do wonder if he was on a different team where he was a little bit more prioritized. Can he score like 25 and 10 and just be a little bit more than he was if he had the statistical production that I think is. Draws a little bit more attention, like, would he be on a bigger stage than he is right now? Just kind of doing all the dirty work defensively and then obviously defensively he's an absolute menace. I disagree slightly with Cade though. I hear you when you're saying like, oh, he's not a Luca level creator, but he's like one of the best. He's really good. Yeah, like he, he's. It's 20 and 10 at this point, which is like yes. Somehow become diminished at a certain point. Like, but I, I just think he's been very good. And we should talk about the Pistons overall. We were talking about the, the Celtics game and, and how they blew them out. And I turned that game on in the second quarter and they were winning. And I think the biggest, they did come back, but I think the, the biggest testament to what the Pistons have done this season is that I wasn't surprised that the Pistons were up in that game. They just, they've completely changed who they were. This is a team that lost the most games in NBA history last season. They've completely turned things around.
- [25:52]
Eddie Ocampo
I mean, they're fun, they're rock solid. They are a playoff caliber team through and through. And it is Cade's playmaking that gets them there. Like, I, I don't want to diminish what he's doing because again, he is clearly, if not one, then two. For me it's just like if we're comparing the highest level defensive play against the highest level offensive play, I don't know that he's quite meeting that threshold for, for the highest level offensive play. I think he's really good, but he's, there's a reason he's kind of among the, the lesser all stars who are making the team and not the first guys on the list with the Bullet.
- [26:22]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I think, look, I think Cade and you know, I might have been a little bit effusive in his offensive, especially creating his own shot. I don't think he's where he's ultimately going to be. I'm just saying this year he's shown an ability to attack one on one that people kind of questioned whether he even had. And now again, another thing he's improving upon is just his looking for his shot, coming off of the pick and roll. Like, I think in the past it was more of looking for that pass, but now he's looking for the shot getting guys, you know, sort of in jail, putting them on his hip. He's just so, and I, again, I, I, and I do think I'm projecting a bit in terms of, I think he's going to ultimately get to being like a really efficient offensive scorer. He's not there yet in terms of the peak efficiency. I just think, man, going into this season, the idea that this team would be average or above average on offense, I don't think any of us could have predicted. You know, I mean, granted they won like 14 games last year at one point, lost 30 in a row. I think it's, I just think it's been amazing, the turnaround. I think it's so obviously driven by this guy having the ball all the freaking time. And so for me, yeah, like I said, as the teammates get better, as the context get better, as the management has a better feel for what exactly you need around. I was about to say Luka, but Luka's the person that I think of not just in terms of his style, but like Dallas kind of like trial and error of the kinds of guys we want to do. We want a guy that handles the ball a lot or should Luka just be heliocentric? Does he need the defensive minded big or should we have a moxie cleber type like them sort of figuring out how to optimize Luka the best? And it coalescing last year and like look he has a breaking Kyrie on ball handling, and the rest of it is just defensive craziness. You know, I wonder if Detroit will figure out how to fully optimize Cade's individual talents and how that might, you know, impact his impact.
- [28:34]
Eddie Ocampo
I think they will. And we're already seeing them try new things, evolve, finally get some real spacing around him. It's not amazing, but Cade has basically turned Malik Beasley into a flamethrower. I think they are the single most prolific.
- [28:45]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I wanted to talk to you about Malik Beasley today.
- [28:48]
Eddie Ocampo
That's all I'm willing to say about him at this time.
- [28:51]
Justin Verrier
Cade, he's like your second best player right now.
- [28:54]
Eddie Ocampo
It's honestly insane. An incredible turn of events. From Malik Beasley, who I have been highly skeptical of over the years, Cade, to Malik Beasley is the most prolific three point combination in the league. The entire league.
- [29:06]
Rob Mahoney
Absolutely.
- [29:07]
Justin Verrier
Tough week for you. You had Rui Hachimura just playing on another level.
- [29:10]
Rob Mahoney
I don't know why you think the Rui thing is new when you were.
- [29:15]
Justin Verrier
You were down on Rui.
- [29:16]
Eddie Ocampo
I was down on the trade when the Lakers made it. But he's proven since he's been a Laker that he's a real player. Like, that's what happens sometimes.
- [29:24]
Justin Verrier
I wish we had. We could just like go back on the tape. Like we were doing the Gruden Grinder sort of things. Like, could we show Rob talking about Ruri Hachimura the playoffs in 2022, please?
- [29:34]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah. My contention was.
- [29:36]
Justin Verrier
What are you seeing here, Rob?
- [29:38]
Eddie Ocampo
That he's not a Nicola Jokic stopper. That's. That was my contention both then and now.
- [29:43]
Rob Mahoney
So we need a chat. GBT for our previous takes.
- [29:47]
Eddie Ocampo
We do not.
- [29:47]
Amy Poehler
We don't.
- [29:48]
Eddie Ocampo
We don't. We don't support that.
- [29:49]
Justin Verrier
Gemini.
- [29:50]
Eddie Ocampo
Absolutely not. One thing to flag on Cade again, not. Not to discredit anything that he's doing. He has a level of injury risk that Evan Mobley, historically to this point has not had.
- [30:01]
Rob Mahoney
This is a lot of games, basically.
- [30:03]
Eddie Ocampo
The first healthy season of Kate Cunningham's career. And we may look at that as a Steph Curry like blip at the beginning and then he takes off once he's finally able to be consistently healthy. Or it could be the kind of thing that dogs him for a long time. I really hope it's more the former.
- [30:17]
Justin Verrier
All right, so we both have, or all of us have, Mobley or Cunningham, one and two wise, what do you have at number three?
- [30:26]
Rob Mahoney
This wasn't really that hard for me. To be honest, I've turned around on this kid. It's Franz Wagner. He's my number three. I think the shot coming back or coming around or whatever we're calling. What's happened to the shot this year has been very encouraging. It sucked that he had to miss that big chunk with the injuries, but he looks like a freaking menace. You can't stop this guy from going downhill. He plays his ass off on defense. I don't think there's any question about that. Not afraid to fly in there to grab some Rebs as well. I just, I just think he's kind.
- [31:05]
Eddie Ocampo
Of, I don't know why, but I love Rebs. Why are we calling him Rebs all the time?
- [31:10]
Rob Mahoney
I don't know. Used to say when I was way, way, way younger. But it just came to me, the Rebs, he's, he's not afraid to get his nose dirty, you know, cleaning the glass. I just think he's an all around player who doesn't possess like some great weakness. Like you can give him the rock, he can dribble the rock. Right. Like the threes again, it bears mentioning the Magic were building a goddamn project, okay? I'm talking about government housing in the freaking playoffs. All right? It was horrible what these guys were doing, but France this year is, it's respectable. You know, nobody was asking this guy to be freaking Reggie Miller out there, but it's, it's respectable. And you combine that with his relentless, you know, rim attacks, I, I, to me, he's my guy.
- [31:59]
Eddie Ocampo
The three has been patchy. Like it is respectable sometimes. He's hit some big ones, some, some big shots. Over the course of Orlando season, he's.
- [32:07]
Rob Mahoney
Had some guard him.
- [32:09]
Eddie Ocampo
They, I think they do and I think where I, where I'm struggling with his shot a little bit and I, I love Franz's game. I also have him number three. Admittedly, three to four to me is really splitting hairs. There's two guys who are here, I think are very, very close. Eileen Franz, a little bit in part because, look, one of the times we did this exercise was in the middle of the Magic winning a ton of games in like December when Franz was the clear number one guy, when Paolo Bancaro was out of the lineup and he looked very comfortable doing exactly that thing. And ultimately I think he's going to get to the place where he's comfortable doing that. He's comfortable playing off of Paolo and picking his spots. You already see those elements of his game. He's great in transition. He's Great in driving as was laid out. The shot is a. Is a bit of a wild card and he's had some down months recently that are discouraging given the way he started. But ultimately I still think he is not a bad shooter and I think it is going to. I do think it's going to course correct over time. I know the percentages aren't quite there. I know it's. Clearly there's a confidence thing with him where he's just going through these ruts and having trouble kind of climbing his way out of them. But the playmaking is what it is. The relentlessness to the rim is what it is. That's really hard to get. And he's a player who just has a great feel and understands kind of how he fits into things.
- [33:23]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [33:23]
Justin Verrier
When we last did this, I think I also had him below Scotty Barnes, who I assume is who you guys have at number four. And part of that was just because it was so new and he really, the Magic didn't have anything one else to turn to at that point. Paula was out and so he was having a great moment. I was worried how much of that was going to continue, especially once Paulo was back in there. The fact that he's the one who has acquitted himself while Paulo has just not gotten right. I don't know if there are obliques or like one was just worse than the other. The injuries that they both had. But Franz has been able to rise above the mosh pit that is the Orlando Magic offense in a way that Paolo has Knight and so I got to give him credit for that. He's a big strong guy who's like shown another level of playmaking this year. I think if you wanted to lean Barnes though, which in the past I have is because of that playmate. He's just like an excellent passer for his size. My thing with Barnes was going into this season who I have number four. As I mentioned, I was hoping he could be more of a shot maker and I don't want to just like completely. I think he rest everything up.
