Rookie Review: Are the Mavs Already Wasting Flagg? Plus, the Young Pels Show Spunk, Konnnnn!, and More.

Summary

Podcast Summary – The Ringer NBA Show

Episode: “Rookie Review: Are the Mavs Already Wasting Flagg? Plus, the Young Pels Show Spunk, Konnnnn!, and More.”
Date: November 10, 2025
Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Mann

Episode Overview

The Ringer NBA group chat trio dives into the NBA’s most intriguing and impactful rookie class in recent years, focusing on how teams are utilizing their top young talents. The episode zeroes in on the Dallas Mavericks’ turbulent rookie experience with Cooper Flagg, the unexpected excitement from the young New Orleans Pelicans, and strong rookie contributors on the retooling Charlotte Hornets. The hosts also touch on a handful of other first-year players making waves, underwhelming, or still finding their roles.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. State of the 2025 NBA Rookie Class

• Depth and Early Impact: The hosts agree this is the most appointment-viewing rookie class in years, rivaling the 2021 class for relevance but featuring more immediate contributors.
• Teams with Stacked Responsibilities: Several rookies, including Cooper Flagg (Mavs), Derek Queen & Jeremiah Fears (Pelicans), and others, are already central to their teams' identities and rotations.
  • Kyle Mann [07:27]: “These rookies are just playing massively important roles for teams that actually do matter...they’re relevant contributors in a way I certainly didn’t anticipate.”

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2. Dallas Mavericks’ Rookie Dilemma: Cooper Flagg

• Burdened Out of Necessity: The Mavs have created an unappealing environment for Flagg, thrusting him into a primary creator role he’s not ready for due to lack of roster support.
• Offensive Struggles: Dallas has the league’s worst offense; Flagg is being forced into too many difficult shots and not getting easy baskets in the flow.
  • Justin Verrier [10:08]: “Cooper Flagg has taken 19 catch and shoot jump shots. He’s taken 41 dribble jump shots. That speaks to the burden he’s carrying.”
• Defensive Bright Spot: Flagg’s defensive versatility and maturity stand out; he’s adapting quickly even as the team around him falters.
  • Rob Mahoney [18:17]: “He is everything you would want from a guy who could guard multiple positions…he’s got the dimensions, he’s very savvy.”
• Front Office Critique: The hosts lay blame on Dallas GM Nico Harrison for failing to surround Flagg with any guards or spacing, recycling a Luka-centric roster after the trade.
  • Kyle Mann [13:45]: “The guy who then took the team into the offseason and didn’t bring in any guards…when the past tense nightmares are still the present tense nightmares, this is where you’re left.”
• Flagg’s Composure & Potential: All believe Flagg will blossom once the roster is more suitable, but his current environment is stifling his strengths and growth.

Notable Quote

• Kyle Mann [15:39]: “Every night he goes out he is being put in a position to fail…maybe long-term, there’s creative additions that come from this, but right now it’s not much fun to watch.”

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3. New Orleans Pelicans: Hopeful, Fun, and Weird

Derek Queen – The Enigmatic Hub

• Unique Skillset: Queen is drawing “baby Jokic” and Zach Randolph comps; projects as a creative hub but is atypical — part big, part wing, with advanced passing and a nonchalant motor.
• Offensive Fit: Most effective as a hub when flanked by shooters and movers; his offense pops against traditional bigs but struggles vs. switchy defenders.
  • J. Kyle Mann [34:42]: “When he gets a true big on him, he causes those problems…against modern power wings, those players cause Derek a little bit of trouble.”
• Defense & Positional Questions: Not much of a rim protector; must play alongside a true paint presence.
• Trade Linger: Queen’s promise is inevitably shadowed by the Pelicans’ decision to trade a future pick for him—a debate that will follow his career.

Jeremiah Fears – Dynamic Quickness

• Smooth Mover: Makes an immediate impact with start-stop ball-handling and fluidity; passing outpaces his shooting and defense so far.
  • Kyle Mann [41:54]: “Incredible at making plays…he pops off the screen, literally when he comes around a screen.”
• Size Concerns: Small guard factory worries about his long-term viability as a defensive anchor, but length offers hope.
• Duo Chemistry: Hosts call for maximal Queen/Fears minutes to expedite chemistry and development.

Building Challenges and Opportunities

• The consensus is that while the Queen/Fears foundation is exciting—especially compared to Zion’s fit—both will need complementary rim protection and big, athletic wings to reach their ceiling.
  • Rob Mahoney [45:08]: “If they had a top-five pick to put on top of what they have now, they’d be in the money, my friend.”

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4. Charlotte Hornets’ Surprising Maturity

Con Knueppel: Do-it-All Smart Wing

• Versatility: Has displayed primary and secondary creation, a reliable three-point shot, competitive rebounding, and intelligent team play—especially with increased usage due to injuries.
  • Justin Verrier [50:31]: “He feels the flow of the game…he’s just really invested in small parts of the game. So you don’t see wastefulness from him.”
  • Three consecutive 20+ point games, all without LaMelo Ball [51:30].
• Defense: Not a standout athlete but has a stout frame and good timing; brings a physical element on both ends.

Ryan Kalkbrenner: The Prototype Rim Protector

• Defined Role: Extremely efficient (81.3% FG at time of recording); essentially never leaves the restricted area, but is an instant rotation contributor.
• Defensive Impact: Tall, disciplined shot-blocker—even if not physically imposing.
  • Rob Mahoney [59:04]: “Very Walker Kessler type right now…if he can continue to protect the rim at this rate, there’s going to be a place for him on rosters for a while.”
• Projection: Seen long-term as a fourth or “rotation” big on a playoff team.

Sion James: The “Adult” Rookie

• Plug-and-Play Impact: Defensive stopper, high-effort, making every shot he’s taking (unsustainable but indicative of readiness).
• Reliable Role Player: The hosts praise Charlotte for drafting “guys who could just play” and stabilize rotations.

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5. Other Rookie Notes & Quick Hits

• VJ Edgecombe (Sixers): Electrifying slasher with star upside, but the jury’s out on his jumper and on-ball creation. Already making winning plays.
• Ace Bailey (Jazz): Lost and miscast—Utah’s unclear development path and logjam hinder his adjustment.
• Trey Johnson (Wizards): Flashes as a shot-maker but disappears when shots don’t fall; needs to embrace “endurance specialist” movement game.
• Colin Murray-Boyles (Raptors): Defensive dynamo with high basketball IQ, but the offense lags for now; trying to establish his “Detonator” nickname to mixed reception.
• Will Richard (Warriors): High-energy, do-the-little-things rookie; quickly gaining favor with Steve Kerr over less consistent young players.
• Brooklyn Nets’ Rookies: The team’s large rookie crop is mostly stuck in developmental limbo (G League, scarce minutes), puzzling the hosts.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Flagg’s situation:
  • “Every night he goes out he is being put in a position to fail…maybe long-term you’re put through the paces of that, [but] right now it’s not much fun to watch.”
    — Kyle Mann, [15:39]
• On Derek Queen’s quirks:
  • “He’ll catch the ball and just lock in…he’s like, ‘I’m gonna figure this out’…but I think the biggest question is: will he be able to shoot it so they can play him in more positions?”
    — J. Kyle Mann, [29:21]
• On Con Knueppel’s feel:
  • “He feels the flow of the game…one of my favorite things about Con is, when he back screens you, you feel it.”
    — Justin Verrier, [50:31]
• On Kalkbrenner:
  • “He does not even think about stepping outside his role, does not even consider the possibility.”
    — Kyle Mann, [55:06]
• On Will Richard’s effort:
  • “Will Richard does not have that problem. So I understand Steve Kerr throwing him on the poster and pointing him out as the best child in class.”
    — Kyle Mann, [86:27]

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Other Memorable Moments

• Ongoing debates over rookie nicknames: Especially for Colin Murray-Boyles, with “Detonator” and “Chonkasaurus” floated— to much laughter and skepticism from co-hosts. [78:29–79:39]
• Charlotte’s shift in drafting philosophy:
  • “Just draft people who can play…it’s not a remarkable concept.” — Kyle Mann, [54:22]
• NBA live geography gaffe:
  • Rob guesses about Dallas’ position relative to Houston, leading to group laughter. [17:19–17:39]

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Additional Rookie Shoutouts

• Jaeger (Nets): Flashes high-level decision making, but lacks the scoring punch and is not being empowered by the team. (84:40)
• Will Richard (Warriors): The “teacher’s pet” energy guy—already in Steve Kerr’s good graces and pushing others for minutes. (84:34)
• Pelicans fun with Queen/Fears: A banjo vs timpani metaphor for the dynamic between the pair’s contrasting on-court rhythms. [41:10]
• Portland/Blazers references pop up throughout.

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Conclusions

• The rookie class is historically deep, not just for the top picks but for the volume of productive NBA players.
• Teams like the Mavericks are at risk of stalling elite prospects—bad environments matter.
• Conversely, franchises like Charlotte, by valuing NBA-readiness and “adult” contributors, have quickly stabilized.
• The Pelicans’ new era is fun and far more promising than their record suggests, but building around unique players (like Queen and Fears) will require careful construction.

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[Key Timestamps]

• Flagg and Mavericks’ situation: 07:50–24:51
• Pelicans’ rookies (Queen, Fears): 28:29–46:08
• Charlotte rookies (Knueppel, Kalkbrenner, Sion James): 47:07–62:14
• Other rookie notes (Edgecombe, Johnson, Bailey, Nets): 62:22–86:27

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This episode serves as an early report card on the 2025 NBA rookie landscape, full of insight, humor, and the hosts’ trademark mix of depth and banter. For fans tracking young player growth or curious about which franchises are building the right way, it’s a must-listen recap and analysis.

Transcript

[Justin Barrier]

Foreign.

[Rob Mahoney]

Chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney. Jay. Kyle. Man, Kyle, did you prepare any grievances or any documents you want to share? I just want to make sure you have the time here.

[Justin Barrier]

One week ago today, I was terrified in the darkness by a feral cat.

[Kyle]

Let the record show and therefore could not podcast famously.

[Justin Barrier]

I tried to avoid all wild animals. So it's been a much calmer night, you know, so.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, we're happy to hear it, Rob.

[Kyle]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Rob Mahoney]

Do you have any, any documents, any. Any airing of grievances?

[Kyle]

Not a single one. I'm feeling great. I love both of you. I love NBA basketball. I'm ready to, to participate in our podcast today.

[Justin Barrier]

One, one important thing though is Reed Shepherd. I don't want to like overreact, but first team, all NBA. It's in the air, I think, right?

[Kyle]

Yeah. You're not ready. You're not ready to rule it out is what you're saying.

[Justin Barrier]

We couldn't. It'd be bad science, I think at this point. To rule it out. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. I think since we question the Rockets offense in Reed shepherd in particular, and by we, I mean mostly me, but you guys, by, by proxy, they've been pretty fantastic.

[Kyle]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

So that's been cool.

[Kyle]

I think we'll have to return to them at some point. But like while we're on our. Our relative hobby horses. Justin, I was wondering if you had any feelings about, you know. Basketball reference has very handy MVP tracker over the course of the season.

[Justin Barrier]

Who's.

[Kyle]

Who's in the mix based on their statistical performances, who's playing well, who should actually be in the MVP conversation? Josh Giddy had been surprisingly hanging around.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's go.

[Kyle]

The fake MVP odds, but I regret to inform you, has slipped all the way out. You know, the Jalen Durans, the Isaiah Hartenstein's have supplanted him. But what can you do? I just wanted to know if you had a comment about that at this time.

