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The Ringer NBA Show
Seven Questions That Will Decide Game 7 of the Finals. Plus, the Lakers Sale. | Group Chat
01:15:43
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- [00:00]
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- [01:15]
Justin Barrier
Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Barrier. And joining me with their jerseys tucked into their pants. Not only their pants, their jeans, but just also the front, we've got Rob Mahoney, we've got Big Woz, and we've got Game seven. Game seven. Do you want to do the full zaza here or.
- [01:35]
Rob Mahoney
It's really hard to imitate his tone, but it's like a Game seven, baby. No.
- [01:43]
Justin Barrier
What was it? Do it the hard way. Nothing's easy.
- [01:47]
Rob Mahoney
It is. You got to get the nothing easy. Very important part of the process. But you raised the jersey, Tuck. Justin, I'm curious for you. When was the last time you wore as an adult man a basketball jersey that was not like a rec league jersey of a player of a thing, of a place?
- [02:01]
Justin Barrier
I think it was the same time that you guys probably wore the last ones, which was in front of the Indiana faithful. Yeah, with our, with our jerseys. Yeah. I haven't worn one beyond that since, I don't know, early college. Like a Stefan Marbury jersey that I thought that I was like really cool wearing, but then wore it like twice. Was you wearing jerseys regularly?
- [02:22]
Big Woz
No, I have one soccer jersey. I have a Kevin de Bruyne jersey that I WORE to the U.S. women's National Team friendly that I went to like two months ago.
- [02:35]
Rob Mahoney
Nice.
- [02:35]
Big Woz
So, yeah, that's about it though.
- [02:38]
Justin Barrier
Yeah.
- [02:38]
Rob Mahoney
Soccer kit's a different beast though. I like again, the tanks.
- [02:41]
Big Woz
This is a shirt.
- [02:42]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [02:43]
Justin Barrier
I don't Know if that counts, make a difference.
- [02:45]
Rob Mahoney
They do. You can see what Adidas was up to. You know, you can. You can understand the vision.
- [02:49]
Justin Barrier
Well, it's funny because as we kind of go toward this game seven, we're getting a lot of clips of LeBron in the game seven against Golden State. And you're reminded of how for a while there was. We wore T shirts as jerseys and.
- [03:02]
Big Woz
Thought it was cool, the sleeved NBA jersey era. Not our best moment that ever existed. But yeah, I think with jerseys, keep it simple and the people will enjoy it.
- [03:15]
Rob Mahoney
The fact that that one, though, is burned into Game 7 history in particular, it's incomprehensible in a lot of ways.
- [03:24]
Big Woz
Like ripped during the IGU dollar blocked.
- [03:27]
Justin Barrier
Up because those sleeves were so constricting. I think a lot of players complained that it was actually affecting their motion. Compression sleeves, the bottoms of them. Yeah, it's wild. We did this for a time.
- [03:39]
Rob Mahoney
We did this for a time. No longer. But the Game Sevens will continue apace. We get another NBA Finals Game seven. The fifth during my lifetime and so. Or, sorry, the sixth during my lifetime. We've had five on record. I am overjoyed that we are here. We all talked about this coming in as a potentially maybe short series, that we weren't sure if the Pacers were going to be up to the competitive standard of specifically the OKC defense. That has not been the case at all. This has been everything I could have wanted from a series like this down to the fact that we now get a winner take all. Game seven. Just. Just the best possible outcome in professional sports, like a NBA Game seven in the Finals. I don't know what's better than that.
- [04:20]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, let's take this big picture first, because I have down here seven, count them, seven questions to decide Game seven of the NBA Finals on Sunday. And we have to start first and foremost with how good this NBA Finals has been, as Rob is kind of alluding to. My question was for you is, where does this Finals rank among the best you've seen? Is it already, like, in the upper echelon? Are you waiting to see seven to get there? Like, where are you?
- [04:46]
Big Woz
I can't put it above 16, of course, because in my mind, that's peak NBA non Jordan addition that I've experienced in terms of stakes, in terms of interest, in terms of, like, I remember exactly where I was, what I was doing, who I was doing it with. Watching that Game seven. I remember the last, like, step shot and like, Kev Love catching a rebound. And I Was like the Cavs really just won the championship. Like that, I think is just a class by itself. But outside of that, it's 2013, which LeBron is involved in too, with the Spurs. Ray Allen shot Game seven was pretty freaking phenomenal. Game seven was incredible, by the way. Back and forth, no big leads for real in that game. Big LeBron shots down the stretch. Duncan bricking the layup. Like I remember that like it was yesterday too. And then I would say, man, the Kobe Celtics, one that went to seven games. Our guy, Ron Artest, Pacers legend, Ron Artest making that big three to kind of ice the game. Just. Yeah, those three finals stick out to me in that particular. In that order, by the way, I.
- [06:17]
Rob Mahoney
Have to admit, both the Celtics and the Lakers wins in of recent vintage, relatively recent vintage. I just did not move me at all. I don't know why. Like, long competitive series, hard fought. It's just like I never quite felt the charge of those series in a way that I certainly felt.
- [06:34]
Big Woz
You mean Ubutu and the Pow and Kobe.
- [06:37]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. And. And honestly, if we want to go back, even the Lakers 3 Pete, which was. Some of those were not the most competitive series. Some of it was awesome basketball to watch or to behold or to rewatch. But compared to things like the LeBron exercises you mentioned, like whether it's the Cavs warriors, whether it's the Spurs Heat, whether it's MAVS HEAT In 2011, I would put, yeah, I would put those a cut above. And I would say even, you know, we talk about 2013 heat, Spurs a lot. 2014 spurs heat in which again, not a seven game exercise or demonstration by.
- [07:12]
Big Woz
Any stretch, but like, amazing.
- [07:13]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, the way they dismantled the Heat had a like I cannot believe my eyes sort of quality that I think set even that series apart and made it something pretty special. But beyond those that we mentioned, I would say this Thunder Pacer series is right there. I would say this is, you know, depending on how you want to suss all that out, maybe on the cusp of your top five or so of the last 25 years of NBA Finals, which is a crazy thing to be living and experiencing firsthand, especially when the ground just keeps moving under our feet as to what the series even is.
- [07:43]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, so there have been now 10 game sevens. This will be the 10th one over the course of NBA history. And I think at that point, once you've reached that threshold, you're already in an upper tier. You're already in the upper crust of the games that we're going to remember. And so for that reason alone, I think like we have gotten to a point where we've crossed into elite classic territory. Like this is a hardwood classic that if that still existed, I don't know if NBA TV still exists, they would be playing this 20 years down the road. Well, maybe when they're streaming it on Twitch in the, like the metaverse, you will see this series because of that. And the games have been very good. If anything, this is the type of series wise I think that will appreciate over time. Almost like a fine wine where it's like, oh, maybe we got too mixed up in the small markets and not having the celebrity players, but these guys will probably have bigger legacies as we go along, the Thunder in particular. So I almost wonder if this is going to be looked back at as more of a thing that it is even now.
- [08:40]
Big Woz
Yeah, I think if I look back at the games, like last night was a blowout. There's probably been like two blowouts or whatever. But the rest of the games, especially when you think about game one, which is just an all time classic in the way it culminates, the comeback culminates in a freaking buzzer beater which we got to watch together in person and then react in real time. I'll remember that feeling for a very long time. And I think more importantly, man, these two teams, like, I think there was this idea that Indy was not a worthy opponent. Like they're the freaking Thunders equal. It sounds insane to say that. The fact that those words just came out of my mouth, I almost want to jump out of my body. But the Indiana Pacers are, if not the best, they're the second best team in the NBA this season. I don't think there's an argument to be made otherwise. Like credibly, you cannot make the argument. And so two evenly matched teams, like obviously different in terms of their construction and the way they go about their business. Like, you know, Indiana, Indiana, they have two all stars, but nobody's even close to an MVP level, like even sniffing it where you could say, well no, you would never make that case and OKC has the MVP on their team. It's just, you know, I just think it's a super compelling matchup. There are things that are left to be desired. I'm not gonna lie. The whole OKC stoicism, we're even keel. I'm a freaking metronome. I'm Mark Dignold, I'm not a human being. Blah, blah, like that shit kind of gets corny. To me, I'm not gonna lie. I think feelings and emotion are cool parts of sports. Um, that. That I could use a little bit more of from the OKC side. But in terms of the pure basketball, I have zero complaints.
