Say One Nice Thing About the West’s Bottom Six | Group Chat

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ringer NBA Show - "Say One Nice Thing About the West’s Bottom Six | Group Chat"

Release Date: March 27, 2025

In this engaging episode of Group Chat from The Ringer NBA Show, hosts Justin Barrier and Rob Mahoney delve deep into the current state of the NBA’s Western Conference, focusing on its struggling teams. The discussion spans team dynamics, player performances, and broader league narratives, offering listeners comprehensive insights into why certain franchises are underperforming and identifying silver linings amidst the challenges.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

The episode kicks off with Justin Barrier humorously acknowledging the pervasive media clash between Brian Windhorst and Stephen A. Smith, emphasizing their pro-Windhorst stance. Maurice Host introduces the theme of the podcast: finding positive aspects within the Western Conference’s bottom-tier teams.

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2. Media Clash: Brian Windhorst vs. Stephen A.

Justin expresses frustration over the constant focus on the media feud between Windhorst and Smith, stating, “I don't know how much we want to talk about the Stephen A. LeBron clash because it is everywhere at this point” ([01:37]). Rob Mahoney reinforces their support for Windhorst, highlighting his professionalism amidst the turmoil:

“Brian is legitimately one of the best in this business to do it. So shout out to him.” ([02:05])

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3. Analysis of the West’s Bottom Six Teams

a. Phoenix Suns

The Suns are examined as a team grappling with internal dynamics and performance issues. Justin criticizes the media’s distraction from basketball by saying, “I never want to hear another nerd say that the NBA ratings are down because of the NBA’s weird spot” ([03:10]). Rob highlights recent improvements under coach Mike Boonholzer, noting the infusion of new energy from players like Colin Gillespie and Ryan Dunn:

“The Suns have finally found a little bit of life and energy in his rotation that the Suns have been lacking all season.” ([09:10])

b. Dallas Mavericks

Justin and Rob discuss the Mavericks’ struggles, particularly post-trade dynamics and player performances. Najee Marshall’s standout game against the Knicks is a focal point: “He put 38 goddamn points against the New York Knicks” ([20:00]). Justin laments the loss of Luka Doncic, emphasizing the team’s desperate need for cohesive role players:

“Najee Marshall has been so good specifically filling the gaps for those stars.” ([21:13])

c. San Antonio Spurs

The Spurs receive attention for their veteran presence and emerging talents. Justin praises Chris Paul for his endurance and leadership at 39 years old:

“Chris Paul is up to… 71 games played.” ([53:25])
They also discuss Victor Wembanyama’s rebounding prowess, noting his exceptional performance for a player his size:
“Walker Kessler is the closest thing that Utah has to a real building block.” ([73:39])

d. Portland Trail Blazers

The conversation shifts to the Blazers, where Justin highlights Tomani Kamara’s defensive excellence:

“He deserves not only consideration. I think it's like criminal if he did not make at least second team.” ([38:05])
Rob agrees, emphasizing Kamara’s impact and versatility:
“His defense is overwhelmingly so, and what he's missing is minimal.” ([38:13])

e. New Orleans Pelicans

Justin applauds Mani Kamara for his defensive capabilities and evolving offensive game:

“He is one of the most thrilling players to watch on the floor.” ([43:37])
Rob notes the Pelicans' strategic moves to maximize Kamara’s skill set, fostering a more dynamic team structure.

f. Utah Jazz

The Utah Jazz are analyzed for their defensive strategies and player development. Walker Kessler’s shot-blocking is a standout topic:

“He is a legitimate all-defense candidate. He's one of the best rim protectors in basketball.” ([71:52])
Justin expresses concern over Kessler’s foray into three-point shooting, questioning its sustainability:
“Walker Kessler... taking a bunch of threes.” ([73:39])

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4. Notable Player Discussions

Kevin Durant

A significant portion is dedicated to Kevin Durant, debating his legacy and future performance. Justin remarks on Durant’s efficiency and potential longevity:

“He's shooting 43% from 3 on the most attempts from 3 he’s had in his entire career.” ([15:05])
Rob echoes the sentiment, commending Durant's scoring prowess and defensive impact:
“He’s an awesome scorer. His efficiency is off the charts.” ([16:20])

Najee Marshall

Najee Marshall’s versatility and pivotal performances for the Mavericks are lauded. Justin emphasizes his ball-handling and mid-range scoring ability, while Rob appreciates Marshall’s facilitating efforts off the bench:

“He’s a willing passer, not a visionary one.” ([23:19])

Walker Kessler

Walker Kessler’s defensive dominance is a highlight, with both hosts acknowledging his rebounding and shot-blocking skills. Justin underscores his historic rebounding season for his size:

“With one notable exception, Zach Edey... long boys are back rebounding like never before.” ([55:29])
Rob praises Kessler’s presence in the paint and his role as a defensive cornerstone for Utah:
“Walker Kessler is an awesome presence in the paint to have.” ([56:21])

Chris Paul

Chris Paul’s durability and leadership for the Spurs are celebrated. Justin expresses amazement at Paul's ability to stay healthy and productive at 39:

“He is going to be 40 in May.” ([58:29])
Rob highlights Paul’s impact on team cohesion and offensive organization:
“Chris Paul is a huge part of the reason why... they can run a coherent NBA offense.” ([59:10])

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5. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, Justin and Rob reflect on the complexities of the Western Conference’s bottom teams. Justin humorously notes the extensive coverage they’ve provided, while Rob emphasizes the hopeful signs amidst the struggles. They express optimism for players like Tomani Kamara and Walker Kessler to gain the recognition they deserve, and the potential for teams like the Spurs and Pelicans to build around their talented rosters.

Notable Quote:

“This is one of the biggest parts of his case because he doesn't do a lot of the flashy things that typically get you attention when you're a defender... He should make it that the very least second team. But I want to go through some of the names I have down here.” – Justin Barrier ([39:31])

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Key Takeaways:

• Phoenix Suns are finding new energy through strategic player rotations but still face internal challenges.
• Dallas Mavericks struggle post-Luka trade but show promise with role players like Najee Marshall.
• San Antonio Spurs benefit from veteran leadership, particularly from Chris Paul, and emerging talents.
• Portland Trail Blazers have defensive standouts like Tomani Kamara, though offensive contributions remain inconsistent.
• New Orleans Pelicans are building around Mani Kamara’s defensive prowess and versatile playmaking.
• Utah Jazz excel defensively with players like Walker Kessler but face questions about team strategy and player utilization.

The episode successfully provides a nuanced analysis of the NBA’s struggling Western teams, highlighting both their flaws and the potential bright spots that could guide their future success.

Transcript

[Justin Barrier]

This episode is brought to you by patron. 100% additive free tequila. When it comes to ingredients, Patron doesn't need to play games. That's why their tequila is crafted with 100% Weber Blue Agave water and thyme. No sweeteners, no added extracts, no secrets, just 100% additive free tequila. Visit patron tequila.com to learn more. The perfect way to enjoy Patron is responsibly Copyright 2025, imported by the Patron Spirits Company Coral Gables, Florida. Tequila 40% Alcoh by volume. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Basketball fans know that a great assist can change the game. And there's no greater assist than one from State Farm. State Farm is here to help you navigate the right coverage for your home car and more. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. State Farm Bloomington, IL coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Barrier. No big waz today, but we do have back in action. Brian Windhorst, actual best friend. It's Rob Mahoney. What's up buddy?

[Rob Mahoney]

If only I were so lucky. Brian Windhorst, intrepid reporter, genuine good guy. Would love to be his best friend. Brian, if you're out there, get at me. But you know that's still aspirational at this point. For now, I think I'm gonna have to settle for you being my best friend. Justin was being my co best friend. This is. This is who we are to each other.

[Justin Barrier]

I just gotta say up top. I don't know how much we want to talk about the Stephen A. LeBron clash because it is everywhere at this point, which I find just perplexing for a variety of reasons. But we are pro Windhorst on this podcast.

[Rob Mahoney]

We need to doubt in the arm.

[Justin Barrier]

Bands or something just to show that we stand with Brian when it comes to this. Because just a sideswipe and one of the best to do it. The best ever do it I thought was pretty ridiculous. So Brian.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes, especially under the circumstances of all of all the media people to take aim at at this point in time. The people who are going around doing multi platform, multi channel victory tours based on insulting LeBron's son and then having a confrontation with him. Fair game. I think that's on the table. Take your shots, LeBron. By all means, go on Pat McAfee, say your shit. How Brian went horse got looped up in this I don't really understand. But here we are. You know, I think it's important that we say it. If no one else does. Justin, you know, Brian is legitimately one of the best in this business to do it. So shout out to him. No shout out to LeBron, certainly no shout out to Pat McAfee, and no shout out whatsoever to Stephen A. Smith.

[Justin Barrier]

It really gets me thinking, you know, like, should we be attacking the sons, the children of current NBA superstars? Do you think that's, like, a good lane for us? Because it seems like a very profitable one.

[Rob Mahoney]

First of all, you've already done this many times. Many times. Am I going crazy off the top of my head? I'm remembering you and DeMar DeRozan's daughter and having takes about her. I knew you were interfering in NBA games. I remember you having some Deuce takes, maybe even some curry children takes at the press conferences.

[Justin Barrier]

Okay, you're right there. There is a pretty long track record.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm just saying, like, you. You've been out in these streets. If anything, maybe you should be mad at Stephen A. For trying to bite your bit.

