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The Ringer NBA Show
Tatum’s East-altering Return, the Spurs’ Warp-speed Come-up, and a Trail Blazers Bonanza, With Jared Weiss and Tom Haberstroh | Group Chat
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- [00:00]
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- [00:39]
Tom Haberstroh
I'm not an astronaut.
- [00:40]
Justin Varior
I don't need an astronaut.
- [00:42]
Tom Haberstroh
Audiences have spoken.
- [00:44]
Justin Varior
Project Hail Mary is an awe inspiring masterpiece. So I met an alien. If you've fallen out of love with
- [00:52]
Jared Weiss
going to the movies, this one will bring you back. Ryan gosling in the first must see movie of 2026. Project Hail Mary, rated PG13, may be
- [01:06]
Justin Varior
inappropriate for children under 13.
- [01:07]
Jared Weiss
Only in theaters March 20.
- [01:24]
Justin Varior
Hello and welcome to Chat. I am Justin Varior and for now at least that's it. No Rob, no J. Kyle Mann on this episode. They'll probably be back on Thursday. But today is JV Day. That's right. What is JV Day? We're not actually sure. In fact we were kind of thinking about options in order to fill this space because as you guys know, I probably don't talk as much as my other co hosts. So I really wanted to take advantage of the opportunity. I think some of the original conceits were for me to just go full cowherd. Don't think I could probably fill that amount of time, honestly. Even in this intro, a little bit of a stretch for me to be honest. I think there was like also some talk of maybe do like a whole smoke and stack like JV Justin thing that didn't quite totally understand but might have been a cool concept especially for our sinners fans. I was also thinking about doing just a flip full blown conversation with someone who's like a master gardener in order to just really let it fly there. Unfortunately, I don't really know any of those and I think the complications of trying to book someone probably would have taken a little bit longer than the weekend we were afforded. But on that note, I actually do have a little bit of a listener male on this point who's probably thinking around the same thing. I have an Instagram DM from Travis. Hey Travis. He writes. Hey Justin, big fan of the pod. Like you, I'm a soy boy liberal who's trying to reclaim his masculinity through learning trades and doing DIY midlife. Interesting. Travis wouldn't necessarily say that's how I would frame it, but I appreciate it. He goes on to say, it's been fun, but low key hard. Lol. Garage gym now. Looks fucking sick though. Hell yeah, brother. Good luck on the bathroom. Saw this and thought you'd get a kick out of it.
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Tom Haberstroh
And.
- [03:13]
Justin Varior
And he sent me a video of the John Bernthal podcast, which I believe is called Real Ones, ironically Enough with Shia LaBeouf. And it's Shia LaBeouf talking about how much he likes Home Depot to the point where he thinks that is going like the job he wants for the rest of his career. Something really sexy about working at Home Depot, you know, my head goes there before it goes to like, let me go work on some movie where I'm playing a Romanian vampire lawyer. You know what I mean? You think you could work at Home Depot? You think you have this, but you think. Think you understand the inventory of Home Depot. I spend so much time in Home Depot, dog. Yeah, that's a church for me. Home Depot.
- [03:49]
Jared Weiss
Are you building a lot?
- [03:50]
Justin Varior
Are you working with your hands? I'm in Home Depot all the time. Okay, so you feel like I love Home Depot. I wouldn't say the LaBeouf comp is like a good one to have these days, but I have to say I did see myself in that. So I appreciate it, Travis. I appreciated that you saw me in that and that other people are getting along with the gardening thing. But we'll probably do that maybe in a different episode if we could ever figure it out. Or maybe just leave it for the Patreon as an exclusive or for my future as a home improvement blogger. We could do that as well. But no, on today's episode, we instead have decided to do a little for you and a little for me. Up first we're going to talk to Jared Weiss of the Athletic who now covers the spurs but used to cover the Celtics for a very long time. So we talked Tatum's return, what the implications on Tatum's return to the Celtics are and the rest of the Eastern Conference going forward. And and then we bring in my friend Tom Haberstrough from my ESPN days. Know Tom for probably over a decade at this point. He is now, in addition to his other jobs, one of the go tos on the Blazer local broadcast. I bring stats and everything on a little cool little pop up box on most games. So we talked to Tom in depth for almost an hour, actually. About the Portland Trailblazers Scooter. What the future of the young guys is. All that stuff. So little for you, little for me. And that's today's episode. So why don't we take a quick break and when we come back we'll talk to Jared up top and then get to Tom. This episode is brought to you by Tommy Hilfiger. Here's what happens when west coast relaxation meets modern prep in Tommy Hilfiger's spring collection. Think light wash denim and new relaxed silhouettes paired with oversized trenches and chore coats with heritage inspired touches. Then take those rugby and polo shir you love and elevate them with rich cable textures and new Tommy crests. And when you throw in easy breezy light layers and linen essentials, you've got laid back sophistication. Explore more@tommy.com all right, this episode is
- [05:53]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
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- [06:21]
Jared Weiss
Somewhere out there is a Chevy truck and the person who drives it, well, that's a Chevy person. You probably know one, your buddy, your sister, ones who always show up. They're the first to rise, the last to leave. They always have that little extra something and maybe you've got it too. Chevrolet together. Let's drive. Visit chevy.com trucks to explore the lineup.
- [06:48]
Justin Varior
Joining me now, Jared Weiss. You probably know him from the Athletic. I like to think of him more as the Jane Goodall of the the Jackals or maybe the Walter Conrite. What, what would you say is the best, the best comparison there, Jared?
- [07:02]
Jared Weiss
Jake Goodall is the one that I've always subscribed to. You know, that's obviously the. Not the first time I've heard that and that's not an insane comparison. So that. That. I think that sounds about right.
- [07:11]
Justin Varior
Okay, beautiful. So I want to get to the spurs later on because probably one of the more interesting teams in the league in the past couple years, if not in the past decade, maybe even. But like we got to start with Jason Tatum, his return. You've been in Boston previously. You're with the spurs now, but you've been covering that team for a while. You were There the other night when Tatum made his return, what was that? Just, like, considering Boston's relationship with him, kind of all the anticipation there, like, what was the room like when you were in there?
- [07:41]
Jared Weiss
I didn't realize the NBA Finals could happen in. Was that March? We're in March, right? March. It was. It was one of those kind of environments. It was. It was a familiar feeling in Boston because it's happened a few times in the last few years. But you walk into the arena and everyone is giddy, and there's this intense energy, and everyone's like, this is it. This is it, this is it. Like, kind of that kind of vibe. And then when he came out there, it was this. There was a surrealness to seeing a guy that I had just seen, like, 10 months earlier writhing in pain. It looked like everything was done. The depression and fear that hung over that night was just so palpable. And to see it all coming back together this quickly, and then not only is it just like that he's back, but, like, he's back and he looks good, and the team looks like they're ready to take a step forward and really be one of these championship front runners. So he just completely changed the entire direction of the franchise with this. Or I guess the direction was already stabilized, but now he's, like, re. Catapulted them back into the front of the conversation in the championship race and in a way that we just did not think was going to be possible when the injury happens.
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Justin Varior
Yeah, I definitely want to get into that and just kind of where the east stacks up overall at this point. I'm curious. Kind of just like the relationship with Boston and Tatum, because from the outside, I think, like, the general perception is like, oh, this guy's kind of corny, but also so good. He's almost, like, unimpeachable to a certain extent, but it's kind of like a tacit, just like, acceptance of him as this very good player, as a personality. Take it or leave it. What is it like in Boston? And I guess. Do you think that kind of led to the charge in the room? Just. What was that on Friday?
- [09:25]
Jared Weiss
Yeah. You know, your friends never find you as corny as your enemies, so it's not. It's not surprising to hear that. I think every once in a while he does something a little corny, that people can be like, all right, like, you know, the Kobe text message post and all that kind of stuff. But I do think that a lot of that whole perception of him being corny is really just like when it's your people, you look at that as endearing and when it's not your people, a lot of the time you look at that level of is it authenticity or is it an attempt at authenticity? I'm not really sure. Or is it the fact that you're trying to be vulnerable in a forum where it feels inauthentic makes it feel unauthentic? I don't really know. But people adore him in Boston, the guy. For whatever criticisms you might have of the guy, he is one of the best players in the game. He is a, like he's a true well rounded player. And what was so interesting about his ascension is that it came at a time where there were a lot like most of the players that dominated were very unique players or very unicorn like guys. And he was for a little while there like the only top level superstar that was like truly a kind of prototypical well rounded player where it's like he was just very good at everything. And it wasn't like Steph being a lead at one thing or Jokic being, I mean he's a lead at many things, but he's a very different player. Giannis very different player. And so jt, for a little while there was the textbook prototype basketball player rather than some sort of unique, interesting player. Not interesting, but so unique that he became excellent. And so because of that, I think a lot of people on the outside probably saw it as boring while in Boston because we're watching him grow constantly and very persistently throughout his career. He was still looked at as a marvel and is still looked at as a marvel because everybody saw him come to the league as a kind of poor man's Carmelo Anthony, where he was an elite mid range shooter and he loved taking turnaround jumpers from 18ft. And the question was, could he ever be a three point shooter to becoming one of the best three point shooters in the game, where he's probably the most feared wing shooter in the NBA and like kind of. And he didn't rewrite the way that wing ball is played, but he's probably like the most advanced heir apparent to Kevin Durant's evolution of the way that the wing position can be played that we've seen like since KD's prime. And so Tatum I think is very probably boring and typical to a lot of people on the outside world. But in Boston he, he was like everything that they hoped he would be. And he was the foundation of one of the most successful franchise runs that we've had in the last 25 years, even though they've only won one title so far. All of Tatum's career they have been at the conference finals. There's been one year where they weren't in the conference finals where they got their asses kicked by, I think it was Durant and the Nets in the first round. And then last year where they were probably going to lose that series anyway, even if he didn't get hurt.
- [12:23]
Tom Haberstroh
So.
- [12:23]
Jared Weiss
But who knows because he was having the best game of his entire career when he got hurt. So like Tatum has been remarkably consistent and successful throughout his career. And so it makes him coming back this quickly and this effectively from an Achilles injury, like kind of not shocking, as shocking as it may appear to be.
- [12:41]
Justin Varior
Yeah, sort of. That kind of uniqueness was on display in that first game and definitely in the second game as well too. I think if you were to look at the box score and be like, oh, he started. What was it like 0 for 6 or whatever it'd be like, I think a lot of people would have pause for wonder if this was going to take longer. But underneath that, just the impact immediately, despite the fact that he wasn't scoring, I thought was already a great sign before he got the dunk. And then the scoring came along later, the size was just apparent. I mean they basically been playing with, with JB as a four and playing more spread out and that's worked to them to, to a large degree. But just like the size just compounding with K's size and just overall length there, it was just like it seemed like the type of versatility that sparked them on the run in previous years. And also probably like if you're looking the East, I just don't know who can match the type of shooting size combination that the Celtics have. But also the playmaking, like the passing was there immediately and you saw how like you have all these shooters around and all of a sudden everything starts to work in concert a little bit more seamlessly than it had in years in games past. And so I just like from a starting point, just having that on the court was going to be important. Then obviously against the Cavs, he, he hit another level as a scorer. Got us some post ups and whatnot. Just overall with the Celtics, obviously this is going to be huge. Like did you expect him to be this good this quickly considering just the comeback? I know you talked to like his trainers and a bunch of other people behind the scenes about sort of his recovery? Like, is everyone as shocked as I am right now that, like, 10 months, he's already doing stuff like this, you
- [14:16]
Jared Weiss
know, no, they're not as shocked. And he's got. I mean, he's got some of the best. He's got a great team around him as far as, like, his personal staff. And obviously the Celtics team is pretty great. They're always going to be like, we always believed and stuff like that. But no, when you walk, when. And he finally walks out there for the real thing, you don't know. And frankly, that first half in that his return game went as poorly as possible from an offensive standpoint, right? Like, he was a mess defensively. He couldn't get off the ground. Like, he went to contest shots like he usually does, and his hand couldn't even, like, reach up to contest. So he looked. He looked like crap in the first half, but he was at least out there trying, which was like, all right, this is going to come around eventually. He's going to be fine. Eventually it turned out he just needed halftime to figure that out. And then in the second half, he looked great, and then he looks really good in this game. I think the thing that is surprising to me is the Celtics have put him in. Back in his kind of playmaking role straight away. And a lot of people were asking me, like, is how is this going to work with Jaylen Brown and all that? And I was like, well, he's going to take much more of a backseat. So far, he hasn't really, and we'll see how that balance works because there's been a lot of times when he's out there and JB is just watching from the corner and he's not really getting involved. And I think that that's probably mostly that they're just trying to work JT back in. And I think that this will kind of normalize back towards Jalen doing a lot more of the primary creation. But the reps are working. Like, Tatum is looking more and more comfortable as a pick and roll playmaker. And we're. We're actually seeing that with Keita, like, rolling really hard to the rim, which they haven't had a, like a real top level rim roller on their team this entire time. Like, Pozingus didn't do a ton of hard rolling. Cornet's like a good roller, but, like, K is like a monster rolling to the rim. That's kind of his, like, this one, like, thing that he does really well offensively. And we were seeing, like, Tatum's focus has really been on just really slipping, like, nice little pocket passes to him, and it was working very effectively. So Keita taking so much of that gravity off of Tatum's plate so he can get downhill is proving to be really effective, and it's making Tatum's life easier. And so he's finding lots of ways to get involved running point that I think is taking a lot of the pressure off of him to beat guys off the dribble, which is probably the main thing that he's going to struggle with.