- [10:35]
Rob Mahoney
I. I think you might be doing Mark Dagnault a little dirty. He's not an automaton. Like the. The. The man has thoughts and feelings.
- [10:43]
Big Woz
He's. He's white. He's white. Fucking. What's his name in Boston. Why am I blanket? Yeah, he's white. Joe Maz.
- [10:52]
Justin Barrier
Same thing. Is Jiu Jitsu.
- [10:54]
Big Woz
No, it's just the. The post game with the. Yeah. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
- [11:00]
Justin Barrier
Like, he's very process oriented.
- [11:03]
Big Woz
Miss me? Emotions say some rational.
- [11:05]
Justin Barrier
The logistics. Yeah, I mean, I think the. What the Pacers have shown is that they are clearly, if not the best and clearly the 1B playoff team here. Like, we've talked in the past about the Heat, like, going to another level in the playoffs and almost being a different team once they've gotten there. It feels like the Pacers overall are just built for these sorts of environments to the point where, like, everyone was counting them out yet again going into last night's game, and there was actually more of a reason to. Seems like J Dub came about, but also Halliburton being injured, that clearly, like, handicapped them in a way that we thought would ultimately just lead them to tilt over. But to do that yet again, to subvert the expectations again when we thought we were done doing that, I think speaks to just, like, how they're able to become something different in the postseason that people aren't expecting.
- [11:57]
Rob Mahoney
I think both of these teams have proven to be just, like, really evasive tactically and certainly, like, narrative proof in terms of our understanding and analysis of this series. Like, we've. We've constantly felt like, okay, there is that breakthrough you're. You're alluding to, Justin. Whether it's J Dub, whether it's OKC finally kind of breaking through. Oh, wait, here come the Pacers in game six. And it's. You can trace it back all the way through this series where every time one of these teams gets a leg up, the other one pulls the rug, the other one makes some crucial adjustment, the other one kind of shifts its tactics around just a little bit, or it's effort, or it's three point shooting or whatever the variable is on that night. And it makes these games really hard to get your arms around in a really exciting way, in a way that feels like captivating and Makes you want to keep watching to know, like, I just have no idea what the Pacers are capable of in Game 7 on the road in OKC. I would not be shocked if they win it. How could you be at this point, given everything that they've accomplished and the fact that this team just like, cannot be rattled and cannot be shaken from the way that they play. And at the same time, you can't talk yourself out of the idea that the Thunder would come in with a command performance because they've responded to some of their biggest losses with exactly those kinds of showings. And so to be in this place of complete uncertainty, with all of that, of being mystified by what the Pacers are capable of and impressed, but also like, a little concerned for the Thunder coming out of Game six. I, I, I am flummoxed by this series. I am flummoxed by these teams. I am enjoying the hell out of the ride of it.
- [13:23]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, well, wise, look at the shape of Game six that we just saw where it's like Thunder came out strong. We're like, oh, this is it. This is where we get the final game. And then the Pacers storm back ever. Like, the Thunder got close in that second quarter and then the Pacers fucking hit the gas to the point where the Thunder couldn't even score to start the third quarter. Neither team could score to start the third quarter. Start the third quarter.
- [13:43]
Big Woz
But the Thunder 1 team was 22.
- [13:47]
Justin Barrier
That helps too. It's just like, even the, the rhythms of that game are unpredictable even when we're inside of it.
- [13:55]
Big Woz
Yeah, it's the Pacers ability to just inspire all like, I'm, I'm out of superlatives. They're tougher than everybody. They are, they're freaking endless reserve of mental toughness. They just out toughed out, like, efforted the, this OKC team who we like in game one, they turned these dudes over 30 times. They just out efforted that team in game six where they're, I think at one point in the third quarter, they had 20 more possessions than the Thunder did.
- [14:34]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. Ended up about that way, too.
- [14:36]
Big Woz
That's, that's insane. Like, they were just playing harder than everybody else. It just felt that way. And okc, again, like, they're not the ones in a do or die situation. Right. Like, it, it, it stands to reason. But to be honest, even when they went down early and I said this after we covered game five, I was like, yo, the Pacers came out like a team that didn't need to play stellar defense to win Game 6, that was not the case. Like even when they were limiting OKC to be like, all right, you're a normal offense. You're not just, you know, blowing us out the box with like transition and just great three point looks and all of this stuff. And yeah, just seeing the team, that's just tough, man. Just down the line, right down to Tony. Just freaking forearm shiver to Hartenstein. Like, bro, get out of here.
- [15:30]
Justin Barrier
Like the Jolly Green Giant.
- [15:32]
Big Woz
Yeah, that was like, this is a team that will not die. James Johnson finally gets in the.
- [15:38]
Rob Mahoney
And it's like, certainly does.
- [15:39]
Big Woz
All right, let's fight. Immediately. I'm like, bro, like, I love the attitude and the sort of, you know, intestinal makeup of this team, man.
- [15:52]
Rob Mahoney
I think what I'm going to remember from game six is that defense is this Pacers team coming in and just being a wrecking ball on that side of the floor. And to your point was about the effort and about the commitment to all that stuff. Tyrese Halliburton participating in that on one leg, flying around, getting steals. Like the Tyrese Halliburton steal into the no look into the Pascal Siakam hammer on Jada. Just, just one of the plays of the season and certainly of the finals and certainly of the playoffs. Like, what a fucking sequence.
- [16:21]
Big Woz
What a show move.
- [16:23]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. Did he have to do the no look is. Was my question. But does anyone ever even on his one leg had to add a little pizzazz. It almost felt like he was saying as he did that it's like razzle dazzle, you know. Well, we're kind of talking about Halliburton. I had this down at number three, but let's just like go there right now. It's. Is he hurt? Like on the. On the one hand he is hobbled and you could see it as he's moving around there. But was. I almost feel like the Pacers did such a good job not only of playing to that strength, because Halliburton at the top of the arc, being able to see the full court, playing the orchestra is so dangerous, even on one leg, but also Rick Carlisle working into different lineups, adding him with tj, kind of swapping them in, out more aggressively. It almost felt like he might still be hurt, but they could still find ways to make him effective.
- [17:10]
Big Woz
Yeah, to me, that's what makes you one of the best players in the world. Just because you're limited doesn't mean you can't make an impact. And to me, Halliburton all He had to do was be a threat to shoot. You know, you have to be able to get the defense to honor what you're doing out there to get them out of their shell and get your other guys going. The fact that he was aggressive, he missed a bunch early, but like OKCs, they have to respect him. When this guy takes a jump shot, you can't just be like, oh, I'm not going to contest. Oh, I'm not going to react to a head fake on that. Like, you have to react to a guy who's looking for a shot. And I thought he did a great job of that. And I think that's the difference between a great player and just a pretty decently good guy. Like, you know, Porter Jr. In the second round, he has one shoulder. He can't do anything. It is what it is. Like, even the little contributions that he's making, it's like, bro, like, it's Porter Jr. One arm. It is what it is. Halliburton on one leg because he is one of the best players in our league, a star player, he can find a way to still be impactful. And I thought he just showed himself to be like, of that caliber of player last night by doing it in a limited capacity.
- [18:19]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I think. I think guys like MPJ giving it their all in those circumstances is admirable. It's just not always effective. It's just too easy to cheat away from a guy like that. It's too easy to close the gap knowing that they're not going to drive or put the ball on the floor. Hal Burton did just enough of that stuff. And Justin, you. You isolated it too. Like, playing every one of his minutes with either McConnell or Nemhard on the floor with him alleviated so much of the ball handling pressure to the point where they don't have to go to him to force anything. Right? He can just be a conductor. He can just be a conduit. He can just be someone who's helping the offense to flow. And at the same time, you can see that he's not Tyrese Haliburton. Like, you can see that he's having to pick his spots, even within all of those protections and all those accommodations. I mean, they were just pounding the ball through TJ and them hard time and time and time again for exactly that reason, to the point that their usage basically flipped from what it usually is in the playoffs. You can get away with that because he's that kind of shooter like you talked about was you can get Away with that because he's the kind of guard who can play with other guards. And it's so funny to end up in that place after starting his career with de' Aaron Fox. And that was the question of, like, can these guys coexist as stars together on a high level team? And here's Tyrese Halliburton coexisting with T.J. mcConnell on a team that's one win away from the championship.