[Justin Barrier]

That's right. I should be. I. I gotta say, I see a deuce video every, like, other day at this point. You need to get the camera away from that child. He's too overexposed at this point. But, yeah, no, I. The whole thing has just been so crazy to me. I think the one takeaway I have from this, not actually about, like, who's right or. Or anything like that, is like, I never want to hear another nerd say that. The reason why the NBA ratings are down, that the NBA is maybe, like, in a weird spot going forward because, oh, maybe social media, all this other stuff. I want to hear anything about the product being why people aren't watching because we have now gone through, what, a week plus maybe even two weeks of the Stephen A. LeBron clash, where that is the only thing anybody cares about. So it's not about the basketball. We watch the basketball. And yes, we want to talk about the improvements, what we could do differently because we will be investing in it. But people don't watch the NBA often, the casual fans, for the actual basketball. They do for the tension, for the drama of it all. And so just. Just no more like, oh, we need to change too many three pointers. All this other stuff. It's not that. Just let me tell you.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, there's. I mean, there's also the LeBron aspect of that. Who has been an advocate for. Let's talk about the game. Let's talk about the game. Let's talk about the game. Also, let me go on espn and air my grievances, which he is only human. Fair enough. But we are trying to have it always, all the time. And I'm with you that ultimately you cannot extricate the game and the tension that you're talking about from the various beeves that are happening all around the league at any given point in time. Like, it is. It is part of the product, it has been part of the blood and like the life of the sport for so long. I don't know why we would try to get rid of that. I think there's a way we can talk around it and incorporate all these things together. The conversation about LeBron, the conversation about tension, like, obviously you don't want a media member and a player beefing in quite this way all the time. But as far as the tension on the court, I think it's mostly aided by a little animosity in the air.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. It also struck me just like, how late age LeBron is. I know we talk all the time about how he's doing things beyond his years. He's 40. We talk about that probably every couple of weeks at this point. But it did really strike me how just personality wise, he's definitely aged into middle age. Because the two things that I think most about when it comes to, like, getting toward middle age is one is like losing all sense of, like, when you're around people, like, spatial awareness, like you're just bumping into people and people are just like, you know, nudging you when they don't think about it, maybe because they have kids and so they're just not as aware of, like, where you are. But I'm constantly with, like, middle aged people getting into little tiffs over that, but also just like being grouchy about absolutely everything. And it just seemed like LeBron, for whatever reason, got onto McAfee, decided to do an hour and just like shit on everything. Like, not just didn't seem really happy about the product, didn't seem really happy about the way he's being discussed on and on and on. It just. It was like a really weird look for him. But I guess as middle aged people, we should be at least receptive of where he is.

[Rob Mahoney]

Absolutely. I mean, did you find anything deeply recognizable in those kinds of that kind of grousing? Like, it must be comforting on some level to know, Justin, that even if you were blessed with extraordinary basketball abilities, that you were the best player of a generation and maybe of all time, that you have incredible privilege and wealth and power and have an unimpeachable place in the history of the game that ultimately you would still be a little grouchy sometimes.

[Justin Barrier]

I saw myself in LeBron for the very first time. I'll say that he did seem more like approachable. Like he was swearing all the time. And I know even on this podcast, whenever, like, I feel like I'm being most genuine, I swear a lot. And so I don't know. Just on the one hand, it was very weird. And definitely outside of what we've seen. LeBron like, very manicured. Like, I have all the PR people around me who has completely shaped my image since the Miami debacle, on the other hand, thought he was pretty honest, thought it was pretty interesting. I never want to hear anything else about him and Stephen A. But if he wants to be more honest about things, I'm happy for him.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm cool with that. Yeah, the LeBron dad energy, I think translated nicely into the dad hanging around other dads and finally saying the thing that's actually on their mind. Yeah, we could use a little bit of that. And not just there, but I think across the world right now.

[Justin Barrier]

Or maybe you in a tank top. I don't know if you want to.

[Rob Mahoney]

Pivot to that as your brand. Yeah, that's not. That's not going to be it for me. I'm sorry.

[Justin Barrier]

Okay. Maybe Wise can. Can feel that he does have the guns, I think, to fill that up.

[Rob Mahoney]

A tank. Sometimes he might have even podcasted in a tank at some point in the group chat history.

[Justin Barrier]

He's a Tank guy. But we are going to. We do watch the NBA and so we are going to go through not only just like some of the basketball that's happening there, we're going to go through some of the worst basketball that's been happening of late because we are doing the second half of our two part podcast where we say, or at least try to say nice things about the worst teams in the NBA. The absolute shit of the NBA. We are going to put a rose, put a bloom on all that. We did the east last week. We're going to do the west this week. A little bit more difficult because technically the Suns and the Mavs are tied for 10th. The Suns, I believe, get the tiebreakers at this point, but we'll see going for it. But as we're recording this on Thursday afternoon, third tight. So we're going to do both of them because wasn't here. So I feel like we could let our freak flag fly.

[Rob Mahoney]

Absolutely. Along those lines, in addition to being a Tank guy, Our guy was under the weather right now. We hope he gets better soon. Do you think was got a little case of the Utah Jazz flu?

[Justin Barrier]

Do you think he saw.

[Rob Mahoney]

He saw the slate and was like, you know what? I'm not ready for these Jazz takes.

[Justin Barrier]

I think it's not a coincidence that he skipped this pod. Yes. I think he saw what was on the dock and he was like, maybe this is one I could sit out.

[Rob Mahoney]

But look, the NBA season is full of these borderline moments, right? You got. You got a little nagging injury, you got a little illness. We need was for the stretch run ultimately. And so if he needs to nurse up with whatever he's got going on, I fully saluted and support him.

[Justin Barrier]

Okay. One of those teams that is certainly nursing, I wouldn't even say necessarily injury wise, but maybe just pride wise would be the Phoenix Suns. We have to start with them at number 10. Do you want to go first? I think this is a difficult one, especially considering after getting absolutely lambasted by the Celtics last night without Jason Tatum.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I found them to be the most difficult. We've talked all throughout the season about how bad the vibes have been. They've changed dramatically lately preceding this Celtics game. Finally had some rhythm, finally had a little bit going for them. And I think that's in part because of one big positive thing that's been happening lately, which is I think that Mike Boonholzer has finally found a little bit of life and energy in his rotation that the Suns have been lacking all season. Colin Gillespie in the starting lineup. Ryan Dunn, also Godaro. Cody Martin's been a nice boost for this team in that regard. Like, they've actually found a little bit of juice and they have the creation, they have the scores. Like we know that. The question has always been around the edges of that, what do the lineups look like? Are those guys doing the role player things? And I think the Suns are finally doing some of that stuff in a way that is certainly more pleasant to watch than it was earlier this year.

[Justin Barrier]

How much of that are the new guys coming in, the Gillespies, the Duns, who have the energy? And how much is it the old guys not playing, namely Bradley Beal?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, certainly Yousef Nurkic, getting him up out of there. And. And frankly, Mason Plumlee, who just like was not up to snuff as a regular NBA player. And so getting him out of the rotation, trading Nurkic, those things are big. I'm at this point, I find myself being a bit of a Beal apologist. I Think he's been put in a tough spot in a role that doesn't particularly suit him in Phoenix ultimately, but has been a pretty good player having an okay season. He just isn't, as you allude to, the kind of player that they need, the kind of role player, the kind of effort defender, the kind of, you know, back cutter and offensive rebounder. Like, they need guys to do the shit that Booker and KD aren't as good at or just not as inclined to do. And Bradley Beal is not that. And so, yeah, changing over the nature of the rotation and getting some fresh blood in there and I'll even say to kill one of my darlings in the process. Like Tyus Jones, I think was a little bit too measured and too calm and too like, too, too overall, like, orderly in his style of play for what this team needs, which is someone who's going to get into people defensively who's going to create a little bit of chaos out there. And Ty's Jones is not a chaos agent. So bring him off the bench, change things up a little bit, and ultimately you start to see a Suns team that finally has a little bit of life in it.

[Justin Barrier]

They needed the chaotic energy of Colin Gillespie. Just a madman out there.

[Rob Mahoney]

I literally never would have predicted it. The fact that Colin Gillespie has stepped in who, preceding his son's tenure, I would say is most known as an NBA player for once looking at Jeff Green on the bench and calling him dad during a mic'd up moment now is not just a starter, but like an actual impact player in a lot of these games for Phoenix. It's completely wild to see we've got.

[Justin Barrier]

Some real good, like, jabs from the mic'd up moments of late. Not only that one, which I, I love, but also the Trend in Watford1 the you're having a down year, which we talked about on Monday's podcast, but like, that was fucking precise. I'll say that, like, because Halliburton was like trying to come back. Well, I, I, it was earlier in the season, I guess, and I guess in totality he is having a down year in comparison.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think he's like, he's like three months late on his group chat pods. Turn to Watford is like he needs to catch up on the times in which I would say Tyrese Halliburton has not been disappointing for quite some time. Nor have the Pacers.

[Justin Barrier]

It was just like a very specific like, cut, you know. And I think it really got to Halliburton, which is why he was so mad and trying to argue with a bench player for the Nets in the same way. You'll often find me arguing with people on Twitter just about the dumbest fucking things.

[Rob Mahoney]

So you, in this case, you are Tyrese Halliburton?

[Justin Barrier]

I think so, yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, I just wanted to clear it out. I mean, you've said a lot of incendiary things about Tyrese Halliburton on this podcast, and otherwise. I just wanted to clear the air a little bit.

[Justin Barrier]

Maybe it's because I see myself in him, you know.

[Rob Mahoney]

Wow. We're ultimately most frustrated with ourselves.