- [16:36]
Justin Varior
Early on, yeah, he had one pass against the Cavs where he was, like, buried underneath the basket. There was, like, two defenders just draped on him, and somehow underneath the basket, like, kicked it out to Hauser, like, behind his back, but also to the side, to the side, into the short corner. And it was just on a string, on a dime. Like, I don't know how he got it out there to begin with. I think Hauser actually ended up missing it. But just like, the fact that, like, he has that already in his back pocket is just. Is something. But I want to talk about Brown because I think the, like, the cheesy, like, first take, ish way of describing this is like, whose team is it? Are they going to jostle for power that way? I think that's a weird framing, but ultimately, I think there is a good question baked in there somewhere. And I think part of it is because of how Brown has been so successful this season, not only because he stepped into the forefront, but because of how he's been successful. He's just been, like, one of the best shot makers in the NBA. And I do think he's playing with a level of comfort, in part because he's able to play through a lot of those misses that are just intrinsic to being that type of player. And I think that's, like, part of, like, his secret sauce. And I do wonder how that is going to work, sharing a little bit more with Tatum. Is he not going to be able, like, do the. The moments where he's not hitting shots, do those stand out?
- [17:50]
Tom Haberstroh
Because they have.
- [17:51]
Justin Varior
At times they haven't been super loud, but they've been there. I'm curious just overall, how you think about that, how that's going to match. If you picked up anything about how those guys are and just, I mean, backstory about their relationship overall.
- [18:02]
Jared Weiss
Well, I mean, it's inherent to having Tatum back, is that Jalen's going to have less shots, right? And Tatum's going to take more, and maybe Tatum's going to aggregate a lot of those shots that were going to some of the other support guys, maybe it's going to come out of, you know, Pritchard and White's pool. I'm sure Jalen will probably get to 20ish shots a game. It's just not going to be 23 shots a game necessarily.
- [18:22]
Justin Varior
And.
- [18:22]
Jared Weiss
And so the sacrifice probably won't be that big for Jalen. I mean, the big thing, though, is that Jalen has been running good offense this year and has been a much better playmaker. And the playmaking gravity of the team has fit around the way he operates because he hits different spots at different cadences on the floor than Tatum does. And I think maybe a little part of the challenge for Jalen over the years has just been that the spacing was generally set up to fit Tatum a little bit more than was set up to fit him. Where Tatum, he operates from the high slots, and he likes to pull up from, like, the elbow, and he's able to kind of get downhill, and he'll like when he gets. When Tatum gets downhill, his strides are longer than Brown's, so he's like. It's like two dribbles to the nail, and he's got a shoulder into a guy, and then he's either going to snake his way around to the rim or. Or he's going to make an early kick out. While Jalen kind of likes to work his way in a little bit more methodically. He might even rise up, like, at, like, in the paint and then make a jump pass of someone. So, you know, Tatum, I think, is a little bit more direct, downhill more quickly, and it opens up kind of. It's a little bit more traditional, while Jalen's a lot more of, like, unique, maybe a little bit more, like, artistic, jazzy type of driver. And so the way the guys have to, like, collapse around him, space around him is a little different. So I do wonder if it's going to affect his play, playmaking rhythm, just because if Tatum's out there, they might not be, you know, spacing and timing their cuts and all that kind of stuff in the same way, but they're good. They're. They're a really good team. Like, we. We can overthink this a lot. They're probably going to be the best team in the East. With the way that Tatum is playing, they are probably the favorites make the Finals. We. We can. We can't overthink this. It is a podcast. We got some time, but I don't. As much as we like, as much time as we can focus on, like, what are the ways that this could not work? It's probably mostly one of the ways that this could work. And there's a lot.
- [20:20]
Justin Varior
Yeah, I liked in the Cavs game too. When the Cavs started to come back in that one, they immediately went to Jalen just as like a pull up too. It was like Jalen just like ice this quickly and that's what happened. And then in the next possession I noticed they went to Tatum on a post up on a smaller defender and it was just like it didn't work. But those are the type of solves I think they have. I mean if the dynastic warriors need KD to go and get them a bucket, I think Jaylen Brown can probably serve the not in like the complete one to one comp, but probably in a similar role where it's like break this off and actually go and solve this situation for us and then we'll get back to the beautiful flow. But I think you're right. I mean, I'm looking at the standings right now. They're only down two games on Detroit. Detroit, who's an absolute mess right now, lost the past four. And just like probably a lot of the concerns about the offense starting to come to bear with that team. The Knicks, as we're recording this on Monday morning, had the McHale zero point game, which was funny. Just it seems like every time you get a hold of of the Knicks, they completely go the opposite direction. And then the Cavs obviously, I mean, still dealing with injuries. Allen wasn't there. I still have hope for them probably being the biggest competition for the Celtics. But man, I just look at the Celtics roster and I think like, oh, they have a lot of these shooters who in the right situation, a team that was fully loaded could really take advantage of. Right. If we're matchup hunting as we've seen in previous playoffs, like there are some guys to go at. But I look at the East, I'm like, where are those going to come from? Maybe full scale Cleveland and. But like it just doesn't seem like they might be ready for it if they can't get everybody healthy. And then there are obvious concerns about like how Allen and Mobley played together. Cause they haven't been playing a lot together as well. So I just see this the open road for the Celtics. Are you feeling the same, like, does it feel like Celtics unless something like catastrophic happens?
- [22:04]
Jared Weiss
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, who knows what happens if they go up against Detroit. Detroit's defense just overwhelms them and the the difference in competition between what Tatum is facing right now, but he will face in the postseason is pretty drastic. Like, some of those, some of those plays, at least in the, in the game that I was at against Dallas, like, they, they were just letting him waltz into the paint and that stuff's not happening in the, in the post season. So I, I, I do think that Tatum is probably going to struggle early in, like, whatever their first round series is, because the point of attack, defense is just going to be so much more physical on him. He's going to have trouble creating separation, and the defensive responsibilities are going to be bigger. Like, he's, we're watching him play defense and he's like, communication wise and positionally not really having much trouble. But he also has, like, been able to kind of hang out and play the baseline. And, you know, that's, that's, I was writing before he came back. Like, I think that's a much easier role for him to be that low man who just your job is. I'm kind of floating around on the weak side. I'm not actively engaged in chasing down all these actions, and then I just kind of have to make the decision of, do I go to the rim or do I chase the corner? And especially as someone whose calf muscles are very weak right now compared to where they usually are, so your reaction timing isn't as good. And of course, when you're trying to protect an Achilles injury, you don't want to have a sudden reaction where you're pushing off your heel, because that's where you heard it, right? When you're not, your, your legs are not engage, your sequencing of protecting your, of, like engaging all your muscles is off, and then you overstrain something and boom, you get hurt doing that. When you're in that, like, off ball position is easier because you're not reacting quite as quickly. You have a little bit more leeway in your reaction timing. And so putting him on the ball, he's just, he's not going to be as effective. And he's, when he's guarding up, you know, guarding up in space, guarding through actions, it's going to be harder for him in the postseason. Teams are probably going to find ways to force him into it. Now, so far, they've just been kind of like having him play zone. When someone that he's guarding down low moves up, they try to kind of switch it and all that kind of stuff. But defenses in the postseason will find ways to take advantage of that. They will, you know, get shooters involved and Then they'll give them little screens so that they get wide open, catch and shoot, stuff like that. It's going to be a lot harder for him. But just the fact that we're seeing a lot of his skill set is present and working, I think that right there makes him really effective. And that makes the Celtics good enough that they should be. They'll probably be the best team in the east by the time the playoffs come around.
- [24:33]
Justin Varior
Yeah, I never thought to myself, like, I hope Nicola Vuch, like, I need Nicola Vucevic to be there, but the broken finger does feel like it could have an impact, too, because then you start getting into the Garza minutes. And then also in a playoff series, like, I would like the option of having to go Tatum at center, maybe play a little small ball out there. You do have the abundance of wings in order to do that. Do that. But, like, as you're saying, like, can you trust Tatum to be as spry as necessary to go, like, close on the weak side, to be guarding up in the way that he did in playoffs Pass. But I guess it's nice to have a top five player in the mix. And I'm of course talking about Derek White.
- [25:07]
Jared Weiss
Of course.
- [25:09]
Justin Varior
All right, let's talk about an actual top five player. Because your new job is. You're based in San Antonio. I assume that wasn't to hang out with Luke Cornett a little bit more and just work on your personal blogs together.
- [25:22]
Jared Weiss
People keep making that joke. The only reason I'm here is to hang out with Luke Cornette. There's no other reason to be in San Antonio. There's nothing else. What else is going on besides the Lou Cornett blogosphere?
- [25:31]
Justin Varior
I definitely want to talk about that, but we should probably kick it off by talking about Wemby, who seems to have hit another. Another leap. Like, I just. I'm amazed that he keeps finding this, not only just, like, in his career trajectory, but in the midst of a season. I felt like before he got the blood clot, he was already kind of taking a leap within that season last year. And this year just feels like over the past couple games, he's managed to impact games without like, ever needing to do one specific thing. He actually had a quote about that last night. I'm sure you were there for it. Just. Just feels like whatever you need him to do, he's able to feel. Does it feel like that, too? Like, from when you started on the beat this season to where he is now, does he feel like at a different level?