- [34:24]
Rob Mahoney
He could be more of a shot maker.
- [34:25]
Justin Verrier
Justin, I don't want to rest everything on that three point shot, but that's just a huge thing for his development because it's obviously going to filter in to everything else that he does. And also like it really just calibrates like what he can be on offense for your team? Can he be a number one? And if he's going to be your go to ball handler, like are teams going to respect that are they not going to just like crash the paint and make things all difficult for all these other guys you're trying to bring in there? So I ultimately went. Wagner, 3. Barnes, 4. Rob, where are you?
- [34:56]
Eddie Ocampo
I'm the same. Was. What are you thinking at four?
- [34:59]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, so I reluctantly put Scotty Barnes there, and that's because I don't. I think Scotty Barnes is going to be a reluctant two. I think he's somebody who sees himself as an offensive engine, as a give me the ball for the lion's share of the possessions kind of guy, and I don't think his team will ultimately be served by that. And so that's why I'm like, man, like, obviously he's shown more than the next two guys that I had, you know, in the mix for this. I think he's shown more, a little bit more than one in particular. But in terms of who I like and who I'm like, look, this guy's a clear number two and he's going to become an elite level number two. I don't know that Scotty Barnes possesses. I don't know if that's in his mind frame yet. Maybe one day he'll wake up. Maybe Toronto will one day acquire a guy who's so clearly number one that Scotty Barnes will have to get his, you know, his act in order. Right. Um, but as it stands right now, he can make the argument that he's the best player on the team, and so therefore he should be controlling a lion's share of the possessions.
- [36:18]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah, I mean, he is the best player on the team. And even though they have some, you know, some diversified playmaking, it's going to get even more complex when they start incorporating Ingram next season. Ultimately, he does feel like he's pressing a little bit. The Raptors are also a team where he should be pressing a little bit and figure out what he can and can't do. Find those limitations. I think there's cost for that for a player like Barnes, in terms of the efficiency. Like, he isn't naturally a shot creator in the way that some of these other guys are. And Franz has had to learn some of those elements too. Like, it's not. He's not the most natural, like, pound the rock, create a step back jumper kind of player. He's had to sort of find that part of his game. The Barnes vs. Franz debate, though, to me is so much about, like, Scotty has this nebulous, like, pot like, lump of clay potential. He can do so many different things theoretically, you see flashes of them. And yet, when you're practically thinking about, where do you actually put this guy on the court? What kinds of players do you surround him with? What kind of role do you want him to play? Those are more complicated questions. And I think there's a clarity with Franz that I lean towards a little bit, that that clarity may trade off on potential. Like Scotty Barnes ultimately may have a higher ceiling if you get everything exactly right. I just don't know how to get everything exactly right with him. And so I lean Franz a little bit while still not so reluctantly putting Scotty at 4. I think he's had a pretty good season amid a very weird Raptors campaign. Overall, I think his defense has been a lot sharper. I'm still very impressed by Scotty Barnes. I just lean Franz a little bit.
- [37:43]
Justin Verrier
Yeah, Scotty sparks the imagination in a way that a guy like Franz probably doesn't at this point, which, honestly is a little bit to his credit because he's clarified who he is as a player right now. Yeah, 5 is interesting. I think you could go a lot of different ways here. Rob, who do you have?
- [37:59]
Eddie Ocampo
Alper and Shangun.
- [38:03]
Justin Verrier
Okay.
- [38:04]
Eddie Ocampo
Is that even.
- [38:06]
Justin Verrier
No, he's in the mix for sure. I just.
- [38:07]
Rob Mahoney
I wasn't expecting that spicy at all. I actually have sengun, but it's technically, for me, it's on a technicality, and to be honest with you.
- [38:18]
Eddie Ocampo
Wait, what is the technicality?
- [38:20]
Rob Mahoney
I wanted to put Jalen Johnson above him and Scotty Barnes.
- [38:23]
Eddie Ocampo
Okay, you can.
- [38:25]
Rob Mahoney
He just does not play. He's missed so many freaking games the last two years. If this guy would have played, call it 68 games the last two years, he's my. He's absolutely my number four here, for sure, but because of the injuries, man. And it's just been every single season of his career so far. Like, it's been major injury after major injury. I don't. But, like, had this guy been healthy, I'm putting him over Barnes. I'm putting him over sengun. I just think for me, in my mind's eye, he is that perfect number two. He will protect your paint when needed. He will be a vertical spacer. Like, as much as we love Scotty Barnes, he's not a vertical spacer. He's not a threat for the lobs. The guy has touch. The guy has feel. The guy has a playmaking ability. He's not afraid to get his driving game going. He has a high motor. I mean, we've talked about Jalen Johnson in the past on the pod. He's just freaking potential personified. But to be fair to Scottie and Sengun, these guys have just put it on the floor man, consistently basically since the day they got put on the court. These guys have especially rookie seasons. They overachieved like hell those two. And to now, you know, both guys, max contract guys and deserving of it, you know they, they made my list but God, I wanted to put Jalen Johnson in there so badly.
- [39:59]
Justin Verrier
I feel like Shingoon might be a little underrated at this point and I think you're right. Just the track record that he has kind of done it for at least three seasons at this point. And the big thing is just the fact that he's become credible defensively, maybe even beyond that this season is just a credit to like his progress. I didn't think he had it in them obviously. I think Adoka just switching up like how they're using him defensively have certainly played to his strengths. Like I always thought he was going to be the type of guy who's smart enough and just had like good enough hands that he can contribute enough so that like the hounding defensers defenders that they have on the perimeter would do most of the work. I think Shangun has been pretty good, pretty solid and that's just like another level that he just unlocked. And I almost wonder like what else does he have? Like can he get a three ball into the mix into all the other stuff that he's doing and then does that open up stuff for him more as kind of like a rim pusher and whatnot? Like there could be another level to his game. And so for that reason I certainly consider him at 5. I ultimately went Johnson for all the reasons was outlined but Shengun has been damn good this year.
- [41:01]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah, I think as far as the Johnson comp like Sengun is 19, 11 and 5 right now, he is much more the reason that Houston's half court defense is credible than and passable than he is. What's holding them back from not being elite and not contending at the highest levels like he is. He's what's getting their heads above water on a lot of these possessions and just in terms of the way that offense functions. So I give him a ton of credit for making the most of a pretty funky team that has some pretty weird spacing and some odd lineups at times because that's, that's what their personnel is and Sengun can thrive even in those circumstances. I think the one thing I'm a little worried about with him this year. And it's probably just kind of a fluky down thing for him is he's been a little less consistent on the, like, weird drives that he has and the little, like, in between shots, that's kind of been the bread and butter of his game. And he's just not hitting them as consistently as he has in the past. And so there's. There is a dip that comes with that in terms of the efficiency, but he's an important playmaker. He's structurally crucial to the way the Rockets play. And Justin, as you. As you kind of laid out, I put myself in the camp that thinks of him as more than credible defensively. I think he's really stepped up on that end and has become, like, an active contributor to one of the better defenses in the league.
- [42:13]
Justin Verrier
I think if you were to build a team, though, is where I ultimately lean Johnson, where it's like, Shen Gun. I still have the problem of, like, if. If I'm building around Shen Gun, do I have to actually build around him? Can I, like, use him to augment what I actually have? Whereas, like, if you were to flip the spots, like, Jalen Johnson would fit into what Houston is doing. Is Shen Goon and Trey Young going to really get me very far? I just don't know. And so Johnson is just like the prototypical power forward with wing level athleticism who in his own right is a really good pastor and creator. So that's why I went Johnson. The list is long as hell.
- [42:54]
Rob Mahoney
Get at this Twitter because y'all some of the most savage on Twitter. Get at this guy, please.
- [43:01]
Justin Verrier
I have Jalen Suggs also in the mix, who somehow his value is increasing as he just continues to nurse his injury.
- [43:09]
Eddie Ocampo
They need him so bad.
- [43:11]
Justin Verrier
Trey Murphy. Josh Giddy.
- [43:13]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [43:13]
Justin Verrier
Have you guys seen Josh Giddy this year?
- [43:15]
Rob Mahoney
He's not in my mix. He's not in my non.
- [43:18]
Eddie Ocampo
Honorable mention. I don't think I have a new.
- [43:21]
Rob Mahoney
Green is in my mix.
- [43:24]
Eddie Ocampo
Okay, now Waz is just. Now he's just appealing to the Houston fan base.
- [43:29]
Justin Verrier
There you go.
- [43:30]
Rob Mahoney
He's in my mix. He's. He wasn't gonna be five, but yeah, he's a credible mix guy.
- [43:38]
Eddie Ocampo
You gotta think about it.
- [43:39]
Justin Verrier
It's post all star. He's. He's playing well yet again. It's true.
- [43:43]
Eddie Ocampo
Uh, Justin, I would like to hear this revised Josh Giddy take. What do you have for us?