[Justin Barrier]

That's very true. The Gillespie fine, though, is so fascinating. Obviously, he was drafted by by the Nuggets and he went to the Suns because the Nuggets just didn't have a place to play him. The Suns have been quietly pretty good at getting some of these guys at the deep end of the rotation and finding some gems. I mean, Dunn's another one. I've always really liked his game. The shooting has kind of come and gone. I do think he's going to have to shoot in order to be the type of player that we thought he could be earlier in the season. But not only Gillespie, but, like Ty Jerome, I believe, started with the Suns, and he's gone on to a couple other teams, sure. But also ultimately found himself to Mani Kamara, a guy that we will certainly be talking about later. Podcast. Good Lord. Do they need that guy? I think every team needs that guy, but I think the Suns in particular need that exact player. So unfortunately, the Suns have a good eye for talent. They just don't tend to keep these guys. And if anything, they've been trading these guys in order to bring back worse veteran players who just haven't been as helpful.

[Rob Mahoney]

And some of that's because of the financial constraints they've been in. They kind of have no choice but to search the bargain bins and search the second round and the undrafted ranks and find some good, quality rotation players. Basically out of nowhere, you don't want to put yourself in that position, but if you're going to do it, at least they're turning out some reasonable NBA talent. I think the gap between what is reasonable and what is successful is why we're talking about the Suns now, as opposed to talking about them as like an actual playoff contender, which they may kind of worm their way in by default. If, you know, Dallas, for example, drops off a little bit, there's. There's room for them here. But their season is disappointing for a reason. I think we're finding the silver linings in it, but even those silver linings have their limitations.

[Justin Barrier]

So one of those silver linings, or at least the one that I kind of want to zero in on here, is just Kevin Durant. Yeah, just, I was just watching him pull up from mid range last night and it's just like, how many more years can this guy actually do this? Because obviously LeBron has gotten to the 40 age plateau here or benchmark here, I have to wonder if KD is on that course. And because it seems like he cares most about his own legacy, or at least like him maximizing his own individual potential, maybe being so horse blinded to that that he actually forgets the fact that he needs to have like good teammates and maybe make a little bit better decisions with the guys that he surrounds himself with. But man, third best effective field goal percentage of his career, 27, 6 and 4. He's having another incredible year. We talked about going into the season that the Suns need to take more three pointers, need to be less of a bagman and be a little bit more practical, pragmatic and efficient. And like he's done that 43% from 3 on the most attempts from 3 he's had in his entire career. So he's been just as good as he's ever been. And I start to think to myself, like, man, is his next contract going to go into his 40s? I know the over 38 rule will cap him, but like, I think he could play like four or five more years doing this.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, he could play a long time. I mean, he's still an impact defender if you give him any reason to put in the work on that end and to rotate effectively. If the Suns had anything more going as a team in that regard, I think we'd be talking about him in a different light. He's just an awesome scorer. And we'll. Look, we have to take this opportunity to talk positively about Kevin Durant. While was isn't here because this is how these conversations tend to go, but ultimately, look, zoom out. There are two other guys in the entire league who are scoring as much and as efficiently as Kevin Durant. And those two guys are driving the MVP conversation. That's the class of score and creator that Kevin Durant is still in. Even as the Suns have all these problems, their offense is not really the issue. They still have some fourth quarter troubles. They still have some turnover issues now and again. Like they're still trying to find how to create some sense of balance and kind of like A natural logistical drive out of what they have, which is not a traditional offense without traditional point guards for the most part. Yet Kevin Durant is not the reason those things are stalling out. He's if anything the reason those possessions are getting saved and bailed out at the buzzer or bailed out in tough one on one situations. And even while doing that, he's putting up this crazy efficiency that you mentioned.

[Justin Barrier]

He's got to be what, six? Second team, all NBA or at least in line. I haven't really done it, not even like the back of the envelope in a little while here. The one thing is he is going to come right up against the game played mark. He's at 60 right now with nine to play. So he really has nine games in order to play five. And you wonder if things just hit a complete disaster zone that maybe they'll shut him down toward the end. Seems unlikely. I think he'll get there, but definitely in the mix for if not second team and certainly third. If you could just get past the fact that the Suns are complete catastrophe and have been by far the biggest disappointment in the NBA this season. But yeah, no, I just, I just keep thinking about like his legacy and what he can mean there. I do think the one thing that like I can't not see at this point is the fact that like his legs are so life that I do worry for his health long term more than I probably should. Maybe this is like latent, like him not being able to do a one bench press at the rookie combine two decades ago. But you know, this is a guy with major leg injuries, two of them in his career at this point. And just seeing the way his like legs kind of like bend almost like chickens, I'm like, man, I really just hope the wrong thing doesn't happen to him because I think he's the type of guy who would want to just stick in the league for like as long as humanly possible. We see these coaches like Alvin Gentry, Doc Rivers who just stay in the league in part because I think they just like hanging out in NBA arenas. Like I think KD beyond his playing career will probably just be around in a way because he's just, he's a real Hooper, you know, this is what he does.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like he doesn't want to go do anything else. He doesn't want to become a coach, doesn't want to work in a front office. The dude wants to fucking ball. And to what we were talking about earlier, I think his skill set and his size give him an opportunity and like a Runway to do that for a pretty long time. Like he's always going to be a guy you could park on the perimeter and spot up and space the floor at a really high level and with a really high threat to like any opposing defense. What's going to change over time is his ability to manufacture those shots one on one, to run, pick and roll, to be going downhill in any meaningful way. And of course kind of what he's going to be defensively. But he's already so big and so long, I think there will be a place for him as long as his body holds up. So yeah, that is the variable, the lower body thing is always a concern with anyone his size, especially when it's not just his size that's so valuable, it's his ability to shift directions and change and pull up with balance. Having all those things as you move into your 40s is just unprecedented really in the NBA. Even with someone like LeBron who just doesn't quite play like Kevin Durant does.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, well, speaking of guys who can pull up in the mid range and get whatever shot that they want, I think for the Dallas Mavericks we need to talk about one Najee Marshall, who put 38 goddamn points against the New York Knickerbockers. One assists. And I have to say if you watch the highlight reel that I found on YouTube, the most popular one out there of his performance that night, the sizzle reel starts with his one assist, which is literally just him on beyond the arc, passing to another guy at the top of the arc and that guy immediately hitting a shot practically unguarded. And that was his one assist from the night. Because this guy, who I think we all thought might be more of in the three and the prototypical mold, but at least that was what he was to a certain extent with the New Orleans Pelicans, isn't hitting shots, isn't hitting three pointers. If anything, he's dribbling his way into the mid range and shooting over the top. He's actually like the ball handling skills way more advanced than I ever expected and maybe even the Dallas Mavericks expected because they didn't expect him to be taking this many shots in an NBA game. But I have to say, like on the one hand, probably needs to get the shot going in order to fit the role alongside some of the creators, the Kyries, the ads that you need. But the fact that he has his other element into his game has been a pretty nice little find here as things are are going to shit in Dallas left and right, they've done a.

[Rob Mahoney]

Pretty good job as a collective front office of finding guys like Najee Marshall, like Dante Exum, like Derrick Jones Jr. Like, they have dug good role players off of other teams and put them in slightly adjacent roles and all of a sudden you see different parts of their game really, really sing. I did not know Najee Marshall had this mid range capability. I did not know. He just apparently has one of the best floaters of anybody in the NBA. It's just a thing that he does on a regular basis now. And I, I think what's. So what's such a bummer about the Luca situation overall and the Kyrie injury and the Anthony Davis injury is that Najee Marshall has been so good specifically filling the gaps for those stars. When one guy has been out of the lineup, usually because of injury, but ideally, in a perfect world, Dallas would have two of those stars and he would be a guy coming in off the bench or filling out the starting lineup, who then, while Kyrie sits or AD sits or Luca sits, is giving you some of that production he's proven himself to be capable of. So it's just like a complete opportunity lost in so many ways for the peak Najee Marshall experience, which is a type of role player Dallas has not really had enough of and desperately needs and the circumstances that would have really allowed him to thrive. I. I feel for him. I feel for the team. Like this is one of those things where some of the things went right and yet you shot yourself in the foot in such a colossal way by trading Luka Doncic, how sorry for you could I really feel?

[Justin Barrier]

So he's shooting 28% from three. That's got to get up my guy. Like, there's no way that you could survive on most teams as a role player shooting that percentage. But I just think, like, you know, if Kyrie comes back healthy and actually comes back, because he's almost certainly going to hit free agency this offseason and he's going to be due a pretty healthy payday if Kyrie's there, if AD is there, like Najee is the exact type of guy you want with a little bit more dribbling juice in order to create, especially if Kyrie's getting blitzed and whatnot. I think he slots in very nicely into the future of the Mavs. If you do want to entertain the idea of a future of the maps at this point.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's also been to give credit where it's due. The one assist game, I think is not exactly representative of what his floor game looks like because he's had a lot of really good facilitating efforts for Dallas in a way that like passer.

[Justin Barrier]

Like he's a willing passer, he wants to play team.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes, a willing passer, not a visionary one. But by the nature of being as aggressive as he is and as good getting into space as he is and playing off of the role and taking passes and doing things with it, knows where they need to go. And you've seen a bunch of games where he's wound up with kind of like Draymond Green type stat lines and that's, that's something that the also the Mavericks really need. Right. Like if your best players are going to be Kyrie Irving post return and Anthony Davis going into the future, you need good connecting passers. And whether the Mavs can afford to keep Najee Marshall I think is kind of another subplot to tack onto the can they keep Kyrie Irving Question.

[Justin Barrier]

It's also just a dog, you know, dude plays really hard and you saw the effect that like his energy and just ferocity brought to the Pelicans last year. I do have to say as I'm watching the bones of the Mavericks as they're just like trying and scraping Kai Jones minutes together like two way guys that they can only hold on to for a week or so because they have to get rid of them because they can't pay for a second two way contract. Although Kai Jones, hell yeah, got him back in there. Um, just like this team plays hard, like there's a lot of professional pride at least in house with this team. I keep thinking about, have you ever watched the, the David Simon series? Treme?