- [26:13]
Jared Weiss
He's gotten dramatically better over the course of the season. I. I'm. I'm having trouble remembering, like, a top five player in the league improving this much over the course of one season. And a lot. A lot of it is just that he's cut down on mistakes pretty dramatically. Like, he was making lots and lots of mistakes on both ends of the floor early in the season, or maybe he wasn't even making mistakes, but he was trying to test out what he could do. And, like, a good example of that is we're seeing him doing a lot of kind of. He's baiting people into taking shots that he can block. And I think that he probably early in the season was testing out, like, how much can I pretend like, I'm not paying attention to, then go up and block the shot, and he would miss a lot of the time, and they would score over him. And now he's getting a little. Like, he's not turning around all the way and then trying to spin around and block the shot. He's just kind of, like, looking in one direction, knowing a shot's coming, and then being ready to smack it out of the stands, which is what he did. He did that to Tari Eason so badly in the Houston game that Tari Eason's mom said that he swatted my baby shit back to Africa. So, like, there's, like, he. He is. He is catching. He's catching people off guard, I think, a little bit more effectively now. You. And of course, there's lots of guys like Reed shepherd scored over him in that game. Like, lots of guys are finding ways to get over him, but Wemby just stays in the fight over and over. And his. His usage does not get counted in the box score, so his usage rate isn't as high as it really is in reality. This guy, every possession on both ends of the floor runs through him. And his usage is really as high as Jokic and Shay. It's probably right there when you factor in how much he's involved with every single play on both ends of the floor. And now he's, like, pretty consistent and pretty reliable. He's not dribbling his way into really tight spots. Like, I asked Mitch Johnson about that after that Houston game, just about how, when. When Wemby would push the ball in transition after getting a rebound in the first half of the season, most of the time, it ended up with him just tripping and turning the ball over. And now he's good at pushing tempo, and you'll see him coordinating the action while he's on the move and putting guys in their spots and he's able to find advantages he wants to target and then he's more methodical about how he works those advantages. And so we're just seeing he's no longer rushing. And also things are slowing down for him. So it's not only is his read of the game is slowing down, he's also slowing down enough to be able to catch up to his read speed. And so, you know, I, the whole time, like when I arrived in San Antonio, I was like, we need to be looking at Jokic as the template for how we evaluate this guy's skill set. He can, he's not going to be that level of passer probably, but also he's so tall that he can make a lot of passes that look really impressive from Jokic look relatively easy for him. And so he's not going to be Jokic, his level of playmaker, but he's going to work the court in a similar manner to the way Jokic does. And I think we're starting to see that now where he can really now that he's more consistently hitting his position in the post and the team is getting better at getting him the ball in the post, he's able to work the ball out of those spaces so much more effectively. Whether it's like he's taking better angles on his drives now so that instead of having to take fall away shots that he misses half the time, he's able to kind of dribble all the way around Amend Thompson that he still gets to a finger roll even though he's literally falling towards the bench like stuff like that. His just his understanding of how to use the floor and his pace and control of how to use the floor has gotten so much better since we were back in like November. And that's why, you know, right now he's playing like an mvp. He hasn't been for a lot of the season, so I don't know if he'll be able to get the award, which I'm sure we'll get into. But regardless of whether he wins MVP this year, I think he's entering the playoffs playing at that level, which is what's giving San Antonio so much momentum.
- [30:00]
Justin Varior
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned Jokic because he was here in Portland a couple days ago and I forgot because I haven't been around Wemby. I don't think I've seen a wimy game live thus far. But when you're around these like, one of one guys, the MVP guys, like, everything on the floor, like, you feel it whenever they have the ball, whenever they don't have a ball. There's just, like, an aura, as the kids are saying these days, to the way they're playing. Does it feel like that with Wemby where, like, every time everything is kind of, like, zoned in on him? Like, can you, like, I do think a telltale sign of an MVP and MVP season is, like, you can feel it when you're in the building. Like, does it feel like that for Wemby these days?
- [30:36]
Jared Weiss
Easily. Easily. I mean, the big thing with Victor, besides, like, his presence is so looming, besides that everybody flocks to watch him warm up. Like, his warmups, besides Steph Curry are, like, the most watched in the league at this point. I'm sure with Victor, the big thing with him is that a lot of, like, a lot of his points come from him just swooping in and cleaning stuff up. Like, it's not. A lot of it is not designed for him the way it is for a lot of other players. It's a lot of the time, like, they're just running a play, and then Steph Castle's like, oh, I see Victor's head over the trees. I'm just going to throw the ball up to the rim and he's going to do it or he's going to clean something up. Like Victor right now, honestly, a lot of his output is mostly just, like, garbage stuff rather than. It is, like, actual plan stuff, which means that as he gets better and they can plan more and more for him, that's when he's going to start scoring 30 a night, and the numbers are really going to get crazy. And so, you know, with him, all the things on the MVP smell test, you pick up that stench. Like, the pheromones are just, like, wafting up into your brain cavity. With him, like, it's all there. It's all there for him. It's just a matter of, like, the aggregate output over the season is the only. That's the only thing behind him. But I think we have seen since the start of the new year, and he started to, like, now that he's. Once he came back and he started to find his rhythm again and he was back in the starting lineup, there were a few of those games where he was having a few huge output games. You're like, all right, it's starting to come back, but now we're just seeing it. He isn't screwing up nearly as much. And the team just looks so much more comfortable in its identity. They're playing from ahead almost every single night. And so we don't see them have to overcome adversity, which is, I think, where you see the big moments that really make superstars, where you're like, wow, look at them carry these comebacks. But then, like, you had that Clipper game the other night against Kawhi where Kawhi was destroying them. And I remember I was watching that because it was right after the Tatum game. So I was watching it from the press room in Boston, and I was like, oh, they're down 20. I guess they're probably going to win this game, it looks like. And it was like, it took, like, five minutes into the fourth quarter for them to flip that score. Like, it was. That's what's so amazing about Wemby is, like, when he takes over the game, it happens so fast, you cannot catch up. It's just like, it's lightning quick. It's. He, like. He's like, all right, I'm going to take over. 10 points happens out of nowhere. 3 blocks, happens out of nowhere. And the runs that this team goes on are just so overwhelming because of him.
- [33:01]
Justin Varior
Glad you mentioned that. Clippers game. So the fact that he was kind of emotional after the fact because of the game was so intense. I think it caught me by surprise because, like, overall, he seems pretty stately. Like, I watch a lot of the press conferences. I'll watch him do clips and all this other stuff. Feels like he is incredibly measured for his age, and also almost, like, stately in, like, a senatorial way. Like he has his shit together. I think. I think everyone can see that he was very much built for this moment, not only athletically but also as a personality. But to see him, like, kind of crack like that was, I thought, like, a more revealing moment than we're typically used to. Is like, is his competitiveness just like, on Kobe levels? Because, I mean, we could get into the Jackal stuff or whatever, but it seems like he does care about, like, the entire product, and, like, the entire thing is just like, what is he like in terms of, like, I guess, as a person and also as a
- [33:51]
Jared Weiss
competitor in this instance, he's such a. He's such an enigma because, for one, you. You have to frame everything for Victor. And through the lens of. He has been. He has not been able to hide from his celebrity and. And just like, how. How. How much he fills a room, he hasn't been able to hide from that forever. No matter where he goes, he is gigantic. Everyone knows that he is someone. Everyone's paying attention to him. And so a lot of celebrities recede, and they push the spotlight away and they push the public away because it's overwhelming. It's very overwhelming these days, especially with the Internet. No matter. You could be sitting at home and people are still talking about you everywhere, incessantly. You can't avoid it these days. And so that causes a lot of cynicism. And with him, he has found this interesting balance where he composes himself with this level of introversion or quietness. He's very quiet with the way he composes himself. He is very isolating inherently, and he seems to really value isolation. But then he lets out those moments of passion where you see that Kobe within him because he is one of the most competitive players. He's so competitive. He fixed the All Star Game, right? We now have a few of these moments we can point to to be like, that's where he's different. It's not like he's more competitive than other guys. He probably is in a lot of ways, but most of these guys that are great players in the league, they get to that level of competitiveness. I think with him, he channels his emotions and regulates his emotions so intensely through meditation, through different types of physical practices, through the way he just conducts himself on a daily basis. He doesn't speak a lot of words. He's very careful and restrictive with how much he even wants to talk throughout the day, in my experience with him. And so it results in the energy that he has on the court. It results in the way that he gets kind of nasty at times, he gets kind of hostile with people at times. He, I think, channels all that energy so that he can be a ruthless competitor out there. And that's why he's been good. Like the. The best players, they want to. Like, they want to kill you at all times, and they want. And it channels into the way that they work every single day, how they work when they're away from the court. And that's part of what makes them great. And so Wemby, like, he's great because he's gigantic, and he's pushed himself mentally and physically his entire life to get to where he is, to get to a place where no other player of his size has ever gotten to. He's able to do that not just because of his physical gifts, but because of the way that he's designed his entire existence and it carries throughout his existence. And so I think because of that because he's someone that channels his energies very specifically. It does result sometimes in those kind of moments. And it's been interesting seeing more and more and more this season. He has these moments where he's walking off the court and he's screaming his head off. Like he, he really, really brings it out. And I mean, honestly, I was around Jason Tatum his entire career and Jason Tatum is actually very similar. He's someone that has a similar reputation. He's similarly introverted who then lets it out when he's on the court every once in a while. I think the difference with Victor is Victor seems to like some of the kind of classic pickup style, I'm going at you, I want to bite your head off kind of thing. We're seeing it with Chet. He just loves humiliating Chet for some reason. You know, some of these games that comes out, sometimes he stirs some shit up. There's been a few, like, near fights with him, even like it happens with him. And so. But throughout it all, he's wanted to bring the sense of community, like he does, I think, understand his role in something bigger. And he's always talked about himself as being a part of something bigger. And even though, like when I asked him the other night about how Jaylen Brown said that like, Jaylen is the best two way human being alive, but Wemby's an alien, so he doesn't even count. He's in a different level. Wemby was like, that's nice, but really the MVP is the representation of that sentiment that I really care about. And so there is still this, like, I think, I mean, as time has gone on, Victor's been more and more this season. Like, you know, I do want the MVP like that. I actually do want that. And so you're seeing him like he's. I think he's been finding his sense of ego and how to utilize his sense of ego and understanding it more and more this year. Because this is the, the first time where he's actually been really good and the team is winning at the same time where I think he's starting to see, like, I actually am going to be, maybe I'll be the best player in the world. Maybe I'll be there in a few months, who knows? And so his understanding of self and the way that he's representing himself, I think we're seeing evolve as this year goes on too. And so it'd be interesting if you asked me that question two months from now, how the answer is going to be.
- [38:40]
Justin Varior
So it seems like he's willing to entertain the MVP conversation, perhaps because he thinks he's worthy of it. Does. Does that seem accurate?
- [38:49]
Jared Weiss
I think so. I think so. I think that he's done enough in his team's success. Like, they've won 15 of their last 16 games. You know, like, that's. That it's gotten. They've gotten really good, and it's. It's. They're now beating enough really good teams that it's like, this isn't just that they had a really nice little stretch of the schedule and they got healthy. Like, no, they're. They're playing like a juggernaut right now. And I think that the results have become undeniable, to the point that he's feeling a little bit comfortable being like, this is something I do want. And he never. He doesn't try to force it. Like, every time he's been asked about the face of the league, he keeps going. That'll be determined on the court. I'm not going to force it. I'm not going to say that I am that guy. Everyone else can say that for me, and everyone else is saying it for him. And so I think he knows he doesn't have to. He doesn't have to advocate for himself. He knows that the work is being done for him on his behalf, and he's putting out the work on the floor, and the work advocates for him.
- [39:46]
Justin Varior
We got to talk about the Jackals before we talk about the spurs and Harper and all the other good stuff happening here. Why? How. It's just so odd, I will say, because we've seen in the NBA people having, like, their own fan section. I remember Andrew Bogut doing this in Milwaukee. I remember Omayor's block party in New Orleans. I used to sit by when I was there as a beat writer, so this happens. But the fact that he seems so passionate about this, it's like basketball, what he's reading. And the Jackals, I think, has just been a little surprising. What's. What's up with the Jackals?
- [40:24]
Jared Weiss
They're so. They're kind of unprecedented. And this is what's so interesting about them, is there's been other, like, you know, block parties that players have had that most of those were. They were done with some intention, but they were there as a. Like, just. This is a section where our fans are going to go have fun, and that's that. The Jackals have evolved, and they continue to evolve as the season goes on. They're even, actually, I was told recently they're going to expand it by another section. They're going to add another section to the left.
- [40:53]
Justin Varior
So they're, they're annexing sections.