- [43:46]
Justin Verrier
Thank you. Rob, receiving me. Uh, I think if Josh Giddey was drafted 16th as opposed to sixth, we'd looked at him completely different. I think all of the reasons people don't like Giddey are the expectations thrust upon him and how much you have to pay him because he was set at a certain amount and thus you don't go down from there. Especially if you, after you trade for him. If you're the Bulls, I think if he was like an undrafted guy, if he was like a European guy, you're like, oh, this power forward passes like a point guard. And now he's actually hitting his threes. He just does so many in between things that I like, but like, you're not going to rely on him for anything. As soon as you're relying on Josh Giddy to do anything, then it becomes a disappointment. But like, he's helpful as all hell.
- [44:30]
Eddie Ocampo
This is where your argument falls apart is because Alper and Shangun was the 16th pick and he's more than helpful as all hell. He's an actual player who you do rely on. So granted the euro, the euro comp stands, but guys in the mid, in the mid first round of the lottery, late lottery do have sometimes distinguish themselves in that way.
- [44:49]
Rob Mahoney
I just think Giddy got moved by okc, who notoriously is obsessed with their own freaking farts when it comes to draft picks. They moved him because they were like, we do not have, we don't have a use for you. Uh, you need to have the ball in your hands. We can't optimize you. We have two guys who are clearly way better with the ball in their hands. We gotta move you. The Bulls are like, look, we'll change your context, let you have the ball space big, you know, spacing kind of bigs. And, and then what happened?
- [45:24]
Justin Verrier
He's thrived.
- [45:26]
Eddie Ocampo
Has he?
- [45:27]
Justin Verrier
In a very bad environment where they are tough to watch right now.
- [45:32]
Eddie Ocampo
I don't know that anyone in Chicago is necessarily thriving, but he's thrived. He's had his.
- [45:38]
Rob Mahoney
But Giddy was not in your mix.
- [45:41]
Justin Verrier
He's good. He's good.
- [45:43]
Rob Mahoney
But was he in your mix?
- [45:44]
Justin Verrier
In my mix for like the top five.
- [45:46]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [45:47]
Eddie Ocampo
Did you actually think about it?
- [45:49]
Justin Verrier
No, no. I think he's more in like the top. Christ 10 to 15.
- [45:54]
Rob Mahoney
I'm, I'm sure he's in the top 10.
- [45:57]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah. This is a pretty deep draft.
- [45:59]
Rob Mahoney
He's not in the top. He's not in the, he might not.
- [46:01]
Justin Verrier
Be in the top 10.
- [46:02]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah.
- [46:04]
Justin Verrier
Top 15.
- [46:05]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah.
- [46:06]
Justin Verrier
Herb Jones. I, I, I, Herb Jones.
- [46:08]
Eddie Ocampo
You mentioned Austin Reeves up top who went undrafted. Yeah.
- [46:13]
Rob Mahoney
Come on. Aaron Wiggins.
- [46:16]
Justin Verrier
I mean, I'd Rather giddy than. Than Wiggins. Although Wiggins is obviously a better role player.
- [46:20]
Rob Mahoney
You rather get it in Kaminga.
- [46:22]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah, yeah, that's a. That's an interesting one.
- [46:25]
Rob Mahoney
No, absolutely not.
- [46:27]
Justin Verrier
That's a. I think they're actually.
- [46:31]
Rob Mahoney
Either. And he doesn't try to.
- [46:34]
Justin Verrier
Jonathan Kaminga thinks that he's Kobe Bryant.
- [46:38]
Rob Mahoney
And he's actually Sean Great.
- [46:40]
Eddie Ocampo
I mean sh. Look, if he was Sean Kemp that would really be something.
- [46:45]
Rob Mahoney
So another thing I want to say about this draft, it's super, super deep. All the guys we just mentioned some other guys. Santi Alama, Sam Houser, Deuce McBride, Tre. Man, like these are like J. Huff. Like these are useful NBA players. Alvarado, full court Fitz Alum Davion Mitchell. What I do want to say about this draft class is I think that like in fans mind's eye when their team gets a draft pick they think they're going into a draft that's as deep as this. Yeah, that's what they think is going to happen when the truth of the matter is you usually get one third of this amount of legitimate NBA players in a given first round draft. These guys are all going to be second. These guys are all going to play in the league eight to 10 years.
- [47:46]
Eddie Ocampo
There are good actual players in the 40s and 50s in this draft. Like Aaron Wiggins is a great example but not just him but like Nemus K to like Jared Butler, Delano Band. Like these are not necessarily high level role players through and through but guys who you would not mind having on your roster. Isaiah Jackson is a good player who unfortunately like James Wiseman is hurt like Pacers big men cannot catch a break. But there's a lot of good stuff here.
- [48:08]
Rob Mahoney
Quentin Grimes.
- [48:13]
Justin Verrier
That's right.
- [48:14]
Eddie Ocampo
I'm going to be honest, if you told me on my team I could have either Josh Giddy or Corey Kispert. I think I might take Corey Kispert.
- [48:21]
Justin Verrier
Oh, get out of here.
- [48:23]
Eddie Ocampo
I'm just putting it out there. I'm just throwing it out.
- [48:25]
Justin Verrier
All right. Well you were right about how this podcast was going to be two hours long because minutes. Oh my God, it's going to be so long. This episode is brought to you by Indeed successful season starts with picking the right players for your team. Like with the Boston Celtics they've been able to put together a pretty good roster. Pretty deep, superstar driven two way players. They've got it right. And so if you want to hire the best players for your business and quickly you need indeed their sponsored jobs help you stand out and reach relevant candidates faster. Plus, with Indeed Sponsored jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts, and you only pay for results. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. Listeners of the show will get a 75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed.comringer MBA that's indeed.comringer MBA right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.comringermba Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need.
- [49:37]
Amy Poehler
This episode is brought to you by Rocket Money. The start of a new year is the perfect time to get organized, set goals and prioritize what matters most. For me, a top priority is financial wellness, which feels more important than ever. And that's where Rocket Money comes in. They show you all of your subscriptions right in one place and help you easily cancel the ones that you forget you've been paying for. Rocket Money also pulls together all of your spending across different accounts so you can clearly attract spending habits and where you can cut back. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spendings, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money's dashboard gives you a clear view of your expenses across all of your accounts. Easily create a personalized budget with custom categories to keep your spending on track. See your monthly spending trends in each category to know where your money is going. Get alerts if bills increase in price, there's unusual spending activity, or if you're close to going over budget. The new goals feature automatically saves money for you so you don't have to think about it. Pay off credit card debt, put away money for a house, or just build your savings. Rocket Money makes it easy. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of 500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Ringer today. That's RocketMoney.com Ringer this episode is brought.
- [51:02]
Waz
To you by Marvel Television's Daredevil. Born Again Charlie Cox returns as vigilante lawyer Matt Murdock and Vincent D'Onofrio as former mob boss Wilson Fisk. The darker side of Matt Murdock is revealed when he gains a new perspective on his role as the Daredevil and faces an internal struggle between justice and revenge. The devil's work is never done. Don't miss the two episode premiere of Born Again on March 4th only on Disney. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card One of the most useful things in my life lately has been my Apple Card. I really do love it. It's great for game nights, vacations, just life in general and applying. So easy, so quick. You can apply, see your credit limit offer, then start using your card in minutes. Do it while you're watching a basketball game. You can start making purchases before halftime even rolls around. I also love how I can get back up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase. That's more money for game tickets. I feel like I scored big time when I started using Apple Card. Applying the wallet app on your iPhone. Start using it right away with Apple Pay. It's that easy. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and.
- [52:16]
Justin Verrier
More at applecard.com all right, 2022 NBA Draft I still feel the same that I did going out of this draft, which is that if you are starting your team, you want Paula Banchero. If you already have your number one, you want Chad Holmgren. Do you guys feel any differently?
- [52:34]
Eddie Ocampo
I'm in the same boat. I mean, that's the way it went at the time.
- [52:37]
Rob Mahoney
I must confess, guys, I've adjusted my top two. I got J Dub as my number two.
- [52:46]
Eddie Ocampo
Whoa.
- [52:47]
Rob Mahoney
Just straight up again.
- [52:48]
Justin Verrier
Wait, behind Chet or.
- [52:51]
Rob Mahoney
No, he's behind Paolo. And it's again, it's the same principle. It's like Paolo and J Dub carry the rock. And J Dub in his case is. And Paolo too. These guys are hell of a defender, you know, hell of a team. Guys, I just think the offensive shot creation stuff cannot be understated. And you know, maybe I'm prison in a moment. Chet with the injury stuff again, you know, another year, another major injury being dealt with love, Chad. He's obviously clearly my number three, but I think J Dub has kind of leaped him and if like gun to his head. Sam Presti if you were like you have to trade one J Dub or Chet, who do you think he's trading first?