[Rob Mahoney]

I actually have not.

[Justin Barrier]

Okay. I think I was the only one to watch it and I think I did so before I moved to New Orleans. So I'm on another level with just.

[Rob Mahoney]

As research like you just wanted to get to know the area better before you touch down.

[Justin Barrier]

No, I actually just like found being around in the city was, was nice. I thought, I actually thought it was one of the better, more underrated Simon series. But I understand that people didn't want to watch it because it was a lot of atmospheric mumbo jumbo there. Whenever someone was forced, one of the musicians was forced to play on Bourbon street, there would be a tongue in cheek line that they would say to each other like there's a lot of pride on Bourbon street, right? Like oh yeah, you got to play. But you know, there's pride there. It's fine. I think about that A lot while I'm watching the Mavericks because there's a lot of pride with that team going on despite some pretty extenuating circumstances.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is an incredible poll by you. I will say exhibit A. In such pride, Kessler Edwards, who had all of like I would say 6, 6, 7 in lifts more realistically, probably like a solid 6, 6 and wiry at that, has had to fill in at center more times than any man his size reasonably should be asked to do. I wouldn't say he crushed it, but for a player of his, of his particulars, of his physical build, did about as well as you could do in those circumstances and I think definitively kind of proved himself as an NBA player. Another one of these guys we had profiled as a three and D type, purely supporting role player. He is that in a sense, but he's also such a good cutter. He's so natural and kind of finding the pockets around the rim. I think he showed that you don't just want to park a Kessler Edwards in the corner. You want to put him in the dunker spot. You want to put him at that like 45 angle cut, like you want to give him an opportunity to do some different kinds of things versus just be a, a static presence on the floor. That's a, that's a great turnout for a guy who basically was cast off by the Kings among other teams to find some footing in the league and to prove that in a desperate situation you can call on a Kessler Edwards. You can fill minutes with a guy like this and ultimately like squeeze out some wins and be competitive in games that you have no business being competitive in.

[Justin Barrier]

Wasn't someone a player with a podcast and now they're like 90 bazillion player podcast. So I get them confused at this point, basically suggesting that Kessler Edwards wasn't even like a two way NBA player at this point. Someone was like really going hard at Kessler Edwards and I was like, that's a very weird gripe. But you know, I'm here for guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

I believe the person you're talking about does not have a podcast, but it is former Sixers legend Nick Stauskas. Also former Kings legend Nick Stauskas.

[Justin Barrier]

That's right. Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

He did not imply that Kessler Edwards is not an NBA player. He straight up said this dude is not an NBA player. And Nick Stauskis, you are wrong. I'm sorry. Just, just woefully wrong.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. Who do you like in this 10th seed race? We talked about it a little bit on Monday with Pina, it's going to go down to the wire. Like I said, same record at this point. Do you think the Suns will ultimately pull out the last play in spot or do you like the maps?

[Rob Mahoney]

I kind of think the Suns will. I mean, getting Anthony Davis is a huge change in this race ultimately, but the Suns have a little bit more to play for right now and the Mavs, if we're all being honest, could really use a little bit of a lottery chance. Just like something, something to shift the, the luck in the room. Because having a no Kyrie Anthony injured Anthony Davis led Mavs team that's basically a MASH unit even now trudge through a single playoff or a single play in loss, I don't think is going to lift the spirits in any meaningful way. And these guys are, are playing hard and they are fighting for that opportunity and so I don't want to deny them that. But if we're talking about what these teams could really need, I think Dallas needs the lottery odds even if they're marginal. And Phoenix desperately needs something to go right this season and probably needs to force their way in. And they have the tiebreaker kind of in their back pocket as far as those two teams are concerned. So I, I see Phoenix getting a little bit of edge based off of the motivations of the team. The ultimate like rhythm and momentum of where they are right now. Giant Celtics loss aside, but who expected them to beat the Celtics and ultimately just kind of like what they are starting to build with some of these role players in the lineup and the juice that they've been able to give them.

[Justin Barrier]

So you were boots on the ground in Dallas this week?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, not in a professional capacity.

[Justin Barrier]

Sure, but like boots on the ground, actually this is probably more war zone, which would be outside of the arena.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I was boots in a Mexican food restaurant. That's. That was the kind of reporting that I, I was doing.

[Justin Barrier]

Okay, how, how would you describe the vibe going on right now?

[Rob Mahoney]

Horrendous. Like absolutely horrendous. Shout out to my friend Michael who begs for a shout out on this podcast. Allah was various shout outs to his friends and state farm representatives. I was hanging out with him over the weekend.

[Justin Barrier]

If was knew him, he would be shouted out like nine times.

[Rob Mahoney]

There's no doubt. But as I was spending time with him, it was like every six hours or so. He would remember that the Mavs traded Luka Doncic. It was like he was, he was reliving the trauma. Absolutely. Over and over and over again. And So I think there's the breed of people who like the Mavs, who have sworn off the team and are done and have followed Luka to the Lakers or otherwise or just kind of checked out on this season. There's the version that's just like perpetually angry and have stayed Mavs fans. But the rage is building, the protests are building. I'm very curious to see what the vibe is going to be like in the arena for Luka's return game, to say the least. And yeah, then there's just like a deep existential pain that comes with all of the various losses that the Mavs have, have suffered this season. And previously, the way this is kind of tapping into some of the like, frustrations over the way they lost Jalen Brunson previously. Like the way that some other stars and superstars kind of passed the Mavs by or escaped out the back door. It's for a team that has some titles under its belt and literally just went to the finals last season. The idea that we are here talking about this team in those terms and Rick Welch on the broadcast, like begging people to give the organization a chance to prove themselves.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, you did this to yourselves.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, you, you chose this outcome. You didn't have to try to win people back. You could have just been winning games and probably had a nice, yet again pretty successful playoff run with Luka Doncic on your team.

[Justin Barrier]

Oftentimes it sounds like when people talk about what's been left over in Dallas, like it's after we vacated Vietnam, you know, it's just like we just came back from the ship. You wouldn't believe what we saw over there.

[Rob Mahoney]

But this is why the Najee marshals are important. This is why the Kessler Edwards is are important. Like, they need something to hold on to. And I want to give all due credit to this too. Like, we're talking about the role player end of that spectrum. Kyrie Irving was awesome before he got hurt. Really good all year. Not just in terms of the shot creation which Dallas so desperately needed. All the Kyrie stuff that we've become accustomed to. And he's been lauded for the handle, the finishing, the poise in crunch time situations. Just has acclimated himself as a rather remarkable leader and I think has finally, over these last couple years, successfully channeled all of the respect he has around the league. Like, Kyrie is a guy who so many young players have come in and grown up watching and idolizing and looking to him for some little element they could like bring into their games. And watching his highlights and seeing the huge moments he's been a part of and how he conducts himself and really respecting that a lot. And Kyrie, since he's been a maverick, I would say especially has taken all that and led the younger parts of the team in really positive directions, has picked guys up in a way that he didn't earlier in his career, has really made himself part of the fabric of this thing, and I think part of the misfortune, and I say tragedy, that might be a little bit overwrought for what we're talking about. But what would be unfortunate about the circumstances if Kyrie does leave in free agency, which he could do, would just be that it would end on such a sour note, through no fault of him, like, for him to want to walk out the door at this point, I don't think anybody could blame him, but it would be great to see him back on the court in Dallas with a chance to see this through, with a chance to prove himself again post injury and kind of find that form that's been so instrumental to the Mavs being as good as they've been.

[Justin Barrier]

Do you think that's like a major shift in perception locally with Kyrie? Like, when he first got there, were there reservations? Like, was your friend Michael being like, I don't know about this guy, especially considering, like, the way that he left Brooklyn and kind of left a lot of people high and dry, James Harden in particular? Do you think it's like a major shift, or were they more open and receptive to him? Because when he got to there, he was really kind of like a hired gun almost. LeBron. When he started in LA style, I.

[Rob Mahoney]

Heard a lot of mixed feelings about it and. And polarized feeling about it, because Kyrie is just that kind of player, and especially at that point in time, was stirring up so much shit with the Nets for all kinds of reasons. And the idea of this is the guy we're going to bank the future of this team on and our. Our chance to build something around Luka on, he has aced basically every test that he could ace since that trade went down. And so whoever didn't believe in him at the time, and that's me included, like, I did not think it was the right gamble to make, given the stakes of everything involved. He proved me totally wrong, proved a lot of people totally wrong. And that's why it just sucks to see him go down with an injury this major when he's also playing so well. In addition to everything he's doing off the court and in the locker room. And for that, for that organization, like, he. He's made himself a part of who the Mavericks are. And for them to miss that at this stage in the season when they're still trying to be competitive, it's. It's just a really tough outcome for everybody.

[Justin Barrier]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Basketball fans know that a great assist can change the game. And there's no greater assist than one from State Farm. State Farm is here to help you navigate the right coverage for your home car and more. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. State Farm, Bloomington, Illinois. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. Well, let's go now pivot to a more uplifting tale. Where my boots are on the ground, where my Blundstones are on the ground.

[Rob Mahoney]

Pretty much, you just clear out and you do a solid 30 on all of the Blazer storylines that you've been optimistic about.

[Justin Barrier]

I almost feel like I need to abstain here because I have so much positivity on record at this point throughout the year about the Blazers. Like, if I add more, am I going over the top?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think you would be living your truth. I don't want. I don't want you to suppress any ounce of who you are, Justin.