- [40:56]
Jared Weiss
Their hope was to expand all the way up and down. They're actually continuing to annex. So next season they're going to get bigger. That's their plan at this point. So Victor, he did the tryout thing, which had been done before. The thing he did that was so unique was he studied the tape. He literally went and did film study on all the auditions, selected his captains himself. He FaceTimed all them himself. They all got invited to an orientation at the arena or at the practice facility. And they figured he might pop in and say hi and be like, hey guys, thanks for coming in. And they're waiting. Like, who's going to come in and do the presentation? Where's all the staff members? It was Victor. Victor walks in the room, shakes all them by hand. They all introduce themselves. He goes, oh, I already know your names. I selected you. You're here because I selected you. And they had a three hour orientation. He did the first PowerPoint presentation of his life for them. But he made himself. He doesn't have his agency do his stuff for him. He doesn't have the team do his stuff for him. He does it himself. He's a real 21 year old who should be in college, finishing up his minor in international relations or whatever it is. He's doing the work. He's supplementing his lost experience of not getting to be a college kid by doing stuff like this. And his ethos of the whole thing from the beginning is this isn't Wemby's block. The Jackals were. They took the coyote, which is the mascot of the spurs, and then jackals, which are kind of the European equivalent to a coyote. So I guess they call. It's a slightly different species, but they call them Jackals in Europe as opposed to Coyotes. And he's like, jackals is kind of the perfect meld of like, it takes a bit of my identity and melds it with the spurs in San Antonio. Identity. And that was the important thing for him in the whole process was that, like, I want this to have my blood running through it, but it's not my body. This is something that I'm contributing to, even if I'm the first Jackal. And he called himself, I'm one of the eight original Jackals. He didn't say I'm the head Jackal, he said, I'm one of the eight original Jackals. So that it's equally Big Reds, which, if you've read my story on the Athletic, you know, the Big Red story. If you haven't read it, highly recommend it, because not that I can write, but just that Big Red is so fascinating that learning about his story is so interesting. And there's plenty of other guys in the. In the Jackals that are interesting, too. And so Victor made it very clear, like, I don't want this to be about rooting against the opponent. Like, we're not going to trash talk the opponent. We're not going to like, get. Do anything personal. This is about uplifting the spurs, uplifting the community. And what's come of that isn't just that the spurs games are way more fun now because there are. There is a fan section on their feet, cheering, dancing, singing the entire time. It isn't just that NBA games are way more fun when you have actual singing chants happening the entire time. Like, it really is transformative. But it's that, like, they went out in the community and started doing community work. They were, they were cheering people on at the San Antonio Marathon. They were visiting hospital patients. One of their plans, which I have to check and see if they've been doing it, is they wanted to start going to local youth sporting events like soccer matches and football games and actually, like, cheer for the local, like, little kids, like, bring the Jackals to actual games. So this is something that's bigger than. Than Victor. And then Victor added on the whole, like, drum, like, clap and response thing that, like, the Thunder, like, do before their games. The Vikings do it too, in Minnesota. Like, obviously it comes from European soccer or, you know, just soccer globally. And, like, that's become a huge rallying thing where, you know, usually people want to rush out of the arena when the game is ending, especially because, like, there's traffic and stuff. He has a lot of the arena sticking around now so they can be a part of the clapping thing. And Victor, he did the first one. I don't know if he's done another one since then. They basically use this as, like, the spurs player of the game thing where, like, they will pick one of the players to lead with the mallet in hand and lead the drum thing with the Jackals clapping. And then the whole arena claps. And so it's completely transformed the spurs experience. It has really, I think, changed the sense of civic pride in San Antonio to the point that in the rare times I actually get to sleep in my own bed and be home in San Antonio, sometimes I'll walk into the neighborhood and I'll see people wearing Jackals shirts. It's becoming a thing. It's really remarkable. And so to see a player transform his city like this, this quickly, it's remarkable.
- [45:22]
Justin Varior
The jackals taken over1.1 youth soccer game at a time. This is great. All right, let's talk about the rest of the roster here. Just because I think at this point I was expecting something to happen between the Harper, Fox, Castle, Trioka of guards. Like the fact that they're just reeling this off and it really hasn't been much of a problem. We'll see if it is down the road when Harper, like, really starts to ascend. But, like, seems like these guys work in concert well. Seems like they get along really well. What has this been like? Just navigating on the flyer? Has it been as easy as it seemed from afar?
- [45:58]
Jared Weiss
Yeah, it's. It's been fine. I mean, right now it's. It's year one. It's easy. And the reason why is Harper's just not. Harper's not ready to be like a main, main, main player yet. Now, if he was starting in the beginning of the season, maybe he would have evolved more and would look more comfortable. Um, I. I don't have any concerns about him getting to the. Like, I think he's going to be as good of a player as we all expected. It's just that his development is stunted compared to like, Cooper and Con Knippel because those guys are like the guys on their team essentially, while Dylan is behind two all star level players. And then with de'. Aaron. De' Aaron's been pretty much exactly what they wanted him to be. Like, he's. He's. He's not quite as explosive as he used to be. Like last night, we were making fun of him because he's not. He only has eight dunks on the year. Well, he had like 50 dunks a few years ago. Like, he's. He's not dunking very often anymore, but his control of the offense is really good and something that people probably won't notice because it's not a lot of the scoring and the assists even that he racks up is just that his ability to read how to set up the offense. And especially because they're an offense that really is predicated on getting stops and then getting out in transition. His ability to control the offense has been really, really crucial for the team. And it's a huge reason why they've been like a top 10 offense this year. When they started out the season Was like one of the worst offenses in the league and they're frankly not even that good of a shooting team. So the fact that their offense is so good where they're not that good of a three point shooting team is a real testament to, I think Fox might even get the most credit honestly of this where his feel for how to push the tempo, when to pull out when something's not going to work, to make sure that they're not turning the ball over and they're losing their advantage and just to get into spaces that are really unique, which is really important when you have the gravity to fire. In Victor, that kind of warps the defensive shape. He's just been so good at it so consistently and so scoring has kind of been like an afterthought for him. His job has mostly been to control the shape and the tempo of the offense and then he scores when he needs to score. So between that and then, Steph Castle is just like, I was one of many people that completely underrated him coming into the season and I messed up. Like he is clearly a star. Like it's very obvious. He arguably could have been the all star pick over d' Aaron this year. I think next season he's very clearly going to be an all star. His, his, his just control in the paint is just unbelievable for a second year guy. Like he, he, the way he works the paint, he looks like he's like a seven year veteran. Like you don't see second year guys be able to just kind of like waltz through the paint against big time players and just find a way to get through them the way that he does. He plays with this like really nice control. He's super strong. His defense is elite. Like he's already an elite point of attack defender and he's just been so, he's been so consistent for them this year. And that's the thing that's been really surprising. So those two guys are playing at such a high level that there's not really much kind of like tension around the fact that Dylan Harper is the backup guard. And then now Harper's gotten, he's been playing really well. Like the last month and a half he's been really, really good. He just won rookie of the month. He just had a great first half in their game against Houston, which is, that's another conversation there. It's just how well they're playing against Houston. But he was great in that Houston first half. Like he's been, he's been really, really good for them. And so you know, Harper probably isn't ready to close out games and they don't need him to close out games. And so his skill set will come along next season more. And then by year three, he'll probably be that guy and he's ready to be that guy. And then that's when they have to figure out, all right, what do we do with this team now? But, you know, it seemed easy in this coming into the season to be like, castle's probably going to be good. Harper looks like he's got a lot of star potential. De' Aaron Fox is entering his prime. They probably get a few good years out of him, then they flip him for something else that makes more sense. Maybe. But dear and Fox looks great. Like he's been what they wanted him to be. And most importantly is he's an all star who is very comfortable in his role. He does not need to be the superstar. He has been very vocal from the beginning. I am here to be the guy that helps channel the Wemby revolution. And there's not a lot of other all stars, not a lot of other max players that are very comfortable sitting in the position that he's in where he's fine with the fact that he's not scoring 21 points per game. He's not averaging eight assists a game. Like, he's fine with his output. He really, really wants to win. So he's been the perfect guy for this team. And there's nothing going on that suggests that he's not going to be here for, you know, for the long term just because he's been such a good fit.
- [50:33]
Justin Varior
Yeah. Harper, whenever he has games like he had last night and just in general just feels like a bonus. And I guess that's the, like, the leniency you have with a rookie is that you can kind of like diminish him in ways you probably couldn't an established veteran. I do wonder what's going to happen in the playoffs. Do they just. He's just not there that night. Do they just sit him? For the most part, do they shorten the rotation and all of a sudden just deal with it that way? Because I do think that's probably what they're up against. If we're thinking long term, we're thinking about this season, which I can't believe even, like two months ago, I didn't think we were going to be talking about this season as a potential, like, title winning team. I know, you know, seven guys, Kelden's been very good for them. They have guys around there in order to just kind of like, paper over the situation. But I think that's where we are right now in the conversation is like the playoff minutes. Like, how many minutes does Dylan Harper get? Like, can he swing one game? Did you ever expect, like, be having these conversations this quick until, like, your spurs run?
- [51:28]
Jared Weiss
No, no. I mean, I thought I was going to be here first year was going to be like, all right, I'm there for the transition where Wemby starts to figure it out. They make the playoffs and they probably lose in the first round. There's some good lessons to be learned. And now I'm like, are we going to be like, are we going to be in a parade? Like, what. What do I wear for a, for a. A parade in the middle of June in San Antonio? Like, am I just going to get a heat stroke? Like, what do I do at this point? Yeah, I'm gonna get like, just like one of those, like giant Poland spring, like jugs of water. There's carry it with me. Like, these guys, these guys are legit. Like, it's real. I think there are a lot to get out of the first round, especially they have Phoenix as their matchup right now. Phoenix has played them really well, but I think that they can beat that team. The west is good enough that once you get to the second round, you have no idea what's going to happen. So I think what's fun about this season is that the parody is so strong. You don't know who the MVP is really. You don't know who the favorite to win the championship is. There's like five teams that I could really make a compelling case for, but this team is clearly in that league. And that's what's so surprising because when the. When the start of the season came and a lot of the reporters here started asking all the players, like, what's your goal? Do you think you guys are a playoff team, top four seed, favorite in the West? Every single player was like, we're trying to make the playoffs. That's our goal. We're going to like, probably be a playing team. We're going to win the play in game and we're going to get into the playoffs and we're going to see what it's like. And Wemby, he. He was audacious. He said six seed. He said six. We're going to be six. That's our goal. And now it's like, if this team fell to the six seed, it would be looked at as a catastrophe, right? Like These guys are. These guys are fighting for the one seed and they're close. They probably won't catch it, but, like, there's a chance. But, like, these guys are. I just saw. Was it like John Schumann at NBA.com put them as number one in those power rankings? Like, these guys are at a level that you just. It's hard to believe that they are there, but they are there.
- [53:28]
Justin Varior
All right, before we go, got to talk about Lou Cornett and his blogging. Just quickly, star of the spurs, has he ever pulled up to you and been like, hey, can you take a look at my copy? Give me some advice here?
- [53:42]
Jared Weiss
We've had a lot of conversations in the last week or two about it. I offered to take a look. So I'm trying to get him to write for me. Honestly, I want to hire him, and he can be one of our writers here at the Athletic. But this whole thing is so interesting. I appreciate him writing his op ed on Magic City because I just put a huge feature out the day before, and I was like, I hope people will read this. And there was some interest. And then once he put that out, it was like gangbusters from there. And so Luke is such an interesting person. He's one of the most interesting people in the NBA. He's brilliantly hilarious. He's incredibly thoughtful. And one of the things that's been interesting of him being a writer is that he is one of those kind of wandering thinkers where he starts to make his point, then he kind of gets lost on a tangent and all that, and he's like, yeah, at the end. And so when you write, it allows you to channel all your thoughts, sit with them, and bring. Put a period at the end of that sentence. And that's really hard to do when you're at least like, me and you have ADHD brain. And so it's been really interesting to see Luke get to really finish these sentences on his big thoughts. And so before the Magic City thing, it was like, all right, this is a really interesting venture into his mind. Then when he came out against Magic City, I was like, this is an unshocking but a little surprising destination for the Lou Cornet journey to go where he's like, he was someone that just generally didn't really want to, like, get in, like, get into the whole, like, I'm standing for something kind of aspect of public life where it's like, you can, like, share your thoughts on, like, what's going on there, but you're not. Most of these NBA players are Like, I don't want to, like, stand for something and then put myself in the crosshairs of the public. And I don't think that's even a cowardice thing. I think it's just that, like, as you saw with him, it's like, whenever you take a position on anything as an NBA player, it turns into first take. Debating it's all day long or characters getting torn apart.
- [55:41]
Justin Varior
Right.
