The Ringer NBA Show — "Reflecting on 25 Years of NBA Evolution With Ben Taylor"

Date: September 5, 2025
Host: J. Kyle Mann
Guest: Ben Taylor (Thinking Basketball)

Overview

In this rich, hour-plus episode, J. Kyle Mann joins Ben Taylor of Thinking Basketball to take stock of the past 25 years of NBA basketball in honor of the 25th anniversary of the 21st century. Their winding, detailed conversation explores player evaluation, shifts in offensive and defensive strategy, and the league’s constant adaptation and innovation—framing the evolution through both statistical rigor and creative theorizing. It’s a broad, big-picture meditation on what basketball has become, what we sometimes miss in evaluating greatness, and how the NBA’s future might be shaped.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Making of a 25-Year Retrospective

• Series Motivation: Ben and his Thinking Basketball team created a 25-year retrospective to celebrate the NBA’s evolution and to challenge themselves to discuss concepts as much as players ([05:00-06:00]).
  • Quote: “The real conceit, once we start doing a project like this, Kyle, is to use the players as a vehicle to discuss concepts, to discuss changes in the game and value relative to your era... that go beyond just the classic box score or some narrative about rings…” — Ben Taylor [05:09]

2. Challenges in Player Evaluation Across Eras

• Volume of Talent: Ben describes being overwhelmed by the sheer number of great players deserving discussion—even after initially envisioning the series as a way to surface the underappreciated (e.g., Kyle Lowry, Al Horford) ([06:00]).
  • “I think I texted Cody... We have 38 players to discuss. What.” — Ben Taylor [06:45]
• Shifting Metrics: Ben emphasizes the inadequacy of box score stats alone and the need to assess impact—like how a player’s presence affects team shot profiles, turnovers, and true team offense ([07:26-09:35]).
  • “We're stuck in the classic box score. And I'm trying to get us beyond the classic box score at all times.” — Ben Taylor [07:33]

3. Player Superpowers: Simple or Synergistic?

• On Jason Kidd and Multi-Skill Impact: The conversation uses Jason Kidd as a lens to rethink “superpowers”—not as single skills, but intersections of abilities like court mapping, speed, hand-eye coordination ([11:49–14:10]).
  • “With these great players... it’s often the intersection... balance, speed, size, power, skill, vision, shooting, movement, whatever it is that unlocks something. And this honestly is like, to me, the most interesting part about basketball…” — Ben Taylor [12:15]

4. Historical Player Types, Archetypes, and Modern NBA Comparisons

• Kidd Comparisons: Where would a young Jason Kidd fit now? Ben and Kyle weigh whether he'd be more like Draymond Green or a “supercharged Alex Caruso,” noting how certain archetypes (defensive, unselfish non-shooting point guards) are nearly extinct in today’s league ([15:48-19:51]).
  • Quote: “Kid came into the league as a offensive first guy who had these incredible defensive skills... What does it mean for like being a guard in today's game?... Cody on the episode said he's gone by the way of the dinosaur, this archetype...” — Ben Taylor [18:16]

5. The Limits of Statistical Argument: James Harden, Tracy McGrady & the Playoffs

• Why Fans Fixate on Box Scores and Regular Season Stats: Ben dissects ongoing fan pushback to their Harden takes and clarifies the thinking: regular season efficiency doesn’t always translate, and context, especially playoff adjustments, matters ([21:01-29:26]).
  • “In the case of Harden, the biggest single thing is the difference between the regular season and the playoffs. And I don't know why at this point there's resistance to that...” — Ben Taylor [23:20]
• On McGrady: Many fans are baffled by TMAC’s inclusion in the top-25, but Ben stresses his underrated team impact, even if his individual efficiency dipped. He expands on how old rules/spacing limited rim finishing compared to today’s game ([29:34-33:53]).
  • “I was kind of stunned that there are people who think Tracy McGrady is very good. I think he's been subsumed by some of... this efficiency mindset where you focus heavily on the player's individual true shooting percentage.” — Ben Taylor [29:45]
  • “One of the most fun things about rewatching games... is sort of the very gray, ambiguous bridging of the gather step and how big of a deal that actually is for on ball finishing skills.” — Ben Taylor [31:58]

6. Evolutionary Leaps: Analytics, Defense, and the Arms Race

• Coaching Interventions: Ben highlights the 08 Celtics (Thibodeau's influence) as an example where defense briefly got ahead in the tactical war: overloading the strong side, pushing ball to the sideline ([34:52-37:25]).
  • “They just did it all the time... and they had it totally dialed in. And then they paired that with coverages that became commonplace for defending the screen.” — Ben Taylor [36:03]
• Shooting and Spacing: They reminisce about resistance to shooting’s value and how old head skepticism feels anachronistic now ([38:03-40:26]).
  • “Back in the day, it was so hard for me to sell people on how valuable shooting was... and now, I mean... the 93 Suns team made over a thousand threes. They might have been the first team in NBA history to make over a thousand threes.” — Ben Taylor [38:05]