- [19:34]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, it almost feels like he leaned on some of his physical advantages there, where he was stabbing away at the ball because he is so long. And he did, for what it's worth, like, despite the fact that he couldn't move as fluidly as he could in the past, like, he was busting his ass defensively. And then on the flip side, you see what he can do with his vision, not only being so tall, but also just having that preternatural feel for the. Like that one early in the first quarter, like, swing pass across the court to Nemhar for the corner three. I was like, God damn, like, how many people are making that pass, let alone seeing that and let alone being able to execute. He was plus 25 in that first half alone on the Hobby leg. And then that's probably a good segue to go to question number two, because I have. Do you. Did you learn anything new from game six? And for me, I thought TJ and Obi Toppin have now solidified themselves as the not fucking around crew, where, yes, TJ is his own thing. Clearly he was. Has just been on another level the past, what, three games at this point. Almost like. Almost like Steve Nash dribbling in between defenders, like, snaring rebounds, almost like Nash used to. Which is obviously ironic because Halliburton and the Pacers overall have been getting the Nash comparisons. But, like, him plus Toppin gives them something that just almost like galvanizes their advantages, where it's like, off of the misses and the Thunder had a ton of them. Those guys are fucking moving. And so it's like, at a certain point wise, it almost feels like that second wave has become just as much of an advantage as their first unit, which has obviously impressed us this entire playoff.
- [21:14]
Big Woz
All I know is that Nikola Jokic, Jamal Murray, Anthony Edwards, fucking Julius Randle, all of these dudes had trouble getting to the paint, dribbling against this defense. Like, just a hard time finding their sort of airspace. TJ McConnell is just like, watch me work. Like, he does the Nash thing, the probe thing, but he's doing it for his own shot. He's literally doing it to just get eight feet away, to take a, get the smallest amount of space. Take a fade away. Eight footer and he's just cashing it, you know. And then sometimes when the ball gets swung to him on a rotation and he's at the three point line, like, oh God, it's a record scratch. And it's like, oh, they let the defense set, set up again. And it's like, oh, it doesn't matter. I record scratch this freaking possession by not letting the three fly. It doesn't matter. Still going to get to the rack. Still going to get to my shot. Still going to get to my spot. This shit defies logic that I've ever known about the NBA.
- [22:33]
Rob Mahoney
It's broken the series like straight up.
- [22:34]
Big Woz
They've tried everybody on him. Yeah, he's cooking every one on one matchup.
- [22:43]
Justin Barrier
You can't swipe away the ball when it's like a couple inches from the ground because he has such a low center of gravity. He's like weaving around these things like a freaking speed bike, dude.
- [22:52]
Big Woz
Wiggins. Wallace. Wallace. They're like, yo, no, Wallace, you're supposed to be our stopper.
- [22:58]
Rob Mahoney
In theory.
- [22:59]
Justin Barrier
No, McConnell stopped Wiggins on one play.
- [23:01]
Rob Mahoney
He swiped it away, completely stripped him. It's. I don't understand it. Like, we've been talking about TJ McConnell for so long as again, a hardworking player, a good backup, but there comes a point in every playoffs where it just doesn't work anymore. We just have not clearly reached that point in this run. And at this point in his career that just might be who he is. He's. He's a little harder to tamp down. And it's a combination of, yeah, all of that effort, all of those circle throughs that we're talking about, but also just like straight up knocking down essential nails. Mid range jumpers at a rate that every finals team in history has a guy who's doing that. Like there's. Behind every champion there is a Tristan.
- [23:39]
Big Woz
Thompson, mid ranges assassin.
- [23:42]
Justin Barrier
Completely JJ Barea flashback right now, straight up.
- [23:46]
Rob Mahoney
But look, the, ultimately the McConnell stuff has been discussed a lot. The Obi Toppins have, I don't think has been discussed enough. And as, as a longtime Obi Toppin guy myself, we're living, we're eating, we're pointing the finger at Tom Thibodeau saying, why weren't you playing this guy before he, before you let him go.
- [24:03]
Big Woz
But here's the thing though, Rob. I always liked Obi. Cause he played Hard and super athletic guy, and the skills seemed to be coming along. He did not play defense like this in New York.
- [24:15]
Rob Mahoney
He did not.
- [24:17]
Big Woz
He was a. Like, he sucked. He was terrible at defensive. I'm like, yo, I like Obi, but I understand why Tibbs is like, bro, if you're just going to be a freaking turnstile or you never give a decent contest at the cup, piss poor Reebok. Like, I'm sorry. Like, he was all real things.
- [24:34]
Rob Mahoney
See, all of that is real. But this is the reason why Tom Thibodeau teams historically don't have the preseason to postseason development story. Like, there's no guy that's like, oh, this guy popped in a way we didn't really expect. There's no one that he. And a lot of coaches are this way. Mike Michael Malone was like this.
- [24:50]
Big Woz
Yeah.
- [24:51]
Rob Mahoney
When they do, don't invest in those guys and give them the opportunity to earn minutes to play through some of those mistakes to earn your trust. Then this is. That's what you end up with, is an incredible athlete and really capable player sitting at the end of your bench. If you're the Indiana Pacers, you end up with the guy who is second on your team in the series in made threes, like, bombing away. It's him, him and Aaron Nesmith at the top of that list. He's tied with Tyrese Halliburton for made threes in the NBA Finals. Obi Toppin.
- [25:19]
Big Woz
I think the leading score on the team in the third quarter was like 10. Like, bro. Yeah, it's a joke. The, the, the level of collective greatness that is happening right now. It's almost like a cliche. But this is just. The sum is greater than the whole. Or is it the whole is greater than the sum. I don't. I never know what that one, but.
- [25:45]
Rob Mahoney
Like, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
- [25:47]
Big Woz
Okay, cool. There you go. This is the most cliche that I've ever seen of that. Like, ever seen of that term.
- [25:56]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, I think it was six players with eight points or more at halftime alone. And obviously Obi ended up, I think, the leading scorer in that game.
- [26:04]
Big Woz
The two big threes, the three point makes were from Obi and Nemhard. Again, these guys did not come into this league with three point reputations. When they let one fly. Now you expect it to go in.
- [26:18]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, we talked a lot about the offense, too, but obviously defensively defensive on another level. And it did seem like Rob, that the Pacers were being a little bit more concerted about Picking SGA up and like switching lower on the court. And obviously that feeds into the Thunder's biggest problem is when the shots aren't falling. Like trying to get into the paint has just been common mosh pit that SGA or anybody is struggling to navigate.
- [26:43]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, this is what I felt like I Learned in Game 6 was not just that the Pacers are a good defensive team. Like they can be a dominant defensive team. They can upend a game with their defense, which is not something you would necessarily guess based on their personnel, but it is that collectivism. It is having enough guys who are good at enough different things to make all that stuff work. You know, was you mentioned all the, all the teams and players who have struggled to score anything against that OKC defense over the course of these playoffs to get any kind of consistent rhythm. How many teams and defenders have we seen struggle to get anything going, slowing SGA down? And this, this is one of the first teams and first players in Andrew Nemhard to act, to actively do it. And I would say in this game in particular, completely threw Shay off balance. And I thought the doubles that they were throwing at Shea were really effective. Specifically like the blind side stuff when he would turn his back. And you saw Halliburton, you saw McConnell go in for those steals, really muck things up. Shea had eight turnovers, not just in this game, but in the first three quarters. Eight turnovers for Shay in the first three quarters, the Pacers had seven. Like that, to me is a lot of the game is he did not have control of the thing that he had to have control over. And that is true because the Pacers made it true.