[Rob Mahoney]

He didn't even make it to our like one month awards. He's not even going to be on the ballot.

[Kyle]

He could be back.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Oh, is. Is d' Angelo Russell on there?

[Kyle]

I can assure you not.

[Justin Barrier]

Who crossed him over? Who was it that. Was it Donovan that crossed him over?

[Rob Mahoney]

Who?

[Justin Barrier]

Like the other night he fell over?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Justin Barrier]

No, he got across.

[Kyle]

The propaganda has begun.

[Justin Barrier]

He got crossed out of that MVP tracking. That's what happened. I'm trying.

[Rob Mahoney]

Who?

[Justin Barrier]

It was Mitchell, wasn't it? I'm trying to remember who it was.

[Rob Mahoney]

Either way, I think it was. Yeah, listen, this is just the ebbs and flows of the NBA season, right? You know, you're gonna have some down nights where you fall flat on your face and you're have other nights where you look like the MVP of the league. I'm just used to this. Maybe you're not because you're new to the, to the Giddy experience. But you know, overall, still still on the positive side, which is probably better than we had hoped it being at this point in the season.

[Kyle]

I mean, unquestionably still on the positive side. I mean he ultimately could be in all certainly All Star. I think all NBA might be a bit much at this point. But you know what? When you're right, you're right, Justin. I think we're gonna have to back off and respect both you and Josh Giddy for once.

[Rob Mahoney]

We need that as the drop after the Portland change one. We need. We need you just telling me I'm right over and over again.

[Kyle]

I'll send it to you as a voice note so you can play it for yourself whenever you need.

[Justin Barrier]

It was DeAndre Hunter, by the way. For the record, I want to make sure DeAndre. I always want to make sure DeAndre Hunter gets his, his, his cred. I'm known for that. So Isaiah cleared that up. Thanks, Isaiah.

[Rob Mahoney]

You're listening to the Ringer NBA show presented by FanDuel. FanDuel now displays your bet directly on your phone's lock screen and with the latest updates to the live events and player pages, it's never been easier to be part of the game and Missouri. Get excited because FanDuel's coming your way December 1st. Download the FanDuel sportsbook app now and play your game 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut.

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[Rob Mahoney]

Well, glad we got all this league wide talk out of the way early because on today's podcast. Got it. Yeah, we're the entirely. We covered it all in four minutes of. Of totally cool banter. But we're doing all rookies today. We have the foremost young player expert. Kyle, what would you say? Young player fetishist, perhaps?

[Kyle]

That doesn't sound good. That word I don't like.

[Justin Barrier]

Really? No, no. I didn't really have that board at the top.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like I'm young.

[Justin Barrier]

What you say? Yeah. All right. Justin, you. I mean I don't even have words for you. Your pre show discussion was inappropriate. Now you're talking about fetishes and things.

[Kyle]

Yep.

[Justin Barrier]

I think you need to rein it in and get a. Get control of yourself. I like to watch players develop. I mean, if you want to pervert that in some way, I'm sure you'll find a way.

[Kyle]

But see, Kyle and I stand on the side of progress. You know, we like to see the times marching forward, Justin. Whereas, you know, you're not as interested.

[Justin Barrier]

In these things you in Portland over there.

[Rob Mahoney]

You guys, we're, we're very progressive about many, many things. Perhaps not the. The rookie class is one of them. There's just too many to get through. But we're going to talk about a lot of rookies. We've already done so thus far over the first couple pods of the season because the rookies have been so prominent this year. I was actually trying to think about this. This is pretty. Probably the most intriguing rookie class, I would say in a very long time. The only one I can really think of, Kyle, is like maybe 20, 21 because that class is ending up being just stocked with contributors. But I don't remember it being immediately like appointment viewing. Like Mobley was like fine. Cade was like figuring himself out. Now we have like flag was awesome. Harper before he got hurt was awesome. There's just like a lot to watch even on a given night.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, a lot. That there was a lot of shakeup in that draft. A lot of guys that kind of moved up. Obviously Shingoon, you know, it's funny that OKC originally drafted him and trade him, but, you know, giddy moving up, Barnes moving up. He obviously has his fans and. And befuddled detractors. Trey Murphy was one that I really underestimated and whiffed hard on that one. And then Cade and Jaylen, Jalen Johnson, another one who kind of came out of the woodwork and became a serious player. So definitely not chalk on that one. But this one at the top, I mean, if you're just kind of looking at the early returns, there's. There's one worrisome guy that I think we'll get to that. That is. But I don't even know if it's even like bonafide worry. I think of the top 10 guys, there's nobody that I'm watching and I'm just. I'm just thinking, ooh, like, this is. There's trouble here. Like, there are still paths, I think, for even the guys who are not having a great start to get to a serviceable place.

[Kyle]

Well, and because you had multiple teams jumping in the lottery order, some of these rookies are just playing massively important teams for teams that actually do matter. And, you know, sometimes that's for better and worse. I'm sure we're going to get to it very soon with Cooper, for example, and everything he's being asked to do. But the rookies are in the spotlight right now. Like, they're relevant NBA contributors from this class in a way that I know I certainly didn't anticipate. Justin.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, well, let's start with Cooper right off the top here because their Mavs are unfortunately probably the story of the NBA right now for all negative reasons. Rob. I think people expected, especially after the start that they got off to, that the Mavs might struggle this year. I think the thing that's been most jarring is that they just aren't fun at all. Like the Flag experience. He has moments, but it just feels like a bit of a slog even. Like there is no, like, fun young rookie situation. Like, I was thinking back to Zion, for instance. The pebbles were awful, but he would have these moments that just felt like, like. Like earthquake ripples that you just had to like, pay attention to. Flag's had moments, but he hasn't really had that. And as a result, like, the Mavs just feel like. Just like a catastrophe. All the bad things start to go to the foreground as opposed to some of the exciting young player stuff.

[Justin Barrier]

Remember when Zion hit four threes in a row in that first.

[Rob Mahoney]

Exactly what I was thinking about. That was incredible.

[Kyle]

I mean, they could use some of that from Cooper right now. Anyone who could hit a three at any point in time would be nice for the Mavericks. But it's like it's hard to have those sort of breakout moments even as a young player when your team is this sludgy, this stuck in the mud, this absolutely desperate for anyone who can handle the ball, anyone who can make space whatsoever. Like right now, I would like for the two of you to guess for me how many Dallas Mavericks are shooting better than 30% from 3. 30%. You know, I, Kyle could walk on a basketball court right now 30 and shoot 30% from three.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not me.

[Kyle]

No. Absolutely.

[Justin Barrier]

Ross. Seen my thumb and jumper? Yeah. I can get 30. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's ugly as hell underhand or something. I'm going to guess two.

[Kyle]

It is exactly two. Max Christie, Jaden Hardy. Those are the only players I'm not even talking about league average. 30% from 3. Cooper is among them. And some of that is like he's just being asked to take a lot of jump shots that even he doesn't really want to take because there's no plausible way to get to the rim within this offense right now. And that my friends, is why the Dallas Mavericks are the single worst offense in the entire NBA already this far into the season. And even when you get Anthony Davis back full time and all your Derek Lively, everyone back and healthy, I just don't see the route to them being even a moderately successful offense.

[Justin Barrier]

Here's a stat.

[Rob Mahoney]

Ding, ding, ding.

[Justin Barrier]

I'm going to jump in. This season, Cooper flag has taken 19 catch and shoot jump shots. He has taken 41 dribble jump shots. That's way off. They, I, I just don't think that that can be. I, I think it speaks to the, the burden that he is carrying of, of facilitating. He's just not getting the easy money that, that he is really good at cashing in on. Now the, the, the, the ones that he's getting whenever he gets spot up threes. Let's see this. Well, the spot up isn't as great either. He's not hitting those. He's, he's not, he's not hitting anything well. He's not getting good shots. We can talk throughout his game. I mean if, I think if he was getting more kind of found money in transition and things like that. He obviously looks great when he's out and running. He's looked good when he's attaching attacking mismatches. He can, he can post and score on smaller players which I think is an you would think that that would be a sort of implied thing for NBA players. It is not. He, so he is an 18 year old is attacking that. And I think that's a positive sign to me once there's a little oxygen in their offense that he'll be able to find those little avenues and places to, to be productive when he's not so burdened.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I mean it's tough because I think optically the Mavs were, were in a tough spot no matter what, to have them fall on their face like this was never going to work out well for the team, especially Nico Harrison and everyone involved in the Luka Dodges trade. Right. They, they weren't going to get goodwill. They don't deserve goodwill. They're definitely not getting it right now as like while we're on Mark Stein's already reporting like they might move on from Nico Harrison. Like that's going to just build over the next couple weeks. I but when I watch them, when without AD, without Kyrie, I'm like this is a bad team with a rookie trying to find himself and get more opportunities than he probably should on a team that is playing with stakes. And so like I'm sympathetic to a certain extent because I just don't know what else you would want. Like they're playing sympathetic to whom?

[Kyle]

To Cooper or to the Mavericks more broadly?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, to all the people that are more involved in the Luka trade. I guess if you were to really like to find some like thing to, to poke holes in was that once they turned the page to Cooper they practically brought back the supporting, the supporting cast from Luca. So I. There are a lot of players that typically need to be activated by someone who is A plus creator. Which is why I think they're overburdening Cooper in that role.

[Kyle]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

But other than that, like this is kind of a typical rookie experience and so I almost wonder maybe like were to blame to a certain extent for even the hype machine like projecting him to be like a 25 point per game score or whatever people were expecting when really he was kind of set up to be about this.

[Kyle]

I would say I think there's a truth to that. For one, like Cooper Flag's game, he was always going to be more comfortable especially out of the gate, playing in the flow, playing in transition as Kyle mentioned. And ultimately he has the style of game that is going to amplify other really good players, especially creators. And so when you don't have those, there's always going to be something from him especially this early on, that's like, it leaves you a little bit wanting. That is a little bit against the grain of how he should be playing or how he best plays. That is part of it. But as far as what you're saying, Justin, about, like, feeling for everyone who wasn't involved in the trade, I'm with you. But there's also the part of it where Nico Harrison, the guy who is responsible for the trade, is still the present tense general manager of the team. And most critically, here is the guy who then took the team into the off season and didn't bring in any guards whatsoever who could actually help them and help spell Cooper and put them into a kind of normal formation of a team. And so when the past tense nightmares are still the present tense nightmares, this.

[Justin Barrier]

Is where you're left. Yeah. If you're looking at this team, Rob and I were talking about this the other day where I. There's been a lot of just how. I can't believe they're doing this to Cooper. My God. Like, oh, wow. If you watch this team, this isn't some arbitrary experiment where they're just being twiddle, you know, twist, twistling, twiddling, twiddling, twirling their mustache, whatever it is. Twirling. I don't know and I've never done it. It's not just deviously saying, like, let's. Let's do something and get weird here. This is. They need him to pass the ball because obviously we know DLO can do a little bit of that, but. And they're trying to find little ways to take the pressure of him just being ridden like a horse up the. Up the court by the on ball defender. I mean, they'll advance it. I mean, sometimes we'll see Nimhard bring it up. Sometimes we'll see DLO bring it up and Cooper will catch it at the elbow. And then they'll get into something. They're trying to relieve him here and there, but overall, I sent you all a doc where I was just taking screenshots of what the paint looks like whenever Cooper turns the corner. And it is. It is a crowded house. It is. It is very, very jam packed in there. And you could imagine how even a good, you know, like, high volume ball screen operator would have a hard time dealing with the space that they have. And like, you're absolutely right that. I mean, this was. When you build a machine for Luca, when you build a team for him, it's a very, you know, there's a strict kind of guided template to how to do that and to assume that Cooper would just plug into that and be efficient. Yeah, I mean we're saying like the hype were responsible for the hype. Yeah, I mean I assume that he would come in and figure it out, but we still do have some time. I'm not acting like it's going to get like outrageous that he's just going to figure it out to the extent that he's going to be in all star level Luka type player or even be as good as Luka was as a pick and roll player as rookie year. But I do think that it's going to get better and he'll, he'll slowly start because he's like the young. Is he the youngest player in the league? I think he is.