- [55:41]
Jared Weiss
It's just not worth it. It's just not worth it. And, you know, and sometimes in life, there are things that happen that, like, it is worth taking a stand on. And so, I mean, just ask players about gambling, you know, and it's like, you know, they're starting. They're starting to publicly take a stand because they're seeing that it's. It's not worth the upside, and they're also not really getting enough of the upside, honestly. But with Luke, he decided this is what he wanted to take a stand for, and it's like, he wasn't wrong. His overall point about the NBA shouldn't be endorsing anything that could be connective to exploitative nature. Totally reasonable. I think most people could agree with that. When you peel back the layers of context to the situation, it's like, I don't have a problem with them doing Magic City night. Magic City is a wonderful place. I've had the cultural experience. I highly suggest it to other people, honestly. It was fun. It was crazy. One of the craziest nights of my life was I went to Magic City Monday, and I got kicked in the face by one of the dancers, and I ended up watching somebody almost get into a big fight. That would have been pretty scary. It was a very Magic City experience. It was fun. And it also isn't as like. It's not as strip clubby as you think it would be. It kind of feels more like you're hanging out in a lounge with a bunch of people smoking hookah, and then there just happens to be a new dancer nearby. But it was really more of, like, an acrobat than it was. Draymond Green's comments about it. Being an artist, he's actually kind of right. And it's just like, most people don't get it because most people can't peel back. They can't walk. They can't just drop the veneer of it's a strip club and think about it from a more constructive perspective. So it's like there are very different perspectives on how this. What Magic City represents in the city of Atlanta to A lot of people, it represents something of more of like a cultural art form institution, which it is in many regards. And so I appreciate Luke's sentiment and I don't think I necessarily agree that they should cancel it. I guess actually it'd be happening tonight. Right? So I can't wait to watch Magic City Monday in Atlanta. But it was a very interesting thing to see an NBA player write an op ed of taking a position of protesting something because we just never see that happen. And it was very ironic that it was Luke of all people, because Luke has never really been one to want to get himself involved with anything. Not just political in the sense of politics in general in the US but just political of getting involved with some sort of policy or cultural standpoint within the NBA community. But I thought it was great that he decided to do it because hopefully it'll push more athletes to want to get involved with things of this nature and have more substantive conversations. And hopefully the NBA can be a place where people debate philosophically instead of just talking about whether the Jays can get along for the 12th time in 12 years.
- [58:30]
Justin Varior
Basically what you're doing is backdoor pitching the follow up piece for Luke, which is, I went to Magic City and I've opened my eyes up to this new and exciting cultural experience.
- [58:41]
Jared Weiss
I don't think it's going to happen. Although shout out to Chris Kirschner of the Athletic, because after, I think it was after Lou Williams went to Magic City, during the bubble, Chris went and did an investigative piece where he had to go deep undercover going to Magic City, which I'm sure was a very difficult piece for him to put together. But it was the words Tropical Delight. Yeah, it was the Wings. But he met somebody named Tropical Delight and the rest of the story was really fascinating.
- [59:07]
Justin Varior
Well, I wish that upon Luke and everybody else out there in the world. All right, Jared, this has been awesome. Thanks so much for joining us.
- [59:15]
Jared Weiss
Always a pleasure. I'll see you at Magic City. There you go. Monster Energy. Everybody knows White Monster, Zero Ultra, that's the og it kicked off this whole Zero sugar energy drink thing, but Ultra is a whole lineup now.
- [59:31]
Tom Haberstroh
You've got Strawberry Dreams, Blue Hawaiian Sunrise and Vice Guava.
- [59:35]
Jared Weiss
And they all bring the Monster Energy punch.
- [59:38]
Tom Haberstroh
So if you've been living in the
- [59:39]
Justin Varior
White can branch out.
- [59:41]
Jared Weiss
Ultra's got a flavor for every vibe and every single one is Zero Sugar. Tap the banner to learn more Shot
- [59:49]
Justin Varior
clocks, big shots, upsets, aces. TGL playoffs are here. First Atlanta Drives starts their repeat run against Los Angeles Golf Club. Then Rory's Boston Common golf and Tigers Jupiter Lynx face off in their playoff debuts.
- [60:01]
Jared Weiss
Who will advance?
- [60:01]
Justin Varior
Keep up its playoffs. Tune in Tuesday, March 17th at 6:30pm and 9:00pm only on ESPN and the ESPN app. All right. Joining me now, Tom Haberstro. Honestly, getting the full zoom screen of you is a little different. I'm used to you showing up in a little tiny box there, giving me all these great stats on the Blazers broadcast. But great to see you bright and shiny and big.
- [60:24]
Tom Haberstroh
Yeah. The studios over there, the Blazer studios over the First Tech Federal Credit Union backdrop, which we switched up halfway through the season. It used to be a white backdrop and now it's a black backdrop. So it's very, it's very nice to be here on the show and with all my fake plants behind me, it just feels, it feels right to do it here in this setting. But if you would like me to go to the Blazer setting, I'm happy to do that too.
- [60:49]
Justin Varior
I want you to feel as comfortable as possible. You're showing off your Donovan clinging commemorative glass to me before. We, we just want you in your comfort zone. There you go.
- [60:58]
Tom Haberstroh
Yeah, here it is. Here it is. The DC glass. He looks great. And as a Connecticut tier, we can appreciate just how pasty white he is on this glass. And he looks great. And I got my shade and sharp one here somewhere. And scoot. And they don't look half as good as this Bristol, Connecticut native right here.
- [61:20]
Justin Varior
That's our chosen son. He might not realize it or care because I definitely tried to accost him and tell him all about UConn1. He's like, yeah, sure, whatever, brother. Like, I'm actually half your age. Go away from me. But we appreciate him nonetheless.
- [61:33]
Tom Haberstroh
Yeah, yeah, he, he's been, he's been great this year. A lot more in shape and playing a lot more minutes. And the three point shot is something we kept hearing about that he, it was something that was in his bag that they were developing in the lab and the, the center still just give it to him. And they're like, I, I don't really believe that you can hit this. And he's now hitting it at like a 30, 38% clip over the last couple months. And it's, it's a real shot now. And so I always thought that Donovan Clingan was this like American Rudy Gobert with a jump shot potential. Like, that was kind of his ceiling was as a, a guy super long, willing to do the dirty work around the basket set, hard screens, offensive rebound, Put backs, all that, you know, dive, rim running alley, oops, like set screen and roll. And then he's like, oh, I can actually shoot a little bit. And so I, I'm. I've refused to put a ceiling on him as like a Rudy Gobert type because I think it's more in like the Miles Turner, Brook Lopez mold as a guy who rim protects but also can step out and space when you need to.
- [62:41]
Justin Varior
Tom, this is why you're here. Because I made the Rudy go bear with the jump shot comp a couple months ago and I was laughed off this show. I was told it was ridiculous and I was like, listen, he's taking those shots. They look fluid, they look good. Like he's onto something here. And I think he has, like, he's been incredibly good here. But all right, before we get into cling and some of the younger guys, we got to start with Scoop because Scoot had just kind of a breakthrough game last night. I think he's a talk of like the Blazers overall just because they settled into this like in between zone, they're going to make the play and what seed we'll see. But they kind of are who they are. As long as Denny's going to be kind of in and out of the lineup here. I think Scoot, people are just waiting for him to show something. If not, I think they're waiting to pile on him, quite frankly. What do you think of last night's game? 28 points. And just like kind of the overall Scoot experience this season.
- [63:29]
Tom Haberstroh
Oh, the stat that jumps out to me, JV is the zero turnovers. Yeah, like 28 points. Great. Like that's awesome. Six assists. That's great. But the mistake free basketball. We actually looked this up on the broadcast last night. Is the leader in NBA history with most 25 and five games without a turnover. I thought it was CP. I thought it was Chris Paul. That seems like a very Chris Paul thing to do is to have 25 points, five assists and zero turnovers. Turns out it's Damian Lillard, all time leader in 25, 5 and 0 turnover. Like throwing perfect games with 25 points and at least five assists. It's Dame and he has the most all time. And second on the list was DeMar DeRozan. So those two have never put in the same stat leaderboard ever. And then here they are on most games with at least 25, 5 and 0 turnovers. And with Scoot it, he never really seemed all that comfortable this season. He had a couple of good games Right out the the shoot. But it, it seemed like a lot of hesitation, a lot of dribbling into nowhere and finding little creases and not having a plan, so to speak. And then Sunday happened where it was, everything was decisive. He was cutting through the lane and having a plan of attack. If, if the basket was, was covered, he was going to hit that floater. He, if he was on a fast break instead of just like trying to out jump or out pace someone, he actually was going to go into them like Denny does and draw the foul and try to shoot over them. There was just. Everything was working for him and for Scoot, the watch for me has been frustrating because I know he's got the toolkit like he's got speed, he's got strength and he's shown that he can, that he can shoot the heck out of the ball. Like last season, at the end of the season he was a damn near 40% shooter from downtown. So I was just waiting for that breakout game. And it was Sunday. It was incredible. And yes, the Indiana Pacers are, are, you know, tanking for AJ or whomever it is, but their defense isn't that bad. Their defense is like 26 or something like that and it's not near in the Sacramento Kings Pelicans area. And so yeah, he took Pascal Siakam to school at one point and I was just like, okay, like he's got his confidence back and I think coming off the bench was a very big reason for that because I think next to Drew in the starting lineup, he might not feel as comfortable next to another point guard, but when he's at the reins, he was awesome.
- [65:56]
Justin Varior
Yeah. I also think it helps to be practically five out just considering that Rob Williams is hitting the corner three like at a pretty decent consistency or at least, very least, you have to respect it. But like, I know V isn't really shooting well, but like to be out there with V&2 and Jeremy and Rob, it's just like seemed to give him the space he needed because I agree with you. Just seems like the three point shot is just the skeleton key for everything that he's doing. It's why he was successful last season and you were seeing on that road trip the fact that he wasn't shooting the way that was trickling down to not only how he was playing the rest of the game, but like how the team was affected overall. Like the, the Houston game. If, if, if Indiana was like kind of the peak. The Houston game was very much the nadir because he gets Blocked by Reed shepherd to start. And I was like, oh, boy, this. This can get bad very quickly. And then you're seeing Reed just like back off of him going under screens and just like, he just couldn't figure it out. I think his confidence was pretty racked by that point too. But like, the fact that people are going underneath, like, he. He doesn't have like the explosive, like one of one quick step. And he's not like the strongest guy in the world, but he has a good enough of those things as long as he has the margin of error provided by the shot. And if you're just going to sink off of him, he kind of just doesn't know what he's going to do. And so as soon as he hit those shots to start with, he was doing it one. He was successful. And then to the decisiveness to get it up, to not hesitate. When he got an open space, you just saw it just kind of like unlock everything else. And so I think, like, it is pretty reductive. Be like, oh, can this guy shoot or not shoot? I feel like we talk about that with every single player. But like, for Scoot, I do think it matters between like a guy who like, seems a little shook versus a guy who could make a pretty profound impact like he did against the basers.
- [67:35]
Tom Haberstroh
Yeah, he. He was awesome. And you're right is the spacing is a pretty big deal when you're talking about him and the. And the passing lanes that he has to get into. And it's just everything was working, you know, like, he loves throwing lobs for his guys. You could clearly see that Scoot loves setting up his teammates. And it's. It's there. Like there's. There's a. There's a real starting point guard there that needs to have a little bit more confidence and, and more decisiveness. And I think you saw that in the game on Sunday. And there, there are a couple plays. I was like, who is that guy? Like, he did this like, little step back three stepped into it where it was just super confident and it switched. And I was like, I don't think I've seen him shoot it like that since last year. And maybe it just takes a while. This guy had a torn hamstring. And so coming in mid season where you got Jrue Holiday playing ahead of you, um, it. It might be a case that he just needed more reps. Yeah.