- [53:35]
Eddie Ocampo
J Dub. I think he's trading J Dub just cause if I had to guess Shay in the yes has Shea. I think what what Chet represents, while I agree with you, he's not a guy who's dominating the ball, creating in the way that J Dub does. If Chet hits his potential and he might like he's already well on his way. He's already an amazing rim Protector, he's already a credible threat from 3. He can already put the ball on the floor a little bit and make some things happen. If he becomes what he can be. It is so enormously valuable for the Thunder in a way that J Dub, if J Dub becomes a really high level creator, another, another like superstar level creator that's super valuable. But you do already have Shay, so there is some built in redundancy with those things that I think has to be accounted for.
- [54:18]
Justin Verrier
I, I think J Dub, despite being clearly better right now, also a little older and is just not as unique as Chet is. Like how do you find another seven foot shot blocker who could step out to three and handle the Rock a little bit? Like it's just like there's nobody out there. Like they're even. Despite the fact that our bigs are coming into league more now with more skills, it's just like Chester one on one. So I'm always going to lean to that.
- [54:42]
Rob Mahoney
I think for me it's the idea that the Thunder could just go out and get Hartenstein at a, you know, not a discount, but like it's not the end of the world that Chet Holmgren doesn't play an entire season, you know, and it's cuz they were able to go out and just get, effectively get a replacement center, you know, just go out there and get somebody who could do enough rim protection, clean your glass enough, not just get completely blown off the ball when the best, when he's guarding the best post players. And ultimately I don't think you could do that with what J Dub does. I don't think you could just go out in the off season and be like, look, I gotta supplement what J Dub does even around Shay and I'm just gonna go out in the market and get an all star wing in his 20s or whatever the case. I just think it's way harder to replace. And so as much as I love Chet's versatility, again, maybe it's just my big man bias, man.
- [55:44]
Eddie Ocampo
You're on a given agenda today.
- [55:46]
Rob Mahoney
You just put the, you can get their shit piecemeal. You can get it from different segments of your lineup and different segments of the.
- [55:55]
Eddie Ocampo
I, I don't disagree. I think the, the gulf between Chad Holmgren and Isaiah Hartenstein, who I like quite a bit, is more significant than you're laying out here. Like the Thunder are still amazing even with Hardenstein out there. They're going to be amazing if they have good bigs out there. Isaiah Hardenstein is not a pick him up off the scrap. He guy, he is a very good, like, I think in the top 100, we have him around, like, the 60 to 70 range as a player ranked in the entire league. He's making $30 million a year. Like, they were able to get him because of their unique financial situation, not because those guys are just out. How many teams could use an Isaiah Hartenstein, frankly? And it's the Thunder's great luxury that they have both of those guys and can, yes, slow play Chet's recovery from injury, let him take his time, get him back when he's feeling right, and now play those guys both together and separately. Ultimately, I just think, like, I love Chet's game. I love his edge. I love what he can be.
- [56:50]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, yeah.
- [56:51]
Eddie Ocampo
And if we're betting on potential, I think J Dub is probably a little closer to the best he's going to be than Chet is closer to the.
- [56:57]
Rob Mahoney
Best he's going to be. He's done. He's no longer going to fly.
- [57:06]
Justin Verrier
Thunder fans, I do think, like, you're starting to see signs that J Dub might be brushing up against how well his efficiency scales. His whole thing was just that, like, he takes very good shots and he makes almost all of them. And now I love the versatility, both offensively and defensively. We should point out that he was playing center for extended stretches earlier this season. You're not just going to go get that anywhere. But I think this postseason is going to be big for, like, really kind of calibrating where he is as a player right now, because I think that Thunder are going to need him. And last postseason, you could write that off as maybe being like, first postseason, just getting through the jitters. Like him playing at an all star level in those series, in a second round series against the Lakers, for instance, like, that could be the difference between the Thunder winning a title and not. And so we should say just like, let's just stop here. We love both of these guys. These guys are awesome and fun, and the whole, like, let's do group interviews stuff is very, very cutesy and we love it.
- [58:03]
Eddie Ocampo
You don't think you've railed against it many times on this podcast?
- [58:07]
Rob Mahoney
I'm not gonna lie. I've come over to the Justin side interview dynamic is just like, it's. It's become sticky to me. It's. It's. It's camp at this point. The one they did, very theater kid to me at this point, putting towels.
- [58:21]
Justin Verrier
On Nick Gallo, who's like a great sport, was. That was a Good bit.
- [58:25]
Eddie Ocampo
See that?
- [58:26]
Justin Verrier
But that's an actual bit. They're not just hanging out is not a bit. But anyway, we love these guys. I, I would just put Holmgren slightly ahead of James.
- [58:33]
Rob Mahoney
So I think behind these three guys is where it gets like, well, let's.
- [58:37]
Eddie Ocampo
Let'S, let's stop there. Let's iron out who our top three are individually because I don't think we ever actually lay that out. I am Paolo, Chet, J D, J Dub.
- [58:46]
Rob Mahoney
Chet.
- [58:46]
Eddie Ocampo
Okay. And Justin, what do you.
- [58:47]
Justin Verrier
Same as Rob. Paolo, Chet, J Dub.
- [58:50]
Rob Mahoney
Okay.
- [58:51]
Eddie Ocampo
I want to, I want to talk about Paolo a little bit before we move on because he's having a down season. Yes, he's really struggled with the spacing in Orlando. Like, has not been able to get to his spots very effectively, settling for a lot of tough mid range looks. I, I am still the believer. It takes a little bit of imagination to get there right now with the way that Orlando is spacing the floor. But I think he can be efficient enough to be a true superstar when he gets the benefit of that spacing. It's not dissimilar in some ways. From Cade last year to Cade this year, you put some guys who can actually knock down shots around him, all of a sudden those lanes are clear. All of a sudden the game makes a lot more sense. He has a good feel. There's so many things that he has in terms of the fundamentals of his style and skill set that I believe in and that you can't teach. I just think he's not good enough right now to overcome the limitations of the Magic offense.
- [59:42]
Justin Verrier
Yeah, in some ways he's a victim of his own uniqueness in that you just want to empower him to be the best version of the ball handler, the kind of like bigger LeBron type that he is. Not LeBron, but just like certainly in that mold, is just like a big playmaker. But you've seen to Rob's point, when he doesn't have the requisite shooting around him, when Franz isn't popping in the way that he has this season, he just struggles a bit. The turnovers mount up. The inefficiency has been pretty stark at times. Like we talked about it with Cade, like, Paulo is still struggling to get through that level of scoring. And so I bet on the talent every single time. Like, if anything, he just looks like he's popping more as an athlete as he's like honing his body in NBA systems. But you're right, he has been disappointing this year. And so that's obviously a factor, but.
- [60:31]
Eddie Ocampo
Still number one, at least for me. Like, he's, he is still that kind of talent and that kind of guy.
- [60:36]
Justin Verrier
What do you guys have at 4? Because I think this is when it gets a little interesting.
- [60:41]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah. What were you thinking? Was. You seemed like, seemed like the 45 was heavy on your mind.
- [60:46]
Rob Mahoney
It is. I'm still Keegan Murray. I still.
- [60:50]
Eddie Ocampo
Wow.
- [60:51]
Rob Mahoney
Still. Still holding out hope that Keegan Murray can ultimately fulfill his destiny as, you know, the sort of movement shooting, occasional ball handling, quick hitter, passer. Just the ultimate IQ guy. It's just a matter of when the shot is shotting and when it's not. Because when it's not, he just feels kind of useless. Right. Like, it's not like he overwhelms people with athleticism. He needs to be leveraging that shot, you know, in conjunction with, you know, the iq. But I'm, I'm still, I'm still a believer, man. And more so than guys like Jabari Smith, quite frankly, who are, you know, he's basically the opposite of Keegan Murray. It's like a lot of physical stuff, hard work and all of that, but, like, not the best field guy, not the highest IQ guy, specifically on offense. Um, but I, I still like Keegan Murray. And Dyson Daniels is my number five, man. I put Dyson Daniels.
- [62:06]
Eddie Ocampo
I'm so proud of him.
- [62:06]
Rob Mahoney
He's my number five. I dropped Jabari out. I get it. And I know there he still has his major fans, and I'm just like, he's kind of positionless. He's, you know, at first it was like last year and two years ago, it was like, oh, is he best suited at the 5? He's a 4. We know he's not a 3 because he can't dribble for shit. The shot comes and goes. Like, I, I, you know, Jabari has just never been my favorite. I love the tenacity on defense. I love that this guy cares. I love that he plays with a high motor. It's just he's never really put it together for me. Whereas Dyson Danes, when I watch this guy harass all of the best perimeter players in the NBA relentlessly, guys, some of the best ball handlers, shot creators in the league. I'm watching them be like, I'm not dribbling it up the court this time. I'm going to let my other guard dribble it up. I'm going to get a screen, get, get myself some room. Like, yo, he is insane at what he does. Then the Offense, the shot has to, you know, but he's, he's driving with more confidence, even taking it with more confidence. He's, he's rounding out my top five, y'all. I know I went on a lot, but. Yeah.