[Kyle]

I mean he's just wildly talented, like wildly self evidently talented. It's just that every night he goes out he is being put in a position to fail like, like just in his role on a nightly basis. And maybe long term you're put through the paces of that. There's some creative additions that come from having to like the forcing function of working under these conditions could help him long term. I'm open to those possibilities. You can even see it when he does get into the paint like Cooper Flag's footwork inside is really clever and really interesting and you'll see him bait guys off balance. You'll see the up and unders, the step throughs, all this stuff that I think getting used to working under these conditions could ultimately amplify things about him that are already or were already going to be pretty successful. But right now it's not much fun to watch. I just, I loathe to turn on any game involving this team at this point. I don't know when or if that could possibly change. And the part of this that I think I hate the most is that all of this point guard conversation leads to a lot of Kyrie Irving conversation. And there are quotes from Jason Kidd saying I guess like, you know, we'll talk after Thanksgiving. Well, you know, we'll talk in a couple of weeks. All these hints from in and around the team putting pressure on a guy with a massive injury history coming back from a huge significant in many cases career altering injury. And now you're, you're talking about rushing him back. Not to say that they're doing back that, but there's a lot of conversation about it in a way that makes me really uncomfortable.

[Justin Barrier]

Same.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, it's tough because you would think that Russell could have Done enough in order to provide some structure to the team, but even now that he's in the starting lineup with Max Christie, so they look like a more balanced starting lineup. They've done away, for the most part, with at least to start with the tall ball. Like, what is it? The east version of what the Rockets are doing is Dallas east of Houston.

[Kyle]

Come on. This is embarrassing. What are you doing?

[Rob Mahoney]

I haven't pulled out a. My topography map in a little while.

[Kyle]

Where is it? Jesus Christ.

[Justin Barrier]

You're asking what conference they're in? I was like, I think we got to cancel the show.

[Rob Mahoney]

I look out there sometimes, and, yes, like, the ball moves a little bit better than it did to start the season, but, like, who's cracking the paint a lot of the time? Because Russell just wants to float away and just, like, make passes to impress himself most of the time. I will say, in the midst of all of this, you, Rob is right. Like, Cooper plays the right way, like, to the point where in one game, he was almost overpassing to Clay Thompson just because, like, that's just what you do. Clay just wasn't on at that point, and probably he should have just taken it to himself. But, like, he has those right impulses. And the one good thing actually going for the Mavs because they literally have the worst offense in the NBA, which big yikes. The defense is starting to balance out a little bit. At the very least, they're good on one end of the floor. And, Kai, you're seeing, like, what Cooper can do. Like, they have good defensive personnel first and foremost, but, like, he is just everything you would want from a guy who could guard multiple positions. I think it was. I forgot what game I was watching. I think it was the Pelicans where, like, someone tried to take a deep three, and he just, like, stayed down and reached out and he blocked it. It's just like, he's got the dimensions. He's very, like, savvy. It's just like, at the very least, they are bringing it on that end. And you can see, like, him within that established structure, like, starting to pop as a result. Result.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. I think once the ball pressure gets a little bit better and, like, those things are going to start to really, really elevate it and take it to another level, because obviously you've got all that link to block out the sun. And Cooper's really mature. I. I, like, I was watching them early in the season. I was like, I don't think that you're going to have, like, the issues that we're seeing with some of the other rookies about just getting up to the level of what is the standard for communicating, for just the pace and the speed of the actions and what you're, what your accountability looks like at the NBA level. Like, I never thought that Cooper was going to struggle with that because he's just very dialed in. You all were talking about him just making the right play. That's just the way he is. You were saying like, like d' Angelo doing things to amuse himself. There might be a situation in a blowout where Cooper's having a good time, but very rarely. Like, I mean he's, he's very much about, he's just single minded about trying to win basketball games. So yeah, the defensive stuff is definitely, is definitely going to come and it's been, I mean it's been highs and lows. I mean the, the OKC game, that was the one where he banged his shoulder I think though, where he had the two points. But I mean, you know, he's had some good ones too. 22 points against the day before. Yeah, four assists or rebounds. So he said he's had some good games, but it's been very up and down. Like you all said, I'm, I'm cool.

[Kyle]

With where he is generally. I'm just not cool with the circumstances around him. And so like, once those things start to change, you'll see his game fall into place. And again, like once he starts to play with other stars or other creators, he's going to look like a totally different player.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's tough when a GM doesn't get the big stuff right or the small stuff right. Like you see a lot of GMs that perhaps don't have like the soft skills to deal with like superstars, which clearly I don't think worked out for the Mavs last season. But then like, perhaps they're just good at finding guys on the fringes, like working the waiver wire to pluck undrafted guys. And all of a sudden you have a contributor. But they haven't gotten either part right. I mean like Brandon Williams is the rotation. He's like, fine. But at one point Caleb Martin checked in. Barely playing at this point, but he checked. And I was like, why aren't you quitting, Grimes? You know, like especially considering the answer for that didn't get extended. Like he could easily just be playing on a make good deal, just getting shots up, being that sort of like release valve or just someone just like you could turn to, to create offense.

[Kyle]

Nico Harrison's Kingdom for Quinn Grimes on a qualifying offer right now.

[Justin Barrier]

Like, are you.

[Kyle]

Are you kidding me? This is why. That was a ridiculous trade then. And why, again, as you're saying, Justin, like, so many of these moves, even the micro ones, even the ones that aren't on a Luca level, like, cataclysmic event, just have not been good enough. Have not been, like, the kinds of moves you string together to build a successful team, which is wild considering they did all of those to build a finals team and then just punted it away.

[Justin Barrier]

That's the craziest thing, is that he did put together an insanely clever run to put together that template that we were talking about. Like, he did a fantastic job Getting Gafford and PJ absolutely is the perfect 4.5 to play next to Luka. And then they go get Kyrie, and it was just like. And then now everything since then has just been disaster. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Changed the fate of the NBA because he thought Luca was a dick. That's literally what happened. He just didn't like to deal with them, and he just completely changed history on the fly.

[Kyle]

Is it even that he thought Luca was a dick or was like, I don't really know how or want to talk to this guy, and therefore it's easier for my job to trade him.

[Justin Barrier]

I'm not going to get this guy to take Shantix or Wegovy or whatever it is to get him to stop smoking or whatever it is.

[Kyle]

I don't know.

[Justin Barrier]

Like, Shantic's still a thing. I really know I had a dad. My dad smokes. I remember hearing a lot of these drugs back in the day. But, yeah, I mean, that's Trip Report with Kyle. Man, you heard it. Hey, hit me up with the best ways to smoking cessation.

[Rob Mahoney]

My next episode, Zen Packs.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, it's. Yeah, I don't know. I forgot where I was going with that.

[Rob Mahoney]

But, yeah, I'll say this. He didn't have a particularly good game against the Wizards. Another. Another game that was way too close to for that. It should have been, but he was getting out in transition. The team overall was getting out in transition. It would be nice if the defensive success bred more speed on the other end. So they were just playing a little bit more free because they do have a lot of athletes on this team. I do worry, though, when AD Comes back and it seems like he might try to go sometime this week, like, then that's just another guy that's going to drag them down, Especially now that he's like, he's just pumping iron in the off season for some reason.

[Kyle]

Yeah, drag them down. In terms of speed, you're saying?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes, yes, better player, but just slower these days.

[Kyle]

I mean, their ideal is to play big and bulky and not run like that's what they want to do. And they also can't score inside and they can't shoot. And there's, I think, maybe one and a half players on this team that can dribble. So, yeah, they've got some problems, and Cooper has some problems as a result of that that we've seen manifest in all sorts of ways. But, yeah, I'm. I think ultimately the ups and downs so far feel, if not par for the course for a number one overall pick who was as highly touted as him, one who is dealing with these sorts of circumstances.

[Rob Mahoney]

There was.

[Justin Barrier]

There was a play, I think it might have been against the Wizards where Cooper made a jump shot. And, you know, they always on the broadcast, cut to the close as you're going back down the court, and Cooper had this look on his face, and he just goes. He, like, let out this big exhale. And I was like, man, I was like, this is. And he said it. I mean, he said, this is the first time Tim Cato was asking me. He was like, can you think of any time when they lost in the past? I was like, even his little eye. BL team from Maine, they won a lot of games. So psychologically, yeah, I'm sure it's a big. It's a big adjustment. And also, did you see Mark Cuban say the thing about. If he had, like, redefined or established his role, he dropped a little more of a not so subtle little thing. I don't know if that's like. Well, yeah, I was going to say, I don't know if that's the Danny Ains. Like, I would have gotten the superstar, but, yeah, I hadn't really.

[Rob Mahoney]

Log off Mark Cuban, like, he's been suggesting this for a very long time now because he realizes that, like, he's taking shrapnel for not doing enough to stop it, to put his body in front of it. And so he's going out of his way to be like, nope, wasn't me, wasn't me, wasn't me. Which is like, I guess is fine. I would probably do the same thing to distance myself from one of the worst trades in NBA history. But also, like, you're still a minority owner here. Like, you're not really solving much of the issue. And your issue was selling the team in the first place, so whatever.

[Kyle]

What a mess.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. Get in on the NBA action at any time with live betting on FanDuel. From the first whistle until the final buzzer, FanDuel is your home for live betting. So we're looking at Monday's slate in the NBA. Pretty robust one I would say. And of course we're looking at, you guessed it, Portland at Orlando. Portland on, I believe a five game road trip but still on the front end. Magic are on a back to back at home and they just lost to the Celtics. They might be motivated but at the same time they might be worn down. And Portland is guarding practically full court every possession at this point. So I'm going to take Portland plus two in Orlando. That game might be in the 80s because both of these teams might struggle to score, but I believe in the Blazers. Believe it or not, I know bet with FanDuel because FanDuel is giving new customers $150 in bonus bets if your first five dollar bet wins. So just visit FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to sign up today. Play your game with FanDuel, official sports betting partner of the NBA. 21 plus in present in select states or 18 plus in present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. First online real money wager only $5 first deposit required. Bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus batch which expires seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See [e-mail] gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. Your ambition just met its match with Robinhood. You play for the win. Not just on game day, every day channel that drive into your money. Trade stocks and ETFs, options and futures all on one platform. You expect more from yourself. Expect more from your money. Get started [e-mail] yourmoney. Your money your move Investing is risky. Securities trading is offered through Robinhood Financial LLC member sipc. A registered bro. Future trading is offered by Robinhood Derivatives LLC and not SPIC or FDIC Protected.

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[Rob Mahoney]

Right, well, let's transition then to something a little bit more cheery, which is the New Orleans Pelicans, believe it or not, since our last episode where we left them for dead. But at the very least, there are. There are glimmers of hopes. You can look off into the horizon, you could see a little bit of a glimmer.

[Kyle]

Very distantly, it's gleaming.

[Rob Mahoney]

At the very least, it's fun. Which is the complete opposite of the MAV situation where I'm watching Derek Queen the other day and I'm like, oh, he doesn't know what he's doing most of the time, but when he does, this is sick. And so, Kyle, former teammate of Cooper Flag, a guy that you watched in college, what have you thought so far about Queen?