- [68:33]
Justin Varior
How do you feel about him overall? Because I think with him, people just expected so much from the jump, the G League ignite stuff him going against Wemby, it almost set himself up for these expectations he was probably never going to live up to. I've been thinking about him more in the Mike Conley mole. This is someone we talk about a lot amongst the reporters who are at the game, if only because Conley, as, you know, like just shot out of a cannon, just like blinding speed. Seemed like he was the sort of like young athlete who might not ever get it eventually, but then kind of morphed into this heady, like organizer, leader of men type. I think Skew is, probably has a little bit more of an athletic advantage just because he's built a little bigger. He's more like a running back. And I do think you're starting to see him kind of inflict that force, especially at the rim. He's been kind of like above the rim a little bit more than he ever has been earlier in the season when he had things kind of going a little bit better. But I think like for him to succeed, he has to be more of a technician who like adds the athletic stuff on the side. And I think you can. When you talk to him and you hear him, I think he gets that part of it. He seems like a real like workaholic. Gets like the whole I've got this dog in me and I'm willing to figure out everything. Like he knows all the technical aspects of his workouts and like what he's doing. I was like really impressed listening to him kind of talk through that stuff. Does that comp ring for you or do you see something else for him? And I guess like long term, like, do you think he's gonna put this all together?
- [70:01]
Tom Haberstroh
Yeah, I would love if he had a, a consistent three point shot because all that speed, it, it, it just kind of multiplies onto itself. If you have the ability to shoot, they're gonna have to go over on those screens. And like when we talk about last year, a lot of the three point shooting percentage Lamar and I have talked about is guys were going under the screen and he was wide open hitting these threes. And it was like, good, because then they're going to have to go over that screen and try to, to remove that airspace and have you have a multi dimensional point guard like that would do, would do numbers for the, for the Blazers. I look at a guy like Chris Dunn who had this like coming into the league as a top five pick for Tom Thibodeau, couldn't really find himself and then was just like a dog defensively and just re Completely rebranded himself and had a Good, you know, 1012 year career in the league. I'm not saying that that's what he should be shooting for, but there's so many guys who come in with these sort of expectations as a, as a young point guard, top five pick and then have to re, re engineer themselves. And Scoot has all the tools to be that menace defensively. He just watches too many Kamara tape, he can be that Blake Wesley tape, he can be that. But the, the real swing factor is that three point shot. And without that it's going to be tough for him to be like kind of this score first point guard if he doesn't have that three point shot. And it's, it's. I don't think there's a better mentor right now for him than Drew Holiday. Just the way that they're both built are like linebackers and being able, just this solid professional who does all the dirty work. And Drew doesn't have the fastest lightning quick speed. He's, he's almost lulling you to sleep every time he's out on the floor. And I do think Scoot needs some of that, is just understanding the game can really slow down for him if he watches Drew Holiday tape. But as we know, the game only slows down for you when you have a flow or an IQ or like something like you're, you're thinking about the game in a more cerebral way where you don't feel like you have to speed everything up. I think Scoot can be that guy where he can slow things down. It's just going to take, I think whether it's. You talk about him being a gym rat, a workaholic, I think that's right. I just hope that he's engineer, he's, he's dedicating that energy into the right place when it comes to shooting and the different types of looks that he's getting and the confidence. I mean you saw it in that game on Sunday. It was, it was a different player. It was a totally different player. And I think he's gonna have a long NBA career if he can figure out that three point shot.
- [72:41]
Justin Varior
I just don't see a bust. Like I know a lot of labels are getting thrown out there. I just, I don't see him just outright busting. Like the shot mechanics all look sound even though they weren't going in. Like he's getting better at scoring at the basket which is the next step forward with him. Like he was shooting around 70% before that long road trip. The road trip was particularly bad, but like as you mentioned, like the hamstring strain was, or the, the, the tear just like was significant. Like he missed most of what was going to be kind of like the breakthrough season. And the fact that he's even playing steady minutes at this point I think is pretty like indicative of like how much of a worker he is. And so just, just give it time, guys. Like well on, that's going to be fine. Yeah, on that.
- [73:21]
Tom Haberstroh
Keonte George, right. Like we were writing him off last year and just wondering is he, is he an NBA player? Like a guy you can lean on as your starting point guard? And then he made the leap and a lot of it was just getting downhill and leaning into guys and drawing contact and finishing strong, which as a 20 year old you can't really expect that. But as a 23 year old, okay, now they, after a few years under their belt, they understand the tempo and the speed and the nuances of the NBA game and what it is to lead an offense. And Scooch has turned 22. So we have to remind ourselves that these guys are super young coming in a league. We, we put those expectations on them.
- [73:55]
Justin Varior
All right, let's talk about some of these other recent first round picks because what's funny is like the entire team feels like it's one thing like the context of the team has taken off where like Denny and two and all these other guys that they picked up along the way have become sort of the foundation. But the first round picks I think are like the object of fascination just because teams don't typically stack as many as they've had in recent years. If we were to power rank the recent first guys. So we got Scoot, we got Cling and we got Shay and I guess we could throw Yong in there, although he's not really playing like this season. If we're doing first round pick power rankings, is it clinging like far and away? Yeah, yeah, right.
- [74:33]
Tom Haberstroh
Yeah, it's far and away. I love his game. He wants it so badly. Like you can tell this guy really gives a shit, you know, like really cares. He gets, he gets into it with guys. He has since February 1st. He and Wemby have led the league and forced misses at the rim. He's, he's got added a three point shot. He's still, he's 20, he just turned 22 and it feels like he's got another level of playmaking. Like there's some passes back, passes that he can hit some moves around in the post. He's not a post up guy, but you can, you can tell that he's not very far away from just like a little jump hook in the lane and, and averaging 15, 20 a game like Donovan Cling and I think is not only the best of that group right now, but also the highest ceiling of that group.
- [75:22]
Justin Varior
So I was looking up some of his shooting numbers. Cause I think you're right. I think, I think I was pretty doubtful. I think a lot of people were because as soon as he got drafted, I think the word you're hearing out of the Blazers like, oh, we, we think he could shoot. And it was inevitably met with like, sure, like we sure this guy like the, the kind of like the big old boy down low who's done most of his work down in the basket is going to be able to do that. I, I mean he looks like a natural. He's only shooting 34 on the season, but as you mentioned, it's been very good of late. His shot distance that I was looking at like bigs who are shooting pretty comparable to Chet, which I don't think you think of as like a normal comp there. And I think there's a good and bad in there. Whereas I think his shot has been a major asset for a team that's what, 29th and three point percentage. Like, the offense is getting pretty muddy pretty quickly and so they need his spacing even if he isn't going to shoot it there. And the fact that he's shooting it so without hesitation I think has been an asset to the offense. Just overall, I think the fact that like you could look at it long term and be like, well, someone that size isn't as much of a factor at the basket as he could potentially be. He's not dunking everything. But I think you're right though where like I think the mid shot, the push shot, the little floaters a little touch around the rim. I do wonder if he can almost reverse engineer kind of his trajectory as a player where it's like if he develops enough of a shot kind of like with scoot, can he just like slowly move into the basket? Can he be the type of guy who's like touch and like little push shots and, and everything else. Like, there's just so much there we could talk about like the handoff game that they haven't really locked into, like in the way that UConn used him because he is pretty smart and navigating that and just like using his frame in ways like he's just a big Old freaking boy. But I do wonder if like, I've completely like undersold him or just not thought about him in the correct way because he seems like the guy who's like, might be a touch player more than he is. Just like a put you into the basketball and just dunk over you sort of guy.
- [77:06]
Tom Haberstroh
He's got a lot of touch. Like, he's got a really good feel for the game. Some of his passes, the one handed slingshot passes, he's got that. He's also, I mean, he's rugged too. The guy just delivered a very dirty blow of the elbow and got ejected from the game. And he was like, yep, that was my bad. Yep, my bad. He's got an edge to him that I feel like Donovan Clingan is. You need those guys in your hole, right? You need them in the trenches because he really cares. He really wants to win. He's won a championship at the college level and you can tell that he's willing to put in the work to maximize his NBA career. I, I think, I think the world of Donovan Kligan to add that three point shot. It's been, I think over the last month and a half, he's shooting north of 45% from downtown. He, early in this season he was shooting it and it wasn't like, oh, I don't know if he, I don't know if he has that yet. And then it clearly is something where he's, he shoots it like four times in the first quarter and the opposing team is just like, wait, what? You have this. And he's leading the league in offensive rebounds per game. So he's, he's got the three point shot, but it's not like he's living out there on the perimeter that Brook Lopez might be. He's, he's down at the rim and he really loves to get dirty in the paint. And that's when you want to look at Donovan Klingon and say, I, I don't know exactly who he is, but we just saw Miles Turner go to the NBA Finals. We saw Brook Lopez win the NBA finals next to Giannis and a dumpo. And I just think, you know, Chad Holmgren, you just mentioned it. You need multidimensional bigs in today's NBA. And I think he's that guy. He's got a good feel for the game and as kind of a, that he, when he catches it at the top of the key and he just kind of dribbles at you and does a dho, it just it just seems like it's a natural thing for him. I think at 22 years old, I love what I'm seeing out of this guy and I think he's going to be one of the best defensive big men in the league for years to come. And it wouldn't be surprised me if either this year or next year, he's in the defensive player of the year conversation.
- [79:10]
Justin Varior
Like any great Connecticut, he just grew a beard and just the badass came out. You know, this was his destiny.
- [79:17]
Jared Weiss
That's right.
- [79:18]
Tom Haberstroh
That's right.
- [79:19]
Justin Varior
No, but he plays with the sort of swagger and fuck you that I think he was always meant to because that's who he was at UConn. Like he was a badass and he played like that with the big old terror squad chain and like, as soon as he started to have some success, the being in better shape I think helped. And just being like having some go to offense, I think helped as well. But also like starting and like playing starters minutes, like as soon as that happened is just something clicked in him that his entire personality, personality came out. And like, I think the entire team is benefiting from him because like, I think they're developing this mindset down from two and some of these other guys Dame as well. Like, I think that they are going to be scrappy and like have to dig games out of the mud.
- [80:02]
Tom Haberstroh
Yeah. He's also knocked down his foul rate. Like his first year, rookie year last year, he led the league in fouls per 48. Now it's almost down to cut in half. And yeah, his blocks, he's not blocking as many shots, but he's deterring a ton of shots and he's not fouling and they need that because I think a lot of those fouls were exhaustion fouls is just. He was frustrated. You know, he wasn't in top shape, but man, there were, there were some like, you know, he would, he would miss a layup or a putback and then he would get frustrated on the other end and foul a guy. And that was rookie. Just coming off a championship year and feeling like he's. He's frustrated or not at the right conditioning levels. And then when he started getting into shape and he's a little bit more cut and he was able to finish these games, I think a lot unlocked with Donovan Clingan and he's able to get these, I don't know, these fourth quarters where he's able to be out there and playing at a high level that just didn't. We didn't see as much of that last year. So I, I, I sense that you watching him at UConn, were you trying to check your own biases and be like, all right, he's good, but how good? I don't want to be known as like the UConn homer on this one. So I'm curious, what is the evolution for you as rooting for Donovan Klingen as a prospect and also as a
- [81:16]
Justin Varior
Yukon that I've always like been rooting for him. I want to see him do well. Like, if he needs a place to stay, like, I've got an extra bedroom, I can, I could house him whenever he needs.
- [81:26]
Tom Haberstroh
Just got engaged, jv. You got to respect that.
- [81:29]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Okay.
- [81:29]
Justin Varior
You know, sometimes, you know, things happen and you know, instead of sit like sleeping on the couch, like, I've got a pull out couch just here for you. So like I was always hopeful. I mean that draft class was just such a mess. I didn't know what to expect overall. And after his first year, like the conditioning stuff I think was real. And like, I just wondered overall how much a big guy who didn't really have an effect offensively at the basket, like, how, like, what was his long term future there? Especially after drafting Yong, I was like, oh, maybe he's a rotational center and he's just going to be so big that you could just work him in in the way that some teams do, just with a guy that has like one primary skill. But like all of a sudden this year he looks foundational to everything that they're doing. Like, we could talk about Yang. He hasn't played much. I haven't really seen a ton. I know he's played much better in the G league and whatnot. But like, I think it's going to be tough. Like if both of them can work in concert, that would be great. I don't know if they could ever work in the same lineup, but like, if you could have a rotation of those guys, you could work that out. But Clanken almost feels like a part of their identity in a way that like I was never expecting at this point.