- [63:15]
Eddie Ocampo
Oh, yeah, you're good. I also have Dyson Daniels, but I haven't met four. I have another player at five, even freakier than me. Okay, even freakier than you, another player at five, and then I have four honorable mentions. And none of those players are Keegan Murray. I'm going to be honest with you. I. I have been. I want Keegan Murray to happen so badly. Like, I want him to be good. And I reluctantly, over the course of this season, have been putting him more in the, in our dude index a little bit more as a, as a player than a guy. You know, like, he, he might, he just might not be a guy. He's a, a perfectly worthy part of your rotation. The shot is going to come and go. The defense, I think overall is pretty solid. His size is helpful. The, the ball handling. Everything you mentioned was like, I want that to be a cohesive skill set more than it is. And sometimes it's just. You get these bits and pieces from him, but not the whole deal. And I'm, I'm still kind of waiting for the whole deal.
- [64:10]
Justin Verrier
Listen, this ain't the California Classic out here. Like, I know he shot it very well at summer league, but it just hasn't translated to NBA games for whatever reason. It looks good. You expect it to happen every single season, but it might be like five to 10 years into his career where he's still not making these shots. We're still calling him a, a shot making 3 and D type of wing player. And so I get it. But. And we should mention, like, 2022 wasn't that long ago. We're still banking on potential for a lot of these guys, of course, and like, what they could ultimately be and that' I had Jaden Ivy number four on my list. Unfortunate injury. I'll be honest, I wasn't a Big Ivy guy coming into this season. It just struck me as a lot of an older type of drive the ball guard off the bounce that might struggle to play with, especially a guy like Kate who needs the ball in his hands. But, like, the shooting is for real and he's been able to work that athleticism and kind of meld into what Cade and what they're doing as a team. And so being able to thrive in a team context has me looking at him a Little differently. And so I would bet on him as a talent in the same way that the Pistons did when they were drafting him to begin. Then it gets pretty interesting pretty quickly. I had two guys in the mix here. I had Dyson Daniels, who I will agree is the better player right now. The steals are absolutely incredible. Defensively he's. He might be on the short list for defensive player of the year. I haven't looked at it, but he's certainly going to get some looks on that.
- [65:29]
Eddie Ocampo
And definitely all defense. I would think even a position, even on a positionless ballot, he's going to be an all defense lock.
- [65:34]
Rob Mahoney
Gotta be all defense.
- [65:36]
Justin Verrier
But unfortunately if we're drafting from this point forward, I have to mention, just because of where I am, I do think Shade and Sharp is a talent unlike anything you've seen. He had 38, 8 and 5 last night against the Wizards, so this is a lot of recency bias. He also had the dunk of the year, which he pretty much does once a month.
- [65:54]
Eddie Ocampo
That was really something. I got us. Look, I, I love when guys successfully land the dismount, but I also love when they dunk so hard and so aggressively they cannot land on their feet. And Shaden Sharp occasionally does that and it's spectacular.
- [66:08]
Justin Verrier
Listen, he's not good. Like right now he is not playing particularly well. He's coming off the bench because he won't guard and he's just kind of been a mess where he's just so. Just wishy washy by nature. It's tough to really spur him to really give a shit. And I, I do think that's the difference though between him being like an all star caliber player and being what he has been thus far, which is just like a disappointing athlete project type because he leaps better than probably most players in the NBA and he has a shot. Two things that like if you're to draw up like a perfect scoring wing, you would want both of those things. And so I get it. Not right now, but I bet on that all the time because if you could just like speak to him. If someone could just like get in his face and yell at him about sandwiches and stuff, like something good could happen. So I'm betting on him.
- [66:56]
Rob Mahoney
Perhaps trade him to Los Angeles. Maybe that'll kick his butt into gear and get him to start taking things more seriously. What I do like about Justin and what I do like about Justin's picks is that outside of our top three, in terms of the rest of the people that I was considering, Shayden Sharp and Jaden Ivy are the only two guys who I've ever seen overwhelm NBA defenses with their talent. You know, like sometimes like Jaden Ivey's talent just pops off the screen where he has the ball at the free, at the three point line, one dribble, he's at the rim and he left the dude if that was in front of him in the dust. That is like, you know, that's the kind of stuff that makes you into NBA, that just vaults you to NBA superstardom when you can harness it on a consistent basis. And the same with Shaydon Sharpe where it's like he's combining athleticism with this deep ass range every now and again in a way that just, you know, it just looks like something made in the lab. It's just, you know, especially for Sharpe, it's just so inconsistent. Man, this guy is just so up and down. And watching Dyson Daniels guard for a whole year has kind of made me into a, a bit of a cult member.
- [68:19]
Eddie Ocampo
Well, welcome the the Kool Aid is being poured for all dice and Daniels cult members returning. And perspective, we're here for you. I really like Jaden Ivy. I think, I think that is an inspired pick and especially as we're saying relative to this stage of the redraft, could be an out and out star by the time all is said and done. Like does have that burst, does have that talent and I think gets it in a way that Shaden Sharpe has not yet gotten it. And I worry about that with Shaden, to be honest with you. I worry about how narrow his game can be. I clearly worry about the defense. I just see a guy who like has not established a firm understanding of what he's supposed to be doing in an NBA context yet. And maybe he'll either get that or he'll become so talented he doesn't have to get that. Like so productive and so undeniable, he doesn't have to get it. I would love either of those results, but I just don't see either of them being super likely right now. And so I'm, I'm not betting against Shane Sharpe, but I'm betting on someone who's a little more stable and a little more reliable. And so at 5, I have Walker Kessler who was the 22nd pick in the draft, who I think is going to be the anchor of a top 10 defense sooner than later. Basically as soon as the Jazz decide they want to compete for something and he is their starting center, they will be a credible defense. And I, I I do put a lot of stock in that. I do put into sort of like choose your destiny situation between either Ivy or Shaden Sharp or I would say the rest of the players you're looking at as far as honorable mentions are mostly other bigs. It's mostly like Jalen Duran, Mark Williams who we've talked about the caveats with him a lot over the course of the last few months. You can throw Christian Brown in there. Tari Eason I think is deserving of a look but his even as someone who is a huge Eason booster pain.
- [70:00]
Rob Mahoney
Injuries, Benedict Matheran, a lot of great players in this draft sniff for sure.
- [70:05]
Eddie Ocampo
Andrew, Andrew Nemhard, maybe Max Christie breaks through this group at some point if his career really takes off. But I like what Kessler gives you as a rim protector where he's not. He's not a chet level guy as far as defending the basket but as far as prospects go, maybe one of the next in line.
- [70:22]
Justin Verrier
Yep, those are the names I had down for honorable mentions too. Let's look to 2023 now. Number one. This is a tough one.
- [70:32]
Rob Mahoney
Amen Thompson.
- [70:35]
Eddie Ocampo
Number one, Victor Wembanyama next. Number two. Amen Thompson next. Is anybody going to make an argument to the contrary?
- [70:42]
Justin Verrier
Look, look, I think it's closer than you think.
- [70:44]
Rob Mahoney
I was a Brandon Miller fiend as you guys know. Watched one SEC tournament game and declared myself an expert. And you know he hasn't disabused me of that since coming into the league. Like I love his game. I just think Amend Thompson with the athleticism plus the feel and the IQ plus the motor just he's gotta be my number two.
- [71:10]
Justin Verrier
Just here's the case for Miller. I know exactly what he is probably going to be in the NBA. Like the Paul George comps which were played for laughs ad nauseum were obviously true. Like he just has that sort of ease about him moving around the court. He has good vision we hope down the road and the shooting translated immediately. Right now I think you're at a down for him just because he's playing in these funhouse mirror offenses with Charlotte where he's taking 11 threes a game which is just stretches efficient to the point where like no one's going to shoot particularly well when you're just basically changing your game at that point. I just, I think he's going to be a two way guy who is going to be a good score and frankly like I could see Charlotte pivoting to him being their number one and trading Lamel down the Road. But you unfortunately.
- [71:57]
Rob Mahoney
Did you pick him over a men Thompson?
- [71:59]
Justin Verrier
You know, I was considering it and then I turned on the Rockets game last night and I was like, God damn fucking good. Thank you Wise. It's just, I mean we should.
- [72:12]
Rob Mahoney
I feel you.
- [72:13]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah.
- [72:14]
Justin Verrier
A man is at like peak fervor. Everyone's frothing at the mouth right now and.
- [72:21]
Eddie Ocampo
But this is a pro Brandon Miller podcast and it has been such a bummer that he's been out with that wrist injury. I think it's season thing if I'm not mistaken. I think he had surgery on it. So very tough to not have him get these developmental opportunities when he's shown so much already. I think the thing you said, Justin, that sticks out to me is the two way nature of his play where when we talk about the Paul George comp, it's all about the fluidity, the jumper. But he has some young Paul George defensive chops too. Like a really good instinct for how to pressure. He actually puts in work and plays up into guys, which is not something that everyone on the Hornets does. And so I love where Brandon Miller could go from here. I just can't even imagine where Ahmed Thompson can go from here. That is very.
- [72:59]
Justin Verrier
That's.
- [73:00]
Eddie Ocampo
That's a thrill.