[Justin Barrier]

We had a moment the other night where like three or four of the Mon Verd guys on the TV at the same time. McNe, Liam McNeely, Derek Queen, Asa Newell and Cooper Flag were all out there and the point guard is playing with the Bonds at byu. Anyway, Derek Queen, were you. Wait, what was it you asked me even about the.

[Rob Mahoney]

What was the first thoughts?

[Justin Barrier]

Oh, just in general. Sorry, I had to get that out in general, brace myself against the wall here. Queen is doing a lot of What? I've been in a situation.

[Kyle]

Hold on. Was there an earthquake? As you even just pondered, Derek Queen.

[Justin Barrier]

I cut this. Isaiah. I was stretching.

[Kyle]

I don't know. I don't know that we are cutting that.

[Justin Barrier]

God damn it. No, Queen has always been a tough one for me because when we were coming up, Justin read everything that I wrote about Queen, like, over the course of the year, where it was. It was a balancing act of like, holy moly. The talent that this guy has and you. And this plays out in the games where he does this thing where. And this. This still describe what I'm talking about. He'll. He'll kind of move along at this kind of laissez faire, like nonchalant, blah, blah, blah. And then he'll catch the ball and he'll just lock in. Like last night in that game against the spurs, you see him just kind of doing his saunter. He's like, yeah, it's cool. Everything's cool. Whatever. I got my long sleeve shirt on under my jersey. And then he catches it and you're like, oh, wow. He's like processing the game at a high level, attacking Wimby. He, like, refused to take no for an answer against Wimby. And you get to see him being like, I'm going to figure this out in the way that Shingun kind of goes at Wimby. But I think that's the balancing act of him. I ended up having him at eight just because the frustrations for me never caused the bottom to come out completely. Because I was just. I kept coming back to. And I think I kept coming back to those skills. And I think the interesting thing for them and one of the conversations about them that I would throw to you all is what position does he play? Is he actually a wing that has some inside, some interior kind of skills, or is he an interior player that is just not quite ready to stretch? Like, it's hard to kind of. He's a weird player, you know, because he kind of projects as a. As a hub, and we saw a lot of those things. I guess the question really is just going to come down to will he be able to. Will he be able to shoot it so that they can play him in more positions?

[Kyle]

It's what it is. What makes him tantalizing and potentially frustrating down the line, that he's in that exact space. Like, I believe in the hub stuff already, right? Like, you can see the talent.

[Rob Mahoney]

You.

[Kyle]

You can see him already not just processing it, Kyle, but, like, really mixing up the. I'M going to just like be on the perimeter doing the normal dribble handoff, keep the chains moving. Kind of offense that everyone relies on with really exciting, like, backdoor feeds that are. That are hitting guys in perfect timing, perfect spacing. Like, it's amazing how quickly just by giving, like, once he started getting minutes from Willie Green, all of us, and he's just one of the team's most important playmakers. And that is kind of the gravity of that sort of talent. But if you can't shoot. And I would say his handle is not the most reliable and certainly not as good as he thinks it is, which can be a problem in certain scenarios as he's trying to like, work through traffic or just like a little too casually against defenders who are pressing into him.

[Justin Barrier]

It's matchup dependent. I would say we can get more into that.

[Kyle]

Totally fair. But. But I think I believe in him as a hub. If he's not a hub, I don't know what he is.

[Rob Mahoney]

I see a lot of modern Z Bo in him, which I guess the, the immediate comp is Baby Jokic to the point where that, like, that is on his literal basketball reference page. I think nine different players can claim that nickname at this point. And you could tell like, when a player's reached a certain level, like, then, like, he just gets other guys paid, just like hoping that they could be 25 of that because we also got Young Hansen in the draft. I guess Danny Wolf is like a little bit like this, where a lot of guys are just like, oh, center who could be a hub and there's just like a skilled passer.

[Kyle]

But can you be a Baby Jokic if you like, low key, maybe can't score inside that much. Is that a thing? Like, I just worry about Derek Queen finishing over contests from actual bigs.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, a lot of what I. What we saw over the past couple of games was him just like, trying to back dudes down. The poorly he tried it against Clay Thompson at one point, didn't move him, but yet still tried to like, do a fall away on him. I just, it seems like the power skill combination is going to be his bread and butter. We'll see what comes later. But that's why I think of Z Bo. Not only because of like, some of the, like attributes, but also like, this guy has like a spirit to him that is reminiscent of Z Bo where he's like, I want to maul you, but like, isn't this so fun? Are we just like, isn't this great? We're just like having fun on the basketball court.

[Justin Barrier]

He is funny. I was telling you all that he does have a sort of childlikeness about him that he wears braces. Yeah. And he had a play last night where he had been dealing with the physicality. I mean so. And we'll, we'll get into this about what Rob was saying about the handle. Like where and when is it functional? When he's like. I think the biggest thing is when another team plays a modern big or play like he had Gafford guarding him in one game. I know at one point Gafford was just not equipped to guard a guy rough, vaguely that size who can handle the ball like that with craftiness. And Derek's ability to use sort of to improvise with his feet. Like he's very good and he's not like pre scripted in a way. Like he can get towards the rim and take these big steps and cause problems, angular problems. But something that we saw in summer league that was interesting was whenever we had Leonard Miller, whenever we get these big like four or five like long powerful wings in the NBA like the Tari Eason type guys like those players caused Derek a little bit of trouble. Like we saw Sohan annoying him. But whenever he gets a true big on him he causes those problems. The other the issue is speaking to the positional thing.

[Kyle]

Rob's.

[Justin Barrier]

Rob's just like grinning. I don't know why. I don't feel good about it. Stop grinning.

[Kyle]

I just enjoy your takes. Is there, is there something wrong with that?

[Rob Mahoney]

You're our queen.

[Justin Barrier]

Making me paranoid here. No.

[Kyle]

Always worried about very serious basketball players.

[Justin Barrier]

What are you thinking? No, the problem is that he's not much of a rent protector and you can't have that. Same like I'm kind of. I'm kind of. And this was the thing I criticized him for over and over again is just not paying attention when the ball goes up on the glass. He could be. He could just feast on the glass because his hands are so good, but just sort of locking in just a little too late on defense. Like he's not a rim protector. His hands are really good. He swipes really good. He'll just straight up rip people. But then he just. He presents a lot of problems I think on that front in terms of you got to play a rim protector next to him or else I think you're going to just. You're not going to be able to capitalize on the offensive stuff that he gets the. Yes.

[Kyle]

That's going to be the Huge uphill battle for him is can he ever become the kind of spacer and like, aggressive hub on the perimeter where you can play him with another five? Or will he ever get to even like an adequate level? You know, like, this is where the baby Jokic comp is instructive, is like, can he get to a Jokic level defensively, right, of just kind of like being active, getting. Getting steals with those hands, like, doing other things that can offset the lack of rim protection. Because, I mean, Kyle, I think you were very generous in saying he's not much of a rim protector. Like, he's uninterested in it. He is not paying attention to it. It is just like a part of the game that exists in a totally different dimension from him.

[Rob Mahoney]

And he's. He's big, but he's not massive in the way that Jokic or some of these other, like, true fives come with skill, come in. And we've seen this time and time again, though, if it's. If you're skilled and you're a big man, you're a four who needs the perfect five to complement you. Like, look at what's happening with Sengun, who's having an awesome season. Like, they're doing less of the double big situation, but they're still doing heaping amounts of it because it's such an advantage and partly because Sengun just isn't the shooter there. It's just like it's a problem that isn't going to go away. But we keep getting these big men who are skilled, but you always need to handcuff them. With an actual big man, it's like it's not going to change at a certain point. And so I think ultimately he'll end up as a 4 next to a true 5. Hopefully someone who could space. We'll see if he could provide the spacing or the other guy can. But the problem overall, Kyle, is just like, that's Zion a different type of player, certainly, but, like, he is a four who needs a spacing five next to him. And so part of the concern I had with the trade overall if, like, you're giving away next year's pick is that those guys overlap a certain degree. And unfortunately, the games where Zion has been out recently, the team has been really fun. Jordan Poole hasn't been there as well. Like, years just seems like completely unleashed. Trey Murphy was awesome against the Spurs. Like, if they just didn't show up the rest of the season pool and Zion, this team would at the very least be a More attractive product.

[Kyle]

And Trey Murphy never looks more athletic than when he plays with someone like Derek Queen who's like hitting him back door for dunks. It's like all of a sudden he looks like a totally different player when you have that kind of movement out there.

[Justin Barrier]

It's funny that they have these like, facsimile versions of. It's the Seinfeld Bizarro episode with Feldman. And, you know, Rob thinks that show's funny. I just wanted to clarify.

[Kyle]

Probably the best sitcom of all time. So. Yeah, that one's. That one's pretty good.

[Justin Barrier]

Okay. Good to know that you like something widely accepted. So, yeah, yeah, it is funny that they have those guys. I know that we'll get to fears, but the guy that always came to mind for me was he just. He has a lot of Boris kind of in his personality as a player where Boris would just be like, I'm not interested in what's going on right here. And then he would get in a lineup with a team of other guys that could really play, and you'd be like, is that the most skilled player of all time? Like. Like, that's kind of how Derek comes and goes. It's like he just. He's like that. And I'm still. I'm still holding stock that I going to figure it out.

[Kyle]

And Justin, you're right that it's. It's totally changed the viewing experience for the Pelicans. And everything about the feel of the team changes when a guy like this starts getting involved and isn't just like an abstract conversation we're having about the picks that were traded to get him. It's like, no, this is a real, tangible, incredibly skilled basketball player who could do all sorts of exciting things. The fact that we're even having an actual conversation about, like, can he and Zion play together in these contexts is a good conversation to have because it's happening because Derek Queen looks good and looks exciting and looks talented. Like, I don't even care that he's trying to throw bobs from like 3/4 court. Like, I don't even give a shit. Like, keep doing it. Keep pushing and pushing and see how far this thing can go.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's unfortunate that the trade is going to linger over him for so long because even if he play, if he was like rookie of the year, they could still easily give away a top five pick. And so this is going to haunt him for a while. Maybe it's motivation. We'll see. But it is fun too, because Fears on the. On the Other side of this there is not only being fun in his own right, but also there's a nice little comparison there where you have like the slow and steady back down sort of big man and then you have fears who is just so lightning quick Kyle where it's just like his ability not only to translate his speed to the NBA level immediately, but the fluidity with which he's doing it and the start and stop stuff has been pretty remarkable thus far.

[Justin Barrier]

He's a smooth mover man. That was the thing about like I, I worried I. He was the guy that I pulled down that I couldn't hold. I couldn't hold steady in the same way that I did with, with Queen where I was. I was just worried about the shooting and those things that we can unpack. But in terms of him as a mover man, I mean, absolutely, he gets wherever he wants to. He kind of reminded me a little bit of Trey, Trey Mann's start stop how like just hard and violent it is. Granted there I think that Jeremiah is a better passer than Trey could ever dream of being already. But he just. They both just look really comfortable in the speed of the NBA game as like very just sort of off speed pitches. The way, you know, Queen slows you down and then kills you with the start stop. Like Jeremiah can play that way. I guess it just kind of comes down to a question of he is small. Like they as a duo I think are just going to present some questions because he. People are going to go at him. Granted he's not a bad athlete. It's not like he's some ground bound, can't do anything kind of guy if he can shoot the ball. It's just you run into a situation where even if you can add. We've seen with Trey Young, if you can add incredible amount of pluses, like if you're going to be a liability at one point that, that how can you climb out of that if you're going to be a smaller guy that seems go at constantly.