[Justin Barrier]

Okay, I appreciate that. We. We appreciate that. Important. We gotta. Gotta let the freak flag fly, as it were. I have a couple I could really go to here, but I feel like I've talked a little about the Scoot Renaissance. I think we've talked ad nauseam at this point about the Deni Abd Renaissance. I think, oddly enough, I don't talk enough about to Mani Camara, who has just been an absolute revelation for this team. Like, it's funny to me, it still feels like he hasn't pierced through into the mainstream. Even though I watch this guy every game. I talk to people in the league. I talked to executives and coaches will say it publicly. Players who have just gotten their ass like. Like hounded for 30 plus minutes in a game talk about it pretty openly after the games. He's one of the best defenders in the league, and it's just kind of remarkable. I know he had that to him. I guess last year was more of like the prelude, the preview to what he's been this year. But, like, he's guarding Shea, he's guarding Steph Curry, he's guarding every top perimeter player. But then if you look at like, his top matchups in the league, I think Nikola Jokic is in the top 10 like he spends time on Giannis, like just the combination of the athleticism and like the doggedness and like the smart read he has in order to anticipate things. It's partly why he's been the league leader in charges taken this year by far. I think he's 10 up on the next player. He just has like the versatility in order to guard practically everyone and to switch on to everyone. And honestly, it's not just the defense at this point. It's also start to filter in the way that he plays offense because I thought he would just be a catch and shoot guy. And he flows so well and does so many different little things that like you're starting to see that part start to round into form. And so like, I think this guy isn't just like a three and D defensive extraordinaire. I think he's going to be just a very good basketball player.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think this is what you're starting to see some of the smarter teams do with their role players is give them more opportunities to break out of the 3 and D mold. Whereas, yeah, when push comes to shove, we want to put the ball in the hands of our best players. And a Tumani Kamara type player, you're going to be somewhere, right? It's going to be in the corner, it's going to be on the wing, maybe it's on the baseline, whatever makes sense for your skill set. But as you're developing, if you're in a position like where the Blazers are, don't just park him there and make that his destiny. Give him an opportunity to explore in the way that Denny Avdi has been able to explore, right? Like, I think Denny had more observable ball skill and passing and facilitation coming in to his time as a Blazer than Tomani Kamara did. But ultimately, if you don't think Tumani Kamara's shot is ever going to be elite, you're really aided by having him have a handle, have the ability to connect dots, to attack off the dribble, to challenge a closeout and really do something with the ball. And I agree with you, like, that's where he's really been pretty effective and I think ultimately much more confident. But all of that hinges on the fact that his defense is so fucking good and overwhelmingly so, and what he's missing. I think as you were outlining the lag in perception for a guy like Tomani Kamara, who, just to be clear, should be under all defense consideration this year, even with The Blazers, you know, in. In. In relative mediocrity slash fighting for the plan. However you want to define their season to money. Kamara is a deserving.

[Justin Barrier]

Oh God, that's. That's a little sharp.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean that might be generous given what's going on.

[Justin Barrier]

Hottest team in the league.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know. I don't know that I would say.

[Justin Barrier]

Among the hottest teams in the league over the past two months.

[Rob Mahoney]

They are among some group of teams. It's some relative hotness that is indeed a thing that's happening. But Tomani Kamar has been a huge part of it. His defense is a huge reason why their defense overall is quite solvent and pretty st. Like pretty solid for a team that's as young as they are. And I saw a great stat from Owen Phillips who has a substat called the F5 that I love and it does a lot of good data journalism, among other things. And one of the stats that he pointed out was the top 50 players this season in defensive stops, that's steals, blocks that are recovered by the defense and drawn offensive fouls overall. Number one, Dyson Daniels, maybe a candidate for defensive player of the year, certainly will make an all defensive team has been awesome. We've talked about Dyson Daniels a lot. Number two, Tumani Kamara ahead of all of these bigs, all of these, you know, defenders of even greater acclaim. Your Lou Dort types, your Amen Thompson types right there with the best in the league as far as actually ending place. And that's what you love to see from a player who can, who can move his feet as well as Tomani can, who can shuffle, who has the size to have the positional flexibility. You're talking about Justin. He just looks like a switch monster, a stopper, like a defensive player of note to monitor for the rest of his career.

[Justin Barrier]

Glad you brought this up because I do think that is one of the biggest part of his case because he doesn't do a lot of the flashy things that typically get you attention when you're a defender. Dyson Daniels deserves all of the attention. He gets his steal. I think he's up over 200 steals on the season, which is for Foster. Unbelievable. I think he's averaging over three a game at this point, like so. Yes, but it is a little flashier than something like Tomani, who basically is just getting stops, which is a little bit tougher to quantify. He's getting a lot of just like offensive fouls drawn the charges, also flustering guys into turnovers. And whatnot. And so I think that has to be a big part of the calculus. Tom Haberstrough has done a good job of putting this stuff out on the Blazers broadcast as well, because you do have to do a little bit more work to see it. And also like, who's watching a lot of these Blazers games? They haven't been watchable until the top of this year. So I get it. But I'm glad you brought up all defense because I kind of did like a rough accounting of where we might be here. Because I think if you are paying attention to Mani should be in consideration. I think he should make it that the very least second team. But I want to go through some of the names I have down here. First team, I have Mobley Daniels with an absolute bullet. I imagine one of them will probably win defensive Player of the year. I also have Jaren Jackson Jr. Another guy who I think will get consideration for that award.

[Rob Mahoney]

Agreed.

[Justin Barrier]

Lou Dort, best defender on the absolute best team, best defensive team, One of the best defensive teams of our era. And Amen Thompson, who I don't think we needed to talk more about men Thompson, we do it all the time. The next like tier though, I think that's when I could certainly see him getting into the mix. Draymond, Chris Dunn, Rudy Gobert, Walker Kessler. And now I should mention the guys who I presume are not eligible for games played. And also maybe even minutes consideration. Alex Crusoe, Chad Holmgren, Jalen Suggs, Porzingis, Anthony Davis, guys like that. So a lot of the guys that could be in the next year aren't.

[Rob Mahoney]

I actually think we might need to do a deeper dig on a guy like Chris Dunn because not only is there a 65 game limit in which you have to cross the threshold to be eligible, you also have to play a minutes restriction. Like you have to across a minutes threshold within those games. And I want to say that Kevin Pelton of ESPN pointed out earlier this year that Chris Dunn was kind of like underrepresented in terms of those like the qualifying games in a way that may ultimately rule him out of a race like this. But that said, award or not all, defensive team or not, Christian fucking rules. And I love watching him play defense and I, I hope that he's eligible because I would love to at least consider him if not put him on a ballot.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, did I miss anybody there?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think I'm. I would need to go through and see again who's like actually eligible for this just given the games missed. But I think, I think you hit the biggest once Giannis maybe. I still think Rudy Gobert is deserving of consideration for this. I think his work for Minnesota is just woefully unremarked upon given where that team is and the way that they've been able to pull their season together. OKC is interesting just because I think a number of guys could ultimately pull votes and I would guess if you are a Shea MVP voter you may also think highly of Shay's defense which is very showy in accounting stats kind of way. Not to mention just I think overall quite solid for a star. And this is always where all defense gets interesting is like the guys who get rewarded are often not the career role players who are defensive specialists. We tend to ultimately vote for guys who are like good offensive players but also play great defense. And so I, I, I wonder if someone like to Mani might get boxed out for that reason. For the sake of you know a, a, a star who otherwise is maybe not as good of a defender as him but relative to their workload we like to lionize.

[Justin Barrier]

I know that I'm not objective. If anything I think I've crossed the homer threshold a couple pods ago a couple pods a couple months ago. But I will just say as someone who watches him basically every game this season, who sees him live, who just appreciates just his progress and like what he's been able to do, he deserves not only consideration. I think it's like kind of criminal if he did not make at least second team. He's that good.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's good.

[Justin Barrier]

One of one of the more thrilling players to watch on the floor. The fans love him and I just think he's, he's damn good, you know. So I have other stuff down here but I want to see the floor to get in the other conversation.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I think we're on similar pages. I mean I think you're right about Scoot. We've already probably talked about him and his improved shooting and his improved play overall enough but we need to to put a bullet on it. Put a huge, a huge note and highlight next to him based on the way he's been able to turn his season and his career around. Shane Sharp is a one on one scorer. I'm still incredibly impressed with the other parts of his game sometimes leave me wanting. But what he does with the ball is undeniable and it's such a key component of what you think he can ultimately be right. Like there are the litmus test elements of his game. Otherwise passing defense Floor game, all these things. But what he does as a scorer is something that not a lot of players in the league can do. And so when you start from that place, you want to believe in everything else. You want to believe that the other elements of his game and ultimately the team can kind of pull together in a coherent way. I just, I'm. I remain incredibly impressed and somewhat flabbergasted by the offense he's able to create out of really, really tough spots.

[Justin Barrier]

Whatever dog is in Kamara just like, does not exist in Shade and Shark.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think so.

[Justin Barrier]

If Kamara is a pitbull, then Shaden's like a poodle, you know, Italian greyhound or something.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like there's. He's a little too cuddly, you know.