- [73:01]
Justin Verrier
Well here I think that is the debate though. Like are we going to get to the point where we. What. What is a man offensively right now? It's thrilling because he could be absolutely anything but like let's say they trade for Katie next year. Is it disappointing when like we need a men to hit a three and he's not doing it or like hey, Amen. Like create some offense and it's like I. He can but like maybe not into the level that you need him to. That's. That's the case. I still go amen over Miller but like you really need to find out who he is offensively because obviously defensively he's just an absolute menace.
- [73:35]
Eddie Ocampo
Hold on, I'm getting, I'm getting some data from Amen Thompson propaganda central. Are you aware, Justin Barrier, that this month, the month of February. Amen Thompson shooting 35% from 3. 35%. Look, that is, that is the. The highest of all high water marks for a Thompson brother.
- [73:54]
Justin Verrier
Sure.
- [73:55]
Rob Mahoney
This is just the beginning, man. I'm telling y'all. I, I think ultimately sounds like a going to be one of. He's going to be one of these guys who gets to the basket. A Jimmy Butler. A Jimmy Butler type. That's what I think. He can be ultimately a More athletic, explosive Jimmy Buckets. That's what I think. No, he's never going to be some world beating shooter. 48% from the corners and all of that stuff. But in terms of having the ball in his hand, being a forceful downhill type of player, forcing the issue down there and overwhelming defenders, Absolutely think he could be a Jimmy Butler type.
- [74:40]
Eddie Ocampo
Jv. For our. When we did the Mailbag the week you were out, someone asked us to predict the 2031st team, all NBA. And I put Amen on my list. Do you think that's crazy that he could be a first team guy by 2030?
- [74:55]
Justin Verrier
I mean, if this podcast is now one of the more prominent media entities out there. Yeah, I could. I could certainly see it. I thought you were going to ask.
- [75:03]
Eddie Ocampo
Me how our influence. You mean?
- [75:05]
Justin Verrier
Yes, that's right. I thought you guys were going to ask me how many chicken nuggets I could eat in one sitting.
- [75:10]
Eddie Ocampo
That's already been asked and answered. We know that one.
- [75:14]
Rob Mahoney
Okay, so our top 30. We all have the same top three.
- [75:19]
Justin Verrier
Yes.
- [75:21]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah. Victor. Amen. Brandon Miller. I think four is pretty chalky too, but you guys may feel different.
- [75:28]
Rob Mahoney
Four was chalky for me. Maybe not.
- [75:30]
Eddie Ocampo
Derek lively. Derek Lively.
- [75:32]
Justin Verrier
4.
- [75:33]
Rob Mahoney
That's easy for me. That was done. That was just easy for me.
- [75:38]
Justin Verrier
Don't love the injuries, but.
- [75:40]
Rob Mahoney
No, don't love the injuries, but you know what I do love? Just rim protection, playing space out on the floor, rebounds vertically spaces, has good hands, decent touch around the basket. Just literally needs to get stronger. Like he gets some strength to him. Man, this guy is gonna be so freaking good. Um, I end up going with Scoot at number five.
- [76:10]
Justin Verrier
Let's go.
- [76:11]
Eddie Ocampo
Whoa.
- [76:11]
Rob Mahoney
I wanted, I wanted to take Asar Thompson, who's been emergent I feel like in the past month or so.
- [76:20]
Eddie Ocampo
Don't worry, we're gonna talk about him some more coming up.
- [76:23]
Rob Mahoney
I think Scoot has finally looked like an NBA guard finally. And in both his shot selection, his shot accuracy, it's just coming along slowly but surely. And so he earned my number one cause just again, his role is being defined in a way that a SARS isn't yet. And that's why I went with Scoot.
- [76:53]
Justin Verrier
I think Scoot has recalibrated his ceiling to where if you had asked me this earlier in the season, it might say like maybe a bench guy to. I think he could be a pretty good starter at this point. If anything, I think that's the most likely outcome at this point. This guy works hard. Like, I think he's A good kid who is about the right stuff, who wants to be very good. And in times like I think he hasn't lived up to his reputation in part because he's so hard on him. And I think things kind of spiral pretty quickly. But you're right, I think once he got the shot down, you've seen things kind of filter from there. And so like I think scoring at the basket is still going to be a pretty big hurdle for him just. But he's even like learning new angles and finding crafty ways to get around that. It's almost like he realized that he's not going to be an above the rim sort of guy. The type of athlete that I think a lot of us expected him to be, but he's already gotten that. And if anything his fall from grace is almost like hammered that home to the point where he's now solving some of those things maybe a little bit more quickly than you expect. And so I, I see a lot of this is the ceiling, but like a Mike Conley type of like kind of trajectory for him. If you looked at Mike Conley coming into the league, 19 year old speed demon who really took a while his second contract to figure everything out, I can see that as being maybe like the mold for Scoot down the road where he's like cerebral fringe all star on a good year, but ultimately is just like a good solid guard. You want to orchestrate your offense.
- [78:18]
Eddie Ocampo
I love the sound of that. And I think to the extent that he's shown any of that capacity so far, it's been in fits and starts with the floater, you know, like he is learning how to navigate when he isn't getting all the way to the rim. Like what he can do, what are his options, what can, what kind of point guard can he realistically be? I love the way you laid that out, Justin, because you have seen a transformation in his game and overall a great couple months from him now where he is stacking good week on good week on good week. That's really reassuring. The turnaround with the shot, which is I would say one of the most dramatic of any we've seen in the NBA this season in terms of his building confidence as a three point shooter. That's starting to feel real, that's starting to feel concrete, that's starting to feel like the kind of thing he can use as an anchor for the rest of his game. The reads are kind of what I have my eye on and that's, that's where you know, you like Mike Conley doesn't probably get enough credit for just his ability to cleanly facilitate professional level offense. And Scoot Henderson is figuring out how to do that. And I've loved what we've seen from Scoot this year. It's just that the bar coming off of last season was so low that I, I don't think I would take him in the top five if we're going to redraft this group.
- [79:24]
Justin Verrier
Yeah, I agree. And so I think there's a couple of different guys you could look at here. I ultimately went with a Saar just in the hopes that he could be something close to a man.
- [79:34]
Eddie Ocampo
Same.
- [79:35]
Justin Verrier
Yeah. And like, I mean, him just like jolting Jayson Tatum and having him like just doing dance moves out there last game is certainly a compelling case.
- [79:45]
Eddie Ocampo
And this has been, you know, not only is Scoot having a great time in 2025, this is probably the best offensive month of a Sar Thompson's career. So far. He's looked really good and really active as the Pistons have been figuring things out offensively. His ability to work off of Cade is what always catches my eye. Like, he's such a smart cutter. He knows how to leverage the fact that teams aren't guarding him against them. Like, he's getting that kind of first step before he even gets the ball from Cade on the cut. And so he's just catching everybody by surprise every single time. The one that hurt me was not being able to select Kayson Wallace in this spot. I love Case and Wallace, but if you're thinking about these great defensive guards and wings, Asar Thompson is a potentially pretty special defender and maybe already a pretty special defender. And Kayson Wallace is a very good, very tenacious one, but isn't bringing you the size and the flexibility and the mystery box kind of potential that Asar Thompson has.
- [80:38]
Rob Mahoney
He's not above Bilal Koulibale for me.
- [80:41]
Eddie Ocampo
No.
- [80:41]
Rob Mahoney
Jason Wallace? No.
- [80:42]
Eddie Ocampo
That's disrespectful.
- [80:44]
Rob Mahoney
I like the talent with Koulibale.
- [80:47]
Eddie Ocampo
Yes, I do. I love the talent with Koulibaly. He's certainly an honorable mention. Asar though, like, I've been trying to parse the difference between him and Amen a lot this season. Like, figure out like what it is that separates these guys. And what I have landed on is that Asar Thompson plays more like a wing than Amen does. And Amen plays somehow simultaneously both like a point guard and a center, and that's what makes his game so strange. And Asar, by contrast, can feel a little More conventional defense, first wing who can't quite shoot yet. Like we've seen that prospect before. But the similarly out of this world athleticism just applied in slightly different ways. Still is a really intriguing prospect.
- [81:26]
Rob Mahoney
Has way more juice with the Rock in his hand. It just feels like more dynamic. No Grady Dick. Love. Just kidding. Just wanted to say Grady Dick, he's.
- [81:37]
Justin Verrier
On my short list.
- [81:39]
Rob Mahoney
Anthony Black.
- [81:40]
Eddie Ocampo
But you are an aficionado of a Dick joke.
- [81:41]
Rob Mahoney
I feel like he had a moment Grady Dick being on the short list. Get it? I feel like Anthony Black had a moment eight months ago where, you know, Orlando felt ascendant. I mean Orlando like three months ago, these young guys. And, and yeah, it's just, it's fizzled. Are you still excited about Anthony Black?
- [82:12]
Eddie Ocampo
I'm a little wait and see. I. I like some of what he brings to the table. But he's another one of these guys who's a little hard to judge within Orlando's overall struggles and overall systemic concerns and overall lack of spacing on another team. I think he. A lot of what he does would be a lot cleaner. Like he is such a flow, open court kind of player and they do not have a lot of flow or open court right now.