[Kyle]

Yeah, I mean he's, he's small in terms of stature, but he's lanky. Like, like I think there are ways in which he can kind of offset it potentially. But I, I love what you're saying about the, the kind of changing paces or the, the dueling banjos sort of effect that these two guys can have. I guess it's not dueling banjos because they're different. It's a banjo and a timpani or something. Like there's very different things you say Banjo.

[Justin Barrier]

So I would understand it.

[Kyle]

I did. I was trying to speak your language. I just stepped right in it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. Is Rob not full Southern? Do you not claim it's.

[Kyle]

It's a different country. Yeah, it's different. Yeah, it's a different thing.

[Justin Barrier]

A touch, A touch different. I was trying to pull up. Yeah, he. I mean, yeah, he's not tiny.

[Rob Mahoney]

So about.

[Justin Barrier]

He's about six, three, so.

[Kyle]

Yeah, yeah. But I like, I want those two guys playing together as much as humanly possible so that they can figure out that dynamic. Because I mean Jeremiah Fear's incredible at making plays right now. Not. I mean he looks like a 19 year old point guard when it comes to like trying to run the team. All like the time and score stuff, the game management stuff. That's a long term project. For now he's popping off the screen and I mean that like literally when he comes around a screen, like you can see the effect that it's having on a defense. You can feel all the possibilities starting to unlock. And so the more that he and Derek Queen are playing together, figuring out what their chemistry can look like, I think that's the most exciting version of the Pelicans future at this point.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. The size thing is, is pretty fascinating though because it is in kind of a macro sense. Like if you're trying to build your building blocks from the jump here and it seems like that's what Joe Dumars did, just like try to get two guys he could build around and kind of turn the page on what's been happening there. It's tough because you look around the league and there are so many teams that are just huge at every position. Like I won't say the team in the Pacific Northwest that's doing this, but also like OKC for. For instance, like there's just like at a certain point you're going to hit your head on a ceiling. And I do wonder, Kyle, like how do you weigh just someone who could be electric versus long term concerns.

[Justin Barrier]

You know that counts as a swear jar because you did the thing where you said the F word and you refused to say the word but you made me think of the word. So you effectively said so. I think that counts as. I think that counts as a swear jar for.

[Rob Mahoney]

I've had some, I've had some people suggest that we need to get up. There we go. Patreon going just to fund my swear jar contributions. So the people are behind me.

[Kyle]

I'm down to do it. But you have to match Like, I think whatever people donate, you have to match or vice versa. Like, we got to get some system going here.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't. I don't make that much money. I'm not.

[Kyle]

You could talk about the blazers less. That's something you could do.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, I'll die before I do that.

[Kyle]

No.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'll set my garden on fire.

[Kyle]

Oh, God, no. It's simply the last thing that any of us want.

[Justin Barrier]

It's too. It's too wet in Portland. You wouldn't be able to set that. You'd just be sitting there trying to light it. You've probably never lit a fire. I had to explain that.

[Kyle]

Wow.

[Justin Barrier]

No, so.

[Rob Mahoney]

I use the starter. I'm not, like, using rocks like you out there.

[Kyle]

Soft hands. Doesn't barrier. That's what we call them, you know?

[Indeed Sponsor]

Yeah.

[Justin Barrier]

A lot of callous on there. No, I. I mean, it is going to be an issue. I mean, if you have. If you're going to assume that they're going to be keeping Murphy around. Missy's a big, athletic guy. Yeah. I mean, you just kind of have to quote our guy Sharks, once you draft one and you lean in on one smaller guard, you're out of the small guard business. I don't know what that means for Alvarado. So, from henceforth, every decision they make, if they believe in this, in this duo, and it. I guess this, if they do, that might say something about how they feel about Zion long term. But everything, if you believe in it, everything after this, you just kind of have to go from.

[Rob Mahoney]

From.

[Justin Barrier]

From here. But I don't know, like, Rob, I mean, what. How do you. Where do you go from there? How do. Is it. Is it just big, lengthy wings? Do you need a better rim protector than Eve, Missy? Are they. It's fun. And it's funny that we're going from what you all said last week to this, where we're like, do they have the blueprint? Like, that's a.

[Rob Mahoney]

If they had a top five pick to put on top of what they have now, they'd be in the money, my friend. Like, they'd be really interesting.

[Kyle]

The problem before was there was no lines on the blueprint, right? Like, we were just looking at a blank page as the team was like, oh, and seven. And being like, what the fuck is this? And now you can at least see something coming together. Will that thing work? Like, will the Queen Fears partnership 10 years from now feel like a successful one or one that got ejected or one that bought, like, you know, hit a comfortable middle but never fully succeeded. Those are obvious possibilities. Like, I think the most likely outcome for any pairing of rookies is that they will fail, that they're not going to reach their ultimate potential, that this will not be a pairing of All Stars that will carry the Pelicans to a championship. But they could be fun and they could be exciting and they have time and they have the opportunity to do it. So now that they're here, I agree with you. It creates a whole host of other problems you now need to solve. Like I like Eve Missy, but like, you need an adult rim protector, frankly. Like someone who is a little. Someone who's not going to jump at literally every pump fake.

[Rob Mahoney]

Right.

[Kyle]

Like, if. If Derrick Queen is going to be a little spacey and going to need time to kind of figure out defensive fundamentals, the guy you want to pair him with is somebody who's a little more responsible about when he leaves his feet.

[Justin Barrier]

Can't have a Fallon machine next to the guy who's not totally paying attention. That doesn't work. Do we have second half of. I'm going to. Here we go. Devil's advocate. Do we have second half of spurs game boner right now?

[Rob Mahoney]

A little bit, yes.

[Justin Barrier]

Like, you know, I'm just trying to just put that out there. Are we. Are we of our right mind at this moment?

[Rob Mahoney]

They're going to lose a shit ton of games. They're going to be one of the three worst teams in the league no matter what they try to do.

[Kyle]

We're talking about, can these young guys be good and interesting? And I think they've both shown that they could potentially be good and interesting. A lot of that's going to depend on the shooting clicking and I mean, that's a whole separate conversation with fears, even from Queen, although I think his mid range has looked pretty good and pretty comfortable for him. Yeah, I mean, every single one looks like a different shot, so I don't think that's a great sign. But he's hitting enough of them that I feel okay about where that part of everything is.

[Rob Mahoney]

Pelicans are doing the bare minimum. Congrats. Let's shift now to another team trying to figure itself out on the fly here and play through some injuries. We got to talk about the Charlotte Hornets and first and foremost, our guy Con Knipple, who whenever I say his name, I think of the British Bake off voice saying it. He just sounds like a. Like an English pastry.

[Kyle]

A pastry. You've literally never heard of that. No one in any country around the world has ever eaten except for the Brits.

[Rob Mahoney]

Somehow you need to make 12 con knipples.

[Kyle]

What do you think is in a con can?

[Justin Barrier]

Apple.

[Rob Mahoney]

Jesus buttercream. American buttercream.

[Kyle]

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a rough puff situation. American buttercream. Jesus Christ.

[Justin Barrier]

I love that Rob dared you to continue doing that, and you did. I appreciate your commitment.

[Rob Mahoney]

Your con canipples must space the floor and include gelatin.

[Justin Barrier]

Oh, okay.

[Kyle]

Well, too much. Too much. We want too much.

[Rob Mahoney]

That was good. No, I was proud of that one. Anyway. So con Canyeple had 30 there against Miami.

[Justin Barrier]

Pretty good.

[Indeed Sponsor]

He did.

[Justin Barrier]

In the absence of our boy Lamelo. He's our boy. I think we could all agree in.

[Kyle]

The extended absence of our other boy, Brandon Miller, like, they needed a lot from him, and I think he acclimated himself pretty well to a level of usage and role that he hadn't been filling this season.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, let's start here, Kyle, because you had floated the idea during last draft cycle that knipple could be potentially a point guard for Duke. I doubt he would be that at this level, but can a Miller knipple plus another guy be enough as a timeshare if they were to ever trade Lamelo? Has he shown enough or is he starting to show enough? It's only been 10 games. We should mention in order to, like, perhaps assume that sort of role.

[Kyle]

Wait, we just said Lamelo is our guy and you're trying to trade him?

[Justin Barrier]

We're going to trade him. I shook my Khan looks that good, I think, right?

[Rob Mahoney]

I told you I was out after the sixers shot. I'm. I'm taking a break.

[Kyle]

This is ridiculous.

[Justin Barrier]

You got to. If you're going to go with Lamelo, be. Be a Lamello boy. You got to sign up for all of it. You can't be wishy washy. Yeah, Con. This was something that. That during the process. Yeah. In the fall, I had been watching a lot of his tape coming up to that, like in. I think it was even before the championship classic. It's like their first game. I had watched him operate with the ball in his hands enough to watch him use his weight in the mid range and play it, you know, the play, take a drink, play off two feet thing that people have said over and over and over and over again, but he was really good at bumping and getting to his own shot. I'd seen him pass. Now, I'm not going to act like he's some technician who's the most manipulative, creative passer ever. He has limitations in terms of things that he can get to, but he, he feels the flow of the game in a way. I think that is pretty, there's not a lot of latency there. Like, he's up to speed. He can hit shots. He also is just really good about knowing when to, when to head. Like when to, when to move on and when to, when to dribble the ball and like seek something out. Like, because he's. One of my favorite things about con is when he back screens you, you feel it like, and he is, he really leans into using that. So he might dribble the ball and throw a lob. He might, he's just very invested in small parts of the game. So you don't see wastefulness from him. But to answer your question, yeah, I mean, I think in turn, in a, in a, with a smaller slice of the pie, taking maybe not full ownership like he did against Miami. I think he's absolutely capable of that. It's going to be bumpy for a while, but he's shown to me that he has kind of all the aspects going like for it.

[Kyle]

Yeah. I think what makes him exciting is the idea that he could play different roles for a team at different phases of the game.

[Rob Mahoney]

Right.

[Kyle]

Like he's one of these guys who could be a primary first stretch with the bench unit, a secondary with someone like Lamelo or whoever. Like, he just could fit into a lot of different circumstances. And it's because of all that stuff Kyle just laid out like all of the little ways in which you make yourself more than just a shooter. And some of that is the screening which not only does he lean into that, the Hornets have really leaned into that and using him in that way, some of it is like I, I, I found him to be a surprisingly competitive and physical rebounder. Just like pulling the ball away from bigger, stronger guys who should be boxing him out but aren't. And so if you're bringing all these other things to the table, you can live with the ebbs and flows of who you are as a shooter and scorer. Although at this point they're kind of all, all flows. Which is the good one. Flows are the good one.

[Rob Mahoney]

Flow.

[Kyle]

Yeah. I mean he's pure flow right now. Like the shot is looking really silky, really good. I think there's a lot to his all around game to recommend. Even that goes above and beyond all that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. So three straight 20 or more point games on the record here. All of those happen to be without Lamelo ball. Let's just put that in the, the old notebook. But you're right, it's just like the intuitive play that just jumps out for him. To Kyle's point. Like, he's very like compact, like just like very stout. And he knows how to just like use that to get a low center of gravity. Like, there was a couple plays where he like, he tipped it away on Khale Ware, who is just all athleticism and just like a freak athlete. But Khan is just like smart and knows how to play the angles and the timing. And he did it again where he tied him up and like blocked him. And so he's just like, he's constantly making solid plays. He's not going to give you a lot of sizzle. There aren't going to be a lot of just like highlight plays, for instance. But like in conjunction Kyle with someone like Miller, for instance, or what will perhaps come later, it just, it makes a lot of sense. He seems like he could just do a lot of different things and that type of player is going to be effective no matter how or where you put him.