- [27:51]
Big Woz
I think what you saw in game six against Shea is their fig. They're figuring out his timing, which has seemed like the most impossible thing to do in the league because it's so herky jerky, so offbeat. So just not similar to anybody else's. Where I feel like Nemhard is, even he's timing the Shea forearm shiver thing perfectly now where he knows where that bump is coming to create the space and he's still able to take it and close off the air in the distance that Shay usually is able to create with that move. It's kind of. I, I think that's what it is like when McConnell is coming over, timing the double perfectly. They're just better at timing Shay because it's been six freaking games now, you know, and these guys are all world elite defenders. Like Nemhard is an old world defender. Dude, he's one of the best in the league. He's shown it throughout this whole playoff run. Niece Smith, same thing he didn't get. He's fouled out of damn near like every single game except for Game 6. Game 6 is the first time he didn't have a crazy high foul game too. So yeah man, OKC playing with fire boy.
- [29:06]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, it's just easier to for nem hard to time things to face guard to be a little bit more narrow minded about guarding Shay when obviously you have other guys to come in and dig down and help out. And that's where the lack of three point shooting and like dropping back into the coverage and having more guys around you and the paint has just like helped to no end. It's like I look around there just seems like always a guy helping like within a foot, within a second distance and like it seems like it's compounding too because you also look at the struggles that they've had just finishing. Chet in particular just seemed like he was in a different headspace overall. But like there are two guys at the rim most of the time to the point where even when J Dub was scoring in game six, a lot of those were leaning away high bankers off the glass. It just seems like the Pacers, unless the Thunder forced them to prove it with their shooting. Like they're not going to give them that space and not going to give them that respect in the off season.
- [30:00]
Big Woz
Guys, Chet needs to put Miles Turner on his bullseye, on his dartboard or whatever. He has to put his face. Not Jokic, not Carl Towns, not Julius Randle, not none of the other elite bigs, not Anthony Davis. He needs to put Miles Turner on the dartboard because this guy is demolishing him.
- [30:25]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [30:26]
Big Woz
He cannot do anything offensively. Guys, if it's not a pull, if it's not a spot up or it's not an alley oop, it's done.
- [30:35]
Rob Mahoney
The problem is he also can't do anything against like Aaron Neesmith. He also can't do anything against some of the guards who get switched on him. At least this was the case in Game 6. He's had an up and down series offensively, some games much more effective than others. But in game six he looked lost. Like he just looked lost offensively. And I think that's a tribute to what you're talking about, Justin, in terms of cutting off that flow right when you cut off all the access to those shooters, when you have the Pacers defense playing the sort of shell that it is and rotating and flying around in the way that they are now. All of a sudden Chad doesn't get anything easy or anything he does get is rushed. Anything he does get is like, again, there's one more guy in his path than he might want or he had to take that first move so quickly or pick up his dribble so quickly. He's a little too far from the basket to finish on one of those kind of extending layups like we've seen him finish in these playoffs. I just think top to bottom, this is such a hard working defense and such a defense that's like locked in and on a string and all the things you want to see out of high level playoff defenses. But I. I just don't think we can say enough things about Andrew Nemhard and his specifically I think he phenomenal. He might just be the best like 3rd, 4th, 5th effort defender out there. Like the number of things he will do on a given possession to stay attached to SGA and then to continue to participate and continue to influence the play is really, really rare stuff. And something that honestly you don't even get from someone like Lou Dort sometimes or these other defenders who fly around, who try to sell calls on the screen, who you know, you'll see them hit the ground and in doing so take themselves out of a possession whether they get the call or not. Nemar just navigates everything. He stays connected to you all the time and he doesn't let you get any airspace no matter what you try to do. If you have one of those guys on your team, I think you're always pretty well positioned to at least kind of like stay intact on what. In what you're doing defensively.
- [32:20]
Big Woz
So last year, I think it was last year after Indy got eliminated. I remember Justin being like, well, Nemahar just had a fantastic postseason. I guess Matheran has like become superfluous. And I was like, you're insane. Are you crazy? Matheran is still the future. Have you seen this guy's potential and upside and blah blah, blah, blah, blah. Clearly I didn't know what the hell I was talking about.
- [32:44]
Justin Barrier
He had one game, this guy.
- [32:47]
Big Woz
I mean it's not a Matheran dig. It's just Nemhard is just amazing different. Yeah, he's amazing dude.
- [32:53]
Justin Barrier
Yeah.
- [32:54]
Rob Mahoney
Ben Matheran is like in the Ben Shepard category. It's like on some nights you need this kind of guy, on other nights you need that kind of guy. But like Andrew Nevard's an every night guy.
- [33:02]
Justin Barrier
Yes, but you're right though. It Is a lot of him waging psychological warfare with SGA because he doesn't have the prototypical length, which is why coming into the series are like, maybe Nemhardt. The. The record suggests he hadn't done well against Shai, but a lot of it is knowing his moves, knowing when to be forceful, knowing when to back away and put his hands behind his back because he knows Shay's going to draw a foul. And maybe that's another like. Like subtle little thing that the Pacers are gaining an edge over time because as they're having time to learn tendencies and play styles like Carlisle and those guys are almost like flipping things. That typically would be strengths into weaknesses. But you were talking about Chet there. So I do want to get to the next question. Which is what's the biggest tactical or strategic wrinkle you're watching for? And for me, I think the big one is just how much to go too big versus one big. It's kind of the big question that we've been cycling through this entire series. Double big started well, and overall in this finals, they're plus five in 19 minutes. 19 minutes. Obviously a pretty small sample size. The Caruso lineup. So just swapping Caruso in for Hartenstein, not as well. Minus 13, 50 minutes. The offensive rating is just putrid. It's 92.9. Some of that's just like funny money with. With minutes, you just go with the lineups that work. Obviously, they think the Caruso lineup will work better and with the matchup. But I don't know what you do here, Rob. Like, do you have an inkling? Do you think they'll go back to starting single big and, like, let Chet just roam? Or do you think they're going to start too big just because it started so well in this game?
- [34:30]
Rob Mahoney
I feel like when push comes to shove, Mark Dagnall goes to Caruso and he takes Hartenstein out of there. And you saw. You saw it in the second half when they were trying to close the gap. That's how they started the second half. It did not really work, as you alluded to. That lineup has not really worked on balance in the series. Like, again, with some of that fluky data accounted for, it just has not sung in the way that you would expect it to sing at the same time. All like, all that is true, and that's kind of their natural inclination for the thunder. I feel like that's the way they lean. But if you're gonna play Chad and Hartenstein together, and I think there should be a There should be room in Game 7 for some of that. How much you want to do it kind of depends on your taste. I think they should play together some. Playing together with the other starters is the best version of that. And in a way, that almost makes me a little nervous moving it around. So, like, I personally, I think I would start Crusoe, but I would feel a little nervous about it. I kind of think that Thunder will start Caruso. I. I think this might be the time where they tip that balance. Even though on paper the success has not been there in this series, but theoretically, that is the lineup that they seem to trust the most.
- [35:34]
Big Woz
Yeah, I'm. I'm not convinced of the smallness of the lineups being the key here. Um, I don't think they should go super small with J Dub. I think that is a bad idea to me. I guess that's like a. That's like a thing they haven't tried. It's like, all right, let's go Super Small, Super 5 out, Super Athletic and rangy, and see what we could do with that. I just think Indy's big guys are physical. I like, I just don't think you should do that. To me, the strategy is like, just go old school. Bill Parcells football. Bob Knight, take care of the ball, clean your glass, get back on defense. That's it. And then, shit, man, I got the mvp. I know. They got another great creator in J Dub. I'll win this thing in the mud. I'll find a way offensively to win this in the mud. But in terms of, like, the rest of it, bro, you have to rebound, you have to get back, you have to take care of the rock. Like, that's, to me, is the ultimate to this game 7. If you are just throwing the ball everywhere, if you're getting bludgeoned on the boards because you want to get cute with the sizes of your lineup, you're not getting back with the paces and the insane pace and running up and down the court. You're done. You're not winning game seven. So to me, those are the things they need to be concentrated on, like, get dirty.