- [82:32]
Tom Haberstroh
Yeah, I mean he, we did a stat, the Haber stat the other night was 10 win shares. It's the most win shares for any player in his draft class. Donovan Clingan has the number one productivity rating of his draft class. Now you can say, hey, Steph Castle's the guy. You can say, Reed Shepherd's the guy. You can say a couple other. But Donovan Clingan, the minutes, the production, you'd have a pretty good case that he's been the best player in the NBA Elvis over over the last two years in his draft class. I'm not talking about the future in the ceiling, but this guy's already leading the league in a category offensive rebounds and he's got a three point shot and he's a guy that's going to defend the rim at a high level. So he's deterring a lot of pain points. If you look at his on court opponent points per points in the paint per 48 like basically how well does the opposing team get into the paint and score when Donovan Clingan's on the, on the floor, it's minuscule. It's right there with Wemby. So even if he isn't blocking four shots a game, clearly he's a deterrent. And so I think if you're redrafting 20, 24, I don't think he's going as late as he did. I think he's going much higher than that. And with Zach Edie, it was always he and Zach Edie as the two guys. Like who's better after that amazing championship game. I think it's pretty clear that not just an a durability standpoint, but I think, I think Donovan Klingan is a legitimate, legitimate top three guy in that class.
- [84:00]
Justin Varior
I honestly think like the comp might be more with SAR than it is with Edie just because I know SAR has more mobility and probably scales better. You could do more like you could put a traditional big like AD next to him, whereas Clingan is very much a five and it's always going to be a five. But like there is like the shooting isn't as much of an advantage with Saar over clinging as you initially expected. And honestly I kind of like Klingon's shot mechanics a little bit better. But you're right, like Clingan's like a top five guy at the very least in that draft going forward. Can we talk about Shay shading sharp? I'll be honest, I've never been a big shading guy or at least I probably was at a certain point. Like before I started watching these games pretty closely because the talent is just like overwhelming. Dude floats in the air and you're like, I've never seen that before. Like just make some of the type of athletic plays that it just like few guys can even at the NBA level had success as a scorer when they needed to him earlier in the season. Obviously out at this point. Where are you just like, overall with Shaden, do you think he's ever going to tap into the talent that he has or do you think he's going to maybe like settle into something probably less than that?
- [85:12]
Tom Haberstroh
Again, we have to remind ourselves. 22 years old, so we got Scoot, we got DC and we got Shay, who are all 22 and just tapping into their abilities. And whereas Tamani Kamara And Denny, they're 25, 26 years old, so they've got a few years ahead of them. And so it's hard for us to kind of place and account for their youthfulness because they are 22. And yeah, there are players who come into the league right away and just dominate in ways that, you know, con cannipal comes to mind where it's like, wait, he's already this good and it's his rookie year, but that's the exception, not the rule. And for Shaden, his finishing ability, I think we, we look at the dunks and everything, but his ability to hang in the air and finish. There aren't many guys I'd rather have getting downhill with the layup package that Shaden Sharp has. I don't know if there are many guys that would pick above him. Last year in the second half of the season, he was the league leader in field goal percentage at the rim on high volume. And most of those were not dunks, those were layups. There was a touch high off the glass, finesse finishes and he hasn't been able to get to the free throw line as much as. But I, I think it, part of it is like that Derrick Rose thing. Remember when Hollinger wrote that piece about what Derrick Rose needs to do in order to make the leap is to just like be able to draw fouls and finish through contact. Same thing is just Shaden is so athletic that it's almost like he uses his athleticism to avoid contact. But in many ways I feel like his only free, four free throws per game and his free throw rate, I want to see that higher because I think that's just that no one can stay in front of him and they're going to foul him every time because he's, he can hang in the air for so long and just leveraging that athleticism and leveraging that pogo stick, just, you don't know what he's going to do when he gets into the lane. It hasn't happened yet where he can consistently do that and have the three point shot. And this, this is a theme that you're sensing here on the show is if he adds a legitimate three point shot, the Blazers go from just a mid tier team to top 10 team and we have the stats like I've been hammering. This point is that when the blazers are shooting 33 or more percent, they're a top 10 team. Their record is 22 and 9. When they have at least 33% shooting from downtown. If they just got some consistency from Shea, from Scoot, from dc, from Tamani, from a, from a three point standpoint, just everything opens up for this team and I think Shaden Sharp counts in that where if he has a consistent three point shot he can get to his mid range anytime he wants. But it's not an elite Shay Gildrus Alexander mid range, it's not DeMar DeRozan or KD. So if he can just get that shot profile in line with his athletic abilities, he can float at the three point line too. He can get so high up and I just, I, I think, I think it's, I think it's going to come together for that guy. It's 20. He's averaging over 20 points a game. It's not elite efficiency, it's more in the Paolo Banchero realm where it's like he's getting that mostly on volume. But I still believe in shade and Sharp and I still think like it's, it's way too early to write him off.
- [88:22]
Justin Varior
I'm glad you mentioned that specifically. So 21.4 points per game I believe is what he's averaging on the season. I know it's just like a raw measure and like you can get that in a variety of ways. And you could argue that like the Blazers are one of the few teams at this point that had the vacuum for someone to have that sort of usage in order to do so because he was doing that in concert with Denny kind of as a trade off situation where they were practically the only two offensive players doing much earlier in the season and there were times where it was just him getting, being able to kind of run the show here. So he had the window in a way that few players do. But like I'm just looking at this, there's 42 players over the course of this season that average over 20 a game. Yeah, there's like Zions in there. There are other guys you can quibble with. Dylan Brooks, although he's having kind of a breakthrough year in his own right. But like we do this top 100 list on the ringer every month and like these are all kind of like the guys in the league. Like, yeah, there's a Tyler hero, but it's all like, it's Harden, it's Bane, it's Shen Gun, it's Brown, it's like, it's all of the guys. And so the only guy not on this top 42 that's in our hundred list is Shaden Sharp. I think that should show you something about at the very least what he's capable of. I think my concern overall is one, why the shot isn't working because he has picturesque, like, shooting form and the fact that he has some, like his springs are like kind of just like one of one at a certain point at his size. Like, I just don't understand why it doesn't go in. I haven't heard like a good explanation of that yet. But it does feel like he gets things, but he gets them very slowly. And it's always like concentrated into like that lane and layering anything on top of that is kind of difficult. And so like, yeah, the straight ahead downhill stuff has really popped this year in a way that I think is incredibly notable. But then it's like, oh, can we pass to other guys in a way that like, you spray out and get them involved and like not have the blinders on in order to see those things happening? It's like, well, maybe sometimes. And that was the next kind of hurdle for him before he got hurt. So, like, probably didn't get a chance to see it. But like, I do worry about stacking things with him. I guess the flip side of that, to play Dev Devil's advocate is like, he is young and I think he just might be slower than everybody else. And so maybe it will take three years or two years for him to become optimal offensive, like, kind of downhill guy, but it's coming. I just, I would have expected him to be a little bit farther along because he's older than some of these other guys we're talking about.
- [90:43]
Tom Haberstroh
Yeah, yeah, certainly, certainly all fair. And I think the efficiency again, I just, I just know that he can get to the rim relentlessly like Zion. Like, he can. He's got the, he, he's got the shiftiness, he's got the, the speed, the, the, the jumping ability. And I just think he just wants, needs to want it. And I think 20 points per game is not good enough for me when I'm watching Shaden Sharp. I didn't get to 25. There was, there was a while there where it was just like he has the ability to be like a Devin Booker type where it Comes along and you realize, oh, he's not just high volume scoring on a bad team. This actually is one of the elite scorers in the league. And it took a little while for Devin to get to Booker to get there. And that's certainly a high ceiling for Shaden. But I think, I think look, the Blazers locked him up to a four year deal at around like 20, 25,000, $25 million a year. And I think there's a real chance that we're looking at that contract and be like that Blazers were brilliant to get him onto that contract because getting him for ages 23 through 30, 27, you know, like if he puts it together, that's, that's an incredible deal.
- [91:59]
Justin Varior
Yes, I think that deal already looks good. The one for Tubani, the extension for him already looks good. And so like they're going to have a lot of options for them. Honestly, like that's my biggest question for this team overall is that they just have so much good stuff, but perhaps not that like clear cut, number one, superstar level. We could talk about Denny, how close he is to that. But like I'm just wondering looking long term, like how all of this kind of folds together because there's just, there's just so much here. And I think Sharpe popped earlier in the season because he had the Runway to do. So Scoot's kind of getting his time now. It's like how do you build a rotation with Shay with Scoot, with Denny being able to do his things with Dame. We should talk about expected to come back next season. Drew presumably going to be that. There's just like there's a lot here and I think that's one of those good problems to have to work from an abundance. But like it does feel like this off season going into next year probably is a make, make or break sort of time, if only to make some hard decisions about like who you are at this point. Do you kind of have a sense of like long term, who this team is, how the hierarchy kind of all shakes out?
- [93:07]
Tom Haberstroh
Well, I think Denny's the guy. I think Denny's the guy. Big believer in Denny. I think last year when he started turning the corner as a, a triple double threat. A guy who is just relentlessly getting to the rim. You look at, he had another, I think four and ones in the game on Sunday and he's not right. He's clearly not 100% with the back injury. He's missed 16 straight, I think 16 straight three pointers. Just his back is, is not a Hundred percent. He hasn't played more than two consecutive games since mid January, I want to say. And so it's, it's been a tough thing for him to fight through this back injury, but when he's right, I think he's an all NBA player and at his age, with his contract, he's the best value contract in the NBA, bar none. Again, for those who are, who aren't familiar with his contract in the in for the Blazers that he signed with Washington and then Washington decided to get rid of him. He's making $13 million this year and then, or sorry, 14 million this year, 13 next year and 11 in the following year.
- [94:13]
Justin Varior
The decline is crazy. It's already low. But the fact that declines too is,
- [94:17]
Tom Haberstroh
is it declines for the next two, two more years. And it makes it kind of tricky on an extension because he's going to, you know, it's going to be a little bit. CBA rules are going to come into play there, but he's been awesome. When you look at 25, five and five guys, it's Luka, Jokic and Abdia who's leading the league in drive assists. It's Abdia by a mile. And who's, who are the guys that he's passing to to get those drive assists? It's guys who aren't elite three point shooters. And so Denny with Dame and with V. Krechi, Krechi right now shooting 27% on unguarded catch and shoot threes. With the Blazers before with the Hawks it was that 50%. I know he can shoot and I know he need, Denny needs more guys like that around him because when he's getting downhill and he's kicking out to City, Sissoko or Chris Murray or Tomani, it's a different proposition than when it's Dame, Lillard, Drew Holiday and V. Kreche. And so I think Denny has another level that he can get to because if you have a driving downhill force like Luka, like Shai, surrounded by shooters, it's a symbiotic relationship. Those shooters are going to benefit from Denny and Denny is going to benefit from those shooters. And we haven't seen yet what Denny looks like surrounded by elite shooters. And with V. Krechi and Dame coming back, I think Denny's got another level that he can get to. I think people are like, I don't know, he seems a little too foul merchant for me. I think he's way more skilled and way better than what's been shown because I think that once you surround Him. With the right players, I think Denny becomes even more unguardable.