[Justin Barrier]

I think if you're going to lean into the sort of the ball zipping around. These guys can hit crazy dribble, pull up stuff. These guys can rock it off of screens and make just really creative plays. I think it makes sense to have. If you have somebody getting someone who is. Has a high sort of baseline of skill the way that Khan does. And I think Khan and Kalkbrenner, I was talking to somebody, a buddy this weekend about those two guys. They just have a really high slugging percentage on unremarkable plays. Like, they just set like Colbrenner is even more boring than Kahn, which we can get to. But that, that to me just makes the most sense. And yeah, there was a. There was a play. It was off. Offensively, he got by Davion, which we know, no small feet, but at his body type was just interesting. He. He sold him sort of a head, shoulder fake with the three, which obviously he hits them. So in a transition, I had it pulled up from three in transition. He's almost at 47%. So he's. He's knocking him down. And then he did like a long stride and just shot. Just did one of those like where you don't even really push it. You just kind of teardrop it off the high glass over Khalil Ware. And I was like, at his stature and stuff like that, you just don't see a lot of guys who are able to. To do that. Like, it's not the most creative thing in the world. But on defense, though, I was going to say he's a little more fleet of foot, I think, than he gets credit for. He's not a big gambler, like, you know, and if you wall into. If you run into him, he's solid, man. Yeah, it's. It's. And it's only. He's only going to get stronger.

[Kyle]

Well, it's all an extension of what we've been talking about as far as, like, all of these seemingly relatively minor contributions that sum up into just playing good basketball. And it is frankly alarming to see people in a Charlotte Hornets jersey who do that, like, to the. The. The whiplash from Tijon Salon to this in terms of just, like, readiness to play NBA basketball is striking.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, they got scared straight.

[Kyle]

Like, just draft people who could play, you know, like, it's not a remarkable concept. I understand sometimes you want to take the big swing on. On the project and the potential, but sometimes you just pick the guy who can play well.

[Rob Mahoney]

Kalk Brenner, I guess, fits that. Currently shooting 81.3% from the field.

[Kyle]

Seems good.

[Rob Mahoney]

Seems pretty good. Now he has taken 48 total shots. How many of them are outside of the restricted circle? Not just outside of the paint, but outside of the restricted circle?

[Kyle]

Two, maybe five. Okay, yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

So, yes. But outside of the paint itself, just three. So it's all catch ball, dunk ball, but when you're that tall, it's effective.

[Kyle]

He does not even think about stepping outside his role, does not even consider the possibility. It has never occurred to him to do it.

[Justin Barrier]

There's institutionalized.

[Kyle]

You know, there's something admirable about that, but also constraining in that clearly, like, who he could ultimately be, I have no idea, because we've barely seen him even attempt anything. But who he is right now, this sort of, like, low mistake, high efficiency, sort of big who. Yes, they're all coming from the restricted area. Some of them are spoon feds. Some of them are on the rolls. A lot of them are on the offensive glass, which, like, that's a huge addition that he can bring to the game. If he's that active on the glass for the majority of his career, that's a big thing. But, like, again, this is a team that needed some of that kind of stability at the 5. They'll take anything to fill out the rotation minutes. And the fact that Kalkburner has been able to fill them so reliably, I mean, that's. That's mana from heaven by Hornet standards.

[Justin Barrier]

I think something for Cochran, and I think he learned this. Granted, he's older. He's almost. He's pushing 24 years old. So I think when we compare him to. Not that we're going to do it on this show, but like, somebody like, come on, Malwaj, who's a baby, or just some of these younger players, it's like, I think Kalkbrenner had a long time to kind of learn in college how to just pick, like, pick his battles wisely. He doesn't. You were talking about going for everything the way Missy does. Cockbrenner knows I'm gigantic, which I don't think people realize just how big he. He's like 7:2 and change with plus four wingspan. So gigantic hands. He's really tall.

[Rob Mahoney]

He just knows he's listed at 7. I was like. I was watching him out there. I was like, this guy's like 7 4.

[Kyle]

He's a big old boy. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Maybe he's just, like, so lean that, like, he just seems taller as a result, because he just looks like Slenderman or something.

[Kyle]

The bean pole effect.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is that what they call it? I don't know.

[Kyle]

I just made it up. It is now.

[Justin Barrier]

That was a copyright, I think. No, I mean, with that barefooted. He was 7:1 at the combine, so he's at least that. So, yeah. I think he just knows he's a big obstacle, and I think when you watch him, he's like, no. I mean, if you come in here, I'm just going to kind of. I'm not going to like, jump and dive at your shot, but you see him affect shots, really. You just see him kind of compress the court up the lane. I mean, people get him. He's not the fastest guy in the world.

[Rob Mahoney]

People.

[Justin Barrier]

People go around him, but he sort of turns what would be pain attempts into contested, you know, 10 to 15 foot attempts. And you see that repeatedly. And for a team like the Hornets. That's my question for you all. Was like, early in the year, I think it was. Bill and I were talking about it. I was like, well, ideally, you'd have him like, in your rotation on, like, a good team. Do we think that Kalkbrenner is capable of being a starting level, or is he a rotation level? Big on a. Like, can you imagine him battling Hartenstein and Chet for. For seven games?

[Rob Mahoney]

A little tougher on that front?

[Kyle]

He's probably.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. But I'll toss it to you all on that.

[Kyle]

Yeah. Because he's bigger than he is necessarily. Physical, like, he's not a bruiser per se. He is long and he is active. And yeah, like, his mobility has its limitations in a way that I think would really rear their ugly head. If you ask him to do way too much on a team that's actually competing for something, maybe on a good team he's like again, like a version of Kalkbrenner down the line. On a good team maybe is like Luke Cornett, right. Like, like filling that sort of role coming off the bench, maybe spot starting while some other guy is injured for 15 games in the middle of the season. But ultimately, like, this is who he is, right? Like, we, we, we're seeing the parameters, we're seeing some of the constraints. I would like to see him round out and add some things, but also I don't know how realistic that is. Like, I don't know where to forecast growth that would allow him to be that kind of guy.

[Justin Barrier]

Does he have. Yeah, that's what I would ask you. I don't. It was basically a free agency signing. That's what we were joking at the, at the draft, like, like, I thought the Hawks might go for him. I was like, this is a free agent big that's gonna play.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, yeah, I could see Kalkburner ultimately ending up as like the fourth big. So perhaps not being like a steady three man rotation, but he is the guy you count on when you just need what he provides, which is just rim protection and just the big old target.

[Kyle]

Yeah, it would be nice on the rim protection front. Like, he is literally second in the NBA in blocks right now.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes, yes. Very like real Walker Kessler type right now. And so like, if he has that, if he has like a defined skill, he'll find a place for it. But otherwise you're like wondering when you get diminished into a role and when you're coming off the bench, you kind of really need to pop in a certain area and like, if he doesn't have stretch, like, we can't just turn to him to provide something. But if he can continue to protect the rim at this rate, like, I think there's going to be a place for him on rosters for a while.

[Kyle]

Definitely.

[Rob Mahoney]

But we should talk about the last guy on the vaunted Charlotte Hornets rookie class. Another Duke guy, Scion James. Right? Yeah, I'm never gonna get that right. Tell us about Sion.

[Kyle]

Look, I have a lot of respect for both of the guys we've talked about. Con Canopy, Ryan Cockbrenner.

[Justin Barrier]

Oh, no. Interesting. Are you drop A hammer.

[Kyle]

This is. My guy is unequivocally one of my guys. Like, I, I love watching him play. And I get the sneaking suspicion based on his like, creeping minutes total that Charles Lee is having the same relationship with watching Sion James play that I am. Which is. You just come to the realization that the Hornets play their best basketball with him on the floor. Like, the energy, the defense, the fact that he is making every goddamn shot he takes, which I don't know if that's a thing I can expect to continue, but it's happening right now. Another guy who just makes like, good adult decisions on the floor. And I am, I am locked into the Seon James experience as a, like, high effort defender who's taking on difficult assignments, who's contributing to the flow of the offense and hitting all these shots. Like, what's not to like about a player like that?

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. This won't continue. But he is. No, I mean, not overall the shot on. You don't think he's going to shoot 60% from three for the season, 64.7% on his spot up looks right now?

[Kyle]

No, I mean, if he has crazy.

[Justin Barrier]

If he's open 1, 2. I mean, he can, he can hit shots. Like, there's no doubt about it. He's the, he's the body type. I think I'm outing myself as sort of a like a soft finesse score. He's the body type that when they show up at the gym, I'm just like, oh, man. Like, he just. He's the type that you just can't get away from if he's involved in a play.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Justin Barrier]

He just. It's that drew, like fire hydrant just.

[Kyle]

Yeah. Bigger, like wing slash tank is his official position, I would say.

[Justin Barrier]

So he's a number two.

[Kyle]

Yeah.

[Justin Barrier]

Like. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Kyle's revealing is. He's not about that. That smoke. You know, he is about that actually.

[Justin Barrier]

Close to say it's something else. But. Yeah, no, no, he, he. He just seems like he'd be annoying just because if he's. For guys who want to get downhill, it's just. You're just going to. You're not going to bounce off of him. You're going to hit him and just die because he's. He's got that kind of. He's got that kind of frame and it's the same thing as Kalkbrenner. I think they've just added. I kept saying. I kept using the word sanity. They just keep using these guys who don't have notions about who they are that need to be disabused, which I think in and of itself is. This wastefulness is something that kills a lot of NBA careers, because these guys have ambition, which is, you know, great, you know, but to hang around in. In this job market, you just see guys like this emerge and Will Richard, who I'm sure will mention, at least in passing, another guy like that, but yes, these are. These are adults, to use the word, again.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Good job, Hornets. Just hitting singles. Look at you.

[Kyle]

Maybe doubles.

[Rob Mahoney]

Could be doubles.

[Justin Barrier]

Get MJ out of there.

[Rob Mahoney]

Before we get into the kind of the. The grab bag section, wanted to talk briefly about Vijay Edgecom, who've talked about a couple pods already at this point, but just keeps doing stuff. I have in my notes mostly Dothraki war cries, because that's just all that he elicits from me. Do you guys have anything like.

[Justin Barrier]

You wrote them out? That's what that's like.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's go in different capitalizations. Like, sure. Three times a new one.

[Kyle]

That's a lot for you. Like, not a lot of players get that kind of reaction from Justin Barrier, so I'm. I'm impressed. I'm intrigued.

[Rob Mahoney]

Especially outside of Portland.

[Kyle]

I mean, look at that. Yeah. Unless you're Danny Avdia. Come on.

[Rob Mahoney]

He wishes. Let me tell you.

[Kyle]

Did bring it up.

[Justin Barrier]

You're right.

[Kyle]

You're right.

[Rob Mahoney]

But do you guys have any other, like, newer notes on. On stuff he's doing?