- [36:58]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. I think whatever decisions they make tactically, strategically, they are toward that end. It's like, how do you maximize all out effort for the entirety of game seven? Whatever you have to do to make that possible. And granted the finish line is right there. You got to get through one game. And so my question is always, like, how are these teams able to best empty the clip? Like, how do you want to distribute all that. How do you want to stretch Both these teams are still playing, like, nine and ten deep. Do we see any of those role players excised out for the sake of maxing out other stars? Does someone like Pascal Siakam, who has barely guarded J Dub in this series until the beginning of Game six, in which I thought he had, like, a really good state, like, statement opening in terms of his defense on J Dub? Is that something we could see for the entire second half of Game seven? Or at least like a crucial fourth quarter of Game seven? Like, that's a lot to put on Pascal for a whole series, but this is it. Like, you just got to get through this last stretch. Maybe he has that in him. I think the Thunder starting question factors into this as well. I also think it's just a function of, like, how does OKC get back to ratcheting up the defensive pressure that they need to survive? They had four steals in Game six. The Thunder did. That's not a winning recipe. It's their lowest in any playoff game. It's one of their lowest of the entire season. Basically, any game in which they have around that many steals, even a couple more, they lose. Like, it's just not something that they are fundamentally able to compensate for. And so how do you ratchet up the pressure? How do you amplify that? How do you avoid some of the early fouls? I also think TJ McConnell was a huge part of that because he had these guys on their heels. And it's so hard to play good, uptight pressure defense when you're backpedaling, because TJ Is coming down at you full court every single time. Like, they have to find ways to slow them at the early stages of transition in order to not just be behind the eight ball throughout the entire thing. And so there's a lot of ways in which I think both these teams are going to be trying to compensate for all of that effort, all of that marginal stuff, all that chaos that's going to decide a Game seven. And a lot of it is, like, how do you make sure that your guys in minute 47 are as fresh or as capable as they can possibly be?
- [38:59]
Justin Barrier
I think Game six is the blueprint for that reason. Like, you want to get the turnovers in order to spark their offense, and everything kind of flows from there. And for that reason, Rob, I agree with you. I think Caruso is the move, if only to get that flowing, because you need that sort of spark defensively to spark your offense. Because I think a lot a Lot of the time, I'm wondering where the threes are coming from. And for that reason, we would be like, oh, go smaller. Get more shooters on the court. But as we've seen, that's not necessarily the recipe there. And so for a lot of, like, the. Oh, make this tweak. Put this guy in over that guy in, I'm kind of left being like, well, the Thunder shoot better at home than they do on the road. And maybe at a certain point, you just trust that home court advantage wise, is an actual advantage to that point. Like, it's. It's 40% for the thunder at home. It's like 30 on the road. It's clearly something going on.
- [39:45]
Big Woz
The Caruso and Dort, you just gotta trust that they're gonna make. To me, you gotta roll with those guys more so than the Wallaces and Isaiah Jones. I mean, he's still picking splinters out his ass right now. Like, that dude cannot get off the bench. I think you gotta lean towards those guys and just bet that they're gonna make big shots in big moments in the biggest game of their lives. Right? Cause to me, the second they start going with offensive focused groups, they start getting beat up. These guys, like, the defense immediately starts to suffer. And so I don't think you can even play around with that shit. Like, we're gonna. We're going to guard. Our responsibility is to keep the pacers in the half court, make them be individually great in the half court and live with our consequences after that, especially on the offensive end.
- [40:44]
Rob Mahoney
Go ahead.
- [40:45]
Justin Barrier
Oh, can I throw out a bold idea here, please? We're in the coaching meeting right now. We're just throwing things against the wall. Would you consider starting TJ next to Halliburton, considering how well it worked? Or is it like something's going so well so far? Why? Why?
- [40:59]
Big Woz
I'm not taking Nemhard out of my.
- [41:01]
Rob Mahoney
That's the thing. If Nemhard had been bad, I would say maybe.
- [41:04]
Big Woz
But he's so good that he's playing alone. I can't take him out of my game. I can't.
- [41:09]
Rob Mahoney
Like, Nemhardt's shooting has come and gone, and he hasn't always had a huge offensive impact in this series, in part because. Go ahead.
- [41:16]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. Can I give you a number for that?
- [41:18]
Rob Mahoney
Please do.
- [41:18]
Justin Barrier
Talking about home road splits is clearly something I had in the back pocket here. Nemhardt, he's hit three threes on, I think 11 shots. No, excuse me. 12 shots on the road, six for 11 at home.
- [41:31]
Rob Mahoney
Amazing shooter, completely Believe. I believe it of a lot of the Pacers guys, right, And a lot of the Thunderbolt players, as was alluded to. Like, there's guys who are hitting good percentages on balance in this series, in part because they're hitting all their shots at home, like they're just making up for it in one spot versus the other. But Nemhard's defense, I don't think you can replicate with tj. And so you could talk about starting all three of those guys together. That might leave you a little small. Ultimately, I think the balance of having two of those three on the floor at basically all times gives you the ball handling you need, gives you the energy you need, helps keep the turnovers down. Like, I. I really think that was such an important part of that formula, is like, having the extra ball handler on the floor at all times really works out, to say nothing of Pascal Siakam and how he's basically another point guard out there in his own right. I would keep TJ on the bench, let him just absolutely cook whenever he comes in second units. And he's been coming in a little bit earlier as the series has kind of worn on and they're trying to stretch out his minutes. But it. It says a lot that TJ's played well enough. You have to think about it, like, you do have to throw it out in the coaches meeting just to say, like, should we at least talk about this?
- [42:35]
Justin Barrier
All right, so number five, I have on the. On the board here, which guy is the guy who's going to be the guy that we're talking about after this game? It could be an X factor guy. It could be the guy, but which guy is the guy Wise when we're breaking this down on Monday, I keep.
- [42:49]
Big Woz
Saying his name is Nemhard, and particularly on offense, it's not just that he's scoring, but if he's getting downhill because he's the guy outside of Siakam, that gets downhill. Obviously TJ does too, with that group, but amongst the starters, like, he's going to be playing with Halliburton a lot if he's getting downhill. Another thing that he did, he's drawing fouls, which in turn does what? It just softens the defense up. It opens it up, gives you more oxygen to deal with. And I think it's gotta be his on the dribble, get to the rack, get fouls on Lou Dorsey. You gotta calm down with all the fouling that he's already doing. And same with Caruso. To me, that's what's gonna, like, open it up and make it feel like, all right, now we on even footing with these guys because they have to honor our drive game. And at a certain point, even Miles Turner, who can't hit the broadside of a barn, you can't just leave him wide open above the break or not. Like, you gotta honor this dude's jump shot. And so I think he's gotta be the pressure release valve for the offense, man. He's gotta be the one getting to the cup with the starters.
- [44:02]
Rob Mahoney
I have a pick on the Thunder side, and it's in part because I have no idea how this is going to go. Lou Dort. Okay, I. I just have burned in my memory. Game 7, Lou Dort against the Rockets in 2020, bombs away for 30 points, hitting every three. And it's like he has that in him in games like this. He also has in him, I would say, in game six, like, a quick trigger mentality with his three that can be actively disruptive. And that's right, again, this is a guy who's made his threes on balance in the series, but can be disruptive to the offense because he's that confident.
- [44:39]
Big Woz
The game seven, you got Shay Gilgis and J Dub on your team and you're taking. Lou Dort's taking threes with 18 seconds to go on the clock.
- [44:49]
Rob Mahoney
See, you say that, but then he's going to go for 26 in game seven and win. Like, this is. This is the give and take. And here's what I come back to with Lou Dort is like, the more limited that Tyrese Halliburton is in this series, the less useful that Lou Dort is. Like, his primary value is slowing down someone like Tyrese Haliburton from being Tyrese Haliburton. And if Tyrese is a decoy, if he's running interference, if he's more of a spot up shooter than he is a driver of the offense, then what do you do with Ludor? Do you start moving him around and having him guard other people?
- [45:20]
Justin Barrier
That's what I was wondering in the game as Halliburton was clearly hobbled, I was like, they're going to just stick to their primary coverage. And even J Dub mentioned it in the Lisa Salters interview. I think going into the second quarter, it's like, you know, we're going to just treat him as if he isn't hurt. We don't know what's going on. We just have to approach it like that. And so there is a Certain, like, fog of war happening here, though. But, like, now we have two games of data and we'll see now because game seven is what, like 95 games or 95 days away. And so time to, like, go into the hospital and just go and have all the IVs and whatnot.
- [45:51]
Big Woz
They go shoot them up with all kinds of ibuprofen.