[Justin Barrier]

That'S pretty good because he is very sleek and dynamic, for sure. I'll. I'll give him this, though. Despite him being super sleepy and you almost want to like, shake him and be like, you're the most talented motherfucker on this court. You could literally float in the air. What are you doing? Sometimes I will say, like, the shot has been atrocious this year, which is mildly concerning because it looks beautiful. And I think that is going to be his ultimate like path in the league. He has to be just like a knockdown shooter. He has to be just such a weapon offensively because the defense is probably going to wax and wane depending on how much he wants to give a shit. The fact that he has made a considered effort while the shooting has plateaued to drive the ball as much as humanly possible is of credit to him because good things happen to him. We talk about this on press row all the time when Shaden is aggressive. Phillips loves talking about this. When he gets downhill, good things happen. And I think to that point, like, it's the at rim numbers of late. I think I saw it in like March or something like that. He's shooting like 80% at the rim or something like that. It's like kind of remarkable because he's just a super athlete. He could just make things happen. And that's why when we were doing the drafts a couple of weeks ago, like, I want to buy into him still because there's just so much talent overflowing with him.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep. There's so many elements of the Blazers that I really like. And that's why they're so captivating as a team, because it's like if they just had this or that, maybe it would all pull together in this way. If their key Players just got a little bit older and a little bit more seasoned and started kind of refining their games. Maybe this team would really pop. Donovan Klingon is another one of those guys for me where the games where Donovan Klingon hits, and by that I mean where he's just dominating the paint and turning everybody away. You just, you see a coherent defensive future for the Blazers and you see an incredible career for Donovan Klingan. That's not every game though. It's not every matchup and there are times where he gets in foul trouble. There's, there's just like opponents who are not particularly good, like well suited for his style of defense and how slow footed he kind of is. So I was, I am eager to see him kind of like level out and become an every night sort of impact defender. But the nights where it's working are among my favorite nights of defense to watch of anyone in the league. Like he's just so massive and has such good facility and like good defensive touch if that's a thing. And anticipation in terms of just like his ability to get hands on balls in the air. Not something that every big can do. I think he has a really, really good like innate timing that makes, makes me very hopeful for the kind of rim protector he can be.

[Justin Barrier]

The defense is going to be there and so I can only see him having a floor of being like a situational shop blocking big. Like I think he's going to have a long career as long as he stays healthy. And also really keeps the weight down of being just a go to shop blocker. I think he's going to be one of the best in the league. He's just a massive human even in comparison to other very good, very good, very big NBA players. The touch offensively I think is what really needs to come along because he's not really like a throw it down, just, just like just bully people around the rim. Just even finisher at this point. The touch is just like not really there. He kind of bobbles some passes here and there. Obviously the shooting is something that they're hoping will come around. He's taking those threes and I think that's good for a team at this point in this stage of their development for him to be doing that because if he could knock down one or two, just warps the floor in ways that I think are going to be advantageous. But I think you saw against the Cavs the other night where he really like he was going for it. Maybe he was just pissed off that UConn got bounced in the NCAA tournament and his. His run, his legacy got disrupted a little bit there. But, like, he was going for it in a way that he typically doesn't. I almost wonder if he's the type of kid because he was such a low level prospect, because he kind of like hit those massive growth spurs and all of a sudden he's the big man on campus at UConn, like, has a little imposter syndrome, which a lot of people do. You know, podcasters and NBA players alike, certainly. I think he really needs to, like, get up. And when you see that click in when he does play with ferocity, like, he's a completely different player. He just needs to do that. Half a season. I want to see half a season. I want to see every single game out there, but it's there. He's a big old boy, you know, he can only be so bad.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, it just sounds like Portland needs some dog transplants. You know, they need a. They need a little bit of a different bite and a different energy in some of these guys. Or in Clingan's case, maybe he's in more of like a dog share where he's. He's splitting it with a former partner or something, and he doesn't have the dog in him all the time, but when it's there, you really respect it.

[Justin Barrier]

Last thing I'll say here, because we're going on, this is literally the last.

[Rob Mahoney]

One because we've talked too much about the Blaze. Just like, we got to keep it moving.

[Justin Barrier]

No, this one's good, though. Jeremy Grant hasn't had a very good season by any measure. Also, just not playing of late. And I do wonder about the future of him with the team. I don't know if you've ever been to Jeremy Grant's Instagram, which is just.

[Rob Mahoney]

Hell of it, but I can't say I've spent a lot of time there.

[Justin Barrier]

The legends are true, my friend, because he might be the most Portland person I've ever encountered. And at one point I was in an Uber and there was like, just like a cat in there. So there's like some wild things going on in Portland. Here are some recent things that he has done, which he has Instagrammed with great glee and excitement. He cooked meat on an outside grill. Like, it's just like one of these, like, cool, hip, real videos of him doing a bunch of different things.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Justin Barrier]

He's like, he's just like in a cast iron pan in the dark making some sort of meat and I was like, okay, that's cool.

[Rob Mahoney]

He really is one of us. I don't know what to tell you.

[Justin Barrier]

It's true. He was shopping for fabrics. He was sitting pensively on a log by the coast. He was in a pottery class. He was playing a Game Boy while eating pho. And then he was also either playing or watching someone with, like, some sort of sitar sort of instrument, but it almost looked like a harp but made of wood.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, aren't harps made of wood?

[Justin Barrier]

No, but like, more like. Like beech wood. Not necessarily. Like some handcrafted thing by. By an expert. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

You think this was maybe a homemade instrument of some kind?

[Justin Barrier]

I don't know what was going on, but this guy lives the type of life in Portland that I wish I'd had. And I just. I would like this to alert people that if you're not following him at this point, you should.

[Rob Mahoney]

It sounds incredible. I need to get on that. I mean, I respect literally every part of what you just described. I have one follow up question, which is you mentioned he's playing Game Boy while eating pho. Are we talking og Gray brick, Game Boy sleek, Game Boy pocket? Are we talking, like, the horizontal situation? What. What orientation of Game Boy was he playing?

[Justin Barrier]

I think it was og, but I think it might be one of those, like, new versions where it's actually a digital screen.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, like. Like one of the emulators that. It's, like, bootlegging all this shit not to. Not to blow up Jeremy Grant's, like. We're not officially saying that he's emulating anything, but hypothetically, yeah.

[Justin Barrier]

I mean, you know, you want the old school vibes with the comforts of modern technology, which I think we could all appreciate. And it seemed like that's what he was doing.

[Rob Mahoney]

All right, all right, let's keep it going. We got to get to the spurs.

[Justin Barrier]

Okay. We have three more teams. We're 50 minutes into this podcast. Jesus Christ.

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[Rob Mahoney]

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[Justin Barrier]

Next up San Antonio spurs what do you got?

[Rob Mahoney]

I want to talk about Victor Wembanyama as a rebounder. We talk all the time about his defense. We talk all the time about what he should or shouldn't be doing offensively and the stretch and kind of his place in the modern game. Victor Wembanyama is 7:3. I don't need to tell you that you would think that a player of his size of course is going to pull down all sorts of rebounds and there is a degree of his game that is like a dude plucking fruit off of a shrub, right? Like that is a that is a part of the experience of being 7:3. That said, historically speaking, players of Victor size and larger are almost always crazy lanky, have super high bases, get boxed out of rebounds pretty often. You're Manute Bowl, Rick Smith, Sean Bradley, even Yao to be honest with you, not like an awesome all time level rebounder. Victor Webanyama right now is basically having, or was having before his season ended, one of the best rebounding seasons ever for a player his size. With one notable exception who we should also say is active in the league right now in Zach Edey, another, another longboy. The long boys are back, Justin. They're rebounding like never before. They're having a huge impact on the game in multiple ways and I just think this part of Victor is so crucial in terms of how the the spurs are going to go about building their team because you want all of these counterpoints to the things he can do. I think if he's a good rebounder, one of the avenues it opens up is the kinds of players you can have at the four are not just stretch four types which you could have if you want space and you want Victor kind of going more and more to the rim, which fair enough, you could also have kind of power like a traditional power forward type next to him who may be a little undersized but is good at scoring inside and isn't gobbling up rebounds in a way that Web and Yama might be. But ultimately there's like a symbiosis that can happen there between everything that he brings to the table and everything that like we, we talk about these guys all the time. You know, your, your Dewan Blair, Ike Diogu, like, these are, these are relatively low bars to clear as far as like, who you want playing an extra next to Victor Wembanyama, but a burly inside player who could actually make a lot of sense working alongside him, whether he's a good rebounder or not.

[Justin Barrier]

What I'm hearing from you is a backdoor case that the spurs should trade for Jonathan Kaminga.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't hate it.

[Justin Barrier]

Oh, okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't hate it or, you know, like I this. But this is what opens up, right? Like guys like Jonathan Kamiga, guys like Jonathan Isaac even, right. Like guys who have really high specific value that is not rebounding. And if you have him there and you have enough guys in the backcourt who are competitive, like Jeremy Sohan's another kind of like positionally weird player who could fit this mold potentially as he continues to grow. But I just think this is one part of his game that we don't talk about enough. He's a sleek and clever passer. He's obviously a good and threatening shooter. He does things because of his size that no one else can do and is one of the best room protectors in basketball. Would have been an all NBA player this season in part because among all those other things, he's also a really high level rebounder which is something that guys, his eyes just do not do historically.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, it's a bummer we haven't gotten the second half of Wembley because he was just so ready to take off here. And obviously Damian Lillard we should mention, is also going through something similar. We probably won't see him for the rest of the season. So just this is a really tough time for some of our favorite players right now. But I do think it's probably a little telling that you didn't pick any of the current players playing for the San Antonio spurs right now.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I can do that. Do you want to talk about some of those?

[Justin Barrier]

Well, I do, but I don't want to go with one of the young guys. I actually want to talk about Chris Paul who somehow under the radar has played every single game in the NBA this year. He is up to. I believe 71 games played. He is on track to play 82 games at 39 years of age. I can't believe it. Like, not only that, but he's been just so helpful. I don't know if, like, on a high level competitive team he'd be playing 28 minutes a game, but he's just so good at organizing and making sense out of all the disparate talents that they have on this team at just like, God damn, we talked about LeBron going for, like trying to play every single game. Paul's actually doing that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes. And significantly smaller. And so therefore it's much more difficult when you're that age and that small to carve out advantages to stay healthy. Like, it's an impossible thing. And I have to say, I think the way that the spurs have, have managed Chris Paul's season and the way that he's managed his season have just been a plus across the board. He's had an incredible impact on that team. This is, despite everything that's been going for and against the spurs this season, a pretty like, solid middle of the road kind of offense. That's crazy given who hasn't been playing and when. And yeah, defensively without Wemby, they've just fallen off a cliff. They have no means to be competitive defensively without Victor Weapanyama. But Chris Paul is a huge part of the reason why, despite everything else, no Fox, no Webman, Yamba, these guys out of the lineup, these misfitting, like these ill fitting parts, all of a sudden they're just kind of hanging in some of these games and they're ultimately able to run coherent NBA offense. And so, as usual, we salute Chris Paul on this podcast for all of the work that he does.