[Kyle]

I just keep waiting for the shoe to, like, not the other shoe to jump. Like, I'm waiting for the reality check on the shooting in particular. And I know he's like. He's maybe kind of hitting it now in a way where the threes are finally starting to whiff, but I just don't know what to expect from him in that particular regard, because the version of the Sixers that has a Tyrese Maxey and a VJ Edgecomb, who is a dynamite creator and a perimeter shooter, is dramatically different from the one who is just, you know, Tyrese Maxey and this great slasher next to him, or Tyrese Maxey and this, you know, compelling score and creator who has these other holes in his game. Like, that's. That's kind of the thing I'm watching. And the, like, his makes were so anchored early and have kind of tapered off late, where I'm waiting to see what the regularized version of VJ looks like.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, I mean, for me. For me watching him last year, I was like, this is a guy who, if he's I didn't know how dynamic a shooter he was going to be and I didn't know how, how dynamic a handle he would have. And granted it's just really hard and it's something that you have to kind of do every year. When you watch some of these guys this, just imagine them in better space. And I feel like the looks that he's getting, the straight line drives, I think we're just seeing the highest, the strongest drinks in his bag really pop. Like we were talking about how he caught that ball off of, off of a. Attacking a closeout, off of a catch. And he just did one of the nastier like Euros where his body bent like a spring into the lane and it was very Dwyane Wade esque. And when he's doing those types of things in space for me, I'm like, can he be much more than like just a simple attacker Whenever he's operating in a ball screen, is he going to be somebody that can really hold court and really orchestrate for like a whole possession? I don't know. But I also don't know that he necessarily has to. The shooting. I'm kind of with you, Rob. I'm like, is it going to come back? I mean he's, he's at about 40% on spot ups. When he was shooting the ball well in summer league, the, when he shot the ball really, really well, when he was shooting those like mid range kind of coming off curls and things like that, I immediately just said to myself because I ended up having him at five and I was just like, shit. Like the one thing that I. Because that was the wager. Whenever we were talking about him, I'm like, is he going to be able to dribble and he's going to be able to shoot? I was like, I feel like he's probably in that support supportive, but I'm, I'm moving more in the direction of like it's on the table that he could become a star. Like for real.

[Kyle]

Yeah.

[Justin Barrier]

And I think obviously not a hot take.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, he was isolating against Brandon Ingram in crunch time. It was just like. And he looked completely comfortable. Like he pulled up on him and shot it over him. It was a real like winner versus loser going on here because then Brandon Ingram was on the other end of the court like smashing bottles because he up a play and making like the attendants pick it up, which was like complete horseshit.

[Justin Barrier]

And I thought, yeah, I was going to say embarrassing. I just don't, I don't think an apology in private Is, is acceptable in that situation. I don't want to hear that like, oh, he went to him and apologized, blah, blah, blah. You can't humiliate your team like you're someone, your co worker like that. Like, it's over. Like, you shouldn't have done that like that. I was, I was really, really, really put off by that.

[Rob Mahoney]

All right, let's, let's go to kind of like notes and other stuff that we've been picking up here. Should we start with Ace Bailey or. I think like the fact that we haven't talked about him at this point is probably tells the tale there. Just like all the swagger from preseason just completely, just disappeared. He looks lost out there. It almost feels like Kyle. They're like trying to shoehorn him into a role perhaps and make him earn things by playing the right way and he just is like kind of stuck as a result.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, I mean that's going to be tough if you're really only about. I was watching the, the Algo suggested a Nick Nurse clinic and I was, it was not, it wasn't too long.

[Kyle]

I was like, I mean, that algorithm's got you pegged. Let's be honest.

[Justin Barrier]

Let me. It was attacking switches and Nick Nurse just got talking about, you know, if you're, if you're not going to do this, if you're not going to do this. He was basically like, if you're not going to attack the rim, if you're not going to be passing the ball, if you're only going to be wanting to, to take these types of tough shots. And I was like, damn, that sounds a lot like Ace Bailey. And it was like from the summer where I was like, oh, is he just sort of revealing his inner, you know, monologue, dialogue, whatever it is about why, who they were going to pick? Ace is just really. He has a narrow sort of thing that he does. He's a shot maker. And I, I thought when I was looking at this team, I don't think that they're asking him to do more role wise. I mean, maybe in terms of. Because every time he dribbles the ball, something bad seems to happen.

[Kyle]

Yeah. If anything, like Justin's saying they're asking him to do less role wise. Like they're, they kind of like all the seasons. Yes. Like run, run. A lot of off ball action, a lot of running through the curls in a way that like leans him less like shot maker and more just like average NBA shooter. Like it's, it's weirdly leaning away from the Things he was supposedly good at, which was already not the most versatile skill set.

[Justin Barrier]

What is he not doing that we think he should be doing?

[Kyle]

I'm not even saying that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, he's like. It seems like he's butting up against the structure that they're trying to instill when it feels like he's at his best, just, like, letting it rip in.

[Justin Barrier]

Terms of worth, like, creating for himself. Is that what we're saying? Like, Because I guess, yeah, this is.

[Kyle]

This is the conundrum. Like, I just. Will he ever be good enough at that to justify doing it? Versus, Is it a worthy endeavor to try to slowly nudge him and mold him into being a different kind of player? Like, I think it's worth. It's worth the experiment.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I mean, you could also look at this the other way, where it's like, what did Utah expect when they reached in order to get him in there, when they basically dragged him kicking and streaming to Utah? And also, like, they kind of buried him with all these guys. Like, Utah is crazy. Where it's like, some of the guys that they drafted more recently, like Cody Williams and some of these other guys probably aren't going to pan out, but they just have guys on top of guys on top of guys, at the very least, need minutes in order to find themselves. Like, and so Kessler goes down, and it's a bummer, but at the same time, like, Bailey needs to play, you know, and, like, so if you could find more minutes for him and allow him to butt up against the. The, like, the fine structure of your offense, like, he needs to be able to adjust to that or plow through it and be, like, beyond it. And he needs minutes to do that. And so, like, I could see it both ways, honestly.

[Justin Barrier]

I guess it just depends on what kind of. What kind of lab you want him to have. Because if you want him to do things where he has the ball and he's making decisions, I would just be like, all right, SLC Stars is down the hall. Like, it's not. It's going to be bad. I mean, unless they're. I don't. And I wouldn't want to put Jazz fans through that again after what they. Losing the lottery odds the way that they did. They got screwed this year. So granted, they're probably going to try to do it again anyway. I just. It's interesting because players like this, even if they have the ambition to do more, I mean, we've seen with MPJ how well and how, like, a great, great player sort of implied a role for him that suited him best as a cutter. As a. It's very, very similar. And then we, we, we see what happens whenever they do get the freedom that they're so that they do so desperately want. MPJ got a little quieter about that over the years as the winds piled up, you know, and things like that.

[Kyle]

But so did Justin's dear friend Jeremy Grant. You know, like, it's hard out there in the wilderness creating for yourself.

[Justin Barrier]

And I was watching the Nets tonight and we are getting a little taste of what MPJ with freedom looks like. And my man, yes, it's rough. So for me he just needs to, they're going to have to try to find ways for him to create productivity and like when he's active on the glass, he looks amazing. Whenever he's like active as a cutter, getting easy baskets, things like that, that's where I think he needs to lean into to take some pressure off of the. Are the shots going in? Because I do think the shots are going to go in. He's a really talented shooter.

[Kyle]

There's lots of ways to do it. Yeah, I mean we were just, we just laid out like 15 different things that Con Knippel is doing. Like if you do three of those things as Ace Bailey, you're stabilizing your game in a really important way. But I'm glad you brought up MPJ Kyle. Like the visual similarity is also kind of striking just because of his size. He's not quite as big as MPJ is, but the, the potential, he's huge. And the potential for a great contested three point shooter is there. Hopefully in a more of a spot up capacity. Right. Like a kick and hitting tough shots against closeouts. That could be Ace Bailey. He's not hitting those shots right now. I'm, I, I actually think there is something to commend him for in playing this role and at least from the outside, like doesn't seem to be making a terrible stink of any, any of it. Like for a guy who has the ambitions that he does, like this situation could look and feel very differently right now. It feels disappointing because the shots aren't falling and his game feels limited, but it doesn't feel disappointing because he's in a, you know, active mutiny.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I just don't know what Utah expected. Like we knew that he was a guy who would want a starring opportunity and if he is butting up against that, then like that's what you're getting. And what we've seen thus far in the early returns the minutes are minuscule relative to like what other guys are getting. It's like 20 on most nights. Sometimes he's in the teens. And so like he's not getting a full run. It's just like, I don't know what else Utah is doing, if not like allowing him opportunities to be the star, but also like focusing on the role. I think you could do both at once because to Rob's point, about like the size, like he was up there against Nas Reed and like, they look similar size, like Johan Beringer. They're like pretty similar.

[Kyle]

Well, that, that game is the example of how you get him more burn and opportunity. You lose to everyone by 30 like they did to the Timberwolves, and then all of a sudden there's lots of shots for Ace Bailey.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

All right. Who else do you guys want to hit here?

[Kyle]

We have to at least talk about Trey Johnson, right?

[Rob Mahoney]

I forget he's on the court every time I watch the Wizards.

[Justin Barrier]

It's not funny because I used, I said that last season at times when he was at Texas where I'd be like, man, I'm just like. It's a similar kind of thing with Ace at times where it's like Trey is the. A similar kind of talented shot maker. The same way Aces. I would say Trey's probably a little more dynamic than Ace, but yeah, when it's the same kind of thing where if he's not. If he's not making shots or doing that you do, you can forget that he's out here. Granted. I mean, the Wizards also have a lot of talented wings kind of clustered in a, in a, in a little group there.

[Kyle]

They really do. I mean, the one thing that gives me reason for optimism with Trey is that when he does catch the ball, when it swings to him, his only thought is not shoot. Like, he is trying to read for the best scoring opportunity in a way that I think lean. It leans out of shooter and into score in a way that is a little bit more all around. That I think there gives you something to build on. But he's not a playmaker. He's not going to be a rebounder. He's not going to like. He doesn't show really much aptitude for defense right now. Maybe that will change down the line. And so it's like if, if you aren't, if you aren't hitting, it is incredibly limiting to your game. I just hope he gets to that sort of all around scorer level, even if it's in more of an off ball, cutting and moving kind of capacity that gives him something to work with because right now it's. But it, it's nice when the shots fall. It's fine enough. It's not an outright disaster. It just feels a little hollow.

[Rob Mahoney]

He seems bored out there a lot of the times. And so I worry like if his future lies in being an off ball movement guy and those guys are running just like basically marathons in a given game, like he needs to be more active about it because it just seems like he's floating out there a lot of the time.

[Justin Barrier]

That's exactly what I was going to say, is that he's got to just become one of these cardi. Like he's got to become one of these ironman and lean into that because I think that's the most. I think that is the simple trade that he could build his career on and then just stack things on top of that because he's shown little flourishes of getting off the ball. Like he, he, he started to show those things at Texas towards the end of the year. The thing is like he, he would get really frustrated at Texas and just clap for the ball like every time down. I don't know if Trey. I don't know if Rob watched his Texas Longhorns.

[Kyle]

I try not to watch Longhorns basketball as much as possible.

[Justin Barrier]

Well, he would just clap for the ball because on that team, him shooting every single time. There was a decent argument for that with the Wizards. It's kind of like there are. We're starting to see it's a fledgling sort of identity. You know, it's still a ways away. But yeah, to me that absolutely is what he should be doing, is leaning into that lifestyle and not be like, okay, I'll eventually be like a pick and roll guy. It's like, no, I think the thing that you could really trade on is, is that because he's not a crazy, he's not a crazy bendy athlete. He's not a crazy. Get into the lane and the passing and all that stuff. I just, I just, I would lean toward. More towards that if I were him.

[Kyle]

I love that concept of like an endurance specialist. Like there really is a lane for that kind of skill set if you are willing to put in the work to do it. Historically, lots of guys think they're about that particular life and then go work out with Steph one time and throw up in a trash can. So we'll, we'll see what Trey wants to do with his career. And if ultimately that's a path that's interesting to him.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. It's hard for him right now to clap for the ball because Cam Whitmore is too busy going one on four every single time out there.