- [45:54]
Justin Barrier
Boy. That's right. I agree with Rob. Like, do we have to start thinking about utilizing and leveraging Dort's effectiveness in different ways?
- [46:03]
Rob Mahoney
You definitely could. Did. Did y' all see the Halliburton walk off interview where he's talking about how his girlfriend was hounding him that before they put on the next episode of Love island, he has to do treatment on his calf?
- [46:15]
Justin Barrier
You watch Love Island?
- [46:16]
Rob Mahoney
I do not personally. Are you locked in?
- [46:18]
Big Woz
Oh, I'm not.
- [46:20]
Justin Barrier
I was actually going to do a watch along series. So stay. Stay tuned. Watch for the space. I also saw that Halliburton's dad was wearing the jeans with all the NBA patches on there.
- [46:31]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [46:32]
Justin Barrier
Woz, did you ever have those?
- [46:34]
Big Woz
No. No, I did not. But they were. They were all over my freaking neighborhood, I tell you that much.
- [46:40]
Justin Barrier
Goddamn right. So I went a little bit bigger with the. With the guy here. I went with Pascal Siakam, just because I think there's no possible way he won't have, at the very least a Siakam type of impact. I think there is a good chance, as he did, as we've seen, like, throughout the playoffs, like, he might be the guy in this. He might be the swing guy. But the steadiness of this dude, like, as Halliburton has fluctuated and like, there's actually been some good data floating around about how Halliburn, yes, injury notwithstanding, is prone to fluctuate more than other stars. There is a whole. Derek Thompson put out the call and then Owen Phillips, the stats guy, showed like, the. Oh, based on standard deviation, he. He can go based on per. Will fluctuate a little more than your average superstar, which fits what we know about him. Watched him this entire year. But Siakam just like out there keeping the backbeat. Like, he's ringo, you know, 19, 15, 21, 20, 28 and 16 last game just because he played so few minutes. But, like, this guy's just going to give you a baseline of like 15, 8 and 6, and you're just going to kind of go along with it.
- [47:45]
Rob Mahoney
So he's Ringo. Tyrese is definitely Paul. I don't think there's any question about it. But the thing about the Pacers is they don't have it. They don't have a John. I don't think they don't have anyone. He's not cantankerous enough is the problem. Maybe, maybe Rick Carlisle is their John. Maybe that's why it works.
- [48:01]
Big Woz
Definitely their John. And I'm going to say Tanker is boy.
- [48:06]
Rob Mahoney
I'm going to say Nemhard is the George. I feel like he might be establishing himself as the George.
- [48:11]
Justin Barrier
George was my guy. I was a George guy.
- [48:13]
Rob Mahoney
I'm a rising George. I was a childhood Paul. But I find myself cresting into George as I get older and he's already got the language.
- [48:20]
Big Woz
Yakim2 in my mind's eye, it's like pretty much 80% of the thunder guys, they end up putting on him. When he catches the ball at like 14ft, it feels like the Thunder end up panicking, you know what I mean? Like that and that again, similar to what Nemhard has to do. Like that's how their offense engine gets to going because instead of staying in their base defense and be like, no, we're going to cheat a little bit but always get back on our shoes. Like, no, we got to over commit to this guy because Lou Dort cannot guard him for real. You know, Caruso can't really guard this guy. And so yeah, I think Siakam is, you know, he's as great a pick as anybody to have an explosive game.
- [49:04]
Rob Mahoney
Pascal is amazing. Just has turned into an amazing all around player. He is metronomic in that way that he will be a stabilizing force whether the Pacers win or lose. I also think if the Thunder do win, we're going to be talking a lot about Chet. I think it, I think they kind of need him to have a Chet sized impact on game seven. If they're going to have it in hand, if they're going to take control of that game. Like they might be, they might still be able to like equal one out. That's really close. Just with Shay and J Dub and the defense and shooters all clicking. But if they're going to be in control of game seven, I think Chet is a big part of it.
- [49:37]
Justin Barrier
Speaking of off the court clips, did you guys see the one of Siakam tapping into some spiritual underworld? Yeah. Or the Undertaker.
- [49:45]
Big Woz
It was a seance.
- [49:46]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I see I do that before every pod. Do you guys not do that?
- [49:50]
Justin Barrier
No wonder you've been so steady for us throughout the season.
- [49:53]
Rob Mahoney
Thank you.
- [49:54]
Justin Barrier
Well, this kind of goes hand in Hand with the finals MVP conversation, which we should do a little tracking of just before we go into the big game. This next team probably decides it. Let's just be honest. Whoever has the biggest game will most likely get the votes. But if we were to give odds based off of what might happen or just where we are right now, let's take the Pacers. First and foremost is Siakam. Like, odds on, like, does he have the higher odds just because he's been so consistent and productive or do the high highs of Halliburton maybe like, cancel that out?
- [50:23]
Big Woz
I think it's got to be Siakam, honestly, like for the same logic that he won the Eastern Conference mvp. He's just been the most consistently excellent Pacer. Um, he hasn't had a 0 for 8 game or whatever. Like, like he's just straight up been consistently great and there's just no way this guy goes out and goes 2 for 13 on Sunday. It's not going to happen. Like he's going to have a good ass game. And that will be seven games in a row where this guy was steady and contributing in a major, in a major way. So to me, like, Shay is number one with a bullet because I don't think he has any peers on his team for the mvp, to be honest with you. But yeah, Siakam to me gotta be the second most likely.
- [51:10]
Rob Mahoney
I think especially when you factor in what it would take for the Pacers to win game seven. It's probably going to take a big Siakam game just because Halliburton is in the state that we've already described where he's, I'm sure going to contribute. I would expect him to still have a nice game, but maybe not a dominant star level game because his calf won't allow him to have that. And so if we want to take games one through six, I agree with you Wise, that Siakam's been really steady. I also think like Halliburton was better in games one and two. I think Siakam has been better in games five and six. And I think three and four were kind of a wash in terms of like they were both some ups, some downs. So to this point it's probably closer to 50, 50. But realistically projecting game seven, I think it's probably something closer to 60, 40 Siakam.
- [51:51]
Justin Barrier
That makes sense. And on the Thunder side, Rob, do you agree that it's SGA and everybody else?
- [51:56]
Rob Mahoney
I think it's like 90% SGA. Not because Jada wouldn't Deserve it or. There's not an argument to be made. I just think the idea that a guy averaging 30 in the Finals for a team that wins would not get Finals MVP would be incomprehensible. It's just not going to happen.
- [52:12]
Justin Barrier
The Pippin Buzz isn't convincing. You guys direct Pippin comparisons pretty much across the board.
- [52:19]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, they've been out there. JDF's been really, really good. And for what it's worth, I think, like, better at his job in Game six than Shea was at his job in Game six. And it's. It's certainly not outside the realm of possibility that JW could have another monster closing effort in Game seven. I just think, like, overall, the body of work in terms of the raw stats will be overpowering in terms of like a, you know, whatever it is, a seven or a nine person panel on media row.
- [52:46]
Justin Barrier
What about the guy with the luchador mask with, like, the Hammer, do you think?
- [52:49]
Rob Mahoney
I didn't see that guy.
- [52:51]
Big Woz
He's got no shirt on.
- [52:52]
Justin Barrier
He's the sixth man.
- [52:53]
Big Woz
He's big as hell. He's got a gut and a half. Boy, what's.
- [52:57]
Rob Mahoney
What's the deal with the Hammer?
- [52:59]
Justin Barrier
I don't know, man. This is thunder.
- [53:01]
Big Woz
Like we're Thor.
- [53:02]
Rob Mahoney
Okay, okay. That's a Mjolnir vibes.
- [53:06]
Justin Barrier
I have no idea what you're talking about.
- [53:07]
Rob Mahoney
All right?
- [53:08]
Justin Barrier
I. I don't even think I saw any of those. Apparently, you're. You're deep in the weeds. You're deep, deep in the game tape.
- [53:14]
Rob Mahoney
It's true.
- [53:16]
Justin Barrier
All right, number seven predictions. What do you got?
- [53:21]
Big Woz
I gotta say, just. It just feels like there's some magic alchemy happening with this Pacers team.
- [53:28]
Rob Mahoney
I like it.