- [95:54]
Justin Varior
I love talking to you about this because I feel like a Denny moderate in comparison. Because, like, I've been trying to steel myself because I've been preaching the Denny gospel all season. When he was like. Seemed like he was taking a double leaf, we were all over that. I very much believe in him. I am disappointed, though, that the back injury crept up just as everyone was coming back. Not only for like the success of the season, but, like, I wanted to see the sample of him working off of other guys because the one thing he had going for him earlier in the season was he was just spamming Denny downhill and it was working to create effect. But I would have liked to see a blend of what he was probably more last year. And even at the end of last year where he really started to turn it on and this like, kind of new version, I think he could do it. But I do want to see him being more like in the flow of everything, playing off of everybody. Especially, like, you see how to. Mani has been optimized by that as well. Like, there just seems to be like a whole other context for him that I just wanted to like, make sure, like, oh, peak Denny plus old Denny can really form this like, voltron of a Denny who could be like a top 10 sort of guy. Because going back to that top 100 rankings, we have him in the top 20 right now. He slid a little bit just because the back ranking because of the back injury of late, but he's been in like the 15 range overall. There is a gap between like being a 15 guy and being a five guy. And that's the difference between being like a playoff team and being a type of contender that will take seriously in the title race. I think that's where I'm wondering. I'm like, overall, I wonder if he'll net out around more in Jalen Brown territory. And then that point, like, do you find yourself wanting? Because then you just need that top five guy. You need the Tatum. I think you could almost work it. So it's more. Denny is a top 15 guy, but surrounded by other guys, good players like you mentioned with. With the shooting and whatnot. Because I think he is primed to almost work like a Giannis type to Dame, where he is the battering ram and Dame is just like the. The flowing shooter type who could provide the space and just do more of the dynamic stuff. I don't know what Dame's going to be next year, and I don't know what Shay's going to be next year. I don't know what Scoot's going to be next year. And so they have all these little bets in order to make the like the right team fit. It's just like there are a lot of question marks still and I just, I just don't know at this point. I'm optimistic, but I don't know.
- [98:12]
Tom Haberstroh
Yeah, I don't know either. I don't. I think the Blazers don't know because there's so many question marks here. The Blazers had the second most games lost due to injury in the NBA. It's just been a tough season from an injury standpoint. Guys coming in and out of the lineup. Just when Scoot comes back and Drew comes back, you got V Kreche. And then Denny, his back starts acting up. And so Blake Wesley has been like a really fun and tease. When they were getting out there in the early in this season you could see the identity of this team as up tempo guard you 94ft, just be dogs on you. Get the Doberman's out and you saw oh okc. Just have a guy who can get downhill and create, you know, 25 and 10 assists like Shay Gilders Alexander can and just surround them by dogs. You're going to be a really tough team to play against every night. And then Tees got hurt, Blake Wesley got hurt and then they kind of had to reinvent themselves on the fly. And Thiago Splitter has never been an NBA head coach before so he's starting to feel this out too. And just as they start to figure out their identity and coming out into the All Star break and then Denny just kind of gets hurt and it's like, oh man, we just got to feel what it was like with the Blazers rear just ramping up into that peak form. And I remember the national conversation was was about how the Blazers were an ascended team and then Denny got hurt. So there is a question mark for me too is how does Damon Denny blend together on the same team? Because Denny's very clearly turbo as we all call him. He wants to get the ball and go. That has not been Damian Lillard's M.O. in the NBA. He wants to slow things down and be more methodical a la Chris Paul and getting into the paint and and running pick and rolls. Whereas Denny, I feel like Denny and 2 and Shea, they're all best in the open court. And that's not to say that you can't do both. But coming back from the Achilles tear Dame playing off ball on Denny is going to be really fun to watch because Dame has not really as much as good as CJ is. I don't think that Dame was as much off ball as I think he'll be asked to do. With the injury, his age and with the ascend ascension of Denny Abdia. I kind of feel like it might be the case that Dame comes back and it's Denny's team in the sense of he's going to be running a lot more of the actions rather than Dame doing it. And maybe that's what Dame wants at this stage of his career is like I don't need to be the guy every time. And honestly with the Giannis experiment that they had in Milwaukee, it wasn't super fluid. The Dame Giannis high pick and rolls every time. And so I think maybe in some ways him moving off the ball could be the best thing for both Denny and Dame. Just I don't think Dame has to work as hard to get his points.
- [100:56]
Justin Varior
I also think from like a chemistry standpoint, Dame kind of slots into the LeBron with AD era Lakers, where he's very much the most important player but probably not the best player at the time and he could turn it on when he needs to. We'll see what he could do coming off of injuries at his age. But like I think it's important for him to be that emotional leader because like he's like a one on one guy. Like everyone in the league kind of looks up to him. I'll also say that like there are a lot of executives if we're looking at Dame next year and like how he's going to come back. There are a lot of like NBA executive types that talk about his work ethic and just like what a dog he is and like his just regular routine, almost like it's a folklore. Like I don't have any doubt that that guy's going to come back and make an impact. We'll see it like on what level, but I think he's going to be a factor over like however long he's going to be playing for the Blazers from here on out. Thiago, just quickly, how you feeling about him? Obviously on the interim tag, we'll see with new ownership coming in. Do you feel good about him overall with this team? I know he's, he's more of an offensive guy and I almost feel like he hasn't gotten the opportunity to kind of make an impact because Denny, as you mentioned, just went out before they actually had the offensive players to actually do some things that are a little bit more creative.
- [102:06]
Tom Haberstroh
Yeah, there's been so many different identity changes on this team because of the personnel going in and out of the lineup. I mean, I love, I love the, the first few weeks of the Blazer season. That's my favorite part of the season was Tees and Blake Wesley just going out there and wreaking havoc and no one could get past half court with those guys on the floor. And Thiago was like, this is the way I want to play. I want to have just guys who guard 94ft, create a lot of transition opportunities. I want up tempo pace is where I want it to be. And then they got hurt and it was a, a tough thing because I was like, oh, I, I can clearly see that Tiago wants to win the possession game. Run up tempo, super conditioned, fire up threes. The Blazers take more three pointers after offensive rebounds than any team in the NBA. They want to win that possession battle, get those offensive boards and then just turn you over and not let you take any shots on the other end. And that was the identity of the team. And it's just, it's, it's going to be different when Dame comes back. But I, I do believe that Thiago Splitter is an NBA coach. I think obviously last year at Paris, winning the championship there with the similar brand of basketball, I think with the right personnel it can work. And it's just a matter of is Shaden Sharp everybody going to want to buy in to that style of play for 48 minutes? Because I think he can do it. And Donovan Clingan, if you have two Tomani Kamara and Donovan Klingon playing 35 minutes a night, I think mostly your defense is set. Jv. I think you're pretty good shape defensively if those two guys are on your team. And it's just a matter of getting to that brand of basketball offensively up tempo. And how Damian Lillard fits into that is going to be one of those. Yeah, everything's great right now with a bunch of young guys. But then once you bring in Damian Lillard and how, I mean he's one of the best offensive players it to ever play the NBA game. How to integrate him is going to be a whole nother test. And I do think that's like a good problem to have is that you have a guy like that talented like Damian Lillard coming into the fold. But it's going to be, it's going to be a challenge for sure. And every Head coach has. This is like just. It's a good problem to have so many like city. Sissoko didn't even play until garbage time last night and he's been starting games, you know, and it's just finally the Blazers seem to be getting healthy all at the same time. And it was only Dame and Shea that were. I mean, when was the last time that happened that there were only two guys missing because of injury? And so Tiago Splitter, the easiest schedule going forward in the NBA. They've got five of the 17 games left in the schedule against winning teams, 12 against losing teams. And all. Most of them are like the. The Sacramento Kings of the world. Right. The Brooklyn Nets. It's going to be a cupcake schedule going forward. And Tiago Splitter, I think has the tools to go on a real run here. And potentially, I mean, right now Portland is a game out of nine and what, two games out of the eight spot? Yeah. I would not be surprised if Tiago Splitter in this team takes that eight seed and they get two swipes at the apple in the plane.
- [105:08]
Justin Varior
I think they're in a good position to make the. The big boy playoffs at this point. I think you're right. I think things are coming together. We'll see about how much Denny is able to play because we got the one game, but he's been in and out with the back for a couple weeks now, so we'll see. That probably will ultimately determine it. But like warriors. Are Hoblin still waiting on Steph Clippers? Who the hell knows? On a given day, we're still waiting for the quiet thing to kind of get dropped down in the midst of like working in Garland and Mather and all these guys. And the Suns just get Booker back, but like, they're out guys all the time pretty regular as well. And so the path is there to make the playoffs. And I do think if Thiago has a nice big second half here, like over these next, what, 19 or so games, I think it will matter a lot just to finish strong, especially with new ownership coming in. I do think you want to kind of leave a good impression. So we'll see. But I do think we might be seeing some playoff games in Portland finally. Or I might be. And you'll be popping in just.
- [106:01]
Tom Haberstroh
Yeah, I'm coming in later this month, so by the way, we got to go hang out again. It just feels like it's been too long. I. I have this studio here and I've been doing for the last three years I've been mostly stuck here in my studio here in Charlotte for the games. I remember when I was offered the job, I was like, but I don't know if I can uproot my family and move to Portland just yet. And they're like, no, that's fine. It's fine. Just do it out of your house in Charlotte. And no one. I don't, I don't, I don't. I haven't met anybody who has a similar setup in, in the NBA. I just can't think of anything that is just that backwards is that I'm in Charlotte on the east coast time covering for a broadcast a team that is based in Portland. It doesn't really make much sense, but it works. And for the last three years I've had an absolute blast covering this team. But I will be doing it in the flesh end of March. So I will be around Easter. I will be out there in Portland for a few games. So we'll, we'll have to link up.
- [107:02]
Justin Varior
Are you and Tom Dundon just like taking in like Carolina Hurricanes games? You guys are hitting the links together in the meantime?
- [107:09]
Tom Haberstroh
No, two, just two Toms just hanging out in North Carolina. I think, I think I. Look, man, I think the Blazers have a ton of talent here and it's, it's great to see that Tomani Camara got his flowers last year because he's just kind of one of these guys that you can say this is a blue collar team at Donovan Cling and two, it's exciting and every night now that all these injuries are coming back, I don't know what to expect. Like what we saw from Scoot Henderson on Sunday is why I keep showing up to work is just. I love the NBA for that reason is because of just the surprise and guys can just like turn it on. And I think this is. Look, the Blazers. It's been a while, right? It's been a while for the Blazers to be back in the, in the playoffs. And I think they really. It just, I think it's going to come down to Denny. It's going to come down to Denny and how he's feeling. And he's at, at 70%. He's still an all star. It's just if they were going to have some upset potential in the first round, I'm not willing to go there quite yet. But they do have a win against OKC and they do have wins against the, some of the best teams in the league. It's going to take a healthy Denny to get there. But we'll cross that bridge when it happens. And, yeah, Rip City. I think. I think they're ready for a playoff team.
- [108:27]
Justin Varior
I think so. They're feisty. That's what I used to say about Tom Haberstrough back in the day as well, so found a good spot for it. Thank you, Tom. This has been great to see you, as always. Blazers broadcast, Yahoo, Substack, 50 other jobs, right?
- [108:46]
Tom Haberstroh
Yeah. Don't forget about Top Chef. Top Chef.
- [108:48]
Justin Varior
Top Chef. We didn't even get to Top Chef.
- [108:51]
Tom Haberstroh
Yeah. Top Top Chef is the premiere episode is dropping today on Bravo. The season 23, the MJ season in the Carolinas here in Charlotte. Lots happening in my world. Jv. So you talk about Tom's. I had Tom Colicchio on stage with Gail Simmons and Kristen Kish here in Charlotte last a week ago, and, like, talk about bucket list moments. For me, that was. I mean, that was it, jv. Like, you know me. I've been a Top Chef fan with. With Arnovitz and I, we did. We started the show, like, 10 years ago, and it's been a blast doing pack your knives. And so this year, we just started up with Sarah Bradley, who was on Top Chef season 16 and 20, so she's co hosting with me. And it's pack your knives. Go listen.
- [109:39]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
This.
- [109:40]
Tom Haberstroh
The Top Chef just started this week, so go catch it.
- [109:42]
Justin Varior
It's a season of Toms elite. Time for elite toms. There you go. All right. Thank you, buddy.
- [109:48]
Tom Haberstroh
Thanks, jv. Always a pleasure.
- [109:51]
Justin Varior
All right, that's it for JV Day. Hopefully you enjoyed many, many minutes of Blazers talk and Tatum and Spurs and all that good stuff. We'll be back on Thursday, as per usual. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production, thank you to Victoria Valencia, and thank you to Ben Cruz, and thank you to all for listening, and we'll talk to you on Thursday. See you then.