- [82:33]
Justin Verrier
That's right. Yeah. I think he would be the type of player that every team would love to have. Unfortunately, the Magic are not going to give him up. If anything, they're going to sign him to an extension that actually decreases and has a team option on the end of it in the very near future. And so if anything like he's going to be trapped in sort of the boxes that we see him now where I think he's going to be a terror defensively. But like what does he offensively. Probably just a good playmaker who's shooting will probably always kind of frustrate you because it's not on the level where it needs to be. He's on my short list. Brandon Przemski playing inspired next to Jimmy Butler. So he's had a good one to two months at this point. Grady Dick. I had Taylor Hendricks, we should mention didn't play this year because of the gruesome injury, but I think he was on the verge of turning the page there. Case and Wallace Koulibale, Damani Kamara.
- [83:22]
Eddie Ocampo
I was gonna say I was waiting for it.
- [83:23]
Justin Verrier
He's good advocate Walker.
- [83:28]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah. But the Taylor hendricks, Jairus Walker, 8, 9 picks in this draft, they do loom large as these guys who could have something to their games but just have not had a Ton of opportunity yet. One, because Taylor Hendricks is injured, as you said, Justin. Two, because Jairus Walker plays for Rick Carlisle. And that's sometimes the way it goes when you're a young player. So who knows what those guys will be. I honestly couldn't tell you, Rob.
- [83:50]
Rob Mahoney
I noticed you haven't mentioned your favorite. You know, that nice red Keonte George.
- [83:57]
Eddie Ocampo
Look, I, I never claimed ownership of Keonte George's prospects. I never did that.
- [84:04]
Justin Verrier
That's a million dollar idea, by the way. Keonte.
- [84:08]
Eddie Ocampo
There you go. We're just throwing them out today. Like this is if, if you're a VC out there, you're getting a lot of good stuff from group chat.
- [84:17]
Justin Verrier
So the last one we have on the board, 20, 24, you can convince me of any five players in the first or second round.
- [84:26]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah.
- [84:26]
Justin Verrier
So Stefan Castle is going to be the rookie of the year. Is this better or worse than Malcolm Brogdon? When he wanted. When Embiid was hurt that year, I looked at the statistical cases. They're actually pretty similar. But Brogdon made his three in Castle. If anything, he's hitting right on to the rookie ball.
- [84:43]
Rob Mahoney
I feel like Brogdon was pretty old when he came out though, right?
- [84:46]
Eddie Ocampo
He was, yeah. Yeah.
- [84:48]
Rob Mahoney
So that's the. I guess that's the only freaking difference because, like, realistically, on a potential. I didn't know. Nobody ever saw Brogdon as like, oh, this guy is going to just get exponentially better as his career progress. Even as a rookie, it felt like, all right, he's like a nice, sensible player who kind of plays above his head for his age in the NBA because rookie point guards usually just get destroyed and cooked and he didn't. Um. And so, you know, we gave him rookie of the year and a weak draft class. I feel like Castle, you know, people feel like he has a very high upside, which is exciting, you know, to, to have Brogdon production as a rookie with all of that upside. But like, if somebody told me they would still take SAR number one overall, like, he showed flashes of being like a defensive.
- [85:34]
Eddie Ocampo
Yes.
- [85:35]
Rob Mahoney
You know, star.
- [85:36]
Eddie Ocampo
Keyword defensive. Yes. Defense. Defense, defense. Only.
- [85:43]
Rob Mahoney
Decent little touch from us who.
- [85:44]
Justin Verrier
Will probably be a catch and shoot three pointer shooter. Maybe from the corners, maybe a little bit more.
- [85:50]
Rob Mahoney
This guy can I, like, I'm.
- [85:52]
Eddie Ocampo
I'm worried about the stretch as like the fulcrum of his game. Right. If that's what you are on offense, you've got to be a pretty damn good shooter. And I don't know that he's ever going to get to that point. So I'm. He's still going to be in the mix here because he. Look, he is a project. Clearly he was drafted with that intention. SAR is still so, so young. I do think Castle is probably going to win Rookie of the Year. I also have him just straight up number one in my redraft because of that potential. I know it's an unconventional case a la Malcolm Brogdon, but I know a motherfucker when I see one, and this guy is a motherfucker. Like, I love the energy and the edge and the way he plays the game. I love how much veterans seem to appreciate playing with him. And if you're going to chart the course for a player like that who has this great feel, who comes on the court and immediately makes an impact, I just kind of trust that the thornier parts of Castle's skill set are going to round out a little bit. The shot is not there 28% from three this season. I think he's going to get a little better. I don't think it's ever going to be the centerpiece of what he's doing, but he's such a good. He's already a good driver. He's already a good cutter. He's already an in your face defender. I think he's going to have a better career than a Malcolm Brogdon type will. And so when we're thinking of back when we're looking back on Rookie of the Year winners, it's going to stand out a little bit less because I ultimately think he's just going to be a really good pro.
- [87:09]
Justin Verrier
Yeah, the shot is something that we're going to have to keep track of. Also not really an explosive athlete in the way that I was expecting.
- [87:17]
Eddie Ocampo
I don't know. He wants to dunk on everybody.
- [87:20]
Justin Verrier
Yeah, but he doesn't have that like just absolute, like step on the pedal, quick first step.
- [87:26]
Eddie Ocampo
The Jaden Ivy acceleration that he doesn't quite have that he's just a little.
- [87:31]
Justin Verrier
Bit more crafty and cerebral than I was expecting. But that's not necessarily a knock on him. I think he's actually quite good there. And for that reason, I would have him 1, 2. He just has like, really good feel and being able to play off of veterans. And you're right, Rob. I think getting the Chris Paul seal of approval, like, I think that means something. And so definitely I think he has the most potential and if anything, like, probably the most productive, I guess we should say, of these players. And he was playing good On a good team for whatever stretch that was. I mean, the spurs were in the play and mix up until more recently. Is struggling right now. I. I do think he's hitting a little bit of a rookie wall. His minutes have kind of gone up and down as a result of that. But I still believe in him, so I still have him. 1. I have Sar too, though. I just. I also like. Like, in addition to. I think the shot mechanics look sound ultimately, I agree that, like, maybe if he isn't shooting well, then what is he doing for you? Offensively, I do like that his athleticism is proportional to his size. I love this with bigs where they just like, they look and move more like a wing than like a big man. For instance, like a Zach Edie. And so maybe I'm just caught up in that. The fact that he could be a 3 and D center. I do think it's funny that we like bag on Miles Turner for being this exact player. But like, Alex are going number two in our 2024 redraft. But this is where the 2024 class is at this point.
- [88:51]
Rob Mahoney
I think Miles Turner gets bagged on because the three indeed never met on the.
- [88:57]
Eddie Ocampo
They were ships in the night. I don't know what happened there. But they really. They really didn't meet.
- [89:04]
Rob Mahoney
Never met. By the time he became reliable scoring and shooting threes and stuff, like, the defense was just gone. And it's sad. So, yeah, Sarn Castle, everybody's top two. Reed Shepherd's still my number three.
- [89:20]
Eddie Ocampo
I do not have Sar in the top two.
- [89:22]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, you don't. Oh, you don't have. Wow. Rob hates sar.
- [89:26]
Eddie Ocampo
I don't hate him. I. Look, there's just some guys who, you see especially I just hates craps. On the contrary, I have Zachary Rizachet at number two. So I'm all about it. I'm just. I'm just going for a different region. I'm going for a different variety. I'm going for that beef Bourg onion. You know, like, I'm. I'm out here in a different way.
- [89:47]
Justin Verrier
Speaking of. Can't make their threes on Zach.
- [89:51]
Eddie Ocampo
He has been making his threes lately, which is, I think, part of the case. Right. A little bit.
- [89:56]
Justin Verrier
32.
- [89:57]
Rob Mahoney
For two weeks he's been. He's been making threes.
- [89:59]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah, look, it's a. It's a meaningful improvement. If we're talking about rookies, they're always going to be small sample sizes. This month he's shooting 45% from three. He's really coming on stronger that it's gonna look. He's not a 45% three point shooter yet. What I believe in with Zachary Rizachet in a way that I don't with Alex Sar is the tools in the floor game. The feel like he's a guy who understands how to play in space, who understands how to work opposite. Not just people like Trae Young, but people like Jalen Johnson. The overall way that he fits into a team context makes sense to me and feels like something that you can build out from when you're talking about putting lineups together. Alex Sar could be a very high level defender at some point. He's already like a pretty good shot challenger and Evan Mobley isn't a friend.
- [90:41]
Rob Mahoney
Protector if I dare say so.
- [90:43]
Eddie Ocampo
That's honestly the trajectory that he needs. But he, he is even softer inside right now than Evan Mobley was coming into the league. And to be that soft in terms of finishing when you are that athletic. Plus have pretty lacking feel in terms of how to play the game for. He is a 19 year old. I don't expect him to be terribly sophisticated. I just think with Sar like I, I don't see a lot from him in terms of what he can be offensively. And if you're a big and that's who you are. I see a guy who can get played off the floor. I see a guy who can be a potential liability if he doesn't start putting those things together. So he's still in my five. I just don't have him in the top two.