- [53:29]
Big Woz
Like, every time we think this team is going to go down, they just straight up don't. And there's just something. There's just something in the air with this team, man. Like there's just something historic that's happening. It feels like it's happening. Where again? I'm talking about in 20 years, we're gonna be trying to explain this shit to people and we're not going to have adequate answers. Like, there's just something happening with them, man. This is almost like when the freaking US Hockey team beat the Soviets. This is what it feels like with the Pacers, man. So to me, I'm picking the Pacers in game seven. The. Yes, sir.
- [54:18]
Justin Barrier
Do you believe in miracles, Rob?
- [54:21]
Rob Mahoney
I. Here's the thing. I am Fox Mulder. I want to believe in miracles. You know, I really would love exactly that outcome. And if the Pacers do win, I think it would just be just a phenomenal sports story and literally a one of one moment. Watching basketball in my lifetime, I just can't quite get there. I think I have too much respect for the Thunder. I have too much respect for who they are at home. I think it's going to be hard fought, it's going to be close as game sevens often are, like we talked about. But I think the Thunder have will have a slight, slight, slight edge. You know, I'm thinking like a five point game. I really don't see it stretching out much more than that because I think the Pacers will be there at every turn. They are unkillable. They're the best comeback team in playoff history. They literally cannot be written out. And as loathe as I am to do it, I got to pick somebody. And I see the 68 win team with the great defense that has performed well at home all throughout these playoffs and the reigning MVP sitting right there. And I don't want to write them off either. So what is a guy to do but to pick the Thunder by a.
- [55:17]
Justin Barrier
Slight margin, that's what I have as well. If only because it has borne out that home court advantage actually matters in the series to a pretty good deal.
- [55:25]
Big Woz
Matters a lot.
- [55:26]
Justin Barrier
Both of the crowds have been electric. Like I feel like a certain way watching those crowds from afar, which is a real credit to the fans and the local fans like just showing up there. The team just play a little bit different. They shoot a little bit better when they're at home. Role players play a little bit better at home. All of those truisms, all those cliches are like coming to bear. And so for that reason I have to imagine that the Thunder, who have only lost those two games once again by just last second buckets, are not going to lose another one at home. So I would pick the Thunder as well. But I think we're in for a good one because As I mentioned, nine game sevens in NBA Finals history, the average margin of victory, 6.7 repeating, baby. So when you cut off the 15 point margin from 1974, it's actually much closer than that last one was 4 then 7. 476396. Like these games are good games.
- [56:20]
Rob Mahoney
So we are in for something also historically ugliest shit. I look forward to seeing if that if that trend continues. Because the Pacers have a way of making ugly games ugly.
- [56:29]
Big Woz
Yes, nasty. And you know, Lou Dort's first three is definitely going to careen over the backboard for sure.
- [56:36]
Justin Barrier
6. I should mention of the nine teams that played in those games, the home team won those games. So favors the home team, as you might expect. All right, before we get out of here, do you guys want to talk a little Lakers?
- [56:48]
Big Woz
Yeah.
- [56:48]
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- [57:45]
Justin Barrier
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- [59:56]
Big Woz
I wish I could get involved in that kind of bidding. I wish I had the connects at the United Arab Emirates to do something like that soon? Well, no, I say that because Walter's hedge fund, his private equity group, whatever we're calling the money that formed to buy this team got a sizable investment from the Emiratis. Right.
- [60:24]
Rob Mahoney
They're not allowed to own teams. But a minor investment in another group.
- [60:28]
Justin Barrier
Shell corporation into owning, yeah, whatever, succession very quickly.
- [60:33]
Big Woz
Whatever, whatever. $10 billion, that's big. I just, you know, didn't know the Lakers were for sale. But at the same time there's been these whispers that they're going to eventually sell for a while because not to get all up in a business, but Dr. Buss had six kids. They're all equal partners in ownership of the Lakers and none of them, you know, have ever started their own successful business outside of that. Their income, their own pile. Yeah, the Los Angeles Lakers. And guess what? If you I did the quick napkin math in order to turn the Walters Group from 25 to 85% owners, that's 60% at a valuation of 10 billion. Six kids each get a billion dollars.
- [61:30]
Rob Mahoney
Not bad.
- [61:31]
Justin Barrier
Good work.
- [61:31]
Rob Mahoney
If you can get it. Owning the Lakers, you can get it.
- [61:35]
Big Woz
And so yeah, it's not surprising when you think about the circumstances of the ownership. One of the last family run businesses that's out there, Minnesota just sold. I guess the Pacers is still a family run operation, but again it's not a lot of them out there. Dolan, I mean he got it from his dad but like that's not really a mom and pop anymore. But the Lakers, yeah, they're one of the last of the Mohicans, man. The classic wacky NBA ownership groups. And it's definitely an end of an era.
- [62:09]
Justin Barrier
Can we talk about that? Because I have found myself a little wistful for Kirby of bygone. Yeah.
- [62:16]
Big Woz
In our profession, we should be.
- [62:18]
Justin Barrier
It almost feels like was. You could probably speak to this better than we can. Like, soccer underwent a pretty revolution. Underwent a revolution recently where it's a bunch of like, outside money and sovereign wealth funds.
- [62:28]
Big Woz
Yep.
- [62:29]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. It won't get to that point. And the CBA has moved to a point where they're trying to suppress a team coming in and spending in the way that the Dodgers have in order to create advantage with pure cash. On the other hand, like, it does feel like everything's getting a little bit more efficient and all of the character in the league has been kind of leveled out. And I always say, like, I'd rather bad character than no character. And it almost feels like that's kind of what we're moving toward.
- [62:53]
Rob Mahoney
You're saying more sterlings?
- [62:55]
Justin Barrier
Sure.
- [62:56]
Big Woz
I mean, maybe not of that hue, but.
- [63:01]
Justin Barrier
But a little like freakiness, you know.
- [63:03]
Big Woz
A little like, maybe not.
- [63:04]
Justin Barrier
A child made some weird decision because their dad just happened to have money and all of a sudden they're running this team. And what's.
- [63:10]
Big Woz
I'm a fan of the New York Jets. Woody Johnson, son, he was down on a trade that the jets were looking at making because the player that the jets were receiving didn't have a cool enough Madden rating. He told his father not to trade for a guy based on the guy's rating in a video. That's a thing.
- [63:29]
Rob Mahoney
Did it work?
- [63:30]
Big Woz
Freaking happen. No, it didn't work. It's the freaking Jets. Nothing works. But look. And look, we don't need to get too tawdry here. But like, Jeanie Buss, the owner of the team, was dating the head coach.
- [63:44]
Rob Mahoney
True.
- [63:45]
Big Woz
I don't think that's going to happen with the Walters group.
- [63:47]
Rob Mahoney
Different times. Different times.
- [63:50]
Big Woz
That's just not going to happen. Like that kind of thing. Linda Rambis, y' all. Every time some important decision had to happen for the Lakers, we had to do reporting and digging about where Linda Rambis head was.
- [64:05]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [64:05]
Big Woz
In all of this. And Kurt Rambis, one of the worst coaches in NBA history. Okay. Like, this is what the Lakers provided for us. The magic in Rob Pelinka soap opera. Like, we're talking about, like, generational news. NBA fodder for so long. It's Just not going to be the case with these freaking private equity dudes. It's going to be hyper competence, which I think Laker fans should be happy about. People in our profession ain't nothing interesting coming out of the Lakers ever again.
- [64:40]
Rob Mahoney
I think the best thing a team owner can be is mostly invisible and pays a lot of money and facilitates a well run organization. I think the second best thing a team owner can be is entertaining in the way you're describing. Because unfortunately most owners don't want to be in the first category. They want to be very visible. They want to understandably flaunt their power and influence. They want to run the damn thing that they paid for, which I get. But if you're going to run the damn thing and then not be entertaining.
- [65:06]
Big Woz
While you're doing it, I. Matt Ishby is pretty entertaining.
- [65:09]
Rob Mahoney
He certainly is.
- [65:10]
Big Woz
He said every team in the league would trade places with the Phoenix Suns.
- [65:14]
Rob Mahoney
I think he said all but two, you know, so it's. The jury is out.