[Justin Barrier]

The Rockets traded Chris Paul in 2019 in large part because it seemed like him and James Harden just butted heads. A lot happens. Happens a lot to Chris Paul, frankly. But part of that was also, I think, the fear that his BO body was breaking down. The Thunder, in fact, had a very, like, complicated process for him in order to, like, manage his minutes and all this other stuff. And he was kind of like, I kind of want to play a lot of games. And since then, maybe it's the vegan diet, maybe he's doing something else. Maybe he's just like sucking down bone marrow before games. I don't know what this guy is doing, but, like, that's been six years now and he's been a steady presence in the lineup and he's still awesome. He's going to be 40 in May, like, God damn, that guy could play three more years.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I have no idea what his, what his future is going to be in kind of the refreshed full season of Dear and Fox era of the San Antonio Spurs. There's, there's a lot of different permutations that could work for him there or elsewhere, but I kind of hope he sticks around. I think he works with Fox. Clearly, we've seen some early indications of that. Also is such a great backup and kind of a steady hand for a group of young players that I like on balance, but need some guidance and need some orientation to understand, like what they're supposed to be doing on the floor at a given moment. And as far as players that you want in Stefan Castle's ear for a certain indefinite period of time, a great one to have. Not, maybe not so long that he grates on Stefan Castle in the way that he grates on a lot of other people. But we're still in the window. We're still in the honeymoon stage ultimately of Chris Paul. And I just think he's been so good at exactly what the spurs wanted him to be.

[Justin Barrier]

He's fine with the Youngs. It's the Olds that he has a tendency to.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know that that's entirely true. I think there are some Youngs historically that have not necessarily appreciated his guidance. There's. There's a point, as with all of us, where a certain amount of chiding hits the wall.

[Justin Barrier]

Okay, so maybe we won't bring Jonathan Kaminga back into his life then.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, maybe not.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, I will say also spurs, their own pick looking pretty valuable right now. And as we've seen in years past, the spurs are probably going to luck into base Bailey or something, and they won't even have to trade for anybody else. But speaking of lottery luck, a team that has completely devoted the back end of their season to that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Hold on. I don't want to move on from the spurs so quickly. I think there's. There's at least two things we need to hit before we move on. One, Sandro Mamu Kilishville just scored 34 points in 19 minutes, something that has never been done before in the history of the league. Does it mean anything? No, but it was not mentioned on this podcast and simply must, so long as I am sitting in this chair. So shout out to Sandro for an incredible historic accomplishment as a member of the San Antonio Spurs. Also, I want to give a quick shout out to Harrison Barnes, corner marksman, rock solid Pro was left for dead by the Sacramento Kings. Straight up salary dumped because they did not think it seemed that he was a useful NBA player anymore. He is second on the team in total minutes. Amazing season for Harrison Barnes. Really cashing in on yet again doing the exact kind of veteran shit this team needed.

[Justin Barrier]

I believe the spurs got a future pick or maybe a pick swap from the Kings. Yeah, they got the trade, which is insane. And he's just a totally like, like awesome adult in the room for a team that needs exactly what he brings. It's crazy. Very high in the spurs future. Not as high on the future of the New Orleans Pelicans. Although I do think you're seeing a little bit of things as they go down the stretch that have shown that glimmer of light that we all kind of fool ourselves into year after year after year. We can talk about a lot of things here. I think we got to talk about healthy, jacked as hell Zion with what looks like the goatee from Shep from Above the Rim. I don't know if that, that reference is dated for our listenership.

[Rob Mahoney]

That doesn't even mean anything to me. I'm going to be honest with you.

[Justin Barrier]

Oh, come on. How about Evil Abed from Community?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, yeah, we're getting a little closer.

[Justin Barrier]

That there was some like symbolic nature to him having the goatee because he means business and good lord, has he just played out of his mind now? Has missed the last three games with I believe a back issue which isn't great. And is the story of Zion that he is so fantastic that he just isn't available all the time in order to display those feats. But going back to our friend Owen Phillips, who I believe is a ringer contributor in back in the day, he has this stat that Zion is the most double teamed player.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Justin Barrier]

In the tracking history. So dating back to 2013, 2014. So over a decade at this point, Zion has been doubled more than any single player in that span. Not only that, the second most double team player. The gap between first and second is the same between second and 100. So maybe that speaks to the quality of teammates he's playing around or their ability to like put the right team around him, but it also means that Zion's pretty fucking good when he's playing.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't even know that it's like the quality of the team around him because Zion has played with good players. They're just often not players that make a lot of sense together and often they're players who can't Space the floor in the ways that you need. So, yeah, if you have the option of standing on the tracks when the train's coming through or forcing the ball to Jose Alvarado to chuck a three, I know which way I would go, personally. All of that said, what's underlining all of those facts and the decision making therein is that Zion is basically unguardable one on one at this moment in time. And he's doing it in all sorts of ways. He is just one of the most aggressive drivers in the league, one of the most aggressive players of getting all the way to the rim and finishing with force and finesse, a combination that I honestly just don't really see among the elite young players today. Like, there's a lot of guys who finish well dunking, but don't necessarily have the touch on layups. Has a little bit of everything in terms of his. His actual skill set once he gets close to the hoop. He's been awesome and he's been awesome even in some ways that are. That are a little surprising to me to kind of like smuggle another pick in here as far as, you know, nice things to say about the Pelicans. Kelly Olenek has had a really nice impact on the team since coming over in the Brandon Ingram trade. This is a team that desperately needed any live front court body, anyone who can play power forward and center minutes. The Pelicans needed you and they brought in somebody who not only can do that, and I think has been sort of a bright spot for almost every team he's played for in a limited role, like just come off the bench, fill in the starting lineup. Kelly Olenek makes some things happen that are usually quite positive. There's been some lineups with zion at the 3 and Kelly Olenek at the 4. And then plug in your big of choice and look, there are very varied results depending on who that big is and who the Pelicans are playing against. But even the idea that you would play Zion at the three and that you now have a mechanism to do it in a way that makes any sense whatsoever. And some of those groups have been quite effective, very tantalizing to me. I don't know how realistic that is when you have Trey Murphy and Herb Jones and all these guys back. But throw it at the wall, see what works. Let's get a sense of kind of the types of mismatches that Zion can attack and excel against and what it can open up for the rest of your team. I don't mind it Sort of like a look within the look.

[Justin Barrier]

Well, Herb Jones is a center. I don't know if you've heard that's true.

[Rob Mahoney]

But also a point guard.

[Justin Barrier]

Also a point. Yeah. I feel like every new season we're going to go in and Zion is being sold as a new position. Like next year it's going to be like he's our shooting guard. Guys didn't think it could happen, but he could do it because he's just that talented. I'm glad you highlighted Olenek because I do like the bench players they got from Toronto in that trade for Ingram. Not only Bruce Brown, who's just like, versatile in the way that you want and like, fills gaps in the way you want around a talent like Zion, because Zion does something so well, but so specifically. You also want all the other guys around him to maybe chip in in different areas in order to count for some of the things he doesn't do. For instance, like, Brown is going to be a physical defender, but also, like, get on the boards and do like a little bit of playmaking, a little bit of shooting. Like, he's exactly the type of guy you want around him. The same way, like, he served that role for Jokic. He will just do enough of a little things. But Olenek is at this point been the career guy you turn to when you can't get an actual stretch big like the one you want in order to put next to your precious front court scorer. And he's so good at that because.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, like, the irony is he's actually, as far as shooting, one of the few, like, actually good and reliable stretch bigs in recent NBA history. But maybe he doesn't give you enough of the other things that you want.

[Justin Barrier]

Yes. Although I will say playmaking the other day, I know he can do that a March, but yeah, he had like seven assists the other night, which was pretty incredible. Just so skilled.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Justin Barrier]

I also think he. He might like, convince teams that he's more of a big than he actually is because he's so much bigger. He's like wider, he's a little girthier than like another like four or like a wing masquerading as a four. He's like a four, a five who should be a four, and sometimes maybe even a three, because defensively he just doesn't bring the wood. But he's like this perfect situational big you want in a rotation specifically around Zion, because if you want that option, yeah, let's put more juice on the, on the floor and he's going to be able to knock down shots. So I really like what he's been able to do.

[Rob Mahoney]

I do too. I I think ultimately here's one of the things I like about New Orleans. I love that Willie Green is letting to like willing to let guys try stuff and we saw that with Herb Jones last season, expanding his playmaking, bringing the ball up. We've seen him play some center at times, as you mentioned. We've also seen it through Trey Murphy, whose development has just been probably the single best story coming out of New Orleans this season and turning into the kind of guy who I don't think Trey Murphy's vision and playmaking is ever going to be at a super high star level per se, but going from stretch option and good kind of like wing compliment to someone who now can be a 20 a legit 20 a game score running pick and roll. A dramatic change in everything that's happening in New Orleans and sneakily part of the reason why trading Brandon Ingram and kind of moving on from that experiment is not such a bad idea and it's totally manageable under these circumstances. There's, there's still all these pieces that the Pelicans have to fit together, but now one of them can play a variety of roles from the wing. He's a natural kind of floating between 2, 3, 4. He can be on and off the ball. He's a plus defender, he's a good spacer if you need him to be. Just like purely a spot up guy while Zion cooks or whatever else you want to do. I just don't know what Trey Murphy can't do. And that's a great place to if we're going to talk about what coalesced this year that actually bodes well for the Pelicans, that's got to be the one.