7. Modern Offensive Innovations: Memphis, Cleveland, and Indiana’s Movement Revolution

• Memphis’s Spacing and Movement: Diving into novel player development, Memphis’s radical spacing and off-ball movement (pioneered by Noah LaRoche) is described as a possible “shell of something bigger” ([43:38-49:17]).
  • “They're creating a ton of space to essentially allow players to isolate more... Memphis kind of zigged when everyone was zagging...” — Ben Taylor [44:09]
• Applicability and Sustainability: Ben believes such approaches, especially off-ball movement and dynamic help manipulation, will become a staple, but all-in philosophies are rarely sustainable ([49:17–52:22]).
  • “Going all the way in the other direction all the time, the way Memphis essentially did, might not be viable because... you become predictable... But if you use it a little bit here and there, that's when I think we're going to see something that will stick going forward.” — Ben Taylor [49:44]

8. The Pacers’ “Point-Five” Offense and the Future of Primaries

• Indiana’s Randomness and Pace: Their offense is lauded as ahead of its time for its randomness, high tempo, and 0.5-second-decision mentality with Halliburton at the core. The way their movement stretches defenses horizontally—creating micro-advantages—gets highlighted as a frontier ([52:22–57:45]).
  • “It's like air traffic control. They're just running guys back and forth across there and playing horizontally.” — Ben Taylor [55:25]
• Comparing OKC and the Pacers’ Approaches: Ben points out that an offense adapts to personnel; not every “star” (e.g., SGA, Paolo, Tatum) can be a 0.5 mover, but teams with the right mix could unlock higher levels of efficiency ([59:58–63:07]).
  • “Offenses are built around the ingredients that you have... You can't cook a fish stew if someone brings home beef.” — Ben Taylor [60:21]

9. The League’s Cultural and Tactical Direction

• Kobe’s Lingering Impact: They discuss how the meta-narrative and cultural impact, especially of Kobe Bryant, still shapes play and player archetypes, even if the roadmap for NBA success now favors quicker offense and higher efficiency ([64:36-66:41]).
  • “But the thing with Kobe specifically is, I mean, he left the game right at the precipice of the most radical change we've seen since at least the shot clock...” — Ben Taylor [65:54]

10. Projecting the Next 20 Years in NBA Defense

• Hybrid Defenses and Psychological Trickery: Looking forward, Ben predicts the rise of hybrid defenses (man/zone) and disguised coverages, akin to football's evolution, as the next tactical leap ([68:42-71:55]).
  • “My guess is we're going to see more hybrid zone-man kind of stuff... And I also think the other thing that's coming... is what I’ll describe as disguised coverages. So in football... you want to disguise what you're doing... That element of psychological confusion... has not been tapped into with defenses...” — Ben Taylor [69:52–71:55]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On New Ways to Be Great:
  “...to be a good outside player, you have to be like Michael Jordan or David Thompson. No, you could do it. There's just so many different ways to be great.” — Ben Taylor [13:03]

• On Harden’s Playoff Gap:
  “If we were talking regular season only, I think he is one of the great regular season offensive players of the century.” — Ben Taylor [24:33]

• On the 0.5 Offense Ideal:
  “When you're connected to the whole system like that, having a guy at the centralized... [who can create] the start of a smaller advantage that could cascade into a bigger advantage... at incredible pace...” — Ben Taylor [55:41]

• On Defensive Innovation:
  “The other thing that's coming 20 years in the future is what I’ll just describe as disguised coverages... That element of psychological confusion... I would expect to see that in a cutting edge defense in 15 or 20 years.” — Ben Taylor [70:36]

• On Superpowers as Synergy:
  “So the classic example is when people say Steph Curry is the greatest shooter ever. And it’s like you’re missing everything if you think that summarizes Steph Curry...” — Ben Taylor [12:05]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Introduction and Purpose of Series: [00:53–06:45]
• Evaluating Greatness: Beyond Box Score: [06:45–09:43]
• Jason Kidd in Modern Terms; Player “Superpowers”: [09:43–14:52]
• Hand Tracking, Film Study, Data Evolution: [14:52–15:48]
• Kidd, Caruso, Draymond Archetypes: [15:48–19:51]
• Harden’s Place, Playoff Gaps, Stat Traps: [21:01–29:26]
• McGrady’s (Re)valuation, Finishing & the Gather Step: [29:26–33:53]
• Coaching Edge—08 Celtics, Overloads, Defense-Arms Race: [34:52–40:26]
• Present-Future Offense: Memphis, Movement, Space: [43:38–52:22]
• Pacers’ 0.5 Offense, Halliburton, and Off-Ball Theories: [52:22–59:58]
• OKC, Magic, Tatum: Primaries and Team Style Fit: [59:58–64:45]
• Kobe’s Cultural Legacy, Styles Across Eras: [64:36–66:41]
• NBA’s Defensive Future: Hybrids, Trickery, and Tech: [68:42–71:55]

Tone and Style

Ben Taylor and J. Kyle Mann keep the conversation lively but always grounded in curiosity and humility, frequently poking fun at their own “nerdiness,” and openly noting the subjectivity and contextuality of player evaluation. There’s a recurring willingness to question conventional wisdom, to admit uncertainty, and to balance reverence for past greatness with a call for deeper, broader thinking—anchored by memorable lines, inside jokes, and concrete, vivid basketball examples.

For More:

• Check out Ben Taylor’s “21st Century Peaks” playlist and podcast series for deep dives on individual players and themes
• Watch for the upcoming watch-along with Steve Nash on the Thinking Basketball channel