- [65:18]
Justin Barrier
The flip side of this is Ballmer, who just keeps funneling money into the project and like building out the staff so that they're so comprehensive that they could only be so bad. We expected the Clippers to basically fall flat on the place this year.
- [65:31]
Big Woz
It's amazing.
- [65:31]
Justin Barrier
Just work the margins in ways that a team of that caliber that is getting the caliber of stars in the building shouldn't be able to do typically. So I think, I think, I think.
- [65:41]
Rob Mahoney
He is as much in like the first category. Just like again, pumps all that money in, has clearly lifted the bottom on who the Clippers are. We'll see with the Lakers. I suspect they're going to fall into that category. I did think it was fascinating that Ramona Shelburne reported that this is not explicitly not a Mark Cuban style situation in which Genie Buss supposedly will have some kind of like actual written. At least that's. That's kind of the implication of that team. We'll see how that works over time. We've seen a lot of written arrangements.
- [66:09]
Big Woz
Why do we do this sideways with this? Why do we do this with these owners and their fucking egos? You don't get to take $6 billion and run the team like it doesn't work like that. You might get to run the team after the man handed you a $6 billion check.
- [66:24]
Rob Mahoney
So the question is, is that true today or is that true over a transition period of a couple of years?
- [66:30]
Big Woz
It probably means Rob Pelinka has a job for at least a year.
- [66:35]
Rob Mahoney
He traded For Luka Doncic, he should be the executive of the year.
- [66:38]
Big Woz
Nico Harrison traded for Luka Doncic.
- [66:40]
Rob Mahoney
They should be co executives of the year.
- [66:41]
Big Woz
But let's, let's, you know, whatever. I think yeah, these are the ways that it's going to matter in the sense that the Lakers have a skeleton scouting department and the scouts that they do have amongst the lowest paid in the league. Same with front office, same with head coach. Although J.J. i think did get a decent amount of check. But you know, Darvin Ham and all these other guys came in because they didn't want to pay Ty Freakin Lou a champion. So bare bones departments in front office, scouting, player development, you name it. What we call the infrastructure of NBA teams, that's done. They're going to blow that out and they're going to pay to get the best people in town. Because guess what, not only do I pay you, you get to live in Los Angeles. You know, like if there's a guy in Milwaukee or freaking Memphis or wherever Cleveland that I want to get like that I want to jailbreak out of there. It's like, yeah, no, no, no. Not only are we bringing you to the Lakers glamour franchise, glamour city, we gonna pay your ass too. Like that is a huge advantage and is not subject to the draconian cap rules that govern roster management. And so I think that stuff is where you're going to see the biggest difference made. But the CBA has made it such that they can't come in and just completely just start spending like pirates.
- [68:11]
Rob Mahoney
Sure.
- [68:12]
Big Woz
And get it. But like you said, Justin, I think the Clippers are a beautiful sort of benchmark where it's like they can only be so trash. They're going to be in it no matter what.
- [68:22]
Justin Barrier
Yes.
- [68:22]
Rob Mahoney
Well, just Justin, with the blank check, like how much to bring you back? How much to make you the new gym bus?
- [68:28]
Justin Barrier
Not as much as you think.
- [68:30]
Rob Mahoney
Let's put that out there to the Lakers. It's within your power to do. Bring Justin Barrier back.
- [68:35]
Justin Barrier
I have heard. I was just reading an LA Times story about how the community gardens are like the prices has skyrocketed there.
- [68:41]
Big Woz
Wow, community gardens.
- [68:43]
Justin Barrier
It's a garden everyone can use. So it's just a plot of land and like I could live here and like down the road there's.
- [68:49]
Big Woz
Okay, gotcha.
- [68:49]
Justin Barrier
I could rent basically. Apparently it just like skyrocketed. Just taking in the hands out of just the normal folk and give them to the rich. As long as I have the, like the, the bank to do that. As long As I have my contract as a bonus. Happy to do.
- [69:04]
Rob Mahoney
I think the Lakers can do that also.
- [69:06]
Big Woz
One thing needs to be said. Jeannie Buss and her brothers, kooky ass owners. There's just no two ways about it. But under Dr. Buss and his family stewardship, five Magic Rings, three Kobe and Shaq, two Kobe and Powell and Lamar LeBron and them. That's 11 rings since 1980. That's fucking amazing. Like what these guys have done for Lakers fans in the city of Los Angeles. That family since their stewardship of the team is unrivaled, man. Like, they deserve. They deserve love credit for making this Laker brand into what it is, which is just one of the biggest, best, most iconic sports brands in the world. We're talking about the Yankees, Real Madrid, the Dallas Cowboys, the fucking Lakers. Like, that's what it is. It's crazy. And they deserve a lot of love for that. Built it up to be 10 billion smackaroos, boy.
- [70:08]
Justin Barrier
If you want to learn all about.
- [70:09]
Big Woz
It's a lot of matcha teas out here, y' all telling y' all, man.
- [70:13]
Justin Barrier
If you want to learn about it. There are 90 documentaries that have been published within, like, the last four years, all of which include Jeannie Buss on camera or as an executive producer behind the scenes. So, yeah, there's ways to make money off Genie Buss with the basketballs.
- [70:30]
Big Woz
Just iconic, iconicness coming out of this franchise.
- [70:34]
Rob Mahoney
What about that Kate Hudson show? Did anybody check that out?
- [70:36]
Big Woz
Still haven't watched it?
- [70:37]
Justin Barrier
I did not.
- [70:38]
Rob Mahoney
Maybe that'll be an off season project now that we're sunsetting the Genie Bus era. We got to get into the ephemeral.
- [70:44]
Justin Barrier
That wasn't explicitly Lakers, though, right? It was like Dolphins or something.
- [70:48]
Rob Mahoney
It doesn't have the official branding, but it's. It is. I think it's not.
- [70:53]
Big Woz
Not. The Lakers hosted the freaking premiere party.
- [70:56]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, she executive produced the show.
- [70:58]
Big Woz
Yes. Lakers thing.
- [71:01]
Justin Barrier
Yeah. What?
- [71:02]
Rob Mahoney
I just want the level of wealth and fame and power in which I can executive produce a series about my life and cast the equivalent of Kate Hudson to play me. You know, I think that we're all aspiring to that level.
- [71:14]
Justin Barrier
Dancing.
- [71:15]
Big Woz
Idris, come on down.
- [71:18]
Justin Barrier
You're inviting the question, though. Like, who plays you?
- [71:20]
Rob Mahoney
I don't know. This is. This is not for me to answer. We gotta do a wide cast.
- [71:24]
Big Woz
Oh, you know who plays Rob?
- [71:26]
Rob Mahoney
Who's that?
- [71:27]
Big Woz
The blonde dude that did the rom com with Sydney Sweeney.
- [71:30]
Rob Mahoney
Glenn Powell. I'll fucking take that. Let's go.
- [71:35]
Big Woz
Glenn Powell playing you, bro. Come on Justin.
- [71:40]
Rob Mahoney
I'll take. You know what? I'll take Paul Dano, too. Maybe it's a. Maybe it's a. What is the. What's the Bob Dylan movie? I'm not there.
- [71:50]
Big Woz
I'm not here. Buff is gonna play Justin. That's. That's. Who's gonna play Justin, Bro.
- [71:56]
Rob Mahoney
Just.
- [71:57]
Big Woz
Bro. Just angry. Just. Just flying off the handle at all points.
- [72:04]
Justin Barrier
For good reasons, though, right? Of course. Fully justified, I have to say, since we're an hour into this podcast. Max Struss, I saw him, like, I got served him his, like, Instagram in my algorithm because clearly I've been looking up enough stuff or we've been talking about him enough that the robots think I'm interested. I think part of the headband might be. Because that line is drifting backwards.
- [72:29]
Big Woz
Tough. He's got to get the turkey asap.
- [72:32]
Justin Barrier
Yeah, I gotta say, like, there's a lot going on with me as I. As I age, but that line is Chris.
- [72:37]
Rob Mahoney
It's rock solid.
- [72:38]
Justin Barrier
Put it that way. Tell. Tell the Bachelorette that is Chris. All right, why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. We'll be back on Monday in order to recap this exciting, thrilling game seven. We hope so. We'll talk to you then on Monday. See you soon.