- [91:22]
Justin Verrier
I see it with Risha Shay. I think what's funny is that I assumed he had this like crazy wingspan. I was like oh, it must be like 7:2, 7:3. But the truth is he's just lanky and so it looks like he's actually like 6, 8 with a 610 wingspan. If that just plays hard.
- [91:40]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah, I think defensive.
- [91:41]
Justin Verrier
Yeah, he's a. He's a giant wing who will in the future hopefully be guarding your second best player while Dyson takes the first guy. Yeah, I think he's going to shoot well.
- [91:52]
Rob Mahoney
If you put Richard Shay's approach in Shaden Sharp's body and skill set. Yeah, you'd have a. I would take.
- [92:00]
Justin Verrier
Your approach at this point With Shane it becomes more. I have the beholder from there. I have clinging at three who need needs to get in better shape. I know. Well, unfortunately the Blazers have drafted highly in the best three drafts. It's basically their, their all star moment here. The block percentage is absolutely incredible. He's basically Mark Keaton at, at this point. And I also think, unlike Edie, who I think, I assume Rob has, I just like, oh, really interesting.
- [92:37]
Eddie Ocampo
I do not.
- [92:38]
Justin Verrier
I just like the way Clingan can play more within the free flowing nature of an offense. Like, I do think the handoff stuff we were talking about before with Hartenstein, like, that could be his future. And I also like him as a locker room guy. Like, there could have been an issue with him and a in and Robert Williams all fighting for minutes. But I think he's like, just like a fun, loving, good guy to be around. And so I think the size plus the feel plus that has me at number three.
- [93:07]
Eddie Ocampo
I like Clingan. I don't, I don't mind this at all. I think he is clinging too among the big prospects. I like, I do like him better than Zach Edie. I do like what he can ultimately be. And the reason Edie isn't on my list is I just, when I watch him have the distinct feeling that this is never a guy you're going to want to play more than 20 to 25 minutes a game on, on a good team. And so if that's the case, am I taking you with a top five pick? With everything that we know now, he's.
- [93:33]
Rob Mahoney
Never going to have the stamina, dude.
- [93:36]
Eddie Ocampo
The stamina, the fouls, the defensive, like defending in space, all those things are problems for him.
- [93:40]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, he got pro. I think the space stuff is just. He's winded.
- [93:44]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah.
- [93:44]
Rob Mahoney
When he runs up and down full, like as hard as he can two times in a row or three times in a row, it's just like, bro, he's, he's sucking wind out there.
- [93:56]
Justin Verrier
To be fair, Clingan has that issue as well. Like, he does put on a lot of weight. And so at this, especially with like, you see him out there with that big bulky knee brace, you're like getting a little worried. But I think long term, just. He's also like two years younger, so there's theoretical upside there. I just, I don't know. I like him in a team concept more than I do. Like, you're right, Rob. It just seems like, Ed, you have to be a little bit more intentional about how you use him.
- [94:18]
Eddie Ocampo
He feels like a specialist and that's okay and a perfectly valid part of the Grizzlies rotation, but that's because they're a team that has options. And if I'm drafting at this stage in the draft, I want players who are going to make my life as a coach or a general manager easier, who are going to open things up for me. And I don't think Zach Edie does that.
- [94:34]
Justin Verrier
Yeah. From there I have Jared McCain who obviously is out for the year, but has an elite tool which separates him from basically everybody else in this draft class. I think the defensive issues are going to be a thing there. But yeah, I think I have McCain 4 and then I have Reach Ashe at 5.
- [94:52]
Rob Mahoney
Okay, so I win McCain F4 for me. Reed shepherd. Still holding on to my Reed shepherd stock. I'm not abandoning y'all. Wait, where are you putting.
- [95:04]
Eddie Ocampo
Where are you putting Reed Shepherd?
- [95:06]
Rob Mahoney
He's my number three.
- [95:08]
Eddie Ocampo
Still at three.
- [95:09]
Rob Mahoney
Still still at number three. He can't get off the bench in. In Houston, but I still believe Castle.
- [95:15]
Eddie Ocampo
Sar, I want to ask this about Reed shepherd, which is, didn't Jared McCain just come in and be the player we thought Reed shepherd was going to be? And if so, why wouldn't you just take Jared McCain?
- [95:27]
Rob Mahoney
That's fair. That's fair. Jerry. You know what? You're right. Switch them. Switch them up. Jeremy, gain three. Reed shepherd four. You're right about.
- [95:33]
Eddie Ocampo
I am also not closing the book on Reed Shepherd's career, but knowing how easily he can be targeted. And it was like the second he stood stepped on the floor for the Rockets in any minutes, even garbage time, people are going right at him every time and he can't hold up to that. Right now that concerns me. His inability to find his shot, I'm not super worried about. I think he's going to get there offensively. I think he's going to be a good player, but I'm not taking him in the top five. I do have Jared McCain as well. I also have Jalen Wells, who it is a risk averse pick.
- [96:02]
Rob Mahoney
I thought about him.
- [96:03]
Eddie Ocampo
But in a draft like this, maybe you should avert some risk. Like maybe you should steer around these projects and these guys who need so much to make their games work. Jalen Wallace just comes in. He has a lower ceiling, admittedly. And for a top five pick, that's not necessarily what you want to be doing. But I know for certain that he is a winning player and I know for certain that he's going to come in and basically give me good, rock solid wing minutes and not make any mistakes at all. That's. That's useful to me.
- [96:29]
Rob Mahoney
So we're 101 hour and 30 minutes into this podcast.
- [96:33]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah.
- [96:34]
Justin Verrier
And just let it rip.
- [96:35]
Rob Mahoney
Rob, as before we started was like, should we start with the 2024.
- [96:42]
Eddie Ocampo
You don't think this would have gotten the people going? Wells.
- [96:45]
Justin Verrier
Yeah. Should we do a whole segment Jon Jalen Wells vs. Jalen Wilson?
- [96:51]
Eddie Ocampo
I don't mind it. I look, I like both those guys. Both have been getting a lot of play on this pod recently. I also want to say upset of the century, that over the last two, I have mentioned Santi Aldama, the least of anyone on this podcast.
- [97:02]
Justin Verrier
I just.
- [97:03]
Eddie Ocampo
I'm so happy for where we are right now.
- [97:05]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I've been converted. The Church of Santi.
- [97:08]
Justin Verrier
I will also mention I kind of like Mattis Pizzelas.
- [97:11]
Eddie Ocampo
Yep.
- [97:12]
Justin Verrier
He's like 6:10, 6:11. He's just a giant, weird, goofy human who might be like, have a little pop to his offensive game. I don't know what he is, but.
- [97:22]
Eddie Ocampo
Yeah, he is the Josh Giddy case you were talking about, which is if he had been drafted in the top five, I would be worried about the weight of that expectation. But as an 11th, he just gets to come in and be goofy and be like, exploratory with his game. I think he's gonna be good.
- [97:36]
Justin Verrier
Yeah. Khalil Ware, I thought about just a giant athlete who I think is going to be something if Miami can sink their teeth into him and have him do a bunch of just dumbbell lifts or whatever they do there. Eve Missy, obviously, and Reed Shepherd. I will note, I feel the same as Rob does where, like, I still like the talent, but I'm a little bit more iffy on him. I don't think he's done any. He doesn't get the benefit of doubt because Odoka just bases things entirely defense. So because of defense being an issue, he's never going to play. And so, like, if he was. If he was on the Sixers, for instance, he would be their starting two guard.
- [98:11]
Eddie Ocampo
Well, there's just a universe where he got drafted by a lottery team and came in and was just given the. Given the keys right out of the gate. They did not give a shit about his ability to hold up defensively. And he put up rookie of the year numbers and just won it because he. I think he does have that potential. If you gave him room to establish himself and gain some confidence, that's in short supply for the Rockets these days. And like, this is the struggle when you have a team that's that deep with not just good players, but good young players.
- [98:37]
Justin Verrier
All right, do you guys have anything else you want to say on the past five NBA drafts that you did not say in the past 90 minutes.
- [98:46]
Eddie Ocampo
I wish Tijon Salon was good and maybe he will be. But I he is, he is the most like, I watch him and I just don't, I don't see whatever it is that the Hornets saw. So I, I hope to see that one day. I hope his career really takes off. I've just, I'm kind of waiting.
- [99:01]
Justin Verrier
You could convince me that, like, he's been a Terminator this entire time that, like the T3 just sent him back to see if they can do what.
- [99:09]
Eddie Ocampo
The NBA system to sabotage the Hornets. You don't need a Terminator to do that.
- [99:13]
Justin Verrier
That's true. All right, on that note, thank you to Eddie Ocampo on production. We'll be back with hopefully a more just totally normal NBA podcast on Monday. Must be 21 plus and present in select states For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18/ plus and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or 800-327-5050. For 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.