[Kyle]

He's hilarious to watch. But it does feel like Cam Whitmore has been told, like, if you get a rebound, you can do whatever the fuck you want with it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, who told him that?

[Kyle]

I don't know.

[Rob Mahoney]

Somebody did.

[Justin Barrier]

When it came out that Cam Whitmore had been playing with like, noise canceling earbuds or something.

[Kyle]

Believe it. Cam Whitmore has pioneered technology that allows him to wear an AirPod during a game.

[Justin Barrier]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Why don't we flip now to the defensive specialists, Colin Murray Boyles. Talk about him, right? He jumps off the page in some of these games lately.

[Justin Barrier]

Sounded like you had like wine in your mouth when you go call him.

[Rob Mahoney]

Murray Burrows.

[Justin Barrier]

Thank you, sir. Rob, what do you got to say about Colin Murray Boyles? I'm curious. I've said a lot.

[Kyle]

You go, I'm delighted. Frankly. I'm glad to see him out there. You know, like, I. For everything. That is starting to turn right for the Raptors, and I think they're a team that's starting to figure it out. I. I think their offense is coalescing a little better than their defenses at this particular point in time.

[Rob Mahoney]

Minus us calling Brandon Ingram a loser, basically.

[Kyle]

I'm not. I'm. I remain not a fan. I'm sorry, I don't know what to tell you, but I really love what Colin Murray Boyles does defensively. The activity, like the hands. Again, it's just that you can tell when these guys are plugged into the instincts of how to play on one side of the ball or the other. And he just gets it. Like, he just has a natural template for how to affect the ball and affect possessions in a way that not a lot of guys do. Certainly not a lot of young players do.

[Justin Barrier]

Someone posed the question to me this weekend that who is. Who is the Raptors highest basketball IQ player?

[Kyle]

Garrett Temple.

[Rob Mahoney]

Temple.

[Justin Barrier]

Look at us. Look at us among the guys who are in the rotation. I think it might be Colin Murray Boyles. I really do. Granted, I was very high on his basketball IQ in general.

[Kyle]

Scotty's been really good. He's had a really good season overall, I would say. And. And Scotty coming back, the shots coming back for sure. And yes, if we're talking about, like defense and offense cohesively, there are times where Scotty Barnes is a great defender and there are times where he's like a little absent. And bridging the gap is a huge thing for him.

[Justin Barrier]

Now, wait, don't take what I'm. I'm saying. I'm not saying it's a team of dummies. I'm saying I'm. This is literally what you just said. I'm saying. I'm saying CMB is also. The detonator's just not taken off. I thought it was a good name. Can we just.

[Rob Mahoney]

Can you guys tried to pilot this last year?

[Justin Barrier]

Judge? Sure. I mean, can you all be the court here and be honest? Can you be a friend to me and be honest? I mean, is it. Is it bad because he just. He.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's not catchy.

[Kyle]

It's not bad. It just doesn't work.

[Justin Barrier]

It works because he blows shit up. That was my argument. Basic argument. He blows. Plays up. He's. He's a very. You know.

[Rob Mahoney]

See, what you're trying to do is you're trying to pilot a nickname but also introduce a concept. You. The concept has to exist, and you need to pyramid on that with a nice catchy punt.

[Kyle]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, for instance, I suggested that his nickname should be Chonkasaurus because he's a chunky boy.

[Kyle]

That's just.

[Justin Barrier]

You should jump off a bridge.

[Rob Mahoney]

If you look at him, he's. He's a chonker, which is fine. Differently. And so visually, he is not a chunky guy. Established.

[Justin Barrier]

Hold on a minute. Hold on a minute. I say the detonator with a clear. Which to me, I think that sounds like an action movie. And I'm like, here's why Justin hits me back with yours. Doesn't work. How about the chunk of swords?

[Kyle]

It's awful.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, we call this professional athlete kind of fat.

[Kyle]

One of the worst things you've ever done. Justin, introduce this nickname.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's a stout boy.

[Kyle]

Look, he is stout in a way, but I wouldn't call him chunky.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's thick.

[Justin Barrier]

What is this chunky? Is it chunky? I've never even heard people say chunky. What do you mean?

[Rob Mahoney]

It's like a cutesy version of chunky. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kyle]

Justin is nothing if not cutesy.

[Justin Barrier]

You all went to better schools than me. I don't. This is the.

[Kyle]

They weren't teaching that one in the schools, I can assure you.

[Rob Mahoney]

But it's also twofold, because not only the body type that we've established here, but also, like, he's the raptor.

[Kyle]

Oh, well, yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I was going raptor. Yeah.

[Kyle]

Well, I don't think any of this.

[Rob Mahoney]

Be was like, Backing down someone. Like, he smelt chum in the water, went right after him and just kind of like ripped it from him. And I know beads in a different state of his career, he's barely moving at this point, but like, like he's.

[Justin Barrier]

Going after it, man, he demoralizes people. I mean, when he, when he gets his hand on the ball, it is his. I mean, he's like one of those. He's got that. I mean, Kawhi is the master, obviously the highest version of that, but it's just. He's got those just vice hands. Some of those dudes have that when they get, when they get in. In a scrum for the ball, it's like Karl Mary Bill is probably coming out with it and he's a really good passer. He's just a little undersized, like figuring out how to score and things like that. But man, is brutal. It's tough.

[Kyle]

It's going to be like he's got to find something in the field, right? Like just digging up random points from being in the flow of things. But it's clear he's not like quite as plugged into the rhythms of the game on that and that's okay. Like he can. He'll make those good passes you're talking about. He will make good effort plays. It's just going to be a more natural defensive game for him. And the good news is he feels like one of those sort of like Rosetta Stone. I can kind of guard anybody sort of defenders. Like anyone you need me to over the course of this possession, I can handle it. And that's a really exciting place for a young player to be.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, he was so good defensively that they left him out there for crunch time against the Sixers. But the flip side of that is they had to go offensive defense because his offense, he's punting at this point. And that's the problem with the Raptors overall. There isn't like a natural fit for him to be that small ball like draymond type of 5 because the shooting just isn't there to support it. Like the Raptors offense has been good thus far, we should mention. But like, I do think there is a trade off there. When you start like changing up, like sort of the rotation, who goes where, then it could fall apart pretty easily. So we'll see. Anybody else you guys want to hear? Any sleepers? Any just like notes on other first round guys?

[Kyle]

I mean, the Nets drafted five rookies and then barely play any of them.

[Rob Mahoney]

They're not Even on the big league club, most of them very least they're going back and forth just living in.

[Kyle]

Long island at this point. I, I don't get it. I don't like is, are the Zaire Williams minutes that sacred? Like, will your franchise fall apart if you don't play Jalen Wilson? Like, is that a thing that you're worried about?

[Justin Barrier]

If you have a certain non winning agenda, I could see how they would be sacred.

[Kyle]

But wouldn't the non winning agenda also be served by like force feeding Drake Powell? Whatever it is, he needs to grow up and be a big strong NBA pro.

[Justin Barrier]

Can't risk him being good. We gotta keep that there.

[Kyle]

God forbid.

[Rob Mahoney]

Did play 23 minutes tonight, so.

[Kyle]

Okay, that's good. That's a start.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's getting some run. My, my defense of the Nets was always like, what were they gonna do with this season anyway? But you're right, like for that reason, why aren't these guys just playing against NBA competition?

[Kyle]

They don't even have Cam Thomas anymore. Like any, any baked in excuse to not play the rookies is gone.

[Rob Mahoney]

Jaeger was averaging going into tonight's game. One shot inside, one shot a game inside the arc, which is insane. I just, it's a weird team.

[Kyle]

There's also a lot of Nick Claxton happening. Like there's a lot of like we're just going to trust Nick Claxton to make plays and bring the ball up and as. Look, I, I understand why every big in the world wants to do that stuff. It's fun to do it, but where is it taking you when you're actually invested in the like supposed development of someone like gay Gord Yeoman, who is one of the ball handlers, but like barely one of the ball handlers.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

No Clowney still like three years away.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. And still only like 20 years old. Yeah.

[Kyle]

I actually kind of like the Noah Clowney minutes. You know what? I'm.

[Rob Mahoney]

I've always liked them.

[Kyle]

I'm gently encouraged by what Noah Clowney has shown us.

[Justin Barrier]

Jaeger. Jaeger is a super, super, super talented like, like creator and decision maker. It's just the scoring pressure isn't there. And that's the sad thing you see sometimes with some of these guys who can really, really pass it is that if you can't create that tension, we just, we never, we never get to see it. But I. His shot, the optics of it looks fine. Like, you know, I mean, I could see him getting. It's not broken to the point where, you know, I think he can be just absolutely ignored. I don't know, man. It's like, what do you do with a great decision maker on a team that won't give him the ball and doesn't have any kind of identity? It's just. It's being wasted. So it's hard to make any sense of the Nets and maybe they want it that way. I don't know.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I guess if, if he, if. If a lottery pick misses a bunch of threes and there's no one there to hear it, like, does it really make a sound? I don't know.

[Kyle]

One of life's great questions, Justin.

[Justin Barrier]

I was gonna say Will Richard's the only other one that I think is, you know, if Will Richard is the kid in class who, you know, the teacher is like, hey, this kid is an example, like just trying to get the other. The other students to work harder. You know, it's just like, man, he's just got a lot of energy out there. I mean, in transition, he's just kind of talking about carving it. Granted, he's in a way different situation than. Than Ace, but just finding a small thing and buying in. And really, you know, granted that he's a guy who. Older rookie, came in, played, you know, came off national championship at Florida. He's just doing the things and making threes. Making threes and running in transition. And I was going to say, who do you all think that that was that aimed at? Moody or was that aimed at? But Jimsky, who do you think that mandate from or that warning from? Kerr?

[Kyle]

Oh, I didn't see this warning.

[Justin Barrier]

Well, he basically used Richard as a, as sort of a fall in line kind of a thing because no one's minutes are safe because Richard's coming for your ass, basically.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I don't know, Ben Cruz, our producer, says it was Bijemski, which makes sense because Kerr is always throwing him under the bus.

[Kyle]

It's just a constant tension point within the warriors of like, what is going on between Steve Kerr and Brandon Pajimsky. You can see it on the court in terms of the way he's used and deployed. Like, it never tracks. But Will Richard is such a Steve Kerr player and like such a natural fit for this team. And it is, it's frankly amazing that they were able to kind of dig him up and throw him in here. And it's worked out so perfectly. And he, I think the effort thing is what stands out. And that's not just a Pajemski issue. Like, there is a kind of more pervasive warriors thing happening where these guys are, like, maybe sleepwalking a little bit more than they should, maybe resting on some of the laurels of knowing how talented and good they are and not taking every possession with the intensity and the urgency that it may require even in the regular season. Will Richard does not have that problem. So I understand Steve Kerr throwing him on the poster and pointing him out as the best child in class.

[Rob Mahoney]

Fun class. I'm excited to keep tracking these guys. We'll do this again probably in another month or two just to check in. That's it for. For these chunky boys here.

[Kyle]

See, you can call us that.

[Justin Barrier]

That's chunky.

[Rob Mahoney]

Chunky's just. It's a term. The kids are saying. Chunky.

[Kyle]

The kids are not saying it.

[Rob Mahoney]

The kids are saying it.

[Justin Barrier]

When was the last time you were around the kids, Justin?

[Rob Mahoney]

Answering.

[Kyle]

Don't answer that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Answering that as your lawyer.

[Justin Barrier]

That is not a tape recorder. Yeah. When was the last time?

[Rob Mahoney]

That's it for us, Officers Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. We'll be back on Wednesday. Talk to you then. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.