[Justin Barrier]

Trey Murphy is definitely the new favorite Pelican among the bloggerati. You know like everyone at the Ringer fucking loves Trey Murphy and if you follow our top 100 rankings you could see him slowly climb those charts past Joel Embiid, the former mvp. Because everybody loves what Trey Murphy does and I also think people really respect how much time he puts into his game. Like totally the self creation that he was flashing post Ingram trade. He had a couple 30, 40 point nights just because he typically in years past was more of a catch and shoot guy but like he was making things happening often off the dribble, step backs, little side steps, little hesitation moves in order to get more to the rim. Like that guy seems like he's a real baghead. Like, he really, like, takes the time to work on his craft. And so I could see him being even better than he was this year. Like, I could see him being clearly like a number two guy on this team. Like the next running mate that you want next to Zion, like a top 30 sort of talent. Like, that guy's good. And in fact, that's like the entire Pelicans roster. Like, I have to go to like, the 10th and 11th spot before. I just don't like a guy on their team.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Justin Barrier]

Unfortunately, they'll end up winning 30 games next year and nobody will. Nothing will change. But, like, they have the talent to do something different.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is why we have to have a rule on a group chat that we never trust the Pelicans, because on paper, there are always so many reasons that we want to believe in them. And frankly, even this year, they've been bad, just consistently bad. They have a weird roster that had zero continuity. Given all the changes that they've made and how injured guys have been in the past. They could not afford major injuries and basically everyone got hurt. Dejounte Murray out. Brandon Ingram, before he got traded was obviously out. Trey Murphy, now out. Herb Jones has been out for a long time. Everyone but Zion, coincidentally, has had, like, a significant and long term injury on this team. There's still a part of me that wants to think if you get some of the guys who are left healthy and back, all of a sudden it's looking more like a play in. At least play in adjacent kind of group, if not right there in the thick of things. And so why not? The Pelicans is our perpetual mantra, to which someone else on the podcast has to say, no, we do not do that here.

[Justin Barrier]

I'm sure as we're recording this, we're just not looking at our phones. Zion has requested a trade, and that's why he hasn't been playing for the past.

[Rob Mahoney]

Entirely possible, because, let me tell you.

[Justin Barrier]

That'S going to percolate over the summer as well. But maybe they'll luck into Dylan Harper because they're going to have one of the best lottery odds and that will just help them pivot to the next era where they'll ultimately disappoint despite being very, very strong, talented. Yeah. Last team on the board, Utah Jazz. I have one, and I think it's the same one that you likely have, which is Walker Kessler. Just being an absolute monster on the boards. We put him back into our top 100. Speaking of our rankings, which have been Refreshed and are up on the ringer.com right now. You can check those out. Danny Chow had a stat in there about Walker Kessler who jumped back in in the back end of our rankings. 8.4 block percentage career wise for Walker Kessler. The only players to do that with at least 3,000 minutes in their career, Kessler Wembanyama, Manute bowl, not Bol bowl. And Jim McIlvaine. He's a goddamn monster.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is why. Look, I'm not going to say Walker Kessler is untradeable, but he is a the closest thing that Utah has to a real building block. A solid foundational player who you could see being a part of the Jazz for years and years to come. And there was a swell of conversation around like December, January where fans of so many teams around the league were like wishcasting their way into Walker Kessler trade machine ideas. Guys, this guy is not available for like your late first round pick. That's not like he's way, way too good to the point that I know we're not in the habit of just like raving about the defense of players who play for some of the worst defensive teams in the league, which the Jazz are. Walker Kessler, as we alluded to earlier, is a legitimate all defense candidate. He's one of the best rim protectors in basketball. He would be our go to. This is the best young shot blocker in the league if not for the existence of Victor Wembanyama. And he's sort of overshadowed by just the proportions of Victor down there. But overall, Walker Kessler is an awesome presence in the paint to have and I think most importantly to kind of pivot from the Donovan Klingon conversation we were having is looking so much more comfortable around the basket trying to exert his like his, his force on offense. This is something where he had such a weird year last year. Kind of up and down. It seemed like he was really in his head about the role he was supposed to play and kind of like what his touches were and how, how to make an impact on that side of the floor. Wildly efficient, I think more confident than he's ever been. He's also now doing this weird shit where he just shoots like six threes a game sometimes because the Jazz are in the position that they're in.

[Justin Barrier]

We're going to talk about that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. If you consider that a success, I think depends on what you judge their goals to be. I would say it's been quite successful for what the Jazz are trying to do, which is let him try it out. And who cares what happens to the bottom line of this game, which that's where. That's what Utah should be doing.

[Justin Barrier]

You've been hearing a lot of consternation about tinking. And you might say to yourself, dear fan, listening at home, what? Like, all my favorite players, they're suiting up, like, what's the issue? Like, they're not just sitting out games anymore. There's no more load management going on here. Oftentimes that's because those players are starting and not necessarily finishing. So if you look at the slow deterioration of the minutes for teams like, oh, let's say the Washington Wizards, like Khris Middleton, huh, Not playing as much these days. That's part of it. And also Walker Kessler, I appreciate the development and the time he's getting in order to flash this part of his game, which he never will again in the NBA. But it is reaching Mark Madsen level of what the fuck are they letting this guy doing? Because he has taken 55, three pointers in his career to date, 27 of them have come in the past six games. Not six weeks, six games. He was one for eight, I believe, the other night. He is jacking. And it's fun to watch if you're watching a Jazz game, but, like, good Lord, the Jazz are pulling out no stops in order to get flagged.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think as far as overall silver linings and nice things we could say about the Jazz, Walker Kessler is a huge one overall, though. This is just a team that, through those sorts of tanking enterprises, like the performance art of Walker Kessler taking a bunch of threes, the lineup decisions of Will Hardy overall, which I would say are not optimized to, like, win tonight. They're optimized for development, which is totally fair given where this team is. The stash of draft capital that this team has at its disposal and is not, like, pushing in right now, and I'm not saying that they should. Lowry, Markkanen, who and I'll say the veterans across the board, like, you know, there's news today that Jordan Clarkson is kind of shutting down for a while with some plantar fasciitis. Plantar fasciitis is a real thing. It's also a thing that players play through all the time, depending on its severity. I think there's a lot of, like, conservative timetables with the Jazz right now, like, not rushing guys back, letting the veterans take their time on, you know, on the ir. All of that is well and good. It is within the rules of what you're allowed to do if you're a team in the Jazzes position. What I'm trying to say is this is a team that could be a lot better if they had an interest in being a lot better. What I'm wondering, depending, and this may depend on the way that the lot like the ping pong balls bounce in the lottery for the Jazz and who they end up getting. I'm a little worried that no matter what happens, Cooper, Flag or otherwise, they may be staring down another season of this. They may be staring down another season of slow burn development. And that might be healthy for the franchise overall, but might lead us next March to be having the same kind of conversation about the relative bright spots of the Utah Jazz. And I'm. I am eager and ready for the next phase of their development. I don't. I know no one wants to rush anything, but I would like to live in a world where Lowry Markkanen can play competitive basketball again.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah, I think he would as well. Although it seems like he's just hanging out counting his money most of the time. Maybe it's a good life, good work on the weekends. I know it sounds fucking sick. I will say if they do luck into Flag, which they presumably will have of some of the top odds in order to do so, I almost wonder if he's such a maniac and the more and more you hear about like some of his work ethic stuff, he is absolutely like Kobe brained and in some of his approach to doing stuff like this, just like an unbelievable competitor. I don't think that they could be so bad, especially because like you mentioned, they have like four guys who are just like helpful MVA NBA players, like marketing all these other guys. They might be too good in order to bottom out for what would it be like, like the third time at this point you only get two tanks is what I'm saying. So if you get flag, you don't get another one. Even though A.J. deBont says come in and I know he's a Utah guy, he's a BYU guy coming up here. You gotta be careful. You know, they might be too good next year for this exercise.

[Rob Mahoney]

They might be. I think ultimately with them they could trade almost anybody like Larry Markin and included. Like if you, if you were to tell me and ask me like who, who are the members of this team who will definitively be a part of the Utah Jazz renaissance? I would say Walker Kessler is the closest to an answer you're going to get. Other than that, I don't think there's anybody who's kind of really planted there and that. So the idea of, like, oh, you're doing these many consecutive tanks, yes, in a way. But you're also kind of starting fresh with whoever they get. Like, it's, it sucks for a fan base. It sucks for people who are invested in watching Utah Jazz basketball grow. But it's just going to be a longer process, I think, for this team because they have the job security and they have the flexibility to see out the process. And I just hope on the other side of it that Stu stuff all pays off.

[Justin Barrier]

Yeah. Speaking of which, we should plug Kyle Mann's Home and Away, where he went to Utah and explored some of these same issues. So give that a check out on YouTube.com Ringer MBA, I believe. Ringer MBA. There we go. Why don't we wrap it there? Because we've talked over an hour about really bad teams with. No, I love it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, what are we doing?

[Justin Barrier]

We really, like, pop the cap here and just, like, had our best time. All right, thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back next week. Have something special in store for one of the episodes next week. So stay tuned for that. But we will talk to you then. This episode is brought to you by Universal Pictures. From Universal Pictures and Blumhouse, come a storm of terror. From the director of the Shallows. The woman in the Yard. Don't let her in. Where does she come from? What does she want? When will she leave? Today's the day. The Woman in the Yard only in theaters March 28th.